The national media is lumping NYG in with the Panthers as the bottom feeders of the league. As I've said, Schoen's actions do not line up with a franchise which is going to be a bottom feeder.
--We can all debate the Jones contract. At most, Schoen thinks he's a franchise QB. At the least, he thinks he's a bridge QB until the right QB comes along. Either way, Schoen is opting for the roster build strategy until the next QB is here.
--Schoen traded a top 40 pick for Brian Burns and immediately gave him a top tier level contract in his position group.
--Schoen invested heavily in the OL through FA.
--NYG spent a total of $221.8M in free agency (ranked 4th among all NFL teams).
--The Giants drafted Malik Nabers who should be a WR1 and was considered the best non QB in the draft by some.
--This regime has now had 3 drafts which should be the foundation of the roster outside of QB.
I cannot believe how many fans here are just casually predicting a 4 win season with a poor roster being the reasoning. That feels like a total cop out. A few weeks ago I made a thread stating I didn't believe Schoen was on the hot seat, but I had the assumption NYG would be competitive, let's say hovering around .500 and "in the hunt" in December.
However, if the Giants are as bad as people think despite the actions Schoen has taken this offseason, I'd be all for another total housecleaning. When Schoen says they are a few players away, that doesn't mean 4-13. That should mean a few players from competing for a NFC title. Not a few players from going .500.
The Giants brand has never been worse imo. They can only get out of it by winning consistently, but another season over by October and this franchise would be in desperate need for any kind of credibility.
TLDR: Schoen's actions in free agency, the draft and trading for Burns do not align with a team that is going to be as bad as many think. The Giants need to be at minimum, competitive and around .500.
I'm actually an optimist (and a DJ fan) but this is why so many people think we'll be bad.
The QB who has started for six of those seasons is back but coming off another major injury. The offense has been bad and they lost Barkley who represented to many outsiders the one "plus" player they had. The defense has been middling to bad for this whole stretch.
Like you said, the Giants brand and reputation is at its lowest point since the Dark Ages. We haven't earned any benefit of the doubt until we start winning games against good teams.
This team will absolutely be competitive if their key players stay healthy..(Thomas, Lawrence, etc.)
The bottom feeder predictions are in fact lazy.
Giants have no one to blame but themselves but analysts and media are fairly lazy and won’t take the time to breakdown how the personnel additions and especially the coaching staff changes can positively affect the team.
1) Daniel Jones is coming off two injuries and isn't very good otherwise
2) Saquon Barkley was the consensus best offensive player on the team, and was replaced by a journeyman
3) The offensive no matter the characters, has been bad for a decade
4) Several coaches were fired, including two coordinators
5) Several veterans in the secondary left and will be replaced by mid-round picks
When the schedule came out in 22, did you see the Giants beating the Titans, Ravens, Green Bay with Rodgers?
Good teams can take a step back, bad teams rise up every year.
I keep seeing posts talking about the "well we could have won two more last year" when in same breath Giants should have lost at least 2-3 they won.
Every week the momentum can change, every season is different.
I think there's optimism here and reason to watch.
All 4 of those games are going to be intense test of the offense - all possess really good defenses.
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Looking at it, I see 6 wins. Of course, there is so much we don’t know yet - how the new FA pieces fit in, how quickly the rookies get up to speed - but I’d be very pleasantly surprised to get a WC bid.
When the schedule came out in 22, did you see the Giants beating the Titans, Ravens, Green Bay with Rodgers?
Good teams can take a step back, bad teams rise up every year.
Very true, like I said, there is a lot about this team we don’t know yet. Things could gel quickly, and we surprise a team or 2, but looking at the schedule, I just don’t see more than 6-7 wins.
1) Daniel Jones is coming off two injuries and isn't very good otherwise
2) Saquon Barkley was the consensus best offensive player on the team, and was replaced by a journeyman
3) The offensive no matter the characters, has been bad for a decade
4) Several coaches were fired, including two coordinators
5) Several veterans in the secondary left and will be replaced by mid-round picks
How does Schoen walk into Mara's office off a 4-13 season after having spent $221M in free agency? The fan base will be angry, or worse apathetic. There will be no QB solution.
Can Schoen remain here under that scenario?
For all the reasons people pointed to the 2022 success as being not the reality, there are at least as many reasons to see 2023 as not a great reflection, but in reverse. Tough schedule, decimated by injuries inflicting critical areas, etc. Once the line stabilized, which it eventually did, the team competed.
They didn't finish as this hopeless mess by any stretch, yet for whatever reason, that's the perception the national media and many of the fans have. Who would think we would finish the year with a one point loss to the Rams and then beating Philly handedly and yet people would walk away thinking the team was terrible. And yes, Philly was in a funk when we beat them. But isn't that what the Giants were in at the beginning of the year? It sure as hell looked like it to me, I don't know what others were watching.
It is an extremely young team, with young GM and young HC entering their third season. This is when you would expect to see some of these draft picks coming into their own. And no, the early looks haven't been great, but there sure has been some flashes. It's not like there hasn't been a pulse there.
I think it just comes down to DJ hate, to be honest. But a lot of that has just gone too far. The DJ haters have officially matched the DJFC in terms of irrationality. And if DJ sucks and refuses to ever throw down field, they will turn it over to Lock who at least we know will give that much. It's not like TT and Cutlets set some massive bar that can't be reached. The team competed with a relatively low level of QB play last year and I see no reason to believe they aren't a lot more talented now.
You want to take a lazy approach and say they are bad until proven otherwise? Fine. But for the record, this current team is 1-1 in terms of good and bad seasons. Throw the DG era and results out the window --those teams say nothing about this one.
Again, it could go either way. But I see more reason to see this team taking a step forward, possibly a big step, than staying still or stepping back. If it doesn't it doesn't, but the idea that there is some intellectual superiority in the believe that this team has the ear marks of one being terrible is nonsense, IMO.
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The national media and fans have the same line of sight on the Giants many of us do on the Chargers (as an example). They see:
1) Daniel Jones is coming off two injuries and isn't very good otherwise
2) Saquon Barkley was the consensus best offensive player on the team, and was replaced by a journeyman
3) The offensive no matter the characters, has been bad for a decade
4) Several coaches were fired, including two coordinators
5) Several veterans in the secondary left and will be replaced by mid-round picks
How does Schoen walk into Mara's office off a 4-13 season after having spent $221M in free agency? The fan base will be angry, or worse apathetic. There will be no QB solution.
Can Schoen remain here under that scenario?
I think Schoen would be more culpable than Daboll. I think many of us overlook what Dabs did with that awful roster last year. You had a bad roster decimated by injuries, and he was still able to coax 6 wins with Tommy Cutlets starting 4 games. He’s a good HC.
If they’re 4-13, I think everyone needs to be worried about their jobs (unless they’re a Mara), but 7-9? My guess is Mara will call it progress and give them another year.
You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?
If I told you that Burrow, Jackson, Hurts & Dak were out for those games then they would instantly be considered winnable
Its the QB
The Giants will only go as far as their QB situation will allow them. For Jones to kind of push Daboll/Schoen back into his corner, he kind of has to will/push this team to another playoff berth this season and in the NFC that looks like a necessary level of 10 wins.
Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results.
The Giants will only go as far as their QB situation will allow them. For Jones to kind of push Daboll/Schoen back into his corner, he kind of has to will/push this team to another playoff berth this season and in the NFC that looks like a necessary level of 10 wins.
Sammo, do you think Schoen survives a 4 win season?
Schoen/Daboll can only do so much working with an antiquated process.
Someone posted recently how the Giants go about finding a QB:
1. Do everything not to draft a QB
2. When you finally do, build excuses to keep him there for at least 5-6 years.
It's a fail-slowly process that cannot work in today's NFL.
Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results.
I'll ask you as well. Should Schoen remain as GM if this is a 4 win season?
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and one with parity - teams that are between a bandwidth window of 5-8 wins really aren't much different.
The Giants will only go as far as their QB situation will allow them. For Jones to kind of push Daboll/Schoen back into his corner, he kind of has to will/push this team to another playoff berth this season and in the NFC that looks like a necessary level of 10 wins.
Sammo, do you think Schoen survives a 4 win season?
I do, but I would not let him if i was the owner.
Defense still has holes but the front 7 should be the strength of the team. Brand new defensive coaching staff and scheme.
Those are legitimate reasons to think this team will be bad.
I'm actually an optimist (and a DJ fan) but this is why so many people think we'll be bad.
That part right there the OL ... has been bad for a really long time. This has people pessimistic so there is a HUGE shadow of doubt. Can't blame people for that, however as you said OL moves were made in FA so in a vacuum of the here and now ... Where those "good" moves? Yes or No. I like both *main* additions, both players have shown to be capable starters in the past are relatively young in age. As for the OL depth picks to help roster churn they get an TBD. Though they have potential and should definitely push our depths to fight harder. We even picked up legit run blocking TEs which I really think is being overlooked since that is not a flashy move.
I think we will be ok with RB by committee for the year. Who knows Grey or Tracey could also seize the moment crazier things have happened. At minimum Singletary can produce the stats Barkley did, he just will not have DCs focusing on him ... that is now Nabers'/Hyatt's/Robinson's as a collective job. Nabers plus Hyatt will force softer coverage. Robinson and Singletary as outlet options is not not "bad" just not great ... good/ok is the correct ranking as I see it.
Nabers solidifies the WR corp. Hyatt, Slayton, Robinson will be just fine being able to play their natural roles given their respective traits and talent level.
Defensively Burn, Dex, Bobby and KT is not a bad foursome to have in the front seven. Azeez if he can stay healthy with less reps is a nice pass rusher to have on rest plays for KT and Burns. Nubin has to be as good as McKinney was as a rookie, that is realistic considering he is the top safety in the whole draft by most scouts, pundits, etc. CB2 is the kink in the 2ndary armor at the moment, another TBD. Will one of the young DTs seize the opportunity and shine ... 2nd TBD on defense.
at the same time, Nabors is a rookie and probably won't be as impactful as Saquon this year (and i mean only this year), the OL still is a weak spot unless JMS and Neal vastly improve, and we lost a lot in the secondary. Not to mention we have a mediocre QB coming back from a serious injury.
So, yeah, looking at this roster whether it is a quick glance from the national media or more interested and in depth followers like us--it stinks for this year. This is a 5-7 win team at best.
1st....they are currently 0-0
If the season does blows up.
How did it happen?
The QB was a disaster...Schoen probably has an out....as Mara probably had input on Jones.....and they investigated upgrading at QB.
Did injuries blow up team....Schoen might have an out.
If "his" players suck.....and nothing worked out.....coaches probably go 1st....but stove is on
2) When Jones was hurt against Miami, the team was total dogshit. Impossibly bad in each phase. But they played well the next 3 games - only a couple lottery ticket probability plays from 3-0. Whatever that said about the team, it locked in a Jones correlation = causation narrative that the LVR game reinforced. And that was that.
3) PFF/Fantasy Points are the lens 90% of fans view the team through.
In any case, the Giants are the 6th worst team in the league until they prove otherwise. I don't think they'll be bad at all. I think given health they'll wash away the stink by Dallas 1. That will be a telling game.
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You don't know why people think we'll be bad?
You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?
How am I not understanding the thread? Your title says, "Why do so many people think NYG will be so bad?" Who cares what Schoen did. Do you think Gettleman didn't do any of the things you said? Do you think Reese didn't? It is extremely common for GMs to spend a lot in FA when their team sucks. Spending money doesn't always equal results. Drafting high in the draft doesn't always equal results. We have been a shit show almost every year for the past decade. What matters is results. Until we see better QB play, until we see better OL play, until we see healthier players, etc. most will be hesitant to saying the team will be good. What I think is you don't understand where this team has been the last decade and what previous GMs have tried to accomplish with the same arguments you are making. They have all failed. Like playing football on the field, most games are lost in the NFL than won. Same goes for GMs. It isn't always about the hits you make, a lot of time it is about the mistakes you make. Paying Jones what they did was a huge mistake. Hanging on to Barkley on the FT and then not trading him was a big mistake. Not trading McKinney at the deadline last year was a mistake. There are many more. Not GM ever bats 1.000 but you cannot have multiple crippling mistakes and expect to survive when your team is not good to begin with. And as for those poster that are saying it is easier to be negative than positive, that depends on the team. When your team has sustained success like the Eagles, Ravens, Chiefs, etc. then it is easy to get excited about your upcoming season. When you are the Giants, what have they given us to be proud of? It is the same as the players on shitty teams getting mad at the fans for booing. Maybe if you played better then we wouldn't boo.
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to improve the team immediately equate to "why would you expect them to be bad?"
Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results.
I'll ask you as well. Should Schoen remain as GM if this is a 4 win season?
The better question is should he remain of this is a 7 win team.
This team is in its window to compete now, but the whole plan feels misaligned because of the.QB situation.
To me a 7 win season is no different than a 4 win season. Both show the Giants are going nowhere.
We have enough talent on the rest of the roster to compete and win 9+ games but if the OL doesn't do it's job it won't matter and we're a ~6 win team.
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You don't know why people think we'll be bad?
You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?
He can't. Frankly the expectation given the moves and decisions they made this offseason should be that this team win a minimum of 9 games.
That's also why the "go get a QB in 2025" philosophy makes no sense to me. It's been made abundantly clear that they need to fall in love with and be in position to draft a QB - but if they're bad enough to do that, nobody involved with building the 2024 Giants should be making that selection.
You don't get to lose 10+ games with a $40 million QB and everything else they've done. Sorry.
One thing to keep in mind is that "the experts" and fans constantly overreact to the last game or last season played.
Media and fans overreacted to 2022 (in a positive way). Media and fans are probably overreacting to 2023 (in a negative way).
Clearly, the main rationale for the Giants to be terrible is the quarterback situation. A close second is the perception that Saquon Barkley was a major loss.
I personally think the growing pains of the new OL and secondary are more important than the loss of Barkley, but we shall see.
If after year 3, they have a top 5 pick and no QB solution I don't see how you run it back with this regime.
This team will absolutely be competitive if their key players stay healthy..(Thomas, Lawrence, etc.)
The bottom feeder predictions are in fact lazy.
Agreed. If we stay relatively healthy and more importantly get decent play out of the OL, we will be a 10 win team, IMO.
The Giants probably lead the NFL in pundit's logical fallacy ratio.
In 2022, we had a crazy weak schedule, got tons of good bounces, turned it over at an unsustainably low rate, and won a lot of close games against mediocre teams. 2023, some of those things reverted.
Everyone who knows anything about football should have expected a worse record in 23.
This year, maybe we are marginally better in a few areas. We are still a below average team with an anemic offense and an OK defense. If things really break our way, we could win 9. If things really go against us, we could win 4.
I care about the Giants being really good or being on a path to being really good. We are not either now. So whether we win on some bounces or lose on some bounces just doesn't matter very much to me. 7 wins, 4 wins, whatever. Now, if we look fundamentally different, that is another story. But I'm not expecting that.
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In comment 16516449 Mike from Ohio said:
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to improve the team immediately equate to "why would you expect them to be bad?"
Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results.
I'll ask you as well. Should Schoen remain as GM if this is a 4 win season?
The better question is should he remain of this is a 7 win team.
This team is in its window to compete now, but the whole plan feels misaligned because of the.QB situation.
To me a 7 win season is no different than a 4 win season. Both show the Giants are going nowhere.
I get you are 1000 confident in your take on Jones and can’t be happy until he is gone..
Good luck with that, maybe you can a cream or something…
If after year 3, they have a top 5 pick and no QB solution I don't see how you run it back with this regime.
I think Schoen has gotten off very easy with the fan base. Even Schoen himself has not held back by throwing shade at Gettleman. It's weak. This is a pivotal year for him imo. I'm not saying he gets fired nor should be fired but people need to be realistic and go with facts and not feelings. This is not a good team and the best players on the team are Gettleman's picks in Dex and Thomas. Now, there is potential here with Burns, Thibs, Neal, JMS, Nabers, Okereke, and Banks but we need to see results. We cannot have a joke of an OL again. We cannot have a joke of QB play again. We need an identity.
Too many posters here every day are negative on this team. Quite frankly, it becomes contagious and that is why I try to look for information only. I guess Eric has no problem with the tone here. The constant whining and complaining makes me question whether people are real fans. Winning arguments is not my thing.
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If the Giants go 4-13, I think it's clear Daboll is gone. But, I don't see how Schoen can sell any sort of progress to Mara. Also, I can only imagine how awful MetLife stadium will be filled with opposing fans and no QB solution.
Too many posters here every day are negative on this team. Quite frankly, it becomes contagious and that is why I try to look for information only. I guess Eric has no problem with the tone here. The constant whining and complaining makes me question whether people are real fans. Winning arguments is not my thing.
I agree. I don't have a positive outlook on this team until they show some type of improvement. However, I don't post over and over and over again the same things about how bad they are. We get it. The way I am is basically expect the worst but hope for the best. I'd love for Jones to come out this year and just prove everyone wrong and give everyone the finger. Will it happen? Most likely not but I hope it happens.
This is all about getting a QB in 2025. If Jones is average or below we move on next year.
If he somehow crushes it, then the Giants can decide to keep him or trade him.
Their 2024 Draft strategy was plan "B" most likely. They'll give Daboll his QB in 2025. I think these guys are tied to the hip, both stay or both go.
One thing to keep in mind is that "the experts" and fans constantly overreact to the last game or last season played.
Media and fans overreacted to 2022 (in a positive way). Media and fans are probably overreacting to 2023 (in a negative way).
Clearly, the main rationale for the Giants to be terrible is the quarterback situation. A close second is the perception that Saquon Barkley was a major loss.
I personally think the growing pains of the new OL and secondary are more important than the loss of Barkley, but we shall see.
It is kind of odd to point to how much a GM spent as evidence that the team will be good. All GM’s spend, not all teams are good.
I like the off-season the Giants have had. Sure, I would have preferred a QB, but things didn’t fall their way. I think the OL will be competent to decent, but it may take time for them to put it together. OL is arguably the unit that needs the most coordination between players. That takes time.
That’s why I think the time to gel issue is the most critical one. The first 3 games are winnable, a 1-2 or 0-3 start would be borderline catastrophic. And I haven’t even addressed the secondary yet.
Last year with a tougher schedule we won 6 games with a depleted roster and were probably 4 plays away from 9 wins. Do you not think this team is better than last year?
i havent done this but if you looked at win o/u's i would imagine they basically correlate exactly with last year's standings. they arent trying to find the needle in haystack teams who will surprise, they are just balancing the books so that way they are covered knowing there will be a few teams who do surprise bc it happens every year.
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Looking at it, I see 6 wins. Of course, there is so much we don’t know yet - how the new FA pieces fit in, how quickly the rookies get up to speed - but I’d be very pleasantly surprised to get a WC bid.
Last year with a tougher schedule we won 6 games with a depleted roster and were probably 4 plays away from 9 wins. Do you not think this team is better than last year?
4 plays away from 9 wins? I'm not so sure about that, but you could also argue we were 4 plays away from 3 wins. Maybe they get the breaks this year, but I think it's a fallacy to assume they can catch lightning in a bottle like they did in '22.
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In comment 16516430 robbieballs2003 said:
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You don't know why people think we'll be bad?
You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?
How am I not understanding the thread? Your title says, "Why do so many people think NYG will be so bad?" Who cares what Schoen did. Do you think Gettleman didn't do any of the things you said? Do you think Reese didn't? It is extremely common for GMs to spend a lot in FA when their team sucks. Spending money doesn't always equal results. Drafting high in the draft doesn't always equal results. We have been a shit show almost every year for the past decade. What matters is results. Until we see better QB play, until we see better OL play, until we see healthier players, etc. most will be hesitant to saying the team will be good. What I think is you don't understand where this team has been the last decade and what previous GMs have tried to accomplish with the same arguments you are making. They have all failed. Like playing football on the field, most games are lost in the NFL than won. Same goes for GMs. It isn't always about the hits you make, a lot of time it is about the mistakes you make. Paying Jones what they did was a huge mistake. Hanging on to Barkley on the FT and then not trading him was a big mistake. Not trading McKinney at the deadline last year was a mistake. There are many more. Not GM ever bats 1.000 but you cannot have multiple crippling mistakes and expect to survive when your team is not good to begin with. And as for those poster that are saying it is easier to be negative than positive, that depends on the team. When your team has sustained success like the Eagles, Ravens, Chiefs, etc. then it is easy to get excited about your upcoming season. When you are the Giants, what have they given us to be proud of? It is the same as the players on shitty teams getting mad at the fans for booing. Maybe if you played better then we wouldn't boo.
Good post.
Bengals score first over all pick, they make the play-offs.
Jaguars get first pick, they improve.
Texans get second over all pick, they make the play-offs.
Lions picked second in 2022, last season they made the play-offs.
I know this over looks that we made the play-offs the season before last, but last season has put us back where we have been for the past eight seasons or so.
We also play in a tough division.
The consensus among the media is that the Giants will be picking in the top ten again in a years time. Might depend on injuries whether or not that will be true.
This is all about getting a QB in 2025. If Jones is average or below we move on next year.
If he somehow crushes it, then the Giants can decide to keep him or trade him.
Their 2024 Draft strategy was plan "B" most likely. They'll give Daboll his QB in 2025. I think these guys are tied to the hip, both stay or both go.
The fanbase is going to riot with a 4 win season. The only way I see them surviving that is if they quickly pivot away from Jones. Lock may not get them many wins, but watching Jones suck for 17 games would turn even the casual fan who can't name anyone on the OL or DL against BD and JS. The situation would be completely untenable.
If they don't trot him out on that frigging blocked field goal, the entire outlook changes imo.
The Giants screwed up big last year not having depth behind the teams most important player. Hopefully it works out better this year and they can scrap in most games.
They are a very young team with a revamped line coming off a season where they allowed the second most sacks in a season in league history.
They also have a huge hole at QB and their most accomplished back is Devin Singletary who is now on his third team.
Dallas and Dak
Vikings and Cousins (up until last year when he got hurt)
Philly and Hurts
Niners and Purdy
Steelers win 9-10 games per year without a QB on the roster--(now they have 2 guys who were cut)
Titans up until 2022 were winning 10-11 per year with Tannehill
JAguars and LAwrence will be a 10-11 win threat once again in 24. They would have won more games if Tlaw didn't wreck his ankle but many here are convinced he simply sucks. Nope.
This isn't about Jones. Not comparing anyone to him. I am looking at those teams I listed and what do all those QBs have in common? Not one of those QBs was a first rounder except the second coming of Andrew Luck, Peyton and Montana --his name is LAwrence and now everyone thinks he sucks simply because he didn't take off in year 3 perfect linear fashion. He did have a very good year 2.
IN short, people are so wrong so often about so many QBs it's downright hillarious to see so many insist that they know so much today. Nope. You will be fooled again.
But sure, the Giants will be terrible because of one position and one position only. Sure.
If Jones is the franchise QB Schoen/Daboll think he is then ten wins should be expected from this board. That's why Schoen made Jones the 10th highest paid player in the NFL.
So, that's my expectation. On paper, Jones should have better OL, receivers and he's entering that all important sixth year...
Now factor in a QB that has averaged less than 1.5 total TDs (passing AND rushing) per game the past 5 years...
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If the Giants go 4-13, I think it's clear Daboll is gone. But, I don't see how Schoen can sell any sort of progress to Mara. Also, I can only imagine how awful MetLife stadium will be filled with opposing fans and no QB solution.
Too many posters here every day are negative on this team. Quite frankly, it becomes contagious and that is why I try to look for information only. I guess Eric has no problem with the tone here. The constant whining and complaining makes me question whether people are real fans. Winning arguments is not my thing.
Whining and complaining? This has been one of the worst NFL franchises in the past 10 years. Do you expect fans to be happy about watching bad football?
This franchise use to aspire to win super bowls. Now 9 win seasons and wild card wins are praised like championships.
This is a fan discussion forum and most of what this team has done recently has been poor. How could you not expect criticism?
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You don't know why people think we'll be bad?
You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?
its the QB situation
If Jones is the franchise QB Schoen/Daboll think he is then ten wins should be expected from this board. That's why Schoen made Jones the 10th highest paid player in the NFL.
So, that's my expectation. On paper, Jones should have better OL, receivers and he's entering that all important sixth year...
This is really my point. Schoen has dumped a lot of resources into this team.
But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish.
Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.
2) the oline has been terrible
3) defense cannot stop the run and can't get off the field
Do I think they could be better - yes. If Bricillo can get the line even partially fixed, the offense may be decent.
If Bowen can stop the run, the defense may be able to get off the field on 3rd and long.
But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish.
Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.
Yes. And last I checked the Giants were +15000 to win the Super Bowl, ranked 28th or 29th.
But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish.
Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.
They are based on what they believe bettors will do. Yes they have a decent idea of how a team will play, no doubt. Is it scientific? No it is based on trying to get people to place bets and extracting money vs paying out.
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I hope they don't suck.
But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish.
Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.
They are based on what they believe bettors will do. Yes they have a decent idea of how a team will play, no doubt. Is it scientific? No it is based on trying to get people to place bets and extracting money vs paying out.
Yes, and bettors think the Giants are one of the worst teams in the league.
How many years are we going to cling to "Hey, you never know"?
This is my point we may have improved meaningfully in the OL but that is not going to change the fact that we still need JMS and Neal to play well and the early (and not so early with regard to Neal) returns are awful. This team stinks and it really isn't even close. Sometimes "groupthink" is reality.
Yikes.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
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In comment 16516731 Dnew15 said:
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I hope they don't suck.
But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish.
Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.
They are based on what they believe bettors will do. Yes they have a decent idea of how a team will play, no doubt. Is it scientific? No it is based on trying to get people to place bets and extracting money vs paying out.
Yes, and bettors think the Giants are one of the worst teams in the league.
How many years are we going to cling to "Hey, you never know"?
Geezus...all I was doing was saying Las Vegas sets betting lines to induce bets. Are the original betting lines set close to reality. I said yes. But it is based on how they expect bettors to lay their money and how the houses can extract money from bettors.
They necessarily need to be somewhat close, of course. But telling people a team will be horrific based on LV is not scientific. It is a guess like all of us.
FWIW, I looked up 2023 and the Giants were 4800/1
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.
These are quite the assumptions.
I guess we are going to see how that plan pans out.
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and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.
IDK - After last year, I think I'm officially in the "anyone is better than Daniel Jones" camp.
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and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.
There was a good discussion on the podcast yesterday on exactly this.
I for one do not think this is a "win now" decision to go with Malik over McCarthy. Never did. This is a build the roster while getting out from underneath Jones' contract decision.
Very good points were made in the podcast that changed my perception.
As discussed a million times previously, you can find QBs in every draft, and only a few, hell maybe even 1 or 2, will end up being good.
Giants did not have the ability to draft Caleb Williams or Drake Maye. They offered a trade for Maye, and it was declined. Chicago was taking Williams.
So...what then? Just take Bo Nix or JJ McCarthy if they don't think they fit the grade? That would be an even worse scenario than passing on a QB all together.
Instead, they took a WR who they think fit the grade at 6 and a guy who lots of folks think was closer to 1 than 6.
As discussed a million times previously, you can find QBs in every draft, and only a few, hell maybe even 1 or 2, will end up being good.
Giants did not have the ability to draft Caleb Williams or Drake Maye. They offered a trade for Maye, and it was declined. Chicago was taking Williams.
So...what then? Just take Bo Nix or JJ McCarthy if they don't think they fit the grade? That would be an even worse scenario than passing on a QB all together.
Instead, they took a WR who they think fit the grade at 6 and a guy who lots of folks think was closer to 1 than 6.
They put new rims on a car with no engine, and may not be around to put an engine in the car if they oversee a 4 win team
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and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.
I'd argue it'd be a similar outlook, with 2025 and beyond holding more hope than it currently does. McCarthy wouldn't have to be very good to match Jones. Actually if his rookie year were similar to Jones I'd be worried we missed on the pick.
But the way it is now is misaligned, and it's likely that in a few months everyone is going to be pushing to do what they were saying before you couldn't: force the QB.
Big thing will be the progress of the OL/front 7 imv. If those two things are good then they will be in most games. Then it comes down to the 4th QTR execution all around.
I think BD is under a more pressure than JS. NYG have been wrongly soft on GM's in the past but if the OL is terrible again then he may go as well. Mara made some very strong comments being tired of the OL issues. Also mentioned that "we" won a lot of games around here when we had a good one.
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In comment 16516791 aimrocky said:
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and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.
I'd argue it'd be a similar outlook, with 2025 and beyond holding more hope than it currently does. McCarthy wouldn't have to be very good to match Jones. Actually if his rookie year were similar to Jones I'd be worried we missed on the pick.
But the way it is now is misaligned, and it's likely that in a few months everyone is going to be pushing to do what they were saying before you couldn't: force the QB.
And is forcing a QB the right move for 2 or 3 more wins vs getting one that can actually win?
Does winning 8 or 9 games the next 4 years make them more in contention than 6 or 7 with this draft? 9 wins may make the playoffs, yes. But that is all it is. It is not true contention.
I don't disagree that Jones is not the answer. But just getting a guy slightly better is not getting the team to be a real contender, is it.
I certainly don't have an answer. But getting better players when you can is most important.
the OP posits the Giants are improved. Perhaps - time will tell. But until then they prove it on the field, they are a 6 win team with a major question at QB.
That's why the pundits are down on the Giants
- One will be towards the bottom end of the "good QB" stack, like 6-10 range - Stafford, Ryan, Eli, Romo types
- One will be in the middle ground of QBs - good but maybe not good enough- Cousins, Tannehill, Tua types
- One will be a backup/journeyman - Trubisky, Jones, Darnold, Brissett, etc
Which one will be which? Really it's just a guess. And eventually you have to be willing to make that guess.
I don't disagree that Jones is not the answer. But just getting a guy slightly better is not getting the team to be a real contender, is it.
I certainly don't have an answer. But getting better players when you can is most important.
Slightly better at a fraction of the cost is not an insignificant difference.
And again, what's the plan for acquiring a QB who would be much better than Jones, other than losing 13+ games?
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In comment 16516797 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 16516791 aimrocky said:
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and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.
I'd argue it'd be a similar outlook, with 2025 and beyond holding more hope than it currently does. McCarthy wouldn't have to be very good to match Jones. Actually if his rookie year were similar to Jones I'd be worried we missed on the pick.
But the way it is now is misaligned, and it's likely that in a few months everyone is going to be pushing to do what they were saying before you couldn't: force the QB.
And is forcing a QB the right move for 2 or 3 more wins vs getting one that can actually win?
Does winning 8 or 9 games the next 4 years make them more in contention than 6 or 7 with this draft? 9 wins may make the playoffs, yes. But that is all it is. It is not true contention.
I don't disagree that Jones is not the answer. But just getting a guy slightly better is not getting the team to be a real contender, is it.
I certainly don't have an answer. But getting better players when you can is most important.
Why is it forcing when it's a prospect with an unknown ceiling but it's not forcing when it's another year of a known low ceiling in Janiel Dones? It's ok to settle for 5 to 8 wins with JD, but it's not ok to do that with a rookie, who also has the upside to become a champion?
The *don't force the pick* adherents don't have a case. They're just wrong from a game theory perspective. They have no plan to try and win THIS SEASON. They're content to squander this season, and not make any progress at QB that may pay off next season.
Nabers (or whatever non-QB) has a better likelihood of being a good player than JJM (or whatever QB). That is true. Nabers has a better chance of being great, good, useful...every level.
So for the pick itself, it makes some sense. From the broader team building perspective though, you are going to have to pick the QB at some point. You need to have a good QB. And unless you're picking #1 in the right draft, the position player is always going to have a higher likelihood of being good.
I think the floor needs to be around .500.
Nabers (or whatever non-QB) has a better likelihood of being a good player than JJM (or whatever QB). That is true. Nabers has a better chance of being great, good, useful...every level.
So for the pick itself, it makes some sense. From the broader team building perspective though, you are going to have to pick the QB at some point. You need to have a good QB. And unless you're picking #1 in the right draft, the position player is always going to have a higher likelihood of being good.
Yup. The excuses not to draft a QB this year ("Nabers is a 90, McCarthy is an 83") are almost certainly going to exist again next year. So under what conditions will the Giants actually draft a first round quarterback? They've only drafted 2 in 20 years.
I think the floor needs to be around .500.
Does it really matter though? The record? Let's say we get smoked by most of the good teams we play. And we win 2 easy games against bad/injured teams.
Then we play 9 games against mediocre teams where the score is like 20-17 or 17-16. Does it really matter if we go 6-3 or 3-6 in those games?
The *don't force the pick* adherents don't have a case. They're just wrong from a game theory perspective. They have no plan to try and win THIS SEASON. They're content to squander this season, and not make any progress at QB that may pay off next season.
It's an exercise in kicking the can down the road. Sure, they'll say they want to replace the current QB, but then add a boatload of caveats and criteria for actually doing it that make actually doing it extremely difficult.
I'll guarantee you that if we're sitting here next April with the 9th pick in the draft, the same people will be making a case to draft a tackle.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
I'm a competence guy vs a continuity guy. I believe you can use logic rather than be so rgid.
If they passed on the quality QB - in which this was a rich QB Draft- and it loooks like the Giants are nothing more than a mediocre team at best going forward--
why are you accepting mediocrity? Conitnuity should't trump mediocrity.
Why is it forcing when it's a prospect with an unknown ceiling but it's not forcing when it's another year of a known low ceiling in Janiel Dones? It's ok to settle for 5 to 8 wins with JD, but it's not ok to do that with a rookie, who also has the upside to become a champion?
The *don't force the pick* adherents don't have a case. They're just wrong from a game theory perspective. They have no plan to try and win THIS SEASON. They're content to squander this season, and not make any progress at QB that may pay off next season.
It is very easy for you or anyone to sit there on your couch and make up points that are not factually correct(nor incorrect) and cast them as support for your position.
Both methods have very good reasoning. Both are not incorrect.
I could have gone either way with that pick and I would have preferred McCarthy to be honest(actually trade back for more picks with McCarthy).
But to espouse that one method to improve the team is superior to the other is a matter of opinion. Those that wanted a QB think their POV is best. Those that did not think JJM was a viable QB feel Nabers was the correct path.
Even experts will argue over QB first or team first and which is better. I think it is 50/50.
We are an improved team. Drafting Nabers dramatically improves the WR talent. In fact, it is something to be giddy about! The FA acquisition of Burns dramatically adds to our pass rush, but that came at a hefty cost, but probably well worth it.
But of course, that is dependent upon the QB play. Can DJ overcome his shell shock and his injuries? Can he return to his 2022 form or even his rookie season where he was actually good at the deep pass? Those are big maybes, but not an impossibility. If not, that nullifies the Wr improvement for this year, but not the next. We've seen Jones surprise before, so it can be hope for, if not expected.
But of course, DJ is not likely to get over his shell shock season of 2023 if the OL is not vastly improved over last year. This was not addressed during the draft, so one can only hope the change in coaching and the addition of FA vets solidifies this mess of a line. One might also hold out hope beyond hope that Evan Neal is not the bust he appears to be.
And this leads us to the loss of Barkley, who has been replaced by Singletary, who is no Barkley. He's not the RB defenses fear. But, if the OL turns out to be adequate, then the loss of Barkley will sting far less than expected. Maybe Gray, Tracy, Miller, or Corbin surprise us. Once again, though, the running game will be dependent upon how improved the OL turns out to be.
We had a big loss at safety in McKinney, who we couldn't afford to keep, but we did pick up the best safety in the draft in Tyler Nubin. There is some hope that he turns out to be even better than McKinney, but of course, that is not expected.
In summary, it would seem to be a 5 win season coming up, unless the OL gels, and then that makes the QBs and RBs better. With an improved pass rush, and a solid season from Nubin, then this is a team capable of a 10 win season.
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In comment 16516822 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16516797 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 16516791 aimrocky said:
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and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.
I'd argue it'd be a similar outlook, with 2025 and beyond holding more hope than it currently does. McCarthy wouldn't have to be very good to match Jones. Actually if his rookie year were similar to Jones I'd be worried we missed on the pick.
But the way it is now is misaligned, and it's likely that in a few months everyone is going to be pushing to do what they were saying before you couldn't: force the QB.
And is forcing a QB the right move for 2 or 3 more wins vs getting one that can actually win?
Does winning 8 or 9 games the next 4 years make them more in contention than 6 or 7 with this draft? 9 wins may make the playoffs, yes. But that is all it is. It is not true contention.
I don't disagree that Jones is not the answer. But just getting a guy slightly better is not getting the team to be a real contender, is it.
I certainly don't have an answer. But getting better players when you can is most important.
Why is it forcing when it's a prospect with an unknown ceiling but it's not forcing when it's another year of a known low ceiling in Janiel Dones? It's ok to settle for 5 to 8 wins with JD, but it's not ok to do that with a rookie, who also has the upside to become a champion?
The *don't force the pick* adherents don't have a case. They're just wrong from a game theory perspective. They have no plan to try and win THIS SEASON. They're content to squander this season, and not make any progress at QB that may pay off next season.
The upside to become a champion?!? Look, I want Daniel Jones gone, but you are not helping yourself by overselling guys like McCarthy, Nix, and Penix. Of those 3, I thought that McCarthy was in a separate tier higher than Nix and Penix (I thought that there were only 4 QB's worth a 1st Round pick in this draft). That being said, McCarthy is not without his limitations. He played in an offense in college where the running game opened up a lot. If he gets in a 52-49 type game like we had against the Saints when Eli was here how will he perform? When Trey Lance was coming out the lack of reps was a concern and that he never played from behind where a team was depending on him to open things up in order to win. Look how that translated to the NFL. There are peripherals that indicates McCarthy has a greater chance for success than Lance, but to say he is a surefire champion upside is improper.
And it’s not like they signed an all pro lineman and drafted a top 10 one ( or drafted any OLine at all).
But most importantly it’s the QB. He hasn’t proven he can produce multiple touchdowns a game. Add in the loss of Barkley. Where are they getting their points from?
Schoen is casting his lot with Jones and Lock.
Let's hope for our sakes and his that it works out.
I personally believe that the Giants are much better off this season having drafted Nabers instead of a QB. The facts are that the Giants only felt good about 2-3 QBs in the draft. We defilitely know that they felt like nabers was a better option than the other QBs. I think the combination of Jones/Nabers or Lock/Nabers was a better option than any QB in this draft.
Look at our current cap situation, we would be in worse shape if we drafted a QB because we probably would have had to cut Jones and replace him with someone else. Raising the cap dedicated to QB. We already have to restructure some contracts just to operate this season.
I am predicting an 8-10 win season. I think we will go 3-3 in the division and the rest of the schedule isnt as bad as last year. I actually think that we have a good shot to go 2-0 to start the season and possibly 3-0 as Im not sold on the Browns. Then we probably lose against the cowboys and the Seattle game is interesting. Are they the Carroll Seahawks or is the new coach going to fail. I think thats a winable game. The bangals is probably a loss. I think the Eagles game could go either way. If the Eagles get off to a bad start again the pressure could blow that team up without their leaders. The Steelers are always tough but thats a winable game. Washington will be going through growing pains. We should also beat the Panthers. Then the last 5-6 games are the toughest. depending on how the beginning of the season goes we could be sitting very well in the playoff hunt. Maybe the Eagles game at the end is the decider.
To me this team will go where the OL will take us. I think Daboll/Kafka can get us some points if the OL can hold up no matter who is QB. I believe it will be Jones and he will play well with a good OL. Every QB folds under pressure, then constant pressure you lose your confidence. Hopefully Jones can get it back.
That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.
Win now... lol. Well, fucking DUH. What team doesn't want to win now? What the fuck does that even mean? If they don't want to win now I don't want them running the fucking team.
This is the thing that drives me nuts. The overall roster - THE OVERALL ROSTER - has been subpar for 11 of the last 12 years. We have SUCKED at scouting, building depth, building an overall solid team through the draft. This is why we suck. NOT BECAUSE OF ONE POSITION ON THE TEAM.
This team could have well built off of 2022, but we came into the season under-prepared, the defense absolutely SUCKED until about halfway through the season (not sure why barely anyone ever discusses this fact) we made bad roster decisions especially on the OL, and we lost our most important offensive player in the 1st series of the 1st game, which 100% caused the wheels to come off until we stabilized (SOMEWHAT) AFTER week 9 when he came back into the lineup and we added a guard to the OL that was sitting on his couch for a year.
QB is one position and is timing and luck. Scout better, draft better, Build and coach the fucking team. Do that and we'll be a winning team.
No, but when people ask why the Giants are viewed negatively? You read the posts. I am a lot older than you and as a fan since 1956 I do not understand the daily whining that people spew. Is this a generational thing?
The upside to become a champion?!? Look, I want Daniel Jones gone, but you are not helping yourself by overselling guys like McCarthy, Nix, and Penix. Of those 3, I thought that McCarthy was in a separate tier higher than Nix and Penix (I thought that there were only 4 QB's worth a 1st Round pick in this draft). That being said, McCarthy is not without his limitations. He played in an offense in college where the running game opened up a lot. If he gets in a 52-49 type game like we had against the Saints when Eli was here how will he perform? When Trey Lance was coming out the lack of reps was a concern and that he never played from behind where a team was depending on him to open things up in order to win. Look how that translated to the NFL. There are peripherals that indicates McCarthy has a greater chance for success than Lance, but to say he is a surefire champion upside is improper.
I don't think you are reading my posts properly. And maybe I have been unclear. I'm not saying they are championship QBs. I am saying they are probability vectors with championship upside. It could be a 5% chance of being a championship QB. It could be a 40% chance to become a championship QB. We don't know what they will become because there are so many unknowns jumping from college to the NFL. And lesser prospects beat their expectations all the time: Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott, Brock Purdy, CJ Stroud are all QBs who outperformed expectations. A year from now we might be saying, "Why did we think Bo Nix wasn't good?" Or not. The point is we don't know yet. But we have a hardened idea of what Daniel Jones is, and he has a known low ceiling. Whereas Bo Nix can still turn into Drew Brees. Unlikely? Sure. But if he does, Denver joins the club of teams that are perennial playoff contenders. And we'll still have Janiel Dones.
I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position.
Last year was about as ridiculous a disaster out of the gate as you could imagine. Lose all the players you can't afford to lose immediately. That is bad luck, there is no way around it.
It doesn't matter what any of us "think" is going to happen. This should be a solid team given the resource outlay.
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What do you want? This guy?
No, but when people ask why the Giants are viewed negatively? You read the posts. I am a lot older than you and as a fan since 1956 I do not understand the daily whining that people spew. Is this a generational thing?
Saying the team is poorly run and has stunk for years is an observation of fact, not whining.
This implies that you want me to purge people with the "wrong" tone.
I don't understand the desire to pretend that the piss landing on our heads is actually rain.
I don't understand the desire to pretend that the piss landing on our heads is actually rain.
That's what real fans do Terps, and remember to say thank you.
And this went on year after year for 17 years. You learn to try and be objective.
So, at least trying to be objective, I see a team that had trouble stopping the run last season adding a guy who doesn't play the run well, pinning hopes at tackle on a former high draft pick that has not progressed, hiring a couple of cheap free agent guards, a defense that is depending on several rookies in the secondary, a qb room where the starter is the least talented passer and a running back corp that has a journeyman starter that no DC cares about and unproven players as backups. We have no TE. (the kid might turn out good, but te is a difficult position and it is littered with great athletes who failed).
Maybe if all the stars align, everyone stays healthy, all of our good players maintain what they did last year, the rookies all turn out to be good players, we find a qb among the qb room, discover a running game among the flotsam on the roster and our opponents shit the bed, we could sneak into the playoffs. The probabilities are that the stars will not align and we will be in the bottom third of the league.
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What do you want? This guy?
No, but when people ask why the Giants are viewed negatively? You read the posts. I am a lot older than you and as a fan since 1956 I do not understand the daily whining that people spew. Is this a generational thing?
If you've been a fan since 1956, surely you can't be unfamiliar with a generation that whines about everything.
I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position.
I agree that we have seen enough from Jones to know that he is not the QB that will bring you a Super Bowl championship. My disagreement largely centers on what it means to "cycle through unknown QBs." You will not get an objection from me of following the Ron Wolf strategy of using a pick from Round 5 on each year on a QB. On the other hand, if you are taking one in the first round pick you need to do it on a QB that your scouting staff has graded as a first round caliber and you believe their REALISTIC POTENTIAL can be the type of QB you can win with. I am not talking about their best case upside, but what you believe they can do in your system with your coaching staff. The opportunity cost of losing an elite talent at another position for the sake of overdrafting a QB is more pronounced in Round 1. Imagine if we had the other Josh Allen as part of our pass rush rather than having Daniel Jones at QB.
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to add onto my last response.
I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position.
I agree that we have seen enough from Jones to know that he is not the QB that will bring you a Super Bowl championship. My disagreement largely centers on what it means to "cycle through unknown QBs." You will not get an objection from me of following the Ron Wolf strategy of using a pick from Round 5 on each year on a QB. On the other hand, if you are taking one in the first round pick you need to do it on a QB that your scouting staff has graded as a first round caliber and you believe their REALISTIC POTENTIAL can be the type of QB you can win with. I am not talking about their best case upside, but what you believe they can do in your system with your coaching staff. The opportunity cost of losing an elite talent at another position for the sake of overdrafting a QB is more pronounced in Round 1. Imagine if we had the other Josh Allen as part of our pass rush rather than having Daniel Jones at QB.
First of all, if you are going to do a proper analysis of what it means to pass on a 1st round "elite talent" you have to be honest. Many of them don't work out so well - like Evan Neal and Kayvon. What pct of even top-10 picks turn out to be uninspiring? That's part of the calculation. And then if they do hit, they are still far less valuable than a QB upgrade from bad to (just) good.
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In comment 16517053 Darwinian said:
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to add onto my last response.
I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position.
I agree that we have seen enough from Jones to know that he is not the QB that will bring you a Super Bowl championship. My disagreement largely centers on what it means to "cycle through unknown QBs." You will not get an objection from me of following the Ron Wolf strategy of using a pick from Round 5 on each year on a QB. On the other hand, if you are taking one in the first round pick you need to do it on a QB that your scouting staff has graded as a first round caliber and you believe their REALISTIC POTENTIAL can be the type of QB you can win with. I am not talking about their best case upside, but what you believe they can do in your system with your coaching staff. The opportunity cost of losing an elite talent at another position for the sake of overdrafting a QB is more pronounced in Round 1. Imagine if we had the other Josh Allen as part of our pass rush rather than having Daniel Jones at QB.
First of all, if you are going to do a proper analysis of what it means to pass on a 1st round "elite talent" you have to be honest. Many of them don't work out so well - like Evan Neal and Kayvon. What pct of even top-10 picks turn out to be uninspiring? That's part of the calculation. And then if they do hit, they are still far less valuable than a QB upgrade from bad to (just) good.
Kayvon hasn’t worked out so far?
Manhattan analysis
The landscape of the NFL has changed. It is changing. And teams who get the message early. like the Falcons, the 49ers, the Chiefs, the Broncos, the Vikings, will be rewarded. Teams that are slow to adapt, will lose a generation.
And this went on year after year for 17 years. You learn to try and be objective.
So, at least trying to be objective, I see a team that had trouble stopping the run last season adding a guy who doesn't play the run well, pinning hopes at tackle on a former high draft pick that has not progressed, hiring a couple of cheap free agent guards, a defense that is depending on several rookies in the secondary, a qb room where the starter is the least talented passer and a running back corp that has a journeyman starter that no DC cares about and unproven players as backups. We have no TE. (the kid might turn out good, but te is a difficult position and it is littered with great athletes who failed).
Maybe if all the stars align, everyone stays healthy, all of our good players maintain what they did last year, the rookies all turn out to be good players, we find a qb among the qb room, discover a running game among the flotsam on the roster and our opponents shit the bed, we could sneak into the playoffs. The probabilities are that the stars will not align and we will be in the bottom third of the league.
I don't go back quite that far (wasn't born yet in '56), but I've been a fan since the 70s so I have also seen the glory years and the wilderness years. The last 12 years haven't been total wilderness, but closer to that than glory years.
Hoping JS is the one to lead us back into contention, still a lot more upgrades to be made.
Las Vegas says the over and under for 2024 is 6.5 games.
You may not agree with Vegas, but a lot of folks rely on Vegas' opinion.
Based on the schedule, I am seeing a ceiling of 4-6 wins. The floor could easily be this team's worst record in the Super Bowl Era. At this point, I could easily see the team who loses the Munich Bowl getting the first selection in the 2025 draft.
Quote:
In comment 16517053 Darwinian said:
Quote:
to add onto my last response.
I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position.
I agree that we have seen enough from Jones to know that he is not the QB that will bring you a Super Bowl championship. My disagreement largely centers on what it means to "cycle through unknown QBs." You will not get an objection from me of following the Ron Wolf strategy of using a pick from Round 5 on each year on a QB. On the other hand, if you are taking one in the first round pick you need to do it on a QB that your scouting staff has graded as a first round caliber and you believe their REALISTIC POTENTIAL can be the type of QB you can win with. I am not talking about their best case upside, but what you believe they can do in your system with your coaching staff. The opportunity cost of losing an elite talent at another position for the sake of overdrafting a QB is more pronounced in Round 1. Imagine if we had the other Josh Allen as part of our pass rush rather than having Daniel Jones at QB.
First of all, if you are going to do a proper analysis of what it means to pass on a 1st round "elite talent" you have to be honest. Many of them don't work out so well - like Evan Neal and Kayvon. What pct of even top-10 picks turn out to be uninspiring? That's part of the calculation. And then if they do hit, they are still far less valuable than a QB upgrade from bad to (just) good.
Busts happen and so do players who overperform expectations, but if I am comparing two players and one has a second round grade and the other has a first round grade I am taking the latter every time at 6 even if the former happens to be a QB. That is why I would never select Nix or Penix over Nabers. McCarthy was the only one of the three that would have merited consideration based solely on my view. I am not privy to any of the medicals nor do I see other evaluations nor have I interviewed any of the players. Bob McGinn, for example, had scouts who questioned issues of McCarthy's mental toughness. That is something that could only be assessed in interviews and discussions with people at Michigan. I was not a part of that and if there were red flags I can totally see not grading him as a first round player.
I apologize if I am not explaining myself clearly, but my concern is wasting high picks by asking the wrong question of "what does it mean for my team if Player X reaches his best case scenario?" Almost nobody reaches their "best case scenario." This is why you evaluate what a player's realistic upside is. If you are telling me that that is not something you would even want to offer a fifth year option to (which merely being slightly better than Daniel Jones would be) then I do not want that player in Round 1 at all.
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In comment 16517125 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 16517053 Darwinian said:
Quote:
to add onto my last response.
I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position.
I agree that we have seen enough from Jones to know that he is not the QB that will bring you a Super Bowl championship. My disagreement largely centers on what it means to "cycle through unknown QBs." You will not get an objection from me of following the Ron Wolf strategy of using a pick from Round 5 on each year on a QB. On the other hand, if you are taking one in the first round pick you need to do it on a QB that your scouting staff has graded as a first round caliber and you believe their REALISTIC POTENTIAL can be the type of QB you can win with. I am not talking about their best case upside, but what you believe they can do in your system with your coaching staff. The opportunity cost of losing an elite talent at another position for the sake of overdrafting a QB is more pronounced in Round 1. Imagine if we had the other Josh Allen as part of our pass rush rather than having Daniel Jones at QB.
First of all, if you are going to do a proper analysis of what it means to pass on a 1st round "elite talent" you have to be honest. Many of them don't work out so well - like Evan Neal and Kayvon. What pct of even top-10 picks turn out to be uninspiring? That's part of the calculation. And then if they do hit, they are still far less valuable than a QB upgrade from bad to (just) good.
Busts happen and so do players who overperform expectations, but if I am comparing two players and one has a second round grade and the other has a first round grade I am taking the latter every time at 6 even if the former happens to be a QB. That is why I would never select Nix or Penix over Nabers. McCarthy was the only one of the three that would have merited consideration based solely on my view. I am not privy to any of the medicals nor do I see other evaluations nor have I interviewed any of the players. Bob McGinn, for example, had scouts who questioned issues of McCarthy's mental toughness. That is something that could only be assessed in interviews and discussions with people at Michigan. I was not a part of that and if there were red flags I can totally see not grading him as a first round player.
I apologize if I am not explaining myself clearly, but my concern is wasting high picks by asking the wrong question of "what does it mean for my team if Player X reaches his best case scenario?" Almost nobody reaches their "best case scenario." This is why you evaluate what a player's realistic upside is. If you are telling me that that is not something you would even want to offer a fifth year option to (which merely being slightly better than Daniel Jones would be) then I do not want that player in Round 1 at all.
I appreciate your point of view but draft grades are just opinions. They are speculations and representations of what an individual thinks will happen. And when the playing starts the grades are meaningless. In 2022 KT went 5th, Neal went 7th and Brock Purdy went 262nd. Today, if you went to the 49ers and tried to trade those two for Purdy, they likely wouldn't do it. These high draft picks aren't really elite talents until they do it in the NFL. It's just potential.
So we really don't know how good or bad any of these QBs will be. But they're in the conversation. KOC and Payton thought JJM and Nix were first round quality. And I agree that Malik Nabers is likelier to hit than QBs 3 through 6. But Nabers cannot transform a bad team into a good team. Wide receivers don't move the needle enough. All the QBs have a higher chance to transform the New York Giants if they do hit. And from where the Giants presently sit, they are better off taking a player with a higher chance to transform the team, than taking the player with the better chance to hit, in my opinion.
But, I will say, if they had taken a developmental QB after the Nabers selection, at least, I'd be happier.
I think they're good enough between 7-10 to 9-8 to be honest. Assuming the key guys remain relatively healthy.
Quote:
In comment 16517160 Darwinian said:
Quote:
In comment 16517125 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 16517053 Darwinian said:
Quote:
to add onto my last response.
I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position.
I agree that we have seen enough from Jones to know that he is not the QB that will bring you a Super Bowl championship. My disagreement largely centers on what it means to "cycle through unknown QBs." You will not get an objection from me of following the Ron Wolf strategy of using a pick from Round 5 on each year on a QB. On the other hand, if you are taking one in the first round pick you need to do it on a QB that your scouting staff has graded as a first round caliber and you believe their REALISTIC POTENTIAL can be the type of QB you can win with. I am not talking about their best case upside, but what you believe they can do in your system with your coaching staff. The opportunity cost of losing an elite talent at another position for the sake of overdrafting a QB is more pronounced in Round 1. Imagine if we had the other Josh Allen as part of our pass rush rather than having Daniel Jones at QB.
First of all, if you are going to do a proper analysis of what it means to pass on a 1st round "elite talent" you have to be honest. Many of them don't work out so well - like Evan Neal and Kayvon. What pct of even top-10 picks turn out to be uninspiring? That's part of the calculation. And then if they do hit, they are still far less valuable than a QB upgrade from bad to (just) good.
Busts happen and so do players who overperform expectations, but if I am comparing two players and one has a second round grade and the other has a first round grade I am taking the latter every time at 6 even if the former happens to be a QB. That is why I would never select Nix or Penix over Nabers. McCarthy was the only one of the three that would have merited consideration based solely on my view. I am not privy to any of the medicals nor do I see other evaluations nor have I interviewed any of the players. Bob McGinn, for example, had scouts who questioned issues of McCarthy's mental toughness. That is something that could only be assessed in interviews and discussions with people at Michigan. I was not a part of that and if there were red flags I can totally see not grading him as a first round player.
I apologize if I am not explaining myself clearly, but my concern is wasting high picks by asking the wrong question of "what does it mean for my team if Player X reaches his best case scenario?" Almost nobody reaches their "best case scenario." This is why you evaluate what a player's realistic upside is. If you are telling me that that is not something you would even want to offer a fifth year option to (which merely being slightly better than Daniel Jones would be) then I do not want that player in Round 1 at all.
I appreciate your point of view but draft grades are just opinions. They are speculations and representations of what an individual thinks will happen. And when the playing starts the grades are meaningless. In 2022 KT went 5th, Neal went 7th and Brock Purdy went 262nd. Today, if you went to the 49ers and tried to trade those two for Purdy, they likely wouldn't do it. These high draft picks aren't really elite talents until they do it in the NFL. It's just potential.
So we really don't know how good or bad any of these QBs will be. But they're in the conversation. KOC and Payton thought JJM and Nix were first round quality. And I agree that Malik Nabers is likelier to hit than QBs 3 through 6. But Nabers cannot transform a bad team into a good team. Wide receivers don't move the needle enough. All the QBs have a higher chance to transform the New York Giants if they do hit. And from where the Giants presently sit, they are better off taking a player with a higher chance to transform the team, than taking the player with the better chance to hit, in my opinion.
But, I will say, if they had taken a developmental QB after the Nabers selection, at least, I'd be happier.
I will agree on the last point. I would have taken Pratt instead of the LB in Round 6. Hope I am proven wrong, but I think special teams players you could find as UDFA. I personally was not fond of Milton because if the light has not gone on yet with all of the chances he had at major programs why would it suddenly change in the NFL? I thought Pratt's realistic upside was higher.
Based on the schedule, I am seeing a ceiling of 4-6 wins. The floor could easily be this team's worst record in the Super Bowl Era. At this point, I could easily see the team who loses the Munich Bowl getting the first selection in the 2025 draft.
If the Giants are picking first, Schoen has to go imo.
Evan Neal, Wan'Dale Robinson, Cordele Flott, Daniel Bellinger. All key pieces this season and if they can be productive, I feel it hugely benefits Schoen going further. This is his team 100% now.
I will agree on the last point. I would have taken Pratt instead of the LB in Round 6. Hope I am proven wrong, but I think special teams players you could find as UDFA. I personally was not fond of Milton because if the light has not gone on yet with all of the chances he had at major programs why would it suddenly change in the NFL? I thought Pratt's realistic upside was higher.
Glad we could agree on one point, at least. It would have been nice to get one of the later round guys. I don't really care which, I think they are all similar probability plays. Rattler, Pratt, Travis, Milton.
Nabers (or whatever non-QB) has a better likelihood of being a good player than JJM (or whatever QB). That is true. Nabers has a better chance of being great, good, useful...every level.
So for the pick itself, it makes some sense. From the broader team building perspective though, you are going to have to pick the QB at some point. You need to have a good QB. And unless you're picking #1 in the right draft, the position player is always going to have a higher likelihood of being good.
+1.
There's a reason why Goff and Cousins get more money than Amon-Ra even though Brown is "better."
I think the qb will hold his own if the team functions at a reasonable well level. Call me crazy.
And that’s the good part of the team. The offense is even more questionable but that’s why they play the games. We’ll see in a few months.
The Giants might be mediocre or middle of the road this year. But barring another slew of injuries, there is no reason to expect they will be at the bottom of the league. There is reason to hope that with a strong effort, they could have a winning season.
There are some good players on this team.
The cornerstones of the 2022 and 2023 teams were Gettleman acquisitions. Thibs, JMS, Neal, Robinson, Hyatt, Banks, Flott, Ezeudu, Nabers, Nubin, and Phillips were all top 100 picks. Several of those guys need to be above average or better starters to put together a sustained run of winning years.
The Giants might be mediocre or middle of the road this year. But barring another slew of injuries, there is no reason to expect they will be at the bottom of the league. There is reason to hope that with a strong effort, they could have a winning season.
There are some good players on this team.
I think so too. If JSS and banks progress from rookie year and Nabers is a true number 1…. They’re going to win some games.
No. On Offense.
The problems were the OL.
The WR crew.
The TE
The QB.
To only single out the OL is just wrong.
Sad thing is I’m not that optimistic. Even my best case scenario is nothing special. I guess I’m just looking for a shred of something hopeful … I’m not exactly booming with confidence, won’t lie.
All I really want is a quality NYG defense. Just give us that this season. One with staying power.
The next question is: why would someone give up a 1st or 2nd round pick for a guy who has yet to take an NFL snap when they weren't willing to give up a 1st or 2nd round pick for him in the 2023 draft? Not impossible, but not bloody likely.
However, this team got a lot better. The foundation is laid now to where if you can acquire that difference maker at the QB position, they can win quickly.
So much still relies on health, though, and the Giants really had a bad 2023 on that front. Given the injuries to really key players last year, I maintain that Daboll really overachieved with what he had week to week. You just don't see UDFA rookies at QB win hardly at all at the NFL level. This gives me a good vibe that if Schoen can acquire a real talent at QB going into 2025, they can become contenders quickly.
It does feel like the people in charge have real competency.
That said, I thought they should've drafted McCarthy, and if he becomes a franchise QB, failing drafting an equal or better talent in 2025, not taking him will be viewed as a major missed opportunity.
And I absolutely love Nabers, I believe he will be a superlative #1 receiver. Cee Dee Lamb level at least.