Sorry if this has been discussed already, but listening to WFAN this afternoon there was a report that people within the Giants organization still believe in Jones and want to either draft another position or trade the pick even if they're #1 or #2.
Personally, if they think Jones IS the guy, is a real franchise QB and go into year 6 with him on yet another scholarship, I just don't know what to say. If you have a chance to draft a potentially great QB and you pass, sticking with mediocre, frequently injured DJ, who is what he is and is never going to be anything else, this franchise is even more lost and f'd up than anyone could possibly have realized and they deserve to continue the losing culture they've developed.
It's a joke.
Somebody posted a pundit's prediction that the Giants will take Sheneur Sanders, who'll rocket up draft boards. I could see Daboll wanting to develop him — he's very athletic, fast, a playmaker, rocket arm, but raw. Sounds like another QB Daboll helped develop. Jones becomes their Alex Smith and they hope Sanders becomes their Patrick Mahomes.
Rinse. Repeat. No alignment.
If this franchise doesn't draft a QB they're clueless.
Again.
And the QB will all want is reduced to a Sam Hartman-like player in the 6th round.
There's a theory that every team should draft a QB every year. It sounds nuts but this year's Giants are evidence for that theory. The guy they just paid to be their QB1 is hurt and regressed. Their veteran QB2 made dumb mistakes and got hurt. And now they're down to an UDFA QB3 who isn't ready to play in the league.
This is the likely scenario. And if they go Nix, JJ, Ewers, etc. in the 2nd or later they might feel that they aren't ready to jump right in. So then we have a scenario where Jones is starting and on the the later drafted QBs sits and learns.
+1 They better be right if they bypass a QB at #1 or #2 overall in this draft.
Rinse. Repeat. No alignment.
If this franchise doesn't draft a QB they're clueless.
Rinse. Repeat. No alignment.
If this franchise doesn't draft a QB they're clueless.
If they go 7-10 the same crew will be saying to run it back
It's a joke.
Lol I was about to respond then saw its a joke while making a response post lol
Health forces their hand.
They're picking a QB, and just so you know . . .
I own a 2013 Team Machine SLR01 with SRAM 10 speed Red . . . great ride
More than any other reason, that’s why they will take the opportunity to reset the position.
They are drafting a QB. Only reason to discuss they aren't is to force a conversation.
Kyler Murray moved around pretty well last week
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QBs never the same after knee surgery: Sam Bradford, Dante Culpepper, Carson Palmer, Teddy Bridgewater
Kyler Murray moved around pretty well last week
Joe burrow too. Surgery has evolved so much, even from 10 years ago the surgeries exponentially evolve with tech. It's completely different now. But no Jones cannot be qb here longer
But, his reliability has to be suspect, at best.
If they are going to be serious about their culture of “smart, tough, reliable” then they HAVE to move on.
For starters there have been a ton of medical advances since any of those surgeries...
secondly ACL issues are more about the physical therapy than the surgery itself... and then lets compare DJs age and work ethic to any of those besides maybe bridgewater who had a considerably more serious injury. Carson was old, Dante was fat and lazy and Bradford came into the league with an already bum shoulder and not for nothing, there were rumblings back then about his work ethic as well
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In comment 16289557 jmdvm said:
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QBs never the same after knee surgery: Sam Bradford, Dante Culpepper, Carson Palmer, Teddy Bridgewater
Kyler Murray moved around pretty well last week
Joe burrow too. Surgery has evolved so much, even from 10 years ago the surgeries exponentially evolve with tech. It's completely different now. But no Jones cannot be qb here longer
True, many players recover from ACL surgery and resume their careers successfully. Adrian Peterson and Saquan Barkley are two non QB examples. But right here, how does Wandale Robinson recover in less than a year yet Adrian Robinson is a ghost? There are no guarantees. A QB needs to be drafted. If Jones doesn't recover 100%, his ability as a runner goes out the window.
Again.
And the QB will all want is reduced to a Sam Hartman-like player in the 6th round.
When was the other time they upgraded the team?
What if they go on a winning run and draft 8th. Miss out on qbs and bring back Jones due to necessity?
Being honest is a waste of time.
A new QB at 1 or 2 makes too much sense if he is the right guy. That is what 29 of 30 GMs would do. I don’t doubt we will as well.
A lot could change between now and the draft, so we really can't be 100% certain of anything (remember La'el Collins?).
That being said, absent some significant development, if the Giants are drafting in the top 3 and the 3 QBs at the top are still at the top, the pick will be QB, with 95% certainty.
And the reason is this: You do not pass up a chance to draft a premium QB prospect when it falls in your lap when you do not already have a franchise QB. And sometimes even if you already have a franchise QB, you still don't pass up the opportunity. Remember the Colts traded Peyton Manning, a first ballot HOF'er coming off a neck injury, imagine that, because they found themselves with the rare opportunity to draft a premium QB talent in Andrew Luck at the top of the draft.
Whether or not you still believe Jones has the ability to become a franchise QB, and I can't stress this enough, IT DOES NOT MATTER ONE IOTA at this point, because he still hasn't proven it, and the Giants *should* be in position to draft one of the big three QB prospects.
QB drafts like this don't come around often. In fact, a single premium QB prospect isn't in every yearly draft class, much less three guys at this level of pedigree.
If you have the chance to draft a guy that could be the next Mahomes, Manning, or Elway, you do not pass that up unless you already have a guy performing at the top of their position in the NFL, and if that's the case, it's really hard to have that and be drafting at the top of the draft, anyway.
Add in the dynamics that this regime was not fully sold on DJ at any point, given that he did not get a 5 year option exercised AND did not get a true long-term deal (it was essentially a 2-yeat deal), AND he did not play well early this season, even when the throws were there, this is the biggest no-brainer since Joe Burrow was sitting there at #1 overall and the Bengals were on the clock.
And the only reason I'm putting the odds at 95% and not 100% is because there is still a lot of football to be played and a lot of time before the draft. Who knows...if Drake Maye gets caught snorting coke off a...well, you get the idea. Anything totally unexpected could happen. But those scenarios are highly unlikely.
Don't believe any article written by someone with 'sources inside the Giants org'. There are very few that actually know anything.
What we do know is what we've seen so far.
1.) Jones stunk when he played this year, and was middle of the road at his peak in 2022.
2.) Jones has had 2 neck injuries and a torn acl now
3.) There is an out after 2024 in Jones contract
4.) Daboll showed visible frustration with Jones at times
5.) Schoen and members of the scouting department have gone to multiple USC and UNC games so far
The prospect of DeVito + Harrison gives the league shivers.
Passing on a QB would permanently hitch Scheon and Daboll to Jones. If it didn't work out, they would both need to be gone. If they survive and get to draft the next QB in 2025 or later, it would be a strong sign that Mara forced them to keep Jones. If only one of them is fired, it's still a sign that weren't allowed to move on from Jones, and someone was the fall guy.
Passing on a QB would permanently hitch Scheon and Daboll to Jones. If it didn't work out, they would both need to be gone. If they survive and get to draft the next QB in 2025 or later, it would be a strong sign that Mara forced them to keep Jones. If only one of them is fired, it's still a sign that weren't allowed to move on from Jones, and someone was the fall guy.
Not taking a QB could set the franchise back even further than taking one and missing on him.
I have been as big a supporter of DJ as anyone. But he was bad this year. Indeed as a pure eye test, it was the worst year of his career. I think Dallas broke him. Not sure he is fixable.
Given his injury history and performance it would be insane to rely on him. I suspect it is equally likely that we bring back Eli.
And for the record I do think he starts next year if his recovery allows. But he is doing the Kurt Warner thing.
Daboll flipped the tablet. But he wanted to break it over Jones head.
Jones has to be replaced .
It’s like the guy who keeps divorcing his wives because they are all sterile and can’t give him the child he wants.
It’s like the guy who keeps divorcing his wives because they are all sterile and can’t give him the child he wants.
More like Henry VIII executing his wives because they won’t birth him a son without realizing that HE was the reason they kept having girls. Not drafting a QB with a top 3 pick would be the epitome of shooting one’s self in the foot. Repeatedly.
If you want the true franchise QB you have to take that chance. Regardless of how Jones might do next season he still has that neck situation which could go any time. You have to have the great prospect behind him or you end up like we are today
And a news flash to BBI. ACL injuries are career ending only in your DJ hating dreams. The timing sucks, but everything about the 2023 offensive side of the ball injury history has sucked. One thing about DJ that is for sure - he is not the type to mail his rehab in.
Then you'll be calling MHJ a bust without realizing it's because Jones can't get him the ball
If Giants end up picking outside of the top 3 and aren't in love with any of the other QBs, I'm fine with taking Harrison. Just please please don't extend Jones again if somehow they go 9-8 in 2024 and get the 7 seed.
Taking Trey Lance I'll defend until I die, because we live in the modern NFL. It was an attempt in earnest, with best of intentions, and unfortunately there was some bad luck involved (I still believe Lance could've at least done what Garoppolo did with some potential big play upside).
The Niners were looking to win a Super Bowl, not just be a team that wins deep in January but can't close.
Having Micah Parsons or Jamar Chase or Kyle Pitts or Patrick Surtain or Penei Sewll would have been nice (and no trades needed for Parsons/Surtain), but ultimately added zero Lombardis in Santa Clara. Not even the biggest Niner homer would claim it would've made a difference.
Unfortunately, this is the NFL era we live in.
Get your shiny QB or risk never winning it all.
Now in hindsight, goes to show you those '80s 49ers were much more than just Joe Montana. Without those top 5 defenses, would've won nothing, just like Marino.
Jones will likely start 2024.
It will be his last year with the team.
Rejoicing in the streets for some.
I am sorry the young man has been such an obstacle to your happiness.
I accept the reality and will embrace Jones replacement.
If we use the historic rate of 1st round QBs succeeding, it is likely, that who we draft, will not be as good as Jones.
Statistically speaking.
Even as Jones fan, I would be severely disappointed if we don't draft one of these kids. I don't believe it is possible for this team to FIX THE OL.
We need a QB with plus escapability and plus off schedule play creation.
It is worth going for it.
Become?
So adding Harrison would make the offensive line not matter, but no other QB can perform behind this line?
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Our line wouldn’t matter as much with this cast,
So adding Harrison would make the offensive line not matter, but no other QB can perform behind this line?
Yes an elite WR that can win at every level is a game changer and would mitigate the awful OL. Very hard to operate without a guy like that when your OL sucks. Hyatt and Wandale are nice role players, but they are pretty pretty far from what he is.
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In comment 16290571 Blame It On Rio said:
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Our line wouldn’t matter as much with this cast,
So adding Harrison would make the offensive line not matter, but no other QB can perform behind this line?
Yes an elite WR that can win at every level is a game changer and would mitigate the awful OL. Very hard to operate without a guy like that when your OL sucks. Hyatt and Wandale are nice role players, but they are pretty pretty far from what he is.
An elite WR is dwarfed by a very good QB in terms of wins above replacement. It's not close.
What was probably a round 2-4 selection is now a round 1-2 selection with a higher than anticipated pick. Maybe THE pick.
Peter King said it well: going in, Jones was in the process of convincing Schoen and Dabs he was their 5-year starter; then he played badly and the injuries came.
Schoen structured Jones contract the way he did for a reason. He and Dabs aren't idiots. They saw what many saw: Jones played damn well while not losing games through dumb mistakes. Had he thrown even an average amount of interceptions we don't make the playoffs. Don't underestimate that. Some labelled Jones a coach-killer; in that aspect he's a coach saver.
If Jones equalled last year with some expected 2nd-year-in-system improvement with more chunk plays via better cast, and maintain a low TO rate, he's absolutely a QB you want to keep a long time and worth $40MM to Giants (and at the point everyone else too).
But now that's out the window. We're drafting a QB in 1 or 2 -- maybe a round higher than we would have. And Schoen and Dabs accounted for Jones not being the answer after next season. With the crapathon comes the draft gold. Maybe on balance it all evens out compared with a good season and low draft slot.
Yes an elite WR that can win at every level is a game changer and would mitigate the awful OL. Very hard to operate without a guy like that when your OL sucks. Hyatt and Wandale are nice role players, but they are pretty pretty far from what he is.
That must be why the Raiders and Jets are having such good years
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Yes an elite WR that can win at every level is a game changer and would mitigate the awful OL. Very hard to operate without a guy like that when your OL sucks. Hyatt and Wandale are nice role players, but they are pretty pretty far from what he is.
That must be why the Raiders and Jets are having such good years
Wilson isn’t elite yet.
But you know damn well having an elite WR is a huge factor in great offenses.
An elite WR helps, but it’s nowhere near the impact a QB has on winning.
This
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In comment 16290586 Blame It On Rio said:
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Yes an elite WR that can win at every level is a game changer and would mitigate the awful OL. Very hard to operate without a guy like that when your OL sucks. Hyatt and Wandale are nice role players, but they are pretty pretty far from what he is.
That must be why the Raiders and Jets are having such good years
Wilson isn’t elite yet.
But you know damn well having an elite WR is a huge factor in great offenses.
The only reason why there are any chuckleheads even suggesting that Garrett Wilson isn't elite is his QB play.
And that sort of proves the point.
There’s a lot of elite WRs then. I reserve the elite for the hill’s, chase’s, Jefferson’s of the world.
Matter of opinion I guess.
Not really. I understand his QB is abysmal. And it was last year too. But other WRs have produced with similar circumstances.
Lets look at it this way. Lets look at these WRs:
Olave
Evans
Cooper
Deebo
DJ Moore
Michael Pittman
These guys have produced similar stats over the last two years as Wilson and their QB has had a lot to be desired for as well. Evans may be the only elite one left but he is trending down. And obviously I would take Wilson over many of these WRs but Wilson isnt there yet.
Chase, Jefferson, Hill, Brown, Kupp, Adams, Diggs, Lamb - just a tier better IMO. He's with the Evans, Coopers, Allens , Mewtcalfs of the game.
It’s not even “probably” worse QB play, it is definitely worse QB play. Winston May be a turnover machine, but he can throw TDs, he’s far better than Zach Wilson.
Really?
Wilson: 1100 yards and 4 TDs
Cooper 1160 yards and 9 TDs
Olave: 1040 yards and 4 TDs
Pittman: 925 yards and 4 TDs
Evans: 1120 yards and 6 TDs
Moore: 900 yards and 7 TDs
Seem all pretty equal to me. I dont think the likes of Baker Mayfield, Jacoby Brissett, Jameis Winston/Dalton, the corpse of Matt Ryan/Ehlinger would be consider massive upgrades over anyone....
Hes not as good as the top WRs. Lets just stop the nonsense.
The Bengals, Bills, Dolphins, and Philly amongst others got their QB and then went and added an elite WR. The Texans will likely be looking to do the same this offseason.
Get the QB then go get the pieces, otherwise you’re just spinning your wheels and wasting money.
The Bengals, Bills, Dolphins, and Philly amongst others got their QB and then went and added an elite WR. The Texans will likely be looking to do the same this offseason.
Get the QB then go get the pieces, otherwise you’re just spinning your wheels and wasting money.
Did I say that? I have been a proponent taking Caleb Williams for weeks now. Or if he is gone take Maye. But you still need the elite WR to make it work.
And some of those teams needed that WR to make that QB elite. All that matters is you get both.
That must be why the Raiders and Jets are having such good years
Wilson isn’t elite yet.
But you know damn well having an elite WR is a huge factor in great offenses. [/quote]
Where did I say a WR didn’t matter? A WR isn’t going to make the oline look better if the argument on here is that a top QB wouldn’t even look good behind the line.
Where did I say a WR didn’t matter? A WR isn’t going to make the oline look better if the argument on here is that a top QB wouldn’t even look good behind the line.
I didnt say you didnt either. I dont know which direction you are going in.
Again, I will re-iterate this. IMO, you need a great QB and a stud WR to compete for championships today. And we can argue back and forth what you need first, it doesnt matter cause it doesnt matter.
We are in a position where we dont have either. So if we get one in the draft, we still arent competing for anything until we get the other. So if we miss out on Williams or Maye and we get harrison, and we get the QB next year - thats fine.
Getting a stud WR isnt going to help a guy like Jones become a title contendign QB, and drafting a QB like Williams isnt making us a contender next year anyways. Get the talent at those positions right in the next two years. That should be the focus.