Papa telling Giants fans to cheer up because Washington fans are envious of our success over the past 25 years is just laughable. The bar is ground level at this point.
I remember when Jones was drafted, he just didn't impress me as a 1st round QB. When he came in and had a great beginning, I was surprised and became convinced that he showed promise.
Then everything fell apart. Some of it was clearly his fault, but most of it was the team's. The team rose out of the ashes
in 2022 but couldn't sustain the momentum.
I wouldn't be surprised if that a positive year is coming, the question is can they keep it up. I honestly don't know, what I do know is that what ever happens the result is not all due to Dan Jones failures or success.
No one, repeat no one can get anything out of this guy
Whats more likely- every single coach we have hired for 5 years has been absolutely terrible or the Giants are forcing these coaches to put a round peg in a square hole?
No matter what system he has played in, who has coached him and who has played with him and at what level he has played it. He simply hasnt done anything but lose games, throw 200 yds or less a game, throw 1 TD per game and 6.8 ypa
1. Notice how other players don't get the same treatment as Jones? Why doesn't Evan Neal get any of the benefit of the doubt? Even Schoen said he needed to play better. Yet Jones gets a list of excuses. It's unfair to the rest of the players on the team.
2. There is no doubt to me once Jones is off the team the same people defending him now will be quick to blame him.
Or is there a need for new NYG voices in the media? There is such a disconnect that I never noticed before
Name the team that the comms people aren't wearing rose colored glasses.
They are not throwing him under the bus, yet. They cannot afford to that before the season.
Their podcast has become a platform for bashing the fans
Is divisive, leads to a bad culture and finger pointing
And its organization wide from owner on down
Joe Schoen said
“it's hard to go in and compete week in and week out if you don't have your best players. One of the guys was telling me the other day, going into the season, if you told me (tight end Darren) Waller, (tackle) Andrew Thomas, Saquon and Daniel would play less than 40 plays together, I wouldn't have been real excited about that, and that's the reality of how it played out.”
Im sure the other 49 guys on the roster feel just great hearing the GM say that.
Papa telling Giants fans to cheer up because Washington fans are envious of our success over the past 25 years is just laughable. The bar is ground level at this point.
This.
They’ve become company men with regards to Jones.
If so, lets muddle through this season and hope for the best. I want by the end of the season to know unequivocally that Jones will never be a winner. The next question are Shoen/Daboll the men to evaluate and draft our next franchise quarterback? That remains to be seen. The angst on BBI will not be going away any time soon.
If we're being honest, we know that there are people (some here) who refused to take part in 2022 because Daniel Jones finally found some level of success. Was it moderate and short-lived success? Yes. But it was success nonetheless.
That said, we're past the Daniel Jones expiration date here. He has proven to be too injury prone and not consistent enough to be the Giants starting QB. For so many reasons I think the Seattle game last year was his last stand. A chance to basically stabilize (and to that point) save the young season and prove at least a little bit you are the right guy for the contract they gave you. It was a complete failure and a good QB wins that game at home against a good but not great Seattle team.
It's the Giants own fault this conversation is still taking place. Schoen was given a "get out of bad QB situation free" card with Jones's injuries providing them cover to move on at the position and all he did this offseason was replace Tyrod Taylor with Drew Lock. Truly mind-boggling.
believe in Jones based on their reported attempts to give up a haul to get Maye. You don’t make a move like that if you think your current QB is a winner. It’s not like Jones is this 12 year vet and they are looking to draft the future guy. Jones only has 5 years in the league so that’s a straight up draft and replace strategy.
IMO, there is a very broad range of outcomes when it comes to Jones
On the negative side, we could easily see the exact same as we saw last year from him. Most specifically, being too skittish to attack down field. If that's what we get, I don't see any way he will remain the starter for long. I don't see how Daboll drafted the most explosive player in the draft and is taking over plan calling duties to have all of that fall on a guy who all he does is check down. Lock is not a great option, but he won't have that issue and we saw this team compete last year when TT was in there attacking vertically. We should have that one way or another this year.
On the positive side, it is possible we get the version of Jones the team was hoping for last year, which is one that can do what he showed in 2022 but taking a step forward with better talent around him. He has the physical ability as I think we saw a bit of in his rookie year and we also saw in training camp last year.
The later is a best case, and although I do think it is a possible outcome, we shouldn't confuse that with the idea that Jones is a long term answer. IN some sense I think people under estimate just how in a funk this team, especially the offense, was early on last year. Yes, that does happen in football --we saw it in Philly last year as an example (we beat them the last time this team was on the field, remember?). But while I do believe that is the case and thus am more open to a different outcome going forward than most are --we learned beyond a doubt that when adversity hits, especially the oline, Jones doesn't have it in him to step up. He curls into a shell.
So while I am far from sharing the view that this 2024 season is lost --contrary, I believe we will likely compete. But in terms of building a contender, we're still missing that most critical piece, which I think is an obvious statement.
If we're being honest, we know that there are people (some here) who refused to take part in 2022 because Daniel Jones finally found some level of success. Was it moderate and short-lived success? Yes. But it was success nonetheless.
That said, we're past the Daniel Jones expiration date here. He has proven to be too injury prone and not consistent enough to be the Giants starting QB. For so many reasons I think the Seattle game last year was his last stand. A chance to basically stabilize (and to that point) save the young season and prove at least a little bit you are the right guy for the contract they gave you. It was a complete failure and a good QB wins that game at home against a good but not great Seattle team.
It's the Giants own fault this conversation is still taking place. Schoen was given a "get out of bad QB situation free" card with Jones's injuries providing them cover to move on at the position and all he did this offseason was replace Tyrod Taylor with Drew Lock. Truly mind-boggling.
Did they not make an attempt to trade up for the player they liked in Maye?
and loves dunking down on NYG fans. Remember, he gets paid to promote the team. He acts offended that the fan base isn’t happy after over a decade of shitty football.
If we're being honest, we know that there are people (some here) who refused to take part in 2022 because Daniel Jones finally found some level of success. Was it moderate and short-lived success? Yes. But it was success nonetheless.
That said, we're past the Daniel Jones expiration date here. He has proven to be too injury prone and not consistent enough to be the Giants starting QB. For so many reasons I think the Seattle game last year was his last stand. A chance to basically stabilize (and to that point) save the young season and prove at least a little bit you are the right guy for the contract they gave you. It was a complete failure and a good QB wins that game at home against a good but not great Seattle team.
It's the Giants own fault this conversation is still taking place. Schoen was given a "get out of bad QB situation free" card with Jones's injuries providing them cover to move on at the position and all he did this offseason was replace Tyrod Taylor with Drew Lock. Truly mind-boggling.
Did they not make an attempt to trade up for the player they liked in Maye?
Takes two to tango in a trade
So I do not think that assertion is fair
Yea, so the plan this offseason was to attempt a trade up with a team that in all likelihood was never moving out of that spot. The only team that was as desperate at the QB position as we still are. A team whose newly hired head coach states at his intro press conference that they were going to take the best player at the most critical position”. Why anyone would think the Pats were seriously going to move out of that spot is beyond me.
I can sit outside the convenience store where lotto tickets are sold claiming that’s my plan to get rich, but that’s not much of a plan, right?
Excellent backup QB and average backup QB. In 2022 he was an excellent backup QB. I think his turnovers were unsustainably low that year, which is not really a shot at him. Even if you play ultra conservatively as he did, you're still going to run into some bad bounces.
The miserable thing for fans is that if he hits anywhere even close to his ceiling - just a decent game manager/backup QB, then the Giants will be enthusiastic about keeping him and paying him huge money.
The guy is brilliant at personal branding and networking. It's given him generational wealth and unprecedented professional opportunities for a QB as bad as he is. Sucks for us though.
For so many reasons I think the Seattle game last year was his last stand. A chance to basically stabilize (and to that point) save the young season and prove at least a little bit you are the right guy for the contract they gave you. It was a complete failure and a good QB wins that game at home against a good but not great Seattle team.
It seems the Seattle game is what most point to as their last straw with Jones. He played poorly. No doubt. A good QB wins that game?
JMS and Bellinger left the game after the first series due to injury. Therefore, the offensive lineup the rest of that game:
Ezuedu
Lemeiuex (sp) Glowinski also played
Bredeson
McKethan
Neal
Breida and Brightwell
WDR, Hyatt, Hodgins
Waller and Cage
Jones played poorly. But if you’re being honest, there’s probably not many QBs lifting that group to victory.
Remember when Dottino ripped fans for criticizing Gettleman?
was dumb on many levels, not the least of which is that it raised expectations to a point that he's not capable of living up to. But, in football the QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Add in that Jones has had an awful OL every year and a really bad receiving corps every year, which made it nearly impossible for him to succeed, and it's clear that his lack of success isn't all on him. He's not a terrible player. He could have a very good year this year. He's not the long-term answer for the NYG at QB, they can and should look for a better QB. But the amount of derision being heaped on him is over the top; and Banks and Papa were right about that.
If we're being honest, we know that there are people (some here) who refused to take part in 2022 because Daniel Jones finally found some level of success. Was it moderate and short-lived success? Yes. But it was success nonetheless.
That said, we're past the Daniel Jones expiration date here. He has proven to be too injury prone and not consistent enough to be the Giants starting QB. For so many reasons I think the Seattle game last year was his last stand. A chance to basically stabilize (and to that point) save the young season and prove at least a little bit you are the right guy for the contract they gave you. It was a complete failure and a good QB wins that game at home against a good but not great Seattle team.
It's the Giants own fault this conversation is still taking place. Schoen was given a "get out of bad QB situation free" card with Jones's injuries providing them cover to move on at the position and all he did this offseason was replace Tyrod Taylor with Drew Lock. Truly mind-boggling.
Did they not make an attempt to trade up for the player they liked in Maye?
Takes two to tango in a trade
So I do not think that assertion is fair
Yea, so the plan this offseason was to attempt a trade up with a team that in all likelihood was never moving out of that spot. The only team that was as desperate at the QB position as we still are. A team whose newly hired head coach states at his intro press conference that they were going to take the best player at the most critical position”. Why anyone would think the Pats were seriously going to move out of that spot is beyond me.
I can sit outside the convenience store where lotto tickets are sold claiming that’s my plan to get rich, but that’s not much of a plan, right?
Huh?
How would they have known when formulating their off season plans that the Pats wanted Maye before the full evaluation period
And…why would they go through the evaluation period of all the QB’s before eventually settling on Maye
Not trying to be disrespectful, but that doesn’t make sense
Nothing matters but.....Jones must stay on field, play better and win!
believe in Jones based on their reported attempts to give up a haul to get Maye. You don’t make a move like that if you think your current QB is a winner. It’s not like Jones is this 12 year vet and they are looking to draft the future guy. Jones only has 5 years in the league so that’s a straight up draft and replace strategy.
People keep saying that but I am not buying it. The Giants were/are comfortable running it back with Jones.
"There's a certain sector of folks that call themselves Giants fans that have made it their life's work to shit on Daniel Jones."
I know this was posted already but clearly Carl must read BBI... LOL
I disagree. There seems to be a huge disconnect between people who think Giant fans hate DJ personally when it the truth is that they hate that he’s the QB because he isn’t that good.
"There's a certain sector of folks that call themselves Giants fans that have made it their life's work to shit on Daniel Jones."
I know this was posted already but clearly Carl must read BBI... LOL
I disagree. There seems to be a huge disconnect between people who think Giant fans hate DJ personally when it the truth is that they hate that he’s the QB because he isn’t that good.
You are describing yourself maybe, SF. Others, I am quite sure feel differently than you. Honestly, I could give a shit the name on the jersey taking snaps from center. I just want the Giants to win. And so I root for Giants players to win, and kick ass. Period. And I have to say at this point? I am rooting for the kid to shove it in everyone's face, I want Shane/Davoli to shove it in everyone's face that shit on the kid all day long, incessantly, in thread after thread, post after post, with this insane conviction that somehow, they know better... and would make all of the best decisions... lol. I can guarantee if that happens there will be certain posters that slink away again quietly... lol
Papa - "Whether you're rooting for or against him - he's going to succeed on his own merit"
Then dives into the laundry list of why he's not successful
Then I like how Banks commented that if you don't support Jones, it's probably because you've lost money gambling. Haha.
These guys just don't get twitter, or the internet in general. The comment section anywhere is a waste land, and best to be ignored, and certainly not engaged
Is divisive, leads to a bad culture and finger pointing
And its organization wide from owner on down
Joe Schoen said
“it's hard to go in and compete week in and week out if you don't have your best players. One of the guys was telling me the other day, going into the season, if you told me (tight end Darren) Waller, (tackle) Andrew Thomas, Saquon and Daniel would play less than 40 plays together, I wouldn't have been real excited about that, and that's the reality of how it played out.”
Im sure the other 49 guys on the roster feel just great hearing the GM say that.
Anyone impressed by Joe Schoen is easily impressed or his predecessor set such a low bar that mediocre seems great.
. Therefore, the offensive lineup the rest of that game:
Ezuedu
Lemeiuex (sp) Glowinski also played
Bredeson
McKethan
Neal
Breida and Brightwell
WDR, Hyatt, Hodgins
Waller and Cage.
Truth is this is pretty representative of the level of offensive talent Jones has played with for five years. It’s absurd. Do I know he’d be better with better talent. No. Do I think ignoring this reality makes any sense. No. I have no problem moving on. Circumstances are what they are. However, given the above the amount of animus Jones faces here is absurd as well.
With how the conversation is going to go on this when the Giants start 1-3.
-Jones looks meh/undwhelming in home opener against the Vikings, which is traditionally how he's looked in every home opener in his career. Since they're not playing Tepper/McAdoo/Rhule's Panthers, they lose.
-Jones looks much better next week on the road against a weak opponent. Much like Az in 2023 or Wash in 2021, the game is decided on the last drive; either/or whether they win or lose this one.
-Jones looks ok for 1 or 2 quarters against the Browns but eventually folds in the 2nd half and starts throwing scatter balls and taking uneccessary sacks. Likely this is the part of the season where the usual suspects start blaming an injury on the offensive line or skill positions for Jones's struggles
-Dallas on national TV in which Jones is 1-11. loss.
The conversation is really going to be crazy at this point. We'll see how Papa/Banks/Schmelk squirm through this one.
With how the conversation is going to go on this when the Giants start 1-3.
-Jones looks meh/undwhelming in home opener against the Vikings, which is traditionally how he's looked in every home opener in his career. Since they're not playing Tepper/McAdoo/Rhule's Panthers, they lose.
-Jones looks much better next week on the road against a weak opponent. Much like Az in 2023 or Wash in 2021, the game is decided on the last drive; either/or whether they win or lose this one.
-Jones looks ok for 1 or 2 quarters against the Browns but eventually folds in the 2nd half and starts throwing scatter balls and taking uneccessary sacks. Likely this is the part of the season where the usual suspects start blaming an injury on the offensive line or skill positions for Jones's struggles
-Dallas on national TV in which Jones is 1-11. loss.
The conversation is really going to be crazy at this point. We'll see how Papa/Banks/Schmelk squirm through this one.
I'd love to argue with you, but sadly I can't. I will be shocked if we are not lamenting another lost season by Columbus Day.
Is not limited to the giants or even sports in general. It’s a product of society and social media and it’s everywhere.
Miserable twats abound. And they sure do like company.
The genesis of the discussion was papa commenting on a thread or post that waS discussing college football. An obsessive nutter came galloping in and turned it into a Daniel Jones thread chock full of rage and bile.
Is not limited to the giants or even sports in general. It’s a product of society and social media and it’s everywhere.
Miserable twats abound. And they sure do like company.
The genesis of the discussion was papa commenting on a thread or post that waS discussing college football. An obsessive nutter came galloping in and turned it into a Daniel Jones thread chock full of rage and bile.
Sound familiar?
You are 100% correct. It is our fault that Jones has put up backup level numbers (as posted by Terps) and is being crammed down our throats by state run media as a quality qb who has been a victim of our absurd expectations that maybe he eclipses 20 TD passes in a single season. It is our fault that the Giants have had one of the 2 or 3 worsts records in football since 2012 and made very wrong choice a franchise could make over that period. It is our fault that a dinosaur retread of a GM selected a running back with the Giants highest draft selection in decades with a qb who was cooked and a non existent oline. Who could have seen that it was a disaster of a draft pick....??
Shame on us, if we are more supportive maybe the 6th overall pick in the draft will put up borderline starter numbers this coming season.
Is not limited to the giants or even sports in general. It’s a product of society and social media and it’s everywhere.
Miserable twats abound. And they sure do like company.
The genesis of the discussion was papa commenting on a thread or post that waS discussing college football. An obsessive nutter came galloping in and turned it into a Daniel Jones thread chock full of rage and bile.
are not objective analysts. They are employees of the Giants. If Jones comes out and and throws 7 picks week one their analysis of the game will be "Man, nothing went right for the Giants this week. They'll look to get a win next week!" If Jones comes out and throws 5 picks and fumbles 3 times in week two, they will suggest he is having a tough time shaking the rust off, but will look to get back to form in week 3.
They are providing you the Giants' front office view of the team, and for some reason really focused on attacking the fan base that doesn't warmly embrace the continued ineptitude and losing.
I used to love listening to these guys, but they - especially Papa - has gone full Dottino level shill.
are not objective analysts. They are employees of the Giants. If Jones comes out and and throws 7 picks week one their analysis of the game will be "Man, nothing went right for the Giants this week. They'll look to get a win next week!" If Jones comes out and throws 5 picks and fumbles 3 times in week two, they will suggest he is having a tough time shaking the rust off, but will look to get back to form in week 3.
They are providing you the Giants' front office view of the team, and for some reason really focused on attacking the fan base that doesn't warmly embrace the continued ineptitude and losing.
I used to love listening to these guys, but they - especially Papa - has gone full Dottino level shill.
Even if we put aside the fans, it has to drive the other players bonkers that Jones garners so much positive attention from the organization. There is actually talent on the current team, yet the spin machine from state run media rolls out in full force for Jones.
aer probably gamblers who lost money on them is next level gas lighting.
They are people who are tired of watching the team not be competitive on offense because their QB can't read a defense. The team's stubborn willingness to stick with him despite his failures is why fans have turned so against Jones.
Although it is nice that they are not blaming Jones' failures directly on John Mara firing everyone every two years.
RE: Remember when Dottino ripped fans for criticizing Gettleman?
Giants management is tone deaf, in siege mode, or both.
This entire organization is taking on John Mara's personality - Uninformed petulance.
So Jones sucks because his coaches and coordinators are being fired every two years? Who is making that decision you are criticizing? They act like that was something imposed by the league, not a result of John Maras poor decisions and uninformed petulance.
For so many reasons I think the Seattle game last year was his last stand. A chance to basically stabilize (and to that point) save the young season and prove at least a little bit you are the right guy for the contract they gave you. It was a complete failure and a good QB wins that game at home against a good but not great Seattle team.
It seems the Seattle game is what most point to as their last straw with Jones. He played poorly. No doubt. A good QB wins that game?
JMS and Bellinger left the game after the first series due to injury. Therefore, the offensive lineup the rest of that game:
Ezuedu
Lemeiuex (sp) Glowinski also played
Bredeson
McKethan
Neal
Breida and Brightwell
WDR, Hyatt, Hodgins
Waller and Cage
Jones played poorly. But if you’re being honest, there’s probably not many QBs lifting that group to victory.
Thank you mako j. The Do It Anywayz stuff is nauseating. As is the "It's been 5 years" stuff. If you're served a shit sandwich for 5 years, you've still never had a good meal. It's not the fault of the guy eating the shit sandwich every year.
Does that mean DJ's a good QB? Of course not. But to keep drawing lines in the sand like the SEA game was the end-all be-all is foolish. As usual he was in a weeks-long run of getting annihilated behind an embarrassing OL and forgettable skill players.
The line in the sand to draw is this guy is physically & mentally beaten up now, and has been abused by this fanbase. A fresh start seems to make sense.
from the truth in favor of the shill Giant propaganda machine. I used to love Papa and Banks. But now I cannot even listen to the weekly Brian Daboll show where they gloss over anything negative and simply hype the positive. As Mike from Ohio says above, they are both now right there with Paul Dottino as gag worthy propagandists preaching their opinions as truth as if we are know nothing stooges.
Here's a hint: the road to a return to greatness will be paved with authenticity, not propaganda. Both with players in the locker room, as well as knowledgable sports fans. And this ain't whining (and btw, is there anything more pathetic than posters whining about other posters' opinions?). It is a reality we share that doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon. You can either stick your head in the sand. Or scream loudly. As BBI did in forcing the ouster of the Joe Judge clown show.
So keep screaming loudly my fellow BBI warriors for authentic discourse and meritocratic performance expectations and maybe some day we will have a franchise to be proud of again.
If anyone has lost money betting on Daniel Jones winning football games in the last several years, that is on them, not Daniel Jones.
I guess we all need to try harder to embrace being fans of the "lovable losers" who are a bunch of swell guys you'd like to have a beer with, but just don't compete on the field.
If anyone has lost money betting on Daniel Jones winning football games in the last several years, that is on them, not Daniel Jones.
I guess we all need to try harder to embrace being fans of the "lovable losers" who are a bunch of swell guys you'd like to have a beer with, but just don't compete on the field.
Something tells me that having a beer with Jones wouldn’t really be all that entertaining either
If anyone has lost money betting on Daniel Jones winning football games in the last several years, that is on them, not Daniel Jones.
I guess we all need to try harder to embrace being fans of the "lovable losers" who are a bunch of swell guys you'd like to have a beer with, but just don't compete on the field.
Something tells me that having a beer with Jones wouldn’t really be all that entertaining either
No, but you know he would use a lot of "please" and "thank you" and certainly use a coaster, so there's that.
Man, I really don’t know if the people in that organization realize how ugly it’ll get this fall if Jones struggles and one of JJ, Penix, or Nix look good…
Man, I really don’t know if the people in that organization realize how ugly it’ll get this fall if Jones struggles and one of JJ, Penix, or Nix look good…
I don't think the organization realizes how badly they are coming across by lecturing their fan base about how they are shitty fans with irrational agenda-driven opinions if they don't fall in line and cheer for Daniel Jones.
You have put a crappy team on the field for the past decade. Maybe try understanding why your fans sick of it instead of lecturing them about their obligation to a team that has been a league laughing stock for the past decade.
Maybe it's time for arrogance to be humbled again?
Aaaaaaand The usual suspects bombing the thread again. Surprise surprise.... lol
Most on this thread seem to agree that Papa and Banks are coming off looking like organizational shills here. The only one who seems to be 'bombing' the thread is you and your 'lol' take.
Aaaaaaand The usual suspects bombing the thread again. Surprise surprise.... lol
Most on this thread seem to agree that Papa and Banks are coming off looking like organizational shills here. The only one who seems to be 'bombing' the thread is you and your 'lol' take.
Banks suggesting people who don't like Jones
Mike from Ohio : 11:43 am : link : reply
aer probably gamblers who lost money on them is next level gas lighting.
They are people who are tired of watching the team not be competitive on offense because their QB can't read a defense. The team's stubborn willingness to stick with him despite his failures is why fans have turned so against Jones.
Although it is nice that they are not blaming Jones' failures directly on John Mara firing everyone every two years.
It's also magnified by the fact that so many other teams move on from their QBs much, much sooner.
Look at the Chiefs - Alex Smith's performance is light years better than Jones, and they chose to draft Mahomes.
Right now, you're needing to trust that the Giants know better than everyone else. Can anyone truly believe that?
who were born in the 1980s or later criticizing Carl Banks since they never got to see him play. But anyone my age who does should have their Giants Fan card revoked. I'm grateful that he's still involved with the Giants. If you never saw Carl Banks play you have no idea what you missed. He was a hall of fame LB playing the run and he took the other team's TE completely out of the game. I've never seen a LB cover a TE's better. He was an excellent pass rusher/blitzer too. He didn't get as many pass rush opportunities as the other OLB. Partly because he was so great and dependable at the other LB jobs. He was the perfect bookend to #56.
Bob Papa is a different story. Enough said. I'm curious how many people listen to that podcast. Doesn't he realize that the people that are listening are probably the most dedicated fans the team has? I'm sure he thinks he defending the people that sign his paycheck but he's probably doing more harm than good. There is no defending what the Giants have become in the past decade. Carl Banks Highlights - ( New Window )
who were born in the 1980s or later criticizing Carl Banks since they never got to see him play. But anyone my age who does should have their Giants Fan card revoked.
I watched Carl Banks play and he was an incredible linebacker and Giant. I also think what he said in that video is asinine. I can hold both of those thoughts simultaneously. It's the same way I can acknowledge LT was the greatest player of all time, and also kind of a very flawed human being.
Being a fan of a player does not mean you agree with everything they say. I am surprised that has to be said to an adult.
No one, repeat no one can get anything out of this guy
Whats more likely- every single coach we have hired for 5 years has been absolutely terrible or the Giants are forcing these coaches to put a round peg in a square hole?
No matter what system he has played in, who has coached him and who has played with him and at what level he has played it. He simply hasnt done anything but lose games, throw 200 yds or less a game, throw 1 TD per game and 6.8 ypa
You telling me Joe Judge and Pat Shurmer were great coaches? And the, what? 4 Offensive Coordinators were really actually some of the best but DJ was holding the team back? gtfo. This is the most ridiculous take I've read yet. Banks is right.
John Mara was angry at the end of season press conference after 2009. The team missed the playoffs and went 8-8. Mara was visibly angry.
And now here we are. What happened?
The scary possibility is that this is the way they've always been run, and the successes they've enjoyed have been the result of external influence (Rozelle forcing George Young on them) and luck, and not some larger policy or plan.
Eric's stickied OTA post had ten comments in it after 3 hours. Conversations about the 2025 QB class or FA QBs are the only football topics that generate anything.
Much of the fanbase feels worn down, and who could blame them?
RE: Their podcast has become a platform for bashing the fans
and defending Jones. But some of those fans that they are bashing, are their listeners! That’s not a formula for success.
Maybe if those fans they are "bashing" would calm down for a second and listen, they would understand that they are not saying anything but the truth. Jones may not be the guy long term but he is the guy right now. Shitting on him is destructive behavior. Rooting against him is the same as rooting against your team. I've said this a million times. It's a cowards way out. You're afraid to be let down again so you embrace losing and blame DJ because it's the easy thing to do. There is logic to what the so-called DJFC has been saying all along. The ONLY argument against Jones that is based on fact is that he has been injured a lot. Other than that, we have NO clue what Jones can be with a true #1 and an OL that can block.
RE: RE: Their podcast has become a platform for bashing the fans
Is divisive, leads to a bad culture and finger pointing
And its organization wide from owner on down
Joe Schoen said
“it's hard to go in and compete week in and week out if you don't have your best players. One of the guys was telling me the other day, going into the season, if you told me (tight end Darren) Waller, (tackle) Andrew Thomas, Saquon and Daniel would play less than 40 plays together, I wouldn't have been real excited about that, and that's the reality of how it played out.”
Im sure the other 49 guys on the roster feel just great hearing the GM say that.
The other 49 guys know who the best players on the team are. They haven't done anything to earn that level of confidence yet. But when the best players are injured, it's an opportunity to go out there and GET the GM and the fans excited. Tommy DeVito did just that. At least for a little bit. Going into the season, even the other players were talking about Waller and DJ and Barkley and how fast Hyatt was and in Preseason, when we got a brief glimpse, it looked friggin phenomenal! Then within an hour and 30 minutes, all the top players were sidelined. But yeah, that's all DJ's fault.
and defending Jones. But some of those fans that they are bashing, are their listeners! That’s not a formula for success.
Maybe if those fans they are "bashing" would calm down for a second and listen, they would understand that they are not saying anything but the truth. Jones may not be the guy long term but he is the guy right now. Shitting on him is destructive behavior. Rooting against him is the same as rooting against your team. I've said this a million times. It's a cowards way out. You're afraid to be let down again so you embrace losing and blame DJ because it's the easy thing to do. There is logic to what the so-called DJFC has been saying all along. The ONLY argument against Jones that is based on fact is that he has been injured a lot. Other than that, we have NO clue what Jones can be with a true #1 and an OL that can block.
Wait a minute...stating your opinion that Daniel Jones sucks and you want the Giants to get rid of him makes you a coward?
Those people are afraid of being let down? We've already been let down by this team for the past decade and our first round pick who can't play QB at a league average level.
I would argue the exact opposite. Refusing to acknowledge reality and cheering blindly into an echo chamber of everyone telling you everything is ok is cowardly.
With how the conversation is going to go on this when the Giants start 1-3.
-Jones looks meh/undwhelming in home opener against the Vikings, which is traditionally how he's looked in every home opener in his career. Since they're not playing Tepper/McAdoo/Rhule's Panthers, they lose.
-Jones looks much better next week on the road against a weak opponent. Much like Az in 2023 or Wash in 2021, the game is decided on the last drive; either/or whether they win or lose this one.
-Jones looks ok for 1 or 2 quarters against the Browns but eventually folds in the 2nd half and starts throwing scatter balls and taking uneccessary sacks. Likely this is the part of the season where the usual suspects start blaming an injury on the offensive line or skill positions for Jones's struggles
-Dallas on national TV in which Jones is 1-11. loss.
The conversation is really going to be crazy at this point. We'll see how Papa/Banks/Schmelk squirm through this one.
At the end of the day, if he is not doing his job, then yes, that is how the conversation will go. Thing is, we don't know how it will all play out. you goofy asses hoping we're 1-3 after week 4 to prove how right you are? You're the ones Banks, a LEGEND, is talking to.
Aaaaaaand The usual suspects bombing the thread again. Surprise surprise.... lol
The utter lack of comprehension and self awareness should be alarming....but it's not.
Toxic fandom is not about how you root or what you think about the team, players, mgmt. It is about how you express yourself, how you act and interact.
It is not that people are critical (which is deserved) it is the people who are not civil.
If you regularly find a way to comment on Jones or Mara or Gettlemen in a thread that is objectively not about them....you may be part of the problem
If you attack, belittle, abuse, or bully other people for having a different opinion ... you may be toxic
If you obsessively spam every thread all day, every day with the same 4 thoughts....you may need help.
If you "talk" to people on the internet in a way you never would at a bar.... you might be a candy ass punk.
If we should be listening to the players in the locker room, what does it say that Thibodeaux publicly questioned Jones being paid before Barkley (who the GM let walk) and our top draft pick said we still had to figure out the quarterback position?
I do rather enjoy how you all have felt compelled to leaven your...
The scary possibility is that this is the way they've always been run, and the successes they've enjoyed have been the result of external influence (Rozelle forcing George Young on them) and luck, and not some larger policy or plan.
This is what I love about the BBI. Some yahoo comes on spouting some kind of criticism based on something he clearly knows fuck all about. George Young wasn't forced on anybody and he certainly wasn't forced on anybody by their record in the 1970s. The Giants were trying to find a full-time GM but had a 50-50 ownership split between two parties that hated each other. Anybody Wellington suggested Tim rejected out of hand and the only people Tim suggested were people that he knew Wellington would not accept. So Rozelle suggested GY as a compromise. There have even been reports that Wellington actually asked Rozelle to suggest Young because if Well did Tim would turn him down too.
And other than the fact that the organization has won four Super Bowls, more than 27 of the other 31 teams in the league, it truly is one fucked up team. And 18 games without a playoff win. The humiliation!
RE: RE: It's amazing how a franchise can lose its way
John Mara was angry at the end of season press conference after 2009. The team missed the playoffs and went 8-8. Mara was visibly angry.
And now here we are. What happened?
The scary possibility is that this is the way they've always been run, and the successes they've enjoyed have been the result of external influence (Rozelle forcing George Young on them) and luck, and not some larger policy or plan.
I think most franchises are 'saved' by savants (i.e. luck) rather than run well over long time periods. Maybe the Ravens, Steelers, even Eagles are exceptions given their decades long relevancy.
Giants were saved by Parcells and Coughlin (and LT and Eli). I don't mean this as some harsh indictment of the team, I think most are in this same boat.
Aaaaaaand The usual suspects bombing the thread again. Surprise surprise.... lol
The utter lack of comprehension and self awareness should be alarming....but it's not.
Toxic fandom is not about how you root or what you think about the team, players, mgmt. It is about how you express yourself, how you act and interact.
It is not that people are critical (which is deserved) it is the people who are not civil.
If you regularly find a way to comment on Jones or Mara or Gettlemen in a thread that is objectively not about them....you may be part of the problem
If you attack, belittle, abuse, or bully other people for having a different opinion ... you may be toxic
If you obsessively spam every thread all day, every day with the same 4 thoughts....you may need help.
If you "talk" to people on the internet in a way you never would at a bar.... you might be a candy ass punk.
onward and downward...
Well said Bear! Maybe the sanest post ever on this site. I would add the arrogance is appalling. People, most of whom have never played a down of football in their lives, come on here and spout with absolute certainty that they know better than guys who've done this all their lives and whose jobs depend on what decisions they make and then attack with even more vitriolic certainty when countered. All the time! It is a little toxic.
People, most of whom have never played a down of football in their lives, come on here and spout with absolute certainty that they know better than guys who've done this all their lives and whose jobs depend on what decisions they make and then attack with even more vitriolic certainty when countered. All the time! It is a little toxic.
Double-digit losses in eight of the past ten seasons. But, by all means, tell me more about how well run the franchise is.
Aaaaaaand The usual suspects bombing the thread again. Surprise surprise.... lol
The utter lack of comprehension and self awareness should be alarming....but it's not.
Toxic fandom is not about how you root or what you think about the team, players, mgmt. It is about how you express yourself, how you act and interact.
It is not that people are critical (which is deserved) it is the people who are not civil.
If you regularly find a way to comment on Jones or Mara or Gettlemen in a thread that is objectively not about them....you may be part of the problem
If you attack, belittle, abuse, or bully other people for having a different opinion ... you may be toxic
If you obsessively spam every thread all day, every day with the same 4 thoughts....you may need help.
If you "talk" to people on the internet in a way you never would at a bar.... you might be a candy ass punk.
onward and downward...
Well said Bear! Maybe the sanest post ever on this site. I would add the arrogance is appalling. People, most of whom have never played a down of football in their lives, come on here and spout with absolute certainty that they know better than guys who've done this all their lives and whose jobs depend on what decisions they make and then attack with even more vitriolic certainty when countered. All the time! It is a little toxic.
People, most of whom have never played a down of football in their lives, come on here and spout with absolute certainty that they know better than guys who've done this all their lives and whose jobs depend on what decisions they make and then attack with even more vitriolic certainty when countered. All the time! It is a little toxic.
Double-digit losses in eight of the past ten seasons. But, by all means, tell me more about how well run the franchise is.
If you had played a single down of football, you would know a long history of double digit losing seasons is the plan of a successful organization filled with the right experts.
If the Giants did it, it was correct. Never forget that.
If you had played a single down of football, you would know a long history of double digit losing seasons is the plan of a successful organization filled with the right experts.
If the Giants did it, it was correct. Never forget that.
I have no effing idea what your point is but of course that's par for the course. Except that the people that currently run the Giants football ops, who you folks are by definition dumping on, have only been here two years. In fact they took over a team that had a 22-59 record in the previous 5 seasons, but in their 2 seasons are 16-19-1 with a playoff appearance. And Brian Daboll is the coach most credited with helping Josh allen develop into one of the best QBs in the league. But WTF does he know about QBs compared with guys like Terps and SF and yourself.
WTF? Where did I state I know more about QBs than Dabs? I obviously don’t.
I just think Jones sucks. Tar and feather me if you so desire.
Ah yes; self-awareness raises its ugly head again. Brian Daboll clearly doesn't think Jones sucks. The fact that you do and have said so literally a million times apparently without a moment's reflection means you think you know more about QBs that Daboll. Sheesh!
It’s a fucking fan site where people voice their opinions!!! My opinion is that Jones sucks. I honestly have no fucking clue what Dabs’ really thinks about Jones because I’m not in his head, nor are you.
I wasn't talking about disagreeing with his opinions about the Giants or their owners, front office, coaches and players. Of course it's reasonable to disagree with his opinions about the Giants, especially since he's a currently employed by an organization with rabbit ears.
I often disagree with him. I think Daniel Jones is a complete bust on year 6 of a scholarship as he would say. I think as long as Daniel Jones is the Giants QB1 they have a 0.0 chance to win a Super Bowl.
I meant criticize him on a personal level not about his opinions on the Giants state propaganda news outlet. I think it's pretty obvious how I feel about Carl Banks but I stopped listening to that podcast a long time ago and I didn't listen to the link.
Somewhat off topic I was listening to Giants kickoff or Giants huddle after the draft. The show where they take phone calls. Schmeelk and Dottino were the hosts and Dottino was being the voice of reason regarding "upgrades". It was a pleasant surprise. I haven't pushed my luck by listening again.
It’s a fucking fan site where people voice their opinions!!! My opinion is that Jones sucks. I honestly have no fucking clue what Dabs’ really thinks about Jones because I’m not in his head, nor are you.
Are you this stupid?
My goodness SF; the Giants, with no doubt a huge input from Daboll, have chosen to stick with Jones and by all accounts are going to give him every chance to succeed this fall. Obviously they don't think he sucks.
And I don't think anybody has any problem with people voicing their opinion. You like a decision or you disagree with it and move on. The Giants have made their decision as to how they want to proceed at the position this year and everyone is free to agree or disagree. But the decision has been made and the team is moving on. What is bizarre is having fans arguing until they are blue in the face 'but what has Jones ever done?' and 'how many chances does a guy get' etc etc etc to the point that a lot of them sound like they'll be cheering against the Giants this year so what they maybe get a shot at a better QB next year. I'm cheering for the Giants to do well with Jones this year and keep building to get to where we want to get. If Jones flops or has another injury then you move on, but hoping that something like that happens is bizarre.
The Daniel Jones NYG QB discussion topic is officially the proverbial dead horse. There will be no new material here. Next season or any season beyond that will not reveal anything about Jones we don't already know. Our best case scenario here is stays healthy and plays decent. That is our pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. However, it is so much more likely that he is ineffective or hurts his neck again (or something else).
WTF? Where did I state I know more about QBs than Dabs? I obviously don’t.
I just think Jones sucks. Tar and feather me if you so desire.
This is what all the apologists do. Its an appeal to authority to support a point they can't argue any other way. The brightest people made the decision so if you criticize it, you must believe you are smarter than them.
It is a cop out when you don't have a lucid point to make.
WTF? Where did I state I know more about QBs than Dabs? I obviously don’t.
I just think Jones sucks. Tar and feather me if you so desire.
This is what all the apologists do. Its an appeal to authority to support a point they can't argue any other way. The brightest people made the decision so if you criticize it, you must believe you are smarter than them.
It is a cop out when you don't have a lucid point to make.
So whom am I going to believe here Mike. Some guy howling at the moon in a bar or some highly respected football people. Let me think on it for awhile!
I am not asking you to believe me over Brian Daboll. I think you know that, right? I am expressing my opinion on Daniel Jones based on watching him play football for the last 6 seasons. If you choose to believe that Daboll thinks Jones is a really good QB because Daboll coaches the Giants and Jones is his QB, than believe away.
Very knowledgeable NFL people with decades of experience draft players who bust all the time. They start guys who play poorly. It doesn't mean they are idiots, it means they are not infallible.
Brian Daboll didn't create Josh Allen in his basement. Daboll certainly had a big part in his development into a superstar. Does that mean every QB he touches will become Josh Allen? Look at all the jobs he held in the past as QB coach or offensive coordinator and point out the other guys he turned into great QBs.
Daboll knows more about QB than me. We also don't know his opinion about Daniel Jones, and we do know he is not infallible.
But if it helps you to continuously oversimplify things to support your opinion, let it rip!
I'll speak for all of us who have been arguing and fighting about Daniel Jones since the day he was drafted.
You can report back to Bob and Carl that without one iota of doubt everyone one of us hopes the Giants have a 19-0 record in 2024 and Daniel Jones is the MVP of the regular season and the Super Bowl. But anyone who thinks that Daniel Jones has shown he can be a Super Bowl winning QB is dealing in alternate facts.
This is a Giants internet fan board. We’re not on the payroll. The Giants have been a dysfunctional mess for over a decade. They are back to being the same laughing stock and league doormat they were when the fan base sold out Giants Stadium over and over and over in the 1970s no matter how bad the team got. For the record Tim J Mara should be in the Giants Ring of Honor. He is the person who pushed the Giants front office out of the 1950’s and pushed his uncle out of the way which changed everything until his uncle’s kids took over in 2012.
My first games as a Giants fan were in Yankee Stadium watching Lombardi's Packers and Landry's Cowboys humiliate the Giants the way Jerry Jones Cowboys do now. 89-14. Are you kidding me?
WTF? Where did I state I know more about QBs than Dabs? I obviously don’t.
I just think Jones sucks. Tar and feather me if you so desire.
This is what all the apologists do. Its an appeal to authority to support a point they can't argue any other way. The brightest people made the decision so if you criticize it, you must believe you are smarter than them.
It is a cop out when you don't have a lucid point to make.
So whom am I going to believe here Mike. Some guy howling at the moon in a bar or some highly respected football people. Let me think on it for awhile!
People said the same thing about Gettleman and he was an unmitigated disaster
RE: RE: RE: It's amazing how a franchise can lose its way
The scary possibility is that this is the way they've always been run, and the successes they've enjoyed have been the result of external influence (Rozelle forcing George Young on them) and luck, and not some larger policy or plan.
This is what I love about the BBI. Some yahoo comes on spouting some kind of criticism based on something he clearly knows fuck all about. George Young wasn't forced on anybody and he certainly wasn't forced on anybody by their record in the 1970s. The Giants were trying to find a full-time GM but had a 50-50 ownership split between two parties that hated each other. Anybody Wellington suggested Tim rejected out of hand and the only people Tim suggested were people that he knew Wellington would not accept. So Rozelle suggested GY as a compromise. There have even been reports that Wellington actually asked Rozelle to suggest Young because if Well did Tim would turn him down too.
And other than the fact that the organization has won four Super Bowls, more than 27 of the other 31 teams in the league, it truly is one fucked up team. And 18 games without a playoff win. The humiliation!
The only one mentioning that Welly wanted George Young was Welly.
The "anybody Wellington suggested that Tim objected to" was some former reporter and drinking buddy of Welly's. Tim blew a gasket and wanted to be bought out. He threatened to sue. That's when Rozelle got involved and imposed order. The Giants got Young who would not have come if he had to put up with Wellington's interference or the feuding Maras. He got absolute 100% control over football operations and a 5 year contract, Rozelle imposed a gag and a 100% hands-off-football- operations order on Wellington under threat of suspension if he interfered and Tim was told to shut up about lawsuits. That's how the Giants got George Young instead of one of his uncle's former players or drinking buddies in charge.
So, was Young forced on Wellington? No. Did Rozelle keep Wellington away from football operations under threat of suspension. Yes. Don't think for a minute it was voluntary. Did Rozelle provide guarantees to Young? Yes
But don't worry nostalgia buffs, Wellington's son is back and fucking up the franchise just like his old man. A chip off the old block.
WTF? Where did I state I know more about QBs than Dabs? I obviously don’t.
I just think Jones sucks. Tar and feather me if you so desire.
This is what all the apologists do. Its an appeal to authority to support a point they can't argue any other way. The brightest people made the decision so if you criticize it, you must believe you are smarter than them.
It is a cop out when you don't have a lucid point to make.
So whom am I going to believe here Mike. Some guy howling at the moon in a bar or some highly respected football people. Let me think on it for awhile!
snablats, you probably said this same thing last year when they extended Jones--how's that working out for you?
On a larger point, I find this shit from Papa and Banks annoying AF. For them to judge people as ‘goofy’ or not real fans because they have the temerity to go after Jones as a QB or the organization at large…like seriously fuck off. There are definitely people in that building seemingly more concerned with attacking the fans for justifiably being pissed at the past decade than actually winning.
is perfectly happy to publicly shit on any player they don't think is performing. But not sweet little Daniel and his $100 million. Leave Daniel Alone.
No one, repeat no one can get anything out of this guy
Whats more likely- every single coach we have hired for 5 years has been absolutely terrible or the Giants are forcing these coaches to put a round peg in a square hole?
No matter what system he has played in, who has coached him and who has played with him and at what level he has played it. He simply hasnt done anything but lose games, throw 200 yds or less a game, throw 1 TD per game and 6.8 ypa
You telling me Joe Judge and Pat Shurmer were great coaches? And the, what? 4 Offensive Coordinators were really actually some of the best but DJ was holding the team back? gtfo. This is the most ridiculous take I've read yet. Banks is right.
You are absolutely embarrassing yourself on this thread. Was Shimer a good HEAD COACH? Hell no. But the man could run an offense and was known to be very good with QBs. Yet here you are proclaiming that Daniel Jones has had nothing but ALL bad coaches, bad teammates, bad weapons, bad OL, bad defenses, on and on and on. And it’s never once dawned on you dumb, ignorant Pom Pom wavers that maybe, just maybe Daniel Jones plays a part in some of those endless failed coaches and players. Nope. THEY’VE all failed HIM!
He's just parroting Mara...'We've done everything possible to screw this kid up.'
As if Jones should be absolved for everything. No other Giant that I can remember has gotten this treatment. It's truly remarkable. But hey, we'll start our 1-4 this fall, Jones will suck, & the excuses will come out again.
Someone above mentioned BBI as the place self-awareness goes to die. A thread that started out essentially as a criticism of a commentary that the place has become rather toxic with its incessant, repetitive, vitriolic anti-Jones diatribes devolves into a series of incessant, repetitive, vitriolic anti-Jones diatribes!! Well done guys!!
will sleep happily on his big pile of money regardless of who attacks him or defends him on line.
Then he'll wake up and get to work on time. And we'll get a press release about how amazing it is that he gets to work on time every day and how nobody is more dedicated to their craft because he also went to the gym.
Someone above mentioned BBI as the place self-awareness goes to die. A thread that started out essentially as a criticism of a commentary that the place has become rather toxic with its incessant, repetitive, vitriolic anti-Jones diatribes devolves into a series of incessant, repetitive, vitriolic anti-Jones diatribes!! Well done guys!!
The thread's premise was Banks & Papa-two shills-lecturing fans for how they should feel about Jones. I'm so fucking sick of it.
'We're in goofy land right now.'-Carl Bank. Like fuck off Carl.
Someone above mentioned BBI as the place self-awareness goes to die. A thread that started out essentially as a criticism of a commentary that the place has become rather toxic with its incessant, repetitive, vitriolic anti-Jones diatribes devolves into a series of incessant, repetitive, vitriolic anti-Jones diatribes!! Well done guys!!
The thread's premise was Banks & Papa-two shills-lecturing fans for how they should feel about Jones. I'm so fucking sick of it.
'We're in goofy land right now.'-Carl Bank. Like fuck off Carl.
They are shills because they don't agree with you on Daniel Jones?
Yes. They're fucking shills because they constantly parrot the Giants talking point when it comes to Jones & no one else. Papa & Banks-neither who'll be confused with Summerall & Madden-just trot out the party line. It's fucking annoying.
But what I find more insulting is their disdain for fans who dare criticize the Giants or Jones. Like fuck off Bob & Carl...maybe if we haven't sucked the last decade, people wouldn't be so mad.
Someone above mentioned BBI as the place self-awareness goes to die. A thread that started out essentially as a criticism of a commentary that the place has become rather toxic with its incessant, repetitive, vitriolic anti-Jones diatribes devolves into a series of incessant, repetitive, vitriolic anti-Jones diatribes!! Well done guys!!
The thread's premise was Banks & Papa-two shills-lecturing fans for how they should feel about Jones. I'm so fucking sick of it.
'We're in goofy land right now.'-Carl Bank. Like fuck off Carl.
They are shills because they don't agree with you on Daniel Jones?
The franchise play by play guy and a ring of honor legend are wasting time telling fans what to think and how to act while this team has been 3rd and 4th place for 10 years.
I'm @ my fucking wits end with this shit. Carl & Papa giving shit to fans who have the audacity to point out Jones isn't a good ? & then ? their fanhood..
'They have made it their life's work to shit on Daniel Jones'-Carl Bank.
No Carl, no one is shitting on Daniel Jones. They're just pointing out that he's not a good QB & want a better one.
But we're 'goofy' per Carl. Seriously Carl, fuck off.
I'm @ my fucking wits end with this shit. Carl & Papa giving shit to fans who have the audacity to point out Jones isn't a good ? & then ? their fanhood..
'They have made it their life's work to shit on Daniel Jones'-Carl Bank.
No Carl, no one is shitting on Daniel Jones. They're just pointing out that he's not a good QB & want a better one.
But we're 'goofy' per Carl. Seriously Carl, fuck off.
Ya think you might be getting a bit to wound up over this?😁😁😁
He's just parroting Mara...'We've done everything possible to screw this kid up.'
As if Jones should be absolved for everything. No other Giant that I can remember has gotten this treatment. It's truly remarkable. But hey, we'll start our 1-4 this fall, Jones will suck, & the excuses will come out again.
New York Giants football...FEEL THE EXCITEMENT!
Of course the excuses will continue. I mean, they already have the “Jones was coming off a severe injury and it usually takes 2 years to get back to normal” all locked and loaded. And Mara will agree with them and there we are, on to year 7…
He's just parroting Mara...'We've done everything possible to screw this kid up.'
As if Jones should be absolved for everything. No other Giant that I can remember has gotten this treatment. It's truly remarkable. But hey, we'll start our 1-4 this fall, Jones will suck, & the excuses will come out again.
New York Giants football...FEEL THE EXCITEMENT!
Of course the excuses will continue. I mean, they already have the “Jones was coming off a severe injury and it usually takes 2 years to get back to normal” all locked and loaded. And Mara will agree with them and there we are, on to year 7…
I wonder how Mara felt trying to draft his replacement
Papa & Banks basically telling Giants fans to be content because we have been better than Washington and that Dallas hasn't won a Super Bowl . And The Eagles have lost 2 Super Bowls along the way
The team won 2 Super Bowls over a decade ago do everyone should be happy with that until apparently someone in our division tops it.
I just can’t do another season of Jones. He lost me for good in the Seahawks game.
DJHC = Seattle game
DJFC = Minnesota playoff victory
Ive got about 50 other starts from Jones if you would like?
Lets start with his last one vs the Raiders
Or his lone prime time win vs Washington where a playoff spot was basically on the line and Jones unloaded for a 160 yds passing and 35 yds rushing and directing our offense to an inspired 12 pts. (We fortunately got an epic game from Kayvon who had a sack, FF, FR and TD on a singular play)
Or his amazing historic 2 TD to 5 Ints start in 2020 - you probably thought i was gonna say 2023 but no he also did it in 2020- to open the year where he had a 4 game no TD streak! He conpiled a whopping 840 yds 0 TDs 3 INTs in 4 losses before the leaves fell in October
If ever there was proof of what Banks was saying its this thread! Banks wasn't criticizing fans for criticizing the team or even Daniel Jones. He was commenting on the over-the-top incessant, repetitive, vitriolic, bitter, angry almost spiteful verbal abuse directed at Jones coming from so-called fans of the team combined with the over-the-top incessant, repetitive, vitriolic, bitter, angry almost spiteful verbal abuse directed at anyone who has the temerity to question some of the premise or data they are quoting coming from the same people who call themselves fans but come across as bitter angry old men.
I just can’t do another season of Jones. He lost me for good in the Seahawks game.
DJHC = Seattle game
DJFC = Minnesota playoff victory
Ive got about 50 other starts from Jones if you would like?
Lets start with his last one vs the Raiders
Or his lone prime time win vs Washington where a playoff spot was basically on the line and Jones unloaded for a 160 yds passing and 35 yds rushing and directing our offense to an inspired 12 pts. (We fortunately got an epic game from Kayvon who had a sack, FF, FR and TD on a singular play)
Or his amazing historic 2 TD to 5 Ints start in 2020 - you probably thought i was gonna say 2023 but no he also did it in 2020- to open the year where he had a 4 game no TD streak! He conpiled a whopping 840 yds 0 TDs 3 INTs in 4 losses before the leaves fell in October
I mean theres a ton more if you want them
No need to share your life’s work sweetheart. We get it.
If ever there was proof of what Banks was saying its this thread! Banks wasn't criticizing fans for criticizing the team or even Daniel Jones. He was commenting on the over-the-top incessant, repetitive, vitriolic, bitter, angry almost spiteful verbal abuse directed at Jones coming from so-called fans of the team combined with the over-the-top incessant, repetitive, vitriolic, bitter, angry almost spiteful verbal abuse directed at anyone who has the temerity to question some of the premise or data they are quoting coming from the same people who call themselves fans but come across as bitter angry old men.
This ^^ ... and just a reminder, there's just one person who is THE key to resolving this DJ debate: DJ.
So regardless of your personal point of view, you might as well just stfu, relax, and let camp and the season unfold. But I do hope each side here has a designated Secretary tracking all the threads and comments that can be dredged up and excoriated when DJ does whatever it is he's going to be enabled to do this season. (Oh wait, maybe not ...)
1. Notice how other players don't get the same treatment as Jones? Why doesn't Evan Neal get any of the benefit of the doubt? Even Schoen said he needed to play better. Yet Jones gets a list of excuses. It's unfair to the rest of the players on the team.
2. There is no doubt to me once Jones is off the team the same people defending him now will be quick to blame him.
I will bite---Neal is still being called the starter as of now and Neal didn't play well in 2022. Jones did play well in 2022. He was one of the best rushing QBs in the league and played well in 9-10 games helping them win 9-10 games. Neal didn't help anyone that year. Yet he's still got a starting job.
Not to mention QBs need more helpful factors around them than the RT needs.
Also, QB and RT not quite the same entity when it comes to PR. But who cares. Both guys need to play well in 24 and contrary to popular belief I think Jones would be done here if he struggled this coming season. Which is all that matters.
people hang on 19-21 too much in regards to Jones. Yes those years happened but Schoen and Daboll care more about 2022 and 2023, than 2021, you can believe that.
HE's had one good year under this regime and one bad year. 24 is a big season for DJ. It's a big year for a lot of players.
RE: RE: RE: Their podcast has become a platform for bashing the fans
and defending Jones. But some of those fans that they are bashing, are their listeners! That’s not a formula for success.
Maybe if those fans they are "bashing" would calm down for a second and listen, they would understand that they are not saying anything but the truth. Jones may not be the guy long term but he is the guy right now. Shitting on him is destructive behavior. Rooting against him is the same as rooting against your team. I've said this a million times. It's a cowards way out. You're afraid to be let down again so you embrace losing and blame DJ because it's the easy thing to do. There is logic to what the so-called DJFC has been saying all along. The ONLY argument against Jones that is based on fact is that he has been injured a lot. Other than that, we have NO clue what Jones can be with a true #1 and an OL that can block.
Wait a minute...stating your opinion that Daniel Jones sucks and you want the Giants to get rid of him makes you a coward?
Those people are afraid of being let down? We've already been let down by this team for the past decade and our first round pick who can't play QB at a league average level.
I would argue the exact opposite. Refusing to acknowledge reality and cheering blindly into an echo chamber of everyone telling you everything is ok is cowardly.
No being a defeatist prick makes you a coward. RIGHT NOW Daniel Jones is the starting QB od the NY Football Giants. It's a new season. New pieces in place. Jones has had some pretty shitty circumstances to play in. The haters like to pretend he can't throw for more than 3 feet. The riders like to think he's an amazing QB and it's everyone else's fault. The rational thinkers actually acknowledge that we don't really know shit about DJ because he's had all of his starters on the field with him for, like, an hour over 6 seasons and no OL to speak of. So the reality is, we have no idea what he is or what he isn't. Only what he hasn't been ablel to do yet. This COULD be a great season. But there are "fans" that want DJ to fail. They want to be right. Anyone hoping this kid fails is a damn coward and I stick to that. You can think he sucks. But being unable to root for your team because you are afraid of being let down means you are letting fear control you. That is the definition of coward. If this doesn't apply to you, don't get your panties stuck up your ass.
If we should be listening to the players in the locker room, what does it say that Thibodeaux publicly questioned Jones being paid before Barkley (who the GM let walk) and our top draft pick said we still had to figure out the quarterback position?
We can take two things for this:
1.) Saquon Barkley was 100% the most talented and gifted athlete on our team and when DJ had been successful, Barkley was a major part of it (since it certainly wasn't the OL or the receivers). So to pay DJ before Barkely was bad enough. to pay him INSTEAD of Barkley was a complete head scratcher. Thibs was not wrong, but I don't think his intent was to say Jones didn't deserve to get paid. Just that Barkley should have been a priority. I'm not floundering or backpedaling. I've said this numerous times. I like DJ and I'd like to see him succeed with the right pieces in place and if he doesn't? move on. But I was always a FAN of Barkley. Gonna be hard watching him as an Eagle twice a year.
2.) Malik's statement had some context. He's also not wrong. Even if we can't agree on DJ's potential, I think we can ALL agree that the Giants actually DO need to figure out what they are doing at QB. Do they believe in DJ? Do they WANT to move on? Was Lock brought in to challenge DJ as the starter or is he purely a backup? Is DJ ready to go or will there be some additional time needed when the season starts? Malik is a kid that is going to speak his mind. He's not a QB coach. He's not a scout. Until Malik starts catching passes from Jones, he's not going to be able to tell anyone anything meaningful about how talented or skilled Jones is as an athlete or a leader. SO I fully took his comment as a truthful evaluation of the state of the Giants offense at the time of that interview. Not an indictment of Jone's level of QB play.
If ever there was proof of what Banks was saying its this thread! Banks wasn't criticizing fans for criticizing the team or even Daniel Jones. He was commenting on the over-the-top incessant, repetitive, vitriolic, bitter, angry almost spiteful verbal abuse directed at Jones coming from so-called fans of the team combined with the over-the-top incessant, repetitive, vitriolic, bitter, angry almost spiteful verbal abuse directed at anyone who has the temerity to question some of the premise or data they are quoting coming from the same people who call themselves fans but come across as bitter angry old men.
Can you please cite one of these spiteful vitriolic verbal abuse comments on this thread aimed at Daniel Jones?
Ill give you an example of what I mean.
Carl Banks saying those Giants fans who criticize Jones are just gamblers who lost money betting on the Giants
was dumb on many levels, not the least of which is that it raised expectations to a point that he's not capable of living up to. But, in football the QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Add in that Jones has had an awful OL every year and a really bad receiving corps every year, which made it nearly impossible for him to succeed, and it's clear that his lack of success isn't all on him. He's not a terrible player. He could have a very good year this year. He's not the long-term answer for the NYG at QB, they can and should look for a better QB. But the amount of derision being heaped on him is over the top; and Banks and Papa were right about that.
THIS ^^^^ Reading BBI is a discouraging pursuit lately. Yes the team has been bad, but the vitriol here is way beyond any semblance of constructive criticism.
RE: RE: Jones is not an elite QB. Picking him at 6
was dumb on many levels, not the least of which is that it raised expectations to a point that he's not capable of living up to. But, in football the QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Add in that Jones has had an awful OL every year and a really bad receiving corps every year, which made it nearly impossible for him to succeed, and it's clear that his lack of success isn't all on him. He's not a terrible player. He could have a very good year this year. He's not the long-term answer for the NYG at QB, they can and should look for a better QB. But the amount of derision being heaped on him is over the top; and Banks and Papa were right about that.
THIS ^^^^ Reading BBI is a discouraging pursuit lately. Yes the team has been bad, but the vitriol here is way beyond any semblance of constructive criticism.
Jones is a very bad QB. Please refer to his 2023 where he put up last in the league QB starter stats. Sorry, good QBs don't get outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
RE: RE: RE: Jones is not an elite QB. Picking him at 6
was dumb on many levels, not the least of which is that it raised expectations to a point that he's not capable of living up to. But, in football the QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Add in that Jones has had an awful OL every year and a really bad receiving corps every year, which made it nearly impossible for him to succeed, and it's clear that his lack of success isn't all on him. He's not a terrible player. He could have a very good year this year. He's not the long-term answer for the NYG at QB, they can and should look for a better QB. But the amount of derision being heaped on him is over the top; and Banks and Papa were right about that.
THIS ^^^^ Reading BBI is a discouraging pursuit lately. Yes the team has been bad, but the vitriol here is way beyond any semblance of constructive criticism.
Jones is a very bad QB. Please refer to his 2023 where he put up last in the league QB starter stats. Sorry, good QBs don't get outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
It's like you simply don't understand anything that you read.
Your post here fails to address his point, in fact, it illustrates it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is not an elite QB. Picking him at 6
Jones is a very bad QB. Please refer to his 2023 where he put up last in the league QB starter stats. Sorry, good QBs don't get outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
It's like you simply don't understand anything that you read.
Your post here fails to address his point, in fact, it illustrates it.
I think you have the reading comprehension problem. I am responding directly to the comment that Jones isn't a terrible player.
In fact there is overwhelming data to suggest he is terrible. He couldn't outplay Tommy DeVito for chrissakes. This eval is at the core of the dispute. But please, continue to snarkily miss the point.
That was a sea of dumb comments. Nobody is rooting for Daniel Jones to fail...they are expecting it. And they are expecting it not because they hate him, hate the Giants, or hate sunshine and rainbows. They expect him to fail because it is what he has done for most games he has been the starting QB for the NYG.
Stop pretending that Daniel Jones is some unknown commodity that nobody has yet seen film on. He has started over 60 NFL games! There is plenty of evidence of what Daniel Jones is and isn't. You wanting to say "2022 is evidence he is really good" and "everything else is no evidence at all" speaks to your bias, not your analytical abilities.
I just don’t get how people still don’t understand it. No one-as far as I know-is rooting for Jones to fail. I hope he goes out this fall & lights it up. I just don’t expect it.
It really is that simple.
RE: RE: RE: Jones is not an elite QB. Picking him at 6
was dumb on many levels, not the least of which is that it raised expectations to a point that he's not capable of living up to. But, in football the QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Add in that Jones has had an awful OL every year and a really bad receiving corps every year, which made it nearly impossible for him to succeed, and it's clear that his lack of success isn't all on him. He's not a terrible player. He could have a very good year this year. He's not the long-term answer for the NYG at QB, they can and should look for a better QB. But the amount of derision being heaped on him is over the top; and Banks and Papa were right about that.
THIS ^^^^ Reading BBI is a discouraging pursuit lately. Yes the team has been bad, but the vitriol here is way beyond any semblance of constructive criticism.
Jones is a very bad QB. Please refer to his 2023 where he put up last in the league QB starter stats. Sorry, good QBs don't get outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
I don't think that many are arguing that DJ is a good QB. Your point is well taken but it is not one of the pure hatred posts I'm referring to ... hence the word "vitriol" They go beyond factual criticism of his play or stats, they sound as if they genuinely hate him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is not an elite QB. Picking him at 6
I don't think that many are arguing that DJ is a good QB. Your point is well taken but it is not one of the pure hatred posts I'm referring to ... hence the word "vitriol" They go beyond factual criticism of his play or stats, they sound as if they genuinely hate him.
I really haven't seen much unhinged vitriol of the sort you are describing. It's possible I am not seeing it or recognizing it. I don't know. Look, for many people life is not easy. And for some, football is an escape, and for a subset they don't want to hear people disparage their favorite players, people they invested a lot of time and emotion into. I get it. And for others, they don't want to see their favorite team waste time and season after season with excuses and inadequate players. I understand both sides even though I am in the latter camp.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is not an elite QB. Picking him at 6
was dumb on many levels, not the least of which is that it raised expectations to a point that he's not capable of living up to. But, in football the QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Add in that Jones has had an awful OL every year and a really bad receiving corps every year, which made it nearly impossible for him to succeed, and it's clear that his lack of success isn't all on him. He's not a terrible player. He could have a very good year this year. He's not the long-term answer for the NYG at QB, they can and should look for a better QB. But the amount of derision being heaped on him is over the top; and Banks and Papa were right about that.
THIS ^^^^ Reading BBI is a discouraging pursuit lately. Yes the team has been bad, but the vitriol here is way beyond any semblance of constructive criticism.
Jones is a very bad QB. Please refer to his 2023 where he put up last in the league QB starter stats. Sorry, good QBs don't get outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
I don't think that many are arguing that DJ is a good QB. Your point is well taken but it is not one of the pure hatred posts I'm referring to ... hence the word "vitriol" They go beyond factual criticism of his play or stats, they sound as if they genuinely hate him.
Just stop. At what point do you realize that saying “they genuinely hate him” sounds like you’re an overly sensitive child? How many times do people have to say NOBODY HATES DANIEL JONES? Jeezus, man. Nobody on this site has even met the guy. But from all accounts he’s a swell guy that you’d like your daughter to date. And THAT is what guys like yourself use to drive your desire to pretend that he’s something that he’s not as a QB. Every single opinion of Daniel Jones on this site is 100% related to how he plays the QB position. Grow up and stop claiming everyone hates Daniel Jones. You sound stupid
I just don’t get how people still don’t understand it. No one-as far as I know-is rooting for Jones to fail. I hope he goes out this fall & lights it up. I just don’t expect it.
It really is that simple.
Some people cannot separate analysis from rooting. Or let their rooting heavily color their analysis (homers).
I'm looking forward to this season less than any I can remember. I can't wait for this to be put to bed either way. I have pretty strong feelings about which way that will turn out, but I guess we'll see.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is not an elite QB. Picking him at 6
was dumb on many levels, not the least of which is that it raised expectations to a point that he's not capable of living up to. But, in football the QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Add in that Jones has had an awful OL every year and a really bad receiving corps every year, which made it nearly impossible for him to succeed, and it's clear that his lack of success isn't all on him. He's not a terrible player. He could have a very good year this year. He's not the long-term answer for the NYG at QB, they can and should look for a better QB. But the amount of derision being heaped on him is over the top; and Banks and Papa were right about that.
THIS ^^^^ Reading BBI is a discouraging pursuit lately. Yes the team has been bad, but the vitriol here is way beyond any semblance of constructive criticism.
Jones is a very bad QB. Please refer to his 2023 where he put up last in the league QB starter stats. Sorry, good QBs don't get outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
I don't think that many are arguing that DJ is a good QB. Your point is well taken but it is not one of the pure hatred posts I'm referring to ... hence the word "vitriol" They go beyond factual criticism of his play or stats, they sound as if they genuinely hate him.
Just stop. At what point do you realize that saying “they genuinely hate him” sounds like you’re an overly sensitive child? How many times do people have to say NOBODY HATES DANIEL JONES? Jeezus, man. Nobody on this site has even met the guy. But from all accounts he’s a swell guy that you’d like your daughter to date. And THAT is what guys like yourself use to drive your desire to pretend that he’s something that he’s not as a QB. Every single opinion of Daniel Jones on this site is 100% related to how he plays the QB position. Grow up and stop claiming everyone hates Daniel Jones. You sound stupid
Ok, I pretend he's something that he's not? Show me where I praised or defended his play, not just on this thread or anywhere. And yes, of course it's all related to how he plays the QB position, but some here seem to hate him for the way he plays QB instead of just criticizing the play. And in no case or no way did I say that EVERYONE hates him. Oh, and I'm stupid? Grow up.
I just don’t get how people still don’t understand it. No one-as far as I know-is rooting for Jones to fail. I hope he goes out this fall & lights it up. I just don’t expect it.
It really is that simple.
It's fine to think this. What's the point of bothering anymore for you or anyone to keep saying it before you see it? There are half a dozen posts right above this one of yours in which people seem to believe the 2024 season is over already and Jones had failed. They virtually state it as a fact because the way they read his stats (selectively) tells them that. They can claim to be fans but I suspect that fans of other teams might be puzzled to be exposed to this sort of rationalization.
because both guys work for the Giants. They have taken the place of Pat Hanlon at this point.
John Mara and the Giants are selling hope and optimism to the fans every off season. It does not end with the marketing department. The people who have a public voice are given scripts.
Again, I don’t think this stuff is complicated: a lot of people don’t think he’s a good QB & thus have little enthusiasm for this coming season because we have a strong feeling on how it’s going to play out.
And a lot of people are sick of wishing and hoping that he is suddenly going to be something he’s never shown to be.
People are just sick and tired of this organization’s incompetence. And then we have to hear from people like Banks-whose Twitter account I checked out earlier and hey Carl…what an embarrassment-tell us we are ‘goofy’ for questioning WTF is going on.
In comment 16522483 BronxBob said:
[quote] In comment 16522455 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I just don’t get how people still don’t understand it. No one-as far as I know-is rooting for Jones to fail. I hope he goes out this fall & lights it up. I just don’t expect it.
It really is that simple.
It's fine to think this. What's the point of bothering anymore for you or anyone to keep saying it before you see it? There are half a dozen posts right above this one of yours in which people seem to believe the 2024 season is over already and Jones had failed. They virtually state it as a fact because the way they read his stats (selectively) tells them that. They can claim to be fans but I suspect that fans of other teams might be puzzled to be exposed to this sort of rationalization. [/quote
Ask fans of other teams about Daniel Jones and tell them you think he's good if you want to see puzzlement.
I hope he's the best QB in the league next year. I'm not holding my breath.
I am finally listening to this podcast. I am a little over ten minutes in. So far, unless you are rooting for Daniel Jones to fail, then you are not the ones being addressed. If a fan is rooting for one of their own players to fail then the content so far seems appropriate. For the record, I absolutely think there are fans everywhere of all different teams that actively root against players on their teams they don't like for whatever reason.
I am finally listening to this podcast. I am a little over ten minutes in. So far, unless you are rooting for Daniel Jones to fail, then you are not the ones being addressed. If a fan is rooting for one of their own players to fail then the content so far seems appropriate. For the record, I absolutely think there are fans everywhere of all different teams that actively root against players on their teams they don't like for whatever reason.
I agree that this phenomenon does occur. However, on BBI, I think the overwhelming majority of Jones critics want him to succeed. I know I do.
I am finally listening to this podcast. I am a little over ten minutes in. So far, unless you are rooting for Daniel Jones to fail, then you are not the ones being addressed. If a fan is rooting for one of their own players to fail then the content so far seems appropriate. For the record, I absolutely think there are fans everywhere of all different teams that actively root against players on their teams they don't like for whatever reason.
A narcissist would cheer for failure if that supported the view they have. There are plenty of them out there.
If we see a car get hit by a train off a cliff and into a volcano we're all going to be cheering for everyone inside to be ok. It doesn't make you negative or a narcissist to think that they might not be.
I'm rooting for Eric Gray to be twenty times better than Barry Sanders. What kind of narcissist must you be to think that can't happen?!
To me, success for a 6th year, $46M QB is playing like top 10 QB. Not limited offense. Not game managing. Putting up points and yards by making real NFL throws all over the field. If Jones plays like a Joe Burrow or a Dak Prescott, that is a success.
Unfortunately, I suspect the Giants and many fans have a much lower bar. I think if Jones does his 200 yards, 1 TD, less than 1 INT per game with his very limited set of throws and the Giants win 7, 8, or 9 games - then that will be viewed as success. And he will keep the job as long as he does it.
I do not want that. Scenario A - Jones is a legit good NFL QB is good. I would certainly have to eat some crow if that happened.
But I would rather see Scenario C - Jones falls flat on his face, than Scenario B - Jones is an adequate game manager. Because I think Scenario give the Giants a chance to be really good at some point. Scenario B gives us a Saints/Raiders type of existence for the next few years. I do not want that.
If we see a car get hit by a train off a cliff and into a volcano we're all going to be cheering for everyone inside to be ok. It doesn't make you negative or a narcissist to think that they might not be.
I'm rooting for Eric Gray to be twenty times better than Barry Sanders. What kind of narcissist must you be to think that can't happen?!
I wasn't calling you a narcissist. There are definitely people that rather see Jones fail then their opinions be proven wrong though.
My point was that Papa and Banks did not seem to be talking about all Giants fans or even most Giants fans. Carl Banks talked about a 'sector' of fans that seemingly want Jones to fail, so unless you want that, I don't think they were talking about you.
I meant that I don't agree that no one wants Jones to fail. Anyway, Papa and Banks were taking a lot of heat on this thread and I don't think they were addressing most Giants fans.
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Interesting that you bring up Eli. I believe it has been shown that Eli really wasn't in decline in his later years. Indeed, in 2018, his last as a full-time starter he completed 66% of his passes (best of his career) for 4,300 yards and 21 TDs versus 11 picks with a 92.4 QB rating. Both the yards and ratings were the 4th best of his career. What makes it interesting is that Eli's best years were 2011 when he had Nicks and Cruz both operating on all cylinders and 2014-15 when he had Odell at full speed.
And it was not like there were 'some' fans that were willing to excuse Eli for the losing it was actually just about every fan who for a decade screamed 'the Giants ruined the back end of his career because of the horrible OL!' Interesting that so same fans now absolutely refuse to concede in any way or shape that playing behind what was in fact an historically bad OL last year might have crimped Jones' play. Just sayin'! (And please don't come back with the old 'he was outplayed by Danny DeVito because the latter did have a significantly different and better OL to work with (not to mention a better receiving corps.)
If you're interested in the Giants becoming a true contender at some point, rooting for Jones to fail fast rather than reach his ceiling of low-level NFL starter makes sense.
This is why my criticism isn't about Jones, but about Mara. The Giants aren't objective actors - they want to be proven right on Jones and are looking for any excuse to reward even a mediocre performance (like they did in 2022).
The Giants are very poorly run, and as fans we are stuck hoping that things outside their control save them from their own ineptitude.
Well, I think that probably solves it. They should bring back Manning.
Missed the point Christian. Or get some better receivers because Eli wasn't necessarily all that good when he didn't have them. Also remember that in his last two years plus with this team the Giants were 9-26! But yes eff Jones for that awful record his first 2-3 years.
I'd much rather Jones fail than show just enough to keep stretching out the indecision.
I have zero problem saying that and defending that view as a fan.
I think a strong outcome is this regime having the courage to move off of Jones after a season which showed progress. A gritty 8-9 season where the roster looks good but the QB shows limitations.
Schoen cuts Jones and they are in the QB market in 2025 with a roster which is viewed much better than it is today.
I don't disagree with your premise in your bad outcomes thread. But, I really like Daboll. I think there is much more potential that the Giants have a strong HC rather than a strong QB. I also think finding viable head coaches in this league is very hard.
Not every decision Schoen & Daboll have made has been poor, they've had misses, but I don't think they are incompetent. I believe the QB decision is complex and goes beyond Schoen & Daboll although they share their piece of blame.
I totally understand the skepticism that NYG would move off Jones off an 8-9 season, but the contract *does* allow for it. Going 8-9 and putting Kirk Cousins in this offense with Daboll & the WR group. That is the best outcome imo over a full reset.
this is the answer to Bob Papa and Carl Banks and anyone who tells any Giant fan they're "a bad fan" or "goofy" because they don't want to see another season of Daniel Jones as the Giants unchallenged QB1.
Quote:
Go Terps : 3:29 pm : link : reply
If you're interested in the Giants becoming a true contender at some point, rooting for Jones to fail fast rather than reach his ceiling of low-level NFL starter makes sense.
This is why my criticism isn't about Jones, but about Mara. The Giants aren't objective actors - they want to be proven right on Jones and are looking for any excuse to reward even a mediocre performance (like they did in 2022).
The Giants are very poorly run, and as fans we are stuck hoping that things outside their control save them from their own ineptitude.
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Interesting that you bring up Eli. I believe it has been shown that Eli really wasn't in decline in his later years. Indeed, in 2018, his last as a full-time starter he completed 66% of his passes (best of his career) for 4,300 yards and 21 TDs versus 11 picks with a 92.4 QB rating. Both the yards and ratings were the 4th best of his career. What makes it interesting is that Eli's best years were 2011 when he had Nicks and Cruz both operating on all cylinders and 2014-15 when he had Odell at full speed.
And it was not like there were 'some' fans that were willing to excuse Eli for the losing it was actually just about every fan who for a decade screamed 'the Giants ruined the back end of his career because of the horrible OL!' Interesting that so same fans now absolutely refuse to concede in any way or shape that playing behind what was in fact an historically bad OL last year might have crimped Jones' play. Just sayin'! (And please don't come back with the old 'he was outplayed by Danny DeVito because the latter did have a significantly different and better OL to work with (not to mention a better receiving corps.)
It actually isn't that interesting.
Eli was in noticeable decline as the 2016 season went along, and began to lose all patience of sitting in the pocket and taking hits in the couple of seasons that followed. He wasn't lifting up that team any longer with his arm and comeback ability from his earlier days. Watch the games.
I can't believe I'm saying this again. I won't believe Jones isn't their plan until he's off the roster.
Assuming he doesn't blow out his ACL again, on March 4th, 2025 they will have to decide if Jones is worth 1/30M. That's cap adjusted pretty close to what his 5th year option was.
is pretty simple. You're fans who don't know a thing about football, shut up and drink the Mara-aid because you're hurting the owners feelings and his pet player's feelings.
I can't believe I'm saying this again. I won't believe Jones isn't their plan until he's off the roster.
Assuming he doesn't blow out his ACL again, on March 4th, 2025 they will have to decide if Jones is worth 1/30M. That's cap adjusted pretty close to what his 5th year option was.
They're not getting ride of Jones unless stinks.
It is incredible that this is still a thing with the Giants. I can't think of a comparable situation.
is pretty simple. You're fans who don't know a thing about football, shut up and drink the Mara-aid because you're hurting the owners feelings and his pet player's feelings.
Banks specifically said a 'sector' of fans seemingly that want Jones to fail.
RE: RE: RE: And there are people who care more about Jones
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
he's wrong. No there is not. There is a very large percentage of Giants fans who want him replaced. That's accurate. He's already failed. That's the issue.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And there are people who care more about Jones
Eli was in noticeable decline as the 2016 season went along.
The Giants were 9-2 down the stretch in 2016 on the way to the playoffs and if you could see that Eli was in noticeable decline you should be working in the NFL because nobody else saw it and it only became part of the BBI narrative later.
he's wrong. No there is not. There is a very large percentage of Giants fans who want him replaced. That's accurate. He's already failed. That's the issue.
He certainly could be wrong. But to change what he said seems a bit disingenuous. I don't think Banks and Papa are lumping all Giants fans that want Jones replaced as that 'sector' of fans.
And we have had a lot of them outside the QB position.
That’s why I’m not opposed to building a team and then getting the QB. Jones isn’t good but he’s not the reason why we have sucked for a decade. He’s been part of the problem.
But the main problem is finding a number of good players.
I think Banks and Papa are saying what they're told to say
I think they're trying to put a shine on what is looking like a bleak upcoming season.
If people want to root against Daniel Jones that's their right. No one involved with the organization deserves any grace or benefit of the doubt.
If Banks and Papa want to be taken seriously they could try asking why the Giants are 67-111-1 in the last 11 seasons. Otherwise they're just doing a commercial for why fans should but tickets in 2024.
RE: I think Banks and Papa are saying what they're told to say
I think they're trying to put a shine on what is looking like a bleak upcoming season.
If people want to root against Daniel Jones that's their right. No one involved with the organization deserves any grace or benefit of the doubt.
If Banks and Papa want to be taken seriously they could try asking why the Giants are 67-111-1 in the last 11 seasons. Otherwise they're just doing a commercial for why fans should but tickets in 2024.
Perhaps they are saying what they are supposed to say in other podcasts, but I don't think this one applies. It certainly is the right of the fan to root how they want, absolutely. Similar to fans that want the Giants to succeed because of Jones not in spite of him.
We all want the Giants to succeed because of Jones
Eli was in noticeable decline as the 2016 season went along.
The Giants were 9-2 down the stretch in 2016 on the way to the playoffs and if you could see that Eli was in noticeable decline you should be working in the NFL because nobody else saw it and it only became part of the BBI narrative later.
Appreciate the compliment, but it actually wasn't something that any relatively astute fan that couldn't see. At least ones that loved and respected Eli for his accomplishments but still understood the overall scope of his career.
The 2016 NY Giants actually rode a Defense that was playing out of it's mind as the year went along, helped by the occasional 9-yard slant pass to OBJ who took it the distance. At whatever point in the game the Giants got a tiny lead, Eli went into conservative-mode with the offense and they hung on to win a ton of 1-score games. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but keep things in perspective as to how those games shook out.
RE: We all want the Giants to succeed because of Jones
If Azeez Ojulari stays healthy this year and has 10 sacks, and has a nice game in the playoffs, are the Giants going to make him the 7th highest paid pass rusher in the NFL?
RE: RE: RE: RE: And there are people who care more about Jones
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
I never intimated solely. Not a productive question to respond to anyway.
If Azeez Ojulari stays healthy this year and has 10 sacks, and has a nice game in the playoffs, are the Giants going to make him the 7th highest paid pass rusher in the NFL?
Depends if his next game in the playoffs is a dud ;)
RE: We all want the Giants to succeed because of Jones
I want him to throw for 5000 yards and 45 TDs and lead the Giants to a title.
I also want Tomon Fox to be the next Lawrence Taylor. And I want Eric Gray to be the next Barry Sanders.
Are we going to live in reality or in fantasy land?
I am a little confused how my post gets us to 'fantasy land'. Perhaps I failed to be clear what I meant. I meant fans that would want the Giants to succeed solely because of Jones because his valued higher than the Giants as a comparison to those who may want Jones to fail in regard to fans being able to root the way they want.
- We made improvements - all the haters just don't see it
- Uh oh...the OL sucks vs. Daniel Jones sucks
- Rooting for wins vs rooting for draft position
- No sure fire franchise QBs in this draft
- Prove it season for Daniel Jones
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And there are people who care more about Jones
Eli was in noticeable decline as the 2016 season went along.
The Giants were 9-2 down the stretch in 2016 on the way to the playoffs and if you could see that Eli was in noticeable decline you should be working in the NFL because nobody else saw it and it only became part of the BBI narrative later.
Appreciate the compliment, but it actually wasn't something that any relatively astute fan that couldn't see. At least ones that loved and respected Eli for his accomplishments but still understood the overall scope of his career.
The 2016 NY Giants actually rode a Defense that was playing out of it's mind as the year went along, helped by the occasional 9-yard slant pass to OBJ who took it the distance. At whatever point in the game the Giants got a tiny lead, Eli went into conservative-mode with the offense and they hung on to win a ton of 1-score games. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but keep things in perspective as to how those games shook out.
He was running Ben McAdoo's Mickey Mouse offense, which was geared to do one thing - get Odell open on a slant. A young Johnny Unitas would struggle to excel in that situation.
Eli was really good in 2015, I find it hard to believe that his play went south that quickly. Maybe it was running McAdoo's offense without TC to force McAdoo to implement the most basic NFL schemes.
In comment 16522483 BronxBob said:
[quote] In comment 16522455 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I just don’t get how people still don’t understand it. No one-as far as I know-is rooting for Jones to fail. I hope he goes out this fall & lights it up. I just don’t expect it.
It really is that simple.
It's fine to think this. What's the point of bothering anymore for you or anyone to keep saying it before you see it? There are half a dozen posts right above this one of yours in which people seem to believe the 2024 season is over already and Jones had failed. They virtually state it as a fact because the way they read his stats (selectively) tells them that. They can claim to be fans but I suspect that fans of other teams might be puzzled to be exposed to this sort of rationalization. [/quote
Ask fans of other teams about Daniel Jones and tell them you think he's good if you want to see puzzlement.
I hope he's the best QB in the league next year. I'm not holding my breath.
Noter re what other teams' fans might think of Daniel Jones, but that's not connected to the specific point I wanted to make. I was addressing the subject of the video and the question it raised of who's a "fan" or not based on the amount and nature of their public criticism of a player or management or ownership. I was just wondering what fans of other teams would make of the discussions here and in other social media. I do see that someone disagreed and felt that similarly intense discussions happen among other teams' fans. I suppose now that's probably true.
With regard to Jones, I don't think anyone can argue with hearing someone say this a few times: "I hope he's the best QB in the league next year. I'm not holding my breath." But it seems to me that for some folks here it took being challenged about whether they really are a fan or not to dial back to just that level of critique. And the way I see it, when someone can't resist publicly criticizing a player over and over again, in ongoing discussions, but then claims they can root for their personal analysis and expectations to be proven wrong by that player, that is probably just be after the fact rationalization.
I don't think one has to be a narcissist (suggested elsewhere) to prefer being proven correct rather than watching someone else's success trash their analysis. That's just human nature.
and they know what they have in Jones. If he has a merely above average season, they will know he's not the answer. If he absolutely lights it up, that might change the calculus.
Anyway, that's why I'm rooting for DJ this year. I do not think he will have an above average season, though. I think he is generally not a good starter. I think he will make a very good backup QB, though.
threw for 4,000 yards and 26 TD's, things Jones has never done. So if that is Eli being washed, what does it say about Jones?
Youre comparing a mercedes M class to a Kia.
Theyre not similar. No similar talent, no similar performances, no similar accomplishments. The only connecting line is they play the same position and have similar mannerisms.
But fans have been doing this for years: "eli struggled early on too".
Theyre not the same. Jones is wildly less talented at playing QB and always was.
If Azeez Ojulari stays healthy this year and has 10 sacks, and has a nice game in the playoffs, are the Giants going to make him the 7th highest paid pass rusher in the NFL?
Maybe? There is actually a timing aspect to negotiating a deal with a player, along with what the FO/Staff think his actual (healthy) ceiling is for their plans.
If Azeez Ojulari stays healthy this year and has 10 sacks, and has a nice game in the playoffs, are the Giants going to make him the 7th highest paid pass rusher in the NFL?
Maybe? There is actually a timing aspect to negotiating a deal with a player, along with what the FO/Staff think his actual (healthy) ceiling is for their plans.
OK let's put it this way. If Ojulari stays healthy this year, and has a good not great season, would you want the Giants to sign him to a 4/100M deal?
If Azeez Ojulari stays healthy this year and has 10 sacks, and has a nice game in the playoffs, are the Giants going to make him the 7th highest paid pass rusher in the NFL?
Maybe? There is actually a timing aspect to negotiating a deal with a player, along with what the FO/Staff think his actual (healthy) ceiling is for their plans.
OK let's put it this way. If Ojulari stays healthy this year, and has a good not great season, would you want the Giants to sign him to a 4/100M deal?
I wouldn't care what they signed him for, because he is obviously high in the plans for the people running the team.
If Azeez Ojulari stays healthy this year and has 10 sacks, and has a nice game in the playoffs, are the Giants going to make him the 7th highest paid pass rusher in the NFL?
Maybe? There is actually a timing aspect to negotiating a deal with a player, along with what the FO/Staff think his actual (healthy) ceiling is for their plans.
Ojulari needs to play at least a month in the regular season without showing up on the weekly injury list before anybody should care about too much about him.
Then perform at a higher level vs run and pass before anybody should call his agent with a limited floor-level offer.
And then finish the season strong before agreeing to a final deal.
My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
He’s will not trend to anything that matters until he stays off the injury list.
Not even close to being reievant. Hope that changes but not expecting much.
My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
Well if you are referring to me I'll accept whatever IS. I'll reiterate for the 80 billionth time I don't give a half shit who is taking snaps from center. I want the Giants to build a competitive ROSTER. R-O-S-T-E-R. Especially along the OL and DL. The fact is DJ has had moments with a shit cast of OL and WR (especially OL, ESPECIALLY last year) where he looks good. I am not willing to completely give up on him yet, which is a completely different opinion here than all the people that "know" he sucks. It's that simple.
The point isn't Ojulari. Substitute any player with an uneven track record, and an average performance in their contract year.
This type of player isn't typically signed to a mega deal. And in the unlikely event a team makes that mistake, they don't typically attack their fan base for being upset.
The point isn't Ojulari. Substitute any player with an uneven track record, and an average performance in their contract year.
This type of player isn't typically signed to a mega deal. And in the unlikely event a team makes that mistake, they don't typically attack their fan base for being upset.
And my point is that QB is a unique position such that the market is fundamentally different. And neither fans nor franchises typically get so bent out of shape about this with other positions. Kenny Golladay got a huge contract, he sucked, and we cut him. It happens. The emotions here are incredibly high in part because it's a QB. Some of the irrational Jones love/defense, however, I really just don't understand and probably never will.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And there are people who care more about Jones
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
I never intimated solely. Not a productive question to respond to anyway.
Stating that "fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing" does intimate that you might have felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. So I asked. I regret if it bothers you that I addressed your statement as a stand-alone comment and not in the context of the existing discussion. I appreciate Snorkels making it clear that you overstated the effect of Eli's "decline" by attempting to swipe away the viability of allowing for other factors.
So we supposedly have fans who want Jones to succeed more than they want the team to ... and other fans who feel success by Jones can only signal ongoing mediocrity at best for the team. Personally, I find it more tolerable, this time of year, to listen to the optimists. It only seems to take one or two DJ supporters to bring out a boatload of DJ critics (not that I'm carefully counting). I'm in the middle; I can wait and see what happens from this September into next January -- without then projecting what the effect of that will be farther down the road. It reminds me of my friend who came in to work in late January 1987 all worried about how winning the Super Bowl was likely to make things tough going forward. Thankfully, my emotional welfare doesn't require that the Giants be a perennial winner as long as they can be a fairly regular one.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And there are people who care more about Jones
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
I never intimated solely. Not a productive question to respond to anyway.
Stating that "fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing" does intimate that you might have felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. So I asked. I regret if it bothers you that I addressed your statement as a stand-alone comment and not in the context of the existing discussion. I appreciate Snorkels making it clear that you overstated the effect of Eli's "decline" by attempting to swipe away the viability of allowing for other factors.
So we supposedly have fans who want Jones to succeed more than they want the team to ... and other fans who feel success by Jones can only signal ongoing mediocrity at best for the team. Personally, I find it more tolerable, this time of year, to listen to the optimists. It only seems to take one or two DJ supporters to bring out a boatload of DJ critics (not that I'm carefully counting). I'm in the middle; I can wait and see what happens from this September into next January -- without then projecting what the effect of that will be farther down the road. It reminds me of my friend who came in to work in late January 1987 all worried about how winning the Super Bowl was likely to make things tough going forward. Thankfully, my emotional welfare doesn't require that the Giants be a perennial winner as long as they can be a fairly regular one.
My comment most certainly does not intimate that I felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. Nor do I think that way.
I also didn't overstate Eli's decline whether you and Snork think so doesn't follow the . Eli's decline was begun to be noticed in 2016 and dragged on for several painful years, mostly because of the inaction of several in the organization. In fact, as a big fan of Eli's, it was sad to watch while the franchise did basically nothing to address the QB situation until is was so late that they became desperate and panicked themselves into a poorly thought-out DJ decision in 2019. That was just after a poorly-thought out decision to put Gettleman in as GM.
And go right ahead and listen to the optimists, hang out in the middle and play the wait-and-see game. It is your right as a fan. The guys running this franchise probably love that based on what the little they have been able to produce on the field for the past decade plus.
Lastly, referring to the NY Giants a fairly regular winner made my afternoon. Keep that type of comedy coming!
The point isn't Ojulari. Substitute any player with an uneven track record, and an average performance in their contract year.
This type of player isn't typically signed to a mega deal. And in the unlikely event a team makes that mistake, they don't typically attack their fan base for being upset.
And my point is that QB is a unique position such that the market is fundamentally different. And neither fans nor franchises typically get so bent out of shape about this with other positions. Kenny Golladay got a huge contract, he sucked, and we cut him. It happens. The emotions here are incredibly high in part because it's a QB. Some of the irrational Jones love/defense, however, I really just don't understand and probably never will.
I think the emotions are high because Jones was never the QB equivalent of what Golladay the WR was. At least Golladay had a couple of really standout years.
The point isn't Ojulari. Substitute any player with an uneven track record, and an average performance in their contract year.
This type of player isn't typically signed to a mega deal. And in the unlikely event a team makes that mistake, they don't typically attack their fan base for being upset.
And my point is that QB is a unique position such that the market is fundamentally different. And neither fans nor franchises typically get so bent out of shape about this with other positions. Kenny Golladay got a huge contract, he sucked, and we cut him. It happens. The emotions here are incredibly high in part because it's a QB. Some of the irrational Jones love/defense, however, I really just don't understand and probably never will.
I think the emotions are high because Jones was never the QB equivalent of what Golladay the WR was. At least Golladay had a couple of really standout years.
I agree with your analysis of Jones' play. But I don't think it's just that. I've never seen anything like this in my years following NY sports. Maybe I'm not old enough, IDK.
My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
That’s your problem if you care about what others think. Some of you people feel everyone has to agree with your opinion . Doesn’t work that way. You must be in your twenties.
In comment 16523657 Mike from SI said: Quote: The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
Just maybe the 'real problem is that Daniel Jones has some tools and the potential to be at least a halfway decent NFL QB if given some talent to work with, but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it'
In comment 16523657 Mike from SI said: Quote: The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
Just maybe the 'real problem is that Daniel Jones has some tools and the potential to be at least a halfway decent NFL QB if given some talent to work with, but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it'
With the NFLs 6th highest cap hit at the position, I’d expect more than “halfway decent”.
In comment 16523657 Mike from SI said: Quote: The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
Just maybe the 'real problem is that Daniel Jones has some tools and the potential to be at least a halfway decent NFL QB if given some talent to work with, but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it'
Quite the compliment. In year 6 you think maybe he has the potential to be halfway decent.
I am finally listening to this podcast. I am a little over ten minutes in. So far, unless you are rooting for Daniel Jones to fail, then you are not the ones being addressed. If a fan is rooting for one of their own players to fail then the content so far seems appropriate. For the record, I absolutely think there are fans everywhere of all different teams that actively root against players on their teams they don't like for whatever reason.
Yes, they are specifically talking about tools that would wish for a poor season or a “bad outcome” to get rid of Jones and or Schoen because he seems to back Jones, all because they think they are THAT good at QB evaluation.
Asshole, only description that fits.
The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
That’s your problem if you care about what others think. Some of you people feel everyone has to agree with your opinion . Doesn’t work that way. You must be in your twenties.
The entire focus of this thread is Papa & Banks commenting on what Giants fans are rooting for. In other words, this thread is explicitly about what others think. It doesn't affect my life in any way. But this is just an odd comment. And I'm not in my twenties although I wish I were.
I'm perfectly comfortable with my stance Jones is not good enough to warrant the investment or future energy and time spent.
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm perfectly comfortable with my stance Jones is not good enough to warrant the investment or future energy and time spent.
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
"Must be in your twenties" is funny since a lot us have been on BBI either over twenty years or near it.
Some of us haven't even needed a new handle, imagine that?
I'm perfectly comfortable with my stance Jones is not good enough to warrant the investment or future energy and time spent.
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
"Must be in your twenties" is funny since a lot us have been on BBI either over twenty years or near it.
Some of us haven't even needed a new handle, imagine that?
Yup. I've been a daily user of BBI since I was 18 years olds. And I frequented the site before that, when I was in high school.
I've had the same handle and the same mediocre contributions for 25 years!
RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
RE: RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
I'm perfectly comfortable with my stance Jones is not good enough to warrant the investment or future energy and time spent.
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
Yes, apparently your age has given you enough wisdom to provide such analysis.
While I generally agree with your position, I do think the QB thing is part of what is driving the hysteria.
It's far and away the most important factor to success. When a team doesn't have a QB, as the Giants don't, you can make the case that every other conversation is moot.
RE: it is not possible for the QB conversation to be outsized
It's far and away the most important factor to success. When a team doesn't have a QB, as the Giants don't, you can make the case that every other conversation is moot.
Re-read what I posted.
RE: RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Plenty of fans started off with the reasonable take, but were continually excoriated, bullied, and told how crappy of fans they were for not believing Daniel Jones was the answer. Yet those who still believe in Jones wonder why those who don't have such extreme takes after 5 years.
RE: RE: it is not possible for the QB conversation to be outsized
It's far and away the most important factor to success. When a team doesn't have a QB, as the Giants don't, you can make the case that every other conversation is moot.
Re-read what I posted.
I don't have any disagreement with you, either in this thread or pretty much anything else you have posted. I just pulled this one idea out, because it does get repeated on occasion. The idea is that Jones gets picked on because he's the quarterback, and there are 21 other starters and 56 players, blah blah. And believe me I know you agree with me. Or you are close to what I am about to say.
I don't have the mathematical background to show how important QB is relative to the entire defense, or to the rest of the offense, or to the other 21 starters. This is why I mention Vegas so often when talking about this, because that is a 15 billion dollar industry that has given a number (in points) to the value of positions. But my instinct tells me the QB is worth more than the entire defense - assuming the defense has some bad players which negates some of the value of good players. And he is probably worth as much or more than the rest of the offense.
So I am just picking out this point and saying in general, when you don't have a quarterback, there is no amount of conversation that is outsized. It's the whole enchilada. In terms of Super Bowl aspirations, the 2024 Giants season is already over. Sure there will be thrills and lots to talk about, and maybe some good surprises. But we're not a SB contender, so ultimately this season is done before it has begun.
Arguing about how fans should argue about the argument of whether
right now...they've got one of the hardest gigs in sports.
Being employed by a team that sucks and having to try and remain positive is not easy.
Kill em all you want - but they are in a tough spot.
The "having to try and remain positive" is a Mara mandate, not a universal job responsibility. These guys could absolutely take a more balanced position if they were so inclined, and furthermore, they could also dish out criticism/excuses a bit more evenly.
Every single member of NYG State Media are in the position they're in because they're shills by nature, not the other way around. They didn't learn to become shills when they arrived; they promised to do it in their job interview, just like Gettleman did with keeping Eli. This is who they are, just like this is who this entire loser organization is.
My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
It's not just "harder," it's absolutely impossible to find competent players when you refuse to even draft any prospect at all at that position for six years.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
We need better PRODUCERS from MANHATTAN. JINKIES!
That DEPends.
I went to well over 100 Yankee games that Reggie Jackson played in
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
I am confident you and I could agree pretty closely on what reasonable criticism of a player is. My intent was not to say who can say what is reasonable.
People absolutely get to say what they want, I never said any different and as far as I know neither did Papa nor Banks. I also am not arguing nor comparing the treatment of Daniel Jones vs other athletes.
Where is the line? To me, at the minimum leave out personal attacks of a player when critiquing their game. I would say if a fan wants Jones to fail just because they don't like him then they have crossed the line of taking it personal. I can see a difference from a pov of a fan hoping that if Jones fails this year, he fails enough for it to be an easy decision for the Giants to move on. You certainly do not have to believe these fans exist.
I think you are off base with your assumption that I think I am a judge of who can say what. I never said what you or anyone else can say. I posted on this thread because I saw this podcast differently than most. I did not see Papa and Banks criticizing all or even most Giants fans.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Plenty of fans started off with the reasonable take, but were continually excoriated, bullied, and told how crappy of fans they were for not believing Daniel Jones was the answer. Yet those who still believe in Jones wonder why those who don't have such extreme takes after 5 years.
I don't think it is good for any fans to behave the way you described above. I also don't think it is a good excuse to alter one's point of view from reasonable to unreasonable because of how they were treated by other fans.
There are def pro Jones fans that are unreasonable (my view of unreasonable to be clear) and aggressive with their takes towards other fans.
Many Jones discussions are simply tribes repeating the same thing over and over again.
RE: I went to well over 100 Yankee games that Reggie Jackson played in
Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Is there any credible corroboration that this actually happened?
I personally witnessed it and didn't bring a recorder with me, I was 12. It definitely happened. You are free to disbelieve my recollection. But it was "a fan", I shouldn't have said "fans". But if I heard it once it must have happened plenty of other times. I probably went to roughly 30 Yankee games in the 70s. There was a lot of bad behavior at Yankee Stadium in the 70s and Shea in the 80s.
There was a lot of bad behavior at Yankee Stadium in the 70s and Shea
I am confident you and I could agree pretty closely on what reasonable criticism of a player is. My intent was not to say who can say what is reasonable.
People absolutely get to say what they want, I never said any different and as far as I know neither did Papa nor Banks. I also am not arguing nor comparing the treatment of Daniel Jones vs other athletes.
Where is the line? To me, at the minimum leave out personal attacks of a player when critiquing their game. I would say if a fan wants Jones to fail just because they don't like him then they have crossed the line of taking it personal. I can see a difference from a pov of a fan hoping that if Jones fails this year, he fails enough for it to be an easy decision for the Giants to move on. You certainly do not have to believe these fans exist.
I think you are off base with your assumption that I think I am a judge of who can say what. I never said what you or anyone else can say. I posted on this thread because I saw this podcast differently than most. I did not see Papa and Banks criticizing all or even most Giants fans.
We probably agree on a lot of it. I don't like when people use unsavory and vitriolic language against other players or public figures. It creeps me out. and it happens on this board and all across social media plenty. I would prefer if people refrained from using highly insulting language.
And there is a lot of insulting language on this board directed at other posters, which I find juvenile, unnecessary, and depressing. I wonder why people feel so comfortable calling another poster a POS over a sports disagreement. Maybe because it is anonymous they feel it is somehow ok. But you see several posters who raise the volume to 11, when someone dares to say Jones is bad. Does that bother you? Because I think it is a bigger problem to flame a fellow poster with vitriol than to insult a 100 million dollar public figure.
RE: There was a lot of bad behavior at Yankee Stadium in the 70s and Shea
right now...they've got one of the hardest gigs in sports.
Being employed by a team that sucks and having to try and remain positive is not easy.
Kill em all you want - but they are in a tough spot.
The "having to try and remain positive" is a Mara mandate, not a universal job responsibility. These guys could absolutely take a more balanced position if they were so inclined, and furthermore, they could also dish out criticism/excuses a bit more evenly.
Every single member of NYG State Media are in the position they're in because they're shills by nature, not the other way around. They didn't learn to become shills when they arrived; they promised to do it in their job interview, just like Gettleman did with keeping Eli. This is who they are, just like this is who this entire loser organization is.
They may be shills. But I would bet that at various times they have said the OL is bad, the WRs are bad, the TEs are bad, the running game is bad, various parts of the D are bad. But there is one special guy who we can't say is bad.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The percentage of fans actively *rooting* for jones to fail
I am confident you and I could agree pretty closely on what reasonable criticism of a player is. My intent was not to say who can say what is reasonable.
People absolutely get to say what they want, I never said any different and as far as I know neither did Papa nor Banks. I also am not arguing nor comparing the treatment of Daniel Jones vs other athletes.
Where is the line? To me, at the minimum leave out personal attacks of a player when critiquing their game. I would say if a fan wants Jones to fail just because they don't like him then they have crossed the line of taking it personal. I can see a difference from a pov of a fan hoping that if Jones fails this year, he fails enough for it to be an easy decision for the Giants to move on. You certainly do not have to believe these fans exist.
I think you are off base with your assumption that I think I am a judge of who can say what. I never said what you or anyone else can say. I posted on this thread because I saw this podcast differently than most. I did not see Papa and Banks criticizing all or even most Giants fans.
We probably agree on a lot of it. I don't like when people use unsavory and vitriolic language against other players or public figures. It creeps me out. and it happens on this board and all across social media plenty. I would prefer if people refrained from using highly insulting language.
And there is a lot of insulting language on this board directed at other posters, which I find juvenile, unnecessary, and depressing. I wonder why people feel so comfortable calling another poster a POS over a sports disagreement. Maybe because it is anonymous they feel it is somehow ok. But you see several posters who raise the volume to 11, when someone dares to say Jones is bad. Does that bother you? Because I think it is a bigger problem to flame a fellow poster with vitriol than to insult a 100 million dollar public figure.
I honestly did not post on this thread because of how fans speak about Daniel Jones. I just thought some fans were being a bit unfair in regard to Banks and Papa.
I think you are right in some capacity regarding people having internet courage because of the anonymity.
I am not bothered as much about how other fans speak to each other as I am about how I speak to other fans or how they speak to me (I would like to care a lot less about how others speak to me, but life is a journey. :)
I disagree with the premise of ‘toxicity’ re. Jones. ‘Toxicity’ implies to me that it is personal. It isn’t. It is solely based on him as a QB.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistent. Engram never learned how to not volley the bally until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while DID Jones decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
I disagree with the premise of ‘toxicity’ re. Jones. ‘Toxicity’ implies to me that it is personal. It isn’t. It is solely based on him as a QB.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistently. Engram never learned how to not volley the ball until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while Jones DID decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
I disagree with the premise of ‘toxicity’ re. Jones. ‘Toxicity’ implies to me that it is personal. It isn’t. It is solely based on him as a QB.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistent. Engram never learned how to not volley the bally until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while DID Jones decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
"Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done." Well, you said it definitively, so it must be true!
I disagree with the premise of ‘toxicity’ re. Jones. ‘Toxicity’ implies to me that it is personal. It isn’t. It is solely based on him as a QB.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistently. Engram never learned how to not volley the ball until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while Jones DID decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
Or maybe give the supporting cast a competent QB and they'll catch TDs and block better
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
I never intimated solely. Not a productive question to respond to anyway.
Stating that "fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing" does intimate that you might have felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. So I asked. I regret if it bothers you that I addressed your statement as a stand-alone comment and not in the context of the existing discussion. I appreciate Snorkels making it clear that you overstated the effect of Eli's "decline" by attempting to swipe away the viability of allowing for other factors.
So we supposedly have fans who want Jones to succeed more than they want the team to ... and other fans who feel success by Jones can only signal ongoing mediocrity at best for the team. Personally, I find it more tolerable, this time of year, to listen to the optimists. It only seems to take one or two DJ supporters to bring out a boatload of DJ critics (not that I'm carefully counting). I'm in the middle; I can wait and see what happens from this September into next January -- without then projecting what the effect of that will be farther down the road. It reminds me of my friend who came in to work in late January 1987 all worried about how winning the Super Bowl was likely to make things tough going forward. Thankfully, my emotional welfare doesn't require that the Giants be a perennial winner as long as they can be a fairly regular one.
My comment most certainly does not intimate that I felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. Nor do I think that way.
I also didn't overstate Eli's decline whether you and Snork think so doesn't follow the . Eli's decline was begun to be noticed in 2016 and dragged on for several painful years, mostly because of the inaction of several in the organization. In fact, as a big fan of Eli's, it was sad to watch while the franchise did basically nothing to address the QB situation until is was so late that they became desperate and panicked themselves into a poorly thought-out DJ decision in 2019. That was just after a poorly-thought out decision to put Gettleman in as GM.
And go right ahead and listen to the optimists, hang out in the middle and play the wait-and-see game. It is your right as a fan. The guys running this franchise probably love that based on what the little they have been able to produce on the field for the past decade plus.
Lastly, referring to the NY Giants a fairly regular winner made my afternoon. Keep that type of comedy coming!
I recommend you seek help. Your views are likely to cause stress that could actually kill you. Best of luck to you.
Just post more Bob. That comedy would lighten up the stress
I can't speak to what you heard at Shea in the 1980s. I went to a few games a year there but not many.
But yes I called you liar about Yankee Stadium and Reggie. Maybe that's not fair. Maybe when you were 12 years old someone near you directed that at Reggie loudly enough for you to remember it. But it wasn't something that was ever reported or I've ever heard mentioned by anyone but you.
So if it happened, I'm sorry you had to hear that but as rough as the crowd was at Yankee Stadium in the 1970s I never personally heard or read about anything racial being directed at Reggie from Yankee fans.
RE: Just post more Bob. That comedy would lighten up the stress
I remember when Jones was drafted, he just didn't impress me as a 1st round QB. When he came in and had a great beginning, I was surprised and became convinced that he showed promise.
Then everything fell apart. Some of it was clearly his fault, but most of it was the team's. The team rose out of the ashes
in 2022 but couldn't sustain the momentum.
I wouldn't be surprised if that a positive year is coming, the question is can they keep it up. I honestly don't know, what I do know is that what ever happens the result is not all due to Dan Jones failures or success.
No one, repeat no one can get anything out of this guy
Whats more likely- every single coach we have hired for 5 years has been absolutely terrible or the Giants are forcing these coaches to put a round peg in a square hole?
No matter what system he has played in, who has coached him and who has played with him and at what level he has played it. He simply hasnt done anything but lose games, throw 200 yds or less a game, throw 1 TD per game and 6.8 ypa
2. There is no doubt to me once Jones is off the team the same people defending him now will be quick to blame him.
Name the team that the comms people aren't wearing rose colored glasses.
They are not throwing him under the bus, yet. They cannot afford to that before the season.
And its organization wide from owner on down
Joe Schoen said
“it's hard to go in and compete week in and week out if you don't have your best players. One of the guys was telling me the other day, going into the season, if you told me (tight end Darren) Waller, (tackle) Andrew Thomas, Saquon and Daniel would play less than 40 plays together, I wouldn't have been real excited about that, and that's the reality of how it played out.”
Im sure the other 49 guys on the roster feel just great hearing the GM say that.
This.
They’ve become company men with regards to Jones.
There’s a big grey area between pretending that’s good and being a toxic a-hole about it.
That said, we're past the Daniel Jones expiration date here. He has proven to be too injury prone and not consistent enough to be the Giants starting QB. For so many reasons I think the Seattle game last year was his last stand. A chance to basically stabilize (and to that point) save the young season and prove at least a little bit you are the right guy for the contract they gave you. It was a complete failure and a good QB wins that game at home against a good but not great Seattle team.
It's the Giants own fault this conversation is still taking place. Schoen was given a "get out of bad QB situation free" card with Jones's injuries providing them cover to move on at the position and all he did this offseason was replace Tyrod Taylor with Drew Lock. Truly mind-boggling.
On the positive side, it is possible we get the version of Jones the team was hoping for last year, which is one that can do what he showed in 2022 but taking a step forward with better talent around him. He has the physical ability as I think we saw a bit of in his rookie year and we also saw in training camp last year.
The later is a best case, and although I do think it is a possible outcome, we shouldn't confuse that with the idea that Jones is a long term answer. IN some sense I think people under estimate just how in a funk this team, especially the offense, was early on last year. Yes, that does happen in football --we saw it in Philly last year as an example (we beat them the last time this team was on the field, remember?). But while I do believe that is the case and thus am more open to a different outcome going forward than most are --we learned beyond a doubt that when adversity hits, especially the oline, Jones doesn't have it in him to step up. He curls into a shell.
So while I am far from sharing the view that this 2024 season is lost --contrary, I believe we will likely compete. But in terms of building a contender, we're still missing that most critical piece, which I think is an obvious statement.
That said, we're past the Daniel Jones expiration date here. He has proven to be too injury prone and not consistent enough to be the Giants starting QB. For so many reasons I think the Seattle game last year was his last stand. A chance to basically stabilize (and to that point) save the young season and prove at least a little bit you are the right guy for the contract they gave you. It was a complete failure and a good QB wins that game at home against a good but not great Seattle team.
It's the Giants own fault this conversation is still taking place. Schoen was given a "get out of bad QB situation free" card with Jones's injuries providing them cover to move on at the position and all he did this offseason was replace Tyrod Taylor with Drew Lock. Truly mind-boggling.
Did they not make an attempt to trade up for the player they liked in Maye?
Takes two to tango in a trade
So I do not think that assertion is fair
Now Carl B and Bob P are getting attacked.
My lord.
Now Carl B and Bob P are getting attacked.
My lord.
Im sure but aren’t Banks & Papa the ones doing the “attacking”?
Quote:
If we're being honest, we know that there are people (some here) who refused to take part in 2022 because Daniel Jones finally found some level of success. Was it moderate and short-lived success? Yes. But it was success nonetheless.
That said, we're past the Daniel Jones expiration date here. He has proven to be too injury prone and not consistent enough to be the Giants starting QB. For so many reasons I think the Seattle game last year was his last stand. A chance to basically stabilize (and to that point) save the young season and prove at least a little bit you are the right guy for the contract they gave you. It was a complete failure and a good QB wins that game at home against a good but not great Seattle team.
It's the Giants own fault this conversation is still taking place. Schoen was given a "get out of bad QB situation free" card with Jones's injuries providing them cover to move on at the position and all he did this offseason was replace Tyrod Taylor with Drew Lock. Truly mind-boggling.
Did they not make an attempt to trade up for the player they liked in Maye?
Takes two to tango in a trade
So I do not think that assertion is fair
Yea, so the plan this offseason was to attempt a trade up with a team that in all likelihood was never moving out of that spot. The only team that was as desperate at the QB position as we still are. A team whose newly hired head coach states at his intro press conference that they were going to take the best player at the most critical position”. Why anyone would think the Pats were seriously going to move out of that spot is beyond me.
I can sit outside the convenience store where lotto tickets are sold claiming that’s my plan to get rich, but that’s not much of a plan, right?
The miserable thing for fans is that if he hits anywhere even close to his ceiling - just a decent game manager/backup QB, then the Giants will be enthusiastic about keeping him and paying him huge money.
The guy is brilliant at personal branding and networking. It's given him generational wealth and unprecedented professional opportunities for a QB as bad as he is. Sucks for us though.
It seems the Seattle game is what most point to as their last straw with Jones. He played poorly. No doubt. A good QB wins that game?
JMS and Bellinger left the game after the first series due to injury. Therefore, the offensive lineup the rest of that game:
Ezuedu
Lemeiuex (sp) Glowinski also played
Bredeson
McKethan
Neal
Breida and Brightwell
WDR, Hyatt, Hodgins
Waller and Cage
Jones played poorly. But if you’re being honest, there’s probably not many QBs lifting that group to victory.
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In comment 16521033 Chris684 said:
Quote:
If we're being honest, we know that there are people (some here) who refused to take part in 2022 because Daniel Jones finally found some level of success. Was it moderate and short-lived success? Yes. But it was success nonetheless.
That said, we're past the Daniel Jones expiration date here. He has proven to be too injury prone and not consistent enough to be the Giants starting QB. For so many reasons I think the Seattle game last year was his last stand. A chance to basically stabilize (and to that point) save the young season and prove at least a little bit you are the right guy for the contract they gave you. It was a complete failure and a good QB wins that game at home against a good but not great Seattle team.
It's the Giants own fault this conversation is still taking place. Schoen was given a "get out of bad QB situation free" card with Jones's injuries providing them cover to move on at the position and all he did this offseason was replace Tyrod Taylor with Drew Lock. Truly mind-boggling.
Did they not make an attempt to trade up for the player they liked in Maye?
Takes two to tango in a trade
So I do not think that assertion is fair
Yea, so the plan this offseason was to attempt a trade up with a team that in all likelihood was never moving out of that spot. The only team that was as desperate at the QB position as we still are. A team whose newly hired head coach states at his intro press conference that they were going to take the best player at the most critical position”. Why anyone would think the Pats were seriously going to move out of that spot is beyond me.
I can sit outside the convenience store where lotto tickets are sold claiming that’s my plan to get rich, but that’s not much of a plan, right?
Huh?
How would they have known when formulating their off season plans that the Pats wanted Maye before the full evaluation period
And…why would they go through the evaluation period of all the QB’s before eventually settling on Maye
Not trying to be disrespectful, but that doesn’t make sense
I hope....the Jones step it up and delivers.
I also hope the OL plays like professionals.
And on paper the WR can be special.
If not, the NFL is Not For Long! Next man up.
I know this was posted already but clearly Carl must read BBI... LOL
People keep saying that but I am not buying it. The Giants were/are comfortable running it back with Jones.
I know this was posted already but clearly Carl must read BBI... LOL
I disagree. There seems to be a huge disconnect between people who think Giant fans hate DJ personally when it the truth is that they hate that he’s the QB because he isn’t that good.
Quote:
"There's a certain sector of folks that call themselves Giants fans that have made it their life's work to shit on Daniel Jones."
I know this was posted already but clearly Carl must read BBI... LOL
I disagree. There seems to be a huge disconnect between people who think Giant fans hate DJ personally when it the truth is that they hate that he’s the QB because he isn’t that good.
You are describing yourself maybe, SF. Others, I am quite sure feel differently than you. Honestly, I could give a shit the name on the jersey taking snaps from center. I just want the Giants to win. And so I root for Giants players to win, and kick ass. Period. And I have to say at this point? I am rooting for the kid to shove it in everyone's face, I want Shane/Davoli to shove it in everyone's face that shit on the kid all day long, incessantly, in thread after thread, post after post, with this insane conviction that somehow, they know better... and would make all of the best decisions... lol. I can guarantee if that happens there will be certain posters that slink away again quietly... lol
Then dives into the laundry list of why he's not successful
Then I like how Banks commented that if you don't support Jones, it's probably because you've lost money gambling. Haha.
These guys just don't get twitter, or the internet in general. The comment section anywhere is a waste land, and best to be ignored, and certainly not engaged
And its organization wide from owner on down
Joe Schoen said
“it's hard to go in and compete week in and week out if you don't have your best players. One of the guys was telling me the other day, going into the season, if you told me (tight end Darren) Waller, (tackle) Andrew Thomas, Saquon and Daniel would play less than 40 plays together, I wouldn't have been real excited about that, and that's the reality of how it played out.”
Im sure the other 49 guys on the roster feel just great hearing the GM say that.
Ezuedu
Lemeiuex (sp) Glowinski also played
Bredeson
McKethan
Neal
Breida and Brightwell
WDR, Hyatt, Hodgins
Waller and Cage.
Truth is this is pretty representative of the level of offensive talent Jones has played with for five years. It’s absurd. Do I know he’d be better with better talent. No. Do I think ignoring this reality makes any sense. No. I have no problem moving on. Circumstances are what they are. However, given the above the amount of animus Jones faces here is absurd as well.
-Jones looks meh/undwhelming in home opener against the Vikings, which is traditionally how he's looked in every home opener in his career. Since they're not playing Tepper/McAdoo/Rhule's Panthers, they lose.
-Jones looks much better next week on the road against a weak opponent. Much like Az in 2023 or Wash in 2021, the game is decided on the last drive; either/or whether they win or lose this one.
-Jones looks ok for 1 or 2 quarters against the Browns but eventually folds in the 2nd half and starts throwing scatter balls and taking uneccessary sacks. Likely this is the part of the season where the usual suspects start blaming an injury on the offensive line or skill positions for Jones's struggles
-Dallas on national TV in which Jones is 1-11. loss.
The conversation is really going to be crazy at this point. We'll see how Papa/Banks/Schmelk squirm through this one.
-Jones looks meh/undwhelming in home opener against the Vikings, which is traditionally how he's looked in every home opener in his career. Since they're not playing Tepper/McAdoo/Rhule's Panthers, they lose.
-Jones looks much better next week on the road against a weak opponent. Much like Az in 2023 or Wash in 2021, the game is decided on the last drive; either/or whether they win or lose this one.
-Jones looks ok for 1 or 2 quarters against the Browns but eventually folds in the 2nd half and starts throwing scatter balls and taking uneccessary sacks. Likely this is the part of the season where the usual suspects start blaming an injury on the offensive line or skill positions for Jones's struggles
-Dallas on national TV in which Jones is 1-11. loss.
The conversation is really going to be crazy at this point. We'll see how Papa/Banks/Schmelk squirm through this one.
I'd love to argue with you, but sadly I can't. I will be shocked if we are not lamenting another lost season by Columbus Day.
Miserable twats abound. And they sure do like company.
The genesis of the discussion was papa commenting on a thread or post that waS discussing college football. An obsessive nutter came galloping in and turned it into a Daniel Jones thread chock full of rage and bile.
Sound familiar?
Miserable twats abound. And they sure do like company.
The genesis of the discussion was papa commenting on a thread or post that waS discussing college football. An obsessive nutter came galloping in and turned it into a Daniel Jones thread chock full of rage and bile.
Sound familiar?
You are 100% correct. It is our fault that Jones has put up backup level numbers (as posted by Terps) and is being crammed down our throats by state run media as a quality qb who has been a victim of our absurd expectations that maybe he eclipses 20 TD passes in a single season. It is our fault that the Giants have had one of the 2 or 3 worsts records in football since 2012 and made very wrong choice a franchise could make over that period. It is our fault that a dinosaur retread of a GM selected a running back with the Giants highest draft selection in decades with a qb who was cooked and a non existent oline. Who could have seen that it was a disaster of a draft pick....??
Shame on us, if we are more supportive maybe the 6th overall pick in the draft will put up borderline starter numbers this coming season.
Miserable twats abound. And they sure do like company.
The genesis of the discussion was papa commenting on a thread or post that waS discussing college football. An obsessive nutter came galloping in and turned it into a Daniel Jones thread chock full of rage and bile.
Sound familiar?
hahahah...
that does happen here all the time...
And I'll admit...
I'm a 100% guilty of it myself!
They are providing you the Giants' front office view of the team, and for some reason really focused on attacking the fan base that doesn't warmly embrace the continued ineptitude and losing.
I used to love listening to these guys, but they - especially Papa - has gone full Dottino level shill.
They are providing you the Giants' front office view of the team, and for some reason really focused on attacking the fan base that doesn't warmly embrace the continued ineptitude and losing.
I used to love listening to these guys, but they - especially Papa - has gone full Dottino level shill.
Even if we put aside the fans, it has to drive the other players bonkers that Jones garners so much positive attention from the organization. There is actually talent on the current team, yet the spin machine from state run media rolls out in full force for Jones.
His paychecks have had a Mara signature on them since 1988 when he started hosting pre & postgame shows.
He graduated college in 1986, so essentially he's spent his entire professional life in the Giants organization.
They are people who are tired of watching the team not be competitive on offense because their QB can't read a defense. The team's stubborn willingness to stick with him despite his failures is why fans have turned so against Jones.
Although it is nice that they are not blaming Jones' failures directly on John Mara firing everyone every two years.
This entire organization is taking on John Mara's personality - Uninformed petulance.
So Jones sucks because his coaches and coordinators are being fired every two years? Who is making that decision you are criticizing? They act like that was something imposed by the league, not a result of John Maras poor decisions and uninformed petulance.
Quote:
For so many reasons I think the Seattle game last year was his last stand. A chance to basically stabilize (and to that point) save the young season and prove at least a little bit you are the right guy for the contract they gave you. It was a complete failure and a good QB wins that game at home against a good but not great Seattle team.
It seems the Seattle game is what most point to as their last straw with Jones. He played poorly. No doubt. A good QB wins that game?
JMS and Bellinger left the game after the first series due to injury. Therefore, the offensive lineup the rest of that game:
Ezuedu
Lemeiuex (sp) Glowinski also played
Bredeson
McKethan
Neal
Breida and Brightwell
WDR, Hyatt, Hodgins
Waller and Cage
Jones played poorly. But if you’re being honest, there’s probably not many QBs lifting that group to victory.
Thank you mako j. The Do It Anywayz stuff is nauseating. As is the "It's been 5 years" stuff. If you're served a shit sandwich for 5 years, you've still never had a good meal. It's not the fault of the guy eating the shit sandwich every year.
Does that mean DJ's a good QB? Of course not. But to keep drawing lines in the sand like the SEA game was the end-all be-all is foolish. As usual he was in a weeks-long run of getting annihilated behind an embarrassing OL and forgettable skill players.
The line in the sand to draw is this guy is physically & mentally beaten up now, and has been abused by this fanbase. A fresh start seems to make sense.
Here's a hint: the road to a return to greatness will be paved with authenticity, not propaganda. Both with players in the locker room, as well as knowledgable sports fans. And this ain't whining (and btw, is there anything more pathetic than posters whining about other posters' opinions?). It is a reality we share that doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon. You can either stick your head in the sand. Or scream loudly. As BBI did in forcing the ouster of the Joe Judge clown show.
So keep screaming loudly my fellow BBI warriors for authentic discourse and meritocratic performance expectations and maybe some day we will have a franchise to be proud of again.
If anyone has lost money betting on Daniel Jones winning football games in the last several years, that is on them, not Daniel Jones.
I guess we all need to try harder to embrace being fans of the "lovable losers" who are a bunch of swell guys you'd like to have a beer with, but just don't compete on the field.
Being employed by a team that sucks and having to try and remain positive is not easy.
Kill em all you want - but they are in a tough spot.
Quote:
I've made money betting against Jones.
If anyone has lost money betting on Daniel Jones winning football games in the last several years, that is on them, not Daniel Jones.
I guess we all need to try harder to embrace being fans of the "lovable losers" who are a bunch of swell guys you'd like to have a beer with, but just don't compete on the field.
Something tells me that having a beer with Jones wouldn’t really be all that entertaining either
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In comment 16521204 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I've made money betting against Jones.
If anyone has lost money betting on Daniel Jones winning football games in the last several years, that is on them, not Daniel Jones.
I guess we all need to try harder to embrace being fans of the "lovable losers" who are a bunch of swell guys you'd like to have a beer with, but just don't compete on the field.
Something tells me that having a beer with Jones wouldn’t really be all that entertaining either
No, but you know he would use a lot of "please" and "thank you" and certainly use a coaster, so there's that.
No, but you know he would use a lot of "please" and "thank you" and certainly use a coaster, so there's that.
He probably tips very well, too
I still like Papa but more of a light listen. I don't take his opinions too seriously.
I don't think the organization realizes how badly they are coming across by lecturing their fan base about how they are shitty fans with irrational agenda-driven opinions if they don't fall in line and cheer for Daniel Jones.
You have put a crappy team on the field for the past decade. Maybe try understanding why your fans sick of it instead of lecturing them about their obligation to a team that has been a league laughing stock for the past decade.
Maybe it's time for arrogance to be humbled again?
Most on this thread seem to agree that Papa and Banks are coming off looking like organizational shills here. The only one who seems to be 'bombing' the thread is you and your 'lol' take.
Quote:
Aaaaaaand The usual suspects bombing the thread again. Surprise surprise.... lol
Most on this thread seem to agree that Papa and Banks are coming off looking like organizational shills here. The only one who seems to be 'bombing' the thread is you and your 'lol' take.
Yep. That's me.
LOL
Hilarious considering his lack of success apparently has nothing to do with his own merit.
Mike from Ohio : 11:43 am : link : reply
aer probably gamblers who lost money on them is next level gas lighting.
They are people who are tired of watching the team not be competitive on offense because their QB can't read a defense. The team's stubborn willingness to stick with him despite his failures is why fans have turned so against Jones.
Although it is nice that they are not blaming Jones' failures directly on John Mara firing everyone every two years.
It's also magnified by the fact that so many other teams move on from their QBs much, much sooner.
Look at the Chiefs - Alex Smith's performance is light years better than Jones, and they chose to draft Mahomes.
Right now, you're needing to trust that the Giants know better than everyone else. Can anyone truly believe that?
Nothing new for this franchise.
Bob Papa is a different story. Enough said. I'm curious how many people listen to that podcast. Doesn't he realize that the people that are listening are probably the most dedicated fans the team has? I'm sure he thinks he defending the people that sign his paycheck but he's probably doing more harm than good. There is no defending what the Giants have become in the past decade.
Carl Banks Highlights - ( New Window )
I watched Carl Banks play and he was an incredible linebacker and Giant. I also think what he said in that video is asinine. I can hold both of those thoughts simultaneously. It's the same way I can acknowledge LT was the greatest player of all time, and also kind of a very flawed human being.
Being a fan of a player does not mean you agree with everything they say. I am surprised that has to be said to an adult.
And now here we are. What happened?
He's saying silly things in order to puff up Daniel Jones, because that's what his bosses require him to do. That, I'll ignore.
And now here we are. What happened?
He has been really good at being angry and firing people, and not taking any shit from chairs. It's everything else he seems to struggle with.
The apple fell a long way from the tree with John.
So the only legitimate opinions on Jones are fulsome praise, then. Good to know.
No one, repeat no one can get anything out of this guy
Whats more likely- every single coach we have hired for 5 years has been absolutely terrible or the Giants are forcing these coaches to put a round peg in a square hole?
No matter what system he has played in, who has coached him and who has played with him and at what level he has played it. He simply hasnt done anything but lose games, throw 200 yds or less a game, throw 1 TD per game and 6.8 ypa
And now here we are. What happened?
The scary possibility is that this is the way they've always been run, and the successes they've enjoyed have been the result of external influence (Rozelle forcing George Young on them) and luck, and not some larger policy or plan.
Much of the fanbase feels worn down, and who could blame them?
That, and the fact that he's been a bottom-tier QB for five years who was outplayed by a rookie UDFA last season.
And its organization wide from owner on down
Joe Schoen said
“it's hard to go in and compete week in and week out if you don't have your best players. One of the guys was telling me the other day, going into the season, if you told me (tight end Darren) Waller, (tackle) Andrew Thomas, Saquon and Daniel would play less than 40 plays together, I wouldn't have been real excited about that, and that's the reality of how it played out.”
Im sure the other 49 guys on the roster feel just great hearing the GM say that.
I know this was posted already but clearly Carl must read BBI... LOL
That’s a weird take.
Quote:
and defending Jones. But some of those fans that they are bashing, are their listeners! That’s not a formula for success.
Maybe if those fans they are "bashing" would calm down for a second and listen, they would understand that they are not saying anything but the truth. Jones may not be the guy long term but he is the guy right now. Shitting on him is destructive behavior. Rooting against him is the same as rooting against your team. I've said this a million times. It's a cowards way out. You're afraid to be let down again so you embrace losing and blame DJ because it's the easy thing to do. There is logic to what the so-called DJFC has been saying all along. The ONLY argument against Jones that is based on fact is that he has been injured a lot. Other than that, we have NO clue what Jones can be with a true #1 and an OL that can block.
Wait a minute...stating your opinion that Daniel Jones sucks and you want the Giants to get rid of him makes you a coward?
Those people are afraid of being let down? We've already been let down by this team for the past decade and our first round pick who can't play QB at a league average level.
I would argue the exact opposite. Refusing to acknowledge reality and cheering blindly into an echo chamber of everyone telling you everything is ok is cowardly.
-Jones looks meh/undwhelming in home opener against the Vikings, which is traditionally how he's looked in every home opener in his career. Since they're not playing Tepper/McAdoo/Rhule's Panthers, they lose.
-Jones looks much better next week on the road against a weak opponent. Much like Az in 2023 or Wash in 2021, the game is decided on the last drive; either/or whether they win or lose this one.
-Jones looks ok for 1 or 2 quarters against the Browns but eventually folds in the 2nd half and starts throwing scatter balls and taking uneccessary sacks. Likely this is the part of the season where the usual suspects start blaming an injury on the offensive line or skill positions for Jones's struggles
-Dallas on national TV in which Jones is 1-11. loss.
The conversation is really going to be crazy at this point. We'll see how Papa/Banks/Schmelk squirm through this one.
The utter lack of comprehension and self awareness should be alarming....but it's not.
Toxic fandom is not about how you root or what you think about the team, players, mgmt. It is about how you express yourself, how you act and interact.
It is not that people are critical (which is deserved) it is the people who are not civil.
If you regularly find a way to comment on Jones or Mara or Gettlemen in a thread that is objectively not about them....you may be part of the problem
If you attack, belittle, abuse, or bully other people for having a different opinion ... you may be toxic
If you obsessively spam every thread all day, every day with the same 4 thoughts....you may need help.
If you "talk" to people on the internet in a way you never would at a bar.... you might be a candy ass punk.
onward and downward...
Progress!
This is what I love about the BBI. Some yahoo comes on spouting some kind of criticism based on something he clearly knows fuck all about. George Young wasn't forced on anybody and he certainly wasn't forced on anybody by their record in the 1970s. The Giants were trying to find a full-time GM but had a 50-50 ownership split between two parties that hated each other. Anybody Wellington suggested Tim rejected out of hand and the only people Tim suggested were people that he knew Wellington would not accept. So Rozelle suggested GY as a compromise. There have even been reports that Wellington actually asked Rozelle to suggest Young because if Well did Tim would turn him down too.
And other than the fact that the organization has won four Super Bowls, more than 27 of the other 31 teams in the league, it truly is one fucked up team. And 18 games without a playoff win. The humiliation!
Quote:
John Mara was angry at the end of season press conference after 2009. The team missed the playoffs and went 8-8. Mara was visibly angry.
And now here we are. What happened?
The scary possibility is that this is the way they've always been run, and the successes they've enjoyed have been the result of external influence (Rozelle forcing George Young on them) and luck, and not some larger policy or plan.
I think most franchises are 'saved' by savants (i.e. luck) rather than run well over long time periods. Maybe the Ravens, Steelers, even Eagles are exceptions given their decades long relevancy.
Giants were saved by Parcells and Coughlin (and LT and Eli). I don't mean this as some harsh indictment of the team, I think most are in this same boat.
Quote:
Aaaaaaand The usual suspects bombing the thread again. Surprise surprise.... lol
The utter lack of comprehension and self awareness should be alarming....but it's not.
Toxic fandom is not about how you root or what you think about the team, players, mgmt. It is about how you express yourself, how you act and interact.
It is not that people are critical (which is deserved) it is the people who are not civil.
If you regularly find a way to comment on Jones or Mara or Gettlemen in a thread that is objectively not about them....you may be part of the problem
If you attack, belittle, abuse, or bully other people for having a different opinion ... you may be toxic
If you obsessively spam every thread all day, every day with the same 4 thoughts....you may need help.
If you "talk" to people on the internet in a way you never would at a bar.... you might be a candy ass punk.
onward and downward...
Well said Bear! Maybe the sanest post ever on this site. I would add the arrogance is appalling. People, most of whom have never played a down of football in their lives, come on here and spout with absolute certainty that they know better than guys who've done this all their lives and whose jobs depend on what decisions they make and then attack with even more vitriolic certainty when countered. All the time! It is a little toxic.
Double-digit losses in eight of the past ten seasons. But, by all means, tell me more about how well run the franchise is.
Quote:
In comment 16521269 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
Aaaaaaand The usual suspects bombing the thread again. Surprise surprise.... lol
The utter lack of comprehension and self awareness should be alarming....but it's not.
Toxic fandom is not about how you root or what you think about the team, players, mgmt. It is about how you express yourself, how you act and interact.
It is not that people are critical (which is deserved) it is the people who are not civil.
If you regularly find a way to comment on Jones or Mara or Gettlemen in a thread that is objectively not about them....you may be part of the problem
If you attack, belittle, abuse, or bully other people for having a different opinion ... you may be toxic
If you obsessively spam every thread all day, every day with the same 4 thoughts....you may need help.
If you "talk" to people on the internet in a way you never would at a bar.... you might be a candy ass punk.
onward and downward...
Well said Bear! Maybe the sanest post ever on this site. I would add the arrogance is appalling. People, most of whom have never played a down of football in their lives, come on here and spout with absolute certainty that they know better than guys who've done this all their lives and whose jobs depend on what decisions they make and then attack with even more vitriolic certainty when countered. All the time! It is a little toxic.
The lack of self awareness is astonishing
Quote:
People, most of whom have never played a down of football in their lives, come on here and spout with absolute certainty that they know better than guys who've done this all their lives and whose jobs depend on what decisions they make and then attack with even more vitriolic certainty when countered. All the time! It is a little toxic.
Double-digit losses in eight of the past ten seasons. But, by all means, tell me more about how well run the franchise is.
If you had played a single down of football, you would know a long history of double digit losing seasons is the plan of a successful organization filled with the right experts.
If the Giants did it, it was correct. Never forget that.
It started out embarrassing,
really and truly embarrassing.
and then raised the Cold Hard Facts argument-
oh boy -- Sheesh
only degenerate gamblers have reasons to not like Daniel Jones performance
those boys need a medium coke
and clown hats
because that is what they made of themselves with this product
If the Giants did it, it was correct. Never forget that.
I have no effing idea what your point is but of course that's par for the course. Except that the people that currently run the Giants football ops, who you folks are by definition dumping on, have only been here two years. In fact they took over a team that had a 22-59 record in the previous 5 seasons, but in their 2 seasons are 16-19-1 with a playoff appearance. And Brian Daboll is the coach most credited with helping Josh allen develop into one of the best QBs in the league. But WTF does he know about QBs compared with guys like Terps and SF and yourself.
I just think Jones sucks. Tar and feather me if you so desire.
I just think Jones sucks. Tar and feather me if you so desire.
Ah yes; self-awareness raises its ugly head again. Brian Daboll clearly doesn't think Jones sucks. The fact that you do and have said so literally a million times apparently without a moment's reflection means you think you know more about QBs that Daboll. Sheesh!
Are you this stupid?
I often disagree with him. I think Daniel Jones is a complete bust on year 6 of a scholarship as he would say. I think as long as Daniel Jones is the Giants QB1 they have a 0.0 chance to win a Super Bowl.
I meant criticize him on a personal level not about his opinions on the Giants state propaganda news outlet. I think it's pretty obvious how I feel about Carl Banks but I stopped listening to that podcast a long time ago and I didn't listen to the link.
Somewhat off topic I was listening to Giants kickoff or Giants huddle after the draft. The show where they take phone calls. Schmeelk and Dottino were the hosts and Dottino was being the voice of reason regarding "upgrades". It was a pleasant surprise. I haven't pushed my luck by listening again.
Are you this stupid?
My goodness SF; the Giants, with no doubt a huge input from Daboll, have chosen to stick with Jones and by all accounts are going to give him every chance to succeed this fall. Obviously they don't think he sucks.
And I don't think anybody has any problem with people voicing their opinion. You like a decision or you disagree with it and move on. The Giants have made their decision as to how they want to proceed at the position this year and everyone is free to agree or disagree. But the decision has been made and the team is moving on. What is bizarre is having fans arguing until they are blue in the face 'but what has Jones ever done?' and 'how many chances does a guy get' etc etc etc to the point that a lot of them sound like they'll be cheering against the Giants this year so what they maybe get a shot at a better QB next year. I'm cheering for the Giants to do well with Jones this year and keep building to get to where we want to get. If Jones flops or has another injury then you move on, but hoping that something like that happens is bizarre.
The Daniel Jones NYG QB discussion topic is officially the proverbial dead horse. There will be no new material here. Next season or any season beyond that will not reveal anything about Jones we don't already know. Our best case scenario here is stays healthy and plays decent. That is our pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. However, it is so much more likely that he is ineffective or hurts his neck again (or something else).
And if pretending that something shitty is great makes you a good fan, then a good fan is not something I'm interested in being.
The Giants are serving the fans garbage.
I just think Jones sucks. Tar and feather me if you so desire.
This is what all the apologists do. Its an appeal to authority to support a point they can't argue any other way. The brightest people made the decision so if you criticize it, you must believe you are smarter than them.
It is a cop out when you don't have a lucid point to make.
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WTF? Where did I state I know more about QBs than Dabs? I obviously don’t.
I just think Jones sucks. Tar and feather me if you so desire.
This is what all the apologists do. Its an appeal to authority to support a point they can't argue any other way. The brightest people made the decision so if you criticize it, you must believe you are smarter than them.
It is a cop out when you don't have a lucid point to make.
So whom am I going to believe here Mike. Some guy howling at the moon in a bar or some highly respected football people. Let me think on it for awhile!
I am not asking you to believe me over Brian Daboll. I think you know that, right? I am expressing my opinion on Daniel Jones based on watching him play football for the last 6 seasons. If you choose to believe that Daboll thinks Jones is a really good QB because Daboll coaches the Giants and Jones is his QB, than believe away.
Very knowledgeable NFL people with decades of experience draft players who bust all the time. They start guys who play poorly. It doesn't mean they are idiots, it means they are not infallible.
Brian Daboll didn't create Josh Allen in his basement. Daboll certainly had a big part in his development into a superstar. Does that mean every QB he touches will become Josh Allen? Look at all the jobs he held in the past as QB coach or offensive coordinator and point out the other guys he turned into great QBs.
Daboll knows more about QB than me. We also don't know his opinion about Daniel Jones, and we do know he is not infallible.
But if it helps you to continuously oversimplify things to support your opinion, let it rip!
You can report back to Bob and Carl that without one iota of doubt everyone one of us hopes the Giants have a 19-0 record in 2024 and Daniel Jones is the MVP of the regular season and the Super Bowl. But anyone who thinks that Daniel Jones has shown he can be a Super Bowl winning QB is dealing in alternate facts.
This is a Giants internet fan board. We’re not on the payroll. The Giants have been a dysfunctional mess for over a decade. They are back to being the same laughing stock and league doormat they were when the fan base sold out Giants Stadium over and over and over in the 1970s no matter how bad the team got. For the record Tim J Mara should be in the Giants Ring of Honor. He is the person who pushed the Giants front office out of the 1950’s and pushed his uncle out of the way which changed everything until his uncle’s kids took over in 2012.
My first games as a Giants fan were in Yankee Stadium watching Lombardi's Packers and Landry's Cowboys humiliate the Giants the way Jerry Jones Cowboys do now. 89-14. Are you kidding me?
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In comment 16521426 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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WTF? Where did I state I know more about QBs than Dabs? I obviously don’t.
I just think Jones sucks. Tar and feather me if you so desire.
This is what all the apologists do. Its an appeal to authority to support a point they can't argue any other way. The brightest people made the decision so if you criticize it, you must believe you are smarter than them.
It is a cop out when you don't have a lucid point to make.
So whom am I going to believe here Mike. Some guy howling at the moon in a bar or some highly respected football people. Let me think on it for awhile!
People said the same thing about Gettleman and he was an unmitigated disaster
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The scary possibility is that this is the way they've always been run, and the successes they've enjoyed have been the result of external influence (Rozelle forcing George Young on them) and luck, and not some larger policy or plan.
This is what I love about the BBI. Some yahoo comes on spouting some kind of criticism based on something he clearly knows fuck all about. George Young wasn't forced on anybody and he certainly wasn't forced on anybody by their record in the 1970s. The Giants were trying to find a full-time GM but had a 50-50 ownership split between two parties that hated each other. Anybody Wellington suggested Tim rejected out of hand and the only people Tim suggested were people that he knew Wellington would not accept. So Rozelle suggested GY as a compromise. There have even been reports that Wellington actually asked Rozelle to suggest Young because if Well did Tim would turn him down too.
And other than the fact that the organization has won four Super Bowls, more than 27 of the other 31 teams in the league, it truly is one fucked up team. And 18 games without a playoff win. The humiliation!
The "anybody Wellington suggested that Tim objected to" was some former reporter and drinking buddy of Welly's. Tim blew a gasket and wanted to be bought out. He threatened to sue. That's when Rozelle got involved and imposed order. The Giants got Young who would not have come if he had to put up with Wellington's interference or the feuding Maras. He got absolute 100% control over football operations and a 5 year contract, Rozelle imposed a gag and a 100% hands-off-football- operations order on Wellington under threat of suspension if he interfered and Tim was told to shut up about lawsuits. That's how the Giants got George Young instead of one of his uncle's former players or drinking buddies in charge.
So, was Young forced on Wellington? No. Did Rozelle keep Wellington away from football operations under threat of suspension. Yes. Don't think for a minute it was voluntary. Did Rozelle provide guarantees to Young? Yes
But don't worry nostalgia buffs, Wellington's son is back and fucking up the franchise just like his old man. A chip off the old block.
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Aaaaaaand The usual suspects bombing the thread again. Surprise surprise.... lol
So the only legitimate opinions on Jones are fulsome praise, then. Good to know.
Right Greg! That's exactly what I said.
Or NOT lol
That’s a weird take.
It's a dumb take.
Incidentally, Carl Banks has no problem torching defensive players who don't perform. Why does he have white cotton gloves for Jones?
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In comment 16521426 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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WTF? Where did I state I know more about QBs than Dabs? I obviously don’t.
I just think Jones sucks. Tar and feather me if you so desire.
This is what all the apologists do. Its an appeal to authority to support a point they can't argue any other way. The brightest people made the decision so if you criticize it, you must believe you are smarter than them.
It is a cop out when you don't have a lucid point to make.
So whom am I going to believe here Mike. Some guy howling at the moon in a bar or some highly respected football people. Let me think on it for awhile!
snablats, you probably said this same thing last year when they extended Jones--how's that working out for you?
Fucking shills.
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So because Banks was a great player, one can’t question his analysis on Jones?
That’s a weird take.
It's a dumb take.
Incidentally, Carl Banks has no problem torching defensive players who don't perform. Why does he have white cotton gloves for Jones?
I find the same shit with Neal. Let’s torch Evan-and he hasn’t been good-but don’t dare say anything negative about Jones. Fucking hypocrites.
Every other fan base in the league is literally laughing at us that we’re still riding with Jones. That’s why we are a laughingstock.
Don't tell me what I can and cannot see
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Not argument in favor if Jones
No one, repeat no one can get anything out of this guy
Whats more likely- every single coach we have hired for 5 years has been absolutely terrible or the Giants are forcing these coaches to put a round peg in a square hole?
No matter what system he has played in, who has coached him and who has played with him and at what level he has played it. He simply hasnt done anything but lose games, throw 200 yds or less a game, throw 1 TD per game and 6.8 ypa
You telling me Joe Judge and Pat Shurmer were great coaches? And the, what? 4 Offensive Coordinators were really actually some of the best but DJ was holding the team back? gtfo. This is the most ridiculous take I've read yet. Banks is right.
You are absolutely embarrassing yourself on this thread. Was Shimer a good HEAD COACH? Hell no. But the man could run an offense and was known to be very good with QBs. Yet here you are proclaiming that Daniel Jones has had nothing but ALL bad coaches, bad teammates, bad weapons, bad OL, bad defenses, on and on and on. And it’s never once dawned on you dumb, ignorant Pom Pom wavers that maybe, just maybe Daniel Jones plays a part in some of those endless failed coaches and players. Nope. THEY’VE all failed HIM!
Wake the fuck up!!!!! This is unbelievable
As if Jones should be absolved for everything. No other Giant that I can remember has gotten this treatment. It's truly remarkable. But hey, we'll start our 1-4 this fall, Jones will suck, & the excuses will come out again.
New York Giants football...FEEL THE EXCITEMENT!
Then he'll wake up and get to work on time. And we'll get a press release about how amazing it is that he gets to work on time every day and how nobody is more dedicated to their craft because he also went to the gym.
The thread's premise was Banks & Papa-two shills-lecturing fans for how they should feel about Jones. I'm so fucking sick of it.
'We're in goofy land right now.'-Carl Bank. Like fuck off Carl.
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Someone above mentioned BBI as the place self-awareness goes to die. A thread that started out essentially as a criticism of a commentary that the place has become rather toxic with its incessant, repetitive, vitriolic anti-Jones diatribes devolves into a series of incessant, repetitive, vitriolic anti-Jones diatribes!! Well done guys!!
The thread's premise was Banks & Papa-two shills-lecturing fans for how they should feel about Jones. I'm so fucking sick of it.
'We're in goofy land right now.'-Carl Bank. Like fuck off Carl.
They are shills because they don't agree with you on Daniel Jones?
But what I find more insulting is their disdain for fans who dare criticize the Giants or Jones. Like fuck off Bob & Carl...maybe if we haven't sucked the last decade, people wouldn't be so mad.
I hope Papa & Carl can be reasonable. I doubt it.
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In comment 16521685 Snorkels said:
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Someone above mentioned BBI as the place self-awareness goes to die. A thread that started out essentially as a criticism of a commentary that the place has become rather toxic with its incessant, repetitive, vitriolic anti-Jones diatribes devolves into a series of incessant, repetitive, vitriolic anti-Jones diatribes!! Well done guys!!
The thread's premise was Banks & Papa-two shills-lecturing fans for how they should feel about Jones. I'm so fucking sick of it.
'We're in goofy land right now.'-Carl Bank. Like fuck off Carl.
They are shills because they don't agree with you on Daniel Jones?
The franchise play by play guy and a ring of honor legend are wasting time telling fans what to think and how to act while this team has been 3rd and 4th place for 10 years.
'They have made it their life's work to shit on Daniel Jones'-Carl Bank.
No Carl, no one is shitting on Daniel Jones. They're just pointing out that he's not a good QB & want a better one.
But we're 'goofy' per Carl. Seriously Carl, fuck off.
'They have made it their life's work to shit on Daniel Jones'-Carl Bank.
No Carl, no one is shitting on Daniel Jones. They're just pointing out that he's not a good QB & want a better one.
But we're 'goofy' per Carl. Seriously Carl, fuck off.
Ya think you might be getting a bit to wound up over this?😁😁😁
I
As if Jones should be absolved for everything. No other Giant that I can remember has gotten this treatment. It's truly remarkable. But hey, we'll start our 1-4 this fall, Jones will suck, & the excuses will come out again.
New York Giants football...FEEL THE EXCITEMENT!
Of course the excuses will continue. I mean, they already have the “Jones was coming off a severe injury and it usually takes 2 years to get back to normal” all locked and loaded. And Mara will agree with them and there we are, on to year 7…
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He's just parroting Mara...'We've done everything possible to screw this kid up.'
As if Jones should be absolved for everything. No other Giant that I can remember has gotten this treatment. It's truly remarkable. But hey, we'll start our 1-4 this fall, Jones will suck, & the excuses will come out again.
New York Giants football...FEEL THE EXCITEMENT!
Of course the excuses will continue. I mean, they already have the “Jones was coming off a severe injury and it usually takes 2 years to get back to normal” all locked and loaded. And Mara will agree with them and there we are, on to year 7…
I wonder how Mara felt trying to draft his replacement
One more year
Despite what some of the pinheads say here
They wouldn’t have tried to get Maye if they didn’t want an upgrade
DJHC = Seattle game
DJFC = Minnesota playoff victory
The team won 2 Super Bowls over a decade ago do everyone should be happy with that until apparently someone in our division tops it.
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I just can’t do another season of Jones. He lost me for good in the Seahawks game.
DJHC = Seattle game
DJFC = Minnesota playoff victory
Ive got about 50 other starts from Jones if you would like?
Lets start with his last one vs the Raiders
Or his lone prime time win vs Washington where a playoff spot was basically on the line and Jones unloaded for a 160 yds passing and 35 yds rushing and directing our offense to an inspired 12 pts. (We fortunately got an epic game from Kayvon who had a sack, FF, FR and TD on a singular play)
Or his amazing historic 2 TD to 5 Ints start in 2020 - you probably thought i was gonna say 2023 but no he also did it in 2020- to open the year where he had a 4 game no TD streak! He conpiled a whopping 840 yds 0 TDs 3 INTs in 4 losses before the leaves fell in October
I mean theres a ton more if you want them
And if pretending that something shitty is great makes you a good fan, then a good fan is not something I'm interested in being.
The Giants are serving the fans garbage.
Does the bold text above relate to the notion that fans are partly responsible for the state of the team?
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In comment 16521771 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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I just can’t do another season of Jones. He lost me for good in the Seahawks game.
DJHC = Seattle game
DJFC = Minnesota playoff victory
Ive got about 50 other starts from Jones if you would like?
Lets start with his last one vs the Raiders
Or his lone prime time win vs Washington where a playoff spot was basically on the line and Jones unloaded for a 160 yds passing and 35 yds rushing and directing our offense to an inspired 12 pts. (We fortunately got an epic game from Kayvon who had a sack, FF, FR and TD on a singular play)
Or his amazing historic 2 TD to 5 Ints start in 2020 - you probably thought i was gonna say 2023 but no he also did it in 2020- to open the year where he had a 4 game no TD streak! He conpiled a whopping 840 yds 0 TDs 3 INTs in 4 losses before the leaves fell in October
I mean theres a ton more if you want them
No need to share your life’s work sweetheart. We get it.
This ^^ ... and just a reminder, there's just one person who is THE key to resolving this DJ debate: DJ.
So regardless of your personal point of view, you might as well just stfu, relax, and let camp and the season unfold. But I do hope each side here has a designated Secretary tracking all the threads and comments that can be dredged up and excoriated when DJ does whatever it is he's going to be enabled to do this season. (Oh wait, maybe not ...)
2. There is no doubt to me once Jones is off the team the same people defending him now will be quick to blame him.
I will bite---Neal is still being called the starter as of now and Neal didn't play well in 2022. Jones did play well in 2022. He was one of the best rushing QBs in the league and played well in 9-10 games helping them win 9-10 games. Neal didn't help anyone that year. Yet he's still got a starting job.
Not to mention QBs need more helpful factors around them than the RT needs.
Also, QB and RT not quite the same entity when it comes to PR. But who cares. Both guys need to play well in 24 and contrary to popular belief I think Jones would be done here if he struggled this coming season. Which is all that matters.
HE's had one good year under this regime and one bad year. 24 is a big season for DJ. It's a big year for a lot of players.
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In comment 16520993 JohnB said:
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and defending Jones. But some of those fans that they are bashing, are their listeners! That’s not a formula for success.
Maybe if those fans they are "bashing" would calm down for a second and listen, they would understand that they are not saying anything but the truth. Jones may not be the guy long term but he is the guy right now. Shitting on him is destructive behavior. Rooting against him is the same as rooting against your team. I've said this a million times. It's a cowards way out. You're afraid to be let down again so you embrace losing and blame DJ because it's the easy thing to do. There is logic to what the so-called DJFC has been saying all along. The ONLY argument against Jones that is based on fact is that he has been injured a lot. Other than that, we have NO clue what Jones can be with a true #1 and an OL that can block.
Wait a minute...stating your opinion that Daniel Jones sucks and you want the Giants to get rid of him makes you a coward?
Those people are afraid of being let down? We've already been let down by this team for the past decade and our first round pick who can't play QB at a league average level.
I would argue the exact opposite. Refusing to acknowledge reality and cheering blindly into an echo chamber of everyone telling you everything is ok is cowardly.
1.) Saquon Barkley was 100% the most talented and gifted athlete on our team and when DJ had been successful, Barkley was a major part of it (since it certainly wasn't the OL or the receivers). So to pay DJ before Barkely was bad enough. to pay him INSTEAD of Barkley was a complete head scratcher. Thibs was not wrong, but I don't think his intent was to say Jones didn't deserve to get paid. Just that Barkley should have been a priority. I'm not floundering or backpedaling. I've said this numerous times. I like DJ and I'd like to see him succeed with the right pieces in place and if he doesn't? move on. But I was always a FAN of Barkley. Gonna be hard watching him as an Eagle twice a year.
2.) Malik's statement had some context. He's also not wrong. Even if we can't agree on DJ's potential, I think we can ALL agree that the Giants actually DO need to figure out what they are doing at QB. Do they believe in DJ? Do they WANT to move on? Was Lock brought in to challenge DJ as the starter or is he purely a backup? Is DJ ready to go or will there be some additional time needed when the season starts? Malik is a kid that is going to speak his mind. He's not a QB coach. He's not a scout. Until Malik starts catching passes from Jones, he's not going to be able to tell anyone anything meaningful about how talented or skilled Jones is as an athlete or a leader. SO I fully took his comment as a truthful evaluation of the state of the Giants offense at the time of that interview. Not an indictment of Jone's level of QB play.
Can you please cite one of these spiteful vitriolic verbal abuse comments on this thread aimed at Daniel Jones?
Ill give you an example of what I mean.
Carl Banks saying those Giants fans who criticize Jones are just gamblers who lost money betting on the Giants
THIS ^^^^ Reading BBI is a discouraging pursuit lately. Yes the team has been bad, but the vitriol here is way beyond any semblance of constructive criticism.
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was dumb on many levels, not the least of which is that it raised expectations to a point that he's not capable of living up to. But, in football the QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Add in that Jones has had an awful OL every year and a really bad receiving corps every year, which made it nearly impossible for him to succeed, and it's clear that his lack of success isn't all on him. He's not a terrible player. He could have a very good year this year. He's not the long-term answer for the NYG at QB, they can and should look for a better QB. But the amount of derision being heaped on him is over the top; and Banks and Papa were right about that.
THIS ^^^^ Reading BBI is a discouraging pursuit lately. Yes the team has been bad, but the vitriol here is way beyond any semblance of constructive criticism.
Jones is a very bad QB. Please refer to his 2023 where he put up last in the league QB starter stats. Sorry, good QBs don't get outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
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In comment 16521056 NBGblue said:
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was dumb on many levels, not the least of which is that it raised expectations to a point that he's not capable of living up to. But, in football the QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Add in that Jones has had an awful OL every year and a really bad receiving corps every year, which made it nearly impossible for him to succeed, and it's clear that his lack of success isn't all on him. He's not a terrible player. He could have a very good year this year. He's not the long-term answer for the NYG at QB, they can and should look for a better QB. But the amount of derision being heaped on him is over the top; and Banks and Papa were right about that.
THIS ^^^^ Reading BBI is a discouraging pursuit lately. Yes the team has been bad, but the vitriol here is way beyond any semblance of constructive criticism.
Jones is a very bad QB. Please refer to his 2023 where he put up last in the league QB starter stats. Sorry, good QBs don't get outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
Your post here fails to address his point, in fact, it illustrates it.
Jones is a very bad QB. Please refer to his 2023 where he put up last in the league QB starter stats. Sorry, good QBs don't get outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
It's like you simply don't understand anything that you read.
Your post here fails to address his point, in fact, it illustrates it.
I think you have the reading comprehension problem. I am responding directly to the comment that Jones isn't a terrible player.
In fact there is overwhelming data to suggest he is terrible. He couldn't outplay Tommy DeVito for chrissakes. This eval is at the core of the dispute. But please, continue to snarkily miss the point.
Stop pretending that Daniel Jones is some unknown commodity that nobody has yet seen film on. He has started over 60 NFL games! There is plenty of evidence of what Daniel Jones is and isn't. You wanting to say "2022 is evidence he is really good" and "everything else is no evidence at all" speaks to your bias, not your analytical abilities.
It really is that simple.
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In comment 16521056 NBGblue said:
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was dumb on many levels, not the least of which is that it raised expectations to a point that he's not capable of living up to. But, in football the QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Add in that Jones has had an awful OL every year and a really bad receiving corps every year, which made it nearly impossible for him to succeed, and it's clear that his lack of success isn't all on him. He's not a terrible player. He could have a very good year this year. He's not the long-term answer for the NYG at QB, they can and should look for a better QB. But the amount of derision being heaped on him is over the top; and Banks and Papa were right about that.
THIS ^^^^ Reading BBI is a discouraging pursuit lately. Yes the team has been bad, but the vitriol here is way beyond any semblance of constructive criticism.
Jones is a very bad QB. Please refer to his 2023 where he put up last in the league QB starter stats. Sorry, good QBs don't get outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
I don't think that many are arguing that DJ is a good QB. Your point is well taken but it is not one of the pure hatred posts I'm referring to ... hence the word "vitriol" They go beyond factual criticism of his play or stats, they sound as if they genuinely hate him.
I don't think that many are arguing that DJ is a good QB. Your point is well taken but it is not one of the pure hatred posts I'm referring to ... hence the word "vitriol" They go beyond factual criticism of his play or stats, they sound as if they genuinely hate him.
I really haven't seen much unhinged vitriol of the sort you are describing. It's possible I am not seeing it or recognizing it. I don't know. Look, for many people life is not easy. And for some, football is an escape, and for a subset they don't want to hear people disparage their favorite players, people they invested a lot of time and emotion into. I get it. And for others, they don't want to see their favorite team waste time and season after season with excuses and inadequate players. I understand both sides even though I am in the latter camp.
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In comment 16522348 River Mike said:
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In comment 16521056 NBGblue said:
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was dumb on many levels, not the least of which is that it raised expectations to a point that he's not capable of living up to. But, in football the QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Add in that Jones has had an awful OL every year and a really bad receiving corps every year, which made it nearly impossible for him to succeed, and it's clear that his lack of success isn't all on him. He's not a terrible player. He could have a very good year this year. He's not the long-term answer for the NYG at QB, they can and should look for a better QB. But the amount of derision being heaped on him is over the top; and Banks and Papa were right about that.
THIS ^^^^ Reading BBI is a discouraging pursuit lately. Yes the team has been bad, but the vitriol here is way beyond any semblance of constructive criticism.
Jones is a very bad QB. Please refer to his 2023 where he put up last in the league QB starter stats. Sorry, good QBs don't get outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
I don't think that many are arguing that DJ is a good QB. Your point is well taken but it is not one of the pure hatred posts I'm referring to ... hence the word "vitriol" They go beyond factual criticism of his play or stats, they sound as if they genuinely hate him.
Just stop. At what point do you realize that saying “they genuinely hate him” sounds like you’re an overly sensitive child? How many times do people have to say NOBODY HATES DANIEL JONES? Jeezus, man. Nobody on this site has even met the guy. But from all accounts he’s a swell guy that you’d like your daughter to date. And THAT is what guys like yourself use to drive your desire to pretend that he’s something that he’s not as a QB. Every single opinion of Daniel Jones on this site is 100% related to how he plays the QB position. Grow up and stop claiming everyone hates Daniel Jones. You sound stupid
It really is that simple.
Some people cannot separate analysis from rooting. Or let their rooting heavily color their analysis (homers).
I'm looking forward to this season less than any I can remember. I can't wait for this to be put to bed either way. I have pretty strong feelings about which way that will turn out, but I guess we'll see.
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In comment 16522356 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16522348 River Mike said:
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In comment 16521056 NBGblue said:
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was dumb on many levels, not the least of which is that it raised expectations to a point that he's not capable of living up to. But, in football the QB gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Add in that Jones has had an awful OL every year and a really bad receiving corps every year, which made it nearly impossible for him to succeed, and it's clear that his lack of success isn't all on him. He's not a terrible player. He could have a very good year this year. He's not the long-term answer for the NYG at QB, they can and should look for a better QB. But the amount of derision being heaped on him is over the top; and Banks and Papa were right about that.
THIS ^^^^ Reading BBI is a discouraging pursuit lately. Yes the team has been bad, but the vitriol here is way beyond any semblance of constructive criticism.
Jones is a very bad QB. Please refer to his 2023 where he put up last in the league QB starter stats. Sorry, good QBs don't get outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
I don't think that many are arguing that DJ is a good QB. Your point is well taken but it is not one of the pure hatred posts I'm referring to ... hence the word "vitriol" They go beyond factual criticism of his play or stats, they sound as if they genuinely hate him.
Just stop. At what point do you realize that saying “they genuinely hate him” sounds like you’re an overly sensitive child? How many times do people have to say NOBODY HATES DANIEL JONES? Jeezus, man. Nobody on this site has even met the guy. But from all accounts he’s a swell guy that you’d like your daughter to date. And THAT is what guys like yourself use to drive your desire to pretend that he’s something that he’s not as a QB. Every single opinion of Daniel Jones on this site is 100% related to how he plays the QB position. Grow up and stop claiming everyone hates Daniel Jones. You sound stupid
Ok, I pretend he's something that he's not? Show me where I praised or defended his play, not just on this thread or anywhere. And yes, of course it's all related to how he plays the QB position, but some here seem to hate him for the way he plays QB instead of just criticizing the play. And in no case or no way did I say that EVERYONE hates him. Oh, and I'm stupid? Grow up.
It really is that simple.
It's fine to think this. What's the point of bothering anymore for you or anyone to keep saying it before you see it? There are half a dozen posts right above this one of yours in which people seem to believe the 2024 season is over already and Jones had failed. They virtually state it as a fact because the way they read his stats (selectively) tells them that. They can claim to be fans but I suspect that fans of other teams might be puzzled to be exposed to this sort of rationalization.
John Mara and the Giants are selling hope and optimism to the fans every off season. It does not end with the marketing department. The people who have a public voice are given scripts.
And a lot of people are sick of wishing and hoping that he is suddenly going to be something he’s never shown to be.
People are just sick and tired of this organization’s incompetence. And then we have to hear from people like Banks-whose Twitter account I checked out earlier and hey Carl…what an embarrassment-tell us we are ‘goofy’ for questioning WTF is going on.
[quote] In comment 16522455 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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I just don’t get how people still don’t understand it. No one-as far as I know-is rooting for Jones to fail. I hope he goes out this fall & lights it up. I just don’t expect it.
It really is that simple.
It's fine to think this. What's the point of bothering anymore for you or anyone to keep saying it before you see it? There are half a dozen posts right above this one of yours in which people seem to believe the 2024 season is over already and Jones had failed. They virtually state it as a fact because the way they read his stats (selectively) tells them that. They can claim to be fans but I suspect that fans of other teams might be puzzled to be exposed to this sort of rationalization. [/quote
Ask fans of other teams about Daniel Jones and tell them you think he's good if you want to see puzzlement.
I hope he's the best QB in the league next year. I'm not holding my breath.
I agree that this phenomenon does occur. However, on BBI, I think the overwhelming majority of Jones critics want him to succeed. I know I do.
A narcissist would cheer for failure if that supported the view they have. There are plenty of them out there.
I'm rooting for Eric Gray to be twenty times better than Barry Sanders. What kind of narcissist must you be to think that can't happen?!
To me, success for a 6th year, $46M QB is playing like top 10 QB. Not limited offense. Not game managing. Putting up points and yards by making real NFL throws all over the field. If Jones plays like a Joe Burrow or a Dak Prescott, that is a success.
Unfortunately, I suspect the Giants and many fans have a much lower bar. I think if Jones does his 200 yards, 1 TD, less than 1 INT per game with his very limited set of throws and the Giants win 7, 8, or 9 games - then that will be viewed as success. And he will keep the job as long as he does it.
I do not want that. Scenario A - Jones is a legit good NFL QB is good. I would certainly have to eat some crow if that happened.
But I would rather see Scenario C - Jones falls flat on his face, than Scenario B - Jones is an adequate game manager. Because I think Scenario give the Giants a chance to be really good at some point. Scenario B gives us a Saints/Raiders type of existence for the next few years. I do not want that.
I'm rooting for Eric Gray to be twenty times better than Barry Sanders. What kind of narcissist must you be to think that can't happen?!
I wasn't calling you a narcissist. There are definitely people that rather see Jones fail then their opinions be proven wrong though.
It cuts both ways
It cuts both ways
No there isn’t.
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And his career then they do the Giants winning
It cuts both ways
No there isn’t.
Yeah, there clearly is.
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
I have zero problem saying that and defending that view as a fan.
Interesting that you bring up Eli. I believe it has been shown that Eli really wasn't in decline in his later years. Indeed, in 2018, his last as a full-time starter he completed 66% of his passes (best of his career) for 4,300 yards and 21 TDs versus 11 picks with a 92.4 QB rating. Both the yards and ratings were the 4th best of his career. What makes it interesting is that Eli's best years were 2011 when he had Nicks and Cruz both operating on all cylinders and 2014-15 when he had Odell at full speed.
And it was not like there were 'some' fans that were willing to excuse Eli for the losing it was actually just about every fan who for a decade screamed 'the Giants ruined the back end of his career because of the horrible OL!' Interesting that so same fans now absolutely refuse to concede in any way or shape that playing behind what was in fact an historically bad OL last year might have crimped Jones' play. Just sayin'! (And please don't come back with the old 'he was outplayed by Danny DeVito because the latter did have a significantly different and better OL to work with (not to mention a better receiving corps.)
This is why my criticism isn't about Jones, but about Mara. The Giants aren't objective actors - they want to be proven right on Jones and are looking for any excuse to reward even a mediocre performance (like they did in 2022).
The Giants are very poorly run, and as fans we are stuck hoping that things outside their control save them from their own ineptitude.
Missed the point Christian. Or get some better receivers because Eli wasn't necessarily all that good when he didn't have them. Also remember that in his last two years plus with this team the Giants were 9-26! But yes eff Jones for that awful record his first 2-3 years.
They should bring back Manning.
They should bring back Manning.
Why? Cause you think at 9-26 we could actually sneak into the playoffs!
I have zero problem saying that and defending that view as a fan.
I think a strong outcome is this regime having the courage to move off of Jones after a season which showed progress. A gritty 8-9 season where the roster looks good but the QB shows limitations.
Schoen cuts Jones and they are in the QB market in 2025 with a roster which is viewed much better than it is today.
I don't disagree with your premise in your bad outcomes thread. But, I really like Daboll. I think there is much more potential that the Giants have a strong HC rather than a strong QB. I also think finding viable head coaches in this league is very hard.
Not every decision Schoen & Daboll have made has been poor, they've had misses, but I don't think they are incompetent. I believe the QB decision is complex and goes beyond Schoen & Daboll although they share their piece of blame.
I totally understand the skepticism that NYG would move off Jones off an 8-9 season, but the contract *does* allow for it. Going 8-9 and putting Kirk Cousins in this offense with Daboll & the WR group. That is the best outcome imo over a full reset.
If you're interested in the Giants becoming a true contender at some point, rooting for Jones to fail fast rather than reach his ceiling of low-level NFL starter makes sense.
This is why my criticism isn't about Jones, but about Mara. The Giants aren't objective actors - they want to be proven right on Jones and are looking for any excuse to reward even a mediocre performance (like they did in 2022).
The Giants are very poorly run, and as fans we are stuck hoping that things outside their control save them from their own ineptitude.
I have zero problem saying that and defending that view as a fan.
I don't think that is what Banks and Papa meant.
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Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Interesting that you bring up Eli. I believe it has been shown that Eli really wasn't in decline in his later years. Indeed, in 2018, his last as a full-time starter he completed 66% of his passes (best of his career) for 4,300 yards and 21 TDs versus 11 picks with a 92.4 QB rating. Both the yards and ratings were the 4th best of his career. What makes it interesting is that Eli's best years were 2011 when he had Nicks and Cruz both operating on all cylinders and 2014-15 when he had Odell at full speed.
And it was not like there were 'some' fans that were willing to excuse Eli for the losing it was actually just about every fan who for a decade screamed 'the Giants ruined the back end of his career because of the horrible OL!' Interesting that so same fans now absolutely refuse to concede in any way or shape that playing behind what was in fact an historically bad OL last year might have crimped Jones' play. Just sayin'! (And please don't come back with the old 'he was outplayed by Danny DeVito because the latter did have a significantly different and better OL to work with (not to mention a better receiving corps.)
It actually isn't that interesting.
Eli was in noticeable decline as the 2016 season went along, and began to lose all patience of sitting in the pocket and taking hits in the couple of seasons that followed. He wasn't lifting up that team any longer with his arm and comeback ability from his earlier days. Watch the games.
Assuming he doesn't blow out his ACL again, on March 4th, 2025 they will have to decide if Jones is worth 1/30M. That's cap adjusted pretty close to what his 5th year option was.
They're not getting ride of Jones unless stinks.
Assuming he doesn't blow out his ACL again, on March 4th, 2025 they will have to decide if Jones is worth 1/30M. That's cap adjusted pretty close to what his 5th year option was.
They're not getting ride of Jones unless stinks.
It is incredible that this is still a thing with the Giants. I can't think of a comparable situation.
Banks specifically said a 'sector' of fans seemingly that want Jones to fail.
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In comment 16523312 HardTruth said:
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And his career then they do the Giants winning
It cuts both ways
No there isn’t.
Yeah, there clearly is.
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
The Giants were 9-2 down the stretch in 2016 on the way to the playoffs and if you could see that Eli was in noticeable decline you should be working in the NFL because nobody else saw it and it only became part of the BBI narrative later.
He certainly could be wrong. But to change what he said seems a bit disingenuous. I don't think Banks and Papa are lumping all Giants fans that want Jones replaced as that 'sector' of fans.
That’s why I’m not opposed to building a team and then getting the QB. Jones isn’t good but he’s not the reason why we have sucked for a decade. He’s been part of the problem.
But the main problem is finding a number of good players.
If people want to root against Daniel Jones that's their right. No one involved with the organization deserves any grace or benefit of the doubt.
If Banks and Papa want to be taken seriously they could try asking why the Giants are 67-111-1 in the last 11 seasons. Otherwise they're just doing a commercial for why fans should but tickets in 2024.
If people want to root against Daniel Jones that's their right. No one involved with the organization deserves any grace or benefit of the doubt.
If Banks and Papa want to be taken seriously they could try asking why the Giants are 67-111-1 in the last 11 seasons. Otherwise they're just doing a commercial for why fans should but tickets in 2024.
Perhaps they are saying what they are supposed to say in other podcasts, but I don't think this one applies. It certainly is the right of the fan to root how they want, absolutely. Similar to fans that want the Giants to succeed because of Jones not in spite of him.
I want him to throw for 5000 yards and 45 TDs and lead the Giants to a title.
I also want Tomon Fox to be the next Lawrence Taylor. And I want Eric Gray to be the next Barry Sanders.
Are we going to live in reality or in fantasy land?
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Eli was in noticeable decline as the 2016 season went along.
The Giants were 9-2 down the stretch in 2016 on the way to the playoffs and if you could see that Eli was in noticeable decline you should be working in the NFL because nobody else saw it and it only became part of the BBI narrative later.
Appreciate the compliment, but it actually wasn't something that any relatively astute fan that couldn't see. At least ones that loved and respected Eli for his accomplishments but still understood the overall scope of his career.
The 2016 NY Giants actually rode a Defense that was playing out of it's mind as the year went along, helped by the occasional 9-yard slant pass to OBJ who took it the distance. At whatever point in the game the Giants got a tiny lead, Eli went into conservative-mode with the offense and they hung on to win a ton of 1-score games. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but keep things in perspective as to how those games shook out.
I want him to throw for 5000 yards and 45 TDs and lead the Giants to a title.
I also want Tomon Fox to be the next Lawrence Taylor. And I want Eric Gray to be the next Barry Sanders.
Are we going to live in reality or in fantasy land?
Reality is:
- Fox is a back up.
- Gray is a back up
- Jones is the starter.
Also reality:
- What we want is irrelevant
- We can either root for the team, or against it
I was rooting for McCarthy, now I'm rooting for Jones.
Yeah, there clearly is.
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
I never intimated solely. Not a productive question to respond to anyway.
Depends if his next game in the playoffs is a dud ;)
I want him to throw for 5000 yards and 45 TDs and lead the Giants to a title.
I also want Tomon Fox to be the next Lawrence Taylor. And I want Eric Gray to be the next Barry Sanders.
Are we going to live in reality or in fantasy land?
I am a little confused how my post gets us to 'fantasy land'. Perhaps I failed to be clear what I meant. I meant fans that would want the Giants to succeed solely because of Jones because his valued higher than the Giants as a comparison to those who may want Jones to fail in regard to fans being able to root the way they want.
We're all rooting for the Giants to win. This current hell that we're living in sucks.
Maybe even longer.
- Uh oh...the OL sucks vs. Daniel Jones sucks
- Rooting for wins vs rooting for draft position
- No sure fire franchise QBs in this draft
- Prove it season for Daniel Jones
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In comment 16523411 ThomasG said:
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Eli was in noticeable decline as the 2016 season went along.
The Giants were 9-2 down the stretch in 2016 on the way to the playoffs and if you could see that Eli was in noticeable decline you should be working in the NFL because nobody else saw it and it only became part of the BBI narrative later.
Appreciate the compliment, but it actually wasn't something that any relatively astute fan that couldn't see. At least ones that loved and respected Eli for his accomplishments but still understood the overall scope of his career.
The 2016 NY Giants actually rode a Defense that was playing out of it's mind as the year went along, helped by the occasional 9-yard slant pass to OBJ who took it the distance. At whatever point in the game the Giants got a tiny lead, Eli went into conservative-mode with the offense and they hung on to win a ton of 1-score games. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but keep things in perspective as to how those games shook out.
He was running Ben McAdoo's Mickey Mouse offense, which was geared to do one thing - get Odell open on a slant. A young Johnny Unitas would struggle to excel in that situation.
Eli was really good in 2015, I find it hard to believe that his play went south that quickly. Maybe it was running McAdoo's offense without TC to force McAdoo to implement the most basic NFL schemes.
They should never be discussed in the same breath. One has HoF credentials and the other shouldn’t even be a starting QB on a below .500 team.
[quote] In comment 16522455 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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I just don’t get how people still don’t understand it. No one-as far as I know-is rooting for Jones to fail. I hope he goes out this fall & lights it up. I just don’t expect it.
It really is that simple.
It's fine to think this. What's the point of bothering anymore for you or anyone to keep saying it before you see it? There are half a dozen posts right above this one of yours in which people seem to believe the 2024 season is over already and Jones had failed. They virtually state it as a fact because the way they read his stats (selectively) tells them that. They can claim to be fans but I suspect that fans of other teams might be puzzled to be exposed to this sort of rationalization. [/quote
Ask fans of other teams about Daniel Jones and tell them you think he's good if you want to see puzzlement.
I hope he's the best QB in the league next year. I'm not holding my breath.
Noter re what other teams' fans might think of Daniel Jones, but that's not connected to the specific point I wanted to make. I was addressing the subject of the video and the question it raised of who's a "fan" or not based on the amount and nature of their public criticism of a player or management or ownership. I was just wondering what fans of other teams would make of the discussions here and in other social media. I do see that someone disagreed and felt that similarly intense discussions happen among other teams' fans. I suppose now that's probably true.
With regard to Jones, I don't think anyone can argue with hearing someone say this a few times: "I hope he's the best QB in the league next year. I'm not holding my breath." But it seems to me that for some folks here it took being challenged about whether they really are a fan or not to dial back to just that level of critique. And the way I see it, when someone can't resist publicly criticizing a player over and over again, in ongoing discussions, but then claims they can root for their personal analysis and expectations to be proven wrong by that player, that is probably just be after the fact rationalization.
I don't think one has to be a narcissist (suggested elsewhere) to prefer being proven correct rather than watching someone else's success trash their analysis. That's just human nature.
Anyway, that's why I'm rooting for DJ this year. I do not think he will have an above average season, though. I think he is generally not a good starter. I think he will make a very good backup QB, though.
Youre comparing a mercedes M class to a Kia.
Theyre not similar. No similar talent, no similar performances, no similar accomplishments. The only connecting line is they play the same position and have similar mannerisms.
But fans have been doing this for years: "eli struggled early on too".
Theyre not the same. Jones is wildly less talented at playing QB and always was.
Maybe? There is actually a timing aspect to negotiating a deal with a player, along with what the FO/Staff think his actual (healthy) ceiling is for their plans.
Maybe? There is actually a timing aspect to negotiating a deal with a player, along with what the FO/Staff think his actual (healthy) ceiling is for their plans.
OK let's put it this way. If Ojulari stays healthy this year, and has a good not great season, would you want the Giants to sign him to a 4/100M deal?
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If Azeez Ojulari stays healthy this year and has 10 sacks, and has a nice game in the playoffs, are the Giants going to make him the 7th highest paid pass rusher in the NFL?
Maybe? There is actually a timing aspect to negotiating a deal with a player, along with what the FO/Staff think his actual (healthy) ceiling is for their plans.
OK let's put it this way. If Ojulari stays healthy this year, and has a good not great season, would you want the Giants to sign him to a 4/100M deal?
I wouldn't care what they signed him for, because he is obviously high in the plans for the people running the team.
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If Azeez Ojulari stays healthy this year and has 10 sacks, and has a nice game in the playoffs, are the Giants going to make him the 7th highest paid pass rusher in the NFL?
Maybe? There is actually a timing aspect to negotiating a deal with a player, along with what the FO/Staff think his actual (healthy) ceiling is for their plans.
Ojulari needs to play at least a month in the regular season without showing up on the weekly injury list before anybody should care about too much about him.
Then perform at a higher level vs run and pass before anybody should call his agent with a limited floor-level offer.
And then finish the season strong before agreeing to a final deal.
What are the odds those things happen?
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
He’s will not trend to anything that matters until he stays off the injury list.
Not even close to being reievant. Hope that changes but not expecting much.
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My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
Well if you are referring to me I'll accept whatever IS. I'll reiterate for the 80 billionth time I don't give a half shit who is taking snaps from center. I want the Giants to build a competitive ROSTER. R-O-S-T-E-R. Especially along the OL and DL. The fact is DJ has had moments with a shit cast of OL and WR (especially OL, ESPECIALLY last year) where he looks good. I am not willing to completely give up on him yet, which is a completely different opinion here than all the people that "know" he sucks. It's that simple.
This type of player isn't typically signed to a mega deal. And in the unlikely event a team makes that mistake, they don't typically attack their fan base for being upset.
This type of player isn't typically signed to a mega deal. And in the unlikely event a team makes that mistake, they don't typically attack their fan base for being upset.
And my point is that QB is a unique position such that the market is fundamentally different. And neither fans nor franchises typically get so bent out of shape about this with other positions. Kenny Golladay got a huge contract, he sucked, and we cut him. It happens. The emotions here are incredibly high in part because it's a QB. Some of the irrational Jones love/defense, however, I really just don't understand and probably never will.
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Yeah, there clearly is.
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
I never intimated solely. Not a productive question to respond to anyway.
Stating that "fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing" does intimate that you might have felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. So I asked. I regret if it bothers you that I addressed your statement as a stand-alone comment and not in the context of the existing discussion. I appreciate Snorkels making it clear that you overstated the effect of Eli's "decline" by attempting to swipe away the viability of allowing for other factors.
So we supposedly have fans who want Jones to succeed more than they want the team to ... and other fans who feel success by Jones can only signal ongoing mediocrity at best for the team. Personally, I find it more tolerable, this time of year, to listen to the optimists. It only seems to take one or two DJ supporters to bring out a boatload of DJ critics (not that I'm carefully counting). I'm in the middle; I can wait and see what happens from this September into next January -- without then projecting what the effect of that will be farther down the road. It reminds me of my friend who came in to work in late January 1987 all worried about how winning the Super Bowl was likely to make things tough going forward. Thankfully, my emotional welfare doesn't require that the Giants be a perennial winner as long as they can be a fairly regular one.
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In comment 16523439 BronxBob said:
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Yeah, there clearly is.
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
I never intimated solely. Not a productive question to respond to anyway.
Stating that "fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing" does intimate that you might have felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. So I asked. I regret if it bothers you that I addressed your statement as a stand-alone comment and not in the context of the existing discussion. I appreciate Snorkels making it clear that you overstated the effect of Eli's "decline" by attempting to swipe away the viability of allowing for other factors.
So we supposedly have fans who want Jones to succeed more than they want the team to ... and other fans who feel success by Jones can only signal ongoing mediocrity at best for the team. Personally, I find it more tolerable, this time of year, to listen to the optimists. It only seems to take one or two DJ supporters to bring out a boatload of DJ critics (not that I'm carefully counting). I'm in the middle; I can wait and see what happens from this September into next January -- without then projecting what the effect of that will be farther down the road. It reminds me of my friend who came in to work in late January 1987 all worried about how winning the Super Bowl was likely to make things tough going forward. Thankfully, my emotional welfare doesn't require that the Giants be a perennial winner as long as they can be a fairly regular one.
My comment most certainly does not intimate that I felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. Nor do I think that way.
I also didn't overstate Eli's decline whether you and Snork think so doesn't follow the . Eli's decline was begun to be noticed in 2016 and dragged on for several painful years, mostly because of the inaction of several in the organization. In fact, as a big fan of Eli's, it was sad to watch while the franchise did basically nothing to address the QB situation until is was so late that they became desperate and panicked themselves into a poorly thought-out DJ decision in 2019. That was just after a poorly-thought out decision to put Gettleman in as GM.
And go right ahead and listen to the optimists, hang out in the middle and play the wait-and-see game. It is your right as a fan. The guys running this franchise probably love that based on what the little they have been able to produce on the field for the past decade plus.
Lastly, referring to the NY Giants a fairly regular winner made my afternoon. Keep that type of comedy coming!
This type of player isn't typically signed to a mega deal. And in the unlikely event a team makes that mistake, they don't typically attack their fan base for being upset.
And my point is that QB is a unique position such that the market is fundamentally different. And neither fans nor franchises typically get so bent out of shape about this with other positions. Kenny Golladay got a huge contract, he sucked, and we cut him. It happens. The emotions here are incredibly high in part because it's a QB. Some of the irrational Jones love/defense, however, I really just don't understand and probably never will.
I think the emotions are high because Jones was never the QB equivalent of what Golladay the WR was. At least Golladay had a couple of really standout years.
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The point isn't Ojulari. Substitute any player with an uneven track record, and an average performance in their contract year.
This type of player isn't typically signed to a mega deal. And in the unlikely event a team makes that mistake, they don't typically attack their fan base for being upset.
And my point is that QB is a unique position such that the market is fundamentally different. And neither fans nor franchises typically get so bent out of shape about this with other positions. Kenny Golladay got a huge contract, he sucked, and we cut him. It happens. The emotions here are incredibly high in part because it's a QB. Some of the irrational Jones love/defense, however, I really just don't understand and probably never will.
I think the emotions are high because Jones was never the QB equivalent of what Golladay the WR was. At least Golladay had a couple of really standout years.
I agree with your analysis of Jones' play. But I don't think it's just that. I've never seen anything like this in my years following NY sports. Maybe I'm not old enough, IDK.
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My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
That’s your problem if you care about what others think. Some of you people feel everyone has to agree with your opinion . Doesn’t work that way. You must be in your twenties.
Just maybe the 'real problem is that Daniel Jones has some tools and the potential to be at least a halfway decent NFL QB if given some talent to work with, but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it'
Yup. Says a lot about the people running the team.
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In comment 16523657 Mike from SI said: Quote: The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
Just maybe the 'real problem is that Daniel Jones has some tools and the potential to be at least a halfway decent NFL QB if given some talent to work with, but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it'
With the NFLs 6th highest cap hit at the position, I’d expect more than “halfway decent”.
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In comment 16523657 Mike from SI said: Quote: The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
Just maybe the 'real problem is that Daniel Jones has some tools and the potential to be at least a halfway decent NFL QB if given some talent to work with, but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it'
Quite the compliment. In year 6 you think maybe he has the potential to be halfway decent.
That comment alone means move on.
Man, this era of Giants football is so depressing.
Asshole, only description that fits.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
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In comment 16523650 christian said:
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My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
That’s your problem if you care about what others think. Some of you people feel everyone has to agree with your opinion . Doesn’t work that way. You must be in your twenties.
The entire focus of this thread is Papa & Banks commenting on what Giants fans are rooting for. In other words, this thread is explicitly about what others think. It doesn't affect my life in any way. But this is just an odd comment. And I'm not in my twenties although I wish I were.
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
"Must be in your twenties" is funny since a lot us have been on BBI either over twenty years or near it.
Some of us haven't even needed a new handle, imagine that?
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
"Must be in your twenties" is funny since a lot us have been on BBI either over twenty years or near it.
Some of us haven't even needed a new handle, imagine that?
Yup. I've been a daily user of BBI since I was 18 years olds. And I frequented the site before that, when I was in high school.
I've had the same handle and the same mediocre contributions for 25 years!
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
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In comment 16525630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
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In comment 16525641 Matt M. said:
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In comment 16525630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
We need better PRODUCERS from MANHATTAN. JINKIES!
Just because he's the quarterback doesn't make him any more special than any other player.
When the Giants have over-invested in the past on players like Solder and Golladay, fans were perfectly comfortable looking forward to the day those mistakes were in the rearview mirror. I view Daniel Jones the exact same way.
I'm in my 40s, am I allowed to think that?
Yes, apparently your age has given you enough wisdom to provide such analysis.
While I generally agree with your position, I do think the QB thing is part of what is driving the hysteria.
Yes, apparently your age has given you enough wisdom to provide such analysis.
While I generally agree with your position, I do think the QB thing is part of what is driving the hysteria.
Oh I completely agree. And I don't discount QB is an outsized emotional and practical impact because of the dollars.
But as we logically break apart the discussion, I think it's worth trying to extract the emotional part.
Re-read what I posted.
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In comment 16525630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Plenty of fans started off with the reasonable take, but were continually excoriated, bullied, and told how crappy of fans they were for not believing Daniel Jones was the answer. Yet those who still believe in Jones wonder why those who don't have such extreme takes after 5 years.
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It's far and away the most important factor to success. When a team doesn't have a QB, as the Giants don't, you can make the case that every other conversation is moot.
Re-read what I posted.
I don't have any disagreement with you, either in this thread or pretty much anything else you have posted. I just pulled this one idea out, because it does get repeated on occasion. The idea is that Jones gets picked on because he's the quarterback, and there are 21 other starters and 56 players, blah blah. And believe me I know you agree with me. Or you are close to what I am about to say.
I don't have the mathematical background to show how important QB is relative to the entire defense, or to the rest of the offense, or to the other 21 starters. This is why I mention Vegas so often when talking about this, because that is a 15 billion dollar industry that has given a number (in points) to the value of positions. But my instinct tells me the QB is worth more than the entire defense - assuming the defense has some bad players which negates some of the value of good players. And he is probably worth as much or more than the rest of the offense.
So I am just picking out this point and saying in general, when you don't have a quarterback, there is no amount of conversation that is outsized. It's the whole enchilada. In terms of Super Bowl aspirations, the 2024 Giants season is already over. Sure there will be thrills and lots to talk about, and maybe some good surprises. But we're not a SB contender, so ultimately this season is done before it has begun.
Riveting stuff.
Being employed by a team that sucks and having to try and remain positive is not easy.
Kill em all you want - but they are in a tough spot.
The "having to try and remain positive" is a Mara mandate, not a universal job responsibility. These guys could absolutely take a more balanced position if they were so inclined, and furthermore, they could also dish out criticism/excuses a bit more evenly.
Every single member of NYG State Media are in the position they're in because they're shills by nature, not the other way around. They didn't learn to become shills when they arrived; they promised to do it in their job interview, just like Gettleman did with keeping Eli. This is who they are, just like this is who this entire loser organization is.
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My point is Ojulari had an uneven first three years. If he has a nice, but well short of great season, no one will or call for him to be signed to a huge deal.
And in the event that improbable mistake were to happen, and he continued to have durability and consistency issues, no one would be defending the mistake.
That's an unfair comparison because QB is a much more unique position. And harder to find competent players. Hence why the market is different.
The real problem here is that Daniel Jones is just not that good but some people, for whatever reason, cannot accept it.
It's not just "harder," it's absolutely impossible to find competent players when you refuse to even draft any prospect at all at that position for six years.
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In comment 16525699 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16525641 Matt M. said:
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In comment 16525630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
We need better PRODUCERS from MANHATTAN. JINKIES!
That DEPends.
Is there any credible corroboration that this actually happened?
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In comment 16525641 Matt M. said:
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In comment 16525630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Who decides what is "reasonably critical of Jones"? Maybe you, ChrisRick? Jones is a highly paid quarterback for an NFL team. He is an athlete and a public figure. People get to say what they want about him. Athletes have suffered much worse public abuse than Daniel Jones has. Great athletes. I remember Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Where is the line? Jones is a terrible quarterback and the Giants have botched the position for going on 7 years. The Giants are on the brink of squandering an entire decade due to obstinance and incompetence. This team deserves to lose fans because of their mismanagement. Have I gone too far? Since you seem to think you and Banks are judge and jury, I will wait for your verdict.
I am confident you and I could agree pretty closely on what reasonable criticism of a player is. My intent was not to say who can say what is reasonable.
People absolutely get to say what they want, I never said any different and as far as I know neither did Papa nor Banks. I also am not arguing nor comparing the treatment of Daniel Jones vs other athletes.
Where is the line? To me, at the minimum leave out personal attacks of a player when critiquing their game. I would say if a fan wants Jones to fail just because they don't like him then they have crossed the line of taking it personal. I can see a difference from a pov of a fan hoping that if Jones fails this year, he fails enough for it to be an easy decision for the Giants to move on. You certainly do not have to believe these fans exist.
I think you are off base with your assumption that I think I am a judge of who can say what. I never said what you or anyone else can say. I posted on this thread because I saw this podcast differently than most. I did not see Papa and Banks criticizing all or even most Giants fans.
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In comment 16525641 Matt M. said:
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In comment 16525630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Is so small that it defies comprehesion that papa and banks would waste time while football camps are open to talk about it. There is a difference between expecting a poor result and cheering for it to happen.
They have been hostile to any fans who dare to be critical of the team for years, the whole franchise has been.
Thank you. I hate that so many take criticism as "rooting against" or "hate". There are very few Giants fans who want to see Jones fail. I have been overly critical of him, but as long as he is the QB, I hope he is lights out. And this goes for any player. I think overwhelmingly, any of us would rather be proven wrong about a player we are critical of than proven right. The latter is much more damaging to the team.
That said, for me, to be "proven wrong" about Jones, it has to be a significant improvement. A repeat of 2022 doesn't cut it for this team moving forward.
I have not seen any evidence that Papa and Banks are going after fans who are reasonably critical of Jones. I can't imagine if a fan said: "I don't think Jones is the answer at qb; yes his surroundings have not been ideal. However, I think given the amount of snaps we have seen from Jones with these surroundings, I feel I can safely say that Jones is not the answer at qb." Papa and Banks would classify that fan as the 'sector' of fans Banks was speaking of. If they did, then I would totally disagree. Again, to me, they are clearly talking about the seemingly growing number of fans who express their opinions of Jones in a personal tone or expressing their critical opinion as if that is the only opinion that is acceptable.
Plenty of fans started off with the reasonable take, but were continually excoriated, bullied, and told how crappy of fans they were for not believing Daniel Jones was the answer. Yet those who still believe in Jones wonder why those who don't have such extreme takes after 5 years.
I don't think it is good for any fans to behave the way you described above. I also don't think it is a good excuse to alter one's point of view from reasonable to unreasonable because of how they were treated by other fans.
There are def pro Jones fans that are unreasonable (my view of unreasonable to be clear) and aggressive with their takes towards other fans.
Many Jones discussions are simply tribes repeating the same thing over and over again.
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Yankee fans in the 70s shouting the N-word at Reggie Jackson at the Stadium.
Is there any credible corroboration that this actually happened?
I personally witnessed it and didn't bring a recorder with me, I was 12. It definitely happened. You are free to disbelieve my recollection. But it was "a fan", I shouldn't have said "fans". But if I heard it once it must have happened plenty of other times. I probably went to roughly 30 Yankee games in the 70s. There was a lot of bad behavior at Yankee Stadium in the 70s and Shea in the 80s.
The other thing you said never happened. You made it up.
I am confident you and I could agree pretty closely on what reasonable criticism of a player is. My intent was not to say who can say what is reasonable.
People absolutely get to say what they want, I never said any different and as far as I know neither did Papa nor Banks. I also am not arguing nor comparing the treatment of Daniel Jones vs other athletes.
Where is the line? To me, at the minimum leave out personal attacks of a player when critiquing their game. I would say if a fan wants Jones to fail just because they don't like him then they have crossed the line of taking it personal. I can see a difference from a pov of a fan hoping that if Jones fails this year, he fails enough for it to be an easy decision for the Giants to move on. You certainly do not have to believe these fans exist.
I think you are off base with your assumption that I think I am a judge of who can say what. I never said what you or anyone else can say. I posted on this thread because I saw this podcast differently than most. I did not see Papa and Banks criticizing all or even most Giants fans.
We probably agree on a lot of it. I don't like when people use unsavory and vitriolic language against other players or public figures. It creeps me out. and it happens on this board and all across social media plenty. I would prefer if people refrained from using highly insulting language.
And there is a lot of insulting language on this board directed at other posters, which I find juvenile, unnecessary, and depressing. I wonder why people feel so comfortable calling another poster a POS over a sports disagreement. Maybe because it is anonymous they feel it is somehow ok. But you see several posters who raise the volume to 11, when someone dares to say Jones is bad. Does that bother you? Because I think it is a bigger problem to flame a fellow poster with vitriol than to insult a 100 million dollar public figure.
The other thing you said never happened. You made it up.
I did not make it up. I heard the N-word shouted at Shea as well in the 80s. You may not like it, but I witnessed it. Thanks for calling me a liar.
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right now...they've got one of the hardest gigs in sports.
Being employed by a team that sucks and having to try and remain positive is not easy.
Kill em all you want - but they are in a tough spot.
The "having to try and remain positive" is a Mara mandate, not a universal job responsibility. These guys could absolutely take a more balanced position if they were so inclined, and furthermore, they could also dish out criticism/excuses a bit more evenly.
Every single member of NYG State Media are in the position they're in because they're shills by nature, not the other way around. They didn't learn to become shills when they arrived; they promised to do it in their job interview, just like Gettleman did with keeping Eli. This is who they are, just like this is who this entire loser organization is.
They may be shills. But I would bet that at various times they have said the OL is bad, the WRs are bad, the TEs are bad, the running game is bad, various parts of the D are bad. But there is one special guy who we can't say is bad.
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I am confident you and I could agree pretty closely on what reasonable criticism of a player is. My intent was not to say who can say what is reasonable.
People absolutely get to say what they want, I never said any different and as far as I know neither did Papa nor Banks. I also am not arguing nor comparing the treatment of Daniel Jones vs other athletes.
Where is the line? To me, at the minimum leave out personal attacks of a player when critiquing their game. I would say if a fan wants Jones to fail just because they don't like him then they have crossed the line of taking it personal. I can see a difference from a pov of a fan hoping that if Jones fails this year, he fails enough for it to be an easy decision for the Giants to move on. You certainly do not have to believe these fans exist.
I think you are off base with your assumption that I think I am a judge of who can say what. I never said what you or anyone else can say. I posted on this thread because I saw this podcast differently than most. I did not see Papa and Banks criticizing all or even most Giants fans.
We probably agree on a lot of it. I don't like when people use unsavory and vitriolic language against other players or public figures. It creeps me out. and it happens on this board and all across social media plenty. I would prefer if people refrained from using highly insulting language.
And there is a lot of insulting language on this board directed at other posters, which I find juvenile, unnecessary, and depressing. I wonder why people feel so comfortable calling another poster a POS over a sports disagreement. Maybe because it is anonymous they feel it is somehow ok. But you see several posters who raise the volume to 11, when someone dares to say Jones is bad. Does that bother you? Because I think it is a bigger problem to flame a fellow poster with vitriol than to insult a 100 million dollar public figure.
I honestly did not post on this thread because of how fans speak about Daniel Jones. I just thought some fans were being a bit unfair in regard to Banks and Papa.
I think you are right in some capacity regarding people having internet courage because of the anonymity.
I am not bothered as much about how other fans speak to each other as I am about how I speak to other fans or how they speak to me (I would like to care a lot less about how others speak to me, but life is a journey. :)
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistent. Engram never learned how to not volley the bally until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while DID Jones decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistently. Engram never learned how to not volley the ball until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while Jones DID decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
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I disagree with the premise of ‘toxicity’ re. Jones. ‘Toxicity’ implies to me that it is personal. It isn’t. It is solely based on him as a QB.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistent. Engram never learned how to not volley the bally until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while DID Jones decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
"Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done." Well, you said it definitively, so it must be true!
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I disagree with the premise of ‘toxicity’ re. Jones. ‘Toxicity’ implies to me that it is personal. It isn’t. It is solely based on him as a QB.
Which means with a competent supporting cast he can get the job done.
Jones has the best WR corp he ever had ON PAPER. Another swing at the OL repair. ON PAPER looks better than before with some evidence from previous play. A new OL coach, the GM alluded to that was the issue especially in regards to Neal. Even got some blocking TEs via FA to battle for that spot.
Jones spread the ball around trying to work the system and get the open guy the ball. He has to read the field to accomplish that. All the while with the likes of Golladay, Tate, Engram, Shep, Slayton, Waller, Robinson and Toney as the #1 guys at some point.
I have not forgotten the instant replays were literally no one was open more times than not. Slayton is not going to beat double teams consistently. Engram never learned how to not volley the ball until he left for Jacksonville. Golladay was a bust. Shep could not stay healthy & past his prime then resigned to be a rah-rah guy. Waller never stayed on the field and maybe never had his head fully on the game. Toney well we already know how that went. Robinson has yet to be healthy consistently but has flashed. Hyatt is showing promise.
All the while Jones DID decreased his INTs and fumbles. Those are things he can control. Catching and Blocking is out of scope for him.
Give him some blocking and a good WR corp the TDs will come as well.
Or maybe give the supporting cast a competent QB and they'll catch TDs and block better
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In comment 16523468 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16523439 BronxBob said:
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Yeah, there clearly is.
Much the same when Eli went into decline and some fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing.
Which games was Eli personally and solely responsible for us losing? Otherwise factoring in "other directions" would naturally still be in the discussion.
I never intimated solely. Not a productive question to respond to anyway.
Stating that "fans only looked in other directions to explain the losing" does intimate that you might have felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. So I asked. I regret if it bothers you that I addressed your statement as a stand-alone comment and not in the context of the existing discussion. I appreciate Snorkels making it clear that you overstated the effect of Eli's "decline" by attempting to swipe away the viability of allowing for other factors.
So we supposedly have fans who want Jones to succeed more than they want the team to ... and other fans who feel success by Jones can only signal ongoing mediocrity at best for the team. Personally, I find it more tolerable, this time of year, to listen to the optimists. It only seems to take one or two DJ supporters to bring out a boatload of DJ critics (not that I'm carefully counting). I'm in the middle; I can wait and see what happens from this September into next January -- without then projecting what the effect of that will be farther down the road. It reminds me of my friend who came in to work in late January 1987 all worried about how winning the Super Bowl was likely to make things tough going forward. Thankfully, my emotional welfare doesn't require that the Giants be a perennial winner as long as they can be a fairly regular one.
My comment most certainly does not intimate that I felt some losses were entirely Eli's responsibility. Nor do I think that way.
I also didn't overstate Eli's decline whether you and Snork think so doesn't follow the . Eli's decline was begun to be noticed in 2016 and dragged on for several painful years, mostly because of the inaction of several in the organization. In fact, as a big fan of Eli's, it was sad to watch while the franchise did basically nothing to address the QB situation until is was so late that they became desperate and panicked themselves into a poorly thought-out DJ decision in 2019. That was just after a poorly-thought out decision to put Gettleman in as GM.
And go right ahead and listen to the optimists, hang out in the middle and play the wait-and-see game. It is your right as a fan. The guys running this franchise probably love that based on what the little they have been able to produce on the field for the past decade plus.
Lastly, referring to the NY Giants a fairly regular winner made my afternoon. Keep that type of comedy coming!
I recommend you seek help. Your views are likely to cause stress that could actually kill you. Best of luck to you.
Take care.
But yes I called you liar about Yankee Stadium and Reggie. Maybe that's not fair. Maybe when you were 12 years old someone near you directed that at Reggie loudly enough for you to remember it. But it wasn't something that was ever reported or I've ever heard mentioned by anyone but you.
So if it happened, I'm sorry you had to hear that but as rough as the crowd was at Yankee Stadium in the 1970s I never personally heard or read about anything racial being directed at Reggie from Yankee fans.
Take care.
; - )