Q: Along the lines of the line, since John Michael has gotten back from his injury and has kind of settled in again, is there anything you can point to in his game that you can see now that you weren’t really seeing earlier in the year and that kind of speaks to his development and growth as a player?
A: I’d just say there’s been steady improvement, really in every area. Are there plays that he wishes (he could have) back? Sure, everybody has those plays. Particularly the guys who play inside there, but I think it’s been good for him to have (guard Ben) Bredeson next to him as a good communicator, Pugh. Those guys are continuing to work on fundamental things that help them, but he’s got the right approach. I’d say each game he plays, he gets more experience, there’s different things that he sees that maybe he didn’t see at the college level. Different powers, different sets, different rushes, different looks that he has to communicate, but I’d say his communication has been steadily improved. He’s a smart, young player.
Sy - would you say that Schoen has really been hitting on the defensive side of the ball with his drafts vs the offense? Any insights into that or more so just a luck thing with the players taken?
3. I am interested in seeing how this coaching staff handles the workload of Saquon Barkley moving forward. He is on pace for the most touches per game in a season over his entire career. We all know about the contract situation, and we all know there is nothing behind him who comes even close to matching what he can produce. There is a lot of football left and Barkley has proven to be a team-first guy, but if they do not slow down his usage, we could see him suffer another breakdown. Yes, “it is part of the game” but I do wonder if there will be a point where they pull him back a bit, especially if they plan to keep him around in 2024.
This is a point I've been very interested in since the Giants were out of contention.
If they start load managing Barkley, they very well might not score double digits per game.
Stroud as the reason not to worry about draft position. The Giants, who had no chance at no. 1 were clinging to number 2, which of course is where Stroud went. Now they are 5 and have a winnable game against the Pats that would drop then four or five more spots. Three QBs went in the first four picks last year. The next one didn't go until the second pick in the second round.
You don't get a lot of shots at potential franchise QBs. You take one when you do. And when you are out of the playoff hunt you should be getting at least some playing time for every young guy you can.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving but I suspect you may be on the road later this week with some meaningful games coming up.
For several years you have been "pounding the table" for interior oline upgrades and each week I see the same pressure up the middle. Besides Schmitz, is anyone of the current guard group worth keeping (except maybe as backup). I still feel coaching is an issue as none of the oline have improved in the past two years(save Thomas).
Agree that DeVito each week makes big gains. Have a funny feeling that after he sees video(film, tape?) of holding the ball too long, this will be his next improvement. Get the ball out quicker.....or throw away.
after the season. Quite frankly this team needs players period. But, they need to show some winning ability. While we were all excited (I raise my hand as one who absolutely was excited) about last year when we look back at it we might not be that far off from this year really. The one main difference is we were hit with injuries to our Oline and it just shut everything good down. That led to our QB being exposed a bit (get to that more in a different post) and even more than that exposed the fact that our entire offensive roster was built upon a very thin edge of health and system. Take the health away and the system was now more reliant on individuals playing above their heads and pulling others with them and that didn't happen.
3. I am interested in seeing how this coaching staff handles the workload of Saquon Barkley moving forward. He is on pace for the most touches per game in a season over his entire career. We all know about the contract situation, and we all know there is nothing behind him who comes even close to matching what he can produce. There is a lot of football left and Barkley has proven to be a team-first guy, but if they do not slow down his usage, we could see him suffer another breakdown. Yes, “it is part of the game” but I do wonder if there will be a point where they pull him back a bit, especially if they plan to keep him around in 2024.
This is a point I've been very interested in since the Giants were out of contention.
If they start load managing Barkley, they very well might not score double digits per game.
If DeVito keeps improving weekly, they may be able to put Breida in more frequently as he is better at picking up blitzes. That would save Barkley from stressful plays. Completing more passes(and deeper) helps reduce the Barkley touches, too.
a lot of people here kind of buried Flott early on
I was never sure why, because I thought he showed a lot of promise. As Sy says in the review, his development this year is one of the genuine silver linings in this dingy season.
If they start load managing Barkley, they very well might not score double digits per game.
If DeVito keeps improving weekly, they may be able to put Breida in more frequently as he is better at picking up blitzes. That would save Barkley from stressful plays. Completing more passes(and deeper) helps reduce the Barkley touches, too.
I agree. DeVito may very well be the key to Barkley being a Giant next year.
3. I am interested in seeing how this coaching staff handles the workload of Saquon Barkley moving forward. He is on pace for the most touches per game in a season over his entire career. We all know about the contract situation, and we all know there is nothing behind him who comes even close to matching what he can produce. There is a lot of football left and Barkley has proven to be a team-first guy, but if they do not slow down his usage, we could see him suffer another breakdown. Yes, “it is part of the game” but I do wonder if there will be a point where they pull him back a bit, especially if they plan to keep him around in 2024.
This is a point I've been very interested in since the Giants were out of contention.
If they start load managing Barkley, they very well might not score double digits per game.
If DeVito keeps improving weekly, they may be able to put Breida in more frequently as he is better at picking up blitzes. That would save Barkley from stressful plays. Completing more passes(and deeper) helps reduce the Barkley touches, too.
Saquon had a bad game pass blocking, but his pass blocking has been a positive over the last 2 seasons.
RE: a lot of people here kind of buried Flott early on
I was never sure why, because I thought he showed a lot of promise. As Sy says in the review, his development this year is one of the genuine silver linings in this dingy season.
I don't think the coaching staff liked him that much; wasn't he a healthy scratch for the first few games?
JMS one of the duds. "JMS allowed 2 TFL and a sack. I’ve highlighted his movement issues recently and it appears the league has caught onto them as well. The lateral speed and adjustments are a notch too slow, and it’s lessened his power impact. He was put on ice skates a few times and it disrupted the zone running game."
Not true? What is JMS upside?
Seems to be a in game performer. He hasn’t perform all that well in training camp and that has caused the coaching staff to look in other directions (Holmes).
Do you think JMS can improve with lateral movement with offseason training and more experience? My biggest fear is that as an older rookie, he has very limited upside.
Saquon had a bad game pass blocking, but his pass blocking has been a positive over the last 2 seasons.
Yes he is far better than he was in previous seasons. The ankle may very well be a reason he had issues this week. But, Breida really is more reliable and catches the ball well. I was thinking that using Breida more helps DeVito stay upright but also keeps Barkley from putting stress on that ankle by not having to stymie LBs coming up the middle. Manages his load while improving pass protection.
JMS one of the duds. "JMS allowed 2 TFL and a sack. I’ve highlighted his movement issues recently and it appears the league has caught onto them as well. The lateral speed and adjustments are a notch too slow, and it’s lessened his power impact. He was put on ice skates a few times and it disrupted the zone running game."
Not true? What is JMS upside?
BBI in 2022. KT isn't as good as adversed. He looks like a bust.
Do me a favor? Tell me what other rookies are starting at center in the NFL. I'll wait.
JMS one of the duds. "JMS allowed 2 TFL and a sack. I’ve highlighted his movement issues recently and it appears the league has caught onto them as well. The lateral speed and adjustments are a notch too slow, and it’s lessened his power impact. He was put on ice skates a few times and it disrupted the zone running game."
Not true? What is JMS upside?
BBI in 2022. KT isn't as good as adversed. He looks like a bust.
Do me a favor? Tell me what other rookies are starting at center in the NFL. I'll wait.
The lack of patience with young players is confounding. The shift from college to the NFL is huge. Some on this board would have declared Strahan a bust after his first few years. Everyone wanted to dump Tiki and he is arguably the best Giant RB ever. Same with Toomer. It happens over and over but some fans never learn.
The weird thing is many fans never seem to learn this lesson. It's a blind spot for them.
That doesn't mean there are not busts or guys who don't develop, but it's absurd to form definitive conclusions in the first and second season.
Even the guy we're all worried about - Evan Neal. He may in fact be a bust, but two things: (1) note how none of the other OLs on this team who have been as poor in the sacks department are not getting the hate/blame he got, and (2) from the time of camp, Neal never got in a rhythm this year. I wish he was out there, not Phillips.
if he's one of the 10 best pass blockers in the league? Not questioning that assertion and it does line up with PFF's grades but is the matchup bad or is it just a coincidence that Thibs has played 2 of his best games as a pro when lining up against him?
Thanks as always for the review, even in a lost season I look forward to reading them each week.
Week 1: Ben Bredeson and rookie John Michael Schmitz both played all 70 snaps, and both graded out well below average. Bredeson allowed a pressure and a TFL. He was also flagged for a holding penalty. While he is the top left guard on this team, he has too many snaps where he looks like he is better suited for the interior backup role. The lack of bend and adjustment speed are issues against a fast defense like this. He looks the part in the running game, and he gets movement off the ball, but I am concerned about any potential progress he can make as a pass blocker. Schmitz is a step behind the power component to pro tackles. He wound up getting pushed back 3-4 yards on plays he needed to get lateral. It completely threw off the vital timing variables to the outside zone NYG likes to use. He, too, was better in the power game going downhill.
Week 2: Center John Michael Schmitz was rock solid all game. I still see him losing too much ground on these aggressive outside zone runs but he isn’t getting beat and that is what’s most important. I also saw him make a couple instinctive moves that I only see a handful of centers make in the league. Combine that with the perfect grade in pass protection and two QB sneak successes, his grade was very good.
Week 3: Despite a couple of ugly losses to Javon Hargrave, I ended with a positive grade on rookie center John Michael Schmitz. He allowed one pressure was driven back badly on an outside zone run (again) that caused a TFL. Besides that, I thought he moved well to the second level, provided quality help in pass protection, and anchored well. From my perspective re-watching the game, there appeared to be minimal communication issues up front. I credit that to Schmitz. Execution has not been good, we know, but the assignments have seemed cleaner than I remember over the past two-three years.
Week 4: Hurt early in game.
Week 5: Did not play.
Week 6: Did not play.
Week 7: Did not play.
Week 8: John Michael Schmitz returned for the first time since Week 4. The rookie excelled in gap blocking and was a key component to a couple of the big NYG runs. He ended up on the ground often, however, and looks heavy footed when matched against pure speed, allowing a TFL and a pressure. That will be an issue for him that I do not see going away, not this season anyway. But there was some good cohesion up front, and I want to believe it was a result of him being back.
Week 9: The interior was the best trio we have seen this season. Justin Pugh moved back to his more natural position (left guard) and while he did allow 3 pressures, his game was mistake free mentally. That has been a significant cause of line problems this year and he communicated and reacted well along with center John Michael Schmitz, who allowed just one pressure. The versatile Ben Bredeson shifted over to right guard and finished with the lowest grade on the line. He allowed 1.5 sacks (one could be argued was not his fault), 1 pressure, and 1 TFL. All three were solid in the running game and I would sign up for this caliber of performance out of them for the rest of the year right now.
Week 10: Pugh essentially split his snaps between left guard and tackle. He allowed 3 pressures and a QB hit and got tossed around in the running game. Pugh and rookie center John Michael Schmitz were displaced by Dallas defenders for most of the game, lacking anchor and balance. Schmitz spends too much time on the ground and the reaction speed looks labored. There are some Evan Neal traits here (no, I am not comparing the level of play to Neal) in that his ability to recover his body control when initially lost is concerning. It will be high up on the list of skills he needs to work on.
Week 1: Ben Bredeson and rookie John Michael Schmitz both played all 70 snaps, and both graded out well below average. Bredeson allowed a pressure and a TFL. He was also flagged for a holding penalty. While he is the top left guard on this team, he has too many snaps where he looks like he is better suited for the interior backup role. The lack of bend and adjustment speed are issues against a fast defense like this. He looks the part in the running game, and he gets movement off the ball, but I am concerned about any potential progress he can make as a pass blocker. Schmitz is a step behind the power component to pro tackles. He wound up getting pushed back 3-4 yards on plays he needed to get lateral. It completely threw off the vital timing variables to the outside zone NYG likes to use. He, too, was better in the power game going downhill.
Week 2: Center John Michael Schmitz was rock solid all game. I still see him losing too much ground on these aggressive outside zone runs but he isn’t getting beat and that is what’s most important. I also saw him make a couple instinctive moves that I only see a handful of centers make in the league. Combine that with the perfect grade in pass protection and two QB sneak successes, his grade was very good.
Week 3: Despite a couple of ugly losses to Javon Hargrave, I ended with a positive grade on rookie center John Michael Schmitz. He allowed one pressure was driven back badly on an outside zone run (again) that caused a TFL. Besides that, I thought he moved well to the second level, provided quality help in pass protection, and anchored well. From my perspective re-watching the game, there appeared to be minimal communication issues up front. I credit that to Schmitz. Execution has not been good, we know, but the assignments have seemed cleaner than I remember over the past two-three years.
Week 4: Hurt early in game.
Week 5: Did not play.
Week 6: Did not play.
Week 7: Did not play.
Week 8: John Michael Schmitz returned for the first time since Week 4. The rookie excelled in gap blocking and was a key component to a couple of the big NYG runs. He ended up on the ground often, however, and looks heavy footed when matched against pure speed, allowing a TFL and a pressure. That will be an issue for him that I do not see going away, not this season anyway. But there was some good cohesion up front, and I want to believe it was a result of him being back.
Week 9: The interior was the best trio we have seen this season. Justin Pugh moved back to his more natural position (left guard) and while he did allow 3 pressures, his game was mistake free mentally. That has been a significant cause of line problems this year and he communicated and reacted well along with center John Michael Schmitz, who allowed just one pressure. The versatile Ben Bredeson shifted over to right guard and finished with the lowest grade on the line. He allowed 1.5 sacks (one could be argued was not his fault), 1 pressure, and 1 TFL. All three were solid in the running game and I would sign up for this caliber of performance out of them for the rest of the year right now.
Week 10: Pugh essentially split his snaps between left guard and tackle. He allowed 3 pressures and a QB hit and got tossed around in the running game. Pugh and rookie center John Michael Schmitz were displaced by Dallas defenders for most of the game, lacking anchor and balance. Schmitz spends too much time on the ground and the reaction speed looks labored. There are some Evan Neal traits here (no, I am not comparing the level of play to Neal) in that his ability to recover his body control when initially lost is concerning. It will be high up on the list of skills he needs to work on.
**********
Guess what? Up and down. From a rookie? No way!
I think particular types of fans, mired in this culture of losing for so long, are lashing out at any and all imperfections, as they put so much stock into every single thread of hope, if that thread frays just slightly, they want to purchase a new garment right away, after they have burned down the shop. This to me is when fandom overlaps real life temperament and short comings.
It still boggles my mind that we basically are way better than Washington in every game we play against them. And Washington plays Philly and Dallas fairly well.
"Giants fans were upset they did not get Chase Young and had to settle for Andrew Thomas. The team needs to find the pieces on this roster who are worth building around. They need to find guys who are good at football and who can be relied upon. That is the goal. If they find them, it will lead to wins, period. This would be a net-positive even though it may mess with your mock drafts and fantasies."
Tell Sy to stop mentioning JMS physical shortcomings.
Better idea - stop cherry picking Sy's reviews. Washington's interior line is pretty decent. Sy reports on facts as he sees them game to game. Rookies have peaks and valleys. How they correct them is important.
Thomas had bad games his 1st season and see where he is now.
It still boggles my mind that we basically are way better than Washington in every game we play against them. And Washington plays Philly and Dallas fairly well.
No different than the late '80s/early '90s. We owned the Skins then too, and the Skins owned the Eagles, and the Eagles owned us.
after the season. Quite frankly this team needs players period. But, they need to show some winning ability. While we were all excited (I raise my hand as one who absolutely was excited) about last year when we look back at it we might not be that far off from this year really. The one main difference is we were hit with injuries to our Oline and it just shut everything good down. That led to our QB being exposed a bit (get to that more in a different post) and even more than that exposed the fact that our entire offensive roster was built upon a very thin edge of health and system. Take the health away and the system was now more reliant on individuals playing above their heads and pulling others with them and that didn't happen.
The ability to win comes first and foremost with good players. Picking in the 12 to 18 range every year is a recipe for mediocre teams remaining mediocre. When picking 12 to 18 you have top get lucky to get a star, particularly at QB.
The unbelievable list of injuries this year put this team in the position for a very high draft pick, and very good odds of finding a franchise QB who could be on the team for 15 years. It's how the Spurs got David Robinson and then Tim Duncan. There are many other examples. The Cowboys got Elliott because Romo got hurt and missed most of the previous season.
It's not unreasonable to make the argument that after making the playoffs last year, getting crushed by injuries this year puts them in a position to add a very good draft onto what last year was a borderline playoff team with some solid young talent. Including getting the star QB many here want.
RE: Sy - why do you think Leno has such a problem with Thibs
if he's one of the 10 best pass blockers in the league? Not questioning that assertion and it does line up with PFF's grades but is the matchup bad or is it just a coincidence that Thibs has played 2 of his best games as a pro when lining up against him?
Thanks as always for the review, even in a lost season I look forward to reading them each week.
I certainly don't have Sy's knowledge, but some guys just have other guys' number. The guy who gave LT the most trouble was Irv Pankey of the Rams. Nice player, but he was no star - no Pro Bowls or anything. For whatever reason, he played his best against Taylor and did better than All-Pros and Pro Bowlers like Joe Jacoby, Luis Sharpe, and Jim Lachey.
after the season. Quite frankly this team needs players period. But, they need to show some winning ability. While we were all excited (I raise my hand as one who absolutely was excited) about last year when we look back at it we might not be that far off from this year really. The one main difference is we were hit with injuries to our Oline and it just shut everything good down. That led to our QB being exposed a bit (get to that more in a different post) and even more than that exposed the fact that our entire offensive roster was built upon a very thin edge of health and system. Take the health away and the system was now more reliant on individuals playing above their heads and pulling others with them and that didn't happen.
The ability to win comes first and foremost with good players. Picking in the 12 to 18 range every year is a recipe for mediocre teams remaining mediocre. When picking 12 to 18 you have top get lucky to get a star, particularly at QB.
The unbelievable list of injuries this year put this team in the position for a very high draft pick, and very good odds of finding a franchise QB who could be on the team for 15 years. It's how the Spurs got David Robinson and then Tim Duncan. There are many other examples. The Cowboys got Elliott because Romo got hurt and missed most of the previous season.
It's not unreasonable to make the argument that after making the playoffs last year, getting crushed by injuries this year puts them in a position to add a very good draft onto what last year was a borderline playoff team with some solid young talent. Including getting the star QB many here want.
Sure. But you suggesting that coaches and players are going to go out there and tank is ludicrous. It’s simply not realistic. There are 6 freakin games to go. These guys are all fighting for their jobs. And just playing the “young guys” is already being done. They have the youngest starting 22 in the NFL, including a UDFA practice squad QB. You want them to bench the young guys that are part of the future and do what, exactly? They’ve already basically run out of bodies to throw out there
JMS one of the duds. "JMS allowed 2 TFL and a sack. I’ve highlighted his movement issues recently and it appears the league has caught onto them as well. The lateral speed and adjustments are a notch too slow, and it’s lessened his power impact. He was put on ice skates a few times and it disrupted the zone running game."
Not true? What is JMS upside?
BBI in 2022. KT isn't as good as adversed. He looks like a bust.
Do me a favor? Tell me what other rookies are starting at center in the NFL. I'll wait.
The lack of patience with young players is confounding. The shift from college to the NFL is huge. Some on this board would have declared Strahan a bust after his first few years. Everyone wanted to dump Tiki and he is arguably the best Giant RB ever. Same with Toomer. It happens over and over but some fans never learn.
More pressure than ever to get them out there playing at a high level from the first day. Just to take advantage of the contract.
Week 1: Ben Bredeson and rookie John Michael Schmitz both played all 70 snaps, and both graded out well below average. Bredeson allowed a pressure and a TFL. He was also flagged for a holding penalty. While he is the top left guard on this team, he has too many snaps where he looks like he is better suited for the interior backup role. The lack of bend and adjustment speed are issues against a fast defense like this. He looks the part in the running game, and he gets movement off the ball, but I am concerned about any potential progress he can make as a pass blocker. Schmitz is a step behind the power component to pro tackles. He wound up getting pushed back 3-4 yards on plays he needed to get lateral. It completely threw off the vital timing variables to the outside zone NYG likes to use. He, too, was better in the power game going downhill.
Week 2: Center John Michael Schmitz was rock solid all game. I still see him losing too much ground on these aggressive outside zone runs but he isn’t getting beat and that is what’s most important. I also saw him make a couple instinctive moves that I only see a handful of centers make in the league. Combine that with the perfect grade in pass protection and two QB sneak successes, his grade was very good.
Week 3: Despite a couple of ugly losses to Javon Hargrave, I ended with a positive grade on rookie center John Michael Schmitz. He allowed one pressure was driven back badly on an outside zone run (again) that caused a TFL. Besides that, I thought he moved well to the second level, provided quality help in pass protection, and anchored well. From my perspective re-watching the game, there appeared to be minimal communication issues up front. I credit that to Schmitz. Execution has not been good, we know, but the assignments have seemed cleaner than I remember over the past two-three years.
Week 4: Hurt early in game.
Week 5: Did not play.
Week 6: Did not play.
Week 7: Did not play.
Week 8: John Michael Schmitz returned for the first time since Week 4. The rookie excelled in gap blocking and was a key component to a couple of the big NYG runs. He ended up on the ground often, however, and looks heavy footed when matched against pure speed, allowing a TFL and a pressure. That will be an issue for him that I do not see going away, not this season anyway. But there was some good cohesion up front, and I want to believe it was a result of him being back.
Week 9: The interior was the best trio we have seen this season. Justin Pugh moved back to his more natural position (left guard) and while he did allow 3 pressures, his game was mistake free mentally. That has been a significant cause of line problems this year and he communicated and reacted well along with center John Michael Schmitz, who allowed just one pressure. The versatile Ben Bredeson shifted over to right guard and finished with the lowest grade on the line. He allowed 1.5 sacks (one could be argued was not his fault), 1 pressure, and 1 TFL. All three were solid in the running game and I would sign up for this caliber of performance out of them for the rest of the year right now.
Week 10: Pugh essentially split his snaps between left guard and tackle. He allowed 3 pressures and a QB hit and got tossed around in the running game. Pugh and rookie center John Michael Schmitz were displaced by Dallas defenders for most of the game, lacking anchor and balance. Schmitz spends too much time on the ground and the reaction speed looks labored. There are some Evan Neal traits here (no, I am not comparing the level of play to Neal) in that his ability to recover his body control when initially lost is concerning. It will be high up on the list of skills he needs to work on.
**********
Guess what? Up and down. From a rookie? No way!
In all fairness, it goes both ways. I recall seeing several posts after the first few weeks (and even some during training camp) declaring that we had found our center for the next 12 years.
JMS is fine. He has looked the part but been inconsistent and the injury sucked. We do this time and time again with rookies and it is not fair - have to give them a year plus to develop - sometimes even more.
We are shell shocked from bad rookies who didn't perform under the DG era and don't get better. To me, I see that he is competent center right now and he belongs in the NFL. It is nice to say that after his first 7-8 games or so. He'll get better.
There's a great clip floating around on twitter of JMS completely taking Jonathan Allen out of the play on a nice run block. To me - that shows nice development out of the kid.
but his blocking was better in this game than previous weeks."
The Giants must be near the top of the NFL in getting their RBs drilled in the backfield. There are two reasons for this: The offensive line sucks and the TE sucks. Glad to hear Bellinger showed some improvement this past Sunday because he is not going to make it in the NFL on his receiving prowess alone. He needs to block, block and then block some more for him to be of any use.
Nobody is suggesting he get benched (my post was sarcasm, poorly executed). Some posters like to claim there is an angry mob shouting things just so that they can claim to be the voice of reason.
Thanks for another hijacking christian. No - I read threads and can tell what people are saying based on what they post. I don't save posts for future embarrassing takedowns like you guys do.
Plenty of posters have discussed JMS' play not being up to par and that he should be showing more early on.
Thanks for another hijacking christian. No - I read threads and can tell what people are saying based on what they post. I don't save posts for future embarrassing takedowns like you guys do.
Plenty of posters have discussed JMS' play not being up to par and that he should be showing more early on.
The weird thing is many fans never seem to learn this lesson. It's a blind spot for them.
That doesn't mean there are not busts or guys who don't develop, but it's absurd to form definitive conclusions in the first and second season.
Even the guy we're all worried about - Evan Neal. He may in fact be a bust, but two things: (1) note how none of the other OLs on this team who have been as poor in the sacks department are not getting the hate/blame he got, and (2) from the time of camp, Neal never got in a rhythm this year. I wish he was out there, not Phillips.
Glad he got a stud award, he deserved it... Man I have to say a couple of the passes he made in this game were pretty high level... especially that TD to Barkley.
Can we actually win consistently with shine box as our QB? Or was this game an outlier against a bad team? Curious what other people are thinking. If he stops holding the ball and keeps making plays like that in the passing game... things could get interesting.
Personally I have a feeling it's an outlier, but fun to think about it... lol
And they are athleticism based. Balance is NOT something you want to struggle with. But balance can be improved as these guys get into their "man" years.
That said - the most important variable to a center is between the ears. They don't all need to move like Kelce. They need to be good enough physically and very good mentally.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving but I suspect you may be on the road later this week with some meaningful games coming up.
For several years you have been "pounding the table" for interior oline upgrades and each week I see the same pressure up the middle. Besides Schmitz, is anyone of the current guard group worth keeping (except maybe as backup). I still feel coaching is an issue as none of the oline have improved in the past two years(save Thomas).
Agree that DeVito each week makes big gains. Have a funny feeling that after he sees video(film, tape?) of holding the ball too long, this will be his next improvement. Get the ball out quicker.....or throw away.
IMO, any top picks we may have should go to the OL. Also IMO, it's possible to play well with an average QB if you have a real strong OL. The OL makes the offense go.
Always a great read. I hope the Giants limit SB's snaps the rest of the year. Unlike parts of last season, where he seemed to make some business decisions, I think he has played balls to the wall this year. He deserves to be less beat up, since if he gets worn down, or worse hurt, it really negatively impacts his contract possibilities next year.
the most important variable to a center is between the ears...They need to be good enough physically and very good mentally.
Bart Oates and Shaun O'Hara weren't athletically gifted enough to be drafted, but Oates has three Super Bowl rings and five Pro Bowls to his credit while O'Hara has one ring and three Pro Bowl appearances.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving but I suspect you may be on the road later this week with some meaningful games coming up.
For several years you have been "pounding the table" for interior oline upgrades and each week I see the same pressure up the middle. Besides Schmitz, is anyone of the current guard group worth keeping (except maybe as backup). I still feel coaching is an issue as none of the oline have improved in the past two years(save Thomas).
Agree that DeVito each week makes big gains. Have a funny feeling that after he sees video(film, tape?) of holding the ball too long, this will be his next improvement. Get the ball out quicker.....or throw away.
Ezeudu is worth keeping around - I think if he gets a full offseason and in-season development opportunity - he can stick at guard.
the most important variable to a center is between the ears...They need to be good enough physically and very good mentally.
Bart Oates and Shaun O'Hara weren't athletically gifted enough to be drafted, but Oates has three Super Bowl rings and five Pro Bowls to his credit while O'Hara has one ring and three Pro Bowl appearances.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving but I suspect you may be on the road later this week with some meaningful games coming up.
For several years you have been "pounding the table" for interior oline upgrades and each week I see the same pressure up the middle. Besides Schmitz, is anyone of the current guard group worth keeping (except maybe as backup). I still feel coaching is an issue as none of the oline have improved in the past two years(save Thomas).
Agree that DeVito each week makes big gains. Have a funny feeling that after he sees video(film, tape?) of holding the ball too long, this will be his next improvement. Get the ball out quicker.....or throw away.
Ezeudu is worth keeping around - I think if he gets a full offseason and in-season development opportunity - he can stick at guard.
Thanks Sy. He is the one guy I think can be a good IOL.
Thanks for another hijacking christian. No - I read threads and can tell what people are saying based on what they post. I don't save posts for future embarrassing takedowns like you guys do.
Plenty of posters have discussed JMS' play not being up to par and that he should be showing more early on.
So just to be clear. This is a sentiment you made up or exaggerated?
And this team has an identity. Only joy this year has been watching him and Dex get after QBs.
This simple fact seems to be ignored by NYG or at least something they fail to reach time and time again. If you want to sustain winning in the NFL you absolutely have to be great at something.
The Giants could be great on defense if they played their cards right this off-season. As is it's OK. but the pieces in place are big time talents and not easy to find. They just need to add some good players at edge and DL. Far too often I think the Giants have subscribed to the belief that they need to spread the wealth around and patch a hole rather than build a unit into an elite strength.
Adding JMS in the second round was so important to this team.
The Giants have been floundering at Center for years and the rookie is just what the doctor ordered for a team "lost in space" on the Interior OL.
Show some patience for guys that deserve it. And JMS does and we need him to develop into a plus player to handle some difficult NFCE defensive lineman.
This site has some good fans/posters with decent football acumen. But when it comes to what is going on with the Offensive Line play...not so much.
Crazy game. Despite having committed five (and nearly six) turnovers, the Commanders still had a chance to win the game at the end. And a Giants win wasn't ensured until they committed their sixth turnover, Howell's pick six.
This is more of a general question. But, how surprising is it that Tommy DeVito started in a NFL game and threw 3 TD's in a road win. When you gather all the upcoming QB prospects and someone told you DeVito would do that, would that have shocked you?
Thanks for another hijacking christian. No - I read threads and can tell what people are saying based on what they post. I don't save posts for future embarrassing takedowns like you guys do.
Plenty of posters have discussed JMS' play not being up to par and that he should be showing more early on.
So just to be clear. This is a sentiment you made up or exaggerated?
Not to hijack this thread but I love how people whine that people follow GoTerps around like he's some victim of an unruly mob, but for crissakes you and other posters follow Ryan like a bunch of twats. Every time he posts something, I can count on you and 3 or 4 others to start chirping and turning every frickin thread into your little personal pissing match. It's really tiresome.
This is more of a general question. But, how surprising is it that Tommy DeVito started in a NFL game and threw 3 TD's in a road win. When you gather all the upcoming QB prospects and someone told you DeVito would do that, would that have shocked you?
To be honest - I don't get surprised much anymore. Things always happen that I not expect - but that happens every year in every sport. That is part of the draw to sports when it comes to entertainment - you never know what will happen.
Also why the betting industry is so big. And most lose money to it.
Not to hijack this thread but I love how people whine that people follow GoTerps around like he's some victim of an unruly mob, but for crissakes you and other posters follow Ryan like a bunch of twats. Every time he posts something, I can count on you and 3 or 4 others to start chirping and turning every frickin thread into your little personal pissing match. It's really tiresome.
I think everyone who participates in this community has a choice on what they post and what they read.
I try to ask earnest questions and keep my responses directly related to the topic being discussed.
Ryan gives as much as he takes on this site. My guess on what you're observing is he feels strongly about a handful of topics and I feel strongly about the opposing position.
Only speaking for myself, but if I were to post a hyperbolic, poorly reasoned, or incorrect position -- I'd have no problem being challenged.
after the season. Quite frankly this team needs players period. But, they need to show some winning ability. While we were all excited (I raise my hand as one who absolutely was excited) about last year when we look back at it we might not be that far off from this year really. The one main difference is we were hit with injuries to our Oline and it just shut everything good down. That led to our QB being exposed a bit (get to that more in a different post) and even more than that exposed the fact that our entire offensive roster was built upon a very thin edge of health and system. Take the health away and the system was now more reliant on individuals playing above their heads and pulling others with them and that didn't happen.
The ability to win comes first and foremost with good players. Picking in the 12 to 18 range every year is a recipe for mediocre teams remaining mediocre. When picking 12 to 18 you have top get lucky to get a star, particularly at QB.
The unbelievable list of injuries this year put this team in the position for a very high draft pick, and very good odds of finding a franchise QB who could be on the team for 15 years. It's how the Spurs got David Robinson and then Tim Duncan. There are many other examples. The Cowboys got Elliott because Romo got hurt and missed most of the previous season.
It's not unreasonable to make the argument that after making the playoffs last year, getting crushed by injuries this year puts them in a position to add a very good draft onto what last year was a borderline playoff team with some solid young talent. Including getting the star QB many here want.
Sure. But you suggesting that coaches and players are going to go out there and tank is ludicrous. It’s simply not realistic. There are 6 freakin games to go. These guys are all fighting for their jobs. And just playing the “young guys” is already being done. They have the youngest starting 22 in the NFL, including a UDFA practice squad QB. You want them to bench the young guys that are part of the future and do what, exactly? They’ve already basically run out of bodies to throw out there
I have not in any post advocated for the players and coaches to tank. I have said losing games and getting the 2 or 3 pick would be fantastic for this team. I never said I wanted or expected them to not play their best.
At the same time, getting younger guys game experience is not the same as tanking. It is something smart teams do when the playoffs are out of reach. Sadly, over the last 10 years, the Giants have refused to do it because 'it wouldn't be good' for the league. Sorry, but the Giants first responsibility is to the Giants.
QB is such a fascinating position to me. It's like a volatile stock. If DeVito puts together a few good games (not saying he will), he'd have a higher stock price than guys like Trey Lance, Will Grier, Matt Coral and Malik Willis - all much better prospects within the last 2 years.
It's amazing how quickly a QB can fizzle out and someone like DeVito is now starting games for the Giants. DeVito is getting an opportunity some other guys who are better prospects won't.
the Giants won the turnover battle 6-0 and Washington still had a chance to win at the end.
As Acid said, Wash had a chance after the 5th turnover. #6 sealed it. But I agree that 5-0 and having the game still undecided is pretty astonishing (even more than winning a game while taking 9 sacks).
Makes me realize just how good ladanian was. That guy once he got to the next level was GONE. He housed touchdowns like rookie saquon did for an entire career.
QB is such a fascinating position to me. It's like a volatile stock. If DeVito puts together a few good games (not saying he will), he'd have a higher stock price than guys like Trey Lance, Will Grier, Matt Coral and Malik Willis - all much better prospects within the last 2 years.
It's amazing how quickly a QB can fizzle out and someone like DeVito is now starting games for the Giants. DeVito is getting an opportunity some other guys who are better prospects won't.
FWIW, I think that being able to quickly read the defense and the field is the most important aspect of being a NFL QB. Next step up is being accurate and the next step up a level is having a rocket arm.
It is possible DeVito has that ability to read, although he missed some on Sunday. Let's see how he does this week. He got sacked 9xs because he took too long with the ball in his hands either not trusting his reads or not making the read(hopefully the former). If he takes the next step in getting it out quickly they may have soemthing because he certainly looks to have an accurate arm with some juice.
See if Devito and the OL can sort it against the Pats
Half the nine sacks were the collapsing interior (with JMS who as Sy notes had an uncharacteristically tough game). DJ or TT could step an navigate that. DeVito couldn't. Hung in there fabulously but just kind of let himself get swallowed. Interested to see if that's something he can improve on.
The 6 turnovers deserve a positive asterisk. Sometimes TOs are lucky bounces or gifts from opposing players. But every one of our TOs was truly forced with disruptive play from the D.
QB is such a fascinating position to me. It's like a volatile stock. If DeVito puts together a few good games (not saying he will), he'd have a higher stock price than guys like Trey Lance, Will Grier, Matt Coral and Malik Willis - all much better prospects within the last 2 years.
It's amazing how quickly a QB can fizzle out and someone like DeVito is now starting games for the Giants. DeVito is getting an opportunity some other guys who are better prospects won't.
FWIW, I think that being able to quickly read the defense and the field is the most important aspect of being a NFL QB. Next step up is being accurate and the next step up a level is having a rocket arm.
It is possible DeVito has that ability to read, although he missed some on Sunday. Let's see how he does this week. He got sacked 9xs because he took too long with the ball in his hands either not trusting his reads or not making the read(hopefully the former). If he takes the next step in getting it out quickly they may have soemthing because he certainly looks to have an accurate arm with some juice.
I’m a Syracuse fan and seen all of DeVitos games at ‘Cuse. The issues with holding the ball too long is just who he’s always been. He’s got a terrific arm and some mobility but from the first game he started to his last he was always a guy that would always look for the big play. He rarely checked the ball down even when the opportunity presented itself. When the deep shot wasn’t there he’d either take a sack or take off running. And he was often injured because of it. Hopefully NFL coaching can get through to him because he absolutely has talent but that’s a tall task. He’s a gunslinger at heart and needs to be reprogrammed. That’ll take some time. If it’s even possible at this point
I’m a Syracuse fan and seen all of DeVitos games at ‘Cuse. The issues with holding the ball too long is just who he’s always been. He’s got a terrific arm and some mobility but from the first game he started to his last he was always a guy that would always look for the big play. He rarely checked the ball down even when the opportunity presented itself. When the deep shot wasn’t there he’d either take a sack or take off running. And he was often injured because of it. Hopefully NFL coaching can get through to him because he absolutely has talent but that’s a tall task. He’s a gunslinger at heart and needs to be reprogrammed. That’ll take some time. If it’s even possible at this point
He had his best season at the best time. It's why I can never feel bad about his circumstances. If Jones has this season last year, NYG lets him walk and Jones is lucky to get a backup role making $4M. Instead he has the career year at the perfect time and makes $81M guaranteed.
Thanks for the views on DeVito from his early college days. I have to say that scouting report completely jives with what we saw last week. I was wondering if he was just scared to make a mistake but it sounds like maybe not.
Hopefully the coaches can help him get through the reads quicker, including getting to check downs quicker when the first or second read are not there.
It seems to me most every QB that comes into the NFL has the physical traits to get it done. The ones that flame out never seem to get the mental part of the game. This is why I really want to hear that whatever QB we draft this year is smart and instinctive.
Give me a smart player who works hard and I like the odds we can build a functional offense around them. Accuracy and velocity are meaningless if you don't know how to find the open man.
Thanks for the views on DeVito from his early college days. I have to say that scouting report completely jives with what we saw last week. I was wondering if he was just scared to make a mistake but it sounds like maybe not.
Hopefully the coaches can help him get through the reads quicker, including getting to check downs quicker when the first or second read are not there.
It seems to me most every QB that comes into the NFL has the physical traits to get it done. The ones that flame out never seem to get the mental part of the game. This is why I really want to hear that whatever QB we draft this year is smart and instinctive.
Give me a smart player who works hard and I like the odds we can build a functional offense around them. Accuracy and velocity are meaningless if you don't know how to find the open man.
Thanks also for the first hand scouting report.
It's an interesting analytics / chess game question. If a play has a 25% chance of big play, 25% chance of sack, 20% chance of an incomplete, and rest a decent chance of an OK play but with some very-likely-bad randomness (yet to bite DeVito), is that a potentially durable winning formula? With the counter being keeping the secondary deeper which opens room for Barkley to run and short passing (which we don't yet know if DeVito can execute). You'd think BB would test that on Sunday. Or maybe last Sunday was an outlier and TD tosses 4 deep picks.
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Q: Along the lines of the line, since John Michael has gotten back from his injury and has kind of settled in again, is there anything you can point to in his game that you can see now that you weren’t really seeing earlier in the year and that kind of speaks to his development and growth as a player?
A: I’d just say there’s been steady improvement, really in every area. Are there plays that he wishes (he could have) back? Sure, everybody has those plays. Particularly the guys who play inside there, but I think it’s been good for him to have (guard Ben) Bredeson next to him as a good communicator, Pugh. Those guys are continuing to work on fundamental things that help them, but he’s got the right approach. I’d say each game he plays, he gets more experience, there’s different things that he sees that maybe he didn’t see at the college level. Different powers, different sets, different rushes, different looks that he has to communicate, but I’d say his communication has been steadily improved. He’s a smart, young player.
Looks like it ....
This is a point I've been very interested in since the Giants were out of contention.
If they start load managing Barkley, they very well might not score double digits per game.
You don't get a lot of shots at potential franchise QBs. You take one when you do. And when you are out of the playoff hunt you should be getting at least some playing time for every young guy you can.
For several years you have been "pounding the table" for interior oline upgrades and each week I see the same pressure up the middle. Besides Schmitz, is anyone of the current guard group worth keeping (except maybe as backup). I still feel coaching is an issue as none of the oline have improved in the past two years(save Thomas).
Agree that DeVito each week makes big gains. Have a funny feeling that after he sees video(film, tape?) of holding the ball too long, this will be his next improvement. Get the ball out quicker.....or throw away.
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3. I am interested in seeing how this coaching staff handles the workload of Saquon Barkley moving forward. He is on pace for the most touches per game in a season over his entire career. We all know about the contract situation, and we all know there is nothing behind him who comes even close to matching what he can produce. There is a lot of football left and Barkley has proven to be a team-first guy, but if they do not slow down his usage, we could see him suffer another breakdown. Yes, “it is part of the game” but I do wonder if there will be a point where they pull him back a bit, especially if they plan to keep him around in 2024.
This is a point I've been very interested in since the Giants were out of contention.
If they start load managing Barkley, they very well might not score double digits per game.
If DeVito keeps improving weekly, they may be able to put Breida in more frequently as he is better at picking up blitzes. That would save Barkley from stressful plays. Completing more passes(and deeper) helps reduce the Barkley touches, too.
If DeVito keeps improving weekly, they may be able to put Breida in more frequently as he is better at picking up blitzes. That would save Barkley from stressful plays. Completing more passes(and deeper) helps reduce the Barkley touches, too.
I agree. DeVito may very well be the key to Barkley being a Giant next year.
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3. I am interested in seeing how this coaching staff handles the workload of Saquon Barkley moving forward. He is on pace for the most touches per game in a season over his entire career. We all know about the contract situation, and we all know there is nothing behind him who comes even close to matching what he can produce. There is a lot of football left and Barkley has proven to be a team-first guy, but if they do not slow down his usage, we could see him suffer another breakdown. Yes, “it is part of the game” but I do wonder if there will be a point where they pull him back a bit, especially if they plan to keep him around in 2024.
This is a point I've been very interested in since the Giants were out of contention.
If they start load managing Barkley, they very well might not score double digits per game.
If DeVito keeps improving weekly, they may be able to put Breida in more frequently as he is better at picking up blitzes. That would save Barkley from stressful plays. Completing more passes(and deeper) helps reduce the Barkley touches, too.
Saquon had a bad game pass blocking, but his pass blocking has been a positive over the last 2 seasons.
I don't think the coaching staff liked him that much; wasn't he a healthy scratch for the first few games?
Not true? What is JMS upside?
Saquon had a bad game pass blocking, but his pass blocking has been a positive over the last 2 seasons.
Yes he is far better than he was in previous seasons. The ankle may very well be a reason he had issues this week. But, Breida really is more reliable and catches the ball well. I was thinking that using Breida more helps DeVito stay upright but also keeps Barkley from putting stress on that ankle by not having to stymie LBs coming up the middle. Manages his load while improving pass protection.
Not true? What is JMS upside?
BBI in 2022. KT isn't as good as adversed. He looks like a bust.
Do me a favor? Tell me what other rookies are starting at center in the NFL. I'll wait.
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JMS one of the duds. "JMS allowed 2 TFL and a sack. I’ve highlighted his movement issues recently and it appears the league has caught onto them as well. The lateral speed and adjustments are a notch too slow, and it’s lessened his power impact. He was put on ice skates a few times and it disrupted the zone running game."
Not true? What is JMS upside?
BBI in 2022. KT isn't as good as adversed. He looks like a bust.
Do me a favor? Tell me what other rookies are starting at center in the NFL. I'll wait.
The lack of patience with young players is confounding. The shift from college to the NFL is huge. Some on this board would have declared Strahan a bust after his first few years. Everyone wanted to dump Tiki and he is arguably the best Giant RB ever. Same with Toomer. It happens over and over but some fans never learn.
Yes and I am looking forward to see how he performs against Philly.
That doesn't mean there are not busts or guys who don't develop, but it's absurd to form definitive conclusions in the first and second season.
Even the guy we're all worried about - Evan Neal. He may in fact be a bust, but two things: (1) note how none of the other OLs on this team who have been as poor in the sacks department are not getting the hate/blame he got, and (2) from the time of camp, Neal never got in a rhythm this year. I wish he was out there, not Phillips.
Thanks as always for the review, even in a lost season I look forward to reading them each week.
Week 2: Center John Michael Schmitz was rock solid all game. I still see him losing too much ground on these aggressive outside zone runs but he isn’t getting beat and that is what’s most important. I also saw him make a couple instinctive moves that I only see a handful of centers make in the league. Combine that with the perfect grade in pass protection and two QB sneak successes, his grade was very good.
Week 3: Despite a couple of ugly losses to Javon Hargrave, I ended with a positive grade on rookie center John Michael Schmitz. He allowed one pressure was driven back badly on an outside zone run (again) that caused a TFL. Besides that, I thought he moved well to the second level, provided quality help in pass protection, and anchored well. From my perspective re-watching the game, there appeared to be minimal communication issues up front. I credit that to Schmitz. Execution has not been good, we know, but the assignments have seemed cleaner than I remember over the past two-three years.
Week 4: Hurt early in game.
Week 5: Did not play.
Week 6: Did not play.
Week 7: Did not play.
Week 8: John Michael Schmitz returned for the first time since Week 4. The rookie excelled in gap blocking and was a key component to a couple of the big NYG runs. He ended up on the ground often, however, and looks heavy footed when matched against pure speed, allowing a TFL and a pressure. That will be an issue for him that I do not see going away, not this season anyway. But there was some good cohesion up front, and I want to believe it was a result of him being back.
Week 9: The interior was the best trio we have seen this season. Justin Pugh moved back to his more natural position (left guard) and while he did allow 3 pressures, his game was mistake free mentally. That has been a significant cause of line problems this year and he communicated and reacted well along with center John Michael Schmitz, who allowed just one pressure. The versatile Ben Bredeson shifted over to right guard and finished with the lowest grade on the line. He allowed 1.5 sacks (one could be argued was not his fault), 1 pressure, and 1 TFL. All three were solid in the running game and I would sign up for this caliber of performance out of them for the rest of the year right now.
Week 10: Pugh essentially split his snaps between left guard and tackle. He allowed 3 pressures and a QB hit and got tossed around in the running game. Pugh and rookie center John Michael Schmitz were displaced by Dallas defenders for most of the game, lacking anchor and balance. Schmitz spends too much time on the ground and the reaction speed looks labored. There are some Evan Neal traits here (no, I am not comparing the level of play to Neal) in that his ability to recover his body control when initially lost is concerning. It will be high up on the list of skills he needs to work on.
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Guess what? Up and down. From a rookie? No way!
Week 2: Center John Michael Schmitz was rock solid all game. I still see him losing too much ground on these aggressive outside zone runs but he isn’t getting beat and that is what’s most important. I also saw him make a couple instinctive moves that I only see a handful of centers make in the league. Combine that with the perfect grade in pass protection and two QB sneak successes, his grade was very good.
Week 3: Despite a couple of ugly losses to Javon Hargrave, I ended with a positive grade on rookie center John Michael Schmitz. He allowed one pressure was driven back badly on an outside zone run (again) that caused a TFL. Besides that, I thought he moved well to the second level, provided quality help in pass protection, and anchored well. From my perspective re-watching the game, there appeared to be minimal communication issues up front. I credit that to Schmitz. Execution has not been good, we know, but the assignments have seemed cleaner than I remember over the past two-three years.
Week 4: Hurt early in game.
Week 5: Did not play.
Week 6: Did not play.
Week 7: Did not play.
Week 8: John Michael Schmitz returned for the first time since Week 4. The rookie excelled in gap blocking and was a key component to a couple of the big NYG runs. He ended up on the ground often, however, and looks heavy footed when matched against pure speed, allowing a TFL and a pressure. That will be an issue for him that I do not see going away, not this season anyway. But there was some good cohesion up front, and I want to believe it was a result of him being back.
Week 9: The interior was the best trio we have seen this season. Justin Pugh moved back to his more natural position (left guard) and while he did allow 3 pressures, his game was mistake free mentally. That has been a significant cause of line problems this year and he communicated and reacted well along with center John Michael Schmitz, who allowed just one pressure. The versatile Ben Bredeson shifted over to right guard and finished with the lowest grade on the line. He allowed 1.5 sacks (one could be argued was not his fault), 1 pressure, and 1 TFL. All three were solid in the running game and I would sign up for this caliber of performance out of them for the rest of the year right now.
Week 10: Pugh essentially split his snaps between left guard and tackle. He allowed 3 pressures and a QB hit and got tossed around in the running game. Pugh and rookie center John Michael Schmitz were displaced by Dallas defenders for most of the game, lacking anchor and balance. Schmitz spends too much time on the ground and the reaction speed looks labored. There are some Evan Neal traits here (no, I am not comparing the level of play to Neal) in that his ability to recover his body control when initially lost is concerning. It will be high up on the list of skills he needs to work on.
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Guess what? Up and down. From a rookie? No way!
I think particular types of fans, mired in this culture of losing for so long, are lashing out at any and all imperfections, as they put so much stock into every single thread of hope, if that thread frays just slightly, they want to purchase a new garment right away, after they have burned down the shop. This to me is when fandom overlaps real life temperament and short comings.
+1.
Better idea - stop cherry picking Sy's reviews. Washington's interior line is pretty decent. Sy reports on facts as he sees them game to game. Rookies have peaks and valleys. How they correct them is important.
Thomas had bad games his 1st season and see where he is now.
No different than the late '80s/early '90s. We owned the Skins then too, and the Skins owned the Eagles, and the Eagles owned us.
The Skins were 8-4 vs. Philly
The ability to win comes first and foremost with good players. Picking in the 12 to 18 range every year is a recipe for mediocre teams remaining mediocre. When picking 12 to 18 you have top get lucky to get a star, particularly at QB.
The unbelievable list of injuries this year put this team in the position for a very high draft pick, and very good odds of finding a franchise QB who could be on the team for 15 years. It's how the Spurs got David Robinson and then Tim Duncan. There are many other examples. The Cowboys got Elliott because Romo got hurt and missed most of the previous season.
It's not unreasonable to make the argument that after making the playoffs last year, getting crushed by injuries this year puts them in a position to add a very good draft onto what last year was a borderline playoff team with some solid young talent. Including getting the star QB many here want.
Thanks as always for the review, even in a lost season I look forward to reading them each week.
I certainly don't have Sy's knowledge, but some guys just have other guys' number. The guy who gave LT the most trouble was Irv Pankey of the Rams. Nice player, but he was no star - no Pro Bowls or anything. For whatever reason, he played his best against Taylor and did better than All-Pros and Pro Bowlers like Joe Jacoby, Luis Sharpe, and Jim Lachey.
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after the season. Quite frankly this team needs players period. But, they need to show some winning ability. While we were all excited (I raise my hand as one who absolutely was excited) about last year when we look back at it we might not be that far off from this year really. The one main difference is we were hit with injuries to our Oline and it just shut everything good down. That led to our QB being exposed a bit (get to that more in a different post) and even more than that exposed the fact that our entire offensive roster was built upon a very thin edge of health and system. Take the health away and the system was now more reliant on individuals playing above their heads and pulling others with them and that didn't happen.
The ability to win comes first and foremost with good players. Picking in the 12 to 18 range every year is a recipe for mediocre teams remaining mediocre. When picking 12 to 18 you have top get lucky to get a star, particularly at QB.
The unbelievable list of injuries this year put this team in the position for a very high draft pick, and very good odds of finding a franchise QB who could be on the team for 15 years. It's how the Spurs got David Robinson and then Tim Duncan. There are many other examples. The Cowboys got Elliott because Romo got hurt and missed most of the previous season.
It's not unreasonable to make the argument that after making the playoffs last year, getting crushed by injuries this year puts them in a position to add a very good draft onto what last year was a borderline playoff team with some solid young talent. Including getting the star QB many here want.
Sure. But you suggesting that coaches and players are going to go out there and tank is ludicrous. It’s simply not realistic. There are 6 freakin games to go. These guys are all fighting for their jobs. And just playing the “young guys” is already being done. They have the youngest starting 22 in the NFL, including a UDFA practice squad QB. You want them to bench the young guys that are part of the future and do what, exactly? They’ve already basically run out of bodies to throw out there
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In comment 16297936 bronxboy said:
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JMS one of the duds. "JMS allowed 2 TFL and a sack. I’ve highlighted his movement issues recently and it appears the league has caught onto them as well. The lateral speed and adjustments are a notch too slow, and it’s lessened his power impact. He was put on ice skates a few times and it disrupted the zone running game."
Not true? What is JMS upside?
BBI in 2022. KT isn't as good as adversed. He looks like a bust.
Do me a favor? Tell me what other rookies are starting at center in the NFL. I'll wait.
The lack of patience with young players is confounding. The shift from college to the NFL is huge. Some on this board would have declared Strahan a bust after his first few years. Everyone wanted to dump Tiki and he is arguably the best Giant RB ever. Same with Toomer. It happens over and over but some fans never learn.
More pressure than ever to get them out there playing at a high level from the first day. Just to take advantage of the contract.
If the QBs are gone at the top of the first, we need to get a center there.
Week 2: Center John Michael Schmitz was rock solid all game. I still see him losing too much ground on these aggressive outside zone runs but he isn’t getting beat and that is what’s most important. I also saw him make a couple instinctive moves that I only see a handful of centers make in the league. Combine that with the perfect grade in pass protection and two QB sneak successes, his grade was very good.
Week 3: Despite a couple of ugly losses to Javon Hargrave, I ended with a positive grade on rookie center John Michael Schmitz. He allowed one pressure was driven back badly on an outside zone run (again) that caused a TFL. Besides that, I thought he moved well to the second level, provided quality help in pass protection, and anchored well. From my perspective re-watching the game, there appeared to be minimal communication issues up front. I credit that to Schmitz. Execution has not been good, we know, but the assignments have seemed cleaner than I remember over the past two-three years.
Week 4: Hurt early in game.
Week 5: Did not play.
Week 6: Did not play.
Week 7: Did not play.
Week 8: John Michael Schmitz returned for the first time since Week 4. The rookie excelled in gap blocking and was a key component to a couple of the big NYG runs. He ended up on the ground often, however, and looks heavy footed when matched against pure speed, allowing a TFL and a pressure. That will be an issue for him that I do not see going away, not this season anyway. But there was some good cohesion up front, and I want to believe it was a result of him being back.
Week 9: The interior was the best trio we have seen this season. Justin Pugh moved back to his more natural position (left guard) and while he did allow 3 pressures, his game was mistake free mentally. That has been a significant cause of line problems this year and he communicated and reacted well along with center John Michael Schmitz, who allowed just one pressure. The versatile Ben Bredeson shifted over to right guard and finished with the lowest grade on the line. He allowed 1.5 sacks (one could be argued was not his fault), 1 pressure, and 1 TFL. All three were solid in the running game and I would sign up for this caliber of performance out of them for the rest of the year right now.
Week 10: Pugh essentially split his snaps between left guard and tackle. He allowed 3 pressures and a QB hit and got tossed around in the running game. Pugh and rookie center John Michael Schmitz were displaced by Dallas defenders for most of the game, lacking anchor and balance. Schmitz spends too much time on the ground and the reaction speed looks labored. There are some Evan Neal traits here (no, I am not comparing the level of play to Neal) in that his ability to recover his body control when initially lost is concerning. It will be high up on the list of skills he needs to work on.
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Guess what? Up and down. From a rookie? No way!
In all fairness, it goes both ways. I recall seeing several posts after the first few weeks (and even some during training camp) declaring that we had found our center for the next 12 years.
Let's hope. Someone needs to take the mantle from Jason Kelce, right?
We are shell shocked from bad rookies who didn't perform under the DG era and don't get better. To me, I see that he is competent center right now and he belongs in the NFL. It is nice to say that after his first 7-8 games or so. He'll get better.
The development of players like McFadden, Flott, KT and Pinnock are VERY encouraging.
I do hope to see more develop from the younger guys on the offensive side of the football …. And soon.
Also …. Slayton = MVS
but his blocking was better in this game than previous weeks."
The Giants must be near the top of the NFL in getting their RBs drilled in the backfield. There are two reasons for this: The offensive line sucks and the TE sucks. Glad to hear Bellinger showed some improvement this past Sunday because he is not going to make it in the NFL on his receiving prowess alone. He needs to block, block and then block some more for him to be of any use.
He is the best interior OL on this team...
He is the best interior OL on this team...
People are annoyed that he's not a pro bowler already.
He is the best interior OL on this team...
Nobody is suggesting he get benched (my post was sarcasm, poorly executed). Some posters like to claim there is an angry mob shouting things just so that they can claim to be the voice of reason.
He is the best interior OL on this team...
People are annoyed that he's not a pro bowler already.
Can you point to an example?
Plenty of posters have discussed JMS' play not being up to par and that he should be showing more early on.
Plenty of posters have discussed JMS' play not being up to par and that he should be showing more early on.
I believe there maybe a handful, but not plenty.
That doesn't mean there are not busts or guys who don't develop, but it's absurd to form definitive conclusions in the first and second season.
Even the guy we're all worried about - Evan Neal. He may in fact be a bust, but two things: (1) note how none of the other OLs on this team who have been as poor in the sacks department are not getting the hate/blame he got, and (2) from the time of camp, Neal never got in a rhythm this year. I wish he was out there, not Phillips.
Amen brother.
Can we actually win consistently with shine box as our QB? Or was this game an outlier against a bad team? Curious what other people are thinking. If he stops holding the ball and keeps making plays like that in the passing game... things could get interesting.
Personally I have a feeling it's an outlier, but fun to think about it... lol
That said - the most important variable to a center is between the ears. They don't all need to move like Kelce. They need to be good enough physically and very good mentally.
For several years you have been "pounding the table" for interior oline upgrades and each week I see the same pressure up the middle. Besides Schmitz, is anyone of the current guard group worth keeping (except maybe as backup). I still feel coaching is an issue as none of the oline have improved in the past two years(save Thomas).
Agree that DeVito each week makes big gains. Have a funny feeling that after he sees video(film, tape?) of holding the ball too long, this will be his next improvement. Get the ball out quicker.....or throw away.
IMO, any top picks we may have should go to the OL. Also IMO, it's possible to play well with an average QB if you have a real strong OL. The OL makes the offense go.
For several years you have been "pounding the table" for interior oline upgrades and each week I see the same pressure up the middle. Besides Schmitz, is anyone of the current guard group worth keeping (except maybe as backup). I still feel coaching is an issue as none of the oline have improved in the past two years(save Thomas).
Agree that DeVito each week makes big gains. Have a funny feeling that after he sees video(film, tape?) of holding the ball too long, this will be his next improvement. Get the ball out quicker.....or throw away.
Ezeudu is worth keeping around - I think if he gets a full offseason and in-season development opportunity - he can stick at guard.
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the most important variable to a center is between the ears...They need to be good enough physically and very good mentally.
Bart Oates and Shaun O'Hara weren't athletically gifted enough to be drafted, but Oates has three Super Bowl rings and five Pro Bowls to his credit while O'Hara has one ring and three Pro Bowl appearances.
Correct
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Have a Happy Thanksgiving but I suspect you may be on the road later this week with some meaningful games coming up.
For several years you have been "pounding the table" for interior oline upgrades and each week I see the same pressure up the middle. Besides Schmitz, is anyone of the current guard group worth keeping (except maybe as backup). I still feel coaching is an issue as none of the oline have improved in the past two years(save Thomas).
Agree that DeVito each week makes big gains. Have a funny feeling that after he sees video(film, tape?) of holding the ball too long, this will be his next improvement. Get the ball out quicker.....or throw away.
Ezeudu is worth keeping around - I think if he gets a full offseason and in-season development opportunity - he can stick at guard.
Thanks Sy. He is the one guy I think can be a good IOL.
Plenty of posters have discussed JMS' play not being up to par and that he should be showing more early on.
So just to be clear. This is a sentiment you made up or exaggerated?
This simple fact seems to be ignored by NYG or at least something they fail to reach time and time again. If you want to sustain winning in the NFL you absolutely have to be great at something.
The Giants could be great on defense if they played their cards right this off-season. As is it's OK. but the pieces in place are big time talents and not easy to find. They just need to add some good players at edge and DL. Far too often I think the Giants have subscribed to the belief that they need to spread the wealth around and patch a hole rather than build a unit into an elite strength.
Show some patience for guys that deserve it. And JMS does and we need him to develop into a plus player to handle some difficult NFCE defensive lineman.
This site has some good fans/posters with decent football acumen. But when it comes to what is going on with the Offensive Line play...not so much.
Crazy game. Despite having committed five (and nearly six) turnovers, the Commanders still had a chance to win the game at the end. And a Giants win wasn't ensured until they committed their sixth turnover, Howell's pick six.
Interior offensive line is not a position where average fans can develop an opinion. You don't see what's going on, so people co-opt opinions.
Or, QB= sacked means OL= bad. Take your pick.
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Thanks for another hijacking christian. No - I read threads and can tell what people are saying based on what they post. I don't save posts for future embarrassing takedowns like you guys do.
Plenty of posters have discussed JMS' play not being up to par and that he should be showing more early on.
So just to be clear. This is a sentiment you made up or exaggerated?
Not to hijack this thread but I love how people whine that people follow GoTerps around like he's some victim of an unruly mob, but for crissakes you and other posters follow Ryan like a bunch of twats. Every time he posts something, I can count on you and 3 or 4 others to start chirping and turning every frickin thread into your little personal pissing match. It's really tiresome.
If the QBs are gone at the top of the first, we need to get a center there.
I see where you're coming from, but I really think we need to use our first round pick on a kicker.
To be honest - I don't get surprised much anymore. Things always happen that I not expect - but that happens every year in every sport. That is part of the draw to sports when it comes to entertainment - you never know what will happen.
Also why the betting industry is so big. And most lose money to it.
I think everyone who participates in this community has a choice on what they post and what they read.
I try to ask earnest questions and keep my responses directly related to the topic being discussed.
Ryan gives as much as he takes on this site. My guess on what you're observing is he feels strongly about a handful of topics and I feel strongly about the opposing position.
Only speaking for myself, but if I were to post a hyperbolic, poorly reasoned, or incorrect position -- I'd have no problem being challenged.
That seems fair, no?
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In comment 16297915 jvm52106 said:
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after the season. Quite frankly this team needs players period. But, they need to show some winning ability. While we were all excited (I raise my hand as one who absolutely was excited) about last year when we look back at it we might not be that far off from this year really. The one main difference is we were hit with injuries to our Oline and it just shut everything good down. That led to our QB being exposed a bit (get to that more in a different post) and even more than that exposed the fact that our entire offensive roster was built upon a very thin edge of health and system. Take the health away and the system was now more reliant on individuals playing above their heads and pulling others with them and that didn't happen.
The ability to win comes first and foremost with good players. Picking in the 12 to 18 range every year is a recipe for mediocre teams remaining mediocre. When picking 12 to 18 you have top get lucky to get a star, particularly at QB.
The unbelievable list of injuries this year put this team in the position for a very high draft pick, and very good odds of finding a franchise QB who could be on the team for 15 years. It's how the Spurs got David Robinson and then Tim Duncan. There are many other examples. The Cowboys got Elliott because Romo got hurt and missed most of the previous season.
It's not unreasonable to make the argument that after making the playoffs last year, getting crushed by injuries this year puts them in a position to add a very good draft onto what last year was a borderline playoff team with some solid young talent. Including getting the star QB many here want.
Sure. But you suggesting that coaches and players are going to go out there and tank is ludicrous. It’s simply not realistic. There are 6 freakin games to go. These guys are all fighting for their jobs. And just playing the “young guys” is already being done. They have the youngest starting 22 in the NFL, including a UDFA practice squad QB. You want them to bench the young guys that are part of the future and do what, exactly? They’ve already basically run out of bodies to throw out there
I have not in any post advocated for the players and coaches to tank. I have said losing games and getting the 2 or 3 pick would be fantastic for this team. I never said I wanted or expected them to not play their best.
At the same time, getting younger guys game experience is not the same as tanking. It is something smart teams do when the playoffs are out of reach. Sadly, over the last 10 years, the Giants have refused to do it because 'it wouldn't be good' for the league. Sorry, but the Giants first responsibility is to the Giants.
It's amazing how quickly a QB can fizzle out and someone like DeVito is now starting games for the Giants. DeVito is getting an opportunity some other guys who are better prospects won't.
It's amazing how quickly a QB can fizzle out and someone like DeVito is now starting games for the Giants. DeVito is getting an opportunity some other guys who are better prospects won't.
FWIW, I think that being able to quickly read the defense and the field is the most important aspect of being a NFL QB. Next step up is being accurate and the next step up a level is having a rocket arm.
It is possible DeVito has that ability to read, although he missed some on Sunday. Let's see how he does this week. He got sacked 9xs because he took too long with the ball in his hands either not trusting his reads or not making the read(hopefully the former). If he takes the next step in getting it out quickly they may have soemthing because he certainly looks to have an accurate arm with some juice.
The 6 turnovers deserve a positive asterisk. Sometimes TOs are lucky bounces or gifts from opposing players. But every one of our TOs was truly forced with disruptive play from the D.
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QB is such a fascinating position to me. It's like a volatile stock. If DeVito puts together a few good games (not saying he will), he'd have a higher stock price than guys like Trey Lance, Will Grier, Matt Coral and Malik Willis - all much better prospects within the last 2 years.
It's amazing how quickly a QB can fizzle out and someone like DeVito is now starting games for the Giants. DeVito is getting an opportunity some other guys who are better prospects won't.
FWIW, I think that being able to quickly read the defense and the field is the most important aspect of being a NFL QB. Next step up is being accurate and the next step up a level is having a rocket arm.
It is possible DeVito has that ability to read, although he missed some on Sunday. Let's see how he does this week. He got sacked 9xs because he took too long with the ball in his hands either not trusting his reads or not making the read(hopefully the former). If he takes the next step in getting it out quickly they may have soemthing because he certainly looks to have an accurate arm with some juice.
I’m a Syracuse fan and seen all of DeVitos games at ‘Cuse. The issues with holding the ball too long is just who he’s always been. He’s got a terrific arm and some mobility but from the first game he started to his last he was always a guy that would always look for the big play. He rarely checked the ball down even when the opportunity presented itself. When the deep shot wasn’t there he’d either take a sack or take off running. And he was often injured because of it. Hopefully NFL coaching can get through to him because he absolutely has talent but that’s a tall task. He’s a gunslinger at heart and needs to be reprogrammed. That’ll take some time. If it’s even possible at this point
I’m a Syracuse fan and seen all of DeVitos games at ‘Cuse. The issues with holding the ball too long is just who he’s always been. He’s got a terrific arm and some mobility but from the first game he started to his last he was always a guy that would always look for the big play. He rarely checked the ball down even when the opportunity presented itself. When the deep shot wasn’t there he’d either take a sack or take off running. And he was often injured because of it. Hopefully NFL coaching can get through to him because he absolutely has talent but that’s a tall task. He’s a gunslinger at heart and needs to be reprogrammed. That’ll take some time. If it’s even possible at this point
Thanks for the scouting report..
Hopefully the coaches can help him get through the reads quicker, including getting to check downs quicker when the first or second read are not there.
It seems to me most every QB that comes into the NFL has the physical traits to get it done. The ones that flame out never seem to get the mental part of the game. This is why I really want to hear that whatever QB we draft this year is smart and instinctive.
Give me a smart player who works hard and I like the odds we can build a functional offense around them. Accuracy and velocity are meaningless if you don't know how to find the open man.
Hopefully the coaches can help him get through the reads quicker, including getting to check downs quicker when the first or second read are not there.
It seems to me most every QB that comes into the NFL has the physical traits to get it done. The ones that flame out never seem to get the mental part of the game. This is why I really want to hear that whatever QB we draft this year is smart and instinctive.
Give me a smart player who works hard and I like the odds we can build a functional offense around them. Accuracy and velocity are meaningless if you don't know how to find the open man.
Thanks also for the first hand scouting report.
It's an interesting analytics / chess game question. If a play has a 25% chance of big play, 25% chance of sack, 20% chance of an incomplete, and rest a decent chance of an OK play but with some very-likely-bad randomness (yet to bite DeVito), is that a potentially durable winning formula? With the counter being keeping the secondary deeper which opens room for Barkley to run and short passing (which we don't yet know if DeVito can execute). You'd think BB would test that on Sunday. Or maybe last Sunday was an outlier and TD tosses 4 deep picks.