I see a lot of talk about the rebuild being delayed by the unexpected 2022 etc. and how we're years away, but if you look at the roster, every single key contributor was either drafted, or signed by Schoen:
QB - Jones, Lock
RB - Gray, Tracy
WR - Nabers
WR - Robinson
WR - Hyatt/Slayton
TE - Bellinger, Johnson
LT - Thomas
LG - Runyan, Ezeudu
C - Schmitz
RG - Eluemunor
RT - Neal
---------
DT - Nunes-Roches
NT - Dexter
OLB - Burns
ILB - Okereke
ILB - McFadden
OLB - Thibs
CB - Banks
CB - Phillips
CB - Flott
S - Nubin
S - Pinnock
We're 3 years into this thing. They've hand-picked the entire roster. 3 Top 10 picks. 3 max contracts. And more big $$$ deals including the QB. I see expectations are generally low coming off such a miserable year, but you can't argue the "everything that could've gone wrong did" angle. Lots of bad luck.
The point? I think it's fair to expect solid results this year. Given the significant resources invested in this roster, why shouldn't we expect a playoff team, bare minimum?
This is the first year they've had the ability to be aggressive in free agency. JS / BD are the best GM/Coach combo the Giants have had since long before Coughlin left. I for one am not looking for an excuse to show them the door.
I feel the defense is close.
Specials teams can actually be a strength.
The weapons have improved, even with losing Barkley.
Last year's season ended after the 1st drive, which sucked after a glimmer of hope in 22.
The OL and QB remain the biggest questions marks....compared to ideal.
The Commanders feel like an expansion team and will take time.
The Cowboys lost several key contributors and did little to nothing in FA. The Coach seems to be Deadman walking and Dak's future with Cowboys feels like it's coming to the end...certainly not Ideal.
The Eagles did a great job reloading, but their collapse last year was epic. Is it behind them. Another HC that just feels like he is on his last legs. Also, not ideal
If BBI had polls I would start one “which Bbi’er is most likely to have a guarded erotic fixation with DJ” …you’d have the best odds.
Exactly this, and I don't mean picking Nabers.
That's one way to look at it.
I look at the rest of the roster, and I see a LOT of good young talent acquired. This team "could" be significantly better. If the QB holds them back, well that will make an upgrade pretty clear for next year (when they can get FULL benefit of the rookie salary cap).
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While I agree, they totally fucked up their biggest decision.
If BBI had polls I would start one “which Bbi’er is most likely to have a guarded erotic fixation with DJ” …you’d have the best odds.
I think that posts says more about you than it does me, pal.
That's one way to look at it.
I look at the rest of the roster, and I see a LOT of good young talent acquired. This team "could" be significantly better. If the QB holds them back, well that will make an upgrade pretty clear for next year (when they can get FULL benefit of the rookie salary cap).
It sounds like the excuse is the Patriots wanted too much for #3. If they're rebuilding and the excuse is they want to focus on the entire roster and not getting desperate than that is an okay excuse.
That's one way to look at it.
I look at the rest of the roster, and I see a LOT of good young talent acquired. This team "could" be significantly better. If the QB holds them back, well that will make an upgrade pretty clear for next year (when they can get FULL benefit of the rookie salary cap).
We may have our franchise QB who was the CFL MVP in 2022.- Nathan Rourke. He looks good and like Jones, is a duo threat. I hope we get some feedback on his camp these past two days. I assume he was there.
That's one way to look at it.
I look at the rest of the roster, and I see a LOT of good young talent acquired. This team "could" be significantly better. If the QB holds them back, well that will make an upgrade pretty clear for next year (when they can get FULL benefit of the rookie salary cap).
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they should have their sure fire, no doubt franchise QB in house already. No excuses for not.
That's one way to look at it.
I look at the rest of the roster, and I see a LOT of good young talent acquired. This team "could" be significantly better. If the QB holds them back, well that will make an upgrade pretty clear for next year (when they can get FULL benefit of the rookie salary cap).
Agree, nothing wrong with building up the supporting cast and then finding your next franchise QB. It puts a young QB in the best position to grow and succeed. No QB could have survived behind the crappy OLs the Giants have put on the field the last several years.
and as it turns out now QB can survive with Joe Judge in the building. that asshole ruined 2 QBs now.
That's one way to look at it.
I look at the rest of the roster, and I see a LOT of good young talent acquired. This team "could" be significantly better. If the QB holds them back, well that will make an upgrade pretty clear for next year (when they can get FULL benefit of the rookie salary cap).
If the QB holds the rest of the team back isn't that a huge indictment on JS?
I truly don't see how either BD or JS survive a bad year by Jones. All the "well they can just get a QB next year talk" like there'd be no repercussions for a bad 2024 is just mind boggling to me. If the 2024 Giants season goes off the rails it's squarely on Daboll and Schoen.
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they should have their sure fire, no doubt franchise QB in house already. No excuses for not.
That's one way to look at it.
I look at the rest of the roster, and I see a LOT of good young talent acquired. This team "could" be significantly better. If the QB holds them back, well that will make an upgrade pretty clear for next year (when they can get FULL benefit of the rookie salary cap).
If the QB holds the rest of the team back isn't that a huge indictment on JS?
I truly don't see how either BD or JS survive a bad year by Jones. All the "well they can just get a QB next year talk" like there'd be no repercussions for a bad 2024 is just mind boggling to me. If the 2024 Giants season goes off the rails it's squarely on Daboll and Schoen.
Nah .. if that turns out to be their only mistake, albeit a big one, I think they get a mulligan…. Look at what Flacco did last year.
.
Is it Carr?, Geno?, maybe Garoppolo?
Or maybe its Taylor..
sounds like regression to 8-9 to me and a furious fanbase because we let our playoff winning Qb go in FA
also does that 8-8 record get us Nabers? If not who?
It's easy to say they fucked up. But, the reality is the success of 2022 hurt the team long term. We are both Jones critics, but even we were happy for Jones in March of 2023. Just about everyone here was. Brett was the only person here I recall being against making any kind of significant financial commitment towards Jones. A few others pushed for the tag.
My point being, did Schoen fuck up? Yes. But, not factoring in just how detrimental 2022 was to the long term plan is unfair.
While I do think it's year 3, it's not completely unreasonable to say it's really year 1 either. Especially factoring in what the owners preference was in March of 2023.
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While I agree, they totally fucked up their biggest decision.
It's easy to say they fucked up. But, the reality is the success of 2022 hurt the team long term. We are both Jones critics, but even we were happy for Jones in March of 2023. Just about everyone here was. Brett was the only person here I recall being against making any kind of significant financial commitment towards Jones. A few others pushed for the tag.
My point being, did Schoen fuck up? Yes. But, not factoring in just how detrimental 2022 was to the long term plan is unfair.
While I do think it's year 3, it's not completely unreasonable to say it's really year 1 either. Especially factoring in what the owners preference was in March of 2023.
Schoen didn't fuck up. He just got unlucky.
Jones coming off a playoff season, 26 and can run the football.
Tell me what GM in the league doesn't do the same and extend Jones deal?
It's what it is. I just think any outrage towards Schoen is unfair when looking at the full reality of the situation.
Hopefully the catastrophe of a contract was mandated by Mara. Because if Schoen offered it, either he is a horrendous evaluator of QBs, the worst negotiation in the league, and/or was so emotionally wrapped up in a mediocre and lucky season that he was unable to make simple decisions. None of those are good.
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In comment 16512706 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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While I agree, they totally fucked up their biggest decision.
If BBI had polls I would start one “which Bbi’er is most likely to have a guarded erotic fixation with DJ” …you’d have the best odds.
I think that posts says more about you than it does me, pal.
Shit! You’re right! IM the one who derails every godforsaken thread to spin it about DJ while adding nothing constructive. You reflect on every decision as somehow related to Jones.
I still think DJ can go back to his 2022 form so long as the offensive line is at least adequate and we find an adequate RB. To me, I think he still has the ability to be a threat with both his arms and legs so long as he has somewhat adequate time.
I love what Schoen did in this draft, but look at what the Commanders did...even after drafting Daniels, they got Newton, Sainstril, Sinnott, Coleman, and McCaffrey, plus others. Arguably there isn't a team in the NFL that helped themselves more in this draft than the Commanders.
And even if there's more to it than QB, it's also true that no position is more important in all of sports than QB. It is the best determinator of winning and losing in the NFL...how good is your QB? A better determinator than who the head coach is.
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In comment 16512734 Dave on the UWS said:
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they should have their sure fire, no doubt franchise QB in house already. No excuses for not.
That's one way to look at it.
I look at the rest of the roster, and I see a LOT of good young talent acquired. This team "could" be significantly better. If the QB holds them back, well that will make an upgrade pretty clear for next year (when they can get FULL benefit of the rookie salary cap).
If the QB holds the rest of the team back isn't that a huge indictment on JS?
I truly don't see how either BD or JS survive a bad year by Jones. All the "well they can just get a QB next year talk" like there'd be no repercussions for a bad 2024 is just mind boggling to me. If the 2024 Giants season goes off the rails it's squarely on Daboll and Schoen.
Nah .. if that turns out to be their only mistake, albeit a big one, I think they get a mulligan…. Look at what Flacco did last year.
.
Eric said a couple weeks ago that even average fans think "Daniel Jones is the antichrist" and another poster (i forget whom) said something along the lines of "even average Joe fans will be questioning the FOs decision making if Jones fails" especially if a QB they passed on looks good.
A bad year and the fanbase will hate the sight of JS and BD, and as ranaan said on TMKS when the fans can't stand to see a coaches face anymore they get fired. I truly believe there is a large possibility this season becomes a bigger clown show than the end of Judge's tenure
dallas hasnt been able to add anyone this year and they've lost 6 starters including their center and the LT of the decade Tyron smith. also lost quinn.
washington made a lot of moves but a rookie qb is still just that.
philly and dallas have obviously been the class of the division and they will remain that until proven otherwise but the inverse is true of washington. the giants have won 2 Sbs since the last time they won a playoff game.
If the season goes very badly I can see Daboll laying his job, but I don't think Schoen is in any danger. They didn't fire Gettleman, after all. In fact, I don't even know the last GM they fired before Reese...it probably goes all the way back to George Young's predecessor or longer.
And why did Reese get fired? Not sure to performance but because he had the temerity to question the job security of a sacred cow. He ended up being 100% correct, but never mind that...
If the season goes very badly I can see Daboll laying his job, but I don't think Schoen is in any danger. They didn't fire Gettleman, after all. In fact, I don't even know the last GM they fired before Reese...it probably goes all the way back to George Young's predecessor or longer.
And why did Reese get fired? Not sure to performance but because he had the temerity to question the job security of a sacred cow. He ended up being 100% correct, but never mind that...
Reese was fired because he was 53 and his career wasn't over. I'm sure he didn't think he'd never work again so retiring wasn't an option. And I can't remember the last time a GM quit, that would have been worse for everyone. Firing was the only option. Gettleman had just beaten cancer and was in his 70s so he knew it was his last job, so retiring was an option.
Is it Carr?, Geno?, maybe Garoppolo?
Or maybe its Taylor..
sounds like regression to 8-9 to me and a furious fanbase because we let our playoff winning Qb go in FA
also does that 8-8 record get us Nabers? If not who?
Interesting scenario. I'd say if they let DJ walk, they focus on signing Barkley to a long term deal. Then go into the 2023 looking hard at the QB class. With Taylor under contract as a bridge QB, they probably take Levis in the first round. Taylor begins the season as starter but due to injury, Levis gets playing time. He displays some quality traits but the results are a mixed bag (much like he showed in Tennessee). If we regress to 8-9, there will be some fans who would blame JS for letting DJ walk but that'll be balanced out by a lot of fans who would have hope for Levis' potential. Come draft time, we end up not with Nabers but perhaps Brian Thomas Jr or Xavier Worthy.
In this alternate reality, we would have more cap space to utilize in FA(JS would've signed better depth in the trenches) plus a young QB in Levis going into his second year. I think a lot of fans would sign up for that in a heartbeat.
Daboll is in more danger but it is not just about the record. Schoen is in trouble if the OL is as bad as last season or shows very little progress imv.
If Carmen Bricillo is who he appears to be, the line will be vastly improved over last year's injury plagued disaster. That in itself will upgrade the offense whether Jones or Lock starts. This is the area that will determine the Giants effectiveness.
Those claiming the loss of Barkley is devasting are probably the same who criticized him weekly for not running hard. He will play well for the Eagles because of their line. The Giants actually did exactly what most clamored for - get a low cost 5th round RB saying that is all that is needed. I am actually not worried about RB production. Singletary will do ok and I think Gray and Tracey will find their niche.
Yes this is Schoen's and Daboll's roster now. As long as they don't turn into babbling fools at press conferences or Daboll loses the locker room, they are not in danger even if they go 3-14, because that record gets them to a top 3 pick next April.
This is correct. Everyone else was either brought in by Schoen or re-signed by him. These three are on the last year of their rookie deals, the last of Gettleman's picks who have not been extended.
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Off the top of my head the only contracts left they inherented are Ojulari, Robinson, and Brightwell. Anyone else?
This is correct. Everyone else was either brought in by Schoen or re-signed by him. These three are on the last year of their rookie deals, the last of Gettleman's picks who have not been extended.
Small caveat.
Ellerson Smith is still on the books for an almost $1M dead cap hit. All other dead cap numbers Schoen had a hand in.
Obviously the line needs to play much better, but the QB is the glue which makes the roster go typically. Just look at the Texans.
My point is - these are the players they wanted on the team and have paid huge resources for. Schoen’s handed out $352M in guaranteed $$$ over the last 2 years.
I’m providing some pushback on the “we’re years away” takes/nothing to look forward to this year. After that kind of cash outlay, I can’t imagine there’s much appetite upstairs for “we’re years away”.
This roster needs to win now.
I see your point but technically they are now playing on contracts given to them by Schoen.
Yes, for the same reason why he gets criticism for the Jones contract.
My point is - these are the players they wanted on the team and have paid huge resources for. Schoen’s handed out $352M in guaranteed $$$ over the last 2 years.
I’m providing some pushback on the “we’re years away” takes/nothing to look forward to this year. After that kind of cash outlay, I can’t imagine there’s much appetite upstairs for “we’re years away”.
This roster needs to win now.
I never understood the years away opinions. The roster should be in the wild card mix. By 2025, it should be ready for a deeper run. But, the QB is a massive question mark.
I think this is mostly right. But don't underestimate Mara's emotional reactions if things get ugly.
Landmines to look out for: Jones getting hurt late in the year, the Vikings/JJM outclassing the Giants, the Steelers/Wilson outclassing the Giants.
Any of those + a bad season, and things go sideways.
I think that would pave the way to Belichick & McDaniels.
I just think this is objectively wrong. Assuming you are referring to DJ's contract (and we all assume you are), it clearly has not been their biggest decision. They gave him a two year $85MM deal with team option in year 3 and year 4. Better than we thought he would get but very far from top QB pay. They gave much bigger and longer deals to Burns, Thomas, Dex, especially relative to their positions. KT, Neal, and Naber are all bigger decisions.
I agree QB is more important than any single other decision, but if they had just let DJ walk, yes we get the $85MM in cap space back but who is your QB? You could have Derek Carr I guess. They still would not have Drake Maye. More space is nice, but it does not solve the actual problem. Contrary to popular opinion the Giants have never been significantly cap constrained. They simply have not had a good enough talent base to justify maxing out cap usage (see the Eagles.) Regardless of our nominal space we could absolutely spend $45MM more this year and just push it forward with option years.
If you think QB is the most important question, which I do, the biggest mistake was not treating last year as an attempt to improve draft position once it was hopeless. That would include starting Devito the rest of the year. If he is good, fine maybe you can build on that. If he sucks great, a higher draft pick. In the same way you trade SB and McKinney like they did with Leo, if you can get anything reasonable at all - a third or better. Same thinking. If you lose more that is good not bad.
If they had done that, then they could likely have Drake Maye or Jayden Daniels.
I think that would pave the way to Belichick & McDaniels.
Yup. Right now everyone is on the perch of common sense. If the Giants are effectively eliminated again before it's cold out, it will get ugly.
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I don't think Schoen should either. 3-14 would be a catastrophic season with no plan at QB. That's the only scenario where the whole thing gets blown up imo.
I think that would pave the way to Belichick & McDaniels.
Yup. Right now everyone is on the perch of common sense. If the Giants are effectively eliminated again before it's cold out, it will get ugly.
#1 - only a fool would want Belichick at this point. He was totally ineffective his last 4 or 5 years in New England even with total control. Once Brady rightfully left, the disaster that was left in New England courtesy of BB fell flat on its face.
#2 - I am not convinced 3-14 means anything without context. If the team revolts and Daboll loses the locker room, yes. If they play hard, show some progress(I know how is 3-14 progress?) in development, then at 3-14 they get to draft their QB.
There is no way I want BB coaching the Giants, now.
I believe Schoen & Daboll are here for the long term, but you can't go 3-14. That's a disaster and there is no spin which would warrant them staying on imo.
They went 6-11 last year. 3-14 in 2024? No way.
I believe Schoen & Daboll are here for the long term, but you can't go 3-14. That's a disaster and there is no spin which would warrant them staying on imo.
They went 6-11 last year. 3-14 in 2024? No way.
Shit happens. Lose a few close ones. Injuries again. The issue here is too many people expect change for change's sake. That is why I said it has to be taken in context. Plus it gets them high enough on the draft order to likely get a good QB. What happens if Jones and Lock get season ending injuries?
Yeah, 3-14 is horrible. I do not expect it. But the last thing I want is BB hired.
I think that would pave the way to Belichick & McDaniels.
That's a scary thought.
Training camp starts ~July 25th. Any major injury from camp onward will linger past the March 15th date, where his injury guarantee kicks in.
If he gets hurt and the Giants have to eat 23M of his 2025 salary, the fans will burn the tin can down.
I am tired of regime change for the sake of regime change. I do not expect a big improvement in their record because they have crappy QBs. I do feel these guys at least have a plan to fix the team. Yes 2023 was an eff up - coerced by 2022's success.
Who knows. All their draft picks could fall flat on their faces this year and Bricillo could be unable to correct the line(scary thought).
However, and most importantly over anything else, if Bricillo can do what he has shown to be able to do, the offense might very well be semi-functional. I do expect the defense to be better than last year.
belichick and vrabel are the 2 obvious names.
could they come in and work with schoen? possible. they both seem to have connections. but they are likely to be in some level of demand and if they are they will probably look to and should get to choose their GM.
i like daboll though and i think it's better than 50% he sticks through next year, i think not enough is made of the reality that we all mostly think he's solid despite being here 2 years. within 2 years we knew all the last guys were trash. the fact that very few of us seem to feel that way about Daboll seems to me to be not a small thing. Last year was obviously a big misfire, but i think they made changes to address those structural problems.
belichick and vrabel are the 2 obvious names.
could they come in and work with schoen? possible. they both seem to have connections. but they are likely to be in some level of demand and if they are they will probably look to and should get to choose their GM.
i like daboll though and i think it's better than 50% he sticks through next year, i think not enough is made of the reality that we all mostly think he's solid despite being here 2 years. within 2 years we knew all the last guys were trash. the fact that very few of us seem to feel that way about Daboll seems to me to be not a small thing. Last year was obviously a big misfire, but i think they made changes to address those structural problems.
I think a lot of people forget the Giants went 6-11 last year. That's a bad season, don't get me wrong, but it's not a catastrophic season. It was heading that way at 2-8, but Daboll get the train back on the tracks and his team was very competitive against the Rams in a loss too.
I put the floor at 6 wins next year and I think an 8-9 type season is very possible with a chance at a 6 or 7 seed. 3-14 all bets are off.
This is the first year they've had the ability to be aggressive in free agency. JS / BD are the best GM/Coach combo the Giants have had since long before Coughlin left. I for one am not looking for an excuse to show them the door.
Could not agree more. We need to lose this sort of punitive mentality where we fire people strictly on the basis of "holding people accountable" or almost as a form of punishment. Fire someone if you are convinced you have a replacement in mind that can do a better job. Don't just fire someone based on some platitude.
A place of consistent competitiveness can take time to reach. Things aren't always going to progress in perfectly linear fashion.
Big year 3 coming but I am looking forward to seeing a young team with talent find their way.
I'll say the Giants need to get back to a point where 7-9 was considered a bad season, not 3-14. Fassel's tenure is a good example. He had a lot of 7-9/8-8 seasons and was ultimately fired after 4-12.
At some point this franchise started to take positives from 5-11 type seasons. I'll never forget Gettleman & Shurmur at the podium referencing how the Giants improved from 3 wins to 5 and selling it as progress.
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if they replace daboll you have to think they are going to hire an experienced coach and not a 5th coordinator promotion in a row.
belichick and vrabel are the 2 obvious names.
could they come in and work with schoen? possible. they both seem to have connections. but they are likely to be in some level of demand and if they are they will probably look to and should get to choose their GM.
i like daboll though and i think it's better than 50% he sticks through next year, i think not enough is made of the reality that we all mostly think he's solid despite being here 2 years. within 2 years we knew all the last guys were trash. the fact that very few of us seem to feel that way about Daboll seems to me to be not a small thing. Last year was obviously a big misfire, but i think they made changes to address those structural problems.
I think a lot of people forget the Giants went 6-11 last year. That's a bad season, don't get me wrong, but it's not a catastrophic season. It was heading that way at 2-8, but Daboll get the train back on the tracks and his team was very competitive against the Rams in a loss too.
I put the floor at 6 wins next year and I think an 8-9 type season is very possible with a chance at a 6 or 7 seed. 3-14 all bets are off.
agreed. they played 3 different QBs including a rookie UDFA and the OL was abject horseshit.
hard to foresee a scenario with more catastrophe than that. and losing half as many games would presumably mean twice as catastrophic.
I think they're both safe unless there's a combination of 10+ loss season and one of:
- A major Jones injury
- One of the QBs they passed on lights them/or the league up
I think they're both safe unless there's a combination of 10+ loss season and one of:
- A major Jones injury
- One of the QBs they passed on lights them/or the league up
They can't be worse than last year imo. These moves are largely win now moves without sacrificing the future. It's something I think Schoen does a good job with, but you can't make the investments they've made and go backwards.
I think they're both safe unless there's a combination of 10+ loss season and one of:
- A major Jones injury
- One of the QBs they passed on lights them/or the league up
I don't see where a major Jones' injury means anything other than he is injured. It is football. Players get hurt - Jones is good at it. (Yes I know the $25 mill). They cannot decommit to him for fear of the injury guarantee.
Ok, if you are saying combined with McCarthy/Penix doing well, then that is a consideration. (I do not think Nix was ever in the mix).
But yeah, if what you posted unfolds, I can see Mara panicking....
Oh boy. BBI would go nuclear.
they went 5-6 without jones last year and neither of those things happened. 1 win vs playoff teams with each qb (tyrod philly, devito gb) and 1 almost win vs playoff teams from each of them as well (tyrod buf, devito LAR).
tyrod was mediocre, devito had a few good games but played bad enough to lose his job to tyrod when he was healthy.
only blow out was dallas and i dont blame the qbs for defense giving up 49.
they chose their QBs to live or die with in the standings.
If the Giants are both a bad football team, and the decision they made to stick with Jones blows up in embarrassing fashion, the crowd, media, and fan reaction will rival the Judge quarterback sneak game.
No one should feel safe if that's the atmosphere.
Oh boy. BBI would go nuclear.
I doubt it. The majority will go along with whatever they do. There will be initial anger, and then whomever they draft will be the greatest thing ever the following May.
Oh boy. BBI would go nuclear.
No they wouldn't. About 5 people would. It was always there in plain sight. If $23 mill means he goes away, then it may mean a celebration...
they went 5-6 without jones last year and neither of those things happened.
Last year is a markedly different story. They went into the season with institutional and presumed fan support in Jones.
Jones v. 2024 has diminished institutional cache and if this site is a +/-25% accurate barometer of fan sentiment, is hanging by a thread.
If they made an embarrassing decision with Jones and they lose double digit games, a heart beat from Lock and DeVito isn't saving jobs.
Oh boy. BBI would go nuclear.
No they wouldn't. About 5 people would. It was always there in plain sight. If $23 mill means he goes away, then it may mean a celebration...
You're kidding, right?
If Jones survives the season and is cut his 2025 dead money hit is 22M.
If Jones re-tears his ACL his 2025 dead money hit is 45M.
The fans and the media will be irate.
I just don't think it matters as much as we think it does. If Jones suffers a career ending neck injury, they'll support him and empathize with him as opposed to getting pissy about an additional $23M which they'll need to pay.
The Giants are a committee run team. It's why I always add some context around what has happened at QB since Schoen took over. If you don't think ownership had a strong preference about how QB was handled, just go read the quotes. It's all out there including the day Schoen was hired.
There are two clear moments which happened that set the franchise back:
1. Eli crying in the locker room in 2017.
2. The Minnesota playoff win.
Both those moments led to a course of action which hurt the franchise.
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then obviously the injury becomes almost irrelevant in terms of daboll/schoen.
they went 5-6 without jones last year and neither of those things happened.
Last year is a markedly different story. They went into the season with institutional and presumed fan support in Jones.
Jones v. 2024 has diminished institutional cache and if this site is a +/-25% accurate barometer of fan sentiment, is hanging by a thread.
If they made an embarrassing decision with Jones and they lose double digit games, a heart beat from Lock and DeVito isn't saving jobs.
if they lose double digit games nothing is saving them so it doesn't matter. jones could put up josh allen stats, if they lose double digits daboll is still probably gone.
My point is Schoen/Daboll's credibility will be in the cross hairs of the fans and media.
And if you add no confidence in the management/coaching + a losing product on the field, things will get ugly.
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If Jones gets injured & the Giants have to eat the $23 million on his ‘25 salary…
Oh boy. BBI would go nuclear.
No they wouldn't. About 5 people would. It was always there in plain sight. If $23 mill means he goes away, then it may mean a celebration...
You're kidding, right?
If Jones survives the season and is cut his 2025 dead money hit is 22M.
If Jones re-tears his ACL his 2025 dead money hit is 45M.
The fans and the media will be irate.
I'm not sure they would be. They're not irate now and this franchise has been the picture of incompetence.
The Giants' calendar year is a roller coaster with the low point usually being around Halloween and the high point almost always being in May.
they went 5-6 without jones last year and neither of those things happened.
Last year is a markedly different story. They went into the season with institutional and presumed fan support in Jones.
Jones v. 2024 has diminished institutional cache and if this site is a +/-25% accurate barometer of fan sentiment, is hanging by a thread.
If they made an embarrassing decision with Jones and they lose double digit games, a heart beat from Lock and DeVito isn't saving jobs.
if they lose double digit games nothing is saving them so it doesn't matter. jones could put up josh allen stats, if they lose double digits daboll is still probably gone.
I disagree. If Jones has a CPOY type year and the team is in contention after Thanksgiving, I think Daboll gets another year. 7-10 with the arrow pointing in the right direction is enough.
The Packers were 6-8 on December 17th last year. A 6-8 Giants team will likely be in contention mid-December and if they miss out on the tournament but play go toe-to-toe with in the NFCE, the stadium won't get ugly.
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If Jones gets injured & the Giants have to eat the $23 million on his ‘25 salary…
Oh boy. BBI would go nuclear.
No they wouldn't. About 5 people would. It was always there in plain sight. If $23 mill means he goes away, then it may mean a celebration...
You're kidding, right?
If Jones survives the season and is cut his 2025 dead money hit is 22M.
If Jones re-tears his ACL his 2025 dead money hit is 45M.
The fans and the media will be irate.
Oops, forgot the bonus money outstanding...good observation
The media will be irate? Eff the media - the media should never enter this kind of conversation.
In any point, Jones is playing this year. Whether he gets hurt or not it is already built into the equation. They are stuck with him. The only way out is a post June 1st cut after he clears medically but he still gets $47 mill this year.
Green Bay was missing four starters. WFT traded two players from the DL and the outstanding 2022 D stunk in 2023. Pats were a mess. Eagles "replaced" the DC and were also a mess and then got blown out by TB in the playoffs. Traveling west to east coast (Rams) is not easy. Giants has a very 2nd half schedule.
Oops, forgot the bonus money outstanding...good observation
The media will be irate? Eff the media - the media should never enter this kind of conversation.
In any point, Jones is playing this year. Whether he gets hurt or not it is already built into the equation. They are stuck with him. The only way out is a post June 1st cut after he clears medically but he still gets $47 mill this year.
You dance with the girl you brought to prom, and in this case the media is part of it. The media is an input and output of the fans, and Mara reacts.
Imagine a headline: Giants Fall to 4-10, Jones Re-Tears ACL
Sub-Head: Injury likely nets Jones $23 Million
If I'm Schoen, I don't show up Monday.
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If Jones gets injured & the Giants have to eat the $23 million on his ‘25 salary…
Oh boy. BBI would go nuclear.
I doubt it. The majority will go along with whatever they do. There will be initial anger, and then whomever they draft will be the greatest thing ever the following May.
If I can't fix it, I'm not going to invest in anger. (Aside from initial shock)
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In comment 16513330 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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If Jones gets injured & the Giants have to eat the $23 million on his ‘25 salary…
Oh boy. BBI would go nuclear.
I doubt it. The majority will go along with whatever they do. There will be initial anger, and then whomever they draft will be the greatest thing ever the following May.
I know that it can feel that way, but for most is less about "going along" and more about moving on.
If I can't fix it, I'm not going to invest in anger. (Aside from initial shock)
I think you can move on and still accept the people making the decisions are making bad decisions. I try to look at the situation as though I were looking at a team I didn't care about.
If you took the Giants' exact situation and put it on the Seahawks or Jaguars, I'd have no problem saying that team is a complete mess from ownership on down. Why should the Giants be any different?
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if there are seats empty in december because they are out of it, there will be jobs empty. no need to over complicate.
The Packers were 6-8 on December 17th last year. A 6-8 Giants team will likely be in contention mid-December and if they miss out on the tournament but play go toe-to-toe with in the NFCE, the stadium won't get ugly.
this was last year's playoff picture on 11/29 with the giants at 4-8 entering their bye week on 2 game winning streak, the packers entered december 5-6 at the time of this chart (and then were 6-6 after 12/3).
needless to say even though there was only 1 win seperating them, there is a very big difference between being .500 at the start of december and 4 games under. 6-6 for nyg would be a 50% win improvement and almost the same type of boost in their playoff odds:
if daboll is again 4 under .500 or worse after Thanksgiving with playoff odds at near 0 it is over barring a miraculous winning streak that gets them to 8 or 9 wins.
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Oops, forgot the bonus money outstanding...good observation
The media will be irate? Eff the media - the media should never enter this kind of conversation.
In any point, Jones is playing this year. Whether he gets hurt or not it is already built into the equation. They are stuck with him. The only way out is a post June 1st cut after he clears medically but he still gets $47 mill this year.
You dance with the girl you brought to prom, and in this case the media is part of it. The media is an input and output of the fans, and Mara reacts.
Imagine a headline: Giants Fall to 4-10, Jones Re-Tears ACL
Sub-Head: Injury likely nets Jones $23 Million
If I'm Schoen, I don't show up Monday.
If he doesn't show up Monday, then can him!
I am resigned to Jones for another year. I cannot believe that the entire FO has not thought of this and hasn't discussed a plan and that JM is not part of that conversation.
I think they'll be better than last year, but only if Bricillo fixes the line. IMHO, this season depends heavily on Bricillo. I am not going to say he is more important than Daboll and Bowen, but probably more important than Kafka.
I think they're both safe unless there's a combination of 10+ loss season and one of:
- A major Jones injury
- One of the QBs they passed on lights them/or the league up
I would guess many fans wouldn't be surprised at all of Porcelain Jones goes down again. In fact, I would guess most expect it. And then the conversation should shift to whether Lock was the right insurance policy if he plays poorly.
I couldn't agree more how bad this will look if our season goes sideways and McCarthy or Nix (assuming Penix won't play) hit.
I would also toss in the OL. The OL situation is Schoen's biggest mistake outside of the Jones contract. He's essentially in revamp #3.
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The pitchforks haven't come out for Schoen or Daboll yet, so we don't know how they'll react if that time comes.
I think they're both safe unless there's a combination of 10+ loss season and one of:
- A major Jones injury
- One of the QBs they passed on lights them/or the league up
I would guess many fans wouldn't be surprised at all of Porcelain Jones goes down again. In fact, I would guess most expect it. And then the conversation should shift to whether Lock was the right insurance policy if he plays poorly.
I couldn't agree more how bad this will look if our season goes sideways and McCarthy or Nix (assuming Penix won't play) hit.
I would also toss in the OL. The OL situation is Schoen's biggest mistake outside of the Jones contract. He's essentially in revamp #3.
So it’s Schoen’s fault that literally every O line pick he has made has gotten hurt
Spin away
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In comment 16513317 christian said:
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The pitchforks haven't come out for Schoen or Daboll yet, so we don't know how they'll react if that time comes.
I think they're both safe unless there's a combination of 10+ loss season and one of:
- A major Jones injury
- One of the QBs they passed on lights them/or the league up
I would guess many fans wouldn't be surprised at all of Porcelain Jones goes down again. In fact, I would guess most expect it. And then the conversation should shift to whether Lock was the right insurance policy if he plays poorly.
I couldn't agree more how bad this will look if our season goes sideways and McCarthy or Nix (assuming Penix won't play) hit.
I would also toss in the OL. The OL situation is Schoen's biggest mistake outside of the Jones contract. He's essentially in revamp #3.
So it’s Schoen’s fault that literally every O line pick he has made has gotten hurt
Spin away
that would be a more compelling point if the injury replacements off waivers for neal, ezeudu, mckethan, etc weren't generally better than the guys he drafted.
this was last year's playoff picture on 11/29 with the giants at 4-8 entering their bye week on 2 game winning streak, the packers entered december 5-6 at the time of this chart (and then were 6-6 after 12/3).
needless to say even though there was only 1 win seperating them, there is a very big difference between being .500 at the start of december and 4 games under. 6-6 for nyg would be a 50% win improvement and almost the same type of boost in their playoff odds:
if daboll is again 4 under .500 or worse after Thanksgiving with playoff odds at near 0 it is over barring a miraculous winning streak that gets them to 8 or 9 wins.
I agree with the bolded. The sentiment I disagree with is:
A team can lose 10 games ultimately, but have been in the hunt, and fill the stadium. And if Jones has an MVP vote season, Daboll will definitely get good grace from that.
I'll go with my stance -- the Giants need to lose 10 games + some additional embarrassing factor (Jones goes down, they get outclassed by a QB they had a chance at, they lose 12+ games, etc.)
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In comment 16513436 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16513317 christian said:
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The pitchforks haven't come out for Schoen or Daboll yet, so we don't know how they'll react if that time comes.
I think they're both safe unless there's a combination of 10+ loss season and one of:
- A major Jones injury
- One of the QBs they passed on lights them/or the league up
I would guess many fans wouldn't be surprised at all of Porcelain Jones goes down again. In fact, I would guess most expect it. And then the conversation should shift to whether Lock was the right insurance policy if he plays poorly.
I couldn't agree more how bad this will look if our season goes sideways and McCarthy or Nix (assuming Penix won't play) hit.
I would also toss in the OL. The OL situation is Schoen's biggest mistake outside of the Jones contract. He's essentially in revamp #3.
So it’s Schoen’s fault that literally every O line pick he has made has gotten hurt
Spin away
that would be a more compelling point if the injury replacements off waivers for neal, ezeudu, mckethan, etc weren't generally better than the guys he drafted.
McKethan- missed entire 1st year
2nd year- missed almost all of camp….then due to injuries was thrown in and not ready
Ezudu- missed most of year 1- injury
Year 2- played out of position…then got hurt
JMS- had ups and downs- was hurt most of 2nd half of year
Neal- struggled, but was hurt most of the time
Outside of Phillips…who were these replacements who played noticeably better
I think they're both safe unless there's a combination of 10+ loss season and one of:
- A major Jones injury
- One of the QBs they passed on lights them/or the league up
I would guess many fans wouldn't be surprised at all of Porcelain Jones goes down again. In fact, I would guess most expect it. And then the conversation should shift to whether Lock was the right insurance policy if he plays poorly.
I couldn't agree more how bad this will look if our season goes sideways and McCarthy or Nix (assuming Penix won't play) hit.
I would also toss in the OL. The OL situation is Schoen's biggest mistake outside of the Jones contract. He's essentially in revamp #3.
Don't forget Wilson. If he has a CPOY season and lights the Giants up, in the midst of a bad season, it will get ugly too.
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The Packers were 6-8 on December 17th last year. A 6-8 Giants team will likely be in contention mid-December and if they miss out on the tournament but play go toe-to-toe with in the NFCE, the stadium won't get ugly.
this was last year's playoff picture on 11/29 with the giants at 4-8 entering their bye week on 2 game winning streak, the packers entered december 5-6 at the time of this chart (and then were 6-6 after 12/3).
needless to say even though there was only 1 win seperating them, there is a very big difference between being .500 at the start of december and 4 games under. 6-6 for nyg would be a 50% win improvement and almost the same type of boost in their playoff odds:
if daboll is again 4 under .500 or worse after Thanksgiving with playoff odds at near 0 it is over barring a miraculous winning streak that gets them to 8 or 9 wins.
I agree with the bolded. The sentiment I disagree with is:
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if they lose double digit games nothing is saving them so it doesn't matter. jones could put up josh allen stats, if they lose double digits daboll is still probably gone.
A team can lose 10 games ultimately, but have been in the hunt, and fill the stadium. And if Jones has an MVP vote season, Daboll will definitely get good grace from that.
threading a very fine needle there. if they are 7-6 with jones and in it but he gets hurt and they lose 4 in a row without him, that's pretty much the only scenario where daboll gets some good grace because of jones.
if jones loses 10 or more games his stats wont matter w/r/t daboll's career prospects. the only way for jones to put up good numbers and lose that many games is that daboll blew another DC hiring or coached a sloppy team that lost a lot of games they shouldnt have with turnovers or ST mistakes.
either way there is almost no scenario worth imagining that changes the basic math - 10+ losses again and dabs survival rate is well below 10%.
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Despite cap restraints they went to the playoffs and won in the playoffs their first year here. The faltered in their second year under the burden of similar cap restraints, crushing injuries and a much tougher schedule. Despite all that there were positive signs. In the latter half of the season their play improved. They signed an UDFA QB who played better than half of the first round QB's drafted in recent years.
This is the first year they've had the ability to be aggressive in free agency. JS / BD are the best GM/Coach combo the Giants have had since long before Coughlin left. I for one am not looking for an excuse to show them the door.
Could not agree more. We need to lose this sort of punitive mentality where we fire people strictly on the basis of "holding people accountable" or almost as a form of punishment. Fire someone if you are convinced you have a replacement in mind that can do a better job. Don't just fire someone based on some platitude.
A place of consistent competitiveness can take time to reach. Things aren't always going to progress in perfectly linear fashion.
Big year 3 coming but I am looking forward to seeing a young team with talent find their way.
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The 2023 team really could have gone 3-14 with a few bounces. A 6-11 season in 2024 would be an embarrassment and *should* result in cleaning house. But with this organization who knows; they could be 5-11 and draw major positive conclusions from a meaningless week 17 win. We've seen that before.
I'll say the Giants need to get back to a point where 7-9 was considered a bad season, not 3-14. Fassel's tenure is a good example. He had a lot of 7-9/8-8 seasons and was ultimately fired after 4-12.
At some point this franchise started to take positives from 5-11 type seasons. I'll never forget Gettleman & Shurmur at the podium referencing how the Giants improved from 3 wins to 5 and selling it as progress.
This is the primary problem with the Giants as an organization lately. It is the same one that plagues my NY Islanders - lowering expectations every year, to the point where the end of year press conference is to point out why a disappointing season should actually be considered successful.
I don't like the constant turnover at GM and HC, but I also don't like the view that we will hire guys and then keep them for a really long time, regardless of how they perform. There needs to be some expectation for what is expected out of a year, and if it is not met you have a period of time to correct it or we'll find someone else who can.
I agree Near MVP Jones and 10 losses are virtually mutual exclusive, so that's not worth debating.
I completely disagree with the odds otherwise.
7-10 with a CPOY caliber season from Jones, and in the playoff hunt in December? I'd give Daboll a 99% chance of returning.
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In comment 16513279 Go Terps said:
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The 2023 team really could have gone 3-14 with a few bounces. A 6-11 season in 2024 would be an embarrassment and *should* result in cleaning house. But with this organization who knows; they could be 5-11 and draw major positive conclusions from a meaningless week 17 win. We've seen that before.
I'll say the Giants need to get back to a point where 7-9 was considered a bad season, not 3-14. Fassel's tenure is a good example. He had a lot of 7-9/8-8 seasons and was ultimately fired after 4-12.
At some point this franchise started to take positives from 5-11 type seasons. I'll never forget Gettleman & Shurmur at the podium referencing how the Giants improved from 3 wins to 5 and selling it as progress.
This is the primary problem with the Giants as an organization lately. It is the same one that plagues my NY Islanders - lowering expectations every year, to the point where the end of year press conference is to point out why a disappointing season should actually be considered successful.
I don't like the constant turnover at GM and HC, but I also don't like the view that we will hire guys and then keep them for a really long time, regardless of how they perform. There needs to be some expectation for what is expected out of a year, and if it is not met you have a period of time to correct it or we'll find someone else who can.
I don't think the Giants have had a coherent vision on building towards contention at any point since 2017 (2017, of course, blew up in our faces). It's been a rudderless franchise.
So it’s Schoen’s fault that literally every O line pick he has made has gotten hurt
No, but it's Schoen's fault that nearly every OL outside of Thomas has rarely played well when healthy.
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So it’s Schoen’s fault that literally every O line pick he has made has gotten hurt
No, but it's Schoen's fault that nearly every OL outside of Thomas has rarely played well when healthy.
Combine injuries, lack of experience and terrible coaching….not a recipe for success
This year will tell a lot
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So it’s Schoen’s fault that literally every O line pick he has made has gotten hurt
No, but it's Schoen's fault that nearly every OL outside of Thomas has rarely played well when healthy.
Some of that I also lay at the feet of the coaching staff. They spent too much time in the offseason trying to tweak to find the perfect combination rather than using the limited reps to develop chemistry.
7-10 with a CPOY caliber season from Jones, and in the playoff hunt in December? I'd give Daboll a 99% chance of returning.
squaring 7-10 with being "in a playoff hunt" is where you lose me but it doesnt matter.
i think getting to 8 or 9 wins with jones sucking is a better outcome for daboll than 7 or fewer wins but a good season for jones. do you disagree with that?
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In comment 16513447 Mbavaro said:
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So it’s Schoen’s fault that literally every O line pick he has made has gotten hurt
No, but it's Schoen's fault that nearly every OL outside of Thomas has rarely played well when healthy.
Some of that I also lay at the feet of the coaching staff. They spent too much time in the offseason trying to tweak to find the perfect combination rather than using the limited reps to develop chemistry.
4 of the 5 positions were set going into the year
At the same time….need to develop position flexibility
Have no problem with that
At the same time…when you still can’t pick up a stunt in week 17…that is a coaching issue and hopefully that will be fixed
Combine injuries, lack of experience and terrible coaching….not a recipe for success
This year will tell a lot
This really comes across as a lot of excuse making for Schoen. I just don't think it's wise to dispel the idea that Schoen just might not be good at evaluating and building an OL. Which is why I raised the point in the first place that OL should be considered a major issue attached to Schoen heading into 2024.
Didn't Bobby Johnson come with questions when Daboll brought him over?
No doubt worst hire of the staff.
i think getting to 8 or 9 wins with jones sucking is a better outcome for daboll than 7 or fewer wins but a good season for jones. do you disagree with that?
I think the Giants were technically eliminated from the playoffs week 16 last year. So a 7-win team could conceivably be in real contention week 17 or 18. Which avoids the empty seats in December scenario you referenced above.
So my rough guesses:
Playoffs = Definitely Back
7ish+ Wins = Likely Back
4-7ish Wins + some additional embarrassment = Likely Gone
0-4ish Wins = Definitely Gone
Schoen started with AT at left tackle and he had the benefit of him having his first season being healthy. If Neal played to his draft slot the Giants would be in a pretty good spot.
No doubt worst hire of the staff.
The Bills had mixed results under Johnson. Underwhelming in 2019, well regarded in 2020, middle-of-the-road in 2021.
Name me a head coach where 💯 of their initial hires worked out?
I’ll be waiting
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Combine injuries, lack of experience and terrible coaching….not a recipe for success
This year will tell a lot
This really comes across as a lot of excuse making for Schoen. I just don't think it's wise to dispel the idea that Schoen just might not be good at evaluating and building an OL. Which is why I raised the point in the first place that OL should be considered a major issue attached to Schoen heading into 2024.
Facts….which they are…aren’t excuses….
If they didn’t have health issues and terrible coaching….then my opinion would be different
Give them a year of good health and good coaching…then we will see
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In comment 16513337 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16513330 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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If Jones gets injured & the Giants have to eat the $23 million on his ‘25 salary…
Oh boy. BBI would go nuclear.
I doubt it. The majority will go along with whatever they do. There will be initial anger, and then whomever they draft will be the greatest thing ever the following May.
I know that it can feel that way, but for most is less about "going along" and more about moving on.
If I can't fix it, I'm not going to invest in anger. (Aside from initial shock)
I think you can move on and still accept the people making the decisions are making bad decisions. I try to look at the situation as though I were looking at a team I didn't care about.
If you took the Giants' exact situation and put it on the Seahawks or Jaguars, I'd have no problem saying that team is a complete mess from ownership on down. Why should the Giants be any different?
I guess that I just enjoy the process of watching it all happen, have a few opinions and prepare for the season.
Once the team is set, Im done with the FO decisions and spend more energy on the season and the task at hand.
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squaring 7-10 with being "in a playoff hunt" is where you lose me but it doesnt matter.
i think getting to 8 or 9 wins with jones sucking is a better outcome for daboll than 7 or fewer wins but a good season for jones. do you disagree with that?
I think the Giants were technically eliminated from the playoffs week 16 last year. So a 7-win team could conceivably be in real contention week 17 or 18. Which avoids the empty seats in December scenario you referenced above.
So my rough guesses:
Playoffs = Definitely Back
7ish+ Wins = Likely Back
4-7ish Wins + some additional embarrassment = Likely Gone
0-4ish Wins = Definitely Gone
i think you are getting a little too caught up in numbers.
improvement = definitely back
stagnation = probably not back
regression = definitely not back
even 8 wins feels like stagnation to me since they showed they can do better than that with a worse roster in 2022.
8 wins could be a replay of last year except with a healthy gano to make the 40 yarder vs jets and enough leg to beat rams.