I am not in the QB or bust camp.
I think games a still mainly won and lost at the
line of scrimmage.
If JS wants to go QB at # 6 likely no need to trade
up. I would rather have the health risk of Penix than
the cost of moving up. This year he has a great line
and wide outs but I watched him torch the Wolverines
for 350 yards when he was at Indiana and was not
surrounded by great talent.
Tonight we will see an excellent pocket passer
vs a very mobile QB with a great arm but a little lacking
in touch.
Great game
Go Blur
Giants threads
All of them
Please
Hasn't missed a game in the last 2 years.
Daniel Jones, however...
Quote:
Is a walking hospital bed. No thanks.
Hasn't missed a game in the last 2 years.
Daniel Jones, however...
If we were going to "reach" for a QB, he's one QB that I'd definitely be looking forward to seeing in camp and the season before passing judgement. For example, I'd be much less enthusiastic about taking McCarthy or Nix, especially anywhere in the 1st.
If he throw from the pocket like he does now and move around enough to avoid sacks, I could not give two shits if he can gain yards running zone reads or bootlegs.
What could possibly go wrong?
There is a good article on ESPN+ about McCarthy and Penix and the wide range of opinions NFL scouts/execs have about each. There is zero consensus on these guys.
One NFL exec on the west coast who has followed Penix closely for a long time said Penix is actually playing in a one-read offense with excellent receivers, and once the season ends Penix's stock will level off. On the other end, some scouts are super-bullish on him and think he's right there with Daniels.
There should be little doubt Penix has more throwing skills than Jones. So, that's a big positive if he's the choice. On the other hand, however, there is a basket of question marks that should signal a big buyer beware for a big investment.
What could possibly go wrong?
It's only being discussed because he throws the ball better than Jones has in his life.
If you love him so much, round two is a weird way to show it.
He'll probably be long gone by then.
Quote:
He checks an awful lot of boxes, but those 2 ACL surgeries and 2 shoulder injuries are enough to make me pause big time. In addition, he has faced little to no pressure in his college career. So, it's impossible to gauge how he handles NFL pressure or even a normal NFL snap when he has to get rid of the ball much quicker.
There is a good article on ESPN+ about McCarthy and Penix and the wide range of opinions NFL scouts/execs have about each. There is zero consensus on these guys.
One NFL exec on the west coast who has followed Penix closely for a long time said Penix is actually playing in a one-read offense with excellent receivers, and once the season ends Penix's stock will level off. On the other end, some scouts are super-bullish on him and think he's right there with Daniels.
There should be little doubt Penix has more throwing skills than Jones. So, that's a big positive if he's the choice. On the other hand, however, there is a basket of question marks that should signal a big buyer beware for a big investment.
If we were talking about using one of our 2nd round selections to take Penix I could get behind that. Spare me the "he won't be there in Round 2" as you told me that with Willis, it happened last year with Levis, etc. I just do not see any QB outside of the top 3 guys (Williams, Daniels, Maye) that I would give a 1st Round grade to.
One NFL exec on the west coast who has followed Penix closely for a long time said Penix is actually playing in a one-read offense with excellent receivers, and once the season ends Penix's stock will level off.
I remember reading elsewhere that going through multiple progressions quickly was a strength of his, so it'll be interesting to see where the truth is.
Quote:
He checks an awful lot of boxes, but those 2 ACL surgeries and 2 shoulder injuries are enough to make me pause big time. In addition, he has faced little to no pressure in his college career. So, it's impossible to gauge how he handles NFL pressure or even a normal NFL snap when he has to get rid of the ball much quicker.
There is a good article on ESPN+ about McCarthy and Penix and the wide range of opinions NFL scouts/execs have about each. There is zero consensus on these guys.
One NFL exec on the west coast who has followed Penix closely for a long time said Penix is actually playing in a one-read offense with excellent receivers, and once the season ends Penix's stock will level off. On the other end, some scouts are super-bullish on him and think he's right there with Daniels.
There should be little doubt Penix has more throwing skills than Jones. So, that's a big positive if he's the choice. On the other hand, however, there is a basket of question marks that should signal a big buyer beware for a big investment.
Penix does not play in a one-read offense, McCarthy does. Either that exec is incompetent, or he’s throwing shade. You can literally see Penix scan across the field. His processing is one of his best attributes.
If we were talking about using one of our 2nd round selections to take Penix I could get behind that. Spare me the "he won't be there in Round 2" as you told me that with Willis, it happened last year with Levis, etc. I just do not see any QB outside of the top 3 guys (Williams, Daniels, Maye) that I would give a 1st Round grade to.
Not sure what you are referring to. I wouldn't touch Penix until day two or three.
And I completely agree with your top three.
Penix does not play in a one-read offense, McCarthy does. Either that exec is incompetent, or he’s throwing shade. You can literally see Penix scan across the field. His processing is one of his best attributes.
Agreed, it's a bizarre criticism. If you've watched him play you can clearly see him go through his progressions at various points in each game
Quote:
If we were talking about using one of our 2nd round selections to take Penix I could get behind that. Spare me the "he won't be there in Round 2" as you told me that with Willis, it happened last year with Levis, etc. I just do not see any QB outside of the top 3 guys (Williams, Daniels, Maye) that I would give a 1st Round grade to.
Not sure what you are referring to. I wouldn't touch Penix until day two or three.
And I completely agree with your top three.
Sorry bw I misread your post. I thought you were advocating taking Penix at 6 if the top three are gone (Maye is definitely my QB3, but QB1/2 I go back and forth on and it really depends on how you have scouted Williams's toolbox. The leadership questions scare me if you are looking at a franchise QB). My post was directed towards the people who seem to be BQBA at 6.
Quote:
If we were talking about using one of our 2nd round selections to take Penix I could get behind that. Spare me the "he won't be there in Round 2" as you told me that with Willis, it happened last year with Levis, etc. I just do not see any QB outside of the top 3 guys (Williams, Daniels, Maye) that I would give a 1st Round grade to.
Not sure what you are referring to. I wouldn't touch Penix until day two or three.
And I completely agree with your top three.
It's great that he can make every throw and do so accurately. But, so should EVERY prospect when given 4-5 seconds to stand tall in the pocket. I think his ceiling is really high, but his floor is also lower than the top QBs. That's enough to scare me off.
Curious - how do you view Nix or McCarthy?
poor footwork
poor mechanics
long list of injuries
Yep, I can see him going 6th.
Quote:
In comment 16353380 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
If we were talking about using one of our 2nd round selections to take Penix I could get behind that. Spare me the "he won't be there in Round 2" as you told me that with Willis, it happened last year with Levis, etc. I just do not see any QB outside of the top 3 guys (Williams, Daniels, Maye) that I would give a 1st Round grade to.
Not sure what you are referring to. I wouldn't touch Penix until day two or three.
And I completely agree with your top three.
Agreed. I briefly thought about trading up to end of round 1 for Penix. But, then I think about his knees and shoulder and just can't see spending EXTRA draft capital on him. That's without even factoring in his lack of pressure.
It's great that he can make every throw and do so accurately. But, so should EVERY prospect when given 4-5 seconds to stand tall in the pocket. I think his ceiling is really high, but his floor is also lower than the top QBs. That's enough to scare me off.
Curious - how do you view Nix or McCarthy?
The Day 2 QB that intrigues me is Cameron Ward IF you have a plan to redshirt him this year. That means having a back-up that can stay on the field because I don't trust Jones to stay healthy. There is a lot of potential there, but he needs to learn the mechanics. McCarthy is frustrating because there are plays where he clearly looks like a 1st Round QB and others where he frustrates you because he is looking for a window that he will never get in the NFL. Bo Nix I think needs someone like Kyle Shannahan or you are looking at a career back-up. The success this year I think is a byproduct of the Oregon offense and Nix's experience vs. a change mechanically. Daniels produced the same or better against much better defenses in the SEC despite throwing the ball downfield more. If he kept everything as close to the LOS as Nix did I think you are talking about the first QB with 80% completion percentage.
I am not saying Kiper is right by any stretch, but if you have him similarly rated as the #10 prospect, you grab him at #6 if he is there. If you think he #30 to #40, then yeah, see if he is there in the second round.
Some people here seem to have this weird fetish about picking every player in some small window of perceived value.
Penix does not play in a one-read offense, McCarthy does. Either that exec is incompetent, or he’s throwing shade. You can literally see Penix scan across the field. His processing is one of his best attributes.
I didn't put a lot of stock in the comment. Just relaying the thought.
As I've said scores of times, nobody has any idea, including the professional evaluators, how any of these QBs will make the transition from processing the college game to the more complicated pro game.
That, to me, is what makes QB assessments so impossibility hard.
I have heard some people moving him up high in the first round but I think that could change with a poor game tonight. If he plays great tonight the the momentum will grow. Then it comes down to the medicals imv and comfort level from teams.
While Daniels was healthier in college, he's built like a receiver and a big part of his game is taking off and running. There's only one Lamar Jackson in terms of avoiding big hits and even he misses games. Anthony Richardson is built like a tank and he didn't last very long this year for the Colts.
I am not saying Kiper is right by any stretch, but if you have him similarly rated as the #10 prospect, you grab him at #6 if he is there. If you think he #30 to #40, then yeah, see if he is there in the second round.
Some people here seem to have this weird fetish about picking every player in some small window of perceived value.
Yup. I think people place too much emphasis on specific picks rather than just drafting well as a matter of policy.
Quote:
In comment 16353405 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16353380 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
If we were talking about using one of our 2nd round selections to take Penix I could get behind that. Spare me the "he won't be there in Round 2" as you told me that with Willis, it happened last year with Levis, etc. I just do not see any QB outside of the top 3 guys (Williams, Daniels, Maye) that I would give a 1st Round grade to.
Not sure what you are referring to. I wouldn't touch Penix until day two or three.
And I completely agree with your top three.
Agreed. I briefly thought about trading up to end of round 1 for Penix. But, then I think about his knees and shoulder and just can't see spending EXTRA draft capital on him. That's without even factoring in his lack of pressure.
It's great that he can make every throw and do so accurately. But, so should EVERY prospect when given 4-5 seconds to stand tall in the pocket. I think his ceiling is really high, but his floor is also lower than the top QBs. That's enough to scare me off.
Curious - how do you view Nix or McCarthy?
The Day 2 QB that intrigues me is Cameron Ward IF you have a plan to redshirt him this year. That means having a back-up that can stay on the field because I don't trust Jones to stay healthy. There is a lot of potential there, but he needs to learn the mechanics. McCarthy is frustrating because there are plays where he clearly looks like a 1st Round QB and others where he frustrates you because he is looking for a window that he will never get in the NFL. Bo Nix I think needs someone like Kyle Shannahan or you are looking at a career back-up. The success this year I think is a byproduct of the Oregon offense and Nix's experience vs. a change mechanically. Daniels produced the same or better against much better defenses in the SEC despite throwing the ball downfield more. If he kept everything as close to the LOS as Nix did I think you are talking about the first QB with 80% completion percentage.
Instead, we are likely to be debating WR vs. OL vs. trade down. I just don't want to go into next season with a recovering Jones and a journey-man backup and DeVito for the practice squad.
We seldom provide a pocket, and when we do it doesn't last very long.
Umm, yes it is..
Thanks. That's mor or less how I see those 2. For me, the guy I would love is Daniels. I think he will be the best of the bunch. It would be a real G-d send if a couple of teams above us shock everyone by not taking the QB they were expected to and Daniels was just sitting there at 6. They couldn't get to the podium fast enough in that hypothetical.
Instead, we are likely to be debating WR vs. OL vs. trade down. I just don't want to go into next season with a recovering Jones and a journey-man backup and DeVito for the practice squad.
If Chicago does indeed move the #1 pick I think it puts Daniels (or Maye, depending on which one is first off the board) in play for the Giants. You would think Washington or New England are the best bets to move up to get "their guy". Chicago takes MHJ at 2 or 3 and then Arizona is likely open for business at 4. Far less costly/painful than trying to move up to 1.
Jones will never be a top 5 QB. It's time to move on.
Quote:
set this franchise back 5 years! Draft the best olineman available, get a new coach and Jones will be a top 5 qb! Not to mention the run game will improve.
Jones will never be a top 5 QB. It's time to move on.
Hey now. What about in the CFL?
I wasn't about a month ago, now, it's evident he's got the goods. I think at this point, it's whether he checks out of with medicals.
Quote:
Penix does not play in a one-read offense, McCarthy does. Either that exec is incompetent, or he’s throwing shade. You can literally see Penix scan across the field. His processing is one of his best attributes.
I didn't put a lot of stock in the comment. Just relaying the thought.
As I've said scores of times, nobody has any idea, including the professional evaluators, how any of these QBs will make the transition from processing the college game to the more complicated pro game.
That, to me, is what makes QB assessments so impossibility hard.
Sorry if I made it sound like a criticism of you, bw, that wasn’t my intent. You’re right, QB is the toughest position to evaluate. There are definitely warts in Penix’s game, for example, his passes over the middle have a tendency to sail. I suspect it has to do with his unorthodox delivery, but if that can’t be corrected, it limits him as a potential starter.
I am not saying Kiper is right by any stretch, but if you have him similarly rated as the #10 prospect, you grab him at #6 if he is there. If you think he #30 to #40, then yeah, see if he is there in the second round.
Some people here seem to have this weird fetish about picking every player in some small window of perceived value.
You have to place a value on any player you like. Now making the window of value to small is a valid critique, but if you have a guy valued at 20, you shouldn’t take him at 6. I like Penix, but there are legitimate questions about his game that the top 3 don’t necessarily have. I wouldn’t take him at 6, but I would look to move back into the first round if he dropped. If someone jumps you to take him, that’s the way it goes.
And he is going to kill it. He is the best QB in college by a wide margin. I have watched every one of his games. He is the guy we would love to have behind center for the next 10 years.
EVERYTHING IN NFL BEGINS WITH QB
The injury concerns are fair, but lets not act like Penix's ceiling as a thrower isn't much higher than DJ's was coming out of college.
I am not saying Kiper is right by any stretch, but if you have him similarly rated as the #10 prospect, you grab him at #6 if he is there. If you think he #30 to #40, then yeah, see if he is there in the second round.
Some people here seem to have this weird fetish about picking every player in some small window of perceived value.
This. I made a thread about it a few months back. If you like a QB in the first round, you won't risk losing him if over 15 draft slots.
The injury concerns are fair, but lets not act like Penix's ceiling as a thrower isn't much higher than DJ's was coming out of college.
Indeed. Jones isn't in the same universe as a thrower compared to Penix. I'm always amused when posters try to convince the board that Jones can make every throw.
It's unbelievable.
Quote:
He checks an awful lot of boxes, but those 2 ACL surgeries and 2 shoulder injuries are enough to make me pause big time. In addition, he has faced little to no pressure in his college career. So, it's impossible to gauge how he handles NFL pressure or even a normal NFL snap when he has to get rid of the ball much quicker.
There is a good article on ESPN+ about McCarthy and Penix and the wide range of opinions NFL scouts/execs have about each. There is zero consensus on these guys.
One NFL exec on the west coast who has followed Penix closely for a long time said Penix is actually playing in a one-read offense with excellent receivers, and once the season ends Penix's stock will level off. On the other end, some scouts are super-bullish on him and think he's right there with Daniels.
There should be little doubt Penix has more throwing skills than Jones. So, that's a big positive if he's the choice. On the other hand, however, there is a basket of question marks that should signal a big buyer beware for a big investment.
Quote:
DJ at 6 was a remote thrower.
Umm, yes it is..
At least we can agree that Penix as a prospect is far, FAR more accomplished than Jones ever was. Right?
There is a good article on ESPN+ about McCarthy and Penix and the wide range of opinions NFL scouts/execs have about each. There is zero consensus on these guys.
One NFL exec on the west coast who has followed Penix closely for a long time said Penix is actually playing in a one-read offense with excellent receivers, and once the season ends Penix's stock will level off. On the other end, some scouts are super-bullish on him and think he's right there with Daniels.
There should be little doubt Penix has more throwing skills than Jones. So, that's a big positive if he's the choice. On the other hand, however, there is a basket of question marks that should signal a big buyer beware for a big investment.
I don’t get where that “one read” nonsense came from. Most I’ve talked too, and my own eyes, not only see this kid go through progression, but he makes good pre snap reads as well.
It doesn't bother me. It's just one anonymous opinion. And if that's the majority of the offense under DeBoer, I say BFD. It's working for UDub, especially with that quality of WRs, that excellent OL and Penix pulling the trigger.
Quote:
You don't really care about injuries or deficiencies unless you are talking Jones. Pennix later sure but at 6 that is a risky forced move and you pass on much better players at other positions.
Jones has Kneck injuries. That’s different. As long as the shoulder checks out I could give two shits about ACL on a QB that operates predominantly from the pocket.
My exact thoughts. He’s not expected to run an injured himself like Jones would..
For me, it still holds - not a day one prospect.
Quote:
with a guy who’s had two ACL surgeries AND a shoulder surgery before he’s turned 24. Oh, and let’s take him at 6 too.
What could possibly go wrong?
It's only being discussed because he throws the ball better than Jones has in his life.
Quote:
In comment 16353354 bwitz said:
Quote:
with a guy who’s had two ACL surgeries AND a shoulder surgery before he’s turned 24. Oh, and let’s take him at 6 too.
What could possibly go wrong?
It's only being discussed because he throws the ball better than Jones has in his life.
Penix is Justin Fields part 2, Penix will never be the qb Jones is, drafting this guy at 6 will set the franchise back 5 years!
Are you his mom? Some kind of family relation, surely.
He's not that good-looking.
Two things...
I have no issue with you not being sold on Penix, but you do realize your guy has already set the organization back five years.
Yesterday, I brought your name up as one of the C-Suite members of the DJFC. I just want to make sure you are comfortable with that. I assumed so... ;)
Quote:
In comment 16353354 bwitz said:
Quote:
with a guy who’s had two ACL surgeries AND a shoulder surgery before he’s turned 24. Oh, and let’s take him at 6 too.
What could possibly go wrong?
It's only being discussed because he throws the ball better than Jones has in his life.
Penix is Justin Fields part 2, Penix will never be the qb Jones is, drafting this guy at 6 will set the franchise back 5 years!
Jones has already set the franchise back 5 years, 6 on tap ...
Fields throws an excellent ball. True power arm. He just doesn't always know where it's going.
Quote:
In comment 16353354 bwitz said:
Quote:
with a guy who’s had two ACL surgeries AND a shoulder surgery before he’s turned 24. Oh, and let’s take him at 6 too.
What could possibly go wrong?
It's only being discussed because he throws the ball better than Jones has in his life.
Penix is Justin Fields part 2, Penix will never be the qb Jones is, drafting this guy at 6 will set the franchise back 5 years!
Not even bothering to conceal your racism. Interesting approach.
Quote:
He's a pocket passer. Fields is a runner. Penix throws a beautiful ball. Fields doesn't.
Fields throws an excellent ball. True power arm. He just doesn't always know where it's going.
That made me laugh...
Quote:
In comment 16353354 bwitz said:
Quote:
with a guy who’s had two ACL surgeries AND a shoulder surgery before he’s turned 24. Oh, and let’s take him at 6 too.
What could possibly go wrong?
It's only being discussed because he throws the ball better than Jones has in his life.
Penix is Justin Fields part 2, Penix will never be the qb Jones is, drafting this guy at 6 will set the franchise back 5 years!
How is Penix even remotely like Fields? You are seriously the dumbest poster here. Watch a football game for once.
Quote:
In comment 16353354 bwitz said:
Quote:
with a guy who’s had two ACL surgeries AND a shoulder surgery before he’s turned 24. Oh, and let’s take him at 6 too.
What could possibly go wrong?
It's only being discussed because he throws the ball better than Jones has in his life.
Penix is Justin Fields part 2, Penix will never be the qb Jones is, drafting this guy at 6 will set the franchise back 5 years!
Quote:
In comment 16353365 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
In comment 16353354 bwitz said:
Quote:
with a guy who’s had two ACL surgeries AND a shoulder surgery before he’s turned 24. Oh, and let’s take him at 6 too.
What could possibly go wrong?
It's only being discussed because he throws the ball better than Jones has in his life.
Penix is Justin Fields part 2, Penix will never be the qb Jones is, drafting this guy at 6 will set the franchise back 5 years!
How is Penix even remotely like Fields? You are seriously the dumbest poster here. Watch a football game for once.
Everyone knows there is literally only ONE way that they're similar.
Jack is just too dumb to realize that he announced his racist views for all to see.
Here is what gets lost in the sauce. Getting selected in the second or third round is still a big deal. That shows an organization thinks you are talented. But the first round, especially the lottery, should be reserved for - IMO - the elite talent. Those prospects who have multiple elite skill sets.
I think he's still a 1st rounder. But it felt like he had top ten helium going into last night's game (if he had played well and UW had won), and now he's probably back in the mid/late 1st convo.
Someone is gonna want the 5th year option on him, IMO.
Quote:
I think yesterday put the brakes on. He's still going to be an interesting pick for someone, but I don't the 1st round is in his cards any longer.
Here is what gets lost in the sauce. Getting selected in the second or third round is still a big deal. That shows an organization thinks you are talented. But the first round, especially the lottery, should be reserved for - IMO - the elite talent. Those prospects who have multiple elite skill sets.
Quote:
I think yesterday put the brakes on. He's still going to be an interesting pick for someone, but I don't the 1st round is in his cards any longer.
I think he's still a 1st rounder. But it felt like he had top ten helium going into last night's game (if he had played well and UW had won), and now he's probably back in the mid/late 1st convo.
Someone is gonna want the 5th year option on him, IMO.
That’s the thing many people don’t take into account - it’s better to take a QB late in the 1st than early in the 2nd. Get that 5th year.
Penix didn’t help himself last night, but I agree that what he lost was any chance at being top 10. He’s still going in the first round.