No I wont turn in my fan card, still will root for them but man it is bleak in my eyes. And as I thought through the draft and offseason, I think JS is to blame which makes it even darker.
It starts with Jones who I like. After watching him get outplayed by Tyrod Taylor and Devito how can you have faith? Aside from his injuries, what has he shown you that he can overcome adversity vs good teams? I wanted him to take that step last year but he went in reverse and I believe his head is screwed up. I do blame Judge for him and a terrible cast but it doesn't mean he isn't broken goods.
I wanted Penix but I would have been fine with McCarthy/Nix. No way they are worse than Jones imo. But they have upside or at least Kevin O connell and Sean Payton think so. Two guys who know QBs a little bit.
The Burns trade which sounded good but I wanted Huff. Knowing the Giants could have signed Huff and Armstrong for the same money and mitigated injury risk without losing that 2nd rd pick? A 4 man rotation of Thibs/Huff/Armstrong/AO? Yes I preferred that.
And that #2 pick? holy crap they had their pick of CBs, Mckistry, Lassiter, Melton, ALL there. Or how about Jackson JOhnson? A OG/OC sound good?
Then at #47 they draft Mckinney's replacement - oh great! Let's not sign Julian Love a very good homegrown player to save money to sign Mckinney. Mckinney has a good season and is now too EXPENSIVE? So draft another S with a premium pick? How about a DT here? Or Adonai Mitchell? SO happy we still have Slayton!
The OL will dictate a bunch how this goes. Will JMS develop? Can AT stay healthy? Will Neal stop being a baby? I have little faith the Giants can fix this, its only been 10 years since they had some semblance of a good OL. Will the FAs work out? When was the last guy who did?
Nabers impact? We won how many games with OBJ? WHo in his wildest dreams Nabers hopes he can come close to.
JS better pray that that trio of McCarthy/Nix/Penix all bomb. Because if one of those guys flourishes, it shows his scouting didn't cut it again. I want some continuity but we know Mara is really a fan at heart and will fire JS if they have a bad season. Someone has to take the fall (not him).
Just wanted to get this out, I've lost faith in this FO and I think this year will be another wasted one of frustration and lost time. Damn its too early to drink.
To each their own.
It works.
As for the 2nd round pick. You do realize the Giants had a glaring hole at S right? Yes Safety is not as important financially as corner or DE, but they would have opted to re-sign McKinney if he wasn't asking for $17M. Plus who knows how much faith was lost with Schoen and Daboll when McKinney decided to go on that ATV cruise. Maybe they feel less worried about the fourth DL on the front than the defensive backfield. They are more easy to plug and play. Once cuts hit in August or September, a 3 tech will be available. A starting S won't be.
You don't know that Huff wanted to play here. If he didn't that would mean an overpay or that it was simply impossible.
Same thing. They offered Love more money than he ended up taking elsewhere.
There's a lot of talk about getting tougher in the trenches and that's exactly what NYG did. They didn't bet on rookies to do it either, they went out and got guys who have done it in the NFL. The WRs are fast and young.
I'm not happy with the QB situation either, but IMO, this roster is vastly improved from where Gettleman left it. I'm willing to give Schoen a mulligan on the DJ extension given the overall trend of the roster.
+1
a) But the scouting and draft process are getting modernized.
b) This may be the #1 team in Giants history in terms of team speed. Yeah the Giants aren't near the top of league in terms of speed, but for Giants this is a new day concept.
c) as mentioned above, Burns could really change the shape of the defense because now offensives have 3 impact players to game plan around.
Bottom line, this team is improved from the one JS & BD inherited from their predecessors.
Love was offered a contract and didn't take it, and had to take less money, and Love could not replace McKinney, he is not that level of talent
Love was offered a contract and didn't take it, and had to take less money, and Love could not replace McKinney, he is not that level of talent
sorry that should say, That is where the money from Mckinney went. So you would have to do the same in your plan
Guess what? If the Giants suck again.... life goes on.
And Devito? That Jets game was superb! And NO? And these games, they had a better offensive line and receivers than Jones had. And oh yeah, Barkley was also injured and missed how many games when Jones was starting.
I hate making excuses for Jones, but I don't care how good your QB is, your not performing well given those circumstances.
Wink Martindale is a problem - who hired him?
The weather is nice. I suggest some smallmouth fishing.
With the approach Schoen is taking, this needs to be a ready made situation for a QB in 2025.
They aren't going 5-12 or 6-11 barring a complete collapse injury wise on D or along the OL (again)
The D is going to be good. Might even be very good. The O won't be great by any means, probably won't even be good but I think it can play well enough to win games.
7-10 wins. As long as Andrew Thomas plays in most games (gonna be greedy and ask for all of them) we're gonna be fine up front. Enjoy the season. Try to. Fucking get Daniel Jones out of your head.
I don't agree with some of this stuff but I do agree this is the least excited I have been going into a season in a long time.
Freshen up your resume and start submitting them to NFL teams to be their next GM, because obviously you know what players to draft and not to draft, what players to sign and not sign and on and on.
Nothing better than a fan who thinks they have all of the answers without all of the information and can't get excited because they didn't do what they wanted. You must be disappointed a lot in life.
Not happy about the positions they drafted is flawed logic. You want players. Not positions. They got 2 guys in rounds 1-2 that were the highest rated at their positions. They also filled needs. If I had a dollar for every time fans went nuts about the Giants drafting the wrong position only to see those same fans conveniently forget that anger once the rookies get on the field...
The roster is younger and better than 2022. I love watching teams like this come together. I think it can be a fun year.
You win with star power. Giants finally have some on D. The O is still a work in progress but there are WRs here now that we can build around. And we have the left tackle. Important pieces are in place.
There are definitely growing pains to come, but think about it, this team is really only three draft classes deep right now. A significant core of their draft classes (particularly the first two since we just had draft #3) look like their are many more keepers than not in my eyes. I think JS/BD will really need five drafts for a proper valuation -- especially since it really takes three years to assess a draft class. That will show the meat and potatoes of whether this FO has done it's job.
Think about the stars that developed on the Giants like Tuck, Strahan and CWebb. Even Coughlin's Oline didn't really set until three + years of play and roster tinkering.
So for my money this team is a Work in Progress with some exciting parts that have been and continue to grow. I need to watch their development and how things progress. There will be some interesting pieces to watch this season and going forward for those reasons. And it will be interesting to see how the new coaches meld and if noticeable change is going to happen because of them.
One thing I do like about Daboll in particular is that he got those boys out there to play - even in the midst of a miserable season last year and a ton of cluster-fucks.
SO as concerned as I am about the roster holes on this team - I am also excited about the talent that is starting to assemble under this regime and I look forward to seeing how that plays out. I do think JS has assembled a good team for the FO and that they are very professional with a good set of critical eyes, so I am not ready to throw them under the bus yet.
They didn’t like the QBs, at some point you need to move on. Jones, who you said in your OP that you liked, is our 2024 QB and he’s either going to revert to 2022 or continue his poor 2023 play. You’ll just have to wait until September to find out.
As for the QBs we passed on, different situations play a big factor especially for imperfect prospects. Unless one of them becomes an all pro I won’t feel like Schoen failed.
I think the O.P. was referring to that first 2nd rounder that we traded for Burns.
Is it unfair to ask JS and staff to scout/prepare/execute a plan to do this? To find the guy? What do they get paid for?
I think a modest improvement to last season's 6 win season is reasonable to expect. I think we'll be very competitive in the following season.
Joe Schoen isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
The likelihood that Penix, Nix, and McCarthy are all better than DJ is near zero. Much more likely that they are all worse. Most likely outcome one is a little or a lot better one is a total bust and one somewhere in the middle. But our management clearly thought none of the three was a good bet to be a lot better than DJ. Or Drew Lock if you prefer.
Offensively there are a lot more question marks. But that’s always going to be the case when you have a lot of young developing players like Neal, JMS, Nabers, Robinson, Hyatt, Bellinger. I know many are pissed about the QB situation, but there will be more drafts.
The key for this year in my opinion is to develop this young talent and pray everyone stays healthy. A 7 or 8 win season where we are competing in every contest and where we see nice improvement in the young players would actually be a relatively successful result at this stage of the teams rebuild.
Next offseason, get your QB and start pushing for relevancy again.
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but getting deeper out to sea.
They didn’t like the QBs, at some point you need to move on. Jones, who you said in your OP that you liked, is our 2024 QB and he’s either going to revert to 2022 or continue his poor 2023 play. You’ll just have to wait until September to find out.
As for the QBs we passed on, different situations play a big factor especially for imperfect prospects. Unless one of them becomes an all pro I won’t feel like Schoen failed.
Big fan of Jones, rooted hard for him, I still will. But I think he's broken in the head. And he's not even to blame for it, he's been demolished by poor coaching/bad OL. I thought he needed a fresh start somewhere else tbh.
I'm not sold as I've said ad nauseum on Jones going forward (and I'm not going to post anymore in the Jones bait threads by either side) and I think we have a new QB in here in next 2 years, but for now, he can "win some games" if held upright and stays healthy and throws down the field more.
I think the defense might end up being a bit more the work in progress than people think. Lot of new talent in key spots and some figuring out to do there with how secondary gets used.
But the front 7 looks very intriguing.
detroit isn't trading aidan hutchinson for huff/armstrong, and if burns plays to his best level he can be that good as well. he is a better player than thibs by a good margin (who is a better player than those guys by a good margin).
an extra 2nd would have been great, but in your scenario it would have also come at the expense of the likely 4th round comp pick for mckinney. so not entirely free. is a melton so different from phillips? maybe, maybe not (jeremiah had melton 46, phillips 51 in his final ranks). if we consider them comparable then the net result ends up whoever was available at #70 to whoever they take at pick #96 or so next year.
so the majority of your non-qb gripes are just swapping different names but seemingly addressing the same positions with similar resources.
the QB as usual is the main difference. I wont look to change your mind on that, though as someone who was a JJM fan the vikings (and nobody else) being willing to move up for maye but not jjm helped clarify for me that there was a clear top 3 he wasnt in. i think i was a bigger fan of jjm's talent than most and i think he was a better prospect coming out than jones, but i also think there is a fair baseline comparison for both to Alex Smith (along with a hope for upside beyond that). this staff chose the devil they knew, and while i may have still picked JJM instead right now it's a coin flip how that decision plays out in 2024 since rookie qbs are far from sure things.
and while i agree expecting nabers to be obj or chase right away may be too much, there is no reason to believe he cant be like devonta, waddle, lamb and instantly change this offense.
I have no interest in watching another season of Daniel Jones.
I’m not sure things could have gone worse last year, yet they ended up with 6 wins.
1. They actually have weapons in the passing game now. Not just a 31 year old TE who plays 6 games a year, Hodgins, and Parris Campbell. Nabers will potentially change the dynamic of this offense.
2. Bobby Johnson is gone. JMS will improve. Thomas hopefully won’t miss half of the year. Runyan and Eluemunor are upgrades, esp in pass pro. And there’s even a glimmer of hope for Neal with new coaching.
3. The defense was good last year. Adds a bonafide stud pass rusher in Burns. Banks in year 2. Kayvon coming off a breakout year. Pretty much everyone else is back, besides A’Shawn & McKinney (who I feel has a pro ready replacement in Nubin).
This team can absolutely make the playoffs. The 180 people have taken on Jones is insane when you consider it was only 4.5 games behind historically bad pass protection and with Barkley injured for most of it.
Should there be concern, yes, but the focus should be on the guys that this regime drafted and they need to step up
Thibs
Neal ?
Banks
Robinson
JMS ?
Nabers ?
Nubin ?
All GMs make misses in the draft and/or need to fill holes properly:
Burns?
Runyan?
Eluemunor?
Singletary?
Okereke
Need to hit on some day 3 draft picks to make Significant contributions:
Bellinger
Belton
McFadden
Hyatt
Dru Phillips?
Theo Johnson?
Tyrone Tracy?
I have no idea if his plan is going to work, but I can at least see the plan.
The roster that JS got needed to be completely overturned, I would be a little more exited to see how this looks this year.
The wildly held perception of Jones here has gotten wacky. Teams have won with less. The Giants won with him in 2022. He's probably not THE guy, fine, he's still a guy with a winning season UNDER THIS REGIME, not more than 2 seasons ago. If it happened once it can happen again yet for some here its as if 2022 literally never happened and we have people here actually bemoaning that season even occurred. So that's cool.
You have a far inflated sense of your own judgement. JS may have made bad moves or he may have made great moves. But your feelings have nothing to do with it. That’s a personal thing.
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It sounds like if ONE of them turns out to be a star, you'll be furious that we blew it. Perhaps it's worth noting that (1) there's no way of knowing which one will be the star, and (2) via NFL rules we can't pick all three of them at once.
Is it unfair to ask JS and staff to scout/prepare/execute a plan to do this? To find the guy? What do they get paid for?
The giants did extensive work on all of the quarterbacks. By most accounts they liked Maye. They couldn't get him. They might have liked Williams and Daniel. They weren't an option. They didn't like the other quarterbacks enough to take at 6.
Their job isn't to take a quarterback to make you happy. Their job is to get it right. Certainly I am sure they had concerns with penix and his injury history, but your answer is to draft him anyway.
Your answer is Mccarthy or Nix, but you have no idea what their evaluations told them, and they did a lot more extensive research than you did, but your answer is draft them anyway.
Should the giants have drafted Rosen? How about Zach Wilson? Mac Jones?
You can't find the guy if he doesn't exist and the last thing the giants don't want to do is waste a premium draft on a player they have to convince themselves that he might be good.
I have no interest in watching another season of Daniel Jones.
Good, then stay away from BBI so we dont have to read your drivel about him.
You have a far inflated sense of your own judgement. JS may have made bad moves or he may have made great moves. But your feelings have nothing to do with it. That’s a personal thing.
I'm just a fan. But this organization has not given me a lot to have faith in. What I watch on screen every week at this point, not sure how you can justify it.
What hole at LB?
Corner is something to keep an eye on, or maybe not. They spent a day 2 pick on Flott to develop and play. They brought back McCloud and he's making $3M. Do you really want Adoree back? His effort vs the Rams was Eli Apple like. Maybe Stephon Gilmore or Steven Nelson, but do they want to join?
The Chiefs more than likely knew to a man that Alex Smith wasn't THE guy that could transcend the game. Same with the Niners. He wasn't going to elevate average to great. He wasn't going to carry teams to conference titles but he was better than anyone else within reach, both vets and draft picks until the right QB came along and then those GMs could pounce.
We have a QB that struggles if things aren't totally right. Struggles to beat the best even when things are right. That's life. There are worse places to be. What's worse? Drafting and hitching your wagon to Sam Darnold or Wilson for the next 3-4 years.
The roster is improving. Wanna debate whether the wins follow if the roster takes a step forward this season, Jones at QB or not? Please let's bet I could use some money.
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In comment 16511383 CT Charlie said:
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It sounds like if ONE of them turns out to be a star, you'll be furious that we blew it. Perhaps it's worth noting that (1) there's no way of knowing which one will be the star, and (2) via NFL rules we can't pick all three of them at once.
Is it unfair to ask JS and staff to scout/prepare/execute a plan to do this? To find the guy? What do they get paid for?
The giants did extensive work on all of the quarterbacks. By most accounts they liked Maye. They couldn't get him. They might have liked Williams and Daniel. They weren't an option. They didn't like the other quarterbacks enough to take at 6.
Their job isn't to take a quarterback to make you happy. Their job is to get it right. Certainly I am sure they had concerns with penix and his injury history, but your answer is to draft him anyway.
Your answer is Mccarthy or Nix, but you have no idea what their evaluations told them, and they did a lot more extensive research than you did, but your answer is draft them anyway.
Should the giants have drafted Rosen? How about Zach Wilson? Mac Jones?
You can't find the guy if he doesn't exist and the last thing the giants don't want to do is waste a premium draft on a player they have to convince themselves that he might be good.
These are all valid but do I put more faith in the opinions of guys like Sean Payton? Kevin O Connell? Why does JS get more cred then them?
These are all valid but do I put more faith in the opinions of guys like Sean Payton? Kevin O Connell? Why does JS get more cred then them?
kevin oconnell was willing to trade 3 firsts to move up for drake maye, yet only willing to trade 1 fourth to move up 1 spot for jjm.
sean payton had bo nix above jjm so he wasnt willing to trade a 3rd to leapfrog oconnell/min.
That said, the season bottomed out in an almost nightmare fashion last year, before it ever began. To think this team lost Thomas, Waller & Barkley right out of the gate is unbelievable.
They’ll either look cohesive like in 22 or a complete mess again - we’ll see.
Every time you draft a QB in rounds 1-2-3 you just missed on a player that likely helps your roster. You may have missed on a player that helps the team forge an identity and yes, NON QBs can do that too.
Drafting a QB comes with a price. Teams are ultra picky and choosey for a reason. Giants didn't want to pass on their #1-2 WR for their #4-5 QB. Can't blame them. Last I heard QBs are not an endangered species. They keep coming out of college year after year. Keep building the team.
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These are all valid but do I put more faith in the opinions of guys like Sean Payton? Kevin O Connell? Why does JS get more cred then them?
kevin oconnell was willing to trade 3 firsts to move up for drake maye, yet only willing to trade 1 fourth to move up 1 spot for jjm.
sean payton had bo nix above jjm so he wasnt willing to trade a 3rd to leapfrog oconnell/min.
I just mean these guys are staking their jobs on Nix/JJM. What do they like about them? That's all, forget what I like, do these guys know QBs? What gives you confidence that JS can pick the right guy?
We hold our guys to a championship level yet we’re talking up KOC? Cmon now. He’s in the same boat.
Fool's hope!
That said, the season bottomed out in an almost nightmare fashion last year, before it ever began. To think this team lost Thomas, Waller & Barkley right out of the gate is unbelievable.
This is where Im at. Every year I get pumped for the draft, for FA, this year is a bit different.
They’ll either look cohesive like in 22 or a complete mess again - we’ll see.
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In comment 16511396 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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In comment 16511383 CT Charlie said:
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It sounds like if ONE of them turns out to be a star, you'll be furious that we blew it. Perhaps it's worth noting that (1) there's no way of knowing which one will be the star, and (2) via NFL rules we can't pick all three of them at once.
Is it unfair to ask JS and staff to scout/prepare/execute a plan to do this? To find the guy? What do they get paid for?
The giants did extensive work on all of the quarterbacks. By most accounts they liked Maye. They couldn't get him. They might have liked Williams and Daniel. They weren't an option. They didn't like the other quarterbacks enough to take at 6.
Their job isn't to take a quarterback to make you happy. Their job is to get it right. Certainly I am sure they had concerns with penix and his injury history, but your answer is to draft him anyway.
Your answer is Mccarthy or Nix, but you have no idea what their evaluations told them, and they did a lot more extensive research than you did, but your answer is draft them anyway.
Should the giants have drafted Rosen? How about Zach Wilson? Mac Jones?
You can't find the guy if he doesn't exist and the last thing the giants don't want to do is waste a premium draft on a player they have to convince themselves that he might be good.
These are all valid but do I put more faith in the opinions of guys like Sean Payton? Kevin O Connell? Why does JS get more cred then them?
Why do we even need to have that debate? Payton may be right. He's got the track record. Let him get his QB. If his guy plays well that doesn't necessarily mean he was the right fit here with the Giants.
We're going to hang on every friggin pass from these rookies and lose our shit every time one of them throws a nice seam pass. Just because Nix had 280 yards in a 28-20 win doesn't mean he fixes all our issues here. It sure as fuck doesn't mean he's leading NYG to the promised land anytime soon but of course we know BBI will project the most amazing grass is greener type QB play here if that happens.
BUILD a fucking roster with star power. We will find the QB.
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So you lost faith. If he had made the moves you wanted him to you would be excited. I get it.
You have a far inflated sense of your own judgement. JS may have made bad moves or he may have made great moves. But your feelings have nothing to do with it. That’s a personal thing.
I'm just a fan. But this organization has not given me a lot to have faith in. What I watch on screen every week at this point, not sure how you can justify it.
They had one good year and one bad year. And it’s not like the rails were falling off last last time we saw them play. They beat Philly to end the season. No one know if they will be good or bad, but that’s where they are.
Kate Adie is a famous BBC foreign correspondent (or journalist).
"The intrepid BBC reporter, Kate Adie was brought up in Sunderland. Miss Adie was present at the storming of the Iranian Embassy, the invasion of Iraq, the bombing of Tripoli and three Turkish earthquakes. When she returned to Sunderland to launch a ship, the crew shot an albatross for luck."
Hope this cheers someone up.
If NYG are awful this year, I can live with it because I know they'll get higher draft picks to use in continuing the rebuild. If they are competitive, maybe even return to the playoffs, that's OK too because it means our players are playing better and success generally breeds more success (plus I'll have some fun Sundays). But I'm looking forward to the season either way.
Dynamite reading comprehension by you.
Schoen is not without fault since he got here, but the roster was historically awful. This is a critical year for him and Daboll, but I do not believe they are on the hot seat yet.
SIX QBs just got drafted in the top-12 of the draft. Maybe this year wasn't the time to pull this one out of your notebook of cliches.
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In comment 16511422 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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These are all valid but do I put more faith in the opinions of guys like Sean Payton? Kevin O Connell? Why does JS get more cred then them?
kevin oconnell was willing to trade 3 firsts to move up for drake maye, yet only willing to trade 1 fourth to move up 1 spot for jjm.
sean payton had bo nix above jjm so he wasnt willing to trade a 3rd to leapfrog oconnell/min.
I just mean these guys are staking their jobs on Nix/JJM. What do they like about them? That's all, forget what I like, do these guys know QBs? What gives you confidence that JS can pick the right guy?
So by your logic, what confidence can you have for schoen and daboll if they drafted one of the quarterbacks? What confidence would you have if the quarterback they drafted busted? Are you gonna ok it because sean payton liked him?
Sean Payton for all of his knowledge of offense does not have a resume of drafting quarterbacks and developing them. He spent most of his career with Drew Brees as his quarterback and he was already showing promise. Let's see what happens in Denver.
Schoen, Cowden, Brown, Daboll and Kafka have all been a part of organizations that have scouted, drafted and coached first round quarterbacks.
Until they draft a quarterback and we see how they develop, there is going to be a question.
Last season, Wan’dale was coming back from injury, Shep was a ghost, Hyatt was a rookie and Waller was cooked.
What QB could succeed with that talent? If we drafted JJ, Nix or Penix at 6. How could they be successful on this team? It would be a wasted year until we draft a wr next year.
As much as I hate taking a WR that high in the draft, long term it makes sense. Nabers will be a top 5 wr in this league. Let’s not pretend that DJ is a scrub. yes, he is not an QB that makes WR better like Eli, but I think he can be Andy Dalton esc when he had AJ Green, or any other mediocre QB’s Arizona trotted out over the years when Fitz was playing. Either way, lets see what DJ does for the 6-10 games he is healthy this year. If he balls out, fine, he’s on contract. If not look elsewhere next season. At least now he has weapons, maybe an o-line too.
To win Super Bowl: +10000 (only DEN, TEN, NE, CAR are worse)
To win division: +1000 (last of the four teams)
To make playoffs: Yes(+425) No(-650)
Vegas thinks this is one of the worst teams in the NFL. To be in that position entering year 3 of this program tells you all you need to know.
WTF are you talking about? ALL of those guys were taken before the Giants picked Nubin. I get not being excited about the season running it back with Jones at QB, but you don't seem to have any clue about what actually transpired this offseason. At least maybe get your facts straight before getting up in arms?
Gentlemen, that is the (sports) definition of sucking.
Schoen is not without fault since he got here, but the roster was historically awful. This is a critical year for him and Daboll, but I do not believe they are on the hot seat yet.
This this what be fair to look at. I think everyone forgets how many huge misses prior GMs (that won SuperBowls) made. It took years for them to build championship rosters.
JS in year one didnt even have his full staff of scouts in place. We are only a little over 2 years into the new management. Im not sure what people are expecting. I understand the Giants have been terrible for way too long, but you cant put most of those years on this regime.
JS is not on the hot seat unless there is some ridiculous debacle. JS asked for patience and I think he is correct with that request.
Chiefs GM = 11 years, and they were 4 years into their rebuild when they got Mahomes
Eagles GM = 14 years, they were already a playoff team when he took over
Rams GM = 12 years, 5 years before they were a playoff team
49ers GM = 7 years, 3 years to be good (nice) but that team was also not far removed from the Harbough Roster and it was the coaching change that was the biggest difference maker
To win Super Bowl: +10000 (only DEN, TEN, NE, CAR are worse)
To win division: +1000 (last of the four teams)
To make playoffs: Yes(+425) No(-650)
Vegas thinks this is one of the worst teams in the NFL. To be in that position entering year 3 of this program tells you all you need to know.
Right, because vegas is the predictor of what teams will or won't do. Here is a little fyi for you. Vegas sets the over / under to get action on both sides. People will be betting the giants under and some will be betting the over.
They look for the number to get most action both ways. Not wat they actually think or know, but hey keep touting that line.
To win Super Bowl: +10000 (only DEN, TEN, NE, CAR are worse)
To win division: +1000 (last of the four teams)
To make playoffs: Yes(+425) No(-650)
Vegas thinks this is one of the worst teams in the NFL. To be in that position entering year 3 of this program tells you all you need to know.
Good take another hiatus instead of reposting the same shit multiple times a day in multiple threads. Find a hobby.
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Not there by the time we picked Nubin
Dynamite reading comprehension by you.
F-off
To win Super Bowl: +10000 (only DEN, TEN, NE, CAR are worse)
To win division: +1000 (last of the four teams)
To make playoffs: Yes(+425) No(-650)
Vegas thinks this is one of the worst teams in the NFL. To be in that position entering year 3 of this program tells you all you need to know.
Who the hell cares. The NY Rangers are dogs against Carolina. The Knicks were dogs against the Sixers.
The 2007 Giants weren't supposed to even make the playoffs. Neither were the 1984 Giants.
You won't know a good young team until they start winning. No one saw the 1984 Giants coming. Few saw the 2005 Giants coming. No one saw the 1997 or 2000 Giants coming. Who had the 2016 Dallas Cowboys going 13-3? Stop already. Vegas does what it does. DOesn't mean shit.
There are those who spread gloom and doom.
The Eagles look like a reloaded team....but their total collapse last year is a concern that is hard to overlook.
Dallas resting on laurels usually do not work
Commanders have more moving parts than an expansion team....it will take time.
Sure....questions at QB linger as well as OL...defense is rounding into form. Offense needs some help.but this Team is better than the 2022 playoff team
Lighten up Francis
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In comment 16511422 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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These are all valid but do I put more faith in the opinions of guys like Sean Payton? Kevin O Connell? Why does JS get more cred then them?
kevin oconnell was willing to trade 3 firsts to move up for drake maye, yet only willing to trade 1 fourth to move up 1 spot for jjm.
sean payton had bo nix above jjm so he wasnt willing to trade a 3rd to leapfrog oconnell/min.
I just mean these guys are staking their jobs on Nix/JJM. What do they like about them? That's all, forget what I like, do these guys know QBs? What gives you confidence that JS can pick the right guy?
I don't think it's just JS, I think it's JS and Daboll, and they were 2 big voices in Josh Allen's pick + development. Daboll probably the biggest voice in that.
I dont think oconnell or payton are as all in on JJM/Nix. Payton has a $100m contract, he can do whatever he want, he dumped Wilson on the side of the road and ate more dead money than any player in history before he even worked Nix out.
O'connell and the Vikings tried to extend cousins, then opted to let him go. They took the QB that fell to them more or less. And they signed Darnold.
I think you are misreading what those teams did as huge endorsements of JJM. If MIN beat NYG trading up to #4 or #5 and given up 2+ firsts for JJM, I'd feel differently.
Nix I liked but no issue passing on him, hes only like a couple years younger than jones + lock.
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In comment 16511424 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16511422 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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These are all valid but do I put more faith in the opinions of guys like Sean Payton? Kevin O Connell? Why does JS get more cred then them?
kevin oconnell was willing to trade 3 firsts to move up for drake maye, yet only willing to trade 1 fourth to move up 1 spot for jjm.
sean payton had bo nix above jjm so he wasnt willing to trade a 3rd to leapfrog oconnell/min.
I just mean these guys are staking their jobs on Nix/JJM. What do they like about them? That's all, forget what I like, do these guys know QBs? What gives you confidence that JS can pick the right guy?
I don't think it's just JS, I think it's JS and Daboll, and they were 2 big voices in Josh Allen's pick + development. Daboll probably the biggest voice in that.
I dont think oconnell or payton are as all in on JJM/Nix. Payton has a $100m contract, he can do whatever he want, he dumped Wilson on the side of the road and ate more dead money than any player in history before he even worked Nix out.
O'connell and the Vikings tried to extend cousins, then opted to let him go. They took the QB that fell to them more or less. And they signed Darnold.
I think you are misreading what those teams did as huge endorsements of JJM. If MIN beat NYG trading up to #4 or #5 and given up 2+ firsts for JJM, I'd feel differently.
Nix I liked but no issue passing on him, hes only like a couple years younger than jones + lock.
i think you are definitely wrong about the Vikings. They tried to extend Cousins, but not aggressively, and one reason he jumped to the Falcons is because they would not assure him they wouldn't draft a QB. Both KOC and Payton are QB whisperers who have great latitude to select their QBs.
It appears the Giants might be making great the enemy of good. Penix, Nix an d JJM are possible significant upgrades to Jones. And an upgrade from Jones to a good QB is the biggest improvement this team can make.
Are we talking about OL? Because in my world the basics entail OL.
They addressed the OL. Well see how it plays out.
In 23, Schoen had more wiggle room, tried improving the team, and the season was a shit show.
Until shown otherwise, this team is not moving in the right direction,or at least not very fast. The ceiling for the next couple years seems to be mediocrity, which can get them to the playoffs, but not much more.
Daboll is first on the hot seat, as the HC usually takes the fall. It scares the shit out of me how unprepared the team was to start last season, and that's firmly on Dabs. Schoen makes it through his first contract. A second depends on how patient Mara is willing to be. Another shit show this year sees Dabs gone, and JS on the hot seat. I'm expecting less of a shit show. Good fortune sees W-L north of .500. Bad bounces leaves us south.
I don't think JS is in the running for Executive of the year, but I don't think he's dog meat, either.
To win Super Bowl: +10000 (only DEN, TEN, NE, CAR are worse)
To win division: +1000 (last of the four teams)
To make playoffs: Yes(+425) No(-650)
Vegas thinks this is one of the worst teams in the NFL. To be in that position entering year 3 of this program tells you all you need to know.
Vegas has 13 teams at 7.5 or lower.
another 6 are at 8.5.
so more than half the league (19 teams) are in the mushy middle expected to be within a couple games of each other with o/u at or below .500.
Maybe we are building picks for Arch!
Superstars at other positions are worth less than 2 points a game. An upgrade from a bad QB to a good QB is worth around 5 to 7 points a game. Nabers is a great WR, but with bad QB play, all you are doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Superstars at other positions are worth less than 2 points a game. An upgrade from a bad QB to a good QB is worth around 5 to 7 points a game.
And what is your source for this?
Looking at Jones career here, there was optimism regarding his play generally entering year 2020, 2021 & 2023. The comp would be 2022, but with a new regime and no worthy lottery QBs in the 2022 draft, fans were fine with it,
Even in 2018, there was curiosity how a Manning-Barkley-Beckham offense would perform.
This year? We are just waiting until what the 2025 QB crop looks like.
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Superstars at other positions are worth less than 2 points a game. An upgrade from a bad QB to a good QB is worth around 5 to 7 points a game.
And what is your source for this?
This is pretty widely known and discussed. You can find variations of the argument in positional value discussions and WAR discussions. The point differential is a Vegas metric. You can google positional points against the spread (ATS). A lot of the research and discussion is older, so you can conclude that the difference between QB and other positions is even more pronounced than when these discussions were created.
Here is one such Vegas discussion
https://www.boydsbets.com/nfl-player-values-against-the-point-spread/
I think he is low on elite QBs than the present understanding.
And there was an academic paper about this subject:
https://www.uwlax.edu/globalassets/centersprograms/menard/nfl-players-value.pdf
But you can google yourself and maybe find more up to date pieces.
Whatever…
FYI - they viewed Nabers as a special, special talent, who can transform an entire position group and the offense.
They didn’t feel QBs 4-6 were worth a #1 pick. It wasn’t an indiscriminate choice.
Superstars at other positions are worth less than 2 points a game. An upgrade from a bad QB to a good QB is worth around 5 to 7 points a game. Nabers is a great WR, but with bad QB play, all you are doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Stop blaming it all on the boogyman.
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... backup level QB play. And Mara has essentially forced his coaches to make it work with well below league average signal callers. It's so fucking obvious everyone knows it, the whole league knows it. The only folks who seem clueless about it are Giants ownership and a hardcore segment of fans on this board.
Superstars at other positions are worth less than 2 points a game. An upgrade from a bad QB to a good QB is worth around 5 to 7 points a game. Nabers is a great WR, but with bad QB play, all you are doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Stop blaming it all on the boogyman.
There is data that tells you how poor Daniel Jones is. And there is data that quantifies how many points per game you are sacrificing with poor QB play. And the Giants have failed to field a proper starting QB since 2017. And what has their record been though this period? And you are calling it a bogeyman.
Just tell me you don't believe in math and science when we start the conversation, so I can tune out your end of it.
The Giants have consistently eschewed an analytical approach, and their maneuvers at QB are especially egregious. They have been behind the 8-ball mathematically for the last 7 years - and they have been predictably awful during the period - entirely predictable.
but yea --- bogeyman.
There are definitely growing pains to come, but think about it, this team is really only three draft classes deep right now. A significant core of their draft classes (particularly the first two since we just had draft #3) look like their are many more keepers than not in my eyes. I think JS/BD will really need five drafts for a proper valuation -- especially since it really takes three years to assess a draft class. That will show the meat and potatoes of whether this FO has done it's job.
Think about the stars that developed on the Giants like Tuck, Strahan and CWebb. Even Coughlin's Oline didn't really set until three + years of play and roster tinkering.
So for my money this team is a Work in Progress with some exciting parts that have been and continue to grow. I need to watch their development and how things progress. There will be some interesting pieces to watch this season and going forward for those reasons. And it will be interesting to see how the new coaches meld and if noticeable change is going to happen because of them.
One thing I do like about Daboll in particular is that he got those boys out there to play - even in the midst of a miserable season last year and a ton of cluster-fucks.
SO as concerned as I am about the roster holes on this team - I am also excited about the talent that is starting to assemble under this regime and I look forward to seeing how that plays out. I do think JS has assembled a good team for the FO and that they are very professional with a good set of critical eyes, so I am not ready to throw them under the bus yet.
Great post.
I'll add that anybody who questions whether or not this team is heading in the right direction with JS and BD needs to go back and watch the shit show that was the 2021 Giants, then re-watch the 2022 Giants.
Yes, 2023 was a very weird year with a bad record. Ironically, they could have been 9-8 instead of 6-11 if 3-4 plays or calls go their way. This is todays NFL.
I love the Burns trade. I know a Carolina fan and he cannot believe that we got him for a 2nd round pick. Our front is gonna be very good.
I wanted a new QB this draft but I respect JS not overpaying for Maye and will trust he felt Nabers was far better than McCarthy at 6.
One last thing. You spend your money and high picks on Pass Rushers and WR's in todays NFL, not FS and RB.
The Giants believe in positional value, traded for Burns and drafted Nabers and let McKinney and Barkley get overpaid by other teams. The shift to modern asset allocation is in motion.
The point I'm making is you don't know anything. Nobody does. We can probably assume we're not competing for a super bowl but everything beyond that is on the table. I suspect this team wasn't as bad as it looked last year just like it wasn't as good as it did the year before. We're in limbo at QB with and incumbent coaching staff, that's where you feel the lack of juice. I think a healthy perspective going into this season is to hope that players from Schoen's draft classes show development. If that happens, you'll find reason for optimism as the table could be set to drop a QB in. If it doesn't, then we will be discussing whether or not to move on come winter. That's where it should be interesting as a fan.
JS isn't going anywhere and the Giants are going to be competitive this year....
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In comment 16511570 Darwinian said:
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... backup level QB play. And Mara has essentially forced his coaches to make it work with well below league average signal callers. It's so fucking obvious everyone knows it, the whole league knows it. The only folks who seem clueless about it are Giants ownership and a hardcore segment of fans on this board.
Superstars at other positions are worth less than 2 points a game. An upgrade from a bad QB to a good QB is worth around 5 to 7 points a game. Nabers is a great WR, but with bad QB play, all you are doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Stop blaming it all on the boogyman.
There is data that tells you how poor Daniel Jones is. And there is data that quantifies how many points per game you are sacrificing with poor QB play. And the Giants have failed to field a proper starting QB since 2017. And what has their record been though this period? And you are calling it a bogeyman.
Just tell me you don't believe in math and science when we start the conversation, so I can tune out your end of it.
The Giants have consistently eschewed an analytical approach, and their maneuvers at QB are especially egregious. They have been behind the 8-ball mathematically for the last 7 years - and they have been predictably awful during the period - entirely predictable.
but yea --- bogeyman.
Giants have one of the deeper analytical groups in the NFL. Not really my point though. Giants have sucked, again, not the point.
POint is you're blaming the DJ QB thing on Mara. Nope. IT aint mara. Schoen and Daboll liked what he did in 22 and signed him off that year. Deal with it. You don't have to like it but using Mara as a scapegoat is weak.
They aren't paying attention to how this team operates. They aren't firing Schoen simply because of one bad year that followed a very good year.
Reminder, this team has a better won/loss record over the last 2 years than any other 2 year span since 2012. Low bar yes, but don't ignore what they did in 22. 23 was bad shouldn't erase 2022. And it doesn't have to mean that 2024 will be awful either.
You asked a question. I took the time to answer it, with some citations including an academic take on the subject. I was nice to you. I took some time with it. I shouldn't have bothered. You weren't interested in anything resembling a civilized discourse. What, you don't think my time is valuable? You're an arrogant prick who is trolling people up and down this and other threads.
But you are also a poster child of the Dunning-Kruger effect. You haven't a clue what you are reading and you know just enough to arrogantly flout your ignorance with dopey, ignorant assertions.
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I got two articles on betting. So basically more BS from a dupe.
You asked a question. I took the time to answer it, with some citations including an academic take on the subject. I was nice to you. I took some time with it. I shouldn't have bothered. You weren't interested in anything resembling a civilized discourse. What, you don't think my time is valuable? You're an arrogant prick who is trolling people up and down this and other threads.
But you are also a poster child of the Dunning-Kruger effect. You haven't a clue what you are reading and you know just enough to arrogantly flout your ignorance with dopey, ignorant assertions.
Are you the PRODUCER of MANHATTAN?
You have been the worst poster in this site for awhile and on another site. No one cares what you have to say.
Of course the overreactions are unbearable. But I find it to be just a few posters who have nothing better to do to convince people how smart they are. They don’t wanna talk about football. Even if they claim they do.
It's been every year since I've joined
"This is our year!"
*Giants suck*
"Well...next year will be our year!"
*Off-season, rinse, repeat*
I disagree with you regarding the draft.
They tried to get their guy but the Patriots in the end did not agree to the trade. They tried.
So instead they got the #1 WR in the draft and the #1 safety. That is two of the top 22 starting positions going to the Giants. I think that is a positive.
Next, they may actually have also drafted the best tight end for this team. He is the biggest guy and is the best blocker of the group. An old school TE and not a WR with an extra 20 lbs.
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In comment 16511751 JT039 said:
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I got two articles on betting. So basically more BS from a dupe.
You asked a question. I took the time to answer it, with some citations including an academic take on the subject. I was nice to you. I took some time with it. I shouldn't have bothered. You weren't interested in anything resembling a civilized discourse. What, you don't think my time is valuable? You're an arrogant prick who is trolling people up and down this and other threads.
But you are also a poster child of the Dunning-Kruger effect. You haven't a clue what you are reading and you know just enough to arrogantly flout your ignorance with dopey, ignorant assertions.
Are you the PRODUCER of MANHATTAN?
You have been the worst poster in this site for awhile and on another site. No one cares what you have to say.
Ok, dep.
I suppose it's that time of year when lots of fans deceive themselves. Reality will hit after 1 or 2 games that look exactly like the vast majority of games from the last 5 years.
It's a sad state of affairs. We are on the path to being a team like the Saints or Raiders with an upside of the Steelers. You'd think Giants fans would want more.
I suppose it's that time of year when lots of fans deceive themselves. Reality will hit after 1 or 2 games that look exactly like the vast majority of games from the last 5 years.
It's a sad state of affairs. We are on the path to being a team like the Saints or Raiders with an upside of the Steelers. You'd think Giants fans would want more.
💯
This is the high point of the roller coaster; the best part of the Giants' calendar year. People are getting excited over Nabers signing his contract and catching a crossing route in a walk through.
I remember when Toney was going to team with Barkley to make this team a YAC monster. This year feels like that.
I suppose it's that time of year when lots of fans deceive themselves. Reality will hit after 1 or 2 games that look exactly like the vast majority of games from the last 5 years.
It's a sad state of affairs. We are on the path to being a team like the Saints or Raiders with an upside of the Steelers. You'd think Giants fans would want more.
Well said. I feel the same. Settling for mediocrity instead of searching for answers and a fan base that can't tell the difference.
More nonsense being spewed.
Even though there's a couple of things that happened, that I thought were unfortunate - the loss of Saquon (the hated Eagles sure jumped all over that); not drafting Brock Bowers (who I think will be ALL PRO as a rookie).
I've always been against drafting a QB - screwing up twice, EXCEPT if you really believe on that ONE guy. They gave it their best shot going after Maye, it didn't work out so they went after who they thought was the BPA, can't get mad about that.
Good stuff's happened -
Draft-wise, it's like we scored two #1s with the trade for Burns & draft pick Nabers.
Besides Nabers, the draft picks that I very much looking forward to seeing are safety Tyler Nubin and TE Theo Johnson
Two new coaches - Even though I like Wink's balls-to-the-wall approach, we just don't have the horses. Shane Bowen style is a better fit and will deliver more wins. What I like about Carmen Bricillo, the new Offensive Line Coordinator is that he learned and worked with THE Master O-line coach Dante Scarnecchia at New England. I think we'll see improvement very quickly.
Overall this team is just as good (or better) than the team who snuck-up on the NFL to record nine wins, Daboll, is still a good coach. The Sky's not falling.
From a business POV, it makes sense. After so many years of being shitty, most of us would be happy if we'd had a second year in a row of mediocrity. It'd be several more years before we realized we were stuck in a different rut.
I think that was part of the Jones/Barkley debacle last offseason. Many folks wanted us to take a step backward to rebuild. Management saw how happy we were to have a decent season, and envisioned another one would have us thinking we were back. So rather than jettison 2 players who were not taking us to the promised land, they were re-signed.
The flip side is that slow and steady can win the race, so gradual improvement is a viable strategy. After so many years of sucking, fans don't have the patience for gradual, though.
The Rangers did exactly that and fans were on board with it. The Knicks have had a patient build and the fans absolutely love them, even though they don't have championship ceiling yet.
The Giants could have done this. But its not what they communicate and it's not what their actions indicate
The Rangers did exactly that and fans were on board with it. The Knicks have had a patient build and the fans absolutely love them, even though they don't have championship ceiling yet.
The Giants could have done this. But its not what they communicate and it's not what their actions indicate
Patience is the mantra of loser organizations.
Take the Mets. Under Wilpon they were a loser organization. If Wilpon were still the owner last year they would've made some small buying moves when they were 6 games out of the wild card with the hope of playing "meaningful" games in September.
Cohen saw the reality of the situation and sold at the deadline because he could accurately assess the situation and demonstrated some patience. Will it work? Nobody knows. But the process is good.
The problem with the Giants is they've had backup level QB play for 7 years. We won't know how good our "roster" is until we have a competent QB.
Schoen was willing to give up a ton for the QB he thought was worth it. He didn’t want to settle for QBs atleast a rung below, maybe more. Thats a reasonable stance, but obviously needs to be backed up with continued roster improvement to the point where we are “a qb away” and pounce on whatever opportunity presents itself in 2025.
When your O-line gives up 85 sacks and your running game is facing a 9-man line, all day, while your D-line is a turn-style THAT is defined as mediocrity
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do have the patience. Teams can have a plan, communicate the plan to the fans, and then have their actions match their words.
The Rangers did exactly that and fans were on board with it. The Knicks have had a patient build and the fans absolutely love them, even though they don't have championship ceiling yet.
The Giants could have done this. But its not what they communicate and it's not what their actions indicate
Patience is the mantra of loser organizations.
Schoen was willing to give up a ton for the QB he thought was worth it. He didn’t want to settle for QBs atleast a rung below, maybe more. Thats a reasonable stance, but obviously needs to be backed up with continued roster improvement to the point where we are “a qb away” and pounce on whatever opportunity presents itself in 2025.
That's about right.
Schoen was willing to give up a ton for the QB he thought was worth it. He didn’t want to settle for QBs atleast a rung below, maybe more. Thats a reasonable stance, but obviously needs to be backed up with continued roster improvement to the point where we are “a qb away” and pounce on whatever opportunity presents itself in 2025.
We'll soon find out if selecting Penix, Nix and JJM was settling. If any one of them is great the clock should start ticking on Schoen.
They sure seem overly-patient replacing a failure of a QB who has monopolized the roster for half a decade.
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It's not how this regime is operating, however.
They sure seem overly-patient replacing a failure of a QB who has monopolized the roster for half a decade.
A patient team wouldn't have paid him.
I don't think they're all that interested in replacing him.
This is it. This is the team Schoen and Daboll came in to build. Our expectations should be very high this year.
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such a preposterous claim. It certainly can be, just like being too aggressive and being reckless.
Schoen was willing to give up a ton for the QB he thought was worth it. He didn’t want to settle for QBs atleast a rung below, maybe more. Thats a reasonable stance, but obviously needs to be backed up with continued roster improvement to the point where we are “a qb away” and pounce on whatever opportunity presents itself in 2025.
We'll soon find out if selecting Penix, Nix and JJM was settling. If any one of them is great the clock should start ticking on Schoen.
Not really.
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It's not how this regime is operating, however.
They sure seem overly-patient replacing a failure of a QB who has monopolized the roster for half a decade.
So trying to trade up for Maye is being overly patient?
Interesting take Manhattan/Producer
This is it. This is the team Schoen and Daboll came in to build. Our expectations should be very high this year.
I would add OL instead of WR. We are basically right outside the top ten in OL spend for 2024.
At WR, we are in the 20s for spend.
But I think OL is a premium position/unit. So, that I agree with your point with some re-shuffling.
Insanely enough, we are 4th in the NFL for the QB room. Fourth!
Finally, expectations should absolutely be high around here. People should be expecting 10+ wins with our franchise QB on the mend and Schoen investing even more cash to help his franchise QB.
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They've got major resources tied up in the most expensive positions: QB, LT, WR, EDGE, CB.
This is it. This is the team Schoen and Daboll came in to build. Our expectations should be very high this year.
I would add OL instead of WR. We are basically right outside the top ten in OL spend for 2024.
At WR, we are in the 20s for spend.
But I think OL is a premium position/unit. So, that I agree with your point with some re-shuffling.
Insanely enough, we are 4th in the NFL for the QB room. Fourth!
Finally, expectations should absolutely be high around here. People should be expecting 10+ wins with our franchise QB on the mend and Schoen investing even more cash to help his franchise QB.
I'll put it this way...if they had let Jones walk after 2022 and say, signed Cousins this offseason I'd feel good about winning 10+ games this season. I didn't think this is a bad roster outside the QB. I actually think it's pretty interesting, and I was really encouraged early on when they essentially put Barkley's and McKinney's money into the OL & DL. I really thought they were on their way.
But all of it is undermined by the QB position. If this was their plan it was very clumsily executed.
At the O-line problem, but other than Thomas, this strategy hasn't yielded high benefits.
On the defensive side of the ball, they gave 2024's 2nd round pick, swapping this year's 5th rounders plus sending next years's 2nd round choice to Carolina (for linebacker Brian Burns). I wonder if they can be just as creative in the future in getting top tier vet talent for the O-line. (in other words "pics for vets").
Seems like the Panthers like to do this, recall that's how Christian McCaffery ended-up at the 49ers.
The O-line has been an unending nightmare for a long time (I thought rock-bottom was when Hal Hunter was here, I was wrong, Bobby Johnson was worse). This year, I think they've found the beginning of the answer in Carmen Bricillo, well see.
2) They wisely took an intentional veteran route to fill OL. They have a ton of yet to develop drafted OL already. And they have guys who have successfully started games in the league on the bench.
3) The defensive pass rush should be more fun and more like Giants football and if possible they continue to upgrade. I'm intrgued by the younger players already on the roster like Riley. Interesting they signed Simmons back. How will they use him?
4) At TE there is addition by subtraction. Waller won't be back. I think that boosts Bellinger. And they have a very competent blocking TE. last year their blocking TE went down in camp. This year they have 2 in camp.
5) year 1 in rd 3 The picks were young. flott may have been the youngest player in that draft. This year they drafted older players RDS 2-6. Players with lots of game experience and high floors. This draft class has a better chance to make more immediate impact.
6) Arch is only 2 years away!!!
Also JS has been a disaster so far starting with declining Barkleys option. He isn’t gentlemen level bad so we are happy, but let’s be serious he has had some absolutely massive wiffs (jones option, Neal, slayton over love, Campbell signing, jones contract, bradberry drama and no trade, Barkley drama and no trade, etc.) . I personally think the coaching staff has been able to overcome what is a deficient roster to get the wins it has for the last two years.
- Neal? I don't agree here. He was unquestionably the best OL prospect in that draft and the Giants were in a dire situation. He hasn't worked out, so far, but grading it now doesn't reflect on the consensus at the time.
- Slayton over Love? They reportedly offered Love enough that was more than what SEA offered. He wanted to go elsewhere.
- Parris? One year try and it flopped. My issue is mainly with how Daboll and Kafka used him.
- Bradberry? They were in a rough spot with his contract and couldn't get out any other way. No other team was taking on his huge cap hit.
- Barkley no trade? I do agree here absolutely. I'm not sure if Joe wanted to to truly re-sign him back in the midseason time, but I figured by the time he re-signed his 1-yr deal last summer, he was gone after. Mara input? I can't tell one way or another.
Also JS has been a disaster so far starting with declining Barkleys option. He isn’t gentlemen level bad so we are happy, but let’s be serious he has had some absolutely massive wiffs (jones option, Neal, slayton over love, Campbell signing, jones contract, bradberry drama and no trade, Barkley drama and no trade, etc.) . I personally think the coaching staff has been able to overcome what is a deficient roster to get the wins it has for the last two years.
Barkley's option was picked up, by Gettleman prior to SB's 4th year. He played the 5th yr on the option in Schoen's first year, which is how SB and DJ were up for a new contract at the same time. Option has to be picked up prior to yr 4.
Jones was not good enough, nor entirely healthy when the option had to be exercised. They tried hard to re-sign SB, so that they could tag DJ, but SB wanted more than Schoen was willing to spend. It can be argued they should have overspent on SB with a second contract, and put the tag on DJ, but that isn't what you said.
Most of the whiffs have explanations attached, but some have validity. Waller is on the legitimate whiff list.
Schoen made some poor decisions, but disaster is over stating it.
The Giants have been 3rd worst team in NFL over the past 5 years at 29-53-1 .
The 16th team in that time is 43-40 - the Cleveland Browns. That’s how far away they are from being mediocre.
The Giants are the 3rd worst team in NFL over last decade at 60-102-1. The 16th team in that time is the Tennessee Titans at 77-86.
That’s how far away from mediocrity they are.
It’s important to have a true understanding of where they are.
The Rangers did exactly that and fans were on board with it. The Knicks have had a patient build and the fans absolutely love them, even though they don't have championship ceiling yet.
The Giants could have done this. But its not what they communicate and it's not what their actions indicate
Most of the NYR fan base cheered the 2018 letter.
The Giants hired Gettleman who traded picks for Ogletree, signed Solder, and drafted Barkley.
Schoen indicated he was going to need time. Then he admittedly accelerated the rebuild last night, signed Jones to a monster deal, etc. It's insane to think this is a team that asked for time or is executing on some long-term vision.
Sure thing Manhattan/Producer😂😂
What’s next…telling us that mock drafts are data points again
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they are returning a failed QB for his 6th season and haven't drafted an alternative, or even a back up, during his entire tenure. It's not enough to *try to* acquire Drake Maye. Drake Maye wasn't the only QB available. If that's the plan: Drake Maye or bust, and if it's bust it is Daniel Jones all over again. Then that plan is not meeting the urgency and stakes of the Giants' situation. If they were going to pass on the next 3 QBs (Penix, Nix, JJM) Then they absolutely should have figured out a way to bring in a developmental QB. They are slow-rolling the QB position, and their desire for something great is getting in the way of upgrading the position to good.
Sure thing Manhattan/Producer😂😂
What’s next…telling us that mock drafts are data points again
Sure thing JT039.
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In comment 16512475 Darwinian said:
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they are returning a failed QB for his 6th season and haven't drafted an alternative, or even a back up, during his entire tenure. It's not enough to *try to* acquire Drake Maye. Drake Maye wasn't the only QB available. If that's the plan: Drake Maye or bust, and if it's bust it is Daniel Jones all over again. Then that plan is not meeting the urgency and stakes of the Giants' situation. If they were going to pass on the next 3 QBs (Penix, Nix, JJM) Then they absolutely should have figured out a way to bring in a developmental QB. They are slow-rolling the QB position, and their desire for something great is getting in the way of upgrading the position to good.
Sure thing Manhattan/Producer😂😂
What’s next…telling us that mock drafts are data points again
Sure thing JT039.
Much like your opinions - you’re way off base again. Good try though. Tell us how the cap doesn’t matter again…
Doesn't matter that there are 21 other positions on the field. Ignore all the other improvements and upgrades - they really weren't necessary. Sadly this is the position of about a dozen other posters.
Yeah, I wanted a QB. Yes likely all of them are an upgrade to Jones. But how much of an upgrade? It is always stated the the draft is rarely for the upcoming season.
But carry on - because that is exactly what you are doing - carrying on like a child.
The Giants have been 3rd worst team in NFL over the past 5 years at 29-53-1 .
The 16th team in that time is 43-40 - the Cleveland Browns. That’s how far away they are from being mediocre.
The Giants are the 3rd worst team in NFL over last decade at 60-102-1. The 16th team in that time is the Tennessee Titans at 77-86.
That’s how far away from mediocrity they are.
It’s important to have a true understanding of where they are.
Hard truth sounds like a misnomer; how about misleading cherry-picked stats.
Fact is talking about the last 5 years is totally misleading because when broken down in the first three years of that sequence the Giants were truly an awful 13-34 which if wasn't dead last in the NFL was pretty damn close. In the past two years though the Giants have been 16-19-1 as they have added quality players. And as several people have noted you don't usually go from 13-34 to the Super Bowl in 1-2 seasons. As we pointed out in another thread the Giants were something like 25-45 in George Young's first 5 years here.
The QB situation is what it is, but the roster has a lot more talent.
Moved on by the end of Day 2.
Excited for the 2024 season.
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whining about not drafting JJ McCarthy. I wanted Daniel Jones gone probably earlier than most fans, but not at the cost of making the exact same mistake again by reaching for a QB at 6.
I wanted him at 6.
Moved on by the end of Day 2.
Excited for the 2024 season.
and I can appreciate a difference of opinion regarding whether McCarthy was worth taking a shot at with #6. But this stuff about Schoen and Daboll not having a plan, or being completely incompetent, is just over the top. It's clear that everyone knows that Daniel Jones is not the ideal starter for this team - how to rectify the problem at QB without setting the team back another 3 years is not a simple task.