about his big new contract, about the strength of his arm, about his pocket presence, about his vision downfield... or about anything else, I just wanted to remind you that last season, Sy'56 awarded this guy 7 STUD awards, and he will get another one after his performance yesterday. He put the team on his back ending up with over 300 yards passing (70% completion rate) and picked up an additional 60 yards with his legs running for crucial 1st downs (and not to mention a probable pick-6 off of Saquon Barkley's hands if not for Daniel Jones' hustle.)
He's never going to be Aaron Rodgers nor Patrick Mahomes nor Joe Burrow nor any other great QB you want to name. But Daniel Jones in only his second season under Brian Daboll has become THE ONE indispensable player on the New York Giants. Without him, the Giants do not get a sniff at the playoffs last season and they would be sitting at 0-2 as I post this thread.
He only gets paid above average if he performs.
He was generally playing consistently good football by the end of 2020.
-He pulled his hammy against the Bengals.
-Then he had his ankle destroyed when he came back for that game against the Cards.
In 2021 he was concussed against Dallas before the neck injury that ended his season.
He was generally playing consistently good football by the end of 2020.
-He pulled his hammy against the Bengals.
-Then he had his ankle destroyed when he came back for that game against the Cards.
In 2021 he was concussed against Dallas before the neck injury that ended his season.
If Jones had not gotten hurt in 2021, he might have been able to save Judge’s job (maybe Gettleman’s too). Now isn’t that a sobering thought?
The problems are the OL, Kafka and getting the mix of WRs right.
Couple throws were calling out was that strike to Hodgins in the end zone, and the rollout pass to Saquon where it was perfectly placed for Barkley to catch on the run with a head of steam and reach out for the pylon.
LOL - yes lets judge Jones on 3 days rest, on the road down at least 2 starters, against the best D in football. Sounds fair
bw in dc : 11:03 am : link : reply
redeemed himself yesterday and saved the season for now.
The problems are the OL, Kafka and getting the mix of WRs right.
PLUS a defense that doesn't yet like to wrap up on any tackle.
I wouldn’t necessarily play up 7 ‘stud’ awards from Sy though. One could argue a top flight QB should get a majority of the ‘stud’ awards. We need to see him stay healthy, replicate the success of last year re ball security, being a gamer, AND do more downfield now that he has better weapons. He’s got the makeup and the tools, he’s top 10 in those departments for sure. Now we need to see his performance continue to ascend for a second successive season.
_______________________________________
If Jones had not gotten hurt in 2021, he might have been able to save Judge’s job (maybe Gettleman’s too). Now isn’t that a sobering thought?
I think DG might've been retiring, but his replacement would've come from in house and you're right about Judge.
They were somewhat competitive with Jones and when he went down the clown show came to town.
Very scary
Thank you, Daniel's neck. You took one for the team!
It was really stupid to overreact to the Dallas game, and we should't overreact to one half against Arizona. Jones has an entire season to prove that he's worth the 40M.
Herbert is playing way better this year as a whole than he did last year. And Lawrence looked great week 1...not so great week 2. It's a maturation process with young QBs.
That's what I thought as well.
I'd say the road playoff win was. But yes, given we were staring at 0-3, his performance saves us "for now."
I'm not writing a L just yet on Thursday. Might as well see if we can stay in the game long enough to make it interesting.
Yup. And many forget how ordinary even guys like Brady became when they faced a little consistent pressure
Have you seen Burrows stats for his career?
I've been in and out on this guy about 18 times because he sucks you in and then . . . Anyone know which Jones is showing up on Thursday?
OL, scheme, and playmakers have a lot more to do with QB stats than folks like to admit.
In comment 16211481 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
I'm a little sick of the decisive "he's not a top 10", "he's not a top 5"...Josh Allen, Burrow, Hurts -- they're supposed to be galaxies away? I'm not seeing that. All are human, and it's not a rigid list - it's fluid. Jones is in the mix for sure. I'm not trashing the elite QBs - but WTF? Jones did what elite QBs do yesterday. If Hyatt is a beast, Waller lives up to expectations, Slayton, Robinson, Shep - with a serviceable O-line - Jones can definitely make the top 3. And even then, who knows - maybe its just top 3 for that year, and he slides down. Nothing is permanent. But Jones is a sure talent.
Have you seen Burrows stats for his career?
Second half was somebody else. He was fired up and showed emotion. He led, like the leader of the team is supposed to.
Keep it up Mr. Jones.
Lot of TBD but there have plenty of signs he can still grow and be one of those QB's you need in the playoffs as the team gets better around him imv.
One where he hid the ball and rolled got stuffed.
Quick hitters!!
I've been in and out on this guy about 18 times because he sucks you in and then . . . Anyone know which Jones is showing up on Thursday?
I'm almost done with the conversations on him. A large contingent wants to give him all the credit for success and none of the blame for failure.
To me yesterday was complete proof that it isn't his teammates holding him back but his own mental state.
This is what I've been suspecting and I'm not sure how to look at it any other way.
I'd also go farther to say I'd rather bet on someone who is always in the right place mentally with less athletic ability than the reverse...
In the neverending quest to question his confidence, you just continue to look like an ignorant putz.
Wow. Just Wow.
I’m very curious to know what they changed defensively. They went from looking like an FCS team vs Bama to a good defense.
To me yesterday was complete proof that it isn't his teammates holding him back but his own mental state.
Maybe Jones is feeling the pressure of the contract and/or trying to take the team to the next level. Perhaps that was behind the piss poor effort in the first half yesterday. Just trying to figure our the Jekyll/Hyde results yesterday...
But you have to give enormous credit to Daboll for pressing the right buttons on Jones. I'm absolutely certain he took over play calling and convinced Jones to just let it fly and don't worry about failing further.
might improve his mental state some.
Quote:
To me yesterday was complete proof that it isn't his teammates holding him back but his own mental state.
Maybe Jones is feeling the pressure of the contract and/or trying to take the team to the next level. Perhaps that was behind the piss poor effort in the first half yesterday. Just trying to figure our the Jekyll/Hyde results yesterday...
But you have to give enormous credit to Daboll for pressing the right buttons on Jones. I'm absolutely certain he took over play calling and convinced Jones to just let it fly and don't worry about failing further.
He had Slayton and Hyatt past the defense in the first half and time to hit both of them. That is just the glaring times.
I think it is less the playcalling and to your point the "buttons" are the same as the mental state. He came out confident in the 2nd half and fired on all cylinders.
Which was pretty much the opposite of the player we saw in the first.
I do think that is why we saw a different Jones last year BD is far better than any other coach at both calling the right game and getting him in the right headspace to succeed.
I'd love to see him keep the momentum against SF and no doubt there will be the excuse pile waiting for him if he doesn't but I do think that is the challenge with him. Ultimately we could get the matchups we want against a team like AZ for create a situation he can succeed.
I think the real question with him is can he create space for his receivers for a whole game if there isn't much against a good defense and I think the jury is out on that. (As it is for many QBs)
But I think people talk about him as if that isn't the case and that is more of what they want than what we have any kind of data for.
The OL played much better in the second half giving Jones time to find his receivers.
Jones needs Barkley to have effective play action and RPO offense.
Quote:
To me yesterday was complete proof that it isn't his teammates holding him back but his own mental state.
Maybe Jones is feeling the pressure of the contract and/or trying to take the team to the next level. Perhaps that was behind the piss poor effort in the first half yesterday. Just trying to figure our the Jekyll/Hyde results yesterday...
But you have to give enormous credit to Daboll for pressing the right buttons on Jones. I'm absolutely certain he took over play calling and convinced Jones to just let it fly and don't worry about failing further.
Totally agree on this. I call it the Judge effect aka, don't make mistakes and why I thought Jones might have been ruined. Daboll has to let Jones play freely, if the OL can work with him, Giants can win.
The silliness with theories like these is that you can twist any result to fit the theory. If Jones has a good game, you he was in a "mentally good place." If he has a bad game, then his confidence must have been shot. Ignoring all other factors in a QB's performance is oversimplistic and reductive.
+1. If he plays like in the 2nd half or close to it pretty regularly, very few will be complaining.
Second half was a football perfect storm. Jones got hot, which likely inspired the defense, and the Cardinals turned into a pumpkin after a Cinderela first half.
OL, scheme, and playmakers have a lot more to do with QB stats than folks like to admit.
In your esteemed opinion, has Burrow had good blocking throughout his career and is just now dealing with poor blocking for the first time?
Yeah, it’s always somebody else’s fault.
How about a more common sense view? Every Giants fan wants Jones to play well and, when he does, everyone gets excited about him - but when he doesn’t play well he is criticized. Quantum physics, man.
The silliness with theories like these is that you can twist any result to fit the theory. If Jones has a good game, you he was in a "mentally good place." If he has a bad game, then his confidence must have been shot. Ignoring all other factors in a QB's performance is oversimplistic and reductive.
He he was constantly in a state of fragility he wouldn't be in the NFL.
The real question is propensity, and it is fairly evident he has a higher propensity to not get the mental parts of the game right because that is really the only thing that fits with his production due to his very clear athletic talents.
If a machine is throwing a ball it is going to throw it the same every time until it breaks. So the fact that people cannot understand how a QB go from holding the ball too long and missing a bunch of receivers in the first half to nailing pretty much every throw in the 2nc half and not attribute that to his mental state is pretty astounding.
If you are wondering why you don't hear that conversation around most QBs it is because most of the greats have played since college or maybe longer with complete unwavering confidence.
Quote:
he's had streches like that before. He's also had stretches like the first half and last week although to his ardent supporters, it's always someone else's problem. You never know which Jones is going to show up or when.
I've been in and out on this guy about 18 times because he sucks you in and then . . . Anyone know which Jones is showing up on Thursday?
I'm almost done with the conversations on him. A large contingent wants to give him all the credit for success and none of the blame for failure.
To me yesterday was complete proof that it isn't his teammates holding him back but his own mental state.
This is what I've been suspecting and I'm not sure how to look at it any other way.
I'd also go farther to say I'd rather bet on someone who is always in the right place mentally with less athletic ability than the reverse...
It's interesting how "being in the right place mentally" and "having time to throw" go hand in hand.
I think he’s worth at least being the 14th highest paid, if not significantly higher.
Quote:
There is always going to be people that are gonna hate the guy and hold him to a standard that they don't hold any other quarterback in the league to. He will always be the guy that some people thought we overdrafted and was picked by Gettleman.
Yeah, it’s always somebody else’s fault.
How about a more common sense view? Every Giants fan wants Jones to play well and, when he does, everyone gets excited about him - but when he doesn’t play well he is criticized. Quantum physics, man.
He literally has had numerous people who have played with him saying he has been put in a shitty situation on this team. You can see his talent when other people are actually doing their jobs.
Word salad at its finest!
Yeah, there is always going to be people.
Do you expect Giants fans to hold all NFL quarterbacks to the same standard? Or, since they are rooting for their team to be better than all other teams in the NFL, might they also root for their QB to be better than all other QBs in the NFL?
Where did this cognitive disconnect come from? We want the Giants to be the best team in the league, right? Winning the Super Bowl is the point, isn't it? But somehow it's unfair to look at the individual players or the specific units and position groups and hold them to that same standard of wanting them to be better than their counterparts around the league?
How the fuck does the pom-pom posse think championships are won if not by having better football players than the other teams? So why wouldn't we hold our own players to a higher standard than the same players on other teams? Our expectations for the Giants are the only expectations that matter - we're actively rooting for players on other teams to fall short of their expectations, while we root for the Giants' players to exceed expectations.
IDGAF if it's unfair. I only care about the Giants winning a 5th Lombardi.
Quote:
If you are wondering why you don't hear that conversation around most QBs it is because most of the greats have played since college or maybe longer with complete unwavering confidence.
Word salad at its finest!
Hey, the quoted content hasn't been modified at all from its in situ post above. Progress!
Quote:
In comment 16211487 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
he's had streches like that before. He's also had stretches like the first half and last week although to his ardent supporters, it's always someone else's problem. You never know which Jones is going to show up or when.
I've been in and out on this guy about 18 times because he sucks you in and then . . . Anyone know which Jones is showing up on Thursday?
I'm almost done with the conversations on him. A large contingent wants to give him all the credit for success and none of the blame for failure.
To me yesterday was complete proof that it isn't his teammates holding him back but his own mental state.
This is what I've been suspecting and I'm not sure how to look at it any other way.
I'd also go farther to say I'd rather bet on someone who is always in the right place mentally with less athletic ability than the reverse...
It's interesting how "being in the right place mentally" and "having time to throw" go hand in hand.
So you think "having time to throw" had nothing to do with how he played?
He creates a lot of his own problems and solutions in these games and I'm not sure why more people can't see that.
If you are hitting on throws and making quick decisions teams are less likely to blitz and you actually put pressure on the defense and sometimes they make mistakes instead of the other way around.
When you look and play like you are overwhelmed you are going to get lots more pressure and also it makes it harder for your team to play well.
In the 1st half he had a wide open Slayton that he badly underthrew and Hyatt wide open that he held the ball and did not even give him a chance to make a play.
Quote:
as some here think, surely he would have gone in the tank once we were down by 21?
The silliness with theories like these is that you can twist any result to fit the theory. If Jones has a good game, you he was in a "mentally good place." If he has a bad game, then his confidence must have been shot. Ignoring all other factors in a QB's performance is oversimplistic and reductive.
He he was constantly in a state of fragility he wouldn't be in the NFL.
The real question is propensity, and it is fairly evident he has a higher propensity to not get the mental parts of the game right because that is really the only thing that fits with his production due to his very clear athletic talents.
If a machine is throwing a ball it is going to throw it the same every time until it breaks. So the fact that people cannot understand how a QB go from holding the ball too long and missing a bunch of receivers in the first half to nailing pretty much every throw in the 2nc half and not attribute that to his mental state is pretty astounding.
If you are wondering why you don't hear that conversation around most QBs it is because most of the greats have played since college or maybe longer with complete unwavering confidence.
Ah got it. So all of Jones's problems are due to mental weaknesses. Nothing else. It was his unfocused mental state that caused Campbell to drop passes, or Barkley to tip the ball into an INT, or for his OL to have crucial penalties.
Look, some people here go overboard making excuses for the guy, but to not even acknowledge the ENTIRE TEAM was crap in that first half, and to somehow conclude that Daniel Jones is the sole reason Daniel Jones didn't play well, well that sounds more astounding than anything else.
Quote:
There is always going to be people that are gonna hate the guy and hold him to a standard that they don't hold any other quarterback in the league to. He will always be the guy that some people thought we overdrafted and was picked by Gettleman.
Yeah, there is always going to be people.
Do you expect Giants fans to hold all NFL quarterbacks to the same standard? Or, since they are rooting for their team to be better than all other teams in the NFL, might they also root for their QB to be better than all other QBs in the NFL?
Where did this cognitive disconnect come from? We want the Giants to be the best team in the league, right? Winning the Super Bowl is the point, isn't it? But somehow it's unfair to look at the individual players or the specific units and position groups and hold them to that same standard of wanting them to be better than their counterparts around the league?
How the fuck does the pom-pom posse think championships are won if not by having better football players than the other teams? So why wouldn't we hold our own players to a higher standard than the same players on other teams? Our expectations for the Giants are the only expectations that matter - we're actively rooting for players on other teams to fall short of their expectations, while we root for the Giants' players to exceed expectations.
IDGAF if it's unfair. I only care about the Giants winning a 5th Lombardi.
The fact of the matter is I saw Mahomes make some throws behind his receivers and people on BBI blame the receiver for the drop. Jones makes the same throw to Hyatt and it was a terrible throw last week.
Quote:
of magical thinking, anything is possible. I want to understand this Utopia:
Quote:
If you are wondering why you don't hear that conversation around most QBs it is because most of the greats have played since college or maybe longer with complete unwavering confidence.
Word salad at its finest!
Hey, the quoted content hasn't been modified at all from its in situ post above. Progress!
LOL. Progress would actually be if you took to task the moronic take that Jones has lacked confidence from Day 1 on the way he chose a chair like you do the many takes you bash daily.
might improve his mental state some.
That is spot on. Were that same performance in a meaningful late season game with national coverage it would considered be one of the greatest halves of QB play ever.
I would say there are many quarterbacks in the NFL that could have done what he did in the second half yesterday
Quote:
In comment 16211633 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
of magical thinking, anything is possible. I want to understand this Utopia:
Quote:
If you are wondering why you don't hear that conversation around most QBs it is because most of the greats have played since college or maybe longer with complete unwavering confidence.
Word salad at its finest!
Hey, the quoted content hasn't been modified at all from its in situ post above. Progress!
LOL. Progress would actually be if you took to task the moronic take that Jones has lacked confidence from Day 1 on the way he chose a chair like you do the many takes you bash daily.
I don't agree with everything NGD posts, but at least he's never doctored up a post from the archives to try to win a message board argument.
Candidly, I don't really care what your measure of my progress is or should be. At one point, your opinion might have mattered, but not since your fake copy/paste nonsense.
Quote:
he's had streches like that before. He's also had stretches like the first half and last week although to his ardent supporters, it's always someone else's problem. You never know which Jones is going to show up or when.
I've been in and out on this guy about 18 times because he sucks you in and then . . . Anyone know which Jones is showing up on Thursday?
I'm almost done with the conversations on him. A large contingent wants to give him all the credit for success and none of the blame for failure.
To me yesterday was complete proof that it isn't his teammates holding him back but his own mental state.
This is what I've been suspecting and I'm not sure how to look at it any other way.
I'd also go farther to say I'd rather bet on someone who is always in the right place mentally with less athletic ability than the reverse...
LOLOLOL
OL, scheme, and playmakers have a lot more to do with QB stats than folks like to admit.
How often has Burrow had a good offensive line? His rookie season he had Giants cast off Bobby Hart starting for him.
Jones was fantastic in the second half, but we don’t have to make stuff up.
I would say there are many quarterbacks in the NFL that could have done what he did in the second half yesterday
Would, coulda .. the fact remains D. Jones did it, no one else ever has, and the special mix of passing and running most likely means anyone not name D. Jones will be hard pressed to do so!
He coulda and he dida!
Quote:
In comment 16211440 Coopcomic said:
I would say there are many quarterbacks in the NFL that could have done what he did in the second half yesterday
Would, coulda .. the fact remains D. Jones did it, no one else ever has, and the special mix of passing and running most likely means anyone not name D. Jones will be hard pressed to do so!
He coulda and he dida!
On the counter, not too many elite QBs find themselves down 21 at half too often. Don’t need to use obscure stats to validate what Jones did in the second half. The results are enough.
The OL played much better in the second half giving Jones time to find his receivers.
Jones needs Barkley to have effective play action and RPO offense.
Exactly right.
Not sure why they don't just do that every week for 60 minutes, but what do I know.
This x100
The OL played much better in the second half giving Jones time to find his receivers.
Jones needs Barkley to have effective play action and RPO offense.
I don't think the OL played that much better in the second half, but it's hard to tell from the regular broadcast feed. In any case, I don't the OL deserves the credit for DJ playing better in the second half. I don't think their performance alone was some night and day contrast between the first half and the second half to the extent that it's worth attributing the second half turnaround to their them. Certainly not to the same extent that I'd give that credit to DJ directly and to the playcalling.
As for DJ needing SB for play action, I'm not sure how much weight that carries, depending on how opponents defend the Giants. Even with Barkley in the backfield, Dallas had no respect for the run fake in the play action game. IIRC, Philly did the same thing in the playoffs last year. I don't think that it improves with Barkley potentially out of the lineup, but I'm not sure that the threat of Barkley in the play action game is as impactful as we might naturally assume.
Quote:
I'm a little sick of the decisive "he's not a top 10", "he's not a top 5"...Josh Allen, Burrow, Hurts -- they're supposed to be galaxies away? I'm not seeing that. All are human, and it's not a rigid list - it's fluid. Jones is in the mix for sure. I'm not trashing the elite QBs - but WTF? Jones did what elite QBs do yesterday. If Hyatt is a beast, Waller lives up to expectations, Slayton, Robinson, Shep - with a serviceable O-line - Jones can definitely make the top 3. And even then, who knows - maybe its just top 3 for that year, and he slides down. Nothing is permanent. But Jones is a sure talent.
I would say there are many quarterbacks in the NFL that could have done what he did in the second half yesterday
There are only two in the history of the NFL........
he then went on to have an amazing 2nd half, some say one of his best performances ever, during which he, again, used his feet to create opportunities for the offense and exposed himself to big hits and non-contact injuries.
and the sum total of that is we barely squeaked by one of the worst teams in the league who itself had its backup QB playing, and who we - after losing 40-0 last week - were favored to beat anyway, on their home turf.
if that is the best Jones can do, and the height of his QB prowess, we're in big trouble.
He will never be perfect just like the other QBs out there who also aren't. Brady lost two Superbowls where one could question his performances in those games... the GOAT QB.
The next guy coming up in the draft is not always better. Who can count the number of humans on this planet who are better NFL QBs than Jones on two hands. So, what kind of perfection are we striving for when nobody is perfect?
IMO, if your TEAM is good enough, then the whole thing would not rest solely on the shoulders of one person to win the game for you.
Quote:
Burrow looks like a lot of quarterbacks when you don't have any blocking and you face good teams: below average. I'm sure he'll get it corrected this year and start playing really well, but they look all out of sorts so far.
OL, scheme, and playmakers have a lot more to do with QB stats than folks like to admit.
How often has Burrow had a good offensive line? His rookie season he had Giants cast off Bobby Hart starting for him.
Jones was fantastic in the second half, but we don’t have to make stuff up.
Burrows is better. He also gets paid a ton more. Now, Burrows is struggling right now but I'm sure he'll be ok.
Until we get over DJ being in that top rung of QBs the better off we'll be.
Keep surrounding him with good players and good scheme and he's a pretty good QB.
he then went on to have an amazing 2nd half, some say one of his best performances ever, during which he, again, used his feet to create opportunities for the offense and exposed himself to big hits and non-contact injuries.
and the sum total of that is we barely squeaked by one of the worst teams in the league who itself had its backup QB playing, and who we - after losing 40-0 last week - were favored to beat anyway, on their home turf.
if that is the best Jones can do, and the height of his QB prowess, we're in big trouble.
He completed 70+% of his passes for the game, so by definition he hit the barn in the fist half. These sweeping generalities are getting ridiculous, the anti-J crowd is digging deep to discredit him from doing the exact thing they said he couldn't do.
I've been in and out on this guy about 18 times because he sucks you in and then . . . Anyone know which Jones is showing up on Thursday?
So very true. And these magical stretches have always been against teams that are terrible. In yesterday's case, probably the worst team in the NFL. And the playoff win we now know was not against a very good Vikings team, notwithstanding their deceivingly good record last year. In DJ's fifth year now, he has beaten exactly five teams with a winning record for that year, the Jags/Ravens/Vikings last year and the Raiders and Saints during the Judge era.
He is exactly who he was in his 2019 Tampa debut. A highly coachable, hard working great kid, an above average runner because of his athleticism, but a below average passer because of his subpar processing speed. That is why he chronically under throws passes and is generally late on recognizing open receivers, often making incorrect reads. Nothing has changed.
He has played eight quarters this year and downright stunk in six of them. He had a remarkably great second half yesterday - epic in Giants history. It should be celebrated and recognized as one of the great individual regular season achievements in the Super Bowl era.
But does it give us any more certainty about anything going forward? Do we have any more confidence today that he can beat a good team? Especially now without his most elite weapon on offense, the primary reason why his main security blankets, the slants and under routes were so available to him yesterday?
I doubt it. Look for more bad games against good teams and good games against bad teams. Middling talent. Middling results.
I think Daboll taking over play calling says a lot. I wonder if teams have a good read on MK's tendencies as one factor of many in the first half.
Even in the Super Bowl runs Eli Manning had games like vs. Minnesota where he did not look anywhere close to an NFL QB. How about Joe Burrow Week 1 of this year? I will say that under Brian Daboll and Co. you have seen much more flashes of the QB they thought they were getting than under Joe Judge. I think if the OL and skill guys can grow we will make strides as the year goes on. I wonder how much the interior OL rotation in camp hampered things. As nobody stood out as a starting LG and Glow was RG by default because McKethan wasn't healthy our already limited practice reps were further limited.
He will never be perfect just like the other QBs out there who also aren't. Brady lost two Superbowls where one could question his performances in those games... the GOAT QB.
The next guy coming up in the draft is not always better. Who can count the number of humans on this planet who are better NFL QBs than Jones on two hands. So, what kind of perfection are we striving for when nobody is perfect?
IMO, if your TEAM is good enough, then the whole thing would not rest solely on the shoulders of one person to win the game for you.
It's out of control really.
Our QB can get have no chance on 9 out of 10 chances, but that 10th chance, man, you better be true or else!!!! LOL
It isn't moving the goal posts--he needs to start doing it more frequently and against better opponents. That's the criticism for me. We don't expect games like yesterday's 2H or the Vikings games like last week every week--but we need them more frequently than we saw last season IMO.
he then went on to have an amazing 2nd half, some say one of his best performances ever, during which he, again, used his feet to create opportunities for the offense and exposed himself to big hits and non-contact injuries.
and the sum total of that is we barely squeaked by one of the worst teams in the league who itself had its backup QB playing, and who we - after losing 40-0 last week - were favored to beat anyway, on their home turf.
if that is the best Jones can do, and the height of his QB prowess, we're in big trouble.
I disagree with the overall tone and direction of your Daniel Jones comments. The first half was a debacle because our defense was defeated a dozen ways to Sunday. In that context, how well do you think our QB is going to do while watching most of the first half from the sidelines rooting on a listless defense? And for the few minutes Daniel Jones saw the field in the first half, how well should he have performed with a zero run game and an o-line that looked very shaky?
Quote:
In comment 16211669 joeinpa said:
Quote:
On the counter, not too many elite QBs find themselves down 21 at half too often. Don’t need to use obscure stats to validate what Jones did in the second half. The results are enough.
Yes the cardinals turtled,
Yes the Giants were 3 sheets to the wind,
but doesn't the uniquely awful context make the accomplishment all the more special?
Put Joe Montana back there, would he have done it?
Would Dwight and Jerry ever need to climb on his back and be carried to Victory?
I would amend this. I'm not sure I've seen such a complete organization collapse as I've seen the first six quarters of this season.
So if he does what he did in the 2nd half against Zona he will be the best player to ever live. Again sometimes football is more than just the quarterback and other people need to be able to do their jobs
I think this might be the best post on this thread.
I didn't read the thread end-to-end, who said that?
Implicitly citing Daniel Jones’ lousy performance against Dallas last week is quite perplexing. How would any QB perform with an entire defensive front arriving at the ball a nano-second after he receives the snap? And as for the first half of the Cardinals game, what sort of Daniel Jones stats were you expecting as he sat on the sideline watching the defense getting its teeth kicked in?
I think Daboll taking over play calling says a lot. I wonder if teams have a good read on MK's tendencies as one factor of many in the first half.
Keep up the name calling, dipshit. If it wasn't for me, no one else would even bother replying to your posts - that's how irrelevant you are. And I certainly don't need leadership advice from a feeble old man, but I appreciate your concern.
As for BD taking over the playcalling, has that actually been confirmed?
In the first sentence you dismiss the mere concept of evaluating a "mental state" as absurd, and in the second you admire how great his mental state was in a different game?
I disagree with the overall tone and direction of your Daniel Jones comments. The first half was a debacle because our defense was defeated a dozen ways to Sunday. In that context, how well do you think our QB is going to do while watching most of the first half from the sidelines rooting on a listless defense? And for the few minutes Daniel Jones saw the field in the first half, how well should he have performed with a zero run game and an o-line that looked very shaky?
The Giants had one less possession in the first half (5-4). Part of the reason they watched from the sideline was because the offense couldn’t sustain drives.
Quote:
To repeat what he did against Arizona isn’t moving the goalposts. It’s what Jones should be doing.
So if he does what he did in the 2nd half against Zona he will be the best player to ever live. Again sometimes football is more than just the quarterback and other people need to be able to do their jobs
Taking it too literal, but ok.
Quote:
The posts around his mental state are completely foolish. I was at the Minnesota game and that place was incredibly loud, couldn't hear anything basically. Loudest atmosphere I've been in for a home football game. He was totally cool/unfazed the whole time. Come on now.
In the first sentence you dismiss the mere concept of evaluating a "mental state" as absurd, and in the second you admire how great his mental state was in a different game?
No, what I'm saying is, it's a moot point. He has shown throughout his career he never gets too up or down in games. He doesn't seem affected by things, one way or the other.
Quote:
from behind fashion. He also set a record doing it. This is just what his detractors said he couldn't do. So now they say "well do it again". Keep moving the goalposts anti-Jones crowd. At some point even you will have to see how ridiculous this is.
I didn't read the thread end-to-end, who said that?
It was me, this was my quote:
NoGainDayne : 9/17/2023 7:15 pm : link : reply
let's see what they can do next week
And someone called me a troll for saying that. You literally can't win with the DJFC.
I came back to that thread because I was hard on him in the first half and I wanted to give him credit.
To me that was him saving his and the Giants season after 6 horrible quarters and his worst game ever as his most important one.
My enthusiasm as a result was tempered. People want to keep declaring the DJ as a franchise QB debate over but I'd think people would understand the temperance after the Vikings game when I gave him tons more credit but expressed a worry that he was going to get a big contract and the pressures of that and NY could be tough for him the following season.
I was told on that thread that he was past that.
Every good game people want to act like Jones is going to be the way he played in those moments for good and if anything the only thing we know for sure about Jones is that he can play absolutely lights out and "fold" as Sy said in the following game.
How many times do we have to watch DJ take a step back after a good game before we are allowed to be tempered in our enthusiasm when that happens?
This cycle is just getting very irritating. Some of us are just expected to ignore the history of the data to protect your good feelings.
If he plays poorly on Thursday it is going to be a short week, impossible circumstances, the standard if we win it is him if we lose it isn't BS.
But the fact is I expect him to play poorly, sorry. I'd love to be wrong. But the examples of him playing poorly against good defenses outnumber the ones where he plays well.
The DJFC loves to make it about liking or not liking him. But this is about comfort, and inconsistent players make me uncomfortable. And sorry but he is inconsistent.
I mean if you call yourself a Giants fan - you should be a fan of his. But it’s very apparent some root for him to fail.
Quote:
In comment 16211828 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
from behind fashion. He also set a record doing it. This is just what his detractors said he couldn't do. So now they say "well do it again". Keep moving the goalposts anti-Jones crowd. At some point even you will have to see how ridiculous this is.
I didn't read the thread end-to-end, who said that?
It was me, this was my quote:
Quote:
Good some life in Jones and the team
NoGainDayne : 9/17/2023 7:15 pm : link : reply
let's see what they can do next week
And someone called me a troll for saying that. You literally can't win with the DJFC.
I came back to that thread because I was hard on him in the first half and I wanted to give him credit.
To me that was him saving his and the Giants season after 6 horrible quarters and his worst game ever as his most important one.
My enthusiasm as a result was tempered. People want to keep declaring the DJ as a franchise QB debate over but I'd think people would understand the temperance after the Vikings game when I gave him tons more credit but expressed a worry that he was going to get a big contract and the pressures of that and NY could be tough for him the following season.
I was told on that thread that he was past that.
Every good game people want to act like Jones is going to be the way he played in those moments for good and if anything the only thing we know for sure about Jones is that he can play absolutely lights out and "fold" as Sy said in the following game.
How many times do we have to watch DJ take a step back after a good game before we are allowed to be tempered in our enthusiasm when that happens?
This cycle is just getting very irritating. Some of us are just expected to ignore the history of the data to protect your good feelings.
If he plays poorly on Thursday it is going to be a short week, impossible circumstances, the standard if we win it is him if we lose it isn't BS.
But the fact is I expect him to play poorly, sorry. I'd love to be wrong. But the examples of him playing poorly against good defenses outnumber the ones where he plays well.
The DJFC loves to make it about liking or not liking him. But this is about comfort, and inconsistent players make me uncomfortable. And sorry but he is inconsistent.
This does not pertain to you in particular except to say that I disagree with your last paragraph and, if you want to pin it on DJFC, you have to acknowledge the "replace Daniel Jones at all cost" contingent of BBI.
Daniel Jones is not a stud QB and that is why he did not get the $50+ Million/year contracts we have seen given out and got one that we are able to extricate ourselves from early on. He definitely has his limitations, but I will say that the shuffling of OL to try and find the right combination did not do him any favors. While some was by necessity, at some point you have to say "this is our first team OL get them reps together."
Quote:
errors in your posts again Gdumb. If you want to lead from the front it is important for you to lead from the front.
I think Daboll taking over play calling says a lot. I wonder if teams have a good read on MK's tendencies as one factor of many in the first half.
Keep up the name calling, dipshit. If it wasn't for me, no one else would even bother replying to your posts - that's how irrelevant you are. And I certainly don't need leadership advice from a feeble old man, but I appreciate your concern.
As for BD taking over the playcalling, has that actually been confirmed?
So your mistakes is now my problem. That is Gdumb. Soft and easily rattled.
Quote:
I disagree with the overall tone and direction of your Daniel Jones comments. The first half was a debacle because our defense was defeated a dozen ways to Sunday. In that context, how well do you think our QB is going to do while watching most of the first half from the sidelines rooting on a listless defense? And for the few minutes Daniel Jones saw the field in the first half, how well should he have performed with a zero run game and an o-line that looked very shaky?
The Giants had one less possession in the first half (5-4). Part of the reason they watched from the sideline was because the offense couldn’t sustain drives.
The Giants couldn’t sustain drives because one of them was halted by Saquon Barkley’s butterfinger INT. And at least one other was due to an o-line that couldn’t run block or pass block in the first half. So that gave Daniel Jones at best two drives to do something.
This does not pertain to you in particular except to say that I disagree with your last paragraph and, if you want to pin it on DJFC, you have to acknowledge the "replace Daniel Jones at all cost" contingent of BBI.
Daniel Jones is not a stud QB and that is why he did not get the $50+ Million/year contracts we have seen given out and got one that we are able to extricate ourselves from early on. He definitely has his limitations, but I will say that the shuffling of OL to try and find the right combination did not do him any favors. While some was by necessity, at some point you have to say "this is our first team OL get them reps together."
I agree with you, but I was more in the franchise tag him than replace at all costs camp.
Given his dependence on other players to do well (and that is what the impossible circumstances" people say) I'd say that it is too much of the cap to invest in him.
In the games he has played poorly he has 100% faced overall tough conditions but absolving him of any blame is just as off base as placing it squarely on his shoulders. But at least the shoulders thing to me makes more sense when he is taking up close to 20% of the cap and playing the most important position in team sports.
Yet for some odd reason it is the people that are absolving him that what FULL absolution and the people on the other side arguing and acknowledging his tough situation and wanting him to get a share of the blame too. That too me is what is logically difficult to understand.
Quote:
In comment 16211829 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
To repeat what he did against Arizona isn’t moving the goalposts. It’s what Jones should be doing.
So if he does what he did in the 2nd half against Zona he will be the best player to ever live. Again sometimes football is more than just the quarterback and other people need to be able to do their jobs
Taking it too literal, but ok.
You have non stop crapped on the guy. Even when he does something historic you come up with things he needs to do better. It's old and tired. Just admit you hate him and move on. We all get it!
Quote:
In comment 16211818 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
errors in your posts again Gdumb. If you want to lead from the front it is important for you to lead from the front.
I think Daboll taking over play calling says a lot. I wonder if teams have a good read on MK's tendencies as one factor of many in the first half.
Keep up the name calling, dipshit. If it wasn't for me, no one else would even bother replying to your posts - that's how irrelevant you are. And I certainly don't need leadership advice from a feeble old man, but I appreciate your concern.
As for BD taking over the playcalling, has that actually been confirmed?
So your mistakes is now my problem. That is Gdumb. Soft and easily rattled.
Show me one mistake. I'm sure it must be at least as obvious as "so your mistakes is now my problem."
The only way you'd rattle me is you showed up during an earthquake.
Quote:
This does not pertain to you in particular except to say that I disagree with your last paragraph and, if you want to pin it on DJFC, you have to acknowledge the "replace Daniel Jones at all cost" contingent of BBI.
Daniel Jones is not a stud QB and that is why he did not get the $50+ Million/year contracts we have seen given out and got one that we are able to extricate ourselves from early on. He definitely has his limitations, but I will say that the shuffling of OL to try and find the right combination did not do him any favors. While some was by necessity, at some point you have to say "this is our first team OL get them reps together."
I agree with you, but I was more in the franchise tag him than replace at all costs camp.
Given his dependence on other players to do well (and that is what the impossible circumstances" people say) I'd say that it is too much of the cap to invest in him.
In the games he has played poorly he has 100% faced overall tough conditions but absolving him of any blame is just as off base as placing it squarely on his shoulders. But at least the shoulders thing to me makes more sense when he is taking up close to 20% of the cap and playing the most important position in team sports.
Yet for some odd reason it is the people that are absolving him that what FULL absolution and the people on the other side arguing and acknowledging his tough situation and wanting him to get a share of the blame too. That too me is what is logically difficult to understand.
And there are people who put 100% of the blame on him, want to spend the 7th overall pick on Malik Willis and constantly take QB's with 1st round picks until we get one right. They refuse to acknowledge the situation around him and say that an NFL QB has to make "off script" plays and if Jones can't he is not an NFL QB and needs to be replaced. Nevermind the fact that the grass is not always greener and they want to spend resources that could be used to fix the problems around Jones on a QB gamble. Because suddenly being Arizona with Josh Rosen, Kyler Murray, and soon Caleb Williams is where we really want to be.
You told me you are very intelligent so you can find the other.
You have non stop crapped on the guy. Even when he does something historic you come up with things he needs to do better. It's old and tired. Just admit you hate him and move on. We all get it!
First of all, I’ve been very complimentary of Jones’ performance yesterday.
It’s also true that Jones has to improve and show the ceiling more often. 2 quarters out of the last 12 isn’t enough. Multiple things are allowed to be true at the same time.
The Giants had one less possession in the first half (5-4). Part of the reason they watched from the sideline was because the offense couldn’t sustain drives.
The Giants couldn’t sustain drives because one of them was halted by Saquon Barkley’s butterfinger INT. And at least one other was due to an o-line that couldn’t run block or pass block in the first half. So that gave Daniel Jones at best two drives to do something.
The Barkley interception was preceded by the Slayton under throw. So there were multiple people responsible for that drive getting stalled.
You told me you are very intelligent so you can find the other.
You can't even form full sentences after 8pm and you're on me for that? The missing word (think) is present in the sentence that preceded that error, and it was clearly a typo (as was the their/them error a few lines later), which is more than anyone can say for your factually inaccurate takes.
Take your meds and wipe your drool. Wouldn't want the nurses to put you to bed before your Matlock reruns.
Quote:
I'm a little sick of the decisive "he's not a top 10", "he's not a top 5"...Josh Allen, Burrow, Hurts -- they're supposed to be galaxies away? I'm not seeing that. All are human, and it's not a rigid list - it's fluid. Jones is in the mix for sure. I'm not trashing the elite QBs - but WTF? Jones did what elite QBs do yesterday. If Hyatt is a beast, Waller lives up to expectations, Slayton, Robinson, Shep - with a serviceable O-line - Jones can definitely make the top 3. And even then, who knows - maybe its just top 3 for that year, and he slides down. Nothing is permanent. But Jones is a sure talent.
I would say there are many quarterbacks in the NFL that could have done what he did in the second half yesterday
Ohhh my freaking lord.
When will it f-ing stop.
If it was called a catch on the field it wouldn’t have been overturned. One of those plays that there wasn’t enough to overturn either way
Do you want it in the first half, or second half.....or both?
Quote:
The Giants had one less possession in the first half (5-4). Part of the reason they watched from the sideline was because the offense couldn’t sustain drives.
The Giants couldn’t sustain drives because one of them was halted by Saquon Barkley’s butterfinger INT. And at least one other was due to an o-line that couldn’t run block or pass block in the first half. So that gave Daniel Jones at best two drives to do something.
The Barkley interception was preceded by the Slayton under throw. So there were multiple people responsible for that drive getting stalled.
It's on Barkley.
The gameplan against Dallas really got thrown through the roof when they blocked the kick and scored, and had the Barkley pick 6.
I would have liked to see what they could have done that game if they score a touchdown on that first drive. Wishful thinking, Iknow.
Quote:
Gdumb. "I don't the OL deserves"
You told me you are very intelligent so you can find the other.
You can't even form full sentences after 8pm and you're on me for that? The missing word (think) is present in the sentence that preceded that error, and it was clearly a typo (as was the their/them error a few lines later), which is more than anyone can say for your factually inaccurate takes.
Take your meds and wipe your drool. Wouldn't want the nurses to put you to bed before your Matlock reruns.
Sorry to see your NPD persist. I told you that it was hard to treat and another example from you as to why that is the case.
I think a good start for you would be recognizing you are not very smart and build on that. Good luck.
The Barkley interception was preceded by the Slayton under throw. So there were multiple people responsible for that drive getting stalled.
It's on Barkley.
But if he hits Slayton who had three steps on the corner the drive is completely different.
You’re proving NGD’s point. All the good can’t only be Jones’ doing and all the bad play can’t just always be everyone else’s fault.
Quote:
The Barkley interception was preceded by the Slayton under throw. So there were multiple people responsible for that drive getting stalled.
It's on Barkley.
But if he hits Slayton who had three steps on the corner the drive is completely different.
You’re proving NGD’s point. All the good can’t only be Jones’ doing and all the bad play can’t just always be everyone else’s fault.
This is really getting silly.
One was an incomplete pass on a timing pattern.
The other was a dropped/tipped pass that resulted in an INT that resulted in points for the other team.
As far as the drive being completely different if the Slayton ball was complete, we have no idea what would have happened. A multitude of things could have happened, good or bad.
But we do know what happened after the play to Barkley.
Barkley played stalled/ruined the drive.
The gameplan against Dallas really got thrown through the roof when they blocked the kick and scored, and had the Barkley pick 6.
I would have liked to see what they could have done that game if they score a touchdown on that first drive. Wishful thinking, Iknow.
I think it goes beyond that. Jones isn't really better throwing on the run, but mostly because it's much more difficult to throw on the run, mechanically speaking (and this applies to any QB, not DJ in particular). But where you see those great moments from DJ is when he isn't thinking, he's just playing ball. He's reacting. He's letting his reflexes and his instincts do the processing and letting his arm and his legs respond.
As it turns out, that style of play does tend to show up in the same sort of scenarios where you might see DJ throwing on the run, but I don't think it's the action of throwing on the run that makes him more dangerous. In fact, I think he plays better in spite of the higher degree of difficulty because he's just reacting. When he sits in the pocket and reads the field, that's when it seems like he overthrows a receiver or makes some other minor mistake (and sometimes it's not always minor). Conversely, when he just plays football, I think DJ is a much better QB.
It's almost like writing your signature - if you just sign it without thinking about it, it's going to look the same way almost every time - it's repeatable and it's trained in your muscle memory. But if you slow down and think about each letter as you write it, your signature is going to be more inconsistent from one autograph to the next, and it doesn't even benefit from the extra attention that you're giving it.
Purely speculation on my part, but when I watch DJ, I see him as a completely different QB when he's just balling. When he's trying to process everything he either slows down too much or he turns robotic, but when he just reacts to the game in front of him, he's a much better QB and a more lethal weapon for the Giants. Just my POV.
Quote:
Jones is so much better when he's airing it out and moving around, throwing on the run.
The gameplan against Dallas really got thrown through the roof when they blocked the kick and scored, and had the Barkley pick 6.
I would have liked to see what they could have done that game if they score a touchdown on that first drive. Wishful thinking, Iknow.
I think it goes beyond that. Jones isn't really better throwing on the run, but mostly because it's much more difficult to throw on the run, mechanically speaking (and this applies to any QB, not DJ in particular). But where you see those great moments from DJ is when he isn't thinking, he's just playing ball. He's reacting. He's letting his reflexes and his instincts do the processing and letting his arm and his legs respond.
As it turns out, that style of play does tend to show up in the same sort of scenarios where you might see DJ throwing on the run, but I don't think it's the action of throwing on the run that makes him more dangerous. In fact, I think he plays better in spite of the higher degree of difficulty because he's just reacting. When he sits in the pocket and reads the field, that's when it seems like he overthrows a receiver or makes some other minor mistake (and sometimes it's not always minor). Conversely, when he just plays football, I think DJ is a much better QB.
It's almost like writing your signature - if you just sign it without thinking about it, it's going to look the same way almost every time - it's repeatable and it's trained in your muscle memory. But if you slow down and think about each letter as you write it, your signature is going to be more inconsistent from one autograph to the next, and it doesn't even benefit from the extra attention that you're giving it.
Purely speculation on my part, but when I watch DJ, I see him as a completely different QB when he's just balling. When he's trying to process everything he either slows down too much or he turns robotic, but when he just reacts to the game in front of him, he's a much better QB and a more lethal weapon for the Giants. Just my POV.
We’ve not agreed much in the past, but you’re spot on here… Mahomes is the same way … just line up, play the game and let it come to you, trust your instincts, react and make plays.
Implicitly citing Daniel Jones’ lousy performance against Dallas last week is quite perplexing. How would any QB perform with an entire defensive front arriving at the ball a nano-second after he receives the snap? And as for the first half of the Cardinals game, what sort of Daniel Jones stats were you expecting as he sat on the sideline watching the defense getting its teeth kicked in?
You can't give credit to the quarterback for positive team performance and then assign all criticism to the coaching staff and other players for poor team performance. It is pure silliness. Let's be clear. DJ stunk for six quarters, along with many other players and coaches, and he was great for two quarters, along with many other players and coaches.
And we need to stop impugning the integrity of posters who are correctly critical of bad quarterback play around here. It is bizarre. If I say that Micah McFadden stunk yesterday, nobody cares. But if I say DJ stunk against Dallas and in the first half against Arizona, I am somehow not a "good fan" of the team. I can assure you, the people who are critical of DJ are loyal Giants fans who want nothing more than to win championships.
And for the record, as to your original post, I will never feel comfortable with DJ as the quarterback of this team. Never have been. Never will be. His ceiling is not what you build an NFL team around. Despite the most intense and indefatigable efforts of his most strident admirers to strangely desire unanimous DJ love, his tally of future Lombardi Trophies shall be the only criterion that will ever sway my point of view.
Just like I will never feel "comfortable" about Micah McFadden as a starting inside linebacker of this team, no matter how often you argue that I should be...
This is really getting silly.
One was an incomplete pass on a timing pattern.
The other was a dropped/tipped pass that resulted in an INT that resulted in points for the other team.
As far as the drive being completely different if the Slayton ball was complete, we have no idea what would have happened. A multitude of things could have happened, good or bad.
But we do know what happened after the play to Barkley.
Barkley played stalled/ruined the drive.
Timing pattern? It was a 9 route that the guy had a walk in touch down for. Cmon let’s stop being silly.
The point is there were multiple reasons why they Giants didn’t play well in the first half, multiple mistakes. Was Barkley’s mistake bigger than Jones’? Absolutely. Did it have a higher chance of success, absolutely. But both were mistakes.
To say Jones only had two drives he could have done something on is being disingenuous and bias. It’s part of the insanity that only the good is Jones’ responsibility and none of the bad.
I think he’s probably a very intelligent guy prone to introspection and self criticism. That’s my guess. I know I’m going to get lampooned for freelance amateur psychiatry but that’s what I think.
Quote:
from behind fashion. He also set a record doing it. This is just what his detractors said he couldn't do. So now they say "well do it again". Keep moving the goalposts anti-Jones crowd. At some point even you will have to see how ridiculous this is.
It isn't moving the goal posts--he needs to start doing it more frequently and against better opponents. That's the criticism for me. We don't expect games like yesterday's 2H or the Vikings games like last week every week--but we need them more frequently than we saw last season IMO.
And what QB can do what he did Sunday more frequently?
Quote:
The Giants had one less possession in the first half (5-4). Part of the reason they watched from the sideline was because the offense couldn’t sustain drives.
The Giants couldn’t sustain drives because one of them was halted by Saquon Barkley’s butterfinger INT. And at least one other was due to an o-line that couldn’t run block or pass block in the first half. So that gave Daniel Jones at best two drives to do something.
The Barkley interception was preceded by the Slayton under throw. So there were multiple people responsible for that drive getting stalled.
WHAT??? This is a joke, right?
Quote:
In comment 16211828 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
from behind fashion. He also set a record doing it. This is just what his detractors said he couldn't do. So now they say "well do it again". Keep moving the goalposts anti-Jones crowd. At some point even you will have to see how ridiculous this is.
Not many quarterbacks can do what he did in the second half period.
Tried to make that point in my post above
It isn't moving the goal posts--he needs to start doing it more frequently and against better opponents. That's the criticism for me. We don't expect games like yesterday's 2H or the Vikings games like last week every week--but we need them more frequently than we saw last season IMO.
And what QB can do what he did Sunday more frequently?
He had three steps on the corner. It should have been a touchdown.
It was definitely an underthrow. But what you say about Slayton is true too. I've seen many wide outs draw pass interference on plays like that. Especially against a rookie corner who doesn't have his head turned.
Totally agree. Slayton does a great job getting open and yes DJ should hit him, but again things aren't perfect, so when Slayton realizes the ball is underthrown it's ADJUSTMENT time.
Slayton does nothing to adjust and I'm not getting on him because he's not a WR1, I understand he's got limitations. Those guys make the great adjustments and turn contested balls into catches.
He wasn’t perfect but he wasn’t the main reason they didn’t score. The int 4-5 drops and sacks and penalities didn’t help. If the kid has time he is Very Good!!!