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| Quote: |
| WBG84 @WBG84 "The headliner of the running back free agent class is New York Giants star Saquon Barkley, who has targeted the Texans as his top potential destination and has been communicating with Stroud, per league sources." - @AaronWilson_NFL #NYGiants #Texans |
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Bingo. Just have to hope we can reap as much in the Compensatory Pick formula to offset what we would have gotten for him in an in-season trade. Fat chance, though.
Yep. And we wouldn‘t have needed to trade up for our QB.
I get they don‘t want to piss players off but if he walks?
LOL at front office.
Talented? The Texans were 3-13-1 in 2022. Just shows you no team is that far, doesn't it?
You won’t be losing any sleep because — without Saquon Barkley — the Giants offense will be going into complete snooze mode. Sleep well.
"Saquon Barkley has said he does not want to be traded, and Brian Daboll attempted to squash trade overtures last week by saying a deal was “not happening.” But teams are still checking in. Clubs have continued to contact the Giants on Barkley, Jeff Howe of The Athletic tweets. Once again, the Giants rebuffed inquiries, with CBS Sports’ Josina Anderson confirming teams have received no’s on Barkley inquiries."
https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/teams-calling-giants-on-saquon-barkley - ( New Window )
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With a young, talented team on the rise.
Talented? The Texans were 3-13-1 in 2022. Just shows you no team is that far, doesn't it?
They filled the cupboards with their last draft.
"Saquon Barkley has said he does not want to be traded, and Brian Daboll attempted to squash trade overtures last week by saying a deal was “not happening.” But teams are still checking in. Clubs have continued to contact the Giants on Barkley, Jeff Howe of The Athletic tweets. Once again, the Giants rebuffed inquiries, with CBS Sports’ Josina Anderson confirming teams have received no’s on Barkley inquiries." https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/teams-calling-giants-on-saquon-barkley - ( New Window )
"Saquon Barkley has said he does not want to be traded, and Brian Daboll attempted to squash trade overtures last week by saying a deal was “not happening.” But teams are still checking in. Clubs have continued to contact the Giants on Barkley, Jeff Howe of The Athletic tweets. Once again, the Giants rebuffed inquiries, with CBS Sports’ Josina Anderson confirming teams have received no’s on Barkley inquiries." https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/teams-calling-giants-on-saquon-barkley - ( New Window )
Because the Giants didn’t want it to seem like they were raising the white flag on a fort which admittedly had already been breached on all four walls.
"Saquon Barkley has said he does not want to be traded, and Brian Daboll attempted to squash trade overtures last week by saying a deal was “not happening.” But teams are still checking in. Clubs have continued to contact the Giants on Barkley, Jeff Howe of The Athletic tweets. Once again, the Giants rebuffed inquiries, with CBS Sports’ Josina Anderson confirming teams have received no’s on Barkley inquiries." https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/teams-calling-giants-on-saquon-barkley - ( New Window )
Not trading Barkley at the deadline - many times, actually - has been as idiotic as trading for LW when we were a losing team going nowhere.
I'm begging for Team Barkley to get out of town with a deal, so Schoen doesn't make another colossal mistake.
Daboll wasn't surviving if this team went into the tank even more after starting 2-8.
The moves made for 2023 in retrospect delayed it again.
The rebuild starts when Jones & Barkley have moved on.
Yes we can draft a player which I hope we do, but I still think a veteran is going to need to be signed.
Doesn't seem to matter to so many here. Addition by subtraction!
Except it is just subtraction.
Yes we can draft a player which I hope we do, but I still think a veteran is going to need to be signed.
There are tons of decent RBs in free agency. Same with guards.
Daboll wasn't surviving if this team went into the tank even more after starting 2-8.
If Daboll went to Schoen and Mara and said they might not win another game trading Barkley but can get a second and thtat's best for the team, why would that jeopardize his job?
The owner didn't fire DAVE GETTLEMAN despite it being obvious he sucked three months into his job. He could have some backbone on Daboll.
"Saquon Barkley has said he does not want to be traded, and Brian Daboll attempted to squash trade overtures last week by saying a deal was “not happening.” But teams are still checking in. Clubs have continued to contact the Giants on Barkley, Jeff Howe of The Athletic tweets. Once again, the Giants rebuffed inquiries, with CBS Sports’ Josina Anderson confirming teams have received no’s on Barkley inquiries." https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/teams-calling-giants-on-saquon-barkley - ( New Window )
Maybe they felt the 3rd or 4th rounder coming back (if it was that) wasn't enough? And weren't the Giants mathematically alive for a playoff spot at the trade deadline? I guess that's not a factor.
"Saquon Barkley has said he does not want to be traded, and Brian Daboll attempted to squash trade overtures last week by saying a deal was “not happening.” But teams are still checking in. Clubs have continued to contact the Giants on Barkley, Jeff Howe of The Athletic tweets. Once again, the Giants rebuffed inquiries, with CBS Sports’ Josina Anderson confirming teams have received no’s on Barkley inquiries." https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/teams-calling-giants-on-saquon-barkley - ( New Window )
passing on trading him after passing on extending him was moronic. there is a very tiny window for any kind of sensible outcome.
This team has reset shit so many times I lost count. The problem is all the picks they accrue don't amount to fuck all.
Daboll wasn't surviving if this team went into the tank even more after starting 2-8.
Daboll was not getting fired.
But at least we had Tommy Cutlets and Tyrod Taylor. We were definitely gonna win it all. Our OL was so awesome.
"Saquon Barkley has said he does not want to be traded, and Brian Daboll attempted to squash trade overtures last week by saying a deal was “not happening.” But teams are still checking in. Clubs have continued to contact the Giants on Barkley, Jeff Howe of The Athletic tweets. Once again, the Giants rebuffed inquiries, with CBS Sports’ Josina Anderson confirming teams have received no’s on Barkley inquiries." https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/teams-calling-giants-on-saquon-barkley - ( New Window )
Because they still want him, believing they could and will build an O line to use him fully, AND, they hope they can make the money work.
Didn't need the reminder but thanks.
So I guess we don't care about the important questions like what was offered for Barkley...and whether a mid round pick is worth it. Sounds like they want to keep him here and value his 24 season more than the mid round pick. But who knows.
Seems pretty clear to me. They dumped Williams. They obviously were thinking long term at least on some level when they made that deal.
Maybe they didn't move Barkley because Mara forced them to keep him. Go ahead and say it lol.
Now, they have a good chance to get nothing. I've been on the "trade Saquon" bandwagon for since the trade deadline in 2022.
As posted above, the worst thing for the Giants was the fool's gold of 2022.
The worst thing to happen was Andrew Thomas and BArkley going down to injury at about the same time last year when the toughest part of the schedule was looming. They team wins the Bills and Jets game if those guys are playing. INstead they are 1-6 or whatever and the season was lost. 3-4 and we're alive. Granted, they probably still go 8-9.
Winning 10 games and a playoff game was good. It stopped a brutal run of bad seasons. It also bodes well for the future or at least indicates that this regime can get things done on some level.
Kill me for it I don't care. I like good seasons.
"Saquon Barkley has said he does not want to be traded, and Brian Daboll attempted to squash trade overtures last week by saying a deal was “not happening.” But teams are still checking in. Clubs have continued to contact the Giants on Barkley, Jeff Howe of The Athletic tweets. Once again, the Giants rebuffed inquiries, with CBS Sports’ Josina Anderson confirming teams have received no’s on Barkley inquiries." https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/teams-calling-giants-on-saquon-barkley - ( New Window )
If they could have gotten a 3rd, I'd have been happy.
That is completely unrealistic. 2nd or 3rd rounder? The locker room would have fucking murdered you.
The worst thing to happen was Andrew Thomas and BArkley going down to injury at about the same time last year when the toughest part of the schedule was looming. They team wins the Bills and Jets game if those guys are playing. INstead they are 1-6 or whatever and the season was lost. 3-4 and we're alive. Granted, they probably still go 8-9.
Winning 10 games and a playoff game was good. It stopped a brutal run of bad seasons. It also bodes well for the future or at least indicates that this regime can get things done on some level.
Kill me for it I don't care. I like good seasons.
It's delayed the rebuild and caused the Giants to waste time and resources spent better elsewhere. So it was only a temporary high that may ultimately contribute to another regime change.
That's just nuts.
The team finished 6-11 and has the 6th pick in the draft.
You are saying you would rather have had Barkley for November and December rather than an extra pick this year. That's nuts.
That is completely unrealistic. 2nd or 3rd rounder? The locker room would have fucking murdered you.
It would have been a difficult sell, but Barkley's trade value was never higher than in October 2022. He had a stellar first half and then had a bad second half.
The Giants may have gotten a late 1st round pick for him in October 2022.
This isn't me saying this in hindsight. I said it at the time.
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I am glad they made the playoffs in 2022. I like good seasons. That was not the worst thing by any means.
The worst thing to happen was Andrew Thomas and BArkley going down to injury at about the same time last year when the toughest part of the schedule was looming. They team wins the Bills and Jets game if those guys are playing. INstead they are 1-6 or whatever and the season was lost. 3-4 and we're alive. Granted, they probably still go 8-9.
Winning 10 games and a playoff game was good. It stopped a brutal run of bad seasons. It also bodes well for the future or at least indicates that this regime can get things done on some level.
Kill me for it I don't care. I like good seasons.
It's delayed the rebuild and caused the Giants to waste time and resources spent better elsewhere. So it was only a temporary high that may ultimately contribute to another regime change.
Maybe so. What other moves? They decided against drafting better players because they won in 22? The only move they made that comes back to possibly bite us is the DJ deal. Fine, you don't have to kick Jones around anymore and his end of days contract that keeps so many up at night.
News for you all ,if they sucked in 22, they'd still suck today and we wouldn't have at least enjoyed one good season.
Ill take the good season.
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trade the best player in the middle of a playoff winning season in 2022.
That is completely unrealistic. 2nd or 3rd rounder? The locker room would have fucking murdered you.
It would have been a difficult sell, but Barkley's trade value was never higher than in October 2022. He had a stellar first half and then had a bad second half.
The Giants may have gotten a late 1st round pick for him in October 2022.
This isn't me saying this in hindsight. I said it at the time.
Fair enough. A first rounder, yes amazing but you aren't doing that if you're the GM/HC.
Why can't this team just draft better players and sign better players in FA and why are we blaming the good players here. So fucking tired of it. Blame the good ones. Never mind the bollocks.
Terrible decision. No defense for it.
They should have franchised Jones and let Barkley walk at that point.
You can get a very good RB and TE with those 3rd rounders - maybe even a OG or DT...
The Giants are 34-64-1 since they drafted Barkley, so I'd bet on you losing.
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Won’t be losing sleep over this.
You won’t be losing any sleep because — without Saquon Barkley — the Giants offense will be going into complete snooze mode. Sleep well.
As opposed to the last five years?
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the Giants had TWO wins by Halloween. TWO.
Didn't need the reminder but thanks.
So I guess we don't care about the important questions like what was offered for Barkley...and whether a mid round pick is worth it. Sounds like they want to keep him here and value his 24 season more than the mid round pick. But who knows.
It’s better than whatever the comp pick would be if they even get one. They’d also have that pick now, that would help with moving up for a QB
I'd be willing to wager a large sum of money on that.
Eric - why can we safely assume that?
You don't trade the face of the franchise when you are still alive mathematically for a playoff spot...
;)
But the 2025 3rd round compensatory pick (at best; probably 4th or worse in reality) definitely makes up for chasing a playoff berth that wasn't technically eliminated, but had been effectively crushed weeks earlier.
Just another half-measure from East Rutherford. Either keep him and KEEP him, or get something for him when you have the chance if you're going to let him walk anyway.
Good question about not trading him. The three games he was out might be the worst three game stretch of RB production in decades. Maybe that was a factor.
Big change in offensive productivity when he came back. I think a reasonable chance at least Daboll might have been fired if the offense stayed on the course it was w/o SB.
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but who do you replace him with? There's nobody on the current roster that is as good as Barkley.
Doesn't seem to matter to so many here. Addition by subtraction!
Except it is just subtraction.
And their shit runs down hill into the GM, coach, and all the fans like us.
"Saquon Barkley has said he does not want to be traded, and Brian Daboll attempted to squash trade overtures last week by saying a deal was “not happening.” But teams are still checking in. Clubs have continued to contact the Giants on Barkley, Jeff Howe of The Athletic tweets. Once again, the Giants rebuffed inquiries, with CBS Sports’ Josina Anderson confirming teams have received no’s on Barkley inquiries." https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/teams-calling-giants-on-saquon-barkley - ( New Window )
Because the Maratocracy reigns supreme. Trumps all other logical factors.
"Sir, I'd like to buy your car for $1,000."
"No thank you. I'm going to drive it two blocks to a cliff and then push it off instead of taking less than what it is worth."
"But I will always have those two blocks..."
Seems like someone is trying to drum up a market for Barkley to me.
I will hold out hope he'll be back.
I will hold out hope he'll be back.
The offense was boring & horrific even with Saquon.
My understanding is, the team remains open to multiple options, including memorializing Barkley’s potential legacy as a NY Giant, pending an agreement on mutual terms.
(Upon the departure Saquon Barkley from the Giants)
That Misters Joshua Harris, Jeffrey Robert Lurie and Jerral Wayne Jones individually send a letter of appreciation and a box of Masters Series Enriquestuardo chocolates ($8500.00)
to the distinguished New York Football Giants General Manager,
(expressing sincere gratitude and acknowledgement) for indulgences rendered to Mr. Joseph Schoen to the following address ...
1925 Giants Drive
East Rutherford, Nee Jersey
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me again why he wasn't traded before the deadline?
"Saquon Barkley has said he does not want to be traded, and Brian Daboll attempted to squash trade overtures last week by saying a deal was “not happening.” But teams are still checking in. Clubs have continued to contact the Giants on Barkley, Jeff Howe of The Athletic tweets. Once again, the Giants rebuffed inquiries, with CBS Sports’ Josina Anderson confirming teams have received no’s on Barkley inquiries." https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/teams-calling-giants-on-saquon-barkley - ( New Window )
Because the Giants didn’t want it to seem like they were raising the white flag on a fort which admittedly had already been breached on all four walls.
Well slap my ass and call me Sally, they sure had me fooled...
He will be good on an established team. It’s clear he can’t carry a team. For a guy that can break a big play anytime he rarely does it.
I’d like to see a different back in the Bradshaw mode than runs angry.
I couldn’t give those things away…finally got an offer that wasn’t insulting so we jumped.
After last year and a potential addition of SB…Looks like I left money on the table.
Texans fans will love him
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I’m told the #Giants and RB Saquon Barkley’s representatives had a ‘good (initial) meeting’ on Wednesday at the Scouting Combine, per source.
My understanding is, the team remains open to multiple options, including memorializing Barkley’s potential legacy as a NY Giant, pending an agreement on mutual terms.
This screams Mara all but telling Schoen to bring back Saquon because Saquon sells merch & all that jazz.
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ill take the player. You guys can have 2 3rd rounders for my one player. Let's see who wins.
The Giants are 34-64-1 since they drafted Barkley, so I'd bet on you losing.
16-15-1 the last 2 years with the new regime so does that mean they should view him as a winning player?
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I’m told the #Giants and RB Saquon Barkley’s representatives had a ‘good (initial) meeting’ on Wednesday at the Scouting Combine, per source.
My understanding is, the team remains open to multiple options, including memorializing Barkley’s potential legacy as a NY Giant, pending an agreement on mutual terms.
First, he doubled down on Jones. And now, Schoen might double down on Barkley.
Gettleman, V2, here we come.
Just wait for the triple down on Jones...
I've been conducting that train since last off-season, welcome aboard!
However, I do think the Jones contract & us possibly reupping Saquon @ an absurd price for an often injured 27 year old RB...John is running the show.
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If Barkley leaves and the Giants recoup no compensation, how Schoen handled last offseason deserves serious criticism.
I've been conducting that train since last off-season, welcome aboard!
some of his $ decisions were mind boggling. barkley and love the 2 most.
@JosinaAnderson
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I’m told the #Giants and RB Saquon Barkley’s representatives had a ‘good (initial) meeting’ on Wednesday at the Scouting Combine, per source.
My understanding is, the team remains open to multiple options, including memorializing Barkley’s potential legacy as a NY Giant, pending an agreement on mutual
As for Saquon, I think Mara views him as the 'face of the franchise' who puts asses in seats & sells merch. Never mind we haven't done shit since he's been drafted.
I keep going back to this quote after the Vikes WC win: "We're back!"-John Mara.
As for Saquon, I think Mara views him as the 'face of the franchise' who puts asses in seats & sells merch. Never mind we haven't done shit since he's been drafted.
I keep going back to this quote after the Vikes WC win: "We're back!"-John Mara.
You and others should calm down about the Minnesota game. Playoff wins are hard to come by in the NFL. Jones and Barkley shouldn’t be the future here but it’s not because they weren’t awesome in that game, they were.
2022 was a fun season that included a nice playoff win. Nothing more, nothing less.
As for Saquon, I think Mara views him as the 'face of the franchise' who puts asses in seats & sells merch. Never mind we haven't done shit since he's been drafted.
I keep going back to this quote after the Vikes WC win: "We're back!"-John Mara.
Johnny Boy is a mealy mouth know nothing, but he believes that he’s a know everything. The fact this putrid franchise is even entertaining another contract is criminal. But, Johnny Boy continues to call the shots.
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In comment 16412089 djm said:
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ill take the player. You guys can have 2 3rd rounders for my one player. Let's see who wins.
The Giants are 34-64-1 since they drafted Barkley, so I'd bet on you losing.
16-15-1 the last 2 years with the new regime so does that mean they should view him as a winning player?
The Giants are 15-18-1 the last two years. 16-19-1 if you count the postseason.
@JosinaAnderson
Follow
I’m told the #Giants and RB Saquon Barkley’s representatives had a ‘good (initial) meeting’ on Wednesday at the Scouting Combine, per source.
My understanding is, the team remains open to multiple options, including memorializing Barkley’s potential legacy as a NY Giant, pending an agreement on mutual
This 100 percent came from Barkley’s camp. They need to keep Giants in mix to get any market off ground over next couple weeks.
As for Saquon, I think Mara views him as the 'face of the franchise' who puts asses in seats & sells merch. Never mind we haven't done shit since he's been drafted.
I keep going back to this quote after the Vikes WC win: "We're back!"-John Mara.
To think I remember you started a thread last March about being happy for Jones getting his money. A lot sure has changed, ha!
Anyone want to take a guess how many of those 58 regular seasons were playoff game winning seasons? 10. 10 out of 58.
My bar has lowered to any season the Giants win a playoff game is a successful season. I'm glad the Giants didn't trade Barkley mid season in 2022. I'll gladly take the playoff win even though it stuck the Giants with Daniel Jones horrible contract and another year of Barkley on the franchise tag.
I have no doubt that the GM and HC know that Jones isn't the guy to go forward with after the two injuries last year and that Barkley has lost a step or more.
I am hopeful they let Barkley leave and that whoever they draft at QB quickly replaces Jones and the Giants release him when 2024 is over.
16-15-1 the last 2 years with the new regime so does that mean they should view him as a winning player?
The Giants are 15-18-1 the last two years. 16-19-1 if you count the postseason.
correct they were 0-4 in the games barkley missed. 3 injured with the ankle, 1 they held him out of bc they already clinched in 2022.
if your point is injuries, among all starting players, all positions, do you think missing 3 out of 36 games due to injury is better or worse than average?
weird and totally not arbitrary to take out a bunch of games barkley was key to winning.
I think a lot of us last year were happy for him given all the shit he's gotten, so in a brief moment after that Vikings game a lot of this fanbase embraced Jones.
It's what it is. Another QB will be brought in here, probably 2.
A 28 year old running back does not fit a rebuilding team.
If Barkley returns he does so with the stamp of Mara.
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With Barkley since the 6-1 start in 2022.
weird and totally not arbitrary to take out a bunch of games barkley was key to winning.
Weird and totally not arbitrary to take out the first four years of his career.
they could save $7m by cutting him and moving on (0 dead $ in '25).
waller has missed 13 games the last 2 seasons due to injury (4x barkley's 3).
he has the same 4 receiving tds in those 2 seasons as barkley (who also has another 16 rushing tds, 18 if you count playoffs).
team was 3-9 with waller in lineup.
team was 6-8 with barkley in lineup.
waller is entering his age 32 season.
barkley is entering his age 27 season.
the team actually has a decent young TE already on the roster that can be part of the solution replacing waller. he played 17 games this season and caught 25 of 28 targets his way for the same 10 ypc as waller.
the questions:
1. if you simply had a choice of 1 player or the other, cap considerations aside since they are likely comparable, is the answer not obvious?
2. assuming the most common answer is "dump both of them" because people generally lash out at rhetorical questions, why aren't there multiple threads and 100s of comments each day wanting waller gone?
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In comment 16412321 ajr2456 said:
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With Barkley since the 6-1 start in 2022.
weird and totally not arbitrary to take out a bunch of games barkley was key to winning.
Weird and totally not arbitrary to take out the first four years of his career.
unless theres some lingering injury consideration that pre-dates the last 2 years why would the current regime not evaluate his performance based on what they've asked him to do in their playcalls/gameplans and seen him do with their own 2 eyes, in what are also his 2 most recent seasons?
among all teams and all FAs about to hit the market, what do you think is most important? what they've done in the last 2 years or what they did prior?
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With Barkley since the 6-1 start in 2022.
weird and totally not arbitrary to take out a bunch of games barkley was key to winning.
So we can arbitrarily only count the new regime? Barkley hasn’t been the same player since that start. He’s had 7 sub 50 yard rushing games since. That’s more relevant than games that were a year and a half ago.
The "cap considerations aside" in this context reads to me like asking if I would keep Barkley for a $7M incremental cap hit in 2024 with no guaranteed 2025 cap obligations or liability, and to that I'd personally answer yes.
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In comment 16412321 ajr2456 said:
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With Barkley since the 6-1 start in 2022.
weird and totally not arbitrary to take out a bunch of games barkley was key to winning.
So we can arbitrarily only count the new regime? Barkley hasn’t been the same player since that start. He’s had 7 sub 50 yard rushing games since. That’s more relevant than games that were a year and a half ago.
we aren't deciding anything.
the new regime is deciding. put yourself in their shoes, which do you think they value more, their own first hand time with the player or whatever happened when they werent there?
when/if you ask(or asked) a partner to marry you, would you base that decision on the years you spent together or prior years when they were with someone else?
2. assuming the most common answer is "dump both of them" because people generally lash out at rhetorical questions, why aren't there multiple threads and 100s of comments each day wanting waller gone?
Barkley was the #2 pick in the draft. A home-grown product with enormous expectations who happens to play one of the most controversial positions in the NFL.
So, it should come as no surprise he gets the attention, especially after last season's drama with the FT.
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1. if you simply had a choice of 1 player or the other, cap considerations aside since they are likely comparable, is the answer not obvious?
The "cap considerations aside" in this context reads to me like asking if I would keep Barkley for a $7M incremental cap hit in 2024 with no guaranteed 2025 cap obligations or liability, and to that I'd personally answer yes.
i expect that a barkley 2024 cap hit would be close to the waller saved $ delta and the barkley 2025 cap hit would be less than wallers by more than that difference (id imagine his 2 year cap hits total around 22m vs waller 29.5m). there would obviously be more guaranteed money to barkley which would make that 2nd year effectively guaranteed but that can be structured to where he's as tradeable as he was this year. either year you cut waller there is dead$ (7.4m this year, 5m next year, plus the 12m+ or so non-gtd salary he'd collect this year).
i put cap considerations aside because i think those 2 scenarios aren't that different (one side is cheaper AAV the other side less gtd - neither contract would be prohibitive given nyg cap situation so i think you'd just want to pick whichever was the preferable player). if you keep waller this year and cut him next year, that's $5m of cap space lost so maybe that's 5m-7m less than barkley's year 2 would cost?
we aren't deciding anything.
the new regime is deciding. put yourself in their shoes, which do you think they value more, their own first hand time with the player or whatever happened when they werent there?
when/if you ask(or asked) a partner to marry you, would you base that decision on the years you spent together or prior years when they were with someone else?
Thanks, I didn’t know we aren’t deciding anything.
If you’ve spent the last year and half in a disappointing marriage are you going to spend more money to hope it turns around just because the first couple of months were really good?
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2. assuming the most common answer is "dump both of them" because people generally lash out at rhetorical questions, why aren't there multiple threads and 100s of comments each day wanting waller gone?
Barkley was the #2 pick in the draft. A home-grown product with enormous expectations who happens to play one of the most controversial positions in the NFL.
So, it should come as no surprise he gets the attention, especially after last season's drama with the FT.
didnt he report on time while taylor/jacobs held out?
Barkley was the #2 pick in the draft. A home-grown product with enormous expectations who happens to play one of the most controversial positions in the NFL.
So, it should come as no surprise he gets the attention, especially after last season's drama with the FT.
didnt he report on time while taylor/jacobs held out?
Yes.
But what does that have to do with your question about Barkley v Waller?
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In comment 16412377 Eric on Li said:
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1. if you simply had a choice of 1 player or the other, cap considerations aside since they are likely comparable, is the answer not obvious?
The "cap considerations aside" in this context reads to me like asking if I would keep Barkley for a $7M incremental cap hit in 2024 with no guaranteed 2025 cap obligations or liability, and to that I'd personally answer yes.
i expect that a barkley 2024 cap hit would be close to the waller saved $ delta and the barkley 2025 cap hit would be less than wallers by more than that difference (id imagine his 2 year cap hits total around 22m vs waller 29.5m). there would obviously be more guaranteed money to barkley which would make that 2nd year effectively guaranteed but that can be structured to where he's as tradeable as he was this year. either year you cut waller there is dead$ (7.4m this year, 5m next year, plus the 12m+ or so non-gtd salary he'd collect this year).
i put cap considerations aside because i think those 2 scenarios aren't that different (one side is cheaper AAV the other side less gtd - neither contract would be prohibitive given nyg cap situation so i think you'd just want to pick whichever was the preferable player). if you keep waller this year and cut him next year, that's $5m of cap space lost so maybe that's 5m-7m less than barkley's year 2 would cost?
We're already on the hook for Waller though, so the only way to realistically put cap considerations aside would be to ask if Barkley is worth retaining for precisely the dollar-to-dollar cost of terminating Waller's contract, right?
Ironically, it could be be argued that the guaranteed money attached to Waller's contract right now is only there in part due to the Giants' failure to reach a multi-year contract agreement with Barkley last year.
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we aren't deciding anything.
the new regime is deciding. put yourself in their shoes, which do you think they value more, their own first hand time with the player or whatever happened when they werent there?
when/if you ask(or asked) a partner to marry you, would you base that decision on the years you spent together or prior years when they were with someone else?
Thanks, I didn’t know we aren’t deciding anything.
If you’ve spent the last year and half in a disappointing marriage are you going to spend more money to hope it turns around just because the first couple of months were really good?
you are labeling the good 2 months vs the rest on 1 stat. he had a midseason slump in 2022 after the 40 carries vs houston but from the washington win on played well. his pff grade was comparable both years. tds same both years (even w 2 fewer games). same with big plays (20+ yards). same with rush yards over expected. both years graded at the top of pass pro with near the most pass pro snaps among rbs.
the offense was worse because they got worse qb play but most of his production was the same. his 3.9 ypc you are basing your argument around was still more than 1 yard per carry better than both his backups. even missing the 3 games he had the 10th most rush yards over expectation league wide.
those are all the reasons his contract projection is what it is and why he's ranked in the top 5-10 free agents that wont get tagged on most lists - apart from anything related to nyg.
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/rushing/2023/REG/all#ryoe - ( New Window )
Our OL can't block, we have no QB, and our passing game is a joke. The defense puts a spy or two on Barkley who follows him wherever he goes. Its an impossible situation, and the Giants know this because they try to run plays off of faking to Barkley (to draw the D to him). Raw stats are meaningless without context. No RB is going to succeed here. Put him on a team with a legitimate passing game that the D has to worry about, and an OL that can hold a block for a second or two, and it becomes much easier
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Barkley was the #2 pick in the draft. A home-grown product with enormous expectations who happens to play one of the most controversial positions in the NFL.
So, it should come as no surprise he gets the attention, especially after last season's drama with the FT.
didnt he report on time while taylor/jacobs held out?
Yes.
But what does that have to do with your question about Barkley v Waller?
i dont think it has anything to do with anything, which is why i didnt bring it up (you did)?
the question about barkley/waller was simply who anyone would rather have on the field going forward putting contracts aside since i see both costs as similar.
i dont think it has anything to do with anything, which is why i didnt bring it up (you did)?
the question about barkley/waller was simply who anyone would rather have on the field going forward putting contracts aside since i see both costs as similar.
I brought up Jacobs and Taylor holding out...??
You seem like a smart guy, but sometimes you really are hard to follow.
This is what you wrote:
And that was what I responded to.
We're already on the hook for Waller though
i think this is where there's a subtle misunderstanding of how the cap works as a practical thing when base salary is "not guaranteed". guaranteed or non-guaranteed doesnt matter IF it gets paid. then its all the same. the question waller vs barkley was who would you rather have, meaning to choose waller is to not cut him and pay him the non-guaranteed $ due this year.
waller currently carries 7.5m dead$. if cut right now that's where the story stops.
but if NOT cut (which again, was the question) this year waller is due 10.5m base plus another 1.5m of bonuses. so if you wait to cut waller until next year his 2 years worth of cap hits will total 18m-19.5m depending on how much of the bonuses he earns. barkley's first 2 year cap hits will prob be a little more than that but not by much without much dead money beyond.
7.5m of waller is already sunk cost so the delta is bigger when you consider that but you are also getting 2 years of barkley vs 1 for waller and paying for 1 of those 2 barkley years with wallers non-guaranteed $ this year.
i see keeping waller and committing a fresh $10.5-12m to him as a worse version of throwing good $ after bad than barkley and its my belief that most big spends are choosing from the least bad options.
You’re going to pay $13 million a year for a 27 year old running back in case the performance was because of the oline and the QB? Cmon man get out of the fantasy.
Barkley has been healthy for two of his six years. He hasn’t been elite in a year and a half. He hasn’t made a big enough impact on winning, and making the Giants a better team. He’s heading toward the downside of his career. As it currently stands there’s a good chance the Giants aren’t going to be good again next year, and who knows what age 28 and 29 seasons are going to bring for Barkley.
The Giants have been bad with Saqoun, and if they’re bad without him, so what? There’s zero logic to signing him to a multi year contract. Just sign a stop gap and draft a rookie if the opportunity presents itself.
Just because your favorite internet people project a value doesn’t mean it’s the right move to sign them to the contract.
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...why aren't there multiple threads and 100s of comments each day wanting waller gone?
And that was what I responded to.
you brought up the barkley ft drama as the reason people want him gone more than waller when barkley reported and didnt miss any of camp.
dont you think that's kind of a silly reason when waller has a contract that takes up more cap room than barkley's is projected to while being the more injured/less productive/5 years older player?
But this isn't about getting better. It's about wanting to keep a fan favorite. That's a perfectly valid approach to being a fan.
But so is wanting to build a winning team. Paying Barkley, Henry, or any other RB isn't the way to do that.
Take the Barkley money and invest it in the OL and/or DL. That's a better use of money in today's NFL.
Let Barkley go somewhere else. It will be evident early that he won't be missed.
You’re going to pay $13 million a year for a 27 year old running back in case the performance was because of the oline and the QB? Cmon man get out of the fantasy.
my question was if anyone thinks it's a better use of cap space to pay a 32 year old tight end who has missed 4x as many games as barkley the last 2 years 15m against the cap the next 2 years, including 11-13m new cash per year? for all the hot air about barkley i think that's the worse use of $ personally.
But this isn't about getting better. It's about wanting to keep a fan favorite. That's a perfectly valid approach to being a fan.
But so is wanting to build a winning team. Paying Barkley, Henry, or any other RB isn't the way to do that.
Take the Barkley money and invest it in the OL and/or DL. That's a better use of money in today's NFL.
Let Barkley go somewhere else. It will be evident early that he won't be missed.
if henry costs meaningfully less than barkley id have no issue with that. he has almost twice as many carries in his career and is 2 years older, so that's the only risk but if it means he comes at a discount that would be fine with me. no issue buying really low on ekeler off a down year either.
expensive vets are all flawed in some way or they wouldnt be available in the first place. christian's thread yesterday articulated it better than ive been able to (linked below). last year the same people who criticized deandre hopkins as washed up (he wasnt) and injury prone (he wasnt) were jumping for joy when they traded for waller because it was out of nowhere so nobody had time to tear it to shreds before it happened. acquiring expensive veterans is like entering the casino. doesnt matter what game you choose to play, dont walk in money you arent prepared to lose.
Another Look at NFL Free Agency in 2023 - ( New Window )
Didn’t love the DW trade but it was an understandable gamble. The injury part played out as expected. I’m leaning towards hoping he is cut before next year but don’t have a good sense what JS is gonna do.
As far as Barkley, I have no problem admitting I see both Jones and Barkley through Gettleman colored glasses. But now I just don't like the odds they will be successful players over the next year or two.
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You’re going to pay $13 million a year for a 27 year old running back in case the performance was because of the oline and the QB? Cmon man get out of the fantasy.
my question was if anyone thinks it's a better use of cap space to pay a 32 year old tight end who has missed 4x as many games as barkley the last 2 years 15m against the cap the next 2 years, including 11-13m new cash per year? for all the hot air about barkley i think that's the worse use of $ personally.
They should cut Waller too, not sure how that’s relevant to you trying to explain why signing Barkley is good
As for drafting a rookie, both sides are valid. People tend to make it really easy to find the gems some other teams do while dismissing our utter failure at it over the past decade, and all the other teams in the same boat. This time last year Dameon Pierce was a steal, then he became a liability and now it looks like they want a clear upgrade.
The Giants have a number of decisions to make on their existing roster. But they'll need to make the big rock decisions about the guys who are not first.
Yea it would be great to sign Barkley for $8 million, but that’s not going to happen, so let’s deal in reality and all my posts are based off of the projected contract value that Eric keeps posting.
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In comment 16412459 ajr2456 said:
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You’re going to pay $13 million a year for a 27 year old running back in case the performance was because of the oline and the QB? Cmon man get out of the fantasy.
my question was if anyone thinks it's a better use of cap space to pay a 32 year old tight end who has missed 4x as many games as barkley the last 2 years 15m against the cap the next 2 years, including 11-13m new cash per year? for all the hot air about barkley i think that's the worse use of $ personally.
They should cut Waller too, not sure how that’s relevant to you trying to explain why signing Barkley is good
it's not - the point was nobody is as emotional about cutting waller, which is the more obvious move.
if you do move on from both of them i am curious which better players everyone has targeted to replace them.
it's not - the point was nobody is as emotional about cutting waller, which is the more obvious move.
if you do move on from both of them i am curious which better players everyone has targeted to replace them.
If the Giants dont get their QB at 6 for whatever reason, I am all for drafting Bowers in the first and a WR in the 2nd round.
Then maybe look at a Pratt, Rattler later in the 3rd. Running back? Sign one of the guys on the cheap.
Zach Moss/Trey Benson or Corum combo at RB. Gerald Everett at $8 million a year on a three year deal is probably better than Waller on his contract.
If Waller is the perennially injured part-time players he's proven to be, I'd invest the 50M in cap holds he now represents over the three years as *part* of the investment in a UFA WR.
Zach Moss/Trey Benson or Corum combo at RB. Gerald Everett at $8 million a year on a three year deal is probably better than Waller on his contract.
Yuck to Everett. But I see your point.
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I’m sure if you took a poll on Waller there’d be a good amount who want to cut him.
Zach Moss/Trey Benson or Corum combo at RB. Gerald Everett at $8 million a year on a three year deal is probably better than Waller on his contract.
Yuck to Everett. But I see your point.
The only tight end that intrigues me is Schultz but I can’t see Houston letting him walk
As for drafting a rookie, both sides are valid. People tend to make it really easy to find the gems some other teams do while dismissing our utter failure at it over the past decade, and all the other teams in the same boat. This time last year Dameon Pierce was a steal, then he became a liability and now it looks like they want a clear upgrade.
correct on both.
if barkley is willing to extend reasonably, which i view his current projection as since it's essentially a 2 year 22m deal, id rather do that than take a lesser player like swift and make him this year's miles sanders (who got essentially a 2 year 14m deal in a 13% lower cap). id definitely pay barkley as opposed to waller given the costs are comparable - even though those are 2 independent decisions of each other.
if barkley wont extend reasonably then you let him test the market. id still expect them to sign some version of a veteran RB, which will probably cost in the range of the sanders deal bc nobody is just going to hope for the best with a day 3 pick 2 months ahead of the draft. if eric gray was kyren williams the situation would be different, but he's not so they are going to have to put some money into the position to buy time to find a rookie scale replacement.
If Waller is the perennially injured part-time players he's proven to be, I'd invest the 50M in cap holds he now represents over the three years as *part* of the investment in a UFA WR.
what UFA WR do you see on the market you like? pls dont type gabe davis.
The only tight end that intrigues me is Schultz but I can’t see Houston letting him walk
Agreed. And Schultz may ask for too much as well. Thats why I am not totally against Bowers if we dont get a QB at 6.
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If Barkley is the 69 rush yards per game back he was last year, I'd take my chances on a day 2 rookie and a tier 2 UFA.
If Waller is the perennially injured part-time players he's proven to be, I'd invest the 50M in cap holds he now represents over the three years as *part* of the investment in a UFA WR.
what UFA WR do you see on the market you like? pls dont type gabe davis.
I think you have to wait and see what Ridley and Pittman get first.
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The only tight end that intrigues me is Schultz but I can’t see Houston letting him walk
Agreed. And Schultz may ask for too much as well. Thats why I am not totally against Bowers if we dont get a QB at 6.
i dont believe in throw the remote picks, but any 1st round TE is as close as i can get to that, especially top 10. the only TE in the NFL good enough to be worth a first round pick is Kelce. Maybe Andrews. so start with the fact that it is rare to get elite production from the position.
then add in the bust rate - here's the last decade of first round tight ends - at the times i wanted eifer, ebron, and howard so call it learning from experience because as it turns out over a full decade it's possible engram was the 2nd or 3rd best TE picked in the first round. he may even have an argument over hockenson.
Kyle Pitts, Atlanta Falcons
No. 4 overall, 2021
T.J. Hockenson, Detroit Lions
No. 8, 2019
Noah Fant, Denver Broncos
No. 20, 2019
Hayden Hurst, Baltimore Ravens
No. 25, 2018
O.J. Howard, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
No. 19, 2017
Evan Engram, New York Giants
No. 23, 2017
David Njoku, Cleveland Browns
No. 29, 2017
Eric Ebron, Detroit Lions
No. 10, 2014
Tyler Eifert, Cincinnati Bengals
No. 21, 2013
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In comment 16412681 christian said:
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If Barkley is the 69 rush yards per game back he was last year, I'd take my chances on a day 2 rookie and a tier 2 UFA.
If Waller is the perennially injured part-time players he's proven to be, I'd invest the 50M in cap holds he now represents over the three years as *part* of the investment in a UFA WR.
what UFA WR do you see on the market you like? pls dont type gabe davis.
I think you have to wait and see what Ridley and Pittman get first.
pittman is getting tagged or extended.
if your offering odds on barkley producing more than sanders did in 2023 in 2024 im all ears and happy to take them.
Fair.
But I am in the mindset that a Bowers and maybe Worthy/Coleman/Leggete in the second round can be very exciting for the future. We all want that big time passing game. The more weapons the better.
If Waller is the perennially injured part-time players he's proven to be, I'd invest the 50M in cap holds he now represents over the three years as *part* of the investment in a UFA WR.
what UFA WR do you see on the market you like? pls dont type gabe davis.
The WR I'd keep an eye on is Ridley, but if the UFA market spirals, then my preference would be a TE like Schultz.
More than anything, I'm way more bullish on the Giants pass catchers than most. I don't think there is a huge vacuum to fill if Waller is cut.
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if your offering odds on barkley producing more than sanders did in 2023 in 2024 im all ears and happy to take them.
Barkley may already be heading that way. Barkley’s been a 3.9 YPC back since midway through 2022. Sanders averaged 3.3 YPC last year, that’s an 140 yard difference over Barkley’s 247 carries.
The same excuses that were made for Barkley earlier in the thread (oline, QB) apply to Sanders too.
Even if the oline and QB improve, is it worth banking $22-$30 million on an oft injured RB to stay healthy and reclaim his elite production through age 27-30? Or is it a better idea to spend half that on a player who has performed, albeit on a small sample size, on some bad offensive lines in Detroit?
If Barkley and Swift were signing for the same contract, the obvious answer would be Barkley. However the price difference is going to be at least 50% if not more.
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If Barkley is the 69 rush yards per game back he was last year, I'd take my chances on a day 2 rookie and a tier 2 UFA.
If Waller is the perennially injured part-time players he's proven to be, I'd invest the 50M in cap holds he now represents over the three years as *part* of the investment in a UFA WR.
what UFA WR do you see on the market you like? pls dont type gabe davis.
The WR I'd keep an eye on is Ridley, but if the UFA market spirals, then my preference would be a TE like Schultz.
More than anything, I'm way more bullish on the Giants pass catchers than most. I don't think there is a huge vacuum to fill if Waller is cut.
Agreed. There’s no rush to immediately replace Waller, he didn’t bring much to the table last year
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If Barkley is the 69 rush yards per game back he was last year, I'd take my chances on a day 2 rookie and a tier 2 UFA.
If Waller is the perennially injured part-time players he's proven to be, I'd invest the 50M in cap holds he now represents over the three years as *part* of the investment in a UFA WR.
what UFA WR do you see on the market you like? pls dont type gabe davis.
The WR I'd keep an eye on is Ridley, but if the UFA market spirals, then my preference would be a TE like Schultz.
More than anything, I'm way more bullish on the Giants pass catchers than most. I don't think there is a huge vacuum to fill if Waller is cut.
i agree about waller. bellinger is a solid player so they have part of the answer.
ridley is ironically projected to get the same contract waller signed a few years ago (3x51m, 30m gtd). id be ok with that but id also bet the over.
I imagine 3/60 with a little more than half guaranteed is a closer target.
I tend to agree. But I think Bowers is one of the top three players in this draft. For two years, he's been catching balls and literally running away from SEC DBs like he's in the Conference USA. He runs like a gazelle.