they all assume the Giants want to get out of Jones contract and therefore think the Giants would be unhappy if he plays well because that would make it harder for them to move on. The Giants goal is to win, they considered drafting a QB because doubts were raised if Jones was the guy, BUT if Jones reproves that he can win why would the Giants still want to move on?
and I agree 100%, Jones needs to be either really bad early so they can play Lock and get the wheels in motion to move on from Jones without risking injury or show marked improvement early so they can try and compete with him the next couple seasons until moving on from his contract is no longer painful.
Anything in between is the "treadmill of mediocrity" - I like that quote - which leads to QB hell.
but I think they have to build an offense that uses his strengths a bit. Or maybe easier to say - design the offense to shelter his weaknesses. He's tough, an accurate thrower and a great runner. Arm strength is good and he can make all the throws when he's comfy and confident.
But I think its fair to question is pre-snap reads and his ability to handle pressure. Seems to stare down his first read when he 'feels' the pressure and that leads to disaster most often. I think any QB struggles under pressure but I think Jones is worse than most. Think Seattle. He also hasn't been consistently healthy so protection has to improve (I think we addressed that well).
So lets protect him and find ways to get the ball out quick and into the hands of our playmakers (Nabers, Robinson, Hyatt, Slayton) while also providing some safety valves for him (Bellinger, Johnson, Singletary & maybe Tracy).
Jones isn't an elite QB. But protect him and give him weapons in a well designed offense and I think you can do enough on offense to win double digit games.
Beyond that, obviously plan to keep any and all options open to upgrade in the future. One idea I had was to trade out or back of next years first round to acquire an additional 1st in 2026 to assist in moving up then if needed. I know that's not an ideal plan perhaps but one to keep in the back pocket if nothing arises between now and the 2025 draft to find our guy.
they all assume the Giants want to get out of Jones contract and therefore think the Giants would be unhappy if he plays well because that would make it harder for them to move on. The Giants goal is to win, they considered drafting a QB because doubts were raised if Jones was the guy, BUT if Jones reproves that he can win why would the Giants still want to move on?
Because everyone except a few fanatical types assume that the best version of Jones will never be good enough to hold the Lombardi Trophy.
if you hate Jones this will 100% appeal to you. if you think the team as whole can be better with changes we have made this will be ok. if you think Jones will be better with an improved Oline and improved weapons then you will hate this commentary.
Overall I don't know who this chic is but she seems fixated on using jones as her main Giants talking points- which has fan appeal but she rarely provides much beyond a basic fan level observation. keep in mind while some major QB's played in the playoffs last year we also saw:
Baker Mayfield
Mason Rudolph
Joe Flacco
Will Levis
Jordan Love (who until last year had not really done much and even lost to the Giants last season)
We act like the league is all made up of SB MVP QB's except the Giants.
if you hate Jones this will 100% appeal to you. if you think the team as whole can be better with changes we have made this will be ok. if you think Jones will be better with an improved Oline and improved weapons then you will hate this commentary.
Overall I don't know who this chic is but she seems fixated on using jones as her main Giants talking points- which has fan appeal but she rarely provides much beyond a basic fan level observation. keep in mind while some major QB's played in the playoffs last year we also saw:
Baker Mayfield
Mason Rudolph
Joe Flacco
Will Levis
Jordan Love (who until last year had not really done much and even lost to the Giants last season)
We act like the league is all made up of SB MVP QB's except the Giants.
You can't get around the point she raised. Jones is dead last in the NFL among 38 quarterbacks in throwing the ball down the field in the last two seasons. Taylor and DeVito come in, and that changes.
they all assume the Giants want to get out of Jones contract and therefore think the Giants would be unhappy if he plays well because that would make it harder for them to move on. The Giants goal is to win, they considered drafting a QB because doubts were raised if Jones was the guy, BUT if Jones reproves that he can win why would the Giants still want to move on?
Because everyone except a few fanatical types assume that the best version of Jones will never be good enough to hold the Lombardi Trophy.
Kimes and Brett Kollman also discussed ownership's role in this...` 1 Hour 12-minute mark - ( New Window )
Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Nicke Foles, and Jeff Hostetler would like a word. Just saying.
Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
A great season , wins the NFC East and shuts all these assholes up!…this derangement and piling on is bullshit…. We’re not the fucking Jets searching for a QB since Namath ,and blowing top 5 picks on failed qbs every season.
all of those pundit concede that maybe Daniel Jones could go somewhere and become a winner - as they pointed out he's only 18 months older the Penix and has one less ACL tear. Thus conceding maybe Jones can win.
But if Jones plays to the level where the Giants are winning, the front office will be upset because they'll have to consider extending him. That argument combined with the other makes no sense!
all of those pundit concede that maybe Daniel Jones could go somewhere and become a winner - as they pointed out he's only 18 months older the Penix and has one less ACL tear. Thus conceding maybe Jones can win.
But if Jones plays to the level where the Giants are winning, the front office will be upset because they'll have to consider extending him. That argument combined with the other makes no sense!
That's not what they said. They talked about it being more likely he can become an adequate back-up on another team.
if you hate Jones this will 100% appeal to you. if you think the team as whole can be better with changes we have made this will be ok. if you think Jones will be better with an improved Oline and improved weapons then you will hate this commentary.
Overall I don't know who this chic is but she seems fixated on using jones as her main Giants talking points- which has fan appeal but she rarely provides much beyond a basic fan level observation. keep in mind while some major QB's played in the playoffs last year we also saw:
Baker Mayfield
Mason Rudolph
Joe Flacco
Will Levis
Jordan Love (who until last year had not really done much and even lost to the Giants last season)
We act like the league is all made up of SB MVP QB's except the Giants.
You can't get around the point she raised. Jones is dead last in the NFL among 38 quarterbacks in throwing the ball down the field in the last two seasons. Taylor and DeVito come in, and that changes.
I am not arguing the stuff sdaid, just she is a one trick pony about the Jones factor. I am not a Jones guy (wanted Maye) and we will be moving away from him after this season. I just don't think the Jones stuff is any more insightful than it is here. For some reason she has become the anti Jones/ anti Giants/ Anti Daboll etc crowds new love interest.
I don't think that at all. Best discussion by the pundit class about the NYG QB situation.
I admittedly started losing interest as soon as the guy started spitting out that they are going to suck and laughing at idea that Dabs was coach of the year. They might suck, but the dude has no idea. It is far from a given. The folks who claim to know exactly what's going to happen have zero clue what they're talking about.
In addition, my initial point wasn't just about these three, but all of the talking heads. You'd be hard-pressed (maybe Kiper) to find anyone who believes in Daniel Jones. Whether you agree with that or not.
In addition, my initial point wasn't just about these three, but all of the talking heads. You'd be hard-pressed (maybe Kiper) to find anyone who believes in Daniel Jones. Whether you agree with that or not.
is there is an implication that it's "Well by Daniel's standards." It's never actually playing like a good starting QB. He just has to not screw up massively and remain somewhat healthy to clear the bar.
If he has a bunch of typical Daniel games - 200 yards, 1 TD, all check downs, horrible pocket presence, 0.5 INTs, offense struggles to move the ball- that is good enough for ownership, given his other characteristics they love so much. It's kind of like a coaches son situation- he's going to keep the job unless he's a complete disaster.
As far as I can tell, she's had two post-draft discussions of the Giants and both have been pretty spot on. Why is she drawing some praise for her take? Because it's a more honest assessment than you will hear from ESPN or the NFL Network guys.
Weird reaction by you.
I guess I'll have to go back and listen to full thing
But I'm not sure what debate there is to have here. DJ is a bridge QB at this point. He's not the long term answer, but he is the current starter on a team who is still looking for that after failing to pry a pick away from the top 3 to get their guy. What alternative perspective is there, really?
That's a very good discussion. Again, take the emotion out of it as to what the preference was of what the Giants were going to do. There are a few things that stick out to me.
1. Drafting Nabers was not about Jones. It was about Nabers.
2. Jones is only 18 months older than Penix with one less ACL tear. That comment was pretty striking to me and made me to a double take.
3. The Giants want to move on from Jones. I think this idea gets muddled here with thinking drafting Nabers is a statement that the organization is all in on Jones.
Mina brings up a big issue though. How do the Giants get off this train? Either he's better than 2022 or he's so bad that it's easy to move off of. What if he's just good enough to go 8-9? Are the Giants then committing his 2025 cap number to Jones?
would have to play phenomenally well and stay healthy to be on the roster at this time next year IMO. Neither is likely. His ability to read defenses likely won't get any better going into his sixth season. It's pretty clear that Daboll and Kafka in 2022 told Jones to make one or two reads and then run. Some of that was undoubtedly because the OL was so bad, but also because they had no faith in his ability to make full-field reads on most plays. The rest of the league not surprisingly quickly adjusted. As others have noted, Taylor and DeVito, a UDFA rookie, had more success throwing down field with essentially the same cast than Jones.
Jones' running will be limited as he recovers from his torn ACL. He has also had a concussion and two serious neck injuries, problems that will likely occur again given how much he runs.
Jones is now at best a "bridge starter" for a year or two, and more likely a permanent journeyman like Lock, Darnold, Minshew, Taylor, etc. He'd have to show remarkable improvement to overcome that designation. As a Giants fan I certainly hope he can, but also acknowledge that is very unlikely to happen.
fact that the Giants tried to move up for Maye also proves that whether for performance or injury reasons, they are done with Jones. As Sean said, taking Nabers was not a statement that they are committed to Jones. It was simply about taking the player many people thought was the best WR, a position of dire need for the Giants.
want to eventually move on from Daniel Jones (which is not that big an assumption), I think John Mara has given one (or both) of them a few more years to turn this Giants franchise around. And if that includes a year (or two?) with Daniel Jones still at the helm, while the roster is being fortified and strengthened, so be it.
Bottom line: Doubtful either Schoen or Daboll would lose their job over Daniel Jones, but rather over the failure to right the Giants ship
they all assume the Giants want to get out of Jones contract and therefore think the Giants would be unhappy if he plays well because that would make it harder for them to move on. The Giants goal is to win, they considered drafting a QB because doubts were raised if Jones was the guy, BUT if Jones reproves that he can win why would the Giants still want to move on?
“Reproves” he can win? When has he proven it? LOL, he’s 22-36-1 as a starter, the high-water mark being 9-6-1 in 2022. Low bar indeed!
fact that the Giants tried to move up for Maye also proves that whether for performance or injury reasons, they are done with Jones. As Sean said, taking Nabers was not a statement that they are committed to Jones. It was simply about taking the player many people thought was the best WR, a position of dire need for the Giants.
Woah
Fact?
Because it was reported?
We offered what to a team that needed a QB more than us ?
We know the exact offer how?
The fact is that we did not draft a QB in the draft and we replaced our back up with a much less accomplished QB says what exactly?
want to eventually move on from Daniel Jones (which is not that big an assumption), I think John Mara has given one (or both) of them a few more years to turn this Giants franchise around. And if that includes a year (or two?) with Daniel Jones still at the helm, while the roster is being fortified and strengthened, so be it.
Bottom line: Doubtful either Schoen or Daboll would lose their job over Daniel Jones, but rather over the failure to right the Giants ship
I thought this was a rather mealy-mouthed panel that was preaching to the choir pretty much what the choir wanted to hear. They kind of lost me when one guy noted that one of the worst outcomes for the Giants would be if Jones did play really well so then they'd have to pay him going forward. I mean WTF; isn't having your QB play really well the goal here? One of them also claimed the Giants receivers are all slot guys. Wan'Dale but Slayton definitely isn't and Hyatt and Nabers are perfectly comfortable inside or out. In fact put Slayton and Hyatt outside and Wan'Dale and Malik in the slots and watch other teams scramble to get them all covered.
The stuff re Jones of course has been hashed and rehashed to death such that it is probably impossible to add anything much new or different. However the truth of the matter is that nobody knows how well Jones can or can't play given a competent OL and some real weapons because he's never had either. Eric noted that no or at least few analysts are supporting Jones. Well you know who is? The Giants themselves so maybe we should all just SFU for awhile and see how it actually plays out.
I liked the discussion. They considered Jones' current status and
his lack of ability to anticipate, or see the field. They also considered who he had to work with, the effect of his constantly being under siege, and if this had caused permanent damage to his willingness or ability to throw downfield.
Unlike most pundits, they did NOT make any absolute predictions/conclusions about Jones. They said he MIGHT continue to be terrible, or improve to mediocre, or he could improve enough to where he becomes a keeper. IMO, the future cannot be predicted and people who do it generally turn me off.
Actually they did make a prediction: Although the Giants have made inroads into improving the Oline and although they love Nabers, they said to expect another bad year because the Giants still don't have enough quality personnel. There was also no consensus of opinion on how good a coach Daboll is.
they all assume the Giants want to get out of Jones contract and therefore think the Giants would be unhappy if he plays well because that would make it harder for them to move on. The Giants goal is to win, they considered drafting a QB because doubts were raised if Jones was the guy, BUT if Jones reproves that he can win why would the Giants still want to move on?
Ironically Jones' only playoff game was leading the Giants to a win over a very overrated Minny team that decided to move on from their underperforming QB and "reach" for JJ McCarthy 1 season later.
I finally lost faith in Jones last year. For your own sake please recognize there isn't any way for us to improve the roster enough to win a Superbowl with him at QB. By all means if you want to believe this go for it but everyone else in the world sees it. This is why they think another average to good season would be a bad thing for the Giants... it delays the inevitable because Mara would 100% stop them from moving on. And no I don't believe the propaganda he isn't involve, he may stay that way mostly but he won't do it when it matters
I watched I laughed. It’s 3 people that agree. No one even attempts to paint another PoV. Not very insightful.
Why, because they didn’t tell you what you wanted to hear? I thought they were more than fair, addressed the lack of support Jones has had, and doubt that he can now become the QB he might have been with better support. If anything, I think they overstated how Jones could have been successful with a better cast.
I hate to break it to you, but in the NFL, the only people who still wonder if Jones can be the guy all work for the Giants. I will repeat this thought exercise:
Imagine Dwayne Haskins had the start of his career in DC like Jones had, a promising rookie year, followed by utter incompetence. Meanwhile, Commander fans keep harping in the bad coaching and poor cast as reasons for his struggles. Then with a coaching change, Haskins has a much more efficient season, and DC gives him the Jones contract. We would ALL be laughing our asses off.
Then take it one step further. In year 1 of that contract, Haskins is abysmal, worse than he’s ever been, but DC doesn’t draft his replacement. Who here isn’t in stitches?
I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Interesting discussion. To paraphrase Bill Parcells
you are what your stats say you are. Daniel Jones' stats say he's not a very good quarterback. He's being given a golden opportunity to change that perception this season, a chance many other QB's wouldn't have gotten in their sixth season.
Either he proves everyone wrong, or he proves that the excuses for him were just that....excuses. I just hope he's not given a seventh season if things don't go well.
I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Totally agree!!! They don't want him to play well.... Translated to we want to lose??? She isn't any better.....
The amount of beatings he has taken, health issues, lack of OL, weapons etc...he basically looked like a gunslinger with really high upside as a rookie. Really regressed and went conservative under Judge and Garrett for 2 seasons, then had a good first year with Daboll where he flashed a few things we had seen him do in the past while keeping the turnovers significantly down, ran a lot, etc....then it looked awful and he tore his knee.
Willing to give it one more half-year with a fresh OL and shiny top 10 receiver. But if he doesn't show a combination of his rookie year and 2022 out of the gate, it's clear he will never be "the guy."
Still think he can with the right recipe and an injury free season. Seems like Schoen and Daboll were fine with passing on the other QBs to see if they can salvage this.
doesn’t imply that he plays very well, but rather well enough that the Giants are tempted to double down on him longer. They even acknowledge that if Jones plays really well, that it’s a good problem to have.
What they are referring to is Jones repeating his 2022 (Kimes even mentioned it), well enough to coax the team to a WC berth, but not well enough to beat the better teams. Maybe the derangement is with the DJFC?
Schmeelk may be a mouth piece (i don't think he is) but he is a person who is actually still somewhat optimistic about Jones' ability.
I think he'd be very down on him if he thought Giants wouldn't be able to have a playoff type season with him at QB and some changes to OL and weaponry.
Jones doesn't have to play that well to stick around
does not have the talent to be a top tier talent. The worst place to be is paying for mediocrity. Mina is 100 percent correct. So many of you just don't want admit the truth. And then there is the fact that you can't accept the fact that this WOMAN was right about Jones all along. Right from day 1 when she made fun of Gettleman drafting him.
RE: Jones doesn't have to play that well to stick around
Schmeelk may be a mouth piece (i don't think he is) but he is a person who is actually still somewhat optimistic about Jones' ability.
I think he'd be very down on him if he thought Giants wouldn't be aoo harshlyble to have a playoff type season with him at QB and some changes to OL and weaponry.
Who signs Schmelk's paychecks?
I like Schmelk. However anyone who works for the organization will never criticize too harshly.
In addition, my initial point wasn't just about these three, but all of the talking heads. You'd be hard-pressed (maybe Kiper) to find anyone who believes in Daniel Jones. Whether you agree with that or not.
Wait are we really going by talking heads analysis instead of Daballs and Joe and Kafka? They could have easily signed another QB in FA they didnt, they could have easily drafted another QB if they liked one better, they didnt. Why dont we trust the actual experts instead of the talking heads? BTW whose the coach in Denver that said Dan could be a playoff winning QB -Sean Payton but Mina says lol
RE: Jones doesn't have to play that well to stick around
I feel like we are downplaying the Nabers pick a bit. He is going to change the entire offense.
The best wide receivers in the history of the position are barely worth 2 points a game. Malik Nabers, who is a great prospect, will not make up for a serious deficit at QB. Your argument sounds exactly like what people said about adding Barkley to a moribund attack in 2018, that he would revive the attack and make an aging Eli a better QB all by himself.
I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
It's pretty freaking funny watching people get tied up in knots. Some people are at the point they don't want Daniel Jones to play well. Too funny.......
Yup. A bunch of opinions that are no more valuable than anyone on BBI. Nothing we haven't heard repeatedly from the naysayers on BBI (and yet those of us who agree with Schoen and Daboll are called fanatical!).
Click-baiters got to pay their bills and there's no shortage of Giants fans with an insatiable appetite for anything negative. It's easy money.
Yup. A bunch of opinions that are no more valuable than anyone on BBI. Nothing we haven't heard repeatedly from the naysayers on BBI (and yet those of us who agree with Schoen and Daboll are called fanatical!).
Click-baiters got to pay their bills and there's no shortage of Giants fans with an insatiable appetite for anything negative. It's easy money.
The loud Giant fans are always wrong -Tried running Eli and Tom Coughlin out of town while everyone was trust in reeech. and many more examples thru the decades. The biggest flaw of the team has been the OL end of story.. It wasted Eli's prime and has crushed DJ potential. BUT Joe gets it and he and Daballs have addressed it.. They turned over the roster more talent and veteran presence and the coaching room.
I feel like we are downplaying the Nabers pick a bit. He is going to change the entire offense.
We are placing a ton of hopes and expectations on a guy who has yet to play a down in the NFL. Kind of seems unfair. If he gets hurt or busts, this could get ugly.
I feel like we are downplaying the Nabers pick a bit. He is going to change the entire offense.
The best wide receivers in the history of the position are barely worth 2 points a game. Malik Nabers, who is a great prospect, will not make up for a serious deficit at QB. Your argument sounds exactly like what people said about adding Barkley to a moribund attack in 2018, that he would revive the attack and make an aging Eli a better QB all by himself.
3. The Giants want to move on from Jones. I think this idea gets muddled here with thinking drafting Nabers is a statement that the organization is all in on Jones.
I don't think you can say that unequivocally. The Giants apparently considered moving on from Jones by having discussions to buy the Patriots draft slot. But it sounded like a soft offer where Schoen was trying to buy the spot with a coupon. And Wolf wasn't interested.
When that didn't materialize, it looked like the Giants were jubilant to draft Nabers and then let Jones know via text Jones they were bringing in more reinforcements for him.
And in the ensuing hour after that, more talented QB prospects than Jones were drafted - Penix #8, McCarthy #10, and Nix #12.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
Get over it already, Daniel Jones is the Giants starting QB unless he loses the job in camp or shortly thereafter. And by the way, it would be better for the team if he returned to his best form. I know it's a slow news cycle right now for football, but please, how many DJ threads can there be!?! He's not going anywhere!
And therefore, Schoen needs to be held to account if one or more of the QBs he passed on emerges as a star. The clock on his tenure needs to start ticking.
you cannot conclude that the Giants wanted to move on from Jones despite a mountain of evidence supporting this claim.
But you can conclude this as fact. lol. The internet is like a biosphere where you can view cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias live and in the wild.
Quote:
...And in the ensuing hour after that, more talented QB prospects than Jones were drafted - Penix #8, McCarthy #10, and Nix #12....
3. The Giants want to move on from Jones. I think this idea gets muddled here with thinking drafting Nabers is a statement that the organization is all in on Jones.
I don't think you can say that unequivocally. The Giants apparently considered moving on from Jones by having discussions to buy the Patriots draft slot. But it sounded like a soft offer where Schoen was trying to buy the spot with a coupon. And Wolf wasn't interested.
When that didn't materialize, it looked like the Giants were jubilant to draft Nabers and then let Jones know via text Jones they were bringing in more reinforcements for him.
And in the ensuing hour after that, more talented QB prospects than Jones were drafted - Penix #8, McCarthy #10, and Nix #12.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
Oh…so now the spin is a soft offer to continue the narrative that they never wanted to get rid of Jones
You have literally zero idea how any of these prospects will turn out…but keep spinning the BS to fit your narrative
Get over it already, Daniel Jones is the Giants starting QB unless he loses the job in camp or shortly thereafter. And by the way, it would be better for the team if he returned to his best form. I know it's a slow news cycle right now for football, but please, how many DJ threads can there be!?! He's not going anywhere!
Eric should charge posters for counseling services on Jones. It’s like a therapy session here.
Yup. A bunch of opinions that are no more valuable than anyone on BBI. Nothing we haven't heard repeatedly from the naysayers on BBI (and yet those of us who agree with Schoen and Daboll are called fanatical!).
Click-baiters got to pay their bills and there's no shortage of Giants fans with an insatiable appetite for anything negative. It's easy money.
Eh. I think it's deeply flawed to assume no one has more valuable insight than BBI. Dominique Foxworth played years in the league and was the president of the players union. He might know a bit about quarterbacks as a very good player, and he might know a thing about contracts and the business of.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
Huh? I think you have it twisted. Daniel Jones is the poster child of opportunity cost. Passing on opportunities to keep Jones installed as starter, simply because he cost a high first, has sapped the Giants of a lot of possible upside. Passing on Penix, JJM, and Nix, to retain Jones, is a disaster of opportunity cost. Those three prospects have much higher ceilings than Jones. That's opportunity cost.
3. The Giants want to move on from Jones. I think this idea gets muddled here with thinking drafting Nabers is a statement that the organization is all in on Jones.
I don't think you can say that unequivocally. The Giants apparently considered moving on from Jones by having discussions to buy the Patriots draft slot. But it sounded like a soft offer where Schoen was trying to buy the spot with a coupon. And Wolf wasn't interested.
When that didn't materialize, it looked like the Giants were jubilant to draft Nabers and then let Jones know via text Jones they were bringing in more reinforcements for him.
And in the ensuing hour after that, more talented QB prospects than Jones were drafted - Penix #8, McCarthy #10, and Nix #12.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
bw, I wanted to take McCarthy at 6. If I recall you did not think McCarthy was a lottery prospect. You definitely did not think Penix was. I don't recall your opinion on Nix, but I think you were on board in the 2nd round.
I have a tough time faulting Schoen if he shared your opinion on the QBs I mentioned above. Your theory on a soft Maye offer would hold more water if the Pats traded the pick to the Vikings.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
bw, I wanted to take McCarthy at 6. If I recall you did not think McCarthy was a lottery prospect. You definitely did not think Penix was. I don't recall your opinion on Nix, but I think you were on board in the 2nd round.
I have a tough time faulting Schoen if he shared your opinion on the QBs I mentioned above. Your theory on a soft Maye offer would hold more water if the Pats traded the pick to the Vikings.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
QB prospects can project to be better than Jones, and yet not be good enough to be worth passing on a projected elite WR.
The second part is what can be concluded to be the Giants thinking. The first part is unknown, but the undeniable fact is that ultimately they decided Nabers was too good to pass up.
The only dilemma the Giants face is where they find the QB to replace Jones. All signs point to them wanting to replace him.
3. The Giants want to move on from Jones. I think this idea gets muddled here with thinking drafting Nabers is a statement that the organization is all in on Jones.
I don't think you can say that unequivocally. The Giants apparently considered moving on from Jones by having discussions to buy the Patriots draft slot. But it sounded like a soft offer where Schoen was trying to buy the spot with a coupon. And Wolf wasn't interested.
When that didn't materialize, it looked like the Giants were jubilant to draft Nabers and then let Jones know via text Jones they were bringing in more reinforcements for him.
And in the ensuing hour after that, more talented QB prospects than Jones were drafted - Penix #8, McCarthy #10, and Nix #12.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
bw, I wanted to take McCarthy at 6. If I recall you did not think McCarthy was a lottery prospect. You definitely did not think Penix was. I don't recall your opinion on Nix, but I think you were on board in the 2nd round.
I have a tough time faulting Schoen if he shared your opinion on the QBs I mentioned above. Your theory on a soft Maye offer would hold more water if the Pats traded the pick to the Vikings.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
Not to mention it is not just is Jones > Any QB available, but whether Jones + Nabers + Filling other positions until you select a QB > QB at 6 + Lesser talent at other positions or QB at 6 + WR in Round 1 next year.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
Huh? I think you have it twisted. Daniel Jones is the poster child of opportunity cost. Passing on opportunities to keep Jones installed as starter, simply because he cost a high first, has sapped the Giants of a lot of possible upside. Passing on Penix, JJM, and Nix, to retain Jones, is a disaster of opportunity cost. Those three prospects have much higher ceilings than Jones. That's opportunity cost.
I was referring to the cost of his contract; it is guaranteed for next season, hence no additional opportunity cost. As opposed to spending a high 1st on a QB they may not have been sold on.
Having higher ceilings than Jones is a flawed way to evaluate the opportunity cost. You don't draft them because they are or will be better than Jones; you draft them because you think they can lead you to a SB. Anything else is misspent.
I wasn't saying Nabers is going to step in and be Jerry Rice. My point about "changing the entire offense" stands - who are the "best" receivers that Daniel Jones had had to play with in his career? I mean that sincerely - not trying to drum up some Jones argument.
The answer is....Darius Slayton? Wan'Dale looks the part and Hyatt seems like he can be really solid. But in 2019, Jones had Tate, Slayton, and Shepard. Slayton was his go to guy. 2020, pretty much the same. 2021...the same. 2022 they added Robinson and Hodgins which helped but come on now.
Nabers is the 6th pick of the draft. He is expected to have a Beckham-like effect on the offense. It should open things up for Jones if he has time. Nabers can play every WR position on the field.
That means that Robinson and Hyatt can be wide open a ton.
fact that the Giants tried to move up for Maye also proves that whether for performance or injury reasons, they are done with Jones. As Sean said, taking Nabers was not a statement that they are committed to Jones. It was simply about taking the player many people thought was the best WR, a position of dire need for the Giants.
Woah
Fact?
Because it was reported?
We offered what to a team that needed a QB more than us ?
We know the exact offer how?
The fact is that we did not draft a QB in the draft and we replaced our back up with a much less accomplished QB says what exactly?
Tyrod was turds in his post Bills career. Floundered with the Browns, Texans, Chargers. Consistently low QBR. Lock is a better option going forward because of his age and health history.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
If they like him to start in 2024 why wouldn't they like him to start in 2025?
Jones, even by his own low standards, was terrible in 2023 AND he tore his ACL. If he stays healthy and puts up a typical Jones year (20 total TDs, 6.7 YPA, offense averages around 20 PPG), why wouldn't he be back in 2025?
bw, I wanted to take McCarthy at 6. If I recall you did not think McCarthy was a lottery prospect. You definitely did not think Penix was. I don't recall your opinion on Nix, but I think you were on board in the 2nd round.
I have a tough time faulting Schoen if he shared your opinion on the QBs I mentioned above. Your theory on a soft Maye offer would hold more water if the Pats traded the pick to the Vikings.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
Let me give you an example of a team acting like they really want to move on from their QB. Not this soft, nuanced non-sense form Schoen.
Denver.
Wilson is a SB champion, multiple all pros & pro bowls, and a likely HoFamer. And a massive hit to the Broncos cap finances for the next year or two.
But Peyton, a great HC, offensive planner and QB developer, said he's had enough of Wilson. And he's ready to take his medicine now on the cap and find a new QB. So, he drafted Nix at #12 and has absolutely zero regrets about telling Wilson to not have the door hit him in the ass on the way out of Denver.
That's how real teams who want to move on from a real franchise QB act.
If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Quote:And you can't just throw quick passes all the time... Defenses will catch on pretty fast so a downfield game is a must.. Daniel Jones will have to launch it this year
if you hate Jones this will 100% appeal to you. if you think the team as whole can be better with changes we have made this will be ok. if you think Jones will be better with an improved Oline and improved weapons then you will hate this commentary.
Overall I don't know who this chic is but she seems fixated on using jones as her main Giants talking points- which has fan appeal but she rarely provides much beyond a basic fan level observation. keep in mind while some major QB's played in the playoffs last year we also saw:
Baker Mayfield
Mason Rudolph
Joe Flacco
Will Levis
Jordan Love (who until last year had not really done much and even lost to the Giants last season)
We act like the league is all made up of SB MVP QB's except the Giants.
You can't get around the point she raised. Jones is dead last in the NFL among 38 quarterbacks in throwing the ball down the field in the last two seasons. Taylor and DeVito come in, and that changes.
RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
bw, I wanted to take McCarthy at 6. If I recall you did not think McCarthy was a lottery prospect. You definitely did not think Penix was. I don't recall your opinion on Nix, but I think you were on board in the 2nd round.
I have a tough time faulting Schoen if he shared your opinion on the QBs I mentioned above. Your theory on a soft Maye offer would hold more water if the Pats traded the pick to the Vikings.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
Let me give you an example of a team acting like they really want to move on from their QB. Not this soft, nuanced non-sense form Schoen.
Denver.
Wilson is a SB champion, multiple all pros & pro bowls, and a likely HoFamer. And a massive hit to the Broncos cap finances for the next year or two.
But Peyton, a great HC, offensive planner and QB developer, said he's had enough of Wilson. And he's ready to take his medicine now on the cap and find a new QB. So, he drafted Nix at #12 and has absolutely zero regrets about telling Wilson to not have the door hit him in the ass on the way out of Denver.
That's how real teams who want to move on from a real franchise QB act.
Or despite scouting the majority of the QB class in person last year and spending a ton of time with most of the top prospects in the evaluation phase…they determined that only one player fit the criteria of what they were looking for
Any way to spin a situation negatively….you will find
Tell us more about the “tepid” offer we made for Maye….prime example
Terps - are you refusing to mention or believe that they just tried to trade up and draft a quarterback? Or do you somehow not think that happened?
They failed to do so, and their approach to the QBs in this draft bothered me for two reasons:
1. If you believe they tried to trade up for Maye, they laser focused on one guy and didn't have alternative options in a draft that provided them. If they need to fall in full bloom love with a QB to even consider drafting him they are going to be counting on hitting a home run in their next swing (whenever that happens), and then they're going to give that guy the too-long leash that Jones has gotten. It's generally a bad approach that is going to waste a lot of years.
2. If they assessed that Maye was worth trading up for but the other three weren't even worth drafting at 6 I think we have a QB evaluation problem. I'm not sure Maye was even a better prospect let alone that much better. But these guys paid Daniel Jones so it shouldn't surprise us that there's a QB evaluation problem.
bw, I wanted to take McCarthy at 6. If I recall you did not think McCarthy was a lottery prospect. You definitely did not think Penix was. I don't recall your opinion on Nix, but I think you were on board in the 2nd round.
I have a tough time faulting Schoen if he shared your opinion on the QBs I mentioned above. Your theory on a soft Maye offer would hold more water if the Pats traded the pick to the Vikings.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
Let me give you an example of a team acting like they really want to move on from their QB. Not this soft, nuanced non-sense form Schoen.
Denver.
Wilson is a SB champion, multiple all pros & pro bowls, and a likely HoFamer. And a massive hit to the Broncos cap finances for the next year or two.
But Peyton, a great HC, offensive planner and QB developer, said he's had enough of Wilson. And he's ready to take his medicine now on the cap and find a new QB. So, he drafted Nix at #12 and has absolutely zero regrets about telling Wilson to not have the door hit him in the ass on the way out of Denver.
That's how real teams who want to move on from a real franchise QB act.
That's a good point, but Payton has pelts on the wall (or a pelt), Schoen doesn't. I think it's clear that Schoen didn't value this QB class as much as others did. I was not a big fan of Nix's, but I thought his best landing spot was in Denver. It will be interesting to watch.
RE: RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
You wrote that Schoen could have thought Jones was better than many of these QB prospects. And revamping the OL and bringing in more firepower was a plan they trusted moving forward with Jones. Isn't that what I basically said, too?
BTW, a QB on a rookie contract isn't a cap albatross. So, we could have easily absorbed that investment.
That's not happening. I'd applaud it, but that's not how John Mara runs the Giants. Payton runs the Broncos and he's able to do what he wants. The Giants aren't that cutthroat.
In addition, my initial point wasn't just about these three, but all of the talking heads. You'd be hard-pressed (maybe Kiper) to find anyone who believes in Daniel Jones. Whether you agree with that or not.
Wait are we really going by talking heads analysis instead of Daballs and Joe and Kafka? They could have easily signed another QB in FA they didnt, they could have easily drafted another QB if they liked one better, they didnt. Why dont we trust the actual experts instead of the talking heads? BTW whose the coach in Denver that said Dan could be a playoff winning QB -Sean Payton but Mina says lol
Why question them?
Because they made a horrific decision to Franchise Barkley and sign Jones to a $160 million deal.
If you haven't noticed, the goodwill they built up in 2022 evaporated in 2023.
Or despite scouting the majority of the QB class in person last year and spending a ton of time with most of the top prospects in the evaluation phase…they determined that only one player fit the criteria of what they were looking for
Any way to spin a situation negatively….you will find
Tell us more about the “tepid” offer we made for Maye….prime example
What are we arguing about here? Aren't we basically agreeing on the outcome?
I said Schoen may have had interest in Maye if he could get his price. Let's call that Plan A.
When he couldn't get his price to buy the Pats' spot, he seemed to have no problem switching to Plan B, which was staying hitched to Jones and bringing in more players to help Jones.
Or despite scouting the majority of the QB class in person last year and spending a ton of time with most of the top prospects in the evaluation phase…they determined that only one player fit the criteria of what they were looking for
Any way to spin a situation negatively….you will find
Tell us more about the “tepid” offer we made for Maye….prime example
What are we arguing about here? Aren't we basically agreeing on the outcome?
I said Schoen may have had interest in Maye if he could get his price. Let's call that Plan A.
When he couldn't get his price to buy the Pats' spot, he seemed to have no problem switching to Plan B, which was staying hitched to Jones and bringing in more players to help Jones.
You mean like spinning and saying that we made a tepid offer to NE
Yup. A bunch of opinions that are no more valuable than anyone on BBI. Nothing we haven't heard repeatedly from the naysayers on BBI (and yet those of us who agree with Schoen and Daboll are called fanatical!).
Click-baiters got to pay their bills and there's no shortage of Giants fans with an insatiable appetite for anything negative. It's easy money.
How is one 10-minute discussion of Daniel Jones buried in a 90 minute-NFL discussion click bait?
What did they say that is so outlandish? Be specific.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
You wrote that Schoen could have thought Jones was better than many of these QB prospects. And revamping the OL and bringing in more firepower was a plan they trusted moving forward with Jones. Isn't that what I basically said, too?
BTW, a QB on a rookie contract isn't a cap albatross. So, we could have easily absorbed that investment.
That's not what I wrote, what I wrote is that I wouldn't make any conclusions on how Schoen felt about Jones vs any of the QB's available. He very well could have thought that any one or all 3 were better than Jones, but that none were good enough to take the Giants to the next level.
My comment about opportunity cost really wasn't about the cost of the rookie contract, but more about the value of the #6 pick. They (hopefully) got a very dynamic player at a position of dire need. The value there greatly exceeded the value of a middle of the road QB.
Im at the point we should change the name of the site
went to Mara and said he wanted to cut Jones prior to the 2024 draft he would still have a job? My opinion is that was not an option. Nor should it have been for many reasons.
Paton has the Payton card to play because Payton was not the coach when Paton traded for Russell Wilson. that is a tongue twister.
Schoen, presumptively with the approval/blessing of Daboll extended Jones. They likely don't have the luxury of moving on how Denver did.
I do think the Giants could have drafted a QB, if the right one was attainable, but I don't see a scenario where releasing Jones was on the table, and again, nor should it have been.
every damn day.. another 48 Daniel Jones threads..
Look around the board. There are threads on trading Slayton, Elijah Chatman, the 100 year best plays bracket, the 100 year commemorative patch, and more non-Jones related threads.
Few people are posting on them. You know why? Because no one cares. Giants fans, even the optimists, know that the story this year is the QB position, Schoen, Daboll, and Mara.
That's where the wind is blowing. And wait until the Giants get off to their customary 1-3 start...
RE: RE: Im at the point we should change the name of the site
every damn day.. another 48 Daniel Jones threads..
Look around the board. There are threads on trading Slayton, Elijah Chatman, the 100 year best plays bracket, the 100 year commemorative patch, and more non-Jones related threads.
Few people are posting on them. You know why? Because no one cares. Giants fans, even the optimists, know that the story this year is the QB position, Schoen, Daboll, and Mara.
That's where the wind is blowing. And wait until the Giants get off to their customary 1-3 start...
Bingo.
I hate these discussions, but we're here because everything hinges on the QB now. The rest of the roster looks competitive (not ideal, but competitive). But 90 percent of the fan base understands the QB situation is the main issue.
And whether or not you agree with it, the regime is tying their future to Jones or the possibility that Drew Lock can come to the rescue.
That's not happening. I'd applaud it, but that's not how John Mara runs the Giants. Payton runs the Broncos and he's able to do what he wants. The Giants aren't that cutthroat.
I get it, but then don't write that the Giants wanted to move on from Jones. They may have been willing to test the waters, but they weren't committed to it.
Schoen passed on Wilson, passed on a cheap deal for Fields, signed Lock and made sure he said the company line that he was hired as the back-up, couldn't make a deal to buy the Pats's spot, he passed on the other three big prospects, never drafted another QB prospect on day two or three, and is now bringing in UDFAs from Wabash college.
Seems pretty clear riding with the 10th highest paid player in the NFL for a sixth season was a high priority.
the best analogy is when the Giants shifted from Kent Graham to Kerry Collins.
Same team. But instantly, the entire offense changed when that switch was made. Giants had gone years without a QB passing for 300 yards in a game, and Collins did it right away.
I posted last week, this can go one of four ways for Jones:
- he gets hurt again
- he continues to struggle
- he plays like he did in 2022 as a mid-tier QB
- he surpasses his 2022 level
Those are basically the options here for him. But he's got guys like Nabers, Hyatt, Robinson, and Slayton who can instantly put six points on the board IF he will throw the damn ball to them DOWN THE FIELD.
RE: Im at the point we should change the name of the site
Nobody knows that and 90% on this site don’t share that view. Scary thing is that a few actually believe they no more about this team than the GM and HC. I guess if you post this stuff daily you expect people will believe you.
Nobody knows that and 90% on this site don’t share that view. Scary thing is that a few actually believe they no more about this team than the GM and HC. I guess if you post this stuff daily you expect people will believe you.
(1) The people who post on BBI are the vocal minority who take time to sign up and actually post their thoughts on an internet message board.
(2) Those still arguing on a BBI Daniel Jones thread are the vocal minorities of the minority. Those people posting on threads like this for the 1,000th time tend to have really strong views on Jones, one way or the other.
(3) If you put me in a room with 100 average Giants fans and I ask the question, "Are you concerned about the QB situation?" I'm pretty darn sure 90 percent of those fans will raise their hands (doesn't mean they have completely given up on Jones, but they are concerned).
(4) The goodwill Schoen and Daboll have had with fans is evaporating. You don't have to believe me or anyone else on BBI, just talk to any Giants fan. They may still like them, but they don't feel the same way they did 12 months ago. And some already want them gone.
Click-baiters got to pay their bills and there's no shortage of Giants fans with an insatiable appetite for anything negative. It's easy money.
How is one 10-minute discussion of Daniel Jones buried in a 90 minute-NFL discussion click bait?
What did they say that is so outlandish? Be specific.
In fairness to the panel, I didn't listen to it (I'm at school and was denied access) and simply went by the synopsis that was given, which didn't add anything new to the debate. And given that it was part of a 90-minute discussion, I wouldn't characterize it as clickbait. So my bad.
And I get that the central theme going into the 2024 season is what to expect from Daniel Jones so he is bound to dominate discussion and debate. What makes it so infuriating is that everything that can be said has already been said multiple times, but continues to be repeated. It generally starts with someone bashing Jones and it's followed by someone coming to his defense, with the same tired points being laid out ad infinitum by both sides. I've been guilty of it, too, as much as a try to control myself.
NYG needs to upgrade QB before they will can win a SB or be a yearly contender. That is true.
I'll argue that a) the majority of the league are in similar spot (whether they realize it or not) b) this does not mean that nothing else matters --like the team can't make progress or move the needle without QB change and c) that this hardly means that 2024 is pointless or the team can't compete.
My first statement does not translate to a,b, and c. Yet that's the contention by many here. It's a false narrative but supported by many, which is why no conversation is allowed to take place without turning it into a discussion about the QB.
That's not happening. I'd applaud it, but that's not how John Mara runs the Giants. Payton runs the Broncos and he's able to do what he wants. The Giants aren't that cutthroat.
I get it, but then don't write that the Giants wanted to move on from Jones. They may have been willing to test the waters, but they weren't committed to it.
Schoen passed on Wilson, passed on a cheap deal for Fields, signed Lock and made sure he said the company line that he was hired as the back-up, couldn't make a deal to buy the Pats's spot, he passed on the other three big prospects, never drafted another QB prospect on day two or three, and is now bringing in UDFAs from Wabash college.
Seems pretty clear riding with the 10th highest paid player in the NFL for a sixth season was a high priority.
Solid. Ignore what was reported and focus on what they do. Which means they believe he can play...
In comment 16514222 Giantsfan79 said:
[quote] they all assume the Giants want to get out of Jones contract and therefore think the Giants would be unhappy if he plays well because that would make it harder for them to move on. The Giants goal is to win, they considered drafting a QB because doubts were raised if Jones was the guy, BUT if Jones reproves that he can win why would the Giants still want to move on?
[/quote
They keep making stories up. They have no idea what the Giants feel about DJ. I'm sure the Gmen don't want him to go out there and bomb, that would be a ridiculous strategy on their part. This is the junk these so-called "experts" keep feeding us.
NYG needs to upgrade QB before they will can win a SB or be a yearly contender. That is true.
I'll argue that a) the majority of the league are in similar spot (whether they realize it or not) b) this does not mean that nothing else matters --like the team can't make progress or move the needle without QB change and c) that this hardly means that 2024 is pointless or the team can't compete.
My first statement does not translate to a,b, and c. Yet that's the contention by many here. It's a false narrative but supported by many, which is why no conversation is allowed to take place without turning it into a discussion about the QB.
Agreed. I've said for the past week or so the piling on regarding Jones is getting out of hand. However, I don't think this discussion was "piling on." I think it was an honest assessment of the situation. Heck, even one of the panelists said the Giants have done Jones no favors and have basically screwed him up (no different than what Mara has said).
I'm surprised by some of the reaction to this, but I'm starting to suspect based on Milton's comment that many of the people posting in this thread didn't actually watch the video.
RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
Because, like many statements on this board, it's not true.
The problem is we can't get around a few things that actually did happen:
(1) The Giants did "dumb down" the offense for Jones in 2022 during the period where he started to play better. We all saw it. When they went back to a more conventional offense in 2023, he struggled.
(2) Jones' reluctance to throw the ball down the field is statically proven. So are the results when Taylor and DeVito played with the same group.
(3) Jones hasn't thrown for three touchdowns in one game since 2019. That was five years ago. DeVito plays and he does it immediately.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
If they like him to start in 2024 why wouldn't they like him to start in 2025?
Jones, even by his own low standards, was terrible in 2023 AND he tore his ACL. If he stays healthy and puts up a typical Jones year (20 total TDs, 6.7 YPA, offense averages around 20 PPG), why wouldn't he be back in 2025?
You predicted all offseason what you thought the Giants would likely do - sign a cheap vet and run it back with Jones & DeVito. You were right. The Giants were locked into Jones contract in 2024.
The big change is the Giants aren't locked into Jones deal in 2025.
RE: RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
Because, like many statements on this board, it's not true.
it is true. Daboll and Kafka designed an offense around this limitation. Please show me where Jones ever consistently read the whole field. He's never done it on a consistent basis his entire career.
I expect the conversation to shift away from Jones and towards management by the end of this calendar year. Here's a realistic scenario:
- Giants are 4-8 around Thanksgiving
- Jones is injured, Lock and DeVito have both played but failed to distinguish themselves
- Dak and Tua have new contracts
- College QB class isn't exceeding expectations
People are going to want to know what the plan is at QB, and why the situation was allowed to atrophy to this point.
This isn't about Jones anymore.
RE: RE: Jones doesn't have to play that well to stick around
So, your statement about Jones not needing to play well to stick around is a complete alternate reality.
But it's not, it's based on 2022 where he didn't play great and yet was awarded a contract as if he had played great.
Sure, the Giants supposedly tried to trade for Maye but that doesn't mean they would absolutely try to replace Jones if he puts up another season similar in production to 2022. They might again propose a trade for one particular prospect that they adore, but will they pursue other avenues if that one get blocked, unlike what they did this offseason? There's no reason right now to believe they would.
RE: RE: RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
Because, like many statements on this board, it's not true.
it is true. Daboll and Kafka designed an offense around this limitation. Please show me where Jones ever consistently read the whole field. He's never done it on a consistent basis his entire career.
You wouldn't know what reading the whole field means if the origin of species depended on it!
I expect the conversation to shift away from Jones and towards management by the end of this calendar year. Here's a realistic scenario:
- Giants are 4-8 around Thanksgiving
- Jones is injured, Lock and DeVito have both played but failed to distinguish themselves
- Dak and Tua have new contracts
- College QB class isn't exceeding expectations
People are going to want to know what the plan is at QB, and why the situation was allowed to atrophy to this point.
This isn't about Jones anymore.
That was the point of my November article about the risk of tripling down on Jones. The article really wasn't about Jones per se but the inherent risk to Schoen and Daboll. For better or worse, they are taking a huge risk here. Mara can tell them privately "they're safe" but I'm sure he he told Joe Judge the same thing.
Where you and I differ it I do believe there is a legitimate reason to take Nabers over Penix. However, by doing so, the options are running out.
I expect the conversation to shift away from Jones and towards management by the end of this calendar year. Here's a realistic scenario:
- Giants are 4-8 around Thanksgiving
- Jones is injured, Lock and DeVito have both played but failed to distinguish themselves
- Dak and Tua have new contracts
- College QB class isn't exceeding expectations
People are going to want to know what the plan is at QB, and why the situation was allowed to atrophy to this point.
This isn't about Jones anymore.
That will pave the way to Belichick if it's that bleak. I think that would be the Mara pivot. As Lombardi says, there comes a time where owners need to buy credibility.
RE: RE: RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
Because, like many statements on this board, it's not true.
The problem is we can't get around a few things that actually did happen:
(1) The Giants did "dumb down" the offense for Jones in 2022 during the period where he started to play better. We all saw it. When they went back to a more conventional offense in 2023, he struggled.
(2) Jones' reluctance to throw the ball down the field is statically proven. So are the results when Taylor and DeVito played with the same group.
(3) Jones hasn't thrown for three touchdowns in one game since 2019. That was five years ago. DeVito plays and he does it immediately.
To me it seems like the root cause really does come down to Sy's remark in his draft profile that Jones doesn't seem to have a quick mind. It may not be staggeringly bad and it can be mitigated -- we're probably talking about seeing things just a fraction of a second too late.
the other thing that a lot of Giants fans don't want to consider true is this: Daniel Jones may be so broken that he's the third best QB on this team now.
I'm not saying that is the case. But I would not discount it at this point. You can break a QB mentally and physically.
Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
I expect the conversation to shift away from Jones and towards management by the end of this calendar year. Here's a realistic scenario:
- Giants are 4-8 around Thanksgiving
- Jones is injured, Lock and DeVito have both played but failed to distinguish themselves
- Dak and Tua have new contracts
- College QB class isn't exceeding expectations
People are going to want to know what the plan is at QB, and why the situation was allowed to atrophy to this point.
This isn't about Jones anymore.
That will pave the way to Belichick if it's that bleak. I think that would be the Mara pivot. As Lombardi says, there comes a time where owners need to buy credibility.
I'd be surprised if they went after Belichick. If they did it would be infuriating...why didn't they just do it after 2023???
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
Huh? I think you have it twisted. Daniel Jones is the poster child of opportunity cost. Passing on opportunities to keep Jones installed as starter, simply because he cost a high first, has sapped the Giants of a lot of possible upside. Passing on Penix, JJM, and Nix, to retain Jones, is a disaster of opportunity cost. Those three prospects have much higher ceilings than Jones. That's opportunity cost.
I was referring to the cost of his contract; it is guaranteed for next season, hence no additional opportunity cost. As opposed to spending a high 1st on a QB they may not have been sold on.
Having higher ceilings than Jones is a flawed way to evaluate the opportunity cost. You don't draft them because they are or will be better than Jones; you draft them because you think they can lead you to a SB. Anything else is misspent.
To your first point: Opportunity cost is not how much you pay for something (in money or material). Opportunity cost is about missed opportunity (lost opportunity) because you have pursued a failed or failing strategy. The Giants, as an example, have passed on other opportunities to upgrade the position, because of the extended scholarship given to Daniel Jones.
To your second point, I think you are still unclear about the concept. You say, Having higher ceilings than Jones is a flawed way to evaluate the opportunity cost. Higher ceiling is what it's all about. The aim in the NFL is to win a Super Bowl, or more than one. That's it. Daniel Jones has been in the league 5 years and we now have a hardened idea of what his ceiling is. Look at players as probability vectors. The likelihood that Daniel Jones will ever be a championship QB is an extremely low probability, because we have NFL data that tells us he isn't very good. Plus his floor is pretty bad too as 2023 has shown us. At this moment in time, Penix, JJM and Nix have higher probabilities to become championship QBs. And that's the goal. And their floors are likely not worse than Jones' floor. So passing on QBs with higher Super Bowl probabilities for a QB with a known low Super Bowl probability, is a clear-cut example of an opportunity cost.
the other thing that a lot of Giants fans don't want to consider true is this: Daniel Jones may be so broken that he's the third best QB on this team now.
I'm not saying that is the case. But I would not discount it at this point. You can break a QB mentally and physically.
If everyone wants to sugar coat it that poor Dannel is "broken" by all means if it means we can finally be rid of this albatross. However, if you look at his draft profile, all of these issues were with him when he came out of college after 4 years tutelage by a guy who was a qb coach and many of the same excuses were proffered.
the other thing that a lot of Giants fans don't want to consider true is this: Daniel Jones may be so broken that he's the third best QB on this team now.
I'm not saying that is the case. But I would not discount it at this point. You can break a QB mentally and physically.
He may be broken, I don't know. Even if he is, the truth is that the Giants drafted a day 3/UDFA level talent #6 overall in 2019, and then paid him after four seasons of poor football. They did so because the owner likes him.
"The Maras want to win, but they don't try to win."
I know people disagree with me on this, but Daniel Jones looked like a different QB to me in 2019 than he did by the time Joe Judge left.
Regardless, the same basic issue has existed since the completion of his rookie season: he doesn't throw TD passes.
He cut down on the mistakes, but the TDs he was throwing his rookie season went away too. Many have argued the two are intimately tied together. Probably. But it is what it is.
That's not happening. I'd applaud it, but that's not how John Mara runs the Giants. Payton runs the Broncos and he's able to do what he wants. The Giants aren't that cutthroat.
I get it, but then don't write that the Giants wanted to move on from Jones. They may have been willing to test the waters, but they weren't committed to it.
Schoen passed on Wilson, passed on a cheap deal for Fields, signed Lock and made sure he said the company line that he was hired as the back-up, couldn't make a deal to buy the Pats's spot, he passed on the other three big prospects, never drafted another QB prospect on day two or three, and is now bringing in UDFAs from Wabash college.
Seems pretty clear riding with the 10th highest paid player in the NFL for a sixth season was a high priority.
100%, IMO, all this talk, JS stinks and screwed up by not getting a QB in the draft, is wrong. We on this board have to come to the realization that the Giant brain thrust likes, I repeat, likes DJ. They, the pros, are aware DJ could not operate under awful conditions they put him in, now are trying to correct it. With a better surrounding cast, they expect much improved play. To me every move they made points in the direction. Now, if play doesn't improve maybe they're in hot water. Right now, this is the plan, maybe they know more about DJ than we do.
the other thing that a lot of Giants fans don't want to consider true is this: Daniel Jones may be so broken that he's the third best QB on this team now.
I'm not saying that is the case. But I would not discount it at this point. You can break a QB mentally and physically.
Pat Kirwan mentioned during his radio show last week that he was told by Rams staff that they were blitzing Goff at every practice and were trying to destroy his confidence. It was just an aside, didn’t discuss a motive, but it made me wonder if Wink engaged in similar shenanigans given his pride in the defense kicking the offense’s @ss during practice.
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
Because, like many statements on this board, it's not true.
it is true. Daboll and Kafka designed an offense around this limitation. Please show me where Jones ever consistently read the whole field. He's never done it on a consistent basis his entire career.
Maybe they designed that offense around the horrendous OL, and mediocre WRs.
That's not happening. I'd applaud it, but that's not how John Mara runs the Giants. Payton runs the Broncos and he's able to do what he wants. The Giants aren't that cutthroat.
I get it, but then don't write that the Giants wanted to move on from Jones. They may have been willing to test the waters, but they weren't committed to it.
Schoen passed on Wilson, passed on a cheap deal for Fields, signed Lock and made sure he said the company line that he was hired as the back-up, couldn't make a deal to buy the Pats's spot, he passed on the other three big prospects, never drafted another QB prospect on day two or three, and is now bringing in UDFAs from Wabash college.
Seems pretty clear riding with the 10th highest paid player in the NFL for a sixth season was a high priority.
100%, IMO, all this talk, JS stinks and screwed up by not getting a QB in the draft, is wrong. We on this board have to come to the realization that the Giant brain thrust likes, I repeat, likes DJ. They, the pros, are aware DJ could not operate under awful conditions they put him in, now are trying to correct it. With a better surrounding cast, they expect much improved play. To me every move they made points in the direction. Now, if play doesn't improve maybe they're in hot water. Right now, this is the plan, maybe they know more about DJ than we do.
It is not clear that JS and BD like Daniel Jones. There are plenty of possible alternate explanations for deciding to pass on Penix, JJM, and Nix. Here's one. They may have been warned by Mara that they will get one shot at a highly-drafted QB and unless they have love for the prospect, they shouldn't bother. And that's how you pass on a QB who you might think is better than Daniel Jones, but not good enough. Great being the enemy of good.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
Huh? I think you have it twisted. Daniel Jones is the poster child of opportunity cost. Passing on opportunities to keep Jones installed as starter, simply because he cost a high first, has sapped the Giants of a lot of possible upside. Passing on Penix, JJM, and Nix, to retain Jones, is a disaster of opportunity cost. Those three prospects have much higher ceilings than Jones. That's opportunity cost.
I was referring to the cost of his contract; it is guaranteed for next season, hence no additional opportunity cost. As opposed to spending a high 1st on a QB they may not have been sold on.
Having higher ceilings than Jones is a flawed way to evaluate the opportunity cost. You don't draft them because they are or will be better than Jones; you draft them because you think they can lead you to a SB. Anything else is misspent.
To your first point: Opportunity cost is not how much you pay for something (in money or material). Opportunity cost is about missed opportunity (lost opportunity) because you have pursued a failed or failing strategy. The Giants, as an example, have passed on other opportunities to upgrade the position, because of the extended scholarship given to Daniel Jones.
To your second point, I think you are still unclear about the concept. You say, Having higher ceilings than Jones is a flawed way to evaluate the opportunity cost. Higher ceiling is what it's all about. The aim in the NFL is to win a Super Bowl, or more than one. That's it. Daniel Jones has been in the league 5 years and we now have a hardened idea of what his ceiling is. Look at players as probability vectors. The likelihood that Daniel Jones will ever be a championship QB is an extremely low probability, because we have NFL data that tells us he isn't very good. Plus his floor is pretty bad too as 2023 has shown us. At this moment in time, Penix, JJM and Nix have higher probabilities to become championship QBs. And that's the goal. And their floors are likely not worse than Jones' floor. So passing on QBs with higher Super Bowl probabilities for a QB with a known low Super Bowl probability, is a clear-cut example of an opportunity cost.
I see your point, but look at it from Schoen’s POV - if he passes on Nabers and takes a QB he thinks is a slight upgrade over Jones, he’s just cost himself 3 years to see if that QB can be any good. In that case, the greater likelihood is that the next GM is picking the next QB.
Schoen is kicking the can down the road a bit. Unless the right QB drops in his lap, build the rest of the team, THEN take more risks at the QB position.
McCarthy, Penix, and Nix weren't even considered 1st round talents a couple of months before the draft. QB desperate teams may have forced those picks.
In reality, the entire NFL can't scout QBs worth shit. The odds are one or two of Williams, Daniels, and Maye will bust. And the odds are one of of Penix, McCarthy, and Nix will end up being pretty good.
But taking Nabers (more of a sure thing as a true "blue chip" talent) is defensible.
Let me caution you on this. This Jones saga is never short on excuses. Hell, even before the draft, Schoen basically granted Jones immunity by saying that the OL was really to blame for the 2023 struggle the team had on offense. Which could easily be construed as Schoen's version of "we've done everything to screw this kid up..."
We enter 2024 with the following: Jones coming off an injury, revamped OL, no Barkley, no Waller (likely), a high drafted, rookie WR, an unproven WR group overall, new lead RB, etc.
So, if Jones struggles early and often, there are going to be a lot of places to divert blame away from Jones.
RE: RE: RE: Im at the point we should change the name of the site
And whether or not you agree with it, the regime is tying their future to Jones or the possibility that Drew Lock can come to the rescue.
In other words, it's a big deal.
This. There should be no more question about letting Schoen and Daboll "pick their QB." They already did. If signing Jones to that contract is seen as a mistake, it is an unforced error on Schoen and Daboll (unless you believe it was mandated by Mara which I don't).
Schoen is kicking the can down the road a bit. Unless the right QB drops in his lap, build the rest of the team, THEN take more risks at the QB position.
So when the rest of the roster is ready to win, are you suggesting a) the team go through their championship window with a rookie? or b) when all the other pieces are in place, you select the QB in that draft (forcing the pick)?
"Build the rest of the team and then get the QB" is another way of saying "When you need the QB, take the best one available when you are on the clock in the year you need him."
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Thanks for sharing, Eric
Schoen is kicking the can down the road a bit. Unless the right QB drops in his lap, build the rest of the team, THEN take more risks at the QB position.
So when the rest of the roster is ready to win, are you suggesting a) the team go through their championship window with a rookie? or b) when all the other pieces are in place, you select the QB in that draft (forcing the pick)?
"Build the rest of the team and then get the QB" is another way of saying "When you need the QB, take the best one available when you are on the clock in the year you need him."
This is an important discussion.
There is a legit thought process even in the draft community about building up the team first before "wasting" the rookie-deal QB years with a bad roster.
However, as you point out, how likely is an inexperience QB going to be able to lead a team to a championship? Mahomes is an outlier.
It is not clear that JS and BD like Daniel Jones. There are plenty of possible alternate explanations for deciding to pass on Penix, JJM, and Nix. Here's one. They may have been warned by Mara that they will get one shot at a highly-drafted QB and unless they have love for the prospect, they shouldn't bother. And that's how you pass on a QB who you might think is better than Daniel Jones, but not good enough. Great being the enemy of good.
Fair enough.
But it's just as feasible that Schoen (and Daboll) believes that 2023 was less about Jones and more about the other parts because we actually have a record of Schoen saying that.
And they believe that if they can fix those other parts, they can build on Jones, V2022. In other words, 2024 will be giving Jones a second crack at playing without training wheels.
All of this makes me ill. But I'm in a different space with this than many because I believe Schoen is not merely following direct orders from General John.
McCarthy, Penix, and Nix weren't even considered 1st round talents a couple of months before the draft. QB desperate teams may have forced those picks.
In reality, the entire NFL can't scout QBs worth shit. The odds are one or two of Williams, Daniels, and Maye will bust. And the odds are one of of Penix, McCarthy, and Nix will end up being pretty good.
But taking Nabers (more of a sure thing as a true "blue chip" talent) is defensible.
Yes. I love Nabers as a prospect. But I love him a lot more with a top QB. Feels like a luxury pick for the Giants. That's why I say, if one of those next 3 QBs pans out, then we have to take a long hard look at Schoen's tenure. KOC and Payton aren't exactly slouches.
McCarthy, Penix, and Nix weren't even considered 1st round talents a couple of months before the draft. QB desperate teams may have forced those picks.
In reality, the entire NFL can't scout QBs worth shit. The odds are one or two of Williams, Daniels, and Maye will bust. And the odds are one of of Penix, McCarthy, and Nix will end up being pretty good.
But taking Nabers (more of a sure thing as a true "blue chip" talent) is defensible.
Yes. I love Nabers as a prospect. But I love him a lot more with a top QB. Feels like a luxury pick for the Giants. That's why I say, if one of those next 3 QBs pans out, then we have to take a long hard look at Schoen's tenure. KOC and Payton aren't exactly slouches.
Didn’t KOC miss the playoffs last year and lose to a Daniel Jones led team? Maybe a little success is needed before crowning him, no?
if you hate Jones this will 100% appeal to you. if you think the team as whole can be better with changes we have made this will be ok. if you think Jones will be better with an improved Oline and improved weapons then you will hate this commentary.
Overall I don't know who this chic is but she seems fixated on using jones as her main Giants talking points- which has fan appeal but she rarely provides much beyond a basic fan level observation. keep in mind while some major QB's played in the playoffs last year we also saw:
Baker Mayfield
Mason Rudolph
Joe Flacco
Will Levis
Jordan Love (who until last year had not really done much and even lost to the Giants last season)
We act like the league is all made up of SB MVP QB's except the Giants.
Goff was suppose to just be a stop gap in Detroit and Hooker was to be the successor. Now he is the "highest paid" QB ...
Jones has to find a way to trust his OL again and reset his internal clock regarding in regards to pocket presence. At his best so far he actually as spreaded the ball around because he has had no true #1. Waller, Engram, Tate and Golladay were suppose to be the lead "dawg" ... Slayton has been the most consistent "leading" WR for a few years now. Slayton is not a true #1.
Jones can get the job done with a good team. Complimentary football ... Let's see what happens with a competent OL and a WR corp that has all the roles truly filled. Not 2s and 3s trying to be 1s and 2s. Actual run blocking TEs to assist the OLs.
Mario and Jim Kelly could not do it all alone. It was not until Peyton had a complete team he won a SB.
Jones may need to be replaced but with a decent supporting cast he has a punchers can.
RE: RE: Im at the point we should change the name of the site
every damn day.. another 48 Daniel Jones threads..
Jones is the 10th highest paid player in the NFL and eats up 19% of our 2024 cap as the QB.
He can't stay healthy. And when he has been healthy, the results have mostly been below average.
And now we are in chapter six of the Jones Experience.
What the hell is more interesting than that?
Really we are in chapter 10/11 in the OL saga. 2012 was the last year we had a "viable" OL. In 2013 we draft rookie Justin Pugh, I'm just saying .... Looking back at the starting OL over the years is disheartening.
Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
You're talking two different things here, let's not confuse them. Giving the contract was a mistake. But as far as the running back with Jones comment goes, what exactly was the championship solution out there for them? Over drafting another QB? Sure, that's we got here, let's try it again. Russ Wilson? Please.
RE: RE: RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
It’s about getting value for your picks. You can get a guy who’s a bit below value if you have a great need or it’s a QB. But you can’t pass up top talent for someone who isn’t in the same ballpark value wise. That seemed like what this last draft told us. Those other three QB weren’t good enough as they saw them. And we know they would have taken one if it was one they liked.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
They don’t believe this. More made up shit from the poster. Do you really think a GM and HC would strap their careers on a QB who is a one read QB?
Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
You're talking two different things here, let's not confuse them. Giving the contract was a mistake. But as far as the running back with Jones comment goes, what exactly was the championship solution out there for them? Over drafting another QB? Sure, that's we got here, let's try it again. Russ Wilson? Please.
The plan was already in place when Schoen arrived.
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Taylor (cheap)
'24: Draft pick (cheap)
Instead, it's been:
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Jones/Taylor/DeVito (expensive)
'24: Jones/Lock/DeVito (expensive)
"Build the roster and then get the QB" is not a thing for a very good reason: good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired.
The Giants get this wrong on both ends of the QB life cycle:
1. They have to be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect
2. Once the prospect is drafted they give him a very long leash
That is deeply flawed resource management in today's NFL.
This is contradictory. You claim "good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired" yet you fault the Giants for allegedly having to "be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect."
The Giants seem to agree with your assessment that good QBs aren't plentiful, as they chose a top WR prospect over what they felt was the 4th QB in this draft. Yet you also criticize them for not drafting a QB they don't love, just to draft a QB.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
John Mara was stopped in the middle of this joyous Giants locker room and marveled at the way his franchise quarterback performed.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Mara laughed when it was suggested that he got the succession plan for Eli right (yes, with former GM Dave Gettleman’s help) and said: “Hey I can’t screw up everything, I gotta get something right.”
Quote:
Kid brother Chris Mara: “We got somebody going forward.”
Asked what he thought of his quarterback, Steve Tisch smiled and said: “The world.”
"Build the roster and then get the QB" is not a thing for a very good reason: good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired.
The Giants get this wrong on both ends of the QB life cycle:
1. They have to be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect
2. Once the prospect is drafted they give him a very long leash
That is deeply flawed resource management in today's NFL.
This is contradictory. You claim "good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired" yet you fault the Giants for allegedly having to "be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect."
The Giants seem to agree with your assessment that good QBs aren't plentiful, as they chose a top WR prospect over what they felt was the 4th QB in this draft. Yet you also criticize them for not drafting a QB they don't love, just to draft a QB.
I think you've got to keep trying until you find one. The league is set up where the benefit of finding the quarterback is greater than it's ever been, but the penalty for missing on a prospect is smaller than it's ever been. I would keep trying, and when you find the guy you pay him.
The Giants don't seem to feel like they need to try very hard.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
This front office paid Jones. They also thought Maye was so much better than the other 3 he was worth trading for, but the others weren't worth drafting at 6.
I'd be reevaluating the grading process if I were them.
but I don't know that you're doing that in a draft with 6 picks, with the #6 pick. If they don't have high grades on the QB, I'd much rather a low risk, high ceiling WR like Nabers at #6 than the #4 QB in the draft that they aren't that high on
Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
You're talking two different things here, let's not confuse them. Giving the contract was a mistake. But as far as the running back with Jones comment goes, what exactly was the championship solution out there for them? Over drafting another QB? Sure, that's we got here, let's try it again. Russ Wilson? Please.
The plan was already in place when Schoen arrived.
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Taylor (cheap)
'24: Draft pick (cheap)
Instead, it's been:
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Jones/Taylor/DeVito (expensive)
'24: Jones/Lock/DeVito (expensive)
Great job, guys!
Terps --this is utter nonsense. What draft pick were they going to draft on 24? Unless they somehow would have had a top 3 pick --that wasn't happening. They had their chance. Clearly they didn't see QBs 4 - 6 as answers.
The difference between your two plans here is the DJ contract. But neither plan yields us an answer to the QB position.
If they didn't see picking one of Penix, McCarthy, or Nix at #6 as a viable alternative, why does anyone think they're going to be in position to draft a quarterback in 2025???
That's why some of us are saying Jones might not be going anywhere.
Having some cheap, mediocre QBs with upside is an answer. You can spend more on your roster and you can find guys who are good fits with your talent/scheme. And maybe one of then pops. QB is a very unpredictable position, in both the boom and bust directions
Obviously this is not as good as having a great QB. But the answer we chose is expensive, mediocre, with no upside. That is a real bad answer.
There may not be somebody. We literally didn't know who they were going to draft this year the day of the draft. So no one anticipating what the options will be in 25.
If they didn't see picking one of Penix, McCarthy, or Nix at #6 as a viable alternative, why does anyone think they're going to be in position to draft a quarterback in 2025???
That's why some of us are saying Jones might not be going anywhere.
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
Jones was the same cap hit this year whether starting or holding a clipboard. The money that went to sign Drew Lock could have been earmarked for the top QB available at #6.
That's an exit plan the Giants passed on and it's not at all clear a more attractive one is going to present itself for 2025.
I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Anyone who says "xxxx derangement syndrome" is automatically a fucking idiot. But to think that's the "single stupidest line" in sports history really drives home how fucking clueless you are.
Yeah, paying DJ would be a fucking disaster. Because he will NEVER be consistently good, even if he somehow catches lightning in a bottle and someone stick a horseshoe up his ass for a season resulting in like, idk, 4000 yards and 30 TDs (not even crazy numbers)
If they didn't see picking one of Penix, McCarthy, or Nix at #6 as a viable alternative, why does anyone think they're going to be in position to draft a quarterback in 2025???
That's why some of us are saying Jones might not be going anywhere.
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
But I'm not asking the question in the context of Jones being here. I'm just talking about how the Giants approach drafting a QB.
If those three guys aren't good enough for them to draft at #6 why do we think they will draft one next year? The QB options available probably aren't going to be as good, according to everything you hear. And even if they are, who is the guy that will generate the full bloom love necessary for them to make the jump? Quinn Ewers? Carson Beck? It's possible, but the odds seem lower this year than next.
I think it plays out how Jerry said above. Why exercise the "out" in Jones's contact when there's no one worth doing it for?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
They don’t believe this. More made up shit from the poster. Do you really think a GM and HC would strap their careers on a QB who is a one read QB?
lol of course they wouldn't, which is wyhy they tried to get rid of him this year.
they HAD to pay him and see if he could grow after his first year with dabs. he failed miserably.
I cannot understand how someone could watch 6 fucking years of this QB and still have such an attachment to him. it's so bizarre
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
Jones was the same cap hit this year whether starting or holding a clipboard. The money that went to sign Drew Lock could have been earmarked for the top QB available at #6.
That's an exit plan the Giants passed on and it's not at all clear a more attractive one is going to present itself for 2025.
Earmarked?
Huh?
You do realize that the draft picks salaries are basically pre determined
Nabers or a QB…..the salary is pretty much the same
Had the Giants tagged Jones, I think McCarthy is a Giant right now. I think the contract mattered. You, Sy & christian were right.
I won't take credit - I talked myself out of it by the time the draft rolled around. That Thursday morning I was pretty sure they'd grab a QB. The Nabers pick was the most disappointing moment I've had as a fan since 2018. It was like reliving the Barkley pick. That's what I get for being an optimist with this group of people running the team.
If the contact mattered they're even dumber than I thought. It's clear they just don't get it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If Jones can't read defenses like is constantly said why wouldn't
Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
They don’t believe this. More made up shit from the poster. Do you really think a GM and HC would strap their careers on a QB who is a one read QB?
lol of course they wouldn't, which is wyhy they tried to get rid of him this year.
they HAD to pay him and see if he could grow after his first year with dabs. he failed miserably.
I cannot understand how someone could watch 6 fucking years of this QB and still have such an attachment to him. it's so bizarre
They tried to get rid of him? Never saw it, please post.
I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Anyone who says "xxxx derangement syndrome" is automatically a fucking idiot. But to think that's the "single stupidest line" in sports history really drives home how fucking clueless you are.
Yeah, paying DJ would be a fucking disaster. Because he will NEVER be consistently good, even if he somehow catches lightning in a bottle and someone stick a horseshoe up his ass for a season resulting in like, idk, 4000 yards and 30 TDs (not even crazy numbers)
Sad thing is if he put up those numbers this team would want to retire his number on the spot. When in reality that is the level he needs to perform at to even try to justify that contract.
But I think there is a very good chance he's QB1 in 2025. As a fan, I completely misjudged how they viewed him and handled him this offseason.
I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Anyone who says "xxxx derangement syndrome" is automatically a fucking idiot. But to think that's the "single stupidest line" in sports history really drives home how fucking clueless you are.
Yeah, paying DJ would be a fucking disaster. Because he will NEVER be consistently good, even if he somehow catches lightning in a bottle and someone stick a horseshoe up his ass for a season resulting in like, idk, 4000 yards and 30 TDs (not even crazy numbers)
Sad thing is if he put up those numbers this team would want to retire his number on the spot. When in reality that is the level he needs to perform at to even try to justify that contract.
But I think there is a very good chance he's QB1 in 2025. As a fan, I completely misjudged how they viewed him and handled him this offseason.
Jones was the same cap hit this year whether starting or holding a clipboard. The money that went to sign Drew Lock could have been earmarked for the top QB available at #6.
That's an exit plan the Giants passed on and it's not at all clear a more attractive one is going to present itself for 2025.
The Jones contract at this point is an excuse for those who think Schoen was somehow hamstrung going into 2024; and, therefore, left no choice but to keep him in some manner.
I know the ship has sailed, but ideally the outcome would have been draft a QB in the lottery, cut Jones as a post-June 1st casualty, and bring in a Lock and/or keep DeVito as insurance.
does not have the talent to be a top tier talent. The worst place to be is paying for mediocrity. Mina is 100 percent correct. So many of you just don't want admit the truth. And then there is the fact that you can't accept the fact that this WOMAN was right about Jones all along. Right from day 1 when she made fun of Gettleman drafting him.
+1.
She is excellent. I haven't listened to the vid yet but the ones slamming her it appears they've deliberately over-exaggerated her comments and tuned out anything potentially positive she might have said or implied - just so they can go on attack.
And some posters just can't understand the comment "if he does well it's not good . . ." They speak of mediocrity when they make this comment more than likely - as what many on here have tried to explain. But those that don't want to hear any complaints just continue to want to block their ears and lash out to anyone that doesn’t agree with their opinion that Jones deserved another year.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
It’s absolutely 100% true with posters here. They have flat out admitted it.
Why do certain college programs keep turning out 1st round QBs with spectacular statistics that fail in the NFL?
Great QBs are incredibly hard to find, even when the best ones want to come to your program. They leave soon if great. They need to build simple systems that the next guy up just goes in and plays.
Did you notice Tua got A LOT better once they added Waddle and Hill. Daboll is trying to do a similar thing here. I believe they think Jones will be an above average player in their system. IE a good system QB. Much easier to find than Aaron Rodger’s. They now have an elite playmaker in Nabers but everyone else is explosive. The system is designed to dink and dunk down the field and employ players with separation that create big play on their own.
I believe Daniel Jones VERY capable of throwing short passes at a high completion percentage. If the targets are explosive and excel at separation
I suspect Jones to do MUCH better than most. Making no guarantees but admit to excitement and hope. I see a plan. I don’t love Jones, I just think him capable of executing this offense. Their should be more space for his legs.
Players from other teams openly mock him. This doesn't happen with any other QBs. Yet people here somehow think they know more and he's suddenly going to become a great QB. The Jones fan club is a cult.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
Drawing a conclusion with five years of data isn't hate.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
It is fear. Jones could suffer a similar fate to Tua if Nabers is the real deal. Jones skill set fits this system designed on playmakers. It is essentially a college system. We needed players that fit. A healthy Jones ran the system effectively in 2022 with absolute shite for explosives plays from his targets. That is what I believe Daboll saw and why we didn’t make any effort to replace Daniel Jones.
Players from other teams openly mock him. This doesn't happen with any other QBs. Yet people here somehow think they know more and he's suddenly going to become a great QB. The Jones fan club is a cult.
I've asked this question probably over 20X.
If we needed a QB, and Jones was a free agent on another team, with the same results, would anyone on this board want to sign him?
Anyone?
I never receive an answer on that. And for obvious reasons...
The disconnect between how some here view Jones & how fan bases of the other 31 teams view DJ is striking.
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
The disconnect between how some here view Jones & how fan bases of the other 31 teams view DJ is striking.
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
Other than maybe 2-3 posters
Who here is actually advocating keeping him here long term?
The disconnect between how some here view Jones & how fan bases of the other 31 teams view DJ is striking.
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
That's a great point. Just mention his name to the fan of another team (and I'm surrounded by them) and they just laugh.
That's a fair retort. & I agree that 99% of BBI wants to move, but there are some-even though who wish to move on-still prop him up with the 'Well, I wanna move on, but remember _________________ (fill in the excuse or whatever).
The disconnect between how some here view Jones & how fan bases of the other 31 teams view DJ is striking.
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
Other than maybe 2-3 posters
Who here is actually advocating keeping him here long term?
This. But it won’t stop from the usual posters sticking with their same boring shtick.
That's a fair retort. & I agree that 99% of BBI wants to move, but there are some-even though who wish to move on-still prop him up with the 'Well, I wanna move on, but remember _________________ (fill in the excuse or whatever).
And those people are just as bad as the people who spin BS narratives like…”the team only made a “tepid” effort to get Maye because they still really want Jones….or they weren’t “really all in” on getting another QB because they didn’t any of the QB’s that went after Maye
But that's speculating what the Giants plans/intentions were, while the other is those BBIers who hide under the 'I wanna move on' angle & then list excuse after excuse for him.
Listen, we're all never going to agree on this. People are in their corners, myself included. The Jones era has been so polarizing & contentious that I just hope it ends for the mental sanity of a lot of people, again including myself.
But that's speculating what the Giants plans/intentions were, while the other is those BBIers who hide under the 'I wanna move on' angle & then list excuse after excuse for him.
Listen, we're all never going to agree on this. People are in their corners, myself included. The Jones era has been so polarizing & contentious that I just hope it ends for the mental sanity of a lot of people, again including myself.
I think we both hope that 2024 is the last year for him with the team
he may be able to complete short passes but I don't see him becoming a great short passer. He just doesn't have the instincts like Kurt Warner did with that type of passing game.
Why do certain college programs keep turning out 1st round QBs with spectacular statistics that fail in the NFL?
Great QBs are incredibly hard to find, even when the best ones want to come to your program. They leave soon if great. They need to build simple systems that the next guy up just goes in and plays.
Did you notice Tua got A LOT better once they added Waddle and Hill. Daboll is trying to do a similar thing here. I believe they think Jones will be an above average player in their system. IE a good system QB. Much easier to find than Aaron Rodger’s. They now have an elite playmaker in Nabers but everyone else is explosive. The system is designed to dink and dunk down the field and employ players with separation that create big play on their own.
I believe Daniel Jones VERY capable of throwing short passes at a high completion percentage. If the targets are explosive and excel at separation
I suspect Jones to do MUCH better than most. Making no guarantees but admit to excitement and hope. I see a plan. I don’t love Jones, I just think him capable of executing this offense. Their should be more space for his legs.
The league has already figured out how to stop the running. Any decent team will make DJ beat them by throwing down the field, and he hasn't shown the ability to consistently do that.
But, there is a world where Schoen passing on a QB is simply him not wanting to attach his fate to a prospect he doesn't deem worthy at 6. McCarthy was polarizing, he wasn't a slam dunk lottery pick. Penix with a ton of injuries and being only 18 months younger than Jones. Nix seemed like a specific fit for Payton.
I get Schoen not willing to go QB and taking Nabers. He's not going to lose his job over the Jones contract, that was an organizational decision. Put it this way, does anyone think Schoen had to talk Mara into that contract? No fucking way.
But, taking McCarthy at 6 a year after giving Jones the contract? That's a different story. Maybe was worth the risk. McCarthy wasn't.
I can pull receipts about how people viewed McCarthy here from January - March. And I say that as someone who would've taken him.
And those people are just as bad as the people who spin BS narratives like…”the team only made a “tepid” effort to get Maye because they still really want Jones….or they weren’t “really all in” on getting another QB because they didn’t any of the QB’s that went after Maye
The BS works both ways
I'm going to assume this is - mostly - directed at me.
I said Schoen didn't go balls to the wall to buy the Pats draft spot. His offer seemed more on the low-ball end (IMV). If he truly loved Maye, and thought he was a better long-term solution than Jones, he should have paid the premium.
I've identified that as Plan A: try to move up to select Jones's replacement, but only if a great deal falls into your lap.
If Plan A wasn't executed, I said there was a Plan B in place. And that plan was they were comfortable still moving forward with Jones, so let's not worry about selecting a QB and, instead, buy more offensive talent for Jones.
Not sure why that labeled BS. Seems like a pretty cogent deduction based on the outcome.
Of the six I thought he was most likely to be a bust. That they liked him so much did nothing to fill me with confidence in this front office. Just because he's big doesn't mean he's Josh Allen.
Anyway I think it's also worth remembering what Sy's early views are on next year's class: weaker at QB and stronger at WR. If that bears out to be true the Giants only look stupider than they already do. If they actually want to move on from Jones they'll have to force the pick in that weaker draft... remember what Eric said in the pre-draft podcast: "Schoen has to find a QB this offseason or next."
This offseason is now gone. If Jones doesn't play up to that $47M this season Mara, Schoen, and Daboll are going to look like morons and they should be destroyed. Hopefully the TV cameramen will have the presence of mind to focus on those three guys (and not Jones) as the boos rain down.
I can pull receipts about how people viewed McCarthy here from January - March. And I say that as someone who would've taken him.
By all means, pull those receipts.
Make sure you grab the one where I say I'm not a McCarthy guy, but he's more talented than Jones and I would hold me nose and accept it.
Again, I agree with you. But, that isn't a ringing endorsement for the player. Especially when you aren't taking advantage of the rookie contract window until 2025/26.
Of the six I thought he was most likely to be a bust. That they liked him so much did nothing to fill me with confidence in this front office. Just because he's big doesn't mean he's Josh Allen.
Anyway I think it's also worth remembering what Sy's early views are on next year's class: weaker at QB and stronger at WR. If that bears out to be true the Giants only look stupider than they already do. If they actually want to move on from Jones they'll have to force the pick in that weaker draft... remember what Eric said in the pre-draft podcast: "Schoen has to find a QB this offseason or next."
This offseason is now gone. If Jones doesn't play up to that $47M this season Mara, Schoen, and Daboll are going to look like morons and they should be destroyed. Hopefully the TV cameramen will have the presence of mind to focus on those three guys (and not Jones) as the boos rain down.
I agree with you. This was the year to do it. They'll likely force it next year similar to 2019 and Jones.
My guess is Schoen just didn't want to marry himself to McCarthy and the medicals were too risky with Penix at 6.
Even if you stipulate that the 1st round pick was defensible
They still could have been taking swings on guys with upside for the past 3 years. They didn't. And now we're in a desperate situation.
Ultimately, avoiding any possible QB controversy and making sure Daniel is comfortable is a huge priority. If we had drafted a guy like Jordan Travis (or his equivalent in any of the 2 prior drafts), fans would be chanting for him when Daniel throws a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 10 for the 5th time in a game. That is not an acceptable situation for the Giants leadership. And again we prioritize Daniel's happiness over the franchise success and the fans.
RE: Even if you stipulate that the 1st round pick was defensible
They still could have been taking swings on guys with upside for the past 3 years. They didn't. And now we're in a desperate situation.
Ultimately, avoiding any possible QB controversy and making sure Daniel is comfortable is a huge priority. If we had drafted a guy like Jordan Travis (or his equivalent in any of the 2 prior drafts), fans would be chanting for him when Daniel throws a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 10 for the 5th time in a game. That is not an acceptable situation for the Giants leadership. And again we prioritize Daniel's happiness over the franchise success and the fans.
I don't really buy this. Half the fan base already wants Lock to start. There will still be a controversy.
Schoen inherited a team that struggled to throw the football, and in three years of continued struggles he has done nothing to improve the position.
They have not tried. It is unconscionable. If a new owner bought the team tomorrow the first responsible move would be to fire everyone associated with the QB position. Their performance from an evaluation and strategic perspective has been catastrophic.
And those people are just as bad as the people who spin BS narratives like…”the team only made a “tepid” effort to get Maye because they still really want Jones….or they weren’t “really all in” on getting another QB because they didn’t any of the QB’s that went after Maye
The BS works both ways
I'm going to assume this is - mostly - directed at me.
I said Schoen didn't go balls to the wall to buy the Pats draft spot. His offer seemed more on the low-ball end (IMV). If he truly loved Maye, and thought he was a better long-term solution than Jones, he should have paid the premium.
I've identified that as Plan A: try to move up to select Jones's replacement, but only if a great deal falls into your lap.
If Plan A wasn't executed, I said there was a Plan B in place. And that plan was they were comfortable still moving forward with Jones, so let's not worry about selecting a QB and, instead, buy more offensive talent for Jones.
Not sure why that labeled BS. Seems like a pretty cogent deduction based on the outcome.
You are ASSUMING it was not a strong offer and pushing a narrative that is an assumption
...they forced Lock to walk back comments that he didn't even make about wanting to compete for a starting job...
That situation was fascinating.
Thursday, March 14, 2024
Quote:
"They [Giants] basically sold him on the opportunity to compete to be the starter," Schneider said on Thursday on Seattle Sports Radio 710AM. "And he felt like it was the right opportunity. He looked at Baker Mayfield's opportunity last year and felt that this could be something similar."
Friday, March 15, 2024
Quote:
Lock was asked on Friday if he has been given the impression that he is walking into an open competition. He said it has been made very clear to him that Jones is the Giants’ starter.
“Daniel Jones is the starter of this team. That’s been conveyed to me,” Lock said.
McCarthy, Penix, and Nix weren't even considered 1st round talents a couple of months before the draft. QB desperate teams may have forced those picks.
In reality, the entire NFL can't scout QBs worth shit. The odds are one or two of Williams, Daniels, and Maye will bust. And the odds are one of of Penix, McCarthy, and Nix will end up being pretty good.
But taking Nabers (more of a sure thing as a true "blue chip" talent) is defensible.
Yes. I love Nabers as a prospect. But I love him a lot more with a top QB. Feels like a luxury pick for the Giants. That's why I say, if one of those next 3 QBs pans out, then we have to take a long hard look at Schoen's tenure. KOC and Payton aren't exactly slouches.
Didn’t KOC miss the playoffs last year and lose to a Daniel Jones led team? Maybe a little success is needed before crowning him, no?
Not crowning him, though he did well under McVay. I'm not saying KOC is any better than Daboll, I'm just saying he and Payton know something about QBs.
I believe Daniel Jones VERY capable of throwing short passes at a high completion percentage.
He already does that. See Yards per Attempt. They just don't score points with it.
Perfect. Thank you for making the argument. They finally have multiple players capable of explosive plays. Nabers is going to take some of those to the house. When teams are forced to take Nabers away, all of the players find more space and they are only slightly less explosive. Tracy, Robinson, Hyatt and Johnson are all big play waiting to happen.
Not saying Jones is great. I am interested to see how his skills play in this offense with the player it needs. I don’t love the dude, it just doesn’t ruin my karma knowing he is our QB in 2024.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
It’s absolutely 100% true with posters here. They have flat out admitted it.
The below comment in quotes is an im imagination. And you compound it by lying. No poster admitted this in the context it was mentioned. You and others are using the same absurdity to exaggaerate the Mina Kimes video too.
Your insanity/break from reality knows no bounds.
"The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. "
RE: I mean it's got to go beyond nice kid and works hard
On the Giants it may not. They aren't turning over every stone to win. You said it yourself: they aren't cutthroat. It is a family business run like a family.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
It’s absolutely 100% true with posters here. They have flat out admitted it.
The below comment in quotes is an im imagination. And you compound it by lying. No poster admitted this in the context it was mentioned. You and others are using the same absurdity to exaggaerate the Mina Kimes video too.
Your insanity/break from reality knows no bounds.
"The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. "
Three have been many posters who have flat out said they rather anyone but Joens. They have flat out said we should cut him and move on to anyone else. This isn’t a lie.
It’s a straight up fact. The above poster is the president of the anyone but Jones brigade. Ask him yourself.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
It’s absolutely 100% true with posters here. They have flat out admitted it.
The below comment in quotes is an im imagination. And you compound it by lying. No poster admitted this in the context it was mentioned. You and others are using the same absurdity to exaggaerate the Mina Kimes video too.
Your insanity/break from reality knows no bounds.
"The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. "
Three have been many posters who have flat out said they rather anyone but Joens. They have flat out said we should cut him and move on to anyone else. This isn’t a lie.
It’s a straight up fact. The above poster is the president of the anyone but Jones brigade. Ask him yourself.
This is not why I called you a liar. If you want to move the goalposts - then okay. But I was specific regarding the comment regarding "The Hate Club" below. I'm okay though with your amendment. That’s fine- we disagree. “Anyone but Jones” is different than what was said below at the bottom.
Though I get the feeling sometimes that you and the others who back up Jones would take literally a commenting "I'd rather die than gave to go through watching Jones again." The comment just made is hyperbole.
What if you just no longer believe in Jones between his quality of play and his injury history? You guys just want to classify it as hating just as what was some tried in looney way on this thread to slam the video by exaggerating the points that were made.
It really is funny the extreme many of you go through to make excuses for him. For example at the 23 minute mark of the video Mina states to paraphrase that “for Giants fans/ the FO, there are two paths that are GOOD. One is that Joens is bad early so you can move on and not risk his injury issue and the other is IF HE IS ACTUALLY BETTER THAN HE WAS IN 2022.” Instead you and the other Jones apologists have misrepresented the video. Not only are your posts laughable in how hard you try to stick up for Jones but in the manner you mispresent (or support those the misrepresent) something like this video just because you don’t; want to hear anyone shit on Jones.
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"The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. "
If you've got a shitty QB you should be trying to replace him at every opportunity. Otherwise you're wasting time.
The most precious resource an NFL team has is time, a season. Each season is a precious opportunity to compete for a title. And the Giants squander them waiting for Daniel Jones to pop. A player with a low probability to emerge as an elite starter. It is as if they value the Jones experiment more than they value pursuing championships. They behave like it is more important to understand exactly what Jones is, even though he is most likely a journeyman, than to start searching for their Brock Purdy, their Stroud, their next high upside starter. The Giants are presently the most mismanaged team in the league. It's a little hard to take.
that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
It’s absolutely 100% true with posters here. They have flat out admitted it.
The below comment in quotes is an im imagination. And you compound it by lying. No poster admitted this in the context it was mentioned. You and others are using the same absurdity to exaggaerate the Mina Kimes video too.
Your insanity/break from reality knows no bounds.
"The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. "
Three have been many posters who have flat out said they rather anyone but Joens. They have flat out said we should cut him and move on to anyone else. This isn’t a lie.
It’s a straight up fact. The above poster is the president of the anyone but Jones brigade. Ask him yourself.
This is not why I called you a liar. If you want to move the goalposts - then okay. But I was specific regarding the comment regarding "The Hate Club" below. I'm okay though with your amendment. That’s fine- we disagree. “Anyone but Jones” is different than what was said below at the bottom.
Though I get the feeling sometimes that you and the others who back up Jones would take literally a commenting "I'd rather die than gave to go through watching Jones again." The comment just made is hyperbole.
What if you just no longer believe in Jones between his quality of play and his injury history? You guys just want to classify it as hating just as what was some tried in looney way on this thread to slam the video by exaggerating the points that were made.
It really is funny the extreme many of you go through to make excuses for him. For example at the 23 minute mark of the video Mina states to paraphrase that “for Giants fans/ the FO, there are two paths that are GOOD. One is that Joens is bad early so you can move on and not risk his injury issue and the other is IF HE IS ACTUALLY BETTER THAN HE WAS IN 2022.” Instead you and the other Jones apologists have misrepresented the video. Not only are your posts laughable in how hard you try to stick up for Jones but in the manner you mispresent (or support those the misrepresent) something like this video just because you don’t; want to hear anyone shit on Jones.
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"The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. "
When have I ever defended Jones? Looks like you’re the liar now. Because I think Jones sucks and I wanted a QB in the draft.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
Drawing a conclusion with five years of data isn't hate.
Of course it is. The conclusion is that DJ isn't nearly good enough. You hate him as the Giants QB. Scratch the word hate if you want to play the semantics game. How about intense desire to move on? You don't hate him, you just don't like him as QB, to the point that it's imperative we move on. The only other options are he's ok for now, or you like him, both which are views the Don't Like DJ as a QB to the Point of it being Imperative to Move On Club would never hold, or espouse.
The disconnect between how some here view Jones & how fan bases of the other 31 teams view DJ is striking.
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
That's a great point. Just mention his name to the fan of another team (and I'm surrounded by them) and they just laugh.
Why do certain college programs keep turning out 1st round QBs with spectacular statistics that fail in the NFL?
Great QBs are incredibly hard to find, even when the best ones want to come to your program. They leave soon if great. They need to build simple systems that the next guy up just goes in and plays.
Did you notice Tua got A LOT better once they added Waddle and Hill. Daboll is trying to do a similar thing here. I believe they think Jones will be an above average player in their system. IE a good system QB. Much easier to find than Aaron Rodger’s. They now have an elite playmaker in Nabers but everyone else is explosive. The system is designed to dink and dunk down the field and employ players with separation that create big play on their own.
I believe Daniel Jones VERY capable of throwing short passes at a high completion percentage. If the targets are explosive and excel at separation
I suspect Jones to do MUCH better than most. Making no guarantees but admit to excitement and hope. I see a plan. I don’t love Jones, I just think him capable of executing this offense. Their should be more space for his legs.
The league has already figured out how to stop the running. Any decent team will make DJ beat them by throwing down the field, and he hasn't shown the ability to consistently do that.
What's the deal with that? Will Daboll get fired and then the next coach will love him too? It is bizarre. I get it. Nice kid, works hard.
Maybe Schoen/Daboll think they are closer to the Vikings playoff win team than early 2023 results.
It is possible Sean. I am going to oversimplify my thinking.
DG was a poisoned pill
He went for hog mollies and should have been looking for men that could pass block.
THAT REALY FUCKED US UP FOR YEARS
We have been paying the price.
What happened under Judge was a joke, not sure he should be coaching at all.
Jones under Judge I throw away because the entire thing was a ragging dumpster fire of embarrassment.
I judge Jones under Daboll and I have reasonable explanation for what happened last year.
I don’t love the kid, I think he can be a good system QB for what Daboll like to run. I admit, I could be wrong about Jones. I doubt it though. I don’t think is great and don’t think he sucks. Plenty of evidence of that IMO as long as victories matter to you.
What's the deal with that? Will Daboll get fired and then the next coach will love him too? It is bizarre. I get it. Nice kid, works hard.
Maybe Schoen/Daboll think they are closer to the Vikings playoff win team than early 2023 results.
It is possible Sean. I am going to oversimplify my thinking.
DG was a poisoned pill
He went for hog mollies and should have been looking for men that could pass block.
THAT REALY FUCKED US UP FOR YEARS
We have been paying the price.
What happened under Judge was a joke, not sure he should be coaching at all.
Jones under Judge I throw away because the entire thing was a ragging dumpster fire of embarrassment.
I judge Jones under Daboll and I have reasonable explanation for what happened last year.
I don’t love the kid, I think he can be a good system QB for what Daboll like to run. I admit, I could be wrong about Jones. I doubt it though. I don’t think is great and don’t think he sucks. Plenty of evidence of that IMO as long as victories matter to you.
And he is also an enormous risk, is he not?
And his legs are probably worse now, correct?
And while the OL has improved, how good is the OL projected to be now and in the futture? They still need mroe help. Just becuase the OL is better - doens't mena it is good or will be good. They still need "more" more thna likely which they can get pofc but with a QB that is just "decent" how far are you expectign Giants to go? FIR AN AVG QB YOU NEED A TERRIFC OL NOOT JUST "OK." "OK" is not enough.
What's the deal with that? Will Daboll get fired and then the next coach will love him too? It is bizarre. I get it. Nice kid, works hard.
Maybe Schoen/Daboll think they are closer to the Vikings playoff win team than early 2023 results.
It is possible Sean. I am going to oversimplify my thinking.
DG was a poisoned pill
He went for hog mollies and should have been looking for men that could pass block.
THAT REALY FUCKED US UP FOR YEARS
We have been paying the price.
What happened under Judge was a joke, not sure he should be coaching at all.
Jones under Judge I throw away because the entire thing was a ragging dumpster fire of embarrassment.
I judge Jones under Daboll and I have reasonable explanation for what happened last year.
I don’t love the kid, I think he can be a good system QB for what Daboll like to run. I admit, I could be wrong about Jones. I doubt it though. I don’t think is great and don’t think he sucks. Plenty of evidence of that IMO as long as victories matter to you.
And he is also an enormous risk, is he not?
And his legs are probably worse now, correct?
And while the OL has improved, how good is the OL projected to be now and in the futture? They still need mroe help. Just becuase the OL is better - doens't mena it is good or will be good. They still need "more" more thna likely which they can get pofc but with a QB that is just "decent" how far are you expectign Giants to go? FIR AN AVG QB YOU NEED A TERRIFC OL NOOT JUST "OK." "OK" is not enough.
The disconnect between how some here view Jones & how fan bases of the other 31 teams view DJ is striking.
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
That's a great point. Just mention his name to the fan of another team (and I'm surrounded by them) and they just laugh.
Didnt they do the same with Eli? Fans are stupid
So if you think Mac Jones sucks, you're wrong because you're stupid?
The disconnect between how some here view Jones & how fan bases of the other 31 teams view DJ is striking.
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
That's a great point. Just mention his name to the fan of another team (and I'm surrounded by them) and they just laugh.
Didnt they do the same with Eli? Fans are stupid
So if you think Mac Jones sucks, you're wrong because you're stupid?
fans of other teams have no clue what is going on with another team.. i just follow what the experts have to say.. and about DJ if you get him comfortable back there again he will be good.. Danny has balls and thats what i think the coaching staff loves about him but he took a beating the last few years.. Sure TT and Tommy did better they were coming in fresh with a line that could at least hold up a couple of seconds but they also got demolished as the OL couldnt hold up against better DLs
I'd love for a deep expose into what people see in Jones. I really would. Yeah-as you said Sean-he seems like a nice kid & works hard, but the facts are the facts & he's just not a good QB. Not an attack on his character or whatever, but he's just not good @ the position he plays. & he's gotten more rope than anyone I can ever recall as a Giant. It is beyond weird. While I'm not saying Mara is pulling the strings-he might be, he might not be...I don't know-I wonder if Simms' & Eli's early struggles have created an organizational mindset of, 'Well those guys struggled early & became Super Bowl MVP QBs so maybe Jones can became one too'...I don't know. I really don't.
It's depressing AF that we're going into year fucking six with Jones, but here we are. & unless he balls out this season, I hope he's gone after this season. Hell, I hope the leash on him this fall is short & if he struggles, it's time to hit the bench kid. I'm not saying Lock is some great shake either, but from what I've seen/read...he'll @ least chuck the rock down the field. Jones hasn't done that since his rookie season.
RE: RE: I mean it's got to go beyond nice kid and works hard
I'd love for a deep expose into what people see in Jones. I really would. Yeah-as you said Sean-he seems like a nice kid & works hard, but the facts are the facts & he's just not a good QB. Not an attack on his character or whatever, but he's just not good @ the position he plays. & he's gotten more rope than anyone I can ever recall as a Giant. It is beyond weird. While I'm not saying Mara is pulling the strings-he might be, he might not be...I don't know-I wonder if Simms' & Eli's early struggles have created an organizational mindset of, 'Well those guys struggled early & became Super Bowl MVP QBs so maybe Jones can became one too'...I don't know. I really don't.
It's depressing AF that we're going into year fucking six with Jones, but here we are. & unless he balls out this season, I hope he's gone after this season. Hell, I hope the leash on him this fall is short & if he struggles, it's time to hit the bench kid. I'm not saying Lock is some great shake either, but from what I've seen/read...he'll @ least chuck the rock down the field. Jones hasn't done that since his rookie season.
I think the fact that we tried to draft Maye illustrates that this probably his last year here
Fair rebuttal, though I've seen here & elsewhere-Sy for example-thought the whole 'Trying to trade up for Maye' was a charade to move up for someone like Harrison or have someone move up & push someone back. I know Schefer said it was for Alt, though I don't buy that.
Fair rebuttal, though I've seen here & elsewhere-Sy for example-thought the whole 'Trying to trade up for Maye' was a charade to move up for someone like Harrison or have someone move up & push someone back. I know Schefer said it was for Alt, though I don't buy that.
Why I think the smokescreen narrative is BS…
Schoen was scouting all of the top QB’s in person last year and in the evaluation phase before the draft they spent a TON of time between workouts and in person visits with all of them except Nix
while the Giants did publicly back Jones, to an extent, every action they took, and the public perception, was that they are ready to move on. You simply don't allow your starting QB to be dragged through the mud like that, and you don't excite the fan base by making them think they're getting a new QB, just as a ruse.
Even if DJ was in on the scam, it has to take a toll. Allowing everyone to think they're done with DJ, while secretly having no intention of moving on, is a dumb idea, and the payoff is minimal.
The smokescreen advocates are unwilling to believe anything other than Giants love DJ, so they spew this garbage to back their narrative.
Sixteen of sixteen mock drafts collected at the Huddle Report on the eve of the draft had Giants taking a WR. See link.
The notion that "everyone" thought Giants were moving on from Jones is a strawman.
When the Giants signed Drew Lock in March, my posted response was that the Giants were not going to have Jones, Lock and a first round QB on their roster. And, what do you know, they don't.
This was a good listen, pretty much agreed with everything said
This was a good listen, pretty much agreed with everything said
They raised a number of issues that I've written about, including the complicated question of "is Daniel broken?" at this point.
Anything in between is the "treadmill of mediocrity" - I like that quote - which leads to QB hell.
But I think its fair to question is pre-snap reads and his ability to handle pressure. Seems to stare down his first read when he 'feels' the pressure and that leads to disaster most often. I think any QB struggles under pressure but I think Jones is worse than most. Think Seattle. He also hasn't been consistently healthy so protection has to improve (I think we addressed that well).
So lets protect him and find ways to get the ball out quick and into the hands of our playmakers (Nabers, Robinson, Hyatt, Slayton) while also providing some safety valves for him (Bellinger, Johnson, Singletary & maybe Tracy).
Jones isn't an elite QB. But protect him and give him weapons in a well designed offense and I think you can do enough on offense to win double digit games.
Beyond that, obviously plan to keep any and all options open to upgrade in the future. One idea I had was to trade out or back of next years first round to acquire an additional 1st in 2026 to assist in moving up then if needed. I know that's not an ideal plan perhaps but one to keep in the back pocket if nothing arises between now and the 2025 draft to find our guy.
Because everyone except a few fanatical types assume that the best version of Jones will never be good enough to hold the Lombardi Trophy.
Kimes and Brett Kollman also discussed ownership's role in this...`
1 Hour 12-minute mark - ( New Window )
Overall I don't know who this chic is but she seems fixated on using jones as her main Giants talking points- which has fan appeal but she rarely provides much beyond a basic fan level observation. keep in mind while some major QB's played in the playoffs last year we also saw:
Baker Mayfield
Mason Rudolph
Joe Flacco
Will Levis
Jordan Love (who until last year had not really done much and even lost to the Giants last season)
We act like the league is all made up of SB MVP QB's except the Giants.
I don't think that at all. Best discussion by the pundit class about the NYG QB situation.
Overall I don't know who this chic is but she seems fixated on using jones as her main Giants talking points- which has fan appeal but she rarely provides much beyond a basic fan level observation. keep in mind while some major QB's played in the playoffs last year we also saw:
Baker Mayfield
Mason Rudolph
Joe Flacco
Will Levis
Jordan Love (who until last year had not really done much and even lost to the Giants last season)
We act like the league is all made up of SB MVP QB's except the Giants.
You can't get around the point she raised. Jones is dead last in the NFL among 38 quarterbacks in throwing the ball down the field in the last two seasons. Taylor and DeVito come in, and that changes.
Quote:
they all assume the Giants want to get out of Jones contract and therefore think the Giants would be unhappy if he plays well because that would make it harder for them to move on. The Giants goal is to win, they considered drafting a QB because doubts were raised if Jones was the guy, BUT if Jones reproves that he can win why would the Giants still want to move on?
Because everyone except a few fanatical types assume that the best version of Jones will never be good enough to hold the Lombardi Trophy.
Kimes and Brett Kollman also discussed ownership's role in this...` 1 Hour 12-minute mark - ( New Window )
But if Jones plays to the level where the Giants are winning, the front office will be upset because they'll have to consider extending him. That argument combined with the other makes no sense!
But if Jones plays to the level where the Giants are winning, the front office will be upset because they'll have to consider extending him. That argument combined with the other makes no sense!
That's not what they said. They talked about it being more likely he can become an adequate back-up on another team.
Quote:
if you hate Jones this will 100% appeal to you. if you think the team as whole can be better with changes we have made this will be ok. if you think Jones will be better with an improved Oline and improved weapons then you will hate this commentary.
Overall I don't know who this chic is but she seems fixated on using jones as her main Giants talking points- which has fan appeal but she rarely provides much beyond a basic fan level observation. keep in mind while some major QB's played in the playoffs last year we also saw:
Baker Mayfield
Mason Rudolph
Joe Flacco
Will Levis
Jordan Love (who until last year had not really done much and even lost to the Giants last season)
We act like the league is all made up of SB MVP QB's except the Giants.
You can't get around the point she raised. Jones is dead last in the NFL among 38 quarterbacks in throwing the ball down the field in the last two seasons. Taylor and DeVito come in, and that changes.
I am not arguing the stuff sdaid, just she is a one trick pony about the Jones factor. I am not a Jones guy (wanted Maye) and we will be moving away from him after this season. I just don't think the Jones stuff is any more insightful than it is here. For some reason she has become the anti Jones/ anti Giants/ Anti Daboll etc crowds new love interest.
Quote:
Empty chatter is what this is.
I don't think that at all. Best discussion by the pundit class about the NYG QB situation.
I admittedly started losing interest as soon as the guy started spitting out that they are going to suck and laughing at idea that Dabs was coach of the year. They might suck, but the dude has no idea. It is far from a given. The folks who claim to know exactly what's going to happen have zero clue what they're talking about.
If he has a bunch of typical Daniel games - 200 yards, 1 TD, all check downs, horrible pocket presence, 0.5 INTs, offense struggles to move the ball- that is good enough for ownership, given his other characteristics they love so much. It's kind of like a coaches son situation- he's going to keep the job unless he's a complete disaster.
Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Nicke Foles, and Jeff Hostetler would like a word. Just saying.
Dilfer - cost basically nothing, all-time great defense
Brad Johnson - somewhat underrated, all-time great defense
Nick Foles - cost basically nothing, got absurdly hot for one year
Jeff Hostetler - no salary cap, Hall of Fame coaching, elite defense
If the plan is to build a team that an average QB can win with, how does paying that QB $40+ million per year factor into the team-building?
As far as I can tell, she's had two post-draft discussions of the Giants and both have been pretty spot on. Why is she drawing some praise for her take? Because it's a more honest assessment than you will hear from ESPN or the NFL Network guys.
Weird reaction by you.
1. Drafting Nabers was not about Jones. It was about Nabers.
2. Jones is only 18 months older than Penix with one less ACL tear. That comment was pretty striking to me and made me to a double take.
3. The Giants want to move on from Jones. I think this idea gets muddled here with thinking drafting Nabers is a statement that the organization is all in on Jones.
Mina brings up a big issue though. How do the Giants get off this train? Either he's better than 2022 or he's so bad that it's easy to move off of. What if he's just good enough to go 8-9? Are the Giants then committing his 2025 cap number to Jones?
And yet, he hasn't played a down in the NFL.
Jones' running will be limited as he recovers from his torn ACL. He has also had a concussion and two serious neck injuries, problems that will likely occur again given how much he runs.
Jones is now at best a "bridge starter" for a year or two, and more likely a permanent journeyman like Lock, Darnold, Minshew, Taylor, etc. He'd have to show remarkable improvement to overcome that designation. As a Giants fan I certainly hope he can, but also acknowledge that is very unlikely to happen.
The Giants actions support the opposite premise.
Foolish waste of time trying to support an opinion that doesn’t matter.
Bottom line: Doubtful either Schoen or Daboll would lose their job over Daniel Jones, but rather over the failure to right the Giants ship
“Reproves” he can win? When has he proven it? LOL, he’s 22-36-1 as a starter, the high-water mark being 9-6-1 in 2022. Low bar indeed!
Fact?
Because it was reported?
We offered what to a team that needed a QB more than us ?
We know the exact offer how?
The fact is that we did not draft a QB in the draft and we replaced our back up with a much less accomplished QB says what exactly?
Bottom line: Doubtful either Schoen or Daboll would lose their job over Daniel Jones, but rather over the failure to right the Giants ship
Yes. I agree with this.
The stuff re Jones of course has been hashed and rehashed to death such that it is probably impossible to add anything much new or different. However the truth of the matter is that nobody knows how well Jones can or can't play given a competent OL and some real weapons because he's never had either. Eric noted that no or at least few analysts are supporting Jones. Well you know who is? The Giants themselves so maybe we should all just SFU for awhile and see how it actually plays out.
Unlike most pundits, they did NOT make any absolute predictions/conclusions about Jones. They said he MIGHT continue to be terrible, or improve to mediocre, or he could improve enough to where he becomes a keeper. IMO, the future cannot be predicted and people who do it generally turn me off.
Actually they did make a prediction: Although the Giants have made inroads into improving the Oline and although they love Nabers, they said to expect another bad year because the Giants still don't have enough quality personnel. There was also no consensus of opinion on how good a coach Daboll is.
Ironically Jones' only playoff game was leading the Giants to a win over a very overrated Minny team that decided to move on from their underperforming QB and "reach" for JJ McCarthy 1 season later.
I finally lost faith in Jones last year. For your own sake please recognize there isn't any way for us to improve the roster enough to win a Superbowl with him at QB. By all means if you want to believe this go for it but everyone else in the world sees it. This is why they think another average to good season would be a bad thing for the Giants... it delays the inevitable because Mara would 100% stop them from moving on. And no I don't believe the propaganda he isn't involve, he may stay that way mostly but he won't do it when it matters
Why, because they didn’t tell you what you wanted to hear? I thought they were more than fair, addressed the lack of support Jones has had, and doubt that he can now become the QB he might have been with better support. If anything, I think they overstated how Jones could have been successful with a better cast.
I hate to break it to you, but in the NFL, the only people who still wonder if Jones can be the guy all work for the Giants. I will repeat this thought exercise:
Imagine Dwayne Haskins had the start of his career in DC like Jones had, a promising rookie year, followed by utter incompetence. Meanwhile, Commander fans keep harping in the bad coaching and poor cast as reasons for his struggles. Then with a coaching change, Haskins has a much more efficient season, and DC gives him the Jones contract. We would ALL be laughing our asses off.
Then take it one step further. In year 1 of that contract, Haskins is abysmal, worse than he’s ever been, but DC doesn’t draft his replacement. Who here isn’t in stitches?
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Either he proves everyone wrong, or he proves that the excuses for him were just that....excuses. I just hope he's not given a seventh season if things don't go well.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Totally agree!!! They don't want him to play well.... Translated to we want to lose??? She isn't any better.....
Willing to give it one more half-year with a fresh OL and shiny top 10 receiver. But if he doesn't show a combination of his rookie year and 2022 out of the gate, it's clear he will never be "the guy."
Still think he can with the right recipe and an injury free season. Seems like Schoen and Daboll were fine with passing on the other QBs to see if they can salvage this.
What they are referring to is Jones repeating his 2022 (Kimes even mentioned it), well enough to coax the team to a WC berth, but not well enough to beat the better teams. Maybe the derangement is with the DJFC?
I think he'd be very down on him if he thought Giants wouldn't be able to have a playoff type season with him at QB and some changes to OL and weaponry.
The Giants want to be right about Jones.
The Giants want to be right about Jones.
Again, a completely baseless comment.
Schoen literally tried to trade for Drake Maye, and offered the Giants #1 pick next year along with #47 this year.
So, your statement about Jones not needing to play well to stick around is a complete alternate reality.
They tried to replace him 3 weeks ago.
I think he'd be very down on him if he thought Giants wouldn't be aoo harshlyble to have a playoff type season with him at QB and some changes to OL and weaponry.
Who signs Schmelk's paychecks?
I like Schmelk. However anyone who works for the organization will never criticize too harshly.
Wait are we really going by talking heads analysis instead of Daballs and Joe and Kafka? They could have easily signed another QB in FA they didnt, they could have easily drafted another QB if they liked one better, they didnt. Why dont we trust the actual experts instead of the talking heads? BTW whose the coach in Denver that said Dan could be a playoff winning QB -Sean Payton but Mina says lol
The Giants want to be right about Jones.
They wanted to be so right about Jones that they tried to draft Maye
Amazing some of the utterly stupid things you post here
The best wide receivers in the history of the position are barely worth 2 points a game. Malik Nabers, who is a great prospect, will not make up for a serious deficit at QB. Your argument sounds exactly like what people said about adding Barkley to a moribund attack in 2018, that he would revive the attack and make an aging Eli a better QB all by himself.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
It's pretty freaking funny watching people get tied up in knots. Some people are at the point they don't want Daniel Jones to play well. Too funny.......
Click-baiters got to pay their bills and there's no shortage of Giants fans with an insatiable appetite for anything negative. It's easy money.
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I feel like we are downplaying the Nabers pick a bit. He is going to change the entire offense.
Now, if we had Malik Willis...
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Empty chatter is what this is.
Yup. A bunch of opinions that are no more valuable than anyone on BBI. Nothing we haven't heard repeatedly from the naysayers on BBI (and yet those of us who agree with Schoen and Daboll are called fanatical!).
Click-baiters got to pay their bills and there's no shortage of Giants fans with an insatiable appetite for anything negative. It's easy money.
The loud Giant fans are always wrong -Tried running Eli and Tom Coughlin out of town while everyone was trust in reeech. and many more examples thru the decades. The biggest flaw of the team has been the OL end of story.. It wasted Eli's prime and has crushed DJ potential. BUT Joe gets it and he and Daballs have addressed it.. They turned over the roster more talent and veteran presence and the coaching room.
We are placing a ton of hopes and expectations on a guy who has yet to play a down in the NFL. Kind of seems unfair. If he gets hurt or busts, this could get ugly.
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I feel like we are downplaying the Nabers pick a bit. He is going to change the entire offense.
The best wide receivers in the history of the position are barely worth 2 points a game. Malik Nabers, who is a great prospect, will not make up for a serious deficit at QB. Your argument sounds exactly like what people said about adding Barkley to a moribund attack in 2018, that he would revive the attack and make an aging Eli a better QB all by himself.
Eliwasrobbed!!!!
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In comment 16514353 ryanmkeane said:
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I feel like we are downplaying the Nabers pick a bit. He is going to change the entire offense.
Now, if we had Malik Willis...
Or traded for Russell Wilson. Would have been highway robbery for us.
3. The Giants want to move on from Jones. I think this idea gets muddled here with thinking drafting Nabers is a statement that the organization is all in on Jones.
I don't think you can say that unequivocally. The Giants apparently considered moving on from Jones by having discussions to buy the Patriots draft slot. But it sounded like a soft offer where Schoen was trying to buy the spot with a coupon. And Wolf wasn't interested.
When that didn't materialize, it looked like the Giants were jubilant to draft Nabers and then let Jones know via text Jones they were bringing in more reinforcements for him.
And in the ensuing hour after that, more talented QB prospects than Jones were drafted - Penix #8, McCarthy #10, and Nix #12.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
But you can conclude this as fact. lol. The internet is like a biosphere where you can view cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias live and in the wild.
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3. The Giants want to move on from Jones. I think this idea gets muddled here with thinking drafting Nabers is a statement that the organization is all in on Jones.
I don't think you can say that unequivocally. The Giants apparently considered moving on from Jones by having discussions to buy the Patriots draft slot. But it sounded like a soft offer where Schoen was trying to buy the spot with a coupon. And Wolf wasn't interested.
When that didn't materialize, it looked like the Giants were jubilant to draft Nabers and then let Jones know via text Jones they were bringing in more reinforcements for him.
And in the ensuing hour after that, more talented QB prospects than Jones were drafted - Penix #8, McCarthy #10, and Nix #12.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
Oh…so now the spin is a soft offer to continue the narrative that they never wanted to get rid of Jones
You have literally zero idea how any of these prospects will turn out…but keep spinning the BS to fit your narrative
Eric should charge posters for counseling services on Jones. It’s like a therapy session here.
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Empty chatter is what this is.
Yup. A bunch of opinions that are no more valuable than anyone on BBI. Nothing we haven't heard repeatedly from the naysayers on BBI (and yet those of us who agree with Schoen and Daboll are called fanatical!).
Click-baiters got to pay their bills and there's no shortage of Giants fans with an insatiable appetite for anything negative. It's easy money.
Eh. I think it's deeply flawed to assume no one has more valuable insight than BBI. Dominique Foxworth played years in the league and was the president of the players union. He might know a bit about quarterbacks as a very good player, and he might know a thing about contracts and the business of.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
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It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
Huh? I think you have it twisted. Daniel Jones is the poster child of opportunity cost. Passing on opportunities to keep Jones installed as starter, simply because he cost a high first, has sapped the Giants of a lot of possible upside. Passing on Penix, JJM, and Nix, to retain Jones, is a disaster of opportunity cost. Those three prospects have much higher ceilings than Jones. That's opportunity cost.
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3. The Giants want to move on from Jones. I think this idea gets muddled here with thinking drafting Nabers is a statement that the organization is all in on Jones.
I don't think you can say that unequivocally. The Giants apparently considered moving on from Jones by having discussions to buy the Patriots draft slot. But it sounded like a soft offer where Schoen was trying to buy the spot with a coupon. And Wolf wasn't interested.
When that didn't materialize, it looked like the Giants were jubilant to draft Nabers and then let Jones know via text Jones they were bringing in more reinforcements for him.
And in the ensuing hour after that, more talented QB prospects than Jones were drafted - Penix #8, McCarthy #10, and Nix #12.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
bw, I wanted to take McCarthy at 6. If I recall you did not think McCarthy was a lottery prospect. You definitely did not think Penix was. I don't recall your opinion on Nix, but I think you were on board in the 2nd round.
I have a tough time faulting Schoen if he shared your opinion on the QBs I mentioned above. Your theory on a soft Maye offer would hold more water if the Pats traded the pick to the Vikings.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
bw, I wanted to take McCarthy at 6. If I recall you did not think McCarthy was a lottery prospect. You definitely did not think Penix was. I don't recall your opinion on Nix, but I think you were on board in the 2nd round.
I have a tough time faulting Schoen if he shared your opinion on the QBs I mentioned above. Your theory on a soft Maye offer would hold more water if the Pats traded the pick to the Vikings.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
Nailed it- good post.
The second part is what can be concluded to be the Giants thinking. The first part is unknown, but the undeniable fact is that ultimately they decided Nabers was too good to pass up.
The only dilemma the Giants face is where they find the QB to replace Jones. All signs point to them wanting to replace him.
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In comment 16514289 Sean said:
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3. The Giants want to move on from Jones. I think this idea gets muddled here with thinking drafting Nabers is a statement that the organization is all in on Jones.
I don't think you can say that unequivocally. The Giants apparently considered moving on from Jones by having discussions to buy the Patriots draft slot. But it sounded like a soft offer where Schoen was trying to buy the spot with a coupon. And Wolf wasn't interested.
When that didn't materialize, it looked like the Giants were jubilant to draft Nabers and then let Jones know via text Jones they were bringing in more reinforcements for him.
And in the ensuing hour after that, more talented QB prospects than Jones were drafted - Penix #8, McCarthy #10, and Nix #12.
It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
bw, I wanted to take McCarthy at 6. If I recall you did not think McCarthy was a lottery prospect. You definitely did not think Penix was. I don't recall your opinion on Nix, but I think you were on board in the 2nd round.
I have a tough time faulting Schoen if he shared your opinion on the QBs I mentioned above. Your theory on a soft Maye offer would hold more water if the Pats traded the pick to the Vikings.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
Not to mention it is not just is Jones > Any QB available, but whether Jones + Nabers + Filling other positions until you select a QB > QB at 6 + Lesser talent at other positions or QB at 6 + WR in Round 1 next year.
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In comment 16514410 bw in dc said:
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It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
Huh? I think you have it twisted. Daniel Jones is the poster child of opportunity cost. Passing on opportunities to keep Jones installed as starter, simply because he cost a high first, has sapped the Giants of a lot of possible upside. Passing on Penix, JJM, and Nix, to retain Jones, is a disaster of opportunity cost. Those three prospects have much higher ceilings than Jones. That's opportunity cost.
I was referring to the cost of his contract; it is guaranteed for next season, hence no additional opportunity cost. As opposed to spending a high 1st on a QB they may not have been sold on.
Having higher ceilings than Jones is a flawed way to evaluate the opportunity cost. You don't draft them because they are or will be better than Jones; you draft them because you think they can lead you to a SB. Anything else is misspent.
The answer is....Darius Slayton? Wan'Dale looks the part and Hyatt seems like he can be really solid. But in 2019, Jones had Tate, Slayton, and Shepard. Slayton was his go to guy. 2020, pretty much the same. 2021...the same. 2022 they added Robinson and Hodgins which helped but come on now.
Nabers is the 6th pick of the draft. He is expected to have a Beckham-like effect on the offense. It should open things up for Jones if he has time. Nabers can play every WR position on the field.
That means that Robinson and Hyatt can be wide open a ton.
The problem then lies - if the Giants win anywhere from 7-10 games, ultimately they won't be "high enough" to draft a top tier QB.
They may go the FA route if Jones looks good to OK.
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fact that the Giants tried to move up for Maye also proves that whether for performance or injury reasons, they are done with Jones. As Sean said, taking Nabers was not a statement that they are committed to Jones. It was simply about taking the player many people thought was the best WR, a position of dire need for the Giants.
Woah
Fact?
Because it was reported?
We offered what to a team that needed a QB more than us ?
We know the exact offer how?
The fact is that we did not draft a QB in the draft and we replaced our back up with a much less accomplished QB says what exactly?
Tyrod was turds in his post Bills career. Floundered with the Browns, Texans, Chargers. Consistently low QBR. Lock is a better option going forward because of his age and health history.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
If they like him to start in 2024 why wouldn't they like him to start in 2025?
Jones, even by his own low standards, was terrible in 2023 AND he tore his ACL. If he stays healthy and puts up a typical Jones year (20 total TDs, 6.7 YPA, offense averages around 20 PPG), why wouldn't he be back in 2025?
bw, I wanted to take McCarthy at 6. If I recall you did not think McCarthy was a lottery prospect. You definitely did not think Penix was. I don't recall your opinion on Nix, but I think you were on board in the 2nd round.
I have a tough time faulting Schoen if he shared your opinion on the QBs I mentioned above. Your theory on a soft Maye offer would hold more water if the Pats traded the pick to the Vikings.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
Let me give you an example of a team acting like they really want to move on from their QB. Not this soft, nuanced non-sense form Schoen.
Denver.
Wilson is a SB champion, multiple all pros & pro bowls, and a likely HoFamer. And a massive hit to the Broncos cap finances for the next year or two.
But Peyton, a great HC, offensive planner and QB developer, said he's had enough of Wilson. And he's ready to take his medicine now on the cap and find a new QB. So, he drafted Nix at #12 and has absolutely zero regrets about telling Wilson to not have the door hit him in the ass on the way out of Denver.
That's how real teams who want to move on from a real franchise QB act.
Quote:And you can't just throw quick passes all the time... Defenses will catch on pretty fast so a downfield game is a must.. Daniel Jones will have to launch it this year
if you hate Jones this will 100% appeal to you. if you think the team as whole can be better with changes we have made this will be ok. if you think Jones will be better with an improved Oline and improved weapons then you will hate this commentary.
Overall I don't know who this chic is but she seems fixated on using jones as her main Giants talking points- which has fan appeal but she rarely provides much beyond a basic fan level observation. keep in mind while some major QB's played in the playoffs last year we also saw:
Baker Mayfield
Mason Rudolph
Joe Flacco
Will Levis
Jordan Love (who until last year had not really done much and even lost to the Giants last season)
We act like the league is all made up of SB MVP QB's except the Giants.
You can't get around the point she raised. Jones is dead last in the NFL among 38 quarterbacks in throwing the ball down the field in the last two seasons. Taylor and DeVito come in, and that changes.
They know this.
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Was a good way to describe Jones
This was a good listen, pretty much agreed with everything said
They raised a number of issues that I've written about, including the complicated question of "is Daniel broken?" at this point.
Physically and mentally.
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bw, I wanted to take McCarthy at 6. If I recall you did not think McCarthy was a lottery prospect. You definitely did not think Penix was. I don't recall your opinion on Nix, but I think you were on board in the 2nd round.
I have a tough time faulting Schoen if he shared your opinion on the QBs I mentioned above. Your theory on a soft Maye offer would hold more water if the Pats traded the pick to the Vikings.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
Let me give you an example of a team acting like they really want to move on from their QB. Not this soft, nuanced non-sense form Schoen.
Denver.
Wilson is a SB champion, multiple all pros & pro bowls, and a likely HoFamer. And a massive hit to the Broncos cap finances for the next year or two.
But Peyton, a great HC, offensive planner and QB developer, said he's had enough of Wilson. And he's ready to take his medicine now on the cap and find a new QB. So, he drafted Nix at #12 and has absolutely zero regrets about telling Wilson to not have the door hit him in the ass on the way out of Denver.
That's how real teams who want to move on from a real franchise QB act.
Or despite scouting the majority of the QB class in person last year and spending a ton of time with most of the top prospects in the evaluation phase…they determined that only one player fit the criteria of what they were looking for
Any way to spin a situation negatively….you will find
Tell us more about the “tepid” offer we made for Maye….prime example
It doesn’t fit the narrative
Therefore he have nothing else to obsess on
They failed to do so, and their approach to the QBs in this draft bothered me for two reasons:
1. If you believe they tried to trade up for Maye, they laser focused on one guy and didn't have alternative options in a draft that provided them. If they need to fall in full bloom love with a QB to even consider drafting him they are going to be counting on hitting a home run in their next swing (whenever that happens), and then they're going to give that guy the too-long leash that Jones has gotten. It's generally a bad approach that is going to waste a lot of years.
2. If they assessed that Maye was worth trading up for but the other three weren't even worth drafting at 6 I think we have a QB evaluation problem. I'm not sure Maye was even a better prospect let alone that much better. But these guys paid Daniel Jones so it shouldn't surprise us that there's a QB evaluation problem.
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bw, I wanted to take McCarthy at 6. If I recall you did not think McCarthy was a lottery prospect. You definitely did not think Penix was. I don't recall your opinion on Nix, but I think you were on board in the 2nd round.
I have a tough time faulting Schoen if he shared your opinion on the QBs I mentioned above. Your theory on a soft Maye offer would hold more water if the Pats traded the pick to the Vikings.
Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
Let me give you an example of a team acting like they really want to move on from their QB. Not this soft, nuanced non-sense form Schoen.
Denver.
Wilson is a SB champion, multiple all pros & pro bowls, and a likely HoFamer. And a massive hit to the Broncos cap finances for the next year or two.
But Peyton, a great HC, offensive planner and QB developer, said he's had enough of Wilson. And he's ready to take his medicine now on the cap and find a new QB. So, he drafted Nix at #12 and has absolutely zero regrets about telling Wilson to not have the door hit him in the ass on the way out of Denver.
That's how real teams who want to move on from a real franchise QB act.
That's a good point, but Payton has pelts on the wall (or a pelt), Schoen doesn't. I think it's clear that Schoen didn't value this QB class as much as others did. I was not a big fan of Nix's, but I thought his best landing spot was in Denver. It will be interesting to watch.
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
You wrote that Schoen could have thought Jones was better than many of these QB prospects. And revamping the OL and bringing in more firepower was a plan they trusted moving forward with Jones. Isn't that what I basically said, too?
BTW, a QB on a rookie contract isn't a cap albatross. So, we could have easily absorbed that investment.
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In addition, my initial point wasn't just about these three, but all of the talking heads. You'd be hard-pressed (maybe Kiper) to find anyone who believes in Daniel Jones. Whether you agree with that or not.
Wait are we really going by talking heads analysis instead of Daballs and Joe and Kafka? They could have easily signed another QB in FA they didnt, they could have easily drafted another QB if they liked one better, they didnt. Why dont we trust the actual experts instead of the talking heads? BTW whose the coach in Denver that said Dan could be a playoff winning QB -Sean Payton but Mina says lol
Why question them?
Because they made a horrific decision to Franchise Barkley and sign Jones to a $160 million deal.
If you haven't noticed, the goodwill they built up in 2022 evaporated in 2023.
Or despite scouting the majority of the QB class in person last year and spending a ton of time with most of the top prospects in the evaluation phase…they determined that only one player fit the criteria of what they were looking for
Any way to spin a situation negatively….you will find
Tell us more about the “tepid” offer we made for Maye….prime example
What are we arguing about here? Aren't we basically agreeing on the outcome?
I said Schoen may have had interest in Maye if he could get his price. Let's call that Plan A.
When he couldn't get his price to buy the Pats' spot, he seemed to have no problem switching to Plan B, which was staying hitched to Jones and bringing in more players to help Jones.
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Or despite scouting the majority of the QB class in person last year and spending a ton of time with most of the top prospects in the evaluation phase…they determined that only one player fit the criteria of what they were looking for
Any way to spin a situation negatively….you will find
Tell us more about the “tepid” offer we made for Maye….prime example
What are we arguing about here? Aren't we basically agreeing on the outcome?
I said Schoen may have had interest in Maye if he could get his price. Let's call that Plan A.
When he couldn't get his price to buy the Pats' spot, he seemed to have no problem switching to Plan B, which was staying hitched to Jones and bringing in more players to help Jones.
You mean like spinning and saying that we made a tepid offer to NE
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Empty chatter is what this is.
Yup. A bunch of opinions that are no more valuable than anyone on BBI. Nothing we haven't heard repeatedly from the naysayers on BBI (and yet those of us who agree with Schoen and Daboll are called fanatical!).
Click-baiters got to pay their bills and there's no shortage of Giants fans with an insatiable appetite for anything negative. It's easy money.
How is one 10-minute discussion of Daniel Jones buried in a 90 minute-NFL discussion click bait?
What did they say that is so outlandish? Be specific.
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I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
You wrote that Schoen could have thought Jones was better than many of these QB prospects. And revamping the OL and bringing in more firepower was a plan they trusted moving forward with Jones. Isn't that what I basically said, too?
BTW, a QB on a rookie contract isn't a cap albatross. So, we could have easily absorbed that investment.
That's not what I wrote, what I wrote is that I wouldn't make any conclusions on how Schoen felt about Jones vs any of the QB's available. He very well could have thought that any one or all 3 were better than Jones, but that none were good enough to take the Giants to the next level.
My comment about opportunity cost really wasn't about the cost of the rookie contract, but more about the value of the #6 pick. They (hopefully) got a very dynamic player at a position of dire need. The value there greatly exceeded the value of a middle of the road QB.
every damn day.. another 48 Daniel Jones threads..
Paton has the Payton card to play because Payton was not the coach when Paton traded for Russell Wilson. that is a tongue twister.
Schoen, presumptively with the approval/blessing of Daboll extended Jones. They likely don't have the luxury of moving on how Denver did.
I do think the Giants could have drafted a QB, if the right one was attainable, but I don't see a scenario where releasing Jones was on the table, and again, nor should it have been.
Peter Schrager I will listen to.
every damn day.. another 48 Daniel Jones threads..
The instant they passed on the QB, this became inevitable for another 12 months.
Peter Schrager I will listen to.
What did she get wrong here?
every damn day.. another 48 Daniel Jones threads..
Look around the board. There are threads on trading Slayton, Elijah Chatman, the 100 year best plays bracket, the 100 year commemorative patch, and more non-Jones related threads.
Few people are posting on them. You know why? Because no one cares. Giants fans, even the optimists, know that the story this year is the QB position, Schoen, Daboll, and Mara.
That's where the wind is blowing. And wait until the Giants get off to their customary 1-3 start...
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to Daniel Jones Interactive.com
every damn day.. another 48 Daniel Jones threads..
Look around the board. There are threads on trading Slayton, Elijah Chatman, the 100 year best plays bracket, the 100 year commemorative patch, and more non-Jones related threads.
Few people are posting on them. You know why? Because no one cares. Giants fans, even the optimists, know that the story this year is the QB position, Schoen, Daboll, and Mara.
That's where the wind is blowing. And wait until the Giants get off to their customary 1-3 start...
Bingo.
I hate these discussions, but we're here because everything hinges on the QB now. The rest of the roster looks competitive (not ideal, but competitive). But 90 percent of the fan base understands the QB situation is the main issue.
And whether or not you agree with it, the regime is tying their future to Jones or the possibility that Drew Lock can come to the rescue.
In other words, it's a big deal.
I get it, but then don't write that the Giants wanted to move on from Jones. They may have been willing to test the waters, but they weren't committed to it.
Schoen passed on Wilson, passed on a cheap deal for Fields, signed Lock and made sure he said the company line that he was hired as the back-up, couldn't make a deal to buy the Pats's spot, he passed on the other three big prospects, never drafted another QB prospect on day two or three, and is now bringing in UDFAs from Wabash college.
Seems pretty clear riding with the 10th highest paid player in the NFL for a sixth season was a high priority.
Same team. But instantly, the entire offense changed when that switch was made. Giants had gone years without a QB passing for 300 yards in a game, and Collins did it right away.
I posted last week, this can go one of four ways for Jones:
- he gets hurt again
- he continues to struggle
- he plays like he did in 2022 as a mid-tier QB
- he surpasses his 2022 level
Those are basically the options here for him. But he's got guys like Nabers, Hyatt, Robinson, and Slayton who can instantly put six points on the board IF he will throw the damn ball to them DOWN THE FIELD.
every damn day.. another 48 Daniel Jones threads..
Jones is the 10th highest paid player in the NFL and eats up 19% of our 2024 cap as the QB.
He can't stay healthy. And when he has been healthy, the results have mostly been below average.
And now we are in chapter six of the Jones Experience.
What the hell is more interesting than that?
A guy named Pat Mahomes. No all pro OL. No all pro WR or RB. They win because he is good at all the things Jones is bad at.
(1) The people who post on BBI are the vocal minority who take time to sign up and actually post their thoughts on an internet message board.
(2) Those still arguing on a BBI Daniel Jones thread are the vocal minorities of the minority. Those people posting on threads like this for the 1,000th time tend to have really strong views on Jones, one way or the other.
(3) If you put me in a room with 100 average Giants fans and I ask the question, "Are you concerned about the QB situation?" I'm pretty darn sure 90 percent of those fans will raise their hands (doesn't mean they have completely given up on Jones, but they are concerned).
(4) The goodwill Schoen and Daboll have had with fans is evaporating. You don't have to believe me or anyone else on BBI, just talk to any Giants fan. They may still like them, but they don't feel the same way they did 12 months ago. And some already want them gone.
Click-baiters got to pay their bills and there's no shortage of Giants fans with an insatiable appetite for anything negative. It's easy money.
How is one 10-minute discussion of Daniel Jones buried in a 90 minute-NFL discussion click bait?
What did they say that is so outlandish? Be specific.
And I get that the central theme going into the 2024 season is what to expect from Daniel Jones so he is bound to dominate discussion and debate. What makes it so infuriating is that everything that can be said has already been said multiple times, but continues to be repeated. It generally starts with someone bashing Jones and it's followed by someone coming to his defense, with the same tired points being laid out ad infinitum by both sides. I've been guilty of it, too, as much as a try to control myself.
I'll argue that a) the majority of the league are in similar spot (whether they realize it or not) b) this does not mean that nothing else matters --like the team can't make progress or move the needle without QB change and c) that this hardly means that 2024 is pointless or the team can't compete.
My first statement does not translate to a,b, and c. Yet that's the contention by many here. It's a false narrative but supported by many, which is why no conversation is allowed to take place without turning it into a discussion about the QB.
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That's not happening. I'd applaud it, but that's not how John Mara runs the Giants. Payton runs the Broncos and he's able to do what he wants. The Giants aren't that cutthroat.
I get it, but then don't write that the Giants wanted to move on from Jones. They may have been willing to test the waters, but they weren't committed to it.
Schoen passed on Wilson, passed on a cheap deal for Fields, signed Lock and made sure he said the company line that he was hired as the back-up, couldn't make a deal to buy the Pats's spot, he passed on the other three big prospects, never drafted another QB prospect on day two or three, and is now bringing in UDFAs from Wabash college.
Seems pretty clear riding with the 10th highest paid player in the NFL for a sixth season was a high priority.
[quote] they all assume the Giants want to get out of Jones contract and therefore think the Giants would be unhappy if he plays well because that would make it harder for them to move on. The Giants goal is to win, they considered drafting a QB because doubts were raised if Jones was the guy, BUT if Jones reproves that he can win why would the Giants still want to move on?
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They keep making stories up. They have no idea what the Giants feel about DJ. I'm sure the Gmen don't want him to go out there and bomb, that would be a ridiculous strategy on their part. This is the junk these so-called "experts" keep feeding us.
I'll argue that a) the majority of the league are in similar spot (whether they realize it or not) b) this does not mean that nothing else matters --like the team can't make progress or move the needle without QB change and c) that this hardly means that 2024 is pointless or the team can't compete.
My first statement does not translate to a,b, and c. Yet that's the contention by many here. It's a false narrative but supported by many, which is why no conversation is allowed to take place without turning it into a discussion about the QB.
Agreed. I've said for the past week or so the piling on regarding Jones is getting out of hand. However, I don't think this discussion was "piling on." I think it was an honest assessment of the situation. Heck, even one of the panelists said the Giants have done Jones no favors and have basically screwed him up (no different than what Mara has said).
I'm surprised by some of the reaction to this, but I'm starting to suspect based on Milton's comment that many of the people posting in this thread didn't actually watch the video.
Because, like many statements on this board, it's not true.
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
Because, like many statements on this board, it's not true.
The problem is we can't get around a few things that actually did happen:
(1) The Giants did "dumb down" the offense for Jones in 2022 during the period where he started to play better. We all saw it. When they went back to a more conventional offense in 2023, he struggled.
(2) Jones' reluctance to throw the ball down the field is statically proven. So are the results when Taylor and DeVito played with the same group.
(3) Jones hasn't thrown for three touchdowns in one game since 2019. That was five years ago. DeVito plays and he does it immediately.
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Not everything is black or white. The Giants can like Jones to be their QB to start 2024 and it means nothing with regards to 2025.
If they like him to start in 2024 why wouldn't they like him to start in 2025?
Jones, even by his own low standards, was terrible in 2023 AND he tore his ACL. If he stays healthy and puts up a typical Jones year (20 total TDs, 6.7 YPA, offense averages around 20 PPG), why wouldn't he be back in 2025?
You predicted all offseason what you thought the Giants would likely do - sign a cheap vet and run it back with Jones & DeVito. You were right. The Giants were locked into Jones contract in 2024.
The big change is the Giants aren't locked into Jones deal in 2025.
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
Because, like many statements on this board, it's not true.
it is true. Daboll and Kafka designed an offense around this limitation. Please show me where Jones ever consistently read the whole field. He's never done it on a consistent basis his entire career.
- Giants are 4-8 around Thanksgiving
- Jones is injured, Lock and DeVito have both played but failed to distinguish themselves
- Dak and Tua have new contracts
- College QB class isn't exceeding expectations
People are going to want to know what the plan is at QB, and why the situation was allowed to atrophy to this point.
This isn't about Jones anymore.
So, your statement about Jones not needing to play well to stick around is a complete alternate reality.
But it's not, it's based on 2022 where he didn't play great and yet was awarded a contract as if he had played great.
Sure, the Giants supposedly tried to trade for Maye but that doesn't mean they would absolutely try to replace Jones if he puts up another season similar in production to 2022. They might again propose a trade for one particular prospect that they adore, but will they pursue other avenues if that one get blocked, unlike what they did this offseason? There's no reason right now to believe they would.
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In comment 16514496 Blue21 said:
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
Because, like many statements on this board, it's not true.
it is true. Daboll and Kafka designed an offense around this limitation. Please show me where Jones ever consistently read the whole field. He's never done it on a consistent basis his entire career.
You wouldn't know what reading the whole field means if the origin of species depended on it!
- Giants are 4-8 around Thanksgiving
- Jones is injured, Lock and DeVito have both played but failed to distinguish themselves
- Dak and Tua have new contracts
- College QB class isn't exceeding expectations
People are going to want to know what the plan is at QB, and why the situation was allowed to atrophy to this point.
This isn't about Jones anymore.
That was the point of my November article about the risk of tripling down on Jones. The article really wasn't about Jones per se but the inherent risk to Schoen and Daboll. For better or worse, they are taking a huge risk here. Mara can tell them privately "they're safe" but I'm sure he he told Joe Judge the same thing.
Where you and I differ it I do believe there is a legitimate reason to take Nabers over Penix. However, by doing so, the options are running out.
- Giants are 4-8 around Thanksgiving
- Jones is injured, Lock and DeVito have both played but failed to distinguish themselves
- Dak and Tua have new contracts
- College QB class isn't exceeding expectations
People are going to want to know what the plan is at QB, and why the situation was allowed to atrophy to this point.
This isn't about Jones anymore.
That will pave the way to Belichick if it's that bleak. I think that would be the Mara pivot. As Lombardi says, there comes a time where owners need to buy credibility.
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In comment 16514496 Blue21 said:
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
Because, like many statements on this board, it's not true.
The problem is we can't get around a few things that actually did happen:
(1) The Giants did "dumb down" the offense for Jones in 2022 during the period where he started to play better. We all saw it. When they went back to a more conventional offense in 2023, he struggled.
(2) Jones' reluctance to throw the ball down the field is statically proven. So are the results when Taylor and DeVito played with the same group.
(3) Jones hasn't thrown for three touchdowns in one game since 2019. That was five years ago. DeVito plays and he does it immediately.
To me it seems like the root cause really does come down to Sy's remark in his draft profile that Jones doesn't seem to have a quick mind. It may not be staggeringly bad and it can be mitigated -- we're probably talking about seeing things just a fraction of a second too late.
I'm not saying that is the case. But I would not discount it at this point. You can break a QB mentally and physically.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
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I expect the conversation to shift away from Jones and towards management by the end of this calendar year. Here's a realistic scenario:
- Giants are 4-8 around Thanksgiving
- Jones is injured, Lock and DeVito have both played but failed to distinguish themselves
- Dak and Tua have new contracts
- College QB class isn't exceeding expectations
People are going to want to know what the plan is at QB, and why the situation was allowed to atrophy to this point.
This isn't about Jones anymore.
That will pave the way to Belichick if it's that bleak. I think that would be the Mara pivot. As Lombardi says, there comes a time where owners need to buy credibility.
I'd be surprised if they went after Belichick. If they did it would be infuriating...why didn't they just do it after 2023???
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In comment 16514442 Section331 said:
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In comment 16514410 bw in dc said:
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It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
Huh? I think you have it twisted. Daniel Jones is the poster child of opportunity cost. Passing on opportunities to keep Jones installed as starter, simply because he cost a high first, has sapped the Giants of a lot of possible upside. Passing on Penix, JJM, and Nix, to retain Jones, is a disaster of opportunity cost. Those three prospects have much higher ceilings than Jones. That's opportunity cost.
I was referring to the cost of his contract; it is guaranteed for next season, hence no additional opportunity cost. As opposed to spending a high 1st on a QB they may not have been sold on.
Having higher ceilings than Jones is a flawed way to evaluate the opportunity cost. You don't draft them because they are or will be better than Jones; you draft them because you think they can lead you to a SB. Anything else is misspent.
To your first point: Opportunity cost is not how much you pay for something (in money or material). Opportunity cost is about missed opportunity (lost opportunity) because you have pursued a failed or failing strategy. The Giants, as an example, have passed on other opportunities to upgrade the position, because of the extended scholarship given to Daniel Jones.
To your second point, I think you are still unclear about the concept. You say, Having higher ceilings than Jones is a flawed way to evaluate the opportunity cost. Higher ceiling is what it's all about. The aim in the NFL is to win a Super Bowl, or more than one. That's it. Daniel Jones has been in the league 5 years and we now have a hardened idea of what his ceiling is. Look at players as probability vectors. The likelihood that Daniel Jones will ever be a championship QB is an extremely low probability, because we have NFL data that tells us he isn't very good. Plus his floor is pretty bad too as 2023 has shown us. At this moment in time, Penix, JJM and Nix have higher probabilities to become championship QBs. And that's the goal. And their floors are likely not worse than Jones' floor. So passing on QBs with higher Super Bowl probabilities for a QB with a known low Super Bowl probability, is a clear-cut example of an opportunity cost.
When has current ownership demonstrated any strategic thinking? Everything seems to be reactive.
I'm not saying that is the case. But I would not discount it at this point. You can break a QB mentally and physically.
I'm not saying that is the case. But I would not discount it at this point. You can break a QB mentally and physically.
He may be broken, I don't know. Even if he is, the truth is that the Giants drafted a day 3/UDFA level talent #6 overall in 2019, and then paid him after four seasons of poor football. They did so because the owner likes him.
"The Maras want to win, but they don't try to win."
Regardless, the same basic issue has existed since the completion of his rookie season: he doesn't throw TD passes.
He cut down on the mistakes, but the TDs he was throwing his rookie season went away too. Many have argued the two are intimately tied together. Probably. But it is what it is.
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That's not happening. I'd applaud it, but that's not how John Mara runs the Giants. Payton runs the Broncos and he's able to do what he wants. The Giants aren't that cutthroat.
I get it, but then don't write that the Giants wanted to move on from Jones. They may have been willing to test the waters, but they weren't committed to it.
Schoen passed on Wilson, passed on a cheap deal for Fields, signed Lock and made sure he said the company line that he was hired as the back-up, couldn't make a deal to buy the Pats's spot, he passed on the other three big prospects, never drafted another QB prospect on day two or three, and is now bringing in UDFAs from Wabash college.
Seems pretty clear riding with the 10th highest paid player in the NFL for a sixth season was a high priority.
100%, IMO, all this talk, JS stinks and screwed up by not getting a QB in the draft, is wrong. We on this board have to come to the realization that the Giant brain thrust likes, I repeat, likes DJ. They, the pros, are aware DJ could not operate under awful conditions they put him in, now are trying to correct it. With a better surrounding cast, they expect much improved play. To me every move they made points in the direction. Now, if play doesn't improve maybe they're in hot water. Right now, this is the plan, maybe they know more about DJ than we do.
I'm not saying that is the case. But I would not discount it at this point. You can break a QB mentally and physically.
Pat Kirwan mentioned during his radio show last week that he was told by Rams staff that they were blitzing Goff at every practice and were trying to destroy his confidence. It was just an aside, didn’t discuss a motive, but it made me wonder if Wink engaged in similar shenanigans given his pride in the defense kicking the offense’s @ss during practice.
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In comment 16514496 Blue21 said:
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
Because, like many statements on this board, it's not true.
it is true. Daboll and Kafka designed an offense around this limitation. Please show me where Jones ever consistently read the whole field. He's never done it on a consistent basis his entire career.
Maybe they designed that offense around the horrendous OL, and mediocre WRs.
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In comment 16514516 Sean said:
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That's not happening. I'd applaud it, but that's not how John Mara runs the Giants. Payton runs the Broncos and he's able to do what he wants. The Giants aren't that cutthroat.
I get it, but then don't write that the Giants wanted to move on from Jones. They may have been willing to test the waters, but they weren't committed to it.
Schoen passed on Wilson, passed on a cheap deal for Fields, signed Lock and made sure he said the company line that he was hired as the back-up, couldn't make a deal to buy the Pats's spot, he passed on the other three big prospects, never drafted another QB prospect on day two or three, and is now bringing in UDFAs from Wabash college.
Seems pretty clear riding with the 10th highest paid player in the NFL for a sixth season was a high priority.
100%, IMO, all this talk, JS stinks and screwed up by not getting a QB in the draft, is wrong. We on this board have to come to the realization that the Giant brain thrust likes, I repeat, likes DJ. They, the pros, are aware DJ could not operate under awful conditions they put him in, now are trying to correct it. With a better surrounding cast, they expect much improved play. To me every move they made points in the direction. Now, if play doesn't improve maybe they're in hot water. Right now, this is the plan, maybe they know more about DJ than we do.
It is not clear that JS and BD like Daniel Jones. There are plenty of possible alternate explanations for deciding to pass on Penix, JJM, and Nix. Here's one. They may have been warned by Mara that they will get one shot at a highly-drafted QB and unless they have love for the prospect, they shouldn't bother. And that's how you pass on a QB who you might think is better than Daniel Jones, but not good enough. Great being the enemy of good.
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In comment 16514445 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16514442 Section331 said:
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In comment 16514410 bw in dc said:
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It seems very easy to conclude that Schoen made the calculation that Jones was > than Penix, McCarthy and Nix. And it was just a safer bet to give Jones a WR. Otherwise, he would have drafted one of them because he was at least kicking the tires to add a QB by trying to buy the Patriots pick.
I don't see that conclusion at all. Schoen very easily could have thought any or all of those QB's were better than Jones, but still weren't good enough to get us to the next level.
It's about opportunity cost; Jones is a sunk cost, investing in another QB is not. Give Jones a better OL and the most explosive player in the draft. If it works, great; if not, they can address the QB spot next year.
Huh? I think you have it twisted. Daniel Jones is the poster child of opportunity cost. Passing on opportunities to keep Jones installed as starter, simply because he cost a high first, has sapped the Giants of a lot of possible upside. Passing on Penix, JJM, and Nix, to retain Jones, is a disaster of opportunity cost. Those three prospects have much higher ceilings than Jones. That's opportunity cost.
I was referring to the cost of his contract; it is guaranteed for next season, hence no additional opportunity cost. As opposed to spending a high 1st on a QB they may not have been sold on.
Having higher ceilings than Jones is a flawed way to evaluate the opportunity cost. You don't draft them because they are or will be better than Jones; you draft them because you think they can lead you to a SB. Anything else is misspent.
To your first point: Opportunity cost is not how much you pay for something (in money or material). Opportunity cost is about missed opportunity (lost opportunity) because you have pursued a failed or failing strategy. The Giants, as an example, have passed on other opportunities to upgrade the position, because of the extended scholarship given to Daniel Jones.
To your second point, I think you are still unclear about the concept. You say, Having higher ceilings than Jones is a flawed way to evaluate the opportunity cost. Higher ceiling is what it's all about. The aim in the NFL is to win a Super Bowl, or more than one. That's it. Daniel Jones has been in the league 5 years and we now have a hardened idea of what his ceiling is. Look at players as probability vectors. The likelihood that Daniel Jones will ever be a championship QB is an extremely low probability, because we have NFL data that tells us he isn't very good. Plus his floor is pretty bad too as 2023 has shown us. At this moment in time, Penix, JJM and Nix have higher probabilities to become championship QBs. And that's the goal. And their floors are likely not worse than Jones' floor. So passing on QBs with higher Super Bowl probabilities for a QB with a known low Super Bowl probability, is a clear-cut example of an opportunity cost.
I see your point, but look at it from Schoen’s POV - if he passes on Nabers and takes a QB he thinks is a slight upgrade over Jones, he’s just cost himself 3 years to see if that QB can be any good. In that case, the greater likelihood is that the next GM is picking the next QB.
Schoen is kicking the can down the road a bit. Unless the right QB drops in his lap, build the rest of the team, THEN take more risks at the QB position.
McCarthy, Penix, and Nix weren't even considered 1st round talents a couple of months before the draft. QB desperate teams may have forced those picks.
In reality, the entire NFL can't scout QBs worth shit. The odds are one or two of Williams, Daniels, and Maye will bust. And the odds are one of of Penix, McCarthy, and Nix will end up being pretty good.
But taking Nabers (more of a sure thing as a true "blue chip" talent) is defensible.
This isn't about Jones anymore.
Let me caution you on this. This Jones saga is never short on excuses. Hell, even before the draft, Schoen basically granted Jones immunity by saying that the OL was really to blame for the 2023 struggle the team had on offense. Which could easily be construed as Schoen's version of "we've done everything to screw this kid up..."
We enter 2024 with the following: Jones coming off an injury, revamped OL, no Barkley, no Waller (likely), a high drafted, rookie WR, an unproven WR group overall, new lead RB, etc.
So, if Jones struggles early and often, there are going to be a lot of places to divert blame away from Jones.
And whether or not you agree with it, the regime is tying their future to Jones or the possibility that Drew Lock can come to the rescue.
In other words, it's a big deal.
This. There should be no more question about letting Schoen and Daboll "pick their QB." They already did. If signing Jones to that contract is seen as a mistake, it is an unforced error on Schoen and Daboll (unless you believe it was mandated by Mara which I don't).
Schoen is kicking the can down the road a bit. Unless the right QB drops in his lap, build the rest of the team, THEN take more risks at the QB position.
So when the rest of the roster is ready to win, are you suggesting a) the team go through their championship window with a rookie? or b) when all the other pieces are in place, you select the QB in that draft (forcing the pick)?
"Build the rest of the team and then get the QB" is another way of saying "When you need the QB, take the best one available when you are on the clock in the year you need him."
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Schoen is kicking the can down the road a bit. Unless the right QB drops in his lap, build the rest of the team, THEN take more risks at the QB position.
So when the rest of the roster is ready to win, are you suggesting a) the team go through their championship window with a rookie? or b) when all the other pieces are in place, you select the QB in that draft (forcing the pick)?
"Build the rest of the team and then get the QB" is another way of saying "When you need the QB, take the best one available when you are on the clock in the year you need him."
This is an important discussion.
There is a legit thought process even in the draft community about building up the team first before "wasting" the rookie-deal QB years with a bad roster.
However, as you point out, how likely is an inexperience QB going to be able to lead a team to a championship? Mahomes is an outlier.
Tough questions.
It is not clear that JS and BD like Daniel Jones. There are plenty of possible alternate explanations for deciding to pass on Penix, JJM, and Nix. Here's one. They may have been warned by Mara that they will get one shot at a highly-drafted QB and unless they have love for the prospect, they shouldn't bother. And that's how you pass on a QB who you might think is better than Daniel Jones, but not good enough. Great being the enemy of good.
Fair enough.
But it's just as feasible that Schoen (and Daboll) believes that 2023 was less about Jones and more about the other parts because we actually have a record of Schoen saying that.
And they believe that if they can fix those other parts, they can build on Jones, V2022. In other words, 2024 will be giving Jones a second crack at playing without training wheels.
All of this makes me ill. But I'm in a different space with this than many because I believe Schoen is not merely following direct orders from General John.
McCarthy, Penix, and Nix weren't even considered 1st round talents a couple of months before the draft. QB desperate teams may have forced those picks.
In reality, the entire NFL can't scout QBs worth shit. The odds are one or two of Williams, Daniels, and Maye will bust. And the odds are one of of Penix, McCarthy, and Nix will end up being pretty good.
But taking Nabers (more of a sure thing as a true "blue chip" talent) is defensible.
Yes. I love Nabers as a prospect. But I love him a lot more with a top QB. Feels like a luxury pick for the Giants. That's why I say, if one of those next 3 QBs pans out, then we have to take a long hard look at Schoen's tenure. KOC and Payton aren't exactly slouches.
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Well that and the more obvious conclusion:
McCarthy, Penix, and Nix weren't even considered 1st round talents a couple of months before the draft. QB desperate teams may have forced those picks.
In reality, the entire NFL can't scout QBs worth shit. The odds are one or two of Williams, Daniels, and Maye will bust. And the odds are one of of Penix, McCarthy, and Nix will end up being pretty good.
But taking Nabers (more of a sure thing as a true "blue chip" talent) is defensible.
Yes. I love Nabers as a prospect. But I love him a lot more with a top QB. Feels like a luxury pick for the Giants. That's why I say, if one of those next 3 QBs pans out, then we have to take a long hard look at Schoen's tenure. KOC and Payton aren't exactly slouches.
Didn’t KOC miss the playoffs last year and lose to a Daniel Jones led team? Maybe a little success is needed before crowning him, no?
The Giants get this wrong on both ends of the QB life cycle:
1. They have to be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect
2. Once the prospect is drafted they give him a very long leash
That is deeply flawed resource management in today's NFL.
The Giants get this wrong on both ends of the QB life cycle:
1. They have to be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect
2. Once the prospect is drafted they give him a very long leash
That is deeply flawed resource management in today's NFL.
It worked for these SB champions recently:
KC x3
Rams
Bucs
Building a roster is more than just finding a QB.
Overall I don't know who this chic is but she seems fixated on using jones as her main Giants talking points- which has fan appeal but she rarely provides much beyond a basic fan level observation. keep in mind while some major QB's played in the playoffs last year we also saw:
Baker Mayfield
Mason Rudolph
Joe Flacco
Will Levis
Jordan Love (who until last year had not really done much and even lost to the Giants last season)
We act like the league is all made up of SB MVP QB's except the Giants.
Goff was suppose to just be a stop gap in Detroit and Hooker was to be the successor. Now he is the "highest paid" QB ...
Jones has to find a way to trust his OL again and reset his internal clock regarding in regards to pocket presence. At his best so far he actually as spreaded the ball around because he has had no true #1. Waller, Engram, Tate and Golladay were suppose to be the lead "dawg" ... Slayton has been the most consistent "leading" WR for a few years now. Slayton is not a true #1.
2019 - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2019.htm
2020 - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2020.htm
2021 - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2021.htm
2022 - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2022.htm
The OL was poor in all those years.
Jones can get the job done with a good team. Complimentary football ... Let's see what happens with a competent OL and a WR corp that has all the roles truly filled. Not 2s and 3s trying to be 1s and 2s. Actual run blocking TEs to assist the OLs.
Mario and Jim Kelly could not do it all alone. It was not until Peyton had a complete team he won a SB.
Jones may need to be replaced but with a decent supporting cast he has a punchers can.
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to Daniel Jones Interactive.com
every damn day.. another 48 Daniel Jones threads..
Jones is the 10th highest paid player in the NFL and eats up 19% of our 2024 cap as the QB.
He can't stay healthy. And when he has been healthy, the results have mostly been below average.
And now we are in chapter six of the Jones Experience.
What the hell is more interesting than that?
Really we are in chapter 10/11 in the OL saga. 2012 was the last year we had a "viable" OL. In 2013 we draft rookie Justin Pugh, I'm just saying .... Looking back at the starting OL over the years is disheartening.
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Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
You're talking two different things here, let's not confuse them. Giving the contract was a mistake. But as far as the running back with Jones comment goes, what exactly was the championship solution out there for them? Over drafting another QB? Sure, that's we got here, let's try it again. Russ Wilson? Please.
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In comment 16514496 Blue21 said:
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
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In comment 16514501 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16514496 Blue21 said:
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
They don’t believe this. More made up shit from the poster. Do you really think a GM and HC would strap their careers on a QB who is a one read QB?
Of course it does. They would believe Jones injuries are very concerning.
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If the Giants carry three QBs on the 53-man roster this year, does that hint at anything?
Of course it does. They would believe Jones injuries are very concerning.
And the reverse would be true too, right?
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In comment 16514746 Eric from BBI said:
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If the Giants carry three QBs on the 53-man roster this year, does that hint at anything?
Of course it does. They would believe Jones injuries are very concerning.
And the reverse would be true too, right?
Correct.
But maybe I’m naive - unless Jones lights it up this year (doubtful), we will be looking for a QB next year.
And what is interesting is - that QB could be starting in our division this year.
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In comment 16514259 UberAlias said:
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Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
You're talking two different things here, let's not confuse them. Giving the contract was a mistake. But as far as the running back with Jones comment goes, what exactly was the championship solution out there for them? Over drafting another QB? Sure, that's we got here, let's try it again. Russ Wilson? Please.
The plan was already in place when Schoen arrived.
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Taylor (cheap)
'24: Draft pick (cheap)
Instead, it's been:
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Jones/Taylor/DeVito (expensive)
'24: Jones/Lock/DeVito (expensive)
Great job, guys!
The Giants get this wrong on both ends of the QB life cycle:
1. They have to be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect
2. Once the prospect is drafted they give him a very long leash
That is deeply flawed resource management in today's NFL.
This is contradictory. You claim "good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired" yet you fault the Giants for allegedly having to "be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect."
The Giants seem to agree with your assessment that good QBs aren't plentiful, as they chose a top WR prospect over what they felt was the 4th QB in this draft. Yet you also criticize them for not drafting a QB they don't love, just to draft a QB.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Mara laughed when it was suggested that he got the succession plan for Eli right (yes, with former GM Dave Gettleman’s help) and said: “Hey I can’t screw up everything, I gotta get something right.”
Asked what he thought of his quarterback, Steve Tisch smiled and said: “The world.”
Think that impacted the plan?
Link - ( New Window )
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"Build the roster and then get the QB" is not a thing for a very good reason: good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired.
The Giants get this wrong on both ends of the QB life cycle:
1. They have to be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect
2. Once the prospect is drafted they give him a very long leash
That is deeply flawed resource management in today's NFL.
This is contradictory. You claim "good QBs aren't just sitting there waiting to be acquired" yet you fault the Giants for allegedly having to "be in full bloom love to consider drafting the prospect."
The Giants seem to agree with your assessment that good QBs aren't plentiful, as they chose a top WR prospect over what they felt was the 4th QB in this draft. Yet you also criticize them for not drafting a QB they don't love, just to draft a QB.
I think you've got to keep trying until you find one. The league is set up where the benefit of finding the quarterback is greater than it's ever been, but the penalty for missing on a prospect is smaller than it's ever been. I would keep trying, and when you find the guy you pay him.
The Giants don't seem to feel like they need to try very hard.
This front office paid Jones. They also thought Maye was so much better than the other 3 he was worth trading for, but the others weren't worth drafting at 6.
I'd be reevaluating the grading process if I were them.
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In comment 16514640 HomerJones45 said:
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In comment 16514259 UberAlias said:
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Your statement about the SB winning QBs throughout the league is spot on. And this is why I give the Giants credit for passing on a QB after failing to get Maye. You look at the QBs who are going to conference championship games and you either need a great team or a one of a small handful of high level QBs. These people act like reaching for a QB means you are building to win a SB and everyone is doing but NYG. NYG is trying to get a SB worthy QB --not move on from one guy who isn't there to another. No one criticizes Dallas for Dak, as an example, but they're waking up to the fact that he's never going to win them a SB.
Well, we know that sticking with the incumbent and handing him 40 mill a year certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. But, let's run it back so Jones can have another mediocre year, at best, and his ardent supporters (including the owner) can indulge their fantasies again.
Frankly, that list of qb's just proves the abject stupidity of handing Jones that contract and commitment.
You're talking two different things here, let's not confuse them. Giving the contract was a mistake. But as far as the running back with Jones comment goes, what exactly was the championship solution out there for them? Over drafting another QB? Sure, that's we got here, let's try it again. Russ Wilson? Please.
The plan was already in place when Schoen arrived.
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Taylor (cheap)
'24: Draft pick (cheap)
Instead, it's been:
'22: Jones (cheap)
'23: Jones/Taylor/DeVito (expensive)
'24: Jones/Lock/DeVito (expensive)
Great job, guys!
Terps --this is utter nonsense. What draft pick were they going to draft on 24? Unless they somehow would have had a top 3 pick --that wasn't happening. They had their chance. Clearly they didn't see QBs 4 - 6 as answers.
The difference between your two plans here is the DJ contract. But neither plan yields us an answer to the QB position.
That's why some of us are saying Jones might not be going anywhere.
Obviously this is not as good as having a great QB. But the answer we chose is expensive, mediocre, with no upside. That is a real bad answer.
That's why some of us are saying Jones might not be going anywhere.
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
Jones was the same cap hit this year whether starting or holding a clipboard. The money that went to sign Drew Lock could have been earmarked for the top QB available at #6.
That's an exit plan the Giants passed on and it's not at all clear a more attractive one is going to present itself for 2025.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Yeah, paying DJ would be a fucking disaster. Because he will NEVER be consistently good, even if he somehow catches lightning in a bottle and someone stick a horseshoe up his ass for a season resulting in like, idk, 4000 yards and 30 TDs (not even crazy numbers)
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If they didn't see picking one of Penix, McCarthy, or Nix at #6 as a viable alternative, why does anyone think they're going to be in position to draft a quarterback in 2025???
That's why some of us are saying Jones might not be going anywhere.
Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
But I'm not asking the question in the context of Jones being here. I'm just talking about how the Giants approach drafting a QB.
If those three guys aren't good enough for them to draft at #6 why do we think they will draft one next year? The QB options available probably aren't going to be as good, according to everything you hear. And even if they are, who is the guy that will generate the full bloom love necessary for them to make the jump? Quinn Ewers? Carson Beck? It's possible, but the odds seem lower this year than next.
I think it plays out how Jerry said above. Why exercise the "out" in Jones's contact when there's no one worth doing it for?
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In comment 16514509 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16514501 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16514496 Blue21 said:
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
They don’t believe this. More made up shit from the poster. Do you really think a GM and HC would strap their careers on a QB who is a one read QB?
they HAD to pay him and see if he could grow after his first year with dabs. he failed miserably.
I cannot understand how someone could watch 6 fucking years of this QB and still have such an attachment to him. it's so bizarre
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Because his contract has an exit ramp. It didn't this year. Otherwise, just restructure him now and fully commit to him.
Jones was the same cap hit this year whether starting or holding a clipboard. The money that went to sign Drew Lock could have been earmarked for the top QB available at #6.
That's an exit plan the Giants passed on and it's not at all clear a more attractive one is going to present itself for 2025.
Earmarked?
Huh?
You do realize that the draft picks salaries are basically pre determined
Nabers or a QB…..the salary is pretty much the same
That literally makes no sense
I won't take credit - I talked myself out of it by the time the draft rolled around. That Thursday morning I was pretty sure they'd grab a QB. The Nabers pick was the most disappointing moment I've had as a fan since 2018. It was like reliving the Barkley pick. That's what I get for being an optimist with this group of people running the team.
If the contact mattered they're even dumber than I thought. It's clear they just don't get it.
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In comment 16514743 Blue21 said:
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In comment 16514509 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16514501 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16514496 Blue21 said:
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Daboll, Kafka and for that matter Shoen not know this?
They know this.
In fact, how they game-planned him in 2022 confirms this. He wasn't reading the field very much. If his main read wasn't wide open he either tucked and ran or dumped off to a safety valve.
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it. Then shame on them for the contract despite being able to get out of it after this year.
They don’t believe this. More made up shit from the poster. Do you really think a GM and HC would strap their careers on a QB who is a one read QB?
lol of course they wouldn't, which is wyhy they tried to get rid of him this year.
they HAD to pay him and see if he could grow after his first year with dabs. he failed miserably.
I cannot understand how someone could watch 6 fucking years of this QB and still have such an attachment to him. it's so bizarre
They tried to get rid of him? Never saw it, please post.
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I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Anyone who says "xxxx derangement syndrome" is automatically a fucking idiot. But to think that's the "single stupidest line" in sports history really drives home how fucking clueless you are.
Yeah, paying DJ would be a fucking disaster. Because he will NEVER be consistently good, even if he somehow catches lightning in a bottle and someone stick a horseshoe up his ass for a season resulting in like, idk, 4000 yards and 30 TDs (not even crazy numbers)
Sad thing is if he put up those numbers this team would want to retire his number on the spot. When in reality that is the level he needs to perform at to even try to justify that contract.
But I think there is a very good chance he's QB1 in 2025. As a fan, I completely misjudged how they viewed him and handled him this offseason.
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In comment 16514338 HBart said:
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I don't know who these guys are but they have to be BBIers: "The Giants have a problem if Daniel Jones plays too well" Because then they have to extend a guy they don't want to.
That might be the single stupidest line in sports history. And that says a lot.
(Anti) Jones Derangement Syndrome taken to new heights.
Anyone who says "xxxx derangement syndrome" is automatically a fucking idiot. But to think that's the "single stupidest line" in sports history really drives home how fucking clueless you are.
Yeah, paying DJ would be a fucking disaster. Because he will NEVER be consistently good, even if he somehow catches lightning in a bottle and someone stick a horseshoe up his ass for a season resulting in like, idk, 4000 yards and 30 TDs (not even crazy numbers)
Sad thing is if he put up those numbers this team would want to retire his number on the spot. When in reality that is the level he needs to perform at to even try to justify that contract.
But I think there is a very good chance he's QB1 in 2025. As a fan, I completely misjudged how they viewed him and handled him this offseason.
So then why did they try and draft Maye ?
Jones was the same cap hit this year whether starting or holding a clipboard. The money that went to sign Drew Lock could have been earmarked for the top QB available at #6.
That's an exit plan the Giants passed on and it's not at all clear a more attractive one is going to present itself for 2025.
The Jones contract at this point is an excuse for those who think Schoen was somehow hamstrung going into 2024; and, therefore, left no choice but to keep him in some manner.
I know the ship has sailed, but ideally the outcome would have been draft a QB in the lottery, cut Jones as a post-June 1st casualty, and bring in a Lock and/or keep DeVito as insurance.
+1.
She is excellent. I haven't listened to the vid yet but the ones slamming her it appears they've deliberately over-exaggerated her comments and tuned out anything potentially positive she might have said or implied - just so they can go on attack.
And some posters just can't understand the comment "if he does well it's not good . . ." They speak of mediocrity when they make this comment more than likely - as what many on here have tried to explain. But those that don't want to hear any complaints just continue to want to block their ears and lash out to anyone that doesn’t agree with their opinion that Jones deserved another year.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
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that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
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In comment 16514768 KDavies said:
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that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
It’s absolutely 100% true with posters here. They have flat out admitted it.
Great QBs are incredibly hard to find, even when the best ones want to come to your program. They leave soon if great. They need to build simple systems that the next guy up just goes in and plays.
Did you notice Tua got A LOT better once they added Waddle and Hill. Daboll is trying to do a similar thing here. I believe they think Jones will be an above average player in their system. IE a good system QB. Much easier to find than Aaron Rodger’s. They now have an elite playmaker in Nabers but everyone else is explosive. The system is designed to dink and dunk down the field and employ players with separation that create big play on their own.
I believe Daniel Jones VERY capable of throwing short passes at a high completion percentage. If the targets are explosive and excel at separation
I suspect Jones to do MUCH better than most. Making no guarantees but admit to excitement and hope. I see a plan. I don’t love Jones, I just think him capable of executing this offense. Their should be more space for his legs.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
Drawing a conclusion with five years of data isn't hate.
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that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
I've asked this question probably over 20X.
If we needed a QB, and Jones was a free agent on another team, with the same results, would anyone on this board want to sign him?
Anyone?
I never receive an answer on that. And for obvious reasons...
I believe Daniel Jones VERY capable of throwing short passes at a high completion percentage.
He already does that. See Yards per Attempt. They just don't score points with it.
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
Other than maybe 2-3 posters
Who here is actually advocating keeping him here long term?
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
That's a great point. Just mention his name to the fan of another team (and I'm surrounded by them) and they just laugh.
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The disconnect between how some here view Jones & how fan bases of the other 31 teams view DJ is striking.
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
Other than maybe 2-3 posters
Who here is actually advocating keeping him here long term?
This. But it won’t stop from the usual posters sticking with their same boring shtick.
And those people are just as bad as the people who spin BS narratives like…”the team only made a “tepid” effort to get Maye because they still really want Jones….or they weren’t “really all in” on getting another QB because they didn’t any of the QB’s that went after Maye
The BS works both ways
Listen, we're all never going to agree on this. People are in their corners, myself included. The Jones era has been so polarizing & contentious that I just hope it ends for the mental sanity of a lot of people, again including myself.
Listen, we're all never going to agree on this. People are in their corners, myself included. The Jones era has been so polarizing & contentious that I just hope it ends for the mental sanity of a lot of people, again including myself.
I think we both hope that 2024 is the last year for him with the team
Be well man. Gotta tend to kids before heading to man cave for Game 5.
And are uncovered, all pash rushers fall down, prevent defense in the secondary...
Great QBs are incredibly hard to find, even when the best ones want to come to your program. They leave soon if great. They need to build simple systems that the next guy up just goes in and plays.
Did you notice Tua got A LOT better once they added Waddle and Hill. Daboll is trying to do a similar thing here. I believe they think Jones will be an above average player in their system. IE a good system QB. Much easier to find than Aaron Rodger’s. They now have an elite playmaker in Nabers but everyone else is explosive. The system is designed to dink and dunk down the field and employ players with separation that create big play on their own.
I believe Daniel Jones VERY capable of throwing short passes at a high completion percentage. If the targets are explosive and excel at separation
I suspect Jones to do MUCH better than most. Making no guarantees but admit to excitement and hope. I see a plan. I don’t love Jones, I just think him capable of executing this offense. Their should be more space for his legs.
The league has already figured out how to stop the running. Any decent team will make DJ beat them by throwing down the field, and he hasn't shown the ability to consistently do that.
I get Schoen not willing to go QB and taking Nabers. He's not going to lose his job over the Jones contract, that was an organizational decision. Put it this way, does anyone think Schoen had to talk Mara into that contract? No fucking way.
But, taking McCarthy at 6 a year after giving Jones the contract? That's a different story. Maybe was worth the risk. McCarthy wasn't.
I can pull receipts about how people viewed McCarthy here from January - March. And I say that as someone who would've taken him.
And those people are just as bad as the people who spin BS narratives like…”the team only made a “tepid” effort to get Maye because they still really want Jones….or they weren’t “really all in” on getting another QB because they didn’t any of the QB’s that went after Maye
The BS works both ways
I'm going to assume this is - mostly - directed at me.
I said Schoen didn't go balls to the wall to buy the Pats draft spot. His offer seemed more on the low-ball end (IMV). If he truly loved Maye, and thought he was a better long-term solution than Jones, he should have paid the premium.
I've identified that as Plan A: try to move up to select Jones's replacement, but only if a great deal falls into your lap.
If Plan A wasn't executed, I said there was a Plan B in place. And that plan was they were comfortable still moving forward with Jones, so let's not worry about selecting a QB and, instead, buy more offensive talent for Jones.
Not sure why that labeled BS. Seems like a pretty cogent deduction based on the outcome.
Anyway I think it's also worth remembering what Sy's early views are on next year's class: weaker at QB and stronger at WR. If that bears out to be true the Giants only look stupider than they already do. If they actually want to move on from Jones they'll have to force the pick in that weaker draft... remember what Eric said in the pre-draft podcast: "Schoen has to find a QB this offseason or next."
This offseason is now gone. If Jones doesn't play up to that $47M this season Mara, Schoen, and Daboll are going to look like morons and they should be destroyed. Hopefully the TV cameramen will have the presence of mind to focus on those three guys (and not Jones) as the boos rain down.
I can pull receipts about how people viewed McCarthy here from January - March. And I say that as someone who would've taken him.
By all means, pull those receipts.
Make sure you grab the one where I say I'm not a McCarthy guy, but he's more talented than Jones and I would hold me nose and accept it.
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I can pull receipts about how people viewed McCarthy here from January - March. And I say that as someone who would've taken him.
By all means, pull those receipts.
Make sure you grab the one where I say I'm not a McCarthy guy, but he's more talented than Jones and I would hold me nose and accept it.
Again, I agree with you. But, that isn't a ringing endorsement for the player. Especially when you aren't taking advantage of the rookie contract window until 2025/26.
Anyway I think it's also worth remembering what Sy's early views are on next year's class: weaker at QB and stronger at WR. If that bears out to be true the Giants only look stupider than they already do. If they actually want to move on from Jones they'll have to force the pick in that weaker draft... remember what Eric said in the pre-draft podcast: "Schoen has to find a QB this offseason or next."
This offseason is now gone. If Jones doesn't play up to that $47M this season Mara, Schoen, and Daboll are going to look like morons and they should be destroyed. Hopefully the TV cameramen will have the presence of mind to focus on those three guys (and not Jones) as the boos rain down.
I agree with you. This was the year to do it. They'll likely force it next year similar to 2019 and Jones.
My guess is Schoen just didn't want to marry himself to McCarthy and the medicals were too risky with Penix at 6.
Ultimately, avoiding any possible QB controversy and making sure Daniel is comfortable is a huge priority. If we had drafted a guy like Jordan Travis (or his equivalent in any of the 2 prior drafts), fans would be chanting for him when Daniel throws a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 10 for the 5th time in a game. That is not an acceptable situation for the Giants leadership. And again we prioritize Daniel's happiness over the franchise success and the fans.
Ultimately, avoiding any possible QB controversy and making sure Daniel is comfortable is a huge priority. If we had drafted a guy like Jordan Travis (or his equivalent in any of the 2 prior drafts), fans would be chanting for him when Daniel throws a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 10 for the 5th time in a game. That is not an acceptable situation for the Giants leadership. And again we prioritize Daniel's happiness over the franchise success and the fans.
I don't really buy this. Half the fan base already wants Lock to start. There will still be a controversy.
They have not tried. It is unconscionable. If a new owner bought the team tomorrow the first responsible move would be to fire everyone associated with the QB position. Their performance from an evaluation and strategic perspective has been catastrophic.
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And those people are just as bad as the people who spin BS narratives like…”the team only made a “tepid” effort to get Maye because they still really want Jones….or they weren’t “really all in” on getting another QB because they didn’t any of the QB’s that went after Maye
The BS works both ways
I'm going to assume this is - mostly - directed at me.
I said Schoen didn't go balls to the wall to buy the Pats draft spot. His offer seemed more on the low-ball end (IMV). If he truly loved Maye, and thought he was a better long-term solution than Jones, he should have paid the premium.
I've identified that as Plan A: try to move up to select Jones's replacement, but only if a great deal falls into your lap.
If Plan A wasn't executed, I said there was a Plan B in place. And that plan was they were comfortable still moving forward with Jones, so let's not worry about selecting a QB and, instead, buy more offensive talent for Jones.
Not sure why that labeled BS. Seems like a pretty cogent deduction based on the outcome.
You are ASSUMING it was not a strong offer and pushing a narrative that is an assumption
That situation was fascinating.
Thursday, March 14, 2024
Friday, March 15, 2024
“Daniel Jones is the starter of this team. That’s been conveyed to me,” Lock said.
I would love to know the backstory on that...
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In comment 16514668 Eric from BBI said:
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Well that and the more obvious conclusion:
McCarthy, Penix, and Nix weren't even considered 1st round talents a couple of months before the draft. QB desperate teams may have forced those picks.
In reality, the entire NFL can't scout QBs worth shit. The odds are one or two of Williams, Daniels, and Maye will bust. And the odds are one of of Penix, McCarthy, and Nix will end up being pretty good.
But taking Nabers (more of a sure thing as a true "blue chip" talent) is defensible.
Yes. I love Nabers as a prospect. But I love him a lot more with a top QB. Feels like a luxury pick for the Giants. That's why I say, if one of those next 3 QBs pans out, then we have to take a long hard look at Schoen's tenure. KOC and Payton aren't exactly slouches.
Didn’t KOC miss the playoffs last year and lose to a Daniel Jones led team? Maybe a little success is needed before crowning him, no?
Not crowning him, though he did well under McVay. I'm not saying KOC is any better than Daboll, I'm just saying he and Payton know something about QBs.
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I believe Daniel Jones VERY capable of throwing short passes at a high completion percentage.
He already does that. See Yards per Attempt. They just don't score points with it.
Not saying Jones is great. I am interested to see how his skills play in this offense with the player it needs. I don’t love the dude, it just doesn’t ruin my karma knowing he is our QB in 2024.
I still find the angst humorous.
-Shurmur
-Judge
-Garrett
-Daboll
-Gettleman
-Schoen
What's the deal with that? Will Daboll get fired and then the next coach will love him too? It is bizarre. I get it. Nice kid, works hard.
Maybe Schoen/Daboll think they are closer to the Vikings playoff win team than early 2023 results.
Looks great in practice
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.
Looks great in practice
I saw him do it against the Vikings.
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In comment 16514874 fkap said:
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In comment 16514768 KDavies said:
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that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
It’s absolutely 100% true with posters here. They have flat out admitted it.
The below comment in quotes is an im imagination. And you compound it by lying. No poster admitted this in the context it was mentioned. You and others are using the same absurdity to exaggaerate the Mina Kimes video too.
Your insanity/break from reality knows no bounds.
"The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. "
On the Giants it may not. They aren't turning over every stone to win. You said it yourself: they aren't cutthroat. It is a family business run like a family.
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In comment 16514878 giantstock said:
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In comment 16514874 fkap said:
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In comment 16514768 KDavies said:
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that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
It’s absolutely 100% true with posters here. They have flat out admitted it.
The below comment in quotes is an im imagination. And you compound it by lying. No poster admitted this in the context it was mentioned. You and others are using the same absurdity to exaggaerate the Mina Kimes video too.
Your insanity/break from reality knows no bounds.
"The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. "
Three have been many posters who have flat out said they rather anyone but Joens. They have flat out said we should cut him and move on to anyone else. This isn’t a lie.
It’s a straight up fact. The above poster is the president of the anyone but Jones brigade. Ask him yourself.
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In comment 16514884 JT039 said:
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In comment 16514878 giantstock said:
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In comment 16514874 fkap said:
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In comment 16514768 KDavies said:
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that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
It’s absolutely 100% true with posters here. They have flat out admitted it.
The below comment in quotes is an im imagination. And you compound it by lying. No poster admitted this in the context it was mentioned. You and others are using the same absurdity to exaggaerate the Mina Kimes video too.
Your insanity/break from reality knows no bounds.
"The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. "
Three have been many posters who have flat out said they rather anyone but Joens. They have flat out said we should cut him and move on to anyone else. This isn’t a lie.
It’s a straight up fact. The above poster is the president of the anyone but Jones brigade. Ask him yourself.
This is not why I called you a liar. If you want to move the goalposts - then okay. But I was specific regarding the comment regarding "The Hate Club" below. I'm okay though with your amendment. That’s fine- we disagree. “Anyone but Jones” is different than what was said below at the bottom.
Though I get the feeling sometimes that you and the others who back up Jones would take literally a commenting "I'd rather die than gave to go through watching Jones again." The comment just made is hyperbole.
What if you just no longer believe in Jones between his quality of play and his injury history? You guys just want to classify it as hating just as what was some tried in looney way on this thread to slam the video by exaggerating the points that were made.
It really is funny the extreme many of you go through to make excuses for him. For example at the 23 minute mark of the video Mina states to paraphrase that “for Giants fans/ the FO, there are two paths that are GOOD. One is that Joens is bad early so you can move on and not risk his injury issue and the other is IF HE IS ACTUALLY BETTER THAN HE WAS IN 2022.” Instead you and the other Jones apologists have misrepresented the video. Not only are your posts laughable in how hard you try to stick up for Jones but in the manner you mispresent (or support those the misrepresent) something like this video just because you don’t; want to hear anyone shit on Jones.
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"The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. "
The most precious resource an NFL team has is time, a season. Each season is a precious opportunity to compete for a title. And the Giants squander them waiting for Daniel Jones to pop. A player with a low probability to emerge as an elite starter. It is as if they value the Jones experiment more than they value pursuing championships. They behave like it is more important to understand exactly what Jones is, even though he is most likely a journeyman, than to start searching for their Brock Purdy, their Stroud, their next high upside starter. The Giants are presently the most mismanaged team in the league. It's a little hard to take.
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In comment 16515267 giantstock said:
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In comment 16514884 JT039 said:
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In comment 16514878 giantstock said:
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In comment 16514874 fkap said:
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In comment 16514768 KDavies said:
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that it seems that many of the people who criticized Gettleman reaching for Jones, seem to want Schoen to reach for a QB, any QB, regardless of the grade the front office has on them.
The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
This is all a made up invention in your own mind. Keep the imagination flowing.
It’s absolutely 100% true with posters here. They have flat out admitted it.
The below comment in quotes is an im imagination. And you compound it by lying. No poster admitted this in the context it was mentioned. You and others are using the same absurdity to exaggaerate the Mina Kimes video too.
Your insanity/break from reality knows no bounds.
"The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. "
Three have been many posters who have flat out said they rather anyone but Joens. They have flat out said we should cut him and move on to anyone else. This isn’t a lie.
It’s a straight up fact. The above poster is the president of the anyone but Jones brigade. Ask him yourself.
This is not why I called you a liar. If you want to move the goalposts - then okay. But I was specific regarding the comment regarding "The Hate Club" below. I'm okay though with your amendment. That’s fine- we disagree. “Anyone but Jones” is different than what was said below at the bottom.
Though I get the feeling sometimes that you and the others who back up Jones would take literally a commenting "I'd rather die than gave to go through watching Jones again." The comment just made is hyperbole.
What if you just no longer believe in Jones between his quality of play and his injury history? You guys just want to classify it as hating just as what was some tried in looney way on this thread to slam the video by exaggerating the points that were made.
It really is funny the extreme many of you go through to make excuses for him. For example at the 23 minute mark of the video Mina states to paraphrase that “for Giants fans/ the FO, there are two paths that are GOOD. One is that Joens is bad early so you can move on and not risk his injury issue and the other is IF HE IS ACTUALLY BETTER THAN HE WAS IN 2022.” Instead you and the other Jones apologists have misrepresented the video. Not only are your posts laughable in how hard you try to stick up for Jones but in the manner you mispresent (or support those the misrepresent) something like this video just because you don’t; want to hear anyone shit on Jones.
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"The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. "
When have I ever defended Jones? Looks like you’re the liar now. Because I think Jones sucks and I wanted a QB in the draft.
Try better buddy.
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The Hate Club is so blinded by hatred that they have no idea if the lust they're holding for the replacement prospects is genuine or not. All they hold is that DJ must go, so anyone must be better. There's no such thing as a reach if it means DJ is gone. If the grade isn't high enough for the front office, it's because the FO is head over heels in love with DJ. Or they can't evaluate. The Haters have one criterion: Not DJ = worth taking at 6.
Drawing a conclusion with five years of data isn't hate.
Of course it is. The conclusion is that DJ isn't nearly good enough. You hate him as the Giants QB. Scratch the word hate if you want to play the semantics game. How about intense desire to move on? You don't hate him, you just don't like him as QB, to the point that it's imperative we move on. The only other options are he's ok for now, or you like him, both which are views the Don't Like DJ as a QB to the Point of it being Imperative to Move On Club would never hold, or espouse.
But, you missed the entire point I was making.
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The disconnect between how some here view Jones & how fan bases of the other 31 teams view DJ is striking.
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
That's a great point. Just mention his name to the fan of another team (and I'm surrounded by them) and they just laugh.
Didnt they do the same with Eli? Fans are stupid
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Why do certain college programs keep turning out 1st round QBs with spectacular statistics that fail in the NFL?
Great QBs are incredibly hard to find, even when the best ones want to come to your program. They leave soon if great. They need to build simple systems that the next guy up just goes in and plays.
Did you notice Tua got A LOT better once they added Waddle and Hill. Daboll is trying to do a similar thing here. I believe they think Jones will be an above average player in their system. IE a good system QB. Much easier to find than Aaron Rodger’s. They now have an elite playmaker in Nabers but everyone else is explosive. The system is designed to dink and dunk down the field and employ players with separation that create big play on their own.
I believe Daniel Jones VERY capable of throwing short passes at a high completion percentage. If the targets are explosive and excel at separation
I suspect Jones to do MUCH better than most. Making no guarantees but admit to excitement and hope. I see a plan. I don’t love Jones, I just think him capable of executing this offense. Their should be more space for his legs.
The league has already figured out how to stop the running. Any decent team will make DJ beat them by throwing down the field, and he hasn't shown the ability to consistently do that.
They only rushed 3 and were able to sack the QB
-Shurmur
-Judge
-Garrett
-Daboll
-Gettleman
-Schoen
What's the deal with that? Will Daboll get fired and then the next coach will love him too? It is bizarre. I get it. Nice kid, works hard.
Maybe Schoen/Daboll think they are closer to the Vikings playoff win team than early 2023 results.
DG was a poisoned pill
He went for hog mollies and should have been looking for men that could pass block.
THAT REALY FUCKED US UP FOR YEARS
We have been paying the price.
What happened under Judge was a joke, not sure he should be coaching at all.
Jones under Judge I throw away because the entire thing was a ragging dumpster fire of embarrassment.
I judge Jones under Daboll and I have reasonable explanation for what happened last year.
I don’t love the kid, I think he can be a good system QB for what Daboll like to run. I admit, I could be wrong about Jones. I doubt it though. I don’t think is great and don’t think he sucks. Plenty of evidence of that IMO as long as victories matter to you.
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Everyone who walks in the building and works for the Giants seems to love the guy.
-Shurmur
-Judge
-Garrett
-Daboll
-Gettleman
-Schoen
What's the deal with that? Will Daboll get fired and then the next coach will love him too? It is bizarre. I get it. Nice kid, works hard.
Maybe Schoen/Daboll think they are closer to the Vikings playoff win team than early 2023 results.
It is possible Sean. I am going to oversimplify my thinking.
DG was a poisoned pill
He went for hog mollies and should have been looking for men that could pass block.
THAT REALY FUCKED US UP FOR YEARS
We have been paying the price.
What happened under Judge was a joke, not sure he should be coaching at all.
Jones under Judge I throw away because the entire thing was a ragging dumpster fire of embarrassment.
I judge Jones under Daboll and I have reasonable explanation for what happened last year.
I don’t love the kid, I think he can be a good system QB for what Daboll like to run. I admit, I could be wrong about Jones. I doubt it though. I don’t think is great and don’t think he sucks. Plenty of evidence of that IMO as long as victories matter to you.
And he is also an enormous risk, is he not?
And his legs are probably worse now, correct?
And while the OL has improved, how good is the OL projected to be now and in the futture? They still need mroe help. Just becuase the OL is better - doens't mena it is good or will be good. They still need "more" more thna likely which they can get pofc but with a QB that is just "decent" how far are you expectign Giants to go? FIR AN AVG QB YOU NEED A TERRIFC OL NOOT JUST "OK." "OK" is not enough.
If you add up all this - it's "mediocre."
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In comment 16515168 Sean said:
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Everyone who walks in the building and works for the Giants seems to love the guy.
-Shurmur
-Judge
-Garrett
-Daboll
-Gettleman
-Schoen
What's the deal with that? Will Daboll get fired and then the next coach will love him too? It is bizarre. I get it. Nice kid, works hard.
Maybe Schoen/Daboll think they are closer to the Vikings playoff win team than early 2023 results.
It is possible Sean. I am going to oversimplify my thinking.
DG was a poisoned pill
He went for hog mollies and should have been looking for men that could pass block.
THAT REALY FUCKED US UP FOR YEARS
We have been paying the price.
What happened under Judge was a joke, not sure he should be coaching at all.
Jones under Judge I throw away because the entire thing was a ragging dumpster fire of embarrassment.
I judge Jones under Daboll and I have reasonable explanation for what happened last year.
I don’t love the kid, I think he can be a good system QB for what Daboll like to run. I admit, I could be wrong about Jones. I doubt it though. I don’t think is great and don’t think he sucks. Plenty of evidence of that IMO as long as victories matter to you.
And he is also an enormous risk, is he not?
And his legs are probably worse now, correct?
And while the OL has improved, how good is the OL projected to be now and in the futture? They still need mroe help. Just becuase the OL is better - doens't mena it is good or will be good. They still need "more" more thna likely which they can get pofc but with a QB that is just "decent" how far are you expectign Giants to go? FIR AN AVG QB YOU NEED A TERRIFC OL NOOT JUST "OK." "OK" is not enough.
If you add up all this - it's "mediocre."
I mean he is a huge injury risk.
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In comment 16514931 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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The disconnect between how some here view Jones & how fan bases of the other 31 teams view DJ is striking.
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
That's a great point. Just mention his name to the fan of another team (and I'm surrounded by them) and they just laugh.
Didnt they do the same with Eli? Fans are stupid
So if you think Mac Jones sucks, you're wrong because you're stupid?
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In comment 16514941 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 16514931 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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The disconnect between how some here view Jones & how fan bases of the other 31 teams view DJ is striking.
I have non Giant fans in my life & they laugh @ Jones as a QB. Laugh, as in 'I can't believe he's still your QB & the money you're paying him is insane.'
That's a great point. Just mention his name to the fan of another team (and I'm surrounded by them) and they just laugh.
Didnt they do the same with Eli? Fans are stupid
So if you think Mac Jones sucks, you're wrong because you're stupid?
No the real Pats fans are actually pretty smart
Most of the experts don't say this. Very few do.
I'd love for a deep expose into what people see in Jones. I really would. Yeah-as you said Sean-he seems like a nice kid & works hard, but the facts are the facts & he's just not a good QB. Not an attack on his character or whatever, but he's just not good @ the position he plays. & he's gotten more rope than anyone I can ever recall as a Giant. It is beyond weird. While I'm not saying Mara is pulling the strings-he might be, he might not be...I don't know-I wonder if Simms' & Eli's early struggles have created an organizational mindset of, 'Well those guys struggled early & became Super Bowl MVP QBs so maybe Jones can became one too'...I don't know. I really don't.
It's depressing AF that we're going into year fucking six with Jones, but here we are. & unless he balls out this season, I hope he's gone after this season. Hell, I hope the leash on him this fall is short & if he struggles, it's time to hit the bench kid. I'm not saying Lock is some great shake either, but from what I've seen/read...he'll @ least chuck the rock down the field. Jones hasn't done that since his rookie season.
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I'd love for a deep expose into what people see in Jones. I really would. Yeah-as you said Sean-he seems like a nice kid & works hard, but the facts are the facts & he's just not a good QB. Not an attack on his character or whatever, but he's just not good @ the position he plays. & he's gotten more rope than anyone I can ever recall as a Giant. It is beyond weird. While I'm not saying Mara is pulling the strings-he might be, he might not be...I don't know-I wonder if Simms' & Eli's early struggles have created an organizational mindset of, 'Well those guys struggled early & became Super Bowl MVP QBs so maybe Jones can became one too'...I don't know. I really don't.
It's depressing AF that we're going into year fucking six with Jones, but here we are. & unless he balls out this season, I hope he's gone after this season. Hell, I hope the leash on him this fall is short & if he struggles, it's time to hit the bench kid. I'm not saying Lock is some great shake either, but from what I've seen/read...he'll @ least chuck the rock down the field. Jones hasn't done that since his rookie season.
I think the fact that we tried to draft Maye illustrates that this probably his last year here
I’m not sure why people keep overlooking that
Why I think the smokescreen narrative is BS…
Schoen was scouting all of the top QB’s in person last year and in the evaluation phase before the draft they spent a TON of time between workouts and in person visits with all of them except Nix
Their actions speak for themselves
Even if DJ was in on the scam, it has to take a toll. Allowing everyone to think they're done with DJ, while secretly having no intention of moving on, is a dumb idea, and the payoff is minimal.
The smokescreen advocates are unwilling to believe anything other than Giants love DJ, so they spew this garbage to back their narrative.
Precisely. It's not a strategy any normal person would pursue.
"No. They just wanted you to think they were done with Jones. Genius!"
Sixteen of sixteen mock drafts collected at the Huddle Report on the eve of the draft had Giants taking a WR. See link.
The notion that "everyone" thought Giants were moving on from Jones is a strawman.
When the Giants signed Drew Lock in March, my posted response was that the Giants were not going to have Jones, Lock and a first round QB on their roster. And, what do you know, they don't.
link - ( New Window )