From his mailbag earlier.
Some snippets…
1) Mara isn’t like Jerruh when it comes to being involved in personnel calls.
2) Chris Mara has taken a step back in terms of personnel decisions per his sources.
3) Tim McDonnell-‘the nephew’ as I like to call him-has a ‘prominent role as director of player personnel.’
4) Duggan doesn’t think Mara is telling Schoen what to do, but he can’t speak as to the implicit influence that might be there.
5) Duggan believes Schoen made the final call in terms of Jones and Saquon, but again notes how ownership might have subconsciously influenced Joe into the Jones contract/decision because of Mara’s public gushing over the kid.
6) Duggan speculates Mara might step in to mend the Dabs/Wink relationship.
7) Duggan himself doesn’t think John is telling the football ops what to do on ‘individual moves.’
2) Ensure management is aligned to the long-term health of the the organization
3) Fan experience
I'm not convinced Mara acts outside those roles, but obviously he has failed massively at all three over the past decade.
to suggest that the OWNER of the team should have little to no influence on how the team is run its absolutely ridiculous to me.
2) Ensure management is aligned to the long-term health of the the organization
3) Fan experience
I'm not convinced Mara acts outside those roles, but obviously he has failed massively at all three over the past decade.
well summarized.
What might come out of #5 is Mara might say that Schoen committed to Jones with the contract; and, therefore, Jones should continue to be the starter in 2024. And cite the injuries as the reason/excuse.
Answer this. Would Tim McDonnell walk away from the Giants to be the general manager of the Browns for example?
As a GM or a coach you are going to be evaluated on the decisions that you make, so make them your decisions, not someone else's. I think if Mara was controlling the major decisions, many things would have leaked out by now from former employees who got let go because they enforced Mara's decisions instead of their own.
I do not have a problem at all with the owner saying what they would prefer, it is up to the professionals in the building to do what they think is best for the franchise.
Wellington preferred to keep Kerry Collins, the professionals in the building went a different route.
Telling Schoen its his call on the QB, then going on about how great Jones is isn't staying out of it...
In addition, I've linked an article from The Ringer on 2017 (BBI favorite Mike Lombardi) - even he thought Gettleman did well in Carolina. He made tough decisions to get the cap healthy which is what NYG needed in 2017 after the disaster that season.
Given Gettleman's track record and history with NYG, it's hard to bash that hire in real time. It was a disaster, but Gettleman was not a bad GM in Carolina.
Again, the results are the results. But, I do think people go too far with the Mara conspiracies.
Link - ( New Window )
And you know this how?
The Athletic
It's one of many questions
1.) Is my assumption true?
2.) Why doesn’t the media report on their involvement?
3.) To what degree is (John) Mara “suggesting” to rookie GM (Joe) Schoen what to do?
4.) Are we saddled with (QB Daniel) Jones’s $47M cap hit in 2024 because Mara wanted both (Saquon) Barkley and Jones back, so he “suggested” a multi-year deal for Jones and franchise-(tagging) Barkley rather than vice-versa? — Thomas R.
Dan Duggan:
Where exactly they fall ties into your other questions. As for the lack of reporting on their involvement, I’d argue that it’s been covered more here than anywhere. In the reporting of my story on Giants’ ownership last year, there was no “smoking gun” about any single decision being mandated by John Mara, Steve Tisch, et al.
But ownership is certainly involved. John Mara is in the facility every day, and he lives and breathes the team. Chris Mara’s title is senior player personnel executive, although sources have said he’s become less involved in personnel decisions in recent years. Tim McDonnell, who is from the next generation of the Mara family, has a prominent role as the director of player personnel.
To your third question, I don’t believe John Mara is dictating personnel decisions to Schoen. But it’s impossible to quantify the implicit influence of ownership. That was a topic that was raised by former front office employees in my deep dive into the organization last year.
I believe Schoen made the final decision on the fates of Jones and Barkley in the offseason. Remember that Schoen didn’t exercise Jones’ fifth-year option during the 2022 offseason. Now, did it “help” Schoen make the commitment to Jones knowing that his boss gushed about the quarterback at every opportunity? Again, that’s impossible to know, but it’s conceivable that it helped tip the scale.
Ownership is heavily involved on the highest-level decisions, such as coaching hires. And, as mentioned above, I can envision Mara interceding in the Daboll-Martindale relationship. Ownership signs off on major personnel decisions and definitely has input in the process, but I don’t believe Mara mandates individual moves.
MARA WANTS TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. He wants to be seen as an owner who keeps hands off, while being involved in all big decisions.
"John, what should we do with Daniel Jones?"
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Chris doesn't do anything and Tim basically handles logistics for Schoen's meetings and scouting trips.
And you know this how?
Comments John has made, and from others in the building. Tim sends out texts as well so there's that.
"John, what should we do with Daniel Jones?"
Likely, the proverbial distribution without a difference.
MARA WANTS TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. He wants to be seen as an owner who keeps hands off, while being involved in all big decisions.
I think this is a fact.
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There are different levels of being 'involved'. "John, what is your opinion on Daniel Jones?"
"John, what should we do with Daniel Jones?"
Likely, the proverbial distribution without a difference.
*distinction without a difference.
Number 3 is pretty important also.
Even if Nephew Tim is below Schoen on the org chart, he's above Schoen on the ownership chart. That's a problem even when things are aligned, and a disaster when things aren't.
Sure...John Mara himself might not be directly influencing decisions, but if you have familial mouthpieces involved on the player personnel side of things, you can attempt to have it both ways like someone stated above.
"John, what should we do with Daniel Jones?"
*Insert Pam from The Office*
"Sign Daniel Jones" and "Hey Joe, it sure would be nice to have Jones around for another few years. But whatever you think is best" are the same picture
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There are different levels of being 'involved'. "John, what is your opinion on Daniel Jones?"
"John, what should we do with Daniel Jones?"
*Insert Pam from The Office*
"Sign Daniel Jones" and "Hey Joe, it sure would be nice to have Jones around for another few years. But whatever you think is best" are the same picture
Yep
Go look at when C. Mara (new role) and T. McDonnell arrived on the scene and tell me there's no coincidence there.
is ANYONE claiming that the point he made was not true..
Three different coaches, 4 different OCs. No weapons to work with, One of the WORST offensive lines of all time. Barkley always hurt...
I mean really is what he said out of line? Now those things could be true AND Jones still couldnt be the right guy.. But to think that someone put undue influence on Schoen to keep the QB is ridiculous...
Its just fans venting...
And I have said this for a long time.. 90% of the people have NEVER even looked at Chris Mara OR Tim McDonnell's background or resume.. they just cry nepotism..
is ANYONE claiming that the point he made was not true..
Three different coaches, 4 different OCs. No weapons to work with, One of the WORST offensive lines of all time. Barkley always hurt...
I mean really is what he said out of line? Now those things could be true AND Jones still couldnt be the right guy.. But to think that someone put undue influence on Schoen to keep the QB is ridiculous...
Its just fans venting...
And I have said this for a long time.. 90% of the people have NEVER even looked at Chris Mara OR Tim McDonnell's background or resume.. they just cry nepotism..
There are special exceptions, like a GM wanting to sign a player with a troubled or controversial past. If an owner does not want their team associated with such a player then that is understandable. But as far as player evaluations, an owner's input should be considered, but with the appropriate value (they are not player evaluators, hired people to do just that, trust their decisions within reason)
The issue is the owner will meddle less once the team wins. It's easy not to meddle if the franchise has mostly won.
Say what you will about him, but Jerry Jones puts it all out there. He isn't hiding anything.
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"we have done everything possible to screw this kid up"
is ANYONE claiming that the point he made was not true..
Three different coaches, 4 different OCs. No weapons to work with, One of the WORST offensive lines of all time. Barkley always hurt...
I mean really is what he said out of line? Now those things could be true AND Jones still couldnt be the right guy.. But to think that someone put undue influence on Schoen to keep the QB is ridiculous...
Its just fans venting...
And I have said this for a long time.. 90% of the people have NEVER even looked at Chris Mara OR Tim McDonnell's background or resume.. they just cry nepotism..
it's not that what he said wasn't true, it's that he chose to say it to everyone publicly.
Who gives a crap that he said it publicly? It doesnt change anything.. only in the minds of this nuthouse of a fanbase.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
We find ourselves in the phase of bargaining within the spectrum of grief, where the acknowledgment of the team's prolonged ass performance, spanning over a decade, is eventually going to end. It's not. We are no different than the Browns or Jets, underscoring being the perennial bottom-feeders of the league. This struggle is emphasized by the continuous turnover of head coaches, coordinators, and two changes in GM over the years, pointing to glaring systemic issues within the organization.
The recurrent theme threading through these challenges is Wellington Mara, whose legacy appears to cast a shadow over the organization's fortunes. John Mara's tenure since assuming the presidency in 2005, following Wellington's death, reveals a trajectory marked by a descent into organizational disarray. This begs to question the efficacy of his leadership. Seriously, can anyone actually name something positive John Mara has done for this team that wasn't already in place before 2005?
The hope of securing a competent GM, head coach, or franchise quarterback remains our only hope. However, until such serendipity graces our franchise, the sobering reality remains that we are destined for an extended period of bad football (just bad enough to pick 5-10 consistently and never have the chance at a blue chip prospect, of course) as long as Mara is still at the helm.
I will still root for the Giants, as I have my entire life, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't lose the spark I once had. I've personally entered the final stage of grief - acceptance. Nothing is going to change, how could it? The franchise's net worth continues growing so why care about performance on the field? Steve Tisch (our false prophet) isn't going to start a war if his net worth climbs regardless. We have nobody to turn to. We are most likely never going to win another Super Bowl in my lifetime but I am blessed to have seen two, and my father to have seen four. John Mara has driven this organization to the ground.
4 and 5 is throwing shit against the wall to see if it sticks. It's just throwing out an opinion to stir something up.
I think franchise QB is an owner level decision in most of not all organizations. The problem is Mara was dead wrong on Jones being any good.
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will continue unchecked by reason.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
Its gotten ridiculous.. I have had several thoughts this season about disconnecting myself from the " noise " of the fanbase.
Got it.
I've said this before and I will say it again: Schoen was a hot GM commodity. He was not desperate for the Giants job. He's not DG, who would have done anything Mara wanted to get back into a FO. If anyone thinks, Schoen didn't make it perfectly clear he had final say and did not get a promise on that from Mara before taking the job, you're crazy.
it's definitely everyone else. EVERYTHING has been changed multiple times over the course of the past 10 years...
The players
The coordinators
The coaches
The GMs
It's probably not the constants in this little experiment.
To me 4 and 5 are the most ridiculous statements on the whole thread. 4. "Implicit influence that might be there" HUH?
5. "Subconsciously influenced Joe" Double HUH?
Well, I guess that proves the Mara meddling people on this board right.
Mara has been a disaster for the last decade for one primary reason: He's hired the wrong people and he hasn't stuck with a plan when it's been hard (McAdoo/Manning benching).
I don't waste time bitching about the owner because it isn't changing. The Giants are a family run business and will remain a family run business. Maybe they can take some pointers from the Steelers.
But, if the Giants draft Jayden Daniels or someone similar and he works with Daboll, things can turn around fast. And then we won't hear about the owner.
My biggest criticism is the loyalty to the QB's. This is where Mara needs to harden up. arniefez made the point which is just shocking - in the past decade, the Giants have only had two primary starting QB's. Given how awful they've been, that's really incredible.
You can criticize Mara for being afraid of chaos at QB and I think seeing Eli's career here really emphasized that.
it's definitely everyone else. EVERYTHING has been changed multiple times over the course of the past 10 years...
The players
The coordinators
The coaches
The GMs
It's probably not the constants in this little experiment.
Yup there it is.. thats what I was expecting...
Did you see me say that I think Mara has done a great job?
Nope..
But I realize one thing.. the owner is NOT going anywhere... accept that.. deal with it..
The ONE thing that I feel he finally did correctly was go OUTSIDE of his little window and comfort zone in terms of hiring..
Now where that goes remains to be seen...
But NOWHERE did you see me say he has done a BANGER of a job..
so yeah Reading is Fundamental.
Not only that, but it's usually 100% speculation
Nor do the people within the organization that are family.
That part, as they say, "is what it is."
But let's not pretend that Schoen has free reign to call the shots. There are certainly people within the organization that are near him constantly to make sure he's aware of what his boss' wishes are.
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In comment 16314090 blueblood said:
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"we have done everything possible to screw this kid up"
is ANYONE claiming that the point he made was not true..
Three different coaches, 4 different OCs. No weapons to work with, One of the WORST offensive lines of all time. Barkley always hurt...
I mean really is what he said out of line? Now those things could be true AND Jones still couldnt be the right guy.. But to think that someone put undue influence on Schoen to keep the QB is ridiculous...
Its just fans venting...
And I have said this for a long time.. 90% of the people have NEVER even looked at Chris Mara OR Tim McDonnell's background or resume.. they just cry nepotism..
it's not that what he said wasn't true, it's that he chose to say it to everyone publicly.
Who gives a crap that he said it publicly? It doesnt change anything.. only in the minds of this nuthouse of a fanbase.
It gave expectations of what to come (Jones staying) before a decision could even be discussed with his newly hired GM. It also took away negotiating leverage from JS.
Mara's public comments have undercut his GM. It absolutely changes things
He's not mature enough to accept objective evaluations of homegrown talent.
If that is what you want to believe.....
(1) They tell you it isn't true.
(2) Simply raising the question makes you some sort of crazy person.
(3) Even though it's not true, so what? He owns the team.
Make of that what you will.
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you right bluebloods...
it's definitely everyone else. EVERYTHING has been changed multiple times over the course of the past 10 years...
The players
The coordinators
The coaches
The GMs
It's probably not the constants in this little experiment.
Yup there it is.. thats what I was expecting...
Did you see me say that I think Mara has done a great job?
Nope..
But I realize one thing.. the owner is NOT going anywhere... accept that.. deal with it..
The ONE thing that I feel he finally did correctly was go OUTSIDE of his little window and comfort zone in terms of hiring..
Now where that goes remains to be seen...
But NOWHERE did you see me say he has done a BANGER of a job..
so yeah Reading is Fundamental.
You didn't, nor did I say you did.
But you did write this: And I have said this for a long time.. 90% of the people have NEVER even looked at Chris Mara OR Tim McDonnell's background or resume.. they just cry nepotism..
I looked - it's nepotism. I don't know what their jobs are, as in, what the descriptions are, but it would seem that based on the article Chris Mara WAS heavily involved in personnel decisions and Tim M. is NOW more involved in personnel decisions...yet somehow they are a part of the remaining few that survived the different "front office reconfigurations" over the past 10 years...how is that not nepotism...whatever their jobs are - they haven't been good at them for the past decade...right?
There is no fucking way their feelings are NOT known.
It is your fucking baby.
That, said it could be something difficult.
I really like Daniel, and hope he does well, but ultimately it is your call, if you choose him and fail it is your ass.
It would be nice if we could be around Daniel
It is a tough job.
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In comment 16314091 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16314090 blueblood said:
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"we have done everything possible to screw this kid up"
is ANYONE claiming that the point he made was not true..
Three different coaches, 4 different OCs. No weapons to work with, One of the WORST offensive lines of all time. Barkley always hurt...
I mean really is what he said out of line? Now those things could be true AND Jones still couldnt be the right guy.. But to think that someone put undue influence on Schoen to keep the QB is ridiculous...
Its just fans venting...
And I have said this for a long time.. 90% of the people have NEVER even looked at Chris Mara OR Tim McDonnell's background or resume.. they just cry nepotism..
it's not that what he said wasn't true, it's that he chose to say it to everyone publicly.
Who gives a crap that he said it publicly? It doesnt change anything.. only in the minds of this nuthouse of a fanbase.
It gave expectations of what to come (Jones staying) before a decision could even be discussed with his newly hired GM. It also took away negotiating leverage from JS.
Mara's public comments have undercut his GM. It absolutely changes things
So where was the Mara undue influence on Daniel Jones staying when Schoen passed on the 5th year option?
Was Mara asleep at the "influence switch" that particular day?
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In comment 16314053 ThomasG said:
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Chris doesn't do anything and Tim basically handles logistics for Schoen's meetings and scouting trips.
And you know this how?
Comments John has made, and from others in the building. Tim sends out texts as well so there's that.
So to be clear, Chris Mara never had much of a role, but he has "taken a step back" from that do-nothing role?
Got it.
And in the absence of compelling evidence for what they want to believe, they are content to speak it into existence. It's smack dab in the center of their vision boards.
(1) They tell you it isn't true.
(2) Simply raising the question makes you some sort of crazy person.
(3) Even though it's not true, so what? He owns the team.
Make of that what you will.
Interestingly, what I've noticed about those who claim Mara IS involved in personnel matters is this:
(1) They tell you it is true.
(2) Simply raising the question makes you some sort of crazy person.
(3) Even though it's true, so what? He owns the team.
Make of that what you will as well.
(1) They tell you it isn't true.
(2) Simply raising the question makes you some sort of crazy person.
(3) Even though it's not true, so what? He owns the team.
Make of that what you will.
If you listen to Papa on his podcasts, he’s resembling #1 and #2 more and more..
Except if you extend back to a decade and a half and you realize those extra 5 years produced 2 Super Bowls largely on the back of a decision made directly by this same owner.
Be pissed about the last 10 years all you want, but big picture, John Mara's results stack up much better than many around the league.
There is no denying that the Giants as an organization, have a core belief set that at times can work against the progress they're trying to make. They're conservative to a fault, but they prioritize things like "family" even amongst their employees, stability and loyalty.
Yet somehow, the Maras (and John has contributed to this) are owners of a franchise resume that is the envy of most in the NFL.
Chris Mara
Senior Player Personnel Executive, Board Director
That sure as hell doesn't sound like he "doesn't have much involvement".
One bad mistake does not just go away, it lingers and sometimes causes other mistakes and so on and so forth. I think the Giants front office and coaches made some big mistakes because of desperation and it can take a long while to dig out of hole caused by those mistakes, assuming no other big mistakes were being made in the present.
Let us look at some of the big player acquisitions that ended up being big mistakes in hindsight that really hurt the team
Erik Flowers - first round pick, huge miss on a much needed OL to start a late rebuild of an OL
Eli Apple - first round pick, first round picks are typically always big misses because those players are counted on as being foundational players
Huge free agent spending spree in 2016 - a lot of bad contracts here which lead to some real cap issues
Gettleman misjudging the roster - Big time mistake here, considered the Giants to still be in 'contender' status when they needed a complete rebuild.
Saquon Barkley - misjudging the roster lead to this mistake of drafting a player #2 overall that was more of a luxury pick for a team that had real needs.
The Daniel Jones miss - can't fault them for taking a quarterback, but a sixth pick is still a huge miss especially considering the time put into Jones. I would say the horrid state of the roster complicated the evaluation of Jones at quarterback.
Kadarious Toney miss - The Giants were able to retrieve an extra first round pick from the bears, but where would the Giants be if the player they picked at Toney's spot would have been a foundational player?
Various contracts - that lead to more cap problems (Kenny Golladay, Nate Solder)
Did Mara heavily influence these decisions?
Did the Giants front office and coaches make big mistakes out of desperation that hurt the franchise for years to come?
Perhaps ownership and the front office and coaches were align in these big misses.
I lean that a couple of GM's, (Reece, Gettleman), several coaches (coughlin, mac, Shurmur, Judge) made some awful decisions that are still hurting the team
I've made my views on this quite public. By their job titles alone, the family has influence. The question is how how much influence and did it decline with the hiring of Schoen and Daboll? We don't know the answer to that. The reporters don't know the answer to that.
But we do know that John Mara has publicly commented on high-profile players. We don't know what he said behind closed doors, but we do know what he tells reporters. And he does tell reporters his views on personnel.
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In comment 16314098 blueblood said:
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In comment 16314091 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16314090 blueblood said:
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"we have done everything possible to screw this kid up"
is ANYONE claiming that the point he made was not true..
Three different coaches, 4 different OCs. No weapons to work with, One of the WORST offensive lines of all time. Barkley always hurt...
I mean really is what he said out of line? Now those things could be true AND Jones still couldnt be the right guy.. But to think that someone put undue influence on Schoen to keep the QB is ridiculous...
Its just fans venting...
And I have said this for a long time.. 90% of the people have NEVER even looked at Chris Mara OR Tim McDonnell's background or resume.. they just cry nepotism..
it's not that what he said wasn't true, it's that he chose to say it to everyone publicly.
Who gives a crap that he said it publicly? It doesnt change anything.. only in the minds of this nuthouse of a fanbase.
It gave expectations of what to come (Jones staying) before a decision could even be discussed with his newly hired GM. It also took away negotiating leverage from JS.
Mara's public comments have undercut his GM. It absolutely changes things
So where was the Mara undue influence on Daniel Jones staying when Schoen passed on the 5th year option?
Was Mara asleep at the "influence switch" that particular day?
Mara does have the capacity to make decisions that are contrary to his personal desires such as benching Eli and firing Judge. I'm sure a compelling argument was made for declining the option. I'm not so sure Jones one good season should have changed the argument that much.
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In comment 16314133 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16314098 blueblood said:
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In comment 16314091 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16314090 blueblood said:
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"we have done everything possible to screw this kid up"
is ANYONE claiming that the point he made was not true..
Three different coaches, 4 different OCs. No weapons to work with, One of the WORST offensive lines of all time. Barkley always hurt...
I mean really is what he said out of line? Now those things could be true AND Jones still couldnt be the right guy.. But to think that someone put undue influence on Schoen to keep the QB is ridiculous...
Its just fans venting...
And I have said this for a long time.. 90% of the people have NEVER even looked at Chris Mara OR Tim McDonnell's background or resume.. they just cry nepotism..
it's not that what he said wasn't true, it's that he chose to say it to everyone publicly.
Who gives a crap that he said it publicly? It doesnt change anything.. only in the minds of this nuthouse of a fanbase.
It gave expectations of what to come (Jones staying) before a decision could even be discussed with his newly hired GM. It also took away negotiating leverage from JS.
Mara's public comments have undercut his GM. It absolutely changes things
So where was the Mara undue influence on Daniel Jones staying when Schoen passed on the 5th year option?
Was Mara asleep at the "influence switch" that particular day?
Mara does have the capacity to make decisions that are contrary to his personal desires such as benching Eli and firing Judge. I'm sure a compelling argument was made for declining the option. I'm not so sure Jones one good season should have changed the argument that much.
Look, no offense but you are playing the hokey-pokey now. If you felt Mara undercut his GM on the decision to keep Jones then Schoen should have had his hand forced to exercise the option. He didn't though.
I don't think you correct at all but at least be consistent with argument.
is ANYONE claiming that the point he made was not true..
Three different coaches, 4 different OCs. No weapons to work with, One of the WORST offensive lines of all time. Barkley always hurt...
I mean really is what he said out of line? Now those things could be true AND Jones still couldnt be the right guy.. But to think that someone put undue influence on Schoen to keep the QB is ridiculous...
Its just fans venting...
And I have said this for a long time.. 90% of the people have NEVER even looked at Chris Mara OR Tim McDonnell's background or resume.. they just cry nepotism..
Your sensible post won't go well with the group that's buying the subliminal psychological theory Duggan's trying to sell, that Mara is controlling through mental manipulation. Basically that's what he's saying in 4 and 5.
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"we have done everything possible to screw this kid up"
is ANYONE claiming that the point he made was not true..
Three different coaches, 4 different OCs. No weapons to work with, One of the WORST offensive lines of all time. Barkley always hurt...
I mean really is what he said out of line? Now those things could be true AND Jones still couldnt be the right guy.. But to think that someone put undue influence on Schoen to keep the QB is ridiculous...
Its just fans venting...
And I have said this for a long time.. 90% of the people have NEVER even looked at Chris Mara OR Tim McDonnell's background or resume.. they just cry nepotism..
Your sensible post won't go well with the group that's buying the subliminal psychological theory Duggan's trying to sell, that Mara is controlling through mental manipulation. Basically that's what he's saying in 4 and 5.
Have you ever worked in business? You don't think owners, bosses, corporate or political authority figures can convey their desires without a direct order?
If this is you, you're pretty naive.
He can do whatever he wants, he owns the team. But anyone who thinks that the GM can just openly defy the owner's very public opinions is either being naive, obtuse, or simply has never actually kept a job.
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In comment 16314098 blueblood said:
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In comment 16314091 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16314090 blueblood said:
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"we have done everything possible to screw this kid up"
is ANYONE claiming that the point he made was not true..
Three different coaches, 4 different OCs. No weapons to work with, One of the WORST offensive lines of all time. Barkley always hurt...
I mean really is what he said out of line? Now those things could be true AND Jones still couldnt be the right guy.. But to think that someone put undue influence on Schoen to keep the QB is ridiculous...
Its just fans venting...
And I have said this for a long time.. 90% of the people have NEVER even looked at Chris Mara OR Tim McDonnell's background or resume.. they just cry nepotism..
it's not that what he said wasn't true, it's that he chose to say it to everyone publicly.
Who gives a crap that he said it publicly? It doesnt change anything.. only in the minds of this nuthouse of a fanbase.
It gave expectations of what to come (Jones staying) before a decision could even be discussed with his newly hired GM. It also took away negotiating leverage from JS.
Mara's public comments have undercut his GM. It absolutely changes things
So where was the Mara undue influence on Daniel Jones staying when Schoen passed on the 5th year option?
Was Mara asleep at the "influence switch" that particular day?
Great point !
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In comment 16314146 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16314133 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16314098 blueblood said:
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In comment 16314091 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16314090 blueblood said:
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"we have done everything possible to screw this kid up"
is ANYONE claiming that the point he made was not true..
Three different coaches, 4 different OCs. No weapons to work with, One of the WORST offensive lines of all time. Barkley always hurt...
I mean really is what he said out of line? Now those things could be true AND Jones still couldnt be the right guy.. But to think that someone put undue influence on Schoen to keep the QB is ridiculous...
Its just fans venting...
And I have said this for a long time.. 90% of the people have NEVER even looked at Chris Mara OR Tim McDonnell's background or resume.. they just cry nepotism..
it's not that what he said wasn't true, it's that he chose to say it to everyone publicly.
Who gives a crap that he said it publicly? It doesnt change anything.. only in the minds of this nuthouse of a fanbase.
It gave expectations of what to come (Jones staying) before a decision could even be discussed with his newly hired GM. It also took away negotiating leverage from JS.
Mara's public comments have undercut his GM. It absolutely changes things
So where was the Mara undue influence on Daniel Jones staying when Schoen passed on the 5th year option?
Was Mara asleep at the "influence switch" that particular day?
Mara does have the capacity to make decisions that are contrary to his personal desires such as benching Eli and firing Judge. I'm sure a compelling argument was made for declining the option. I'm not so sure Jones one good season should have changed the argument that much.
Look, no offense but you are playing the hokey-pokey now. If you felt Mara undercut his GM on the decision to keep Jones then Schoen should have had his hand forced to exercise the option. He didn't though.
I don't think you correct at all but at least be consistent with argument.
John Mara is inconsistent. He gives the okay to bench Eli and then fires the guys who he said okay to.
He gives the okay to not exercise the 5YO and then Jones has a career year and is convinced he should stay. And Jones camp certainty leveraged his comments for their advantage.
There's no hokey pokey here, Mara is NOT George Steinbrenner or Jerry Jones in that he lords over the organization and it's his way or the highway. He does let emotion take over though and it comes out in his public comments that do nothing but make his GMs job harder.
I've made my views on this quite public. By their job titles alone, the family has influence. The question is how how much influence and did it decline with the hiring of Schoen and Daboll? We don't know the answer to that. The reporters don't know the answer to that.
But we do know that John Mara has publicly commented on high-profile players. We don't know what he said behind closed doors, but we do know what he tells reporters. And he does tell reporters his views on personnel.
Seems like fans got everything they wanted in a true outside football hire in Schoen as GM. Then they also got Schoen doing HC interviews and selecting his guy Daboll. Two rising stars in the NFL. Some folks have been turned over as well in the building and some titles changed. And when the Giants were winning in 2022 there was no indication of foul play by the family, but now in a bad 2023 losing season it all comes back.
Believe what you want. You're getting all tied up knots to wind up in the same place...Schoen and Daboll are running the football operations and they report to the CEO/Owner.
So with that said,I think it takes a lot more than labels and gossiping about what might've occurred during a trade or a signing in order to prove the Mara's stay out of things.
And owners also report to Schoen.
Do you think Schoen has the authority to fire or otherwise discipline Chris and Tim? Could he put either on a PIP?
They don't belong in the org chart at all, except in their ownership role only. And if you don't believe me, ask George Young why he blocked Chris Mara from a personnel role (back when the Giants actually had a football exec with real autonomy):
He’s not the GM in waiting. He’s the team President in waiting. Not that hard to figure out.
Chris Mara
Senior Player Personnel Executive, Board Director
That sure as hell doesn't sound like he "doesn't have much involvement".
If you’re following along he may have a fancy title but he, along with Abrams, were clearly reassigned and sidelined relative to their previous positions with Schoen’s arrival.
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Believe what you want. You're getting all tied up knots to wind up in the same place...Schoen and Daboll are running the football operations and they report to the CEO/Owner.
And owners also report to Schoen.
Do you think Schoen has the authority to fire or otherwise discipline Chris and Tim? Could he put either on a PIP?
They don't belong in the org chart at all, except in their ownership role only. And if you don't believe me, ask George Young why he blocked Chris Mara from a personnel role (back when the Giants actually had a football exec with real autonomy):
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When Young blocked Chris’ ascension to head of player personnel — “We can’t have any fire-proof heads of player personnel,” Young said, according to Accorsi’s biography
I don't think those two belong in that org chart as well. But my view is that it doesn't matter either in what Schoen and Daboll are responsible for and how they conduct their jobs. Imo.
Haters going to hate.
So where was the Mara undue influence on Daniel Jones staying when Schoen passed on the 5th year option?
Was Mara asleep at the "influence switch" that particular day?
As ever, this is an oversimplification of what was likely a much more detailed conversation and process given the circumstances.
When Joe Schoen was hired as GM, Daniel Jones was coming off a poor season and a neck injury. His conversations with the owner would certainly have included how to handle Jones moving forward, with the first question being whether or not to pick up the 5th year option.
Schoen undoubtedly would have come to the discussion with a series of potential options, and contingency plans that covered possible scenarios. One such scenario would surely have accounted for the possibility that they would decline the 5th year option, but could still retain Jones IF his health and performance improved in 2022. They would have discussed the franchise tag, and the opportunity to sign him long term.
Point being, Joe Schoen and John Mara could very well have come to an understanding that merely refusing to pick up the 5th year option doesn't mean they couldn't keep Jones after 2022 if they wanted to. That is far more relevant to the discussion of the owner/GM conversation than your condescending, simplistic dismissal of the very idea that Mara has influence.
Mara is the owner, if you don't think he can (and does) influence decisions, you must be the most naive person on the planet. When Schoen and Mara convened after last season, a season in which John Mara proudly proclaimed "WE'RE BACK!" after the playoff win, discussions would no doubt return to the topic of Jones, with Mara undoubtedly preferring to keep him (and Barkley) coming off what he clearly believed to be a successful season.
How do we know that's what Mara preferred? He fucking told everyone in the world a million times.
Listen, it's his goddamn team, he can do what he wants with it, but you people pretending like he's not involved when you can't walk 10 feet in that office without running into someone in the Mara "family" (either by birth or because that honor was bestowed upon them by someone in the bloodline) is absurd.
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Is worrisome. If I’m Schoen, I’d be careful with that guy. Hopefully he’s not “GM in waiting”..he’d have that job for life…
He’s not the GM in waiting. He’s the team President in waiting. Not that hard to figure out.
So, he's potentially Schoen's future boss. That's a lot better.
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So where was the Mara undue influence on Daniel Jones staying when Schoen passed on the 5th year option?
Was Mara asleep at the "influence switch" that particular day?
As ever, this is an oversimplification of what was likely a much more detailed conversation and process given the circumstances.
When Joe Schoen was hired as GM, Daniel Jones was coming off a poor season and a neck injury. His conversations with the owner would certainly have included how to handle Jones moving forward, with the first question being whether or not to pick up the 5th year option.
Schoen undoubtedly would have come to the discussion with a series of potential options, and contingency plans that covered possible scenarios. One such scenario would surely have accounted for the possibility that they would decline the 5th year option, but could still retain Jones IF his health and performance improved in 2022. They would have discussed the franchise tag, and the opportunity to sign him long term.
Point being, Joe Schoen and John Mara could very well have come to an understanding that merely refusing to pick up the 5th year option doesn't mean they couldn't keep Jones after 2022 if they wanted to. That is far more relevant to the discussion of the owner/GM conversation than your condescending, simplistic dismissal of the very idea that Mara has influence.
Mara is the owner, if you don't think he can (and does) influence decisions, you must be the most naive person on the planet. When Schoen and Mara convened after last season, a season in which John Mara proudly proclaimed "WE'RE BACK!" after the playoff win, discussions would no doubt return to the topic of Jones, with Mara undoubtedly preferring to keep him (and Barkley) coming off what he clearly believed to be a successful season.
How do we know that's what Mara preferred? He fucking told everyone in the world a million times.
Listen, it's his goddamn team, he can do what he wants with it, but you people pretending like he's not involved when you can't walk 10 feet in that office without running into someone in the Mara "family" (either by birth or because that honor was bestowed upon them by someone in the bloodline) is absurd.
I don't really disagree with much, if anything, regarding what likely went down with Jones 5th year option decision as you described above.
It also wasn't what I was replying to another poster about, which was when he intimated Mara clearly put undue influence on Schoen regarding the decision to keep Jones.
And apologies for oversimplifying. I was only thinking of the readers on the thread. :-)
I think Schoen and Daboll made their decision when it came to Jones and Barkley and the rest of the roster decisions. Mara was involved, but Schoen and Daboll were hired to make these decisions.
I think Schoen and Daboll made their decision when it came to Jones and Barkley and the rest of the roster decisions. Mara was involved, but Schoen and Daboll were hired to make these decisions.
Yep. They were always both going to be back. Schoen prioritizes QB over RB, so Jones got the money. Barkley the tag.
The owner will have opinions, it's up to Schoen to manage those opinions and do what's best for the franchise. The ownership influence is higher when it comes to HC, QB, etc.
The issue isn't meddling, the issue is winning.
The Giants were planning to re-sign Jones before the end of last season. Daboll said virtually the entire season - before Mara weighed in - that Jones was doing everything they wanted him to do and that they were very happy with him. Schoen said right after the playoff loss (if not before) that they wanted to re-sign him.
To think Mara liking Jones as a person influenced those two guys in a decision that would likely determine their future employment (not just here, but elsewhere if they get fired) is "just fucking clueless". Any GM who makes decisions like that based on who his owner likes is doomed to not being a GM for very long.
Meddling Mara!
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Who doesn't think Mara's influence on the GM in respect to Jones and Barkley are not real are just fucking clueless. Of coarse it's there, he publicly defended Jones. Plus Schoen did not have great options other then Jones and poor draft position. Now that has changed, with the Jones injury and a horrendous start to the season with the very good draft position, everything has changed. Another thing is who is to say he is wrong about defending Jones and Barkley. I was in on Jones this season. I admit to have gone back and forth with the guy. As far as Barkley, I think the NFL has moved toward valuing running backs more after this season and I expect a Barkley deal to absolutely get done this off season abd I support it now. I was fine franchise tagging him this past year. Niw I want to give him a 4 year 40 mil type deal with an out the forth year. So Mara's support toward both guys is understandable. Buy to try and say ge has no influence, that is plain stupid. Do I think he oversteps his authority, absolutely not.
The Giants were planning to re-sign Jones before the end of last season. Daboll said virtually the entire season - before Mara weighed in - that Jones was doing everything they wanted him to do and that they were very happy with him. Schoen said right after the playoff loss (if not before) that they wanted to re-sign him.
To think Mara liking Jones as a person influenced those two guys in a decision that would likely determine their future employment (not just here, but elsewhere if they get fired) is "just fucking clueless". Any GM who makes decisions like that based on who his owner likes is doomed to not being a GM for very long.
Nonsense. There is no compelling evidence one way or the other what the Giants were planning to do with Jones prior to the end of last season. Public platitudes are evidence of nothing.
I think we can all admit he exerts some influence because he owns the team, and everyone making football decisions ultimately reports to him. Employees like the coach and GM he is also personally involved in hiring. We also know that he makes his opinion on certain players known publicly. That is some level of influence. Whether it is an appropriate or inappropriate amount is a matter of opinion.
We also know Mara has said publicly that Schoen makes the calls on personnel. I am sure he means that I am pretty sure he is not in the draft room yelling "take the sfaety from Alabama with our next pick." But that is not the only kind of influence that can be applied.
I don't think Mara intends to influence what Schoen does, I think he just answers questions he asked honestly. However, if you are Joe Schoen you would have to be an idiot to not consider those views (even if you go another direction) when you make decisions on high profile players.
I think Schoen and Daboll made their decision when it came to Jones and Barkley and the rest of the roster decisions. Mara was involved, but Schoen and Daboll were hired to make these decisions.
I agree with this because Schoen was not baptized it the Giants Way like his predecessors Gettleman, Reese, Accorsi.
Mara - maybe compelled by Tisch - was motivated to go outside the walls of 1925 Giants Way and find an independent voice for GM. That was a good thing, and Schoen was hired.
So, I need to see/hear more evidence before I am convinced that Mara is wedging himself in personnel decisions like he did with Reese and Gettleman. I'm not ruling it out, but Schoen at least gives the impression that he's firmly ensconced in the captain's chair.
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I think Schoen and Daboll made their decision when it came to Jones and Barkley and the rest of the roster decisions. Mara was involved, but Schoen and Daboll were hired to make these decisions.
I agree with this because Schoen was not baptized it the Giants Way like his predecessors Gettleman, Reese, Accorsi.
Mara - maybe compelled by Tisch - was motivated to go outside the walls of 1925 Giants Way and find an independent voice for GM. That was a good thing, and Schoen was hired.
So, I need to see/hear more evidence before I am convinced that Mara is wedging himself in personnel decisions like he did with Reese and Gettleman. I'm not ruling it out, but Schoen at least gives the impression that he's firmly ensconced in the captain's chair.
Right, (although we disagree on Mara's power of influence with Reese and Gettleman) I don't rule it out either. It doesn't add up to me (aka Mr Fense Sitter :) that Mara is overstepping with player acquisitions or the coaching staff.
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let's also not forget that, at least according to the NY Giants home page, my man is walking around with business cards that read:
Chris Mara
Senior Player Personnel Executive, Board Director
That sure as hell doesn't sound like he "doesn't have much involvement".
If you’re following along he may have a fancy title but he, along with Abrams, were clearly reassigned and sidelined relative to their previous positions with Schoen’s arrival.
Ok - I'll play.
Tell me what his role used to be and how it's different now?
And even if he's "not as much involved" what exactly does that mean in regard to level of involvement before and after?
And sure - there's lot's of people that labelled Assistant to the Director - President of mail sorting...it doesn't sound like that's what he used to be...and it's not like he's not involved completely these days.
Meddling Mara!
Meddling Mara existed long before Joe Schoen.
Welcome to the real world.
MARA WANTS TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. He wants to be seen as an owner who keeps hands off, while being involved in all big decisions.
Exactly. Some dullards on this website prefer to put on blinders because they don't want to acknowledge this reality.
Haters going to hate.
Owners of any company can do whatever they want with their company - comment as they see fit, get involved where they choose, insert their brother and nephew into the senior management hierarchy, whatever.
And customers of those companies can have whatever opinion of that owner that they want, and it doesn't mean that they have to boycott the company just because they think the owner is a dweeb.
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Then go find a team whose owner is never seen, never asked questions, and never responds to them. You probably can't find one.
Haters going to hate.
Owners of any company can do whatever they want with their company - comment as they see fit, get involved where they choose, insert their brother and nephew into the senior management hierarchy, whatever.
And customers of those companies can have whatever opinion of that owner that they want, and it doesn't mean that they have to boycott the company just because they think the owner is a dweeb.
EXACTLY - thank you.
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Is worrisome. If I’m Schoen, I’d be careful with that guy. Hopefully he’s not “GM in waiting”..he’d have that job for life…
He’s not the GM in waiting. He’s the team President in waiting. Not that hard to figure out.
Its like people dont understand that these are FAMILY businesses.
Steelers-Rooney
Chiefs-Hunt
Raiders-Davis
Bears-Halas McAskey
Cowboys-Jones
We just scream love to scream NEPOTISM !!!!
MY dad has a business. I have worked in my field for years and now I am training in his field to take over that business one day.. is that Nepotism or is it an inheritance?
From what I have seen and read both Chris Mara And Tim McDonnell worked outside the organization before joining the Giants. McDonnell worked as a scout for six years and according to what I have seen STILL does scouting..
So if a person DOES THE WORK, to work in the family business to eventually take over the family business..
why is that a bad thing ??
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of what he thanks.. OMG.. it's the end of the world...
He can do whatever he wants, he owns the team. But anyone who thinks that the GM can just openly defy the owner's very public opinions is either being naive, obtuse, or simply has never actually kept a job.
Yup. If Mara signs the paychecks, it is best to listen to the owner otherwise you won't have a job very long.
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I never called someone a conspiracy theorist for saying Mara has no influence in personnel matters. I've seen no other poster call someone a conspiracy theorist for doing the same.
I've made my views on this quite public. By their job titles alone, the family has influence. The question is how how much influence and did it decline with the hiring of Schoen and Daboll? We don't know the answer to that. The reporters don't know the answer to that.
But we do know that John Mara has publicly commented on high-profile players. We don't know what he said behind closed doors, but we do know what he tells reporters. And he does tell reporters his views on personnel.
Seems like fans got everything they wanted in a true outside football hire in Schoen as GM. Then they also got Schoen doing HC interviews and selecting his guy Daboll. Two rising stars in the NFL. Some folks have been turned over as well in the building and some titles changed. And when the Giants were winning in 2022 there was no indication of foul play by the family, but now in a bad 2023 losing season it all comes back.
Believe what you want. You're getting all tied up knots to wind up in the same place...Schoen and Daboll are running the football operations and they report to the CEO/Owner.
I suspect Schoen and Daboll are calling the shots.
But I am not convinced they have final say.
I don't think that is a radical position to take.
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Then go find a team whose owner is never seen, never asked questions, and never responds to them. You probably can't find one.
Haters going to hate.
Owners of any company can do whatever they want with their company - comment as they see fit, get involved where they choose, insert their brother and nephew into the senior management hierarchy, whatever.
And customers of those companies can have whatever opinion of that owner that they want, and it doesn't mean that they have to boycott the company just because they think the owner is a dweeb.
The discussion on ownership is an exercise in futility
It s not changing. Nor is the reality that owners have and share opinions, I sure as hell would
It s not like the Giants under the ownership of the Mara’s is devoid of any success
But if people want to waste their time with this topic I guess this is the place to do it
Tim has worked his way up learning football, no different that Schoen has. He has been in the football world 16 years as a non player including 6 as a scout and 8 in the NFL total. He is eventually going to be the top guy on the Mara side
What professional team in any sport hires a person, however qualified, to work in a different organization that is related to the owner of your competitor.
By some peoples rationale here, no family members should be involved in the family business - there are millions of businesses out there that are family run and go through good/bad cycles and still have family running them
Is it not smart to have someone in the family learn from the bottom up if he is to ultimately be co-owner of the family business
Tim has worked his way up learning football, no different that Schoen has. He has been in the football world 16 years as a non player including 6 as a scout and 8 in the NFL total. He is eventually going to be the top guy on the Mara side
What professional team in any sport hires a person, however qualified, to work in a different organization that is related to the owner of your competitor.
By some peoples rationale here, no family members should be involved in the family business - there are millions of businesses out there that are family run and go through good/bad cycles and still have family running them
Is it not smart to have someone in the family learn from the bottom up if he is to ultimately be co-owner of the family business
This is all fair. However, just because you "worked your way up", it does not mean you are good at your job.
Dave Gettleman "worked his way up" too. So did Jerry Reese.
From what I have seen and read both Chris Mara And Tim McDonnell worked outside the organization before joining the Giants. McDonnell worked as a scout for six years and according to what I have seen STILL does scouting..
So if a person DOES THE WORK, to work in the family business to eventually take over the family business..
why is that a bad thing ??
Can they be fired?
How is their performance judged?
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From what I have seen and read both Chris Mara And Tim McDonnell worked outside the organization before joining the Giants. McDonnell worked as a scout for six years and according to what I have seen STILL does scouting..
So if a person DOES THE WORK, to work in the family business to eventually take over the family business..
why is that a bad thing ??
Can they be fired?
How is their performance judged?
This is the heart of it right here. It is fine to have family working in a family business - if they are good at it. If they aren't, can they be moved out like everyone who is not related would be, or does the company just suffer?
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the problem you have here is people believe that a family run organization should have no family members involved, even if that person has worked their way up like many other non family members/
Tim has worked his way up learning football, no different that Schoen has. He has been in the football world 16 years as a non player including 6 as a scout and 8 in the NFL total. He is eventually going to be the top guy on the Mara side
What professional team in any sport hires a person, however qualified, to work in a different organization that is related to the owner of your competitor.
By some peoples rationale here, no family members should be involved in the family business - there are millions of businesses out there that are family run and go through good/bad cycles and still have family running them
Is it not smart to have someone in the family learn from the bottom up if he is to ultimately be co-owner of the family business
This is all fair. However, just because you "worked your way up", it does not mean you are good at your job.
Dave Gettleman "worked his way up" too. So did Jerry Reese.
You are correct it doesnt guarantee success or that you are good at your job..
But you have to at least put in the work...
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In comment 16314197 UberAlias said:
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Then go find a team whose owner is never seen, never asked questions, and never responds to them. You probably can't find one.
Haters going to hate.
Owners of any company can do whatever they want with their company - comment as they see fit, get involved where they choose, insert their brother and nephew into the senior management hierarchy, whatever.
And customers of those companies can have whatever opinion of that owner that they want, and it doesn't mean that they have to boycott the company just because they think the owner is a dweeb.
The discussion on ownership is an exercise in futility
It s not changing. Nor is the reality that owners have and share opinions, I sure as hell would
It s not like the Giants under the ownership of the Mara’s is devoid of any success
But if people want to waste their time with this topic I guess this is the place to do it
Great post.
I'll will add that ownership might make changes if it hurt them in the wallet. With the stadium basically sold out with thousands of willing buyers behind any dissatisfied customers, these changes in management won't be coming soon.
Also, I believe John Mara wants the Giants to be successful. Does anybody here know for sure about Mara's football IQ? I mean, he is the owner of the Giants and have been around the team for a few decades. His dad Wellington was a scout for the team for years.
I love the Giants and I have been watching them for 47 years. My 26 year old son is a Giants fan as well. He knows a lot more about the game and he does some scouting of players before every draft. He might actually be a good scout if he dicided to to that for a living.
Do either of us know more about football than John Mara? Probably not but I think we'd like to think so.
Mara may get attached to players like Barkley and who can really blame him. High Character, likeable, really good player when healthy. Jones is easy to like and root for and he did have a very good year in 2022. You would like to think the arrow is pointing up on Jones.
To expect an owner to not have any input on key players is obsurd.
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From what I have seen and read both Chris Mara And Tim McDonnell worked outside the organization before joining the Giants. McDonnell worked as a scout for six years and according to what I have seen STILL does scouting..
So if a person DOES THE WORK, to work in the family business to eventually take over the family business..
why is that a bad thing ??
Can they be fired?
How is their performance judged?
Can they be fired.. sure...
How is the performance judged? No one outside the orgaziation knows knows. And that is a reality that exists in every family business.
Hell I dont know how people judge performance across the board on MY job LOL
What was Mara's role in this on the offensive side that changed the performance of that side of the ball this year.
QB, RB's, OL, TE's, WR's
Then all the coaches?
I'm staying away from the QB spot. I will just add that QB played 5.25 games and AT played one of those and SB 2.25 with Jones.
The three most important players who also had the three best performances last season were DJ, AT and SB.
Not really seeing a lot of meddling unless you are going saying the draft picks and FA additions/subtractions are Mara influenced. I think BD/JS are running things.
With all the speculation on the coaches/OL this season maybe more attention should be placed elsewhere imv. Did Mara also interfere with the teams prep in camp?
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In comment 16314264 blueblood said:
Quote:
From what I have seen and read both Chris Mara And Tim McDonnell worked outside the organization before joining the Giants. McDonnell worked as a scout for six years and according to what I have seen STILL does scouting..
So if a person DOES THE WORK, to work in the family business to eventually take over the family business..
why is that a bad thing ??
Can they be fired?
How is their performance judged?
Can they be fired.. sure...
How is the performance judged? No one outside the orgaziation knows knows. And that is a reality that exists in every family business.
Hell I dont know how people judge performance across the board on MY job LOL
Then your job is amateur hour.
Real companies have performance reviews, merit bonuses, etc.
As for Chris and Tim getting fired, how can you say that either of them is fireable? Chris has basically (supposedly) had all of his authority stripped from him, but still retains his vanity title. For what purpose? It's because he's just as much an owner as his brother, the team president, is. And their nephew also has implied ownership stake - he also can't be fired.
Nothing about the Giants' front office operations have improved since Chris and Tim took on senior leadership roles. If they had different DNA, they'd be under the microscope, as any senior executive on a flagging team should be. But neither of them can be removed from the organization; the only thing that can be done is the company has to build up separate organizational hierarchies to sidestep the owner/execs when necessary. Every time that happens, it muddies the water for all actual employees who are just trying to genuinely do the best job that they can. That's the problem.
It probably would have been easier if you had just written this most recent post earlier on so that everyone could see that you have no idea how real companies operate and could ignore your posts on the topic.
Mara saying he thinks they ruined Jones back in 2022 carries about little to no weight in who the starter is next season.
Stay with me here, you know what carries more weight in who starts next at QB next season? You ready for this one?
Whether we draft a QB and/or how Devito looks from now through next August and how well DJ is playing in September.
I know, radical.
2. Allow that GM to hire the head coach. (check)
3. Allow said GM to bring in talent beneath him from outside the organization. (check)
4. Be in front of the media less. (check) I'll add that Mara did not introduce Daboll to the media (Schoen did), in the past Mara always did this with head coaches.
The team is 4-8, so the default is to go back and bash Mara despite him doing what many people said he never would. "Well, Mara wanted to keep Judge." He didn't keep Judge. I'm not interested in speculating what could have happened. He did what we wanted.
This is an organizational failure. Everyone else is gone except ownership and their family/cronies. There's no one left for them to point the finger.
I think at this point, its fair for fans to point the finger at the only guys left.
2. Allow that GM to hire the head coach. (check)
3. Allow said GM to bring in talent beneath him from outside the organization. (check)
4. Be in front of the media less. (check) I'll add that Mara did not introduce Daboll to the media (Schoen did), in the past Mara always did this with head coaches.
The team is 4-8, so the default is to go back and bash Mara despite him doing what many people said he never would. "Well, Mara wanted to keep Judge." He didn't keep Judge. I'm not interested in speculating what could have happened. He did what we wanted.
And Sean, you left out the biggest part. The "barometer" of Mara's influence was whether or not they picked up the 5th year option on Jones.
IT's called playing the best talent on the team. Using what you got. Even the worst staffs in NFL history can and will implement this methodology.
They aren't starting Jones if a better option is on the bench. Not in 2024. And they won't eschew drafting a QB just because of some bullshit lip service Mara issued 15 months ago. Anyone thinking otherwise probably thinks Aliens shot JFK. Get a grip.
2. Allow that GM to hire the head coach. (check)
3. Allow said GM to bring in talent beneath him from outside the organization. (check)
4. Be in front of the media less. (check) I'll add that Mara did not introduce Daboll to the media (Schoen did), in the past Mara always did this with head coaches.
The team is 4-8, so the default is to go back and bash Mara despite him doing what many people said he never would. "Well, Mara wanted to keep Judge." He didn't keep Judge. I'm not interested in speculating what could have happened. He did what we wanted.
He didn't keep his mouth shut on the quarterback on the eve of contract negotiations, and that contract is currently the biggest mistake looking over this year, 2024, and 2025.
No one knows for sure whose call the Jones contract was, but someone in the building was stupid enough to ok that decision. Ultimately it falls on the owner for either influencing the decision or hiring incompetent people.
2. Allow that GM to hire the head coach. (check)
3. Allow said GM to bring in talent beneath him from outside the organization. (check)
4. Be in front of the media less. (check) I'll add that Mara did not introduce Daboll to the media (Schoen did), in the past Mara always did this with head coaches.
The team is 4-8, so the default is to go back and bash Mara despite him doing what many people said he never would. "Well, Mara wanted to keep Judge." He didn't keep Judge. I'm not interested in speculating what could have happened. He did what we wanted.
Solid.
Believe what you want. You're getting all tied up knots to wind up in the same place...Schoen and Daboll are running the football operations and they report to the CEO/Owner.
I suspect Schoen and Daboll are calling the shots.
But I am not convinced they have final say.
I don't think that is a radical position to take.
I will stipulate Mara has final say on certain bigger decisions or ones where there is rare disagreement on a personnel decision brought to him. He said as much about this last year when asked specifically.
Just hopefully you don't think he is sitting in his office waiting with some big VETO stamp and springing that on his GM/Coach in the final hour and to their complete surprise. Mara's final sign off/say means he is agreement with the strategy(ies) developed and brought or communicated to him all along or adjustments needed thereto.
(1) They tell you it isn't true.
(2) Simply raising the question makes you some sort of crazy person.
(3) Even though it's not true, so what? He owns the team.
Make of that what you will.
Pretty much. They seem to take it personally as well.
2. Allow that GM to hire the head coach. (check)
3. Allow said GM to bring in talent beneath him from outside the organization. (check)
4. Be in front of the media less. (check) I'll add that Mara did not introduce Daboll to the media (Schoen did), in the past Mara always did this with head coaches.
The team is 4-8, so the default is to go back and bash Mara despite him doing what many people said he never would. "Well, Mara wanted to keep Judge." He didn't keep Judge. I'm not interested in speculating what could have happened. He did what we wanted.
Said same thing earlier.
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1. Hire a GM from outside the organization. (check)
2. Allow that GM to hire the head coach. (check)
3. Allow said GM to bring in talent beneath him from outside the organization. (check)
4. Be in front of the media less. (check) I'll add that Mara did not introduce Daboll to the media (Schoen did), in the past Mara always did this with head coaches.
The team is 4-8, so the default is to go back and bash Mara despite him doing what many people said he never would. "Well, Mara wanted to keep Judge." He didn't keep Judge. I'm not interested in speculating what could have happened. He did what we wanted.
And Sean, you left out the biggest part. The "barometer" of Mara's influence was whether or not they picked up the 5th year option on Jones.
You know the funniest thing in my mind...
If THIS year was last year.. and last year was THIS year...
The entire fanbase would be TOTALLY different...
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In comment 16314157 Dnew15 said:
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let's also not forget that, at least according to the NY Giants home page, my man is walking around with business cards that read:
Chris Mara
Senior Player Personnel Executive, Board Director
That sure as hell doesn't sound like he "doesn't have much involvement".
If you’re following along he may have a fancy title but he, along with Abrams, were clearly reassigned and sidelined relative to their previous positions with Schoen’s arrival.
Ok - I'll play.
Tell me what his role used to be and how it's different now?
And even if he's "not as much involved" what exactly does that mean in regard to level of involvement before and after?
And sure - there's lot's of people that labelled Assistant to the Director - President of mail sorting...it doesn't sound like that's what he used to be...and it's not like he's not involved completely these days.
It means Chris used to come into the office about twice a week. On Monday he would come in to do a write-up on a college prospect he saw on TV over the weekend, and on Friday he would come in to go through the Racing Forms for this week's action on the ponies.
Now he just comes in on Friday.
Mara saying he thinks they ruined Jones back in 2022 carries about little to no weight in who the starter is next season.
Stay with me here, you know what carries more weight in who starts next at QB next season? You ready for this one?
Whether we draft a QB and/or how Devito looks from now through next August and how well DJ is playing in September.
I know, radical.
Stay with me here, what if the two things above that I highlighted in bold are the exact same thing?
I know, radical.
2. Allow that GM to hire the head coach. (check)
3. Allow said GM to bring in talent beneath him from outside the organization. (check)
4. Be in front of the media less. (check) I'll add that Mara did not introduce Daboll to the media (Schoen did), in the past Mara always did this with head coaches.
The team is 4-8, so the default is to go back and bash Mara despite him doing what many people said he never would. "Well, Mara wanted to keep Judge." He didn't keep Judge. I'm not interested in speculating what could have happened. He did what we wanted.
Had we all decided that was our complete list of demands? I must have missed that.
Mara is the owner. He is free to do what he likes. I don't think anybody has said he has no right to voice his opinions publicly, or be involved in whatever decision he wants to be involved in.
Many here have criticized his public statements as being something they disagreed with, and something that may have held sway over the people he hired. That is not mutually exclusive of the four things you listed.
tl:dr - Mara is the owner of the team and free to determine his level of involvement or non-involvement. When he makes public statements about the team, fans are within their right to discuss the veracity of those statements and their potential impact on other events.
Once MetLife stadium was chanting "Daniel Jones" in the playoff clinching game against the Colts and then the playoff win, Jones was coming back. Not saying it's right, but after a decade of garbage it was a lock in Daboll's first year.
Once MetLife stadium was chanting "Daniel Jones" in the playoff clinching game against the Colts and then the playoff win, Jones was coming back. Not saying it's right, but after a decade of garbage it was a lock in Daboll's first year.
Well then he (and/or Schoen, and/or whomever) were fools to reverse themselves on what was initially a smart plan (Taylor as the cheap bridge to the next QB).
I agree with you that the fans influenced thinking. That tells you all you need to know about the quality of the football operation.
Do I think that happened? I would lean against it, but I am not convinced.
I'm ultimately pretty neutral on Mara. I think he's very loyal at QB, but I also think people go too far with the Mara talk too. He's what he is. He's been the owner for 2 Super Bowl titles and he's had a decade of mostly crap.
He's struggled in the post Eli Manning era including the back end of his career.
The turnaround will be dependent on Schoen/Daboll turning things around and managing any preferences the owner has on personnel.
You can include Jones, but I wouldn't include Barkley. Schoen has been firm on Barkley. Ultimately Barkley caved and reported to camp.
Do I think that happened? I would lean against it, but I am not convinced.
Okay but then that really goes against how Schoen handled himself with comments and negotiations with both players in the offseason, Barkley's comments to media, and the whole 5th year option passing but signing Jones anyway.
I simply think Schoen/Daboll made in error in judgment (and kind of a big one) in what they had with Jones and got a bit caught up in where they were with the roster after a strong Yr 1 on the job. That led to trying to play too much hardball with Saquon and wanting to contract up Jones so they could have some free agent cap room and keep the momentum going.
The prudent play was to 1) tag Jones and make him put up another good confidence-bearing season; 2) tell Saquon to find his best offer in free agency and then we'll match it; and 3) not get caught up in a playoff win when the difference between Dallas & Eagles and us was still significant as shown by those head-to-head games.
There is no mandate confusing the above.
The Branch Rickey axiom of "We suck with you, we can suck without you" was the only way to go here. That went out the window when:
- A fanbase starving for something good chose to cling to the Minnesota win and forget the poor second half of the season and the Philadelphia beatdown
- The front office misevaluated what happened last year and allowed themselves to get swept up in the fans' feelings
I really hope they make smart decisions this offseason, but history tells us we shouldn't expect it.
I think this is the big criticism of Schoen thus far. He misevaluated the market and didn't need to reveal his plans in the post season press conference.
But, last season was a problem. I mentioned it often. They were in a predicament making with Jones & Barkley being upcoming UFA's. I got a lot of "let it play out", well it played out.
Opening night against Dallas still would have been sold out. From the moment Andrew Thomas jumped on that first drive, this season has been a catastrophe WITH Jones and Barkley on the payroll.
The fans will go in whatever direction. They loved Jones, then he got hurt and they used that as an excuse to not have to rationalize his poor play anymore and move on. But if the Giants don't draft a QB those same fans will be right back to rationalizing Jones next summer.
The fans are clinging to myths about Jones's work ethic and Barkley's leadership because there's nothing else. But win three games in a row without them and they'll be forgotten.
Once MetLife stadium was chanting "Daniel Jones" in the playoff clinching game against the Colts and then the playoff win, Jones was coming back. Not saying it's right, but after a decade of garbage it was a lock in Daboll's first year.
I'm not sure I buy that with Schoen at the helm, but sentimentality has been a powerful force in decision making for a long time.
Schoen's correctly didn't exercise the 5th year option on Jones going into 2022. The gauntlet had been dropped for "Prove it", Phase 1.
The error was not transitioning to "Prove it", Phase 2. And that phase would have been concluding that 2022 was a good year for Jones. Nowhere near great. Nowhere near an MVP-type season. Because if 2022 was a great/great+ season for Jones, it would have made more sense to say it's a watershed, and a long-term deal was probably a wise bet.
Instead, Schoen should have said to Team Jones we like what we saw playing under Dabka. But we want to see you take it to the next level in 2023. So, we are going to apply the FT and use this off-season to bring more upgrades to the offense.
That was the smart play.
Alas, we have to deal in reality because the courage that you and I may have wanted Schoen to show was not available for a first time ever GM.
They weren't going to cut Jones, and Schoen wasn't going to apply the TT, so paying him $32M for one year was better than the current financial reward.
I do find it odd how most pro Jones articles in the media ALWAYS cite his 'work ethic' to prop him up. It tells me the reporters/beats don't have much to work with so thus the 'Well, he's a hard worker' card.
& for the record, I bet he is a hard worker. And a diligent & willing learner. He seems like a good dude. He's never been arrested. That's all great. There's just the small issue of winning big & him being an elite QB...that's where he fails.
The attachment to him is so bizarre.
No, it was within reason of tagging him if Schoen didn't like what he could reach for at QB in the last draft. A one year tag set nobody back in the NFL, unless you are a moron GM. Taylor has no consequence as he can't even stay on the field for more than 2 games in a row. He's not in the formula.
Not liking Jones is one thing. Being extreme on making a bad situation worse is another, and not fair for Daboll or Schoen.
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1. Hire a GM from outside the organization. (check)
2. Allow that GM to hire the head coach. (check)
3. Allow said GM to bring in talent beneath him from outside the organization. (check)
4. Be in front of the media less. (check) I'll add that Mara did not introduce Daboll to the media (Schoen did), in the past Mara always did this with head coaches.
The team is 4-8, so the default is to go back and bash Mara despite him doing what many people said he never would. "Well, Mara wanted to keep Judge." He didn't keep Judge. I'm not interested in speculating what could have happened. He did what we wanted.
He didn't keep his mouth shut on the quarterback on the eve of contract negotiations, and that contract is currently the biggest mistake looking over this year, 2024, and 2025.
No one knows for sure whose call the Jones contract was, but someone in the building was stupid enough to ok that decision. Ultimately it falls on the owner for either influencing the decision or hiring incompetent people.
It was the wrong decision, for this year. It s not over yet.
The reason the franchise tag was bad, was the $32 mill was etched in stone against the cap and there would have been almost no money left for any signings.
IIRC, they at $45-$47 mill in cap space. Jones eating $32 mill would have left $15 mill total, so in effect $10 mill for other signings. I know you would have let Barkley go, but they needed money for Okereke, Slayton, A'Shawn and Nacho and few other lower level deals. Plus they needed $5 to $8 mill for draft signees(more or less).
I agree with the first part for sure. Just not sure if a first time GM could have pulled that off, especially after the owner blamed himself for Jones's failures.
I disagree with the second part because the overrated "success" could have been mitigated by not concluding that it was worth 4yrs/$160M, $92M guaranteed.
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The 2023 QB franchise tag was $32.3M. Under no circumstances is it a good idea to pay Daniel Jones $32.3M. We already had Tyrod Taylor on the books for $5.5M.
The reason the franchise tag was bad, was the $32 mill was etched in stone against the cap and there would have been almost no money left for any signings.
IIRC, they at $45-$47 mill in cap space. Jones eating $32 mill would have left $15 mill total, so in effect $10 mill for other signings. I know you would have let Barkley go, but they needed money for Okereke, Slayton, A'Shawn and Nacho and few other lower level deals. Plus they needed $5 to $8 mill for draft signees(more or less).
I hear you, but I believe there were other ways to free up cash with some other bold/creative roster moves.
I don't know if you are following the Rams this year, but that team McVey and Snead have put together on a shoestring budget should be case study material for the Wharton Business School. Just take a look at that roster, who is starting, where they were drafted/obtained, and how much they are getting paid.
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The real courage would have been moving off Jones in Schoen's first offseason. Trade him for a conditional draft pick. Declining the option and starting Jones was risky because NYG would be stuck if there was success, and that's what happened.
I agree with the first part for sure. Just not sure if a first time GM could have pulled that off, especially after the owner blamed himself for Jones's failures.
I disagree with the second part because the overrated "success" could have been mitigated by not concluding that it was worth 4yrs/$160M, $92M guaranteed.
And this is why Schoen gets an error for his first major decision. We'll see how he responds in roughly 140 days.
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In comment 16314433 Go Terps said:
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The 2023 QB franchise tag was $32.3M. Under no circumstances is it a good idea to pay Daniel Jones $32.3M. We already had Tyrod Taylor on the books for $5.5M.
The reason the franchise tag was bad, was the $32 mill was etched in stone against the cap and there would have been almost no money left for any signings.
IIRC, they at $45-$47 mill in cap space. Jones eating $32 mill would have left $15 mill total, so in effect $10 mill for other signings. I know you would have let Barkley go, but they needed money for Okereke, Slayton, A'Shawn and Nacho and few other lower level deals. Plus they needed $5 to $8 mill for draft signees(more or less).
I hear you, but I believe there were other ways to free up cash with some other bold/creative roster moves.
I don't know if you are following the Rams this year, but that team McVey and Snead have put together on a shoestring budget should be case study material for the Wharton Business School. Just take a look at that roster, who is starting, where they were drafted/obtained, and how much they are getting paid.
You are correct on them putting together a respectable team. Shocked the hell out of me. I don't know who they released to get cap space. They had good bones in many places.
It is just one of the things the Giants have not done for over a decade. Of course, that staff in LA has been together for numerous years and the deadwood had been removed from the FO and staff.
No arguments from me. Green Bay and Houston, too.
Not liking Jones is one thing. Being extreme on making a bad situation worse is another, and not fair for Daboll or Schoen.
Taylor absolutely did have consequence. They paid him. They had history with him. And if there were concerns over Taylor's health and/or who they could draft, there were a number of QBs on Jones's level who were available:
Andy Dalton 2/10
Jarrett Stidham 2/10
Jacoby Brissett 1/8
Mike White 2/8
Marcus Mariota 1/5
Sam Darnold 1/4.5
Gardner Minshew 1/3.5
And that's just a few. Would you rather pay Minshew 1/3.5 or Jones 4/160?
The Jones contract is crazy.
I do find it odd how most pro Jones articles in the media ALWAYS cite his 'work ethic' to prop him up. It tells me the reporters/beats don't have much to work with so thus the 'Well, he's a hard worker' card.
& for the record, I bet he is a hard worker. And a diligent & willing learner. He seems like a good dude. He's never been arrested. That's all great. There's just the small issue of winning big & him being an elite QB...that's where he fails.
The attachment to him is so bizarre.
The attachment is all about emotional associations they make with him. He reminds them, and Mara, of something else, another player (Eli), an ideal son or son in law, an ideal of manhood, someone they want to be like, etc, you can fill in the blanks. And it makes them goofy.
It's certainly not about football, because almost everyone who follows the NFL and isn't a Giants fan, had the same assessment of Jones before the contract. Not worth the money. Mediocre player.
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In comment 16314314 Sean said:
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1. Hire a GM from outside the organization. (check)
2. Allow that GM to hire the head coach. (check)
3. Allow said GM to bring in talent beneath him from outside the organization. (check)
4. Be in front of the media less. (check) I'll add that Mara did not introduce Daboll to the media (Schoen did), in the past Mara always did this with head coaches.
The team is 4-8, so the default is to go back and bash Mara despite him doing what many people said he never would. "Well, Mara wanted to keep Judge." He didn't keep Judge. I'm not interested in speculating what could have happened. He did what we wanted.
He didn't keep his mouth shut on the quarterback on the eve of contract negotiations, and that contract is currently the biggest mistake looking over this year, 2024, and 2025.
No one knows for sure whose call the Jones contract was, but someone in the building was stupid enough to ok that decision. Ultimately it falls on the owner for either influencing the decision or hiring incompetent people.
It was the wrong decision, for this year. It s not over yet.
Seriously? JFC. What is it with people? It was the wrong decision, PERIOD. Daniel Jones is not a good NFL QB. Whose ever fault it was, it doesn’t matter. They made a critical mistake.
All of you Jones Pollyanna’s need to wake the up. The Giants are going NOWHERE with him as the franchise QB.
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No, it was within reason of tagging him if Schoen didn't like what he could reach for at QB in the last draft. A one year tag set nobody back in the NFL, unless you are a moron GM. Taylor has no consequence as he can't even stay on the field for more than 2 games in a row. He's not in the formula.
Not liking Jones is one thing. Being extreme on making a bad situation worse is another, and not fair for Daboll or Schoen.
Taylor absolutely did have consequence. They paid him. They had history with him. And if there were concerns over Taylor's health and/or who they could draft, there were a number of QBs on Jones's level who were available:
Andy Dalton 2/10
Jarrett Stidham 2/10
Jacoby Brissett 1/8
Mike White 2/8
Marcus Mariota 1/5
Sam Darnold 1/4.5
Gardner Minshew 1/3.5
And that's just a few. Would you rather pay Minshew 1/3.5 or Jones 4/160?
The Jones contract is crazy.
Do you realize how crazy you sound when you make those comparisons? Comparing Jason Stidham who has 133 career passing attempts to DJ and saying they are equal? Do you even think about what you post or just throw shit against a wall for the purpose of gaining reactions?
You could say the same thing for any player at any cost. If they paid Dane Belton $150M would we be saying "let's wait and see?" After all what if he turns into Ed Reed?
I just listed a bunch of QBs who are as good as Jones and are making, in some cases, 1/40th of his total contract. Are Jones's chances of justifying his contract any better than Jarrett Stidham justifying sometime paying him $160M?
You can't play players on the speculation that they'll become something they've never been.
Seriously? JFC. What is it with people? It was the wrong decision, PERIOD. Daniel Jones is not a good NFL QB. Whose ever fault it was, it doesn’t matter. They made a critical mistake.
All of you Jones Pollyanna’s need to wake the up. The Giants are going NOWHERE with him as the franchise QB.
You know the old saying in the NFL - you don't know what you have in a QB until the 6th year or later...
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It was the wrong decision, for this year. It s not over yet.
You could say the same thing for any player at any cost. If they paid Dane Belton $150M would we be saying "let's wait and see?" After all what if he turns into Ed Reed?
I just listed a bunch of QBs who are as good as Jones and are making, in some cases, 1/40th of his total contract. Are Jones's chances of justifying his contract any better than Jarrett Stidham justifying sometime paying him $160M?
You can't play players on the speculation that they'll become something they've never been.
*Can't pay players...
This is like Jonestown. It is a fucking cult. I have NEVER seen a Giant get this much leeway among a portion of the fanbase.
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In comment 16314441 ThomasG said:
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No, it was within reason of tagging him if Schoen didn't like what he could reach for at QB in the last draft. A one year tag set nobody back in the NFL, unless you are a moron GM. Taylor has no consequence as he can't even stay on the field for more than 2 games in a row. He's not in the formula.
Not liking Jones is one thing. Being extreme on making a bad situation worse is another, and not fair for Daboll or Schoen.
Taylor absolutely did have consequence. They paid him. They had history with him. And if there were concerns over Taylor's health and/or who they could draft, there were a number of QBs on Jones's level who were available:
Andy Dalton 2/10
Jarrett Stidham 2/10
Jacoby Brissett 1/8
Mike White 2/8
Marcus Mariota 1/5
Sam Darnold 1/4.5
Gardner Minshew 1/3.5
And that's just a few. Would you rather pay Minshew 1/3.5 or Jones 4/160?
The Jones contract is crazy.
Do you realize how crazy you sound when you make those comparisons? Comparing Jason Stidham who has 133 career passing attempts to DJ and saying they are equal? Do you even think about what you post or just throw shit against a wall for the purpose of gaining reactions?
It might be a true comparison. We'll see what Stidham does in the future. But Bortles, Trubisky, Osweiler are rock solid comps.
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No, it was within reason of tagging him if Schoen didn't like what he could reach for at QB in the last draft. A one year tag set nobody back in the NFL, unless you are a moron GM. Taylor has no consequence as he can't even stay on the field for more than 2 games in a row. He's not in the formula.
Not liking Jones is one thing. Being extreme on making a bad situation worse is another, and not fair for Daboll or Schoen.
Taylor absolutely did have consequence. They paid him. They had history with him. And if there were concerns over Taylor's health and/or who they could draft, there were a number of QBs on Jones's level who were available:
Andy Dalton 2/10
Jarrett Stidham 2/10
Jacoby Brissett 1/8
Mike White 2/8
Marcus Mariota 1/5
Sam Darnold 1/4.5
Gardner Minshew 1/3.5
And that's just a few. Would you rather pay Minshew 1/3.5 or Jones 4/160?
The Jones contract is crazy.
Taylor has no value. He has clearly shown he can't go more than about 50+ snaps in a row without getting hurt, and this has been over 2 years now.
Again, not liking Jones is fine. But either cutting him loose altogether (for an aggressive franchise) or tagging him (for a conservative franchise) both worked. Longer term contract stuff was a mistake but not because we had Taylor at the ready.
This is like Jonestown. It is a fucking cult. I have NEVER seen a Giant get this much leeway among a portion of the fanbase.
I'm starting to agree with this opinion. For some people, there is nothing that can happen for them to give up on Jones. When he's backing up somewhere after the Giants, these people will still say "oh, well Jones never really got a chance with a good O Line and good skill players." I'm not sure that there's anything that would change their minds.
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Going into Jones' sixth-SIXTH!!!-& people still are holding out hope based on a '22 season where he threw 15 TDs.
This is like Jonestown. It is a fucking cult. I have NEVER seen a Giant get this much leeway among a portion of the fanbase.
I'm starting to agree with this opinion. For some people, there is nothing that can happen for them to give up on Jones. When he's backing up somewhere after the Giants, these people will still say "oh, well Jones never really got a chance with a good O Line and good skill players." I'm not sure that there's anything that would change their minds.
Fwiw, I think the people who see a cult, belong to a cult themselves.
The rest of us that are ready to move on, just move on.
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In comment 16314442 joeinpa said:
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It was the wrong decision, for this year. It s not over yet.
You could say the same thing for any player at any cost. If they paid Dane Belton $150M would we be saying "let's wait and see?" After all what if he turns into Ed Reed?
I just listed a bunch of QBs who are as good as Jones and are making, in some cases, 1/40th of his total contract. Are Jones's chances of justifying his contract any better than Jarrett Stidham justifying sometime paying him $160M?
You can't play players on the speculation that they'll become something they've never been.
*Can't pay players...
All I m saying is there’s another year coming where he will be part of the roster. Right now the decision has backfired, but stranger things have happened
I m in the camp his performance last season warranted a contract, Schoen agreed. It hasn’t worked out for many reasons, not all Daniel’s fault.
We ll see what happens going forward.
Even if the Giants draft a quarterback, I think they should, there s chance he would sit behind Jones for a season.
This is like Jonestown. It is a fucking cult. I have NEVER seen a Giant get this much leeway among a portion of the fanbase.
It s football for crying out loud, you sure you want to compare it to Jonestown.
2. Any attempts by the team or fans to pretend Mara doesn't have personnel influence reeks of insecurity. You don't litter your family in personnel to be "hands off." You attempt to cover this up because the real issue is the quality of that influence. And the more you have to own having influence the last 10 years the more you have to own just how bad you've been. A lot of fans do this because to face it is to face just how fucked we are tied to this small, small, garbage can kicking man.
3. GTFO with John-boy distancing himself and blaming JS for Jones contract. You are going to say we did everything to screw this kid up? Blame the other players on your team? Declare the guy the starter when your new coach and GM start after he's been horrible and then pretend like you aren't involved in him getting GROSSLY overpaid. You are being intellectually dishonest or willfully ignorant to not see that connection.
4. You Pollyanna's probably think you are harmless but the only thing we know about our thin-skinned born on third base loser of an owner is that if he can get away with giving away a medium Pepsi that is what he will do. All he wants is to say whatever he wants to say even if it hurts his negotiating leverage and strut around like he "cares" when he actually doesn't. Because that would involve an admission that he is the problem. He should be getting slammed for his behavior around Jones and the contract right now. But his BS works on many of you, so much so that some of you won't even admit how bad Jones is. Or debating Mara's involvement. These are the wrong things to debate and as long as you keep giving this man any cover he will take it.
5. John Mara responds to 1 thing. Barbarians at the gate, the kind that buy less of his stuff and write angry letters and put the blame on him where it deserves to be.
6. Things like our Head Coach and D Coordinator bickering is a sign of poor leadership at the top. Good leaders don't stand for that kind of shit, only losers.
7. Saying he is the owner and we can't change it is dumb victim shit. We all know we can't fire him, talk about a strawman. We can and should make the clownshow uncomfortable, unless you enjoy this. Some of you do, or at least tolerate it. WAKE UP.
2. Any attempts by the team or fans to pretend Mara doesn't have personnel influence reeks of insecurity. You don't litter your family in personnel to be "hands off." You attempt to cover this up because the real issue is the quality of that influence. And the more you have to own having influence the last 10 years the more you have to own just how bad you've been. A lot of fans do this because to face it is to face just how fucked we are tied to this small, small, garbage can kicking man.
3. GTFO with John-boy distancing himself and blaming JS for Jones contract. You are going to say we did everything to screw this kid up? Blame the other players on your team? Declare the guy the starter when your new coach and GM start after he's been horrible and then pretend like you aren't involved in him getting GROSSLY overpaid. You are being intellectually dishonest or willfully ignorant to not see that connection.
4. You Pollyanna's probably think you are harmless but the only thing we know about our thin-skinned born on third base loser of an owner is that if he can get away with giving away a medium Pepsi that is what he will do. All he wants is to say whatever he wants to say even if it hurts his negotiating leverage and strut around like he "cares" when he actually doesn't. Because that would involve an admission that he is the problem. He should be getting slammed for his behavior around Jones and the contract right now. But his BS works on many of you, so much so that some of you won't even admit how bad Jones is. Or debating Mara's involvement. These are the wrong things to debate and as long as you keep giving this man any cover he will take it.
5. John Mara responds to 1 thing. Barbarians at the gate, the kind that buy less of his stuff and write angry letters and put the blame on him where it deserves to be.
6. Things like our Head Coach and D Coordinator bickering is a sign of poor leadership at the top. Good leaders don't stand for that kind of shit, only losers.
7. Saying he is the owner and we can't change it is dumb victim shit. We all know we can't fire him, talk about a strawman. We can and should make the clownshow uncomfortable, unless you enjoy this. Some of you do, or at least tolerate it. WAKE UP.
Here, here.
Mara is destroying my interest in the team. He thinks he's doing the right thing by being loyal, as though that's the *right* way to run a football team. It's hilarious. He's getting lapped by Eagles management. The Big Blue loyalty schtick is a crock of shit. I want to root for a team that knows how to win and will behave ruthlessly in that pursuit. I don't want to root for John Mara's family heirloom and watch his backwards approach to take a decade to find out when players aren't good enough.
He was born a prince, never accomplished anything meaningful on his own, and behaves like he has some eternal legacy to protect, but the truth is he's mucking it all up
It's been a trainwreck for the past decade. But this sport is filled with like 6 teams max who can win a Super Bowl every year. And ultimately, it comes down to having a QB.
I think a big issue is too many fans gravitate towards ground and pound football. Win games 13-10 and just have a game manager at QB. That's not how the league works anymore.
Is Belichick a moron now or does he just have shitty QB play? Blame Mara for not figuring out the QB position, but when posters go too far the other way I'm going to defend him.
It's been a trainwreck for the past decade. But this sport is filled with like 6 teams max who can win a Super Bowl every year. And ultimately, it comes down to having a QB.
I think a big issue is too many fans gravitate towards ground and pound football. Win games 13-10 and just have a game manager at QB. That's not how the league works anymore.
Is Belichick a moron now or does he just have shitty QB play? Blame Mara for not figuring out the QB position, but when posters go too far the other way I'm going to defend him.
Sean - fair enough, he won two Lombardis. I love that. But he had strong support in doing so, and they got very lucky with a unicorn QB in Eli Manning, who looked average a lot of the time, but had uncanny traits that led him to two great Super Bowl runs. Eli Mannings don't grow on trees, and you certainly aren't going to find the next one by looking for a *physical* clone.
Mara got spoiled by Eli, and I believe, he came to believe that the Eli recipe is repeatable - it can be the Big Blue template for championships. It is not. And I don't think he understands why Eli was able to do what he did. It wasn't because Eli was a tall, aww shucks, golly gee kind of polite guy to interview. And we see by his public comments and suggestions that he STILL thinks Jones is a possible franchise QB for this team. He still believes in the *Giants Way* to win a championship with Daniel Jones in the Eli role. This unmasks him as a putz who doesn't have the analytical capacity to understand what NFL teams need to do in 2023. He doesn't even know what questions to ask? He is lost. And on this trajectory, the only way we will sniff another championship in my lifetime, is luck. Because Mara leads this team with two fatal flaws - IGNORANCE and HUBRIS.
Some of you need to lay off the sauce or perhaps crack.
No he isn't a gigantic idiot who immediately screws up a business the second he takes over, few people are actually that bad.
He's just a regular never accomplished anything spoiled rich kid that can't tell the difference between his own accomplishment's and his daddy's. Or luck and skill. And if you can't even identify what works and what doesn't and even worse assume any failures are bad luck and successes are deserved and will keep coming (Hello last year!)
You fail at your first and most important job as a leader understanding your strengths and weaknesses and being more of an asset than a liability around those understandings.
The 7 things I said about are hard truths, accept them or don't at our own peril.
Some of you need to lay off the sauce or perhaps crack.
Yeah I hear you, you and some other here score big in the idiocy department. Maybe you should talk less and learn to think better.
Just for "cackles" what of my 7 points were wrong? Be specific.
It's been a trainwreck for the past decade. But this sport is filled with like 6 teams max who can win a Super Bowl every year. And ultimately, it comes down to having a QB.
I think a big issue is too many fans gravitate towards ground and pound football. Win games 13-10 and just have a game manager at QB. That's not how the league works anymore.
Is Belichick a moron now or does he just have shitty QB play? Blame Mara for not figuring out the QB position, but when posters go too far the other way I'm going to defend him.
That is one of the features of the internet. Destroy people using the keyboard without the fear of consequences.
I agree. The biggest problem is the handling of QB. And I think it's due to how Eli's career played out here.
Mara got a big pay off with being patient with Coughlin and Manning and he's used that as a guide with Jones imo.
He plays favorites, and is more patient with his people. He is also incredibly disloyal to Giants members who are not part of his circle.
2. Any attempts by the team or fans to pretend Mara doesn't have personnel influence reeks of insecurity. You don't litter your family in personnel to be "hands off." You attempt to cover this up because the real issue is the quality of that influence. And the more you have to own having influence the last 10 years the more you have to own just how bad you've been. A lot of fans do this because to face it is to face just how fucked we are tied to this small, small, garbage can kicking man.
3. GTFO with John-boy distancing himself and blaming JS for Jones contract. You are going to say we did everything to screw this kid up? Blame the other players on your team? Declare the guy the starter when your new coach and GM start after he's been horrible and then pretend like you aren't involved in him getting GROSSLY overpaid. You are being intellectually dishonest or willfully ignorant to not see that connection.
4. You Pollyanna's probably think you are harmless but the only thing we know about our thin-skinned born on third base loser of an owner is that if he can get away with giving away a medium Pepsi that is what he will do. All he wants is to say whatever he wants to say even if it hurts his negotiating leverage and strut around like he "cares" when he actually doesn't. Because that would involve an admission that he is the problem. He should be getting slammed for his behavior around Jones and the contract right now. But his BS works on many of you, so much so that some of you won't even admit how bad Jones is. Or debating Mara's involvement. These are the wrong things to debate and as long as you keep giving this man any cover he will take it.
5. John Mara responds to 1 thing. Barbarians at the gate, the kind that buy less of his stuff and write angry letters and put the blame on him where it deserves to be.
6. Things like our Head Coach and D Coordinator bickering is a sign of poor leadership at the top. Good leaders don't stand for that kind of shit, only losers.
7. Saying he is the owner and we can't change it is dumb victim shit. We all know we can't fire him, talk about a strawman. We can and should make the clownshow uncomfortable, unless you enjoy this. Some of you do, or at least tolerate it. WAKE UP.
Your premise that fans can make Mara change seems to ignore something. John Mara wants to win, he s made bad decisions, don’t see how fan Barbarism is going to help him make better decisions. It might bring about change, McAdoo, Shumur, Judge, Daboll……..How s that working out so far.
Bickering among coaches sign of poor leadership?.. How d that Parcells Belichick thing work out.
Some of your conclusions are not consistent with what I have observed spending a life time around athletes. It s an emotional activity, things happen, and you move on.
I think Mara (like most people) might have a tendency to hear the opinions he agrees with as the loudest voice even if they're not. And that's without even pausing to consider whether "loudest" equals "most" anymore.
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I've got an issue when people call Mara a loser, prince or someone born on third base. He's got two Lombardi trophies in the case while HE was owner. It's bullshit to just dismiss that.
It's been a trainwreck for the past decade. But this sport is filled with like 6 teams max who can win a Super Bowl every year. And ultimately, it comes down to having a QB.
I think a big issue is too many fans gravitate towards ground and pound football. Win games 13-10 and just have a game manager at QB. That's not how the league works anymore.
Is Belichick a moron now or does he just have shitty QB play? Blame Mara for not figuring out the QB position, but when posters go too far the other way I'm going to defend him.
That is one of the features of the internet. Destroy people using the keyboard without the fear of consequences.
One of the other features is the presence of people willing to white knight for those who won the genetic lottery and have never known anything but power and influence.
What I do have a problem with is fans blasting GMs and coaches and the FO firing Giants decision makers for essentially carrying out what might be ownerships wishes. I've also got a problem with fans laying this all at the feet of past/current GMs and coaches when they are not the entire problem.
If things are going to change, Mara and his potential mouthpieces need to take a break or remove themselves entirely from the football operations side of things.
They are the only remaining constants in this seemingly endless cycle of underperformance.
I'm just callin it like I see it.
It is absolutely Mara's job to run his business in a manner which takes good advantage of managing the fan base. This does NOT mean he lets the fans run the team. Merely that he needs to consider overall fan base management.
In this mode, re signing Jones made sense. Even if they didn't think he was the answer, he was supposed to be good enough enable a middle of the road team. A second straight season of being relevant would have us all singing a different tune. The worst of both worlds happened: Jones didn't step up to the plate, AND we returned to being laughing stock. In hind sight, not bringing back Jones and accepting a shitty year would be best for the long term health of the business, but the goal was to have a second OK year, which fans would be giddy over after so many years of shit. Once the Giants are marginally competitive, and the fan base won't be happy with mediocrity (and let's face it, most of us were thrilled with last year's mediocrity), they can look to replace Jones. Options for replacing Jones last year were slim.
You are correct it doesnt guarantee success or that you are good at your job..
But you have to at least put in the work...
When you have the power of your family name behind you, doors open for you without having to necessarily earn anything.
Let's take Tim McDonnell, for example. Wellington's grandson, his first job upon graduating from college was at Notre Dame, where he was hired by Charlie Weis. Weis, as I'm sure you recall, was an assistant coach for the Giants from 1990-1992. Gee, wonder how he got that job. He remained at Notre Dame until 2013, when he was hired by ... the Giants!
Quite a resume.
It's fine that Mara has influence, they won Super Bowls with that family having influence. What's not fine is Mara's reluctance to admit mistakes and double down on losing strategies. It also seems that he's somewhat reluctant to adapt to the modern NFL in both field play and contracts.
I would be pleasantly surprised if that family admitted the Jones mistake and moved on. I would be pleasantly surprised if Barkley wasn't signed to a significant second contract. My guess is unless Arch is staring them in the face in two years and Barkley is relatively healthy, both are playing significant roles for the Giants three years from now.
Running the business end of a football team is something the Mara family has done for a long time and is good at. Wellington's father taught him, and he taught John. All three have a substantial legacy when it comes to the business of the league and the growth of the sport.
What the Mara family has never been, are football experts. Wellington grew up watching the game and being around the team, but hsi drafting and roster management were almost exclusively awful until George Young came along. The team needed a football guy, not a guy who was always around football.
Mara should be smart enough to realize his expertise lies in the running of the league and team, not so much in the on-field product. Those decisions need to be made by football guys hired to make those decisions, free of influence from someone who sees the game and team like a fan.
Running the business end of a football team is something the Mara family has done for a long time and is good at. Wellington's father taught him, and he taught John. All three have a substantial legacy when it comes to the business of the league and the growth of the sport.
What the Mara family has never been, are football experts. Wellington grew up watching the game and being around the team, but hsi drafting and roster management were almost exclusively awful until George Young came along. The team needed a football guy, not a guy who was always around football.
Mara should be smart enough to realize his expertise lies in the running of the league and team, not so much in the on-field product. Those decisions need to be made by football guys hired to make those decisions, free of influence from someone who sees the game and team like a fan.
And the issue is we never know who's making the decisions then. There are Mara's on the football side. What seems to happen though is the bad decisions end up falling on ownership where the good decisions fall to the GM (Schoen).
The Leonard Williams trade is an example. Would every owner sign off on eating the cost and essentially buying a 2nd round pick? I doubt it.
So, there is always this cloud of doubt over who handles the larger issues. Utilmately, it is on Schoen to manage it.
If nothing comes from this current regime, it would have to be time to just give someone like Harbaugh the keys to run the entire franchise. Or like what Denver has done with Sean Payton. I like Schoen & Daboll, but they have no track record of success.
Are we believing that with one of the biggest decisions that the franchise had to make with Jones that he was sitting out for that decision?
I diverge on the Jones situation. While I'm sure Mara was/is ecstatic that Jones had a good enough year in 2022 to get rewarded so handsomely, the decision to decline the 5th year option points to Schoen owning the Jones decisions.
Because that decision came on the heels of the infamous quote from Mara during the press conference introducing Schoen.: "We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up."
Despite being within five feet away when Mara said that, Schoen still declined the 5th year option two and a half months later. How can anyone think Mara was behind that?
There is no one on this board who has spent as much time as me crushing Mara before Schoen arrived. Nobody. So, I can't be mistaken as some Mara apologist.
People need to wake up a little bit and get the spotlight more on Schoen. He's possibly a bigger problem than many think...
Thanks Jon, I'd actually appreciate it if you shot me an email.
markrodgers1981@gmail.com
I'd say those are more of the wrong questions.
1) Mara has had horrible results and rarely if ever takes any responsibility for bad things occurring and frequently assigns it to people below him. Sometimes selectively and clearly to his favorites. This is horrible leadership and rarely gets good results in any industry.
2) Mara says overly sentimental things too often in public and the team displays sentimental behavior which as the league evolves seems to hurt them more and more.
3) For over a decade the team Mara has lead has been one of the worst if not the worst in the NFL overall.
Even if you reject 1 and 2 which you shouldn't, 3 is the trump card and the only important question. Why should it really matter exactly HOW bad each of these GMs are if they perform poorly under the same leadership team?
How many poor choices by the GM was enforced by Mara? How often are these occurrences?
I think it is important to know who is responsible for the successes and the failures of the team. I can say Mara is not involved and is not responsible but I don't know that any more than you know that is Mara is responsible for.
I think assigning blame when we don't know who is to blame leads to faulty analysis.
If Mara is the driving force behind the many mistake that has set this team back while not being responsible for any of the good then that is obviously a very bad situation.
If Mara is not the driving force behind these mistakes then we have mistakes that were poor choices by GM's and Coaches. Of course a mixture is possible as well.
Would you say that you are assigning blame to Mara for the many mistakes that have lead to the current state of the franchise?
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And that's okay to an extent. How many owners in any business are completely hands off? If you believe Schoen had full autonomy in the Jones decision, I am not sure what to tell you. If you believe the hiring of DG wasn't in part at least influenced by his belief that Manning had years left (a view that aligned very clearly with Mara), I don't know what to tell you.
I diverge on the Jones situation. While I'm sure Mara was/is ecstatic that Jones had a good enough year in 2022 to get rewarded so handsomely, the decision to decline the 5th year option points to Schoen owning the Jones decisions.
Because that decision came on the heels of the infamous quote from Mara during the press conference introducing Schoen.: "We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up."
Despite being within five feet away when Mara said that, Schoen still declined the 5th year option two and a half months later. How can anyone think Mara was behind that?
There is no one on this board who has spent as much time as me crushing Mara before Schoen arrived. Nobody. So, I can't be mistaken as some Mara apologist.
People need to wake up a little bit and get the spotlight more on Schoen. He's possibly a bigger problem than many think...
I mostly agree but I can't get too worked up over this with Schoen because there's an occam's razor element to this:
-Schoen/Daboll have a surprisingly successful first season in which Jones plays like a top 15 QB. THey are out of the running for Stroud/Young and FA QBs Carr and Geno don't represent clear upgrades based on Jones 2022 performance.
-They commit to Jones on a deal with a modest out after the 2024 season. They overpaid, they are probably aware that they overpaid, but - and this is the only part where Mara's influence and traditional Giants naivete comes in - a few extra million to make all parties involved satisfied isn't the worst thing in the world in their minds.
-They look to build on Jones' 2022 success. They probably convince themselves: We made a guy with good physical tools into a top 15 QB, who's to say we can't raise his ceiling?
-Unfortunately, they get way too cute in building and coaching the OL, and on top of that, Jones looks completely out to lunch in the opening four games.
I think the last part is key; we've seen it leaked that the many people in the building were mystified by Jones' performance. I think they just didn't expect the regression. You could argue that they should've been aware that Jones was a bottom third QB by every metric before 2022, but I would be willing to bet they thought "good lord, Garrett/Judge sucked and WE can clearly mold Jones into a great player"
So it wasn't ideal decision making, and likely involved some hubris, but I get it to some extent. I only hope Schoen now realizes that 2022 was likely an exception for Jones and not a path forward.
To that point, even when a team has a qb with exciting potential, the team still does not have a qb until they secure themselves among the best. A team putting all of its eggs in one basket when it comes to quarterback are certainly vulnerable to spending too much time with a quarterback that may not reach their expectations. However, I don't think it is necessarily easy to have multiple qbs on the roster that the team believes can be the guy without adding too much pressure. It can be a finicky situation.
Taking out the human element of players (obviously you can't), having multiple players at quarterback with big potential would be ideal.
Change great to 'acceptable', and I'm with you. there's a big middle ground between the two extremes.
The whole team entered the season with a serious regression that almost no one expected. Jones was a big part of the equation, but he isn't the sole part.
Taking out the human element of players (obviously you can't), having multiple players at quarterback with big potential would be ideal.
I think the "franchise QB" concept is less about the QBs and more about branding and selling jerseys.
I think management of the QB position is perhaps the biggest inefficiency in how the league is run. Too many big contracts, not enough focus on creating depth and competition.
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Taking out the human element of players (obviously you can't), having multiple players at quarterback with big potential would be ideal.
I think the "franchise QB" concept is less about the QBs and more about branding and selling jerseys.
I think management of the QB position is perhaps the biggest inefficiency in how the league is run. Too many big contracts, not enough focus on creating depth and competition.
I can see that. The NFL has treated the qb situation very delicately as long as I have been watching. Teams try to avoid, maybe too much upsetting the starting quarterback by drafting a qb high and announcing that 'he is our guy' which limits what kind of talent you bring in behind him. Having multiple quarterbacks on the roster that you believe in seems to give a team a better chance at finding their guy.
One of the big divides about Jones on BBI was the surrounding roster. There were a lot of posters (me included) that felt early on the roster was making it difficult to evaluate the qb. What if you have a guy behind Jones at the time that the team also believed in that could be inserted to compare the differences. But, again the human element can be tricky when letting multiple quarterbacks play.
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And that's okay to an extent. How many owners in any business are completely hands off? If you believe Schoen had full autonomy in the Jones decision, I am not sure what to tell you. If you believe the hiring of DG wasn't in part at least influenced by his belief that Manning had years left (a view that aligned very clearly with Mara), I don't know what to tell you.
I diverge on the Jones situation. While I'm sure Mara was/is ecstatic that Jones had a good enough year in 2022 to get rewarded so handsomely, the decision to decline the 5th year option points to Schoen owning the Jones decisions.
Because that decision came on the heels of the infamous quote from Mara during the press conference introducing Schoen.: "We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up."
Despite being within five feet away when Mara said that, Schoen still declined the 5th year option two and a half months later. How can anyone think Mara was behind that?
There is no one on this board who has spent as much time as me crushing Mara before Schoen arrived. Nobody. So, I can't be mistaken as some Mara apologist.
People need to wake up a little bit and get the spotlight more on Schoen. He's possibly a bigger problem than many think...
I believe you have this correct BW. Yes, Mara is a meddling owner, but he will do so in a passive aggressive manner so as to preserve the plausible deniability that he is a meddling owner, as others have pointed out on this thread. So being a GM of this franchise requires the fortitude to make tough decisions that the owner may not agree with. "Saving Mara from himself" therefore being perhaps the most important criterion of the Giants GM job, as George Young proved with Wellington forty years ago.
In the case of DJ and SB, there was only one course of action that made any sense given Mara's clear impulse and expectation to invest in them, and it was self-evident at the time. Apply the franchise tag to DJ and give Barkley a take it or leave it "Jonathan Taylor type contract" that simply guaranteed the dollars of a second franchise tag. Yes, both are gross overpayments to these two players as Terps points out. But given the playoff win and the pure politics of the situation, Schoen needed to be perceived as trying to retain both them. But he needed to do so in a sensible manner only.
Instead, he allowed his analytical expertise on positional value cloud his judgment. Instead of using the carrot for the quarterback position and the stick for the running back position, he completely missed the self-evident point that in this particular case, his quarterback is a middling talent but his running back is an elite talent, arguably a top three player at the position in the league. So the franchise tag stick needed to be applied to DJ and the multi-year guarantee carrot should have been offered to Barkley. Instead he made the worst possible decision possible. He gave DJ the most overvalued contract perhaps in major sports history, and stabbed Barkley in the back by pinching pennies to make a point on positional value.
So no matter how strong the desire is to blame Mara, and I do agree with the OP's premise that Mara has a strong desire to influence and impact personnel matters, much like any other NFL owner (see David Tepper), the fault in making these choices belongs completely with Schoen. Schoen needed to be George Young last year and stand up to Mara's well intended but misguided predilections on personnel.
Can Schoen rebound? Let's hope so. And hope that he has learned an invaluable lesson, albeit the hard way, and pivots immediately to running this team focused on winning championships, rather than useless sentimentality.
We all want Schoen to be the savior just like we hoped Judge was. The fact is, the first major decision Schoen made has been proven extremely costly and will have a financial impact through 2025 at minimum.
Schoen gave Jones the contract he got. If he didn't really want to (which I don't believe) that is even worse than it being a bad decision. That means it was a bad process that will likely repeat itself.
Schoen signed Jones, not John Mara.
Even if the Giants hit on a rookie QB in this draft, the benefit of that will have been mitigated by Jones's drag on the team cap. It is far worse to pay the wrong QB than it is to draft the wrong QB. Of course, the Giants did both.
If Schoen's evaluation was Jones was a $100M QB, worth the money, and the future if the team, then I think he should be fired. Then he knows less about evaluating QBs than I do.
If Schoen's evaluation was Jones was a $100M QB, worth the money, and the future if the team, then I think he should be fired. Then he knows less about evaluating QBs than I do.
If Schoen gave Jones a $100M to appease the owner while giving himself 2 years to pivot away from Jones, then he is an idiot. He may not have two years left to correct that error.
I believe you have this correct BW. Yes, Mara is a meddling owner, but he will do so in a passive aggressive manner so as to preserve the plausible deniability that he is a meddling owner, as others have pointed out on this thread. So being a GM of this franchise requires the fortitude to make tough decisions that the owner may not agree with. "Saving Mara from himself" therefore being perhaps the most important criterion of the Giants GM job, as George Young proved with Wellington forty years ago.
In the case of DJ and SB, there was only one course of action that made any sense given Mara's clear impulse and expectation to invest in them, and it was self-evident at the time. Apply the franchise tag to DJ and give Barkley a take it or leave it "Jonathan Taylor type contract" that simply guaranteed the dollars of a second franchise tag. Yes, both are gross overpayments to these two players as Terps points out. But given the playoff win and the pure politics of the situation, Schoen needed to be perceived as trying to retain both them. But he needed to do so in a sensible manner only.
Instead, he allowed his analytical expertise on positional value cloud his judgment. Instead of using the carrot for the quarterback position and the stick for the running back position, he completely missed the self-evident point that in this particular case, his quarterback is a middling talent but his running back is an elite talent, arguably a top three player at the position in the league. So the franchise tag stick needed to be applied to DJ and the multi-year guarantee carrot should have been offered to Barkley. Instead he made the worst possible decision possible. He gave DJ the most overvalued contract perhaps in major sports history, and stabbed Barkley in the back by pinching pennies to make a point on positional value.
So no matter how strong the desire is to blame Mara, and I do agree with the OP's premise that Mara has a strong desire to influence and impact personnel matters, much like any other NFL owner (see David Tepper), the fault in making these choices belongs completely with Schoen. Schoen needed to be George Young last year and stand up to Mara's well intended but misguided predilections on personnel.
Can Schoen rebound? Let's hope so. And hope that he has learned an invaluable lesson, albeit the hard way, and pivots immediately to running this team focused on winning championships, rather than useless sentimentality.
This is a good post The Mike.
Other than the part of Barkley currently being an elite talent, I think you have the right sentiments here.
Then the market could have decided their value.
In both cases the Giants would have been better off.
And unlike the franchise tag, if they chose to resign Jones it would not have been an unworkable cap hit
I'm a believer in drafting QBs at some point every year, but controlling for the likelihood the Giants don't feel the same way it probably doesn't make sense for them to even draft a QB at all. They're financially committed to Jones. In their construct what makes sense is to bring in a vet or give Taylor a new contract to be the placeholder until Jones is ready.
If I'm Schoen and I'm doing things the Giants way, the next time to really look at drafting a "franchise QB" is the 2025 or 2026 draft. That doesn't rule out the possibility of taking a developmental QB on day 3 of the 2024 draft.
I'd like to emphasize that this is not what I would do.
If Schoen's evaluation was Jones was a $100M QB, worth the money, and the future if the team, then I think he should be fired. Then he knows less about evaluating QBs than I do.
This was an odd way to put that but I get what you're saying.
The Schoen evaluation of Jones is disturbing, and even moreso not having the prudent judgment to avail himself to the franchise tag based on the situation.
All Schoen did was make his job that much harder as a young GM trying to turn around a bad team. Drafting the right guy at QB in April will go a long way in doing that though. And will increase my confidence that he is the right guy for this job.
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gave in and gave Jones a $100M to appease the owner while giving himself 2 years to pivot away from Jones, I can give him a pass.
If Schoen's evaluation was Jones was a $100M QB, worth the money, and the future if the team, then I think he should be fired. Then he knows less about evaluating QBs than I do.
This was an odd way to put that but I get what you're saying.
The Schoen evaluation of Jones is disturbing, and even moreso not having the prudent judgment to avail himself to the franchise tag based on the situation.
All Schoen did was make his job that much harder as a young GM trying to turn around a bad team. Drafting the right guy at QB in April will go a long way in doing that though. And will increase my confidence that he is the right guy for this job.
He fired one of the few arrows in his quiver when he signed Jones. It was a waste. He should have known it would be a waste. And now he only has a few big shots remaining. Let's hope he uses them wisely
Jayden Daniels will flip the perception of the team among fans and the national media. He would provide hope which is a big thing in professional sports.
The fanbase won't be okay with a status quo QB room unless DeVito went on some ridiculous tear to end the season.
Jayden Daniels will flip the perception of the team among fans and the national media. He would provide hope which is a big thing in professional sports.
The fanbase won't be okay with a status quo QB room unless DeVito went on some ridiculous tear to end the season.
I don't know that the general fanbase shares that perception about the QB room, or about Jones. I hope they do, but my suspicion is that if they don't draft a guy in round 1 or 2 we'll be hearing about Jones in a positive light before too long.
There's an overarching lesson here that we need to remember if they smarten up and move on from Jones: don't get too attached to the next QB. Shorten the leash, lose the blue glasses, and skew early on admitting we may have missed. This Jones situation is a fucking death trap that we must never repeat.
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If he doesn't, he'll be fired. It's that simple. That is the way out but as Terps said, Jones is still costly.
I'm a believer in drafting QBs at some point every year, but controlling for the likelihood the Giants don't feel the same way it probably doesn't make sense for them to even draft a QB at all. They're financially committed to Jones. In their construct what makes sense is to bring in a vet or give Taylor a new contract to be the placeholder until Jones is ready.
If I'm Schoen and I'm doing things the Giants way, the next time to really look at drafting a "franchise QB" is the 2025 or 2026 draft. That doesn't rule out the possibility of taking a developmental QB on day 3 of the 2024 draft.
I'd like to emphasize that this is not what I would do.
And you are right about the approach to quarterback. And have been for years.
Schoen has to identify the best possible successor in this upcoming draft and get him. If he doesn't and just rolls it back with DJ for a sixth year, which is beyond impossible to comprehend at the point, then it proves Schoen is nothing more than another "Gettleman-Like" lackey and not capable of doing the job necessary to turning this thing around. More than anything else, the locker room knows this and will be lost completely before the 2024 season even begins.
At which point the fate of Schoen and Daboll will be sealed and both will be gone before the sun rises on 2025...
None of the expensive contracts to the lower tier QB's have worked (Jones, Carr, Garoppolo).
I actually think what the Packers did with Love was smart. Sign him cheap and avoid the NYG/Jones situation. They have him at a cheap deal for a few years and it looks like he can be serviceable.
None of the expensive contracts to the lower tier QB's have worked (Jones, Carr, Garoppolo).
I actually think what the Packers did with Love was smart. Sign him cheap and avoid the NYG/Jones situation. They have him at a cheap deal for a few years and it looks like he can be serviceable.
I agree the elite guys will continue to get paid. The question is on the definition of elite. There are 18 QBs with an AAV over $20M this year. There's no way there should be that many.
But that is not market economics, Or at least it is a lazy take with a market economics tag slapped on.
In true market economics a QB should be paid by how likely they are to get you to Super Bowls, and by their place in line on a QB list, which fluctuates wildly year to year when you go below the top-8 anyway.
And by that measure Mahomes and Burrow caliber QBs get big dollars, and QBs in Jones' range don't get 85% of Mahomnes, they get 10 to 20% of Mahomes.
It is a binary. Are you likely to get us to a Super Bowl? If yes - huge contract. Are you a starting QB who is unlikely to get us to a Super Bowl? If yes - 10%/20% of top contracts as a ceiling.
But of course the Giants seem incapable of such analysis, and we have to do the dumb thing and pay the 15th best QB on a scale with Mahomes and Burrow.
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And that's okay to an extent. How many owners in any business are completely hands off? If you believe Schoen had full autonomy in the Jones decision, I am not sure what to tell you. If you believe the hiring of DG wasn't in part at least influenced by his belief that Manning had years left (a view that aligned very clearly with Mara), I don't know what to tell you.
I diverge on the Jones situation. While I'm sure Mara was/is ecstatic that Jones had a good enough year in 2022 to get rewarded so handsomely, the decision to decline the 5th year option points to Schoen owning the Jones decisions.
Because that decision came on the heels of the infamous quote from Mara during the press conference introducing Schoen.: "We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up."
Despite being within five feet away when Mara said that, Schoen still declined the 5th year option two and a half months later. How can anyone think Mara was behind that?
There is no one on this board who has spent as much time as me crushing Mara before Schoen arrived. Nobody. So, I can't be mistaken as some Mara apologist.
People need to wake up a little bit and get the spotlight more on Schoen. He's possibly a bigger problem than many think...
What I do not want to do is blow it all up again. TC learned things late in his career, maybe Daboll can figure it out sooner. I think Schoen is the right guy, time will surely tell.
Constant turnover of management is an obstacle to success that is nearly insurmountable unless you can lure the very best. I don't see the best wanting to be here. Why would you come?
We all want Schoen to be the savior just like we hoped Judge was. The fact is, the first major decision Schoen made has been proven extremely costly and will have a financial impact through 2025 at minimum.
Part of the problem is that the Giants collectively painted themselves into a corner by making it obvious what they wanted to do. Mara made no secret of the organization's desire to keep Jones and Barkley, which essentially telegraphed to Jones's agent that they needed to sign him to a contract in order to franchise Barkley. That put a hard deadline on signing Jones, and predictably he was signed mere hours before the Franchise Tag deadline.
None of this is to fully excuse Schoen, but to put a deadline on yourself in that negotiation is to give the upper hand to the other side. Kudos to Jones's agent for using that to his advantage and getting a deal he never would have gotten elsewhere.
Some of the better and perfectly qualified GMs have paid QBs and lived to regret it. That doesn't mean it was a comical or ridiculously bad decision to pay the guy. Hindsight is 20-20. It's not an indictment on Schoen as much as it was just a bad year from Jones and Daboll and probably some bad luck, which I know some of you refuse to believe in, but it's there for all the world to see year in year out. The team collapsed. They liked Jones. They paid Jones. Jones sucked early and then got hurt, thus wiping out any chance at all for him to salvage this brutally bad season.
In order to accept things you need to be a little more tolerant or accepting of what DJ did in 2022. If you don't want to, then you will never understand the contract and instead you can bitterly count those paltry 15tds he threw in your sleep to make you feel better. Just don't forget the rushing yards and TDs because those count too.
HE had an average starting QB year and got paid for it. Welcome to pro sports. Killing the GM now? Cmon already you're gonna bail on this guy just like that? I thought he was Joe Cool?
One contract. Get over it.
And maybe he can come back in September and play like he did in 2022. I know, impossible. Sure.
It really isn't the end of the world unless you want to to be. NYG won 10 games in 2022 with Galloday walking through his routes and earning like 15 million or more.
Find great players. Everything else will fall into place, and yes, I mean QB as well. This staff knows how to scout and develop players. Don't lose sight of that just because they singned a guy you love to hate.
Carry on.
If I told you Jayden Daniels was there when the Giants were on the clock in the first round, and that Schoen and Daboll thought he could be a star, why would you pass on him because you have someone expensive? The idea of the draft is to acquire top talent everywhere. You can't take any position off the board that needs improvement because you already have a guy that plays the same position, but poorly.
The idea is to bring in talent and win football games, not carefully manage how much of your cap is going to the QB room.
You don't chase mistakes. You learn from them and move on.
To me the best coaches and GMs have strong convictions and aren't afraid to take big swings even if they aren't popular with fans and ownership. Howie Roseman drafting Hurts was widely ridiculed in Eagleland.
Schoen's decision to overpay a mediocre talent falls into one of three categories:
1. Poor analysis and evaluation
2. Giving into ownership
3. Playing it safe
They're all bad. He has an opportunity to fix it and I hope he starts on a course of bold decisions based on cutting edge thinking and analysis to take our team to the top.
What I do not want to do is blow it all up again. TC learned things late in his career, maybe Daboll can figure it out sooner. I think Schoen is the right guy, time will surely tell.
Constant turnover of management is an obstacle to success that is nearly insurmountable unless you can lure the very best. I don't see the best wanting to be here. Why would you come?
I'm okay with Schoen getting more time, too. But for his first big decision - the Jones contract - I believe he failed. So, I'm willing to see how he works he way out if it and into a better solution. But he should be on the clock...
Let me add this. I think the real way to build a football program at the NFL level is like the 49ers have it. The HC (Shanahan) picks the GM (Lynch) and the GM reports to the HC. And all personnel decisions are finalized by the HC. I don't want a GM to have final say or have to go to the owners to break a tie. The HC knows the system he wants to run and the type of players he wants to add.
Big college football programs have Directors of Recruiting and/or Heads of Football Operations who reports up to the HC. And they report up to the HC.
If I told you Jayden Daniels was there when the Giants were on the clock in the first round, and that Schoen and Daboll thought he could be a star, why would you pass on him because you have someone expensive? The idea of the draft is to acquire top talent everywhere. You can't take any position off the board that needs improvement because you already have a guy that plays the same position, but poorly.
The idea is to bring in talent and win football games, not carefully manage how much of your cap is going to the QB room.
You don't chase mistakes. You learn from them and move on.
I agree. I'm not sure the Giants will. They'd have to view Jones as a mistake first.
None of the expensive contracts to the lower tier QB's have worked (Jones, Carr, Garoppolo).
I actually think what the Packers did with Love was smart. Sign him cheap and avoid the NYG/Jones situation. They have him at a cheap deal for a few years and it looks like he can be serviceable.
Fair point ... or look at traditional team building. You can have an offense that can produce points "effeciently" without an elite QB. For it to work you need to have an excellent D and good to very good run game. ST needs a really good punter and coverage team. The rules has made KOs "easy" to handle.
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Hard to evaluate a GM early, it just is. Also, I am a business owner. If I am hiring a brilliant but inexperienced team member, I am expecting some mistakes. There is a lot of subjectivity in the decisions a GM must make and the best of them, blow the QB thing. There are just so few of them born that can actually succeed at QB in the NFL.
What I do not want to do is blow it all up again. TC learned things late in his career, maybe Daboll can figure it out sooner. I think Schoen is the right guy, time will surely tell.
Constant turnover of management is an obstacle to success that is nearly insurmountable unless you can lure the very best. I don't see the best wanting to be here. Why would you come?
I'm okay with Schoen getting more time, too. But for his first big decision - the Jones contract - I believe he failed. So, I'm willing to see how he works he way out if it and into a better solution. But he should be on the clock...
Let me add this. I think the real way to build a football program at the NFL level is like the 49ers have it. The HC (Shanahan) picks the GM (Lynch) and the GM reports to the HC. And all personnel decisions are finalized by the HC. I don't want a GM to have final say or have to go to the owners to break a tie. The HC knows the system he wants to run and the type of players he wants to add.
Big college football programs have Directors of Recruiting and/or Heads of Football Operations who reports up to the HC. And they report up to the HC.
John Madden said the best organizational structure is the one that has the fewest elements between the head coach and the owner. The modern day successful example of that is obviously the Patriots. It can go wrong obviously if you hire the wrong guy, but it does reduce the likelihood that all oars are not rowing synchronously in the same direction.
The Giants obviously don't have that structure. There are a lot of people influencing decisions.
The Athletic ranked the won/loss record of the 32 NFL owners.
Owner since: Oct. 26, 2005
Playoff record: 9-5 (2-0 in Super Bowls)
Coach inherited: Tom Coughlin
Coaches hired: Ben McAdoo (13-15), Pat Shurmur (9-23), Joe Judge (10-23), Brian Daboll (13-15-1)
The Mara name is legendary in the NFL, but the franchise’s trajectory since Hall of Famer Wellington Mara merits some scrutiny.
With Coughlin already in place, the Giants won two Super Bowls in the first six seasons after John Mara took over for his father. The team ranks 27th in winning percentage since that second Super Bowl victory following the 2011 season. The Giants’ 82-123-1 (.400) record over that span outranks the records for the Commanders, Raiders, Jets, Browns and Jaguars. The Lions recently overtook the Giants since 2012.
The Giants won/loss record ranks 27th in the NFL since 2012.
The Athletic ranked the won/loss record of the 32 NFL owners.
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Number 20: John Mara
Owner since: Oct. 26, 2005
Playoff record: 9-5 (2-0 in Super Bowls)
Coach inherited: Tom Coughlin
Coaches hired: Ben McAdoo (13-15), Pat Shurmur (9-23), Joe Judge (10-23), Brian Daboll (13-15-1)
The Mara name is legendary in the NFL, but the franchise’s trajectory since Hall of Famer Wellington Mara merits some scrutiny.
With Coughlin already in place, the Giants won two Super Bowls in the first six seasons after John Mara took over for his father. The team ranks 27th in winning percentage since that second Super Bowl victory following the 2011 season. The Giants’ 82-123-1 (.400) record over that span outranks the records for the Commanders, Raiders, Jets, Browns and Jaguars. The Lions recently overtook the Giants since 2012.
The Giants won/loss record ranks 27th in the NFL since 2012.