Daboll and Schoen- are these the right guys?

Holy overreaction batman.

Are we so quickly to write off last year's success?

Sports fans are really the worst sometimes

Also, it has little to do what happens this week....good or bad.

We are in year 2 of the most current rebuild.....and will give them time.

Will tell. This isn’t a 2 year situation like the last 3 turds.

"The extent of the poor performance, particularly players Schoen brought in and the apparent lack of readiness from the OL makes this a worthwhile thread to start."

No, it doesn't. We won a road playoff game last year. One game the following season does not justify this thread.

In comment 16206931 Hammer said:

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Holy overreaction batman.

Thibodeaux & Neal may be big misses with top 10 picks. Hope not.

I was expecting a thread like this Sunday night if we lost.

Get fucked.

In comment 16206941 US1 Giants said:

Quote:

In comment 16206931 Hammer said: Quote: Holy overreaction batman. Thibodeaux & Neal may be big misses with top 10 picks. Hope not.

Thibodeaux had a game-winning sack-fumble against the ravens, and a sack-fumble-TD against the Commanders just last season.

He is not a miss.

were the right guys last year.

There is certainly more to prove. But it's too early to have this conversation after one game. Granted, as bad a loss as you will ever see...

at his kid's bday party this weekend. F that, get him out of here.

Loves Thibs. ;)

In comment 16206946 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 16206941 US1 Giants said: Quote: In comment 16206931 Hammer said: Quote: Holy overreaction batman. Thibodeaux & Neal may be big misses with top 10 picks. Hope not. Thibodeaux had a game-winning sack-fumble against the ravens, and a sack-fumble-TD against the Commanders just last season. He is not a miss.

He some plays, but does not make a lot of plays. Expect more from a top-10 pick.

am deeply concerned given a 40-0 loss at home, in prime time, against a division rival, with a team that has veterans in key positions.

It’s a long season and last year was a resounding success in year one of a major reset for the franchise. So even if we go 0-17, which the Giants won’t, Schoen and Daboll are here for the long term. Mara doesn’t want to go through what he did after 2021 for a very long time.

Clearly the team was unprepared in all three phases and that falls on Daboll. Maybe he was too easy on the players in training camp and the off-season maybe Dallas was just way better prepared on the scouting/planning front, I don’t know.

But regardless, they’re not going anywhere and think it’s way too early to start calling players coaches or GMs duds.

In comment 16206950 bw in dc said:

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Loves Thibs. ;)

If he's a bum I'll call him a bum. I don't have any attachment. It's still stupid to 'question' it when he's already made game-winning plays.

It's not his fault that he's not Parsons, it's fans' fault for expecting that.

JS is building a team , we all thought was a 3 year plan, especially with what he inherited from DG.
BD Is still a W. I.P. as a HC as we saw in leaving DJ in with the score 1,000-0.
Remember ll the questions re Big Bill Y2&3.

Right out of the gate that game spiraled into Dallas' hands. I have every bit of belief that this team truly believed they were going to beat Dallas. But from the moment of that AT false start, things just snowballed out of control and we were no longer just battling Dallas --they were battling the pure shock of what had just happened. It sucked everything out of the them and you could see it. There comes a point when the results are so out of whack they lose their value as a barometer altogether. 47-0 comes to mind.

Yes, that game really rattled my faith in this team, but I am far more interested in seeing how they respond. This Az and SF games will be a better barometer IMO assuming they don't also go off the rails or injuries or something. But to me, if they simply come out get by on a win over Az, I will not see that as a good sign at all. Az is likely the worst team on our schedule, if not the worst in the league. If we don't win and win decisively, put me in the camp that doesn't see it for this team. But for now the prudent thinking is to say wait and see. A game like week 1 that spirals so dramatically so sudden can be hard to take at face value without additional corroborating support.

I m disappointed or surprised someone would start a thread like this.

But I do marvel at how a fan doesn’t understand how stereotypical they come across when overreacting to things.

By most reasonable standards this is not the time such a question should be asked.

right now. Although that is admittedly biased in how unprepared the ENTIRE team looked on Sunday night and still being upset as a fan.

I like what both have to say, some of their tough-love approaches to players, and where they came from. I think they are both developing their own crafts as well but seem very aligned on topics which is a good thing.

We may not have a winning year but it will tell us a lot about both.

Daboll proved himself well last year. I think the jury is more so out on Schoen. Feather in his cap - when he had a full year in the building to prepare his 2023 draft results look good thus far. 2022 looks like more of a dud but we still don't know on some guys and it was his first draft.

Its not going to be easy closing the gap on Philly & Dallas. Personally, I underestimated the fact Dallas may have gotten better. That defense looks sick.

The lines of both teams will continue posing problems for the Giants.

The Giants are still in an interesting position roster wise. Young players you really need to ascend in different ways this year (Azeez and Neal) may not end up being long term pieces. Then what? More holes. Is Kayvon a good #2 or can he can become a #1 guy? Another question we won't have a better answer to until the end of this season.

Then you have veterans like Adoree and Leo who probably aren't long for this team which may be prudent but you still lose solid vets.

Thankfully you have elite young talent at crucial positions (AT & Dex).

This is still a team devoid of depth and some top end talent, while I feel its moving in the right direction its hard to know exactly where they're at. We'll know soon enough when we play more elite teams.

I'm bullish on the coaching, I think its a good staff. Right now my answer is yes.

Nothing changes until they fix the OL and man am I so friggin tired of having to say that.

Jury is out.

I don't like Wink's attacking D or Daboll's complicated passing attack, with the right players it can succeed of course but we don't have close to the right players on Oline, and Winks been stinking it up lately.

In comment 16206972 GiantGrit said:

Quote:

Daboll proved himself well last year. I think the jury is more so out on Schoen. Feather in his cap - when he had a full year in the building to prepare his 2023 draft results look good thus far. 2022 looks like more of a dud but we still don't know on some guys and it was his first draft. Its not going to be easy closing the gap on Philly & Dallas. Personally, I underestimated the fact Dallas may have gotten better. That defense looks sick. The lines of both teams will continue posing problems for the Giants. The Giants are still in an interesting position roster wise. Young players you really need to ascend in different ways this year (Azeez and Neal) may not end up being long term pieces. Then what? More holes. Is Kayvon a good #2 or can he can become a #1 guy? Another question we won't have a better answer to until the end of this season. Then you have veterans like Adoree and Leo who probably aren't long for this team which may be prudent but you still lose solid vets. Thankfully you have elite young talent at crucial positions (AT & Dex). This is still a team devoid of depth and some top end talent, while I feel its moving in the right direction its hard to know exactly where they're at. We'll know soon enough when we play more elite teams. I'm bullish on the coaching, I think its a good staff. Right now my answer is yes. Nothing changes until they fix the OL and man am I so friggin tired of having to say that.

I would be tempted to bet money a bum team like Washington will give Dallas fits.

...

Follow up: how many first round draft picks will it take to trade for the rights to Joe Judge?

I thought Charlie Weis was the right guy when Tom Coughlin was hired and I thought Joe Judge was the 2nd coming of Bill Parcells.

Maybe I should leave this question to other people?

I will say this. I really like both of them in their jobs. I think both of them are just entering their prime years for their roles and are on the front of NFL trends. I think at this point it will take another half dozen games like this last one before I lose faith in them. I hope I don't find out.

I think the past decade of Giants football has taught us that until the Giants have a fair to good OL they will remain a bad team. I think the Giants were a bad team last year that was coached to their maximum talent level and that had a favorable schedule. They were a bad team last Sunday, in large part, because the OL was horrific.

After the game Sunday night Schoen and Daboll are 0-6 vs Philadelphia and Dallas and they've been out scored by them 78-7 in their last two games.

And you are what you're record says you are.

Is this really the question to ask RIGHT NOW after ONE GAME? Were you asking the same question when we won a playoff game 8 months ago in both of their first seasons?

in the Hall of Fame after one better than expected season, is WAY to early for this question after one awful loss.

is that our stadium needs a roof because this team didn’t function very well in inclement weather.

Great post UberAlias.

In Daboll's case - hasn't he earned at least the opportunity to deal with adversity? We just came off 2 back to back dominant losses. (Eagles playoffs and Dallas). Let's see how he handles this. He was coach of the year and even the greatest coaches have had their teams face losses.

Schoen - we were just lauding him how he was able to work with the cap the last two seasons and build the roster.

Again, I have an unhealthy obsession with the F-Faces from Florham Park but Douglas gets blown and can do no wrong. Schoen was handed a very restrictive situation and he and Daboll have been doing OK.

I am not saying we are the 2003 Patriots but that is the example that came to me. They opened up with a blowout loss that season.

that rain intimidates them. Or playing in the evening. Or playing against a division rival. Or travelling across the country to play.

lighten up!

Shoen
Neal scouting
Wandale vs shoring up IOL earlier last year
I didn’t like the deadcap from Logan cut only to cycle in all these other FA safeties
Not picking up 5th yr on Jones

The rub is that the draft winners often reveal later than the concerns.

I like what he’s done in FA and this years draft so far so he has a long leash for me

How many here thought the Giants would be a playoff team going into last year (and win on the road vs a 13-4 team)? The prevailing wisdom was that this team was 2-3 years away from being mediocre, let alone competing for the playoffs. The good news is that almost every decision Schoen and Daboll made last year worked out. The bad news is that it's hard to replicate that year in and year out, and 2022's success probably led to overinflated expectations.

Losing 40-0 to the Cowboys is hard to swallow even if you're rebuilding, so all the angst around here is understandable. But I think two things are clear:

1. This team is still a work in progress. Schoen and Daboll's comments in preseason told us as much. It would be nice to think that we could build a top-notch roster in two offseasons, but it was probably unrealistic.

2. For all his success last year, Daboll doesn't walk on water (and to be fair, only a small minority of fans probably thought he did). The way his staff has been exposed vs. Philly and Dallas these last 2 games is troubling. But you're not evaluated on how badly you fall (Parcells and Coughlin had plenty of flat-on-your-face moments), but how quickly you can get back up, stay the course, and continue to make the right decisions. That's what we'll find out moving forward.

I'm sure some weren't enthused about Daboll's measured tone in interviews this week. Who wants to hear "we own it and move on" when they want answers, heads to roll, or both? Fans can afford to get hyperbolic about a terrible loss to a hated division rival. Schoen and Daboll shouldn't. If you believe in what you're doing, you stay consistent in your approach, and that seems to be their message to the team right now. Even the best, most stable franchises in this league go through ups and downs. (Ask Kyle Shanahan, coach of the current best team in the league, how fun it was to go 4-12 in Year 2 and 6-10 in Year 4.) Either you believe in the type of stability Schoen and Daboll are trying to provide, or you don't. Either way, the collective results over time will tell.

Last year was 90% plus Daboll. Schoen was too constrained to really do much and it's way too early to have a strong view on his drafts.

I do think we had a pretty poor off-season, however.

In comment 16206951 US1 Giants said:

Quote:

In comment 16206946 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 16206941 US1 Giants said: Quote: In comment 16206931 Hammer said: Quote: Holy overreaction batman. Thibodeaux & Neal may be big misses with top 10 picks. Hope not. Thibodeaux had a game-winning sack-fumble against the ravens, and a sack-fumble-TD against the Commanders just last season. He is not a miss. He some plays, but does not make a lot of plays. Expect more from a top-10 pick.

Maybe you should learn wtf you are watching and what exactly he’s asked to do in winks system

You should delete this before you go down as the op of one of the stupidest over reaction thread of the year

I feel it’s unfair to ask this question after just one game into the new season. Especially given what they did last season with very little to work with.

They inherited a complete mess that were still paying for. This will be the first offseason with flexibility and I appreciate that they haven’t mortgaged the future to win immediately.

They get another year at least.

Thibs & Neal gotta start living up to their draft pick status. Like ASAP.

I think they are. Time will tell.

I think Thibs will be a good player for many years. I’ll take good with a top-10 pick, it’s hard to get great and Schoen needs time and a few more drafts.

I’m not very confident in Neal as a tackle. Like the person, think he works hard and has talent. I said this last year and got roasted here - but his best position may be guard. Again, time will tell.

Off of one season and one game of season two - hell yeah they are the right guys.

Remember December 2021 and the posts here on how bad the roster is and will take 3-4 years to upgrade? True, can't afford #1 busts. Seems like other teams just know how to pick players. Need to allow three years and hopeful acquisitions that prove to be true players before passing judgement.

Question: If Daboll must go does this mean Schoen is no good and needs to go too?

For us in game 1 was the lack of playing time for the starters all preseason. A couple of huge mistakes and then the game snowballed out of control. Giants are not as bad as they looked that game. I expect that these players are still rounding into game form, coaches too.

That said... our OL and special teams scares the hell out of me for every game this season.

destined to lose. the important thing is that he not lose himself during the heat of battle.

or something like that. i don't know, i just saw it on Friday Night Lights.

yes, they are the right guys.

Gone after one terrible game?

The mistake is on us, we all underestimated the talent of the Dallas defense and how tough it is. Further, we overestimated the readiness of this OL to face what is a premier defensive front in the NFL week 1.

Finally, just remember, this is year 2 of this regime. A lot of the young players and talent they brought in, any expectation that they are just going to start the season at their peak NFL performance right away, that's a foolhardy expectation.

Perhaps expectations need to be managed for what can be accomplished in year 2 of this regime a little. And by week 12, I'm hopeful that there will be signs that this team is a better team than what we finished the 2022 season with.

But this team is coming off a playoff season, a season in which they outperformed (greatly) expectations. That's a feather in the cap of Daboll & Schoen and the entire staff. To question everything after one loss, as bad as that loss was, and it was the worst loss I've witnessed in my life, with memories of Giants' games going back 37 years, it's still just one game. Given what has been accomplished with a much worse roster on paper last year, everyone should still be optimistic about the future of the organization under the current leadership.

That game didn't cause me to question whether or not Daboll & Schoen were the right guys at all. I'm convinced they are absolutely the right men to take the organization forward.

And all that said, it won't matter if certain players can't execute to a high enough level to win. But that doesn't mean they are the problem, either.

I'm willing to let them work with DJ and craft this team over the course of 2 more seasons at least. And if it doesn't work with DJ...I want them to be in place for the next guy, because I believe this is the right leadership for the organization.

He had a good season, but obviously we can see that it was all a fluke now. I wonder if Shurmur or MacAdoo would be available?

But they’ll be given at least 2 more years to prove that they are the right guys

But even good GMs miss sometimes, and missing on 2 top 10 picks (jury still out), will set this rebuild back.

are, and based on the last game last season (-78 to 7) and the first game this season both top draft round players with the same disappearing deficits are Neal and Thibs. These two, appointed to key, front line positions,.......both of them, sorry to say have Jane Mansfield syndrome.......both look like great busts.

Than any other loss. Weather, circumstance and possibly a talent gap at specific opposing positions led to a complete meltdown. I am not blaming the GM and coach one game into the season.

This year will come down to whether Schoen chose right when investing heavily in the pass catchers, and betting his previous work would pay off on the offensive line.

.

In comment 16207053 armstead98 said:

Quote:

They inherited a complete mess that were still paying for. This will be the first offseason with flexibility and I appreciate that they haven’t mortgaged the future to win immediately. They get another year at least.

No they didn't.

Having said that yeah you would think they get at least another year barring a complete embarrassment of a Mcadoo level meltdown. I do think the prep for the game was terrible, but Daboll seems like the type of guy who can adapt, unlike Mcadoo and Judge.

Hopefully.

Tonight.

Easily one of the dumbest threads ever on BBI. And after 21 years here that's saying something. JFC. Maybe wait a season or even like 9-10 games. Good God.

since his system I believe uses a lot of man coverage, while most of the league has gone away from that towards more zone.

Also, I wonder if a story I heard about Buddy Ryan relates to Wink. The way the player told it, Buddy Ryan made practices difficult on the offense. He essentially wanted his defense to win every snap in practice. So the offense had a hard time preparing because Ryan would call defenses that the team would never face. The offense didn't get much of a chance to work against a normal defense because of it. They player said the offense would get off to a slow start at the beginning of the season.

Could practicing against Wink's unique defense, along with, fewer practices, less preseason games and starters playing less in the summer be an issue?

In comment 16206988 Grey Pilgrim said:

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...

Yeah, they were lucky they didn’t have to play Dallas last year. 🙄

In comment 16207035 BrettNYG10 said:

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Last year was 90% plus Daboll. Schoen was too constrained to really do much and it's way too early to have a strong view on his drafts. I do think we had a pretty poor off-season, however.

Can you provide some details on where you how "they had a poor job this off-season?"

shit all over the NY fan base. Let’s wait a few weeks before we go into panic mode. Sweet Lord.

In comment 16207071 Johnny5 said:

Quote:

For us in game 1 was the lack of playing time for the starters all preseason. A couple of huge mistakes and then the game snowballed out of control. Giants are not as bad as they looked that game. I expect that these players are still rounding into game form, coaches too. That said... our OL and special teams scares the hell out of me for every game this season.

100% agree. I mean the Bengals looked like they had a rookie QB and the Bills lost to Zach Wilson. Shit happens, they had a horrible first week. Hopefully that was the slap upside the head they needed to check any egos and get down to business.

Have won week one.

(Sarcasm off).

.

.

They still haven't put their stamp on the team.

Daniel Jones: Gettleman/Shurmur
Saquon Barkley: Gettleman/Shurmur
Andrew Thomas: Gettleman/Judge
Dexter Lawrence: Gettleman/Shurmur

Schoen was cap strapped this year. And it's way too early to evaluate either the 2022 and 2023 drafts.

Here's what I do know. After the QB sneak game to end the 2021 season, we were told on BBI it would take 3+ years to field a competitive team. Yet, Daboll coached this team to not only a playoff spot, but a playoff win the following year.

I think Jones was overpaid, but I'm also aware that the contract is structured to protect NYG if he struggles after the 2024 season.

I would not get rid of them until they have the opportunity to draft their own QB. Why does Gettleman get the opportunity to draft a franchise QB, but Reese and Schoen don't? That's ridiculous. Meanwhile Joe Douglas has had 3 QB swings.

This regime is 10-9-1 so far which is still significantly better than anyone expected. Let's pump the brakes.

I think things started before kickoff. After all the hype, rather than a raucous blue-out, the Giants ran out of the tunnel to yawns because of the rain. Someone at the game can say whether there were ever more than 2/3s of the crowd in their seats cause it didn't look that way.

The post about the dome applies to the fans too.

The rain followed by the FG block and pick-6 negated the home field advantage which, in a game like this, makes it a home field disadvantage.

No need to recount the disaster any more.

Ed Smith (briefly NFL TE) who covers the Cards said (as we all know) under the current CBA the 1st month is pre-season, and the one unit that needs cohesive pre-season work more than any is the OL. And he was talking about the Cards. And with Neal's concussion it was far worse for the Giants.

It's far to question the ongoing rotation during pre-season. Maybe we'll see the fruits of that on Sunday. Maybe Dabs wishes he didn't do it now. Who knows.

In a month this is a fair question about Daboll. Not Schoen though.

in what regard?

got max return on investment given the talent they had.

this just shows, personnel are a work in progress. not a total rebuild but some key spots still in need of upgrade

but I thought the chip blocks by the RBs were less than solid.
And pass protect.

Think there is a lot to be said about a real man RB protecting the QB. Doesn't necessarily have to be an oversized player like Jacobs either.

They have earned far more than one poor game's grace period after what they were able to do last year.

It doesn't mean however, that they are above criticism. Daboll did not have the team ready to play at all. Schoen was obsessed with speed and weapons this offseason and perhaps neglected the Oline (despite JMS). And, though rookies really need 3 years for a full evaluation, we have a 5th, 7th and second round pick that have yet to contribute as much as we thought and real question marks surrounding pick 7 so far.

Let's see what they can do. If Daboll is who we think he is, then they should come out with a completely different performance this Sunday. I think they should be better.

The OP asks a fair question since the question really has not been answered. Last year was a good year, but it was one year. To me it’s still “wait and see”.

In comment 16207136 Tom in NY said:

Quote:

In comment 16207035 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Last year was 90% plus Daboll. Schoen was too constrained to really do much and it's way too early to have a strong view on his drafts. I do think we had a pretty poor off-season, however. Can you provide some details on where you how "they had a poor job this off-season?"

Sure. First, I did not like the Jones contract. I think the key to contending in the NFL is through top-tier passing production--I'd point you to the teams that make the championship games over the past five years as evidence. Daniel Jones has shown a lot of good things in the NFL--an elite runner at the QB position, the ability to mitigate turnovers, etc.--but he has not shown the ability to be an elite passer in the NFL over the course of a season. His promising rookie season was mired with turnovers. His passing production (TD/yards) over the prior three seasons is bottom for a starter. Not average, not below-average, bottom five.

I hear everyone on the surroundings (I'll get to this in a second). But I can't think of a QB that has had three years in a row of anemic production to take the next step. I think by year four you're pretty much what you're going to be as QB.

I thought the Giants were in a poor strategic position coming off a surprising season where a lot of things went right, and I think they stepped into a trap and overpaid Jones. I posted this before:

Quote:

Daniel Jones is the *only QB in the modern passing era* to play 10+ games for 3 consecutive years and throw fewer TDs than games played every year: -2020: 14 games played… 11 pass TDs -2021: 11 games played… 10 pass TDs -2022: 16 games played… 15 pass TDs And is now the first to: - sign for $20M+/yr - after playing 15+ games - and throw less than 20 TDs there hasn't been another QB to sign for even $10M+/yr after playing 12+ games & throwing only 15 TDs (as Jones did)

I think signing Jones to that amount of money was insane. I think last season--a fun playoff year--was based much more on elite coaching and a bit of luck and that this team remains talent deficient.

Second, signing a QB to $40+ million is a win-now move. There's no 'we are rebuilding for three years, etc.' It's to win now. But the only major move to upgrade weapons was trading for Waller, an over 30 frequently injured tight end. Our two best weapons are two guys who are injury-prone (and the other--Barkley--is likely to take a step back from 2022).

Put Jones aside entirely for a second, this isn't enough to compete unless you have Mahomes. Go back to my first point about how I think you win in the NFL. And then compare our weapons to the Eagles, Cowboys, Bengals, Niners, etc.

I view this off-season as an attempt to stay relevant--to fight for a playoff spot in a terrible NFC--rather than an attempt to build a contend and win championships.

In comment 16207289 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

In comment 16207136 Tom in NY said: Quote: In comment 16207035 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Last year was 90% plus Daboll. Schoen was too constrained to really do much and it's way too early to have a strong view on his drafts. I do think we had a pretty poor off-season, however. Can you provide some details on where you how "they had a poor job this off-season?" Sure. First, I did not like the Jones contract. I think the key to contending in the NFL is through top-tier passing production--I'd point you to the teams that make the championship games over the past five years as evidence. Daniel Jones has shown a lot of good things in the NFL--an elite runner at the QB position, the ability to mitigate turnovers, etc.--but he has not shown the ability to be an elite passer in the NFL over the course of a season. His promising rookie season was mired with turnovers. His passing production (TD/yards) over the prior three seasons is bottom for a starter. Not average, not below-average, bottom five. I hear everyone on the surroundings (I'll get to this in a second). But I can't think of a QB that has had three years in a row of anemic production to take the next step. I think by year four you're pretty much what you're going to be as QB. I thought the Giants were in a poor strategic position coming off a surprising season where a lot of things went right, and I think they stepped into a trap and overpaid Jones. I posted this before: Quote: Daniel Jones is the *only QB in the modern passing era* to play 10+ games for 3 consecutive years and throw fewer TDs than games played every year: -2020: 14 games played… 11 pass TDs -2021: 11 games played… 10 pass TDs -2022: 16 games played… 15 pass TDs And is now the first to: - sign for $20M+/yr - after playing 15+ games - and throw less than 20 TDs there hasn't been another QB to sign for even $10M+/yr after playing 12+ games & throwing only 15 TDs (as Jones did) I think signing Jones to that amount of money was insane. I think last season--a fun playoff year--was based much more on elite coaching and a bit of luck and that this team remains talent deficient. Second, signing a QB to $40+ million is a win-now move. There's no 'we are rebuilding for three years, etc.' It's to win now. But the only major move to upgrade weapons was trading for Waller, an over 30 frequently injured tight end. Our two best weapons are two guys who are injury-prone (and the other--Barkley--is likely to take a step back from 2022). Put Jones aside entirely for a second, this isn't enough to compete unless you have Mahomes. Go back to my first point about how I think you win in the NFL. And then compare our weapons to the Eagles, Cowboys, Bengals, Niners, etc. I view this off-season as an attempt to stay relevant--to fight for a playoff spot in a terrible NFC--rather than an attempt to build a contend and win championships.

TL;DR

I get what people say about seeing the field and not having the quick synapses of the top tier QBs, I think those are fair arguments. But the guy can throw the ball when he has even a little bit of time. It's not like we have never seen the guy throw a good or great ball. And more importantly when he has confidence in what's up front. We just don't seem to be able to give any QBs time against any kind of decent pass rush, for how many years now? It's really sickening. Actually it's so far beyond sickening at this point. I was terrified to watch that game, because I knew their DL was going to cause us problems, I really didn't think we had any shot to beat Dallas 1st game of the season (I just had no idea it would be THAT bad... nobody did).

That said, think about the stage Daboll set for this game by hardly playing his starters together literally the WHOLE preseason. With a rookie center and a RT that has only proven so far that he sucks. Against a defense that has soundly kicked our OL (and whole offense's) ass for the last 8 years. And then sprinkle in a monsoon on top of that. This game was literally the perfect storm. As someone said (Uber maybe?) now we need to see how these guys respond. I'm not ready to throw them to the wolves after one game, hell no. But If we lose to the Cardinals? Oopha. Ask me then... lol

In comment 16207221 bc4life said:

Quote:

but I thought the chip blocks by the RBs were less than solid. And pass protect. Think there is a lot to be said about a real man RB protecting the QB. Doesn't necessarily have to be an oversized player like Jacobs either.

I really would have liked a a good pass blocking fullback the way this team is composed. Barring that helping out Neal with Bellinger before he got his confidence totally destroyed. Waller is not ideal for this team, maybe almost useless.

Johnny, I have zero doubts about Jones' physical abilities. Joe Burrow is, in my view, the second best QB in the league and I think Jones has superior physical skills to him. I think the stuff that separates the top ten guys from the bottom 20 is mental. Some call it processing speed, football IQ, whatever.

I don't believe Jones is ever going to be an elite passer in the NFL. But what you wrote goes to my second point. If you are a believer in Jones, I don't see how you could be happy with this off-season. It wasn't enough. I think our skill position guys, with a healthy Barkley and Waller, are probably 'fine' but not great. The OL looks like a dumpster fire but I think it will get better as the year goes on. But excluding the QB, I think this is a talent deficient offense.

Is 12th in the NFL. In two years it will probably be exactly median. Complaining about his salary is like my dear departed grandad complaining about pizza at $1 a slice 50 years ago because it was 10 cents when he grew up.

In his last pre-season presser Schoen said "it takes a few weeks into the regular season to figure out who the team is, how we’re going to react when adversity strikes...."

Jones has always handled adversity well. He's proven that. The rest of the team, we'll know more tomorrow night - we're ahead of Schoen's schedule.

That analogy is incredibly poor. I'm saying that amount for Jones' proven skill set is not worth it. Not that no QB is worth that much.

I also don't really get the idea Jones handles adversity well because the second things go badly the army of excuses blaming everyone but him comes out.

In comment 16207332 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

Johnny, I have zero doubts about Jones' physical abilities. Joe Burrow is, in my view, the second best QB in the league and I think Jones has superior physical skills to him. I think the stuff that separates the top ten guys from the bottom 20 is mental. Some call it processing speed, football IQ, whatever. I don't believe Jones is ever going to be an elite passer in the NFL. But what you wrote goes to my second point. If you are a believer in Jones, I don't see how you could be happy with this off-season. It wasn't enough. I think our skill position guys, with a healthy Barkley and Waller, are probably 'fine' but not great. The OL looks like a dumpster fire but I think it will get better as the year goes on. But excluding the QB, I think this is a talent deficient offense.

I 100% agree with your second point. And I also like Burrow as 1-2 with Mahomes (I flip flop on which is which lol).

In comment 16207348 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

That analogy is incredibly poor. I'm saying that amount for Jones' proven skill set is not worth it. Not that no QB is worth that much. I also don't really get the idea Jones handles adversity well because the second things go badly the army of excuses blaming everyone but him comes out.

Then you're saying that Jones is not an average NFL starting QB. Because that's what one costs in 2023. It'll be $50 million AAV soon.

after a fast start last season, we went something 3-5-1. Everyone is forgetting about the beatdown in Philadelphia in the playoffs followed by the debacle this past Sunday. So, no, it isn't one game.

Personally, I like these guys. I think they have made some mistakes, and they haven't shown themselves to be particularly brilliant drafters but they seem to recognize problems and keep punching and trying different stuff. We'll see. Not ready to write them off yet.

And just imagined all of this, but didn’t Daboll find a way to take a pretty bad roster to the playoffs last year, win a game, then also win coach of the year???

As for Schoen, we knew all along that with short time to prepare and little experience with his own scouting staff that last years draft would be tough, but this year he pulled starters out of the 1st, 2nd, and 6th round as well as contributors out of the 3rd and 7th. Seems like a pretty damn good draft for a GM for me.

By the way, go back and watch that game last week again and look for bright spots. You’ll find quickly Banks, Schmitz and Riley were on that list, Hawkins had one bad penalty but played well otherwise.

Please, make this stop….

In comment 16207365 HBart said:

Quote:

In comment 16207348 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: That analogy is incredibly poor. I'm saying that amount for Jones' proven skill set is not worth it. Not that no QB is worth that much. I also don't really get the idea Jones handles adversity well because the second things go badly the army of excuses blaming everyone but him comes out. Then you're saying that Jones is not an average NFL starting QB. Because that's what one costs in 2023. It'll be $50 million AAV soon.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that market as a whole is not worth playing in, especially with a team far away from contention.

I think if you are making that sort of commitment, you better be in a position to compete for a Super Bowl.

Pretty clear that the loss has stigmatized all of us fans. We just did not expect a non-competitive game. Others have already shared the obvious...that the first drive ending the way it did somehow ended the night. We drove....Jones made smart decisions to evade the rush and get us in position to score...then the AT false start and everything after that was a disaster. The OL is and will continue to be a concern until its not. I hope and also think that starts tomorrow even if AT is on the bench. Neal and Glow blew up the chance to really evaluate how good or bad we will be with their play. Neither will be that bad tomorrow for sure...regardless of the scheme deployed to make it happen again. I am not sure how many wins I would put on this team going forward as a guess but I know we will be a better team than last year when we game managed our way through the year. We are just better in both big phases (O and D)...less sure about specials frankly...no return game I am confident in. Barkley remains a stud to deploy in the run game...the game conditions wont skew as bad as they were Sun nt, both Neal and Glow are not as bad as they showed out and we have speed on both sides of the ball finally. I remain optimistic we win going away against the cards and see a much more representative version of our team against the Niners the following week. We may lose that game but I genuinely believe it will be a tight fought battle that either team can win. Jones will be tested again as their D line is solid. But they have only a game manager as their QB and it will be up to Jones to tilt the scale. We beat our next 2 opponents and the sting of 40-0 is totally erased as anomaly. Not a pie in the sky optimist but I am willing to write off the disaster that was Sun nt as not representative of what this team will be. We will be good

I am of the opinion that you know if a QB is very talented by the beginning of their 3rd year in today’s NFL. You have to go back early in Drew Bree’s’ career to find an exception and a guy who took a bit longer to emerge.

But I think DJ may be an exception because he was playing genuinely good football at the end of last season. (I didn’t think what he did last September and October was enough to resign him.) He’s now had two clunkers in a row. This game tomorrow is as important for Jones as it is for the Giants. I want to see fast decisionmaking, field vision and accurate passing, like in the Vikings games last season.

Like Uber wrote, winning isn’t enough. If Jones doesnt play well Sunday, the level of argument on BBI is going to explode. And the entire future of the franchise will be in doubt.

after last week, but this is too soon. Talk to me after next season.

Hoping the lack of playing time in preseason was a big part of the problem on the OL.

Some warning signs but plenty of time still to turn it around.

NFCE football is not kind to those without quality OL play.

In comment 16207398 cosmicj said:

Quote:

I am of the opinion that you know if a QB is very talented by the beginning of their 3rd year in today’s NFL. You have to go back early in Drew Bree’s’ career to find an exception and a guy who took a bit longer to emerge. But I think DJ may be an exception because he was playing genuinely good football at the end of last season. (I didn’t think what he did last September and October was enough to resign him.) He’s now had two clunkers in a row. This game tomorrow is as important for Jones as it is for the Giants. I want to see fast decisionmaking, field vision and accurate passing, like in the Vikings games last season. Like Uber wrote, winning isn’t enough. If Jones doesnt play well Sunday, the level of argument on BBI is going to explode. And the entire future of the franchise will be in doubt.

I agree--outside of Brees and maybe Kerry Collins are there examples of guys who really morphed into new QBs after their first few seasons? Even Eli was roughly what he was the rest of his career (outside of 2011) in his second season-- a boom/bust player who put up a lot of TDs and INTs but was as good as anyone on his best day. He improved but he never really catapulted from the top ten range outside of 2011.

I hear people on the weapons, but why aren't there other examples of guys who were stuck in shit situations and then gone on to be elite later on? Even Brees was a Pro Bowler in San Diego.

I thought Jones was great against the Colts and Vikings. But I think those games are outliers, he's had them in previous seasons as well.

In comment 16207192 Sean said:

Quote:

They still haven't put their stamp on the team. Daniel Jones: Gettleman/Shurmur Saquon Barkley: Gettleman/Shurmur Andrew Thomas: Gettleman/Judge Dexter Lawrence: Gettleman/Shurmur Schoen was cap strapped this year. And it's way too early to evaluate either the 2022 and 2023 drafts. Here's what I do know. After the QB sneak game to end the 2021 season, we were told on BBI it would take 3+ years to field a competitive team. Yet, Daboll coached this team to not only a playoff spot, but a playoff win the following year. I think Jones was overpaid, but I'm also aware that the contract is structured to protect NYG if he struggles after the 2024 season. I would not get rid of them until they have the opportunity to draft their own QB. Why does Gettleman get the opportunity to draft a franchise QB, but Reese and Schoen don't? That's ridiculous. Meanwhile Joe Douglas has had 3 QB swings. This regime is 10-9-1 so far which is still significantly better than anyone expected. Let's pump the brakes.

I disagree with one part of this:

Daniel Jones: Gettleman/Shurmur
Saquon Barkley: Gettleman/Shurmur
Andrew Thomas: Gettleman/Judge
Dexter Lawrence: Gettleman/Shurmur

Schoen resigned all 4 of them. They're Schoen guys now.

And yeah, it is curious Reese never got the chance to draft a QB. I guess the Giants would claim the one game of Geno Smith starting before he got canned was his chance.

We had largely the same roster last year as the year before. And played much better. That is hard data that our coaching staff is great.

Now applying the same logic to Jones, who like many players improved last year with the new coaches it is fair to say that this group is fairly scheme dependent.

I do not know how on earth people want to point fingers at a coach who made MANY players better vs. a player who was one of those many players and looked awful before those coaches

If the initial game plan works, Jones can play loose and it highlights his athletic talents/opens up the playbook.

If they don't or god forbid an important play goes the other way (which is what we saw) Jones tightens up and so does the playbook. They become easy to defend.

When you have a QB who reads the field well and you can trust to make good decisions regardless of game flow you can punish the blitz. Get your receivers into hot routes, roll away from pressure if you can anticipate. Stand in the pocket and deliver a throw even if you know you are going to get hit.

I'm not sure if the excuse acrobats understand this but if you are sitting there saying Jones is facing "impossible" circumstances his teammates are feeling that too. That the player taking up almost 20% of our cap isn't going to lift them up. How that isn't a logical place to point at that level of embarrassment is beyond me

I'd love to know what that Giants coaches could have called to move the ball better when you have a QB throwing it behind receivers, into triple coverage and on one occasion right to the opposing safety.

If you are Joe Burrow's coach, you certainly have options with poor protection. But I imagine BD and staff were finding calling the right offense just as "impossible" as fans thought of Jones ability to succeed.

But by the way, this is what made not franchising and ESPECIALLY overpaying Jones such a mistake.

OL play is down in the NFL you should be paying the guy that finds opportunities to make plays even in horrible circumstances or at the very least when they do get opportunities not completely blundering them because that swell chap is having a hard day :(

FYI I'd bet this horrible matchup was just as known to the coaches and Jones as it was to me in a Cowboys thread last month:

Quote:

Their front 7 is a horrible matchup for us NoGainDayne : 8/6/2023 12:10 pm : link until proven otherwise. People like to focus on how overrated the Cowboys are. And that may be so. But we are worse than them until proven otherwise due to this.

So you'd think maybe, at home, our $40M man could perhaps get himself mentally ready for that tough battle not victimized by the circumstances.

BD's gameplan's literally pulled Jones out of the bust pile and now if he can't drag him to the Pro Bowl and earn him his contract he's no good? Give me a break.

And before anyone wants to give Jones too much credit for that all we heard is how hard of a worker Jones was for 3 years and he literally got worse so it wasn't exactly his study habits that were helping him.

If Jones figures out how to see a blitz at the line and figure out where he wants to go to the ball we will have a chance against great defenses.

Until then we will see him light up the bad/mediocre ones (so long as the team starts well) and watch everyone around here heap praise on him.

Then refuse to give him blame during the losses.

I've never seen anything like this in sports. The guy is taking up a sizable chunk of our cap, playing the most important position in team sports and people want to act like he is only impacting in the wins. (Or close losses with "heroic" efforts)

.
So how do we match up with the cowboys? - ( New Window )

Of recent memory, Alex Smith.

19 TD's total in his first three years and missed the fourth year due to injury.

32 TD's passing the next two years combined. It was not until 2011, when he finally got a better HC and OC, did he finally look acceptable.

In comment 16207536 Toth029 said:

Quote:

Of recent memory, Alex Smith. 19 TD's total in his first three years and missed the fourth year due to injury. 32 TD's passing the next two years combined. It was not until 2011, when he finally got a better HC and OC, did he finally look acceptable.

Check out Phil Simms’ stats his first four seasons…

My fucking Christ. What a shit ass post.

In comment 16207536 Toth029 said:

Quote:

Of recent memory, Alex Smith. 19 TD's total in his first three years and missed the fourth year due to injury. 32 TD's passing the next two years combined. It was not until 2011, when he finally got a better HC and OC, did he finally look acceptable.

Smith's a good one. I actually think he is a great Jones comp--does a lot of things well but doesn't produce great passing production.

Smith wasn't elite but he was a good QB. But he was kind of that line where you're always hoping to upgrade.

In comment 16207539 BigBlueShock said:

Quote:

In comment 16207536 Toth029 said: Quote: Of recent memory, Alex Smith. 19 TD's total in his first three years and missed the fourth year due to injury. 32 TD's passing the next two years combined. It was not until 2011, when he finally got a better HC and OC, did he finally look acceptable. Check out Phil Simms’ stats his first four seasons…

First five; didn't he miss 1982?

In comment 16207368 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

after a fast start last season, we went something 3-5-1. Everyone is forgetting about the beatdown in Philadelphia in the playoffs followed by the debacle this past Sunday. So, no, it isn't one game.

It seems clear we haven't actually learned anything from last season then.

Philadelphia won 14 games and went to the super bowl-again- last year. They outgun the Giants on talent wildly, and they showed this last year.

That beatdown isn't some kind of operational failure that reflects poorly against expectations. The giants aren't on their level.

get another recap of NGD's manifesto that was completely full of shit?

Can we read more about Jones lack of confidence or his inability to live up to a Contract?

Fucking imbecile.

After BBIers. Doesn’t everyone?

BBI'ers, but you might want to wonder why the fuck someone would post a 10 paragraph diatribe saying he knows better than everyone else.

He's a fucking blowhard that calls everyone else things like "Luddites" and other assorted shit.