It's a fascinating topic to me as a fan in general.
During games I'm always rooting for the team to win, no matter the cost or benefit. Before and after the game, I'm more reasoned on what outcome is objectively best.
For instance, I 100% reject the hocus pocus notion that trying hard and winning meaningless games magically carries over to the next year. Or that treating meaningless games as exhibitions solicits a magical curse from the gods.
This year, I can't shake the idea that I would rather Daniel Jones unequivocally show he's not the answer, than tread water. I have no problem acknowledging I would rather the team go 3-14 than 7-10.
I'm perfectly comfortable with hoping players or coaches I don't think will ever be good, just prove it once and for all and move on.
Once the games start, I'll be rooting for Jones every second of every game. But between the games, I admit I have no confidence in him and hope he gets benched.
Anyone else feel that way?
The one caveat I have, I think Brian Daboll is a good coach. If you want him to be here long term, it won't happen at 3-14. It probably does happen at 7-10.
3-14 likely leads to another organizational reset beyond moving off Jones.
Do you think winning more games than Washington made the Giants scouting process better? Or was it luck and it saved them from themselves?
If the Giants had the 2nd pick do you think they would have chosen Young or Thomas?
Regardless of what you want to say about this regime, Schoen has had some lousy luck:
--2 top 10 picks in 2022 with no QB to take.
--Won just enough games to be out of Maye/Daniels territory.
Any angst towards Schoen is about the Jones contract after John Mara, Chris Mara & Steve Tisch all fawned over him publicly after a playoff win and he was declared their "franchise QB." And, passing on McCarthy, Penix & Nix at 6.
Anything else is insignificant.
I'm fearful a tread water season will lead to another year of Jones at QB. Which will lead to another tread water season and another year of Jones.
As much as I like Daboll, and I truly do, I'd rather risk losing him if it means figuring out once and for who Jones is.
Here's another question. If Daboll is fired by NYG, does he get another head coaching job?
I prefer losses at the end of lost seasons - last year being a perfect example. If nothing else, for the trade value of those higher picks. Imagine if the Giants selected third in this past draft and didn't love Drake Maye and/or didn't want a QB - could've gotten a fortune for that pick in a trade.
If Schoen is in over his head, he's a perfect example of benefiting from learning who he is now.
Well the got swept by TB in the last series before the TDL and they actually were sellers and they brought up the young guns. And in 2017 they would get to game 7 of the ALCS against the Houston *'s
Hal would later admit that that series loss to the Rays is what motivated him to okay selling.
This is a really long way of saying I'm all for short term pain for long term gain. I do not subscribe to any magic beans theory about teams getting better, and the last place I want to see any of my teams is on the treadmill of mediocrity
I get a kick out of it too. It's tantamount to saying you believe the Giants are stupid, and the only way they'll make a good decision is if they get lucky and a more stupid team is drafting ahead of them. That's a hell of a strategy.
I think Daboll is a good coach, and I think Jones is a bottom end starter. So I think a 7-10 season is absolutely in the cards. I don't think a Daboll coached team, unless a player like Lock or DeVito starts 12-15 games will lose 14 games.
If Schoen is in over his head, he's a perfect example of benefiting from learning who he is now.
He's had some misses but every GM does. Poles traded a high 2 for Claypool. I compare him to Poles because they were both hired at the same time.
It comes down to QB. A roster looks a lot better when the QB play is competent. But, Schoen/Daboll did miss on the OL last year. No excusing that.
As for Neal, he was a chalk pick by just about any pundit. No one and I mean no one felt that pick was a reach or not a good one. That's just bad luck to this point.
Sometimes in life you play your best to learn and make mistakes, to ultimately win.
This happens in business all of the time. Startups choose to lose money and not worry about profitability. They focus on testing things out, failing fast, and proving concepts. Only then do they worry about traditional measurable results.
The path to winning often times requires intentional losing.
But, as anything, there’s a massive human human element to this.
There are roughly 200 players, coaches, assistants, trainers who shuffle in and out of the facility every week working and grinding towards something. From an outsiders perspective, it’s hard for me to dismiss any effect winning a game (which is really the only group metric of success for these people) may have on the collective group.
I’m just as tired as sucking as everyone else. I just don’t think we are in a position to make this argument.
My guess is on a professional team, if a really average player is compensated really well, and continues to be average that can hurt motivation among others.
I wonder how the others plays would feel and react if Jones was benched and DeVito got to start. Would they prefer a 3-14 season knowing the staff was turning over every stone to try and build, or ride out an average season with Jones?
I think this it precisely. I think Daboll is a good coach and Jones is a bottom end starter. I think 2022 is the best outcome this combination will achieve.
This is always the easy example. But look at all the stars they've missed out on by one spot. Ogden is the easiest example. But to show even more how missing by one spot can be devastating, imagine what the Giants last four decades would have been like if NO took Taylor.
Or look at the 2016 draft and see the three guys they missed out on by one game. Then there was Toney instead of Devontea Smith.
I prefer losses at the end of lost seasons - last year being a perfect example. If nothing else, for the trade value of those higher picks. Imagine if the Giants selected third in this past draft and didn't love Drake Maye and/or didn't want a QB - could've gotten a fortune for that pick in a trade.
The worst thing for a team is to win 7 or 8 games every year. Unless you get lucky that is a sure path to a long run of mediocrity. Would the people who say always pull for the win have been happy if the Giants had won 2 more games in 2000 and missed out on Manning (or Roethlisberger)?
When on a losing team, wins keep the team from falling apart during the season.
Coaches have to keep trying.
Players are not on guaranteed contracts; they have to keep proving thar they belong in the league. They have to keep trying.
Our external perspective does not matter.
The GMs contingency plans are exactly that: contingent.
Would you rather Daniel Jones and Brian Daboll be the head coach and quarterback in 2025 and 2026, or a different pair?
When on a losing team, wins keep the team from falling apart during the season.
Coaches have to keep trying.
Players are not on guaranteed contracts; they have to keep proving thar they belong in the league. They have to keep trying.
The Giants were eliminated going into week 18 last year versus the Eagles.
The staff chose to start Taylor presumably because he gave them the best chance to win.
Do you think the team would have fallen apart and jobs would have been lost if they started DeVito?
Taylor was not under contract for 2024 and DeVito was. Wouldn't it have made more sense to develop him more, even if the chance of winning was lower?
The Chase Young stuff is a great example of the serendipity of the draft. But imagine if the Bengals won two more games and WAS got Burrow instead of Young. Sometimes losing is good. Probabilistically, you're more likely to get a better player the higher you draft. So I would have preferred to lose more last season.
My guess is on a professional team, if a really average player is compensated really well, and continues to be average that can hurt motivation among others.
I wonder how the others plays would feel and react if Jones was benched and DeVito got to start. Would they prefer a 3-14 season knowing the staff was turning over every stone to try and build, or ride out an average season with Jones?
What % of those 200 know there’s a strong chance they are either with another organization the next year or out of the league altogether. They aren’t going to rally around tanking for draft positions.
Deft FO maneuvering and some luck are what put teams in a position to strike when the iron is hot in the draft. Giants got unlucky in 22 with 2 top 10 picks in a seemingly no QB draft. Bad FO moves (not accumulating draft capital to maybe be able to trade into top 3) and bad luck struck this year. Not to mention, they still could have taken a QB that other teams deemed worthy of a top 12 pick and chose not to.
There’s lot of blame, but not tanking isn’t the problem to me.
Yes, I think the Giants would have sat there and taken Young. I don't have any inside information, obviously, but my recollection is that hype train was fast.
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One, obviously was resigning Daniel Jones. Let’s not try to dismantle this team again, or we may be waiting another 5 to 10 years.
Would you rather Daniel Jones and Brian Daboll be the head coach and quarterback in 2025 and 2026, or a different pair?
To answer your question, I would rather keep Brian Daboll and give him the opportunity to mold a brand spanking new quarterback next year with better weapons and a better offensive line. By no means do I want to have Daniel Jones Continue on into 2025. It’s mostly because of the injuries.
Win and win a lot. I am not looking for top picks and blowing this thing up again.
I hope Jones goes to the HOF, I am sick of losing and I don't care how we win as long as we win. This attitude that we hope Jones sucks and we earn a top pick is a miserable way to look at it. You can say Jones might not be the guy and I am not sure he is but I hope he is, we need to win more than we lose this season.
The Chase Young stuff is a great example of the serendipity of the draft. But imagine if the Bengals won two more games and WAS got Burrow instead of Young. Sometimes losing is good. Probabilistically, you're more likely to get a better player the higher you draft. So I would have preferred to lose more last season.
Washington had no QB and they passed on Tua and Herbert. That isn't discussed enough.
Let's hope the Giants didn't make the same mistake this year.
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Yes. I don't root against the team, of course, but I am pretty emotionless one way or the other once we're out of it.
The Chase Young stuff is a great example of the serendipity of the draft. But imagine if the Bengals won two more games and WAS got Burrow instead of Young. Sometimes losing is good. Probabilistically, you're more likely to get a better player the higher you draft. So I would have preferred to lose more last season.
Washington had no QB and they passed on Tua and Herbert. That isn't discussed enough.
Let's hope the Giants didn't make the same mistake this year.
Great point, Sean. Maybe if they won those games against the Giants, Herbert is a Commander.
We are not magically getting a new QB at this point. Hope that DJ is a good QB with a better cast to work with. The idea that he can’t win is stupid as well. They won in 2022 with a terrible roster. 2023 was just the worst start against a very tough schedule, the whole team played poorly.
If you are hoping that DJ becomes a top 5 QB is not being realistic. I think he can be a good QB in this league. This is his last shot to prove that with the Giants. I don’t get the concept of rooting to lose before the season starts. Lots can happen between now and then.
In any event, I root for the team to win until they are eliminated from the playoffs. At that point I believe that any player who isn’t going to be on the team the following year should sit to allow a younger player to get experience and build for the future. It’s not to lose, it’s to prepare. I thought DeVito should have started every game at the end of the season. The young secondary guys should have started as well.
That’s my 2 cents
I would be more thrilled if Jones came out and played like Patrick Mahomes and proved he was the answer and the team was suddenly a contender. That just isn’t at all realistic. Then it is time to move off of him. That won’t happen at 7-10 and a likely mediocre QB class coming out in 2025.
If the team needs to go 3-14 to get an honest rebuild started, including the most important position on the field, sign me up! If Daboll has to go, that is the cost. I think he is a good coach but if you told me we could get Vrabel in next year I would take Daboll to the airport myself. He was part of re-singing Jones, having no punt returner, and bringing back Shep as a team mascot, so he is somewhat responsible for the continued ineptness of this team.
Logically, I'd prefer the outcome that expedites them moving on from him.
I know that violates the magical fan code, but I have problem acknowledging I prefer that outcome.
How that positions the Giants in the draft is a different point.
Logically, I'd prefer the outcome that expedites them moving on from him.
I know that violates the magical fan code, but I have problem acknowledging I prefer that outcome.
How that positions the Giants in the draft is a different point.
They're never going to move on from Jones. He's going to retire as a Giant at the age of 46. He'll have his number retired and own concourse named after him, and it will be a garden as well. The Daniel Jones garden with a big grass hedge (or whatever) in the shape of a big huge "8"
They're never going to move on from Jones. He's going to retire as a Giant at the age of 46. He'll have his number retired and own concourse named after him, and it will be a garden as well. The Daniel Jones garden with a big grass hedge (or whatever) in the shape of a big huge "8"
You forgot the small dainty tattoo Mara will get on the bottom of his wrist. He might mix it up and get a number 8. Should fit next to his Eli and SB ones.
Logically, I'd prefer the outcome that expedites them moving on from him.
I know that violates the magical fan code, but I have problem acknowledging I prefer that outcome.
How that positions the Giants in the draft is a different point.
Agree Christian. Does anyone really think one read Jones can take down elite QB’s like Mahomes in the big game? That’s the real question.
The discussion is about fans. Fans don't play.
While this may seem counter intuitive, it is the only logical feeling that makes sense.
Recognizing that we have no control is pivotal to our enjoyment of the game.
Believing that our angst regarding the direction, or rather our perception of said direction, is somehow meaningful, is illogical.
I personally like to take a long term view of what will bring sustained success and a chance to win more championships to the Giants. Therefore, in a lost season, I get aggravated at meaningless wins because a higher draft pick in theory contributes to the long term success of the team.
There are those that have the lens of season by season and sunny necessarily look beyond the current season of what outcomes may negatively impact the future seasons.
I don't think the Giants can win a championship with Jones, therefore, I think they are wasting their time with him and it gives a dim hope for the long term prospects of the Giants being able to compete.
While I won't be rooting against the Giants until the season is lost, I don't have high hopes that Jones is going to take the next step. My preferred outcome is one that gets Jones off the team but keeps Schoen and Daboll.
I am a firm believer in prioritizing QB over all other positions in today's NFL, hence my above position. With injuries it's impossible to surround a mediocre QB with elite talent and hope they stay healthy all year.
christian you seem to be steering everyone toward your POV with your replies to various posts - consciously or unconsciously. I don't think you are doing it on purpose - just an observation IMHO. Nothing nefarious.
Funnily enough, I will go into a late year games hoping or seeing a need for a loss for a better draft position, yet once the game starts I want the win. I cannot root for a loss - I can justify a loss afterward because of the draft but cannot root for a loss.
As to the Chase Young Bowl - it is not a banner waver. It is just the point that you never know what happens in a draft. They may very well have taken Thomas anyway at #2. IIRC, both Young and one of the OTs were the convo at that point.
But hoping for losses and getting those losses will have unintended consequences, too. Yes we want Jones gone and a new QB drafted. Most want Daboll and Schoen to stay(not all but most). 3-14 is an excuse to move on and the pitchforks will be out on BBI. Yet, winning may give Jones enough boost to stay and be semi-mediocre again.
Good thread...
The other issue is the exit NYG has off the Jones contract after this year.
There won't be consensus here until February of 2025 where we see the actions. My position is not that Nabers was about another weapon for Jones, it was Schoen/Daboll want a WR1 and this was the time to do it. I'd have taken the QB, but I'm not going to default to NYG wants Jones and no one else because they didn't take a QB.
As for the KOC/Payton argument - well, Nix was a very specific fit for Payton. Payton admitted he had no interest in any other QB. KOC let McCarthy come to him - did they even try to trade up for him beyond moving up one pick? I don't know.
And, NYG did try to trade up for Maye. Unless you believe that was a charade too.
The truth is likely to be far less extreme. Schoen & Daboll like Jones until they don't. Duggan came out with an article about how NYG needs cap space. If they are so bullish on the QB - restructure him. Then I'd really believe they love him.
I personally like to take a long term view of what will bring sustained success and a chance to win more championships to the Giants. Therefore, in a lost season, I get aggravated at meaningless wins because a higher draft pick in theory contributes to the long term success of the team.
There are those that have the lens of season by season and sunny necessarily look beyond the current season of what outcomes may negatively impact the future seasons.
I don't think the Giants can win a championship with Jones, therefore, I think they are wasting their time with him and it gives a dim hope for the long term prospects of the Giants being able to compete.
While I won't be rooting against the Giants until the season is lost, I don't have high hopes that Jones is going to take the next step. My preferred outcome is one that gets Jones off the team but keeps Schoen and Daboll.
I am a firm believer in prioritizing QB over all other positions in today's NFL, hence my above position. With injuries it's impossible to surround a mediocre QB with elite talent and hope they stay healthy all year.
Outstanding post. I agree 100%.
I don't believe this team will ever be a serious contender for a championship with Jones as our starting QB. I don't believe any "can't miss" WR or offensive lineman will change that without the QB. What I am rooting for, is whatever gets us a true franchise QB as soon as possible. So if the team gets off to a slow start and shows little to no improvement, I'm completely comfortable with hoping for bad outcomes. Until we get the QB, I don't give a crap about winning 7 or 8 games a season. I'd rather the wheels fall completely off, putting us in a position to get the best possible QB prospect without sacrificing premium future draft picks to move up for said prospect.
Once the QB is in place, I'll always root for wins because all other facets of the team are much easier to improve via the draft and/or free agency. As someone once said, until you have the QB, you're always looking for one.
1) Will losing help change the choices the team makes with current players?
2) Does losing help the chances of choosing better players in the draft?
3) Does playing younger player when you're eliminated benefit the team even if it decreases the chances of winning?
I get the pros and cons of 2 and 3, but I absolutely don't understand the other side to number 3.
I don't think it was a charade, but I think it shows their risk tolerance is low.
The most underreported and under-discussed variable is Jones is less expensive in 2025. Keeping Jones for the 2025 season will cost 30M in new cash. That's going to be 10M+ less than the franchise tag.
Will a relatively healthy 7-10 season, with middling production move them off an affordable quarterback they know and have vouched for repeatedly?
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It seems some believe that won't ever happen. I don't think the QB work was all a charade.
I don't think it was a charade, but I think it shows their risk tolerance is low.
The most underreported and under-discussed variable is Jones is less expensive in 2025. Keeping Jones for the 2025 season will cost 30M in new cash. That's going to be 10M+ less than the franchise tag.
Will a relatively healthy 7-10 season, with middling production move them off an affordable quarterback they know and have vouched for repeatedly?
Good point on 2025/Jones contract....I believe it depends on what he does in 2024. If he actually plays slightly better than 2022, he likely stays - it also means they probably won 9 or more games and takes them out of the 2025 QB Sweepstakes...uggggghhhhhh!
If he's healthy all season and the Giants return to a middle of the pack offense, I think it will be very easy for them to rationalize keeping him for another 1/30M.
If he's healthy all season and the Giants return to a middle of the pack offense, I think it will be very easy for them to rationalize keeping him for another 1/30M.
damned if you do and damned if you don't
That gets to my unintended consequences point. Likely a new staff for the Giants.
I agree with this.
Last season is the first time I could remember actually hoping that the Giants would lose games. I would turn them off as I couldn’t watch and actively root for a loss.
Reality is, and today’s NFL, you need either a legit franchise quarterback that gets paid or a QB on a rookie contract good enough to lead a team to a championship.
Once the Giants are out of contention, plowing for draft position has its positives. The only real problem I see with playing younger players over currently better vets is that it can create a bad team culture. The flipside is that players really understands what is necessary to get to a Super Bowl.
Regardless, as others have said, players will always play to win and if they are not, then that is a real problem.
If they win 3, everyone did a really bad job. Last year felt like a 3 win year, but they won 6. Things have to go REALLY bad to only win 3. That's hard to do.
The big variable is Jones' ability to run off the ACL and him generally being able to stay healthy. That's a big ask for him. 2022 was the only season he did not miss any time.
That is the equivalent of NFL hell...a middling team trotting back Jones @ QB.
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Sean, I agree. I think the Giants will win 7-8 games and Jones will return in 2025.
The big variable is Jones' ability to run off the ACL and him generally being able to stay healthy. That's a big ask for him. 2022 was the only season he did not miss any time.
We already know players returning from ACL surgery do not do that well in the 1st year returning. I doubt Daboll runs as many RPOs as previously called; I doubt Jones is the least bit effective running.
If he's healthy all season and the Giants return to a middle of the pack offense, I think it will be very easy for them to rationalize keeping him for another 1/30M.
The 2022 defense had some insanely well timed turnovers that are hard to count on. I think the record led to an overrating of the quality of the 2022 season (for Wink, Jones, etc.).
I admire your zen attitude.
May I ask a question?
What if you know the author sucks? Do you still read the book?
What if you guve the author a chance for the ___nth time and, alas, the book still sucks- do you keep reading?
Now what if you knew that a few more bad chapters and the books have a great chance to be amazing?….
I'm way more invested and knowledgeable on football, so I certainly care more about the in between.
The other issue is the exit NYG has off the Jones contract after this year.
There won't be consensus here until February of 2025 where we see the actions. My position is not that Nabers was about another weapon for Jones, it was Schoen/Daboll want a WR1 and this was the time to do it. I'd have taken the QB, but I'm not going to default to NYG wants Jones and no one else because they didn't take a QB.
As for the KOC/Payton argument - well, Nix was a very specific fit for Payton. Payton admitted he had no interest in any other QB. KOC let McCarthy come to him - did they even try to trade up for him beyond moving up one pick? I don't know.
And, NYG did try to trade up for Maye. Unless you believe that was a charade too.
The truth is likely to be far less extreme. Schoen & Daboll like Jones until they don't. Duggan came out with an article about how NYG needs cap space. If they are so bullish on the QB - restructure him. Then I'd really believe they love him.
I wholeheartedly agree on your take. I honestly think that the Giants had interest in quarterbacks and there WERE a lot of signs that they were looking. It all started with not picking up Daniel Jones fifth year option. JS was pegged into the corner after the 2022 season to make a difficult decision on resigning Jones. Unfortunately, the decision was not in his favor with the results of 2023. However, the structure of the contract points that they’re was still no solid trust, as there is an opportunity to get out of the contract in 2025 with a palatable hit on the cap.
You do bring up a good point that if they really are intending to stickiwith Jones, they would’ve restructured his contract already to sign more free agents. As we say and “ kicking the can down the road“. This would have been a vote of confidence in Daniel Jones.
I have a funny feeling that they have more faith than most on this board about the 2025 QB class. If they are middle the road at 7-10, say, they could probably get a QB. Kansas City and Buffalo did not get their QBs in the top three. The staff is going to do their due diligence again and you will see JS out there scouting on Saturdays like he did last year.
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Sean, I agree. I think the Giants will win 7-8 games and Jones will return in 2025.
That is the equivalent of NFL hell...a middling team trotting back Jones @ QB.
Disagree here...
If we're only on pace to win 7-8 games two things will happen: 1)Jones will be replaced mid season by Lock and 2) DJ won't be back in '25
I'm hoping DJ can do it but the fan base will make it impossible for DJ to continue under center if we're sitting mid season with a 3-5 record, especially if Lock has a shows well in the preseason which I'm confident he will.
The other issue is the exit NYG has off the Jones contract after this year.
There won't be consensus here until February of 2025 where we see the actions. My position is not that Nabers was about another weapon for Jones, it was Schoen/Daboll want a WR1 and this was the time to do it. I'd have taken the QB, but I'm not going to default to NYG wants Jones and no one else because they didn't take a QB.
As for the KOC/Payton argument - well, Nix was a very specific fit for Payton. Payton admitted he had no interest in any other QB. KOC let McCarthy come to him - did they even try to trade up for him beyond moving up one pick? I don't know.
And, NYG did try to trade up for Maye. Unless you believe that was a charade too.
The truth is likely to be far less extreme. Schoen & Daboll like Jones until they don't. Duggan came out with an article about how NYG needs cap space. If they are so bullish on the QB - restructure him. Then I'd really believe they love him.
Separately, my issue is that they didn't take a shot on goal anywhere in their three drafts here.
Not liking the remaining QBs and valuing Nabers highly is fine, I get that. But no pick anywhere?
Why isn't Brock Purdy a Giant? He wouldn't carry this team to contention, but he is clearly a staring caliber QB.
I don't think people understand how terrible Drew Lock is. The prospect of watching Lock and Jones this year is just depressing.
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In comment 16519428 christian said:
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Sean, I agree. I think the Giants will win 7-8 games and Jones will return in 2025.
That is the equivalent of NFL hell...a middling team trotting back Jones @ QB.
Disagree here...
If we're only on pace to win 7-8 games two things will happen: 1)Jones will be replaced mid season by Lock and 2) DJ won't be back in '25
I'm hoping DJ can do it but the fan base will make it impossible for DJ to continue under center if we're sitting mid season with a 3-5 record, especially if Lock has a shows well in the preseason which I'm confident he will.
7-8 win pace is enough to keep plugging away to try and make the playoffs, especially in this crappy NFC. You're 5-6 11 games, you're not making a change at QB most likely.
It's just a massive sin to me. Of the QBs with top ten QBRs (QBR isn't perfect, obviously, but want to use it as a quick indicator) in 2023, three were drafted after the first.
I totally support the Pats taking Maye and Milton. But we took none.
Neither Schoen nor Daboll have sufficient pelts on the wall for me to trust their judgement on the QBs to begin with, lol. I think there's a decent chance that Schoen is a dumbass, so I'm still very skeptical.
But rooting for the team to be 3-14 before it starts because you don't like the QB is a total head scratcher. If we are a 3 win team, we are many years away and the reason is well beyond Daniel Jones. It will mean the last three years have been an utter failure and we are likely looking at another three years before should expect to be competitive.
DJ is not the answer, this is a severely irrational thought to root for organization incompetence because you don't like the QB on a team who has already shown they no longer see him as the answer. You have to have a serious hate for the guy to go there, IMO.
Thankfully this team isn't going to draft a QB they don't believe in just to appease the fans who continue to talk as if the actions of the former regime is somehow on them. This group has not passed on any obvious QB options and have addressed a lot of other very big needs with their picks. Unfortunately we are not in position to take fliers on picks. Drew Lock is not some talentless schmuck and will be given chance to compete. The NE QB they picked up on the waiver has as much upside as some of the QBs taken in this draft after round 1. So despite the typical complaints, they are not sitting back and doing nothing at the position, you have to look at all moves not just draft where they only had 6 picks and lots of needs. They have done things at the position in FA, which is what smart teams do, you use FA to set yourself up to not have to force positions in the draft. It may or may not work out, but this idea that they are neglecting the position is simply not true. Lock is young and has actually shown some things on tape if you bothered to watch. I'm curious to see what Daboll can do with him.
Signing Drew Lock on a shorter cheaper contract than what they paid Taylor two years ago isn't a substantive investment.
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In everything you do you play to do your best and WIN!!!!
Sometimes in life you play your best to learn and make mistakes, to ultimately win.
This happens in business all of the time. Startups choose to lose money and not worry about profitability. They focus on testing things out, failing fast, and proving concepts. Only then do they worry about traditional measurable results.
The path to winning often times requires intentional losing.
I don't believe that the path to winning requires intentional losing.
You can learn and test ideas, skills and strategies without intentionally losing... You may indeed go into something recognizing that is the likely outcome, but intentionally losing is not how I would define that in any way.
I agree. First half of 2022 SB was almost like rookie year SB again. The teams poor 2nd half of the season coincidenced with his drop in production
I give Barkley credit without taking it away from Jones. Jones running was very much part of the equation and Daboll knowing which switches to pull.
Signing Drew Lock on a shorter cheaper contract than what they paid Taylor two years ago isn't a substantive investment.
I think Jones is bad but he beats out Lock 100%.
I think this defense is going to be okay, but think 3-5 wins is in the picture if we have Lock start.
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More like Barkley took a low talented team to the playoffs. Jones did ok and had some of his best games of his career in 2022, but Giants don't see the playoffs without Barkley in 2022. I'd lean more the credit Barkley's way than Jones.
I give Barkley credit without taking it away from Jones. Jones running was very much part of the equation and Daboll knowing which switches to pull.
Personally I think Barkleys presence set up those Jones runs. Most of the time they would fake to Barkley in some manner, and then Jones would keep it and run through a wide open hole. After a while defenses got smart to this and kept a player to watch for the Jones runs. I don't think Jones get those holes without Barkley on the field
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In comment 16519557 Route 9 said:
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More like Barkley took a low talented team to the playoffs. Jones did ok and had some of his best games of his career in 2022, but Giants don't see the playoffs without Barkley in 2022. I'd lean more the credit Barkley's way than Jones.
I give Barkley credit without taking it away from Jones. Jones running was very much part of the equation and Daboll knowing which switches to pull.
Personally I think Barkleys presence set up those Jones runs. Most of the time they would fake to Barkley in some manner, and then Jones would keep it and run through a wide open hole. After a while defenses got smart to this and kept a player to watch for the Jones runs. I don't think Jones get those holes without Barkley on the field
You do know that is how the RPO works, right? QB reads the defense and either hands off, makes a quick pass or holds it and runs. So yes the threat of Barkley helped.
I guess I have more faith in Lock here than most others. I do see us winning 7-9 games, but then I see us letting Jones go and giving Lock the job (because I think they are basically the same). Then we go and try to get a QB either in FA or the draft, pushing Lock to backup (or short term starter if its a rookie QB who isn't ready).
If we can be .500 with Jones/Lock, we may be only a QB away at that point
If the Giants were looking for a bridge starter, the previous guy fits that bill more.
If Daboll has an incantation that magically makes Lock better than Jones, they'll make him the headmaster at Hogwarts.
if it's the end of the season with 1-2 weeks left and nothing on the line, a loss that moves you up a couple slots in the draft order also fine.
when you believe in the regime, i think it's better to get wins. wins create credibility and belief, losing diminishes both.
if it's the right regime they will get the jones decisions right and upgrade when they get the right chance. "but they overpaid him blah blah blah" - maybe but the decision to bring him back was pretty universal. instead of tag they rolled the dice to get extra years of control but that's pretty normal compared to what most other teams have done in their situation (seahawks, bucs, etc).
The Giants guaranteed Jones 2 years while the Bucs and Seahawks guaranteed 1 year respectively.
It's like the line in Contact. First rule in government spending: why build one when you can have two at twice the price?
The Giants guaranteed Jones 2 years while the Bucs and Seahawks guaranteed 1 year respectively.
It's like the line in Contact. First rule in government spending: why build one when you can have two at twice the price?
and yet it's year 2 with geno smith is still in seattle, and year 2 of you missing the point.
the terms each player is/was able to demand is a function of whatever their market prices were. the point isnt that their contracts were exactly the same but rather that their teams chose to keep them off winning seasons with the option to keep them for multiple seasons. likely knowing that finding upgrades on even mediocre starters isn't as easy in reality as it is on message boards.
Geno Smith - At the conclusion of a 9-8 4200/30/11 2022 season the Seahawks gave Smith ~one year in AAV guaranteed, with the two yearly options (3/75M). At the conclusion of an 8-7 3600/20/9 2023 they picked up year two.
Daniel Jones - At the conclusion of a 9-6-1 3200/15/5 season the Giants gave Jones two years in AAV guarantees with two yearly options (4/160). At the conclusion of a 1-5/2/6 season the Giants had no choice on year two.
The point is when you have a mediocre quarterback who popped his head above water for the first time, you proceed with caution.
I'll take your point a lot more seriously if you say out loud you think the Giants would have picked up the second year for the mediocre Daniel Jones at 40M if they had the choice last month.
After all it's really hard to replace mediocre quarterbacks, right?
Geno Smith - At the conclusion of a 9-8 4200/30/11 2022 season the Seahawks gave Smith ~one year in AAV guaranteed, with the two yearly options (3/75M). At the conclusion of an 8-7 3600/20/9 2023 they picked up year two.
Daniel Jones - At the conclusion of a 9-6-1 3200/15/5 season the Giants gave Jones two years in AAV guarantees with two yearly options (4/160). At the conclusion of a 1-5/2/6 season the Giants had no choice on year two.
The point is when you have a mediocre quarterback who popped his head above water for the first time, you proceed with caution.
I'll take your point a lot more seriously if you say out loud you think the Giants would have picked up the second year for the mediocre Daniel Jones at 40M if they had the choice last month.
After all it's really hard to replace mediocre quarterbacks, right?
they didnt sign him with the foreknowledge he'd tear his acl, but even still it does appear by their actions they came pretty close to picking up that fictional option up since he's still their starting QB and all. they had the injury and at least 2 alternative paths they could have taken, multiple of which will start this season.
but hey, you just keep grinding down whatever point suits you at whichever time. last year you didnt think team jones did all that good, now you're on the worst deal ever train. and for whatever reason you're emotional enough about it you ignored my actual point that intended to answer your question - that if the guys making the decisions on players like jones arent the right people, nothing else really matters. but hey, why waste a chance to spend another thread arguing about daniel jones.
Jones is on the team because every literal penny of the cash he was owed this year was guaranteed. It wasn't a defacto option, they saved literally no money getting rid of him.
The shroud of the bad contract they gave him was seared into this year no matter the choice.
My view on Jones was always they should have tagged him. My view on how well he did was that given the emotional investment ownership has in him, I was surprised he didn't secure a practical guarantee in the third year.
In the pecking order of long-term veteran deals he's in third group (I believe the frame I used was the C+ group). A group Watson/Mahomes B group Murray/Prescott C group Jones/Carr.
Among all of the smaller sums of money we've debated and tortured. The mid-7 figure deals like Campbell, the low 8 figure deals like Glowinksi, the virtues of spreading a 8M in restructure money over 1 vs. 3 years, it's surprising to me how little negative space you give to the incremental 50M they gave Jones over the alternative.
The answer is no. Given the option to pay Jones 40M this year or let him go. No, they don't pay it.
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if it's the right regime they will get the jones decisions right and upgrade when they get the right chance. "but they overpaid him blah blah blah" - maybe but the decision to bring him back was pretty universal. instead of tag they rolled the dice to get extra years of control but that's pretty normal compared to what most other teams have done in their situation (seahawks, bucs, etc).
Jones is on the team because every literal penny of the cash he was owed this year was guaranteed. It wasn't a defacto option, they saved literally no money getting rid of him.
The shroud of the bad contract they gave him was seared into this year no matter the choice.
My view on Jones was always they should have tagged him. My view on how well he did was that given the emotional investment ownership has in him, I was surprised he didn't secure a practical guarantee in the third year.
In the pecking order of long-term veteran deals he's in third group (I believe the frame I used was the C+ group). A group Watson/Mahomes B group Murray/Prescott C group Jones/Carr.
Among all of the smaller sums of money we've debated and tortured. The mid-7 figure deals like Campbell, the low 8 figure deals like Glowinksi, the virtues of spreading a 8M in restructure money over 1 vs. 3 years, it's surprising to me how little negative space you give to the incremental 50M they gave Jones over the alternative.
The answer is no. Given the option to pay Jones 40M this year or let him go. No, they don't pay it.
I replied to the thread's question "Are You Comfortable Hoping for Bad Outcomes?" but it appears the question was kubuki theater into the same daniel jones arguments that fill up almost every other thread. my first post here explains why that's fallacy. if there are bad outcomes this year there's regime next year. you can tie yourself into knots trying to think of a definition of "bad outcome" where that's not the case but if you want daboll gone then root for bad outcomes. every other decision is downstream from that.
If you think the current staff will move on from Jones when the right option presents itself, that's a perfectly good place to begin and end. WTF Baker Mayfield has to do with it is beyond everyone but you.
My view is the staff and management believe in him, as evidenced by the size of the commitment. And that given the decrease in new cash next year, an average season will tip scales in his favor. Like you said, it's difficult to replace a mediocre quarterback. Especially when you really like him.
If you think the current staff will move on from Jones when the right option presents itself, that's a perfectly good place to begin and end. WTF Baker Mayfield has to do with it is beyond everyone but you.
My view is the staff and management believe in him, as evidenced by the size of the commitment. And that given the decrease in new cash next year, an average season will tip scales in his favor. Like you said, it's difficult to replace a mediocre quarterback. Especially when you really like him.
there was no false equivalency about the jones/mayfield/smith contracts, there was equivalency in them being 3 non-elite qbs whose non-contender teams extended them for multiple seasons because they liked them better than their other options.
that equivalency also goes by "reality".
In comment 16519791 Eric on Li said:
if it's the end of the season with 1-2 weeks left and nothing on the line, a loss that moves you up a couple slots in the draft order also fine.
when you believe in the regime, i think it's better to get wins. wins create credibility and belief, losing diminishes both.
if it's the right regime they will get the jones decisions right and upgrade when they get the right chance. "but they overpaid him blah blah blah" - maybe but the decision to bring him back was pretty universal. instead of tag they rolled the dice to get extra years of control but that's pretty normal compared to what most other teams have done in their situation (seahawks, bucs, etc).
8 or 9 wins however? Absolutely, and believe it or not, I don't neccessarily believe that's a horrible thing if Jones plays like he did in 2022. He was an above-average QB in 2022 based on the advanced metrics. That baseline would guarantee we'd be watching somewhat entertaining football.
Is there value in being a perpetual 8 or 9 win team? I don't think there's zero value unless your mentality is "Superbowl or bust." I do agree that the Superbowl is the ultimate goal, but have the Giants really earned the right as a franchise to be thinking that way based on recent history? We talk about them being mediocre, but mediocre would actually be a major step up; the'yve been one of the worst teams in the league.
If the Schoen/Daboll/Jones era lasted through 2025 and the next two years were around 8 or 9 wins, that would demonstrate the Giants have reached at least some basic level of sustained organizational competence from 2022-2025. It would then keep their heads above water long enough to actually identify that Superbowl competing QB ala the Chiefs with Mahomes, or even the Bills with Allen or the Ravens with Jackson (remember, both of these teams were in 8-9 win range when they made the moves).
I still feel this discussion is completely moot though because I strongly believe Jones is going to flop based on losing his mobility, and the energy is going to get real toxic starting in week 1 when the Giants lose to the Vikings similar to the Broncos in 2021.
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And your reply was literally about Daniel Jones. Why is this a confounding outcome to you?
Your point appears to be winning more games is better, because if this is the right regime they will make the right decision regardless of circumstances. With the implication being they made the right decision last time (otherwise why bring up Smith and Mayfield?)
You just don't seem willing to acknowledge the material difference between guaranteeing twice as many years and twice as much money. The level of commitment they made to Jones was 100% greater than the two examples you continue to reference. You're right they're all well below elite quarterbacks, one of them just got twice as much money.
I'm not ready to predict how week one will go, but if they do get smoked by Minnesota, I agree things will get really nasty.
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I still feel this discussion is completely moot though because I strongly believe Jones is going to flop based on losing his mobility, and the energy is going to get real toxic starting in week 1 when the Giants lose to the Vikings similar to the Broncos in 2021.
I'm not ready to predict how week one will go, but if they do get smoked by Minnesota, I agree things will get really nasty.
Yeah, I don't mean to derail a thoughtful discussion with predictions, but man, I've tried to talk myself into a Jones comeback season many times and I just don't see it at all, and I was someone who predicted that he would play well in 2022.
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I still feel this discussion is completely moot though because I strongly believe Jones is going to flop based on losing his mobility, and the energy is going to get real toxic starting in week 1 when the Giants lose to the Vikings similar to the Broncos in 2021.
I'm not ready to predict how week one will go, but if they do get smoked by Minnesota, I agree things will get really nasty.
You mean if they get smoked by McCarthy? Yeah that won't go well. But Minnesota is a pretty good team, anyway.
I think it will take some time for Jones to work himself into shape.
But with the additional pass catching talent, and if (big if) the pass protection stabilizes, I don't discount Jones can return to mediocrity.
I think a very plausible outcome is 7-8 wins and Jones returns in 2025. As I noted above, his price lowers for 2025, from 36M in new cash down to 30M.
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In comment 16520204 Lambuth_Special said:
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I still feel this discussion is completely moot though because I strongly believe Jones is going to flop based on losing his mobility, and the energy is going to get real toxic starting in week 1 when the Giants lose to the Vikings similar to the Broncos in 2021.
I'm not ready to predict how week one will go, but if they do get smoked by Minnesota, I agree things will get really nasty.
You mean if they get smoked by McCarthy? Yeah that won't go well. But Minnesota is a pretty good team, anyway.
Still hasn't stopped a lot Giants fans and pundits from marking the team as 1-0 after week 1 despite a lot of factors working against them (primarily Jones's historical struggles in early season home games).
You mean if they get smoked by McCarthy? Yeah that won't go well. But Minnesota is a pretty good team, anyway.
The two games I have circled are Minnesota and Pittsburgh. If the Giants get outclassed by a rookie a McCarthy and a rejuvenated Wilson, I believe things get ugly with the press and fans.
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I've tried to talk myself into a Jones comeback season many times and I just don't see it at all, and I was someone who predicted that he would play well in 2022.
I think it will take some time for Jones to work himself into shape.
But with the additional pass catching talent, and if (big if) the pass protection stabilizes, I don't discount Jones can return to mediocrity.
I think a very plausible outcome is 7-8 wins and Jones returns in 2025. As I noted above, his price lowers for 2025, from 36M in new cash down to 30M.
I'm realatively sanguine athat this outcome won't happen. Either the team struggles out the gate and Jones is quickly repleaced or he makes this mythical, long-anticipated sustained leap as a passer (we have to remember his major value in 2022 was running) and the team is competitive and we're generally more ok with the state of things.
I don't see the 7 win outcome as likely. Given the schedule, it's seems possible those wins would be backloaded and I doubt Jones would keep his job long enough in those circumstances.
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I'm not ready to predict how week one will go, but if they do get smoked by Minnesota, I agree things will get really nasty.
You mean if they get smoked by McCarthy? Yeah that won't go well. But Minnesota is a pretty good team, anyway.
The two games I have circled are Minnesota and Pittsburgh. If the Giants get outclassed by a rookie a McCarthy and a rejuvenated Wilson, I believe things get ugly with the press and fans.
You do realize that Wilson chose to go to the better team with the better chance at the playoffs, correct? Wilson had a choice to go where he wanted and went to the better team while he rebuilds his brand.
FWIW, I doubt McCarthy is the starter...
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In comment 16520235 section125 said:
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I'm not ready to predict how week one will go, but if they do get smoked by Minnesota, I agree things will get really nasty.
You mean if they get smoked by McCarthy? Yeah that won't go well. But Minnesota is a pretty good team, anyway.
The two games I have circled are Minnesota and Pittsburgh. If the Giants get outclassed by a rookie a McCarthy and a rejuvenated Wilson, I believe things get ugly with the press and fans.
You do realize that Wilson chose to go to the better team with the better chance at the playoffs, correct? Wilson had a choice to go where he wanted and went to the better team while he rebuilds his brand.
FWIW, I doubt McCarthy is the starter...
Getting smoked by Darnold will barely be any better (ie "we could've had him for NOTHING')
Getting smoked by Darnold will barely be any better (ie "we could've had him for NOTHING')
No getting "smoked" is bad. I doubt it can be done by Darnold...
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Getting smoked by Darnold will barely be any better (ie "we could've had him for NOTHING')
No getting "smoked" is bad. I doubt it can be done by Darnold...
I don't know, Darnold has been ok his last 7-8 NFL starts. I'm getting shades of Teddy Bridgewater smoking that 2021 team.
From 2018, we had zero chance because of Gettleman. Still in 2024 we have zero chance because of sweet Daniel. Whatever it takes to rid ourselves of this loser is good with me. I'd very much like to keep Daboll. He is a good coach. But we have no chance with Jones and a massive attachment to him from ownership. It's miserable.
All he has to do is play at a backup level and the job is his for life. So unfortunately we need some (more) bad things to happen for this team to have a chance to actually be good and actually compete in high stakes games against good teams. It's a terrible place to be as a fan, but here we are. Thanks, John.
You do realize that Wilson chose to go to the better team with the better chance at the playoffs, correct? Wilson had a choice to go where he wanted and went to the better team while he rebuilds his brand.
FWIW, I doubt McCarthy is the starter...
What I realize is Wilson visited the Giants and the report was he got no assurance he would start.
And whether he ultimately would or would not have chosen New York, the reporting and fan reaction won't be very nuanced if he kicks the Giants ass.
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The two games I have circled are Minnesota and Pittsburgh. If the Giants get outclassed by a rookie a McCarthy and a rejuvenated Wilson, I believe things get ugly with the press and fans.
You do realize that Wilson chose to go to the better team with the better chance at the playoffs, correct? Wilson had a choice to go where he wanted and went to the better team while he rebuilds his brand.
FWIW, I doubt McCarthy is the starter...
What I realize is Wilson visited the Giants and the report was he got no assurance he would start.
And whether he ultimately would or would not have chosen New York, the reporting and fan reaction won't be very nuanced if he kicks the Giants ass.
Nobody is guaranteed a starting job in an open competition, are they? Why would they guarantee him the starting job? Wilson played like absolute dogshit his previous two years. He played so poorly Sean Payton wanted him gone at any cost- now that is doing something.
Your posts seem to suggest that you want them to get embarrassed....
Whether you believe he should or shouldn't have been given a strong indication he could be the starter, if the Giants have a dog at QB and Wilson shines, this will be a hotly debated topic.
Well, maybe enjoyable isn't the right word. Fascinating...yeah, that's it, but it's a grotesque kind of fascination. It's like driving past a car accident. You just have to look.
Man, I love those two guys.
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This year, I can't shake the idea that I would rather Daniel Jones unequivocally show he's not the answer, than tread water. I have no problem acknowledging I would rather the team go 3-14 than 7-10.
And your reply was literally about Daniel Jones. Why is this a confounding outcome to you?
Your point appears to be winning more games is better, because if this is the right regime they will make the right decision regardless of circumstances. With the implication being they made the right decision last time (otherwise why bring up Smith and Mayfield?)
You just don't seem willing to acknowledge the material difference between guaranteeing twice as many years and twice as much money. The level of commitment they made to Jones was 100% greater than the two examples you continue to reference. You're right they're all well below elite quarterbacks, one of them just got twice as much money.
a) I entered a thread that asked the question about rooting for bad outcomes or not and answered that question.
b) My reply didnt include details about Jones' contract because i dont think they are particularly relevant to my point. you shifted the conversation that way and i've tried 3x now to explain why the specific guarantees they landed on dont impact the point im making. before agreeing to any details they first had to decide if they wanted to keep jones or not.
c) Re: the bold the implication was not that they made the right decision with Jones or that Mayfield/Smith were good decisions - but rather that bringing him back one way or the other was the same decision 99% would have made last year. Even the thread starter rooting against Daniel Jones would have at least tagged him, so their binary decision to bring him back or not bring him back wasn't some unconventional mistake. It was chalk. The contract they decided to give him is separate from that but wanting multiple years of a QB they liked is again justifiable even if it ends up not working out the same way the Russell Wilson trade was justifiable even if it spectacularly didn't work out. Or the Carr/Cousins deals in FA. Or the Jimmy G deal last year.
Denver's bigger mistake there was clearly getting the Hackett decision wrong - which is my point. As may be NO/ATL's mistakes with their decisions if Allen/Fontenot/Morris end up being the wrong choices.
Sean Payton may or may not have been the right choice at HC and the contract didn't stop him from making the decisions at QB he felt he had to make.
If you like Daboll root for him to win, if you don't root against. If you like Daboll but dislike Jones so much you want to root against him, then i guess you are in a sophies choice because they are probably linked for at least 1 more year.
Whether you believe he should or shouldn't have been given a strong indication he could be the starter, if the Giants have a dog at QB and Wilson shines, this will be a hotly debated topic.
Yes, he was so good, Payton benched him and got rid of him as fast as he could, eating a huge contract. That is a clear indication of what the Broncos thought of him. (to the Broncos credit and perhaps a lesson that Schoen should embrace)
If you were Wilson and the Giants and Pittsburgh offered the same assurances, where would you go? Pretty simple decision in my eyes. Clearly the Steelers are the far better team with a better chance at the playoffs(well maybe not in that division). In which way are the Giants remotely a better choice for Wilson?
B) Your first post on this thread brought up Jones's compensation, I didn't steer you in that direction.
Eric on Li : 5/19/2024 5:05 pm : link : reply
if it's the right regime they will get the jones decisions right and upgrade when they get the right chance. "but they overpaid him blah blah blah" - maybe but the decision to bring him back was pretty universal. instead of tag they rolled the dice to get extra years of control but that's pretty normal compared to what most other teams have done in their situation (seahawks, bucs, etc).
C) No matter how many times you say it, there's more to it than a binary choice. The details of the compensation and commitment were materially different. Making a 1/27M commitment to Geno Smith is a materially different action than making a 2/82M to Daniel Jones. And it speaks to the level of confidence and desire they had for the player.
You are what you spend your money on, no?
Whether you believe he should or shouldn't have been given a strong indication he could be the starter, if the Giants have a dog at QB and Wilson shines, this will be a hotly debated topic.
Yes, he was so good, Payton benched him and got rid of him as fast as he could, eating a huge contract. That is a clear indication of what the Broncos thought of him. (to the Broncos credit and perhaps a lesson that Schoen should embrace)
If you were Wilson and the Giants and Pittsburgh offered the same assurances, where would you go? Pretty simple decision in my eyes. Clearly the Steelers are the far better team with a better chance at the playoffs(well maybe not in that division). In which way are the Giants remotely a better choice for Wilson?
You're debating something I am not.
I am guessing what the fan and media reaction will be if a player the Giants met with outplays the incumbent. Not why and how Wilson became a Steeler.
for me it ties into the long term if it's the right regime they will get the jones decisions right and upgrade when they get the right chance. "but they overpaid him blah blah blah" - maybe but the decision to bring him back was pretty universal. instead of tag they rolled the dice to get extra years of control but that's pretty normal compared to what most other teams have done in their situation (seahawks, bucs, etc).
you are in a very combative mood on this topic, which is fine but it's also seemingly impairing you're literacy. you are using the faux quote "but they overpaid him blah blah blah" without taking into the account the words written immediately after it in bold - they literally say "maybe" they did overpay him while clearly spelling out the decision to bring him back separately as the thing im commenting on. so you are arguing a point i wasn't trying to make about his contract and even acknowledged in my very first post on the thread that maybe they did overpay him (I dont think the jury is entirely out on that yet since they are giving him a second year - if he repeats 2022 whether they keep him or not he will probably be a + value contract and tradeable).
C) No matter how many times you say it, there's more to it than a binary choice. The details of the compensation and commitment were materially different. Making a 1/27M commitment to Geno Smith is a materially different action than making a 2/82M to Daniel Jones. And it speaks to the level of confidence and desire they had for the player.
You are what you spend your money on, no?
as for this bolded quote thank you for helping me articulate my point. the YOU and YOUR in this sentence are my entire point ITT. the decision makers decide on the entire roster, and those people are way more important than any individual good or bad decision they make.
so yes 100%, schoen/dabs/fo are 100% what they spend their money on, which is why im rooting for wins. i still have some hope in them. rooting for anyone on their roster to fail, especially the qb, is rooting for them to fail. there is no way to divorce the 2, though you may try.
To be perfectly clear I'd rather they both go if 2022 is the high water mark ceiling for Daboll + Jones.
What will it take for the Giants to move off Jones? We know it's not a top 6 pick with two top twelve prospects available. It's not a torn ACL and the second neck injury. Will a 2025 at lower cash cost do it?
My guess is the only way he's not a Giant in 2025 is a disaster in 2024.
To be perfectly clear I'd rather they both go if 2022 is the high water mark ceiling for Daboll + Jones.
What will it take for the Giants to move off Jones? We know it's not a top 6 pick with two top twelve prospects available. It's not a torn ACL and the second neck injury. Will a 2025 at lower cash cost do it?
My guess is the only way he's not a Giant in 2025 is a disaster in 2024.
that isnt the germane question the thread asks - the question the thread asks is whether to root for bad outcomes or not.
if you want to root for needles to be threaded that's fine, but i think it's much simpler to root for daboll + schoen to succeed by winning as many games as possible to show progress, whatever the "costs". the 2nd best outcome to that is very very distant because it probably rightly brings about some amount of regime change.
as ive mentioned numerous times this offseason in all sorts of contexts - jimmy g winning didnt stop shanahan from trying with lance (and lance didnt stop them from ending up with purdy), alex smith winning didnt stop reid from trying with mahomes, goff didn't stop mcvay from trading for stafford, and now i guess we can add russell wilson didnt stop payton from moving and drafting bo nix and kirk cousins didnt stop atlanta from drafting penix. the coaches that made those decisions will have chapters of their careers defined by them. im rooting for a winning coach and i dont really care how they get there because that's the more important step 1 than any single decision (even QB). stefanski got to the playoffs last year with a 38 year old flacco outplaying his 1/4 bn$ man watson.
So now that we're debating under a common set of facts (the Giants vote of confidence in Jones was 2X your examples), my question: Given the degree of commitment, do the Giants need to lose so they finally move on from Jones?
And if the Giants lose to a degree they finally move on from Jones, is there a chance Daboll is still the coach?
I want the Giants to move on from Jones. I want them to keep Daboll, but if it requires losing both to achieve the former, I am OK with that.
Shanahan is an interesting example. Garoppolo was on year 4 with SF, and 3 years into his extension when they drafted Lance. But SF was 6-10 that year and Garoppolo was also coming off his 2 double digits games missed year in the last 3 seasons.
Does Daboll have the cache to lose double digit games, keep his job, and then move 3 first round picks to replace Jones. That would be awesome outcome.
To be perfectly clear I'd rather they both go if 2022 is the high water mark ceiling for Daboll + Jones.
What will it take for the Giants to move off Jones? We know it's not a top 6 pick with two top twelve prospects available. It's not a torn ACL and the second neck injury. Will a 2025 at lower cash cost do it?
My guess is the only way he's not a Giant in 2025 is a disaster in 2024.
The needle can be threaded if we start the year with Jones at QB, he struggles leading to his benching in favor of Lock or DeVito, and then Lock or DeVito look like legit NFL QB's leading offense to make a big turnaround
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The dog shit Wilson was 7-8 3070/26/8 last year and available for the veteran minimum.
Whether you believe he should or shouldn't have been given a strong indication he could be the starter, if the Giants have a dog at QB and Wilson shines, this will be a hotly debated topic.
Yes, he was so good, Payton benched him and got rid of him as fast as he could, eating a huge contract. That is a clear indication of what the Broncos thought of him. (to the Broncos credit and perhaps a lesson that Schoen should embrace)
If you were Wilson and the Giants and Pittsburgh offered the same assurances, where would you go? Pretty simple decision in my eyes. Clearly the Steelers are the far better team with a better chance at the playoffs(well maybe not in that division). In which way are the Giants remotely a better choice for Wilson?
You're debating something I am not.
I am guessing what the fan and media reaction will be if a player the Giants met with outplays the incumbent. Not why and how Wilson became a Steeler.
Except that why he signed with the Steelers is absolutely relevant.
Very few will bring up Wilson and it will irrelevant if they do. He was never a viable signing as he had a choice to go where he wanted to go.
People will likely whine about McCarthy, yes, because the Giants could have drafted him if they wanted him.
Except that why he signed with the Steelers is absolutely relevant.
Very few will bring up Wilson and it will irrelevant if they do. He was never a viable signing as he had a choice to go where he wanted to go.
People will likely whine about McCarthy, yes, because the Giants could have drafted him if they wanted him.
Thankfully for us, I have an obnoxiously good memory. I'll be happy to revisit this if a Wilson led Steelers team smokes the Giants.
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I am guessing what the fan and media reaction will be if a player the Giants met with outplays the incumbent. Not why and how Wilson became a Steeler.
Except that why he signed with the Steelers is absolutely relevant.
Very few will bring up Wilson and it will irrelevant if they do. He was never a viable signing as he had a choice to go where he wanted to go.
People will likely whine about McCarthy, yes, because the Giants could have drafted him if they wanted him.
Thankfully for us, I have an obnoxiously good memory. I'll be happy to revisit this if a Wilson led Steelers team smokes the Giants.
Well, we know there will be at least 5 or 6 from BBI!
Help me understand this let the season play out thing. Are you afraid I'm doing something that prevents the season from playing out? Like do you think I'm going to stadiums and intervening in the games? Or maybe you think I have super natural powers to interfere with my message board posts?
The season thing is you know when a team plays its 17-game season and hopefully maybe more and along the way they constantly re-evaluate where they're at and then at the end re-evaluate the whole shootin' match. Its not complicated.
I'm sorry Christian but saying "I have no problem acknowledging I would rather the team go 3-14 than 7-10" is just such a loser's mentality!
I understand folks here are frustrated; I mean its been what 18 games since the Giants last won a playoff game, but this is an improving football team that barring some unforeseen disaster isn't going 3-14. Heck, they had just about everything go wrong that could go wrong last year and still won 6 games and probably should have won 2-3 more.
Once the games start, I'll be rooting for Jones every second of every game. But between the games, I admit I have no confidence in him and hope he gets benched.
The season thing is you know when a team plays its 17-game season and hopefully maybe more and along the way they constantly re-evaluate where they're at and then at the end re-evaluate the whole shootin' match. Its not complicated.
But you get I what I feel has no bearing on that, right? Whether I "let it play out" or not doesn't change anything.
I think what you're really trying to say is you don't want to discuss this topic. Or maybe more weirdly you don't want me to discuss it?
So now that we're debating under a common set of facts (the Giants vote of confidence in Jones was 2X your examples), my question: Given the degree of commitment, do the Giants need to lose so they finally move on from Jones?
And if the Giants lose to a degree they finally move on from Jones, is there a chance Daboll is still the coach?
I want the Giants to move on from Jones. I want them to keep Daboll, but if it requires losing both to achieve the former, I am OK with that.
Shanahan is an interesting example. Garoppolo was on year 4 with SF, and 3 years into his extension when they drafted Lance. But SF was 6-10 that year and Garoppolo was also coming off his 2 double digits games missed year in the last 3 seasons.
Does Daboll have the cache to lose double digit games, keep his job, and then move 3 first round picks to replace Jones. That would be awesome outcome.
i didnt need to accept anything that wasnt in my original post - we were always under the same common facts, the ones you for some reason continue to harp on are irrelevant to my total disagreement with the bold.
if the giants have to move on from daboll and restart another new coaching staff with 2 more new systems that is the worst case outcome of this year. full stop. even if they end up hiring belichek or vrabel and those guys succeed it's still a waste of a year, and perhaps a waste of the #6 pick where they could have taken JJM or Penix or Nix that could have allowed them to succeed 1 year faster (or a lot more depending on however good the QB they'd move on to is).
for all of our sakes we better hope Daboll is the guy because irrelevant of whatever happens at QB if he isnt there is going to be a lot of breakage and another new regime is going back to start. shanahan was 29-20 in the 3 seasons prior to drafting lance, including 2 playoffs (and 1 SB appearance). even with the longer season the 14 wins necessary to get to 29 is obviously a stretch but i am rooting for daboll to get as close to that position as possible.
But you get I what I feel has no bearing on that, right? Whether I "let it play out" or not doesn't change anything.
I think what you're really trying to say is you don't want to discuss this topic. Or maybe more weirdly you don't want me to discuss it?
I was actually going to mention it myself that you guys do realize that whatever you root for has no bearing on the outcome of games or the season! I myself during the last season paced around for 3 hours every Sunday but losses didn't hurt as much because I could tell myself that we're closer to a high pick. And I am pretty sure if the Giants had been in position to draft a Caleb Williams during the last 2-3 weeks I probably would have been more than happy with losses.
All that said maybe I have become a little jaded with all the Daniel Jones talk. Personally I am tired of talking about Jones and want to talk about the Giants going forward instead. How are we going to win games this fall. There will be plenty of time to talk about what to do next when the season is over.
I like Daboll, but if his operating long term thesis is to build upon the current version of Daniel Jones, the sooner he's gone the quicker they can invest in a serious staff and quarterback. I don't care about waste looking backwards, only potential waste looking forwards.
Please refer to this handy visual on how to start new discussions you're interested in having.
Oh I give you my word, if when perusing threads and you were the creator, I'd happily skip.
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Help me understand this let the season play out thing.
The season thing is you know when a team plays its 17-game season and hopefully maybe more and along the way they constantly re-evaluate where they're at and then at the end re-evaluate the whole shootin' match. Its not complicated.
But you get I what I feel has no bearing on that, right? Whether I "let it play out" or not doesn't change anything.
I think what you're really trying to say is you don't want to discuss this topic. Or maybe more weirdly you don't want me to discuss it?
"Let it play out" has been used to try and stifle discussion since gettleman was hired.
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In comment 16520464 Snorkels said:
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Help me understand this let the season play out thing.
The season thing is you know when a team plays its 17-game season and hopefully maybe more and along the way they constantly re-evaluate where they're at and then at the end re-evaluate the whole shootin' match. Its not complicated.
But you get I what I feel has no bearing on that, right? Whether I "let it play out" or not doesn't change anything.
I think what you're really trying to say is you don't want to discuss this topic. Or maybe more weirdly you don't want me to discuss it?
"Let it play out" has been used to try and stifle discussion since gettleman was hired.
As someone who subscribes to the 'let it play out' philosophy, I think some of use it when we don't like the answers given on some topics. It really should not be used that way or as a way to try to shut down reasonable conversation. I do think it is good to apply it to those who's words indicate they know how the future will unfold.
Oh I think this particular instance of playing it out is of the shut it down variety. When a post is bookended by calling the thread nonsense and give it a rest, I'm pretty sure I get it.
I'm pretty careful to qualify my observations as guesses when they are, and facts when I believe them to be. I find the need to participate in discussions one doesn't want to participate in very strange.
Am I maybe the least pleasant poster to converse with on BBI? Probably. If when meeting one day in person Eric on Li kicks me directly in the shin before shaking my hand, I'll deserve it.
My general unlikable demeanor is even more a reason to pass by threads I start.
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As someone who subscribes to the 'let it play out' philosophy, I think some of use it when we don't like the answers given on some topics. It really should not be used that way or as a way to try to shut down reasonable conversation. I do think it is good to apply it to those who's words indicate they know how the future will unfold.
Oh I think this particular instance of playing it out is of the shut it down variety. When a post is bookended by calling the thread nonsense and give it a rest, I'm pretty sure I get it.
I'm pretty careful to qualify my observations as guesses when they are, and facts when I believe them to be. I find the need to participate in discussions one doesn't want to participate in very strange.
Am I maybe the least pleasant poster to converse with on BBI? Probably. If when meeting one day in person Eric on Li kicks me directly in the shin before shaking my hand, I'll deserve it.
My general unlikable demeanor is even more a reason to pass by threads I start.
Regarding the bolded text. I am guilty of this, but it is not because I don't want to discuss the topic, I actually do. I just don't want to see what others have to say sometimes, especially if it creates some doubt about my own opinions. I also sometimes participate in threads that I don't particularly care for because a part of me likes to fight with others and call them out (I am a hypocrite unfortunately).
I honestly am not sure if you are serious at all about you being one of the most unlikable posters to converse with. I certainly don't see it that way and I doubt most see it that way (including some of your rather bitter rivals).
I usually read most of what you and Eric have to say. I rarely have the urge to call either of you out because I think that typically you both put effort into your thoughts and opinions. Although, if you ever want to see if I am lurking, you can post about Eli being a phone and I am sure I'll be there quickly to present a snarky comment that I'll apologize for later. :)
Nobody is rooting for losses. They're rooting for the product of losses, whether it's organizational change, the perception of a higher draft pick as a sign of hope, or that the organization itself learns from mistakes.
The Giants were *arrogantly stubborn* for all four years of Dave Gettleman, you had mouthpieces for the franchise tongue-lashing the fans as know-nothings for years.
I think my view is a pretty common one, but maybe just not as directly put. I'm afraid more mediocrity from Jones results in another year of Jones. And I'd rather they move on, with no excuses to run him back again.
I think my view is a pretty common one, but maybe just not as directly put. I'm afraid more mediocrity from Jones results in another year of Jones. And I'd rather they move on, with no excuses to run him back again.
Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Here is my problem with your opinion. Its worthless! Of absolutely no discernible value. I guess because its sports which we all sort of played we think we know something about it but in reality we don't no diddly-squat. And people who have spent their whole lives in the business and whose jobs and careers are on the line with their decision have decided that for now Jones is their best option of several options none of which come with anything close to a guarantee. I just feel its the height of arrogance to spout off on a subject that one in truth knows almost nothing about and then get uppity when they get called out.
If the Giants pull off an Alex Smith/Patrick Mahomes maneuver I'll be thrilled, and be delighted to be wrong. And by that I mean build a winner, trade up to draft a replacement, and recoup a pick (not draft arguably a top 5 quarterback of all time).
If the Giants pull off an Alex Smith/Patrick Mahomes maneuver I'll be thrilled, and be delighted to be wrong. And by that I mean build a winner, trade up to draft a replacement, and recoup a pick (not draft arguably a top 5 quarterback of all time).
the chiefs model is dynasty so id call that unlikely/unrealistic (agree, would obviously be thrilled with it).
the eagles with wentz/hurts may be more realistic. or niners with jimmyg/lance. those were both teams that at the time were not dynasties or coached by HOFers.
the more daboll gets out of jones the better though. value is value.
The players and coaches hopefully all feel the same way. It is also not easy to find people like this by watching film. It is what separates the great players from the talented who have no heart or desire.
While fans are rooting for losses to get a better draft pick, you have an entire organization doing everything they can to win on Sunday.
Players and coaches are putting their futures on film. There is no way they are tanking for any reason.
As a fan, you have to want the team to win as many games as possible regardless of what that would mean for the draft. Franchise QBs can be found outside of the top 10 if you know how to evaluate talent.
For all we know, Nabers could be a hall of famer one day.
What if the front office can't evaluate talent? Does anything change if they are just stuck in neutral winning 6-8 games a year because they will buy as much talent as the cap allows even though they're not good enough at other things?
WTF does a fan rooting for wins have to do with determining the outcome? I don't know if what you posted is what you meant but if you did, that is a weird reply.
A dream outcome is Jones recoups nominal value in 2024, they move up in 2025 to draft his replacement, and trade him at some point after.
But my guess is if he recoups value, that will signal to the Giants they were right in March of 2023. And they will expend no resources to replace him.
At the risk of desecrating the horse's corpse, I interpret every action they've taken as a vote of confidence in him.
A dream outcome is Jones recoups nominal value in 2024, they move up in 2025 to draft his replacement, and trade him at some point after.
But my guess is if he recoups value, that will signal to the Giants they were right in March of 2023. And they will expend no resources to replace him.
At the risk of desecrating the horse's corpse, I interpret every action they've taken as a vote of confidence in him.
If they liked Jones so much as you stated…then they wouldn’t have tried to trade up for Maye….if you are happy with your QB…then you don’t spend the time and resources they did this off season on every QB except Nix
A dream outcome is Jones recoups nominal value in 2024, they move up in 2025 to draft his replacement, and trade him at some point after.
But my guess is if he recoups value, that will signal to the Giants they were right in March of 2023. And they will expend no resources to replace him.
At the risk of desecrating the horse's corpse, I interpret every action they've taken as a vote of confidence in him.
or just resignation.....I honestly just do not know what they think. Perhaps Sy'56 was right and the whole Maye thing was a ruse to try and get Harrison?
BTW, I still think Maye is not what everyone thinks - not nearly as good. He might be Jones with a better arm.
They chose to go after Maye….did they not?
Takes two to tango on a trade
If you are happy with your QB you don’t try to trade up
If you are happy with your QB then you don’t spend the time and resources they did….did that not happen?
The QB they had a conviction on…they went after
It’s bizarre that you can’t see that their actions illustrate that they want an upgrade
If Jones has roughly the same season he had in 2022 again, and taking into consideration his cash cost goes down next year, do you believe they most likely:
A. Keep him
B. Get rid of him
If Jones has roughly the same season he had in 2022 again, and taking into consideration his cash cost goes down next year, do you believe they most likely:
A. Keep him
B. Get rid of him
If he does as well(or likely better passing) than 2022, they do keep him for 2025, if he is mostly healthy in 2024.
Here is my issue with 2022 and Jones. He will not be running like 2022. He cannot with that knee and I suspect Daboll will not call those RPOs. So how do you compare him with 2022? He will necessarily need to be better at throwing the ball to get near 2022 total numbers which are exceedingly boring.
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They investigated the available options and chose not to pursue them. That itself is a vote of confidence.
They chose to go after Maye….did they not?
Takes two to tango on a trade
If you are happy with your QB you don’t try to trade up
If you are happy with your QB then you don’t spend the time and resources they did….did that not happen?
The QB they had a conviction on…they went after
It’s bizarre that you can’t see that their actions illustrate that they want an upgrade
And yet they still have him as QB1.
They chose their QB and it's Daniel Jones.
If he does as well(or likely better passing) than 2022, they do keep him for 2025, if he is mostly healthy in 2024.
Here is my issue with 2022 and Jones. He will not be running like 2022. He cannot with that knee and I suspect Daboll will not call those RPOs. So how do you compare him with 2022? He will necessarily need to be better at throwing the ball to get near 2022 total numbers which are exceedingly boring.
Yeah, this is where I'm at. If he replicates his 2022 form (which is being just inside the top 15 of QBs), it will likely be done by throwing the ball better. I doubt it will be through running due to both the ACL and the reality that his running also wasn't there for 2023 because teams schemed for it (recall both the niners and seahawks blowing up plays by crashing right into him off of bootleg fakes).
Which leads me to my next point: if he plays above-average by throwing the ball, it means the Giants (gasp) were actually right about him, we're likely going to be watching entertaining football, and Schoen/Daboll will have gotten two seasons of him playing effectively. If they finish with 8 or 9 wins with one of the youngest rosters in the league, it means the arrow is pointing up with Schoen's core and Jones will actually be more affordable in 2025. While I wouldn't love it, they would have a very logical case for playing it out in 2025.
It's only Christian's 7-10, Jones playing mediocre scenario which is the nightmare, because (as he's speculated) I could see the Giants talking themselves into Jones again if even plays in the 15-20 range of QBs. I just see this scenario as being too unlikely, because if the team is playing at a 7-10 pace, I think Jones won't survive it due to fan and media pressure.
It's only Christian's 7-10, Jones playing mediocre scenario which is the nightmare, because (as he's speculated) I could see the Giants talking themselves into Jones again if even plays in the 15-20 range of QBs. I just see this scenario as being too unlikely, because if the team is playing at a 7-10 pace, I think Jones won't survive it due to fan and media pressure.
And to clarify this point, a 7-10 pace implies - based on the schedule - that the Giants are probably sitting at 3-6 at some point. I know we can never understimate the Giants' penchant for blaming their incompetence on ungrateful fans, but how are they going to get through another bad start like that without the anger being overwhelming?
Are Schoen and Mara actually going to talk about progress at their end-of-season presser for finishing 7-10? They probably would, but I bet someone doesn't survive that road to 7-10.
It's only Christian's 7-10, Jones playing mediocre scenario which is the nightmare, because (as he's speculated) I could see the Giants talking themselves into Jones again if even plays in the 15-20 range of QBs. I just see this scenario as being too unlikely, because if the team is playing at a 7-10 pace, I think Jones won't survive it due to fan and media pressure.
We are playing the "if" game.
IMHO, if he not passing well enough, then after giving him a better oline and some pretty damn good WRs, then they solved their own question.
I realize I am going out on a limb in predicting the line will be vastly better this year (possibly being middle rung), but unless the line is at least that level, they will absolutely be unwatchable.
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In comment 16520923 christian said:
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They investigated the available options and chose not to pursue them. That itself is a vote of confidence.
They chose to go after Maye….did they not?
Takes two to tango on a trade
If you are happy with your QB you don’t try to trade up
If you are happy with your QB then you don’t spend the time and resources they did….did that not happen?
The QB they had a conviction on…they went after
It’s bizarre that you can’t see that their actions illustrate that they want an upgrade
And yet they still have him as QB1.
They chose their QB and it's Daniel Jones.
So….they clearly think the position needs an upgrade
They just weren’t able to get the guy they wanted
If Jones has roughly the same season he had in 2022 again, and taking into consideration his cash cost goes down next year, do you believe they most likely:
A. Keep him
B. Get rid of him
I have no idea….but again….their actions clearly indicate they need an upgrade
Do you think they went through this whole song and dance for shits and giggles?
A team doesn’t try to trade up for the 3rd pick in the draft for a QB if they are happy with their QB situation
Geez….let’s use some common sense here
Over the past 15 months the Giants have picked more Jones at a number of junctures.
- With the option to guarantee him 1/32M, they guaranteed him 2/82M
- With the option to retain a more accomplished Taylor, they let him go and chose the cheaper less established Lock
- With the option to draft 3 quarterbacks the league voted were top 12 prospects, they chose a WR
The only topic left up for debate is what they'll do next. As discussed endlessly the ACL/neck injuries weren't disqualifying, the availability of a bridge like Minshew was seemingly not pursued, the availability of a bridge like Wilson was seemingly not seriously courted, and the 3 aforementioned prospects not deemed good enough.
I think many believe investment in a player is binary, love him or waiting to replace him.
Jones breaks that construct, they like and appear to need to be blown away to replace him.
Over the past 15 months the Giants have picked more Jones at a number of junctures.
- With the option to guarantee him 1/32M, they guaranteed him 2/82M
- With the option to retain a more accomplished Taylor, they let him go and chose the cheaper less established Lock
- With the option to draft 3 quarterbacks the league voted were top 12 prospects, they chose a WR
The only topic left up for debate is what they'll do next. As discussed endlessly the ACL/neck injuries weren't disqualifying, the availability of a bridge like Minshew was seemingly not pursued, the availability of a bridge like Wilson was seemingly not seriously courted, and the 3 aforementioned prospects not deemed good enough.
I think many believe investment in a player is binary, love him or waiting to replace him.
Jones breaks that construct, they like and appear to need to be blown away to replace him.
What free agent options?
Kirk Cousins
Yes….they need to have a conviction on a QB
They had one…NE wouldn’t make the trade
If you are happy with your QB…then you don’t try to make a trade to replace him
Yes, on paper TT is a better QB. But what good does it do to re-sign a guy that more injured than the starter?
I admit to not knowing Lock much. But if the backup gets injured every time he steps on the field what good is he?
In 2020 when Lock got his chance he had a 57.3% completion rate, a 68.9% on target rate, and a 22,9% off target rate. All of those were worst among starters in the NFL.
You're going to love Drew Lock.
Over the past 15 months the Giants have picked more Jones at a number of junctures.
- With the option to guarantee him 1/32M, they guaranteed him 2/82M
- With the option to retain a more accomplished Taylor, they let him go and chose the cheaper less established Lock
- With the option to draft 3 quarterbacks the league voted were top 12 prospects, they chose a WR
The only topic left up for debate is what they'll do next. As discussed endlessly the ACL/neck injuries weren't disqualifying, the availability of a bridge like Minshew was seemingly not pursued, the availability of a bridge like Wilson was seemingly not seriously courted, and the 3 aforementioned prospects not deemed good enough.
I think many believe investment in a player is binary, love him or waiting to replace him.
Jones breaks that construct, they like and appear to need to be blown away to replace him.
What free agent options?
Kirk Cousins
Yes….they need to have a conviction on a QB
They had one…NE wouldn’t make the trade
If you are happy with your QB…then you don’t try to make a trade to replace him
If Daniel Jones repeats 2022 do you think they'll be happy with him?
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In comment 16520930 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16520923 christian said:
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They investigated the available options and chose not to pursue them. That itself is a vote of confidence.
They chose to go after Maye….did they not?
Takes two to tango on a trade
If you are happy with your QB you don’t try to trade up
If you are happy with your QB then you don’t spend the time and resources they did….did that not happen?
The QB they had a conviction on…they went after
It’s bizarre that you can’t see that their actions illustrate that they want an upgrade
And yet they still have him as QB1.
They chose their QB and it's Daniel Jones.
So….they clearly think the position needs an upgrade
They just weren’t able to get the guy they wanted
If they truly wanted to move on from Jones they would have done more than replace TT with Lock.
If DJ looks like the 2023 version, the only way I don't see BD being fired is by quickly pivoting to Lock. Otherwise yes, all that work they did this off-season will have been useless because BD (and maybe JS) get fired without drafting a QB.
My reaction to drafting Nabers was, and remains, we just flushed the 2024, 25, and maybe even 26 seasons down the drain.
In 2020 when Lock got his chance he had a 57.3% completion rate, a 68.9% on target rate, and a 22,9% off target rate. All of those were worst among starters in the NFL.
You're going to love Drew Lock.
Lovely....but I cannot get past TT's injuries. I liked him on the field despite bouncing balls.
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In comment 16521004 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16520930 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16520923 christian said:
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They investigated the available options and chose not to pursue them. That itself is a vote of confidence.
They chose to go after Maye….did they not?
Takes two to tango on a trade
If you are happy with your QB you don’t try to trade up
If you are happy with your QB then you don’t spend the time and resources they did….did that not happen?
The QB they had a conviction on…they went after
It’s bizarre that you can’t see that their actions illustrate that they want an upgrade
And yet they still have him as QB1.
They chose their QB and it's Daniel Jones.
So….they clearly think the position needs an upgrade
They just weren’t able to get the guy they wanted
If they truly wanted to move on from Jones they would have done more than replace TT with Lock.
If DJ looks like the 2023 version, the only way I don't see BD being fired is by quickly pivoting to Lock. Otherwise yes, all that work they did this off-season will have been useless because BD (and maybe JS) get fired without drafting a QB.
My reaction to drafting Nabers was, and remains, we just flushed the 2024, 25, and maybe even 26 seasons down the drain.
Huh?
So you are saying that they should have signed a free agent QB to replace Jones? Who would that be?…Cousins?
They chose the draft route (as they should)
They had their guy but you can’t force a team to trade with you
If they are so married to Jones…then you don’t try to trade up to number 3 to replace him
Did that not happen?
You believe you have better understanding of the QB than the team.
While possible, I consider this very unlikely.
I think you are trying to build an argument that you can still be a reasonable fan with this kind of take.
You can’t, It makes you a tool and you admit it. The lack of self awareness is staggering here.
If you can find a way in your mind to justifying being happy in a season that only wins 3 games because you think you know more than the people hired to run the team.
I only have one word for that.
That’s an asshole.
- If the Giants had a very low level of trust in Jones they could have cut him and signed a bridge starter like Minshew or Wilson.
- They could have signed a more accomplished back up like Taylor, Brisset, or Mariota.
- If they had a very low level of confidence in him, they could have taken one of the other three prospects the league voted were top 12 prospects.
Daboll and Schoen operate every day in defense of their job. They voted among their options he gave them the best chance to succeed, and they voted to not sign a serious threat to back him up.
They'll go through that same process next offseason. The only question unanswered is what they do next. They already gave him the vote of confidence this year.
You believe you have better understanding of the QB than the team.
While possible, I consider this very unlikely.
I think you are trying to build an argument that you can still be a reasonable fan with this kind of take.
You can’t, It makes you a tool and you admit it. The lack of self awareness is staggering here.
If you can find a way in your mind to justifying being happy in a season that only wins 3 games because you think you know more than the people hired to run the team.
I only have one word for that.
That’s an asshole.
How more reminders do you need to please stay away from threads I start? Your behavior is bordering on psychotic. In the 25 years I've participated in this community, I've never once flagged behavior to Eric. If you keep this up, I regrettably will have to.
In 2020 when Lock got his chance he had a 57.3% completion rate, a 68.9% on target rate, and a 22,9% off target rate. All of those were worst among starters in the NFL.
You're going to love Drew Lock.
I think people's confidence in Schoen/Daboll is way too high given their decisions at QB since joining are Taylor (fine), giving Jones a massive contract, and signing Drew Lock.
You only need to get the position right once, fortunately.
How more reminders do you need to please stay away from threads I start? Your behavior is bordering on psychotic. In the 25 years I've participated in this community, I've never once flagged behavior to Eric. If you keep this up, I regrettably will have to.
I learned a long time ago that we don't all need to open every thread.
But, to be fair, we also don't need to read every response.
In 2020 when Lock got his chance he had a 57.3% completion rate, a 68.9% on target rate, and a 22,9% off target rate. All of those were worst among starters in the NFL.
You're going to love Drew Lock.
I think people's confidence in Schoen/Daboll is way too high given their decisions at QB since joining are Taylor (fine), giving Jones a massive contract, and signing Drew Lock.
You only need to get the position right once, fortunately.
I largely agree.
I think a decent way to look at is: the last times Jones poked his head above water they gave him 2/82M.
What will he have to do to get another 1/30M? What we have to do to earn another 2/78M?
yeah, thought that this morning - the Every Ready Bunny of BBI!
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You do not, because fans don't control anything. All we can do is observe.
WTF does a fan rooting for wins have to do with determining the outcome? I don't know if what you posted is what you meant but if you did, that is a weird reply.
Look at it a different way.
You're a fan of a team that has had *two* winning seasons in 10 years.
As a fan, the *only* power you have is your own voice and your wallet.
Does any message get sent to the people running the place if all you do is sit and clap and keep it positive and root root root for the home team? I'm not sure that fans from the 70s would say yes. So no, I don't think everyone needs to root for every win possible. The only thing this franchise has ever been motivated to action by is public embarrassment .
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In comment 16521024 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16521004 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16520930 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16520923 christian said:
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They investigated the available options and chose not to pursue them. That itself is a vote of confidence.
They chose to go after Maye….did they not?
Takes two to tango on a trade
If you are happy with your QB you don’t try to trade up
If you are happy with your QB then you don’t spend the time and resources they did….did that not happen?
The QB they had a conviction on…they went after
It’s bizarre that you can’t see that their actions illustrate that they want an upgrade
And yet they still have him as QB1.
They chose their QB and it's Daniel Jones.
So….they clearly think the position needs an upgrade
They just weren’t able to get the guy they wanted
If they truly wanted to move on from Jones they would have done more than replace TT with Lock.
If DJ looks like the 2023 version, the only way I don't see BD being fired is by quickly pivoting to Lock. Otherwise yes, all that work they did this off-season will have been useless because BD (and maybe JS) get fired without drafting a QB.
My reaction to drafting Nabers was, and remains, we just flushed the 2024, 25, and maybe even 26 seasons down the drain.
Huh?
So you are saying that they should have signed a free agent QB to replace Jones? Who would that be?…Cousins?
They chose the draft route (as they should)
They had their guy but you can’t force a team to trade with you
If they are so married to Jones…then you don’t try to trade up to number 3 to replace him
Did that not happen?
I'm saying love him or try to replace him is a distinction with no difference since he's still QB1. If their only plan was a low chance play at trading with a team in need of a QB, that should tell you Jones is their QB. If they truly wanted him gone they'd have had multiple options to replace him, not just Maye or bust
I suppose as long as you're enjoying yourselves...
I'm saying love him or try to replace him is a distinction with no difference since he's still QB1. If their only plan was a low chance play at trading with a team in need of a QB, that should tell you Jones is their QB. If they truly wanted him gone they'd have had multiple options to replace him, not just Maye or bust
Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.
As much as I am tired of Jones, I am also not a throw the baby out with the bath water and just grab some unknown entity. That frankly is a stupid position. The minute you panic and start grabbing at random QBs, you are finished.
I am sure one day soon they will come across a guy that will supplant Jones(the sooner the better). But a random grab at some 5th round QB like Milton is foolhardy no matter what some blowhard says.
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I'm saying love him or try to replace him is a distinction with no difference since he's still QB1. If their only plan was a low chance play at trading with a team in need of a QB, that should tell you Jones is their QB. If they truly wanted him gone they'd have had multiple options to replace him, not just Maye or bust
Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.
As much as I am tired of Jones, I am also not a throw the baby out with the bath water and just grab some unknown entity. That frankly is a stupid position. The minute you panic and start grabbing at random QBs, you are finished.
I am sure one day soon they will come across a guy that will supplant Jones(the sooner the better). But a random grab at some 5th round QB like Milton is foolhardy no matter what some blowhard says.
Hard disagree. I've seen this reasoning used to justify keeping bad players and coaches because the replacement could be worse. Well they could also be better, in fact odds are the devil you don't know will vastly outperform the one you do.
I also don't think JS taking a QB would have been in a panic or a random grab.
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Last year Taylor had a 64.4% completion rate, a 80.7% on target rate, and a 14.5% off target rate.
In 2020 when Lock got his chance he had a 57.3% completion rate, a 68.9% on target rate, and a 22,9% off target rate. All of those were worst among starters in the NFL.
You're going to love Drew Lock.
I think people's confidence in Schoen/Daboll is way too high given their decisions at QB since joining are Taylor (fine), giving Jones a massive contract, and signing Drew Lock.
You only need to get the position right once, fortunately.
this may be wish casting, but last year when tyrod got hurt and devito was thrust into playing we all knew the season was over but in a few places i made comments along the lines of "it would be great to see daboll surprise us and actually field a competitive team the same way minnesota did with dobbs" - the fact that he did that to me is one of the more impressive things he's done here. last year very easily could have turned fromm-y at the end.
getting a career year out of jones is 1 data point, winning games against playoff teams with each of tyrod and devito are 2 more that start to form a trend of at least competence.
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In comment 16521059 christian said:
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Last year Taylor had a 64.4% completion rate, a 80.7% on target rate, and a 14.5% off target rate.
In 2020 when Lock got his chance he had a 57.3% completion rate, a 68.9% on target rate, and a 22,9% off target rate. All of those were worst among starters in the NFL.
You're going to love Drew Lock.
I think people's confidence in Schoen/Daboll is way too high given their decisions at QB since joining are Taylor (fine), giving Jones a massive contract, and signing Drew Lock.
You only need to get the position right once, fortunately.
this may be wish casting, but last year when tyrod got hurt and devito was thrust into playing we all knew the season was over but in a few places i made comments along the lines of "it would be great to see daboll surprise us and actually field a competitive team the same way minnesota did with dobbs" - the fact that he did that to me is one of the more impressive things he's done here. last year very easily could have turned fromm-y at the end.
getting a career year out of jones is 1 data point, winning games against playoff teams with each of tyrod and devito are 2 more that start to form a trend of at least competence.
This is a really good point. I'm a big fan of Daboll and am a little negative on Schoen. Daboll has done great work with talent I think is really mediocre.
Are player selection and player development separate skills, though? Meaning, can Daboll be great at maximizing a given player but not so good at finding the guy with the best celing? I really don't know.
This is a really good point. I'm a big fan of Daboll and am a little negative on Schoen. Daboll has done great work with talent I think is really mediocre.
Are player selection and player development separate skills, though? Meaning, can Daboll be great at maximizing a given player but not so good at finding the guy with the best celing? I really don't know.
thomas dimitroff overlapped with daboll in NE and said anyone who came from NE was very experienced with the player evaluation side of things because of how they operated (said daboll was also known to have a good eye there).
selection and development are interconnected imo, what i think we've seen over time is that picking good players vs super star impact types is kind of luck of the draw. belichek was generally a good drafter and always had more picks than anyone, but he didnt draft a lot of stars. buffalo also hasnt drafted very many stars though they have drafted a lot of good players. so far schoen's track record has been like that.
thats in part why im generally comfortable with trades for proven stars like burns/waller. though obviously you'd hope to get those choices right unlike waller (thats a move i blame on schoen not getting good intel).
One of my favorite examples is the rumor KC wanted to trade up for Paxton Lynch the year before trading up for Mahomes. The failure to get Lynch helped catapult Reid into one of the GOATs. But maybe Lynch would have been a little better under Reid.
Conversely, the Bills traded that Mahomes pick to the Chiefs--only to wisely trade up for Allen a year later.
One of my favorite examples is the rumor KC wanted to trade up for Paxton Lynch the year before trading up for Mahomes. The failure to get Lynch helped catapult Reid into one of the GOATs. But maybe Lynch would have been a little better under Reid.
Conversely, the Bills traded that Mahomes pick to the Chiefs--only to wisely trade up for Allen a year later.
another way to think of it is that a players developmentability (not a real word) is a big part of the scouting process (arguably the biggest).
"good on the board"
"hard worker"
"works like a professional"
"serious about football"
etc.
that was one of belichick's biggest player acquisition strengths.
im ok with schoen's draft record but i think he bought a couple of older lemons in FA with glowinski and waller in offseasons 1/2 where the pro scouting department dropped the ball since those were the 2 big adds of those offseasons.
i also thought letting love go was an obvious mistake and the barkley negotiation was mishandled.
ill be thrilled if a few of his draft picks make me eat those words, but that remains to be seen.
Put the Jones contract aside, I didn't think the handling of Barkley made any sense. We succeeded in 2022 in large because Barkley and Jones fed off each other on the ground. They should have been on similar timelines. And then they should have dumped Barkley at the deadline. The whole thing was a bit silly to me.
I like the Burns trade but you need guys who are elite and punch above their weight cap wise. Burns is a fine contract, but compared to Garrett, Watt, etc. it's kind of mediocre. Plus, I sort of question whether Burns is really in that top tier. We are competing to win championships, not to be 'good'.
The Giants cap allocation and championship window seems disconnected. I continue to be confused at what the plan is here and how that will lead to sustainable contention. Schoen had a bit of whiplash after the 2022 season, which strikes me as someone who lacks conviction in the quality of the roster. The self scouting seemingly continues to be bad here.
I can be persuaded with Schoen, he's done some good things, done some bad. It's not like Gettleman who I was totally done with by this point in his tenure.
one of the things that i think is most bizarre is how many team captains they've let leave without much effort.
love and feliciano walked after year 1 for very reasonable $ at positions where they could have still used the depth. they bizarrely handle the barkley negotiation.
in year 2 they somehow name waller and adoree jackson team captains. also let mckinney and barkley walk.
seems like they've either had some bad judgement on their chosen veteran leaders or bad judgement on who they've let walk, but it's hard to reconcile that they havent made at least 1 mistake or the other.
my most hopeful read from afar is that they got a little high on their own supply after year 1 and made some mistakes of inexperience that they corrected bc this offseason seemed better. the less hopeful outcome is that it wasnt actually better things wont get better people get fired and the cycle begins anew.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
not to open a pandora's box but im pretty sure the only big difference between gettleman and schoen is daboll and light years better pr savvy.
If the operating expectations at QB are for a non-durable, limited passer, with good wheels, and a placeholder for what's next -- I give you Tyrod Taylor ladies and gentlemen.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
not to open a pandora's box but im pretty sure the only big difference between gettleman and schoen is daboll and light years better pr savvy.
And I'd go as far as giving Gettleman the lead in the drafting department.
If the operating expectations at QB are for a non-durable, limited passer, with good wheels, and a placeholder for what's next -- I give you Tyrod Taylor ladies and gentlemen.
jackson is still a free agent so it's not money that's stopping them. feliciano got almost the minimum last year and was on the market for a long time. they signed ashawn for twice as much after he'd signed. they paid campbell and slayton (non captain) as much as love and waller would have covered barkley. letting those guys was choices more than out of budget.
mckinney got paid but he's the one i think they were most correct to pass on paying. he is now the 12th highest paid DB including corners and i dont think his impact is anywhere near that.
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All fair--I'm super high on Daboll, down on Schoen. But not fatal, as you said.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
not to open a pandora's box but im pretty sure the only big difference between gettleman and schoen is daboll and light years better pr savvy.
And I'd go as far as giving Gettleman the lead in the drafting department.
it's close, gettleman had the 2 big hits with dex/thomas, schoen has had fewer misses.
not huge sample sizes but i think overall both would be considered average. schoen needs some year 3+ guys to breakout like dex/thomas, if they do then his track record will look better quickly.
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All fair--I'm super high on Daboll, down on Schoen. But not fatal, as you said.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
not to open a pandora's box but im pretty sure the only big difference between gettleman and schoen is daboll and light years better pr savvy.
I wouldn't go that far. Gettleman did so much dumb shit: drafting Barkley at 2, Solder, Golladay, Toney, etc.
Just a consistent comedy of errors. I don't think Schoen has had consistent stupidity the way Gettleman did.
In a "if resources weren't as constrained" world, I suspect they keep Slayton and Love, they sign Robinson and Keep Felciano, they acquire Burns and keep McKinney, they sign Singletary and keep Barkley.
I don't have access to all my piggies and fingers at the moment, but I imagine the sum of the guarantees of the players they lost + the guarantees on Taylor in 23 + 24 is south of 82.
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In comment 16522395 BrettNYG10 said:
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All fair--I'm super high on Daboll, down on Schoen. But not fatal, as you said.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
not to open a pandora's box but im pretty sure the only big difference between gettleman and schoen is daboll and light years better pr savvy.
I wouldn't go that far. Gettleman did so much dumb shit: drafting Barkley at 2, Solder, Golladay, Toney, etc.
Just a consistent comedy of errors. I don't think Schoen has had consistent stupidity the way Gettleman did.
again not to start a whole thing bc my intent isnt to endorse gettleman's failed era but golladay and waller by the end wont look so different.
solder was more expensive but at least gave them a decent season or two, unlike glowinski. will hernandez looks like chris snee compared to josh ezeudu.
toney was a disaster -- but the trade down got them the 7th pick that could have been garrett wilson or chris olave or kyle hamilton. instead it was neal, who at this point may end up a bigger miss than ereck flowers forget barkley.
so again not looking to whitewash any of DGs failures, more just looking to level set schoen. he's been better but mostly because of daboll getting better play out of players he inherited like lawrence, jones, love, slayton, thomas. not great personnel decisions he made.
In a "if resources weren't as constrained" world, I suspect they keep Slayton and Love, they sign Robinson and Keep Felciano, they acquire Burns and keep McKinney, they sign Singletary and keep Barkley.
I don't have access to all my piggies and fingers at the moment, but I imagine the sum of the guarantees of the players they lost + the guarantees on Taylor in 23 + 24 is south of 82.
last year keeping love would have cost less or = against the cap than campbell, ashawn, slayton. they chose those 3 players over him.
feliciano played for $2m. any team can afford a 2m player at pretty much any time if they are motivated to keep that player.
last year keeping love would have cost less or = against the cap than campbell, ashawn, slayton. they chose those 3 players over him.
feliciano played for $2m. any team can afford a 2m player at pretty much any time if they are motivated to keep that player.
They prioritized 4 players in 5-6 AAV range more than Love. In a less resources contained environment maybe Love is a 5th. They spent the vet minimum on a backup center maybe they spend +1M.
You spend your money on something. This is definitely a benefit of the doubt exercise.
If it wasn't a resource calculus, the alternative portends much worse.
What would have been better for the Giants, DeVito starts week 18 and reestablishes his confidence and standing with the staff in a loss, or current New York Jet Tyrod Taylor leads the Giants to a win?
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last year keeping love would have cost less or = against the cap than campbell, ashawn, slayton. they chose those 3 players over him.
feliciano played for $2m. any team can afford a 2m player at pretty much any time if they are motivated to keep that player.
They prioritized 4 players in 5-6 AAV range more than Love. In a less resources contained environment maybe Love is a 5th. They spent the vet minimum on a backup center maybe they spend +1M.
You spend your money on something. This is definitely a benefit of the doubt exercise.
If it wasn't a resource calculus, the alternative portends much worse.
my problem with schoen (as articulated above) is that he has made some bad choices. i am not absolving him of poor choices just because there was a very modest budget constraint (or giving him the benefit of doubt that the 5th try would have been the charm).
they werent event negotiating with love after FA opened and as far as i know never made him an offer, this wasnt a situation of his price going beyond their budget. he got less than they'd offered him in november, they changed their mind on him for whatever reason.
my argument isn't entirely love either, they have let a lot of guys THEY named captains walk relatively uncontested. at minimum doesn't that mean their choices of captains weren't so hot?
What's concerning is how few of his own hits Schoen has. Okereke, Thibs, Banks, Pinnock? With good signals from Robinson, Hyatt, and McFadden?
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All fair--I'm super high on Daboll, down on Schoen. But not fatal, as you said.
Gettleman was a wreck, thrashing around with absolutely no cohesive strategy. I don't view Schoen the same way.
not to open a pandora's box but im pretty sure the only big difference between gettleman and schoen is daboll and light years better pr savvy.
A clueless take.
Gettleman was an utter moron, whether he fell ass-backwards into Thomas and Dex or not. He had a ridiculously bad free agency record, nonexistent roster building strategies and poor transaction timing, and his lack of keeping up with NFL trends was as bad as any GM in any sport in the past century.
Schoen may fail and not be able to build a winner, but Gettleman had no chance. None. And it was obvious his first couple of months in the saddle with Solder coming on board and wasting that immensely valued draft slot on a RB. Nonsensical contract negotiation processes with Leonard Williams, several overvalued veteran WRs and sticking us with Daniel Jones only dragged out his idiocy.
If Schoen dies on the vine, it isn’t because his general thought-processes about football every year were flawed. It is predominately because he made an F-graded devision on a C-graded QB that you thought was an A-graded contract.
What's concerning is how few of his own hits Schoen has. Okereke, Thibs, Banks, Pinnock? With good signals from Robinson, Hyatt, and McFadden?
i think the first year it was a vote last year when they named 10 the coaches chose.
id add belinger as a hit. they havent cut any of their draft picks yet so they all have a chance. 14/18 have started at least a game. riley, owens, beavers, gray the 4 that havent.
Giants vote team captains for 2023 season - ( New Window )
he and daboll are both centerstage, thats why im hoping for as many good outcomes for both of them as possible. if any change is necessary after this year it's going to come with a lot more breakage than any single bad contract or bad draft pick.