unsigned through Week 1 (thinking he would not have been ready to go anyhow) and that we'll have him back after that for the rest of the year, but on a non-guaranteed deal?
Schoen specifically said earlier today he was going to have to 'restructure' someone.
This team is going to look entirely different in 2023. I guess they wanted to start that process even sooner. I’m down. No need to pay or play vets that aren’t part of the long term solution
This wouldn't make sense if Beavers could play. Without Beavers I think it's downright lunacy.
Who the F are their ILBs?
Only thing I can think of is he requested it after a pay cut, no captain, and team not going anywhere. Maybe wants a shot to latch on to a contender? Other than that, what thevoid F?
RE: Any chance they have a wink-nudge agreement for him to remain
unsigned through Week 1 (thinking he would not have been ready to go anyhow) and that we'll have him back after that for the rest of the year, but on a non-guaranteed deal?
Schoen specifically said earlier today he was going to have to 'restructure' someone.
Why would Martinez do that for a team that is going to finish below 500 instead of going to someone that will pay him more and be more competitive
surprised and a disappointed for him things went this way
guess we know why they were playing him as much as they were in the preseason now. he didn't stand out so unfortunately maybe he just lost a step just like Connelly did after his torn ACL a few years ago.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
4m
This is a shocker on the surface but it just never felt like the new regime valued Martinez: Huge pay cut coming off injury, no longer the defensive play caller, not a captain (player vote). Tae Crowder and … Micah McFadden? Austin Calitro? to start at ILB
did not see this happening. Kenny Golladay better do something this year. I had high hopes for Martinez this year
High hopes for what exactly? I'm not being snarky honestly. You had to see he wasn't coming back in 2023.
For the last time- Golladay is uncuttable this year due to his horrible contract. He would have to embarrass the organization to be released ultimately.
He's more than content to take his medicine now and feel better later. I loved what Martinez brought to the table before injury. Kids need to step up and make the most of the opportunity
Onward, and at some point when the stink of Gettleman is off this team, upward...
This is correct. I like Martinez but Gettleman blew the cap last year. Not a healthy enough player to pay for the future. 2022 is gonna be a tough year, but these kind of moves are necessary to build for the future. Sucks.
the season-ending injury to Darrian Beavers really hurts now.
Yes it did, But think how little they valued Martinez knowing that already happened.
I may be in the minority in this, but I want to see moves that shake things up. Got to clean out the rot. Martinez wasn’t a problem child like some other chuckleheads, but that knee injury ended his value days...
@DDuggan21
·
2m
This is not a cap move, either, since the pay cut had lowered Martinez’ base salary to $1.25M. The player taking his spot on the roster, Tyre Phillips, will have a cap hit of $895K.
and the ILB coach this training camp this is not very surprising. They like some of the players they have. He also dropped some weight so maybe a little loss of power.
Beavers injury sucks but ILB is Wink's position group he made his bones with. We should trust him imv.
This is not a cap related move. His 2022 comp was renegotiated down to a guaranteed minimum. This is a roster and performance move.
correct - i think there were roster bonuses but i think this was a performance decision.
going back to those snap #'s from Wink's prior defenses maybe we should have seen this coming, he didn't have any 95% snap 'tackling machine' type LBs.
maybe he just prefers having guys like mcfadden and coughlin on the field who can shoot gaps and blitz?
This wouldn't make sense if Beavers could play. Without Beavers I think it's downright lunacy.
Who the F are their ILBs?
Only thing I can think of is he requested it after a pay cut, no captain, and team not going anywhere. Maybe wants a shot to latch on to a contender? Other than that, what thevoid F?
Jason_OTC
@Jason_OTC
·
13m
Unless Martinez requested his release or its some procedural thing I'm not seeing that is an odd one by the #giants. Basically gain no cap room. Guaranteed him 2m when he had no guarantees on his original contract this year
@DDuggan21
·
2m
This is not a cap move, either, since the pay cut had lowered Martinez’ base salary to $1.25M. The player taking his spot on the roster, Tyre Phillips, will have a cap hit of $895K.
Which, I think, means releasing Martinez will cost us about 700k in cap room.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
3m
I think there's a good chance Giants were eyeing Darrian Beavers and Tae Crowder as the starters all along. We all just read the situation wrong on Martinez this summer, at least until some of us began discussing the possibility within the past week or so.
now I get to watch my favorite player on the roster (sarcasm on) Tae Crowder get dragged down the field 5 yards every time he tried to tackle someone. On the positive side, I do like that our GM is downing all the difficult pills to swallow now rather than pushing our cap problems further down the road.
ordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
36s
Blake Martinez’s split with the Giants was a mutual decision, per source. Martinez was excused from practice Wednesday but returned today. The decision was deemed best for both parties.
@DDuggan21
·
2m
This is not a cap move, either, since the pay cut had lowered Martinez’ base salary to $1.25M. The player taking his spot on the roster, Tyre Phillips, will have a cap hit of $895K.
I've never been an optimist about quick recoveries from serious injuries.
It's one thing to get back on the field, it's another to perform up to past levels.
The Giants just think these other guys will be better players this year. For zero cap savings, you'd think Martinez would be good depth, but I guess not.
you are now. Very surprising move, I get that they want more athleticism at the LB positions, but it’s hard not to think that the D will struggle v the run.
don't think this makes us any worse. As others have said, we were already going to be bad. This is a rebuilding year. But the injury to Beavers really hurts now. At least he has a full year to recover.
ordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
36s
Blake Martinez’s split with the Giants was a mutual decision, per source. Martinez was excused from practice Wednesday but returned today. The decision was deemed best for both parties.
that's interesting. seems like maybe there was some kind of disagreement?
that was right around when captains were announced, wonder if how that was handled somehow played into Blake getting pissed?
wild guess based on only what we know - he wasn't feeling appreciated after taking a big pay cut and apparently the org agreed at least in terms of how much they thought of his performance.
@DDuggan21
·
2m
This is not a cap move, either, since the pay cut had lowered Martinez’ base salary to $1.25M. The player taking his spot on the roster, Tyre Phillips, will have a cap hit of $895K.
OK, I stand corrected.
So we save $355K against the cap. Is that correct?
...they could have cut him outright in March and saved over $8.5 million on the cap. And Martinez would have had plenty of time to catch on with another team.
...they could have cut him outright in March and saved over $8.5 million on the cap. And Martinez would have had plenty of time to catch on with another team.
Really?
RE: RE: Honestly this seems like a dick move, and kind of dumb...
...they could have cut him outright in March and saved over $8.5 million on the cap. And Martinez would have had plenty of time to catch on with another team.
Really?
He will be picked up...someone will want a tacking machine at MLB.
The question is did Martinez give up his guaranteed $1.25m
going to be a bad team this year. Too cap strapped to make significant upgrades. Too many high cost players who don’t have the talent to match. Too many new, young guys who need reps and experience. And too little talent at key positions (CB, QB, WR, maybe even EDGE if Thibs goes down). This is a purge year and a year to eat money from bad contracts. It is what it is, but the Giants were always likely to be bad.
I've read and heard people repeatedly say that Wink
...they could have cut him outright in March and saved over $8.5 million on the cap. And Martinez would have had plenty of time to catch on with another team.
That doesn’t sound right. His $30m initial signing had $19m guaranteed. DG renegotiated his deal for additional cap space last year. Can’t see how you get $8m in savings out of that.
like the kind of player who would shine more on a contending team.
Tackles are a little overrated as an NFL stat since on every single play that isn't isn't a score or a turnover I think someone gets credit for a tackle, but he seemed like he would have fit in as one of those reliable players who makes a splash play every now and then - like a Kawika Mitchell or Antonio Pierce.
On this team, sayonara. hope (for his sake) he lands somewhere he wants to be.
...they could have cut him outright in March and saved over $8.5 million on the cap. And Martinez would have had plenty of time to catch on with another team.
Focused on this right now if true. Did Schoen just miss the mark on this because that is a big financial error in judgment if so...
We root for laundry. What else are you rooting for with this team? salary cap management going forward. Schoen has concluded (perhaps) we can't compete this year so it just doesn't matter. Please god, not another year like the last 5.
...they could have cut him outright in March and saved over $8.5 million on the cap. And Martinez would have had plenty of time to catch on with another team.
That doesn’t sound right. His $30m initial signing had $19m guaranteed. DG renegotiated his deal for additional cap space last year. Can’t see how you get $8m in savings out of that.
It's true. Prior to his March 2022 restructure, he was a $14 million cap hit, and would have $5.5 million of dead money if released. Per the NY Post and other sources
Quote:
If the Giants released Martinez, they would have saved $8.5 million on the cap, but created a dead money cost of $5.5 million.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
55s
I think Wink will use four safeties on the field at the same time in some packages, so I think McKinney, Love, Belton, Jefferson and Pinnock all have roles. Jefferson and Pinnock are very good special teamers, too.
RE: RE: RE: Honestly this seems like a dick move, and kind of dumb...
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
·
1m
It adds up: Martinez was not thrilled to take a huge pay cut to stay on the roster; coming off an ACL & limited all off-season; expected to see diminished snaps in new system & no longer the defensive signal caller; and did not retain his captaincy in a vote by teammates...
As of today, I think it is Calitro, who did a nice job in the preseason.
Yep, and many of us were expecting (or wouldn't have been suprised if) Calitro was one of the cast-aways resulting from the waiver claims. Instead, a few hours later, he's our starting MLB. Crazy.
...they could have cut him outright in March and saved over $8.5 million on the cap. And Martinez would have had plenty of time to catch on with another team.
That doesn’t sound right. His $30m initial signing had $19m guaranteed. DG renegotiated his deal for additional cap space last year. Can’t see how you get $8m in savings out of that.
It's true. Prior to his March 2022 restructure, he was a $14 million cap hit, and would have $5.5 million of dead money if released. Per the NY Post and other sources
Quote:
If the Giants released Martinez, they would have saved $8.5 million on the cap, but created a dead money cost of $5.5 million.
Blake Martinez agrees to big pay cut in order to stay with Giants - ( New Window )
Yes, but he took a pay cut instead. The pay cut was down to $1.25m so that’s a savings from what he was going to be paid.
Martinez wasn't at practice yesterday. He was "excused."
Raanan says the parting was "mutual."
He didn't want to be here.
Not 100% following you. Is the idea that Martinez forced his way out? If so, fuck him.
Either way, I still think he should have been cut in March, as should have Bradberry and Shepard.
Martinez saw the writing on the wall. He wasn't part of the future. He knows he can play someplace else and get a lot of snaps.
From the Giants' perspective, if they were not going to give Martinez a lot of snaps, and he didn't want to be here, then it made more sense to move on.
This is a rebuilding ball club.
I keep saying it every year, but I still think a ton of fans haven't come to terms with what that really means.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
55s
I think Wink will use four safeties on the field at the same time in some packages, so I think McKinney, Love, Belton, Jefferson and Pinnock all have roles. Jefferson and Pinnock are very good special teamers, too.
My god Henry may well run for 300 against this D week 1
to get excited for this season and don't see any end in sight
Speak for yourself. I’m definitely excited. There is finally light at the end of the long tunnel dug by an incompetent regime. I’m not expecting a ton of wins this season and I’m ok with that. Keep the big picture in focus and you’ll be much better off
Martinez wasn't at practice yesterday. He was "excused."
Raanan says the parting was "mutual."
He didn't want to be here.
Not 100% following you. Is the idea that Martinez forced his way out? If so, fuck him.
Either way, I still think he should have been cut in March, as should have Bradberry and Shepard.
Martinez saw the writing on the wall. He wasn't part of the future. He knows he can play someplace else and get a lot of snaps.
From the Giants' perspective, if they were not going to give Martinez a lot of snaps, and he didn't want to be here, then it made more sense to move on.
This is a rebuilding ball club.
I keep saying it every year, but I still think a ton of fans haven't come to terms with what that really means.
most fans just sick of rebuilding for the last decade(sans 2016)
I am all for it heck, wiley from ravens might be more what wink is looking for anyway
team will probably need two more drafts and more efficient F/A signings before they really compete
and thats if they find LT solution at qb
to get excited for this season and don't see any end in sight
Speak for yourself. I’m definitely excited. There is finally light at the end of the long tunnel dug by an incompetent regime. I’m not expecting a ton of wins this season and I’m ok with that. Keep the big picture in focus and you’ll be much better off
Wink always has a top tier run defense. Even last year when the Ravens' pass defense fell apart.
His previous cap charge was an 8.4M salary, and 6.25M prorated bonus hit.
When he renogiated his contract in March his salary was reduced to the league veteran minum of ~1.2M (guaranteed) with up to 1M in non-guaranteed per game bonuses.
The Giants saved 7.2M on the 2022 cap. If they cut him outright they would have saved 8.4M.
In short, Schoen already saved the lion's share of the money.
The only difference between having cut him in March vs. today was ~1.2M.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
55s
I think Wink will use four safeties on the field at the same time in some packages, so I think McKinney, Love, Belton, Jefferson and Pinnock all have roles. Jefferson and Pinnock are very good special teamers, too.
My god Henry may well run for 300 against this D week 1
The Giants also don't risk paying him 1M in game bonuses, and there is probably offset language in his deal, so if he signs elsewhere the Giants will be credited his salary number on next year's cap.
Martinez wasn't at practice yesterday. He was "excused."
Raanan says the parting was "mutual."
He didn't want to be here.
Not 100% following you. Is the idea that Martinez forced his way out? If so, fuck him.
Either way, I still think he should have been cut in March, as should have Bradberry and Shepard.
Martinez saw the writing on the wall. He wasn't part of the future. He knows he can play someplace else and get a lot of snaps.
From the Giants' perspective, if they were not going to give Martinez a lot of snaps, and he didn't want to be here, then it made more sense to move on.
This is a rebuilding ball club.
I keep saying it every year, but I still think a ton of fans haven't come to terms with what that really means.
I am fine with him leaving, the reason I said it seemed like a dick move was because it was initially reported as a cost saving move.
But I thought they should have cut him in March, and saved over $8.5 on the cap. Any "writing on the wall" was apparent then too. It's no mystery that Martinez is not a good fit with Martindale's scheme.
Martinez was plenty productive but those ACL repairs take like 2 years to get right. And like Odell, it can happen more than once. I should know, I had one
two days ago we were going to give the Titans a good game, maybe even an upset, and we'd contain their run game. And then we release Martinez, a guy who didn't even play last year, and now Henry is going to trample us for 300 yards?
His previous cap charge was an 8.4M salary, and 6.25M prorated bonus hit.
When he renogiated his contract in March his salary was reduced to the league veteran minum of ~1.2M (guaranteed) with up to 1M in non-guaranteed per game bonuses.
The Giants saved 7.2M on the 2022 cap. If they cut him outright they would have saved 8.4M.
In short, Schoen already saved the lion's share of the money.
The only difference between having cut him in March vs. today was ~1.2M.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
20m
Bottom line, and I'm included in this: the Blake Martinez release was right in front of our eyes all summer, and we chose to ignore most of the signs because we figured it was just part of his rehab.
His previous cap charge was an 8.4M salary, and 6.25M prorated bonus hit.
When he renogiated his contract in March his salary was reduced to the league veteran minum of ~1.2M (guaranteed) with up to 1M in non-guaranteed per game bonuses.
The Giants saved 7.2M on the 2022 cap. If they cut him outright they would have saved 8.4M.
In short, Schoen already saved the lion's share of the money.
The only difference between having cut him in March vs. today was ~1.2M.
I am fine with him leaving, the reason I said it seemed like a dick move was because it was initially reported as a cost saving move.
But I thought they should have cut him in March, and saved over $8.5 on the cap. Any "writing on the wall" was apparent then too. It's no mystery that Martinez is not a good fit with Martindale's scheme.
The Giants reduced the 8.4M by 7.2M in March, and might have a path of save the other 1.2M as an offset next year.
The dick move would have been cutting a guy who was rehabbing his knee and offering him a tiny injury settlement.
Martinez got 1.2M, support in his rehab, and the chance at a roster spot. He's just not good enough.
But I thought they should have cut him in March, and saved over $8.5 on the cap. Any "writing on the wall" was apparent then too. It's no mystery that Martinez is not a good fit with Martindale's scheme.
Agreed. As a subscriber to the "clean house" theory, this would have been a nice start to that. And BM was coming off the injury, so who knows if he'll find his previous form.
I am fine with him leaving, the reason I said it seemed like a dick move was because it was initially reported as a cost saving move.
But I thought they should have cut him in March, and saved over $8.5 on the cap. Any "writing on the wall" was apparent then too. It's no mystery that Martinez is not a good fit with Martindale's scheme.
The Giants reduced the 8.4M by 7.2M in March, and might have a path of save the other 1.2M as an offset next year.
The dick move would have been cutting a guy who was rehabbing his knee and offering him a tiny injury settlement.
Martinez got 1.2M, support in his rehab, and the chance at a roster spot. He's just not good enough.
Gotcha. Again, based on some reports (like from ESPN) the difference between cut and restructure was closer to $3 million. But if its only $1.2 million I retract my posts.
Gotcha. Again, based on some reports (like from ESPN) the difference between cut and restructure was closer to $3 million. But if its only $1.2 million I retract my posts.
All good man! The only reason I know all this cap stuff this year is because I had a 4 month old in the spring and I was up all night reading Over the Cap.
Gotcha. Again, based on some reports (like from ESPN) the difference between cut and restructure was closer to $3 million. But if its only $1.2 million I retract my posts.
All good man! The only reason I know all this cap stuff this year is because I had a 4 month old in the spring and I was up all night reading Over the Cap.
If this is a cap move you do this much earlier than after the 53. What is the point doing it now. Yes he was not going to be here next year but why go through all this
If you were never intent on keeping him this actually looks pretty weak on the Giants behalf
Like I posted above. If they cut him in March he gets an injury settlement, but is likely on his own for rehab, and probably doesn't get invited to a camp. I actually thought it was a solid to not cut him. Same for Shepard.
a little over rated. The last three defenses he played on gave up 120, 120 and 110 yards. Last playoff game 250 and Green Bay let him go to FA.
This is not all him but he was in the middle of it. Lots of tackles are nice but what matter is where they occur. Injured on top of it. Not sure why some are complaining.
If he didn't think Martinez had it, it shouldn't be upsetting to anyone.
Not just a LB coach, but an ILB coach. (See Sy's comments in his last review about Wink and linebackers).
I can't find Sy's comments...I thought they were in that review. I just read it somewhere where Wink historically does more with less and ILB because he knows how to coach them up.
Christian can certainly speak for himself, but I'd say (and this is coming from someone who hates squandering any cap space at all) that for a team that is once again in the opening stanza of a rebuild, it may have been worth the $1.2M to ensure that there was a veteran at the position who, if nothing else, could be relied upon to be a pro as a new scheme was installed, and was likely seen as a safety net in case Wink didn't feel comfortable going with other guys at ILB.
If Wink feels more comfortable with the other guys, it may have been partially due to Martinez's presence through camp, and because Martinez also existed as a measuring stick. For better or worse, Wink likes these guys, right now, more than he liked Martinez. I don't know that you can just assume that would have been the case back in March, so you basically end up paying $1.2M in what amounts to interest charges just to buy yourself more time to figure out the roster and put in the scheme.
This seems like a rash decision. What I mean by that is not that the coaching staff all of a sudden woke up one day and decided they didn't value him highly but rather thay this situation escalated quickly. This is important because it seems like he was never shopped around. We could have gotten a pick for him.
If he didn't think Martinez had it, it shouldn't be upsetting to anyone.
Not just a LB coach, but an ILB coach. (See Sy's comments in his last review about Wink and linebackers).
I can't find Sy's comments...I thought they were in that review. I just read it somewhere where Wink historically does more with less and ILB because he knows how to coach them up.
I commented on this before and followed Wink pretty closely in camp. It was in one of the videos posted but Wink talks how he came up coaching the ILB's. He also said he still gives a little extra attention to the group and its a personal thing to him. At Defiance college (what a name) he was a LB. Started as a truck driver, hated it and here he is. Interesting guy it seems.
RE: Thisbis odd to me because of the timing and urgency.
This seems like a rash decision. What I mean by that is not that the coaching staff all of a sudden woke up one day and decided they didn't value him highly but rather thay this situation escalated quickly. This is important because it seems like he was never shopped around. We could have gotten a pick for him.
doubt anyone was giving up a pick for him but i do agree this seemed urgent. based on how they apparently valued him with this separation, had they gotten any inbound interest earlier id guess they would have taken it up or at least circled back on it in the last 24 hours.
i think we just had a situation where the player and the team viewed their commitment to each other differently.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
42m
The better way to look at this from a strictly financial sense is the Giants would have saved $8.5M on the cap if they cut him in the spring. But with the pay cut, they guaranteed him $2M ($1.25M salary, $750K signing bonus). So the overall savings now is $6.5M.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
42m
The better way to look at this from a strictly financial sense is the Giants would have saved $8.5M on the cap if they cut him in the spring. But with the pay cut, they guaranteed him $2M ($1.25M salary, $750K signing bonus). So the overall savings now is $6.5M.
whatever he signs for elsewhere will offset the guarantee and get credited back next year, which will presumably be right around 1m (and who knows maybe he hits a playing time incentive or something).
clear, I'm a big fan of Martinez. I thought his loss last year was huge.
This suggests to me, however, that Wink (who made his name as an inside linebacker coach) didn't see a good fit here.
It also seems Martinez was not happy with what likely would be a diminished role in this defense and wanted an opportunity to go elsewhere.
from an economics standpoint that makes sense. he's 28 years old and in his walk year. he needs to earn a contract for next year. if his role here was declining, and importance to the team diminishing, he's young enough that moving on for both sides makes sense.
OTC has had Martinez' money all wrong and have had it wrong all along to the tune of $6 million..if that is the case, they will not have to do too much more.
OTC has had Martinez' money all wrong and have had it wrong all along to the tune of $6 million..if that is the case, they will not have to do too much more.
Per Spotrac if BM was released after June 1:
POST-6/1 RELEASE
2022 Dead Cap: $4,000,000
2023 Dead Cap: $0
2022 Cap Savings: $3,676,470
OTC has had Martinez' money all wrong and have had it wrong all along to the tune of $6 million..if that is the case, they will not have to do too much more.
was apparently a combination of factors, namely the big salary cut and the substantially reduced playing time, that prompted Martinez to ask for his release. He obviously wants to continue playing after this year, which is his right. But he needs to play a lot to showcase his talent to the next team, including convincing them that he is fully recovered from his ACL tear. That wasn't going to happen here, so he asked for his release now. Good luck to him.
We can now count on our defense being as uncompetitive and unwatchable as our offense this season. Sweet buttery jeezus.
Blake Martinez was not even on the top six most important players on this defense. So I'm not sure how you can make that argument.
Not sure what you mean by "Important" Eric. He was the 3rd best player on Defense before he got hurt. After Leonard Williams and Bradberry. Our run defense just got a lot worse. If you want to argue "after injury" and you know for sure he wasn't going to be any good this season, that's fine and I understand. But he was a diffence maker and it looks like we'll be starting poor/unproven ILBs this year.
But you wonder if Schoen had to do it again he would have taken a chance on Nakobe Dean.
I think they were quite happy with Beavers and McFadden. The loss of Beavers looms large now.
The loss of Beavers is what makes this sting even more. Do you really not see a HUGE dropoff from Martinez as the lead ILB to Crowder? I would have loved Crowder cut, but now he is our lead ILB.
than Crowder on the roster and starting. I really don't like him and was excited for Beavers to push him out. Without Beavers, that is a scary group of ILB
two days ago we were going to give the Titans a good game, maybe even an upset, and we'd contain their run game. And then we release Martinez, a guy who didn't even play last year, and now Henry is going to trample us for 300 yards?
He was the third most important player on the last DC's defense. Not Wink's. And not now. Hell, I would say even Love has surpassed him.
The most important players on defense are:
Williams
McKinney
Jackson
Lawrence
Thibodeaux
Ojulari
Love
Even if Martinez was 100 percent, he probably would only play 50 percent of snaps at most. With the knee, it was probably less.
All of a sudden the best ILB and run stopper on last year's team (limited of course) is a waste of a spot for a grand total cap savings of 200k? C'mon. I don't care what team or scheme you have in D. You need to stop the run on early downs.
OTC has had Martinez' money all wrong and have had it wrong all along to the tune of $6 million..if that is the case, they will not have to do too much more.
OTC has this 100% accurate.
Ok, the bonus....so they are eating $6.5 mill. Whack-a-doodle.
Save $176k - may pay for a PS player or 2.
Maybe they had the discussion and that is why Martinez was pissed. Imagine taking a big paycut fir the team thinking you are still a main part of the team and then that team mentioned trading you. That could be why he left and maybe the Giants did him a solid.
All I am saying, is it doesn't seem like he was shopped at all. Maybe he was and you're right but something happened yesterday that led to his release and it happened quickly.
Between Bradberry and Martinez I don't think Schoen did the best job
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
6m
As I try to make sense of the Martinez release and the timing ... surprising they couldn't trade him. He's making the vet min. Any team that signs him will pay him the same salary. Even a 2040 conditional seventh-rounder would save the Giants $1.25M on the cap.
Maybe they had the discussion and that is why Martinez was pissed. Imagine taking a big paycut fir the team thinking you are still a main part of the team and then that team mentioned trading you. That could be why he left and maybe the Giants did him a solid.
All I am saying, is it doesn't seem like he was shopped at all. Maybe he was and you're right but something happened yesterday that led to his release and it happened quickly.
I mean, while others are calling it a “dick move”, for all we know, like you said they could have done him a solid. Maybe they could have traded him but decided to release him and let him explore his opportunities? We don’t know what the hell happened, that’s why I find it funny when clueless posters immediately jump on here (without bothering to read what has already been posted on the thread) and screaming “dick move”. It’s very possible that the opposite of that happened.
The Giants are obviously not trying to compete this year. Given his injury and contact situation it makes complete sense on both sides. He can play for a real team. We can try some guys out at his spot.
Giants management could not be more clear in their actions. Wins and losses do not matter this year. Its about building for the future.
Maybe they had the discussion and that is why Martinez was pissed. Imagine taking a big paycut fir the team thinking you are still a main part of the team and then that team mentioned trading you. That could be why he left and maybe the Giants did him a solid.
All I am saying, is it doesn't seem like he was shopped at all. Maybe he was and you're right but something happened yesterday that led to his release and it happened quickly.
I mean, while others are calling it a “dick move”, for all we know, like you said they could have done him a solid. Maybe they could have traded him but decided to release him and let him explore his opportunities? We don’t know what the hell happened, that’s why I find it funny when clueless posters immediately jump on here (without bothering to read what has already been posted on the thread) and screaming “dick move”. It’s very possible that the opposite of that happened.
It's definitely odd. A guy like Martinez, if they knew they were cutting him, would have been an early cut as a sign of respect to catch on with a team earlier than the rest. With this being such a late release and with the issue yesterday, something happened.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
In my case I'd rather not be relying on Tae Crowder as the MIKE linebacker.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
more about cutting a starter on 9/1. Seems that is what a bad team with no plan does. Giants fans are just shell-shocked its happening again.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
more about cutting a starter on 9/1. Seems that is what a bad team with no plan does. Giants fans are just shell-shocked its happening again.
I think that's it too. If he didn't fit long term, why not cut or trade him earlier? Why did he make the 53 only to get cut today?
It seems like there's a plan and then this happens and you think...this is the master plan to rebuild the franchise?
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
more about cutting a starter on 9/1. Seems that is what a bad team with no plan does. Giants fans are just shell-shocked its happening again.
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.” -Mike Tyson
I encourage you to work up the energy to read this thread. There’s plenty of info on why their plans may have changed. Or don’t. And just continue to sound uneducated on the matter. Your choice.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
In my case I'd rather not be relying on Tae Crowder as the MIKE linebacker.
Wink's D doesn't necessarily need a traditional mike.
Patrick Queen led the Ravens ILB's in snaps the last 2 years and he played 75% as a rookie and 80% in his second year - and he is not a traditional Mike the way Martinez was. He's more of a weak side linebacker.
that's why he has safeties wear the green dot. mckinney, love, and jefferson are probably the depth chart for that responsibility this year with Belton next up if they somehow need to go that far down the list.
nyg and Martinez seemingly wanted to find a way to make things work but after the preseason that just wasn't the way things went. Martinez wasn't happy and the giants were also apparently willing on their end to go separate ways.
early on, took a pay cut, wasn’t voted captain by his team mates and the final straw was when he started practicing for week 1 and saw the game plan and a very limited role.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
more about cutting a starter on 9/1. Seems that is what a bad team with no plan does. Giants fans are just shell-shocked its happening again.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
42m
The better way to look at this from a strictly financial sense is the Giants would have saved $8.5M on the cap if they cut him in the spring. But with the pay cut, they guaranteed him $2M ($1.25M salary, $750K signing bonus). So the overall savings now is $6.5M.
So basically Schoen took a 2 million dollar gamble that Blake would recover from his injury and become a contributor. He lost. Not the end of the world.
Decision. I can wait until more facts come out but this appears to save no money. So that’s my starting premise.
They cut their starting ILB in September with no clear upgrade on the roster. And very limited ability to add talent at this point (roq smith trade?)
Again. Creating a hole with no clear financial advantage (Logan Ryan, bradberry. And no real plan for the replacement.
But if they didn’t like Blake or he wasn’t a fit why would you carry him til September and massively downgrade your ILB on the eve of opening day.
And for those claims that ILB is irrelevant in this scheme note that the ravens have invested heavily over the years. Murderin ray, Scott mosely, Queen. That’s kinda horseshit
Anyway. We shall see what info comes out. There really isn’t information right now. Just opinion and speculation ((which is often conflated)
I like Blake. He was really good in 20. I’m not claiming he is great still but at this moment his replacement is not even close to his level of play and there appears to be no real savings.
I like to think these guys have a plan but there has been a few cases now it feels like they don’t.
Might have taken an honest appraisal of the situation and concluded in light of the injuries and deficiencies on the roster that the season isn't going to go well and are embracing a tank job so they can get their QB next year. I don't think that is the case but it 8s not an unreasonable hypothesis. Question is would the Mara's and the fans tolerate it?
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
42m
The better way to look at this from a strictly financial sense is the Giants would have saved $8.5M on the cap if they cut him in the spring. But with the pay cut, they guaranteed him $2M ($1.25M salary, $750K signing bonus). So the overall savings now is $6.5M.
So basically Schoen took a 2 million dollar gamble that Blake would recover from his injury and become a contributor. He lost. Not the end of the world.
it will likely end being 2m minus whatever he makes elsewhere, which at the vets minimum should be right around $1m (a little more if he signs ahead of week 1, a little less if he signs after).
Decision. I can wait until more facts come out but this appears to save no money. So that’s my starting premise.
They cut their starting ILB in September with no clear upgrade on the roster. And very limited ability to add talent at this point (roq smith trade?)
Again. Creating a hole with no clear financial advantage (Logan Ryan, bradberry. And no real plan for the replacement.
But if they didn’t like Blake or he wasn’t a fit why would you carry him til September and massively downgrade your ILB on the eve of opening day.
And for those claims that ILB is irrelevant in this scheme note that the ravens have invested heavily over the years. Murderin ray, Scott mosely, Queen. That’s kinda horseshit
Anyway. We shall see what info comes out. There really isn’t information right now. Just opinion and speculation ((which is often conflated)
I like Blake. He was really good in 20. I’m not claiming he is great still but at this moment his replacement is not even close to his level of play and there appears to be no real savings.
I like to think these guys have a plan but there has been a few cases now it feels like they don’t.
you are right that with both ryan and martinez they essentially had no financial reason to move on from them. but with that being the case it would seem clear that either:
a) the players didn't want to be here
b) the team didn't want the players here
c) some combination of the 2
sometimes things just dont work out and sometimes it takes a period of evaluation to come to that conclusion. i dont think they brought martinez back expecting to cut him and i dont think martinez came back expecting to be cut.
And he worked hard, but he just didn’t give you anything special; he couldn’t pass rush well ; he didn’t create turnovers; he just wasn’t anything special .
And he worked hard, but he just didn’t give you anything special; he couldn’t pass rush well ; he didn’t create turnovers; he just wasn’t anything special .
you are right that with both ryan and martinez they essentially had no financial reason to move on from them. but with that being the case it would seem clear that either:
a) the players didn't want to be here
b) the team didn't want the players here
c) some combination of the 2
sometimes things just dont work out and sometimes it takes a period of evaluation to come to that conclusion. i dont think they brought martinez back expecting to cut him and i dont think martinez came back expecting to be cut.
That’s fair. And I am sure there are some details we don’t know or will never know. But the net result is the team is not better , but actually worse both on the feild and in the cap. And there is not an ascending player they created more reps for by moving him out
The bradberry situation was completely bungled but at least there was a financial upside. And they had the opportunity to add talent after they created the hole
I’m still on board with shoen et Al. Part of this thing was if you are going with the “young fresh mind” you live with the growing pains when they make mistakes
and Martinez, a useful player for sure, will probably be past his peak by the time we're really good, if not completely finished. If he doesn't fit, he doesn't fit.
We saw what year one after an ACL did to a guy 3 years younger and insanely more physically gifted.
Martinez relied more on his instincts than physical talent so it's really not a stretch to think that a LB who uses a lot of lateral movement and isn't that physically gifted is going to be a liability this year. Maybe next year is better for him or maybe he never bounces back to pre-injury form.
It's the right move for this team.
I get it...MLB like Blake are going the way of FBs
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
I continue to carry a sad face at some of the posters on this board. These hot takes continue to soak up the cringe. We were suppose to carry an already slow linebacker recovering from an ACL injury that normally takes a full season to regain some form of explosion and speed? Got it BBI.
The Giants should have cut him in the offseason or traded him.
Quote:
If the Giants cut Martinez at the start of the offseason, they would have created $8.5 million in cap savings. But the $2 million Martinez was guaranteed as part of the pay cut means the net savings is $6.5 million now.
Quote:
It seems strange the Giants couldn’t trade Martinez. His salary was a hair over the veteran’s minimum, so any team that signs Martinez now will pay the same amount. Even if the Giants dealt him for a conditional pick in 2025, a trade would have removed his $1.25 million salary from their cap, which is valuable at a time when the team will be forced to restructure a contract(s) to sneak under the cap.
Inside info that this truly was a mutual thing with Martinez and Giants. His agent and Giants had been talking and just didn't make sense for Blake to be here.
Schrager did say that the Giants LB's are barren right now BUT their offense will be scoring points .
I still believe where this team is heading and I can say without doubt, Leonard Williams deal will get done to help the cap..
Later, if Barkley is doing well he will get dealt to put us in even stronger position for the draft. Think Dickerson to Colts type deal where a contender gets a superstar.
The Giants are obviously not trying to compete this .
I just don’t agree with this sentiment, which gets repeated often here. It might just be semantics, “ They aren’t mortgaging any future assets to win 6 games instead of 4, but they will try to win every game they play “
Fans can blow off “in the present moments,”the players and coaches just don’t do that
I agree with the sentiments that Martinez is expendable in the big
scheme of things......but I keep thinking of that 1990 season goal line stand against Denver.....Gary Reasons and Steve DeOssie- stout middle line backers.
I know the game has changed to an extent, but when you need that big stand.....Is Tae Crowder going to be stout enough to smash the running back on these type of situations? The Hit! - ( New Window )
I think his ACL slowed him up too much to fit into Wink's D
Maybe Wink figures having a slow veteran is no better than having a fast young player who knows less about the game but can be schooled as the season moves along.
Inside info that this truly was a mutual thing with Martinez and Giants. His agent and Giants had been talking and just didn't make sense for Blake to be here.
Schrager did say that the Giants LB's are barren right now BUT their offense will be scoring points .
I still believe where this team is heading and I can say without doubt, Leonard Williams deal will get done to help the cap..
Later, if Barkley is doing well he will get dealt to put us in even stronger position for the draft. Think Dickerson to Colts type deal where a contender gets a superstar.
Barkley wouldn’t get back a fifth round pick, even if he had a sensational year. Barkley isn’t Dickerson by a mile and this isn’t the 80s NFL
Inside info that this truly was a mutual thing with Martinez and Giants. His agent and Giants had been talking and just didn't make sense for Blake to be here.
Schrager did say that the Giants LB's are barren right now BUT their offense will be scoring points .
I still believe where this team is heading and I can say without doubt, Leonard Williams deal will get done to help the cap..
Later, if Barkley is doing well he will get dealt to put us in even stronger position for the draft. Think Dickerson to Colts type deal where a contender gets a superstar.
Barkley wouldn’t get back a fifth round pick, even if he had a sensational year. Barkley isn’t Dickerson by a mile and this isn’t the 80s NFL
Dear god, I swear some of you just argue to be argumentative. I said like a Dickerson trade not he is Dickerson. If Barkley is showing off big time early a SB contender will be more than happy to trade for him to take their run at a SB(teams like TB, LAR, LAC, KC etc) and forego a pick (higher than RD 5) to take their shot this year... Regardless any pick helps us next year as Barkley isn't coming back here- you don't build up around a RB (a mistake we all saw in 2018) but teams on the cusp take a superstar RB or potential thereof to round out their run!
and we thought he wasn’t important enough to keep around against his wishes. The Giants are going to try and be an appealing destination, if they get a reputation of being jerks to their players, it might be harder to recruit the guy you need in FA. The new regime was probably thinking the long game and Martinez was not worth getting into a public spat over.
The Packers let Martinez go without any sort of fight whatsoever. It is what it is, Martinez is not a good coverage linebacker and that is a trait that Wink likes to have in his LB's. I still don't understand why Tae Crowder is on the team, either. But he's younger and still on his first contract so that may play a part. Schoen's hands are tied probably worse than almost any GM in the league. These are business decisions because of the constraints left by DG's total annihilation of their salary cap.
Inside info that this truly was a mutual thing with Martinez and Giants. His agent and Giants had been talking and just didn't make sense for Blake to be here.
Schrager did say that the Giants LB's are barren right now BUT their offense will be scoring points .
I still believe where this team is heading and I can say without doubt, Leonard Williams deal will get done to help the cap..
Later, if Barkley is doing well he will get dealt to put us in even stronger position for the draft. Think Dickerson to Colts type deal where a contender gets a superstar.
Barkley wouldn’t get back a fifth round pick, even if he had a sensational year. Barkley isn’t Dickerson by a mile and this isn’t the 80s NFL
Dear god, I swear some of you just argue to be argumentative. I said like a Dickerson trade not he is Dickerson. If Barkley is showing off big time early a SB contender will be more than happy to trade for him to take their run at a SB(teams like TB, LAR, LAC, KC etc) and forego a pick (higher than RD 5) to take their shot this year... Regardless any pick helps us next year as Barkley isn't coming back here- you don't build up around a RB (a mistake we all saw in 2018) but teams on the cusp take a superstar RB or potential thereof to round out their run!
Wait, argumentative to be argumentative?
You called Barkley a “superstar” when there is literally no evidence of that. The range of picks he would get would probably be one pick between a fourth and seventh round pick given his contract situation.
Dickerson got back 3 first round and 3 second rounds.
This would nothing like a Dickerson trade in any shape or form. If you are going to post an analogy, post one that is analogous.
The Packers let Martinez go without any sort of fight whatsoever. It is what it is, Martinez is not a good coverage linebacker and that is a trait that Wink likes to have in his LB's. I still don't understand why Tae Crowder is on the team, either. But he's younger and still on his first contract so that may play a part. Schoen's hands are tied probably worse than almost any GM in the league. These are business decisions because of the constraints left by DG's total annihilation of their salary cap.
He does? Wink's LBs tend to be average to below average in coverage, he tends to use defensive backs to cover the short zones.
I am fine with him leaving, the reason I said it seemed like a dick move was because it was initially reported as a cost saving move.
But I thought they should have cut him in March, and saved over $8.5 on the cap. Any "writing on the wall" was apparent then too. It's no mystery that Martinez is not a good fit with Martindale's scheme.
The Giants reduced the 8.4M by 7.2M in March, and might have a path of save the other 1.2M as an offset next year.
The dick move would have been cutting a guy who was rehabbing his knee and offering him a tiny injury settlement.
Martinez got 1.2M, support in his rehab, and the chance at a roster spot. He's just not good enough.
Gotcha. Again, based on some reports (like from ESPN) the difference between cut and restructure was closer to $3 million. But if its only $1.2 million I retract my posts.
Thanks for making this clear christian.
Sb - I just knew something didn't smell right with earlier post about leaving $8M on the table. No way does a GM with his eye on the cap allow that differential to occur...
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
No amount of saying "The NFL is a win now business" changes the reality that this roster was a toxic waste dump in need of significant effort to overhaul.
The Maras have not distinguished themselves in recent years, but if they don't give Shoen time to fix this, then the Giants are doomed to not win for a while anyway.
Inside info that this truly was a mutual thing with Martinez and Giants. His agent and Giants had been talking and just didn't make sense for Blake to be here.
Schrager did say that the Giants LB's are barren right now BUT their offense will be scoring points .
I still believe where this team is heading and I can say without doubt, Leonard Williams deal will get done to help the cap..
Later, if Barkley is doing well he will get dealt to put us in even stronger position for the draft. Think Dickerson to Colts type deal where a contender gets a superstar.
Barkley wouldn’t get back a fifth round pick, even if he had a sensational year. Barkley isn’t Dickerson by a mile and this isn’t the 80s NFL
Howie Roseman would somehow get a 2nd or 3rd for him.
RE: I agree with the sentiments that Martinez is expendable in the big
scheme of things......but I keep thinking of that 1990 season goal line stand against Denver.....Gary Reasons and Steve DeOssie- stout middle line backers.
I know the game has changed to an extent, but when you need that big stand.....Is Tae Crowder going to be stout enough to smash the running back on these type of situations? The Hit! - ( New Window )
Well, we probably aren't starting 10-0 this year either, so ...
The barren desert known the Linebacker unit of the NYG
scheme of things......but I keep thinking of that 1990 season goal line stand against Denver.....Gary Reasons and Steve DeOssie- stout middle line backers.
I know the game has changed to an extent, but when you need that big stand.....Is Tae Crowder going to be stout enough to smash the running back on these type of situations? The Hit! - ( New Window )
Well, we probably aren't starting 10-0 this year either, so ...
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
All the people claiming patience and dreaming of 2025 relavence will turn on the GM, coach, and everyone else like a rabid dog if the team starts 1-6.
This moment right now is the most goodwill shoen and sable will ever have
Don't presume to speak for others. I won't be turning on Schoen and Daboll. This is a rebuild that requires at least 1 season's worth of a bloodletting, beginning with this season. This is a TERRIBLE squad that won't win more than 4 or 5 games, if they're lucky.
All good man! The only reason I know all this cap stuff this year is because I had a 4 month old in the spring and I was up all night reading Over the Cap.
Hey, hey, congrats christian. So now that 4-month old is eight months old and you'll be up even more to get mo mo smarter than most of the rest of us! (:
Martinez had an additional up to 1M in game bonuses on his 2022 contract. And his salary was guaranteed.
That's a penalty for a team trading for him. Anyone who wants him and plans to play him was better off waiting for him to be cut, and paying him the on a non-guaranteed minimum.
But above all else, seems like the Giants just wanted him out of their hair ASAP.
To me, screams Drew Wilkins and Wink Martindale. Perhaps also ILB coach John Egorugwu who was an assistant in BAL with Wink so he's familiar with them. But maybe I'm wrong.
due to lack of fit in the new scheme, the knee, and probably over the pay cut, and he wanted out while the team was happy to oblige him. Shit happens and wish him well.
the Raven’s defense the last few years could see that Martinez isn’t a good fit. Especially coming off an ACL when he’s even less athletic. Time to move forward
by another team soon. He's a player and a leader. The Giants were no longer the fit for him and he realized it. That doesn't mean he won't be a fit elsewhere.
Well, OurLads and ESPN have two radically different ones. OurLads has Leonard Williams as a DE with Ellis and Lawrence as the DTs, Thibodeaux as the rush linebacker (Ward as backup) with McFadden and Crowder as the starting inside linebackers (McFadden as the MIKE, Crowder as the WILL) and Ojulari as the SAM linebacker.
ESPN has the defensive line in a 3-4 base with Ojulari as the LDE, Lawrence as the NT, and Williams as the RDE. Thibodeaux is a WILL linebacker (analogous with ROLB?), with Crowder as the SAM linebacker and Coughlin and McFadden as the inside linebackers.
Lose every game but develop talent and a dominant unit along the way, then grab the perfect qb next April.
I don’t know how to do that nor do I think it’s possible to develop players while losing 13 games, but here we are.
If it was 2016 fine. Five straight depressingly awful seasons and we have to stare down yet another one before Labor Day even hits.
I don’t know…maybe I’m overstating the Martinez loss and we can still compete this year if everything breaks right, or maybe we we’re cooked with or without Martinez. I just want fun football again. It’s been so long.
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
All the people claiming patience and dreaming of 2025 relavence will turn on the GM, coach, and everyone else like a rabid dog if the team starts 1-6.
This moment right now is the most goodwill shoen and sable will ever have
If you're looking for instant gratification, you might want to look elsewhere, because you won't find it with the Giants this year. The team had to be torn down to its roots and rebuilt from the ground up. That wasn't going to be easy or painless, nor would it be accomplished quickly...certainly not in one offseason. You can either accept that, or you can continue throwing tantrums. The choice is yours.
RE: RE: RE: The barren desert known the Linebacker unit of the NYG
has continued on far too long. Have had some flashes of decency at ILB from time to time but seems like it's always a free agent signing at best.
Nothing home grown, nothing impactful, nothing consistent year to year.
nothing...
If nothing else, I expect that Ojulari and Thibs are going to change that.
Yep, although was speaking more on the inside...
.
The timing of cutting him was a bit strange though...after all of the maneuvers with cutting players, picking up a few players that were waived, putting some players on IR,
re-signing a few players, then we will cut Martinez?
Just a bit strange to me, something definitely went down behind closed doors...and it is not helping the cap situation at all as well.
From what I read, only saving about 200K.
Lets watch this LB crew this season, should be fun...
due to lack of fit in the new scheme, the knee, and probably over the pay cut, and he wanted out while the team was happy to oblige him. Shit happens and wish him well.
This. Not because I know but who posted it. Two people I'd pay attention to here John C and Rico.
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
All the people claiming patience and dreaming of 2025 relavence will turn on the GM, coach, and everyone else like a rabid dog if the team starts 1-6.
This moment right now is the most goodwill shoen and sable will ever have
If you're looking for instant gratification, you might want to look elsewhere, because you won't find it with the Giants this year. The team had to be torn down to its roots and rebuilt from the ground up. That wasn't going to be easy or painless, nor would it be accomplished quickly...certainly not in one offseason. You can either accept that, or you can continue throwing tantrums. The choice is yours.
Not sure if you missed the point or were to easily triggered by a perceived tantrum. It’s a fact that we have blown through coaches. I think that indicates a lack of patience. Can we agree on that? What exactly makes you think that Will be different now.
As far as seeking Instant gratification (what a lovely sound bite. Cheers to you) you presume to know what would make me happy. On the off chance you are not omnipotent I can spell it out for you. I would be gratified to see competent competitive football every week. I would be gratified to have 1 or less blow out loss. I would be gratified to not have a 3 game losing streak. I would be gratified to watch relevant football in December
And you know what? Those are reasonable expectations, If we have the right coach that is. The leaugue is built on parity and talent is relatively equivalent outside the elite. The distinguishing factor is coaching (and health). So I’m hoping we have the right guy.
Those are my expectations. I won’t presume to tell you what to expect or how to feel about it because that’s ignorant as fuck.
To say that the league runs on parity may be true, but the way that works is that it assumes a baseline level of competency along the way that the Giants have failed to reach.
The Giants are not mediocre such that one or two high draft picks, and/or an experienced career assistant getting his first bite at the apple will pay immediate dividends in the form of W/L record.
They are a bad team, limited, and incomplete football roster who's best players are kids and young veterans who have yet to learn how to win in the NFL.
The most recent history is the most important history when evaluating a player . Martinez was not playing well at all when he got hurt . The “mutual agreement” parting of the ways is interesting . And as for as him not being voted for captain , is the insinuation that the vote was rigged or something ?
One of the criticisms about him from Packerland was that he was tackle crazy . Consequently lost his run fit . Not sure if any of that was true . But I do know Crowder loses his run fit regularly so it’s not like he’s a rock to build on .
RE: 7 of the last 8 years, this team has failed to get to 7 wins
To say that the league runs on parity may be true, but the way that works is that it assumes a baseline level of competency along the way that the Giants have failed to reach.
The Giants are not mediocre such that one or two high draft picks, and/or an experienced career assistant getting his first bite at the apple will pay immediate dividends in the form of W/L record.
They are a bad team, limited, and incomplete football roster who's best players are kids and young veterans who have yet to learn how to win in the NFL.
They are what the record says they are. A bad team until proven otherwise.
When I say built for parity the NFL loves having a huge swath of teams at around .500 and mathematically alive in December. So the improvement I’m looking for is getting out of the gutter and being average.
I personally think that coaching will in fact make a huge difference this year. I’m not delusional. I think 7-9 wins reasonable. I do think there is more talent then last 2 years and the offensive coaching is infinitely better. The schedule is more favorable then it has been.
RE: RE: RE: The “by the time we are good” argument
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
All the people claiming patience and dreaming of 2025 relavence will turn on the GM, coach, and everyone else like a rabid dog if the team starts 1-6.
This moment right now is the most goodwill shoen and sable will ever have
If you're looking for instant gratification, you might want to look elsewhere, because you won't find it with the Giants this year. The team had to be torn down to its roots and rebuilt from the ground up. That wasn't going to be easy or painless, nor would it be accomplished quickly...certainly not in one offseason. You can either accept that, or you can continue throwing tantrums. The choice is yours.
Not sure if you missed the point or were to easily triggered by a perceived tantrum. It’s a fact that we have blown through coaches. I think that indicates a lack of patience. Can we agree on that? What exactly makes you think that Will be different now.
As far as seeking Instant gratification (what a lovely sound bite. Cheers to you) you presume to know what would make me happy. On the off chance you are not omnipotent I can spell it out for you. I would be gratified to see competent competitive football every week. I would be gratified to have 1 or less blow out loss. I would be gratified to not have a 3 game losing streak. I would be gratified to watch relevant football in December
And you know what? Those are reasonable expectations, If we have the right coach that is. The leaugue is built on parity and talent is relatively equivalent outside the elite. The distinguishing factor is coaching (and health). So I’m hoping we have the right guy.
Those are my expectations. I won’t presume to tell you what to expect or how to feel about it because that’s ignorant as fuck.
The previous five years are in no way comparable to what's transpired this year. They have no bearing on it whatsoever. Until this year...until the team had fallen so far down they'd become the laughing stock of the league...there was no imperative to dramatically change the way they did business. The past five years were characterized by poor drafting and profligate, injudicious free agent signings. There was little rhyme or reason to roster construction - no doubt due to the disconnect between the FO and the coaching staff. Clearly, this has not been the case this year.
Instant gratification is not a sound bite. It's obviously what you seek. Everyone wants to win. No one enjoys losing. But the reality is that the gross mismanagement of the previous regime left the new regime with a team that was woefully devoid of talent on both sides of the ball, and with precious little resources to remedy that. You don't have to be happy about it - I'm certainly not - but you do have to accept it because it's the truth. To deny that is to live in a dream world. The Giants, as constructed, are simply not a good team now, and no amount of wishing is going to change that anytime soon. Your expectations are as decidedly unrealistic as your attitude is juvenile.
First and foremost, the new regime had to get its financial house in order, and that's still a work in progress. Second, they had to assemble a competent coaching staff to properly assess the talent on-hand, identify strengths and weaknesses, and do whatever they could with their limited resources to make upgrades. In addition, that staff had to figure out how best to use what talent they had, offensively and defensively. These tasks are best described as monumental. Will mistakes be made along the way? Quite probably. No one is perfect. But if the Giants can avoid the fatal, catastrophic mistakes, they should be good-to-go in a year or two (or three). Again, that's reality.
So, yes, I counsel patience. You may scoff at the idea, but what other choice is there? I think ownership understands that. I think they understand that drastic changes had to be made, and that the road back to respectability was going to be a long and rocky one. What I don't understand is why some fans fail to see that?
Their story hasn’t been written yet. Save all the defeatist and realist bullshit. How this group of men and women prepare, perform, and respond to adversity will determine whether they’re a bad, improving, or surprising team.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The “by the time we are good” argument
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
All the people claiming patience and dreaming of 2025 relavence will turn on the GM, coach, and everyone else like a rabid dog if the team starts 1-6.
This moment right now is the most goodwill shoen and sable will ever have
The previous five years are in no way comparable to what's transpired this year. They have no bearing on it whatsoever. Until this year...until the team had fallen so far down they'd become the laughing stock of the league...there was no imperative to dramatically change the way they did business. The past five years were characterized by poor drafting and profligate, injudicious free agent signings. There was little rhyme or reason to roster construction - no doubt due to the disconnect between the FO and the coaching staff. Clearly, this has not been the case this year.
Instant gratification is not a sound bite. It's obviously what you seek. Everyone wants to win. No one enjoys losing. But the reality is that the gross mismanagement of the previous regime left the new regime with a team that was woefully devoid of talent on both sides of the ball, and with precious little resources to remedy that. You don't have to be happy about it - I'm certainly not - but you do have to accept it because it's the truth. To deny that is to live in a dream world. The Giants, as constructed, are simply not a good team now, and no amount of wishing is going to change that anytime soon. Your expectations are as decidedly unrealistic as your attitude is juvenile.
First and foremost, the new regime had to get its financial house in order, and that's still a work in progress. Second, they had to assemble a competent coaching staff to properly assess the talent on-hand, identify strengths and weaknesses, and do whatever they could with their limited resources to make upgrades. In addition, that staff had to figure out how best to use what talent they had, offensively and defensively. These tasks are best described as monumental. Will mistakes be made along the way? Quite probably. No one is perfect. But if the Giants can avoid the fatal, catastrophic mistakes, they should be good-to-go in a year or two (or three). Again, that's reality.
So, yes, I counsel patience. You may scoff at the idea, but what other choice is there? I think ownership understands that. I think they understand that drastic changes had to be made, and that the road back to respectability was going to be a long and rocky one. What I don't understand is why some fans fail to see that?
I don’t scoff at your patient approach. You can root however you want. I’m not egotistical enough to think that people that don’t agree with my OPINION are wrong. You should reflect on that.
You don’t understand why fans won’t accept 3 year road to respectability? Do you watch the rest of the league? Fans see at least one worst to first EVERY year. I will explicitly say I don’t think the team is going to do that lest you draw that conclusion. Oh, and we haven’t had a coach last 3 years in a while. You keep repeating this is not a good team. I never claimed it was. I said that with good coaching they should be an AVERAGE team. Not a gutter team. Not a good team. Fortunately the coaches know they get a little slack in year 1 but if they win 4 games the seat is already warm in year 2.
I disagree that the roster is bottom 5, while I fully realize there are tons of holes and little depth. Again I see this a issues all teams deal with to some degree. Again I will be explicit so you don’t misconstrue. Not a good roster. Not a top half roster. Not bottom 5. A shade on the lower end of average
Their story hasn’t been written yet. Save all the defeatist and realist bullshit. How this group of men and women prepare, perform, and respond to adversity will determine whether they’re a bad, improving, or surprising team.
Amen. I’m disappointed in BBI the last few years with how it all but eats the posters alive who merely allow for the possibility of anything good to happen. Save me the all knowing who insist that young unproven teams never exceed expectations. It literally happens every year in the nfl. Bad teams turn good all the time and many times all but a few see it coming. Of course there are exceptions where some talent deficient teams don’t stand a chance, and maybe this is yet another one, but you can’t predict whether this OL will definitely suck or the front seven won’t be close to elite. And it could happen. Will it? Who the hell knows, odds are against it, but it’s the nfl and the ny giants. It’s supposed to be fun for the fans. If the fans wants to err on the side of hope don’t be a dick and rub their noses in it come January when the team underwhelms. It’s as if some here took it personally or blame the fans for bad play.
Remember 1997. There's always hope. Shit no one saw 1984 coming either.
For the most part, coaching is the great equalizer in the NFL. More than any other pro sport. I’m not going to run Daboll out on a rail if the team is god awful in 22 but I’m sure as fuck going to be concerned. He parcells went 3-12-1 and turned into a legend but even he said he made mistakes in year one.
We need to see progress. There’s no such thing as a redshirt year in the nfl. That doesn’t mean the giants need to go 500 or better or win x amount of games but they do need to show growth.
Recall a poster who used to regale us with his NYG wisdom
Good player. Hate to see him go but hard to argue with the move coming off the injury.
There’s a new sheriff in town...
Schoen specifically said earlier today he was going to have to 'restructure' someone.
Who the F are their ILBs?
Only thing I can think of is he requested it after a pay cut, no captain, and team not going anywhere. Maybe wants a shot to latch on to a contender? Other than that, what thevoid F?
Schoen specifically said earlier today he was going to have to 'restructure' someone.
Why would Martinez do that for a team that is going to finish below 500 instead of going to someone that will pay him more and be more competitive
We will get run over by good running teams
This can’t be true right
@art_stapleton
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1m
If I understand the contract restructure properly, Martinez has a $4 million dead cap hit that was sunk cost.
By releasing Martinez prior to Week 1, the Giants save ~$3.5 million in cap space.
Thus my tweets from the other night regarding his future.
@DDuggan21
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4m
This is a shocker on the surface but it just never felt like the new regime valued Martinez: Huge pay cut coming off injury, no longer the defensive play caller, not a captain (player vote). Tae Crowder and … Micah McFadden? Austin Calitro? to start at ILB
No. We are the same, basically at the bottom.
Onward, and at some point when the stink of Gettleman is off this team, upward...
@art_stapleton
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1m
If I understand the contract restructure properly, Martinez has a $4 million dead cap hit that was sunk cost.
By releasing Martinez prior to Week 1, the Giants save ~$3.5 million in cap space.
Thus my tweets from the other night regarding his future.
All dead cap is a sunk cost. Well if this is true then OTC isn’t close to getting this correct.
I think Golladay is a goner next year. Seems pretty certain.
High hopes for what exactly? I'm not being snarky honestly. You had to see he wasn't coming back in 2023.
For the last time- Golladay is uncuttable this year due to his horrible contract. He would have to embarrass the organization to be released ultimately.
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Our team got worse.
No. We are the same, basically at the bottom.
Onward, and at some point when the stink of Gettleman is off this team, upward...
This is correct. I like Martinez but Gettleman blew the cap last year. Not a healthy enough player to pay for the future. 2022 is gonna be a tough year, but these kind of moves are necessary to build for the future. Sucks.
Yes it did, But think how little they valued Martinez knowing that already happened.
I may be in the minority in this, but I want to see moves that shake things up. Got to clean out the rot. Martinez wasn’t a problem child like some other chuckleheads, but that knee injury ended his value days...
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2m
This is not a cap move, either, since the pay cut had lowered Martinez’ base salary to $1.25M. The player taking his spot on the roster, Tyre Phillips, will have a cap hit of $895K.
Beavers injury sucks but ILB is Wink's position group he made his bones with. We should trust him imv.
correct - i think there were roster bonuses but i think this was a performance decision.
going back to those snap #'s from Wink's prior defenses maybe we should have seen this coming, he didn't have any 95% snap 'tackling machine' type LBs.
maybe he just prefers having guys like mcfadden and coughlin on the field who can shoot gaps and blitz?
Who the F are their ILBs?
Only thing I can think of is he requested it after a pay cut, no captain, and team not going anywhere. Maybe wants a shot to latch on to a contender? Other than that, what thevoid F?
They need the cap space. We're over the cap.
Again, this is not a contending team.
@Jason_OTC
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13m
Unless Martinez requested his release or its some procedural thing I'm not seeing that is an odd one by the #giants. Basically gain no cap room. Guaranteed him 2m when he had no guarantees on his original contract this year
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2m
This is not a cap move, either, since the pay cut had lowered Martinez’ base salary to $1.25M. The player taking his spot on the roster, Tyre Phillips, will have a cap hit of $895K.
Which, I think, means releasing Martinez will cost us about 700k in cap room.
Giants release Blake Martinez to make room for Tyre Phillips - ( New Window )
Very good observation.
@art_stapleton
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3m
I think there's a good chance Giants were eyeing Darrian Beavers and Tae Crowder as the starters all along. We all just read the situation wrong on Martinez this summer, at least until some of us began discussing the possibility within the past week or so.
Beavers ACL hurt.
Very good observation...
Lol, exactly. This team sucks. Might as well cut the dead weight now.
Wouldn't be surprised to see him back after Week 1, especially if there's an injury.
He has a pretty good chance of finding a spot on another team, though.
@JordanRaanan
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36s
Blake Martinez’s split with the Giants was a mutual decision, per source. Martinez was excused from practice Wednesday but returned today. The decision was deemed best for both parties.
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2m
This is not a cap move, either, since the pay cut had lowered Martinez’ base salary to $1.25M. The player taking his spot on the roster, Tyre Phillips, will have a cap hit of $895K.
But how much cap space do we gain or lose?
It's one thing to get back on the field, it's another to perform up to past levels.
The Giants just think these other guys will be better players this year. For zero cap savings, you'd think Martinez would be good depth, but I guess not.
@JordanRaanan
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36s
Blake Martinez’s split with the Giants was a mutual decision, per source. Martinez was excused from practice Wednesday but returned today. The decision was deemed best for both parties.
that's interesting. seems like maybe there was some kind of disagreement?
that was right around when captains were announced, wonder if how that was handled somehow played into Blake getting pissed?
wild guess based on only what we know - he wasn't feeling appreciated after taking a big pay cut and apparently the org agreed at least in terms of how much they thought of his performance.
Tweet - ( New Window )
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@DDuggan21
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2m
This is not a cap move, either, since the pay cut had lowered Martinez’ base salary to $1.25M. The player taking his spot on the roster, Tyre Phillips, will have a cap hit of $895K.
OK, I stand corrected.
So we save $355K against the cap. Is that correct?
Not sure what Art is saying. But, If it is $3.5 mill that is nice and Slayton is next.
McFadden is a possibility but who knows.
Really?
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...they could have cut him outright in March and saved over $8.5 million on the cap. And Martinez would have had plenty of time to catch on with another team.
Really?
He will be picked up...someone will want a tacking machine at MLB.
seemed like Sy thought calitro did some nice things between the tackles
well people wanted deadwood gone and get younger
here we are
That doesn’t sound right. His $30m initial signing had $19m guaranteed. DG renegotiated his deal for additional cap space last year. Can’t see how you get $8m in savings out of that.
Tackles are a little overrated as an NFL stat since on every single play that isn't isn't a score or a turnover I think someone gets credit for a tackle, but he seemed like he would have fit in as one of those reliable players who makes a splash play every now and then - like a Kawika Mitchell or Antonio Pierce.
On this team, sayonara. hope (for his sake) he lands somewhere he wants to be.
Focused on this right now if true. Did Schoen just miss the mark on this because that is a big financial error in judgment if so...
He was great pick up. One DG got right...
He would be the starter right now.
As of today, I think it is Calitro, who did a nice job in the preseason.
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...they could have cut him outright in March and saved over $8.5 million on the cap. And Martinez would have had plenty of time to catch on with another team.
That doesn’t sound right. His $30m initial signing had $19m guaranteed. DG renegotiated his deal for additional cap space last year. Can’t see how you get $8m in savings out of that.
It's true. Prior to his March 2022 restructure, he was a $14 million cap hit, and would have $5.5 million of dead money if released. Per the NY Post and other sources
Blake Martinez agrees to big pay cut in order to stay with Giants - ( New Window )
Raanan says the parting was "mutual."
He didn't want to be here.
He would be the starter right now.
As of today, I think it is Calitro, who did a nice job in the preseason.
i think Schneier's point about Jefferson is a good one and it's going to be a committee approach - which is more typical of what Wink did in BAL.
Steady rotation of Mcfadden, Coughlin, Calitro, Jefferson depending on pass rush / coverage / run situations.
Blake likely was never going to have his prior 95%+ snaps role in Wink's D.
@art_stapleton
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55s
I think Wink will use four safeties on the field at the same time in some packages, so I think McKinney, Love, Belton, Jefferson and Pinnock all have roles. Jefferson and Pinnock are very good special teamers, too.
He will be picked up...someone will want a tacking machine at MLB.
Agreed. Dallas was apparently very interested in Roquan Smith. I could see them turning their attention to Martinez...
@giantswfan
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1m
It adds up: Martinez was not thrilled to take a huge pay cut to stay on the roster; coming off an ACL & limited all off-season; expected to see diminished snaps in new system & no longer the defensive signal caller; and did not retain his captaincy in a vote by teammates...
He would be the starter right now.
As of today, I think it is Calitro, who did a nice job in the preseason.
Yep, and many of us were expecting (or wouldn't have been suprised if) Calitro was one of the cast-aways resulting from the waiver claims. Instead, a few hours later, he's our starting MLB. Crazy.
that would be my guess. it was a day after they announced the captains.
he took a big pay cut to stick around and meanwhile they didn't seem to see him in the way he saw himself.
that seems pretty mutual.
Raanan says the parting was "mutual."
He didn't want to be here.
Kind of strange if true. Maybe he was butthurt he wasn't one of the 30 or so captains, or foreshadowing.
Raanan says the parting was "mutual."
He didn't want to be here.
Not 100% following you. Is the idea that Martinez forced his way out? If so, fuck him.
Either way, I still think he should have been cut in March, as should have Bradberry and Shepard.
I don't agree. I think it's going to be interesting, competitive football compared to the last couple of years, even if our record isn't that great.
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In comment 15800585 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
...they could have cut him outright in March and saved over $8.5 million on the cap. And Martinez would have had plenty of time to catch on with another team.
That doesn’t sound right. His $30m initial signing had $19m guaranteed. DG renegotiated his deal for additional cap space last year. Can’t see how you get $8m in savings out of that.
It's true. Prior to his March 2022 restructure, he was a $14 million cap hit, and would have $5.5 million of dead money if released. Per the NY Post and other sources
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If the Giants released Martinez, they would have saved $8.5 million on the cap, but created a dead money cost of $5.5 million.
Blake Martinez agrees to big pay cut in order to stay with Giants - ( New Window )
Yes, but he took a pay cut instead. The pay cut was down to $1.25m so that’s a savings from what he was going to be paid.
Hope he finds what he's looking for.
Wish Blake well. Seemed like a good dude.
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Martinez wasn't at practice yesterday. He was "excused."
Raanan says the parting was "mutual."
He didn't want to be here.
Not 100% following you. Is the idea that Martinez forced his way out? If so, fuck him.
Either way, I still think he should have been cut in March, as should have Bradberry and Shepard.
Martinez saw the writing on the wall. He wasn't part of the future. He knows he can play someplace else and get a lot of snaps.
From the Giants' perspective, if they were not going to give Martinez a lot of snaps, and he didn't want to be here, then it made more sense to move on.
This is a rebuilding ball club.
I keep saying it every year, but I still think a ton of fans haven't come to terms with what that really means.
@art_stapleton
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55s
I think Wink will use four safeties on the field at the same time in some packages, so I think McKinney, Love, Belton, Jefferson and Pinnock all have roles. Jefferson and Pinnock are very good special teamers, too.
My god Henry may well run for 300 against this D week 1
Speak for yourself. I’m definitely excited. There is finally light at the end of the long tunnel dug by an incompetent regime. I’m not expecting a ton of wins this season and I’m ok with that. Keep the big picture in focus and you’ll be much better off
This suggests to me, however, that Wink (who made his name as an inside linebacker coach) didn't see a good fit here.
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In comment 15800661 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Martinez wasn't at practice yesterday. He was "excused."
Raanan says the parting was "mutual."
He didn't want to be here.
Not 100% following you. Is the idea that Martinez forced his way out? If so, fuck him.
Either way, I still think he should have been cut in March, as should have Bradberry and Shepard.
Martinez saw the writing on the wall. He wasn't part of the future. He knows he can play someplace else and get a lot of snaps.
From the Giants' perspective, if they were not going to give Martinez a lot of snaps, and he didn't want to be here, then it made more sense to move on.
This is a rebuilding ball club.
I keep saying it every year, but I still think a ton of fans haven't come to terms with what that really means.
most fans just sick of rebuilding for the last decade(sans 2016)
I am all for it heck, wiley from ravens might be more what wink is looking for anyway
team will probably need two more drafts and more efficient F/A signings before they really compete
and thats if they find LT solution at qb
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to get excited for this season and don't see any end in sight
Speak for yourself. I’m definitely excited. There is finally light at the end of the long tunnel dug by an incompetent regime. I’m not expecting a ton of wins this season and I’m ok with that. Keep the big picture in focus and you’ll be much better off
Wink always has a top tier run defense. Even last year when the Ravens' pass defense fell apart.
His previous cap charge was an 8.4M salary, and 6.25M prorated bonus hit.
When he renogiated his contract in March his salary was reduced to the league veteran minum of ~1.2M (guaranteed) with up to 1M in non-guaranteed per game bonuses.
The Giants saved 7.2M on the 2022 cap. If they cut him outright they would have saved 8.4M.
In short, Schoen already saved the lion's share of the money.
The only difference between having cut him in March vs. today was ~1.2M.
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Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
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55s
I think Wink will use four safeties on the field at the same time in some packages, so I think McKinney, Love, Belton, Jefferson and Pinnock all have roles. Jefferson and Pinnock are very good special teamers, too.
My god Henry may well run for 300 against this D week 1
You wanna lay down some cash on that?
Everything that happened from 2012-2021 doesn't count.
There is no credit for those botched years.
We're back at zero.
That's the way this works.
It's stunning how many people can't grasp that.
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In comment 15800661 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Martinez wasn't at practice yesterday. He was "excused."
Raanan says the parting was "mutual."
He didn't want to be here.
Not 100% following you. Is the idea that Martinez forced his way out? If so, fuck him.
Either way, I still think he should have been cut in March, as should have Bradberry and Shepard.
Martinez saw the writing on the wall. He wasn't part of the future. He knows he can play someplace else and get a lot of snaps.
From the Giants' perspective, if they were not going to give Martinez a lot of snaps, and he didn't want to be here, then it made more sense to move on.
This is a rebuilding ball club.
I keep saying it every year, but I still think a ton of fans haven't come to terms with what that really means.
I am fine with him leaving, the reason I said it seemed like a dick move was because it was initially reported as a cost saving move.
But I thought they should have cut him in March, and saved over $8.5 on the cap. Any "writing on the wall" was apparent then too. It's no mystery that Martinez is not a good fit with Martindale's scheme.
Actually when you think about what the injury did to Saquon, you can understand how Blake could be a couple steps slow this season.
Posters continue to amuse.
:mad:
His previous cap charge was an 8.4M salary, and 6.25M prorated bonus hit.
When he renogiated his contract in March his salary was reduced to the league veteran minum of ~1.2M (guaranteed) with up to 1M in non-guaranteed per game bonuses.
The Giants saved 7.2M on the 2022 cap. If they cut him outright they would have saved 8.4M.
In short, Schoen already saved the lion's share of the money.
The only difference between having cut him in March vs. today was ~1.2M.
Thanks Christian, I stand corrected. ESPN reported that they saved less than $6 million by restructuring.
ESPN on the restructure - ( New Window )
@art_stapleton
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20m
Bottom line, and I'm included in this: the Blake Martinez release was right in front of our eyes all summer, and we chose to ignore most of the signs because we figured it was just part of his rehab.
His previous cap charge was an 8.4M salary, and 6.25M prorated bonus hit.
When he renogiated his contract in March his salary was reduced to the league veteran minum of ~1.2M (guaranteed) with up to 1M in non-guaranteed per game bonuses.
The Giants saved 7.2M on the 2022 cap. If they cut him outright they would have saved 8.4M.
In short, Schoen already saved the lion's share of the money.
The only difference between having cut him in March vs. today was ~1.2M.
Exactly. Thank you.
But I thought they should have cut him in March, and saved over $8.5 on the cap. Any "writing on the wall" was apparent then too. It's no mystery that Martinez is not a good fit with Martindale's scheme.
The Giants reduced the 8.4M by 7.2M in March, and might have a path of save the other 1.2M as an offset next year.
The dick move would have been cutting a guy who was rehabbing his knee and offering him a tiny injury settlement.
Martinez got 1.2M, support in his rehab, and the chance at a roster spot. He's just not good enough.
But I thought they should have cut him in March, and saved over $8.5 on the cap. Any "writing on the wall" was apparent then too. It's no mystery that Martinez is not a good fit with Martindale's scheme.
Agreed. As a subscriber to the "clean house" theory, this would have been a nice start to that. And BM was coming off the injury, so who knows if he'll find his previous form.
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I am fine with him leaving, the reason I said it seemed like a dick move was because it was initially reported as a cost saving move.
But I thought they should have cut him in March, and saved over $8.5 on the cap. Any "writing on the wall" was apparent then too. It's no mystery that Martinez is not a good fit with Martindale's scheme.
The Giants reduced the 8.4M by 7.2M in March, and might have a path of save the other 1.2M as an offset next year.
The dick move would have been cutting a guy who was rehabbing his knee and offering him a tiny injury settlement.
Martinez got 1.2M, support in his rehab, and the chance at a roster spot. He's just not good enough.
Gotcha. Again, based on some reports (like from ESPN) the difference between cut and restructure was closer to $3 million. But if its only $1.2 million I retract my posts.
All good man! The only reason I know all this cap stuff this year is because I had a 4 month old in the spring and I was up all night reading Over the Cap.
Sunk cost and they might get it back next year. And brick-in-out with a replacement it would have been like a net 500K savings tops I think?
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Gotcha. Again, based on some reports (like from ESPN) the difference between cut and restructure was closer to $3 million. But if its only $1.2 million I retract my posts.
All good man! The only reason I know all this cap stuff this year is because I had a 4 month old in the spring and I was up all night reading Over the Cap.
LOL, that's hilarious
If you were never intent on keeping him this actually looks pretty weak on the Giants behalf
Because they cut a guy coming off a major injury that didn’t fit the scheme they will run?
Alrighty then! Great point!
Even when said player asks to be released?
He did us well here. Wish him well.
You should probably put in the effort to read the entire thread. It was a mutual parting.
Or we can just call it a dick move…
Blake Martinez was not even on the top six most important players on this defense. So I'm not sure how you can make that argument.
If he didn't think Martinez had it, it shouldn't be upsetting to anyone.
This is not all him but he was in the middle of it. Lots of tackles are nice but what matter is where they occur. Injured on top of it. Not sure why some are complaining.
If he didn't think Martinez had it, it shouldn't be upsetting to anyone.
Not just a LB coach, but an ILB coach. (See Sy's comments in his last review about Wink and linebackers).
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to cut a guy who agreed to a massive pay cut.
You should probably put in the effort to read the entire thread. It was a mutual parting.
Or we can just call it a dick move…
Quote from Martinez?
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But Wink is a LB coach by trade.
If he didn't think Martinez had it, it shouldn't be upsetting to anyone.
Not just a LB coach, but an ILB coach. (See Sy's comments in his last review about Wink and linebackers).
I can't find Sy's comments...I thought they were in that review. I just read it somewhere where Wink historically does more with less and ILB because he knows how to coach them up.
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In comment 15800794 Spiciest Memelord said:
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to cut a guy who agreed to a massive pay cut.
You should probably put in the effort to read the entire thread. It was a mutual parting.
Or we can just call it a dick move…
Quote from Martinez?
No. That’s a quote from me
Christian can certainly speak for himself, but I'd say (and this is coming from someone who hates squandering any cap space at all) that for a team that is once again in the opening stanza of a rebuild, it may have been worth the $1.2M to ensure that there was a veteran at the position who, if nothing else, could be relied upon to be a pro as a new scheme was installed, and was likely seen as a safety net in case Wink didn't feel comfortable going with other guys at ILB.
If Wink feels more comfortable with the other guys, it may have been partially due to Martinez's presence through camp, and because Martinez also existed as a measuring stick. For better or worse, Wink likes these guys, right now, more than he liked Martinez. I don't know that you can just assume that would have been the case back in March, so you basically end up paying $1.2M in what amounts to interest charges just to buy yourself more time to figure out the roster and put in the scheme.
It's capex for the rebuild.
Tomon Fox is an OLB not ILB. McFadden, Calitro, Coughlin, and Brown will compete for playing time opposite Crowder.
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In comment 15800839 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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But Wink is a LB coach by trade.
If he didn't think Martinez had it, it shouldn't be upsetting to anyone.
Not just a LB coach, but an ILB coach. (See Sy's comments in his last review about Wink and linebackers).
I can't find Sy's comments...I thought they were in that review. I just read it somewhere where Wink historically does more with less and ILB because he knows how to coach them up.
I commented on this before and followed Wink pretty closely in camp. It was in one of the videos posted but Wink talks how he came up coaching the ILB's. He also said he still gives a little extra attention to the group and its a personal thing to him. At Defiance college (what a name) he was a LB. Started as a truck driver, hated it and here he is. Interesting guy it seems.
doubt anyone was giving up a pick for him but i do agree this seemed urgent. based on how they apparently valued him with this separation, had they gotten any inbound interest earlier id guess they would have taken it up or at least circled back on it in the last 24 hours.
i think we just had a situation where the player and the team viewed their commitment to each other differently.
@DDuggan21
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42m
The better way to look at this from a strictly financial sense is the Giants would have saved $8.5M on the cap if they cut him in the spring. But with the pay cut, they guaranteed him $2M ($1.25M salary, $750K signing bonus). So the overall savings now is $6.5M.
This suggests to me, however, that Wink (who made his name as an inside linebacker coach) didn't see a good fit here.
It also seems Martinez was not happy with what likely would be a diminished role in this defense and wanted an opportunity to go elsewhere.
@DDuggan21
·
42m
The better way to look at this from a strictly financial sense is the Giants would have saved $8.5M on the cap if they cut him in the spring. But with the pay cut, they guaranteed him $2M ($1.25M salary, $750K signing bonus). So the overall savings now is $6.5M.
whatever he signs for elsewhere will offset the guarantee and get credited back next year, which will presumably be right around 1m (and who knows maybe he hits a playing time incentive or something).
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clear, I'm a big fan of Martinez. I thought his loss last year was huge.
This suggests to me, however, that Wink (who made his name as an inside linebacker coach) didn't see a good fit here.
It also seems Martinez was not happy with what likely would be a diminished role in this defense and wanted an opportunity to go elsewhere.
from an economics standpoint that makes sense. he's 28 years old and in his walk year. he needs to earn a contract for next year. if his role here was declining, and importance to the team diminishing, he's young enough that moving on for both sides makes sense.
Per Spotrac if BM was released after June 1:
POST-6/1 RELEASE
2022 Dead Cap: $4,000,000
2023 Dead Cap: $0
2022 Cap Savings: $3,676,470
I think they were quite happy with Beavers and McFadden. The loss of Beavers looms large now.
OTC has this 100% accurate.
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We can now count on our defense being as uncompetitive and unwatchable as our offense this season. Sweet buttery jeezus.
Blake Martinez was not even on the top six most important players on this defense. So I'm not sure how you can make that argument.
Not sure what you mean by "Important" Eric. He was the 3rd best player on Defense before he got hurt. After Leonard Williams and Bradberry. Our run defense just got a lot worse. If you want to argue "after injury" and you know for sure he wasn't going to be any good this season, that's fine and I understand. But he was a diffence maker and it looks like we'll be starting poor/unproven ILBs this year.
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But you wonder if Schoen had to do it again he would have taken a chance on Nakobe Dean.
I think they were quite happy with Beavers and McFadden. The loss of Beavers looms large now.
Posters continue to amuse.
👍
The most important players on defense are:
Williams
McKinney
Jackson
Lawrence
Thibodeaux
Ojulari
Love
Even if Martinez was 100 percent, he probably would only play 50 percent of snaps at most. With the knee, it was probably less.
If he wasn't cut, would you bet on him having more snaps than Dane Belton in 4 weeks?
The most important players on defense are:
Williams
McKinney
Jackson
Lawrence
Thibodeaux
Ojulari
Love
Even if Martinez was 100 percent, he probably would only play 50 percent of snaps at most. With the knee, it was probably less.
All of a sudden the best ILB and run stopper on last year's team (limited of course) is a waste of a spot for a grand total cap savings of 200k? C'mon. I don't care what team or scheme you have in D. You need to stop the run on early downs.
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OTC has had Martinez' money all wrong and have had it wrong all along to the tune of $6 million..if that is the case, they will not have to do too much more.
OTC has this 100% accurate.
Ok, the bonus....so they are eating $6.5 mill. Whack-a-doodle.
Save $176k - may pay for a PS player or 2.
Look at his coaching history (what positions he coached and where).
I’ll bet Schoen never even considered this!
Or maybe he did?
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Even if it was just a 7th
I’ll bet Schoen never even considered this!
Or maybe he did?
Maybe they had the discussion and that is why Martinez was pissed. Imagine taking a big paycut fir the team thinking you are still a main part of the team and then that team mentioned trading you. That could be why he left and maybe the Giants did him a solid.
All I am saying, is it doesn't seem like he was shopped at all. Maybe he was and you're right but something happened yesterday that led to his release and it happened quickly.
But DG sure did leave a mess behind. Unfortunately those above still remain.
As a fan I hope we make progress this year, only time will tell.
@DDuggan21
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6m
As I try to make sense of the Martinez release and the timing ... surprising they couldn't trade him. He's making the vet min. Any team that signs him will pay him the same salary. Even a 2040 conditional seventh-rounder would save the Giants $1.25M on the cap.
Yup. Something is fishy.
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In comment 15801028 robbieballs2003 said:
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Even if it was just a 7th
I’ll bet Schoen never even considered this!
Or maybe he did?
Maybe they had the discussion and that is why Martinez was pissed. Imagine taking a big paycut fir the team thinking you are still a main part of the team and then that team mentioned trading you. That could be why he left and maybe the Giants did him a solid.
All I am saying, is it doesn't seem like he was shopped at all. Maybe he was and you're right but something happened yesterday that led to his release and it happened quickly.
I mean, while others are calling it a “dick move”, for all we know, like you said they could have done him a solid. Maybe they could have traded him but decided to release him and let him explore his opportunities? We don’t know what the hell happened, that’s why I find it funny when clueless posters immediately jump on here (without bothering to read what has already been posted on the thread) and screaming “dick move”. It’s very possible that the opposite of that happened.
Giants management could not be more clear in their actions. Wins and losses do not matter this year. Its about building for the future.
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In comment 15801047 BigBlueShock said:
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In comment 15801028 robbieballs2003 said:
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Even if it was just a 7th
I’ll bet Schoen never even considered this!
Or maybe he did?
Maybe they had the discussion and that is why Martinez was pissed. Imagine taking a big paycut fir the team thinking you are still a main part of the team and then that team mentioned trading you. That could be why he left and maybe the Giants did him a solid.
All I am saying, is it doesn't seem like he was shopped at all. Maybe he was and you're right but something happened yesterday that led to his release and it happened quickly.
I mean, while others are calling it a “dick move”, for all we know, like you said they could have done him a solid. Maybe they could have traded him but decided to release him and let him explore his opportunities? We don’t know what the hell happened, that’s why I find it funny when clueless posters immediately jump on here (without bothering to read what has already been posted on the thread) and screaming “dick move”. It’s very possible that the opposite of that happened.
It's definitely odd. A guy like Martinez, if they knew they were cutting him, would have been an early cut as a sign of respect to catch on with a team earlier than the rest. With this being such a late release and with the issue yesterday, something happened.
This is what I don't get.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
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You would think we let Dick Butkus go.
This is what I don't get.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
In my case I'd rather not be relying on Tae Crowder as the MIKE linebacker.
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You would think we let Dick Butkus go.
This is what I don't get.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
more about cutting a starter on 9/1. Seems that is what a bad team with no plan does. Giants fans are just shell-shocked its happening again.
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In comment 15801069 bw in dc said:
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You would think we let Dick Butkus go.
This is what I don't get.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
more about cutting a starter on 9/1. Seems that is what a bad team with no plan does. Giants fans are just shell-shocked its happening again.
I think that's it too. If he didn't fit long term, why not cut or trade him earlier? Why did he make the 53 only to get cut today?
It seems like there's a plan and then this happens and you think...this is the master plan to rebuild the franchise?
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In comment 15801069 bw in dc said:
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You would think we let Dick Butkus go.
This is what I don't get.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
more about cutting a starter on 9/1. Seems that is what a bad team with no plan does. Giants fans are just shell-shocked its happening again.
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.” -Mike Tyson
I encourage you to work up the energy to read this thread. There’s plenty of info on why their plans may have changed. Or don’t. And just continue to sound uneducated on the matter. Your choice.
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In comment 15801069 bw in dc said:
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You would think we let Dick Butkus go.
This is what I don't get.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
In my case I'd rather not be relying on Tae Crowder as the MIKE linebacker.
Wink's D doesn't necessarily need a traditional mike.
Patrick Queen led the Ravens ILB's in snaps the last 2 years and he played 75% as a rookie and 80% in his second year - and he is not a traditional Mike the way Martinez was. He's more of a weak side linebacker.
that's why he has safeties wear the green dot. mckinney, love, and jefferson are probably the depth chart for that responsibility this year with Belton next up if they somehow need to go that far down the list.
nyg and Martinez seemingly wanted to find a way to make things work but after the preseason that just wasn't the way things went. Martinez wasn't happy and the giants were also apparently willing on their end to go separate ways.
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In comment 15801069 bw in dc said:
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You would think we let Dick Butkus go.
This is what I don't get.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
more about cutting a starter on 9/1. Seems that is what a bad team with no plan does. Giants fans are just shell-shocked its happening again.
Shut up.. what the fuck dude.
@DDuggan21
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42m
The better way to look at this from a strictly financial sense is the Giants would have saved $8.5M on the cap if they cut him in the spring. But with the pay cut, they guaranteed him $2M ($1.25M salary, $750K signing bonus). So the overall savings now is $6.5M.
So basically Schoen took a 2 million dollar gamble that Blake would recover from his injury and become a contributor. He lost. Not the end of the world.
Gone.
They cut their starting ILB in September with no clear upgrade on the roster. And very limited ability to add talent at this point (roq smith trade?)
Again. Creating a hole with no clear financial advantage (Logan Ryan, bradberry. And no real plan for the replacement.
But if they didn’t like Blake or he wasn’t a fit why would you carry him til September and massively downgrade your ILB on the eve of opening day.
And for those claims that ILB is irrelevant in this scheme note that the ravens have invested heavily over the years. Murderin ray, Scott mosely, Queen. That’s kinda horseshit
Anyway. We shall see what info comes out. There really isn’t information right now. Just opinion and speculation ((which is often conflated)
I like Blake. He was really good in 20. I’m not claiming he is great still but at this moment his replacement is not even close to his level of play and there appears to be no real savings.
I like to think these guys have a plan but there has been a few cases now it feels like they don’t.
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Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
42m
The better way to look at this from a strictly financial sense is the Giants would have saved $8.5M on the cap if they cut him in the spring. But with the pay cut, they guaranteed him $2M ($1.25M salary, $750K signing bonus). So the overall savings now is $6.5M.
So basically Schoen took a 2 million dollar gamble that Blake would recover from his injury and become a contributor. He lost. Not the end of the world.
it will likely end being 2m minus whatever he makes elsewhere, which at the vets minimum should be right around $1m (a little more if he signs ahead of week 1, a little less if he signs after).
They cut their starting ILB in September with no clear upgrade on the roster. And very limited ability to add talent at this point (roq smith trade?)
Again. Creating a hole with no clear financial advantage (Logan Ryan, bradberry. And no real plan for the replacement.
But if they didn’t like Blake or he wasn’t a fit why would you carry him til September and massively downgrade your ILB on the eve of opening day.
And for those claims that ILB is irrelevant in this scheme note that the ravens have invested heavily over the years. Murderin ray, Scott mosely, Queen. That’s kinda horseshit
Anyway. We shall see what info comes out. There really isn’t information right now. Just opinion and speculation ((which is often conflated)
I like Blake. He was really good in 20. I’m not claiming he is great still but at this moment his replacement is not even close to his level of play and there appears to be no real savings.
I like to think these guys have a plan but there has been a few cases now it feels like they don’t.
you are right that with both ryan and martinez they essentially had no financial reason to move on from them. but with that being the case it would seem clear that either:
a) the players didn't want to be here
b) the team didn't want the players here
c) some combination of the 2
sometimes things just dont work out and sometimes it takes a period of evaluation to come to that conclusion. i dont think they brought martinez back expecting to cut him and i dont think martinez came back expecting to be cut.
Who is they
That's about right. A solid NFL inside LB.
BFD.
Took them until September 1st? ;)
Were we looking for a trade partner this summer? I mean, if there was such disdain, I hope they were looking for some comp...
Heard the same, like over the top how disliked he was. With that said he initiated the divorce.
you are right that with both ryan and martinez they essentially had no financial reason to move on from them. but with that being the case it would seem clear that either:
a) the players didn't want to be here
b) the team didn't want the players here
c) some combination of the 2
sometimes things just dont work out and sometimes it takes a period of evaluation to come to that conclusion. i dont think they brought martinez back expecting to cut him and i dont think martinez came back expecting to be cut.
That’s fair. And I am sure there are some details we don’t know or will never know. But the net result is the team is not better , but actually worse both on the feild and in the cap. And there is not an ascending player they created more reps for by moving him out
The bradberry situation was completely bungled but at least there was a financial upside. And they had the opportunity to add talent after they created the hole
I’m still on board with shoen et Al. Part of this thing was if you are going with the “young fresh mind” you live with the growing pains when they make mistakes
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
All the people claiming patience and dreaming of 2025 relavence will turn on the GM, coach, and everyone else like a rabid dog if the team starts 1-6.
This moment right now is the most goodwill shoen and sable will ever have
Martinez relied more on his instincts than physical talent so it's really not a stretch to think that a LB who uses a lot of lateral movement and isn't that physically gifted is going to be a liability this year. Maybe next year is better for him or maybe he never bounces back to pre-injury form.
It's the right move for this team.
I was hoping Crowder to get cut....
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You would think we let Dick Butkus go.
This is what I don't get.
Again, I liked Martinez, but I could swear that 99 percent of Giants fans were telling everyone just a few months ago that they didn't care if the whole team was gutted.
But now Martinez is some kind of untouchable on a rebuilding team that no one expects to contend?
I continue to carry a sad face at some of the posters on this board. These hot takes continue to soak up the cringe. We were suppose to carry an already slow linebacker recovering from an ACL injury that normally takes a full season to regain some form of explosion and speed? Got it BBI.
https://theathletic.com/3560391/2022/09/01/giants-release-blake-martinez-as-the-new-regime-continues-to-clean-house/ - ( New Window )
Thought something was up when he was not one of the 10 captains.
Schrager did say that the Giants LB's are barren right now BUT their offense will be scoring points .
I still believe where this team is heading and I can say without doubt, Leonard Williams deal will get done to help the cap..
Later, if Barkley is doing well he will get dealt to put us in even stronger position for the draft. Think Dickerson to Colts type deal where a contender gets a superstar.
Exactly. Talk about a little over reaction.
Lol
I just don’t agree with this sentiment, which gets repeated often here. It might just be semantics, “ They aren’t mortgaging any future assets to win 6 games instead of 4, but they will try to win every game they play “
Fans can blow off “in the present moments,”the players and coaches just don’t do that
I know the game has changed to an extent, but when you need that big stand.....Is Tae Crowder going to be stout enough to smash the running back on these type of situations?
The Hit! - ( New Window )
Schrager did say that the Giants LB's are barren right now BUT their offense will be scoring points .
I still believe where this team is heading and I can say without doubt, Leonard Williams deal will get done to help the cap..
Later, if Barkley is doing well he will get dealt to put us in even stronger position for the draft. Think Dickerson to Colts type deal where a contender gets a superstar.
Barkley wouldn’t get back a fifth round pick, even if he had a sensational year. Barkley isn’t Dickerson by a mile and this isn’t the 80s NFL
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Inside info that this truly was a mutual thing with Martinez and Giants. His agent and Giants had been talking and just didn't make sense for Blake to be here.
Schrager did say that the Giants LB's are barren right now BUT their offense will be scoring points .
I still believe where this team is heading and I can say without doubt, Leonard Williams deal will get done to help the cap..
Later, if Barkley is doing well he will get dealt to put us in even stronger position for the draft. Think Dickerson to Colts type deal where a contender gets a superstar.
Barkley wouldn’t get back a fifth round pick, even if he had a sensational year. Barkley isn’t Dickerson by a mile and this isn’t the 80s NFL
Dear god, I swear some of you just argue to be argumentative. I said like a Dickerson trade not he is Dickerson. If Barkley is showing off big time early a SB contender will be more than happy to trade for him to take their run at a SB(teams like TB, LAR, LAC, KC etc) and forego a pick (higher than RD 5) to take their shot this year... Regardless any pick helps us next year as Barkley isn't coming back here- you don't build up around a RB (a mistake we all saw in 2018) but teams on the cusp take a superstar RB or potential thereof to round out their run!
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In comment 15801317 jvm52106 said:
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Inside info that this truly was a mutual thing with Martinez and Giants. His agent and Giants had been talking and just didn't make sense for Blake to be here.
Schrager did say that the Giants LB's are barren right now BUT their offense will be scoring points .
I still believe where this team is heading and I can say without doubt, Leonard Williams deal will get done to help the cap..
Later, if Barkley is doing well he will get dealt to put us in even stronger position for the draft. Think Dickerson to Colts type deal where a contender gets a superstar.
Barkley wouldn’t get back a fifth round pick, even if he had a sensational year. Barkley isn’t Dickerson by a mile and this isn’t the 80s NFL
Dear god, I swear some of you just argue to be argumentative. I said like a Dickerson trade not he is Dickerson. If Barkley is showing off big time early a SB contender will be more than happy to trade for him to take their run at a SB(teams like TB, LAR, LAC, KC etc) and forego a pick (higher than RD 5) to take their shot this year... Regardless any pick helps us next year as Barkley isn't coming back here- you don't build up around a RB (a mistake we all saw in 2018) but teams on the cusp take a superstar RB or potential thereof to round out their run!
Wait, argumentative to be argumentative?
You called Barkley a “superstar” when there is literally no evidence of that. The range of picks he would get would probably be one pick between a fourth and seventh round pick given his contract situation.
Dickerson got back 3 first round and 3 second rounds.
This would nothing like a Dickerson trade in any shape or form. If you are going to post an analogy, post one that is analogous.
He does? Wink's LBs tend to be average to below average in coverage, he tends to use defensive backs to cover the short zones.
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In comment 15800733 sb from NYT Forum said:
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I am fine with him leaving, the reason I said it seemed like a dick move was because it was initially reported as a cost saving move.
But I thought they should have cut him in March, and saved over $8.5 on the cap. Any "writing on the wall" was apparent then too. It's no mystery that Martinez is not a good fit with Martindale's scheme.
The Giants reduced the 8.4M by 7.2M in March, and might have a path of save the other 1.2M as an offset next year.
The dick move would have been cutting a guy who was rehabbing his knee and offering him a tiny injury settlement.
Martinez got 1.2M, support in his rehab, and the chance at a roster spot. He's just not good enough.
Gotcha. Again, based on some reports (like from ESPN) the difference between cut and restructure was closer to $3 million. But if its only $1.2 million I retract my posts.
Thanks for making this clear christian.
Sb - I just knew something didn't smell right with earlier post about leaving $8M on the table. No way does a GM with his eye on the cap allow that differential to occur...
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
No amount of saying "The NFL is a win now business" changes the reality that this roster was a toxic waste dump in need of significant effort to overhaul.
The Maras have not distinguished themselves in recent years, but if they don't give Shoen time to fix this, then the Giants are doomed to not win for a while anyway.
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Inside info that this truly was a mutual thing with Martinez and Giants. His agent and Giants had been talking and just didn't make sense for Blake to be here.
Schrager did say that the Giants LB's are barren right now BUT their offense will be scoring points .
I still believe where this team is heading and I can say without doubt, Leonard Williams deal will get done to help the cap..
Later, if Barkley is doing well he will get dealt to put us in even stronger position for the draft. Think Dickerson to Colts type deal where a contender gets a superstar.
Barkley wouldn’t get back a fifth round pick, even if he had a sensational year. Barkley isn’t Dickerson by a mile and this isn’t the 80s NFL
Howie Roseman would somehow get a 2nd or 3rd for him.
I know the game has changed to an extent, but when you need that big stand.....Is Tae Crowder going to be stout enough to smash the running back on these type of situations? The Hit! - ( New Window )
Well, we probably aren't starting 10-0 this year either, so ...
Nothing home grown, nothing impactful, nothing consistent year to year.
nothing...
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scheme of things......but I keep thinking of that 1990 season goal line stand against Denver.....Gary Reasons and Steve DeOssie- stout middle line backers.
I know the game has changed to an extent, but when you need that big stand.....Is Tae Crowder going to be stout enough to smash the running back on these type of situations? The Hit! - ( New Window )
Well, we probably aren't starting 10-0 this year either, so ...
Not to hurt your point but that was Denver 1989.
Our LBs and CBs are paper thin. Gettleman truly was a disaster for Giants football.
Nothing home grown, nothing impactful, nothing consistent year to year.
nothing...
If nothing else, I expect that Ojulari and Thibs are going to change that.
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
All the people claiming patience and dreaming of 2025 relavence will turn on the GM, coach, and everyone else like a rabid dog if the team starts 1-6.
This moment right now is the most goodwill shoen and sable will ever have
Don't presume to speak for others. I won't be turning on Schoen and Daboll. This is a rebuild that requires at least 1 season's worth of a bloodletting, beginning with this season. This is a TERRIBLE squad that won't win more than 4 or 5 games, if they're lucky.
That's a penalty for a team trading for him. Anyone who wants him and plans to play him was better off waiting for him to be cut, and paying him the on a non-guaranteed minimum.
But above all else, seems like the Giants just wanted him out of their hair ASAP.
Who is they
To me, screams Drew Wilkins and Wink Martindale. Perhaps also ILB coach John Egorugwu who was an assistant in BAL with Wink so he's familiar with them. But maybe I'm wrong.
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-
Heard the same, like over the top how disliked he was. With that said he initiated the divorce.
I mean, has anyone ever met a guy named "Blake" that wasn't a douchebag? :)
Parsons and another LB prospect for Toney and Robinson is pretty crippling.
Parsons and another LB prospect for Toney and Robinson is pretty crippling.
What are you talking about? And if you bring in Toney, why do you leave out Neal? Who they got from the Bears pick.
Well, OurLads and ESPN have two radically different ones. OurLads has Leonard Williams as a DE with Ellis and Lawrence as the DTs, Thibodeaux as the rush linebacker (Ward as backup) with McFadden and Crowder as the starting inside linebackers (McFadden as the MIKE, Crowder as the WILL) and Ojulari as the SAM linebacker.
ESPN has the defensive line in a 3-4 base with Ojulari as the LDE, Lawrence as the NT, and Williams as the RDE. Thibodeaux is a WILL linebacker (analogous with ROLB?), with Crowder as the SAM linebacker and Coughlin and McFadden as the inside linebackers.
We think they didn't re-up Logan Ryan for similar reasons.
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has continued on far too long. Have had some flashes of decency at ILB from time to time but seems like it's always a free agent signing at best.
Nothing home grown, nothing impactful, nothing consistent year to year.
nothing...
If nothing else, I expect that Ojulari and Thibs are going to change that.
Yep, although was speaking more on the inside...
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In comment 15801242 Rico said:
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Heard the same, like over the top how disliked he was. With that said he initiated the divorce.
I mean, has anyone ever met a guy named "Blake" that wasn't a douchebag? :)
Holy shit I'm ROFLMAO at this. Guy in the office next to me is Blake. He fits your description perfectly.
I don’t know how to do that nor do I think it’s possible to develop players while losing 13 games, but here we are.
If it was 2016 fine. Five straight depressingly awful seasons and we have to stare down yet another one before Labor Day even hits.
I don’t know…maybe I’m overstating the Martinez loss and we can still compete this year if everything breaks right, or maybe we we’re cooked with or without Martinez. I just want fun football again. It’s been so long.
Cheers. Hope everyone enjoys the long weekend.
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
All the people claiming patience and dreaming of 2025 relavence will turn on the GM, coach, and everyone else like a rabid dog if the team starts 1-6.
This moment right now is the most goodwill shoen and sable will ever have
If you're looking for instant gratification, you might want to look elsewhere, because you won't find it with the Giants this year. The team had to be torn down to its roots and rebuilt from the ground up. That wasn't going to be easy or painless, nor would it be accomplished quickly...certainly not in one offseason. You can either accept that, or you can continue throwing tantrums. The choice is yours.
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In comment 15801411 Jimmy Googs said:
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has continued on far too long. Have had some flashes of decency at ILB from time to time but seems like it's always a free agent signing at best.
Nothing home grown, nothing impactful, nothing consistent year to year.
nothing...
If nothing else, I expect that Ojulari and Thibs are going to change that.
Yep, although was speaking more on the inside...
The timing of cutting him was a bit strange though...after all of the maneuvers with cutting players, picking up a few players that were waived, putting some players on IR,
re-signing a few players, then we will cut Martinez?
Just a bit strange to me, something definitely went down behind closed doors...and it is not helping the cap situation at all as well.
From what I read, only saving about 200K.
Lets watch this LB crew this season, should be fun...
As a player or as a human being?
Parsons and another LB prospect for Toney and Robinson is pretty crippling.
You left out Neal and Bellinger.
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Is a fools errand.
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
All the people claiming patience and dreaming of 2025 relavence will turn on the GM, coach, and everyone else like a rabid dog if the team starts 1-6.
This moment right now is the most goodwill shoen and sable will ever have
If you're looking for instant gratification, you might want to look elsewhere, because you won't find it with the Giants this year. The team had to be torn down to its roots and rebuilt from the ground up. That wasn't going to be easy or painless, nor would it be accomplished quickly...certainly not in one offseason. You can either accept that, or you can continue throwing tantrums. The choice is yours.
Not sure if you missed the point or were to easily triggered by a perceived tantrum. It’s a fact that we have blown through coaches. I think that indicates a lack of patience. Can we agree on that? What exactly makes you think that Will be different now.
As far as seeking Instant gratification (what a lovely sound bite. Cheers to you) you presume to know what would make me happy. On the off chance you are not omnipotent I can spell it out for you. I would be gratified to see competent competitive football every week. I would be gratified to have 1 or less blow out loss. I would be gratified to not have a 3 game losing streak. I would be gratified to watch relevant football in December
And you know what? Those are reasonable expectations, If we have the right coach that is. The leaugue is built on parity and talent is relatively equivalent outside the elite. The distinguishing factor is coaching (and health). So I’m hoping we have the right guy.
Those are my expectations. I won’t presume to tell you what to expect or how to feel about it because that’s ignorant as fuck.
The Giants are not mediocre such that one or two high draft picks, and/or an experienced career assistant getting his first bite at the apple will pay immediate dividends in the form of W/L record.
They are a bad team, limited, and incomplete football roster who's best players are kids and young veterans who have yet to learn how to win in the NFL.
Good coaches don’t lose 12 games. Hoping we found a good one this time.
Bill Parcells went 3-12-1 in 1983. I'll give Daboll/Schoen a year.
One of the criticisms about him from Packerland was that he was tackle crazy . Consequently lost his run fit . Not sure if any of that was true . But I do know Crowder loses his run fit regularly so it’s not like he’s a rock to build on .
The Giants are not mediocre such that one or two high draft picks, and/or an experienced career assistant getting his first bite at the apple will pay immediate dividends in the form of W/L record.
They are a bad team, limited, and incomplete football roster who's best players are kids and young veterans who have yet to learn how to win in the NFL.
They are what the record says they are. A bad team until proven otherwise.
When I say built for parity the NFL loves having a huge swath of teams at around .500 and mathematically alive in December. So the improvement I’m looking for is getting out of the gutter and being average.
I personally think that coaching will in fact make a huge difference this year. I’m not delusional. I think 7-9 wins reasonable. I do think there is more talent then last 2 years and the offensive coaching is infinitely better. The schedule is more favorable then it has been.
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In comment 15801286 dancing blue bear said:
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Is a fools errand.
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
All the people claiming patience and dreaming of 2025 relavence will turn on the GM, coach, and everyone else like a rabid dog if the team starts 1-6.
This moment right now is the most goodwill shoen and sable will ever have
If you're looking for instant gratification, you might want to look elsewhere, because you won't find it with the Giants this year. The team had to be torn down to its roots and rebuilt from the ground up. That wasn't going to be easy or painless, nor would it be accomplished quickly...certainly not in one offseason. You can either accept that, or you can continue throwing tantrums. The choice is yours.
Not sure if you missed the point or were to easily triggered by a perceived tantrum. It’s a fact that we have blown through coaches. I think that indicates a lack of patience. Can we agree on that? What exactly makes you think that Will be different now.
As far as seeking Instant gratification (what a lovely sound bite. Cheers to you) you presume to know what would make me happy. On the off chance you are not omnipotent I can spell it out for you. I would be gratified to see competent competitive football every week. I would be gratified to have 1 or less blow out loss. I would be gratified to not have a 3 game losing streak. I would be gratified to watch relevant football in December
And you know what? Those are reasonable expectations, If we have the right coach that is. The leaugue is built on parity and talent is relatively equivalent outside the elite. The distinguishing factor is coaching (and health). So I’m hoping we have the right guy.
Those are my expectations. I won’t presume to tell you what to expect or how to feel about it because that’s ignorant as fuck.
The previous five years are in no way comparable to what's transpired this year. They have no bearing on it whatsoever. Until this year...until the team had fallen so far down they'd become the laughing stock of the league...there was no imperative to dramatically change the way they did business. The past five years were characterized by poor drafting and profligate, injudicious free agent signings. There was little rhyme or reason to roster construction - no doubt due to the disconnect between the FO and the coaching staff. Clearly, this has not been the case this year.
Instant gratification is not a sound bite. It's obviously what you seek. Everyone wants to win. No one enjoys losing. But the reality is that the gross mismanagement of the previous regime left the new regime with a team that was woefully devoid of talent on both sides of the ball, and with precious little resources to remedy that. You don't have to be happy about it - I'm certainly not - but you do have to accept it because it's the truth. To deny that is to live in a dream world. The Giants, as constructed, are simply not a good team now, and no amount of wishing is going to change that anytime soon. Your expectations are as decidedly unrealistic as your attitude is juvenile.
First and foremost, the new regime had to get its financial house in order, and that's still a work in progress. Second, they had to assemble a competent coaching staff to properly assess the talent on-hand, identify strengths and weaknesses, and do whatever they could with their limited resources to make upgrades. In addition, that staff had to figure out how best to use what talent they had, offensively and defensively. These tasks are best described as monumental. Will mistakes be made along the way? Quite probably. No one is perfect. But if the Giants can avoid the fatal, catastrophic mistakes, they should be good-to-go in a year or two (or three). Again, that's reality.
So, yes, I counsel patience. You may scoff at the idea, but what other choice is there? I think ownership understands that. I think they understand that drastic changes had to be made, and that the road back to respectability was going to be a long and rocky one. What I don't understand is why some fans fail to see that?
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In comment 15801648 Klaatu said:
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In comment 15801286 dancing blue bear said:
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Is a fools errand.
We are on our 3rd GM and 5th coach in 7 years. The nfl is a win now business
All the people claiming patience and dreaming of 2025 relavence will turn on the GM, coach, and everyone else like a rabid dog if the team starts 1-6.
This moment right now is the most goodwill shoen and sable will ever have
The previous five years are in no way comparable to what's transpired this year. They have no bearing on it whatsoever. Until this year...until the team had fallen so far down they'd become the laughing stock of the league...there was no imperative to dramatically change the way they did business. The past five years were characterized by poor drafting and profligate, injudicious free agent signings. There was little rhyme or reason to roster construction - no doubt due to the disconnect between the FO and the coaching staff. Clearly, this has not been the case this year.
Instant gratification is not a sound bite. It's obviously what you seek. Everyone wants to win. No one enjoys losing. But the reality is that the gross mismanagement of the previous regime left the new regime with a team that was woefully devoid of talent on both sides of the ball, and with precious little resources to remedy that. You don't have to be happy about it - I'm certainly not - but you do have to accept it because it's the truth. To deny that is to live in a dream world. The Giants, as constructed, are simply not a good team now, and no amount of wishing is going to change that anytime soon. Your expectations are as decidedly unrealistic as your attitude is juvenile.
First and foremost, the new regime had to get its financial house in order, and that's still a work in progress. Second, they had to assemble a competent coaching staff to properly assess the talent on-hand, identify strengths and weaknesses, and do whatever they could with their limited resources to make upgrades. In addition, that staff had to figure out how best to use what talent they had, offensively and defensively. These tasks are best described as monumental. Will mistakes be made along the way? Quite probably. No one is perfect. But if the Giants can avoid the fatal, catastrophic mistakes, they should be good-to-go in a year or two (or three). Again, that's reality.
So, yes, I counsel patience. You may scoff at the idea, but what other choice is there? I think ownership understands that. I think they understand that drastic changes had to be made, and that the road back to respectability was going to be a long and rocky one. What I don't understand is why some fans fail to see that?
I don’t scoff at your patient approach. You can root however you want. I’m not egotistical enough to think that people that don’t agree with my OPINION are wrong. You should reflect on that.
You don’t understand why fans won’t accept 3 year road to respectability? Do you watch the rest of the league? Fans see at least one worst to first EVERY year. I will explicitly say I don’t think the team is going to do that lest you draw that conclusion. Oh, and we haven’t had a coach last 3 years in a while. You keep repeating this is not a good team. I never claimed it was. I said that with good coaching they should be an AVERAGE team. Not a gutter team. Not a good team. Fortunately the coaches know they get a little slack in year 1 but if they win 4 games the seat is already warm in year 2.
I disagree that the roster is bottom 5, while I fully realize there are tons of holes and little depth. Again I see this a issues all teams deal with to some degree. Again I will be explicit so you don’t misconstrue. Not a good roster. Not a top half roster. Not bottom 5. A shade on the lower end of average
Amen. I’m disappointed in BBI the last few years with how it all but eats the posters alive who merely allow for the possibility of anything good to happen. Save me the all knowing who insist that young unproven teams never exceed expectations. It literally happens every year in the nfl. Bad teams turn good all the time and many times all but a few see it coming. Of course there are exceptions where some talent deficient teams don’t stand a chance, and maybe this is yet another one, but you can’t predict whether this OL will definitely suck or the front seven won’t be close to elite. And it could happen. Will it? Who the hell knows, odds are against it, but it’s the nfl and the ny giants. It’s supposed to be fun for the fans. If the fans wants to err on the side of hope don’t be a dick and rub their noses in it come January when the team underwhelms. It’s as if some here took it personally or blame the fans for bad play.
Remember 1997. There's always hope. Shit no one saw 1984 coming either.
We need to see progress. There’s no such thing as a redshirt year in the nfl. That doesn’t mean the giants need to go 500 or better or win x amount of games but they do need to show growth.
He said it a lot in 2018 and 2019…
I imagine you probably spend a ton of money on lottery tickets too.