I have someone close to me that has an extremely good track record of identifying NFL QBs to the point where I think they could scout professionally. They LOVE DeVito and don't think him turning into a legit NFL starter is out of the question.
In addition to what Sy says about him, his biggest plus with DeVito is that the team seems to rally behind him and play for him.
Most of these 3rd qb/project type guys who were transfers in college or played with lesser competition come in and you can immediately see the lack of confidence, fear or hesitation in their play. DeVito hasn't shown even a glimpse of that.
Maybe Dabes should of had him throw a couple of passes against the Jets?
To my untrained eye, needs to be weighed in the Bobby Johnson evaluation. They are getting better.
Given the discussion around X and his contract, worth reading Sy’s praise of his performance. I didn’t even see the trickery X used to lure the QB into throwing an INT, so thanks for educating me.
Finally, A’Shawn’s steady performance sure suggests he should be one of the vets resigned this offseason.
One very small, tiny quibble. I can't see Saquon Barkley adorned with one of your Dud awards. It seems like every time he rushed up the middle or to his left he was smashed at or behind the LOS. IMO, Justin Pugh is much more deserving.
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
I have someone close to me that has an extremely good track record of identifying NFL QBs to the point where I think they could scout professionally. They LOVE DeVito and don't think him turning into a legit NFL starter is out of the question.
In addition to what Sy says about him, his biggest plus with DeVito is that the team seems to rally behind him and play for him.
DeVito appears to me to be the sort of player Parcells would back. The "Jersey Guy" moxie and not inconsiderable tools are tantalizing. If he can continue to progress in processing and reading Defenses, he looks like a keeper.
RE: The pendulum on BBI has swung way too negative
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
RE: Sy’s comment about the OL improving, which was noticeable
To my untrained eye, needs to be weighed in the Bobby Johnson evaluation. They are getting better.
Given the discussion around X and his contract, worth reading Sy’s praise of his performance. I didn’t even see the trickery X used to lure the QB into throwing an INT, so thanks for educating me.
Finally, A’Shawn’s steady performance sure suggests he should be one of the vets resigned this offseason.
Yep. Every time the unit starts to gel there is a new regime to reset everything.
One very small, tiny quibble. I can't see Saquon Barkley adorned with one of your Dud awards. It seems like every time he rushed up the middle or to his left he was smashed at or behind the LOS. IMO, Justin Pugh is much more deserving.
has coincided with Evan Neal missing time. It is also around the same time frame that Andrew Thomas returned to the field.
Does the improvement have more to do with Neal not being there (was he bad enough to bring down the whole unit?) or is it more do to with Thomas returning?
I don't sound so stupid saying Jones may be the third best QB on his own team?
I love what DeVito is doing relative to what to expect from a third string QB. I'm rooting for him all the way. But, let's keep it in perspective. He benefitted from the Giants D producing 9 turnovers in the two games. And, despite them, the Giants nearly got tied by the Patriots (a missed easy FG) and were one Commanders' drive away from losing. It's not like the offense is running away with the games. Devito is throwing some nice balls and not turning the ball over. But, he's holding the ball way too long and taking a lot of sacks. Those sacks would show up a lot more if the Giants D wasn't producing the turnovers.
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Surely disconcerting about Daniel Jones lack of TD passes. It is what it is, and it ain't pretty. But it's also disconcerting that over his career Daniel Jones never had the opportunity to play with a bona-fide star like Tyreek Hill, CeeDee Lamb, A.J. Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, Davonte Smith, Travis Kelce or Jordan Jefferson, et. al. In the end, Daniel Jones may be a mediocrity (or worse), but he never threw to top shelf talent and he never stood behind an offensive line worthy of NFL status.
The guy scores one TD that was assisted by one of the three turnovers the 2-win pats handed us in a game they were arguably hoping to lose. Sorry, the hype just isn't adding up.
RE: RE: RE: The pendulum on BBI has swung way too negative
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Surely disconcerting about Daniel Jones lack of TD passes. It is what it is, and it ain't pretty. But it's also disconcerting that over his career Daniel Jones never had the opportunity to play with a bona-fide star like Tyreek Hill, CeeDee Lamb, A.J. Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, Davonte Smith, Travis Kelce or Jordan Jefferson, et. al. In the end, Daniel Jones may be a mediocrity (or worse), but he never threw to top shelf talent and he never stood behind an offensive line worthy of NFL status.
Neither has Cj Stroud. Or Jordan Love. Or Lamar Jackson.
DeVito is a great story. If he can really be the backup of the future
I don't sound so stupid saying Jones may be the third best QB on his own team?
The fact that it’s even a discussion highlights the overpay on Jones. I understand all the dynamics of last offseason but man….
What really sucks is drafting a qb this year won’t fully benefit the salary cap having a qb on a rookie deal cause we’ll have a backup (Jones) making 40mm+
Oh well
RE: RE: RE: The pendulum on BBI has swung way too negative
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Surely disconcerting about Daniel Jones lack of TD passes. It is what it is, and it ain't pretty. But it's also disconcerting that over his career Daniel Jones never had the opportunity to play with a bona-fide star like Tyreek Hill, CeeDee Lamb, A.J. Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, Davonte Smith, Travis Kelce or Jordan Jefferson, et. al. In the end, Daniel Jones may be a mediocrity (or worse), but he never threw to top shelf talent and he never stood behind an offensive line worthy of NFL status.
JFC
He averages 1 TD pass a game over 62 game period. That is 1970s stats. Any other mediocre starter over a decent stretch of time you can google will typically average at least 1.5 TD pass a game.
Daniel Jones is an all-time great for supporters making excuses.
The guy scores one TD that was assisted by one of the three turnovers the 2-win pats handed us in a game they were arguably hoping to lose. Sorry, the hype just isn't adding up.
Yep. I like DeVito, as I am a Syracuse fan and watched much of his play over the years. He has exceeded expectations for an UDFA 3rd string QB, but the hype has gotten out of control. He scored 1 TD against one of the worst teams in football, in which they started inside the opponent's 30 yard line. The hope is he can be a cheap, competent backup QB going forward. Anyone expecting more than that is delusional.
I know Barkley is a good player and all but I am ready for him to move on to a different team so we can restart the offense.
If you really break it down.
QB - we need a new one. It's not about Jones anymore. I dont care if he can, cant, we failed him, he failed us..... It's over. Move on. Let him backup next year. Teach the new QB the Giant way for all I care.
WR - We need a true number 1 WR for whoever the new QB is. I know Bryce Young has been awful - but you cant draft a QB and give him nothing to work with. And for the people say we dont know what we have at WR. yes we do. They're average to below average WRs who make a play once every 3-4 games. Its not good enough.
TE - Always hurt. Already over 30. Move on.
OL - we need some guards. We need to hope that Neal is finally healthy for a whole offseason and can quickly become a serviceable tackle. And for christ sakes get a good OL coach.
So many pieces missing. Get the QB. Whether its with the first round pick or trading back into the first. Find a WR. And lets get back to modern day football.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
Go re-read the review on Devito's game. This post is not at all aligned with what was written. It was a glowing review for a kid in a game which the results were one TD on a short field created by the defense, sub 200 yards passing, where we scored tied for the lowest point output scored against the Pats all year. It was an ugly ugly win against a terrible team where the defense and specials played well but not nearly enough done on the offensive side.
I can't reconcile my interpretation of the game with Sy's glowing review.
I’m not sure you entirely got my point. Daniel Jones is what he is for better or worse.
But ask yourself: How well did Eli Manning perform toward the end of his career with a non-existent O-line and no top-shelf wide receiver.
In the end, it is a lot easier for fans to just piss on Daniel Jones than to fully catalogue the utter stench of the franchise he has been a part of since 2019.
Saying a QB played the position fundamentally well FOR AN UNDRAFTED ROOKIE does not mean Sy is hyping him as a starter in the NFL. In fact, Sy goes onto talk about the need to see if DeVito can be an adequate back-up.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
Go re-read the review on Devito's game. This post is not at all aligned with what was written. It was a glowing review for a kid in a game which the results were one TD on a short field created by the defense, sub 200 yards passing, where we scored tied for the lowest point output scored against the Pats all year. It was an ugly ugly win against a terrible team where the defense and specials played well but not nearly enough done on the offensive side.
I can't reconcile my interpretation of the game with Sy's glowing review.
How about a glowing review for an UNDRAFTED ROOKIE on a bad team with a bad offense?
Point to history where this has ever happened.
I also note multiple times DeVito is trying out for a backup job. Hardly over the top.
But ask yourself: How well did Eli Manning perform toward the end of his career with a non-existent O-line and no top-shelf wide receiver.
In the end, it is a lot easier for fans to just piss on Daniel Jones than to fully catalogue the utter stench of the franchise he has been a part of since 2019.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
Go re-read the review on Devito's game. This post is not at all aligned with what was written. It was a glowing review for a kid in a game which the results were one TD on a short field created by the defense, sub 200 yards passing, where we scored tied for the lowest point output scored against the Pats all year. It was an ugly ugly win against a terrible team where the defense and specials played well but not nearly enough done on the offensive side.
I can't reconcile my interpretation of the game with Sy's glowing review.
How about a glowing review for an UNDRAFTED ROOKIE on a bad team with a bad offense?
Point to history where this has ever happened.
I also note multiple times DeVito is trying out for a backup job. Hardly over the top.
Lol...DeVito's total QBR is 7.4. Time to size him up for the Yellow Jacket.
I’m not sure you entirely got my point. Daniel Jones is what he is for better or worse.
But ask yourself: How well did Eli Manning perform toward the end of his career with a non-existent O-line and no top-shelf wide receiver.
In the end, it is a lot easier for fans to just piss on Daniel Jones than to fully catalogue the utter stench of the franchise he has been a part of since 2019.
You don't need to have a "top-shelf" wide receiver to be successful in the NFL as a quarterback. An offensive line will be a tremendous help.
Piss on Daniel Jones? It's been five years. An undrafted rookie FA has seven TDs to Daniel's two in half the snaps.
Jones has thrown 38 TDs in four years. Do the math.
I will not speak about Jones until the offseason. Period.
I am breaking down games and performances. Jones is not playing anymore again - he isn't even a thought. His memory is a fart in the wind until the offseason.
One thing I have noticed these past 2-3 years - and it is the world we live in since 2020 - is that everyone has their flag planted into the ground so deep - that ANY statement that MIGHT disagree with their notion is an immediate threat and causes some to actually appear offended.
Incredibly weird times.
RE: Brock Purdy was Mr. Irrelevant just last draft
But ask yourself: How well did Eli Manning perform toward the end of his career with a non-existent O-line and no top-shelf wide receiver.
In the end, it is a lot easier for fans to just piss on Daniel Jones than to fully catalogue the utter stench of the franchise he has been a part of since 2019.
Eli had Odell.
OBJ missed almost all of 2017, was traded toward the end of 2018 and wasn’t there at all in 2019. Eli’s record wasn’t too pretty over this period.
Is an undrafted third string QB who has won two games. He plays with some ‘juice’ - competitive, confident, and he is displaying some talent - accurate throws, no hesitation, good enough arm, anticipation. Lots to like in an UNDRAFTED THIRD STRING QB.
No one’s nominating him for the HOF. He is deserving of some praise and recognition - he’s doing well and PROGRESSING. Lots to work on, everyone can see the issues; but it’s a good story and more than anyone could have expected. Let’s enjoy this, it’s a bright spot in what has been a bleak season. His performance has nothing to do with what anyone thinks about Daniel Jones; I really wish people would just assess Tommy Touchdown for what they see and not relative to their opinions of DJ.
I agree. It's all over the place. We've got Jones supporters that want to discredit DeVito (the QBR comment above). Then you've got Jones critics who want to prop up anyone as someone better than Jones (Matt Barkley implication above). You've got people talking up Fields after a 12-9 win in Minnesota when Jones seemingly doesn't get credit for the playoff win. And then just the non stop excuses for Jones on the other side (just get him an OL). Well, he's making $40M per year.
OBJ missed almost all of 2017, was traded toward the end of 2018 and wasn’t there at all in 2019. Eli’s record wasn’t too pretty over this period.
Odell was traded in the offseason. The Giants were 5-11 in 2018 despite having a dynamic WR who had 1000 yards in only 12 games. Why was that? The QB couldn’t throw touchdowns. Odell was the best WR in the NFL from 2014-2016 and the Giants had one winning record. They were one of the worst scoring teams in the league in 2016 despite having a WR go for 1300 yards and 10 tds. Why? Because they were no longer getting elite QB play.
he did not draft DeVito. Passed on him all 7 rounds. For those who believe DeVito is a better QB than Jones, why would you want Schoen sticking around to evaluate QBs this offseason when the Giants determine 1. whether they draft their next starting QB and 2. who that QB will be?
RE: It seems like the improved play and stabilization of the OL
has coincided with Evan Neal missing time. It is also around the same time frame that Andrew Thomas returned to the field.
Does the improvement have more to do with Neal not being there (was he bad enough to bring down the whole unit?) or is it more do to with Thomas returning?
The team gave up Nine Sacks against Wash and Six against the Pats... this can hardly be called improvement,
C'mon Eric, yes there are discernible differences in what DeVito and Jones bring to the game. For one, and to me most important, DeVito is not much of a runner, is slow to make the decision to run, and is just slow. Injuries may impact that part of Jones' game going forward but DeVito shows little ability to extend plays, run for a crucial first down, or make defenses prepare for QB runs. I agree that he could continue to develop into a solid backup but I just don't see him as an NFL starter. I was at the game Sunday and Tommy had open receivers right in front of him that he passed up and wound up taking sacks. I hope he gets the chance to play the rest of the games and continue to improve but he's not the answer. DeVito also has had the benefit of improved O-line play of late without free runners in his face at the snap. But fwiw, if Schoen has a chance to draft a QB that could be the answer, I think he'll take it.
Why are people so goddamn sensitive about a garden variety QB
To my untrained eye, needs to be weighed in the Bobby Johnson evaluation. They are getting better.
Given the discussion around X and his contract, worth reading Sy’s praise of his performance. I didn’t even see the trickery X used to lure the QB into throwing an INT, so thanks for educating me.
Finally, A’Shawn’s steady performance sure suggests he should be one of the vets resigned this offseason.
Yep. Every time the unit starts to gel there is a new regime to reset everything.
They O lines has gotten better, because, with the exception of Neal, they have not had injuries that forced changes since Ezeudu went out.
Daboll needs to treat the pre-season as less of a joke next year
The offensive line cannot be considered a strength, but like the team overall, it has become a reliable-at-times unit. Andrew Thomas being on the field means a ton. It cannot be understated. But watching them on tape, the unit simply looks cleaner. The first half of the season was full of defenders getting free runs to the backfield. We had blockers running into each other. And we had whiff after whiff. It is clear NYG will need to add a body or two in the offseason, that fact will not change. But can any of these guys be brought back to provide depth? Possibly even a starter spot? Chemistry means a lot and we cannot just assume they can fill these spots with a rookie or journeyman free agent. I do not believe spending big will be in their budget plans
You can't just play your starters for a quarter and expect them to be game ready week 1. Hopefully the coaching staff takes that as a lesson learned for next year. I don't really give a crap about the injury angle either, Thomas got hurt in literally the first quarter of the first game. You can make an argument he wasn't game ready because of lack of playing in the preaseason.
RE: Schoen gave Jones a $40 million a year contract
he did not draft DeVito. Passed on him all 7 rounds. For those who believe DeVito is a better QB than Jones, why would you want Schoen sticking around to evaluate QBs this offseason when the Giants determine 1. whether they draft their next starting QB and 2. who that QB will be?
That's actually a very fair question that I have posed many times the last several weeks - based on Schoen's financial commitment to Jones, why should we trust him to find a better solution to Jones?
I'll say this. I trust Daboll with QBs infinitely more than Schoen.
RE: RE: Schoen gave Jones a $40 million a year contract
he did not draft DeVito. Passed on him all 7 rounds. For those who believe DeVito is a better QB than Jones, why would you want Schoen sticking around to evaluate QBs this offseason when the Giants determine 1. whether they draft their next starting QB and 2. who that QB will be?
That's actually a very fair question that I have posed many times the last several weeks - based on Schoen's financial commitment to Jones, why should we trust him to find a better solution to Jones?
I'll say this. I trust Daboll with QBs infinitely more than Schoen.
I thought it was Mara's meddling that was at fault? You guys need to write up a QRG or something for this stuff for the rest of us.
Given the options and the situation, Schoen didn't commit a terrible sin by resigning Jones.
1) we had just made the PO's and DJ looked decent last year. It was not inconceivable to think he would improve with better talent around him and another year in the system
2) there weren't really awesome options to replace DJ
3) there rightly so was a "perception" factor - getting rid of your QB the year after he plays decently and wins a PO game is bad optics
4) the contract is essentially a 2 year deal; again, not exactly a long term anchor
in hindsight it looks bad but all things considered I don't think it disqualifies him to pick the next QB.
Until they fix the OL. I know Sy says it’s getting better and I trust his expertise, but better is not good or even acceptable. What I see is a line that cannot reliably block for the run or the pass. Thomas is very good when healthy. The rest are average to below average at this point with only the center being a rookie with growth potential. Jones is an injury risk. DeVito is one hit away from joining Jones and Taylor on the injured list.
C'mon Eric, yes there are discernible differences in what DeVito and Jones bring to the game. For one, and to me most important, DeVito is not much of a runner, is slow to make the decision to run, and is just slow. Injuries may impact that part of Jones' game going forward but DeVito shows little ability to extend plays, run for a crucial first down, or make defenses prepare for QB runs. I agree that he could continue to develop into a solid backup but I just don't see him as an NFL starter. I was at the game Sunday and Tommy had open receivers right in front of him that he passed up and wound up taking sacks. I hope he gets the chance to play the rest of the games and continue to improve but he's not the answer. DeVito also has had the benefit of improved O-line play of late without free runners in his face at the snap. But fwiw, if Schoen has a chance to draft a QB that could be the answer, I think he'll take it.
Never claimed DeVito will be a starter.
I'm claiming that Daniel Jones isn't.
I think I've been clear on this.
The longer the organization sticks with Jones, the longer we'll be a third-place team in the NFC East.
You are spot on re DeVito. It is not hype, but as you say, it is not nothing either. DeVito has progressed at an astonishing rate given that he was essentially unplayable in the Jets game as a passer just a month ago. He will probably hit a wall at some point, but these past two games against well respected defensive head coaches have been some of the best quarterback play we have seen this year. The connection he seems to have developed with Hyatt is not only a great step forward, but DeVito is the only quarterback on this roster who appears to have fully revealed the absolute treasure we really have in Hyatt. What a steal of a draft choice!
And it proves the point that Daboll is capable of coaching up any quarterback to their ceiling - a much needed reaffirmation of the astonishing results he got last year from DJ until the league figured out how to defend against the "remedial scheme".
As you mention, the next month will determine whether DeVito can be the third string backup next year behind whomever they draft in April and a lame duck DJ running out the final year of his scholarship program. I am optimistic that DeVito will meet that threshold and be the third guy in the quarterback room. I originally thought DeVito's ceiling was Jake Fromm. But after the last several games, he has me now thinking that his ceiling might be more like Taylor Heinicke? Perhaps Case Keenum? Any of which would be a much needed pleasant surprise in this season of despair.
Thanks again for your many contributions to this site. It is the best of BBI and very much appreciated!
Daboll is the developer and builds game plans to fit the QB's skills. Josh Allen doesn't mention Brandon Beane for his success. But he has mentioned Brian Daboll.
Do some of you guys really think DeVito would have won 10 games last year, including an away playoff game?
Do you really think DeVito would have performed even marginally better than Jones given the unprecedentedly terrible O-line play in the first part of this year? I know the mantra that good qbs can compensate for poor O-lines. Go rewatch the games.
I ain't no Jones apologist. I'd like to think I'm a realist and I really hope Giants identify and draft a quarterback with the potential to be the One, if for no other reason than there's too much risk in Jones' injury history But the notion that there's no difference between DeVito and Jones is just one other end of the Daniel Jones Derangement Syndrome.
Given the options and the situation, Schoen didn't commit a terrible sin by resigning Jones.
1) we had just made the PO's and DJ looked decent last year. It was not inconceivable to think he would improve with better talent around him and another year in the system
2) there weren't really awesome options to replace DJ
3) there rightly so was a "perception" factor - getting rid of your QB the year after he plays decently and wins a PO game is bad optics
4) the contract is essentially a 2 year deal; again, not exactly a long term anchor
in hindsight it looks bad but all things considered I don't think it disqualifies him to pick the next QB.
I get the idea to keep Jones after 2022. But Jones's output wasn't prolific. It was solid and he should be recognized for making plays, especially with his legs.
But the much better solution was the FT or TT. Make Jones prove that 2022 wasn't a fluke or an outlier.
Daboll is the developer and builds game plans to fit the QB's skills. Josh Allen doesn't mention Brandon Beane for his success. But he has mentioned Brian Daboll.
Yes, but it sounds like the suggestion is Schoen is going to pick a QB and Daboll just has to cook the meal. I have no reason to believe that's the dynamic. Feels foolish to think Daboll won't have a significant say on this.
I used the word "decent" with purpose... I never said prolific.
and yes, FT or TT would have been better... though these used one of them on SB so presumably that factored into the thinking. Honestly, my guess is they truly thought with better talent and another year in the system, DJ would have improved to the point where his contract was reasonable.
It turns out they were wrong and now we need to get out from under it. But i understand the thinking going into the contract negotiations.
RE: RE: RE: The pendulum on BBI has swung way too negative
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Surely disconcerting about Daniel Jones lack of TD passes. It is what it is, and it ain't pretty. But it's also disconcerting that over his career Daniel Jones never had the opportunity to play with a bona-fide star like Tyreek Hill, CeeDee Lamb, A.J. Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, Davonte Smith, Travis Kelce or Jordan Jefferson, et. al. In the end, Daniel Jones may be a mediocrity (or worse), but he never threw to top shelf talent and he never stood behind an offensive line worthy of NFL status.
He's simultaneously played behind the worst OL + the worst group of skill players in the league. Some QBs will thrive with good OL/bad skill or bad OL/good skill, but you aren't doing jack shit in the NFL with bad OL/bad skill.
Saying a QB played the position fundamentally well FOR AN UNDRAFTED ROOKIE does not mean Sy is hyping him as a starter in the NFL. In fact, Sy goes onto talk about the need to see if DeVito can be an adequate back-up.
Except he didn't make that caveat about his being graded on a scale (for a rookie). The only reference came afterwards in his saying that BD is showing things no other undrafted rookie has shown.
RE: RE: RE: Not sure why we're separating the two.
Yes, but it sounds like the suggestion is Schoen is going to pick a QB and Daboll just has to cook the meal. I have no reason to believe that's the dynamic. Feels foolish to think Daboll won't have a significant say on this.
I am not suggesting that. I'm sure Daboll will be part of the process. But I doubt he would have any final say.
Let's game out a hypothetical. If Schoen and Mara really like Maye because of his physical metrics and personality to fit NY (which we know is important to Mara, and Schoen mentioned the NY factor yesterday), but Daboll really likes Daniels, do you think Daboll gets Daniels?
QB play has on an offensive line. When there is a downfield threat, DE's and LB's can't just pin their ears back to get to the QB.
Regardless, the next few games will be the real test for Devito's staying power in the league. If he looks competent, he could be a solid backup in the NFL for a long time. If he looks awful, he'll go back to a 3rd stringer/fringe 2nd stringer.
As to Jones, how many of Devito's sacks do you think would have been fumbles with Jones? Probably a lot of them.
QB play has on an offensive line. When there is a downfield threat, DE's and LB's can't just pin their ears back to get to the QB.
Regardless, the next few games will be the real test for Devito's staying power in the league. If he looks competent, he could be a solid backup in the NFL for a long time. If he looks awful, he'll go back to a 3rd stringer/fringe 2nd stringer.
As to Jones, how many of Devito's sacks do you think would have been fumbles with Jones? Probably a lot of them.
Sorry, that should say "the effect good QB play has on an offensive line." Stupid iPhone
the problem here is anything positive written about other quarterbacks on the roster will be taken as underhanded insult to Daniel.
We're in a weird area with a group of Giants fans.
There is an absolute cult-like following that has arisen around Daniel Jones on this site. If you praise anyone not named Daniel Jones, no matter how slightly, they flood out of the woodwork and call you a hater and a bad fan.
If Jones had a microphone Infront of him and said "DeVito is a usurper and must be dealt with" I would actually worry that some on this board would be heading to Tommy's house almost immediately.
the problem here is anything positive written about other quarterbacks on the roster will be taken as underhanded insult to Daniel.
We're in a weird area with a group of Giants fans.
LOL, except it is being stated as an insult to Jones. You literally said so your self: "What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man."
Personally, I don't care if Jones is insulted. I know he's not the answer. The difference though is that I don't feel the need to turn this into a debate of Jones vs Taylor or Devito. I don't see it as apples to apples though some will insist that it is. But the bottom line is the guy (Jones) has had YEARS to prove that he is the guy and has not shown nearly enough.
Re: “It was a glowing review for a kid in a game which the results were one TD on a short field created by the defense, sub 200 yards passing, where we scored tied for the lowest point output scored against the Pats all year.“
Last year, by all accounts the best year of Jones career, Jones had 11 games sub -200 yds . He had 7 games of 1 TD and and an additional 6 games with O TDs.
He had 7 games with both sub 200 yds and 0-1 TDs.
Ill just point out this does not include an additional 4 games where he threw for 200-228 yds and 0-1 TDs.
And I cant go through every game but there was a game like Washington on SNF where Jones put up 160 yds 35 rush 0 TDs and the Giants won 20-12 with just 13 pts of offense on a defense TD by Thibodeaux and the D got a second TO.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
This...and I don't think its outrageous to say Jones is the 3rd best QB on this roster. But the fact that its debatable shows you how outrageous that contract is/.
Yes, but it sounds like the suggestion is Schoen is going to pick a QB and Daboll just has to cook the meal. I have no reason to believe that's the dynamic. Feels foolish to think Daboll won't have a significant say on this.
I am not suggesting that. I'm sure Daboll will be part of the process. But I doubt he would have any final say.
Let's game out a hypothetical. If Schoen and Mara really like Maye because of his physical metrics and personality to fit NY (which we know is important to Mara, and Schoen mentioned the NY factor yesterday), but Daboll really likes Daniels, do you think Daboll gets Daniels?
I don't.
There is no effing way on Earth that Jones gets that contract if Daboll doesn't want him to get it - does not feel he will improve. bw you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Josh Allen became Josh Allen in part because of Daboll, as you said, not because of Beane. Jones played better last year because of Daboll(and Tierney). If Daboll said to Schoen that DJ is mediocre and not worth 5 years $160 mill, Jones isn't getting that contract. There is no ay Schoen does that to Daboll.
You may be correct that if the Giants go QB and can get either of Maye or Daniels they go Maye. But I absolutely guarantee you that if Daboll tells Mara and Schoen that Daniels is the better QB andshows/explains why he is, Daniels will be the pick. If it is a "tie" (ability and developmentally) between the two and Schoen and Mara would rather Maye, Daboll will go with it because Schoen will show Daboll why Maye is the better choice for NYC area.
This isn't George Young telling Bill Parcells what players he will get anymore. In this case, the GM and HC are tied together and will work through their difference.
IMHO John Mara may be a tie breaker on this choice more than an instigator.
I will be shocked if DeVito doesn't look like a train wreck against the Eagles.
The funny thing was - remember how Webb looked against them last year? The Eagles needed to win that game too.
This was exactly my thought as well. DeVito is a no lose call option at this point. If he is bad, who cares. Losses are good for draft position. But if he is good, that will not only give us a solid third guy in the quarterback room next year, but it will reaffirm Daboll's capacity to elevate quarterback talent. Which will be confidence inspiring when the much anticipated successor arrives next spring...
to assume Daboll will want a QB and Schoen/Mara will simply get someone else. This is not some process where each one walks in on draft morning and votes. Schoen and Daboll will speak about it a lot, with Daboll stressing what traits he needs most in a QB (which will also line up with the guy he likes). That will have a ton of influence over who Schoen will want as well.
After last year I was under the same misconception about Jones that I think Schoen and Daboll were - they simplified the offense enough and added enough designed runs that they could make Jones a productive NFL QB. As we saw in the second half of last year, once defenses made Jones stand in the pocket, the offense completely dried up. Yeah he had good games against the Colts and Vikings. If you want to know how hard it is for a QB to have a good day against the Vikings 2022 defense, go look at what Mac Jones did to them (spoiler alert - he shredded them).
There were no good QB options out there so Schoen rolled the dice that they could continue to make progress with Jones to have him play at least passable for this year and next. The gamble did not pay off. The stats Jones put up in 2022 are his NFL ceiling. It was a mistake, but there were a lot of factors contributing to that mistake.
I trust Schoen and Daboll to get a QB this year and grow him into a productive NFL starter, as well as to continue to grow Devito to hopefully be a solid backup. I also trust they will learn from the contract mistake they made with Jones.
He's walking. Injuries and the start of the season would end it. And this comes from a previous DJ supporter.Of course he ll be here next year because he's under contract they can't get out of yet. But my guess either a drafted player or a potential vet signing to compete with DJ is going to happen and the likelihood of DJ being ready for first game is unlikely in my opinion. ? at starter (and not DJ) for 2024 with DeVito the backup. DJ on pup.
Jones is done with the Giants after next year. A concussion, two serious neck injuries, and now a torn ACL mean he will be released in about 15 months, albeit with a $22M cap hit. He'd have to be a consensus top 10 QB for that not to be true. His running also makes it more likely that he will suffer another concussion or neck injury. And I say all that as someone who likes Jones more than most here, even though I was totally opposed to drafting him at #6. But his play was never remotely good enough to warrant the contract he received.
After Jones is released, another team might sign him as a "bridge starting QB" for a year or two until they find a better option. After that, he will be a high-end backup or "spot starter," which is fine.
Re: “It was a glowing review for a kid in a game which the results were one TD on a short field created by the defense, sub 200 yards passing, where we scored tied for the lowest point output scored against the Pats all year.“
Last year, by all accounts the best year of Jones career, Jones had 11 games sub -200 yds . He had 7 games of 1 TD and and an additional 6 games with O TDs.
He had 7 games with both sub 200 yds and 0-1 TDs.
Ill just point out this does not include an additional 4 games where he threw for 200-228 yds and 0-1 TDs.
And I cant go through every game but there was a game like Washington on SNF where Jones put up 160 yds 35 rush 0 TDs and the Giants won 20-12 with just 13 pts of offense on a defense TD by Thibodeaux and the D got a second TO.
Thats in his best year of his career
Who cares? That post was not about Jones. I just can't get my head around feeling good about this game. My takeway was very negative on the offensive side despite a few throws I did really like. Even if it was a rookie, the outcome was flat out ugly. Overall, we barely beat a 2 win team despite strong defensive play, on account of the offense.
I get it, a rookie without expectations. Did he show some good things? Sure. At the end of the day, I just find it hard to feel warm and fizzy about this:
Fumble (on handoff from QB)
Punt
Punt
Punt
Punt
TD (short field -- 26 yards after INT)
Punt
....
Punt
Punt
FG (short field -- 18 yards after INT)
Punt
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Every NFL QB is talented. Pull any of them out of the context of the NFL and place them them among the general population and they'll be some of the greatest athletes most people have encountered, even the mediocre QBs.
The margins that differentiate a star franchise QB from a JAG backup QB are really thin. We're talking about a quarter-second difference in decision making, half that in terms of difference in release time, etc.
That those margins are as thin as they are is what allows a meh QB to occasionally look like a star franchise QB. Blake Bortles, for example, would never be viewed by history as a franchise QB, but he was able to replicate one for a short stretch.
The same thing tends to happen with DJ, IMO. He absolutely has enough arm. He absolutely has (or had, TBD on the injury front) the wheels to be a weapon on the ground. If you were building a prototype QB, strictly from a physical standpoint, I can understand why a lot of fans would see DJ fitting the description.
But it seems that DJ is a hair too slow here and there and it adds up. We're talking tenths of seconds here. Do you think you could spot the difference between 2.4 seconds and 2.7 seconds? I don't think I could. But I've looked at the numbers enough to realize that 2.4 seconds will likely be a completion with YAC, and 2.7 seconds will likely be a sack, with the blame pinned on the OL.
If you're expecting to see throws sprayed randomly around the field in order to identify the difference between a star and a JAG, you're not going to see it. It won't be that obvious or easily identifiable. But the results, over time, do bear themselves out, IMO.
I did not think DeVito progressed at all in this game. He still holds the ball too long with people open. I am hoping it was a pause in his development as I do expect he will get even more confidence in his early reads and gets the ball out. I suspect, after the bye week with more video time, he will quicken up his pace.
He can zip it when he needs to and he sure can let it fly deep.
There is no doubt in my mind that he reads quicker than Jones and still will get better.
I have now firmly joined the Darkside, and feel it is time for a new QB. I am also pretty sure Schoen isn't out scouting QBs for his health and every game DeVito looks better than Jones is another step toward a new QB.
I am glad you are the scout, because I thought the oline was awful again. Just inconsistent run blocking and too many free tacklers allowed in the backfield. Absolutely Pugh is not stout enough at the POA. Looks to be only 280 lbs. His technique looks solid, but he is just not strong enough inside.
One thing that list does is a crucial way DeVito is better than Jones: to this point he hasn't made the crippling negative play. He takes a ton of sacks, but he doesn't turn the ball over and allows you to punt. In that sense he may be a viable long term third string guy bouncing around the league.
But yeah the Giants don't have a viable starter. If I were the GM I'd draft two QBs in April.
The Eagles will humiliate the Giants in the first game and then decide whether or not they want to humiliate the Giants in the second game. DeVito is sitting in the front car of an impending train wreck.
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Surely disconcerting about Daniel Jones lack of TD passes. It is what it is, and it ain't pretty. But it's also disconcerting that over his career Daniel Jones never had the opportunity to play with a bona-fide star like Tyreek Hill, CeeDee Lamb, A.J. Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, Davonte Smith, Travis Kelce or Jordan Jefferson, et. al. In the end, Daniel Jones may be a mediocrity (or worse), but he never threw to top shelf talent and he never stood behind an offensive line worthy of NFL status.
He's simultaneously played behind the worst OL + the worst group of skill players in the league. Some QBs will thrive with good OL/bad skill or bad OL/good skill, but you aren't doing jack shit in the NFL with bad OL/bad skill.
For noticing this you get called a cult member.
Unfuckingbelievable
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Surely disconcerting about Daniel Jones lack of TD passes. It is what it is, and it ain't pretty. But it's also disconcerting that over his career Daniel Jones never had the opportunity to play with a bona-fide star like Tyreek Hill, CeeDee Lamb, A.J. Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, Davonte Smith, Travis Kelce or Jordan Jefferson, et. al. In the end, Daniel Jones may be a mediocrity (or worse), but he never threw to top shelf talent and he never stood behind an offensive line worthy of NFL status.
He's simultaneously played behind the worst OL + the worst group of skill players in the league. Some QBs will thrive with good OL/bad skill or bad OL/good skill, but you aren't doing jack shit in the NFL with bad OL/bad skill.
For noticing this you get called a cult member.
Unfuckingbelievable
No, for being a fucking cult member you get called a cult member.
Did you think Blake Bortles was a star QB being held back by circumstance? Or did you have a more objective view when it wasn't the guy that you really, really, really wanted to like?
Life is too short to spend it praying that a mediocre QB will have everything perfect enough around them to resemble a legit NFL franchise QB.
Do the OL/skill players get a break for playing with a lousy quarterback in Jones, or does it only work one way?
It works both ways. If the ball comes out sooner, less sacks are placed against their names and the line does not need to hold the defender off as long....
One thing that list does is a crucial way DeVito is better than Jones: to this point he hasn't made the crippling negative play. He takes a ton of sacks, but he doesn't turn the ball over and allows you to punt. In that sense he may be a viable long term third string guy bouncing around the league.
But yeah the Giants don't have a viable starter. If I were the GM I'd draft two QBs in April.
I'm with you man, except I don't need two --I'll settle for one good one, LOL.
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
I agree word for word. The light is dim, but it's better than looking into the dark void of despair that we were all looking at prior to the last 2 wins.
Jones was HORRIBLE THIS season. Horrible. No one can dispute that. Even his biggest supporters here know he was horrible they just might add a caveat or two. Doesn't matter. HE was part of the problem.
Where we lose our connection is that I don't know if it is fair to just assume that DJ can't improve or bounce back.
History shows that pretty good players can have bad seasons only to bounce back with good seasons.
**And with that said I still wouldn't shy away from an upgrade at QB if the guy can be drafted. QB should be a priority. I am not deluding myself at all. I just can't sit here and say shit like "life long backup QB, Taylor, is clearly better than Jones." It's anything but clear but it could be true. Taylor had a moment or two early on where he went to the playoffs as a starter only to fade to backup role after his peak. This could certainly be happening with Jones as we speak.
Schoen strikes me as pragmatic and detail orientated. And Daboll has gotten this team to get itself off the mat with some good enough play calling and leadership. I would love to see more wins, maybe even make December interesting, but at the very least I see them competing and fighting week to week. It bodes well.
If Devito lights up GB and wins another game we should all feel free to lose our minds a little bit. Have fun. It's been a painful year we should enjoy something this season if possible.
RE: RE: The pendulum on BBI has swung way too negative
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Every NFL QB is talented. Pull any of them out of the context of the NFL and place them them among the general population and they'll be some of the greatest athletes most people have encountered, even the mediocre QBs.
The margins that differentiate a star franchise QB from a JAG backup QB are really thin. We're talking about a quarter-second difference in decision making, half that in terms of difference in release time, etc.
That those margins are as thin as they are is what allows a meh QB to occasionally look like a star franchise QB. Blake Bortles, for example, would never be viewed by history as a franchise QB, but he was able to replicate one for a short stretch.
The same thing tends to happen with DJ, IMO. He absolutely has enough arm. He absolutely has (or had, TBD on the injury front) the wheels to be a weapon on the ground. If you were building a prototype QB, strictly from a physical standpoint, I can understand why a lot of fans would see DJ fitting the description.
But it seems that DJ is a hair too slow here and there and it adds up. We're talking tenths of seconds here. Do you think you could spot the difference between 2.4 seconds and 2.7 seconds? I don't think I could. But I've looked at the numbers enough to realize that 2.4 seconds will likely be a completion with YAC, and 2.7 seconds will likely be a sack, with the blame pinned on the OL.
If you're expecting to see throws sprayed randomly around the field in order to identify the difference between a star and a JAG, you're not going to see it. It won't be that obvious or easily identifiable. But the results, over time, do bear themselves out, IMO.
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Are you hoping that they'll self-identify? Because I'd be happy to share some handles if they don't.
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Should the people who never believed in him since the second he was drafted raise their hand? Or are there too many of us?
In comment 16305947 UberAlias said:
[quote] The guy scores one TD that was assisted by one of the three turnovers the 2-win pats handed us in a game they were arguably hoping to lose. Sorry, the hype just isn't adding up. [/quot
Devito is playing okay but the hype is the result of DJ haters enjoying themselves.
In comment 16305947 UberAlias said:
[quote] The guy scores one TD that was assisted by one of the three turnovers the 2-win pats handed us in a game they were arguably hoping to lose. Sorry, the hype just isn't adding up. [/quot
Devito is playing okay but the hype is the result of DJ haters enjoying themselves.
There is no joy for a Giants fan to admit that their team has a problem at quarterback.
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Should the people who never believed in him since the second he was drafted raise their hand? Or are there too many of us?
Turn back the clock to 1984 and repeat that sentence with the word "Simms" instead of "Jones".
the problem here is anything positive written about other quarterbacks on the roster will be taken as underhanded insult to Daniel.
We're in a weird area with a group of Giants fans.
There is an absolute cult-like following that has arisen around Daniel Jones on this site. If you praise anyone not named Daniel Jones, no matter how slightly, they flood out of the woodwork and call you a hater and a bad fan.
If Jones had a microphone Infront of him and said "DeVito is a usurper and must be dealt with" I would actually worry that some on this board would be heading to Tommy's house almost immediately.
Dude. Enough with this stupid narrative. You just described MAYBE two people on the planet. Most people are ambivalent and just want to win. And there is nothing at all wrong with being a fan of (and defending) someone that you (and quite a few others) feel the need to storm threads and shit on over and over, and over, and ove... again). Some people have a higher opinion of him than you and more than a few others. Get the fuck over it already. I'm tired of having to wade through 10,000 DJ posts on every G*d*mn thread already. It's so beyond OLD.
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Should the people who never believed in him since the second he was drafted raise their hand? Or are there too many of us?
Turn back the clock to 1984 and repeat that sentence with the word "Simms" instead of "Jones".
If Jones becomes a super bowl mvp i'll buy you a beer
Do some of you guys really think DeVito would have won 10 games last year, including an away playoff game?
Do you really think DeVito would have performed even marginally better than Jones given the unprecedentedly terrible O-line play in the first part of this year? I know the mantra that good qbs can compensate for poor O-lines. Go rewatch the games.
I ain't no Jones apologist. I'd like to think I'm a realist and I really hope Giants identify and draft a quarterback with the potential to be the One, if for no other reason than there's too much risk in Jones' injury history But the notion that there's no difference between DeVito and Jones is just one other end of the Daniel Jones Derangement Syndrome.
Clatterbuck, intelligent post but I'm afraid to much common sense for some on this board.
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Should the people who never believed in him since the second he was drafted raise their hand? Or are there too many of us?
Turn back the clock to 1984 and repeat that sentence with the word "Simms" instead of "Jones".
Make sure you also erase the words "salary cap" and "free agency" from your vocabulary. And change the NFL on-field rules back to 1984 while you're at it. And then find one isolated example that might have been an outlier even then.
Any other shit from 40 years ago that you want to prop up or did all of your opinions expire a few decades ago?
Do some of you guys really think DeVito would have won 10 games last year, including an away playoff game?
Do you really think DeVito would have performed even marginally better than Jones given the unprecedentedly terrible O-line play in the first part of this year? I know the mantra that good qbs can compensate for poor O-lines. Go rewatch the games.
I ain't no Jones apologist. I'd like to think I'm a realist and I really hope Giants identify and draft a quarterback with the potential to be the One, if for no other reason than there's too much risk in Jones' injury history But the notion that there's no difference between DeVito and Jones is just one other end of the Daniel Jones Derangement Syndrome.
Clatterbuck, intelligent post but I'm afraid to much common sense for some on this board.
Let us know when you have enough common sense to spell "too" correctly.
I don't sound so stupid saying Jones may be the third best QB on his own team?
You don’t really think Taylor is better than DJ do you?
I know you said “may” and that’s a bit of a disclaimer but was that just taking a shot at DJ or do you honestly think Taylor is better?
I was a huge Jones guy until watching his performance this year. He played much worse than both Taylor and Tommy…..that has been painfully obvious . I’m not happy saying this….just being honest sharing my thoughts.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
Go re-read the review on Devito's game. This post is not at all aligned with what was written. It was a glowing review for a kid in a game which the results were one TD on a short field created by the defense, sub 200 yards passing, where we scored tied for the lowest point output scored against the Pats all year. It was an ugly ugly win against a terrible team where the defense and specials played well but not nearly enough done on the offensive side.
I can't reconcile my interpretation of the game with Sy's glowing review.
I agree 100%. The anything but DJ crowd as usual, is not making sense.
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Are you hoping that they'll self-identify? Because I'd be happy to share some handles if they don't.
There's a lot of people who regularly defend Jones. I'm just wondering if any of them have the courage to actually make this claim. If not, then I'm not even sure what they're arguing for then. Even they don't have faith in him.
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Are you hoping that they'll self-identify? Because I'd be happy to share some handles if they don't.
There's a lot of people who regularly defend Jones. I'm just wondering if any of them have the courage to actually make this claim. If not, then I'm not even sure what they're arguing for then. Even they don't have faith in him.
Is it not possible to believe both:
1. Jones is not the future as the Giants QB and he will be gone after next year; and
2. Statements claiming DeVito is a better QB are asinine
I still believe in Jones as being a good quarterback and one we can win with and advance deep into the playoffs with. Happy to share why:
-Last full season and first with Daboll he played well. Made good decisions, took the team to the playoffs, had a dynamic performance in that win, obviously got killed the next week to a superior team. Pocket presence was much improved. Played like the best player in our offense at times aside from Thomas and the games where Barkley went off. 6th in total QBR in the league in 2022. "But Ryan a lot of that is his rushing..." Yeah, OK, sure, that is part of it. "But Ryan he only played well against the Vikings and Colts." Again, not true. Went toe to toe with some of the league's top QBs and beat them straight up, at times looked flat out better than them for a stretch.
-Outside of that year it has been a lot of average play. I'd argue Judge and Garrett were sort of a disaster for him. Different philosophy around offense, played not to make a mistake. There were some games he looked the part but overall that 2 year stretch was bad. Rookie season he looked great in some games, terrible with turnovers in others.
-This year was pretty much a disaster for everyone the first 6 weeks of the season. Poor play and a historically bad OL play when it came to pressures. Not necessarily talking about sacks here, I'm talking just overall time to throw. Dallas, SF, Seattle, Miami games, he was under siege for majority of those games and it eventually got him hurt.
"But Ryan you are making excuses we are tired of it."
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
And lastly - this is a team game. Jones wasn't good when he played this year outside of the Arizona second half. We've also seen countless mistakes by OL and WRs drops over his career that haven't helped his cause.
I do believe that he'll be a good player for us next year if they balk at QB because of their draft slot. I'll get laughed at again for saying that, don't really care.
I also think it's incredibly weak as a fan base that some of you guys are dismissing the 2022 performance as if it didn't happen.
It's like you wanted Jones to play that way, and then when he did, you just said well it's because the teams we played were soft so getting to the playoffs and setting a NFL record on the road doesn't matter. We're moving on.
I choose to think that his ceiling is closer to that game than everyone else thinks. Call me crazy but that's my opinion.
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Should the people who never believed in him since the second he was drafted raise their hand? Or are there too many of us?
Hand raised here. I am reminded at such a solemn moment of that famous speech...
"April 25, 2019, a date which will live in infamy, in Nashville, Tennessee, a once proud NFL franchise was suddenly and deliberately attacked by the forces of misguided arrogance. Despite the unequivocal warnings from the advanced scouts led by Sy, that great voice of reason from the BBI bunker, the New York Football Giants were led defiantly into the horrifying depths of quarterback hell, to be forever known in posterity as the DJ Era. Today, November 28, 2023, the advanced scouting leadership has reasserted the rightful claim of this franchise to common sense and humility to make certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger the proper and fitting place of the New York Football Giants in the pantheon of great sports franchises."
I still believe in Jones as being a good quarterback and one we can win with and advance deep into the playoffs with. Happy to share why:
-Last full season and first with Daboll he played well. Made good decisions, took the team to the playoffs, had a dynamic performance in that win, obviously got killed the next week to a superior team. Pocket presence was much improved. Played like the best player in our offense at times aside from Thomas and the games where Barkley went off. 6th in total QBR in the league in 2022. "But Ryan a lot of that is his rushing..." Yeah, OK, sure, that is part of it. "But Ryan he only played well against the Vikings and Colts." Again, not true. Went toe to toe with some of the league's top QBs and beat them straight up, at times looked flat out better than them for a stretch.
-Outside of that year it has been a lot of average play. I'd argue Judge and Garrett were sort of a disaster for him. Different philosophy around offense, played not to make a mistake. There were some games he looked the part but overall that 2 year stretch was bad. Rookie season he looked great in some games, terrible with turnovers in others.
-This year was pretty much a disaster for everyone the first 6 weeks of the season. Poor play and a historically bad OL play when it came to pressures. Not necessarily talking about sacks here, I'm talking just overall time to throw. Dallas, SF, Seattle, Miami games, he was under siege for majority of those games and it eventually got him hurt.
"But Ryan you are making excuses we are tired of it."
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
And lastly - this is a team game. Jones wasn't good when he played this year outside of the Arizona second half. We've also seen countless mistakes by OL and WRs drops over his career that haven't helped his cause.
I do believe that he'll be a good player for us next year if they balk at QB because of their draft slot. I'll get laughed at again for saying that, don't really care.
I also think it's incredibly weak as a fan base that some of you guys are dismissing the 2022 performance as if it didn't happen.
It's like you wanted Jones to play that way, and then when he did, you just said well it's because the teams we played were soft so getting to the playoffs and setting a NFL record on the road doesn't matter. We're moving on.
I choose to think that his ceiling is closer to that game than everyone else thinks. Call me crazy but that's my opinion.
I think part of the disconnect on this board right now is that the people that want to move on from Jones (myself included) don't want just an average (or even good QB). That won't get you to the promised land in this league. So, the opportunity to keep shooting for the superstar/stud will always be alluring until we find that guy. I am certain it's not Jones. I'm not even sure he can be average or good anymore, but I know he won't be a superstar that takes his team to the SB.
RE: Schoen gave Jones a $40 million a year contract
he did not draft DeVito. Passed on him all 7 rounds. For those who believe DeVito is a better QB than Jones, why would you want Schoen sticking around to evaluate QBs this offseason when the Giants determine 1. whether they draft their next starting QB and 2. who that QB will be?
I think you should draft the next Giant QB, apparently you know more than Schoen.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Who hear honestly believes in Jones?
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Should the people who never believed in him since the second he was drafted raise their hand? Or are there too many of us?
Turn back the clock to 1984 and repeat that sentence with the word "Simms" instead of "Jones".
If Jones becomes a super bowl mvp i'll buy you a beer
I'll take it! (grin) I have no idea if Jones is the guy. I have no idea if he's ever going to be a top QB. But I felt the same about Simms, and I felt the same about Eli. And Hoss was no great shakes in NY after winning the whole enchilada against Buffalo, replacing Simms in Week 14.
Whenever someone uses head-to-head QB wins as a determining factor
QBs don't play each other head to head. They play the other team's defense. I have no interest in having DJ be an attachment to Wink's unit having success against opposing QBs.
RE: RE: Schoen gave Jones a $40 million a year contract
he did not draft DeVito. Passed on him all 7 rounds. For those who believe DeVito is a better QB than Jones, why would you want Schoen sticking around to evaluate QBs this offseason when the Giants determine 1. whether they draft their next starting QB and 2. who that QB will be?
I think you should draft the next Giant QB, apparently you know more than Schoen.
Do some of you guys really think DeVito would have won 10 games last year, including an away playoff game?
Do you really think DeVito would have performed even marginally better than Jones given the unprecedentedly terrible O-line play in the first part of this year? I know the mantra that good qbs can compensate for poor O-lines. Go rewatch the games.
I ain't no Jones apologist. I'd like to think I'm a realist and I really hope Giants identify and draft a quarterback with the potential to be the One, if for no other reason than there's too much risk in Jones' injury history But the notion that there's no difference between DeVito and Jones is just one other end of the Daniel Jones Derangement Syndrome.
Clatterbuck, intelligent post but I'm afraid to much common sense for some on this board.
Let us know when you have enough common sense to spell "too" correctly.
Dude... many of us often post from a phone, when we have some spare minutes, if you want punctuation, spelling and grammar, this is not the place.
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
TO EVERYONE ON BBI - WHO HERE HAS FORGOTTEN THE GIANTS WON A PLAYOFF GAME LAST YEAR? ANYONE?
I don't think its humanely possible to forget since we are reminded on every single thread from the DJFC members.
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
TO EVERYONE ON BBI - WHO HERE HAS FORGOTTEN THE GIANTS WON A PLAYOFF GAME LAST YEAR? ANYONE?
I don't think its humanely possible to forget since we are reminded on every single thread from the DJFC members.
DJFC may be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Are you trying to insult people who are a fan of a player of a team that they root for? So effing dumb.
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
TO EVERYONE ON BBI - WHO HERE HAS FORGOTTEN THE GIANTS WON A PLAYOFF GAME LAST YEAR? ANYONE?
I don't think its humanely possible to forget since we are reminded on every single thread from the DJFC members.
I'm not talking about defending him on that one topic. I mean the people who regularly defend him in these threads over and over. If you believe in the guy, just come out and say it. IMO, I do believe there is some points to be made in the pro-Jones arguments. But most of those points in my view speak to what could be, not necessarily what is. I myself would not come here every day and fight for his name unless I firmly believed he was the answer. Unfortunately, I don't. But I have a sense that, if you honestly believe in the guy --come out and say it. I can respect that. But if you don't really believe in him that much, I do kind of wonder why some would be fighting the battle every day if they themselves didn't fully believe in the guy.
I still believe in Jones as being a good quarterback and one we can win with and advance deep into the playoffs with.
This is what Seattle rookie corner said about Jones in early October:
Quote:
“We knew he liked to stare down his first target,” Witherspoon said when asked about his pick six to help Seattle beat the Giants...
After five years in the NFL, a franchise QB should be way past these amateur mistakes. If Seattle knew it, I guarantee the rest of the league knows the deficiency, too.
I know this has been brought up before but watch a Texans game. Their gifted rookie Stroud acts like he's the five-year vet the way he scans the field and finds open receivers. It's very impressive and creates a lot of envy.
I'm not talking about defending him on that one topic. I mean the people who regularly defend him in these threads over and over. If you believe in the guy, just come out and say it. IMO, I do believe there is some points to be made in the pro-Jones arguments. But most of those points in my view speak to what could be, not necessarily what is. I myself would not come here every day and fight for his name unless I firmly believed he was the answer. Unfortunately, I don't. But I have a sense that, if you honestly believe in the guy --come out and say it. I can respect that. But if you don't really believe in him that much, I do kind of wonder why some would be fighting the battle every day if they themselves didn't fully believe in the guy.
You don't think it's possible to 1. Believe Jones is not the answer at QB in the future and 2. Not be a complete unhinged lunatic about it?
Some of you act like Jones banged your wife. Shit.
Playoff game in 2032 after Jones amasses his career record of 70-180.
The Giants have the fourth lowest winning percentage in all four of the major sports since Daniel Jones got drafted. Let’s stop being impressed by one outlier game while completely ignoring the game he played the next week.
And lastly, we have the owner of the site saying stuff like "Daniel Jones doesn't know how to throw TD passes."
Comments like that are not only insulting to people who watch football, but aren't rooted in anything realistic.
I guess we have conveniently forgotten the times throughout his career where he has indeed, thrown TD passes, including just last season, where he had 2 in the most important game of the year, and 2 in the road playoff win.
Maybe we ask Darren Waller why or how he dropped the perfect TD pass that Jones threw to him from 30 yards out against Miami. Maybe we ask why Engram dropped the throw against the Eagles that would have secured us a division title in 2020 (shitty division, I know). Maybe we ask Jones why he couldn't beat the Chiefs on the road by himself in 2021.
Listen, a lot of coaches this offseason will be fired despite having X/Y/Z accomplishment in past seasons. And a lot more accomplishments than 1 postseason game. That's life in the "Not For Long " league.
I have long supported DJ and still hope he gets a shot somewhere else. But NYG need to move on. If he was going to be a thing he would have by been one by now. Maybe that makes him a victim of circumstance or maybe that's an indictment on him and his NFL limitations. Either way, it doesn't help the future of the NYG to keep hoping each year with him will be different. It won't.
I'm not even necessarily of the opinion we have to go QB in Round 1 but long gone are any personal hopes that we have the near/mid term QB solution in house right now. We don't.
I'm not talking about defending him on that one topic. I mean the people who regularly defend him in these threads over and over. If you believe in the guy, just come out and say it. IMO, I do believe there is some points to be made in the pro-Jones arguments. But most of those points in my view speak to what could be, not necessarily what is. I myself would not come here every day and fight for his name unless I firmly believed he was the answer. Unfortunately, I don't. But I have a sense that, if you honestly believe in the guy --come out and say it. I can respect that. But if you don't really believe in him that much, I do kind of wonder why some would be fighting the battle every day if they themselves didn't fully believe in the guy.
You don't think it's possible to 1. Believe Jones is not the answer at QB in the future and 2. Not be a complete unhinged lunatic about it?
Some of you act like Jones banged your wife. Shit.
I still believe in Jones as being a good quarterback and one we can win with and advance deep into the playoffs with. Happy to share why:
-Last full season and first with Daboll he played well. Made good decisions, took the team to the playoffs, had a dynamic performance in that win, obviously got killed the next week to a superior team. Pocket presence was much improved. Played like the best player in our offense at times aside from Thomas and the games where Barkley went off. 6th in total QBR in the league in 2022. "But Ryan a lot of that is his rushing..." Yeah, OK, sure, that is part of it. "But Ryan he only played well against the Vikings and Colts." Again, not true. Went toe to toe with some of the league's top QBs and beat them straight up, at times looked flat out better than them for a stretch.
-Outside of that year it has been a lot of average play. I'd argue Judge and Garrett were sort of a disaster for him. Different philosophy around offense, played not to make a mistake. There were some games he looked the part but overall that 2 year stretch was bad. Rookie season he looked great in some games, terrible with turnovers in others.
-This year was pretty much a disaster for everyone the first 6 weeks of the season. Poor play and a historically bad OL play when it came to pressures. Not necessarily talking about sacks here, I'm talking just overall time to throw. Dallas, SF, Seattle, Miami games, he was under siege for majority of those games and it eventually got him hurt.
"But Ryan you are making excuses we are tired of it."
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
And lastly - this is a team game. Jones wasn't good when he played this year outside of the Arizona second half. We've also seen countless mistakes by OL and WRs drops over his career that haven't helped his cause.
I do believe that he'll be a good player for us next year if they balk at QB because of their draft slot. I'll get laughed at again for saying that, don't really care.
I also think it's incredibly weak as a fan base that some of you guys are dismissing the 2022 performance as if it didn't happen.
It's like you wanted Jones to play that way, and then when he did, you just said well it's because the teams we played were soft so getting to the playoffs and setting a NFL record on the road doesn't matter. We're moving on.
I choose to think that his ceiling is closer to that game than everyone else thinks. Call me crazy but that's my opinion.
Absolutely correct, I think the guy has a wealth of talent and your post is a breath of fresh air.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Who hear honestly believes in Jones?
Playoff game in 2032 after Jones amasses his career record of 70-180.
The Giants have the fourth lowest winning percentage in all four of the major sports since Daniel Jones got drafted. Let’s stop being impressed by one outlier game while completely ignoring the game he played the next week.
And lastly, we have the owner of the site saying stuff like "Daniel Jones doesn't know how to throw TD passes."
Comments like that are not only insulting to people who watch football, but aren't rooted in anything realistic.
Nothing realistic except for reality.
He doesn't throw enough TD passes, and he hasn't since his rookie year. Since then, the HC has changed, the OC has changed, the OL has changed, the WRs have changed, the TEs have changed, the fucking turf has changed. The only thing that has stayed the same is DJ.
DJ doesn't know how to throw TD passes. Or if he does know how to, then he must be consciously deciding to not do it.
I'm not talking about defending him on that one topic. I mean the people who regularly defend him in these threads over and over. If you believe in the guy, just come out and say it. IMO, I do believe there is some points to be made in the pro-Jones arguments. But most of those points in my view speak to what could be, not necessarily what is. I myself would not come here every day and fight for his name unless I firmly believed he was the answer. Unfortunately, I don't. But I have a sense that, if you honestly believe in the guy --come out and say it. I can respect that. But if you don't really believe in him that much, I do kind of wonder why some would be fighting the battle every day if they themselves didn't fully believe in the guy.
You don't think it's possible to 1. Believe Jones is not the answer at QB in the future and 2. Not be a complete unhinged lunatic about it?
Some of you act like Jones banged your wife. Shit.
And some of you act like Jones is your wife.
The funny thing is, I thought my post was fairly non combative. But then this guy comes back at me about unhinged lunatic's and references to Jones bangging people's wives, LOL.
GD, i understand the need to make everything a dramatic over the top thing.
But Daniel Jones does know how to throw TD passes, we've seen him do it, as you said, just not enough.
I'd argue there are factors at play as to why there haven't been enough. Such as a decently competent OL, and weapons that can get open and catch the ball. We saw glimpes of it in 2022.
I fear the possibility that ownership’s extended family share this unshakable belief that Daniel Jones can be a thing. He won’t. Philly would still be propping up Wentz if they had the same (loser) mentality.
And by the way, I'll be ecstatic if they draft Williams or Maye. Welcome aboard.
But I do not want to overdraft a QB just because Jones played poorly for 4 weeks and then tore his knee. Doesn't make sense to me. Take a top end talent at QB that you think can change your franchise for the better.
If they aren't available, continue to build up with awesome picks at Edge, WR, and interior OL. That would be my plan.
If we draft Malik Nabers at 7, then load up Edge and IOL in round 2, I'll be perfectly happy.
I guess we have conveniently forgotten the times throughout his career where he has indeed, thrown TD passes, including just last season, where he had 2 in the most important game of the year, and 2 in the road playoff win.
He threw 15 touchdowns last year. There’s 15 QBs that have passed that mark this year, and we’ll likely be at 21 by the end of the year. Those names include Jordan Love, CJ Stroud, Baker Mayfield, and Sam Howell. Josh Dobbs likely ends up in that category if he keeps the job. Heck, DeVito might get to 15 in 10 games. He has 36 touchdowns in the last three years. Three quarterbacks threw that amount just last year.
At Jones’ career pace of touchdowns he would need 3.5 years to pass Justin Herbert in career touchdowns, if Herbert took 3.5 years off. He would need two years if he somehow doubled his touchdown output to 30 a year. Herbert has also played one less year.
You’ll be taken more seriously on here when you stop acting like 2022 was some sort of prolific performance.
The Panthers have changed their QB situation like 9 times in 3 seasons and they still suck, because they thought they were a QB away and they aren't. Their OL sucks, their weapons suck, their secondary sucks. They dealt away a ton of assets for Young and they are still terrible because they neglected their roster.
If Williams or Maye are not available, continue to build.
Hell if Schoen like JJ McCarthy, by all means take the guy. Just not in round 1.
And by the way, I'll be ecstatic if they draft Williams or Maye. Welcome aboard.
But I do not want to overdraft a QB just because Jones played poorly for 4 weeks and then tore his knee. Doesn't make sense to me. Take a top end talent at QB that you think can change your franchise for the better.
If they aren't available, continue to build up with awesome picks at Edge, WR, and interior OL. That would be my plan.
If we draft Malik Nabers at 7, then load up Edge and IOL in round 2, I'll be perfectly happy.
ajr, for the 1000th time, you and i are never going to agree on this. You saying stuff like "you'd be taken more seriously here IF" means you just want me to say something that you agree with, and then you'll somehow take me more seriously.
You'll never take me seriously, because I believe in Daniel Jones. Just leave it at that.
RE: RE: The pendulum on BBI has swung way too negative
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Every NFL QB is talented. Pull any of them out of the context of the NFL and place them them among the general population and they'll be some of the greatest athletes most people have encountered, even the mediocre QBs.
The margins that differentiate a star franchise QB from a JAG backup QB are really thin. We're talking about a quarter-second difference in decision making, half that in terms of difference in release time, etc.
That those margins are as thin as they are is what allows a meh QB to occasionally look like a star franchise QB. Blake Bortles, for example, would never be viewed by history as a franchise QB, but he was able to replicate one for a short stretch.
The same thing tends to happen with DJ, IMO. He absolutely has enough arm. He absolutely has (or had, TBD on the injury front) the wheels to be a weapon on the ground. If you were building a prototype QB, strictly from a physical standpoint, I can understand why a lot of fans would see DJ fitting the description.
But it seems that DJ is a hair too slow here and there and it adds up. We're talking tenths of seconds here. Do you think you could spot the difference between 2.4 seconds and 2.7 seconds? I don't think I could. But I've looked at the numbers enough to realize that 2.4 seconds will likely be a completion with YAC, and 2.7 seconds will likely be a sack, with the blame pinned on the OL.
If you're expecting to see throws sprayed randomly around the field in order to identify the difference between a star and a JAG, you're not going to see it. It won't be that obvious or easily identifiable. But the results, over time, do bear themselves out, IMO.
This is a fantastic post. I wish you would post this way more often, honestly. It adds a LOT more value to this site than back and forth going after somebody.
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
TO EVERYONE ON BBI - WHO HERE HAS FORGOTTEN THE GIANTS WON A PLAYOFF GAME LAST YEAR? ANYONE?
I don't think its humanely possible to forget since we are reminded on every single thread from the DJFC members.
DJFC may be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Are you trying to insult people who are a fan of a player of a team that they root for? So effing dumb.
The DJFC term refers to those who root for DJ above the Giants, not simply because he's the Giants' QB. The fans who are more invested in rooting for the redemption story of DJ proving his doubters (or "haters") wrong than they are in the Giants being a consistent championship contender.
The reason for my view on what constitutes a DJFC poster is that most of these fans have no problem trashing the other 52 players on the roster in their effort to make excuses for DJ, but refuse to place any blame on #8. Why do they say that someone is a "bad fan" if they are done with DJ at QB, but those same posters will call KT a bust, or call Waller a "china doll," etc.? There are several examples of this on the top page of threads right now even with DJ on IR.
Why does DJ get undying affection and loyalty but no other Giants get the same treatment?
ajr, for the 1000th time, you and i are never going to agree on this. You saying stuff like "you'd be taken more seriously here IF" means you just want me to say something that you agree with, and then you'll somehow take me more seriously.
You'll never take me seriously, because I believe in Daniel Jones. Just leave it at that.
Well no, I’ll never take you serious because you’re an idiot. But there still might be hope for the rest of the board.
ajr, the clock restarted on Jones when they hired Daboll.
I couldn't care less how he played before that, which is why I mentioned earlier that his rookie year he showed a lot, and then was bad a lot, and then those 2 years with Judge and Garrett were a shitshow.
Daboll showed what he can do. I'm confident he can get there again and be better than that. But if they choose to go in another direction I am absolutely fine with it.
I am not sure why I am being attacked for having this opinion, but I get it.
I'm not talking about defending him on that one topic. I mean the people who regularly defend him in these threads over and over. If you believe in the guy, just come out and say it. IMO, I do believe there is some points to be made in the pro-Jones arguments. But most of those points in my view speak to what could be, not necessarily what is. I myself would not come here every day and fight for his name unless I firmly believed he was the answer. Unfortunately, I don't. But I have a sense that, if you honestly believe in the guy --come out and say it. I can respect that. But if you don't really believe in him that much, I do kind of wonder why some would be fighting the battle every day if they themselves didn't fully believe in the guy.
You don't think it's possible to 1. Believe Jones is not the answer at QB in the future and 2. Not be a complete unhinged lunatic about it?
Some of you act like Jones banged your wife. Shit.
And some of you act like Jones is your wife.
The funny thing is, I thought my post was fairly non combative. But then this guy comes back at me about unhinged lunatic's and references to Jones bangging people's wives, LOL.
Yep, it doesn't really matter Uber. They've lost their minds at this point. I am convinced.
ajr, for the 1000th time, you and i are never going to agree on this. You saying stuff like "you'd be taken more seriously here IF" means you just want me to say something that you agree with, and then you'll somehow take me more seriously.
You'll never take me seriously, because I believe in Daniel Jones. Just leave it at that.
Well no, I’ll never take you serious because you’re an idiot. But there still might be hope for the rest of the board.
Got it - and posts like that are the reason that this conversation is no longer fun for anybody.
GD, there is not a single poster on this message board or any Giants fan who would somehow magically root for the success of Daniel Jones over the success of the Giants as a team.
That is a completely made up thing. Nobody would be a true fan of the Giants if that were the case.
I love the Giants. I also think Jones can be really good. I also would not give a shit if they drafted another QB who becomes great and the team is great.
I am not sure why you guys continue to say things like that.
ajr, the clock restarted on Jones when they hired Daboll.
I couldn't care less how he played before that, which is why I mentioned earlier that his rookie year he showed a lot, and then was bad a lot, and then those 2 years with Judge and Garrett were a shitshow.
Daboll showed what he can do. I'm confident he can get there again and be better than that. But if they choose to go in another direction I am absolutely fine with it.
I am not sure why I am being attacked for having this opinion, but I get it.
That’s not how it works. The other years just don’t count in deciding what Jones is as a quarterback. If that was the case Winston would still have a job based on his 2016 season.
We’re not talking about an MVP season, we’re talking about a season where he had more 0 touchdown games than multi touchdown games passing. Daboll showed what he can do with Jones, 15 touchdowns with a remedial passing game and some smoke and mirrors. That’s Jones’ ceiling, and it’s evident how it started to come crashing down in the second half of last year against good teams and carried into this year. His 2022 season as passer is basically identical to his 2022 and 2021 seasons just with a 3% bump in completion percentage and a .4% bump in TD percentage.
He was the same guy in 2022 he’s been his whole career, a mediocre at best QB who can’t throw for touchdowns. They just happened to have more things go their way last year and won more games.
How about we all relax....try to win games and let competition decide
QB, if the chance to draft a QB comes along you have to do it! And...It doesn't require the 1st two picks in the draft...it requires good scouting!!!!! Jones has a long rehab, he might and might not be the answer, but we own him to the tune of 40 million. I get why people like him he checks EVERY INTAGABLE Box but he has not developed any constancy. Does he consistently make good reads, NO. I get the line is shaky but so are a lot of crappy OLines and many of the QB's behind them have played better. Has he had some real good games? Yes...but not consistently over his time. I think he's a better football player than a QB. Use him like Tayson Hill??? Taylor might be the odd man out, FA, older and injury prone. Draft a younger prospect. So lets relax, let DJ heal, bring in competition, keep developing DeVito, and roll the ball out and let the best man win. Us arguing achieves nothing.
about Joe Schoen's decision making are so far wide of the mark, but not really surprising.
I really can't be bothered to get into it, but you have no idea how the Giant's organisation functions.
RE: How about we all relax....try to win games and let competition decide
QB, if the chance to draft a QB comes along you have to do it! And...It doesn't require the 1st two picks in the draft...it requires good scouting!!!!! Jones has a long rehab, he might and might not be the answer, but we own him to the tune of 40 million. I get why people like him he checks EVERY INTAGABLE Box but he has not developed any constancy. Does he consistently make good reads, NO. I get the line is shaky but so are a lot of crappy OLines and many of the QB's behind them have played better. Has he had some real good games? Yes...but not consistently over his time. I think he's a better football player than a QB. Use him like Tayson Hill??? Taylor might be the odd man out, FA, older and injury prone. Draft a younger prospect. So lets relax, let DJ heal, bring in competition, keep developing DeVito, and roll the ball out and let the best man win. Us arguing achieves nothing.
Sure it does. It's what fan forums were built for.
Some of you can't come to grips with the fact that I think Jones can be really good, so you then conflate it with other arguments and other insults that have nothing to do with Jones.
I've said that tanking is for losers and rooting for losses is for losers, and I'll continue to support that theory. Not any one player is a guarantee, there are QBs who get drafted beyond Williams or Maye that could likely be better than them. There are QBs who come out of the 2025 and 2026 draft who may be better than them.
I root for the Giants to win every Sunday. That doesn't make me a better fan than anyone else. I just think rooting for losses is weak, and it doesn't have anything to do with Daniel Jones.
If the Giants have the 8th pick and take Jayden Daniels, I won't agree with it, but I'll root like hell for the kid and hope he's really good.
Some of you can't come to grips with the fact that I think Jones can be really good, so you then conflate it with other arguments and other insults that have nothing to do with Jones.
I've said that tanking is for losers and rooting for losses is for losers, and I'll continue to support that theory. Not any one player is a guarantee, there are QBs who get drafted beyond Williams or Maye that could likely be better than them. There are QBs who come out of the 2025 and 2026 draft who may be better than them.
I root for the Giants to win every Sunday. That doesn't make me a better fan than anyone else. I just think rooting for losses is weak, and it doesn't have anything to do with Daniel Jones.
If the Giants have the 8th pick and take Jayden Daniels, I won't agree with it, but I'll root like hell for the kid and hope he's really good.
Do you think he can be good enough to get the Giants to a SB?
Some of you can't come to grips with the fact that I think Jones can be really good, so you then conflate it with other arguments and other insults that have nothing to do with Jones.
I've said that tanking is for losers and rooting for losses is for losers, and I'll continue to support that theory. Not any one player is a guarantee, there are QBs who get drafted beyond Williams or Maye that could likely be better than them. There are QBs who come out of the 2025 and 2026 draft who may be better than them.
I root for the Giants to win every Sunday. That doesn't make me a better fan than anyone else. I just think rooting for losses is weak, and it doesn't have anything to do with Daniel Jones.
If the Giants have the 8th pick and take Jayden Daniels, I won't agree with it, but I'll root like hell for the kid and hope he's really good.
We have come to grips with it; we just can't believe any sober, sane individual would still believe so. ;0)
LW, yeah, I do think he could bring the Giants to a SB.
He brought them to the divisional round with a pretty shitty roster. I think if he improves as a player and the Giants improve their roster, they can get there.
First full season he was third in touchdown passes. Compared to Eli before his light went on, Jones’ light isn’t even plugged in and he’s sticking a fork in the socket.
I may be wrong, and if I am...cool. As I said, Giants may trade up for Williams or Maye. I'd love it. I think both are absolutely unequivocally better players and prospects than Jones, obviously.
But again, I would still like the strategy of nailing 3 top 50 picks for the roster as a whole along with some value FA, and think we could be on to something as well.
The Giants should likely be 5-7 or 6-6 right now. They aren't as far off as everyone thinks, in my opinion.
I have to say, you are unapologetically bullish when it comes to Jones. I completely disagree, but you give opinions and this is a message board, so it doesn't bother me like it does others.
But, I'll say this - based on your thoughts with Jones, the Eagles could have done the same thing with Wentz. They didn't and it's paying off for them. You have to know when it's time to move on.
GD, there is not a single poster on this message board or any Giants fan who would somehow magically root for the success of Daniel Jones over the success of the Giants as a team.
That is a completely made up thing. Nobody would be a true fan of the Giants if that were the case.
I love the Giants. I also think Jones can be really good. I also would not give a shit if they drafted another QB who becomes great and the team is great.
I am not sure why you guys continue to say things like that.
When someone trashes every individual player on the OL, and every individual player in the WR corps, and every individual player in the TE group, just so that they can avoid placing ANY blame on DJ, that is absolutely rooting for one player above the team. They're willing to trash 20 guys to preserve their view of one guy.
I will say this to your credit, Ryan - I believe you're generally consistent. I think it bothers you to see any Giants player struggle, and I think you tend to be reluctant to criticize any of them. But I think that brings about a separate credibility issue. It's hard to take your patience seriously when you were also pleading with the board to "let it play out" through Ereck Flowers' time here, for example.
But for the posters to whom I'm referring, they are completely comfortable talking shit about every player and coach involved with the offense, except for Daniel Jones. They would cycle through OCs every year rather than replace the QB. They would draft nothing but OL and WRs every year because they're convinced that it couldn't possibly be Jones's fault. That's what constitutes a DJFC POV, IMO.
Would you like for me to go find some of the posts where this happens? Or can we agree that it's a fairly prevalent occurrence among a small subset of the fanbase?
Jones threw double the amount of TD passes as games played as a rookie. He was then told to play pussy football for 2 seasons, and was starting to show some things again with Daboll, which restarted his career a bit.
The guy knows how to throw TD passes. He hasn't done enough of it obviously - everyone knows that.
But he didn't just wake up one day and say hey you know what I'm going to not throw TD passes today. The team was abysmal and he had zero time to throw the ball the first month, aside from one game.
ajr, and Jones was tied for 7th in TD passes as a rookie, where he played 12 games. What does it matter?
I thought only the Daboll years count?
What is your point? I'm saying it doesn't matter. It was a long time ago and I think Daboll restarted his career, I could care less what happened previously.
You made the point about Eli having a lot of TD passes his first full season, and so I countered with Jones doing basically the same thing as a rookie.
I'm not trashing individual players. I'm saying the collective groups have been pretty much a disaster for a number of years. OL aside from Thomas has been bad. WR aside from a few flashes here and there have been very medicore. Engram - to his credit he turned it out - was a walking turnover everytime we threw it his way.
I have to say, you are unapologetically bullish when it comes to Jones. I completely disagree, but you give opinions and this is a message board, so it doesn't bother me like it does others.
But, I'll say this - based on your thoughts with Jones, the Eagles could have done the same thing with Wentz. They didn't and it's paying off for them. You have to know when it's time to move on.
Totally - and if Schoen chooses to do that - I will be on board and be with Schoen 100%.
Jones threw double the amount of TD passes as games played as a rookie. He was then told to play pussy football for 2 seasons, and was starting to show some things again with Daboll, which restarted his career a bit.
The guy knows how to throw TD passes. He hasn't done enough of it obviously - everyone knows that.
But he didn't just wake up one day and say hey you know what I'm going to not throw TD passes today. The team was abysmal and he had zero time to throw the ball the first month, aside from one game.
You're right - it wasn't actually a conscious decision to not throw TD passes.
But I do think it's worth at least considering that the only time we've seen DJ have anything approaching prolific passing success, a) it came in only a handful of games that season (but it doesn't seem uncommon for rookies to be inconsistent like that); and b) it was accompanied by an unacceptably high number of turnovers.
We have not seen DJ be able to be a dangerous passing threat since he cut down on the turnovers, and I believe it's reasonable to at least ask if he's able to do one without the other. The TDs in his rookie year were ultimately hollow because of the fumbles (and INTs, to a lesser extent). And many here said that if he could keep the success while cleaning up the turnovers, he'd be a star. But that didn't happen. As far as we can observe, the only way that he was able to clean up the turnovers was to become the most conservative passing QB in the league.
If that's ultimately what he is - a choice between a turnover machine or a TD-averse passer - that's not going to result in consistent success.
I think we can probably believe it, since you already said it on another thread. And because you're talking to an audience that spends just as much time on Giants.com as you.
I bet no one besides you is surprised that a for-profit entity is selling something for which there is perceived demand.
LW, yeah, I do think he could bring the Giants to a SB.
He brought them to the divisional round with a pretty shitty roster. I think if he improves as a player and the Giants improve their roster, they can get there.
Got it. I think we just have a fundamental disagreement as to his talent level then. That, of course, is totally fine but it also means neither side is going to convince the other.
You’re missing the forest for the trees because you’re biased
Daniel Jones throws his career high in touchdown passes as a rookie, when the league had zero film on him. Most of those touchdowns came against bad teams.
The next two years after the league having film on him he turns into a miserable QB. Sure Garrett and Judge played a role, but a guy who could be elite one day won’t drop off that far just because of coaching.
What happens next? Daboll comes a long and Jones has a decent year, in part because the league has no film on Jones in Dabolls scheme that utilized his best asset in his legs to make him a better passer.
As the season went on and more stuff went on film the production began to drop off. The league caught up.
So this year Daboll has no choice but to open things up and the offense cratered.
The only two decent Jones seasons were years where the league had no tape on him operating the system. They caught on pretty quick.
I'm not trashing individual players. I'm saying the collective groups have been pretty much a disaster for a number of years. OL aside from Thomas has been bad. WR aside from a few flashes here and there have been very medicore. Engram - to his credit he turned it out - was a walking turnover everytime we threw it his way.
I'm saying Schoen needs to find better players.
Like I said, I do think you tend to be generally consistent in your patience with any/all Giants players. Sometimes to a fault (see Flowers, Ereck), but that's a separate issue.
But many of your fellow fans on the pro-DJ side of the aisle are much less consistent. They do trash individual players in order to prop up their support for DJ.
RE: You’re missing the forest for the trees because you’re biased
Daniel Jones throws his career high in touchdown passes as a rookie, when the league had zero film on him. Most of those touchdowns came against bad teams.
The next two years after the league having film on him he turns into a miserable QB. Sure Garrett and Judge played a role, but a guy who could be elite one day won’t drop off that far just because of coaching.
What happens next? Daboll comes a long and Jones has a decent year, in part because the league has no film on Jones in Dabolls scheme that utilized his best asset in his legs to make him a better passer.
As the season went on and more stuff went on film the production began to drop off. The league caught up.
So this year Daboll has no choice but to open things up and the offense cratered.
The only two decent Jones seasons were years where the league had no tape on him operating the system. They caught on pretty quick.
This is a pretty solid post ajr. And now the number of comments coming in from defensive players around the league on attacking Jones continues to grow.
got 9 turnovers, and we still barely won both games. I like what DeVito has done, but being a Cuse fan, he got benched due to holding onto the ball and taking sacks, they are drive killers. I'm hoping he can improve on that, but he didn't in 3 years at SU. Anyone thinking he's better than Jones right now is foolish.
But many of your fellow fans on the pro-DJ side of the aisle are much less consistent. They do trash individual players in order to prop up their support for DJ.
The DJFC are boxed in these days. I hear them criticize other QBs like Justin Fields, Sam Howell, Kenny Pickett, Malik Willis, etc. They said they aren't good QBs, and the teams should move on. And that may indeed be true.
But these QBs don't have nearly the # of starts Jones had before he looked remotely like a decent QB, which was in year four. So, how can they pass judgment when their QB icon was given an unusual amount of time to show something...
Can do, Tommy DeVito as a passer is having a very similar year to 2022 Jones in his starts. He’s completing 65% of his passes for 205 yards since the Jets game. That tells you everything you need to know about Daniel Jones.
I have yet to see anyone try to argue that DeVito is the answer
got 9 turnovers, and we still barely won both games. I like what DeVito has done, but being a Cuse fan, he got benched due to holding onto the ball and taking sacks, they are drive killers. I'm hoping he can improve on that, but he didn't in 3 years at SU. Anyone thinking he's better than Jones right now is foolish.
No one is arguing Devito doesn't hold onto the ball too long. But he's also throwing TDs at a much higher rate than Jones was and not turning the ball over himself. And this is only after playing a few NFL games versus Jones being the starter since 2019.
The question you should be asking isn't whether who is better between Jones and Devito, it's how is Jones not exponentially better?
Over half of his touchdowns came in three games against terrible defenses. Those three games *still* represent 20% of his career TD passes.
I've asked this in the past, and now here we are after five seasons in the same place - what is the point at which you conclude that Jones has had his chances and not taken advantage of them?
the problem here is anything positive written about other quarterbacks on the roster will be taken as underhanded insult to Daniel.
We're in a weird area with a group of Giants fans.
The 4th post of this thread, you claim DeVito is better than Jones. That isn't an "underhanded insult." More like direct. It's a ridiculous notion.
You are taking it as an insult. I am claiming it might be true.
Just last year Jones went 9-7-1 with a terrible OL and Hodgins as the best WR, and then won a playoff game. Wake me up when DeVito does that.
I like DeVito as the backup QB going forward. Jones will be gone due to the contract in '25, when they can get out of it.
The comparison is so funny when you take into account the scholarship DJ had and what Devito is.
If Devito had started the # of games Jones had started going into 2022, I genuinely think Devito would had QB'd the Giants to a better record last year.
Eric says it best, DJ just does not throw TD passes.
How many times has Jones beaten a team that was over .500?
But many of your fellow fans on the pro-DJ side of the aisle are much less consistent. They do trash individual players in order to prop up their support for DJ.
The DJFC are boxed in these days. I hear them criticize other QBs like Justin Fields, Sam Howell, Kenny Pickett, Malik Willis, etc. They said they aren't good QBs, and the teams should move on. And that may indeed be true.
But these QBs don't have nearly the # of starts Jones had before he looked remotely like a decent QB, which was in year four. So, how can they pass judgment when their QB icon was given an unusual amount of time to show something...
Yep.
RE: How many times has Jones beaten a team that was over .500?
Giants don't have a QB. By definition, that means they are "far away," but certainly at a minimum it means they are nowhere near ready to compete with the Eagles and the Cowboys.
ajr, for the 1000th time, you and i are never going to agree on this. You saying stuff like "you'd be taken more seriously here IF" means you just want me to say something that you agree with, and then you'll somehow take me more seriously.
You'll never take me seriously, because I believe in Daniel Jones. Just leave it at that.
Well no, I’ll never take you serious because you’re an idiot. But there still might be hope for the rest of the board.
Got it - and posts like that are the reason that this conversation is no longer fun for anybody.
Posts like that? As opposed to you frequently saying how happy you would be and how much better off BBI would be when ajr and other posters would disappear again when Jones got back and played well.
You don't get to play the victim after stuff like that
The Giants should likely be 5-7 or 6-6 right now. They aren't as far off as everyone thinks, in my opinion.
Yes, if the Giants caught a ton of breaks this season they could be .500. You could say that for just about any team aside from the Panthers. The Giants have a -133 (!) point differential and needed a missed chip shot FG and a miracle comeback to beat ARZ and NE (two of the worst teams (along with the Giants and Panthers) in the league).
The Giants are right where they belong this year. They've won and lost some close games and lost a bunch of games where they weren't even competitive.
Many fans just remember the close losses and love to say "what if" about those, but don't want to play the same game for close wins.
I mean I'm sure that will get dismissed as a team stat, but I'm so bored of people clinging onto that fugazi playoff game.
I did this exercise six months ago - based on the opponent's final record of the year. Prior to 2021, he hadn't beaten a single team that ended the year with a winning record. Not one.
Since then, he has won four regular season games and one playoff game. In 2021, it was two - the Saints (10/3/21) and the Raiders (11/7/21). In 2022, he beat the Ravens (10/16/22), the Jaguars (10/23/22) and the Vikings (1/15/23).
That's it. And there will be zero in 2023. So a total of five games in five years.
The Giants could have easily been 7-10 and out of the playoffs last year.
This is something many don't want to admit. Looking back at the 22 Giants I see them as a 6 win team that caught some breaks to get to 9 wins and backed into the playoffs
Gano missed a 35 yarder that he makes in his sleep. Taylor checked into a run on the goal line that was clearly a mental error. 6-6 or 5-7, but they should likely have 1 more win.
These aren’t a few calls here, a few breaks there.
The Giants should have beaten the Bills in Buffalo, a team that just outplayed the Eagles for 59 minutes in Philadelphia.
Team is not as far off as people would think, if the offense can get it together next season.
Gano missed a 35 yarder that he makes in his sleep. Taylor checked into a run on the goal line that was clearly a mental error. 6-6 or 5-7, but they should likely have 1 more win.
These aren’t a few calls here, a few breaks there.
The Giants should have beaten the Bills in Buffalo, a team that just outplayed the Eagles for 59 minutes in Philadelphia.
Team is not as far off as people would think, if the offense can get it together next season.
Correct
They have multiple All Pro caliber players on this team and several solid starters. It is the depth and OL that concern me the most
First full season he was third in touchdown passes. Compared to Eli before his light went on, Jones’ light isn’t even plugged in and he’s sticking a fork in the socket.
im not sold on Jones but have to ask. Where is Jones Toomer, Shockey, and Burress?
Gano missed a 35 yarder that he makes in his sleep. Taylor checked into a run on the goal line that was clearly a mental error. 6-6 or 5-7, but they should likely have 1 more win.
These aren’t a few calls here, a few breaks there.
The Giants should have beaten the Bills in Buffalo, a team that just outplayed the Eagles for 59 minutes in Philadelphia.
Team is not as far off as people would think, if the offense can get it together next season.
If Lamar Jackson doesn’t fumble, if the titans don’t get a pass interference on a game winning interception, if Washington doesn’t miss a field goal or get a penalty on the go ahead td in game 2 the Giants aren’t in the playoffs and Jones isn’t resigned.
We can do what ifs for every team in every year. It’s loser mentality.
First full season he was third in touchdown passes. Compared to Eli before his light went on, Jones’ light isn’t even plugged in and he’s sticking a fork in the socket.
im not sold on Jones but have to ask. Where is Jones Toomer, Shockey, and Burress?
You mean Shepard, Bellinger, and Golladay don't qualify?
I’m still somewhat numb after watching TDV the past two games. I had no idea he could be this good.
He has been very accurate, never fumbles when he is sacked, gets rid of the ball slightly faster than Jones, and is not afraid to throw the long ball, especially to Hyatt. Jones would practically ignore Hyatt and throw a bunch of 2 yard loss passes to Campbell instead. I cringe every time Jones gets sacked or takes off, expecting a fumble. Although I love the yards he gets, especially on 3rd downs.
But get this stat….Jones has thrown 55 more passes than TDV, but the latter has 7 TDs while Jones only has 2.
I have a good feeling TDV will improve in these last 5 games so I hope the conversation between our smart people this off-season includes TDV as next years’ starter no matter how much money Jones makes. If he is better, that should be the criteria, not how much money one makes. I hope that is it.
Gano missed a 35 yarder that he makes in his sleep. Taylor checked into a run on the goal line that was clearly a mental error. 6-6 or 5-7, but they should likely have 1 more win.
These aren’t a few calls here, a few breaks there.
The Giants should have beaten the Bills in Buffalo, a team that just outplayed the Eagles for 59 minutes in Philadelphia.
Team is not as far off as people would think, if the offense can get it together next season.
Correct
They have multiple All Pro caliber players on this team and several solid starters. It is the depth and OL that concern me the most
left 4-5 big plays on the field. The Giants should have been well over 24 points in this game. QB was a big reason they weren't. The Big Blue Banter went through this. He's a guy who may be good enough to be a back up. This team badly needs a real QB. Who cares if he's better than Jones or not. Jones sucks and is among the worst starters in the league.
Gano missed a 35 yarder that he makes in his sleep. Taylor checked into a run on the goal line that was clearly a mental error. 6-6 or 5-7, but they should likely have 1 more win.
These aren’t a few calls here, a few breaks there.
The Giants should have beaten the Bills in Buffalo, a team that just outplayed the Eagles for 59 minutes in Philadelphia.
Team is not as far off as people would think, if the offense can get it together next season.
You’re right. They aren’t far off. Just need a much better QB and a true #1
Jones threw double the amount of TD passes as games played as a rookie. He was then told to play pussy football for 2 seasons, and was starting to show some things again with Daboll, which restarted his career a bit.
The guy knows how to throw TD passes. He hasn't done enough of it obviously - everyone knows that.
But he didn't just wake up one day and say hey you know what I'm going to not throw TD passes today. The team was abysmal and he had zero time to throw the ball the first month, aside from one game.
Stop with this 'We should be 6-6!' talk. Just as we could have beaten Buffalo & the Jets, we could have EASILY lost to the Cards & Pats.
This times fucking infinity. Stop with the ridiculous bullshit coulda, shoulda, woulda. They didn’t win. Plain and goddamn simple.
Some people just refuse to see what’s right in fucking front of them. Ignorance personified. They’d be happy running it back the same, having the FO piss in their face and shout, “What a glorious rain shower!”
But, I'll say this - based on your thoughts with Jones, the Eagles could have done the same thing with Wentz. They didn't and it's paying off for them. You have to know when it's time to move on.
How dumb it is to keep reference the 2022 playoff game, Blake Bortles went toe to toe with Tom Brady and was a blown call away from the Super Bowl. He got one more year as the starter, fell on his face like Jones, and was replaced. He wasn’t even replaced by a first round pick.
Secondly, let's sum this up. We have 4 groups here (people who love Jones, people who think Jones could be good but we have ruined him, people who hate Jones, and people who don't see much of a difference between Jones and DeVito). Too many people are emotional. Facts have zero affect on those people so it isn't worth wasting time on them. On the flip side, too many people feel the need to change the mind of others and if you don't agree than you are wrong. Let's all step back from the keyboard and chill the fuck out. We're all passionate fans but these are all things we have no control over. And if you don't give a shit what I have to say then great too.
There, let's all get back to the arguing. Now that I wrote that, I miss the poster Mills Lane. Where has he been? In honor of him ... "Let's Get It On!"
line that’s thrown around by a few. It was historic because he ran for over 70 yards. Not because he threw for a historic amount of yards, or threw for a historic amount of touchdowns.
There was nothing Historic about the Giants Vikings playoff game
other than how bad the Vikings were.. Teams that bad don't typically make the playoffs or at least until we started having 7 teams per conference.. The very next game we played was against a legit playoff team and we got smacked around like little bitches and DJ played like a little bitch.. It wasn't just the OL, WR, it was also bad QB play.. in fact DJ's performance against the Eagles was worse than the assistant coach we put out there on week 18 when the Eagles desperately needed to win to hold on to first spot..
RE: There was nothing Historic about the Giants Vikings playoff game
other than how bad the Vikings were.. Teams that bad don't typically make the playoffs or at least until we started having 7 teams per conference.. The very next game we played was against a legit playoff team and we got smacked around like little bitches and DJ played like a little bitch.. It wasn't just the OL, WR, it was also bad QB play.. in fact DJ's performance against the Eagles was worse than the assistant coach we put out there on week 18 when the Eagles desperately needed to win to hold on to first spot..
The Vikings Playoff game was huge.
It led to a historic blunder by the Giants in giving Jones that contract.
You can make any performance historic if you move the
What about the year after where he ran for 136 yards and completed 70% of his passes? I’m sure nobody’s done that parameter before.
When the 49ers decided to bench Kaepernick I don’t recall any 49ers fans saying “wait a minute, what about his historic playoff game against Green Bay in 2013?”.
Jones is the only QB in NFL Playoff history to total at least 300 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, and 2 passing TDs in a game.
So, yes, it was historic. He's the only person to do it.
Because it’s a made up parameter. Why wasn’t the bar set at 350? Or 100 rushing yards?
Historic would be if he broke Kaepernicks playoff rushing record while throwing for 300 yards. There’s nothing historic about being the first to do parameters that are made up after the fact.
turning a game review thread into something about a player who has been on the IR for a month is pretty high up there. Will you guys ever give it a rest?
You CAN'T go forward with a QB whose had 2 neck injuries AND an ACL in the last 3 years. He's a ticking time bomb waiting to explode.
As a bridge QB next year (because of his contract), fine!
But if they were to pass on a "potentially" excellent QB to run it back out with Jones AND for the long haul, they won't be here very long!
Jones is the only QB in NFL Playoff history to total at least 300 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, and 2 passing TDs in a game.
So, yes, it was historic. He's the only person to do it.
Has there been another Giants QB in the modern era that has only thrown two touchdown passes in six starts?
Well first off it is basically 5 games, he was hurt early on against Vegas.
Eli Manning went through an 8 game stretch in 2007 where he threw 6 TDs.
So, yeah, Jones' start to the year was horrible. Perhaps you can go back and look at the film of the Dallas, Seattle, SF, and Miami games to see how the OL performed there and tell me who would do significantly better in those situations.
But I can't understand how there are still some fans who think that he's the long term answer and that he can still be a great QB. He is coming off his second neck injury AND a torn ACL.
I saw at least one post comparing him to Eli and Simms early in their career. Eli went to the playoffs 3 times in his first 5 seasons and won a Superbowl. Jones just finished his 5th season and there are still serious questions about his future and he is coming off his worst season.
QB is the most important position in the NFL and it's not often that teams are in range of drafting a potential franchise QB at the top of the draft. If the Giants feel like any of the three are franchise QB's and they can get them, even if it means trading up, then they shouldn't hesitate. Jones will only return because of his contract.
RE: I was a big Jones supporter coming into this season
But I can't understand how there are still some fans who think that he's the long term answer and that he can still be a great QB. He is coming off his second neck injury AND a torn ACL.
I saw at least one post comparing him to Eli and Simms early in their career. Eli went to the playoffs 3 times in his first 5 seasons and won a Superbowl. Jones just finished his 5th season and there are still serious questions about his future and he is coming off his worst season.
QB is the most important position in the NFL and it's not often that teams are in range of drafting a potential franchise QB at the top of the draft. If the Giants feel like any of the three are franchise QB's and they can get them, even if it means trading up, then they shouldn't hesitate. Jones will only return because of his contract.
-Daniel Jones: 21/27 – 217 yards / 0 TD – 0 INT / 100.2 RAT
Jones also added 41 rushing yards (not including the three kneel downs) just days after nobody knew if he would miss the game because of an ankle injury suffered last week. Mid-week, we were wondering if NYG would sign Brian Lewerke or Jake Fromm to backup Davis Webb. Now we look back and I think this was Jones’ top performance of the season considering the circumstances. We may see better statistical games from him, but he made multiple big time throws, took some of the biggest hits we have seen this year, and still made a huge difference on the ground. Prior to this game, I wrote down a list of things to look for. At the top? “How does Jones impact the game on a bad wheel?” Athletic quarterbacks are all the craze in the League now, everyone wants one. But what happens when they are nicked up? What happens when they age and lose some of their movement capability? Jones rose to the occasion and what he did post-Barkley injury on the touchdown scoring drive cannot go overlooked. 6/7 – 56 yards including two 3rd-down conversions and 25 yards rushing. What he did with what he had is exactly what good quarterbacks do: create more than the sum of parts. Big-time performance for Jones.
-Daniel Jones: 19/27 – 173 yards / 2 TD – 0 INT / 112.1 RAT
Jones added 10 yards on the ground not including his kneel downs. He lost a fumble on the last play of the first half which had no impact on the game. It was a clean performance by Jones that included a couple of big-time throws, some of which were on 3rd down. The overall comfort I see with him while making decisions and navigating the pocket continues to grow by the week. Having the rookie Wan’Dale Robinson back on the field did not look like a lot on paper, but when considering the lack of talent he has been working with at the receiver position, it brought Jones to a higher level. The quick maturation of the rookie tight end is bringing Jones to a higher level. Saquon Barkley staying on the field and playing the best we have seen him is bringing Jones to a higher level. All of that added up and his skill position talent is still bottom third in the league. What kind of level does Jones get to with another high-end receiver or two? It is all projection at this point, but we now have some more information on what happens here when this situation around him trends north.
-Daniel Jones: 20/37 – 196 yards / 0 TD – 1 INT / 57.9 RAT
Jones also added 79 yards on just 9 carries (8.8 per). He was under duress the entire night against a formidable DAL pass rush and behind a leaky offensive line, especially the right side. It can be very hard to accurately evaluate a performance like this one. Listen to any quarterback talk about Jones and they will tell you it is almost impossible to play a normal version of the position in that kind of environment. If anything, I actually put this game in the “positive pile” when thinking about where his status will reside in January. Jones made a few tough throws, he had receivers drop multiple balls, and the DAL secondary was on point. Jones’ scrambling was 90% of the Giants offensive success. His accuracy was there, the juice on the ball was there, and his decision-making was there. Unfortunately, he is throwing to JV receivers behind a freshman-team offensive line.
-Daniel Jones: 19/30 – 202 yards / 1 TD – 0 INT / 94.0 RAT
The most important stat from Jones came on the ground. He ran for 107 yards on 11 carries and added another touchdown. It was his first ever 100+ yard performance and he is third to only Lamar Jackson and Justin Fields in rushing by a quarterback this season. Jones has 1,343 yards on the ground so far in his career. Eli Manning had under 600 over his career. The contrast in offensive style and possibilities with an athlete like this under center should not be overlooked when evaluating his play. Jones put this team on his shoulder and delivered. He had multiple passes dropped, including a touchdown. Game ball for a guy who stepped up the most when his team needed him the most. If you are looking for a negative, he did have two turnovers cancelled by JAC penalties that did not exactly impact the original result of the play.
other than how bad the Vikings were.. Teams that bad don't typically make the playoffs or at least until we started having 7 teams per conference.. The very next game we played was against a legit playoff team and we got smacked around like little bitches and DJ played like a little bitch.. It wasn't just the OL, WR, it was also bad QB play.. in fact DJ's performance against the Eagles was worse than the assistant coach we put out there on week 18 when the Eagles desperately needed to win to hold on to first spot..
The Vikings Playoff game was huge.
It led to a historic blunder by the Giants in giving Jones that contract.
This is what is relevant here. DJ is who he always was. A middling talent, no better than the top tier backups in the NFL. The issue is the judgment of Joe Schoen in paying him like an elite quarterback and committing nearly twenty percent of the 2024 cap to him. This was a galactic screwup for the ages, especially for a franchise trying to rebuild.
Hopefully he will acknowledge his mistake and pivot at hyper-speed. Maybe Tommy DeVito takes the heat off? Maybe Schoen will have another superb draft as he did in 2023 and successfully maneuver to secure the next franchise quarterback? We will know soon enough.
But if he runs DJ out again in 2024 with another scholarship year, and starts in with the "in denial" rationalizations and excuses to attempt to justify the stupidity of the contract, then we know our franchise will be at least another year away from hitting rock bottom.
And lastly - the regular season game against Minnesota:
QUARTERBACK
-Daniel Jones: 30/42 – 334 yards / 1 TD – 1 INT / 92.8 RAT
Jones added 34 yards on the ground and a successful two-point conversion attempt in a do-or-die situation in the fourth quarter, down two points. From a big picture perspective, this was the best I have seen Jones play all year. The 42 attempts were tied for the fourth-most of his career, second-most of the season. He had a stretch where he completed 22-of-24 passes. He gained a season-high 17 first downs via the air and added two more on the ground. On paper, this was a very good game by Jones. When I took a deeper look, I came away with the same impression.
Jones’ movement in the pocket was brilliant. His clock was spot on, his footwork while keeping his eyes downfield was clean, accuracy was a plus, and decision making was near-perfect. The one blemish was, of course, the fourth-quarter interception on the drive following MIN’s go-ahead touchdown. The ball was intercepted in the red zone, and it was a misplaced ball. Jones had two other bad throws. Nobody can demand perfection out of him, but when you see his stat line and add in the fact Saquon Barkley had another strong day, settling on just 20 points is a loss for the offense overall. While there were other issues stemming from the line, the Bellinger fumble, and the drop by Richie James, the interception was a big-time miss in a big-time situation. He also fumbled earlier in the game (did not result in a turnover) where his ball security technique was the main culprit. This game causes more confliction. For almost the entire game I was ready to say this was the best we have seen out of Jones all year when breaking all elements down. Then, the ill-timed interception. I see vast improvement across multiple components to the position, but once again he left me wanting more.
So we picked 4 games from ‘22 regular season…? What did I miss? How about I pull Sy’s reviews on Jones in the Eagles home game? Or the Seattle game? Or the Lions game?
This shit is getting even weirder with the Jones supporters.
Jones is the only QB in NFL Playoff history to total at least 300 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, and 2 passing TDs in a game.
So, yes, it was historic. He's the only person to do it.
Why is it legitimate to extrapolate from this game? Jones had a good game. Awesome. Why is that significant?
So we would also classify Tommy DeVito's 7 TDs in his first two starts as historic, because no Giants QB had done it before.
Surprised we are not getting more articles on the historic proficiency of Tommy DeVito, and more analysis on why an undrafted rookie is putting up historically good performances with the same team Jones looked so bad with?
Jones couldn't score with a team that an undrafted rookie is putting up historic performances with? Huh?
the Minnesota performance was legit. He was stellar that day.
The problem is he only has a few games like that in five years.
That's the problem.
The rest of his games are less than ordinary or worse.
He actually had a few of those games in 2022.
We need to see that Jones was not very good from 19-21 despite a promising rookie year. Fine. But we also need to see that Jones was good in 2022. He didn't just have one good game. HE had numerous games where he outplayed pro bowl or very good QBs on the other side:
Ravens game
GB game
Jax game
Minny both games (only winning one but was terrific in both)
Add in some other great efforts (colts game) and we can stop saying annoying shit that Jones wasn't any good last year.
Just be honest about things. Fine the Jones bashers were right, but Jones played well in 2022. Don't call it anything else.
So we picked 4 games from ‘22 regular season…? What did I miss? How about I pull Sy’s reviews on Jones in the Eagles home game? Or the Seattle game? Or the Lions game?
This shit is getting even weirder with the Jones supporters.
There are a handful of people on this site who have completely stopped thinking at all and are just emotionally defending Jones like he is their son. This is so fucking weird.
This site was beside itself last year because how inept the offense was for long stretches. It's why ryan cherry-picked the game reviews.
Nope, that's actually not why I put those reviews on there.
I put them on there, because you and the usuals are saying things like "Jones doesn't know how to throw touchdowns" when there is much more to it than that.
the Minnesota performance was legit. He was stellar that day.
The problem is he only has a few games like that in five years.
That's the problem.
The rest of his games are less than ordinary or worse.
He actually had a few of those games in 2022.
We need to see that Jones was not very good from 19-21 despite a promising rookie year. Fine. But we also need to see that Jones was good in 2022. He didn't just have one good game. HE had numerous games where he outplayed pro bowl or very good QBs on the other side:
Ravens game
GB game
Jax game
Minny both games (only winning one but was terrific in both)
Add in some other great efforts (colts game) and we can stop saying annoying shit that Jones wasn't any good last year.
Just be honest about things. Fine the Jones bashers were right, but Jones played well in 2022. Don't call it anything else.
If we’re being honest about things, the four games not counting the playoff game Jones put up the following:
234 yards per game (boosted by 334 against the worst defense in the league), and 1 touchdown per game. If we take out Minnesota he was sub 200 yards a game. That’s mediocre.
Jones at his best is mediocre, unless like last year and his rookie year he’s not playing one of the worst defenses in the league.
This site was beside itself last year because how inept the offense was for long stretches. It's why ryan cherry-picked the game reviews.
Nope, that's actually not why I put those reviews on there.
I put them on there, because you and the usuals are saying things like "Jones doesn't know how to throw touchdowns" when there is much more to it than that.
Last I checked the goal is to score more points than the other team.
This site was beside itself last year because how inept the offense was for long stretches. It's why ryan cherry-picked the game reviews.
Nope, that's actually not why I put those reviews on there.
I put them on there, because you and the usuals are saying things like "Jones doesn't know how to throw touchdowns" when there is much more to it than that.
So we picked 4 games from ‘22 regular season…? What did I miss? How about I pull Sy’s reviews on Jones in the Eagles home game? Or the Seattle game? Or the Lions game?
This shit is getting even weirder with the Jones supporters.
There are a handful of people on this site who have completely stopped thinking at all and are just emotionally defending Jones like he is their son. This is so fucking weird.
This site was beside itself last year because how inept the offense was for long stretches. It's why ryan cherry-picked the game reviews.
I wasn't I said the was a nice pleasant surprise and the metrics back it up. It finished slightly above average.
Again, go back and tell me the 9-10 games DJ helped win last year weren't good performances. I said good, NOT GREAT.
By every metric he was a slightly above average QB last year. And look, I will say it now it appears he fooled people but a lot of you are acting like 2022 didn't happen. It did happen. It was a good season. Going back now and saying it wasn't good is just weird.
My impression of Daniel Jones' season is what I said in the Bugler thread. Daboll and Kafka got him to stop turning the ball over. They schemed things to keep things simple with a lot of RPO, which worked until they faced good defenses who simply didn't fall for the fakes.
It was competent. That's it.
It was no way, shape, or form good enough to defeat teams like the Eagles and Cowboys who continue to toy with Jones, the Giants OL, and targets.
You guys keep blaming the OL and the targets, but not the QB.
Meanwhile, two QBs come in this year for the Giants and there is no dropoff. That's the clue.
It's gotten to the point with the Jones club that they will never give up on him. It's become quasi-religious at this point. For reasons I will never understand.
They must have felt he could build on that. Hasn't happened. May not ever happen. I would plan accordingly, meaning keep an eye on the QB position via all avenues, as I have stated 100 times now.
I am not dug in at all on Jones which is weird for this place. I am more than willing to move on, I would have been willing to move on even if he was playing this season like last, I even said exactly that when he signed the contract.
I just can't listen to people say he sucked last year.
They must have felt he could build on that. Hasn't happened. May not ever happen. I would plan accordingly, meaning keep an eye on the QB position via all avenues, as I have stated 100 times now.
I am not dug in at all on Jones which is weird for this place. I am more than willing to move on, I would have been willing to move on even if he was playing this season like last, I even said exactly that when he signed the contract.
I just can't listen to people say he sucked last year.
I don't think I claimed he sucked last year.
I actually used to defend the heck out of him for the first few years, giving him the benefit of the doubt. Internet is forever. My words are still there.
But he has not elevated his game. He did great in the second half of the Cardinals, but we were scoreless in the first half. Against a bad football team. Jones didn't throw another TD in the other five games, even in garbage time. In the Raiders game, before he got hurt, he was missing throws and the team was scoreless again. Not the 49ers or Cowboys.
Where did I break my silence on Jones? When Taylor came in and the offense didn't look worse.
Eric, you aren't understanding what I'm saying, and that's fine.
Totally fine with moving on from Jones. I couldn't care less if they bring in someone else.
What I'm saying is that I think Jones can be a really good QB and that they could keep building up the team with Schoen's eye for talent, and that would be a fine option as well.
wasn't really you I was referring to with the he sucked line. I mean you didn't really give him credit, but ok. I wasn't calling you out there more the board.
It's just weird how quietly happy this place was with Jones in Early January 23. I don't remember many saying he still sucks. Oddly, many of those people didn't post at all after the WC win. Some people disappeared completely.
wasn't really you I was referring to with the he sucked line. I mean you didn't really give him credit, but ok. I wasn't calling you out there more the board.
It's just weird how quietly happy this place was with Jones in Early January 23. I don't remember many saying he still sucks. Oddly, many of those people didn't post at all after the WC win. Some people disappeared completely.
I am still here taking my lumps, lol.
There were definitely people on here that still had concerns in January of 23
To those who still have faith that Jones can turn it around and don't want to select a QB in this years draft, how do you feel now looking back knowing the Giants passed on Justin Herbert and Tua because of Jones? What if they pass on Maye and Daniels and they go on to becoming great QB's while Jones continues to disappoint?
wasn't really you I was referring to with the he sucked line. I mean you didn't really give him credit, but ok. I wasn't calling you out there more the board.
It's just weird how quietly happy this place was with Jones in Early January 23. I don't remember many saying he still sucks. Oddly, many of those people didn't post at all after the WC win. Some people disappeared completely.
I am still here taking my lumps, lol.
There were definitely people on here that still had concerns in January of 23
They were not unfounded. The optimism made sense too.
At this point nothing would shock me going forward.
To those who still have faith that Jones can turn it around and don't want to select a QB in this years draft, how do you feel now looking back knowing the Giants passed on Justin Herbert and Tua because of Jones? What if they pass on Maye and Daniels and they go on to becoming great QB's while Jones continues to disappoint?
No interest in Tua, and Herbert hasn't shown much lately. Last I checked Jones has a playoff win, Herbert doesn't. And Jones played similar, or even better, than Herbert did at times in 2022.
Herbert has a lot more talent than Jones, but if we are measuring both careers so far, Jones technically has more to show for it.
To those who still have faith that Jones can turn it around and don't want to select a QB in this years draft, how do you feel now looking back knowing the Giants passed on Justin Herbert and Tua because of Jones? What if they pass on Maye and Daniels and they go on to becoming great QB's while Jones continues to disappoint?
No interest in Tua, and Herbert hasn't shown much lately. Last I checked Jones has a playoff win, Herbert doesn't. And Jones played similar, or even better, than Herbert did at times in 2022.
Herbert has a lot more talent than Jones, but if we are measuring both careers so far, Jones technically has more to show for it.
Lmaaaooo. Herbert would have to take the next three years off for Jones to match his career TD numbers.
Last year Herbert went 68-4700-25-10. Herbert’s first two year surpass Jones’ 5 year touchdown total.
My impression of Daniel Jones' season is what I said in the Bugler thread. Daboll and Kafka got him to stop turning the ball over. They schemed things to keep things simple with a lot of RPO, which worked until they faced good defenses who simply didn't fall for the fakes.
It was competent. That's it.
It was no way, shape, or form good enough to defeat teams like the Eagles and Cowboys who continue to toy with Jones, the Giants OL, and targets.
You guys keep blaming the OL and the targets, but not the QB.
Meanwhile, two QBs come in this year for the Giants and there is no dropoff. That's the clue.
It's gotten to the point with the Jones club that they will never give up on him. It's become quasi-religious at this point. For reasons I will never understand.
Jones is a more visually attractive Dave Brown. He looks the part, but performs the same.
in the posts above, Herbert would be a Classic BBI Irony had he been drafted here.
If we had drafted the "force multiplier" Herbert to replace Jones and he failed to elevate the team (assuming the status quo of he not elevating SD/LA stayed in place), the very people who post hundreds of times a week about Jones being a terrible QB would be supporting Herbert.
Why? because they liked him coming out of college while Jones was a no star recruit who was never good at any level of football.
And those same posters would parrot the same arguments Jones supporters have made - that he needs better weapons. That the OL is shit, etc. And it would all likely be due to the premise that "their" choice at QB pre-draft that they posted longingly for would need to succeed to prove they were "right". It doesn't get any more deep than that.
They won't admit it - but we all know it is true. You can see in the way Herbert is defended. You can see it in the way Fields is talked about as just being in a bad situation.
-Daniel Jones: 21/27 – 217 yards / 0 TD – 0 INT / 100.2 RAT
Jones also added 41 rushing yards (not including the three kneel downs) just days after nobody knew if he would miss the game because of an ankle injury suffered last week. Mid-week, we were wondering if NYG would sign Brian Lewerke or Jake Fromm to backup Davis Webb. Now we look back and I think this was Jones’ top performance of the season considering the circumstances. We may see better statistical games from him, but he made multiple big time throws, took some of the biggest hits we have seen this year, and still made a huge difference on the ground. Prior to this game, I wrote down a list of things to look for. At the top? “How does Jones impact the game on a bad wheel?” Athletic quarterbacks are all the craze in the League now, everyone wants one. But what happens when they are nicked up? What happens when they age and lose some of their movement capability? Jones rose to the occasion and what he did post-Barkley injury on the touchdown scoring drive cannot go overlooked. 6/7 – 56 yards including two 3rd-down conversions and 25 yards rushing. What he did with what he had is exactly what good quarterbacks do: create more than the sum of parts. Big-time performance for Jones.
All these "great" games extrapolate into sub 200 yards passing per game and 12.75 passing TD's over 17 games....
Why are we magnetized to mediocrity?
Tommy DeVito's recent three game stretch projects to 34 passing TD's over 17 games... That's almost TRIPLE the TD production of those Jones games shared by Ryan.
in the posts above, Herbert would be a Classic BBI Irony had he been drafted here.
If we had drafted the "force multiplier" Herbert to replace Jones and he failed to elevate the team (assuming the status quo of he not elevating SD/LA stayed in place), the very people who post hundreds of times a week about Jones being a terrible QB would be supporting Herbert.
Why? because they liked him coming out of college while Jones was a no star recruit who was never good at any level of football.
And those same posters would parrot the same arguments Jones supporters have made - that he needs better weapons. That the OL is shit, etc. And it would all likely be due to the premise that "their" choice at QB pre-draft that they posted longingly for would need to succeed to prove they were "right". It doesn't get any more deep than that.
They won't admit it - but we all know it is true. You can see in the way Herbert is defended. You can see it in the way Fields is talked about as just being in a bad situation.
Justin Herbert throws touchdowns, that’s why he would be defended. He would be defended because he’s light years more talented as a quarterback.
There’s zero things Jones does better as a passer than Herbert.
in the posts above, Herbert would be a Classic BBI Irony had he been drafted here.
If we had drafted the "force multiplier" Herbert to replace Jones and he failed to elevate the team (assuming the status quo of he not elevating SD/LA stayed in place), the very people who post hundreds of times a week about Jones being a terrible QB would be supporting Herbert.
Why? because they liked him coming out of college while Jones was a no star recruit who was never good at any level of football.
And those same posters would parrot the same arguments Jones supporters have made - that he needs better weapons. That the OL is shit, etc. And it would all likely be due to the premise that "their" choice at QB pre-draft that they posted longingly for would need to succeed to prove they were "right". It doesn't get any more deep than that.
They won't admit it - but we all know it is true. You can see in the way Herbert is defended. You can see it in the way Fields is talked about as just being in a bad situation.
I so, SO effing agree with this FMIC. It's not even about DJ. It's about A) Over-emphasis by more than a few of one position on a shitty team - And B) It's about Armchair GM's in that group's absolute NEED for being right about who they like or talked up during a draft... lol.
ajr, you keep using TDs as a measure that somehow makes Herbert this amazing quarterback and way better than Jones.
I ask again - does Herbert have a playoff win or not? Has he played on better teams than Jones or not?
Jones has a road playoff win in much worse situations than Herbert has had.
Herbert's QBR in 2022: 60.2
Jones QBR in 2022: 62.9
Herbert is definitely playing better in 2023 than he did in 2022. But the team is 4-7 and going nowhere. He's had plenty of opportunities to win games for them this year and he has failed to do so.
Everyone knows that Herbert is more "talented" than Jones. He has not done anything in his career to back that up yet.
ajr, you keep using TDs as a measure that somehow makes Herbert this amazing quarterback and way better than Jones.
I ask again - does Herbert have a playoff win or not? Has he played on better teams than Jones or not?
Jones has a road playoff win in much worse situations than Herbert has had.
Herbert's QBR in 2022: 60.2
Jones QBR in 2022: 62.9
Herbert is definitely playing better in 2023 than he did in 2022. But the team is 4-7 and going nowhere. He's had plenty of opportunities to win games for them this year and he has failed to do so.
Everyone knows that Herbert is more "talented" than Jones. He has not done anything in his career to back that up yet.
Blake Bortles won two playoff games.
They’ve both only played small sample of playoff game. Besides that one single game what has Jones done that proves he “has more to show” for his career than Herbert?
Herbert has a lot more talent than Jones, but if we are measuring both careers so far, Jones technically has more to show for it.
This gets to the main crux of our differing views on DJ. I would argue that, physically, Jones actually isn't that far behind Herbert in talent - when you consider his legs as well, of course.
It's between the ears where the gap exists. And DJ does not have more to show for his career than Herbert, unless you want to claim that Nick Foles has more to show for his than Dan Marino.
But even by that logic, Mitch Trubisky, Tim Tebow, and Blake Bortles are all in the same rarified air as Daniel Jones, by your argument, and all would supposedly be better than Herbert.
Do you honestly believe that? Or could your pro-Jones bias be coloring your view?
in the posts above, Herbert would be a Classic BBI Irony had he been drafted here.
If we had drafted the "force multiplier" Herbert to replace Jones and he failed to elevate the team (assuming the status quo of he not elevating SD/LA stayed in place), the very people who post hundreds of times a week about Jones being a terrible QB would be supporting Herbert.
Why? because they liked him coming out of college while Jones was a no star recruit who was never good at any level of football.
And those same posters would parrot the same arguments Jones supporters have made - that he needs better weapons. That the OL is shit, etc. And it would all likely be due to the premise that "their" choice at QB pre-draft that they posted longingly for would need to succeed to prove they were "right". It doesn't get any more deep than that.
They won't admit it - but we all know it is true. You can see in the way Herbert is defended. You can see it in the way Fields is talked about as just being in a bad situation.
What is this, a joke?
Of course Herbert would be defended here. And he should be since he is a much better player at the QB position, and has been since he joined the league. It isn't close.
GD, ajr....you guys measure a QB by wins and losses, you've basically said that.
So I ask again, if Herbert is this amazing QB, why does he have more losses than wins?
And why does Jones not get the same benefit of the doubt in having bad coaching/bad teams?
I have never said that. I have consistently said that you measure teams by wins and losses. In fact, one of the main arguments I've had with Thegratefulhead on here is that his view of DJ (or any QB) is entirely focused on wins/losses, and not on the QB's actual performance. It's the sort of narrow viewpoint that would put Trent Dilfer and Jim McMahon into the top 50 QBs of all time.
Why does Jones get your benefit of the doubt but not Trubisky, Bortles, Tebow, etc.?
The two times Jones has been "successful" as an NFL QB, the coaches
were forced to simplify scheme to accommodate his inability to process the game how an NFL QB needs to process. IN 2019, Shurmur simplified the game to the point where Jones was literally reading only half the field on any given play. Last year, beyond his running stats, the offense was designed to simplify the game and reduce the mistakes Jones makes. The stats back this up. This year if you have access to the all 22, go watch how many times there are guys wide open down field in the games he started that he either doesn't see or doesn't throw to and goes to a check down option. That is a recipe for mediocrity at best in a league where winning at the highest level is predicated on explosive plays. He doesn't have the juice, and never has in those ways. Any other argument you're watching a different game.
There are still three more significant steps before reaching Acceptance. Otherwise known as reality.
It is sad that people on this site continue to believe that DJ is anything more than an above average backup level NFL quarterback talent. This was unequivocally self-evident before he was drafted, as Sy expertly warned us. But it is not unexpected. We are fans after all and some are more delusional than others in their love for this team. But at this point, anyone who thinks the players in that locker room still believe in Daniel Jones is out of their mind.
It will be utterly catastrophic, however, if Schoen and Mara are still in Denial. And Schoen's presser gave absolutely no comfort to anyone that they are anywhere close to Acceptance on this matter. This is scary stuff for those of us who are pining for the organization to get back to guiding the team to winning championships rather than defending moronic decisions with even worse decision.
-Daniel Jones: 21/27 – 217 yards / 0 TD – 0 INT / 100.2 RAT
Jones also added 41 rushing yards (not including the three kneel downs) just days after nobody knew if he would miss the game because of an ankle injury suffered last week. Mid-week, we were wondering if NYG would sign Brian Lewerke or Jake Fromm to backup Davis Webb. Now we look back and I think this was Jones’ top performance of the season considering the circumstances. We may see better statistical games from him, but he made multiple big time throws, took some of the biggest hits we have seen this year, and still made a huge difference on the ground. Prior to this game, I wrote down a list of things to look for. At the top? “How does Jones impact the game on a bad wheel?” Athletic quarterbacks are all the craze in the League now, everyone wants one. But what happens when they are nicked up? What happens when they age and lose some of their movement capability? Jones rose to the occasion and what he did post-Barkley injury on the touchdown scoring drive cannot go overlooked. 6/7 – 56 yards including two 3rd-down conversions and 25 yards rushing. What he did with what he had is exactly what good quarterbacks do: create more than the sum of parts. Big-time performance for Jones.
All these "great" games extrapolate into sub 200 yards passing per game and 12.75 passing TD's over 17 games....
Why are we magnetized to mediocrity?
Tommy DeVito's recent three game stretch projects to 34 passing TD's over 17 games... That's almost TRIPLE the TD production of those Jones games shared by Ryan.
OMG with this take... lol. Sometimes I think I'm taking crazy pills when I read this site. How did Mr. Devito look against Dallas?
"But but but Devito just beat 2 teams as bad as we are! And scored 24 points vs WFT that just traded away their 2 best defensive lineman! He must be the bestest NY Giants QB!! The stats say so!"
LOL
I think some people are in for a rude awakening on Mr. DeVito, and I LIKE him. He's a Giant, I root for the Giants players to be great and the Giants to win... ALWAYS. He is not the long term answer here at QB, except maybe as a backup. My opinion. I'd be happy to be very wrong.
THE reason we have Jones. Gettleman was absolutely going to draft Herbert that year, he personally saw a bunch of his games. But then, he went back to school for his senior year, and DG (having promised Mara he would draft Eli's successor), stupidly pivoted to Jones off an exhibition game viewing.
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
THE reason we have Jones. Gettleman was absolutely going to draft Herbert that year, he personally saw a bunch of his games. But then, he went back to school for his senior year, and DG (having promised Mara he would draft Eli's successor), stupidly pivoted to Jones off an exhibition game viewing.
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
These comparisons are always silly... I would love to have Herbert, but San Diego ain't exactly setting the world on fire right now. And that is a WAY better offensive roster than the NY Giants. We might be marginally better overall with Herbert at the helm, BUT AGAIN, this team IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. We don't beat Philly or Dallas just because we add Herbert. This team is just not good enough (yet). Herbert would be hurt as well if he started the year with the Giants.... assuming Thomas still gets hurt in the 1st game.
-Daniel Jones: 21/27 – 217 yards / 0 TD – 0 INT / 100.2 RAT
Jones also added 41 rushing yards (not including the three kneel downs) just days after nobody knew if he would miss the game because of an ankle injury suffered last week. Mid-week, we were wondering if NYG would sign Brian Lewerke or Jake Fromm to backup Davis Webb. Now we look back and I think this was Jones’ top performance of the season considering the circumstances. We may see better statistical games from him, but he made multiple big time throws, took some of the biggest hits we have seen this year, and still made a huge difference on the ground. Prior to this game, I wrote down a list of things to look for. At the top? “How does Jones impact the game on a bad wheel?” Athletic quarterbacks are all the craze in the League now, everyone wants one. But what happens when they are nicked up? What happens when they age and lose some of their movement capability? Jones rose to the occasion and what he did post-Barkley injury on the touchdown scoring drive cannot go overlooked. 6/7 – 56 yards including two 3rd-down conversions and 25 yards rushing. What he did with what he had is exactly what good quarterbacks do: create more than the sum of parts. Big-time performance for Jones.
All these "great" games extrapolate into sub 200 yards passing per game and 12.75 passing TD's over 17 games....
Why are we magnetized to mediocrity?
Tommy DeVito's recent three game stretch projects to 34 passing TD's over 17 games... That's almost TRIPLE the TD production of those Jones games shared by Ryan.
OMG with this take... lol. Sometimes I think I'm taking crazy pills when I read this site. How did Mr. Devito look against Dallas?
"But but but Devito just beat 2 teams as bad as we are! And scored 24 points vs WFT that just traded away their 2 best defensive lineman! He must be the bestest NY Giants QB!! The stats say so!"
LOL
I think some people are in for a rude awakening on Mr. DeVito, and I LIKE him. He's a Giant, I root for the Giants players to be great and the Giants to win... ALWAYS. He is not the long term answer here at QB, except maybe as a backup. My opinion. I'd be happy to be very wrong.
Do you spend as much time critiquing the opponent when you're defending DJ?
Do you look at the Minnesota playoff victory and acknowledge that despite their record, they had a negative point differential and an expected W/L below .500? Do you look at the Colts game from last year and consider that they were playing out the string with an off-the-couch interim HC at the helm?
Or does the opponent only matter when we need to make sure that DeVito's performance doesn't accidentally reflect poorly on DJ?
THE reason we have Jones. Gettleman was absolutely going to draft Herbert that year, he personally saw a bunch of his games. But then, he went back to school for his senior year, and DG (having promised Mara he would draft Eli's successor), stupidly pivoted to Jones off an exhibition game viewing.
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
THE reason we have Jones. Gettleman was absolutely going to draft Herbert that year, he personally saw a bunch of his games. But then, he went back to school for his senior year, and DG (having promised Mara he would draft Eli's successor), stupidly pivoted to Jones off an exhibition game viewing.
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
These comparisons are always silly... I would love to have Herbert, but San Diego ain't exactly setting the world on fire right now. And that is a WAY better offensive roster than the NY Giants. We might be marginally better overall with Herbert at the helm, BUT AGAIN, this team IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. We don't beat Philly or Dallas just because we add Herbert. This team is just not good enough (yet). Herbert would be hurt as well if he started the year with the Giants.... assuming Thomas still gets hurt in the 1st game.
What about the Chargers' offensive roster is better than the Giants' offensive roster right now besides the QB and one WR (Keenan Allen)? Their best offensive weapon is Ekeler, is he materially better than Barkley? Their best lineman is Slater, is he materially better than Thomas?
And the part that I feel gets ignored is how much impact the QB has on anyone's perception of his supporting cast. None of the Chargers' offensive weapons have ever played with a bad QB, so we can't necessarily determine how much their play is elevated by Herbert (and Rivers before him) vs. how much their play elevates their QB.
I'm reminded of how many players looked good playing with Eli only to go on to do nothing anywhere else in the league. How can you be certain that the Chargers' WAY better offensive roster isn't just a collection of Reuben Randle-esque players who are being buoyed by a superior QB?
I don't think you can (nor do I think that I can say with any certainty that the inverse is true).
Do you spend as much time critiquing the opponent when you're defending DJ?
Do you look at the Minnesota playoff victory and acknowledge that despite their record, they had a negative point differential and an expected W/L below .500? Do you look at the Colts game from last year and consider that they were playing out the string with an off-the-couch interim HC at the helm?
Or does the opponent only matter when we need to make sure that DeVito's performance doesn't accidentally reflect poorly on DJ?
I think you are missing my point. I look at the season as a whole last year, not just the playoff game. I saw a shitty team that I expected to win maybe 6-7 games actually win a playoff game. I knew we could not compete with Philly after that game, because our roster was not good enough. It's STILL not, and actually in some ways (OL) it's worse. A different QB doesn't change that. My point on DeVito is, it is 99.9% likely that he will only ever be a backup in this league. He's a great story, don't get me wrong. And I will love it if he turns out to be Tom Brady, believe me... lol. It's not going to happen. Did he do significantly better against WFT than DJ did before they traded their 2 best DL with a clear lame duck HC in place? I mean come on, you are a smart guy Dunk, I see it in the way you post. I just don't see how people are so focused on DJ as the root of all evil for this team. He's not. I don't see him as an elite QB by any means but I believe he is better than you and some others portray. He is a middle of the pack NFL starter IMV. And I fully believe that if Daboll plays the preseason differently and we make better roster decisions for the final 53 before that Dallas game, we are in a different place right now.
It is not a coincidence that many of the same people who would not move off of Dave Gettleman being a really good GM will not move off of Daniel Jones being a really good QB. After all, their idol fell in love with Jones, which must mean Jones is special.
Herbert's career record is 29-31. He lost the only playoff game he started. He has a ton of TD passes which is great.
I ask again - what has he done in his career that makes you think he's some stratospherically amazing QB?
Well
He began his career off with production we have never, ever seen before. So...
Sorry, Sy. Now QB talent is measured in team playoff wins. Jones has one more than Herbert, so Herbert is a disappointment.
Blake Bortles has two playoff wins and Jones one, so Bortles was a better QB than Jones.
Marino never won a Superbowl, so he has shown less for his career than did Nick Foles or Joe Flacco.
The contortions are spectacular!
You are being purposely obtuse here. I have not seen anyone say in any way shape or form the DJ is better than Herbert. I certainly never did. I don't think Ryan is saying that either (Maybe he is, I don't know). My point in responding to that Herbert post above is that of course he is better than DJ... only a fool would think otherwise. But that's not the question. They have the SAME number of wins right now as the Giants. Does anyone believe, the way this season progressed that we have more wins with Herbert behind center? I sure don't. This TEAM is not good enough. Especially on the OL. The OL has stabilized a bit sure, but it still sucks... and was epically bad after AT went down. And I blame a lot of that on what was done by coaching and FO before the season started.
You didn't say that. Another poster most certainly did.
I don't understand this idea of "why have a better QB if your team sucks anyway." Then why did we sign Jones to a $160M contract instead of letting him walk and drafting literally anyone else last year? As Devito is showing, literally anyone can win a few games with this team.
We spent a lot of money on a position many on this thread are arguing makes almost no difference. How was that not a terrible mistake by Schoen?
It's been a decade of horrible football, and I'm not sure I've been more depressed about the state of things than I am now. If the people in the building are saying the same positive things about Jones that we're reading from many on this board, what reason is there to trust their judgment?
Another year of Jones excuses and rationalizations is such an awful thought.
You didn't say that. Another poster most certainly did.
I don't understand this idea of "why have a better QB if your team sucks anyway." Then why did we sign Jones to a $160M contract instead of letting him walk and drafting literally anyone else last year? As Devito is showing, literally anyone can win a few games with this team.
We spent a lot of money on a position many on this thread are arguing makes almost no difference. How was that not a terrible mistake by Schoen?
DJ had just led a team that most people had as a bottom feeder in 2022 (rightfully so) to a playoff win. A team with a bottom of the league roster. The choice was either to franchise him or sign him. What were the options to sign in his stead? Sign Aaron Rodgers? Watson? That deal is not killing this team. What killed this team is is in no small part playing the starters together for 5 minutes out of 180 in the preseason. The decisions on the OL were disastrous.... keeping Lemieux and Peart. Not only keeping Peart, but then putting Ezeudu in his place after AT goes down (WTF??). Getting rid of Phillips and Feliciano. This team is broken, a QB does not magically fix this season, it just doesn't. I 100% feel that if we were more prepared to start the season overall and AT doesn't get hurt we are 100% in a better place right now, and fully in the playoff hunt. It's not such a wild take. DJ regressed instead of progressed because of the OL play in the first few games, my opinion. All of that said, if they have conviction on a guy when we pick it will be a criminal act if they don't take him. I don't see DJ here after 2024, but I guess it all depends on who is there when we select, and if Schoen/Daboll have actual conviction on them. I would guess if one of the top 3 are there when we pick, they take him regardless (as they probably should). Some people think DJ is better than you do, but so what? These constant raging arguments about just the QB areoff the rails. This team is (still) broken.
Shyster posted this in the Raanan thread. I have not seen these Mara quotes until today, this was after the Vikings win. The owner talking about their pending free agent:
Quote:
John Mara was stopped in the middle of this joyous Giants locker room and marveled at the way his franchise quarterback performed.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Now tell me, if you are Joe Schoen, what are you supposed to do? Your boss is publicly saying that Jones is a franchise QB. The negotiations didn't even begin, no wonder Jones held out for every penny.
Mara completely undercut Schoen. And I get most owners operate this way, but I find it incredibly idealistic to think Schoen was going to just let Jones walk and roll with Tyrod Taylor when his boss is saying that on the record.
I've gone back and fourth on Schoen, but I think he made the most of the shitty situation he was in. This team wasn't even supposed to be good last year. And I fully assume the same applied to Barkley. Link - ( New Window )
Shyster posted this in the Raanan thread. I have not seen these Mara quotes until today, this was after the Vikings win. The owner talking about their pending free agent:
Quote:
John Mara was stopped in the middle of this joyous Giants locker room and marveled at the way his franchise quarterback performed.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Now tell me, if you are Joe Schoen, what are you supposed to do? Your boss is publicly saying that Jones is a franchise QB. The negotiations didn't even begin, no wonder Jones held out for every penny.
Mara completely undercut Schoen. And I get most owners operate this way, but I find it incredibly idealistic to think Schoen was going to just let Jones walk and roll with Tyrod Taylor when his boss is saying that on the record.
I've gone back and fourth on Schoen, but I think he made the most of the shitty situation he was in. This team wasn't even supposed to be good last year. And I fully assume the same applied to Barkley. Link - ( New Window )
What was he supposed to do, you ask? Franchise tag. Period. Full stop. And crystal clear as day at the time. He tried to be cute with the DJ/Barkley strategy and it blew up in his face.
That is Schoen's fault. Mara will be Mara. But we were hoping that Schoen would save the owner from himself. Apparently he can't. He needs to pivot quickly now or end up in the dustbin with the rest of the sycophants...
He valued the QB over the RB. Opted for the tag for Barkley. If Jones was going to be back, he knew he needed Barkley as well.
The multi-year deal should have been given to the top five talent in the league at running back, ala the Jonathan Taylor contract, not the backup level talent at quarterback. A gargantuan error in judgement only surpassed by the gargantuan difference in committed dollars and cap space malfeasance.
Schoen screwed it up as badly as a GM could possibly screw this up....
I don't see him as an elite QB by any means but I believe he is better than you and some others portray. He is a middle of the pack NFL starter IMV.
IMO, the worst possible place you can be with your QB is middle of the pack. Even that fucking idiot Gettleman recognized that as "QB Hell."
Being middle of the pack at QB means you need everything else around that QB to be close to perfect in order to actually be a championship contender because you derive no advantage from the most important position. And it means that you are unlikely to bottom out severely enough to have a chance to upgrade your QB without a massive spend in resources (generally, draft capital that you need to either stock or reload the rest of your roster pipeline at all times).
And the teams that do manage to succeed with a middle of the pack QB always find that success to be short-lived. Build yourself a historically great defense and throw Trent Dilfer behind center and you win one Super Bowl and immediately look to upgrade the QB anyway - and let's not pretend that building that historically great defense is somehow easier than finding an elite QB. Get yourself that elite QB, and your championship window is probably close to a decade long, and you'll have the luxury of that QB covering up a lot of sins along the way (look at the Colts' roster that Peyton Manning was carrying and what came of it when he got hurt, or Brady's Patriots and how they've done since he left).
I have no interest in middle of the pack. If I can't have a better QB than middle of the pack, I'd rather have a worse one. I just don't want to be in the middle. It's the NFL version of sitting bitch in the backseat of your parents' station wagon.
I don't disagree with what you are saying there, but there are a couple of things I think I disagree with you on, or at least maybe we are just talking past each other on.
1) This roster is not close to good enough in my eyes. Regardless of who is behind center, we are not competing with Philly and Dallas with the current construction of this roster. Especially the OL. I want to do what SF did so we can be competitive no matter who is taking the snaps.
2) It's pretty clear I think DJ is better than you do, which is of course normal for a fan base. Everyone will have different perceptions of players, some higher than others. This roster has been bottom of the league since he has been drafted. What does he look like if we built this team the way San Fran did and he's behind center?
We have all seen that there are no guarantees with a highly drafted QB, so I don't think Schoen was crazy for choosing what he did with the DJ deal. It's easy to look back and say franchising was obvious, but it wasn't. DJ played well enough to take a shit roster to a playoff game, and he looked pretty good doing it, until we played a team that we STILL cannot compete with (Philly). And I put that blowout way more on the matchup of our OL vs the Philly front 7, much more than on DJ at least on offense. And I put the beginning of this year woes (and regression, really) on lack of preparation in preseason, some questionable roster moves, and losing the only really good offensive lineman we have in the first drive of the first game. It was all downhill after that, especially then losing Saquon, and then JMS.
1. Schoen would value Williams and Maye the most
2. Likely won’t mortgage a shitload of draft capital for them, but perhaps something like one of the 2nd rounders and a 2025 1st could be the ticket for NYG
3. Other QBs - would likely take a chance on someone in round 2 or round 3. Someone like McCarthy or Ewers
4. Would likely take BPA if Giants end up between 6-9 and that very well might be Edge or WR
5. Schoen ultimately may value “non QB” BPA at every pick if they can’t land Williams or Maye
6. Adding pro bowl talent with 2-3 picks and seeing if Jones can turn it around is a fine strategy if you can’t get the top QB prizes
7. Schoen and Daboll will not be fired if Jones is the QB next year and doesn’t turn it around
7. Schoen and Daboll will not be fired if Jones is the QB next year and doesn’t turn it around
If Joe & Dabs are dumb enough to hitch their ride to DJ going forward, neither of them are long for this organization provided winning is something that still matters. It might not to John, just as long as he can Jones is the first one in the building, calls John 'Mr. Mara', & do whatever else he does that casts a spell on that clown of an owner.
He had a good college career. Didn't throw many interceptions at all. Played in the big ten and was ranked 2nd best qb behind Stroud.
Devito has given fans a reason to watch the games. Given his head coach a guy who looks downfield first instead of looking at the chains first. Given his teammates some energy and spirit.
Time will tell what level of play Devito will ultimately achieve but I enjoy watching him play and I feel a sense of hope when he plays.
7. Schoen and Daboll will not be fired if Jones is the QB next year and doesn’t turn it around
If Joe & Dabs are dumb enough to hitch their ride to DJ going forward, neither of them are long for this organization provided winning is something that still matters. It might not to John, just as long as he can Jones is the first one in the building, calls John 'Mr. Mara', & do whatever else he does that casts a spell on that clown of an owner.
Forcing a QB pick at the top of the draft just because they fear they will be fired is about a triple worse outcome instead of taking BPA.
Passing on Jayden Daniels would be difficult to accept
The production is extraordinary on an ok LSU team. And if you watch his highlights you'll see him making big time throws, outrunning angles against SEC defenders, and protecting himself well enough that he has a clean jersey with 200 yards rushing.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
Not saying they should force a pick, but they need to get someone-be it the draft, FA, or hell even DeVito-who can play better than Jones, which-after this season-isn't that high of a bar. Hell, even DeVito-an undrafted UFA-has looked better than the guy who got the $140 dollar deal, a contract that looks worse & worse with every passing second.
He’s in another universe talent wise from Jones. The real stand out trait btw is his passing accuracy. Some absolute dimes, including long throws in every game I’ve watched.
If Schoen and the scouts support vote yes on Daniels , I support Trading away whatever it takes to get him on the team. If.
If he translates to the NFL, he’s a franchise changing player.
RE: Passing on Jayden Daniels would be difficult to accept
The production is extraordinary on an ok LSU team. And if you watch his highlights you'll see him making big time throws, outrunning angles against SEC defenders, and protecting himself well enough that he has a clean jersey with 200 yards rushing.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
Fine with me. There's nothing on the team I wouldn't trade, including Thibodeaux who I would consider our most valuable asset.
The actual good players on this team: Lawrence, Thomas, Thibodeaux, Hyatt, Banks, Okereke... we're just wasting their time and ours right now. Just throwing away years.
Fine with me. There's nothing on the team I wouldn't trade, including Thibodeaux who I would consider our most valuable asset.
The actual good players on this team: Lawrence, Thomas, Thibodeaux, Hyatt, Banks, Okereke... we're just wasting their time and ours right now. Just throwing away years.
You would trade away the most promising pass rusher we’ve had since Michael Strahan for a chance to draft Jayden Daniels?
Thrown for more yards, touchdowns, for a higher completion percentage, all while being in the league for one less year.
With a bum hand the last three weeks Herbert has tripled Jones 2023 touchdown output. Again; what has Jones shown more than Herbert?
And Herbert played half the year in 2022 with broken rib cartilage.
Imagine if the Giants and Chargers jobs were the only two job openings. If every coach were offered both jobs, is there any doubt they would all choose the Chargers job?
Fine with me. There's nothing on the team I wouldn't trade, including Thibodeaux who I would consider our most valuable asset.
The actual good players on this team: Lawrence, Thomas, Thibodeaux, Hyatt, Banks, Okereke... we're just wasting their time and ours right now. Just throwing away years.
You would trade away the most promising pass rusher we’ve had since Michael Strahan for a chance to draft Jayden Daniels?
I would. And I have nothing against Thibodeaux. One of the few good things on this team.
We've already wasted two years of having him on the cheap. I'm not itching to trade him - I'd rather trade picks - but we're wasting everyone's time with this zero at quarterback.
Herbert is a very talented QB, but why is that job so good aside from the QB? The Chargers are nowhere near the brand of the Giants. The Chargers don't even have a brand. You are stuck in a division with Reid/Mahomes and Payton. You have no home field advantage, the stadium will be filled with the opposing teams fans. And Dean Spanos is one of the worst owners in the sport.
That's an awful job, but yes you've got a QB. Good luck winning the division though. Eli was right to avoid that organization.
Herbert is a very talented QB, but why is that job so good aside from the QB? The Chargers are nowhere near the brand of the Giants. The Chargers don't even have a brand. You are stuck in a division with Reid/Mahomes and Payton. You have no home field advantage, the stadium will be filled with the opposing teams fans. And Dean Spanos is one of the worst owners in the sport.
That's an awful job, but yes you've got a QB. Good luck winning the division though. Eli was right to avoid that organization.
What does brand have to do with an opportunity to win? The Chargers job is "add water and stir" because of Herbert. And you don't have to win the division to make the playoffs.
The NYG job has to deal with Philly and Dallas and the team is without a QB.
Thrown for more yards, touchdowns, for a higher completion percentage, all while being in the league for one less year.
With a bum hand the last three weeks Herbert has tripled Jones 2023 touchdown output. Again; what has Jones shown more than Herbert?
And Herbert played half the year in 2022 with broken rib cartilage.
Imagine if the Giants and Chargers jobs were the only two job openings. If every coach were offered both jobs, is there any doubt they would all choose the Chargers job?
LOL, more excuses for Hebert. His stats should be significantly better, he's had two of the top of the WR's in the league, plus one of the best all around RB's in the league.
The injuries excuse is fucking bullshit. But not surprising that some posters would offer that up.
LOL, more excuses for Hebert. His stats should be significantly better, he's had two of the top of the WR's in the league, plus one of the best all around RB's in the league.
The injuries excuse is fucking bullshit. But not surprising that some posters would offer that up.
The word you are looking for is context, not excuses.
If a player suddenly struggles, doesn't it make sense to understand why?
That is similar to what Carolina offered. This gives the Giants the choice of Maye or Daniels. I'm assuming the Bears take Williams at 1.
Do you make this trade?
Absolutely zero reason to include Hyatt and that would be dumb. I would counter with 2024 2nd and the 2025 1st. It’s not going to cost that much to move up 5 spots. Including Hyatt would be a deal breaker for me. He has proven already that he may be able to be a game changing WR. Not a true #1 but he’s going to be good.
Terps, teams that are able to draft a player like Thibodeaux don’t just trade him away after 2 seasons.
And you are forgetting that we went to the playoffs and won a playoff game in Thibodeaux’s first season! Was that a “waste” of a season? Jesus.
This is beyond dumb. He’s been in the league for 2 years, this current season, which is not over by the way, has been pretty bad. The guy was a big reason we made the playoffs and now is playing his way into being an all pro.
That's similar to what the Panthers traded to move from 9 to 1 this year. The Giants would be moving to 2, so it probably would be less, but could be a similar jump.
That's similar to what the Panthers traded to move from 9 to 1 this year. The Giants would be moving to 2, so it probably would be less, but could be a similar jump.
And every Panthers fan that I know said that they have up too much.
The Panthers are being run by a horrible GM. They traded Moore but somehow didn’t trade Brian Burns for multiple 1st round picks when they were rebuilding.
I’m no longer of the opinion that you should mortgage the future or trade a ton of assets to get a QB if you are not a Super Bowl contender.
Keep building the team with smart picks. Build an awesome roster. Pivot to QB if it makes sense and when that needs to happen
My opinion, it would not make a ton of sense for Giants to trade their 2025 1st round pick and a lot of other assets for a QB. Would I hate it? No, I wouldn’t. But I’d prefer option B especially since we need a shit load more talent on this team than just an upgrade at QB.
LOL, more excuses for Hebert. His stats should be significantly better, he's had two of the top of the WR's in the league, plus one of the best all around RB's in the league.
The injuries excuse is fucking bullshit. But not surprising that some posters would offer that up.
The word you are looking for is context, not excuses.
If a player suddenly struggles, doesn't it make sense to understand why?
Well, he's never performed to the level that you've drooled about him, but that's not surprising. You've made excuses for him ever since he entered the league.
He's been good, no question. But the level you've been droning on about. He's not "elite". Never has been. But carry on...
Herbert is an awesome player. But things don’t seem to click when it matters the most with him. So far anyway. I’m not confident that they are going to win any game if it’s tied in the 4th or they are trailing by 3, etc.
I’m no longer of the opinion that you should mortgage the future or trade a ton of assets to get a QB if you are not a Super Bowl contender.
Keep building the team with smart picks. Build an awesome roster. Pivot to QB if it makes sense and when that needs to happen
My opinion, it would not make a ton of sense for Giants to trade their 2025 1st round pick and a lot of other assets for a QB. Would I hate it? No, I wouldn’t. But I’d prefer option B especially since we need a shit load more talent on this team than just an upgrade at QB.
This is why I think Jones got the deal. Build for a few years with Jones. Reassess the Jones deal in 2025 and either move on or restructure and continue to commit to him. I'm sure Schoen felt they could compete for a playoff spot while building the roster and he'd make the QB upgrade when the opportunity presented itself. Unfortunately, it's been the worst case scenario in year 1 of the deal.
Herbert is an awesome player. But things don’t seem to click when it matters the most with him. So far anyway. I’m not confident that they are going to win any game if it’s tied in the 4th or they are trailing by 3, etc.
I actually agree with the direction of this. I think it's actually more of a team issue - the D has failed too many times when it matters - but Herbert has missed opportunities at times to optimize situations. Instead of getting a TD, for example, the offense settles for a FG and then the D fails to hold.
They need to blow up that coaching staff. Spanos was too cheap to pay Payton last year, which is why he ended up in Denver because the Waltons aren't cheap.
I’m no longer of the opinion that you should mortgage the future or trade a ton of assets to get a QB if you are not a Super Bowl contender.
Keep building the team with smart picks. Build an awesome roster. Pivot to QB if it makes sense and when that needs to happen
My opinion, it would not make a ton of sense for Giants to trade their 2025 1st round pick and a lot of other assets for a QB. Would I hate it? No, I wouldn’t. But I’d prefer option B especially since we need a shit load more talent on this team than just an upgrade at QB.
This is why I think Jones got the deal. Build for a few years with Jones. Reassess the Jones deal in 2025 and either move on or restructure and continue to commit to him. I'm sure Schoen felt they could compete for a playoff spot while building the roster and he'd make the QB upgrade when the opportunity presented itself. Unfortunately, it's been the worst case scenario in year 1 of the deal.
I agree, and in that context it made a lot of (still makes a lot of) sense. Then they went and under-prepared for the season trying to keep people healthy (that clearly back-fired) and made some bad personnel decisions that basically tanked the year. Waller and Campbell end up as duds really, compared to what we all thought they would bring to the table. And Once Thomas was hurt we were toast, and really thanks to Ezeudu (and McGaughey?). I think they overvalued Ezeudu and McKethan, undervalued Philips (as swing tackle) and Feliciano (as Guard and Center depth). They stuck with Peart and Lemieux which was ridiculous, and then start Ezeudu at LT when Thomas goes down? I am still scratching my head at what the hell they were thinking.
Herbert is an awesome player. But things don’t seem to click when it matters the most with him. So far anyway. I’m not confident that they are going to win any game if it’s tied in the 4th or they are trailing by 3, etc.
I actually agree with the direction of this. I think it's actually more of a team issue - the D has failed too many times when it matters - but Herbert has missed opportunities at times to optimize situations. Instead of getting a TD, for example, the offense settles for a FG and then the D fails to hold.
They need to blow up that coaching staff. Spanos was too cheap to pay Payton last year, which is why he ended up in Denver because the Waltons aren't cheap.
So you admit that he's failed some - getting a FG instead of a TD - but that's somehow the fault of the coaching?
You've claimed for a while that he's "elite"; well, if he's that elite he can overcome the coaching. Especially when he's had TWO elite WR (at least most of the time) and elite RB.
But the coaching is why he's choked on the field and scored a FG instead of a TD. Right?
His team is currently 4-7. And he's made the playoffs a whopping ONE time. And it that game, his stats were 273 yards, 58 comp %, 1 TD and 84.7 rating. What is elite about any of those stats?
LOL, more excuses for Hebert. His stats should be significantly better, he's had two of the top of the WR's in the league, plus one of the best all around RB's in the league.
The injuries excuse is fucking bullshit. But not surprising that some posters would offer that up.
The word you are looking for is context, not excuses.
If a player suddenly struggles, doesn't it make sense to understand why?
Well, he's never performed to the level that you've drooled about him, but that's not surprising. You've made excuses for him ever since he entered the league.
He's been good, no question. But the level you've been droning on about. He's not "elite". Never has been. But carry on...
Terps, teams that are able to draft a player like Thibodeaux don’t just trade him away after 2 seasons.
And you are forgetting that we went to the playoffs and won a playoff game in Thibodeaux’s first season! Was that a “waste” of a season? Jesus.
This is beyond dumb. He’s been in the league for 2 years, this current season, which is not over by the way, has been pretty bad. The guy was a big reason we made the playoffs and now is playing his way into being an all pro.
You like calling everything you don't agree with dumb. The Giants do a lot of the things you want them to do, and the result is they are laughingstock.
It would be nice to see them try something else for once. We want them to compete for titles, and what they are doing is not working.
I'd rather not trade Thibodeaux, or Hyatt, or any other young player that could honestly be considered a good building block. But we're not going to compete for titles with Daniel Jones as the quarterback, and this draft may be the best shot in a couple years that we get to acquire an actual top shelf QB. And while those young players might be good building blocks, the house is built on sand until we have an actual quality QB. We haven't had good QB play since before Jones even got here.
Herbert is an awesome player. But things don’t seem to click when it matters the most with him. So far anyway. I’m not confident that they are going to win any game if it’s tied in the 4th or they are trailing by 3, etc.
I actually agree with the direction of this. I think it's actually more of a team issue - the D has failed too many times when it matters - but Herbert has missed opportunities at times to optimize situations. Instead of getting a TD, for example, the offense settles for a FG and then the D fails to hold.
They need to blow up that coaching staff. Spanos was too cheap to pay Payton last year, which is why he ended up in Denver because the Waltons aren't cheap.
So you admit that he's failed some - getting a FG instead of a TD - but that's somehow the fault of the coaching?
You've claimed for a while that he's "elite"; well, if he's that elite he can overcome the coaching. Especially when he's had TWO elite WR (at least most of the time) and elite RB.
But the coaching is why he's choked on the field and scored a FG instead of a TD. Right?
His team is currently 4-7. And he's made the playoffs a whopping ONE time. And it that game, his stats were 273 yards, 58 comp %, 1 TD and 84.7 rating. What is elite about any of those stats?
Let's be fair here. Those elite receivers have missed significant time. Williams has played 3 games this year.
Last year, he was hurt 3 different times causing him to miss games.
In games where Williams started and played the majority of the game, Herbert was 8-3 last year. In games where Williams was out, plus I'll add the week 10 K.C. game where he only played 6 snaps before getting hurt, and the week 18 game where he missed 2/3rds of the game after getting hurt again, the Chargers were 2-5, with wins against Atlanta and Arizona.
This year he's only played 3 games.
Last year Keenan Allen missed most of week 1 and week 7 (all but a third of the offensive snaps), and all of 7 other games. Allen missed all but about 3 quarters of football through week 10 (9 games) last year. Herbert had both Williams and Allen together and healthy for about 4 out of 18 games last year. Not to mention Herbert lost his starting left tackle; Slater missed all but 10 quarters of the season last year (hurt early third quarter of week 3), and Herbert suffered the cracked ribs early and later in the year suffered a shoulder injury that needed surgical repair after the season (that he played through).
All I'm saying is that if you're going to make the argument he's had the benefit of playing with these two elite WR weapons, then you might point to the time where he actually had both of them available, and the last time he did (2021, when both Allen and Williams played 16 games), the guy threw for 5,000 yards and 38 TDs.
Last year just about everything went wrong for the Chargers, and this year hasn't been a whole lot different for them. And if we want to talk about DJ suffering a bad OL, the Chargers line in 2022 was almost as bad as the Giants last year per ESPN team pass block win rate, 23rd in the NFL at 57%, compared to NYG 52%, and they were just as bad run blocking, both teams at 70%, tied for 26th. Meanwhile, this year Herbert has thrown for just over 2800 yards and a 20-6 TD-INT at 66.2%.
Herbert is a terrific QB. He's top 5 in QBR, top 10 in about every meaningful QB metric. The problems with the Chargers are multi-faceted but he's not one of them. They have poor depth and they have gotten crushed with injuries to very important players to their success over the last two seasons. Their defense is ranked near the bottom of he league. They've allowed the 8th most points and the 4th most yards, and the only teams that have allowed more yards have played one more game than them as they haven't had their bye yet (Commanders, Giants, Cardinals).
You can't pin the Chargers' struggles on Herbert.
RE: Passing on Jayden Daniels would be difficult to accept
The production is extraordinary on an ok LSU team. And if you watch his highlights you'll see him making big time throws, outrunning angles against SEC defenders, and protecting himself well enough that he has a clean jersey with 200 yards rushing.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
I think the trajectory he's on will send him to the Bears #1 overall.
The production is extraordinary on an ok LSU team. And if you watch his highlights you'll see him making big time throws, outrunning angles against SEC defenders, and protecting himself well enough that he has a clean jersey with 200 yards rushing.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
I think the trajectory he's on will send him to the Bears #1 overall.
That would shake Justin Fields free. I hope Schoen is all over that situation.
RE: Passing on Jayden Daniels would be difficult to accept
The production is extraordinary on an ok LSU team. And if you watch his highlights you'll see him making big time throws, outrunning angles against SEC defenders, and protecting himself well enough that he has a clean jersey with 200 yards rushing.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
Terps what do you see with his reads and progression? I have only seen Daniels for about 2 quarters. I did a quick read and it was mentioned he is a 1 read QB. Just like we have now. Cannot have that again.
From what I did see, I like Daniels. Good arm, seems accurate with touch(limited views by me). He did seem to scoot early.
Herbert is an awesome player. But things don’t seem to click when it matters the most with him. So far anyway. I’m not confident that they are going to win any game if it’s tied in the 4th or they are trailing by 3, etc.
I actually agree with the direction of this. I think it's actually more of a team issue - the D has failed too many times when it matters - but Herbert has missed opportunities at times to optimize situations. Instead of getting a TD, for example, the offense settles for a FG and then the D fails to hold.
They need to blow up that coaching staff. Spanos was too cheap to pay Payton last year, which is why he ended up in Denver because the Waltons aren't cheap.
So you admit that he's failed some - getting a FG instead of a TD - but that's somehow the fault of the coaching?
You've claimed for a while that he's "elite"; well, if he's that elite he can overcome the coaching. Especially when he's had TWO elite WR (at least most of the time) and elite RB.
But the coaching is why he's choked on the field and scored a FG instead of a TD. Right?
His team is currently 4-7. And he's made the playoffs a whopping ONE time. And it that game, his stats were 273 yards, 58 comp %, 1 TD and 84.7 rating. What is elite about any of those stats?
Let's be fair here. Those elite receivers have missed significant time. Williams has played 3 games this year.
Last year, he was hurt 3 different times causing him to miss games.
In games where Williams started and played the majority of the game, Herbert was 8-3 last year. In games where Williams was out, plus I'll add the week 10 K.C. game where he only played 6 snaps before getting hurt, and the week 18 game where he missed 2/3rds of the game after getting hurt again, the Chargers were 2-5, with wins against Atlanta and Arizona.
This year he's only played 3 games.
Last year Keenan Allen missed most of week 1 and week 7 (all but a third of the offensive snaps), and all of 7 other games. Allen missed all but about 3 quarters of football through week 10 (9 games) last year. Herbert had both Williams and Allen together and healthy for about 4 out of 18 games last year. Not to mention Herbert lost his starting left tackle; Slater missed all but 10 quarters of the season last year (hurt early third quarter of week 3), and Herbert suffered the cracked ribs early and later in the year suffered a shoulder injury that needed surgical repair after the season (that he played through).
All I'm saying is that if you're going to make the argument he's had the benefit of playing with these two elite WR weapons, then you might point to the time where he actually had both of them available, and the last time he did (2021, when both Allen and Williams played 16 games), the guy threw for 5,000 yards and 38 TDs.
Last year just about everything went wrong for the Chargers, and this year hasn't been a whole lot different for them. And if we want to talk about DJ suffering a bad OL, the Chargers line in 2022 was almost as bad as the Giants last year per ESPN team pass block win rate, 23rd in the NFL at 57%, compared to NYG 52%, and they were just as bad run blocking, both teams at 70%, tied for 26th. Meanwhile, this year Herbert has thrown for just over 2800 yards and a 20-6 TD-INT at 66.2%.
Herbert is a terrific QB. He's top 5 in QBR, top 10 in about every meaningful QB metric. The problems with the Chargers are multi-faceted but he's not one of them. They have poor depth and they have gotten crushed with injuries to very important players to their success over the last two seasons. Their defense is ranked near the bottom of he league. They've allowed the 8th most points and the 4th most yards, and the only teams that have allowed more yards have played one more game than them as they haven't had their bye yet (Commanders, Giants, Cardinals).
You can't pin the Chargers' struggles on Herbert.
That should be the last we hear from speedy on this topic.
That should be the last we hear from speedy on this topic.
Sadly, it won't be.
Watched the Chargers the other day wondering why they are 4-8. They are extremely mediocre.
Was not impressed at all by Herbert's performance, frankly.
And yet, somehow you can watch Daniel Jones and be impressed with his performance.
At a certain point, if this isn't parody, I have to wonder if one of us just doesn't know what should actually look impressive. I accept that it could be me.
That should be the last we hear from speedy on this topic.
Sadly, it won't be.
Watched the Chargers the other day wondering why they are 4-8. They are extremely mediocre.
Was not impressed at all by Herbert's performance, frankly.
And yet, somehow you can watch Daniel Jones and be impressed with his performance.
At a certain point, if this isn't parody, I have to wonder if one of us just doesn't know what should actually look impressive. I accept that it could be me.
Where did I say anything about Jones....I have been off Jones for quite a while.
Where did I say anything about Jones....I have been off Jones for quite a while.
You're right, that wasn't fair. My intent was more that "there are some fans who will claim that Herbert is unimpressive while they simultaneously express a strong level of admiration for Jones's level of play." We have posters on this very thread crying about making excuses for Herbert when they are the loudest voices making excuses for Jones (and they were the same fans who defended Gettleman tooth and nail, one of which ran away with his tail between his legs at the end of DG's tenure and only comes back occasionally to remind us all that he's still a blowhard).
I shouldn't have directed it as a response to your opinion in particular.
Herbert is a terrific QB. He's top 5 in QBR, top 10 in about every meaningful QB metric. The problems with the Chargers are multi-faceted but he's not one of them. They have poor depth and they have gotten crushed with injuries to very important players to their success over the last two seasons. Their defense is ranked near the bottom of he league. They've allowed the 8th most points and the 4th most yards, and the only teams that have allowed more yards have played one more game than them as they haven't had their bye yet (Commanders, Giants, Cardinals).
You can't pin the Chargers' struggles on Herbert.
Good stuff. I've provided a lot of this to speedy and his ilk in the past and it was dusted off as mere excuses.
I'm a declared card-carrying member of the JHFC. I think he's a tremendously gifted QB. But I have noticed some drop off in his game this year where he's missed some key plays. He's making the right decisions, but the execution has been off. Whether he's pressing or the line-up changes are creating issues, I do see some pullback.
Where did I say anything about Jones....I have been off Jones for quite a while.
You're right, that wasn't fair. My intent was more that "there are some fans who will claim that Herbert is unimpressive while they simultaneously express a strong level of admiration for Jones's level of play." We have posters on this very thread crying about making excuses for Herbert when they are the loudest voices making excuses for Jones (and they were the same fans who defended Gettleman tooth and nail, one of which ran away with his tail between his legs at the end of DG's tenure and only comes back occasionally to remind us all that he's still a blowhard).
I shouldn't have directed it as a response to your opinion in particular.
LMAO, that is literally the only reason I opened this thread and now I can't stop reading. It's like a throwback to BBI 2005, with slightly less curse words.
I have someone close to me that has an extremely good track record of identifying NFL QBs to the point where I think they could scout professionally. They LOVE DeVito and don't think him turning into a legit NFL starter is out of the question.
In addition to what Sy says about him, his biggest plus with DeVito is that the team seems to rally behind him and play for him.
Whatever "it" is, he has "it".
Most of these 3rd qb/project type guys who were transfers in college or played with lesser competition come in and you can immediately see the lack of confidence, fear or hesitation in their play. DeVito hasn't shown even a glimpse of that.
Maybe Dabes should of had him throw a couple of passes against the Jets?
No. You’re right.
Given the discussion around X and his contract, worth reading Sy’s praise of his performance. I didn’t even see the trickery X used to lure the QB into throwing an INT, so thanks for educating me.
Finally, A’Shawn’s steady performance sure suggests he should be one of the vets resigned this offseason.
You don’t really think Taylor is better than DJ do you?
I know you said “may” and that’s a bit of a disclaimer but was that just taking a shot at DJ or do you honestly think Taylor is better?
very informative / enjoyable read!
One very small, tiny quibble. I can't see Saquon Barkley adorned with one of your Dud awards. It seems like every time he rushed up the middle or to his left he was smashed at or behind the LOS. IMO, Justin Pugh is much more deserving.
Quote:
I don't sound so stupid saying Jones may be the third best QB on his own team?
You don’t really think Taylor is better than DJ do you?
I know you said “may” and that’s a bit of a disclaimer but was that just taking a shot at DJ or do you honestly think Taylor is better?
It's not clear to me. I wouldn't want either as my starter.
Quote:
In comment 16305818 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I don't sound so stupid saying Jones may be the third best QB on his own team?
You don’t really think Taylor is better than DJ do you?
I know you said “may” and that’s a bit of a disclaimer but was that just taking a shot at DJ or do you honestly think Taylor is better?
It's not clear to me. I wouldn't want either as my starter.
Fair enough.
I also would not be surprised to see Daboll go back to Taylor.
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
The entire Giants squad will look like a train wreck with DeVito serving as one of the front cars.
You still could, we haven’t seen Barkley yet
Quote:
Sy loves some Tommy D.
I have someone close to me that has an extremely good track record of identifying NFL QBs to the point where I think they could scout professionally. They LOVE DeVito and don't think him turning into a legit NFL starter is out of the question.
In addition to what Sy says about him, his biggest plus with DeVito is that the team seems to rally behind him and play for him.
DeVito appears to me to be the sort of player Parcells would back. The "Jersey Guy" moxie and not inconsiderable tools are tantalizing. If he can continue to progress in processing and reading Defenses, he looks like a keeper.
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Given the discussion around X and his contract, worth reading Sy’s praise of his performance. I didn’t even see the trickery X used to lure the QB into throwing an INT, so thanks for educating me.
Finally, A’Shawn’s steady performance sure suggests he should be one of the vets resigned this offseason.
Yep. Every time the unit starts to gel there is a new regime to reset everything.
very informative / enjoyable read!
One very small, tiny quibble. I can't see Saquon Barkley adorned with one of your Dud awards. It seems like every time he rushed up the middle or to his left he was smashed at or behind the LOS. IMO, Justin Pugh is much more deserving.
Yes why isn't Pugh a DUD? In fact he is the DUD
Quote:
I will be shocked if DeVito doesn't look like a train wreck against the Eagles.
I also would not be surprised to see Daboll go back to Taylor.
Taylor will just get hurt again, so Devito will get to play.
Does the improvement have more to do with Neal not being there (was he bad enough to bring down the whole unit?) or is it more do to with Thomas returning?
I love what DeVito is doing relative to what to expect from a third string QB. I'm rooting for him all the way. But, let's keep it in perspective. He benefitted from the Giants D producing 9 turnovers in the two games. And, despite them, the Giants nearly got tied by the Patriots (a missed easy FG) and were one Commanders' drive away from losing. It's not like the offense is running away with the games. Devito is throwing some nice balls and not turning the ball over. But, he's holding the ball way too long and taking a lot of sacks. Those sacks would show up a lot more if the Giants D wasn't producing the turnovers.
Funny how having Barkley playing helps an offense, not to mention a top level LT
Quote:
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Surely disconcerting about Daniel Jones lack of TD passes. It is what it is, and it ain't pretty. But it's also disconcerting that over his career Daniel Jones never had the opportunity to play with a bona-fide star like Tyreek Hill, CeeDee Lamb, A.J. Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, Davonte Smith, Travis Kelce or Jordan Jefferson, et. al. In the end, Daniel Jones may be a mediocrity (or worse), but he never threw to top shelf talent and he never stood behind an offensive line worthy of NFL status.
Quote:
In comment 16305858 M.S. said:
Quote:
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Surely disconcerting about Daniel Jones lack of TD passes. It is what it is, and it ain't pretty. But it's also disconcerting that over his career Daniel Jones never had the opportunity to play with a bona-fide star like Tyreek Hill, CeeDee Lamb, A.J. Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, Davonte Smith, Travis Kelce or Jordan Jefferson, et. al. In the end, Daniel Jones may be a mediocrity (or worse), but he never threw to top shelf talent and he never stood behind an offensive line worthy of NFL status.
Neither has Cj Stroud. Or Jordan Love. Or Lamar Jackson.
The fact that it’s even a discussion highlights the overpay on Jones. I understand all the dynamics of last offseason but man….
What really sucks is drafting a qb this year won’t fully benefit the salary cap having a qb on a rookie deal cause we’ll have a backup (Jones) making 40mm+
Oh well
Quote:
In comment 16305858 M.S. said:
Quote:
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Surely disconcerting about Daniel Jones lack of TD passes. It is what it is, and it ain't pretty. But it's also disconcerting that over his career Daniel Jones never had the opportunity to play with a bona-fide star like Tyreek Hill, CeeDee Lamb, A.J. Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, Davonte Smith, Travis Kelce or Jordan Jefferson, et. al. In the end, Daniel Jones may be a mediocrity (or worse), but he never threw to top shelf talent and he never stood behind an offensive line worthy of NFL status.
JFC
He averages 1 TD pass a game over 62 game period. That is 1970s stats. Any other mediocre starter over a decent stretch of time you can google will typically average at least 1.5 TD pass a game.
Daniel Jones is an all-time great for supporters making excuses.
Yep. I like DeVito, as I am a Syracuse fan and watched much of his play over the years. He has exceeded expectations for an UDFA 3rd string QB, but the hype has gotten out of control. He scored 1 TD against one of the worst teams in football, in which they started inside the opponent's 30 yard line. The hope is he can be a cheap, competent backup QB going forward. Anyone expecting more than that is delusional.
However, DeVito is not turning the ball over despite getting sacked 15 times in two games. He's also throwing TD passes.
No one is claiming DeVito is the answer.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
However, DeVito is not turning the ball over despite getting sacked 15 times in two games. He's also throwing TD passes.
And, he's also threatening defenses vertically down the field.
If you really break it down.
QB - we need a new one. It's not about Jones anymore. I dont care if he can, cant, we failed him, he failed us..... It's over. Move on. Let him backup next year. Teach the new QB the Giant way for all I care.
WR - We need a true number 1 WR for whoever the new QB is. I know Bryce Young has been awful - but you cant draft a QB and give him nothing to work with. And for the people say we dont know what we have at WR. yes we do. They're average to below average WRs who make a play once every 3-4 games. Its not good enough.
TE - Always hurt. Already over 30. Move on.
OL - we need some guards. We need to hope that Neal is finally healthy for a whole offseason and can quickly become a serviceable tackle. And for christ sakes get a good OL coach.
So many pieces missing. Get the QB. Whether its with the first round pick or trading back into the first. Find a WR. And lets get back to modern day football.
No one is claiming DeVito is the answer.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
I KNOW Jones can win in this league.
I SAW it.
There is nothing anyone can say that can change history.
He is done here and I expect his career to end soon.
He will get to start 2024 if healthy no matter who we draft.
I suspect he know he has to be. So,he will be.
I don't feel sorry for him because of the compensation.
The hand Jones was dealt by NYG leaves much to desire.
Is what it is.
Burried in this.
Sorry Terps, you havecevery right to repeat your opinions.
I got personal.
I was wrong.
No one is claiming DeVito is the answer.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
I can't reconcile my interpretation of the game with Sy's glowing review.
But ask yourself: How well did Eli Manning perform toward the end of his career with a non-existent O-line and no top-shelf wide receiver.
In the end, it is a lot easier for fans to just piss on Daniel Jones than to fully catalogue the utter stench of the franchise he has been a part of since 2019.
Saying a QB played the position fundamentally well FOR AN UNDRAFTED ROOKIE does not mean Sy is hyping him as a starter in the NFL. In fact, Sy goes onto talk about the need to see if DeVito can be an adequate back-up.
Quote:
claiming "hype" are not getting it.
No one is claiming DeVito is the answer.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
Go re-read the review on Devito's game. This post is not at all aligned with what was written. It was a glowing review for a kid in a game which the results were one TD on a short field created by the defense, sub 200 yards passing, where we scored tied for the lowest point output scored against the Pats all year. It was an ugly ugly win against a terrible team where the defense and specials played well but not nearly enough done on the offensive side.
I can't reconcile my interpretation of the game with Sy's glowing review.
How about a glowing review for an UNDRAFTED ROOKIE on a bad team with a bad offense?
Point to history where this has ever happened.
I also note multiple times DeVito is trying out for a backup job. Hardly over the top.
But ask yourself: How well did Eli Manning perform toward the end of his career with a non-existent O-line and no top-shelf wide receiver.
In the end, it is a lot easier for fans to just piss on Daniel Jones than to fully catalogue the utter stench of the franchise he has been a part of since 2019.
Eli had Odell.
Quote:
In comment 16305987 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
claiming "hype" are not getting it.
No one is claiming DeVito is the answer.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
Go re-read the review on Devito's game. This post is not at all aligned with what was written. It was a glowing review for a kid in a game which the results were one TD on a short field created by the defense, sub 200 yards passing, where we scored tied for the lowest point output scored against the Pats all year. It was an ugly ugly win against a terrible team where the defense and specials played well but not nearly enough done on the offensive side.
I can't reconcile my interpretation of the game with Sy's glowing review.
How about a glowing review for an UNDRAFTED ROOKIE on a bad team with a bad offense?
Point to history where this has ever happened.
I also note multiple times DeVito is trying out for a backup job. Hardly over the top.
Lol...DeVito's total QBR is 7.4. Time to size him up for the Yellow Jacket.
But ask yourself: How well did Eli Manning perform toward the end of his career with a non-existent O-line and no top-shelf wide receiver.
In the end, it is a lot easier for fans to just piss on Daniel Jones than to fully catalogue the utter stench of the franchise he has been a part of since 2019.
You don't need to have a "top-shelf" wide receiver to be successful in the NFL as a quarterback. An offensive line will be a tremendous help.
Piss on Daniel Jones? It's been five years. An undrafted rookie FA has seven TDs to Daniel's two in half the snaps.
Jones has thrown 38 TDs in four years. Do the math.
We're in a weird area with a group of Giants fans.
We're in a weird area with a group of Giants fans.
The 4th post of this thread, you claim DeVito is better than Jones. That isn't an "underhanded insult." More like direct. It's a ridiculous notion.
I am breaking down games and performances. Jones is not playing anymore again - he isn't even a thought. His memory is a fart in the wind until the offseason.
One thing I have noticed these past 2-3 years - and it is the world we live in since 2020 - is that everyone has their flag planted into the ground so deep - that ANY statement that MIGHT disagree with their notion is an immediate threat and causes some to actually appear offended.
Incredibly weird times.
Correct.
My statement stands.
Quote:
the problem here is anything positive written about other quarterbacks on the roster will be taken as underhanded insult to Daniel.
We're in a weird area with a group of Giants fans.
The 4th post of this thread, you claim DeVito is better than Jones. That isn't an "underhanded insult." More like direct. It's a ridiculous notion.
You are taking it as an insult. I am claiming it might be true.
Quote:
But ask yourself: How well did Eli Manning perform toward the end of his career with a non-existent O-line and no top-shelf wide receiver.
In the end, it is a lot easier for fans to just piss on Daniel Jones than to fully catalogue the utter stench of the franchise he has been a part of since 2019.
Eli had Odell.
OBJ missed almost all of 2017, was traded toward the end of 2018 and wasn’t there at all in 2019. Eli’s record wasn’t too pretty over this period.
No one’s nominating him for the HOF. He is deserving of some praise and recognition - he’s doing well and PROGRESSING. Lots to work on, everyone can see the issues; but it’s a good story and more than anyone could have expected. Let’s enjoy this, it’s a bright spot in what has been a bleak season. His performance has nothing to do with what anyone thinks about Daniel Jones; I really wish people would just assess Tommy Touchdown for what they see and not relative to their opinions of DJ.
No one is claiming DeVito is the answer.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
160 you shortchanged him 20 million.
People are so dug in.
Quote:
In comment 16306033 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
the problem here is anything positive written about other quarterbacks on the roster will be taken as underhanded insult to Daniel.
We're in a weird area with a group of Giants fans.
The 4th post of this thread, you claim DeVito is better than Jones. That isn't an "underhanded insult." More like direct. It's a ridiculous notion.
You are taking it as an insult. I am claiming it might be true.
Just last year Jones went 9-7-1 with a terrible OL and Hodgins as the best WR, and then won a playoff game. Wake me up when DeVito does that.
I like DeVito as the backup QB going forward. Jones will be gone due to the contract in '25, when they can get out of it.
Jones has had a ton of injuries. And made a ton of money. DeVito will be a career backup. My money is on DeVito.
Ryan Fitzpatrick had a longer career than Andrew Luck. Doesn't mean I think Fitzpatrick is a better QB
Eli had Odell.
OBJ missed almost all of 2017, was traded toward the end of 2018 and wasn’t there at all in 2019. Eli’s record wasn’t too pretty over this period.
Odell was traded in the offseason. The Giants were 5-11 in 2018 despite having a dynamic WR who had 1000 yards in only 12 games. Why was that? The QB couldn’t throw touchdowns. Odell was the best WR in the NFL from 2014-2016 and the Giants had one winning record. They were one of the worst scoring teams in the league in 2016 despite having a WR go for 1300 yards and 10 tds. Why? Because they were no longer getting elite QB play.
Quote:
I don't sound so stupid saying Jones may be the third best QB on his own team?
You still could, we haven’t seen Barkley yet
Quote:
1 pick away from being undrafted
Correct.
My statement stands.
I don't know for sure, Sy, but Tony Romo, Jeff Garcia, Kurt Warner, Warren Moon, and a few others might like to have a word with you.
Does the improvement have more to do with Neal not being there (was he bad enough to bring down the whole unit?) or is it more do to with Thomas returning?
The team gave up Nine Sacks against Wash and Six against the Pats... this can hardly be called improvement,
Quote:
To my untrained eye, needs to be weighed in the Bobby Johnson evaluation. They are getting better.
Given the discussion around X and his contract, worth reading Sy’s praise of his performance. I didn’t even see the trickery X used to lure the QB into throwing an INT, so thanks for educating me.
Finally, A’Shawn’s steady performance sure suggests he should be one of the vets resigned this offseason.
Yep. Every time the unit starts to gel there is a new regime to reset everything.
They O lines has gotten better, because, with the exception of Neal, they have not had injuries that forced changes since Ezeudu went out.
You can't just play your starters for a quarter and expect them to be game ready week 1. Hopefully the coaching staff takes that as a lesson learned for next year. I don't really give a crap about the injury angle either, Thomas got hurt in literally the first quarter of the first game. You can make an argument he wasn't game ready because of lack of playing in the preaseason.
That's actually a very fair question that I have posed many times the last several weeks - based on Schoen's financial commitment to Jones, why should we trust him to find a better solution to Jones?
I'll say this. I trust Daboll with QBs infinitely more than Schoen.
Quote:
he did not draft DeVito. Passed on him all 7 rounds. For those who believe DeVito is a better QB than Jones, why would you want Schoen sticking around to evaluate QBs this offseason when the Giants determine 1. whether they draft their next starting QB and 2. who that QB will be?
That's actually a very fair question that I have posed many times the last several weeks - based on Schoen's financial commitment to Jones, why should we trust him to find a better solution to Jones?
I'll say this. I trust Daboll with QBs infinitely more than Schoen.
I thought it was Mara's meddling that was at fault? You guys need to write up a QRG or something for this stuff for the rest of us.
I thought it was Mara's meddling that was at fault? You guys need to write up a QRG or something for this stuff for the rest of us.
Wrong poster. I totally blame Schoen for the signing of Jones. His actions speak very loudly pre and post signing.
He clearly and willingly hitched his wagon to Team Jones.
1) we had just made the PO's and DJ looked decent last year. It was not inconceivable to think he would improve with better talent around him and another year in the system
2) there weren't really awesome options to replace DJ
3) there rightly so was a "perception" factor - getting rid of your QB the year after he plays decently and wins a PO game is bad optics
4) the contract is essentially a 2 year deal; again, not exactly a long term anchor
in hindsight it looks bad but all things considered I don't think it disqualifies him to pick the next QB.
Never claimed DeVito will be a starter.
I'm claiming that Daniel Jones isn't.
I think I've been clear on this.
The longer the organization sticks with Jones, the longer we'll be a third-place team in the NFC East.
And it proves the point that Daboll is capable of coaching up any quarterback to their ceiling - a much needed reaffirmation of the astonishing results he got last year from DJ until the league figured out how to defend against the "remedial scheme".
As you mention, the next month will determine whether DeVito can be the third string backup next year behind whomever they draft in April and a lame duck DJ running out the final year of his scholarship program. I am optimistic that DeVito will meet that threshold and be the third guy in the quarterback room. I originally thought DeVito's ceiling was Jake Fromm. But after the last several games, he has me now thinking that his ceiling might be more like Taylor Heinicke? Perhaps Case Keenum? Any of which would be a much needed pleasant surprise in this season of despair.
Thanks again for your many contributions to this site. It is the best of BBI and very much appreciated!
Daboll is the developer and builds game plans to fit the QB's skills. Josh Allen doesn't mention Brandon Beane for his success. But he has mentioned Brian Daboll.
Do you really think DeVito would have performed even marginally better than Jones given the unprecedentedly terrible O-line play in the first part of this year? I know the mantra that good qbs can compensate for poor O-lines. Go rewatch the games.
I ain't no Jones apologist. I'd like to think I'm a realist and I really hope Giants identify and draft a quarterback with the potential to be the One, if for no other reason than there's too much risk in Jones' injury history But the notion that there's no difference between DeVito and Jones is just one other end of the Daniel Jones Derangement Syndrome.
The numbers speak for themselves. The rest is bullshit.
The funny thing was - remember how Webb looked against them last year? The Eagles needed to win that game too.
1) we had just made the PO's and DJ looked decent last year. It was not inconceivable to think he would improve with better talent around him and another year in the system
2) there weren't really awesome options to replace DJ
3) there rightly so was a "perception" factor - getting rid of your QB the year after he plays decently and wins a PO game is bad optics
4) the contract is essentially a 2 year deal; again, not exactly a long term anchor
in hindsight it looks bad but all things considered I don't think it disqualifies him to pick the next QB.
I get the idea to keep Jones after 2022. But Jones's output wasn't prolific. It was solid and he should be recognized for making plays, especially with his legs.
But the much better solution was the FT or TT. Make Jones prove that 2022 wasn't a fluke or an outlier.
Quote:
Daboll and schoen are evaluating QBs together.
Daboll is the developer and builds game plans to fit the QB's skills. Josh Allen doesn't mention Brandon Beane for his success. But he has mentioned Brian Daboll.
Yes, but it sounds like the suggestion is Schoen is going to pick a QB and Daboll just has to cook the meal. I have no reason to believe that's the dynamic. Feels foolish to think Daboll won't have a significant say on this.
The only problem I have in the review is the insinuation that the coaches have sured up the offensive side of the ball.
This teams offense has been pathetic from week one. Playcalling and execution continue to be massive problems. That has to fall on the coaching staff.
and yes, FT or TT would have been better... though these used one of them on SB so presumably that factored into the thinking. Honestly, my guess is they truly thought with better talent and another year in the system, DJ would have improved to the point where his contract was reasonable.
It turns out they were wrong and now we need to get out from under it. But i understand the thinking going into the contract negotiations.
Quote:
In comment 16305858 M.S. said:
Quote:
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Surely disconcerting about Daniel Jones lack of TD passes. It is what it is, and it ain't pretty. But it's also disconcerting that over his career Daniel Jones never had the opportunity to play with a bona-fide star like Tyreek Hill, CeeDee Lamb, A.J. Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, Davonte Smith, Travis Kelce or Jordan Jefferson, et. al. In the end, Daniel Jones may be a mediocrity (or worse), but he never threw to top shelf talent and he never stood behind an offensive line worthy of NFL status.
He's simultaneously played behind the worst OL + the worst group of skill players in the league. Some QBs will thrive with good OL/bad skill or bad OL/good skill, but you aren't doing jack shit in the NFL with bad OL/bad skill.
Saying a QB played the position fundamentally well FOR AN UNDRAFTED ROOKIE does not mean Sy is hyping him as a starter in the NFL. In fact, Sy goes onto talk about the need to see if DeVito can be an adequate back-up.
Yes, but it sounds like the suggestion is Schoen is going to pick a QB and Daboll just has to cook the meal. I have no reason to believe that's the dynamic. Feels foolish to think Daboll won't have a significant say on this.
I am not suggesting that. I'm sure Daboll will be part of the process. But I doubt he would have any final say.
Let's game out a hypothetical. If Schoen and Mara really like Maye because of his physical metrics and personality to fit NY (which we know is important to Mara, and Schoen mentioned the NY factor yesterday), but Daboll really likes Daniels, do you think Daboll gets Daniels?
I don't.
Regardless, the next few games will be the real test for Devito's staying power in the league. If he looks competent, he could be a solid backup in the NFL for a long time. If he looks awful, he'll go back to a 3rd stringer/fringe 2nd stringer.
As to Jones, how many of Devito's sacks do you think would have been fumbles with Jones? Probably a lot of them.
Regardless, the next few games will be the real test for Devito's staying power in the league. If he looks competent, he could be a solid backup in the NFL for a long time. If he looks awful, he'll go back to a 3rd stringer/fringe 2nd stringer.
As to Jones, how many of Devito's sacks do you think would have been fumbles with Jones? Probably a lot of them.
Sorry, that should say "the effect good QB play has on an offensive line." Stupid iPhone
We're in a weird area with a group of Giants fans.
There is an absolute cult-like following that has arisen around Daniel Jones on this site. If you praise anyone not named Daniel Jones, no matter how slightly, they flood out of the woodwork and call you a hater and a bad fan.
If Jones had a microphone Infront of him and said "DeVito is a usurper and must be dealt with" I would actually worry that some on this board would be heading to Tommy's house almost immediately.
Wouldn’t that be some shit.
Wouldn’t that be some shit.
Highly doubtful, but Devito is a nice story in a lost season
We're in a weird area with a group of Giants fans.
Personally, I don't care if Jones is insulted. I know he's not the answer. The difference though is that I don't feel the need to turn this into a debate of Jones vs Taylor or Devito. I don't see it as apples to apples though some will insist that it is. But the bottom line is the guy (Jones) has had YEARS to prove that he is the guy and has not shown nearly enough.
Last year, by all accounts the best year of Jones career, Jones had 11 games sub -200 yds . He had 7 games of 1 TD and and an additional 6 games with O TDs.
He had 7 games with both sub 200 yds and 0-1 TDs.
Ill just point out this does not include an additional 4 games where he threw for 200-228 yds and 0-1 TDs.
And I cant go through every game but there was a game like Washington on SNF where Jones put up 160 yds 35 rush 0 TDs and the Giants won 20-12 with just 13 pts of offense on a defense TD by Thibodeaux and the D got a second TO.
Thats in his best year of his career
No one is claiming DeVito is the answer.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
This...and I don't think its outrageous to say Jones is the 3rd best QB on this roster. But the fact that its debatable shows you how outrageous that contract is/.
The numbers speak for themselves. The rest is bullshit.
Career high 6.8 YPA. Yeesh
Quote:
Yes, but it sounds like the suggestion is Schoen is going to pick a QB and Daboll just has to cook the meal. I have no reason to believe that's the dynamic. Feels foolish to think Daboll won't have a significant say on this.
I am not suggesting that. I'm sure Daboll will be part of the process. But I doubt he would have any final say.
Let's game out a hypothetical. If Schoen and Mara really like Maye because of his physical metrics and personality to fit NY (which we know is important to Mara, and Schoen mentioned the NY factor yesterday), but Daboll really likes Daniels, do you think Daboll gets Daniels?
I don't.
There is no effing way on Earth that Jones gets that contract if Daboll doesn't want him to get it - does not feel he will improve. bw you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Josh Allen became Josh Allen in part because of Daboll, as you said, not because of Beane. Jones played better last year because of Daboll(and Tierney). If Daboll said to Schoen that DJ is mediocre and not worth 5 years $160 mill, Jones isn't getting that contract. There is no ay Schoen does that to Daboll.
You may be correct that if the Giants go QB and can get either of Maye or Daniels they go Maye. But I absolutely guarantee you that if Daboll tells Mara and Schoen that Daniels is the better QB andshows/explains why he is, Daniels will be the pick. If it is a "tie" (ability and developmentally) between the two and Schoen and Mara would rather Maye, Daboll will go with it because Schoen will show Daboll why Maye is the better choice for NYC area.
This isn't George Young telling Bill Parcells what players he will get anymore. In this case, the GM and HC are tied together and will work through their difference.
IMHO John Mara may be a tie breaker on this choice more than an instigator.
Quote:
I will be shocked if DeVito doesn't look like a train wreck against the Eagles.
The funny thing was - remember how Webb looked against them last year? The Eagles needed to win that game too.
This was exactly my thought as well. DeVito is a no lose call option at this point. If he is bad, who cares. Losses are good for draft position. But if he is good, that will not only give us a solid third guy in the quarterback room next year, but it will reaffirm Daboll's capacity to elevate quarterback talent. Which will be confidence inspiring when the much anticipated successor arrives next spring...
After last year I was under the same misconception about Jones that I think Schoen and Daboll were - they simplified the offense enough and added enough designed runs that they could make Jones a productive NFL QB. As we saw in the second half of last year, once defenses made Jones stand in the pocket, the offense completely dried up. Yeah he had good games against the Colts and Vikings. If you want to know how hard it is for a QB to have a good day against the Vikings 2022 defense, go look at what Mac Jones did to them (spoiler alert - he shredded them).
There were no good QB options out there so Schoen rolled the dice that they could continue to make progress with Jones to have him play at least passable for this year and next. The gamble did not pay off. The stats Jones put up in 2022 are his NFL ceiling. It was a mistake, but there were a lot of factors contributing to that mistake.
I trust Schoen and Daboll to get a QB this year and grow him into a productive NFL starter, as well as to continue to grow Devito to hopefully be a solid backup. I also trust they will learn from the contract mistake they made with Jones.
Jones is done with the Giants after next year. A concussion, two serious neck injuries, and now a torn ACL mean he will be released in about 15 months, albeit with a $22M cap hit. He'd have to be a consensus top 10 QB for that not to be true. His running also makes it more likely that he will suffer another concussion or neck injury. And I say all that as someone who likes Jones more than most here, even though I was totally opposed to drafting him at #6. But his play was never remotely good enough to warrant the contract he received.
After Jones is released, another team might sign him as a "bridge starting QB" for a year or two until they find a better option. After that, he will be a high-end backup or "spot starter," which is fine.
Last year, by all accounts the best year of Jones career, Jones had 11 games sub -200 yds . He had 7 games of 1 TD and and an additional 6 games with O TDs.
He had 7 games with both sub 200 yds and 0-1 TDs.
Ill just point out this does not include an additional 4 games where he threw for 200-228 yds and 0-1 TDs.
And I cant go through every game but there was a game like Washington on SNF where Jones put up 160 yds 35 rush 0 TDs and the Giants won 20-12 with just 13 pts of offense on a defense TD by Thibodeaux and the D got a second TO.
Thats in his best year of his career
Who cares? That post was not about Jones. I just can't get my head around feeling good about this game. My takeway was very negative on the offensive side despite a few throws I did really like. Even if it was a rookie, the outcome was flat out ugly. Overall, we barely beat a 2 win team despite strong defensive play, on account of the offense.
I get it, a rookie without expectations. Did he show some good things? Sure. At the end of the day, I just find it hard to feel warm and fizzy about this:
Fumble (on handoff from QB)
Punt
Punt
Punt
Punt
TD (short field -- 26 yards after INT)
Punt
....
Punt
Punt
FG (short field -- 18 yards after INT)
Punt
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Every NFL QB is talented. Pull any of them out of the context of the NFL and place them them among the general population and they'll be some of the greatest athletes most people have encountered, even the mediocre QBs.
The margins that differentiate a star franchise QB from a JAG backup QB are really thin. We're talking about a quarter-second difference in decision making, half that in terms of difference in release time, etc.
That those margins are as thin as they are is what allows a meh QB to occasionally look like a star franchise QB. Blake Bortles, for example, would never be viewed by history as a franchise QB, but he was able to replicate one for a short stretch.
The same thing tends to happen with DJ, IMO. He absolutely has enough arm. He absolutely has (or had, TBD on the injury front) the wheels to be a weapon on the ground. If you were building a prototype QB, strictly from a physical standpoint, I can understand why a lot of fans would see DJ fitting the description.
But it seems that DJ is a hair too slow here and there and it adds up. We're talking tenths of seconds here. Do you think you could spot the difference between 2.4 seconds and 2.7 seconds? I don't think I could. But I've looked at the numbers enough to realize that 2.4 seconds will likely be a completion with YAC, and 2.7 seconds will likely be a sack, with the blame pinned on the OL.
If you're expecting to see throws sprayed randomly around the field in order to identify the difference between a star and a JAG, you're not going to see it. It won't be that obvious or easily identifiable. But the results, over time, do bear themselves out, IMO.
He can zip it when he needs to and he sure can let it fly deep.
There is no doubt in my mind that he reads quicker than Jones and still will get better.
I have now firmly joined the Darkside, and feel it is time for a new QB. I am also pretty sure Schoen isn't out scouting QBs for his health and every game DeVito looks better than Jones is another step toward a new QB.
I am glad you are the scout, because I thought the oline was awful again. Just inconsistent run blocking and too many free tacklers allowed in the backfield. Absolutely Pugh is not stout enough at the POA. Looks to be only 280 lbs. His technique looks solid, but he is just not strong enough inside.
But yeah the Giants don't have a viable starter. If I were the GM I'd draft two QBs in April.
Wouldn’t that be some shit.
The Eagles will humiliate the Giants in the first game and then decide whether or not they want to humiliate the Giants in the second game. DeVito is sitting in the front car of an impending train wreck.
Quote:
In comment 16305879 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16305858 M.S. said:
Quote:
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Surely disconcerting about Daniel Jones lack of TD passes. It is what it is, and it ain't pretty. But it's also disconcerting that over his career Daniel Jones never had the opportunity to play with a bona-fide star like Tyreek Hill, CeeDee Lamb, A.J. Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, Davonte Smith, Travis Kelce or Jordan Jefferson, et. al. In the end, Daniel Jones may be a mediocrity (or worse), but he never threw to top shelf talent and he never stood behind an offensive line worthy of NFL status.
He's simultaneously played behind the worst OL + the worst group of skill players in the league. Some QBs will thrive with good OL/bad skill or bad OL/good skill, but you aren't doing jack shit in the NFL with bad OL/bad skill.
For noticing this you get called a cult member.
Unfuckingbelievable
Quote:
In comment 16305935 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 16305879 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16305858 M.S. said:
Quote:
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Talent? Are we sure about that? I felt the word Go Terps used yesterday describing the NYG offense was perfect. "Remedial".... it worked because it kept things simple for Daniel. When he is asked to do more, he can't handle it.
I understand I keep harping on it, and it is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but Daniel Jones has a problem with the end zone. He can't seem to reach it. Scoring is kind of important to a QB. Dave Brown had the same problem.
Surely disconcerting about Daniel Jones lack of TD passes. It is what it is, and it ain't pretty. But it's also disconcerting that over his career Daniel Jones never had the opportunity to play with a bona-fide star like Tyreek Hill, CeeDee Lamb, A.J. Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, Davonte Smith, Travis Kelce or Jordan Jefferson, et. al. In the end, Daniel Jones may be a mediocrity (or worse), but he never threw to top shelf talent and he never stood behind an offensive line worthy of NFL status.
He's simultaneously played behind the worst OL + the worst group of skill players in the league. Some QBs will thrive with good OL/bad skill or bad OL/good skill, but you aren't doing jack shit in the NFL with bad OL/bad skill.
For noticing this you get called a cult member.
Unfuckingbelievable
No, for being a fucking cult member you get called a cult member.
Did you think Blake Bortles was a star QB being held back by circumstance? Or did you have a more objective view when it wasn't the guy that you really, really, really wanted to like?
Life is too short to spend it praying that a mediocre QB will have everything perfect enough around them to resemble a legit NFL franchise QB.
It works both ways. If the ball comes out sooner, less sacks are placed against their names and the line does not need to hold the defender off as long....
But yeah the Giants don't have a viable starter. If I were the GM I'd draft two QBs in April.
You give me a list of all the wonderful NYG O-Lineman, WRs and TEs since 2019 and I’ll answer your question. (:-)
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Saying "What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man" is a statement.
I didn't say Jones shoots puppies.
Keep it going.
2nd best, possible. Why not.
Quote:
In comment 16306034 KDavies said:
Quote:
1 pick away from being undrafted
Correct.
My statement stands.
I don't know for sure, Sy, but Tony Romo, Jeff Garcia, Kurt Warner, Warren Moon, and a few others might like to have a word with you.
Wait...which one of those did it as a rookie again?
Again - my statement stands.
Quote:
In comment 16306040 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16306034 KDavies said:
Quote:
1 pick away from being undrafted
Correct.
My statement stands.
I don't know for sure, Sy, but Tony Romo, Jeff Garcia, Kurt Warner, Warren Moon, and a few others might like to have a word with you.
Wait...which one of those did it as a rookie again?
Again - my statement stands.
haha you're awesome Sy. i don't know wtf people are arguing with a professional scout for.
Where we lose our connection is that I don't know if it is fair to just assume that DJ can't improve or bounce back.
History shows that pretty good players can have bad seasons only to bounce back with good seasons.
**And with that said I still wouldn't shy away from an upgrade at QB if the guy can be drafted. QB should be a priority. I am not deluding myself at all. I just can't sit here and say shit like "life long backup QB, Taylor, is clearly better than Jones." It's anything but clear but it could be true. Taylor had a moment or two early on where he went to the playoffs as a starter only to fade to backup role after his peak. This could certainly be happening with Jones as we speak.
Schoen strikes me as pragmatic and detail orientated. And Daboll has gotten this team to get itself off the mat with some good enough play calling and leadership. I would love to see more wins, maybe even make December interesting, but at the very least I see them competing and fighting week to week. It bodes well.
If Devito lights up GB and wins another game we should all feel free to lose our minds a little bit. Have fun. It's been a painful year we should enjoy something this season if possible.
Quote:
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Every NFL QB is talented. Pull any of them out of the context of the NFL and place them them among the general population and they'll be some of the greatest athletes most people have encountered, even the mediocre QBs.
The margins that differentiate a star franchise QB from a JAG backup QB are really thin. We're talking about a quarter-second difference in decision making, half that in terms of difference in release time, etc.
That those margins are as thin as they are is what allows a meh QB to occasionally look like a star franchise QB. Blake Bortles, for example, would never be viewed by history as a franchise QB, but he was able to replicate one for a short stretch.
The same thing tends to happen with DJ, IMO. He absolutely has enough arm. He absolutely has (or had, TBD on the injury front) the wheels to be a weapon on the ground. If you were building a prototype QB, strictly from a physical standpoint, I can understand why a lot of fans would see DJ fitting the description.
But it seems that DJ is a hair too slow here and there and it adds up. We're talking tenths of seconds here. Do you think you could spot the difference between 2.4 seconds and 2.7 seconds? I don't think I could. But I've looked at the numbers enough to realize that 2.4 seconds will likely be a completion with YAC, and 2.7 seconds will likely be a sack, with the blame pinned on the OL.
If you're expecting to see throws sprayed randomly around the field in order to identify the difference between a star and a JAG, you're not going to see it. It won't be that obvious or easily identifiable. But the results, over time, do bear themselves out, IMO.
When you're right, you're right. You nailed it.
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Are you hoping that they'll self-identify? Because I'd be happy to share some handles if they don't.
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Should the people who never believed in him since the second he was drafted raise their hand? Or are there too many of us?
[quote] The guy scores one TD that was assisted by one of the three turnovers the 2-win pats handed us in a game they were arguably hoping to lose. Sorry, the hype just isn't adding up. [/quot
Devito is playing okay but the hype is the result of DJ haters enjoying themselves.
[quote] The guy scores one TD that was assisted by one of the three turnovers the 2-win pats handed us in a game they were arguably hoping to lose. Sorry, the hype just isn't adding up. [/quot
Devito is playing okay but the hype is the result of DJ haters enjoying themselves.
There is no joy for a Giants fan to admit that their team has a problem at quarterback.
Quote:
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Should the people who never believed in him since the second he was drafted raise their hand? Or are there too many of us?
Turn back the clock to 1984 and repeat that sentence with the word "Simms" instead of "Jones".
Quote:
the problem here is anything positive written about other quarterbacks on the roster will be taken as underhanded insult to Daniel.
We're in a weird area with a group of Giants fans.
There is an absolute cult-like following that has arisen around Daniel Jones on this site. If you praise anyone not named Daniel Jones, no matter how slightly, they flood out of the woodwork and call you a hater and a bad fan.
If Jones had a microphone Infront of him and said "DeVito is a usurper and must be dealt with" I would actually worry that some on this board would be heading to Tommy's house almost immediately.
Dude. Enough with this stupid narrative. You just described MAYBE two people on the planet. Most people are ambivalent and just want to win. And there is nothing at all wrong with being a fan of (and defending) someone that you (and quite a few others) feel the need to storm threads and shit on over and over, and over, and ove... again). Some people have a higher opinion of him than you and more than a few others. Get the fuck over it already. I'm tired of having to wade through 10,000 DJ posts on every G*d*mn thread already. It's so beyond OLD.
Quote:
In comment 16306231 UberAlias said:
Quote:
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Should the people who never believed in him since the second he was drafted raise their hand? Or are there too many of us?
Turn back the clock to 1984 and repeat that sentence with the word "Simms" instead of "Jones".
If Jones becomes a super bowl mvp i'll buy you a beer
Do you really think DeVito would have performed even marginally better than Jones given the unprecedentedly terrible O-line play in the first part of this year? I know the mantra that good qbs can compensate for poor O-lines. Go rewatch the games.
I ain't no Jones apologist. I'd like to think I'm a realist and I really hope Giants identify and draft a quarterback with the potential to be the One, if for no other reason than there's too much risk in Jones' injury history But the notion that there's no difference between DeVito and Jones is just one other end of the Daniel Jones Derangement Syndrome.
Clatterbuck, intelligent post but I'm afraid to much common sense for some on this board.
Jordan Davis is a freaking MONSTER of a man! He’s going to have his way inside and DeVito will be running for his life!
Quote:
In comment 16306231 UberAlias said:
Quote:
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Should the people who never believed in him since the second he was drafted raise their hand? Or are there too many of us?
Turn back the clock to 1984 and repeat that sentence with the word "Simms" instead of "Jones".
Make sure you also erase the words "salary cap" and "free agency" from your vocabulary. And change the NFL on-field rules back to 1984 while you're at it. And then find one isolated example that might have been an outlier even then.
Any other shit from 40 years ago that you want to prop up or did all of your opinions expire a few decades ago?
Joe Schoen
Quote:
Do some of you guys really think DeVito would have won 10 games last year, including an away playoff game?
Do you really think DeVito would have performed even marginally better than Jones given the unprecedentedly terrible O-line play in the first part of this year? I know the mantra that good qbs can compensate for poor O-lines. Go rewatch the games.
I ain't no Jones apologist. I'd like to think I'm a realist and I really hope Giants identify and draft a quarterback with the potential to be the One, if for no other reason than there's too much risk in Jones' injury history But the notion that there's no difference between DeVito and Jones is just one other end of the Daniel Jones Derangement Syndrome.
Clatterbuck, intelligent post but I'm afraid to much common sense for some on this board.
Let us know when you have enough common sense to spell "too" correctly.
Quote:
I don't sound so stupid saying Jones may be the third best QB on his own team?
You don’t really think Taylor is better than DJ do you?
I know you said “may” and that’s a bit of a disclaimer but was that just taking a shot at DJ or do you honestly think Taylor is better?
I was a huge Jones guy until watching his performance this year. He played much worse than both Taylor and Tommy…..that has been painfully obvious . I’m not happy saying this….just being honest sharing my thoughts.
Quote:
claiming "hype" are not getting it.
No one is claiming DeVito is the answer.
What we are saying is there is no discernible difference between him and the $140 million dollar man.
The argument isn't that the Giants have found a starting QB. It's the Giants don't have a starting quarterback.
Big difference.
Go re-read the review on Devito's game. This post is not at all aligned with what was written. It was a glowing review for a kid in a game which the results were one TD on a short field created by the defense, sub 200 yards passing, where we scored tied for the lowest point output scored against the Pats all year. It was an ugly ugly win against a terrible team where the defense and specials played well but not nearly enough done on the offensive side.
I can't reconcile my interpretation of the game with Sy's glowing review.
I agree 100%. The anything but DJ crowd as usual, is not making sense.
Quote:
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Are you hoping that they'll self-identify? Because I'd be happy to share some handles if they don't.
Quote:
In comment 16306231 UberAlias said:
Quote:
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Are you hoping that they'll self-identify? Because I'd be happy to share some handles if they don't.
There's a lot of people who regularly defend Jones. I'm just wondering if any of them have the courage to actually make this claim. If not, then I'm not even sure what they're arguing for then. Even they don't have faith in him.
Is it not possible to believe both:
1. Jones is not the future as the Giants QB and he will be gone after next year; and
2. Statements claiming DeVito is a better QB are asinine
-Last full season and first with Daboll he played well. Made good decisions, took the team to the playoffs, had a dynamic performance in that win, obviously got killed the next week to a superior team. Pocket presence was much improved. Played like the best player in our offense at times aside from Thomas and the games where Barkley went off. 6th in total QBR in the league in 2022. "But Ryan a lot of that is his rushing..." Yeah, OK, sure, that is part of it. "But Ryan he only played well against the Vikings and Colts." Again, not true. Went toe to toe with some of the league's top QBs and beat them straight up, at times looked flat out better than them for a stretch.
-Outside of that year it has been a lot of average play. I'd argue Judge and Garrett were sort of a disaster for him. Different philosophy around offense, played not to make a mistake. There were some games he looked the part but overall that 2 year stretch was bad. Rookie season he looked great in some games, terrible with turnovers in others.
-This year was pretty much a disaster for everyone the first 6 weeks of the season. Poor play and a historically bad OL play when it came to pressures. Not necessarily talking about sacks here, I'm talking just overall time to throw. Dallas, SF, Seattle, Miami games, he was under siege for majority of those games and it eventually got him hurt.
"But Ryan you are making excuses we are tired of it."
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
And lastly - this is a team game. Jones wasn't good when he played this year outside of the Arizona second half. We've also seen countless mistakes by OL and WRs drops over his career that haven't helped his cause.
I do believe that he'll be a good player for us next year if they balk at QB because of their draft slot. I'll get laughed at again for saying that, don't really care.
I also think it's incredibly weak as a fan base that some of you guys are dismissing the 2022 performance as if it didn't happen.
It's like you wanted Jones to play that way, and then when he did, you just said well it's because the teams we played were soft so getting to the playoffs and setting a NFL record on the road doesn't matter. We're moving on.
I choose to think that his ceiling is closer to that game than everyone else thinks. Call me crazy but that's my opinion.
But you seem to be forgetting the other playoff game he started. And the other 59 regular season games he started.
We have eyes.
Quote:
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Should the people who never believed in him since the second he was drafted raise their hand? Or are there too many of us?
Hand raised here. I am reminded at such a solemn moment of that famous speech...
"April 25, 2019, a date which will live in infamy, in Nashville, Tennessee, a once proud NFL franchise was suddenly and deliberately attacked by the forces of misguided arrogance. Despite the unequivocal warnings from the advanced scouts led by Sy, that great voice of reason from the BBI bunker, the New York Football Giants were led defiantly into the horrifying depths of quarterback hell, to be forever known in posterity as the DJ Era. Today, November 28, 2023, the advanced scouting leadership has reasserted the rightful claim of this franchise to common sense and humility to make certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger the proper and fitting place of the New York Football Giants in the pantheon of great sports franchises."
So it is written. So it shall be done.
-Last full season and first with Daboll he played well. Made good decisions, took the team to the playoffs, had a dynamic performance in that win, obviously got killed the next week to a superior team. Pocket presence was much improved. Played like the best player in our offense at times aside from Thomas and the games where Barkley went off. 6th in total QBR in the league in 2022. "But Ryan a lot of that is his rushing..." Yeah, OK, sure, that is part of it. "But Ryan he only played well against the Vikings and Colts." Again, not true. Went toe to toe with some of the league's top QBs and beat them straight up, at times looked flat out better than them for a stretch.
-Outside of that year it has been a lot of average play. I'd argue Judge and Garrett were sort of a disaster for him. Different philosophy around offense, played not to make a mistake. There were some games he looked the part but overall that 2 year stretch was bad. Rookie season he looked great in some games, terrible with turnovers in others.
-This year was pretty much a disaster for everyone the first 6 weeks of the season. Poor play and a historically bad OL play when it came to pressures. Not necessarily talking about sacks here, I'm talking just overall time to throw. Dallas, SF, Seattle, Miami games, he was under siege for majority of those games and it eventually got him hurt.
"But Ryan you are making excuses we are tired of it."
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
And lastly - this is a team game. Jones wasn't good when he played this year outside of the Arizona second half. We've also seen countless mistakes by OL and WRs drops over his career that haven't helped his cause.
I do believe that he'll be a good player for us next year if they balk at QB because of their draft slot. I'll get laughed at again for saying that, don't really care.
I also think it's incredibly weak as a fan base that some of you guys are dismissing the 2022 performance as if it didn't happen.
It's like you wanted Jones to play that way, and then when he did, you just said well it's because the teams we played were soft so getting to the playoffs and setting a NFL record on the road doesn't matter. We're moving on.
I choose to think that his ceiling is closer to that game than everyone else thinks. Call me crazy but that's my opinion.
I think part of the disconnect on this board right now is that the people that want to move on from Jones (myself included) don't want just an average (or even good QB). That won't get you to the promised land in this league. So, the opportunity to keep shooting for the superstar/stud will always be alluring until we find that guy. I am certain it's not Jones. I'm not even sure he can be average or good anymore, but I know he won't be a superstar that takes his team to the SB.
I think you should draft the next Giant QB, apparently you know more than Schoen.
Quote:
In comment 16306288 cjac said:
Quote:
In comment 16306231 UberAlias said:
Quote:
By that, I don't mean "don't believe he has had a fair shake" or anything like that, I mean, honestly believes that he is the answer (or will be provided the team sticks with him), and that good things are in store for us in the future with him as the QB?
In those specific terms, I'm curious who out there is a Jones supporter?
Should the people who never believed in him since the second he was drafted raise their hand? Or are there too many of us?
Turn back the clock to 1984 and repeat that sentence with the word "Simms" instead of "Jones".
If Jones becomes a super bowl mvp i'll buy you a beer
I'll take it! (grin) I have no idea if Jones is the guy. I have no idea if he's ever going to be a top QB. But I felt the same about Simms, and I felt the same about Eli. And Hoss was no great shakes in NY after winning the whole enchilada against Buffalo, replacing Simms in Week 14.
QBs don't play each other head to head. They play the other team's defense. I have no interest in having DJ be an attachment to Wink's unit having success against opposing QBs.
Quote:
he did not draft DeVito. Passed on him all 7 rounds. For those who believe DeVito is a better QB than Jones, why would you want Schoen sticking around to evaluate QBs this offseason when the Giants determine 1. whether they draft their next starting QB and 2. who that QB will be?
I think you should draft the next Giant QB, apparently you know more than Schoen.
What a stupid comment.
Quote:
In comment 16306108 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
Do some of you guys really think DeVito would have won 10 games last year, including an away playoff game?
Do you really think DeVito would have performed even marginally better than Jones given the unprecedentedly terrible O-line play in the first part of this year? I know the mantra that good qbs can compensate for poor O-lines. Go rewatch the games.
I ain't no Jones apologist. I'd like to think I'm a realist and I really hope Giants identify and draft a quarterback with the potential to be the One, if for no other reason than there's too much risk in Jones' injury history But the notion that there's no difference between DeVito and Jones is just one other end of the Daniel Jones Derangement Syndrome.
Clatterbuck, intelligent post but I'm afraid to much common sense for some on this board.
Let us know when you have enough common sense to spell "too" correctly.
I don't edit, BBI gets it raw.
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
TO EVERYONE ON BBI - WHO HERE HAS FORGOTTEN THE GIANTS WON A PLAYOFF GAME LAST YEAR? ANYONE?
I don't think its humanely possible to forget since we are reminded on every single thread from the DJFC members.
Quote:
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
TO EVERYONE ON BBI - WHO HERE HAS FORGOTTEN THE GIANTS WON A PLAYOFF GAME LAST YEAR? ANYONE?
I don't think its humanely possible to forget since we are reminded on every single thread from the DJFC members.
DJFC may be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Are you trying to insult people who are a fan of a player of a team that they root for? So effing dumb.
Quote:
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
TO EVERYONE ON BBI - WHO HERE HAS FORGOTTEN THE GIANTS WON A PLAYOFF GAME LAST YEAR? ANYONE?
I don't think its humanely possible to forget since we are reminded on every single thread from the DJFC members.
Another fool that thinks DJFC is a cool term.
This is what Seattle rookie corner said about Jones in early October:
After five years in the NFL, a franchise QB should be way past these amateur mistakes. If Seattle knew it, I guarantee the rest of the league knows the deficiency, too.
I know this has been brought up before but watch a Texans game. Their gifted rookie Stroud acts like he's the five-year vet the way he scans the field and finds open receivers. It's very impressive and creates a lot of envy.
You don't think it's possible to 1. Believe Jones is not the answer at QB in the future and 2. Not be a complete unhinged lunatic about it?
Some of you act like Jones banged your wife. Shit.
The Giants have the fourth lowest winning percentage in all four of the major sports since Daniel Jones got drafted. Let’s stop being impressed by one outlier game while completely ignoring the game he played the next week.
Comments like that are not only insulting to people who watch football, but aren't rooted in anything realistic.
I guess we have conveniently forgotten the times throughout his career where he has indeed, thrown TD passes, including just last season, where he had 2 in the most important game of the year, and 2 in the road playoff win.
Maybe we ask Darren Waller why or how he dropped the perfect TD pass that Jones threw to him from 30 yards out against Miami. Maybe we ask why Engram dropped the throw against the Eagles that would have secured us a division title in 2020 (shitty division, I know). Maybe we ask Jones why he couldn't beat the Chiefs on the road by himself in 2021.
I have long supported DJ and still hope he gets a shot somewhere else. But NYG need to move on. If he was going to be a thing he would have by been one by now. Maybe that makes him a victim of circumstance or maybe that's an indictment on him and his NFL limitations. Either way, it doesn't help the future of the NYG to keep hoping each year with him will be different. It won't.
I'm not even necessarily of the opinion we have to go QB in Round 1 but long gone are any personal hopes that we have the near/mid term QB solution in house right now. We don't.
I'm not sure what else to say here.
Quote:
I'm not talking about defending him on that one topic. I mean the people who regularly defend him in these threads over and over. If you believe in the guy, just come out and say it. IMO, I do believe there is some points to be made in the pro-Jones arguments. But most of those points in my view speak to what could be, not necessarily what is. I myself would not come here every day and fight for his name unless I firmly believed he was the answer. Unfortunately, I don't. But I have a sense that, if you honestly believe in the guy --come out and say it. I can respect that. But if you don't really believe in him that much, I do kind of wonder why some would be fighting the battle every day if they themselves didn't fully believe in the guy.
You don't think it's possible to 1. Believe Jones is not the answer at QB in the future and 2. Not be a complete unhinged lunatic about it?
Some of you act like Jones banged your wife. Shit.
And some of you act like Jones is your wife.
No it is just a dumbass term used by those wanting to seem cool and annoy the shit out of the rest of the board.
And I know Jones isn't the guy and it is time to move on.
-Last full season and first with Daboll he played well. Made good decisions, took the team to the playoffs, had a dynamic performance in that win, obviously got killed the next week to a superior team. Pocket presence was much improved. Played like the best player in our offense at times aside from Thomas and the games where Barkley went off. 6th in total QBR in the league in 2022. "But Ryan a lot of that is his rushing..." Yeah, OK, sure, that is part of it. "But Ryan he only played well against the Vikings and Colts." Again, not true. Went toe to toe with some of the league's top QBs and beat them straight up, at times looked flat out better than them for a stretch.
-Outside of that year it has been a lot of average play. I'd argue Judge and Garrett were sort of a disaster for him. Different philosophy around offense, played not to make a mistake. There were some games he looked the part but overall that 2 year stretch was bad. Rookie season he looked great in some games, terrible with turnovers in others.
-This year was pretty much a disaster for everyone the first 6 weeks of the season. Poor play and a historically bad OL play when it came to pressures. Not necessarily talking about sacks here, I'm talking just overall time to throw. Dallas, SF, Seattle, Miami games, he was under siege for majority of those games and it eventually got him hurt.
"But Ryan you are making excuses we are tired of it."
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
And lastly - this is a team game. Jones wasn't good when he played this year outside of the Arizona second half. We've also seen countless mistakes by OL and WRs drops over his career that haven't helped his cause.
I do believe that he'll be a good player for us next year if they balk at QB because of their draft slot. I'll get laughed at again for saying that, don't really care.
I also think it's incredibly weak as a fan base that some of you guys are dismissing the 2022 performance as if it didn't happen.
It's like you wanted Jones to play that way, and then when he did, you just said well it's because the teams we played were soft so getting to the playoffs and setting a NFL record on the road doesn't matter. We're moving on.
I choose to think that his ceiling is closer to that game than everyone else thinks. Call me crazy but that's my opinion.
Absolutely correct, I think the guy has a wealth of talent and your post is a breath of fresh air.
Is it not possible to believe both:
1. Jones is not the future as the Giants QB and he will be gone after next year; and
2. Statements claiming DeVito is a better QB are asinine
The Giants have the fourth lowest winning percentage in all four of the major sports since Daniel Jones got drafted. Let’s stop being impressed by one outlier game while completely ignoring the game he played the next week.
Football is a team sport. Ask Justin Herbert.
Comments like that are not only insulting to people who watch football, but aren't rooted in anything realistic.
Nothing realistic except for reality.
He doesn't throw enough TD passes, and he hasn't since his rookie year. Since then, the HC has changed, the OC has changed, the OL has changed, the WRs have changed, the TEs have changed, the fucking turf has changed. The only thing that has stayed the same is DJ.
DJ doesn't know how to throw TD passes. Or if he does know how to, then he must be consciously deciding to not do it.
Quote:
In comment 16306391 UberAlias said:
Quote:
I'm not talking about defending him on that one topic. I mean the people who regularly defend him in these threads over and over. If you believe in the guy, just come out and say it. IMO, I do believe there is some points to be made in the pro-Jones arguments. But most of those points in my view speak to what could be, not necessarily what is. I myself would not come here every day and fight for his name unless I firmly believed he was the answer. Unfortunately, I don't. But I have a sense that, if you honestly believe in the guy --come out and say it. I can respect that. But if you don't really believe in him that much, I do kind of wonder why some would be fighting the battle every day if they themselves didn't fully believe in the guy.
You don't think it's possible to 1. Believe Jones is not the answer at QB in the future and 2. Not be a complete unhinged lunatic about it?
Some of you act like Jones banged your wife. Shit.
And some of you act like Jones is your wife.
But Daniel Jones does know how to throw TD passes, we've seen him do it, as you said, just not enough.
I'd argue there are factors at play as to why there haven't been enough. Such as a decently competent OL, and weapons that can get open and catch the ball. We saw glimpes of it in 2022.
But I do not want to overdraft a QB just because Jones played poorly for 4 weeks and then tore his knee. Doesn't make sense to me. Take a top end talent at QB that you think can change your franchise for the better.
If they aren't available, continue to build up with awesome picks at Edge, WR, and interior OL. That would be my plan.
If we draft Malik Nabers at 7, then load up Edge and IOL in round 2, I'll be perfectly happy.
I guess we have conveniently forgotten the times throughout his career where he has indeed, thrown TD passes, including just last season, where he had 2 in the most important game of the year, and 2 in the road playoff win.
He threw 15 touchdowns last year. There’s 15 QBs that have passed that mark this year, and we’ll likely be at 21 by the end of the year. Those names include Jordan Love, CJ Stroud, Baker Mayfield, and Sam Howell. Josh Dobbs likely ends up in that category if he keeps the job. Heck, DeVito might get to 15 in 10 games. He has 36 touchdowns in the last three years. Three quarterbacks threw that amount just last year.
At Jones’ career pace of touchdowns he would need 3.5 years to pass Justin Herbert in career touchdowns, if Herbert took 3.5 years off. He would need two years if he somehow doubled his touchdown output to 30 a year. Herbert has also played one less year.
You’ll be taken more seriously on here when you stop acting like 2022 was some sort of prolific performance.
If Williams or Maye are not available, continue to build.
Hell if Schoen like JJ McCarthy, by all means take the guy. Just not in round 1.
But I do not want to overdraft a QB just because Jones played poorly for 4 weeks and then tore his knee. Doesn't make sense to me. Take a top end talent at QB that you think can change your franchise for the better.
If they aren't available, continue to build up with awesome picks at Edge, WR, and interior OL. That would be my plan.
If we draft Malik Nabers at 7, then load up Edge and IOL in round 2, I'll be perfectly happy.
4 weeks or 4 out of 5 years?
You'll never take me seriously, because I believe in Daniel Jones. Just leave it at that.
Quote:
on Daniel Jones. From all that I've read on this site, it's due to one of three reasons:
(1) Injuries
(2) Talent
(3) Injuries & Talent
I understand the issue over injuries (and I wish this young man would just retire for his own personal health), but it seems that his "talent" has been denigrated far beyond what he deserves, and I say that knowing full well what his limitations are.
Every NFL QB is talented. Pull any of them out of the context of the NFL and place them them among the general population and they'll be some of the greatest athletes most people have encountered, even the mediocre QBs.
The margins that differentiate a star franchise QB from a JAG backup QB are really thin. We're talking about a quarter-second difference in decision making, half that in terms of difference in release time, etc.
That those margins are as thin as they are is what allows a meh QB to occasionally look like a star franchise QB. Blake Bortles, for example, would never be viewed by history as a franchise QB, but he was able to replicate one for a short stretch.
The same thing tends to happen with DJ, IMO. He absolutely has enough arm. He absolutely has (or had, TBD on the injury front) the wheels to be a weapon on the ground. If you were building a prototype QB, strictly from a physical standpoint, I can understand why a lot of fans would see DJ fitting the description.
But it seems that DJ is a hair too slow here and there and it adds up. We're talking tenths of seconds here. Do you think you could spot the difference between 2.4 seconds and 2.7 seconds? I don't think I could. But I've looked at the numbers enough to realize that 2.4 seconds will likely be a completion with YAC, and 2.7 seconds will likely be a sack, with the blame pinned on the OL.
If you're expecting to see throws sprayed randomly around the field in order to identify the difference between a star and a JAG, you're not going to see it. It won't be that obvious or easily identifiable. But the results, over time, do bear themselves out, IMO.
This is a fantastic post. I wish you would post this way more often, honestly. It adds a LOT more value to this site than back and forth going after somebody.
Quote:
In comment 16306360 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
OK...just last season, as in 2022, he played awesome for us when it mattered and won a playoff game. Something that a lot of folks just have conveniently forgotten.
TO EVERYONE ON BBI - WHO HERE HAS FORGOTTEN THE GIANTS WON A PLAYOFF GAME LAST YEAR? ANYONE?
I don't think its humanely possible to forget since we are reminded on every single thread from the DJFC members.
DJFC may be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Are you trying to insult people who are a fan of a player of a team that they root for? So effing dumb.
The DJFC term refers to those who root for DJ above the Giants, not simply because he's the Giants' QB. The fans who are more invested in rooting for the redemption story of DJ proving his doubters (or "haters") wrong than they are in the Giants being a consistent championship contender.
The reason for my view on what constitutes a DJFC poster is that most of these fans have no problem trashing the other 52 players on the roster in their effort to make excuses for DJ, but refuse to place any blame on #8. Why do they say that someone is a "bad fan" if they are done with DJ at QB, but those same posters will call KT a bust, or call Waller a "china doll," etc.? There are several examples of this on the top page of threads right now even with DJ on IR.
Why does DJ get undying affection and loyalty but no other Giants get the same treatment?
You'll never take me seriously, because I believe in Daniel Jones. Just leave it at that.
Well no, I’ll never take you serious because you’re an idiot. But there still might be hope for the rest of the board.
I couldn't care less how he played before that, which is why I mentioned earlier that his rookie year he showed a lot, and then was bad a lot, and then those 2 years with Judge and Garrett were a shitshow.
Daboll showed what he can do. I'm confident he can get there again and be better than that. But if they choose to go in another direction I am absolutely fine with it.
I am not sure why I am being attacked for having this opinion, but I get it.
Quote:
In comment 16306397 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 16306391 UberAlias said:
Quote:
I'm not talking about defending him on that one topic. I mean the people who regularly defend him in these threads over and over. If you believe in the guy, just come out and say it. IMO, I do believe there is some points to be made in the pro-Jones arguments. But most of those points in my view speak to what could be, not necessarily what is. I myself would not come here every day and fight for his name unless I firmly believed he was the answer. Unfortunately, I don't. But I have a sense that, if you honestly believe in the guy --come out and say it. I can respect that. But if you don't really believe in him that much, I do kind of wonder why some would be fighting the battle every day if they themselves didn't fully believe in the guy.
You don't think it's possible to 1. Believe Jones is not the answer at QB in the future and 2. Not be a complete unhinged lunatic about it?
Some of you act like Jones banged your wife. Shit.
And some of you act like Jones is your wife.
The funny thing is, I thought my post was fairly non combative. But then this guy comes back at me about unhinged lunatic's and references to Jones bangging people's wives, LOL.
Yep, it doesn't really matter Uber. They've lost their minds at this point. I am convinced.
Quote:
ajr, for the 1000th time, you and i are never going to agree on this. You saying stuff like "you'd be taken more seriously here IF" means you just want me to say something that you agree with, and then you'll somehow take me more seriously.
You'll never take me seriously, because I believe in Daniel Jones. Just leave it at that.
Well no, I’ll never take you serious because you’re an idiot. But there still might be hope for the rest of the board.
Got it - and posts like that are the reason that this conversation is no longer fun for anybody.
That is a completely made up thing. Nobody would be a true fan of the Giants if that were the case.
I love the Giants. I also think Jones can be really good. I also would not give a shit if they drafted another QB who becomes great and the team is great.
I am not sure why you guys continue to say things like that.
I couldn't care less how he played before that, which is why I mentioned earlier that his rookie year he showed a lot, and then was bad a lot, and then those 2 years with Judge and Garrett were a shitshow.
Daboll showed what he can do. I'm confident he can get there again and be better than that. But if they choose to go in another direction I am absolutely fine with it.
I am not sure why I am being attacked for having this opinion, but I get it.
That’s not how it works. The other years just don’t count in deciding what Jones is as a quarterback. If that was the case Winston would still have a job based on his 2016 season.
We’re not talking about an MVP season, we’re talking about a season where he had more 0 touchdown games than multi touchdown games passing. Daboll showed what he can do with Jones, 15 touchdowns with a remedial passing game and some smoke and mirrors. That’s Jones’ ceiling, and it’s evident how it started to come crashing down in the second half of last year against good teams and carried into this year. His 2022 season as passer is basically identical to his 2022 and 2021 seasons just with a 3% bump in completion percentage and a .4% bump in TD percentage.
He was the same guy in 2022 he’s been his whole career, a mediocre at best QB who can’t throw for touchdowns. They just happened to have more things go their way last year and won more games.
I really can't be bothered to get into it, but you have no idea how the Giant's organisation functions.
Sure it does. It's what fan forums were built for.
Some of you act like Jones banged your wife. Shit.
He's probably bad at that too
I've said that tanking is for losers and rooting for losses is for losers, and I'll continue to support that theory. Not any one player is a guarantee, there are QBs who get drafted beyond Williams or Maye that could likely be better than them. There are QBs who come out of the 2025 and 2026 draft who may be better than them.
I root for the Giants to win every Sunday. That doesn't make me a better fan than anyone else. I just think rooting for losses is weak, and it doesn't have anything to do with Daniel Jones.
If the Giants have the 8th pick and take Jayden Daniels, I won't agree with it, but I'll root like hell for the kid and hope he's really good.
I've said that tanking is for losers and rooting for losses is for losers, and I'll continue to support that theory. Not any one player is a guarantee, there are QBs who get drafted beyond Williams or Maye that could likely be better than them. There are QBs who come out of the 2025 and 2026 draft who may be better than them.
I root for the Giants to win every Sunday. That doesn't make me a better fan than anyone else. I just think rooting for losses is weak, and it doesn't have anything to do with Daniel Jones.
If the Giants have the 8th pick and take Jayden Daniels, I won't agree with it, but I'll root like hell for the kid and hope he's really good.
Do you think he can be good enough to get the Giants to a SB?
I've said that tanking is for losers and rooting for losses is for losers, and I'll continue to support that theory. Not any one player is a guarantee, there are QBs who get drafted beyond Williams or Maye that could likely be better than them. There are QBs who come out of the 2025 and 2026 draft who may be better than them.
I root for the Giants to win every Sunday. That doesn't make me a better fan than anyone else. I just think rooting for losses is weak, and it doesn't have anything to do with Daniel Jones.
If the Giants have the 8th pick and take Jayden Daniels, I won't agree with it, but I'll root like hell for the kid and hope he's really good.
Everyone said the same exact thing about Eli Manning and Phil Simms before the light came on.
I choose to think that Jones still has it in him to be really good. You going back and forth about this accomplishes nothing.
He brought them to the divisional round with a pretty shitty roster. I think if he improves as a player and the Giants improve their roster, they can get there.
But again, I would still like the strategy of nailing 3 top 50 picks for the roster as a whole along with some value FA, and think we could be on to something as well.
The Giants should likely be 5-7 or 6-6 right now. They aren't as far off as everyone thinks, in my opinion.
Everyone said the same exact thing about Eli Manning and Phil Simms before the light came on.
I choose to think that Jones still has it in him to be really good. You going back and forth about this accomplishes nothing.
So, now there is some mystical force at 1925 Giants Way that brings out the best in first round QBs after year five?
Simms, btw, is such a bad reference because the economics of the league are vastly different.
But, I'll say this - based on your thoughts with Jones, the Eagles could have done the same thing with Wentz. They didn't and it's paying off for them. You have to know when it's time to move on.
That is a completely made up thing. Nobody would be a true fan of the Giants if that were the case.
I love the Giants. I also think Jones can be really good. I also would not give a shit if they drafted another QB who becomes great and the team is great.
I am not sure why you guys continue to say things like that.
When someone trashes every individual player on the OL, and every individual player in the WR corps, and every individual player in the TE group, just so that they can avoid placing ANY blame on DJ, that is absolutely rooting for one player above the team. They're willing to trash 20 guys to preserve their view of one guy.
I will say this to your credit, Ryan - I believe you're generally consistent. I think it bothers you to see any Giants player struggle, and I think you tend to be reluctant to criticize any of them. But I think that brings about a separate credibility issue. It's hard to take your patience seriously when you were also pleading with the board to "let it play out" through Ereck Flowers' time here, for example.
But for the posters to whom I'm referring, they are completely comfortable talking shit about every player and coach involved with the offense, except for Daniel Jones. They would cycle through OCs every year rather than replace the QB. They would draft nothing but OL and WRs every year because they're convinced that it couldn't possibly be Jones's fault. That's what constitutes a DJFC POV, IMO.
Would you like for me to go find some of the posts where this happens? Or can we agree that it's a fairly prevalent occurrence among a small subset of the fanbase?
I thought only the Daboll years count?
The guy knows how to throw TD passes. He hasn't done enough of it obviously - everyone knows that.
But he didn't just wake up one day and say hey you know what I'm going to not throw TD passes today. The team was abysmal and he had zero time to throw the ball the first month, aside from one game.
Quote:
ajr, and Jones was tied for 7th in TD passes as a rookie, where he played 12 games. What does it matter?
I thought only the Daboll years count?
What is your point? I'm saying it doesn't matter. It was a long time ago and I think Daboll restarted his career, I could care less what happened previously.
You made the point about Eli having a lot of TD passes his first full season, and so I countered with Jones doing basically the same thing as a rookie.
I'm not trashing individual players. I'm saying the collective groups have been pretty much a disaster for a number of years. OL aside from Thomas has been bad. WR aside from a few flashes here and there have been very medicore. Engram - to his credit he turned it out - was a walking turnover everytime we threw it his way.
I'm saying Schoen needs to find better players.
But, I'll say this - based on your thoughts with Jones, the Eagles could have done the same thing with Wentz. They didn't and it's paying off for them. You have to know when it's time to move on.
Totally - and if Schoen chooses to do that - I will be on board and be with Schoen 100%.
The guy is smart and knows what he's doing.
The guy knows how to throw TD passes. He hasn't done enough of it obviously - everyone knows that.
But he didn't just wake up one day and say hey you know what I'm going to not throw TD passes today. The team was abysmal and he had zero time to throw the ball the first month, aside from one game.
You're right - it wasn't actually a conscious decision to not throw TD passes.
But I do think it's worth at least considering that the only time we've seen DJ have anything approaching prolific passing success, a) it came in only a handful of games that season (but it doesn't seem uncommon for rookies to be inconsistent like that); and b) it was accompanied by an unacceptably high number of turnovers.
We have not seen DJ be able to be a dangerous passing threat since he cut down on the turnovers, and I believe it's reasonable to at least ask if he's able to do one without the other. The TDs in his rookie year were ultimately hollow because of the fumbles (and INTs, to a lesser extent). And many here said that if he could keep the success while cleaning up the turnovers, he'd be a star. But that didn't happen. As far as we can observe, the only way that he was able to clean up the turnovers was to become the most conservative passing QB in the league.
If that's ultimately what he is - a choice between a turnover machine or a TD-averse passer - that's not going to result in consistent success.
I think we can probably believe it, since you already said it on another thread. And because you're talking to an audience that spends just as much time on Giants.com as you.
I bet no one besides you is surprised that a for-profit entity is selling something for which there is perceived demand.
He brought them to the divisional round with a pretty shitty roster. I think if he improves as a player and the Giants improve their roster, they can get there.
Got it. I think we just have a fundamental disagreement as to his talent level then. That, of course, is totally fine but it also means neither side is going to convince the other.
Daniel Jones throws his career high in touchdown passes as a rookie, when the league had zero film on him. Most of those touchdowns came against bad teams.
The next two years after the league having film on him he turns into a miserable QB. Sure Garrett and Judge played a role, but a guy who could be elite one day won’t drop off that far just because of coaching.
What happens next? Daboll comes a long and Jones has a decent year, in part because the league has no film on Jones in Dabolls scheme that utilized his best asset in his legs to make him a better passer.
As the season went on and more stuff went on film the production began to drop off. The league caught up.
So this year Daboll has no choice but to open things up and the offense cratered.
The only two decent Jones seasons were years where the league had no tape on him operating the system. They caught on pretty quick.
I'm not trashing individual players. I'm saying the collective groups have been pretty much a disaster for a number of years. OL aside from Thomas has been bad. WR aside from a few flashes here and there have been very medicore. Engram - to his credit he turned it out - was a walking turnover everytime we threw it his way.
I'm saying Schoen needs to find better players.
Like I said, I do think you tend to be generally consistent in your patience with any/all Giants players. Sometimes to a fault (see Flowers, Ereck), but that's a separate issue.
But many of your fellow fans on the pro-DJ side of the aisle are much less consistent. They do trash individual players in order to prop up their support for DJ.
Daniel Jones throws his career high in touchdown passes as a rookie, when the league had zero film on him. Most of those touchdowns came against bad teams.
The next two years after the league having film on him he turns into a miserable QB. Sure Garrett and Judge played a role, but a guy who could be elite one day won’t drop off that far just because of coaching.
What happens next? Daboll comes a long and Jones has a decent year, in part because the league has no film on Jones in Dabolls scheme that utilized his best asset in his legs to make him a better passer.
As the season went on and more stuff went on film the production began to drop off. The league caught up.
So this year Daboll has no choice but to open things up and the offense cratered.
The only two decent Jones seasons were years where the league had no tape on him operating the system. They caught on pretty quick.
This is a pretty solid post ajr. And now the number of comments coming in from defensive players around the league on attacking Jones continues to grow.
But many of your fellow fans on the pro-DJ side of the aisle are much less consistent. They do trash individual players in order to prop up their support for DJ.
The DJFC are boxed in these days. I hear them criticize other QBs like Justin Fields, Sam Howell, Kenny Pickett, Malik Willis, etc. They said they aren't good QBs, and the teams should move on. And that may indeed be true.
But these QBs don't have nearly the # of starts Jones had before he looked remotely like a decent QB, which was in year four. So, how can they pass judgment when their QB icon was given an unusual amount of time to show something...
No one is arguing Devito doesn't hold onto the ball too long. But he's also throwing TDs at a much higher rate than Jones was and not turning the ball over himself. And this is only after playing a few NFL games versus Jones being the starter since 2019.
The question you should be asking isn't whether who is better between Jones and Devito, it's how is Jones not exponentially better?
I've asked this in the past, and now here we are after five seasons in the same place - what is the point at which you conclude that Jones has had his chances and not taken advantage of them?
Quote:
In comment 16306038 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 16306033 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
the problem here is anything positive written about other quarterbacks on the roster will be taken as underhanded insult to Daniel.
We're in a weird area with a group of Giants fans.
The 4th post of this thread, you claim DeVito is better than Jones. That isn't an "underhanded insult." More like direct. It's a ridiculous notion.
You are taking it as an insult. I am claiming it might be true.
Just last year Jones went 9-7-1 with a terrible OL and Hodgins as the best WR, and then won a playoff game. Wake me up when DeVito does that.
I like DeVito as the backup QB going forward. Jones will be gone due to the contract in '25, when they can get out of it.
If Devito had started the # of games Jones had started going into 2022, I genuinely think Devito would had QB'd the Giants to a better record last year.
Eric says it best, DJ just does not throw TD passes.
I mean I'm sure that will get dismissed as a team stat, but I'm so bored of people clinging onto that fugazi playoff game.
Quote:
But many of your fellow fans on the pro-DJ side of the aisle are much less consistent. They do trash individual players in order to prop up their support for DJ.
The DJFC are boxed in these days. I hear them criticize other QBs like Justin Fields, Sam Howell, Kenny Pickett, Malik Willis, etc. They said they aren't good QBs, and the teams should move on. And that may indeed be true.
But these QBs don't have nearly the # of starts Jones had before he looked remotely like a decent QB, which was in year four. So, how can they pass judgment when their QB icon was given an unusual amount of time to show something...
Yep.
I mean I'm sure that will get dismissed as a team stat, but I'm so bored of people clinging onto that fugazi playoff game.
With a *historic* performance! 😂
Quote:
In comment 16306436 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
ajr, for the 1000th time, you and i are never going to agree on this. You saying stuff like "you'd be taken more seriously here IF" means you just want me to say something that you agree with, and then you'll somehow take me more seriously.
You'll never take me seriously, because I believe in Daniel Jones. Just leave it at that.
Well no, I’ll never take you serious because you’re an idiot. But there still might be hope for the rest of the board.
Got it - and posts like that are the reason that this conversation is no longer fun for anybody.
Posts like that? As opposed to you frequently saying how happy you would be and how much better off BBI would be when ajr and other posters would disappear again when Jones got back and played well.
You don't get to play the victim after stuff like that
The Giants should likely be 5-7 or 6-6 right now. They aren't as far off as everyone thinks, in my opinion.
Yes, if the Giants caught a ton of breaks this season they could be .500. You could say that for just about any team aside from the Panthers. The Giants have a -133 (!) point differential and needed a missed chip shot FG and a miracle comeback to beat ARZ and NE (two of the worst teams (along with the Giants and Panthers) in the league).
The Giants are right where they belong this year. They've won and lost some close games and lost a bunch of games where they weren't even competitive.
Many fans just remember the close losses and love to say "what if" about those, but don't want to play the same game for close wins.
I mean I'm sure that will get dismissed as a team stat, but I'm so bored of people clinging onto that fugazi playoff game.
I did this exercise six months ago - based on the opponent's final record of the year. Prior to 2021, he hadn't beaten a single team that ended the year with a winning record. Not one.
Since then, he has won four regular season games and one playoff game. In 2021, it was two - the Saints (10/3/21) and the Raiders (11/7/21). In 2022, he beat the Ravens (10/16/22), the Jaguars (10/23/22) and the Vikings (1/15/23).
That's it. And there will be zero in 2023. So a total of five games in five years.
Quote:
In comment 16306391 UberAlias said:
Some of you act like Jones banged your wife. Shit.
He's probably bad at that too
One and done, just like his pass progressions, lmao
He has an autograph signing at a Hoagie shop in Wayne tonight
Good for him
Quote:
I will be shocked if DeVito doesn't look like a train wreck against the Eagles.
I also would not be surprised to see Daboll go back to Taylor.
A decision like this might actually have impact on how I view him. He hasn’t been perfect this year by any means but I still believe in him
This is something many don't want to admit. Looking back at the 22 Giants I see them as a 6 win team that caught some breaks to get to 9 wins and backed into the playoffs
These aren’t a few calls here, a few breaks there.
The Giants should have beaten the Bills in Buffalo, a team that just outplayed the Eagles for 59 minutes in Philadelphia.
Team is not as far off as people would think, if the offense can get it together next season.
These aren’t a few calls here, a few breaks there.
The Giants should have beaten the Bills in Buffalo, a team that just outplayed the Eagles for 59 minutes in Philadelphia.
Team is not as far off as people would think, if the offense can get it together next season.
Correct
They have multiple All Pro caliber players on this team and several solid starters. It is the depth and OL that concern me the most
And the....nevermind
It’s not a term, it’s a way of thinking
These aren’t a few calls here, a few breaks there.
The Giants should have beaten the Bills in Buffalo, a team that just outplayed the Eagles for 59 minutes in Philadelphia.
Team is not as far off as people would think, if the offense can get it together next season.
If Lamar Jackson doesn’t fumble, if the titans don’t get a pass interference on a game winning interception, if Washington doesn’t miss a field goal or get a penalty on the go ahead td in game 2 the Giants aren’t in the playoffs and Jones isn’t resigned.
We can do what ifs for every team in every year. It’s loser mentality.
Quote:
to move on from Jones; and even I think the term DJFC is stupid.
It’s not a term, it’s a way of thinking
You might want to Google the definition of “term”.
Anyway, I’ve never liked it. I guess I was in it at one time, when I supported Jones.
Quote:
First full season he was third in touchdown passes. Compared to Eli before his light went on, Jones’ light isn’t even plugged in and he’s sticking a fork in the socket.
im not sold on Jones but have to ask. Where is Jones Toomer, Shockey, and Burress?
You mean Shepard, Bellinger, and Golladay don't qualify?
He has been very accurate, never fumbles when he is sacked, gets rid of the ball slightly faster than Jones, and is not afraid to throw the long ball, especially to Hyatt. Jones would practically ignore Hyatt and throw a bunch of 2 yard loss passes to Campbell instead. I cringe every time Jones gets sacked or takes off, expecting a fumble. Although I love the yards he gets, especially on 3rd downs.
But get this stat….Jones has thrown 55 more passes than TDV, but the latter has 7 TDs while Jones only has 2.
I have a good feeling TDV will improve in these last 5 games so I hope the conversation between our smart people this off-season includes TDV as next years’ starter no matter how much money Jones makes. If he is better, that should be the criteria, not how much money one makes. I hope that is it.
The term DJFC has always been stupid. That isn't new.
Quote:
Gano missed a 35 yarder that he makes in his sleep. Taylor checked into a run on the goal line that was clearly a mental error. 6-6 or 5-7, but they should likely have 1 more win.
These aren’t a few calls here, a few breaks there.
The Giants should have beaten the Bills in Buffalo, a team that just outplayed the Eagles for 59 minutes in Philadelphia.
Team is not as far off as people would think, if the offense can get it together next season.
Correct
They have multiple All Pro caliber players on this team and several solid starters. It is the depth and OL that concern me the most
And the....nevermind
These aren’t a few calls here, a few breaks there.
The Giants should have beaten the Bills in Buffalo, a team that just outplayed the Eagles for 59 minutes in Philadelphia.
Team is not as far off as people would think, if the offense can get it together next season.
You’re right. They aren’t far off. Just need a much better QB and a true #1
The guy knows how to throw TD passes. He hasn't done enough of it obviously - everyone knows that.
But he didn't just wake up one day and say hey you know what I'm going to not throw TD passes today. The team was abysmal and he had zero time to throw the ball the first month, aside from one game.
LMFAO! Oh the excuses! Never ending.
This times fucking infinity. Stop with the ridiculous bullshit coulda, shoulda, woulda. They didn’t win. Plain and goddamn simple.
Some people just refuse to see what’s right in fucking front of them. Ignorance personified. They’d be happy running it back the same, having the FO piss in their face and shout, “What a glorious rain shower!”
11/2023.
Tell us what else is sad.
But, I'll say this - based on your thoughts with Jones, the Eagles could have done the same thing with Wentz. They didn't and it's paying off for them. You have to know when it's time to move on.
I think this basically sums up the situation.
Quote:
I will be shocked if DeVito doesn't look like a train wreck against the Eagles.
Jordan Davis is a freaking MONSTER of a man! He’s going to have his way inside and DeVito will be running for his life!
Jalen Carter is way better.
Secondly, let's sum this up. We have 4 groups here (people who love Jones, people who think Jones could be good but we have ruined him, people who hate Jones, and people who don't see much of a difference between Jones and DeVito). Too many people are emotional. Facts have zero affect on those people so it isn't worth wasting time on them. On the flip side, too many people feel the need to change the mind of others and if you don't agree than you are wrong. Let's all step back from the keyboard and chill the fuck out. We're all passionate fans but these are all things we have no control over. And if you don't give a shit what I have to say then great too.
There, let's all get back to the arguing. Now that I wrote that, I miss the poster Mills Lane. Where has he been? In honor of him ... "Let's Get It On!"
No, it's dumb for the exact reason that AJR gave. It just doesn't fit your narrative.
But tell us again how DJ's playoff performance was "historic."
The Vikings Playoff game was huge.
It led to a historic blunder by the Giants in giving Jones that contract.
Only player with 300+ yards (had 301), 2+ passing TDS (had 2), 70+ rushing yards (had 78).
Lamar threw for 350 and ran for 140 in a playoff game, I don’t think Ravens fans are sitting around calling it historic.
The 2nd neck injury and the ACL do.
Only player with 300+ yards (had 301), 2+ passing TDS (had 2), 70+ rushing yards (had 78).
Lamar threw for 350 and ran for 140 in a playoff game, I don’t think Ravens fans are sitting around calling it historic.
On 60 attempts, and they lost by 16. His rating was 63 in that game.
So, yes, it was historic. He's the only person to do it.
When the 49ers decided to bench Kaepernick I don’t recall any 49ers fans saying “wait a minute, what about his historic playoff game against Green Bay in 2013?”.
So, yes, it was historic. He's the only person to do it.
Has there been another Giants QB in the modern era that has only thrown two touchdown passes in six starts?
So, yes, it was historic. He's the only person to do it.
Because it’s a made up parameter. Why wasn’t the bar set at 350? Or 100 rushing yards?
Historic would be if he broke Kaepernicks playoff rushing record while throwing for 300 yards. There’s nothing historic about being the first to do parameters that are made up after the fact.
The problem is he only has a few games like that in five years.
That's the problem.
The rest of his games are less than ordinary or worse.
The problem is he only has a few games like that in five years.
That's the problem.
The rest of his games are less than ordinary or worse.
The game was good, no doubt about that. But clinging it to as historic is a stretch, and no reason to keep him around.
Like you said, the games are too few. That’s the sign of a bad QB.
As a bridge QB next year (because of his contract), fine!
But if they were to pass on a "potentially" excellent QB to run it back out with Jones AND for the long haul, they won't be here very long!
Quote:
Jones is the only QB in NFL Playoff history to total at least 300 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, and 2 passing TDs in a game.
So, yes, it was historic. He's the only person to do it.
Has there been another Giants QB in the modern era that has only thrown two touchdown passes in six starts?
Well first off it is basically 5 games, he was hurt early on against Vegas.
Eli Manning went through an 8 game stretch in 2007 where he threw 6 TDs.
So, yeah, Jones' start to the year was horrible. Perhaps you can go back and look at the film of the Dallas, Seattle, SF, and Miami games to see how the OL performed there and tell me who would do significantly better in those situations.
39 pressures against Seattle. 39.
Quote:
In comment 16307027 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Jones is the only QB in NFL Playoff history to total at least 300 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, and 2 passing TDs in a game.
So, yes, it was historic. He's the only person to do it.
Has there been another Giants QB in the modern era that has only thrown two touchdown passes in six starts?
Well first off it is basically 5 games, he was hurt early on against Vegas.
I also recall Jones "basically" missing a wide open Hyatt for a TD early in that Vegas game because he threw inaccurately out of bounds.
Good to know.
Good to know.
Yes Eric, that's my answer.
Try being less condescending.
I saw at least one post comparing him to Eli and Simms early in their career. Eli went to the playoffs 3 times in his first 5 seasons and won a Superbowl. Jones just finished his 5th season and there are still serious questions about his future and he is coming off his worst season.
QB is the most important position in the NFL and it's not often that teams are in range of drafting a potential franchise QB at the top of the draft. If the Giants feel like any of the three are franchise QB's and they can get them, even if it means trading up, then they shouldn't hesitate. Jones will only return because of his contract.
I saw at least one post comparing him to Eli and Simms early in their career. Eli went to the playoffs 3 times in his first 5 seasons and won a Superbowl. Jones just finished his 5th season and there are still serious questions about his future and he is coming off his worst season.
QB is the most important position in the NFL and it's not often that teams are in range of drafting a potential franchise QB at the top of the draft. If the Giants feel like any of the three are franchise QB's and they can get them, even if it means trading up, then they shouldn't hesitate. Jones will only return because of his contract.
+1 - This is perfectly said.
-Daniel Jones: 21/27 – 217 yards / 0 TD – 0 INT / 100.2 RAT
Jones also added 41 rushing yards (not including the three kneel downs) just days after nobody knew if he would miss the game because of an ankle injury suffered last week. Mid-week, we were wondering if NYG would sign Brian Lewerke or Jake Fromm to backup Davis Webb. Now we look back and I think this was Jones’ top performance of the season considering the circumstances. We may see better statistical games from him, but he made multiple big time throws, took some of the biggest hits we have seen this year, and still made a huge difference on the ground. Prior to this game, I wrote down a list of things to look for. At the top? “How does Jones impact the game on a bad wheel?” Athletic quarterbacks are all the craze in the League now, everyone wants one. But what happens when they are nicked up? What happens when they age and lose some of their movement capability? Jones rose to the occasion and what he did post-Barkley injury on the touchdown scoring drive cannot go overlooked. 6/7 – 56 yards including two 3rd-down conversions and 25 yards rushing. What he did with what he had is exactly what good quarterbacks do: create more than the sum of parts. Big-time performance for Jones.
-Daniel Jones: 19/27 – 173 yards / 2 TD – 0 INT / 112.1 RAT
Jones added 10 yards on the ground not including his kneel downs. He lost a fumble on the last play of the first half which had no impact on the game. It was a clean performance by Jones that included a couple of big-time throws, some of which were on 3rd down. The overall comfort I see with him while making decisions and navigating the pocket continues to grow by the week. Having the rookie Wan’Dale Robinson back on the field did not look like a lot on paper, but when considering the lack of talent he has been working with at the receiver position, it brought Jones to a higher level. The quick maturation of the rookie tight end is bringing Jones to a higher level. Saquon Barkley staying on the field and playing the best we have seen him is bringing Jones to a higher level. All of that added up and his skill position talent is still bottom third in the league. What kind of level does Jones get to with another high-end receiver or two? It is all projection at this point, but we now have some more information on what happens here when this situation around him trends north.
-Daniel Jones: 20/37 – 196 yards / 0 TD – 1 INT / 57.9 RAT
Jones also added 79 yards on just 9 carries (8.8 per). He was under duress the entire night against a formidable DAL pass rush and behind a leaky offensive line, especially the right side. It can be very hard to accurately evaluate a performance like this one. Listen to any quarterback talk about Jones and they will tell you it is almost impossible to play a normal version of the position in that kind of environment. If anything, I actually put this game in the “positive pile” when thinking about where his status will reside in January. Jones made a few tough throws, he had receivers drop multiple balls, and the DAL secondary was on point. Jones’ scrambling was 90% of the Giants offensive success. His accuracy was there, the juice on the ball was there, and his decision-making was there. Unfortunately, he is throwing to JV receivers behind a freshman-team offensive line.
QUARTERBACK
-Daniel Jones: 19/30 – 202 yards / 1 TD – 0 INT / 94.0 RAT
The most important stat from Jones came on the ground. He ran for 107 yards on 11 carries and added another touchdown. It was his first ever 100+ yard performance and he is third to only Lamar Jackson and Justin Fields in rushing by a quarterback this season. Jones has 1,343 yards on the ground so far in his career. Eli Manning had under 600 over his career. The contrast in offensive style and possibilities with an athlete like this under center should not be overlooked when evaluating his play. Jones put this team on his shoulder and delivered. He had multiple passes dropped, including a touchdown. Game ball for a guy who stepped up the most when his team needed him the most. If you are looking for a negative, he did have two turnovers cancelled by JAC penalties that did not exactly impact the original result of the play.
Quote:
other than how bad the Vikings were.. Teams that bad don't typically make the playoffs or at least until we started having 7 teams per conference.. The very next game we played was against a legit playoff team and we got smacked around like little bitches and DJ played like a little bitch.. It wasn't just the OL, WR, it was also bad QB play.. in fact DJ's performance against the Eagles was worse than the assistant coach we put out there on week 18 when the Eagles desperately needed to win to hold on to first spot..
The Vikings Playoff game was huge.
It led to a historic blunder by the Giants in giving Jones that contract.
This is what is relevant here. DJ is who he always was. A middling talent, no better than the top tier backups in the NFL. The issue is the judgment of Joe Schoen in paying him like an elite quarterback and committing nearly twenty percent of the 2024 cap to him. This was a galactic screwup for the ages, especially for a franchise trying to rebuild.
Hopefully he will acknowledge his mistake and pivot at hyper-speed. Maybe Tommy DeVito takes the heat off? Maybe Schoen will have another superb draft as he did in 2023 and successfully maneuver to secure the next franchise quarterback? We will know soon enough.
But if he runs DJ out again in 2024 with another scholarship year, and starts in with the "in denial" rationalizations and excuses to attempt to justify the stupidity of the contract, then we know our franchise will be at least another year away from hitting rock bottom.
So, yes, it was historic. He's the only person to do it.
Why is it legitimate to extrapolate from this game? Jones had a good game. Awesome. Why is that significant?
Wonder why he didn't do that again?
QUARTERBACK
-Daniel Jones: 30/42 – 334 yards / 1 TD – 1 INT / 92.8 RAT
Jones added 34 yards on the ground and a successful two-point conversion attempt in a do-or-die situation in the fourth quarter, down two points. From a big picture perspective, this was the best I have seen Jones play all year. The 42 attempts were tied for the fourth-most of his career, second-most of the season. He had a stretch where he completed 22-of-24 passes. He gained a season-high 17 first downs via the air and added two more on the ground. On paper, this was a very good game by Jones. When I took a deeper look, I came away with the same impression.
Jones’ movement in the pocket was brilliant. His clock was spot on, his footwork while keeping his eyes downfield was clean, accuracy was a plus, and decision making was near-perfect. The one blemish was, of course, the fourth-quarter interception on the drive following MIN’s go-ahead touchdown. The ball was intercepted in the red zone, and it was a misplaced ball. Jones had two other bad throws. Nobody can demand perfection out of him, but when you see his stat line and add in the fact Saquon Barkley had another strong day, settling on just 20 points is a loss for the offense overall. While there were other issues stemming from the line, the Bellinger fumble, and the drop by Richie James, the interception was a big-time miss in a big-time situation. He also fumbled earlier in the game (did not result in a turnover) where his ball security technique was the main culprit. This game causes more confliction. For almost the entire game I was ready to say this was the best we have seen out of Jones all year when breaking all elements down. Then, the ill-timed interception. I see vast improvement across multiple components to the position, but once again he left me wanting more.
I'd bet Sy is willing to move on if we get Caleb Williams or Drake Maye.
This shit is getting even weirder with the Jones supporters.
Quote:
Jones is the only QB in NFL Playoff history to total at least 300 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, and 2 passing TDs in a game.
So, yes, it was historic. He's the only person to do it.
Why is it legitimate to extrapolate from this game? Jones had a good game. Awesome. Why is that significant?
So we would also classify Tommy DeVito's 7 TDs in his first two starts as historic, because no Giants QB had done it before.
Surprised we are not getting more articles on the historic proficiency of Tommy DeVito, and more analysis on why an undrafted rookie is putting up historically good performances with the same team Jones looked so bad with?
Jones couldn't score with a team that an undrafted rookie is putting up historic performances with? Huh?
The problem is he only has a few games like that in five years.
That's the problem.
The rest of his games are less than ordinary or worse.
He actually had a few of those games in 2022.
We need to see that Jones was not very good from 19-21 despite a promising rookie year. Fine. But we also need to see that Jones was good in 2022. He didn't just have one good game. HE had numerous games where he outplayed pro bowl or very good QBs on the other side:
Ravens game
GB game
Jax game
Minny both games (only winning one but was terrific in both)
Add in some other great efforts (colts game) and we can stop saying annoying shit that Jones wasn't any good last year.
Just be honest about things. Fine the Jones bashers were right, but Jones played well in 2022. Don't call it anything else.
This shit is getting even weirder with the Jones supporters.
There are a handful of people on this site who have completely stopped thinking at all and are just emotionally defending Jones like he is their son. This is so fucking weird.
This site was beside itself last year because how inept the offense was for long stretches. It's why ryan cherry-picked the game reviews.
This site was beside itself last year because how inept the offense was for long stretches. It's why ryan cherry-picked the game reviews.
Nope, that's actually not why I put those reviews on there.
I put them on there, because you and the usuals are saying things like "Jones doesn't know how to throw touchdowns" when there is much more to it than that.
Quote:
the Minnesota performance was legit. He was stellar that day.
The problem is he only has a few games like that in five years.
That's the problem.
The rest of his games are less than ordinary or worse.
He actually had a few of those games in 2022.
We need to see that Jones was not very good from 19-21 despite a promising rookie year. Fine. But we also need to see that Jones was good in 2022. He didn't just have one good game. HE had numerous games where he outplayed pro bowl or very good QBs on the other side:
Ravens game
GB game
Jax game
Minny both games (only winning one but was terrific in both)
Add in some other great efforts (colts game) and we can stop saying annoying shit that Jones wasn't any good last year.
Just be honest about things. Fine the Jones bashers were right, but Jones played well in 2022. Don't call it anything else.
If we’re being honest about things, the four games not counting the playoff game Jones put up the following:
234 yards per game (boosted by 334 against the worst defense in the league), and 1 touchdown per game. If we take out Minnesota he was sub 200 yards a game. That’s mediocre.
Jones at his best is mediocre, unless like last year and his rookie year he’s not playing one of the worst defenses in the league.
Quote:
Your definition of "good" is different from mine.
This site was beside itself last year because how inept the offense was for long stretches. It's why ryan cherry-picked the game reviews.
Nope, that's actually not why I put those reviews on there.
I put them on there, because you and the usuals are saying things like "Jones doesn't know how to throw touchdowns" when there is much more to it than that.
Last I checked the goal is to score more points than the other team.
Quote:
Jones is the only QB in NFL Playoff history to total at least 300 passing yards, 70 rushing yards, and 2 passing TDs in a game.
So, yes, it was historic. He's the only person to do it.
Has there been another Giants QB in the modern era that has only thrown two touchdown passes in six starts?
Also historic.
Quote:
Your definition of "good" is different from mine.
This site was beside itself last year because how inept the offense was for long stretches. It's why ryan cherry-picked the game reviews.
Nope, that's actually not why I put those reviews on there.
I put them on there, because you and the usuals are saying things like "Jones doesn't know how to throw touchdowns" when there is much more to it than that.
For four years?
OK.
LOL
Quote:
So we picked 4 games from ‘22 regular season…? What did I miss? How about I pull Sy’s reviews on Jones in the Eagles home game? Or the Seattle game? Or the Lions game?
This shit is getting even weirder with the Jones supporters.
There are a handful of people on this site who have completely stopped thinking at all and are just emotionally defending Jones like he is their son. This is so fucking weird.
You called this same sentiment dumb yesterday.
This site was beside itself last year because how inept the offense was for long stretches. It's why ryan cherry-picked the game reviews.
I wasn't I said the was a nice pleasant surprise and the metrics back it up. It finished slightly above average.
Again, go back and tell me the 9-10 games DJ helped win last year weren't good performances. I said good, NOT GREAT.
By every metric he was a slightly above average QB last year. And look, I will say it now it appears he fooled people but a lot of you are acting like 2022 didn't happen. It did happen. It was a good season. Going back now and saying it wasn't good is just weird.
I give up with some of you.
It was competent. That's it.
It was no way, shape, or form good enough to defeat teams like the Eagles and Cowboys who continue to toy with Jones, the Giants OL, and targets.
You guys keep blaming the OL and the targets, but not the QB.
Meanwhile, two QBs come in this year for the Giants and there is no dropoff. That's the clue.
It's gotten to the point with the Jones club that they will never give up on him. It's become quasi-religious at this point. For reasons I will never understand.
They must have felt he could build on that. Hasn't happened. May not ever happen. I would plan accordingly, meaning keep an eye on the QB position via all avenues, as I have stated 100 times now.
I am not dug in at all on Jones which is weird for this place. I am more than willing to move on, I would have been willing to move on even if he was playing this season like last, I even said exactly that when he signed the contract.
I just can't listen to people say he sucked last year.
They must have felt he could build on that. Hasn't happened. May not ever happen. I would plan accordingly, meaning keep an eye on the QB position via all avenues, as I have stated 100 times now.
I am not dug in at all on Jones which is weird for this place. I am more than willing to move on, I would have been willing to move on even if he was playing this season like last, I even said exactly that when he signed the contract.
I just can't listen to people say he sucked last year.
I don't think I claimed he sucked last year.
I actually used to defend the heck out of him for the first few years, giving him the benefit of the doubt. Internet is forever. My words are still there.
But he has not elevated his game. He did great in the second half of the Cardinals, but we were scoreless in the first half. Against a bad football team. Jones didn't throw another TD in the other five games, even in garbage time. In the Raiders game, before he got hurt, he was missing throws and the team was scoreless again. Not the 49ers or Cowboys.
Where did I break my silence on Jones? When Taylor came in and the offense didn't look worse.
Totally fine with moving on from Jones. I couldn't care less if they bring in someone else.
What I'm saying is that I think Jones can be a really good QB and that they could keep building up the team with Schoen's eye for talent, and that would be a fine option as well.
It's just weird how quietly happy this place was with Jones in Early January 23. I don't remember many saying he still sucks. Oddly, many of those people didn't post at all after the WC win. Some people disappeared completely.
I am still here taking my lumps, lol.
Quote:
and yet, I bet you Sy is ready to move on.
I'd bet Sy is willing to move on if we get Caleb Williams or Drake Maye.
Sy appears to be equally high on Jayden Daniels.
It's just weird how quietly happy this place was with Jones in Early January 23. I don't remember many saying he still sucks. Oddly, many of those people didn't post at all after the WC win. Some people disappeared completely.
I am still here taking my lumps, lol.
There were definitely people on here that still had concerns in January of 23
Quote:
wasn't really you I was referring to with the he sucked line. I mean you didn't really give him credit, but ok. I wasn't calling you out there more the board.
It's just weird how quietly happy this place was with Jones in Early January 23. I don't remember many saying he still sucks. Oddly, many of those people didn't post at all after the WC win. Some people disappeared completely.
I am still here taking my lumps, lol.
There were definitely people on here that still had concerns in January of 23
They were not unfounded. The optimism made sense too.
At this point nothing would shock me going forward.
At this point nothing would shock me going forward.
Devito becoming our Romo or Brady would shock me (making reference to Manny's thread)
Then the 2022 season happened, he did everything you guys said he was never going to do.
All it took was 5 shitty games (not just Jones) for you guys to completely go back to Jones sucks.
No interest in Tua, and Herbert hasn't shown much lately. Last I checked Jones has a playoff win, Herbert doesn't. And Jones played similar, or even better, than Herbert did at times in 2022.
Herbert has a lot more talent than Jones, but if we are measuring both careers so far, Jones technically has more to show for it.
Quote:
To those who still have faith that Jones can turn it around and don't want to select a QB in this years draft, how do you feel now looking back knowing the Giants passed on Justin Herbert and Tua because of Jones? What if they pass on Maye and Daniels and they go on to becoming great QB's while Jones continues to disappoint?
No interest in Tua, and Herbert hasn't shown much lately. Last I checked Jones has a playoff win, Herbert doesn't. And Jones played similar, or even better, than Herbert did at times in 2022.
Herbert has a lot more talent than Jones, but if we are measuring both careers so far, Jones technically has more to show for it.
Lmaaaooo. Herbert would have to take the next three years off for Jones to match his career TD numbers.
Last year Herbert went 68-4700-25-10. Herbert’s first two year surpass Jones’ 5 year touchdown total.
Blake Bortles had more to show than Jones.
Are we back to the Herbert vs. Jones ‘argument’?
There is no one who watches football who thinks Jones is even in the same stratosphere as Herbert.
It was competent. That's it.
It was no way, shape, or form good enough to defeat teams like the Eagles and Cowboys who continue to toy with Jones, the Giants OL, and targets.
You guys keep blaming the OL and the targets, but not the QB.
Meanwhile, two QBs come in this year for the Giants and there is no dropoff. That's the clue.
It's gotten to the point with the Jones club that they will never give up on him. It's become quasi-religious at this point. For reasons I will never understand.
Jones is a more visually attractive Dave Brown. He looks the part, but performs the same.
If we had drafted the "force multiplier" Herbert to replace Jones and he failed to elevate the team (assuming the status quo of he not elevating SD/LA stayed in place), the very people who post hundreds of times a week about Jones being a terrible QB would be supporting Herbert.
Why? because they liked him coming out of college while Jones was a no star recruit who was never good at any level of football.
And those same posters would parrot the same arguments Jones supporters have made - that he needs better weapons. That the OL is shit, etc. And it would all likely be due to the premise that "their" choice at QB pre-draft that they posted longingly for would need to succeed to prove they were "right". It doesn't get any more deep than that.
They won't admit it - but we all know it is true. You can see in the way Herbert is defended. You can see it in the way Fields is talked about as just being in a bad situation.
-Daniel Jones: 21/27 – 217 yards / 0 TD – 0 INT / 100.2 RAT
Jones also added 41 rushing yards (not including the three kneel downs) just days after nobody knew if he would miss the game because of an ankle injury suffered last week. Mid-week, we were wondering if NYG would sign Brian Lewerke or Jake Fromm to backup Davis Webb. Now we look back and I think this was Jones’ top performance of the season considering the circumstances. We may see better statistical games from him, but he made multiple big time throws, took some of the biggest hits we have seen this year, and still made a huge difference on the ground. Prior to this game, I wrote down a list of things to look for. At the top? “How does Jones impact the game on a bad wheel?” Athletic quarterbacks are all the craze in the League now, everyone wants one. But what happens when they are nicked up? What happens when they age and lose some of their movement capability? Jones rose to the occasion and what he did post-Barkley injury on the touchdown scoring drive cannot go overlooked. 6/7 – 56 yards including two 3rd-down conversions and 25 yards rushing. What he did with what he had is exactly what good quarterbacks do: create more than the sum of parts. Big-time performance for Jones.
All these "great" games extrapolate into sub 200 yards passing per game and 12.75 passing TD's over 17 games....
Why are we magnetized to mediocrity?
Tommy DeVito's recent three game stretch projects to 34 passing TD's over 17 games... That's almost TRIPLE the TD production of those Jones games shared by Ryan.
If we had drafted the "force multiplier" Herbert to replace Jones and he failed to elevate the team (assuming the status quo of he not elevating SD/LA stayed in place), the very people who post hundreds of times a week about Jones being a terrible QB would be supporting Herbert.
Why? because they liked him coming out of college while Jones was a no star recruit who was never good at any level of football.
And those same posters would parrot the same arguments Jones supporters have made - that he needs better weapons. That the OL is shit, etc. And it would all likely be due to the premise that "their" choice at QB pre-draft that they posted longingly for would need to succeed to prove they were "right". It doesn't get any more deep than that.
They won't admit it - but we all know it is true. You can see in the way Herbert is defended. You can see it in the way Fields is talked about as just being in a bad situation.
Justin Herbert throws touchdowns, that’s why he would be defended. He would be defended because he’s light years more talented as a quarterback.
There’s zero things Jones does better as a passer than Herbert.
If we had drafted the "force multiplier" Herbert to replace Jones and he failed to elevate the team (assuming the status quo of he not elevating SD/LA stayed in place), the very people who post hundreds of times a week about Jones being a terrible QB would be supporting Herbert.
Why? because they liked him coming out of college while Jones was a no star recruit who was never good at any level of football.
And those same posters would parrot the same arguments Jones supporters have made - that he needs better weapons. That the OL is shit, etc. And it would all likely be due to the premise that "their" choice at QB pre-draft that they posted longingly for would need to succeed to prove they were "right". It doesn't get any more deep than that.
They won't admit it - but we all know it is true. You can see in the way Herbert is defended. You can see it in the way Fields is talked about as just being in a bad situation.
I so, SO effing agree with this FMIC. It's not even about DJ. It's about A) Over-emphasis by more than a few of one position on a shitty team - And B) It's about Armchair GM's in that group's absolute NEED for being right about who they like or talked up during a draft... lol.
I ask again - does Herbert have a playoff win or not? Has he played on better teams than Jones or not?
Jones has a road playoff win in much worse situations than Herbert has had.
Herbert's QBR in 2022: 60.2
Jones QBR in 2022: 62.9
Herbert is definitely playing better in 2023 than he did in 2022. But the team is 4-7 and going nowhere. He's had plenty of opportunities to win games for them this year and he has failed to do so.
Everyone knows that Herbert is more "talented" than Jones. He has not done anything in his career to back that up yet.
I honestly can’t believe this needs to be said.
I honestly can’t believe this needs to be said.
Yeah that's not the argument we are having, but nice job.
I ask again - does Herbert have a playoff win or not? Has he played on better teams than Jones or not?
Jones has a road playoff win in much worse situations than Herbert has had.
Herbert's QBR in 2022: 60.2
Jones QBR in 2022: 62.9
Herbert is definitely playing better in 2023 than he did in 2022. But the team is 4-7 and going nowhere. He's had plenty of opportunities to win games for them this year and he has failed to do so.
Everyone knows that Herbert is more "talented" than Jones. He has not done anything in his career to back that up yet.
Blake Bortles won two playoff games.
They’ve both only played small sample of playoff game. Besides that one single game what has Jones done that proves he “has more to show” for his career than Herbert?
This gets to the main crux of our differing views on DJ. I would argue that, physically, Jones actually isn't that far behind Herbert in talent - when you consider his legs as well, of course.
It's between the ears where the gap exists. And DJ does not have more to show for his career than Herbert, unless you want to claim that Nick Foles has more to show for his than Dan Marino.
But even by that logic, Mitch Trubisky, Tim Tebow, and Blake Bortles are all in the same rarified air as Daniel Jones, by your argument, and all would supposedly be better than Herbert.
Do you honestly believe that? Or could your pro-Jones bias be coloring your view?
I ask again - what has he done in his career that makes you think he's some stratospherically amazing QB?
They aren’t even remotely comparable. One is a very good to elite QB & the other is an average at best QB.
So I ask again, if Herbert is this amazing QB, why does he have more losses than wins?
And why does Jones not get the same benefit of the doubt in having bad coaching/bad teams?
And you keep acting like TDs happen by accident or are somehow irrelevant to measuring a QB's performance.
If we had drafted the "force multiplier" Herbert to replace Jones and he failed to elevate the team (assuming the status quo of he not elevating SD/LA stayed in place), the very people who post hundreds of times a week about Jones being a terrible QB would be supporting Herbert.
Why? because they liked him coming out of college while Jones was a no star recruit who was never good at any level of football.
And those same posters would parrot the same arguments Jones supporters have made - that he needs better weapons. That the OL is shit, etc. And it would all likely be due to the premise that "their" choice at QB pre-draft that they posted longingly for would need to succeed to prove they were "right". It doesn't get any more deep than that.
They won't admit it - but we all know it is true. You can see in the way Herbert is defended. You can see it in the way Fields is talked about as just being in a bad situation.
What is this, a joke?
Of course Herbert would be defended here. And he should be since he is a much better player at the QB position, and has been since he joined the league. It isn't close.
So I ask again, if Herbert is this amazing QB, why does he have more losses than wins?
And why does Jones not get the same benefit of the doubt in having bad coaching/bad teams?
So you agree Blake Bortles is a better QB than Daniel Jones?
🤣🤣🤣. This is beyond parody at this point.
So I ask again, if Herbert is this amazing QB, why does he have more losses than wins?
And why does Jones not get the same benefit of the doubt in having bad coaching/bad teams?
I have never said that. I have consistently said that you measure teams by wins and losses. In fact, one of the main arguments I've had with Thegratefulhead on here is that his view of DJ (or any QB) is entirely focused on wins/losses, and not on the QB's actual performance. It's the sort of narrow viewpoint that would put Trent Dilfer and Jim McMahon into the top 50 QBs of all time.
Why does Jones get your benefit of the doubt but not Trubisky, Bortles, Tebow, etc.?
This is hilarious.
So I ask again, if Herbert is this amazing QB, why does he have more losses than wins?
And why does Jones not get the same benefit of the doubt in having bad coaching/bad teams?
This has reached a level of ridiculous that seemingly has no bounds.
Justin Herbert is better/is more talented than Daniel Jones.
What I'm saying is - Herbert hasn't proven shit in the NFL yet.
This has to be parody.
Maybe say less but be more compelling. Think quality over quantity with your posting.
I guess I should’ve known.
With a bum hand the last three weeks Herbert has tripled Jones 2023 touchdown output. Again; what has Jones shown more than Herbert?
With a bum hand the last three weeks Herbert has tripled Jones 2023 touchdown output. Again; what has Jones shown more than Herbert?
Herbert also has a defensive head coach who looks to be in over his head and multiple OC's.
Quote:
Thrown for more yards, touchdowns, for a higher completion percentage, all while being in the league for one less year.
With a bum hand the last three weeks Herbert has tripled Jones 2023 touchdown output. Again; what has Jones shown more than Herbert?
Herbert also has a defensive head coach who looks to be in over his head and multiple OC's.
If Daboll can get 7 tds out of DeVito, what would he get out of Herbert? 50? 60?
With a bum hand the last three weeks Herbert has tripled Jones 2023 touchdown output. Again; what has Jones shown more than Herbert?
But ‘he hasn’t proven shit in the NFL yet.’
It is sad that people on this site continue to believe that DJ is anything more than an above average backup level NFL quarterback talent. This was unequivocally self-evident before he was drafted, as Sy expertly warned us. But it is not unexpected. We are fans after all and some are more delusional than others in their love for this team. But at this point, anyone who thinks the players in that locker room still believe in Daniel Jones is out of their mind.
It will be utterly catastrophic, however, if Schoen and Mara are still in Denial. And Schoen's presser gave absolutely no comfort to anyone that they are anywhere close to Acceptance on this matter. This is scary stuff for those of us who are pining for the organization to get back to guiding the team to winning championships rather than defending moronic decisions with even worse decision.
I guess I should’ve known.
Yep, it's always the same stupid reason... lol
Quote:
Sy's review of Jones in London last year:
-Daniel Jones: 21/27 – 217 yards / 0 TD – 0 INT / 100.2 RAT
Jones also added 41 rushing yards (not including the three kneel downs) just days after nobody knew if he would miss the game because of an ankle injury suffered last week. Mid-week, we were wondering if NYG would sign Brian Lewerke or Jake Fromm to backup Davis Webb. Now we look back and I think this was Jones’ top performance of the season considering the circumstances. We may see better statistical games from him, but he made multiple big time throws, took some of the biggest hits we have seen this year, and still made a huge difference on the ground. Prior to this game, I wrote down a list of things to look for. At the top? “How does Jones impact the game on a bad wheel?” Athletic quarterbacks are all the craze in the League now, everyone wants one. But what happens when they are nicked up? What happens when they age and lose some of their movement capability? Jones rose to the occasion and what he did post-Barkley injury on the touchdown scoring drive cannot go overlooked. 6/7 – 56 yards including two 3rd-down conversions and 25 yards rushing. What he did with what he had is exactly what good quarterbacks do: create more than the sum of parts. Big-time performance for Jones.
All these "great" games extrapolate into sub 200 yards passing per game and 12.75 passing TD's over 17 games....
Why are we magnetized to mediocrity?
Tommy DeVito's recent three game stretch projects to 34 passing TD's over 17 games... That's almost TRIPLE the TD production of those Jones games shared by Ryan.
OMG with this take... lol. Sometimes I think I'm taking crazy pills when I read this site. How did Mr. Devito look against Dallas?
"But but but Devito just beat 2 teams as bad as we are! And scored 24 points vs WFT that just traded away their 2 best defensive lineman! He must be the bestest NY Giants QB!! The stats say so!"
LOL
I think some people are in for a rude awakening on Mr. DeVito, and I LIKE him. He's a Giant, I root for the Giants players to be great and the Giants to win... ALWAYS. He is not the long term answer here at QB, except maybe as a backup. My opinion. I'd be happy to be very wrong.
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
These comparisons are always silly... I would love to have Herbert, but San Diego ain't exactly setting the world on fire right now. And that is a WAY better offensive roster than the NY Giants. We might be marginally better overall with Herbert at the helm, BUT AGAIN, this team IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. We don't beat Philly or Dallas just because we add Herbert. This team is just not good enough (yet). Herbert would be hurt as well if he started the year with the Giants.... assuming Thomas still gets hurt in the 1st game.
Quote:
In comment 16307211 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Sy's review of Jones in London last year:
-Daniel Jones: 21/27 – 217 yards / 0 TD – 0 INT / 100.2 RAT
Jones also added 41 rushing yards (not including the three kneel downs) just days after nobody knew if he would miss the game because of an ankle injury suffered last week. Mid-week, we were wondering if NYG would sign Brian Lewerke or Jake Fromm to backup Davis Webb. Now we look back and I think this was Jones’ top performance of the season considering the circumstances. We may see better statistical games from him, but he made multiple big time throws, took some of the biggest hits we have seen this year, and still made a huge difference on the ground. Prior to this game, I wrote down a list of things to look for. At the top? “How does Jones impact the game on a bad wheel?” Athletic quarterbacks are all the craze in the League now, everyone wants one. But what happens when they are nicked up? What happens when they age and lose some of their movement capability? Jones rose to the occasion and what he did post-Barkley injury on the touchdown scoring drive cannot go overlooked. 6/7 – 56 yards including two 3rd-down conversions and 25 yards rushing. What he did with what he had is exactly what good quarterbacks do: create more than the sum of parts. Big-time performance for Jones.
All these "great" games extrapolate into sub 200 yards passing per game and 12.75 passing TD's over 17 games....
Why are we magnetized to mediocrity?
Tommy DeVito's recent three game stretch projects to 34 passing TD's over 17 games... That's almost TRIPLE the TD production of those Jones games shared by Ryan.
OMG with this take... lol. Sometimes I think I'm taking crazy pills when I read this site. How did Mr. Devito look against Dallas?
"But but but Devito just beat 2 teams as bad as we are! And scored 24 points vs WFT that just traded away their 2 best defensive lineman! He must be the bestest NY Giants QB!! The stats say so!"
LOL
I think some people are in for a rude awakening on Mr. DeVito, and I LIKE him. He's a Giant, I root for the Giants players to be great and the Giants to win... ALWAYS. He is not the long term answer here at QB, except maybe as a backup. My opinion. I'd be happy to be very wrong.
Do you spend as much time critiquing the opponent when you're defending DJ?
Do you look at the Minnesota playoff victory and acknowledge that despite their record, they had a negative point differential and an expected W/L below .500? Do you look at the Colts game from last year and consider that they were playing out the string with an off-the-couch interim HC at the helm?
Or does the opponent only matter when we need to make sure that DeVito's performance doesn't accidentally reflect poorly on DJ?
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
DG sure did love him some Senior Bowl....
Quote:
THE reason we have Jones. Gettleman was absolutely going to draft Herbert that year, he personally saw a bunch of his games. But then, he went back to school for his senior year, and DG (having promised Mara he would draft Eli's successor), stupidly pivoted to Jones off an exhibition game viewing.
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
These comparisons are always silly... I would love to have Herbert, but San Diego ain't exactly setting the world on fire right now. And that is a WAY better offensive roster than the NY Giants. We might be marginally better overall with Herbert at the helm, BUT AGAIN, this team IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. We don't beat Philly or Dallas just because we add Herbert. This team is just not good enough (yet). Herbert would be hurt as well if he started the year with the Giants.... assuming Thomas still gets hurt in the 1st game.
What about the Chargers' offensive roster is better than the Giants' offensive roster right now besides the QB and one WR (Keenan Allen)? Their best offensive weapon is Ekeler, is he materially better than Barkley? Their best lineman is Slater, is he materially better than Thomas?
And the part that I feel gets ignored is how much impact the QB has on anyone's perception of his supporting cast. None of the Chargers' offensive weapons have ever played with a bad QB, so we can't necessarily determine how much their play is elevated by Herbert (and Rivers before him) vs. how much their play elevates their QB.
I'm reminded of how many players looked good playing with Eli only to go on to do nothing anywhere else in the league. How can you be certain that the Chargers' WAY better offensive roster isn't just a collection of Reuben Randle-esque players who are being buoyed by a superior QB?
I don't think you can (nor do I think that I can say with any certainty that the inverse is true).
Do you spend as much time critiquing the opponent when you're defending DJ?
Do you look at the Minnesota playoff victory and acknowledge that despite their record, they had a negative point differential and an expected W/L below .500? Do you look at the Colts game from last year and consider that they were playing out the string with an off-the-couch interim HC at the helm?
Or does the opponent only matter when we need to make sure that DeVito's performance doesn't accidentally reflect poorly on DJ?
I think you are missing my point. I look at the season as a whole last year, not just the playoff game. I saw a shitty team that I expected to win maybe 6-7 games actually win a playoff game. I knew we could not compete with Philly after that game, because our roster was not good enough. It's STILL not, and actually in some ways (OL) it's worse. A different QB doesn't change that. My point on DeVito is, it is 99.9% likely that he will only ever be a backup in this league. He's a great story, don't get me wrong. And I will love it if he turns out to be Tom Brady, believe me... lol. It's not going to happen. Did he do significantly better against WFT than DJ did before they traded their 2 best DL with a clear lame duck HC in place? I mean come on, you are a smart guy Dunk, I see it in the way you post. I just don't see how people are so focused on DJ as the root of all evil for this team. He's not. I don't see him as an elite QB by any means but I believe he is better than you and some others portray. He is a middle of the pack NFL starter IMV. And I fully believe that if Daboll plays the preseason differently and we make better roster decisions for the final 53 before that Dallas game, we are in a different place right now.
This has to be parody.
It is not a coincidence that many of the same people who would not move off of Dave Gettleman being a really good GM will not move off of Daniel Jones being a really good QB. After all, their idol fell in love with Jones, which must mean Jones is special.
I ask again - what has he done in his career that makes you think he's some stratospherically amazing QB?
Well
He began his career off with production we have never, ever seen before. So...
Quote:
Herbert's career record is 29-31. He lost the only playoff game he started. He has a ton of TD passes which is great.
I ask again - what has he done in his career that makes you think he's some stratospherically amazing QB?
Well
He began his career off with production we have never, ever seen before. So...
Sorry, Sy. Now QB talent is measured in team playoff wins. Jones has one more than Herbert, so Herbert is a disappointment.
Blake Bortles has two playoff wins and Jones one, so Bortles was a better QB than Jones.
Marino never won a Superbowl, so he has shown less for his career than did Nick Foles or Joe Flacco.
The contortions are spectacular!
Quote:
In comment 16307481 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Herbert's career record is 29-31. He lost the only playoff game he started. He has a ton of TD passes which is great.
I ask again - what has he done in his career that makes you think he's some stratospherically amazing QB?
Well
He began his career off with production we have never, ever seen before. So...
Sorry, Sy. Now QB talent is measured in team playoff wins. Jones has one more than Herbert, so Herbert is a disappointment.
Blake Bortles has two playoff wins and Jones one, so Bortles was a better QB than Jones.
Marino never won a Superbowl, so he has shown less for his career than did Nick Foles or Joe Flacco.
The contortions are spectacular!
You are being purposely obtuse here. I have not seen anyone say in any way shape or form the DJ is better than Herbert. I certainly never did. I don't think Ryan is saying that either (Maybe he is, I don't know). My point in responding to that Herbert post above is that of course he is better than DJ... only a fool would think otherwise. But that's not the question. They have the SAME number of wins right now as the Giants. Does anyone believe, the way this season progressed that we have more wins with Herbert behind center? I sure don't. This TEAM is not good enough. Especially on the OL. The OL has stabilized a bit sure, but it still sucks... and was epically bad after AT went down. And I blame a lot of that on what was done by coaching and FO before the season started.
I don't understand this idea of "why have a better QB if your team sucks anyway." Then why did we sign Jones to a $160M contract instead of letting him walk and drafting literally anyone else last year? As Devito is showing, literally anyone can win a few games with this team.
We spent a lot of money on a position many on this thread are arguing makes almost no difference. How was that not a terrible mistake by Schoen?
Another year of Jones excuses and rationalizations is such an awful thought.
I don't understand this idea of "why have a better QB if your team sucks anyway." Then why did we sign Jones to a $160M contract instead of letting him walk and drafting literally anyone else last year? As Devito is showing, literally anyone can win a few games with this team.
We spent a lot of money on a position many on this thread are arguing makes almost no difference. How was that not a terrible mistake by Schoen?
DJ had just led a team that most people had as a bottom feeder in 2022 (rightfully so) to a playoff win. A team with a bottom of the league roster. The choice was either to franchise him or sign him. What were the options to sign in his stead? Sign Aaron Rodgers? Watson? That deal is not killing this team. What killed this team is is in no small part playing the starters together for 5 minutes out of 180 in the preseason. The decisions on the OL were disastrous.... keeping Lemieux and Peart. Not only keeping Peart, but then putting Ezeudu in his place after AT goes down (WTF??). Getting rid of Phillips and Feliciano. This team is broken, a QB does not magically fix this season, it just doesn't. I 100% feel that if we were more prepared to start the season overall and AT doesn't get hurt we are 100% in a better place right now, and fully in the playoff hunt. It's not such a wild take. DJ regressed instead of progressed because of the OL play in the first few games, my opinion. All of that said, if they have conviction on a guy when we pick it will be a criminal act if they don't take him. I don't see DJ here after 2024, but I guess it all depends on who is there when we select, and if Schoen/Daboll have actual conviction on them. I would guess if one of the top 3 are there when we pick, they take him regardless (as they probably should). Some people think DJ is better than you do, but so what? These constant raging arguments about just the QB areoff the rails. This team is (still) broken.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Now tell me, if you are Joe Schoen, what are you supposed to do? Your boss is publicly saying that Jones is a franchise QB. The negotiations didn't even begin, no wonder Jones held out for every penny.
Mara completely undercut Schoen. And I get most owners operate this way, but I find it incredibly idealistic to think Schoen was going to just let Jones walk and roll with Tyrod Taylor when his boss is saying that on the record.
I've gone back and fourth on Schoen, but I think he made the most of the shitty situation he was in. This team wasn't even supposed to be good last year. And I fully assume the same applied to Barkley.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
John Mara was stopped in the middle of this joyous Giants locker room and marveled at the way his franchise quarterback performed.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Now tell me, if you are Joe Schoen, what are you supposed to do? Your boss is publicly saying that Jones is a franchise QB. The negotiations didn't even begin, no wonder Jones held out for every penny.
Mara completely undercut Schoen. And I get most owners operate this way, but I find it incredibly idealistic to think Schoen was going to just let Jones walk and roll with Tyrod Taylor when his boss is saying that on the record.
I've gone back and fourth on Schoen, but I think he made the most of the shitty situation he was in. This team wasn't even supposed to be good last year. And I fully assume the same applied to Barkley. Link - ( New Window )
What was he supposed to do, you ask? Franchise tag. Period. Full stop. And crystal clear as day at the time. He tried to be cute with the DJ/Barkley strategy and it blew up in his face.
That is Schoen's fault. Mara will be Mara. But we were hoping that Schoen would save the owner from himself. Apparently he can't. He needs to pivot quickly now or end up in the dustbin with the rest of the sycophants...
If there is one thing I think most of us can agree on, it is that John Mara knows nothing about scouting football players.
The multi-year deal should have been given to the top five talent in the league at running back, ala the Jonathan Taylor contract, not the backup level talent at quarterback. A gargantuan error in judgement only surpassed by the gargantuan difference in committed dollars and cap space malfeasance.
Schoen screwed it up as badly as a GM could possibly screw this up....
IMO, the worst possible place you can be with your QB is middle of the pack. Even that fucking idiot Gettleman recognized that as "QB Hell."
Being middle of the pack at QB means you need everything else around that QB to be close to perfect in order to actually be a championship contender because you derive no advantage from the most important position. And it means that you are unlikely to bottom out severely enough to have a chance to upgrade your QB without a massive spend in resources (generally, draft capital that you need to either stock or reload the rest of your roster pipeline at all times).
And the teams that do manage to succeed with a middle of the pack QB always find that success to be short-lived. Build yourself a historically great defense and throw Trent Dilfer behind center and you win one Super Bowl and immediately look to upgrade the QB anyway - and let's not pretend that building that historically great defense is somehow easier than finding an elite QB. Get yourself that elite QB, and your championship window is probably close to a decade long, and you'll have the luxury of that QB covering up a lot of sins along the way (look at the Colts' roster that Peyton Manning was carrying and what came of it when he got hurt, or Brady's Patriots and how they've done since he left).
I have no interest in middle of the pack. If I can't have a better QB than middle of the pack, I'd rather have a worse one. I just don't want to be in the middle. It's the NFL version of sitting bitch in the backseat of your parents' station wagon.
1) This roster is not close to good enough in my eyes. Regardless of who is behind center, we are not competing with Philly and Dallas with the current construction of this roster. Especially the OL. I want to do what SF did so we can be competitive no matter who is taking the snaps.
2) It's pretty clear I think DJ is better than you do, which is of course normal for a fan base. Everyone will have different perceptions of players, some higher than others. This roster has been bottom of the league since he has been drafted. What does he look like if we built this team the way San Fran did and he's behind center?
We have all seen that there are no guarantees with a highly drafted QB, so I don't think Schoen was crazy for choosing what he did with the DJ deal. It's easy to look back and say franchising was obvious, but it wasn't. DJ played well enough to take a shit roster to a playoff game, and he looked pretty good doing it, until we played a team that we STILL cannot compete with (Philly). And I put that blowout way more on the matchup of our OL vs the Philly front 7, much more than on DJ at least on offense. And I put the beginning of this year woes (and regression, really) on lack of preparation in preseason, some questionable roster moves, and losing the only really good offensive lineman we have in the first drive of the first game. It was all downhill after that, especially then losing Saquon, and then JMS.
If there is one thing I think most of us can agree on, it is that John Mara knows nothing about scouting football players.
Good post Mike.
1. Schoen would value Williams and Maye the most
2. Likely won’t mortgage a shitload of draft capital for them, but perhaps something like one of the 2nd rounders and a 2025 1st could be the ticket for NYG
3. Other QBs - would likely take a chance on someone in round 2 or round 3. Someone like McCarthy or Ewers
4. Would likely take BPA if Giants end up between 6-9 and that very well might be Edge or WR
5. Schoen ultimately may value “non QB” BPA at every pick if they can’t land Williams or Maye
6. Adding pro bowl talent with 2-3 picks and seeing if Jones can turn it around is a fine strategy if you can’t get the top QB prizes
7. Schoen and Daboll will not be fired if Jones is the QB next year and doesn’t turn it around
1. Schoen would value Williams and Maye the most
You don't think Schoen will have Jayden Daniels in that same tier?
Or is it just that you hope he doesn't?
If Joe & Dabs are dumb enough to hitch their ride to DJ going forward, neither of them are long for this organization provided winning is something that still matters. It might not to John, just as long as he can Jones is the first one in the building, calls John 'Mr. Mara', & do whatever else he does that casts a spell on that clown of an owner.
Devito has given fans a reason to watch the games. Given his head coach a guy who looks downfield first instead of looking at the chains first. Given his teammates some energy and spirit.
Time will tell what level of play Devito will ultimately achieve but I enjoy watching him play and I feel a sense of hope when he plays.
At this point I will take that.
If Joe & Dabs are dumb enough to hitch their ride to DJ going forward, neither of them are long for this organization provided winning is something that still matters. It might not to John, just as long as he can Jones is the first one in the building, calls John 'Mr. Mara', & do whatever else he does that casts a spell on that clown of an owner.
Forcing a QB pick at the top of the draft just because they fear they will be fired is about a triple worse outcome instead of taking BPA.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
If Schoen and the scouts support vote yes on Daniels , I support Trading away whatever it takes to get him on the team. If.
If he translates to the NFL, he’s a franchise changing player.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
Check out the YPA. It's incredible.
Fine with me. There's nothing on the team I wouldn't trade, including Thibodeaux who I would consider our most valuable asset.
The actual good players on this team: Lawrence, Thomas, Thibodeaux, Hyatt, Banks, Okereke... we're just wasting their time and ours right now. Just throwing away years.
Quote:
Might have to trade up for Daniels though.
Fine with me. There's nothing on the team I wouldn't trade, including Thibodeaux who I would consider our most valuable asset.
The actual good players on this team: Lawrence, Thomas, Thibodeaux, Hyatt, Banks, Okereke... we're just wasting their time and ours right now. Just throwing away years.
You would trade away the most promising pass rusher we’ve had since Michael Strahan for a chance to draft Jayden Daniels?
With a bum hand the last three weeks Herbert has tripled Jones 2023 touchdown output. Again; what has Jones shown more than Herbert?
And Herbert played half the year in 2022 with broken rib cartilage.
Imagine if the Giants and Chargers jobs were the only two job openings. If every coach were offered both jobs, is there any doubt they would all choose the Chargers job?
Quote:
In comment 16307965 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Might have to trade up for Daniels though.
Fine with me. There's nothing on the team I wouldn't trade, including Thibodeaux who I would consider our most valuable asset.
The actual good players on this team: Lawrence, Thomas, Thibodeaux, Hyatt, Banks, Okereke... we're just wasting their time and ours right now. Just throwing away years.
You would trade away the most promising pass rusher we’ve had since Michael Strahan for a chance to draft Jayden Daniels?
I would. And I have nothing against Thibodeaux. One of the few good things on this team.
We've already wasted two years of having him on the cheap. I'm not itching to trade him - I'd rather trade picks - but we're wasting everyone's time with this zero at quarterback.
That's an awful job, but yes you've got a QB. Good luck winning the division though. Eli was right to avoid that organization.
#2 overall pick
ARI receives
NYG 2024 1st round pick (7-9 range)
NYG 2024 2nd round pick
NYG 2025 1st round pick
NYG 2025 3rd round pick
Jalin Hyatt
That is similar to what Carolina offered. This gives the Giants the choice of Maye or Daniels. I'm assuming the Bears take Williams at 1.
Do you make this trade?
That's an awful job, but yes you've got a QB. Good luck winning the division though. Eli was right to avoid that organization.
What does brand have to do with an opportunity to win? The Chargers job is "add water and stir" because of Herbert. And you don't have to win the division to make the playoffs.
The NYG job has to deal with Philly and Dallas and the team is without a QB.
Quote:
Thrown for more yards, touchdowns, for a higher completion percentage, all while being in the league for one less year.
With a bum hand the last three weeks Herbert has tripled Jones 2023 touchdown output. Again; what has Jones shown more than Herbert?
And Herbert played half the year in 2022 with broken rib cartilage.
Imagine if the Giants and Chargers jobs were the only two job openings. If every coach were offered both jobs, is there any doubt they would all choose the Chargers job?
LOL, more excuses for Hebert. His stats should be significantly better, he's had two of the top of the WR's in the league, plus one of the best all around RB's in the league.
The injuries excuse is fucking bullshit. But not surprising that some posters would offer that up.
#2 overall pick
ARI receives
NYG 2024 1st round pick (7-9 range)
NYG 2024 2nd round pick
NYG 2025 1st round pick
NYG 2025 3rd round pick
Jalin Hyatt
That is similar to what Carolina offered. This gives the Giants the choice of Maye or Daniels. I'm assuming the Bears take Williams at 1.
Do you make this trade?
Damn. That's a lot. I probably wouldn't.
LOL, more excuses for Hebert. His stats should be significantly better, he's had two of the top of the WR's in the league, plus one of the best all around RB's in the league.
The injuries excuse is fucking bullshit. But not surprising that some posters would offer that up.
The word you are looking for is context, not excuses.
If a player suddenly struggles, doesn't it make sense to understand why?
#2 overall pick
ARI receives
NYG 2024 1st round pick (7-9 range)
NYG 2024 2nd round pick
NYG 2025 1st round pick
NYG 2025 3rd round pick
Jalin Hyatt
That is similar to what Carolina offered. This gives the Giants the choice of Maye or Daniels. I'm assuming the Bears take Williams at 1.
Do you make this trade?
Absolutely zero reason to include Hyatt and that would be dumb. I would counter with 2024 2nd and the 2025 1st. It’s not going to cost that much to move up 5 spots. Including Hyatt would be a deal breaker for me. He has proven already that he may be able to be a game changing WR. Not a true #1 but he’s going to be good.
So, no trade for me on that proposal.
And you are forgetting that we went to the playoffs and won a playoff game in Thibodeaux’s first season! Was that a “waste” of a season? Jesus.
This is beyond dumb. He’s been in the league for 2 years, this current season, which is not over by the way, has been pretty bad. The guy was a big reason we made the playoffs and now is playing his way into being an all pro.
#2 overall pick
ARI receives
NYG 2024 1st round pick (7-9 range)
NYG 2024 2nd round pick
NYG 2025 1st round pick
NYG 2025 3rd round pick
Jalin Hyatt
Yup.
That is similar to what Carolina offered. This gives the Giants the choice of Maye or Daniels. I'm assuming the Bears take Williams at 1.
Do you make this trade?
And every Panthers fan that I know said that they have up too much.
Nothing they do is smart. Including that trade.
Keep building the team with smart picks. Build an awesome roster. Pivot to QB if it makes sense and when that needs to happen
My opinion, it would not make a ton of sense for Giants to trade their 2025 1st round pick and a lot of other assets for a QB. Would I hate it? No, I wouldn’t. But I’d prefer option B especially since we need a shit load more talent on this team than just an upgrade at QB.
Quote:
LOL, more excuses for Hebert. His stats should be significantly better, he's had two of the top of the WR's in the league, plus one of the best all around RB's in the league.
The injuries excuse is fucking bullshit. But not surprising that some posters would offer that up.
The word you are looking for is context, not excuses.
If a player suddenly struggles, doesn't it make sense to understand why?
Well, he's never performed to the level that you've drooled about him, but that's not surprising. You've made excuses for him ever since he entered the league.
He's been good, no question. But the level you've been droning on about. He's not "elite". Never has been. But carry on...
Keep building the team with smart picks. Build an awesome roster. Pivot to QB if it makes sense and when that needs to happen
My opinion, it would not make a ton of sense for Giants to trade their 2025 1st round pick and a lot of other assets for a QB. Would I hate it? No, I wouldn’t. But I’d prefer option B especially since we need a shit load more talent on this team than just an upgrade at QB.
This is why I think Jones got the deal. Build for a few years with Jones. Reassess the Jones deal in 2025 and either move on or restructure and continue to commit to him. I'm sure Schoen felt they could compete for a playoff spot while building the roster and he'd make the QB upgrade when the opportunity presented itself. Unfortunately, it's been the worst case scenario in year 1 of the deal.
I actually agree with the direction of this. I think it's actually more of a team issue - the D has failed too many times when it matters - but Herbert has missed opportunities at times to optimize situations. Instead of getting a TD, for example, the offense settles for a FG and then the D fails to hold.
They need to blow up that coaching staff. Spanos was too cheap to pay Payton last year, which is why he ended up in Denver because the Waltons aren't cheap.
Quote:
I’m no longer of the opinion that you should mortgage the future or trade a ton of assets to get a QB if you are not a Super Bowl contender.
Keep building the team with smart picks. Build an awesome roster. Pivot to QB if it makes sense and when that needs to happen
My opinion, it would not make a ton of sense for Giants to trade their 2025 1st round pick and a lot of other assets for a QB. Would I hate it? No, I wouldn’t. But I’d prefer option B especially since we need a shit load more talent on this team than just an upgrade at QB.
This is why I think Jones got the deal. Build for a few years with Jones. Reassess the Jones deal in 2025 and either move on or restructure and continue to commit to him. I'm sure Schoen felt they could compete for a playoff spot while building the roster and he'd make the QB upgrade when the opportunity presented itself. Unfortunately, it's been the worst case scenario in year 1 of the deal.
I agree, and in that context it made a lot of (still makes a lot of) sense. Then they went and under-prepared for the season trying to keep people healthy (that clearly back-fired) and made some bad personnel decisions that basically tanked the year. Waller and Campbell end up as duds really, compared to what we all thought they would bring to the table. And Once Thomas was hurt we were toast, and really thanks to Ezeudu (and McGaughey?). I think they overvalued Ezeudu and McKethan, undervalued Philips (as swing tackle) and Feliciano (as Guard and Center depth). They stuck with Peart and Lemieux which was ridiculous, and then start Ezeudu at LT when Thomas goes down? I am still scratching my head at what the hell they were thinking.
Quote:
Herbert is an awesome player. But things don’t seem to click when it matters the most with him. So far anyway. I’m not confident that they are going to win any game if it’s tied in the 4th or they are trailing by 3, etc.
I actually agree with the direction of this. I think it's actually more of a team issue - the D has failed too many times when it matters - but Herbert has missed opportunities at times to optimize situations. Instead of getting a TD, for example, the offense settles for a FG and then the D fails to hold.
They need to blow up that coaching staff. Spanos was too cheap to pay Payton last year, which is why he ended up in Denver because the Waltons aren't cheap.
So you admit that he's failed some - getting a FG instead of a TD - but that's somehow the fault of the coaching?
You've claimed for a while that he's "elite"; well, if he's that elite he can overcome the coaching. Especially when he's had TWO elite WR (at least most of the time) and elite RB.
But the coaching is why he's choked on the field and scored a FG instead of a TD. Right?
His team is currently 4-7. And he's made the playoffs a whopping ONE time. And it that game, his stats were 273 yards, 58 comp %, 1 TD and 84.7 rating. What is elite about any of those stats?
Quote:
In comment 16308007 speedywheels said:
Quote:
LOL, more excuses for Hebert. His stats should be significantly better, he's had two of the top of the WR's in the league, plus one of the best all around RB's in the league.
The injuries excuse is fucking bullshit. But not surprising that some posters would offer that up.
The word you are looking for is context, not excuses.
If a player suddenly struggles, doesn't it make sense to understand why?
Well, he's never performed to the level that you've drooled about him, but that's not surprising. You've made excuses for him ever since he entered the league.
He's been good, no question. But the level you've been droning on about. He's not "elite". Never has been. But carry on...
You're really going to talk about making excuses?
And you are forgetting that we went to the playoffs and won a playoff game in Thibodeaux’s first season! Was that a “waste” of a season? Jesus.
This is beyond dumb. He’s been in the league for 2 years, this current season, which is not over by the way, has been pretty bad. The guy was a big reason we made the playoffs and now is playing his way into being an all pro.
You like calling everything you don't agree with dumb. The Giants do a lot of the things you want them to do, and the result is they are laughingstock.
It would be nice to see them try something else for once. We want them to compete for titles, and what they are doing is not working.
I'd rather not trade Thibodeaux, or Hyatt, or any other young player that could honestly be considered a good building block. But we're not going to compete for titles with Daniel Jones as the quarterback, and this draft may be the best shot in a couple years that we get to acquire an actual top shelf QB. And while those young players might be good building blocks, the house is built on sand until we have an actual quality QB. We haven't had good QB play since before Jones even got here.
We've been trying it your way. Enough already.
Quote:
In comment 16308040 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Herbert is an awesome player. But things don’t seem to click when it matters the most with him. So far anyway. I’m not confident that they are going to win any game if it’s tied in the 4th or they are trailing by 3, etc.
I actually agree with the direction of this. I think it's actually more of a team issue - the D has failed too many times when it matters - but Herbert has missed opportunities at times to optimize situations. Instead of getting a TD, for example, the offense settles for a FG and then the D fails to hold.
They need to blow up that coaching staff. Spanos was too cheap to pay Payton last year, which is why he ended up in Denver because the Waltons aren't cheap.
So you admit that he's failed some - getting a FG instead of a TD - but that's somehow the fault of the coaching?
You've claimed for a while that he's "elite"; well, if he's that elite he can overcome the coaching. Especially when he's had TWO elite WR (at least most of the time) and elite RB.
But the coaching is why he's choked on the field and scored a FG instead of a TD. Right?
His team is currently 4-7. And he's made the playoffs a whopping ONE time. And it that game, his stats were 273 yards, 58 comp %, 1 TD and 84.7 rating. What is elite about any of those stats?
Let's be fair here. Those elite receivers have missed significant time. Williams has played 3 games this year.
Last year, he was hurt 3 different times causing him to miss games.
In games where Williams started and played the majority of the game, Herbert was 8-3 last year. In games where Williams was out, plus I'll add the week 10 K.C. game where he only played 6 snaps before getting hurt, and the week 18 game where he missed 2/3rds of the game after getting hurt again, the Chargers were 2-5, with wins against Atlanta and Arizona.
This year he's only played 3 games.
Last year Keenan Allen missed most of week 1 and week 7 (all but a third of the offensive snaps), and all of 7 other games. Allen missed all but about 3 quarters of football through week 10 (9 games) last year. Herbert had both Williams and Allen together and healthy for about 4 out of 18 games last year. Not to mention Herbert lost his starting left tackle; Slater missed all but 10 quarters of the season last year (hurt early third quarter of week 3), and Herbert suffered the cracked ribs early and later in the year suffered a shoulder injury that needed surgical repair after the season (that he played through).
All I'm saying is that if you're going to make the argument he's had the benefit of playing with these two elite WR weapons, then you might point to the time where he actually had both of them available, and the last time he did (2021, when both Allen and Williams played 16 games), the guy threw for 5,000 yards and 38 TDs.
Last year just about everything went wrong for the Chargers, and this year hasn't been a whole lot different for them. And if we want to talk about DJ suffering a bad OL, the Chargers line in 2022 was almost as bad as the Giants last year per ESPN team pass block win rate, 23rd in the NFL at 57%, compared to NYG 52%, and they were just as bad run blocking, both teams at 70%, tied for 26th. Meanwhile, this year Herbert has thrown for just over 2800 yards and a 20-6 TD-INT at 66.2%.
Herbert is a terrific QB. He's top 5 in QBR, top 10 in about every meaningful QB metric. The problems with the Chargers are multi-faceted but he's not one of them. They have poor depth and they have gotten crushed with injuries to very important players to their success over the last two seasons. Their defense is ranked near the bottom of he league. They've allowed the 8th most points and the 4th most yards, and the only teams that have allowed more yards have played one more game than them as they haven't had their bye yet (Commanders, Giants, Cardinals).
You can't pin the Chargers' struggles on Herbert.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
I think the trajectory he's on will send him to the Bears #1 overall.
Not to mention Thibodeaux is better right now than Osi was at that point.
Quote:
The production is extraordinary on an ok LSU team. And if you watch his highlights you'll see him making big time throws, outrunning angles against SEC defenders, and protecting himself well enough that he has a clean jersey with 200 yards rushing.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
I think the trajectory he's on will send him to the Bears #1 overall.
That would shake Justin Fields free. I hope Schoen is all over that situation.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
Terps what do you see with his reads and progression? I have only seen Daniels for about 2 quarters. I did a quick read and it was mentioned he is a 1 read QB. Just like we have now. Cannot have that again.
From what I did see, I like Daniels. Good arm, seems accurate with touch(limited views by me). He did seem to scoot early.
Slighty worried about that extremely thin build.
Quote:
In comment 16308053 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16308040 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Herbert is an awesome player. But things don’t seem to click when it matters the most with him. So far anyway. I’m not confident that they are going to win any game if it’s tied in the 4th or they are trailing by 3, etc.
I actually agree with the direction of this. I think it's actually more of a team issue - the D has failed too many times when it matters - but Herbert has missed opportunities at times to optimize situations. Instead of getting a TD, for example, the offense settles for a FG and then the D fails to hold.
They need to blow up that coaching staff. Spanos was too cheap to pay Payton last year, which is why he ended up in Denver because the Waltons aren't cheap.
So you admit that he's failed some - getting a FG instead of a TD - but that's somehow the fault of the coaching?
You've claimed for a while that he's "elite"; well, if he's that elite he can overcome the coaching. Especially when he's had TWO elite WR (at least most of the time) and elite RB.
But the coaching is why he's choked on the field and scored a FG instead of a TD. Right?
His team is currently 4-7. And he's made the playoffs a whopping ONE time. And it that game, his stats were 273 yards, 58 comp %, 1 TD and 84.7 rating. What is elite about any of those stats?
Let's be fair here. Those elite receivers have missed significant time. Williams has played 3 games this year.
Last year, he was hurt 3 different times causing him to miss games.
In games where Williams started and played the majority of the game, Herbert was 8-3 last year. In games where Williams was out, plus I'll add the week 10 K.C. game where he only played 6 snaps before getting hurt, and the week 18 game where he missed 2/3rds of the game after getting hurt again, the Chargers were 2-5, with wins against Atlanta and Arizona.
This year he's only played 3 games.
Last year Keenan Allen missed most of week 1 and week 7 (all but a third of the offensive snaps), and all of 7 other games. Allen missed all but about 3 quarters of football through week 10 (9 games) last year. Herbert had both Williams and Allen together and healthy for about 4 out of 18 games last year. Not to mention Herbert lost his starting left tackle; Slater missed all but 10 quarters of the season last year (hurt early third quarter of week 3), and Herbert suffered the cracked ribs early and later in the year suffered a shoulder injury that needed surgical repair after the season (that he played through).
All I'm saying is that if you're going to make the argument he's had the benefit of playing with these two elite WR weapons, then you might point to the time where he actually had both of them available, and the last time he did (2021, when both Allen and Williams played 16 games), the guy threw for 5,000 yards and 38 TDs.
Last year just about everything went wrong for the Chargers, and this year hasn't been a whole lot different for them. And if we want to talk about DJ suffering a bad OL, the Chargers line in 2022 was almost as bad as the Giants last year per ESPN team pass block win rate, 23rd in the NFL at 57%, compared to NYG 52%, and they were just as bad run blocking, both teams at 70%, tied for 26th. Meanwhile, this year Herbert has thrown for just over 2800 yards and a 20-6 TD-INT at 66.2%.
Herbert is a terrific QB. He's top 5 in QBR, top 10 in about every meaningful QB metric. The problems with the Chargers are multi-faceted but he's not one of them. They have poor depth and they have gotten crushed with injuries to very important players to their success over the last two seasons. Their defense is ranked near the bottom of he league. They've allowed the 8th most points and the 4th most yards, and the only teams that have allowed more yards have played one more game than them as they haven't had their bye yet (Commanders, Giants, Cardinals).
You can't pin the Chargers' struggles on Herbert.
That should be the last we hear from speedy on this topic.
Sadly, it won't be.
You can't pin the Chargers' struggles on Herbert.
That should be the last we hear from speedy on this topic.
Sadly, it won't be.
Watched the Chargers the other day wondering why they are 4-8. They are extremely mediocre.
Was not impressed at all by Herbert's performance, frankly.
Quote:
You can't pin the Chargers' struggles on Herbert.
That should be the last we hear from speedy on this topic.
Sadly, it won't be.
Watched the Chargers the other day wondering why they are 4-8. They are extremely mediocre.
Was not impressed at all by Herbert's performance, frankly.
And yet, somehow you can watch Daniel Jones and be impressed with his performance.
At a certain point, if this isn't parody, I have to wonder if one of us just doesn't know what should actually look impressive. I accept that it could be me.
Quote:
In comment 16308181 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
You can't pin the Chargers' struggles on Herbert.
That should be the last we hear from speedy on this topic.
Sadly, it won't be.
Watched the Chargers the other day wondering why they are 4-8. They are extremely mediocre.
Was not impressed at all by Herbert's performance, frankly.
And yet, somehow you can watch Daniel Jones and be impressed with his performance.
At a certain point, if this isn't parody, I have to wonder if one of us just doesn't know what should actually look impressive. I accept that it could be me.
Where did I say anything about Jones....I have been off Jones for quite a while.
You're right, that wasn't fair. My intent was more that "there are some fans who will claim that Herbert is unimpressive while they simultaneously express a strong level of admiration for Jones's level of play." We have posters on this very thread crying about making excuses for Herbert when they are the loudest voices making excuses for Jones (and they were the same fans who defended Gettleman tooth and nail, one of which ran away with his tail between his legs at the end of DG's tenure and only comes back occasionally to remind us all that he's still a blowhard).
I shouldn't have directed it as a response to your opinion in particular.
Herbert is a terrific QB. He's top 5 in QBR, top 10 in about every meaningful QB metric. The problems with the Chargers are multi-faceted but he's not one of them. They have poor depth and they have gotten crushed with injuries to very important players to their success over the last two seasons. Their defense is ranked near the bottom of he league. They've allowed the 8th most points and the 4th most yards, and the only teams that have allowed more yards have played one more game than them as they haven't had their bye yet (Commanders, Giants, Cardinals).
You can't pin the Chargers' struggles on Herbert.
Good stuff. I've provided a lot of this to speedy and his ilk in the past and it was dusted off as mere excuses.
I'm a declared card-carrying member of the JHFC. I think he's a tremendously gifted QB. But I have noticed some drop off in his game this year where he's missed some key plays. He's making the right decisions, but the execution has been off. Whether he's pressing or the line-up changes are creating issues, I do see some pullback.
Quote:
Where did I say anything about Jones....I have been off Jones for quite a while.
You're right, that wasn't fair. My intent was more that "there are some fans who will claim that Herbert is unimpressive while they simultaneously express a strong level of admiration for Jones's level of play." We have posters on this very thread crying about making excuses for Herbert when they are the loudest voices making excuses for Jones (and they were the same fans who defended Gettleman tooth and nail, one of which ran away with his tail between his legs at the end of DG's tenure and only comes back occasionally to remind us all that he's still a blowhard).
I shouldn't have directed it as a response to your opinion in particular.
Thanks.
I guess I should’ve known.
LMAO, that is literally the only reason I opened this thread and now I can't stop reading. It's like a throwback to BBI 2005, with slightly less curse words.