Why do so many people think NYG will be so bad?

our biggest problem, the O-line, and we have a QB that few fans – ours or others – believe in, and we still have little to no depth even at positions of strength. Yes, we've improved, but so have other bad teams.

I'm actually an optimist (and a DJ fan) but this is why so many people think we'll be bad.

and even among our friends. The Giants need to perform at a higher level to change that perception (2022 we overachieved and had a 9-7-1 record, which many teams with a history of success would consider mediocre at best).

And since then have only had two winning seasons out of twelve.

The QB who has started for six of those seasons is back but coming off another major injury. The offense has been bad and they lost Barkley who represented to many outsiders the one "plus" player they had. The defense has been middling to bad for this whole stretch.

Like you said, the Giants brand and reputation is at its lowest point since the Dark Ages. We haven't earned any benefit of the doubt until we start winning games against good teams.

If the Giants go 4-13, I think it's clear Daboll is gone. But, I don't see how Schoen can sell any sort of progress to Mara. Also, I can only imagine how awful MetLife stadium will be filled with opposing fans and no QB solution.

This was a playoff team in 22 with horrible talent by comparison.

This team will absolutely be competitive if their key players stay healthy..(Thomas, Lawrence, etc.)

The bottom feeder predictions are in fact lazy.

Looking at it, I see 6 wins. Of course, there is so much we don’t know yet - how the new FA pieces fit in, how quickly the rookies get up to speed - but I’d be very pleasantly surprised to get a WC bid.

than it is to predict being good and be wrong. Always has been, always will be.

Giants have no one to blame but themselves but analysts and media are fairly lazy and won’t take the time to breakdown how the personnel additions and especially the coaching staff changes can positively affect the team.

The national media and fans have the same line of sight on the Giants many of us do on the Chargers (as an example). They see:

1) Daniel Jones is coming off two injuries and isn't very good otherwise

2) Saquon Barkley was the consensus best offensive player on the team, and was replaced by a journeyman

3) The offensive no matter the characters, has been bad for a decade

4) Several coaches were fired, including two coordinators

5) Several veterans in the secondary left and will be replaced by mid-round picks

In comment 16516413 Section331 said:

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Looking at it, I see 6 wins. Of course, there is so much we don’t know yet - how the new FA pieces fit in, how quickly the rookies get up to speed - but I’d be very pleasantly surprised to get a WC bid.

When the schedule came out in 22, did you see the Giants beating the Titans, Ravens, Green Bay with Rodgers?

Good teams can take a step back, bad teams rise up every year.

are also swinging both ways.

I keep seeing posts talking about the "well we could have won two more last year" when in same breath Giants should have lost at least 2-3 they won.

Every week the momentum can change, every season is different.

I think there's optimism here and reason to watch.

against the AFC North and the style of football they play is brutal however.

All 4 of those games are going to be intense test of the offense - all possess really good defenses.

In comment 16516417 bLiTz 2k said:

Quote:

In comment 16516413 Section331 said: Quote: Looking at it, I see 6 wins. Of course, there is so much we don’t know yet - how the new FA pieces fit in, how quickly the rookies get up to speed - but I’d be very pleasantly surprised to get a WC bid. When the schedule came out in 22, did you see the Giants beating the Titans, Ravens, Green Bay with Rodgers? Good teams can take a step back, bad teams rise up every year.

Very true, like I said, there is a lot about this team we don’t know yet. Things could gel quickly, and we surprise a team or 2, but looking at the schedule, I just don’t see more than 6-7 wins.

...Jones is the reason that so many are down on the Giants.

In comment 16516415 christian said:

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The national media and fans have the same line of sight on the Giants many of us do on the Chargers (as an example). They see: 1) Daniel Jones is coming off two injuries and isn't very good otherwise 2) Saquon Barkley was the consensus best offensive player on the team, and was replaced by a journeyman 3) The offensive no matter the characters, has been bad for a decade 4) Several coaches were fired, including two coordinators 5) Several veterans in the secondary left and will be replaced by mid-round picks

How does Schoen walk into Mara's office off a 4-13 season after having spent $221M in free agency? The fan base will be angry, or worse apathetic. There will be no QB solution.

Can Schoen remain here under that scenario?

They can’t beat either Dallas/P and normally, they can’t come close. That, and arguably the worst OL play in the NFL, for years now. Add a QB that can’t stay healthy and when he is, is often traumatized by that OL. Can it get better? It better, soon or we all know what is going to happen.

You don't know why people think we'll be bad?

Only other teams can get better. Everything the Giants do is for naught. It doesn’t matter Schoen has completely overhauled the roster. Being negative about everything is just being realistic. There’s more but this will do for now.

But in terms of candidates for being among the league's worst, I think it's piss poor logic.

For all the reasons people pointed to the 2022 success as being not the reality, there are at least as many reasons to see 2023 as not a great reflection, but in reverse. Tough schedule, decimated by injuries inflicting critical areas, etc. Once the line stabilized, which it eventually did, the team competed.

They didn't finish as this hopeless mess by any stretch, yet for whatever reason, that's the perception the national media and many of the fans have. Who would think we would finish the year with a one point loss to the Rams and then beating Philly handedly and yet people would walk away thinking the team was terrible. And yes, Philly was in a funk when we beat them. But isn't that what the Giants were in at the beginning of the year? It sure as hell looked like it to me, I don't know what others were watching.

It is an extremely young team, with young GM and young HC entering their third season. This is when you would expect to see some of these draft picks coming into their own. And no, the early looks haven't been great, but there sure has been some flashes. It's not like there hasn't been a pulse there.

I think it just comes down to DJ hate, to be honest. But a lot of that has just gone too far. The DJ haters have officially matched the DJFC in terms of irrationality. And if DJ sucks and refuses to ever throw down field, they will turn it over to Lock who at least we know will give that much. It's not like TT and Cutlets set some massive bar that can't be reached. The team competed with a relatively low level of QB play last year and I see no reason to believe they aren't a lot more talented now.

You want to take a lazy approach and say they are bad until proven otherwise? Fine. But for the record, this current team is 1-1 in terms of good and bad seasons. Throw the DG era and results out the window --those teams say nothing about this one.

Again, it could go either way. But I see more reason to see this team taking a step forward, possibly a big step, than staying still or stepping back. If it doesn't it doesn't, but the idea that there is some intellectual superiority in the believe that this team has the ear marks of one being terrible is nonsense, IMO.

In comment 16516428 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16516415 christian said: Quote: The national media and fans have the same line of sight on the Giants many of us do on the Chargers (as an example). They see: 1) Daniel Jones is coming off two injuries and isn't very good otherwise 2) Saquon Barkley was the consensus best offensive player on the team, and was replaced by a journeyman 3) The offensive no matter the characters, has been bad for a decade 4) Several coaches were fired, including two coordinators 5) Several veterans in the secondary left and will be replaced by mid-round picks How does Schoen walk into Mara's office off a 4-13 season after having spent $221M in free agency? The fan base will be angry, or worse apathetic. There will be no QB solution. Can Schoen remain here under that scenario?

I think Schoen would be more culpable than Daboll. I think many of us overlook what Dabs did with that awful roster last year. You had a bad roster decimated by injuries, and he was still able to coax 6 wins with Tommy Cutlets starting 4 games. He’s a good HC.

If they’re 4-13, I think everyone needs to be worried about their jobs (unless they’re a Mara), but 7-9? My guess is Mara will call it progress and give them another year.

In comment 16516430 robbieballs2003 said:

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You don't know why people think we'll be bad?

You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?

The most difficult games on Giants schedule are Ravens, Bengals, Eagles, Cowboys

If I told you that Burrow, Jackson, Hurts & Dak were out for those games then they would instantly be considered winnable

Its the QB

and one with parity - teams that are between a bandwidth window of 5-8 wins really aren't much different.

The Giants will only go as far as their QB situation will allow them. For Jones to kind of push Daboll/Schoen back into his corner, he kind of has to will/push this team to another playoff berth this season and in the NFC that looks like a necessary level of 10 wins.

and every year they are not good

We'll be that bad. As it stands, I'm predicting 7 wins. Both lines are improved... although we've said that about the O-line for years. But it starts there. I think our skill positions have improved. Yes, even with the departure of Barkley. Yes, QB will still be an issue. But I think 7 wins is a reasonable expectation at this point.

to improve the team immediately equate to "why would you expect them to be bad?"

Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results.

In comment 16516440 Sammo85 said:

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and one with parity - teams that are between a bandwidth window of 5-8 wins really aren't much different. The Giants will only go as far as their QB situation will allow them. For Jones to kind of push Daboll/Schoen back into his corner, he kind of has to will/push this team to another playoff berth this season and in the NFC that looks like a necessary level of 10 wins.

Sammo, do you think Schoen survives a 4 win season?

and knows how they bungled the Jones contract situation.

Schoen/Daboll can only do so much working with an antiquated process.

Someone posted recently how the Giants go about finding a QB:

1. Do everything not to draft a QB
2. When you finally do, build excuses to keep him there for at least 5-6 years.

It's a fail-slowly process that cannot work in today's NFL.

In comment 16516449 Mike from Ohio said:

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to improve the team immediately equate to "why would you expect them to be bad?" Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results.

I'll ask you as well. Should Schoen remain as GM if this is a 4 win season?

In comment 16516450 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16516440 Sammo85 said: Quote: and one with parity - teams that are between a bandwidth window of 5-8 wins really aren't much different. The Giants will only go as far as their QB situation will allow them. For Jones to kind of push Daboll/Schoen back into his corner, he kind of has to will/push this team to another playoff berth this season and in the NFC that looks like a necessary level of 10 wins. Sammo, do you think Schoen survives a 4 win season?

I do, but I would not let him if i was the owner.

Bottom tier QB and bottom tier offensive weapons. I hope Nabers will be great but he’s still a rookie. Offensive line needs to prove it can be competent.

Defense still has holes but the front 7 should be the strength of the team. Brand new defensive coaching staff and scheme.

Those are legitimate reasons to think this team will be bad.

In comment 16516404 CT Charlie said:

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our biggest problem, the O-line, and we have a QB that few fans – ours or others – believe in, and we still have little to no depth even at positions of strength. Yes, we've improved, but so have other bad teams. I'm actually an optimist (and a DJ fan) but this is why so many people think we'll be bad.

That part right there the OL ... has been bad for a really long time. This has people pessimistic so there is a HUGE shadow of doubt. Can't blame people for that, however as you said OL moves were made in FA so in a vacuum of the here and now ... Where those "good" moves? Yes or No. I like both *main* additions, both players have shown to be capable starters in the past are relatively young in age. As for the OL depth picks to help roster churn they get an TBD. Though they have potential and should definitely push our depths to fight harder. We even picked up legit run blocking TEs which I really think is being overlooked since that is not a flashy move.

I think we will be ok with RB by committee for the year. Who knows Grey or Tracey could also seize the moment crazier things have happened. At minimum Singletary can produce the stats Barkley did, he just will not have DCs focusing on him ... that is now Nabers'/Hyatt's/Robinson's as a collective job. Nabers plus Hyatt will force softer coverage. Robinson and Singletary as outlet options is not not "bad" just not great ... good/ok is the correct ranking as I see it.

Nabers solidifies the WR corp. Hyatt, Slayton, Robinson will be just fine being able to play their natural roles given their respective traits and talent level.

Defensively Burn, Dex, Bobby and KT is not a bad foursome to have in the front seven. Azeez if he can stay healthy with less reps is a nice pass rusher to have on rest plays for KT and Burns. Nubin has to be as good as McKinney was as a rookie, that is realistic considering he is the top safety in the whole draft by most scouts, pundits, etc. CB2 is the kink in the 2ndary armor at the moment, another TBD. Will one of the young DTs seize the opportunity and shine ... 2nd TBD on defense.

we improved in getting Burns, made marginal but meaningful upgrades to our OL, and Nabors has potential to be a game changing one

at the same time, Nabors is a rookie and probably won't be as impactful as Saquon this year (and i mean only this year), the OL still is a weak spot unless JMS and Neal vastly improve, and we lost a lot in the secondary. Not to mention we have a mediocre QB coming back from a serious injury.

So, yeah, looking at this roster whether it is a quick glance from the national media or more interested and in depth followers like us--it stinks for this year. This is a 5-7 win team at best.

the distrust in the QB room

We have no QB. None.

My answer...

1st....they are currently 0-0

If the season does blows up.

How did it happen?

The QB was a disaster...Schoen probably has an out....as Mara probably had input on Jones.....and they investigated upgrading at QB.

Did injuries blow up team....Schoen might have an out.

If "his" players suck.....and nothing worked out.....coaches probably go 1st....but stove is on

1) Dallas opening night. That debacle is indelibly burned into fans (and media's) brains. Anyone who watched that game would think the Giants were the worst team in the league - maybe the worst team in NFL history - and with good reason.

2) When Jones was hurt against Miami, the team was total dogshit. Impossibly bad in each phase. But they played well the next 3 games - only a couple lottery ticket probability plays from 3-0. Whatever that said about the team, it locked in a Jones correlation = causation narrative that the LVR game reinforced. And that was that.

3) PFF/Fantasy Points are the lens 90% of fans view the team through.

In any case, the Giants are the 6th worst team in the league until they prove otherwise. I don't think they'll be bad at all. I think given health they'll wash away the stink by Dallas 1. That will be a telling game.

In comment 16516437 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16516430 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: You don't know why people think we'll be bad? You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?

How am I not understanding the thread? Your title says, "Why do so many people think NYG will be so bad?" Who cares what Schoen did. Do you think Gettleman didn't do any of the things you said? Do you think Reese didn't? It is extremely common for GMs to spend a lot in FA when their team sucks. Spending money doesn't always equal results. Drafting high in the draft doesn't always equal results. We have been a shit show almost every year for the past decade. What matters is results. Until we see better QB play, until we see better OL play, until we see healthier players, etc. most will be hesitant to saying the team will be good. What I think is you don't understand where this team has been the last decade and what previous GMs have tried to accomplish with the same arguments you are making. They have all failed. Like playing football on the field, most games are lost in the NFL than won. Same goes for GMs. It isn't always about the hits you make, a lot of time it is about the mistakes you make. Paying Jones what they did was a huge mistake. Hanging on to Barkley on the FT and then not trading him was a big mistake. Not trading McKinney at the deadline last year was a mistake. There are many more. Not GM ever bats 1.000 but you cannot have multiple crippling mistakes and expect to survive when your team is not good to begin with. And as for those poster that are saying it is easier to be negative than positive, that depends on the team. When your team has sustained success like the Eagles, Ravens, Chiefs, etc. then it is easy to get excited about your upcoming season. When you are the Giants, what have they given us to be proud of? It is the same as the players on shitty teams getting mad at the fans for booing. Maybe if you played better then we wouldn't boo.

In comment 16516452 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16516449 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: to improve the team immediately equate to "why would you expect them to be bad?" Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results. I'll ask you as well. Should Schoen remain as GM if this is a 4 win season?

The better question is should he remain of this is a 7 win team.

This team is in its window to compete now, but the whole plan feels misaligned because of the.QB situation.

To me a 7 win season is no different than a 4 win season. Both show the Giants are going nowhere.

and it all hinges on the Offensive Line. That is THE NYG "plus" player/group!! A good OL can allow DJ to be a "good" QB and stay on the field(def off), it's that simple. If the OL shits itself like last year the predictions will be correct.

We have enough talent on the rest of the roster to compete and win 9+ games but if the OL doesn't do it's job it won't matter and we're a ~6 win team.

In comment 16516437 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16516430 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: You don't know why people think we'll be bad? You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?

He can't. Frankly the expectation given the moves and decisions they made this offseason should be that this team win a minimum of 9 games.

That's also why the "go get a QB in 2025" philosophy makes no sense to me. It's been made abundantly clear that they need to fall in love with and be in position to draft a QB - but if they're bad enough to do that, nobody involved with building the 2024 Giants should be making that selection.

You don't get to lose 10+ games with a $40 million QB and everything else they've done. Sorry.

the Giants could be a surprise team, or they can suck. I've seen too many Giants seasons go both ways when it was expected they would be bad.

One thing to keep in mind is that "the experts" and fans constantly overreact to the last game or last season played.

Media and fans overreacted to 2022 (in a positive way). Media and fans are probably overreacting to 2023 (in a negative way).

Clearly, the main rationale for the Giants to be terrible is the quarterback situation. A close second is the perception that Saquon Barkley was a major loss.

I personally think the growing pains of the new OL and secondary are more important than the loss of Barkley, but we shall see.

That's all very fair. My title should have been better. My overall point is Schoen has dumped a lot of resources into the team.

If after year 3, they have a top 5 pick and no QB solution I don't see how you run it back with this regime.

In comment 16516412 bLiTz 2k said:

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This was a playoff team in 22 with horrible talent by comparison. This team will absolutely be competitive if their key players stay healthy..(Thomas, Lawrence, etc.) The bottom feeder predictions are in fact lazy.

Agreed. If we stay relatively healthy and more importantly get decent play out of the OL, we will be a 10 win team, IMO.

One national pundit said Nabers will inject some sorely needed speed into the offense. In fact, Hyatt / Slayton / Wandale were one of the fastest WR trios in the league. Diss their overall game if you like, but if there's one thing they're not, it's slow.

The Giants probably lead the NFL in pundit's logical fallacy ratio.

Fundamentally the 2022 and 2023 teams were similar. Anemic offense, OK defense. 2024, I expect to be similar as well.

In 2022, we had a crazy weak schedule, got tons of good bounces, turned it over at an unsustainably low rate, and won a lot of close games against mediocre teams. 2023, some of those things reverted.

Everyone who knows anything about football should have expected a worse record in 23.

This year, maybe we are marginally better in a few areas. We are still a below average team with an anemic offense and an OK defense. If things really break our way, we could win 9. If things really go against us, we could win 4.

I care about the Giants being really good or being on a path to being really good. We are not either now. So whether we win on some bounces or lose on some bounces just doesn't matter very much to me. 7 wins, 4 wins, whatever. Now, if we look fundamentally different, that is another story. But I'm not expecting that.

In comment 16516485 Go Terps said:

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In comment 16516452 Sean said: Quote: In comment 16516449 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: to improve the team immediately equate to "why would you expect them to be bad?" Joe Schoen is trying to build a win now team. No question. However, it is fair to expect that he hasn't succeeded in that. The OP seems to be conflating intent with results. I'll ask you as well. Should Schoen remain as GM if this is a 4 win season? The better question is should he remain of this is a 7 win team. This team is in its window to compete now, but the whole plan feels misaligned because of the.QB situation. To me a 7 win season is no different than a 4 win season. Both show the Giants are going nowhere.

So wrong. Context matters or you have to give Jones credit for 22. Can’t have it both ways. A 7 win season could definitely show growth. What if in the 7 win season they never lose by more than a TD and they lose a few nail biters to the best teams in the league. What if QB has a breakthrough season and it proves we can win with him. Drastically changes the outlook no?

I get you are 1000 confident in your take on Jones and can’t be happy until he is gone..

Good luck with that, maybe you can a cream or something…

They’ll be lucky if they win more than 6 games again. Vegas gives them the 2nd longest odds in the NFC to qualify for the postseason. They have arguably the worst QB room in the league. Mentally I’m ready for another 4-6 win year.

Fixing it with castoff has not worked the third round pick should have been the player Dallas drafted a few picks after us not a nickel back.

I like the fact that the team is finally in a re-building mode, getting younger and filling depth in a lot of positions. But, then I saw the schedule last night. A lot of teams, like Washington and New Orleans for example, have gotten a lot better after the draft. Looking at the schedule, I just don’t see the Giants winning more than 5 games. And, that might be optimistic.

Follow the crowd, especially when led by the media. They don’t consider out lying facts that butt up against the group. I think Vegas over under wins on Giants is 61/2. I would take the over. It’s. Obvious to me this team has improved and could win 9 or 10 if they get some bounces .

In comment 16516498 Sean said:

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That's all very fair. My title should have been better. My overall point is Schoen has dumped a lot of resources into the team. If after year 3, they have a top 5 pick and no QB solution I don't see how you run it back with this regime.

I think Schoen has gotten off very easy with the fan base. Even Schoen himself has not held back by throwing shade at Gettleman. It's weak. This is a pivotal year for him imo. I'm not saying he gets fired nor should be fired but people need to be realistic and go with facts and not feelings. This is not a good team and the best players on the team are Gettleman's picks in Dex and Thomas. Now, there is potential here with Burns, Thibs, Neal, JMS, Nabers, Okereke, and Banks but we need to see results. We cannot have a joke of an OL again. We cannot have a joke of QB play again. We need an identity.

In comment 16516411 Sean said:

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If the Giants go 4-13, I think it's clear Daboll is gone. But, I don't see how Schoen can sell any sort of progress to Mara. Also, I can only imagine how awful MetLife stadium will be filled with opposing fans and no QB solution.

Too many posters here every day are negative on this team. Quite frankly, it becomes contagious and that is why I try to look for information only. I guess Eric has no problem with the tone here. The constant whining and complaining makes me question whether people are real fans. Winning arguments is not my thing.

In comment 16516537 joe48 said:

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In comment 16516411 Sean said: Quote: If the Giants go 4-13, I think it's clear Daboll is gone. But, I don't see how Schoen can sell any sort of progress to Mara. Also, I can only imagine how awful MetLife stadium will be filled with opposing fans and no QB solution. Too many posters here every day are negative on this team. Quite frankly, it becomes contagious and that is why I try to look for information only. I guess Eric has no problem with the tone here. The constant whining and complaining makes me question whether people are real fans. Winning arguments is not my thing.

I agree. I don't have a positive outlook on this team until they show some type of improvement. However, I don't post over and over and over again the same things about how bad they are. We get it. The way I am is basically expect the worst but hope for the best. I'd love for Jones to come out this year and just prove everyone wrong and give everyone the finger. Will it happen? Most likely not but I hope it happens.

I think, the Giants think, they will win 4-8 games with any of their Qbs.

This is all about getting a QB in 2025. If Jones is average or below we move on next year.

If he somehow crushes it, then the Giants can decide to keep him or trade him.

Their 2024 Draft strategy was plan "B" most likely. They'll give Daboll his QB in 2025. I think these guys are tied to the hip, both stay or both go.

In comment 16516492 Eric from BBI said:

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the Giants could be a surprise team, or they can suck. I've seen too many Giants seasons go both ways when it was expected they would be bad. One thing to keep in mind is that "the experts" and fans constantly overreact to the last game or last season played. Media and fans overreacted to 2022 (in a positive way). Media and fans are probably overreacting to 2023 (in a negative way). Clearly, the main rationale for the Giants to be terrible is the quarterback situation. A close second is the perception that Saquon Barkley was a major loss. I personally think the growing pains of the new OL and secondary are more important than the loss of Barkley, but we shall see.

It is kind of odd to point to how much a GM spent as evidence that the team will be good. All GM’s spend, not all teams are good.

I like the off-season the Giants have had. Sure, I would have preferred a QB, but things didn’t fall their way. I think the OL will be competent to decent, but it may take time for them to put it together. OL is arguably the unit that needs the most coordination between players. That takes time.

That’s why I think the time to gel issue is the most critical one. The first 3 games are winnable, a 1-2 or 0-3 start would be borderline catastrophic. And I haven’t even addressed the secondary yet.

In comment 16516413 Section331 said:

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Looking at it, I see 6 wins. Of course, there is so much we don’t know yet - how the new FA pieces fit in, how quickly the rookies get up to speed - but I’d be very pleasantly surprised to get a WC bid.

Last year with a tougher schedule we won 6 games with a depleted roster and were probably 4 plays away from 9 wins. Do you not think this team is better than last year?

we've seen things happen otherwise in the NFL. betting against the giants has been a pretty good bet so people feel even more confident doing it than usual.

i havent done this but if you looked at win o/u's i would imagine they basically correlate exactly with last year's standings. they arent trying to find the needle in haystack teams who will surprise, they are just balancing the books so that way they are covered knowing there will be a few teams who do surprise bc it happens every year.

In comment 16516572 Bruner4329 said:

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In comment 16516413 Section331 said: Quote: Looking at it, I see 6 wins. Of course, there is so much we don’t know yet - how the new FA pieces fit in, how quickly the rookies get up to speed - but I’d be very pleasantly surprised to get a WC bid. Last year with a tougher schedule we won 6 games with a depleted roster and were probably 4 plays away from 9 wins. Do you not think this team is better than last year?

4 plays away from 9 wins? I'm not so sure about that, but you could also argue we were 4 plays away from 3 wins. Maybe they get the breaks this year, but I think it's a fallacy to assume they can catch lightning in a bottle like they did in '22.

It’s a quarterback league and we don’t have a quarterback

In comment 16516482 robbieballs2003 said:

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In comment 16516437 Sean said: Quote: In comment 16516430 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: You don't know why people think we'll be bad? You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13? How am I not understanding the thread? Your title says, "Why do so many people think NYG will be so bad?" Who cares what Schoen did. Do you think Gettleman didn't do any of the things you said? Do you think Reese didn't? It is extremely common for GMs to spend a lot in FA when their team sucks. Spending money doesn't always equal results. Drafting high in the draft doesn't always equal results. We have been a shit show almost every year for the past decade. What matters is results. Until we see better QB play, until we see better OL play, until we see healthier players, etc. most will be hesitant to saying the team will be good. What I think is you don't understand where this team has been the last decade and what previous GMs have tried to accomplish with the same arguments you are making. They have all failed. Like playing football on the field, most games are lost in the NFL than won. Same goes for GMs. It isn't always about the hits you make, a lot of time it is about the mistakes you make. Paying Jones what they did was a huge mistake. Hanging on to Barkley on the FT and then not trading him was a big mistake. Not trading McKinney at the deadline last year was a mistake. There are many more. Not GM ever bats 1.000 but you cannot have multiple crippling mistakes and expect to survive when your team is not good to begin with. And as for those poster that are saying it is easier to be negative than positive, that depends on the team. When your team has sustained success like the Eagles, Ravens, Chiefs, etc. then it is easy to get excited about your upcoming season. When you are the Giants, what have they given us to be proud of? It is the same as the players on shitty teams getting mad at the fans for booing. Maybe if you played better then we wouldn't boo.

Good post.

looking like they have a clue, and then see what happens.

think. They have no idea what is going to happen and neither do I.

But there's a really ironclad cap on wins so long as they have a trash quarterback,

haven't radically improved.
Bengals score first over all pick, they make the play-offs.
Jaguars get first pick, they improve.
Texans get second over all pick, they make the play-offs.
Lions picked second in 2022, last season they made the play-offs.

I know this over looks that we made the play-offs the season before last, but last season has put us back where we have been for the past eight seasons or so.
We also play in a tough division.
The consensus among the media is that the Giants will be picking in the top ten again in a years time. Might depend on injuries whether or not that will be true.

In comment 16516548 upnyg said:

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I think, the Giants think, they will win 4-8 games with any of their Qbs. This is all about getting a QB in 2025. If Jones is average or below we move on next year. If he somehow crushes it, then the Giants can decide to keep him or trade him. Their 2024 Draft strategy was plan "B" most likely. They'll give Daboll his QB in 2025. I think these guys are tied to the hip, both stay or both go.

The fanbase is going to riot with a 4 win season. The only way I see them surviving that is if they quickly pivot away from Jones. Lock may not get them many wins, but watching Jones suck for 17 games would turn even the casual fan who can't name anyone on the OL or DL against BD and JS. The situation would be completely untenable.

Tied with WAS. Bad expectations are reasonable until they show otherwise. Personally, I think they are headed to the low middle of NFL that will see them drafting 12-16 next April. I don’t think that performance will change much until …. Well that is the subject of enough threads already.

The Andrew Thomas injury alone probably was the main reason for at the very least 2-3 losses last year.

If they don't trot him out on that frigging blocked field goal, the entire outlook changes imo.

The Giants screwed up big last year not having depth behind the teams most important player. Hopefully it works out better this year and they can scrap in most games.

This is a 5 win team this year....maybe.

for the last 12 years outside of a couple of fluke seasons where they scratched their way into the playoffs on a wing and a prayer.

They are a very young team with a revamped line coming off a season where they allowed the second most sacks in a season in league history.

They also have a huge hole at QB and their most accomplished back is Devin Singletary who is now on his third team.

yet some of the more consistent teams have QBS that BBI loves to shit on at every turn:

Dallas and Dak
Vikings and Cousins (up until last year when he got hurt)
Philly and Hurts
Niners and Purdy
Steelers win 9-10 games per year without a QB on the roster--(now they have 2 guys who were cut)
Titans up until 2022 were winning 10-11 per year with Tannehill
JAguars and LAwrence will be a 10-11 win threat once again in 24. They would have won more games if Tlaw didn't wreck his ankle but many here are convinced he simply sucks. Nope.


This isn't about Jones. Not comparing anyone to him. I am looking at those teams I listed and what do all those QBs have in common? Not one of those QBs was a first rounder except the second coming of Andrew Luck, Peyton and Montana --his name is LAwrence and now everyone thinks he sucks simply because he didn't take off in year 3 perfect linear fashion. He did have a very good year 2.

IN short, people are so wrong so often about so many QBs it's downright hillarious to see so many insist that they know so much today. Nope. You will be fooled again.

But sure, the Giants will be terrible because of one position and one position only. Sure.

We only play two great QBs - Burrow and LJax.

If Jones is the franchise QB Schoen/Daboll think he is then ten wins should be expected from this board. That's why Schoen made Jones the 10th highest paid player in the NFL.

So, that's my expectation. On paper, Jones should have better OL, receivers and he's entering that all important sixth year...

...for the past 6 years, and now he's gone.

Now factor in a QB that has averaged less than 1.5 total TDs (passing AND rushing) per game the past 5 years...

Improvement in a few areas. But we don't know for sure who the QB is and no matter which one how good he can be. Also on Eric's podcast yesterday they mentioned this team has an average age of about 25 . If that's true then this is a very very young team. Young teams with losing history make mistakes. So we shall see. I m hoping for the best . Anything past 9 wins would be great but I can't see it until we get a whiff of the QB situation.

In comment 16516537 joe48 said:

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In comment 16516411 Sean said: Quote: If the Giants go 4-13, I think it's clear Daboll is gone. But, I don't see how Schoen can sell any sort of progress to Mara. Also, I can only imagine how awful MetLife stadium will be filled with opposing fans and no QB solution. Too many posters here every day are negative on this team. Quite frankly, it becomes contagious and that is why I try to look for information only. I guess Eric has no problem with the tone here. The constant whining and complaining makes me question whether people are real fans. Winning arguments is not my thing.

Whining and complaining? This has been one of the worst NFL franchises in the past 10 years. Do you expect fans to be happy about watching bad football?

This franchise use to aspire to win super bowls. Now 9 win seasons and wild card wins are praised like championships.

This is a fan discussion forum and most of what this team has done recently has been poor. How could you not expect criticism?

In comment 16516437 Sean said:

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In comment 16516430 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: You don't know why people think we'll be bad? You aren't understanding the thread. Schoen spent $221M in free agency. He traded a top 40 pick. He drafted a WR1. He did all that and yet a lot of people casually say they are a bottom 3 team? His actions are mostly win now. How can he sell doing all this and then going 4-13?

its the QB situation

In comment 16516672 bw in dc said:

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We only play two great QBs - Burrow and LJax. If Jones is the franchise QB Schoen/Daboll think he is then ten wins should be expected from this board. That's why Schoen made Jones the 10th highest paid player in the NFL. So, that's my expectation. On paper, Jones should have better OL, receivers and he's entering that all important sixth year...

This is really my point. Schoen has dumped a lot of resources into this team.

Janiel Dones is on the case.

I think we’re in win now mode. I just don’t think we’re all that good. And as much as people might bemoan pointing it out, it starts with the QB position.

The rest really lies with the OL improvement. If they are better then the offense could be "ok", not great, but good enough to be a 500 team. If it works out this way then we are a good QB away from contending.

invest heavily in the OL in free agency. They brought back an average guard and an decent swing and some questionable depth. Nothing that guarantees an improvement in an area that has been awful for years and will hold them back from any improvement. I actually do not see why anyone would be optimistic other than just blind faith which this team has not earned.

I hope they don't suck.

But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish.

Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.

1) Jones isn't it.
2) the oline has been terrible
3) defense cannot stop the run and can't get off the field

Do I think they could be better - yes. If Bricillo can get the line even partially fixed, the offense may be decent.

If Bowen can stop the run, the defense may be able to get off the field on 3rd and long.

In comment 16516731 Dnew15 said:

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I hope they don't suck. But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish. Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.

Yes. And last I checked the Giants were +15000 to win the Super Bowl, ranked 28th or 29th.

In comment 16516731 Dnew15 said:

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I hope they don't suck. But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish. Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing.

They are based on what they believe bettors will do. Yes they have a decent idea of how a team will play, no doubt. Is it scientific? No it is based on trying to get people to place bets and extracting money vs paying out.

that plays a part as well.

They have the worst offensive line in the league until proven differently. A quarterback that has had two significant neck injuries. Wide receiver corps always seem like a strength in May. If history repeats itself, key players including rookies will be injured and lose significant time. There is a history of losing with few exceptions over the last decade.

In comment 16516755 section125 said:

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In comment 16516731 Dnew15 said: Quote: I hope they don't suck. But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish. Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing. They are based on what they believe bettors will do. Yes they have a decent idea of how a team will play, no doubt. Is it scientific? No it is based on trying to get people to place bets and extracting money vs paying out.

Yes, and bettors think the Giants are one of the worst teams in the league.

How many years are we going to cling to "Hey, you never know"?

In comment 16516730 Shirk130 said:

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invest heavily in the OL in free agency. They brought back an average guard and an decent swing and some questionable depth. Nothing that guarantees an improvement in an area that has been awful for years and will hold them back from any improvement. I actually do not see why anyone would be optimistic other than just blind faith which this team has not earned.

This is my point we may have improved meaningfully in the OL but that is not going to change the fact that we still need JMS and Neal to play well and the early (and not so early with regard to Neal) returns are awful. This team stinks and it really isn't even close. Sometimes "groupthink" is reality.

THe NYG have outscored their opponents for the season one time in a ten year stretch.

Yikes.

What do you want? This guy?

and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team.

That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.

In comment 16516776 Go Terps said:

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In comment 16516755 section125 said: Quote: In comment 16516731 Dnew15 said: Quote: I hope they don't suck. But to think anything other than they won't continue to build on their decade long string of ineptitude would be foolish. Forget about the pundits - look at Vegas. They don't make those odds based on feelings or emotions - they know what they're doing. They are based on what they believe bettors will do. Yes they have a decent idea of how a team will play, no doubt. Is it scientific? No it is based on trying to get people to place bets and extracting money vs paying out. Yes, and bettors think the Giants are one of the worst teams in the league. How many years are we going to cling to "Hey, you never know"?

Geezus...all I was doing was saying Las Vegas sets betting lines to induce bets. Are the original betting lines set close to reality. I said yes. But it is based on how they expect bettors to lay their money and how the houses can extract money from bettors.
They necessarily need to be somewhat close, of course. But telling people a team will be horrific based on LV is not scientific. It is a guess like all of us.

FWIW, I looked up 2023 and the Giants were 4800/1

In comment 16516791 aimrocky said:

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and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team. That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.

But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.

In comment 16516728 PatersonPlank said:

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The rest really lies with the OL improvement. If they are better then the offense could be "ok", not great, but good enough to be a 500 team. If it works out this way then we are a good QB away from contending.

These are quite the assumptions.

the "you gotta improve the entire roster than get a QB" approach.

I guess we are going to see how that plan pans out.

In comment 16516797 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 16516791 aimrocky said: Quote: and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team. That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though. But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.

IDK - After last year, I think I'm officially in the "anyone is better than Daniel Jones" camp.

In comment 16516797 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 16516791 aimrocky said: Quote: and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team. That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though. But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.

There was a good discussion on the podcast yesterday on exactly this.

I for one do not think this is a "win now" decision to go with Malik over McCarthy. Never did. This is a build the roster while getting out from underneath Jones' contract decision.
Very good points were made in the podcast that changed my perception.

"QB rich" draft."

As discussed a million times previously, you can find QBs in every draft, and only a few, hell maybe even 1 or 2, will end up being good.

Giants did not have the ability to draft Caleb Williams or Drake Maye. They offered a trade for Maye, and it was declined. Chicago was taking Williams.

So...what then? Just take Bo Nix or JJ McCarthy if they don't think they fit the grade? That would be an even worse scenario than passing on a QB all together.

Instead, they took a WR who they think fit the grade at 6 and a guy who lots of folks think was closer to 1 than 6.

In comment 16516811 ryanmkeane said:

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"QB rich" draft." As discussed a million times previously, you can find QBs in every draft, and only a few, hell maybe even 1 or 2, will end up being good. Giants did not have the ability to draft Caleb Williams or Drake Maye. They offered a trade for Maye, and it was declined. Chicago was taking Williams. So...what then? Just take Bo Nix or JJ McCarthy if they don't think they fit the grade? That would be an even worse scenario than passing on a QB all together. Instead, they took a WR who they think fit the grade at 6 and a guy who lots of folks think was closer to 1 than 6.

They put new rims on a car with no engine, and may not be around to put an engine in the car if they oversee a 4 win team

In comment 16516797 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 16516791 aimrocky said: Quote: and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team. That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though. But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now.

I'd argue it'd be a similar outlook, with 2025 and beyond holding more hope than it currently does. McCarthy wouldn't have to be very good to match Jones. Actually if his rookie year were similar to Jones I'd be worried we missed on the pick.

But the way it is now is misaligned, and it's likely that in a few months everyone is going to be pushing to do what they were saying before you couldn't: force the QB.

but you have a lot of question marks that have to play out. Buch of new coaches and players to start.

Big thing will be the progress of the OL/front 7 imv. If those two things are good then they will be in most games. Then it comes down to the 4th QTR execution all around.

I think BD is under a more pressure than JS. NYG have been wrongly soft on GM's in the past but if the OL is terrible again then he may go as well. Mara made some very strong comments being tired of the OL issues. Also mentioned that "we" won a lot of games around here when we had a good one.

In comment 16516822 Go Terps said:

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In comment 16516797 Eric from BBI said: Quote: In comment 16516791 aimrocky said: Quote: and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team. That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though. But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now. I'd argue it'd be a similar outlook, with 2025 and beyond holding more hope than it currently does. McCarthy wouldn't have to be very good to match Jones. Actually if his rookie year were similar to Jones I'd be worried we missed on the pick. But the way it is now is misaligned, and it's likely that in a few months everyone is going to be pushing to do what they were saying before you couldn't: force the QB.

And is forcing a QB the right move for 2 or 3 more wins vs getting one that can actually win?

Does winning 8 or 9 games the next 4 years make them more in contention than 6 or 7 with this draft? 9 wins may make the playoffs, yes. But that is all it is. It is not true contention.

I don't disagree that Jones is not the answer. But just getting a guy slightly better is not getting the team to be a real contender, is it.

I certainly don't have an answer. But getting better players when you can is most important.

what your record says you are, not what you think you are.

the OP posits the Giants are improved. Perhaps - time will tell. But until then they prove it on the field, they are a 6 win team with a major question at QB.

That's why the pundits are down on the Giants

I don't think McCarthy, Nix, and especially Penix are just slightly better than Jones.

Id guess

- One will be towards the bottom end of the "good QB" stack, like 6-10 range - Stafford, Ryan, Eli, Romo types
- One will be in the middle ground of QBs - good but maybe not good enough- Cousins, Tannehill, Tua types
- One will be a backup/journeyman - Trubisky, Jones, Darnold, Brissett, etc

Which one will be which? Really it's just a guess. And eventually you have to be willing to make that guess.

In comment 16516838 section125 said:

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I don't disagree that Jones is not the answer. But just getting a guy slightly better is not getting the team to be a real contender, is it. I certainly don't have an answer. But getting better players when you can is most important.

Slightly better at a fraction of the cost is not an insignificant difference.

And again, what's the plan for acquiring a QB who would be much better than Jones, other than losing 13+ games?

The Giants have one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. Zero depth for a team that is constantly injured as well. How you could be optimistic going into this season is beyond me. I just hope some of these young guys take big steps forward.

In comment 16516838 section125 said:

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In comment 16516822 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 16516797 Eric from BBI said: Quote: In comment 16516791 aimrocky said: Quote: and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team. That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though. But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now. I'd argue it'd be a similar outlook, with 2025 and beyond holding more hope than it currently does. McCarthy wouldn't have to be very good to match Jones. Actually if his rookie year were similar to Jones I'd be worried we missed on the pick. But the way it is now is misaligned, and it's likely that in a few months everyone is going to be pushing to do what they were saying before you couldn't: force the QB. And is forcing a QB the right move for 2 or 3 more wins vs getting one that can actually win? Does winning 8 or 9 games the next 4 years make them more in contention than 6 or 7 with this draft? 9 wins may make the playoffs, yes. But that is all it is. It is not true contention. I don't disagree that Jones is not the answer. But just getting a guy slightly better is not getting the team to be a real contender, is it. I certainly don't have an answer. But getting better players when you can is most important.

Why is it forcing when it's a prospect with an unknown ceiling but it's not forcing when it's another year of a known low ceiling in Janiel Dones? It's ok to settle for 5 to 8 wins with JD, but it's not ok to do that with a rookie, who also has the upside to become a champion?

The *don't force the pick* adherents don't have a case. They're just wrong from a game theory perspective. They have no plan to try and win THIS SEASON. They're content to squander this season, and not make any progress at QB that may pay off next season.

But it's a very narrow case that focuses on the pick instead of the team.

Nabers (or whatever non-QB) has a better likelihood of being a good player than JJM (or whatever QB). That is true. Nabers has a better chance of being great, good, useful...every level.

So for the pick itself, it makes some sense. From the broader team building perspective though, you are going to have to pick the QB at some point. You need to have a good QB. And unless you're picking #1 in the right draft, the position player is always going to have a higher likelihood of being good.

It's more putting pressure on Schoen that he's spent $221M in FA. The QB he paid a year ago will be healthy most likely. He drafted a WR1.

I think the floor needs to be around .500.

In comment 16516876 Jerry in_DC said:

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But it's a very narrow case that focuses on the pick instead of the team. Nabers (or whatever non-QB) has a better likelihood of being a good player than JJM (or whatever QB). That is true. Nabers has a better chance of being great, good, useful...every level. So for the pick itself, it makes some sense. From the broader team building perspective though, you are going to have to pick the QB at some point. You need to have a good QB. And unless you're picking #1 in the right draft, the position player is always going to have a higher likelihood of being good.

Yup. The excuses not to draft a QB this year ("Nabers is a 90, McCarthy is an 83") are almost certainly going to exist again next year. So under what conditions will the Giants actually draft a first round quarterback? They've only drafted 2 in 20 years.

In comment 16516879 Sean said:

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It's more putting pressure on Schoen that he's spent $221M in FA. The QB he paid a year ago will be healthy most likely. He drafted a WR1. I think the floor needs to be around .500.

Does it really matter though? The record? Let's say we get smoked by most of the good teams we play. And we win 2 easy games against bad/injured teams.

Then we play 9 games against mediocre teams where the score is like 20-17 or 17-16. Does it really matter if we go 6-3 or 3-6 in those games?

In comment 16516867 Darwinian said:

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The *don't force the pick* adherents don't have a case. They're just wrong from a game theory perspective. They have no plan to try and win THIS SEASON. They're content to squander this season, and not make any progress at QB that may pay off next season.

It's an exercise in kicking the can down the road. Sure, they'll say they want to replace the current QB, but then add a boatload of caveats and criteria for actually doing it that make actually doing it extremely difficult.

I'll guarantee you that if we're sitting here next April with the 9th pick in the draft, the same people will be making a case to draft a tackle.

In comment 16516791 aimrocky said:

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That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.

I'm a competence guy vs a continuity guy. I believe you can use logic rather than be so rgid.

If they passed on the quality QB - in which this was a rich QB Draft- and it loooks like the Giants are nothing more than a mediocre team at best going forward--

why are you accepting mediocrity? Conitnuity should't trump mediocrity.

In comment 16516867 Darwinian said:

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Why is it forcing when it's a prospect with an unknown ceiling but it's not forcing when it's another year of a known low ceiling in Janiel Dones? It's ok to settle for 5 to 8 wins with JD, but it's not ok to do that with a rookie, who also has the upside to become a champion? The *don't force the pick* adherents don't have a case. They're just wrong from a game theory perspective. They have no plan to try and win THIS SEASON. They're content to squander this season, and not make any progress at QB that may pay off next season.

It is very easy for you or anyone to sit there on your couch and make up points that are not factually correct(nor incorrect) and cast them as support for your position.
Both methods have very good reasoning. Both are not incorrect.
I could have gone either way with that pick and I would have preferred McCarthy to be honest(actually trade back for more picks with McCarthy).
But to espouse that one method to improve the team is superior to the other is a matter of opinion. Those that wanted a QB think their POV is best. Those that did not think JJM was a viable QB feel Nabers was the correct path.

Even experts will argue over QB first or team first and which is better. I think it is 50/50.

I have us winning 5 games. Then again, there are some "buts" to consider.

We are an improved team. Drafting Nabers dramatically improves the WR talent. In fact, it is something to be giddy about! The FA acquisition of Burns dramatically adds to our pass rush, but that came at a hefty cost, but probably well worth it.

But of course, that is dependent upon the QB play. Can DJ overcome his shell shock and his injuries? Can he return to his 2022 form or even his rookie season where he was actually good at the deep pass? Those are big maybes, but not an impossibility. If not, that nullifies the Wr improvement for this year, but not the next. We've seen Jones surprise before, so it can be hope for, if not expected.

But of course, DJ is not likely to get over his shell shock season of 2023 if the OL is not vastly improved over last year. This was not addressed during the draft, so one can only hope the change in coaching and the addition of FA vets solidifies this mess of a line. One might also hold out hope beyond hope that Evan Neal is not the bust he appears to be.

And this leads us to the loss of Barkley, who has been replaced by Singletary, who is no Barkley. He's not the RB defenses fear. But, if the OL turns out to be adequate, then the loss of Barkley will sting far less than expected. Maybe Gray, Tracy, Miller, or Corbin surprise us. Once again, though, the running game will be dependent upon how improved the OL turns out to be.

We had a big loss at safety in McKinney, who we couldn't afford to keep, but we did pick up the best safety in the draft in Tyler Nubin. There is some hope that he turns out to be even better than McKinney, but of course, that is not expected.

In summary, it would seem to be a 5 win season coming up, unless the OL gels, and then that makes the QBs and RBs better. With an improved pass rush, and a solid season from Nubin, then this is a team capable of a 10 win season.

In comment 16516867 Darwinian said:

Quote:

In comment 16516838 section125 said: Quote: In comment 16516822 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 16516797 Eric from BBI said: Quote: In comment 16516791 aimrocky said: Quote: and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team. That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though. But if the Giants had drafted McCarthy, you could argue that their outlook for 2024 would even be worse right now. I'd argue it'd be a similar outlook, with 2025 and beyond holding more hope than it currently does. McCarthy wouldn't have to be very good to match Jones. Actually if his rookie year were similar to Jones I'd be worried we missed on the pick. But the way it is now is misaligned, and it's likely that in a few months everyone is going to be pushing to do what they were saying before you couldn't: force the QB. And is forcing a QB the right move for 2 or 3 more wins vs getting one that can actually win? Does winning 8 or 9 games the next 4 years make them more in contention than 6 or 7 with this draft? 9 wins may make the playoffs, yes. But that is all it is. It is not true contention. I don't disagree that Jones is not the answer. But just getting a guy slightly better is not getting the team to be a real contender, is it. I certainly don't have an answer. But getting better players when you can is most important. Why is it forcing when it's a prospect with an unknown ceiling but it's not forcing when it's another year of a known low ceiling in Janiel Dones? It's ok to settle for 5 to 8 wins with JD, but it's not ok to do that with a rookie, who also has the upside to become a champion? The *don't force the pick* adherents don't have a case. They're just wrong from a game theory perspective. They have no plan to try and win THIS SEASON. They're content to squander this season, and not make any progress at QB that may pay off next season.

The upside to become a champion?!? Look, I want Daniel Jones gone, but you are not helping yourself by overselling guys like McCarthy, Nix, and Penix. Of those 3, I thought that McCarthy was in a separate tier higher than Nix and Penix (I thought that there were only 4 QB's worth a 1st Round pick in this draft). That being said, McCarthy is not without his limitations. He played in an offense in college where the running game opened up a lot. If he gets in a 52-49 type game like we had against the Saints when Eli was here how will he perform? When Trey Lance was coming out the lack of reps was a concern and that he never played from behind where a team was depending on him to open things up in order to win. Look how that translated to the NFL. There are peripherals that indicates McCarthy has a greater chance for success than Lance, but to say he is a surefire champion upside is improper.

As a fan I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t see how this offense is going to put up big points. You hope Nabers lights it up but he’s a rookie. And their top receiver outside him returning had 4tds and rusher had 3 tds.

And it’s not like they signed an all pro lineman and drafted a top 10 one ( or drafted any OLine at all).

But most importantly it’s the QB. He hasn’t proven he can produce multiple touchdowns a game. Add in the loss of Barkley. Where are they getting their points from?

This feels almost as bad. Team has no character I can pin my hopes to. At least the late 70s Giants had a very solid front 7 on defense and a pro bowl punter. Until we prove we are better, we suck. You are who your record says you are. Start beating Philly and Dallas and we'll revist

We will be underdogs in most games and have the pundits easily place us as last in the East and a top 5 drafter.

Schoen is casting his lot with Jones and Lock.

Let's hope for our sakes and his that it works out.

want to give is that the Giants don't have a QB they can win with. The Giants didnt draft a QB so fans and media are jumping on the bandwagon that the Giants can't win with Jones.

I personally believe that the Giants are much better off this season having drafted Nabers instead of a QB. The facts are that the Giants only felt good about 2-3 QBs in the draft. We defilitely know that they felt like nabers was a better option than the other QBs. I think the combination of Jones/Nabers or Lock/Nabers was a better option than any QB in this draft.

Look at our current cap situation, we would be in worse shape if we drafted a QB because we probably would have had to cut Jones and replace him with someone else. Raising the cap dedicated to QB. We already have to restructure some contracts just to operate this season.

I am predicting an 8-10 win season. I think we will go 3-3 in the division and the rest of the schedule isnt as bad as last year. I actually think that we have a good shot to go 2-0 to start the season and possibly 3-0 as Im not sold on the Browns. Then we probably lose against the cowboys and the Seattle game is interesting. Are they the Carroll Seahawks or is the new coach going to fail. I think thats a winable game. The bangals is probably a loss. I think the Eagles game could go either way. If the Eagles get off to a bad start again the pressure could blow that team up without their leaders. The Steelers are always tough but thats a winable game. Washington will be going through growing pains. We should also beat the Panthers. Then the last 5-6 games are the toughest. depending on how the beginning of the season goes we could be sitting very well in the playoff hunt. Maybe the Eagles game at the end is the decider.

To me this team will go where the OL will take us. I think Daboll/Kafka can get us some points if the OL can hold up no matter who is QB. I believe it will be Jones and he will play well with a good OL. Every QB folds under pressure, then constant pressure you lose your confidence. Hopefully Jones can get it back.

In comment 16516791 aimrocky said:

Quote:

and it aligns with much of what GoTerps had been saying. This regime passed on taking a QB in a QB rich draft. Facts are that all of the moves to this point were geared towards win now, so we should expect a winning team. That being said, I'm a continuity guy and doin't think the answer is firing the group at seasons end, barring a complete collapse/embarrassment. If we're hovering around .500 and metrics are showing progress, I wouldn't clean house. By this rationale, Schoen and Daboll likely missed their opportunity to draft a high end QB, though.

Win now... lol. Well, fucking DUH. What team doesn't want to win now? What the fuck does that even mean? If they don't want to win now I don't want them running the fucking team.

This is the thing that drives me nuts. The overall roster - THE OVERALL ROSTER - has been subpar for 11 of the last 12 years. We have SUCKED at scouting, building depth, building an overall solid team through the draft. This is why we suck. NOT BECAUSE OF ONE POSITION ON THE TEAM.

This team could have well built off of 2022, but we came into the season under-prepared, the defense absolutely SUCKED until about halfway through the season (not sure why barely anyone ever discusses this fact) we made bad roster decisions especially on the OL, and we lost our most important offensive player in the 1st series of the 1st game, which 100% caused the wheels to come off until we stabilized (SOMEWHAT) AFTER week 9 when he came back into the lineup and we added a guard to the OL that was sitting on his couch for a year.

QB is one position and is timing and luck. Scout better, draft better, Build and coach the fucking team. Do that and we'll be a winning team.

In comment 16516789 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

What do you want? This guy?

No, but when people ask why the Giants are viewed negatively? You read the posts. I am a lot older than you and as a fan since 1956 I do not understand the daily whining that people spew. Is this a generational thing?

In comment 16516929 Mike in NY said:

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In comment 16516867 Darwinian said: The upside to become a champion?!? Look, I want Daniel Jones gone, but you are not helping yourself by overselling guys like McCarthy, Nix, and Penix. Of those 3, I thought that McCarthy was in a separate tier higher than Nix and Penix (I thought that there were only 4 QB's worth a 1st Round pick in this draft). That being said, McCarthy is not without his limitations. He played in an offense in college where the running game opened up a lot. If he gets in a 52-49 type game like we had against the Saints when Eli was here how will he perform? When Trey Lance was coming out the lack of reps was a concern and that he never played from behind where a team was depending on him to open things up in order to win. Look how that translated to the NFL. There are peripherals that indicates McCarthy has a greater chance for success than Lance, but to say he is a surefire champion upside is improper.

I don't think you are reading my posts properly. And maybe I have been unclear. I'm not saying they are championship QBs. I am saying they are probability vectors with championship upside. It could be a 5% chance of being a championship QB. It could be a 40% chance to become a championship QB. We don't know what they will become because there are so many unknowns jumping from college to the NFL. And lesser prospects beat their expectations all the time: Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott, Brock Purdy, CJ Stroud are all QBs who outperformed expectations. A year from now we might be saying, "Why did we think Bo Nix wasn't good?" Or not. The point is we don't know yet. But we have a hardened idea of what Daniel Jones is, and he has a known low ceiling. Whereas Bo Nix can still turn into Drew Brees. Unlikely? Sure. But if he does, Denver joins the club of teams that are perennial playoff contenders. And we'll still have Janiel Dones.

to add onto my last response.

I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position.

And that's good, given the Giants track record. (Usually when expectations are high, they flop. And their good seasons come when expectations are low.) The 3 most recently optimistic years around this team were 2017, 2021 and 2023. Now, everyone expects nothing again. Especially with Barkley going to the scary Eagles.

Last year was about as ridiculous a disaster out of the gate as you could imagine. Lose all the players you can't afford to lose immediately. That is bad luck, there is no way around it.

It doesn't matter what any of us "think" is going to happen. This should be a solid team given the resource outlay.

In comment 16517016 joe48 said:

Quote:

In comment 16516789 Eric from BBI said: Quote: What do you want? This guy? No, but when people ask why the Giants are viewed negatively? You read the posts. I am a lot older than you and as a fan since 1956 I do not understand the daily whining that people spew. Is this a generational thing?

Saying the team is poorly run and has stunk for years is an observation of fact, not whining.

You said:

Quote:

I guess Eric has no problem with the tone here.

This implies that you want me to purge people with the "wrong" tone.

Yeah, we should all be over the moon at the product we’ve forced to watch this past decade. How dare people view this organization negatively?

Obviously the next two as well but if the bull case hits on the 2020 class - we should have one of the better pass rushes in football (Kayvon elevating to that 2nd tier of Edge) and an average OL (Neal and/or even Ezeudu being a competent starter or swing). Wan'Dale developing into one of the better low aDot guys in football compounds if Nabers hits out the gate as well. Overall, that's what matters in the Giants have something to build on or this thing being completely FUBAR'd.

then why don't we just start a thread on how Tomon Fox is the next LT because he's also went to North Carolina?

I don't understand the desire to pretend that the piss landing on our heads is actually rain.

In comment 16517103 Go Terps said:

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then why don't we just start a thread on how Tomon Fox is the next LT because he's also went to North Carolina? I don't understand the desire to pretend that the piss landing on our heads is actually rain.

That's what real fans do Terps, and remember to say thank you.

Back then when we were younger and had hair, we thought average to mediocre players were stars, all rookies were going to turn into All-Pros and new coaches were going to be future Vince Lombardis or Tom Landrys. We got rid of star players who couldn't take the stupid (and trashed them on the way out the door), had star players get hurt, quit for the missionary life, or in Troy Archer's case died tragically.

And this went on year after year for 17 years. You learn to try and be objective.

So, at least trying to be objective, I see a team that had trouble stopping the run last season adding a guy who doesn't play the run well, pinning hopes at tackle on a former high draft pick that has not progressed, hiring a couple of cheap free agent guards, a defense that is depending on several rookies in the secondary, a qb room where the starter is the least talented passer and a running back corp that has a journeyman starter that no DC cares about and unproven players as backups. We have no TE. (the kid might turn out good, but te is a difficult position and it is littered with great athletes who failed).

Maybe if all the stars align, everyone stays healthy, all of our good players maintain what they did last year, the rookies all turn out to be good players, we find a qb among the qb room, discover a running game among the flotsam on the roster and our opponents shit the bed, we could sneak into the playoffs. The probabilities are that the stars will not align and we will be in the bottom third of the league.

In comment 16517016 joe48 said:

Quote:

In comment 16516789 Eric from BBI said: Quote: What do you want? This guy? No, but when people ask why the Giants are viewed negatively? You read the posts. I am a lot older than you and as a fan since 1956 I do not understand the daily whining that people spew. Is this a generational thing?

If you've been a fan since 1956, surely you can't be unfamiliar with a generation that whines about everything.

In comment 16517053 Darwinian said:

Quote:

to add onto my last response. I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position.

I agree that we have seen enough from Jones to know that he is not the QB that will bring you a Super Bowl championship. My disagreement largely centers on what it means to "cycle through unknown QBs." You will not get an objection from me of following the Ron Wolf strategy of using a pick from Round 5 on each year on a QB. On the other hand, if you are taking one in the first round pick you need to do it on a QB that your scouting staff has graded as a first round caliber and you believe their REALISTIC POTENTIAL can be the type of QB you can win with. I am not talking about their best case upside, but what you believe they can do in your system with your coaching staff. The opportunity cost of losing an elite talent at another position for the sake of overdrafting a QB is more pronounced in Round 1. Imagine if we had the other Josh Allen as part of our pass rush rather than having Daniel Jones at QB.

In comment 16517125 Mike in NY said:

Quote:

In comment 16517053 Darwinian said: Quote: to add onto my last response. I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position. I agree that we have seen enough from Jones to know that he is not the QB that will bring you a Super Bowl championship. My disagreement largely centers on what it means to "cycle through unknown QBs." You will not get an objection from me of following the Ron Wolf strategy of using a pick from Round 5 on each year on a QB. On the other hand, if you are taking one in the first round pick you need to do it on a QB that your scouting staff has graded as a first round caliber and you believe their REALISTIC POTENTIAL can be the type of QB you can win with. I am not talking about their best case upside, but what you believe they can do in your system with your coaching staff. The opportunity cost of losing an elite talent at another position for the sake of overdrafting a QB is more pronounced in Round 1. Imagine if we had the other Josh Allen as part of our pass rush rather than having Daniel Jones at QB.

First of all, if you are going to do a proper analysis of what it means to pass on a 1st round "elite talent" you have to be honest. Many of them don't work out so well - like Evan Neal and Kayvon. What pct of even top-10 picks turn out to be uninspiring? That's part of the calculation. And then if they do hit, they are still far less valuable than a QB upgrade from bad to (just) good.

In comment 16517160 Darwinian said:

Quote:

In comment 16517125 Mike in NY said: Quote: In comment 16517053 Darwinian said: Quote: to add onto my last response. I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position. I agree that we have seen enough from Jones to know that he is not the QB that will bring you a Super Bowl championship. My disagreement largely centers on what it means to "cycle through unknown QBs." You will not get an objection from me of following the Ron Wolf strategy of using a pick from Round 5 on each year on a QB. On the other hand, if you are taking one in the first round pick you need to do it on a QB that your scouting staff has graded as a first round caliber and you believe their REALISTIC POTENTIAL can be the type of QB you can win with. I am not talking about their best case upside, but what you believe they can do in your system with your coaching staff. The opportunity cost of losing an elite talent at another position for the sake of overdrafting a QB is more pronounced in Round 1. Imagine if we had the other Josh Allen as part of our pass rush rather than having Daniel Jones at QB. First of all, if you are going to do a proper analysis of what it means to pass on a 1st round "elite talent" you have to be honest. Many of them don't work out so well - like Evan Neal and Kayvon. What pct of even top-10 picks turn out to be uninspiring? That's part of the calculation. And then if they do hit, they are still far less valuable than a QB upgrade from bad to (just) good.

Kayvon hasn’t worked out so far?

Manhattan analysis

drafting Penix when they already had Cousins, was fine. I think they are recognizing QB is the most important and consequential position in all of American sports and it is better to have too much QB than too little. I think the Giants made the error, not the Falcons. If Cousins falters, or is slow to return form injury, they have a plan in place. If Cousins gets hurt, like he did last year with the Vikings, they have a QB who can step in, and who knows, might be even better, unlike the Vikings last year, whose season was effectively ended with the injury.

The landscape of the NFL has changed. It is changing. And teams who get the message early. like the Falcons, the 49ers, the Chiefs, the Broncos, the Vikings, will be rewarded. Teams that are slow to adapt, will lose a generation.

the reason is we have stunk for most of the last 20+ years. We have not upgraded at QB. Coaching was bad last year too. Why not predict we will be THE worst team in NFL this year? It is not a crazy view.

In comment 16517120 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

Back then when we were younger and had hair, we thought average to mediocre players were stars, all rookies were going to turn into All-Pros and new coaches were going to be future Vince Lombardis or Tom Landrys. We got rid of star players who couldn't take the stupid (and trashed them on the way out the door), had star players get hurt, quit for the missionary life, or in Troy Archer's case died tragically. And this went on year after year for 17 years. You learn to try and be objective. So, at least trying to be objective, I see a team that had trouble stopping the run last season adding a guy who doesn't play the run well, pinning hopes at tackle on a former high draft pick that has not progressed, hiring a couple of cheap free agent guards, a defense that is depending on several rookies in the secondary, a qb room where the starter is the least talented passer and a running back corp that has a journeyman starter that no DC cares about and unproven players as backups. We have no TE. (the kid might turn out good, but te is a difficult position and it is littered with great athletes who failed). Maybe if all the stars align, everyone stays healthy, all of our good players maintain what they did last year, the rookies all turn out to be good players, we find a qb among the qb room, discover a running game among the flotsam on the roster and our opponents shit the bed, we could sneak into the playoffs. The probabilities are that the stars will not align and we will be in the bottom third of the league.

I don't go back quite that far (wasn't born yet in '56), but I've been a fan since the 70s so I have also seen the glory years and the wilderness years. The last 12 years haven't been total wilderness, but closer to that than glory years.
Hoping JS is the one to lead us back into contention, still a lot more upgrades to be made.

Who is the most objective reviewer and also has the most to lose if they are wrong? LAS VEGAS.

Las Vegas says the over and under for 2024 is 6.5 games.
You may not agree with Vegas, but a lot of folks rely on Vegas' opinion.

I'm thrilled to be watching Giants football again -- and pretty soon, at that.

It is among the very worst in the sport. That is not whining. That is a fact. The quarterback, OL and running back group are arguably the very worst in the league. Yes Schoen has made a lot of moves, but hoping for success and expecting positive outcomes based on unproven draft picks and investments in free agent cast-offs is nothing more than fool's gold. Every other team in the league has made similar free agent investments and draft selections and believe they have also substantially improved.

Based on the schedule, I am seeing a ceiling of 4-6 wins. The floor could easily be this team's worst record in the Super Bowl Era. At this point, I could easily see the team who loses the Munich Bowl getting the first selection in the 2025 draft.

In comment 16517160 Darwinian said:

Quote:

In comment 16517125 Mike in NY said: Quote: In comment 16517053 Darwinian said: Quote: to add onto my last response. I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position. I agree that we have seen enough from Jones to know that he is not the QB that will bring you a Super Bowl championship. My disagreement largely centers on what it means to "cycle through unknown QBs." You will not get an objection from me of following the Ron Wolf strategy of using a pick from Round 5 on each year on a QB. On the other hand, if you are taking one in the first round pick you need to do it on a QB that your scouting staff has graded as a first round caliber and you believe their REALISTIC POTENTIAL can be the type of QB you can win with. I am not talking about their best case upside, but what you believe they can do in your system with your coaching staff. The opportunity cost of losing an elite talent at another position for the sake of overdrafting a QB is more pronounced in Round 1. Imagine if we had the other Josh Allen as part of our pass rush rather than having Daniel Jones at QB. First of all, if you are going to do a proper analysis of what it means to pass on a 1st round "elite talent" you have to be honest. Many of them don't work out so well - like Evan Neal and Kayvon. What pct of even top-10 picks turn out to be uninspiring? That's part of the calculation. And then if they do hit, they are still far less valuable than a QB upgrade from bad to (just) good.

Busts happen and so do players who overperform expectations, but if I am comparing two players and one has a second round grade and the other has a first round grade I am taking the latter every time at 6 even if the former happens to be a QB. That is why I would never select Nix or Penix over Nabers. McCarthy was the only one of the three that would have merited consideration based solely on my view. I am not privy to any of the medicals nor do I see other evaluations nor have I interviewed any of the players. Bob McGinn, for example, had scouts who questioned issues of McCarthy's mental toughness. That is something that could only be assessed in interviews and discussions with people at Michigan. I was not a part of that and if there were red flags I can totally see not grading him as a first round player.

I apologize if I am not explaining myself clearly, but my concern is wasting high picks by asking the wrong question of "what does it mean for my team if Player X reaches his best case scenario?" Almost nobody reaches their "best case scenario." This is why you evaluate what a player's realistic upside is. If you are telling me that that is not something you would even want to offer a fifth year option to (which merely being slightly better than Daniel Jones would be) then I do not want that player in Round 1 at all.

In comment 16517225 Mike in NY said:

Quote:

In comment 16517160 Darwinian said: Quote: In comment 16517125 Mike in NY said: Quote: In comment 16517053 Darwinian said: Quote: to add onto my last response. I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position. I agree that we have seen enough from Jones to know that he is not the QB that will bring you a Super Bowl championship. My disagreement largely centers on what it means to "cycle through unknown QBs." You will not get an objection from me of following the Ron Wolf strategy of using a pick from Round 5 on each year on a QB. On the other hand, if you are taking one in the first round pick you need to do it on a QB that your scouting staff has graded as a first round caliber and you believe their REALISTIC POTENTIAL can be the type of QB you can win with. I am not talking about their best case upside, but what you believe they can do in your system with your coaching staff. The opportunity cost of losing an elite talent at another position for the sake of overdrafting a QB is more pronounced in Round 1. Imagine if we had the other Josh Allen as part of our pass rush rather than having Daniel Jones at QB. First of all, if you are going to do a proper analysis of what it means to pass on a 1st round "elite talent" you have to be honest. Many of them don't work out so well - like Evan Neal and Kayvon. What pct of even top-10 picks turn out to be uninspiring? That's part of the calculation. And then if they do hit, they are still far less valuable than a QB upgrade from bad to (just) good. Busts happen and so do players who overperform expectations, but if I am comparing two players and one has a second round grade and the other has a first round grade I am taking the latter every time at 6 even if the former happens to be a QB. That is why I would never select Nix or Penix over Nabers. McCarthy was the only one of the three that would have merited consideration based solely on my view. I am not privy to any of the medicals nor do I see other evaluations nor have I interviewed any of the players. Bob McGinn, for example, had scouts who questioned issues of McCarthy's mental toughness. That is something that could only be assessed in interviews and discussions with people at Michigan. I was not a part of that and if there were red flags I can totally see not grading him as a first round player. I apologize if I am not explaining myself clearly, but my concern is wasting high picks by asking the wrong question of "what does it mean for my team if Player X reaches his best case scenario?" Almost nobody reaches their "best case scenario." This is why you evaluate what a player's realistic upside is. If you are telling me that that is not something you would even want to offer a fifth year option to (which merely being slightly better than Daniel Jones would be) then I do not want that player in Round 1 at all.

I appreciate your point of view but draft grades are just opinions. They are speculations and representations of what an individual thinks will happen. And when the playing starts the grades are meaningless. In 2022 KT went 5th, Neal went 7th and Brock Purdy went 262nd. Today, if you went to the 49ers and tried to trade those two for Purdy, they likely wouldn't do it. These high draft picks aren't really elite talents until they do it in the NFL. It's just potential.

So we really don't know how good or bad any of these QBs will be. But they're in the conversation. KOC and Payton thought JJM and Nix were first round quality. And I agree that Malik Nabers is likelier to hit than QBs 3 through 6. But Nabers cannot transform a bad team into a good team. Wide receivers don't move the needle enough. All the QBs have a higher chance to transform the New York Giants if they do hit. And from where the Giants presently sit, they are better off taking a player with a higher chance to transform the team, than taking the player with the better chance to hit, in my opinion.

But, I will say, if they had taken a developmental QB after the Nabers selection, at least, I'd be happier.

How horrendous the line was and in turn, QB play, I'm not sure the floor is very low in comparison. They're simply better in many key areas notably OT, pass rusher, WR, and (yes) TE. All right, TE isn't as important but it is better. There is depth and no real concerns in regards to health. The other three positions are very critical to teams' success in this league.

I think they're good enough between 7-10 to 9-8 to be honest. Assuming the key guys remain relatively healthy.

In comment 16517233 Darwinian said:

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In comment 16517225 Mike in NY said: Quote: In comment 16517160 Darwinian said: Quote: In comment 16517125 Mike in NY said: Quote: In comment 16517053 Darwinian said: Quote: to add onto my last response. I believe, it is better to cycle through unknown QBs in the hopes of landing a QB who exceeds expectations. than sticking with a known quantity with a shitty ceiling. If you don't take these chances, as the 49ers did, as KC did, you are likely missing opportunities at a dramatic upgrade to the position. I agree that we have seen enough from Jones to know that he is not the QB that will bring you a Super Bowl championship. My disagreement largely centers on what it means to "cycle through unknown QBs." You will not get an objection from me of following the Ron Wolf strategy of using a pick from Round 5 on each year on a QB. On the other hand, if you are taking one in the first round pick you need to do it on a QB that your scouting staff has graded as a first round caliber and you believe their REALISTIC POTENTIAL can be the type of QB you can win with. I am not talking about their best case upside, but what you believe they can do in your system with your coaching staff. The opportunity cost of losing an elite talent at another position for the sake of overdrafting a QB is more pronounced in Round 1. Imagine if we had the other Josh Allen as part of our pass rush rather than having Daniel Jones at QB. First of all, if you are going to do a proper analysis of what it means to pass on a 1st round "elite talent" you have to be honest. Many of them don't work out so well - like Evan Neal and Kayvon. What pct of even top-10 picks turn out to be uninspiring? That's part of the calculation. And then if they do hit, they are still far less valuable than a QB upgrade from bad to (just) good. Busts happen and so do players who overperform expectations, but if I am comparing two players and one has a second round grade and the other has a first round grade I am taking the latter every time at 6 even if the former happens to be a QB. That is why I would never select Nix or Penix over Nabers. McCarthy was the only one of the three that would have merited consideration based solely on my view. I am not privy to any of the medicals nor do I see other evaluations nor have I interviewed any of the players. Bob McGinn, for example, had scouts who questioned issues of McCarthy's mental toughness. That is something that could only be assessed in interviews and discussions with people at Michigan. I was not a part of that and if there were red flags I can totally see not grading him as a first round player. I apologize if I am not explaining myself clearly, but my concern is wasting high picks by asking the wrong question of "what does it mean for my team if Player X reaches his best case scenario?" Almost nobody reaches their "best case scenario." This is why you evaluate what a player's realistic upside is. If you are telling me that that is not something you would even want to offer a fifth year option to (which merely being slightly better than Daniel Jones would be) then I do not want that player in Round 1 at all. I appreciate your point of view but draft grades are just opinions. They are speculations and representations of what an individual thinks will happen. And when the playing starts the grades are meaningless. In 2022 KT went 5th, Neal went 7th and Brock Purdy went 262nd. Today, if you went to the 49ers and tried to trade those two for Purdy, they likely wouldn't do it. These high draft picks aren't really elite talents until they do it in the NFL. It's just potential. So we really don't know how good or bad any of these QBs will be. But they're in the conversation. KOC and Payton thought JJM and Nix were first round quality. And I agree that Malik Nabers is likelier to hit than QBs 3 through 6. But Nabers cannot transform a bad team into a good team. Wide receivers don't move the needle enough. All the QBs have a higher chance to transform the New York Giants if they do hit. And from where the Giants presently sit, they are better off taking a player with a higher chance to transform the team, than taking the player with the better chance to hit, in my opinion. But, I will say, if they had taken a developmental QB after the Nabers selection, at least, I'd be happier.

I will agree on the last point. I would have taken Pratt instead of the LB in Round 6. Hope I am proven wrong, but I think special teams players you could find as UDFA. I personally was not fond of Milton because if the light has not gone on yet with all of the chances he had at major programs why would it suddenly change in the NFL? I thought Pratt's realistic upside was higher.

In comment 16517223 The Mike said:

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It is among the very worst in the sport. That is not whining. That is a fact. The quarterback, OL and running back group are arguably the very worst in the league. Yes Schoen has made a lot of moves, but hoping for success and expecting positive outcomes based on unproven draft picks and investments in free agent cast-offs is nothing more than fool's gold. Every other team in the league has made similar free agent investments and draft selections and believe they have also substantially improved. Based on the schedule, I am seeing a ceiling of 4-6 wins. The floor could easily be this team's worst record in the Super Bowl Era. At this point, I could easily see the team who loses the Munich Bowl getting the first selection in the 2025 draft.

If the Giants are picking first, Schoen has to go imo.

The Giants are really bad, it means his draft picks have been bad and not being developed.

Evan Neal, Wan'Dale Robinson, Cordele Flott, Daniel Bellinger. All key pieces this season and if they can be productive, I feel it hugely benefits Schoen going further. This is his team 100% now.

That should say.

In comment 16517246 Mike in NY said:

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In comment 16517233 Darwinian said: I will agree on the last point. I would have taken Pratt instead of the LB in Round 6. Hope I am proven wrong, but I think special teams players you could find as UDFA. I personally was not fond of Milton because if the light has not gone on yet with all of the chances he had at major programs why would it suddenly change in the NFL? I thought Pratt's realistic upside was higher.

Glad we could agree on one point, at least. It would have been nice to get one of the later round guys. I don't really care which, I think they are all similar probability plays. Rattler, Pratt, Travis, Milton.

In comment 16516876 Jerry in_DC said:

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But it's a very narrow case that focuses on the pick instead of the team. Nabers (or whatever non-QB) has a better likelihood of being a good player than JJM (or whatever QB). That is true. Nabers has a better chance of being great, good, useful...every level. So for the pick itself, it makes some sense. From the broader team building perspective though, you are going to have to pick the QB at some point. You need to have a good QB. And unless you're picking #1 in the right draft, the position player is always going to have a higher likelihood of being good.

+1.

There's a reason why Goff and Cousins get more money than Amon-Ra even though Brown is "better."

"You are what your record says you are". Winning in the offseason means nothing until the team can translate it to winning on the field on Sundays.

A lot of questions get answered this season in my view. It’s year 3. Good first year . Bad second. Big year 3. If they show some promise and battle to 8-9 wins, depending on the nature of those wins, we could be pretty satisfied heading into 2025. Or we could get out to an early good record and then collapse against tougher teams and be frustrated heading into 2025. Or it’s even uglier than that and were despondent. I still don’t think the roster is bad but proof is in the pudding. The giants have to earn some respect.

I think the qb will hold his own if the team functions at a reasonable well level. Call me crazy.

While they added the star in burns and have 3 other studs on the front 7, they still have some spots on D that are a bit questionable, or unproven on paper. They also lost Williams on the DL and didn’t really replace him with anything substantial. McKinney I’m not as worried about since they added the 2nd rounder but again, he’s unproven too.

And that’s the good part of the team. The offense is even more questionable but that’s why they play the games. We’ll see in a few months.

I admire your optimism. I wish I shared it.

The problem areas were the offensive line and run defense. The Giants have taken steps which might realistically be effective in both areas. They have added talent to both sides of the ball.

The Giants might be mediocre or middle of the road this year. But barring another slew of injuries, there is no reason to expect they will be at the bottom of the league. There is reason to hope that with a strong effort, they could have a winning season.

There are some good players on this team.

I agree with the general sentiment above by many that this is the year where his draft picks need to breakout.

The cornerstones of the 2022 and 2023 teams were Gettleman acquisitions. Thibs, JMS, Neal, Robinson, Hyatt, Banks, Flott, Ezeudu, Nabers, Nubin, and Phillips were all top 100 picks. Several of those guys need to be above average or better starters to put together a sustained run of winning years.

In comment 16517361 OntheRoad said:

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The problem areas were the offensive line and run defense. The Giants have taken steps which might realistically be effective in both areas. They have added talent to both sides of the ball. The Giants might be mediocre or middle of the road this year. But barring another slew of injuries, there is no reason to expect they will be at the bottom of the league. There is reason to hope that with a strong effort, they could have a winning season. There are some good players on this team.

I think so too. If JSS and banks progress from rookie year and Nabers is a true number 1…. They’re going to win some games.

In comment 16517361 OntheRoad said:

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The problem areas were the offensive line and run defense. The Giants have taken steps which might realistically be effective in both areas. They have added talent to both sides of the ball.

No. On Offense.

The problems were the OL.
The WR crew.
The TE
The QB.

To only single out the OL is just wrong.

I think it will be a terrible missed opportunity. Daboll was hired as a QB whisperer to caddy a QB prospect of his choosing. It's a great chance for the Giants to find their own starter to pair with a guru. If they can Daboll, they'll probably swing the pendulum in the other direction, and hire a defensive minded HC and the hope that the Giants might finally adapt to the new NFL will be lost for another half generation.

In comment 16517347 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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I admire your optimism. I wish I shared it.

Sad thing is I’m not that optimistic. Even my best case scenario is nothing special. I guess I’m just looking for a shred of something hopeful … I’m not exactly booming with confidence, won’t lie.

All I really want is a quality NYG defense. Just give us that this season. One with staying power.

Daboll isn’t getting fired anytime soon.

They had two phases. Really fucked up and less so.

is a moron who suffers from a strong case of recency bias, present company excluded.

...unless someone was willing to give up a 1st or 2nd round pick for him. The Lions have Super Bowl aspirations. In Hooker they have an inexpensive, but talented QB who has had two years in their system. That's very valuable to them. Even if he doesn't take a snap for them for the remainder of his contract, he gives them peace of mind, and will figure favorably in the comp pick formula down the road.

The next question is: why would someone give up a 1st or 2nd round pick for a guy who has yet to take an NFL snap when they weren't willing to give up a 1st or 2nd round pick for him in the 2023 draft? Not impossible, but not bloody likely.

I agree this is a pivotal year but I cannot predict our record because we have a young team and have added new players. My hope is that we become more competitive in our division. I have seen 4 SB wins in my time which is longer than many here. Saying the team and organization stinks everyday will not fix anything.

Can only meaningfully happen when they find a strong franchise QB.

However, this team got a lot better. The foundation is laid now to where if you can acquire that difference maker at the QB position, they can win quickly.

So much still relies on health, though, and the Giants really had a bad 2023 on that front. Given the injuries to really key players last year, I maintain that Daboll really overachieved with what he had week to week. You just don't see UDFA rookies at QB win hardly at all at the NFL level. This gives me a good vibe that if Schoen can acquire a real talent at QB going into 2025, they can become contenders quickly.

It does feel like the people in charge have real competency.

That said, I thought they should've drafted McCarthy, and if he becomes a franchise QB, failing drafting an equal or better talent in 2025, not taking him will be viewed as a major missed opportunity.

And I absolutely love Nabers, I believe he will be a superlative #1 receiver. Cee Dee Lamb level at least.