That our scouting department applied to Micah Parsons. That’s why we didn’t draft him. (I refrained from using the word at the time and called it “Character concerns” instead).
The coaches and management had multiple connections to Penn State. Parsons had been involved in a hazing incident with graphic sexual details that I’m not getting into. The feeling was he would be out of football soon because he would be in jail.
We were fresh off of the Deandre Baker disaster, and we couldn’t afford another situation like that. We took Parsons off our board. There was no way we were drafting him.
As for Toney, the trade back caught us by surprise. We hadn’t scouted the late first round picks nearly as carefully, but Getty was committed to drafting a WR in round one once AVT was off the board. The Toney pick was a roll of the dice by a GM who usually had bad luck.
Hindsight is always 20/20
The pick was obvious, yet the Giants traded back to no man’s land and it netted them Kadarius Toney and Thibodeaux, essentially. Drafting MP prob would’ve saved DG’s job for at least another year, so maybe it’s not the worst thing in the world.
It hurts that the Giants had a chance to draft Parsons and Garrett Wilson in back to back drafts, and ended up with Toney & Neal.
I will remind people that my favorite player and yours, Lawrence Taylor, was never a model citizen.
Parsons will be now assaulting our backfield for years.
I remember reading that Toney was a Judge pick, but that could be revisionism by someone in the scouting dept. Either way, you pass on Parsons due to character concerns, but you draft Toney?
Especially when picking that high?
That in itself is enough evidence of incompetency.
You game-plan for ANY scenario.
(And we're talking about a franchise that advertised on its sleeve who they wanted each year under Gettlelman... so why would they not gameplan for someone taking the guy everyone knew they loved).
Sheer fucking incompetence.
Especially when picking that high?
That in itself is enough evidence of incompetency.
You game-plan for ANY scenario.
(And we're talking about a franchise that advertised on its sleeve who they wanted each year under Gettlelman... so why would they not gameplan for someone taking the guy everyone knew they loved).
Sheer fucking incompetence.
I don't understand not scouting "late first round picks." How many times do "late first round picks" become second round picks?
Especially when picking that high?
That in itself is enough evidence of incompetency.
You game-plan for ANY scenario.
(And we're talking about a franchise that advertised on its sleeve who they wanted each year under Gettlelman... so why would they not gameplan for someone taking the guy everyone knew they loved).
Sheer fucking incompetence.
This. Gettleman sucks.
"We absolutely love (player x). That's our guy."
ANY PERSON in the meeting room:
"OK, what if he's not there?"
Not because they are the best.
We've pretty much known this since the draft and it's been a goddamn splinter in my brain ever since.
Ummmm... no. He's the real deal.
This has been said about a lot of guys,we'll see how his career plays out
It's also hard to take the franchise seriously here considering they re-signed Josh Brown and trot out LT every chance they get.
You keep that torch burning and hope for the best.
Not because they are the best.
Very true. I knew a former head southern scout for an NFL team. You'd think they would have top scouts covering the south, since that is where a lot of the best players are. Nope. He went to college with the daughter of their special teams coach, and was friends with her.
So I was very disappointed that we did not take him when he was there. But I could also understand the merits of making the trade since that team, as it continues today, was not one player away from competing for a championship. But using the pick to select Toney, one of the great character nightmares ever to enter the league, was as bad a decision as I can recall. Especially after selecting OBJ over Donald, Ereck Flowers over Todd Gurley, Eli Apple over Laramy Tunsil and trading up for Deandre Baker.
Character assessment must always be a distant second to talent assessment. There is no "culture" without "winning" and there is no "winning" without "talent". And the Giants have demonstrated that they really don't know what they are doing when it comes to character assessment. Having a bunch of nice guys in the locker room is utterly pointless given the economics and hyper-speed performance expectations in today's NFL.
This year's draft appears to be the first time in recent memory that they put talent first. Let's hope it has finally become a trend around here.
As for Toney, how do you trade down without a plan??? I mean, passing on Parsons and having a reason is one thing, but don't trade down if you haven't scouted anyone at that range. "Let's trade down to 20 and hope we get lucky", no, that isn't how you run a football team, specifically since he was a WR which Gettleman was hell bent on drafting. You should have known everything about everyone of these guys.
What if Toney slipped to RD2 and they still wanted a WR, you need to be prepared for that.
This has always been my impression based on DG's own words in the post-draft PC. Paraphrasing: "When you draft a QB, first you get him protection (Andrew Thomas), then you get him weapons."
None of the assertions/rumors/"I heards" about DG not wanting Toney and wanting someone/something else, particularly another OL, have ever been based on reliable reporting.
And the "Gettleman looked annoyed" speculation was really reaching.
Parsons was/is a psycho on the football field. Calling him a psycho as a human being clearly shows Jints Central did a horrible job on the Parson's background.
Gettleman was a total moron.
Total clown show.
Not saying build a team with the criminal cast of Con Air, but sometimes you need an edge to compete and some level of "badness" isn't always bad.
See Taylor, Lawrence
not saying he is a perfect analogy, but hopefully the point is clear.
So you think he's going to the Hall of Fame? There's been nobody who has burst on the scene like this and not gone to the Hall Of Fame.
Jevon Kearse is an easy one,along with many more
"We absolutely love (player x). That's our guy."
ANY PERSON in the meeting room:
"OK, what if he's not there?"
Cedric Jones. Some things never change.
On the flip side, we now know Gettleman wouldn't even pick up the phone in the Barkley draft.
How can you possibly defend that?
We also passed on Rashawn Slater, who is a great LT (All Pro 2021) and would have been a great addition to the OL in 2021.
So ridiculous it seemed bullshit on its face, yet the usual clowns kept repeating it.
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Putting two and two together,"Psycho",and the fact that it was the Cowboys that drafted him,is enough to make me hold off on any Hall of Fame reservations.
We also passed on Rashawn Slater, who is a great LT (All Pro 2021) and would have been a great addition to the OL in 2021.
Slater was my guy too...
Taylor became notorious for off-field conduct during his professional career, but Giants head coach Ray Perkins called him “the cleanest player in the draft” with “no rap on him.”
Brandt: He didn’t have any issues at all at North Carolina. He was a perfect guy.
Walsh: There were no red flags on him coming out of college.
Taylor became notorious for off-field conduct during his professional career, but Giants head coach Ray Perkins called him “the cleanest player in the draft” with “no rap on him.”
Brandt: He didn’t have any issues at all at North Carolina. He was a perfect guy.
Walsh: There were no red flags on him coming out of college.
Perhaps he was just trying to sell books, but I seem to remember him bragging about his collegiate, off-the-field shenanigans in his autobiography.
Makes sense.
AVT would have actually been an outstanding pick. He is exactly what the NYG line needs right now. A Pro Bowl caliber OG that can play a solid OT if needed.
You can call me petty, but his stupid "a hot dog, a pretzel, and a bag of donuts" wisecrack let me know that he was a goddamned idiot who was going to be an awful GM.
Scared money never wins.
Especially when picking that high?
That in itself is enough evidence of incompetency.
You game-plan for ANY scenario.
(And we're talking about a franchise that advertised on its sleeve who they wanted each year under Gettlelman... so why would they not gameplan for someone taking the guy everyone knew they loved).
Sheer fucking incompetence.
Was going to post almost exactly this. How the hell are you not prepared for ALL possibilities going in to round 1?!?! That alone is, well I don’t know what it is, I’d say criminal but that won’t fit. But sure as hell feels like a crime. As in our entire front office was stealing from the organization by not doing their fucking job. Unreal
(1) AVT was a fast riser and the consensus was he'd be gone by the mid teens, which is what happened. The likelihood of him making it to #20 was very small. So how could the Giants have been surprised when he didn't?
(2) How could the Giants have passed on Parsons for character reasons but then drafted Toney, who also had a lot of character concerns?
(3) Are you saying that Toney was a Gettleman pick? I thought Toney was a Judge pick and that Gettleman wanted to draft Darrisaw after trading down to #20.
(4) Why was anyone in the FO surprised by the trade down? Gettleman specifically said in his press conference that he spoke with Ryan Pace, the then GM of the Bears, several times in the days leading up to the draft. Did Gettleman keep those conversations secret from everyone else in the FO?
Parsons is the "real deal," but exchanging him for Darrisaw, Cross, and G. Wilson would have been fine. The problem wasn't passing on Parsons so much as it was that we didn't get enough value out of the picks we got from the trade down.
This is what Sy said in his draft preview:
*There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. That really surprises me. I won’t give details here but there are a few serious red flags with character, and I just don’t see Toney having a high ceiling.
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what I don't get is how no red flags popped up about Toney
They did. They popped up all over Sy's analysis on him prior to the draft. If I remember correctly he even said something along the line of there was stuff he didn't even want to get into. That's when I knew this guy is a serious problem.
I know that. I was referencing with the Giants front office who actually drafted Toney
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do you get surprised by anything in the draft?
Especially when picking that high?
That in itself is enough evidence of incompetency.
You game-plan for ANY scenario.
(And we're talking about a franchise that advertised on its sleeve who they wanted each year under Gettlelman... so why would they not gameplan for someone taking the guy everyone knew they loved).
Sheer fucking incompetence.
I don't understand not scouting "late first round picks." How many times do "late first round picks" become second round picks?
This is a good point. And on top of that, DG had already shown a willingness to trade up from the 2nd into the back end of the 1st round previously. You'd think that if the Baker pick was enough to get them to take Parsons off the board, it should also have been enough to get them to scout the guys who would be there later in the 1st round.
Even when DG tried to learn from his mistakes (the Baker pick), he still couldn't even figure out the right lesson to learn (the lesson should have been, "be prepared for anything" instead of "remove any hint of known character concerns from the board").
Again, I have no idea why he thought AVT would be available at #20 when the pre-draft consensus seemed to be that he would be taken in the mid teens.
Gettleman also said in his press conference that getting an extra one the following year was particularly important because many players took advantage of the extra year of eligibility they got because of COVID-19 to stay in college. The next year's draft would therefore have more talented players. He may have also thought that the Bears would have a bad season, so their pick would be in or near the top 10.
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We took the trade back because it was too good to pass up and our primary targets, the 3 WR's and Pitts we're gone. We wanted AVT and hoped he would fall back to our pick. When AVT got drafted, my source said there was not a clear plan and we were "flying by the seat of our pants". We hadn't spent a lot of time thinking about who was worthy of a late 1st round pick. Getty wanted offense to bolster his gamble on Jones, so we went with our next highest WR.
Makes sense.
AVT would have actually been an outstanding pick. He is exactly what the NYG line needs right now. A Pro Bowl caliber OG that can play a solid OT if needed.
Why not add Slater? He played LT, RT and, I believe, some interior, at Northwestern. And he's been a stud in the NFL.
On the flip side, we now know Gettleman wouldn't even pick up the phone in the Barkley draft.
How can you possibly defend that?
You don't actually have any credible posters that defended this GM during his reign, did you?
Because this entire organization is rudderless. Unless we shit stomp Arizona with purpose then we will remain shel shocked this whole season is my guess. And if we lose to them, and take a Dallas/Philly style beating from SF, see ya later 2023 Giants. A thorough as kicking of Arizona will be just what the doctor ordered. A win by the skin of our teeth, and especially a loss is going to set this franchise further back then we thought we could even get. Rock bottom will have been replace by the earths core.
There were 3 excellent WR's in that draft and it was very foreseeable that they would all go prior to the Giants.
There is a difference between being a borderline criminal, as many thought Parsons was, and being a selfish, self-centered prick like Toney.
Anyone who watched the pre-draft segment about Parsons where they followed him around his town should have realized he didn’t fit in either of those categories.
Yikes! Wow. "So we went with our next highest WR." A 12 year old playing Madden would make more of a sound decision.
Whatever happened to Gettleman preaching how you can never reach on a pick?
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could we not have scouted late first round picks?
Because this entire organization is rudderless.
You do realize they won a road playoff game last season against a team that was 13-4 right?
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compare this with Schoen. You may like or not like who Schoen selected, but they game-planned for every scenario, including having trade up and trade down partners already lined up.
On the flip side, we now know Gettleman wouldn't even pick up the phone in the Barkley draft.
How can you possibly defend that?
You don't actually have any credible posters that defended this GM during his reign, did you?
What's your definition of "credible"?
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how does Sy'56 know about Toney's character issues before the draft but the Giants don't?
You don't think the obvious conclusion is that this "inside info" is what is actually bullshit?
Mort, they drafted Toney.
The guy was a whack job from the start.
"Flying by the seat of our pants" - what a way to go through the first round of your draft.
Holy moly.
They met with him at the senior bowl but I think it was a 30 minute meeting with some covid restrictions in place. Judge didn't shut up about his "energy" during the meeting.
This is the key point.
"Just wait, we haven't seen the real Parsons yet!"
WTF? We already traded our #1 pick out of town because of character concerns.
The other guy? He's arguably the best defensive player in football and just went on record defending Daniel Jones to every fan base.
Not saying build a team with the criminal cast of Con Air, but sometimes you need an edge to compete and some level of "badness" isn't always bad.
See Taylor, Lawrence
not saying he is a perfect analogy, but hopefully the point is clear.
Taylor wasn't a choir boy, but he wasn't a thug either. His crimes were mostly victimless, except of course himself.
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In comment 16204840 Eric from BBI said:
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compare this with Schoen. You may like or not like who Schoen selected, but they game-planned for every scenario, including having trade up and trade down partners already lined up.
On the flip side, we now know Gettleman wouldn't even pick up the phone in the Barkley draft.
How can you possibly defend that?
You don't actually have any credible posters that defended this GM during his reign, did you?
What's your definition of "credible"?
Your call, decent leeway.
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In comment 16204898 AcidTest said:
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could we not have scouted late first round picks?
Because this entire organization is rudderless.
You do realize they won a road playoff game last season against a team that was 13-4 right?
Yea and I also realize there was a lot of “puck luck” in their season. As well as in Minnesotas season. I also know they got their doors blown off in embarrassing fashion by two teams in a row. The second being after a 7 month hiatus where they pooled their resources to reinforce the team and make it stronger. Yet the result appears to be that it had the exact opposite affect.
You do realize all those things happened right? And I’ll say this for the 10000 time, I’ll happily eat crow if these guys turn it around. Because at the end of the day all I want is to be able to sit down on a Sunday or Monday day or night, and watch a game where this team isn’t most likely going to shit the bed. And while last season was a pleasant surprise, let’s not act like they went all season just stomping teams out. Their wins took a ton of luck and guts. Two things that were missing Sunday night. And without those two things, it showed we are a rudderless disaster.
I’ll happily admit I’m an overreacting fool if they turn it around. But I have major doubts that’s gonna happen.
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In comment 16204768 Eric from BBI said:
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how does Sy'56 know about Toney's character issues before the draft but the Giants don't?
You don't think the obvious conclusion is that this "inside info" is what is actually bullshit?
Mort, they drafted Toney.
The guy was a whack job from the start.
What we don't know: pretty much anything else. The fact pattern given by Rico, the assertion of the word psycho in the scouting report...and everything else is an anonymous poster on an internet board saying something that is now considered writ. And it is. You can say it isn't but read the thread. And in the future, it will be considered settled fact.
What is more likely? That an anonymous guy can have access to very minute details (some of which don't make any sense in context) and post them here or that this is...bullshit?
I know the Giants were mismanaged so I guess anything is plausible and I am probably using too much common sense and logic.
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how does Sy'56 know about Toney's character issues before the draft but the Giants don't?
_________________________________
There is a difference between being a borderline criminal, as many thought Parsons was, and being a selfish, self-centered prick like Toney.
Anyone who watched the pre-draft segment about Parsons where they followed him around his town should have realized he didn’t fit in either of those categories.
That's a completely innaccurate assessment. Parsons wasn't any borderline criminal, its just terrible ass scouting that blew up a light hazing incident, that I believe PSU and the police did not bother with. Toney was detained/investigated twice(?) for gun issues.
Separately, they completely got caught with their pants down and doubled down to blow it on Toney.
I'm inclined to believe Rico - ( New Window )
I know the Giants were mismanaged so I guess anything is plausible and I am probably using too much common sense and logic.
That's exactly what they did.
No one is denying that at this point.
How the Giants dug deep on Toney - ( New Window )
Separately, they completely got caught with their pants down and doubled down to blow it on Toney.
^This.
As for Toney, how do you trade down without a plan??? I mean, passing on Parsons and having a reason is one thing, but don't trade down if you haven't scouted anyone at that range. "Let's trade down to 20 and hope we get lucky", no, that isn't how you run a football team, specifically since he was a WR which Gettleman was hell bent on drafting. You should have known everything about everyone of these guys.
What if Toney slipped to RD2 and they still wanted a WR, you need to be prepared for that.
100% all of this. with the way they evaluated parsons the trade was a perfectly acceptable outcome - they took chicago to the woodshed.
at 20 they should have taken elijah moore or greg rousseau (who schoen's team picked). moore was the chalk best WR available and even though he didnt work out with the Jets, he had no bad rep. rousseau is a very good young DL. would not shock me if he has a justin tuck career. pff credited him with 9 sacks last year so he is well on his way.
the giants (and many others) missed on the covid opt outs. they all fell farther than they should have.
I know the Giants were mismanaged so I guess anything is plausible and I am probably using too much common sense and logic.
Character concerns? Did you (and most everyone here it seems) just ignore the word "Jail" in the OP's comment? When that word is mentioned, we are talking about CRIMINAL concerns, as in the man is a criminal and may end up in jail, as opposed to the man is a dickhead who doesnt try hard or care about football. IF teams had serious concerns about the jail thing,then that would explain to me why a man with the talent he has lasted as long as he did in round 1. What Dallas has done to reverse these concerns, who knows.
I'll go out on a limb and say the character concerns with Toney were not of that variety.
That's not to defend picking Toney. His lack of judgement was on full display when he went to a gun fight with air rifle made up to look like an AR-15.
I can see why skipping both guys would have been defendable.
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but sounds all over the place, in other words things don't quite add up. Giants completely bungled the scouting on Parsons over character issues, but took Toney?
I know the Giants were mismanaged so I guess anything is plausible and I am probably using too much common sense and logic.
Character concerns? Did you (and most everyone here it seems) just ignore the word "Jail" in the OP's comment? When that word is mentioned, we are talking about CRIMINAL concerns, as in the man is a criminal and may end up in jail, as opposed to the man is a dickhead who doesnt try hard or care about football. IF teams had serious concerns about the jail thing,then that would explain to me why a man with the talent he has lasted as long as he did in round 1. What Dallas has done to reverse these concerns, who knows.
And why isn't he in jail?? Probably because of ass scouting from the Giants that completely mischaracterized and imagined a situation.
Or as I said things don't add up, and its quite possible Rico is just a messenger.
Please share was us the details of what occurred.
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that's completely incorrect and likely ass scouting from the Giants, Parsons was never charged with a sexual assault. It was a silly light hazing incident.
Please share was us the details of what occurred.
He made jokes about an infamous person and incident from PSU. Sounds like something PSU and the police won't even bother bringing charges.
Separately, they completely got caught with their pants down and doubled down to blow it on Toney.
A lot of Humphries (player suing PSU players and Franklin) case started to fall apart in October 2020 when the judge dismissed a lot of the charges.
That was six months before the 2021 draft.
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that's completely incorrect and likely ass scouting from the Giants, Parsons was never charged with a sexual assault. It was a silly light hazing incident.
Please share was us the details of what occurred.
This article outlines it in detail.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 16205048 Spiciest Memelord said:
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that's completely incorrect and likely ass scouting from the Giants, Parsons was never charged with a sexual assault. It was a silly light hazing incident.
Please share was us the details of what occurred.
He made jokes about an infamous person and incident from PSU. Sounds like something PSU and the police won't even bother bringing charges.
This is information you know firsthand?
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In comment 16205014 Spiciest Memelord said:
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but sounds all over the place, in other words things don't quite add up. Giants completely bungled the scouting on Parsons over character issues, but took Toney?
I know the Giants were mismanaged so I guess anything is plausible and I am probably using too much common sense and logic.
Character concerns? Did you (and most everyone here it seems) just ignore the word "Jail" in the OP's comment? When that word is mentioned, we are talking about CRIMINAL concerns, as in the man is a criminal and may end up in jail, as opposed to the man is a dickhead who doesnt try hard or care about football. IF teams had serious concerns about the jail thing,then that would explain to me why a man with the talent he has lasted as long as he did in round 1. What Dallas has done to reverse these concerns, who knows.
And why isn't he in jail?? Probably because of ass scouting from the Giants that completely mischaracterized and imagined a situation.
Or as I said things don't add up, and its quite possible Rico is just a messenger.
Maybe you're the Psycho.
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In comment 16205060 christian said:
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In comment 16205048 Spiciest Memelord said:
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that's completely incorrect and likely ass scouting from the Giants, Parsons was never charged with a sexual assault. It was a silly light hazing incident.
Please share was us the details of what occurred.
He made jokes about an infamous person and incident from PSU. Sounds like something PSU and the police won't even bother bringing charges.
This is information you know firsthand?
No, its common knowledge.
I'll go out on a limb and say the character concerns with Toney were not of that variety.
That's not to defend picking Toney. His lack of judgement was on full display when he went to a gun fight with air rifle made up to look like an AR-15.
I can see why skipping both guys would have been defendable.
My feeling is Humphries and his attorneys knew Parsons and Gross-Matos were future high draft picks and added them to his suite - which was dimissed - for effect.
He either did or didn't get put on team probation, and that's something the Giants connections to the program would know.
If true, I doubt that's because he made a crude joke about Sandusky.
That someone close to the situation concluded he was psycho lends some credibility something more serious occured.
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Parsons was allegedly put on team probation after punching a teammate in the face. And then was accused of hazing that included rubbing his dick on a teammate.
I'll go out on a limb and say the character concerns with Toney were not of that variety.
That's not to defend picking Toney. His lack of judgement was on full display when he went to a gun fight with air rifle made up to look like an AR-15.
I can see why skipping both guys would have been defendable.
My feeling is Humphries and his attorneys knew Parsons and Gross-Matos were future high draft picks and added them to his suite - which was dimissed - for effect.
That's a whole another angle some are oblivious too but that's another can of worms. The police and DA certainly didn't think to much of his accusations.
In comment 16205065 Pete in MD said:
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In comment 16205048 Spiciest Memelord said:
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that's completely incorrect and likely ass scouting from the Giants, Parsons was never charged with a sexual assault. It was a silly light hazing incident.
Please share was us the details of what occurred.
This article outlines it in detail. Link - ( New Window )
Good find! The Giants believed the final bullet point to be true.
Gettleman is also the same buffoon who said he wouldn't even entertain calls for the #2 pick in '18. HE WOULDN'T EVEN FIELD CALLS! Good Lord. He should have been fired on the spot.
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My feeling is Humphries and his attorneys knew Parsons and Gross-Matos were future high draft picks and added them to his suite - which was dimissed - for effect.
He either did or didn't get put on team probation, and that's something the Giants connections to the program would know.
If true, I doubt that's because he made a crude joke about Sandusky.
That someone close to the situation concluded he was psycho lends some credibility something more serious occured.
In my opinion, Parsons got the probation for punching Humphries.
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In comment 16205063 Spiciest Memelord said:
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In comment 16205060 christian said:
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In comment 16205048 Spiciest Memelord said:
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that's completely incorrect and likely ass scouting from the Giants, Parsons was never charged with a sexual assault. It was a silly light hazing incident.
Please share was us the details of what occurred.
He made jokes about an infamous person and incident from PSU. Sounds like something PSU and the police won't even bother bringing charges.
This is information you know firsthand?
No, its common knowledge.
We all have the internet...do you know something we don't first hand? Because what i'm reading isn't light hazing and not sure I blame NYG for having caution.
Now not having a plan after a trade back, that* I have a problem with.
OK I get it its the internet, and people lack common sense and would prefer to imagine some crime they can stand up and virtue signal against and say what Parsons allegedly did was bad so I'll look on the bright side of all this, at least I recalled some funny barbs I can use against Dallas and Parsons fans.
If true, I doubt that's because he made a crude joke about Sandusky.
That someone close to the situation concluded he was psycho lends some credibility something more serious occured.
In my opinion, Parsons got the probation for punching Humphries.
I tend to agree. I think that's a very specific allegation, and according to the reporting the timing adds up.
To me it's pretty easy to line up how this plays out. Team Gettleman asks Spencer for his read, and he's say we had to punish him for punching a teammate off the field, and there's a rumor he was part of a crew hazing with sexual stuff.
With the backdrop of Baker, I think it's an easy pass.
That they jumped out of the pan and into the fire with Toney is just classic Gettleman.
+1.
Don’t forget, he was widely considered the best player in the draft and fell out of the top-10
This type of thing unfortunately happened again this year to Philly’s possible benefit.
OK I get it its the internet, and people lack common sense and would prefer to imagine some crime they can stand up and virtue signal against and say what Parsons allegedly did was bad so I'll look on the bright side of all this, at least I recalled some funny barbs I can use against Dallas and Parsons fans.
I will not claim any knowledge on what happened at PSU or the Giants draft room regarding Parsons. That said:
The fact that no charges were brought against Parsons in that jurisdiction is not proof that there was no crime committed or not substantial evidence that one was committed. Athlete's there get an extremely long leash with their criminal behavior so long as nobody actually has footage of them doing it.
Though if he was this much of a character concern, you would think something would have happened by now in the NFL. Even a minor something, but I can't recall anything. So IMO, either he was never really a character problem, or something happened and the kid grew up and wised up in a hurry.
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In comment 16205048 Spiciest Memelord said:
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that's completely incorrect and likely ass scouting from the Giants, Parsons was never charged with a sexual assault. It was a silly light hazing incident.
Please share was us the details of what occurred.
This article outlines it in detail. Link - ( New Window )
If that local story isn’t a final indictment of the Nittany Lions program, I don’t know what is. That a program that had just gone through the Sandusky/Paterno scandal would have its leadership react to hazing accusations like this is almost unbelievable. I thought hazing involved wearing weird clothes and being forced to drink too much tequila, not getting punched in the face and genitalia rubbed against oneself. I am a PA resident and even so this makes me think the entire program deserves the death sentence.
The fact that no charges were brought against Parsons in that jurisdiction is not proof that there was no crime committed or not substantial evidence that one was committed. Athlete's there get an extremely long leash with their criminal behavior so long as nobody actually has footage of them doing it.
Let me push back on this for this reason: the Penn State football program will be under scrutiny for a long, long time because of Sandusky. So, I don't think there is much chance of favoritism for PSU football player when it comes to any potential crime, especially what Humphries alleged.
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But, if they knew the hazing incident included a sexual assault or any other crime they shouldn't look past, then I support avoiding the player. This isn't 1981, and the info almost always gets out there in some form.
Separately, they completely got caught with their pants down and doubled down to blow it on Toney.
A lot of Humphries (player suing PSU players and Franklin) case started to fall apart in October 2020 when the judge dismissed a lot of the charges.
That was six months before the 2021 draft.
Too much smoke for my comfort, especially since I played the game and know how hazing can go. I would've passed too.
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In comment 16205020 JonC said:
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But, if they knew the hazing incident included a sexual assault or any other crime they shouldn't look past, then I support avoiding the player. This isn't 1981, and the info almost always gets out there in some form.
Separately, they completely got caught with their pants down and doubled down to blow it on Toney.
A lot of Humphries (player suing PSU players and Franklin) case started to fall apart in October 2020 when the judge dismissed a lot of the charges.
That was six months before the 2021 draft.
Too much smoke for my comfort, especially since I played the game and know how hazing can go. I would've passed too.
A neighboring school had a scandal back in '98 that earned them the name Broomstick High (North Schulykill, in eastern PA). I was urinated on and made to do pushups while upper classman whomped us with bars of soap in socks. The hazing stopped when my class became upper classman.
And I gotta be honest...probably still would've drafted him.
When Toney got interviewed after the draft I knew he would be pretty much a bust from the get go.
Passing on Slater was equally as incompetent as passing on Parsons. Do you think we could use him on the OL?
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But trusted the sources on this site and they said they had inside formation and he was off our board. I trusted that and support that decision. The draft of Toney separate issue.
Passing on Slater was equally as incompetent as passing on Parsons. Do you think we could use him on the OL?
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... coming out of UNC there were no character issues, no red flags. Here's an excerpt from an article in The Athleti, featuring Gil Brandt and scout Whitey Walsh:
Taylor became notorious for off-field conduct during his professional career, but Giants head coach Ray Perkins called him “the cleanest player in the draft” with “no rap on him.”
Brandt: He didn’t have any issues at all at North Carolina. He was a perfect guy.
Walsh: There were no red flags on him coming out of college.
Perhaps he was just trying to sell books, but I seem to remember him bragging about his collegiate, off-the-field shenanigans in his autobiography.
Weren't there stories of him UNC and some teammates playing chicken with trains on the tracks? Last one to jump out of the way etc?
The kid did a stupid thing as a teenager... Who hasn't? Look at the Northwestern situation - how many athletes got caught up in that? Were the kids who allegedly committed acts of hazing the cause or the effect of a harsh institutional culture? And shame on Penn State - especially after Sandusky! How is Franklin still there given these allegations when Pat Fitzgerald was fired without any specific details being released from that investigation...
And in Parsons case, the allegations of sodomy were dismissed. There was no proof - only an allegation. And basing opinions on unprovable allegations is a pathway to sheer chaos in terms of player recruitment and development. So the idea that a coach whose nickname is "Coach Chaos" was the driver of such an egregious miscalculation of character is only proper and fitting.
But we see these complete misses on character all the time. Laramy Tunsil in 2016. And now Jalen Carter in 2023. Thank God George Young put talent before character in 1981 or this franchise might still be looking for its first Super Bowl.
The sexual assault thing depends a lot on the lurid details. A hazing prank gone a little too far? Or outright assault? A cover up? Or didn't merit formal charges/trial?
Some times a lot of little things add up. How well liked was he by his coaches/team mates? IF he had a strong personality, I can see that turning a lot of folk off, and them bad mouthing him to scouts.
I can fully believe dysfunction junction in Giants Central.
When advocating taking talent over character, one also has to remember that there are plenty of cautionary tales about character sinking talent. Giants missed the boat on Toney's character, but that doesn't mean they were wrong to not take Parsons off the board. They were wrong in their evaluations, which wasn't out of character for the scouting of the time.
I get it. But when you then draft Toney, you become a blatant hypocrite. I really had no problem with the trade, but then you have to draft Darrisaw, Moore or Bateman there. Had they drafted Darrisaw, they would have then drafted Garrett Wilson at seven last year instead of Neal. And then we would have two pro bowl caliber players, together as good as or better than Parsons, instead of zero.
-Took their clothes and did not return them.
-Told them they intended to make them “their bitch because this is a prison.”
-Wrestled them down and simulating a humping action while on top of them.
-Placed their penis in their faces while simulating ejaculation.
-Placed their penis on and in their buttocks.
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Mike, I struggle with this one--the allegations are really tough, and if the Giants had an inkling there was truth to the more disgusting stuff through the former Penn State coach, I understand passing.
I get it. But when you then draft Toney, you become a blatant hypocrite. I really had no problem with the trade, but then you have to draft Darrisaw, Moore or Bateman there. Had they drafted Darrisaw, they would have then drafted Garrett Wilson at seven last year instead of Neal. And then we would have two pro bowl caliber players, together as good as or better than Parsons, instead of zero.
Absolutely with you here--you take Parsons off the board, fine. I can accept the decision and will admit to being very pleased with the trade down when it happened. I cannot accept then taking Toney, though.
Gettleman sucks.
The allegations, I believe, were dismissed October 2020.
Sure he maybe had some diva tendendcies but I can count on one hand the better WR's I saw.
Sometimes to win in the NFL it's easier with the Moss, Ray Lewis, LT, Terrell Owens, etc. and I would create a version of the hot crazy scale to determine if the hot is worth the crazy.
it's not exact, but drafting Neal and Thibodeaux, Toney, etc. doesn't seem to be exact either so why limit your options.
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Mike, I struggle with this one--the allegations are really tough, and if the Giants had an inkling there was truth to the more disgusting stuff through the former Penn State coach, I understand passing.
The allegations, I believe, were dismissed October 2020.
Dismissed doesn't mean it didn't happen, it means there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute. I don't necessarily have a problem with the Giants getting rid of Parsons given his coach was on our staff and presumably had information others weren't privy to. It sucks for us that Parsons has seemingly been a model citizen and one of the better defenders in the league from his first snap, but it's hard to fault the Giants if some of those things really happened and went unpunished.
What's truly insane is seemingly not having any idea about Toney's troubles, which were well-known at the time. Just criminally inept. Par for the course with Gettleman.
Dismissed doesn't mean it didn't happen, it means there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute. I don't necessarily have a problem with the Giants getting rid of Parsons given his coach was on our staff and presumably had information others weren't privy to. It sucks for us that Parsons has seemingly been a model citizen and one of the better defenders in the league from his first snap, but it's hard to fault the Giants if some of those things really happened and went unpunished.
What's truly insane is seemingly not having any idea about Toney's troubles, which were well-known at the time. Just criminally inept. Par for the course with Gettleman.
I always keep the Duke lacrosse case in the back of my mind with these situations. So, either you accept the dismissal, or you don't.
But I do understand the skepticism.
Thats not even a back up plan when referring to round 1. It’s just a plan. Because round 1 NEVER goes as expected. You hope it falls your way, but most times it gets out of hand, and fast. Have a friggin plan man
It would be like turning Tom Cruise down for a role because of his height, and then casting Danny DeVito.
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In comment 16204768 Eric from BBI said:
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how does Sy'56 know about Toney's character issues before the draft but the Giants don't?
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There is a difference between being a borderline criminal, as many thought Parsons was, and being a selfish, self-centered prick like Toney.
Anyone who watched the pre-draft segment about Parsons where they followed him around his town should have realized he didn’t fit in either of those categories.
That's a completely innaccurate assessment. Parsons wasn't any borderline criminal, its just terrible ass scouting that blew up a light hazing incident, that I believe PSU and the police did not bother with. Toney was detained/investigated twice(?) for gun issues.
The key phrase in the post is "as many thought." Is it silly that many may have thought Parsons was a borderline criminal? Sure. But it's apparent that many thought that anyway.
One of the most athletic gifted OL in the last 10 years out of college
His predraft workouts were stunning