I agree. We have some talent. Comes down to OL mainly IMO. Ours was horrendous last year. Hopefully some vets and a new OL coach help. QB, whoever it is, will look a lot better if he has some time.
But they have better OL talent now than they’ve had in more than a decade. So, sure they have to prove it but at least they have a chance. Couldn’t say that before.
I think that's right. I've said all along, I think there is a wide range of outcomes for this team. God forbid Dexter goes down for an extended period, for example. But I do feel that last year we suffered more than our share of impactful injuries, so there's that. Plus, the way I look at it --nobody can anticipate all the question marks. Why not embrace the positive potential over walking around with our tail between our legs all the time? I do feel better about our current coach and GM than prior. These may not be the guys, I'm not guaranteeing they are. But the prior administration was much more clearly NOT the guys at a similar point, IMO. So I've elected to stay positive, by choice.
Is it negativity to carry an umbrella when the weatherman says it's going to rain? It is what it is.
It's been more or less your life's work to tell everyone how much the team sucks, at every opportunity. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what purpose you serve when the team is good. You're a broken car with one gear.
Is it negativity to carry an umbrella when the weatherman says it's going to rain? It is what it is.
It's been more or less your life's work to tell everyone how much the team sucks, at every opportunity. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what purpose you serve when the team is good. You're a broken car with one gear.
I think that's right. I've said all along, I think there is a wide range of outcomes for this team. God forbid Dexter goes down for an extended period, for example. But I do feel that last year we suffered more than our share of impactful injuries, so there's that. Plus, the way I look at it --nobody can anticipate all the question marks. Why not embrace the positive potential over walking around with our tail between our legs all the time? I do feel better about our current coach and GM than prior. These may not be the guys, I'm not guaranteeing they are. But the prior administration was much more clearly NOT the guys at a similar point, IMO. So I've elected to stay positive, by choice.
That’s fine as is your choice. While others may want to see at least a few tangible indicators that the team could be heading in a positive direction before simply embracing it.
And projecting less than positive doesn’t mean fans are typically walking around with their tails between their legs. I think that may be more reserved for those expecting and/or touting the presumptive positive and then watching the losses pile up again as matter of fact.
I know they aren't a contender, but I think that is way low.
is more talented than people think. Except at the QB position. And that is what will hold them back.
Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
Being clearly better at all position groups isn't a prereq for a good team (though it helps). Having good players (on the field, not in the training room), well coached, with a few impact players in key roles-- all playing fundamentally sound ball -- is what makes a good team.
This time last season the Giants were a playoff team with precisely that. Then the debacle of last season happened; player evaluation either uses that baseline, or treats it more a can-go/will-go wrong mulligan with (frustratingly) little to learn (player-wise) because the overall circumstances preclude fairly rating most players.
It's not baseball -- players don't stand at the plate by themselves. Even then, their NY brethren the Yankees show how one impact player, a few piece parts with the right intangibles, and a dose of anger at last season can change everything.
A year from now the same players in the same position groups may indeed be clearly better than most others. That's not even a stretch, but also impossible to rationally aver.
Tells you all you need to know of their rankings. They are 16-35 over the last 3 seasons and had a 7-10 record last year (1 more win than the giants), but they are 15th?
is more talented than people think. Except at the QB position. And that is what will hold them back.
Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
Being clearly better at all position groups isn't a prereq for a good team (though it helps). Having good players (on the field, not in the training room), well coached, with a few impact players in key roles-- all playing fundamentally sound ball -- is what makes a good team.
This time last season the Giants were a playoff team with precisely that. Then the debacle of last season happened; player evaluation either uses that baseline, or treats it more a can-go/will-go wrong mulligan with (frustratingly) little to learn (player-wise) because the overall circumstances preclude fairly rating most players.
It's not baseball -- players don't stand at the plate by themselves. Even then, their NY brethren the Yankees show how one impact player, a few piece parts with the right intangibles, and a dose of anger at last season can change everything.
A year from now the same players in the same position groups may indeed be clearly better than most others. That's not even a stretch, but also impossible to rationally aver.
All very true. And the hope of a new season is upon us.
That's surprising. Based on everything the media has been saying about the Giants these past five months, most of us would've predicted that The Athletic placed us in their top ten, right?
Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
Let's say, for the sake of argument, you're right about ER being a position group that's above average. Now add in the potential for our WR group to be above average if Malik Nabers is the real deal, Wan'Dale Robinson has a healthy year, and Hyatt develops as hoped. Well, pass-rushing and pass-cathing are two of the most important position groups in the NFL given it's a passing league. If the pass-rusher and pass-catchers are complemented by an average OL position group and an average back seven, that's the makings of a pretty good team if our QB plays well. And contrary to the haters and the lovers, Daniel Jones remains a mystery man. As demonstrated by his 2022 season, he is at worst, a competent game manager, but the potential is there for him to be more than that given an average OL and an above average WR group (compared to the pathetic OL and WR groups that he carried on his back in 2022).
p.s.--People discount his road playoff victory over the Vikings in 2022 because they poo-poo the Vikings pass-defense, but if you factor in our dogshit OL and WRs, you could argue that that's what you get from Daniel Jones in a fair fight. With an OL that can keep him from constantly running for his life and receivers that even top defenses need to actually gameplan against, it will be interesting to see how Jones performs...if he can stay healthy.
Daniel Jones remains a mystery man. As demonstrated by his 2022 season, he is at worst, a competent game manager
2022 didn't tell us anything about DJ's worst. It told us everything about DJ's best.
DJ's worst was on full display in 2020, 2021, 2023.
Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
Expecting a winning record is setting yourself up for disappointment. Having the worst QB room in the league doesn’t help either. I think we’re headed to a 4-6 win finish, per usual.
Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Please point out an example of my "DJ-worship" (defending someone is different from worshiping them).
Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Please point out an example of my "DJ-worship" (defending someone is different from worshiping them).
You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
You have zero credibility when it comes to DJ. None.
"What if he's just a really good QB like Daniel Jones or Eli Manning (who will win you a couple of Super Bowls and occasionally make the Pro Bowl) and not another Tom Brady or Peyton Manning (who will be first ballot Hall of Famers)?"
If it were good I'd say it's good. Your fantasy world is boring, and it's been boring for a decade.
It is what it is. You want to pretend it's something else, go ahead. But not everyone is going to sign up for your bedtime story.
Fantasy world? LOL. I've very clearly stated that there is a broad range of outcomes for this team. Maybe they will be bad, and maybe they won't, I've said as much. I can see both sides of the coin and acknowledge the reasons for each. You don't possess that capacity. Not only will GoTerp anticipate the negative, which would be perfectly fair, but he will be relentlessly certain of it. And repeat it, over and over.
You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
a) I didn't/don't worship Eli; b) the comment you are referring to was a sarcastic reply to Go Terps (re: two talking heads naming Jones as the worst case scenario for Trevor Lawrence).
I think that's right. I've said all along, I think there is a wide range of outcomes for this team. God forbid Dexter goes down for an extended period, for example. But I do feel that last year we suffered more than our share of impactful injuries, so there's that. Plus, the way I look at it --nobody can anticipate all the question marks. Why not embrace the positive potential over walking around with our tail between our legs all the time? I do feel better about our current coach and GM than prior. These may not be the guys, I'm not guaranteeing they are. But the prior administration was much more clearly NOT the guys at a similar point, IMO. So I've elected to stay positive, by choice.
That’s fine as is your choice. While others may want to see at least a few tangible indicators that the team could be heading in a positive direction before simply embracing it.
And projecting less than positive doesn’t mean fans are typically walking around with their tails between their legs. I think that may be more reserved for those expecting and/or touting the presumptive positive and then watching the losses pile up again as matter of fact.
That is fair Thomas. I was not saying others have tail between legs, so much as I was indicating that I choose not to. It's a personal choice in disposition given the absence of of certainty one way or another, if that makes sense.
You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
a) I didn't/don't worship Eli; b) the comment you are referring to was a sarcastic reply to Go Terps (re: two talking heads naming Jones as the worst case scenario for Trevor Lawrence).
Maybe it's time for some self-reflection on your part then, because your supposedly sarcastic DJ posts and your genuinely sincere DJ posts are impossible to separate from one another.
And I don't think you were being sarcastic anyway.
If it were good I'd say it's good. Your fantasy world is boring, and it's been boring for a decade.
It is what it is. You want to pretend it's something else, go ahead. But not everyone is going to sign up for your bedtime story.
Fantasy world? LOL. I've very clearly stated that there is a broad range of outcomes for this team. Maybe they will be bad, and maybe they won't, I've said as much. I can see both sides of the coin and acknowledge the reasons for each. You don't possess that capacity. Not only will GoTerp anticipate the negative, which would be perfectly fair, but he will be relentlessly certain of it. And repeat it, over and over.
The "broad range of outcomes" isn't particularly broad.
The ceiling is 2022 - everything goes right, squeak into the playoffs and get destroyed by the first good team they play. The floor is the worst team in the league. That "broad range of outcomes" is actually just a function of parity. Optimistic fans of the Panthers and Patriots can make the same arguments this offseason, too.
I'm actually optimistic too. I've got the Giants at 7-10, and not 3-14.
Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
You're spot on. Just like flat earthers, people can ignore '22 all they want and toss in conspiracy theories about how Daboll/Schoen were forced to give Jones a deal rather than accepting facts borne by actual stats and film: his '22 performance in literally EVERYTHING under his control - accuracy on target, turnovers, yards per run, total running yards, was excellent, and his overall passing numbers were average (as a #14 QBR would suggest).
If '22 says he's "just a game manager" it was exactly the kind of game manager you can win a SB with. Led the league in accuracy and lowest TO rate. And was amongst the leaders and all rushing categories. He can't block rushers or throw to himself.
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Maybe it's time for some self-reflection on your part then, because your supposedly sarcastic DJ posts and your genuinely sincere DJ posts are impossible to separate from one another.
And I don't think you were being sarcastic anyway.
If you look at the comment and what I was responding to, I'd have to be clueless to have been anything but sarcastic because I wasn't offering my own opinion of Jones, I was interpreting what the two talking heads meant by Jones being the worst case scenario for Trevor Lawrence.
p.s.--I realize I'm opening myself up to all kinds of ridicule with "I'd have to be clueless"
We are not a contender. It's very hard to have a contender with a QB as bad as Daniel. It's virtually impossible to build a contender while paying a QB as bad as Daniel $46 M.
Could we come out on the good side of some close games and win 9 games? Sure, that's in the range of outcomes. Unfortunately if that happens, it means we are saddled with Daniel for 1, probably 2, more years. And if you play it forward, it essentially foreclosures on the Giants being a contender until about 2029 at the earliest.
Sad, boring, bleak times for Giants fans. But at least we are securing the financial future of a nice young man who is easy to root for.
Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
You're spot on. Just like flat earthers, people can ignore '22 all they want and toss in conspiracy theories about how Daboll/Schoen were forced to give Jones a deal rather than accepting facts borne by actual stats and film: his '22 performance in literally EVERYTHING under his control - accuracy on target, turnovers, yards per run, total running yards, was excellent, and his overall passing numbers were average (as a #14 QBR would suggest).
If '22 says he's "just a game manager" it was exactly the kind of game manager you can win a SB with. Led the league in accuracy and lowest TO rate. And was amongst the leaders and all rushing categories. He can't block rushers or throw to himself.
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
I think that maybe the Cowboys who haven't won a Super Bowl in almost three decades - in fact they haven't won a non-Wild Card playoff game in that period - maybe should be more focused on their own house!
You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
a) I didn't/don't worship Eli; b) the comment you are referring to was a sarcastic reply to Go Terps (re: two talking heads naming Jones as the worst case scenario for Trevor Lawrence).
Maybe it's time for some self-reflection on your part then, because your supposedly sarcastic DJ posts and your genuinely sincere DJ posts are impossible to separate from one another.
And I don't think you were being sarcastic anyway.
Fanboy Milton is an easy read. If Jones never pans out, well, all of his praises were always meant to be sarcasm.
I think that's right. I've said all along, I think there is a wide range of outcomes for this team. God forbid Dexter goes down for an extended period, for example. But I do feel that last year we suffered more than our share of impactful injuries, so there's that. Plus, the way I look at it --nobody can anticipate all the question marks. Why not embrace the positive potential over walking around with our tail between our legs all the time? I do feel better about our current coach and GM than prior. These may not be the guys, I'm not guaranteeing they are. But the prior administration was much more clearly NOT the guys at a similar point, IMO. So I've elected to stay positive, by choice.
That’s fine as is your choice. While others may want to see at least a few tangible indicators that the team could be heading in a positive direction before simply embracing it.
And projecting less than positive doesn’t mean fans are typically walking around with their tails between their legs. I think that may be more reserved for those expecting and/or touting the presumptive positive and then watching the losses pile up again as matter of fact.
That is fair Thomas. I was not saying others have tail between legs, so much as I was indicating that I choose not to. It's a personal choice in disposition given the absence of of certainty one way or another, if that makes sense.
Thw problem is that they have been bad for so many years - you can't blame the negativity. And in this case there has to be a reminder that Jones has been injury prone and that his mobility is probably less too.
Also, we hav a pro evaluator here named SY - who has said since early on - Jones is slow to read. He had a terrific RB in which he could also run well. Those are both gone-- now a better OL (not sure if it will be better in re to run blocking vs 2022 in that Giants are going to look to open things up more vs "pound") but better but now you may have a QB becoming more exposed to have to play to his weakness.
All-in-all that might not be good. i expect 6-7 wins. If things crash as low as 4 - if some mini-end of game extreme moments- up to 9. Part of the numbers are that Jones has the possibility - higher than most/nearly all qbs -- of getting hurt.
Being positive despite all this just seems a leap too far. And just because the OL is better doesn't mean it's good. It could be average or sub par. If its' good obviously 7+ feaisble depending on Jones / health etc.
If push came to shove I would go with under 6.5 wins. In a passing league our QB has more limited scrambling and is more injury prone and won't have as much of a running game in which he isn't that great of an overal "reader;" - that doesn't leave me with a good feeling.
Team won 6 games last year with a rough schedule and a pretty bad QB situation and a shitload of injuries, i think they are closer than some might realize.
We have 2 interrelated types of suboptimal fans on this board.
(1) "Being a fan" means blind or irrational optimism, and the related idea that pessimism/realism = not being a good fan.
(2) People who are so convinced of their knowledge that they root for the Giants to lose to bring about their desired outcome of roster/front office construction.
I think there's more (1) than (2) here, but I find both types of fans grating at times.
The defense will be fairly solid I think. The success of the team and playoff chances will depend on how Jones and the OL fair. If they can be a good offense, combined with the schedule being easier this year, I like their wildcard chances.
Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
Let's say, for the sake of argument, you're right about ER being a position group that's above average. Now add in the potential for our WR group to be above average if Malik Nabers is the real deal, Wan'Dale Robinson has a healthy year, and Hyatt develops as hoped. Well, pass-rushing and pass-cathing are two of the most important position groups in the NFL given it's a passing league. If the pass-rusher and pass-catchers are complemented by an average OL position group and an average back seven, that's the makings of a pretty good team if our QB plays well. And contrary to the haters and the lovers, Daniel Jones remains a mystery man. As demonstrated by his 2022 season, he is at worst, a competent game manager, but the potential is there for him to be more than that given an average OL and an above average WR group (compared to the pathetic OL and WR groups that he carried on his back in 2022).
p.s.--People discount his road playoff victory over the Vikings in 2022 because they poo-poo the Vikings pass-defense, but if you factor in our dogshit OL and WRs, you could argue that that's what you get from Daniel Jones in a fair fight. With an OL that can keep him from constantly running for his life and receivers that even top defenses need to actually gameplan against, it will be interesting to see how Jones performs...if he can stay healthy.
1-- An injury prone QB.
2--- A QB known to be slow to read.
3-- A QB whose best success has been his ability to use his legs which are now compromised to a degree.
I wouldn't call this position- the most important position on the field as "avaerage" while looking to put a positive spin on things.
Team won 6 games last year with a rough schedule and a pretty bad QB situation and a shitload of injuries, i think they are closer than some might realize.
I think people are downplaying the loss of Barkley. That has to be accounted for along with Mckinney.
To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what purpose you serve when the team is good.
I hope some day the Giants provide an opportunity for us to find out!
Me too. I don't understand the posters that get angry when you just observe existing conditions.
Uber said it himself: he's making the choice to be positive. He isn't being objective. That's a completely fine way to be, but not everyone is going to be that.
Objectively, this team can, with average injury and "bounce of the ball" luck reasonably be expected to be well into the bottom half of the league. With good luck they can be middle of the league. With bad luck they can be among the very worst in the league. What they can't be is among the very best in the league.
People with no skin in the game are making the same observation. It isn't offensive.
Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
You're spot on. Just like flat earthers, people can ignore '22 all they want and toss in conspiracy theories about how Daboll/Schoen were forced to give Jones a deal rather than accepting facts borne by actual stats and film: his '22 performance in literally EVERYTHING under his control - accuracy on target, turnovers, yards per run, total running yards, was excellent, and his overall passing numbers were average (as a #14 QBR would suggest).
If '22 says he's "just a game manager" it was exactly the kind of game manager you can win a SB with. Led the league in accuracy and lowest TO rate. And was amongst the leaders and all rushing categories. He can't block rushers or throw to himself.
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence.
Personally I take these pre-season prognostications with a grain of salt. Its why they actually play the games. I also come at from the perspective of someone who played sports for a good part of their life and even coached a little bit at a modestly high level. And as a player or coach you always go into a season with some optimism because I can guarantee that if you go into a season thinking that you suck; that you're awful you will be!
And I'm going into this season basically cautiously optimistic. No question the Giants went thru a dismal stretch especially 2017 thru 2021 when they were what 22-59. But they were 16-19-1 the past two years including a playoff appearance. There's also no question that they are slowly, but surely building a core of good young players. As several people have noted it takes time; the Giants didn't win a SB under George Young until his 8th year (and in fact were something like 26-46 in his first 5 years and 3-12-1 in his 5th!) So I doubt that the Giants are true 'contenders' this year but thinking they could be 2-3 years out from a disaster is just totally unrealistic.
And needless to say there is still work to be done. First and foremost to resolve the QB issue, firstly by finding out once and for all whether Jones is the guy; if not either thru the draft or finding a vet in the draft or free agency.
In the meantime, I kind of feel sorry for all the naysayers who are missing out on one of the most fascinating parts of the whole team-building process.
In the meantime, I kind of feel sorry for all the naysayers who are missing out on one of the most fascinating parts of the whole team-building process.
You do get that by debating these topics, the naysayers are in point-of-fact not missing out on this fascinating part, right?
How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence.
Personally I take these pre-season prognostications with a grain of salt. Its why they actually play the games. I also come at from the perspective of someone who played sports for a good part of their life and even coached a little bit at a modestly high level. And as a player or coach you always go into a season with some optimism because I can guarantee that if you go into a season thinking that you suck; that you're awful you will be!
And I'm going into this season basically cautiously optimistic. No question the Giants went thru a dismal stretch especially 2017 thru 2021 when they were what 22-59. But they were 16-19-1 the past two years including a playoff appearance. There's also no question that they are slowly, but surely building a core of good young players. As several people have noted it takes time; the Giants didn't win a SB under George Young until his 8th year (and in fact were something like 26-46 in his first 5 years and 3-12-1 in his 5th!) So I doubt that the Giants are true 'contenders' this year but thinking they could be 2-3 years out from a disaster is just totally unrealistic.
And needless to say there is still work to be done. First and foremost to resolve the QB issue, firstly by finding out once and for all whether Jones is the guy; if not either thru the draft or finding a vet in the draft or free agency.
In the meantime, I kind of feel sorry for all the naysayers who are missing out on one of the most fascinating parts of the whole team-building process.
I've disagreed a ton with both guys you mentioned. A ton. But that aside - you have to recognized that you are not a coach for the Giants. You're on a site discussing "team."
You’re not the catch so why you think bringing up how your team "feels" going into a season and relating it to this team on this discussion board is completely irrelevant. If many feel a player or team is not good - how is it remotely relevant that you felt a need to repress your preseason optimism when you were/ or are a coach?
Bottom-line is that you are doing the same think you accuse the haters (maybe if you want to include me) as you imply/claim it gets tiring to hear all the complaints. Well it gets tiring when posters such as yourself make the comment as you did in your 2nd to last paragraph with "once and for all . . ." How many more years are we going to hear this same tired phrase from you Joens-deniers?
Then your last paragraph just adds to the craziness- that you feel sorry for those that can't enjoy team building. I just question whether what you say is maybe not team building but more like team cheerleading. I am not sorry at all for not being a team cheerleader esepcially when the tean has been overall so poor for so long.
And your comment is the same type of comment we probably heard from the years-past Dave Gettlmen crowd. - Please please no more "Once and for all . . ."
How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role.
You're an even bigger loser than DJ, and just as much of a loser as you were when you were Snablats, dupe.
Expecting a winning record is setting yourself up for disappointment. Having the worst QB room in the league doesn’t help either. I think we’re headed to a 4-6 win finish, per usual.
They face the AFC North who will be difficult. But the rest isnt anything remotely scary. No Detroit or San Francisco on the list. Do we recall how shit Philadelphia looked last year in the second half? The Giants will be bad based on that info but the Eagles get a restart and will have no problems being a top team? They did lose two key figures to their lines, still have been lucky with injuries on the OL and you never know what that can change. Defense is a work in progress and lost their best pass rusher (Reddick). Corner for them is, again, a huge question mark.
So yes, outside the AFC North, the rest are beatable if Daboll can get his guys properly prepared and they can be relatively healthy. Maybe not a playoff team but I don't see them winning 4-6 games, either, especially if their key guys stay healthy.
What I am saying is that I believe there are legitimate rational cases
To be made reflecting both a positive and negative outlook for the up coming season. Often people favor one side and dismiss the other. I personally think it would be hard to confidently predict which sets of factors will prove most substantial and ultimately decide the outcome. I certainly don't mean to discredit anyone with a stronger conviction. My choice to embrace the favorable outcome has more to do with the fact that there has been such negativity around the team for so long and in my gut I do feel we are in a better spot with the current regime than the prior. How much so remains to be seen. So I'm going to be open to the possibility of positive outcome even though I can't claim that that side necessarily has the stronger argument. That's just how I've chosen to approach it, though I do get why others take the opposite.
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
Your football expertise is truly awesome. </s>
Jones was #6 overall in 2022 passer rating -- which doesn't factor in rushing.
He was #13 in ESPN total QB rating "ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (Total QBR), which was released in 2011, has never claimed to be perfect, but unlike other measures of quarterback performance, it incorporates all of a quarterback’s contributions to winning, including how he impacts the game on passes, rushes, turnovers and penalties. "
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
Your football expertise is truly awesome. </s>
Jones was #6 overall in 2022 passer rating -- which doesn't factor in rushing.
He was #13 in ESPN total QB rating "ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (Total QBR), which was released in 2011, has never claimed to be perfect, but unlike other measures of quarterback performance, it incorporates all of a quarterback’s contributions to winning, including how he impacts the game on passes, rushes, turnovers and penalties. "
Jones was 6 in QBR, QBR factors rushing. You are confusing QBR and QB rating
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
Your football expertise is truly awesome. </s>
Jones was #6 overall in 2022 passer rating -- which doesn't factor in rushing.
He was #13 in ESPN total QB rating "ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (Total QBR), which was released in 2011, has never claimed to be perfect, but unlike other measures of quarterback performance, it incorporates all of a quarterback’s contributions to winning, including how he impacts the game on passes, rushes, turnovers and penalties. "
You are mistaken. He was 14th in passer rating. He was a miserable 24th in Y/A. And even more miserable 28th in TD%. He was basically a one read and dash QB, who was afraid of anything downfield. and then good defenses took the dash component away and the Giants went 3-6-1 after a good start.
Here are more stats for you to ponder. His sack rate in 2022 was 26th. Y/G 25th.
Only 6.1 percent of Jones’ pass attempts traveled at least 20 yards in the air in 2022, the 33rd-highest rate in the league. He ranked 32nd in 2021 at 5.9 percent.
Jones’ average pass traveled 3.1 yards short of the first down markers in 2022, which ranked 34th. His average pass traveled 2.7 yards short of the sticks in 2021, which ranked 32nd.
Jones' averaged 6.4 air yards per attempt in 2022, which ranked 30th. He had the same average 2021, which ranked 32nd.
He's not a good passer, and 2022, his good season shows a QB who got away with playing scared for a little while before defenses figured him out. He can't, and won't, challenge defenses, attack them where it really matters. He will continue to dink and dunk. And Jones cultists like yourself will continue to tell us we are watching a talented QB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I think this team
He had an extremely low turnover rate, which pumped up his rating #s. Part of that is being careful and conservative. Part is just good luck though. Even being extremely conservative and careful, you'll still run into some bad bounces and random plays that result in TOs.
You can't rely on never turning it over as the foundation of your offense.
He had an extremely low turnover rate, which pumped up his rating #s. Part of that is being careful and conservative. Part is just good luck though. Even being extremely conservative and careful, you'll still run into some bad bounces and random plays that result in TOs.
You can't rely on never turning it over as the foundation of your offense.
Agreed on all counts. But I also think it was -- rightfully -- a point of emphasis. Turnovers are always costly, but without explosive playmakers they're deadly.
If you look into the 2022 stats it tells quite a story. Here are the Giants' league rankings in the following offensive stats:
Total number of plays run: 13th
Rush attempts: 8th
Pass attempts: 25th
Yards/Rush Attempt: 5th
Yards/Pass Attempt: 24th
Intended air yards/pass attempt: 30th
Pass TD%: 26th
Pass Int%: 1st (meaning lowest percentage of intercepted passed in the league)
In sum, here's the 2022 Giants passing offense, in an image:
Then when they tried to put a little more on Jones in 2023, we got this:
Daniel Jones wasn't a good passer in 2022. He was a good runner. And now he's recovering from a torn ACL.
Jones' performance in '22-solid, not speculator-tells me more that Dabs is a good coach than it tells me anything re. Jones.
Thank you for proving my case: (from above) Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence. and now give all the credit to the coach. Anything but hey the guy played pretty well that year without much around him. And on and on and on they go!!
"We did win that year with Jones playing a huge role"
My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
Love you guys!! You holler that 'we don't post any of that kind of shit you accuse us of' and then you go out and post a lot of that kind of shit!!
My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
Love you guys!! You holler that 'we don't post any of that kind of shit you accuse us of' and then you go out and post a lot of that kind of shit!!
I am in the GT camp, with some caveats...Jones wasn't special in '22, but I also don't think he was a backseat passenger that season. He had his moments. That said, again I think a lot of his success in '22 can be attributed to Dabs/Kafka game planning-RPOs, having him take off if the first option wasn't there, & playing it very conservatively.
& let's face it...he was awful in '23. & I know the OL sucked-I'm not going to dispute that-but he wasn't good either & when one is making $40 million...the excuses go out the window.
I legit believe this is a make or break season for him. If he sucks, he's gone. If he shines-& I hope he does because it'll mean the Giants are in all likelihood good-he'll be back in '25. Gun to head, I'm expecting the former, but I hope to be proven wrong.
You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
a) I didn't/don't worship Eli; b) the comment you are referring to was a sarcastic reply to Go Terps (re: two talking heads naming Jones as the worst case scenario for Trevor Lawrence).
Man, that's damn good sarcasm. You'd never know if you didn't tell us.
I think that's right. I've said all along, I think there is a wide range of outcomes for this team. God forbid Dexter goes down for an extended period, for example. But I do feel that last year we suffered more than our share of impactful injuries, so there's that. Plus, the way I look at it --nobody can anticipate all the question marks. Why not embrace the positive potential over walking around with our tail between our legs all the time? I do feel better about our current coach and GM than prior. These may not be the guys, I'm not guaranteeing they are. But the prior administration was much more clearly NOT the guys at a similar point, IMO. So I've elected to stay positive, by choice.
That’s fine as is your choice. While others may want to see at least a few tangible indicators that the team could be heading in a positive direction before simply embracing it.
And projecting less than positive doesn’t mean fans are typically walking around with their tails between their legs. I think that may be more reserved for those expecting and/or touting the presumptive positive and then watching the losses pile up again as matter of fact.
That is fair Thomas. I was not saying others have tail between legs, so much as I was indicating that I choose not to. It's a personal choice in disposition given the absence of of certainty one way or another, if that makes sense.
Ok Uber. Let's move on as to our personal choices of being a NYG fan.
Jones' performance in '22-solid, not speculator-tells me more that Dabs is a good coach than it tells me anything re. Jones.
Thank you for proving my case: (from above) Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence. and now give all the credit to the coach. Anything but hey the guy played pretty well that year without much around him. And on and on and on they go!!
Post of the Day winner in my book. Congrats!
If it is fact that the Giants won in 2022 with DJ playing a huge role, will you stipulate that he also plays a huge role in the more-frequent losing over his career? Or does it only go one-way?
My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
My recollection is the we won enough games to make the playoffs and then won a playoff game - leading to our 3rd deepest playoff run in over 20 years. I can also recall going 10-3-1 against all teams other than Philly and Dallas.
My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
My recollection is the we won enough games to make the playoffs and then won a playoff game - leading to our 3rd deepest playoff run in over 20 years. I can also recall going 10-3-1 against all teams other than Philly and Dallas.
Seems like a good year to me.
That's because our standards for the Giants are on the floor.
RE: The good thing about all the back and forth speculation...
Is that in the end, we'll have an answer, one way or another. One side will be right, and the other will be wrong.
The end of this season we’ll have an answer to what? In the past 5 years we’ve changed everything out with this franchise other than the owner and the starting QB and the net outcome has barely changed.
But this is the season where some epiphany happens as to right versus wrong?
My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
My recollection is the we won enough games to make the playoffs and then won a playoff game - leading to our 3rd deepest playoff run in over 20 years. I can also recall going 10-3-1 against all teams other than Philly and Dallas.
Seems like a good year to me.
We’ll always have Minnesota Joe.
RE: RE: The good thing about all the back and forth speculation...
Is that in the end, we'll have an answer, one way or another. One side will be right, and the other will be wrong.
The end of this season we’ll have an answer to what? In the past 5 years we’ve changed everything out with this franchise other than the owner and the starting QB and the net outcome has barely changed.
But this is the season where some epiphany happens as to right versus wrong?
WTF are you talking about. If you take the past 5 years the Giants were 14-35 in the first three years of that period; in the last two they were 16-19-1. If you'd take the blinders off you'd realize that things have gotten better. We're not there yet but we're getting there.
RE: RE: The good thing about all the back and forth speculation...
Is that in the end, we'll have an answer, one way or another. One side will be right, and the other will be wrong.
The end of this season we’ll have an answer to what? In the past 5 years we’ve changed everything out with this franchise other than the owner and the starting QB and the net outcome has barely changed.
But this is the season where some epiphany happens as to right versus wrong?
Um... This administration with a new coaching staff and nearly a complete turnover of the roster is 1-1 in terms of good seasons verses bad. You're obviously convinced they are going to suck. Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong. But we are going to find out.
My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
My recollection is the we won enough games to make the playoffs and then won a playoff game - leading to our 3rd deepest playoff run in over 20 years. I can also recall going 10-3-1 against all teams other than Philly and Dallas.
Seems like a good year to me.
That's because our standards for the Giants are on the floor.
True. But being one of the last 8 teams standing isn’t a bad year, especially for a low talent roster.
Some things went well for us and DJ’s overall play absolutely contributed positivity.
We have a sense of which teams are good and which aren't. If you can find any betting site that has each team in the league at 32:1 odds to win the Super Bowl, please share it so that we can bet the good teams with a chance at those odds.
Most places I look have the Giants at 150-1 to win the Super Bowl. That's a great bet if you think they have the same chance as the Chiefs, 49ers, etc.
will probably look something like this. Daniel plays 14 games. In most of them he throws for around 200 yards, 1 TD, and 0.5 INTs on a steady diet of short, conservative passes. He has a few good games and a few stinkers. There are a handful of injuries along the OL and WRs. We win 7 games and Daniel and Nabers have 1 really good game late in the year.
We are in position to draft a stud RT. If we shore up some weaknesses and get some better health, we'll see a real Make or Break Year in 2025.
RE: RE: RE: The good thing about all the back and forth speculation...
Is that in the end, we'll have an answer, one way or another. One side will be right, and the other will be wrong.
The end of this season we’ll have an answer to what? In the past 5 years we’ve changed everything out with this franchise other than the owner and the starting QB and the net outcome has barely changed.
But this is the season where some epiphany happens as to right versus wrong?
Um... This administration with a new coaching staff and nearly a complete turnover of the roster is 1-1 in terms of good seasons verses bad. You're obviously convinced they are going to suck. Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong. But we are going to find out.
I am not convinced the Giants are going to suck. They will beat some teams here and there but not much else.
I am convinced however that they aren’t going anywhere sans an upgrade at QB. And I don’t know how that happens when they continue to pass on drafting one and keep putting non-solutions to the problem out on the field.
They are not a contender without a major upgrade at QB
Is that in the end, we'll have an answer, one way or another. One side will be right, and the other will be wrong.
The end of this season we’ll have an answer to what? In the past 5 years we’ve changed everything out with this franchise other than the owner and the starting QB and the net outcome has barely changed.
But this is the season where some epiphany happens as to right versus wrong?
WTF are you talking about. If you take the past 5 years the Giants were 14-35 in the first three years of that period; in the last two they were 16-19-1. If you'd take the blinders off you'd realize that things have gotten better. We're not there yet but we're getting there.
You just described two losing periods as something meaningful.
You should have saved it for Wednesday and gone back-to-back with Post of the Day awards.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The good thing about all the back and forth speculation...
You just described two losing periods as something meaningful.
You should have saved it for Wednesday and gone back-to-back with Post of the Day awards.
Thomas: Not sure if you are just being disingenuous or you're just effing stupid of stubborn to recognize that 14-35 and 16-19 are not the same. You'd also know that teams just don't go from 14-35 to 35-14 in 2-3 seasons.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The good thing about all the back and forth speculation...
You just described two losing periods as something meaningful.
You should have saved it for Wednesday and gone back-to-back with Post of the Day awards.
Thomas: Not sure if you are just being disingenuous or you're just effing stupid of stubborn to recognize that 14-35 and 16-19 are not the same. You'd also know that teams just don't go from 14-35 to 35-14 in 2-3 seasons.
Here is what you struggle seeing…they are the same. They are losing stretches of football. They aren’t even average.
And teams can improve significantly in short periods of time. But they are typically are associated with finding the right solution at QB.
However, I can assure you losing teams that go through losing stretches while not even trying to improve at QB, have very little chance. And by the way, I’m being nice by not saying no chance.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The good thing about all the back and forth speculation...
I can assure you losing teams that go through losing stretches while not even trying to improve at QB, have very little chance. And by the way, I’m being nice by not saying no chance.
You're not being nice, you're being cowardly. If you believe they have no chance, have the balls to say it. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too. If you were really being nice, you would've just left it at very little chance.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The good thing about all the back and forth speculation...
I can assure you losing teams that go through losing stretches while not even trying to improve at QB, have very little chance. And by the way, I’m being nice by not saying no chance.
You're not being nice, you're being cowardly. If you believe they have no chance, have the balls to say it. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too. If you were really being nice, you would've just left it at very little chance.
My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
My recollection is the we won enough games to make the playoffs and then won a playoff game - leading to our 3rd deepest playoff run in over 20 years. I can also recall going 10-3-1 against all teams other than Philly and Dallas.
Seems like a good year to me.
That's because our standards for the Giants are on the floor.
You just described two losing periods as something meaningful.
You should have saved it for Wednesday and gone back-to-back with Post of the Day awards.
Thomas: Not sure if you are just being disingenuous or you're just effing stupid of stubborn to recognize that 14-35 and 16-19 are not the same. You'd also know that teams just don't go from 14-35 to 35-14 in 2-3 seasons.
Timmy, I don't think you get to call anyone else stupid OR stubborn.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The good thing about all the back and forth speculation...
You're not being nice, you're being cowardly. If you believe they have no chance, have the balls to say it. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too. If you were really being nice, you would've just left it at very little chance.
Maybe it was sarcasm.
😉
Haha well played!
RE: RE: RE: The good thing about all the back and forth speculation...
Is that in the end, we'll have an answer, one way or another. One side will be right, and the other will be wrong.
The end of this season we’ll have an answer to what? In the past 5 years we’ve changed everything out with this franchise other than the owner and the starting QB and the net outcome has barely changed.
But this is the season where some epiphany happens as to right versus wrong?
WTF are you talking about. If you take the past 5 years the Giants were 14-35 in the first three years of that period; in the last two they were 16-19-1. If you'd take the blinders off you'd realize that things have gotten better. We're not there yet but we're getting there.
Whatyou and others don't seem to understand is that "We aren't going anywhere" of signifinance without a QB that is a any combo of beiing better and healthy."
You need to take your blinders off and put away the pom poms.
And you will probbaly say this again next year.
And next year,
And next year.
Of course. It's true every year, whether they do well or not.
Nor do we know if Judge could have ben a HOF coach the next year. Or know if DG could have been an excelent GM with 1 more year.
But it's called "reasonable expectation."
Reasonable expectation is that this is not a good team.
And a further reasonable expectation - is that if they improve to win 7/8 games, then that it is harder to get get a better opportunity to get the QB you might want.
Reasoable expectation is that they arent going to win more than 8 games.
Reasonable expectation is that this is not a good team.
And a further reasonable expectation - is that if they improve to win 7/8 games, then that it is harder to get get a better opportunity to get the QB you might want.
Reasoable expectation is that they arent going to win more than 8 games.
Hey I'll go you one better. In fact I can almost guarantee that the Giants don't win more than 14 games next year. Was a 'reasonable expectation' that the Giants would win 10 games in 2022 after going 4-13 the previous. No way. Was it even a reasonable expectation that they'd start 1-4 they next year and finish 6-11. Probably not. So stuff your reasonable expectations and let's play out the season.
Reasonable expectation is that this is not a good team.
And a further reasonable expectation - is that if they improve to win 7/8 games, then that it is harder to get get a better opportunity to get the QB you might want.
Reasoable expectation is that they arent going to win more than 8 games.
Hey I'll go you one better. In fact I can almost guarantee that the Giants don't win more than 14 games next year. Was a 'reasonable expectation' that the Giants would win 10 games in 2022 after going 4-13 the previous. No way. Was it even a reasonable expectation that they'd start 1-4 they next year and finish 6-11. Probably not. So stuff your reasonable expectations and let's play out the season.
And yet the poster that is siding more toward your warped view was the one that's more in denial about reasonable excpectations.
And to imply/suggest it wouldn;t ahve been reaosoable they start last year 1-4 is just more of the lunacy some you keep coming up with. They have one good year over hwo many and yet you're oblivious to the possibility of a 1-4 start? Only a cheerleader could think like that.
I'm supsrised you didn't post more about that cheerleading as you did previously. Maybe you can give the team a hug. Sorry to defuse your pom pom waiving.
And you will probbaly say this again next year.
And next year,
And next year.
Of course. It's true every year, whether they do well or not.
Nor do we know if Judge could have ben a HOF coach the next year. Or know if DG could have been an excelent GM with 1 more year.
But it's called "reasonable expectation."
Reasonable expectation is that this is not a good team.
And a further reasonable expectation - is that if they improve to win 7/8 games, then that it is harder to get get a better opportunity to get the QB you might want.
Reasoable expectation is that they arent going to win more than 8 games.
And your point is what, exactly? That you don't think they are going to be good? Congratulations. Like I said, we will find out.
And yet the poster that is siding more toward your warped view was the one that's more in denial about reasonable excpectations.
[/quote] If this is in reference to me, that's actually pretty funny. Go back and re-read.
And yet the poster that is siding more toward your warped view was the one that's more in denial about reasonable excpectations.
If this is in reference to me, that's actually pretty funny. Go back and re-read. [/quote]
First off note I said “more toward . . .” Those words were not accident. Anyhow, this is what you said on another thread: Following up immediately with a 2nd post to address what you have said.
=========================
IMO, there is a very broad range of outcomes when it comes to Jones
UberAlias : 5/21/2024 8:58 am : link : reply
On the negative side, we could easily see the exact same as we saw last year from him. Most specifically, being too skittish to attack down field. If that's what we get, I don't see any way he will remain the starter for long. I don't see how Daboll drafted the most explosive player in the draft and is taking over plan calling duties to have all of that fall on a guy who all he does is check down. Lock is not a great option, but he won't have that issue and we saw this team compete last year when TT was in there attacking vertically. We should have that one way or another this year.
On the positive side, it is possible we get the version of Jones the team was hoping for last year, which is one that can do what he showed in 2022 but taking a step forward with better talent around him. He has the physical ability as I think we saw a bit of in his rookie year and we also saw in training camp last year.
The later is a best case, and although I do think it is a possible outcome, we shouldn't confuse that with the idea that Jones is a long term answer. IN some sense I think people under estimate just how in a funk this team, especially the offense, was early on last year. Yes, that does happen in football --we saw it in Philly last year as an example (we beat them the last time this team was on the field, remember?). But while I do believe that is the case and thus am more open to a different outcome going forward than most are --we learned beyond a doubt that when adversity hits, especially the oline, Jones doesn't have it in him to step up. He curls into a shell.
So while I am far from sharing the view that this 2024 season is lost --contrary, I believe we will likely compete. But in terms of building a contender, we're still missing that most critical piece, which I think is an obvious statement.
You made the abobe post Uber . Well in the past I’ve been wrong on some things but I was right about Barkley not taking him. I was right about jones not taking him. I was right about DG being a buffoon. I despised taking Soldier because I felt team should have bene in rebuild. As I felt after 2022 the Giants shouldn’t have signed him for the money they did. Once they made some of these moves – I was all-in to try to make the most. One of the most important things I felt was build your OL. They haven’t done it—though this year they appear to have come the closest – maybe.
So it seems we might have a good OL but it seems mediocre to me. And SY indicated in one post there are lot of Maybes. So, as a fan, how am I not supposed to be pissed to some degree that I agree with you that we aren’t building a contender with Jones while we potentially passed on some QB’'s that might be better? Which I feel they should have been taken. And so did SY as well as quite a few analysts.
My point is that WE DO HAVE ANSWERS WHICH YOU CLAIM WE DON”T. IE YOU ARE MORE FAVORED TO SNRKELS THAN SOME OF US THAT FEEL WE ARE RIGHT. Yet we have to understand that The RISK IS NOT WORTH THE REWARD with Jones due to his injury issues and overall the belief we will never be a contender with him. So, if I feel that I’m right, just as I was above (I have ben wrong about a lot of things too), and one of those QB’s hit while Giants flounder in mediocrity, how can I not feel that JS and Daboll are not clowns? And your view of trying to be positive – I feel is way off base. Keep in mind I used ot fight a ton with GoTerps and Gatrorade on Jones. At some point though “enough is enough.”
Yet you continue to post “we don’t know.” But we more-than-likely we do. You can’t try to twist this into a court of law. But imo you’re just in denial just like snorkles by the very comment “we don’t know” highlights this.
And your point is what, exactly? That you don't think they are going to be good? Congratulations. Like I said, we will find out.
And yet on ather thread you'll say "we don't know" yet again. Way to go and keep moving the goalposts as you continually do. You're a fan not a lawyer. Take a stand on something.
And yet on ather thread you'll say "we don't know" yet again. Way to go and keep moving the goalposts as you continually do. You're a fan not a lawyer. Take a stand on something.
To be honest G-stock I have no idea what you are talking about, but let me try one last time. Is it a reasonable expectation that Jones doesn't play well or the OL improvement is a mirage or that the young receivers need more time to develop and its another disappointing season BUT it is also a reasonable expectation that Jones does play closer to his 2022 form, the OL is finally at least competent, that the young receivers finally provide the Giants with a big-play component, and that the young DL starts to consistently disrupt other teams passing attacks such that the Giants again at least compete for a playoff spot. I don't know which is going to happen. You sure as hell don't know which is going to happen. What sane people are willing to do is wait and see how the season plays out rather than shooting our mouths off that all is lost before they've played a down.
And yet on ather thread you'll say "we don't know" yet again. Way to go and keep moving the goalposts as you continually do. You're a fan not a lawyer. Take a stand on something.
To be honest G-stock I have no idea what you are talking about, but let me try one last time. Is it a reasonable expectation that Jones doesn't play well or the OL improvement is a mirage or that the young receivers need more time to develop and its another disappointing season BUT it is also a reasonable expectation that Jones does play closer to his 2022 form, the OL is finally at least competent, that the young receivers finally provide the Giants with a big-play component, and that the young DL starts to consistently disrupt other teams passing attacks such that the Giants again at least compete for a playoff spot. I don't know which is going to happen. You sure as hell don't know which is going to happen. What sane people are willing to do is wait and see how the season plays out rather than shooting our mouths off that all is lost before they've played a down.
But here is what I am trying to say with you and uber- please don't take my 8 win post in the manner you did - but if they get 8 wins - and yet as what uber states which many us believe as well- - - when uber said
"But in terms of building a contender, we're still missing that most critical piece, which I think is an obvious statement."
If anyone believes this which I do - then where is the 8 win season taking us? And long term what's the plan to work toward being a contender?
The only thing I can see is that they remain mediocre and draft trenches until we're more that mediocre. And I saw this dart they didn't take any trenches. True they got Burns in a trade and they got some OL in FA but if we're not building to be a contender, why waste money to be mediocre?
Just so you can say "we want to compete be mediocre?"
And your point is what, exactly? That you don't think they are going to be good? Congratulations. Like I said, we will find out.
And yet on ather thread you'll say "we don't know" yet again. Way to go and keep moving the goalposts as you continually do. You're a fan not a lawyer. Take a stand on something.
I have not moved the goal post at all. I have maintained that there are legitimate arguments to be made for this team having a successful year or a bad one. And yet the pessimistic crowd continues to take objection to this like it's some crazy take. I've not taken away from the negative arguments other than offering that there are also counter arguments. I've literally acknowledged there is truth to them, yet for some reason many, including you, are having a hard time with anyone who doesn't agree that it's a certainty that the team is going to suck. In a neutral stance, I merely reflected that despite all the back and forth in the end we'll get to find out which side was right, and that was somehow objectionable to you.
And yet on ather thread you'll say "we don't know" yet again. Way to go and keep moving the goalposts as you continually do. You're a fan not a lawyer. Take a stand on something.
To be honest G-stock I have no idea what you are talking about, but let me try one last time. Is it a reasonable expectation that Jones doesn't play well or the OL improvement is a mirage or that the young receivers need more time to develop and its another disappointing season BUT it is also a reasonable expectation that Jones does play closer to his 2022 form, the OL is finally at least competent, that the young receivers finally provide the Giants with a big-play component, and that the young DL starts to consistently disrupt other teams passing attacks such that the Giants again at least compete for a playoff spot. I don't know which is going to happen. You sure as hell don't know which is going to happen. What sane people are willing to do is wait and see how the season plays out rather than shooting our mouths off that all is lost before they've played a down.
The way that this team has played for a decade, it is a reasonable expectation that they will stink.
That said, it is also reasonable that they will finish with a winning record.
It is possible that Jones will exceed his 2022 performance. We know that the coach has had success in his 3rd year with a toolsy and marginally effective QB.
At the end of the day, all arguments are on the table. But, "we shall see" is the only thing that resonates.
The way that this team has played for a decade, it is a reasonable expectation that they will stink.
That's an interesting statement and I guess it has some validity especially if nothing has changed. My thinking though has always been that in the end "the only season that matters is the one in front of you." And personally at this point I couldn't care less what happened 5 or 10 years ago. Those were different teams with largely different players. What I'm doing is looking at the team in front of us and thinking that it will in fact be very disappointing if this team doesn't win 9-10 games and compete for a playoff spot, at least barring one or two major units being wiped out by injuries. And I say that because it looks like the OL should finally be at least competent, that with the young receivers the Giants have the real potential for an explosive big-play offence, and that with the young DL group we have the potential for a very disruptive defence. Of course, the elephant in the room remains the QB situation, but actual football people who know far more about NFL QBs than anyone in this room who who have worked with the guy every day for several years now seem to think that Jones has the physical tools, mental make-up and work ethic to be successful in the league if given some tools to work with. Time will tell.
I appreciate the standard set in this community, that:
1) most participants are here to debate and learn about football
2) there's always been a burden of proof in debates
That we can be bust each other's chops along the way, but then move on to the next topic in good faith, has always been a feature not a defect on this site.
What I do find very bizarre (this is not directed to Brown Hornet), is an upswing in contributions around the idea of "well we don't know, so why are we talking about it?"
No shit, of course we don't know. We're all simply making guesses and debating with the facts we have.
I appreciate the standard set in this community, that:
1) most participants are here to debate and learn about football
2) there's always been a burden of proof in debates
That we can be bust each other's chops along the way, but then move on to the next topic in good faith, has always been a feature not a defect on this site.
What I do find very bizarre (this is not directed to Brown Hornet), is an upswing in contributions around the idea of "well we don't know, so why are we talking about it?"
No shit, of course we don't know. We're all simply making guesses and debating with the facts we have.
I think that if absolutes were removed from the conversation that we'd have better debates and healthier interaction.
Many of the "facts" that we debate with are circumstantial and therefore, debatable in and of themselves.
Some come here for information only. They should be prepared for hot takes from all directions because while we don't know...we should be talking about it.
When the optimists declare that only time is entitled to opinions
We have our answer as to the quality of this team. The Athletic frankly could not be more spot on in their ranking. I actually believe there is a good chance that the Munich game will decide who the worst team in the NFL is in 2024. It will be the ultimate Toilettenschüssel!
We actually know this team will not be good. The quarterback and running back rooms are the very worst in the entire NFL. The OL is fixed? Runyan is simply the next Glowinski. Evan Neal is terrible. JMS needs to step up big time or enter into the "is he a bust?" debate next year. The defense has clearly been upgraded and may be good this year, but like 2017, they won't be good in the second half of games when they are gassed from being on the field seventy percent of the time.
The only question is, will the Giants win more than five games and destroy any chance again of getting an elite quarterback prospect in the 2025 draft? My guess is no and they will indeed have a top three pick next year, but I am apparently not entitled to this opinion since it is only time that can tell such things...
We have our answer as to the quality of this team. The Athletic frankly could not be more spot on in their ranking. I actually believe there is a good chance that the Munich game will decide who the worst team in the NFL is in 2024. It will be the ultimate Toilettenschüssel!
We actually know this team will not be good. The quarterback and running back rooms are the very worst in the entire NFL. The OL is fixed? Runyan is simply the next Glowinski. Evan Neal is terrible. JMS needs to step up big time or enter into the "is he a bust?" debate next year. The defense has clearly been upgraded and may be good this year, but like 2017, they won't be good in the second half of games when they are gassed from being on the field seventy percent of the time.
The only question is, will the Giants win more than five games and destroy any chance again of getting an elite quarterback prospect in the 2025 draft? My guess is no and they will indeed have a top three pick next year, but I am apparently not entitled to this opinion since it is only time that can tell such things...
And your point is what, exactly? That you don't think they are going to be good? Congratulations. Like I said, we will find out.
And yet on ather thread you'll say "we don't know" yet again. Way to go and keep moving the goalposts as you continually do. You're a fan not a lawyer. Take a stand on something.
I have not moved the goal post at all. I have maintained that there are legitimate arguments to be made for this team having a successful year or a bad one. And yet the pessimistic crowd continues to take objection to this like it's some crazy take. I've not taken away from the negative arguments other than offering that there are also counter arguments. I've literally acknowledged there is truth to them, yet for some reason many, including you, are having a hard time with anyone who doesn't agree that it's a certainty that the team is going to suck. In a neutral stance, I merely reflected that despite all the back and forth in the end we'll get to find out which side was right, and that was somehow objectionable to you.
OFC you have. Your past post that we don't know the answers is in reply to posters opinions beliefs that Giants won't be good. Even your reply to me is featuring us "naysayers." Yet on another thread as I pointed out you imply Jones is a big issue and you identify the alternatives while continuing to go after those of us that believe that the Giants will not be good. How is it that we’re wrong if you also acknowledge that Jones is a long term issue?
why don't you just say "we don't know the answers" - which you hide behind instead of taking a stand - and follow that up with "we can go 17-0 or 0-17 this team depending on how each player plays?" That's basically what you're saying and trying desperately to go after the naysayers.
If you are who I think you are- you and I have been in agreement for a long time about the trenches. But if this is you- somehow you've been twisted into minimizing QB play which is why you might be more reluctant to criticize the non QB pick.
If you do believe Jones is an issue (and you are not minimizing QB play) then why are you hiding behind the comment "we don’t; know?" These are opinions form those of us that believe we are right that the QB play long terms from Jones will impact this franchise in a negative way. You are just playing both sides of the fence while moving the goalposts whenever it suits you.
IF he stays healthy AND we get production from the running game. As Go Terps stats showed, we were running the ball a lot.
But we won't do any better than 2022. 2022 was Daniel Jones at his best...and that "best" wasn't good enough to beat the upper echelon teams. And if in 2024, you think a game manager is going to get to the Super Bowl, you may want to adjust your meds. The rule changes have made having a top echelon QB a requirement to contend.
Daniel Jones is a poor man's Alex Smith. That's what he is. Kansas City was never going to win a championship with Smith, even with one of the best QB guru's around (Andy Reid), and their organization knew it. That's why he was replaced.
Was Smith a good player? Sure, he was good, he won a lot of games. But he wasn't going to beat teams with upper echelon QB's. Kurt Cousins, who has to be considered a better QB than DJ, hasn't been able to beat the upper echelon teams as well. It's no shame, it's just reality.
The real rebuild will start in 2025, when the Giants make a decision on the QB position. The key is to build the team up so that we can have a similar path that KC had when they replaced Smith with Mahomes.
Last year they picked 5th not 3rd.
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That’s where we belong.
Last year they picked 5th not 3rd.
I meant 6th
I agree. We have some talent. Comes down to OL mainly IMO. Ours was horrendous last year. Hopefully some vets and a new OL coach help. QB, whoever it is, will look a lot better if he has some time.
For me, I think we can have a solid defense. Offense is where I'm concerned...the OL & the most important position in sports.
do you do music, lyrics or both?
Is it negativity to carry an umbrella when the weatherman says it's going to rain? It is what it is.
Missed opportunity last season?
Is it negativity to carry an umbrella when the weatherman says it's going to rain? It is what it is.
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It's not negativity to say that.
Is it negativity to carry an umbrella when the weatherman says it's going to rain? It is what it is.
It's been more or less your life's work to tell everyone how much the team sucks, at every opportunity. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what purpose you serve when the team is good. You're a broken car with one gear.
As opposed to "I'm gonna be positive!"
Fresh take.
It is what it is. You want to pretend it's something else, go ahead. But not everyone is going to sign up for your bedtime story.
That’s fine as is your choice. While others may want to see at least a few tangible indicators that the team could be heading in a positive direction before simply embracing it.
And projecting less than positive doesn’t mean fans are typically walking around with their tails between their legs. I think that may be more reserved for those expecting and/or touting the presumptive positive and then watching the losses pile up again as matter of fact.
Leaving out by far the biggest factor in this teams success.
Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
Jones is obviously not great.....Mahomes is great. Jones has limitations.....
I believe most NFL QBs are decent enough to perform when the team around them is good.
Cousins, Purdy, even Hurts......are viewed by many to be better than Jones.....but limitations show up.
Jones must step up his game.....with the improvements around him. Overcomes his limitations.....and play better and Win.
If you think he is not capable of that....I won't argue.
I hope he does
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is more talented than people think. Except at the QB position. And that is what will hold them back.
Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
Being clearly better at all position groups isn't a prereq for a good team (though it helps). Having good players (on the field, not in the training room), well coached, with a few impact players in key roles-- all playing fundamentally sound ball -- is what makes a good team.
This time last season the Giants were a playoff team with precisely that. Then the debacle of last season happened; player evaluation either uses that baseline, or treats it more a can-go/will-go wrong mulligan with (frustratingly) little to learn (player-wise) because the overall circumstances preclude fairly rating most players.
It's not baseball -- players don't stand at the plate by themselves. Even then, their NY brethren the Yankees show how one impact player, a few piece parts with the right intangibles, and a dose of anger at last season can change everything.
A year from now the same players in the same position groups may indeed be clearly better than most others. That's not even a stretch, but also impossible to rationally aver.
To each their own
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In comment 16530123 ElitoCanton said:
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is more talented than people think. Except at the QB position. And that is what will hold them back.
Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
Being clearly better at all position groups isn't a prereq for a good team (though it helps). Having good players (on the field, not in the training room), well coached, with a few impact players in key roles-- all playing fundamentally sound ball -- is what makes a good team.
This time last season the Giants were a playoff team with precisely that. Then the debacle of last season happened; player evaluation either uses that baseline, or treats it more a can-go/will-go wrong mulligan with (frustratingly) little to learn (player-wise) because the overall circumstances preclude fairly rating most players.
It's not baseball -- players don't stand at the plate by themselves. Even then, their NY brethren the Yankees show how one impact player, a few piece parts with the right intangibles, and a dose of anger at last season can change everything.
A year from now the same players in the same position groups may indeed be clearly better than most others. That's not even a stretch, but also impossible to rationally aver.
All very true. And the hope of a new season is upon us.
Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
p.s.--People discount his road playoff victory over the Vikings in 2022 because they poo-poo the Vikings pass-defense, but if you factor in our dogshit OL and WRs, you could argue that that's what you get from Daniel Jones in a fair fight. With an OL that can keep him from constantly running for his life and receivers that even top defenses need to actually gameplan against, it will be interesting to see how Jones performs...if he can stay healthy.
If you think he is not capable of that....I won't argue.
I hope he does
I hope I win Powerball, but I know what the odds look like.
Hoping something happens is great. But it's not a forecast, it's just hope.
2022 didn't tell us anything about DJ's worst. It told us everything about DJ's best.
DJ's worst was on full display in 2020, 2021, 2023.
Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Jones is obviously not great.....Mahomes is great. Jones has limitations.....
I believe most NFL QBs are decent enough to perform when the team around them is good.
Cousins, Purdy, even Hurts......are viewed by many to be better than Jones.....but limitations show up.
Jones must step up his game.....with the improvements around him. Overcomes his limitations.....and play better and Win.
If you think he is not capable of that....I won't argue.
I hope he does
I think when your QB is entering his 6th season and making 40 million a year, your expectation should be higher.
Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
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Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
Daniel Jones IS the weak supporting cast.
Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
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Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Please point out an example of my "DJ-worship" (defending someone is different from worshiping them).
You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
You have zero credibility when it comes to DJ. None.
Link - ( New Window )
It is what it is. You want to pretend it's something else, go ahead. But not everyone is going to sign up for your bedtime story.
Fantasy world? LOL. I've very clearly stated that there is a broad range of outcomes for this team. Maybe they will be bad, and maybe they won't, I've said as much. I can see both sides of the coin and acknowledge the reasons for each. You don't possess that capacity. Not only will GoTerp anticipate the negative, which would be perfectly fair, but he will be relentlessly certain of it. And repeat it, over and over.
You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
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I think that's right. I've said all along, I think there is a wide range of outcomes for this team. God forbid Dexter goes down for an extended period, for example. But I do feel that last year we suffered more than our share of impactful injuries, so there's that. Plus, the way I look at it --nobody can anticipate all the question marks. Why not embrace the positive potential over walking around with our tail between our legs all the time? I do feel better about our current coach and GM than prior. These may not be the guys, I'm not guaranteeing they are. But the prior administration was much more clearly NOT the guys at a similar point, IMO. So I've elected to stay positive, by choice.
That’s fine as is your choice. While others may want to see at least a few tangible indicators that the team could be heading in a positive direction before simply embracing it.
And projecting less than positive doesn’t mean fans are typically walking around with their tails between their legs. I think that may be more reserved for those expecting and/or touting the presumptive positive and then watching the losses pile up again as matter of fact.
That is fair Thomas. I was not saying others have tail between legs, so much as I was indicating that I choose not to. It's a personal choice in disposition given the absence of of certainty one way or another, if that makes sense.
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You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
a) I didn't/don't worship Eli; b) the comment you are referring to was a sarcastic reply to Go Terps (re: two talking heads naming Jones as the worst case scenario for Trevor Lawrence).
Maybe it's time for some self-reflection on your part then, because your supposedly sarcastic DJ posts and your genuinely sincere DJ posts are impossible to separate from one another.
And I don't think you were being sarcastic anyway.
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If it were good I'd say it's good. Your fantasy world is boring, and it's been boring for a decade.
It is what it is. You want to pretend it's something else, go ahead. But not everyone is going to sign up for your bedtime story.
Fantasy world? LOL. I've very clearly stated that there is a broad range of outcomes for this team. Maybe they will be bad, and maybe they won't, I've said as much. I can see both sides of the coin and acknowledge the reasons for each. You don't possess that capacity. Not only will GoTerp anticipate the negative, which would be perfectly fair, but he will be relentlessly certain of it. And repeat it, over and over.
The "broad range of outcomes" isn't particularly broad.
The ceiling is 2022 - everything goes right, squeak into the playoffs and get destroyed by the first good team they play. The floor is the worst team in the league. That "broad range of outcomes" is actually just a function of parity. Optimistic fans of the Panthers and Patriots can make the same arguments this offseason, too.
I'm actually optimistic too. I've got the Giants at 7-10, and not 3-14.
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Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
You're spot on. Just like flat earthers, people can ignore '22 all they want and toss in conspiracy theories about how Daboll/Schoen were forced to give Jones a deal rather than accepting facts borne by actual stats and film: his '22 performance in literally EVERYTHING under his control - accuracy on target, turnovers, yards per run, total running yards, was excellent, and his overall passing numbers were average (as a #14 QBR would suggest).
If '22 says he's "just a game manager" it was exactly the kind of game manager you can win a SB with. Led the league in accuracy and lowest TO rate. And was amongst the leaders and all rushing categories. He can't block rushers or throw to himself.
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
Maybe it's time for some self-reflection on your part then, because your supposedly sarcastic DJ posts and your genuinely sincere DJ posts are impossible to separate from one another.
And I don't think you were being sarcastic anyway.
p.s.--I realize I'm opening myself up to all kinds of ridicule with "I'd have to be clueless"
Could we come out on the good side of some close games and win 9 games? Sure, that's in the range of outcomes. Unfortunately if that happens, it means we are saddled with Daniel for 1, probably 2, more years. And if you play it forward, it essentially foreclosures on the Giants being a contender until about 2029 at the earliest.
Sad, boring, bleak times for Giants fans. But at least we are securing the financial future of a nice young man who is easy to root for.
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In comment 16530296 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
You're spot on. Just like flat earthers, people can ignore '22 all they want and toss in conspiracy theories about how Daboll/Schoen were forced to give Jones a deal rather than accepting facts borne by actual stats and film: his '22 performance in literally EVERYTHING under his control - accuracy on target, turnovers, yards per run, total running yards, was excellent, and his overall passing numbers were average (as a #14 QBR would suggest).
If '22 says he's "just a game manager" it was exactly the kind of game manager you can win a SB with. Led the league in accuracy and lowest TO rate. And was amongst the leaders and all rushing categories. He can't block rushers or throw to himself.
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
I would be surprised if Washington is not better than us this year.
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Washington is gonna be better than us.
I would be surprised if Washington is not better than us this year.
You know you are going to suck ass when fans are hand wringing over whether or not the fucking Redskins will be better than us…
I think that maybe the Cowboys who haven't won a Super Bowl in almost three decades - in fact they haven't won a non-Wild Card playoff game in that period - maybe should be more focused on their own house!
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In comment 16530312 Gatorade Dunk said:
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You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
a) I didn't/don't worship Eli; b) the comment you are referring to was a sarcastic reply to Go Terps (re: two talking heads naming Jones as the worst case scenario for Trevor Lawrence).
Maybe it's time for some self-reflection on your part then, because your supposedly sarcastic DJ posts and your genuinely sincere DJ posts are impossible to separate from one another.
And I don't think you were being sarcastic anyway.
Fanboy Milton is an easy read. If Jones never pans out, well, all of his praises were always meant to be sarcasm.
I hope some day the Giants provide an opportunity for us to find out!
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In comment 16530154 UberAlias said:
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I think that's right. I've said all along, I think there is a wide range of outcomes for this team. God forbid Dexter goes down for an extended period, for example. But I do feel that last year we suffered more than our share of impactful injuries, so there's that. Plus, the way I look at it --nobody can anticipate all the question marks. Why not embrace the positive potential over walking around with our tail between our legs all the time? I do feel better about our current coach and GM than prior. These may not be the guys, I'm not guaranteeing they are. But the prior administration was much more clearly NOT the guys at a similar point, IMO. So I've elected to stay positive, by choice.
That’s fine as is your choice. While others may want to see at least a few tangible indicators that the team could be heading in a positive direction before simply embracing it.
And projecting less than positive doesn’t mean fans are typically walking around with their tails between their legs. I think that may be more reserved for those expecting and/or touting the presumptive positive and then watching the losses pile up again as matter of fact.
That is fair Thomas. I was not saying others have tail between legs, so much as I was indicating that I choose not to. It's a personal choice in disposition given the absence of of certainty one way or another, if that makes sense.
Thw problem is that they have been bad for so many years - you can't blame the negativity. And in this case there has to be a reminder that Jones has been injury prone and that his mobility is probably less too.
Also, we hav a pro evaluator here named SY - who has said since early on - Jones is slow to read. He had a terrific RB in which he could also run well. Those are both gone-- now a better OL (not sure if it will be better in re to run blocking vs 2022 in that Giants are going to look to open things up more vs "pound") but better but now you may have a QB becoming more exposed to have to play to his weakness.
All-in-all that might not be good. i expect 6-7 wins. If things crash as low as 4 - if some mini-end of game extreme moments- up to 9. Part of the numbers are that Jones has the possibility - higher than most/nearly all qbs -- of getting hurt.
Being positive despite all this just seems a leap too far. And just because the OL is better doesn't mean it's good. It could be average or sub par. If its' good obviously 7+ feaisble depending on Jones / health etc.
If push came to shove I would go with under 6.5 wins. In a passing league our QB has more limited scrambling and is more injury prone and won't have as much of a running game in which he isn't that great of an overal "reader;" - that doesn't leave me with a good feeling.
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is more talented than people think. Except at the QB position. And that is what will hold them back.
Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
Above average ER/OLB?
Other than Okereke, an ILB, who consistently tackled the ball carrier last year?
(2) People who are so convinced of their knowledge that they root for the Giants to lose to bring about their desired outcome of roster/front office construction.
I think there's more (1) than (2) here, but I find both types of fans grating at times.
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Other than ER/OLB I’m not sure what position group we are clearly above average?
DT? - 1 great player then….
ILB - 1 very good player then…
WR?
Let's say, for the sake of argument, you're right about ER being a position group that's above average. Now add in the potential for our WR group to be above average if Malik Nabers is the real deal, Wan'Dale Robinson has a healthy year, and Hyatt develops as hoped. Well, pass-rushing and pass-cathing are two of the most important position groups in the NFL given it's a passing league. If the pass-rusher and pass-catchers are complemented by an average OL position group and an average back seven, that's the makings of a pretty good team if our QB plays well. And contrary to the haters and the lovers, Daniel Jones remains a mystery man. As demonstrated by his 2022 season, he is at worst, a competent game manager, but the potential is there for him to be more than that given an average OL and an above average WR group (compared to the pathetic OL and WR groups that he carried on his back in 2022).
p.s.--People discount his road playoff victory over the Vikings in 2022 because they poo-poo the Vikings pass-defense, but if you factor in our dogshit OL and WRs, you could argue that that's what you get from Daniel Jones in a fair fight. With an OL that can keep him from constantly running for his life and receivers that even top defenses need to actually gameplan against, it will be interesting to see how Jones performs...if he can stay healthy.
1-- An injury prone QB.
2--- A QB known to be slow to read.
3-- A QB whose best success has been his ability to use his legs which are now compromised to a degree.
I wouldn't call this position- the most important position on the field as "avaerage" while looking to put a positive spin on things.
I think people are downplaying the loss of Barkley. That has to be accounted for along with Mckinney.
I think this is a 5 or 6 win team.
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To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what purpose you serve when the team is good.
I hope some day the Giants provide an opportunity for us to find out!
Me too. I don't understand the posters that get angry when you just observe existing conditions.
Uber said it himself: he's making the choice to be positive. He isn't being objective. That's a completely fine way to be, but not everyone is going to be that.
Objectively, this team can, with average injury and "bounce of the ball" luck reasonably be expected to be well into the bottom half of the league. With good luck they can be middle of the league. With bad luck they can be among the very worst in the league. What they can't be is among the very best in the league.
People with no skin in the game are making the same observation. It isn't offensive.
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In comment 16530296 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Taking someone's best season by far and declaring it their floor is not particularly logical, but it's very much on brand for your embarrassing DJ-worship.
Considering that he couldn't've had a weaker supporting cast, I think it's fair to say it's his floor. Can you point out a team that was weaker at OL and WR than the Giants were in 2022?
You're spot on. Just like flat earthers, people can ignore '22 all they want and toss in conspiracy theories about how Daboll/Schoen were forced to give Jones a deal rather than accepting facts borne by actual stats and film: his '22 performance in literally EVERYTHING under his control - accuracy on target, turnovers, yards per run, total running yards, was excellent, and his overall passing numbers were average (as a #14 QBR would suggest).
If '22 says he's "just a game manager" it was exactly the kind of game manager you can win a SB with. Led the league in accuracy and lowest TO rate. And was amongst the leaders and all rushing categories. He can't block rushers or throw to himself.
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence.
Personally I take these pre-season prognostications with a grain of salt. Its why they actually play the games. I also come at from the perspective of someone who played sports for a good part of their life and even coached a little bit at a modestly high level. And as a player or coach you always go into a season with some optimism because I can guarantee that if you go into a season thinking that you suck; that you're awful you will be!
And I'm going into this season basically cautiously optimistic. No question the Giants went thru a dismal stretch especially 2017 thru 2021 when they were what 22-59. But they were 16-19-1 the past two years including a playoff appearance. There's also no question that they are slowly, but surely building a core of good young players. As several people have noted it takes time; the Giants didn't win a SB under George Young until his 8th year (and in fact were something like 26-46 in his first 5 years and 3-12-1 in his 5th!) So I doubt that the Giants are true 'contenders' this year but thinking they could be 2-3 years out from a disaster is just totally unrealistic.
And needless to say there is still work to be done. First and foremost to resolve the QB issue, firstly by finding out once and for all whether Jones is the guy; if not either thru the draft or finding a vet in the draft or free agency.
In the meantime, I kind of feel sorry for all the naysayers who are missing out on one of the most fascinating parts of the whole team-building process.
You do get that by debating these topics, the naysayers are in point-of-fact not missing out on this fascinating part, right?
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How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence.
Personally I take these pre-season prognostications with a grain of salt. Its why they actually play the games. I also come at from the perspective of someone who played sports for a good part of their life and even coached a little bit at a modestly high level. And as a player or coach you always go into a season with some optimism because I can guarantee that if you go into a season thinking that you suck; that you're awful you will be!
And I'm going into this season basically cautiously optimistic. No question the Giants went thru a dismal stretch especially 2017 thru 2021 when they were what 22-59. But they were 16-19-1 the past two years including a playoff appearance. There's also no question that they are slowly, but surely building a core of good young players. As several people have noted it takes time; the Giants didn't win a SB under George Young until his 8th year (and in fact were something like 26-46 in his first 5 years and 3-12-1 in his 5th!) So I doubt that the Giants are true 'contenders' this year but thinking they could be 2-3 years out from a disaster is just totally unrealistic.
And needless to say there is still work to be done. First and foremost to resolve the QB issue, firstly by finding out once and for all whether Jones is the guy; if not either thru the draft or finding a vet in the draft or free agency.
In the meantime, I kind of feel sorry for all the naysayers who are missing out on one of the most fascinating parts of the whole team-building process.
I've disagreed a ton with both guys you mentioned. A ton. But that aside - you have to recognized that you are not a coach for the Giants. You're on a site discussing "team."
You’re not the catch so why you think bringing up how your team "feels" going into a season and relating it to this team on this discussion board is completely irrelevant. If many feel a player or team is not good - how is it remotely relevant that you felt a need to repress your preseason optimism when you were/ or are a coach?
Bottom-line is that you are doing the same think you accuse the haters (maybe if you want to include me) as you imply/claim it gets tiring to hear all the complaints. Well it gets tiring when posters such as yourself make the comment as you did in your 2nd to last paragraph with "once and for all . . ." How many more years are we going to hear this same tired phrase from you Joens-deniers?
Then your last paragraph just adds to the craziness- that you feel sorry for those that can't enjoy team building. I just question whether what you say is maybe not team building but more like team cheerleading. I am not sorry at all for not being a team cheerleader esepcially when the tean has been overall so poor for so long.
And your comment is the same type of comment we probably heard from the years-past Dave Gettlmen crowd. - Please please no more "Once and for all . . ."
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How am I denying 2022? All I'm saying is that it's fundamentally illogical to take someone's best performance and assume that that will become his BASELINE floor going forward.
Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role.
You're an even bigger loser than DJ, and just as much of a loser as you were when you were Snablats, dupe.
Ah yes, the kind of witty repartee one comes to expect on this site!
Ah yes, the kind of witty repartee one comes to expect on this site!
You're barely worth the words I already wasted on you. Run along now.
Ah yes, the kind of witty repartee one comes to expect on this site!
Do you recognize the majority of your contributions to this site center around:
1) Not enjoying this site
2) Discouraging other from debating football
?
They face the AFC North who will be difficult. But the rest isnt anything remotely scary. No Detroit or San Francisco on the list. Do we recall how shit Philadelphia looked last year in the second half? The Giants will be bad based on that info but the Eagles get a restart and will have no problems being a top team? They did lose two key figures to their lines, still have been lucky with injuries on the OL and you never know what that can change. Defense is a work in progress and lost their best pass rusher (Reddick). Corner for them is, again, a huge question mark.
So yes, outside the AFC North, the rest are beatable if Daboll can get his guys properly prepared and they can be relatively healthy. Maybe not a playoff team but I don't see them winning 4-6 games, either, especially if their key guys stay healthy.
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In comment 16530306 Milton said:
<snip>
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
Your football expertise is truly awesome. </s>
Jones was #6 overall in 2022 passer rating -- which doesn't factor in rushing.
He was #13 in ESPN total QB rating "ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (Total QBR), which was released in 2011, has never claimed to be perfect, but unlike other measures of quarterback performance, it incorporates all of a quarterback’s contributions to winning, including how he impacts the game on passes, rushes, turnovers and penalties. "
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In comment 16530349 HBart said:
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In comment 16530306 Milton said:
<snip>
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
Your football expertise is truly awesome. </s>
Jones was #6 overall in 2022 passer rating -- which doesn't factor in rushing.
He was #13 in ESPN total QB rating "ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (Total QBR), which was released in 2011, has never claimed to be perfect, but unlike other measures of quarterback performance, it incorporates all of a quarterback’s contributions to winning, including how he impacts the game on passes, rushes, turnovers and penalties. "
Jones was 6 in QBR, QBR factors rushing. You are confusing QBR and QB rating
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_quarterback_rating
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In comment 16530349 HBart said:
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In comment 16530306 Milton said:
<snip>
I also don't understand why anyone would expect a QB by any name in '22 to do anything better than Jones with Slayton, Richie James and Hodgins as his receivers (and even then, look what a revelation Hodgins -- a waiver -- was).
Incomprehensible.
You are hilariously wrong as Jones' underlying passing metrics were bad in 2022. All you've done is highlight his running, which QBR also overemphasizes. If Mara thinks like you we're doomed for a decade. Jones is scared to throw the ball, and his non productive Y/A and ADOT, even in his *fantastic* year 2022, are abysmal. If you think you can win a Super Bowl with Jones you are delusional, and the Cowboys and Eagles must be throwing a party because we're so inept.
Your football expertise is truly awesome. </s>
Jones was #6 overall in 2022 passer rating -- which doesn't factor in rushing.
He was #13 in ESPN total QB rating "ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (Total QBR), which was released in 2011, has never claimed to be perfect, but unlike other measures of quarterback performance, it incorporates all of a quarterback’s contributions to winning, including how he impacts the game on passes, rushes, turnovers and penalties. "
You are mistaken. He was 14th in passer rating. He was a miserable 24th in Y/A. And even more miserable 28th in TD%. He was basically a one read and dash QB, who was afraid of anything downfield. and then good defenses took the dash component away and the Giants went 3-6-1 after a good start.
Here are more stats for you to ponder. His sack rate in 2022 was 26th. Y/G 25th.
Only 6.1 percent of Jones’ pass attempts traveled at least 20 yards in the air in 2022, the 33rd-highest rate in the league. He ranked 32nd in 2021 at 5.9 percent.
Jones’ average pass traveled 3.1 yards short of the first down markers in 2022, which ranked 34th. His average pass traveled 2.7 yards short of the sticks in 2021, which ranked 32nd.
Jones' averaged 6.4 air yards per attempt in 2022, which ranked 30th. He had the same average 2021, which ranked 32nd.
He's not a good passer, and 2022, his good season shows a QB who got away with playing scared for a little while before defenses figured him out. He can't, and won't, challenge defenses, attack them where it really matters. He will continue to dink and dunk. And Jones cultists like yourself will continue to tell us we are watching a talented QB.
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In comment 16530368 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16530349 HBart said:
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In comment 16530306 Milton said:
<snip>
And Jones cultists like yourself will continue to tell us we are watching a talented QB.
Or what he said
You can't rely on never turning it over as the foundation of your offense.
You can't rely on never turning it over as the foundation of your offense.
Agreed on all counts. But I also think it was -- rightfully -- a point of emphasis. Turnovers are always costly, but without explosive playmakers they're deadly.
Total number of plays run: 13th
Rush attempts: 8th
Pass attempts: 25th
Yards/Rush Attempt: 5th
Yards/Pass Attempt: 24th
Intended air yards/pass attempt: 30th
Pass TD%: 26th
Pass Int%: 1st (meaning lowest percentage of intercepted passed in the league)
In sum, here's the 2022 Giants passing offense, in an image:
Then when they tried to put a little more on Jones in 2023, we got this:
Daniel Jones wasn't a good passer in 2022. He was a good runner. And now he's recovering from a torn ACL.
Totally agree with this
Thank you for proving my case: (from above) Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence. and now give all the credit to the coach. Anything but hey the guy played pretty well that year without much around him. And on and on and on they go!!
What did they win?
What did they win?
Love you guys!! You holler that 'we don't post any of that kind of shit you accuse us of' and then you go out and post a lot of that kind of shit!!
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My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
Love you guys!! You holler that 'we don't post any of that kind of shit you accuse us of' and then you go out and post a lot of that kind of shit!!
I don't know what any of that means.
& let's face it...he was awful in '23. & I know the OL sucked-I'm not going to dispute that-but he wasn't good either & when one is making $40 million...the excuses go out the window.
I legit believe this is a make or break season for him. If he sucks, he's gone. If he shines-& I hope he does because it'll mean the Giants are in all likelihood good-he'll be back in '25. Gun to head, I'm expecting the former, but I hope to be proven wrong.
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You literally just bucketed DJ and Eli together as the same level of "just below elite" QBs the other day.
a) I didn't/don't worship Eli; b) the comment you are referring to was a sarcastic reply to Go Terps (re: two talking heads naming Jones as the worst case scenario for Trevor Lawrence).
Man, that's damn good sarcasm. You'd never know if you didn't tell us.
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In comment 16530154 UberAlias said:
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I think that's right. I've said all along, I think there is a wide range of outcomes for this team. God forbid Dexter goes down for an extended period, for example. But I do feel that last year we suffered more than our share of impactful injuries, so there's that. Plus, the way I look at it --nobody can anticipate all the question marks. Why not embrace the positive potential over walking around with our tail between our legs all the time? I do feel better about our current coach and GM than prior. These may not be the guys, I'm not guaranteeing they are. But the prior administration was much more clearly NOT the guys at a similar point, IMO. So I've elected to stay positive, by choice.
That’s fine as is your choice. While others may want to see at least a few tangible indicators that the team could be heading in a positive direction before simply embracing it.
And projecting less than positive doesn’t mean fans are typically walking around with their tails between their legs. I think that may be more reserved for those expecting and/or touting the presumptive positive and then watching the losses pile up again as matter of fact.
That is fair Thomas. I was not saying others have tail between legs, so much as I was indicating that I choose not to. It's a personal choice in disposition given the absence of of certainty one way or another, if that makes sense.
Ok Uber. Let's move on as to our personal choices of being a NYG fan.
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Jones' performance in '22-solid, not speculator-tells me more that Dabs is a good coach than it tells me anything re. Jones.
Thank you for proving my case: (from above) Can only chuckle when Dunk and Terps et al plaintively ask "How am I denying 2022?' cause of course they are because the hole in their whole premise that we 'can never win as long as DJ is the QB' is refuted by the fact that we did win that year with DJ playing a huge role. So we have to cherry pick some negative stats or claim the playoff win was meaningless because the Vikings didn't have a good defence. and now give all the credit to the coach. Anything but hey the guy played pretty well that year without much around him. And on and on and on they go!!
Post of the Day winner in my book. Congrats!
If it is fact that the Giants won in 2022 with DJ playing a huge role, will you stipulate that he also plays a huge role in the more-frequent losing over his career? Or does it only go one-way?
We have five years of answer. Some of it good, more of it bad.
The only reason some don't accept the answer is simply denial.
What did they win?
Seems like a good year to me.
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My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
My recollection is the we won enough games to make the playoffs and then won a playoff game - leading to our 3rd deepest playoff run in over 20 years. I can also recall going 10-3-1 against all teams other than Philly and Dallas.
Seems like a good year to me.
That's because our standards for the Giants are on the floor.
The end of this season we’ll have an answer to what? In the past 5 years we’ve changed everything out with this franchise other than the owner and the starting QB and the net outcome has barely changed.
But this is the season where some epiphany happens as to right versus wrong?
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My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
My recollection is the we won enough games to make the playoffs and then won a playoff game - leading to our 3rd deepest playoff run in over 20 years. I can also recall going 10-3-1 against all teams other than Philly and Dallas.
Seems like a good year to me.
We’ll always have Minnesota Joe.
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Is that in the end, we'll have an answer, one way or another. One side will be right, and the other will be wrong.
The end of this season we’ll have an answer to what? In the past 5 years we’ve changed everything out with this franchise other than the owner and the starting QB and the net outcome has barely changed.
But this is the season where some epiphany happens as to right versus wrong?
WTF are you talking about. If you take the past 5 years the Giants were 14-35 in the first three years of that period; in the last two they were 16-19-1. If you'd take the blinders off you'd realize that things have gotten better. We're not there yet but we're getting there.
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Is that in the end, we'll have an answer, one way or another. One side will be right, and the other will be wrong.
The end of this season we’ll have an answer to what? In the past 5 years we’ve changed everything out with this franchise other than the owner and the starting QB and the net outcome has barely changed.
But this is the season where some epiphany happens as to right versus wrong?
Um... This administration with a new coaching staff and nearly a complete turnover of the roster is 1-1 in terms of good seasons verses bad. You're obviously convinced they are going to suck. Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong. But we are going to find out.
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In comment 16530818 Go Terps said:
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My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
My recollection is the we won enough games to make the playoffs and then won a playoff game - leading to our 3rd deepest playoff run in over 20 years. I can also recall going 10-3-1 against all teams other than Philly and Dallas.
Seems like a good year to me.
That's because our standards for the Giants are on the floor.
Some things went well for us and DJ’s overall play absolutely contributed positivity.
We have a sense of which teams are good and which aren't. If you can find any betting site that has each team in the league at 32:1 odds to win the Super Bowl, please share it so that we can bet the good teams with a chance at those odds.
Most places I look have the Giants at 150-1 to win the Super Bowl. That's a great bet if you think they have the same chance as the Chiefs, 49ers, etc.
We are in position to draft a stud RT. If we shore up some weaknesses and get some better health, we'll see a real Make or Break Year in 2025.
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In comment 16530840 UberAlias said:
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Is that in the end, we'll have an answer, one way or another. One side will be right, and the other will be wrong.
The end of this season we’ll have an answer to what? In the past 5 years we’ve changed everything out with this franchise other than the owner and the starting QB and the net outcome has barely changed.
But this is the season where some epiphany happens as to right versus wrong?
Um... This administration with a new coaching staff and nearly a complete turnover of the roster is 1-1 in terms of good seasons verses bad. You're obviously convinced they are going to suck. Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong. But we are going to find out.
I am not convinced the Giants are going to suck. They will beat some teams here and there but not much else.
I am convinced however that they aren’t going anywhere sans an upgrade at QB. And I don’t know how that happens when they continue to pass on drafting one and keep putting non-solutions to the problem out on the field.
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In comment 16530840 UberAlias said:
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Is that in the end, we'll have an answer, one way or another. One side will be right, and the other will be wrong.
The end of this season we’ll have an answer to what? In the past 5 years we’ve changed everything out with this franchise other than the owner and the starting QB and the net outcome has barely changed.
But this is the season where some epiphany happens as to right versus wrong?
WTF are you talking about. If you take the past 5 years the Giants were 14-35 in the first three years of that period; in the last two they were 16-19-1. If you'd take the blinders off you'd realize that things have gotten better. We're not there yet but we're getting there.
You just described two losing periods as something meaningful.
You should have saved it for Wednesday and gone back-to-back with Post of the Day awards.
You should have saved it for Wednesday and gone back-to-back with Post of the Day awards.
Thomas: Not sure if you are just being disingenuous or you're just effing stupid of stubborn to recognize that 14-35 and 16-19 are not the same. You'd also know that teams just don't go from 14-35 to 35-14 in 2-3 seasons.
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You just described two losing periods as something meaningful.
You should have saved it for Wednesday and gone back-to-back with Post of the Day awards.
Thomas: Not sure if you are just being disingenuous or you're just effing stupid of stubborn to recognize that 14-35 and 16-19 are not the same. You'd also know that teams just don't go from 14-35 to 35-14 in 2-3 seasons.
Here is what you struggle seeing…they are the same. They are losing stretches of football. They aren’t even average.
And teams can improve significantly in short periods of time. But they are typically are associated with finding the right solution at QB.
However, I can assure you losing teams that go through losing stretches while not even trying to improve at QB, have very little chance. And by the way, I’m being nice by not saying no chance.
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I can assure you losing teams that go through losing stretches while not even trying to improve at QB, have very little chance. And by the way, I’m being nice by not saying no chance.
You're not being nice, you're being cowardly. If you believe they have no chance, have the balls to say it. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too. If you were really being nice, you would've just left it at very little chance.
Maybe it was sarcasm.
😉
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In comment 16530818 Go Terps said:
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My recollection is they went 10-8-1, finished third in the division, went 1-5-1 in the division, went 0-5 against Philly and Dallas, and were absolutely destroyed in Philly to end the year.
What did they win?
My recollection is the we won enough games to make the playoffs and then won a playoff game - leading to our 3rd deepest playoff run in over 20 years. I can also recall going 10-3-1 against all teams other than Philly and Dallas.
Seems like a good year to me.
That's because our standards for the Giants are on the floor.
For some, yes.
FTFY.
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You just described two losing periods as something meaningful.
You should have saved it for Wednesday and gone back-to-back with Post of the Day awards.
Thomas: Not sure if you are just being disingenuous or you're just effing stupid of stubborn to recognize that 14-35 and 16-19 are not the same. You'd also know that teams just don't go from 14-35 to 35-14 in 2-3 seasons.
Timmy, I don't think you get to call anyone else stupid OR stubborn.
Maybe it was sarcasm.
😉
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In comment 16530840 UberAlias said:
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Is that in the end, we'll have an answer, one way or another. One side will be right, and the other will be wrong.
The end of this season we’ll have an answer to what? In the past 5 years we’ve changed everything out with this franchise other than the owner and the starting QB and the net outcome has barely changed.
But this is the season where some epiphany happens as to right versus wrong?
WTF are you talking about. If you take the past 5 years the Giants were 14-35 in the first three years of that period; in the last two they were 16-19-1. If you'd take the blinders off you'd realize that things have gotten better. We're not there yet but we're getting there.
Whatyou and others don't seem to understand is that "We aren't going anywhere" of signifinance without a QB that is a any combo of beiing better and healthy."
You need to take your blinders off and put away the pom poms.
And you will probbaly say this again next year.
And next year,
And next year.
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for how the season will go.
And you will probbaly say this again next year.
And next year,
And next year.
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In comment 16530848 UberAlias said:
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for how the season will go.
And you will probbaly say this again next year.
And next year,
And next year.
Of course. It's true every year, whether they do well or not.
Nor do we know if Judge could have ben a HOF coach the next year. Or know if DG could have been an excelent GM with 1 more year.
But it's called "reasonable expectation."
Reasonable expectation is that this is not a good team.
And a further reasonable expectation - is that if they improve to win 7/8 games, then that it is harder to get get a better opportunity to get the QB you might want.
Reasoable expectation is that they arent going to win more than 8 games.
Reasonable expectation is that this is not a good team.
And a further reasonable expectation - is that if they improve to win 7/8 games, then that it is harder to get get a better opportunity to get the QB you might want.
Reasoable expectation is that they arent going to win more than 8 games.
Hey I'll go you one better. In fact I can almost guarantee that the Giants don't win more than 14 games next year. Was a 'reasonable expectation' that the Giants would win 10 games in 2022 after going 4-13 the previous. No way. Was it even a reasonable expectation that they'd start 1-4 they next year and finish 6-11. Probably not. So stuff your reasonable expectations and let's play out the season.
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But it's called "reasonable expectation."
Reasonable expectation is that this is not a good team.
And a further reasonable expectation - is that if they improve to win 7/8 games, then that it is harder to get get a better opportunity to get the QB you might want.
Reasoable expectation is that they arent going to win more than 8 games.
Hey I'll go you one better. In fact I can almost guarantee that the Giants don't win more than 14 games next year. Was a 'reasonable expectation' that the Giants would win 10 games in 2022 after going 4-13 the previous. No way. Was it even a reasonable expectation that they'd start 1-4 they next year and finish 6-11. Probably not. So stuff your reasonable expectations and let's play out the season.
And yet the poster that is siding more toward your warped view was the one that's more in denial about reasonable excpectations.
And to imply/suggest it wouldn;t ahve been reaosoable they start last year 1-4 is just more of the lunacy some you keep coming up with. They have one good year over hwo many and yet you're oblivious to the possibility of a 1-4 start? Only a cheerleader could think like that.
I'm supsrised you didn't post more about that cheerleading as you did previously. Maybe you can give the team a hug. Sorry to defuse your pom pom waiving.
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In comment 16531234 giantstock said:
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In comment 16530848 UberAlias said:
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for how the season will go.
And you will probbaly say this again next year.
And next year,
And next year.
Of course. It's true every year, whether they do well or not.
Nor do we know if Judge could have ben a HOF coach the next year. Or know if DG could have been an excelent GM with 1 more year.
But it's called "reasonable expectation."
Reasonable expectation is that this is not a good team.
And a further reasonable expectation - is that if they improve to win 7/8 games, then that it is harder to get get a better opportunity to get the QB you might want.
Reasoable expectation is that they arent going to win more than 8 games.
And yet the poster that is siding more toward your warped view was the one that's more in denial about reasonable excpectations.
[/quote] If this is in reference to me, that's actually pretty funny. Go back and re-read.
And yet the poster that is siding more toward your warped view was the one that's more in denial about reasonable excpectations.
First off note I said “more toward . . .” Those words were not accident. Anyhow, this is what you said on another thread: Following up immediately with a 2nd post to address what you have said.
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IMO, there is a very broad range of outcomes when it comes to Jones
UberAlias : 5/21/2024 8:58 am : link : reply
On the negative side, we could easily see the exact same as we saw last year from him. Most specifically, being too skittish to attack down field. If that's what we get, I don't see any way he will remain the starter for long. I don't see how Daboll drafted the most explosive player in the draft and is taking over plan calling duties to have all of that fall on a guy who all he does is check down. Lock is not a great option, but he won't have that issue and we saw this team compete last year when TT was in there attacking vertically. We should have that one way or another this year.
On the positive side, it is possible we get the version of Jones the team was hoping for last year, which is one that can do what he showed in 2022 but taking a step forward with better talent around him. He has the physical ability as I think we saw a bit of in his rookie year and we also saw in training camp last year.
The later is a best case, and although I do think it is a possible outcome, we shouldn't confuse that with the idea that Jones is a long term answer. IN some sense I think people under estimate just how in a funk this team, especially the offense, was early on last year. Yes, that does happen in football --we saw it in Philly last year as an example (we beat them the last time this team was on the field, remember?). But while I do believe that is the case and thus am more open to a different outcome going forward than most are --we learned beyond a doubt that when adversity hits, especially the oline, Jones doesn't have it in him to step up. He curls into a shell.
So while I am far from sharing the view that this 2024 season is lost --contrary, I believe we will likely compete. But in terms of building a contender, we're still missing that most critical piece, which I think is an obvious statement.
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So it seems we might have a good OL but it seems mediocre to me. And SY indicated in one post there are lot of Maybes. So, as a fan, how am I not supposed to be pissed to some degree that I agree with you that we aren’t building a contender with Jones while we potentially passed on some QB’'s that might be better? Which I feel they should have been taken. And so did SY as well as quite a few analysts.
My point is that WE DO HAVE ANSWERS WHICH YOU CLAIM WE DON”T. IE YOU ARE MORE FAVORED TO SNRKELS THAN SOME OF US THAT FEEL WE ARE RIGHT. Yet we have to understand that The RISK IS NOT WORTH THE REWARD with Jones due to his injury issues and overall the belief we will never be a contender with him. So, if I feel that I’m right, just as I was above (I have ben wrong about a lot of things too), and one of those QB’s hit while Giants flounder in mediocrity, how can I not feel that JS and Daboll are not clowns? And your view of trying to be positive – I feel is way off base. Keep in mind I used ot fight a ton with GoTerps and Gatrorade on Jones. At some point though “enough is enough.”
Yet you continue to post “we don’t know.” But we more-than-likely we do. You can’t try to twist this into a court of law. But imo you’re just in denial just like snorkles by the very comment “we don’t know” highlights this.
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And your point is what, exactly? That you don't think they are going to be good? Congratulations. Like I said, we will find out.
And yet on ather thread you'll say "we don't know" yet again. Way to go and keep moving the goalposts as you continually do. You're a fan not a lawyer. Take a stand on something.
To be honest G-stock I have no idea what you are talking about, but let me try one last time. Is it a reasonable expectation that Jones doesn't play well or the OL improvement is a mirage or that the young receivers need more time to develop and its another disappointing season BUT it is also a reasonable expectation that Jones does play closer to his 2022 form, the OL is finally at least competent, that the young receivers finally provide the Giants with a big-play component, and that the young DL starts to consistently disrupt other teams passing attacks such that the Giants again at least compete for a playoff spot. I don't know which is going to happen. You sure as hell don't know which is going to happen. What sane people are willing to do is wait and see how the season plays out rather than shooting our mouths off that all is lost before they've played a down.
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And yet on ather thread you'll say "we don't know" yet again. Way to go and keep moving the goalposts as you continually do. You're a fan not a lawyer. Take a stand on something.
To be honest G-stock I have no idea what you are talking about, but let me try one last time. Is it a reasonable expectation that Jones doesn't play well or the OL improvement is a mirage or that the young receivers need more time to develop and its another disappointing season BUT it is also a reasonable expectation that Jones does play closer to his 2022 form, the OL is finally at least competent, that the young receivers finally provide the Giants with a big-play component, and that the young DL starts to consistently disrupt other teams passing attacks such that the Giants again at least compete for a playoff spot. I don't know which is going to happen. You sure as hell don't know which is going to happen. What sane people are willing to do is wait and see how the season plays out rather than shooting our mouths off that all is lost before they've played a down.
But here is what I am trying to say with you and uber- please don't take my 8 win post in the manner you did - but if they get 8 wins - and yet as what uber states which many us believe as well- - - when uber said
"But in terms of building a contender, we're still missing that most critical piece, which I think is an obvious statement."
If anyone believes this which I do - then where is the 8 win season taking us? And long term what's the plan to work toward being a contender?
The only thing I can see is that they remain mediocre and draft trenches until we're more that mediocre. And I saw this dart they didn't take any trenches. True they got Burns in a trade and they got some OL in FA but if we're not building to be a contender, why waste money to be mediocre?
Just so you can say "we want to compete be mediocre?"
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In comment 16531537 giantstock said:
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And your point is what, exactly? That you don't think they are going to be good? Congratulations. Like I said, we will find out.
And yet on ather thread you'll say "we don't know" yet again. Way to go and keep moving the goalposts as you continually do. You're a fan not a lawyer. Take a stand on something.
I have not moved the goal post at all. I have maintained that there are legitimate arguments to be made for this team having a successful year or a bad one. And yet the pessimistic crowd continues to take objection to this like it's some crazy take. I've not taken away from the negative arguments other than offering that there are also counter arguments. I've literally acknowledged there is truth to them, yet for some reason many, including you, are having a hard time with anyone who doesn't agree that it's a certainty that the team is going to suck. In a neutral stance, I merely reflected that despite all the back and forth in the end we'll get to find out which side was right, and that was somehow objectionable to you.
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And yet on ather thread you'll say "we don't know" yet again. Way to go and keep moving the goalposts as you continually do. You're a fan not a lawyer. Take a stand on something.
To be honest G-stock I have no idea what you are talking about, but let me try one last time. Is it a reasonable expectation that Jones doesn't play well or the OL improvement is a mirage or that the young receivers need more time to develop and its another disappointing season BUT it is also a reasonable expectation that Jones does play closer to his 2022 form, the OL is finally at least competent, that the young receivers finally provide the Giants with a big-play component, and that the young DL starts to consistently disrupt other teams passing attacks such that the Giants again at least compete for a playoff spot. I don't know which is going to happen. You sure as hell don't know which is going to happen. What sane people are willing to do is wait and see how the season plays out rather than shooting our mouths off that all is lost before they've played a down.
That said, it is also reasonable that they will finish with a winning record.
It is possible that Jones will exceed his 2022 performance. We know that the coach has had success in his 3rd year with a toolsy and marginally effective QB.
At the end of the day, all arguments are on the table. But, "we shall see" is the only thing that resonates.
That's an interesting statement and I guess it has some validity especially if nothing has changed. My thinking though has always been that in the end "the only season that matters is the one in front of you." And personally at this point I couldn't care less what happened 5 or 10 years ago. Those were different teams with largely different players. What I'm doing is looking at the team in front of us and thinking that it will in fact be very disappointing if this team doesn't win 9-10 games and compete for a playoff spot, at least barring one or two major units being wiped out by injuries. And I say that because it looks like the OL should finally be at least competent, that with the young receivers the Giants have the real potential for an explosive big-play offence, and that with the young DL group we have the potential for a very disruptive defence. Of course, the elephant in the room remains the QB situation, but actual football people who know far more about NFL QBs than anyone in this room who who have worked with the guy every day for several years now seem to think that Jones has the physical tools, mental make-up and work ethic to be successful in the league if given some tools to work with. Time will tell.
1) most participants are here to debate and learn about football
2) there's always been a burden of proof in debates
That we can be bust each other's chops along the way, but then move on to the next topic in good faith, has always been a feature not a defect on this site.
What I do find very bizarre (this is not directed to Brown Hornet), is an upswing in contributions around the idea of "well we don't know, so why are we talking about it?"
No shit, of course we don't know. We're all simply making guesses and debating with the facts we have.
1) most participants are here to debate and learn about football
2) there's always been a burden of proof in debates
That we can be bust each other's chops along the way, but then move on to the next topic in good faith, has always been a feature not a defect on this site.
What I do find very bizarre (this is not directed to Brown Hornet), is an upswing in contributions around the idea of "well we don't know, so why are we talking about it?"
No shit, of course we don't know. We're all simply making guesses and debating with the facts we have.
Many of the "facts" that we debate with are circumstantial and therefore, debatable in and of themselves.
Some come here for information only. They should be prepared for hot takes from all directions because while we don't know...we should be talking about it.
We actually know this team will not be good. The quarterback and running back rooms are the very worst in the entire NFL. The OL is fixed? Runyan is simply the next Glowinski. Evan Neal is terrible. JMS needs to step up big time or enter into the "is he a bust?" debate next year. The defense has clearly been upgraded and may be good this year, but like 2017, they won't be good in the second half of games when they are gassed from being on the field seventy percent of the time.
The only question is, will the Giants win more than five games and destroy any chance again of getting an elite quarterback prospect in the 2025 draft? My guess is no and they will indeed have a top three pick next year, but I am apparently not entitled to this opinion since it is only time that can tell such things...
We actually know this team will not be good. The quarterback and running back rooms are the very worst in the entire NFL. The OL is fixed? Runyan is simply the next Glowinski. Evan Neal is terrible. JMS needs to step up big time or enter into the "is he a bust?" debate next year. The defense has clearly been upgraded and may be good this year, but like 2017, they won't be good in the second half of games when they are gassed from being on the field seventy percent of the time.
The only question is, will the Giants win more than five games and destroy any chance again of getting an elite quarterback prospect in the 2025 draft? My guess is no and they will indeed have a top three pick next year, but I am apparently not entitled to this opinion since it is only time that can tell such things...
What does it mean to 'know' something?
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In comment 16531604 UberAlias said:
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In comment 16531537 giantstock said:
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And your point is what, exactly? That you don't think they are going to be good? Congratulations. Like I said, we will find out.
And yet on ather thread you'll say "we don't know" yet again. Way to go and keep moving the goalposts as you continually do. You're a fan not a lawyer. Take a stand on something.
I have not moved the goal post at all. I have maintained that there are legitimate arguments to be made for this team having a successful year or a bad one. And yet the pessimistic crowd continues to take objection to this like it's some crazy take. I've not taken away from the negative arguments other than offering that there are also counter arguments. I've literally acknowledged there is truth to them, yet for some reason many, including you, are having a hard time with anyone who doesn't agree that it's a certainty that the team is going to suck. In a neutral stance, I merely reflected that despite all the back and forth in the end we'll get to find out which side was right, and that was somehow objectionable to you.
OFC you have. Your past post that we don't know the answers is in reply to posters opinions beliefs that Giants won't be good. Even your reply to me is featuring us "naysayers." Yet on another thread as I pointed out you imply Jones is a big issue and you identify the alternatives while continuing to go after those of us that believe that the Giants will not be good. How is it that we’re wrong if you also acknowledge that Jones is a long term issue?
why don't you just say "we don't know the answers" - which you hide behind instead of taking a stand - and follow that up with "we can go 17-0 or 0-17 this team depending on how each player plays?" That's basically what you're saying and trying desperately to go after the naysayers.
If you are who I think you are- you and I have been in agreement for a long time about the trenches. But if this is you- somehow you've been twisted into minimizing QB play which is why you might be more reluctant to criticize the non QB pick.
If you do believe Jones is an issue (and you are not minimizing QB play) then why are you hiding behind the comment "we don’t; know?" These are opinions form those of us that believe we are right that the QB play long terms from Jones will impact this franchise in a negative way. You are just playing both sides of the fence while moving the goalposts whenever it suits you.
But we won't do any better than 2022. 2022 was Daniel Jones at his best...and that "best" wasn't good enough to beat the upper echelon teams. And if in 2024, you think a game manager is going to get to the Super Bowl, you may want to adjust your meds. The rule changes have made having a top echelon QB a requirement to contend.
Daniel Jones is a poor man's Alex Smith. That's what he is. Kansas City was never going to win a championship with Smith, even with one of the best QB guru's around (Andy Reid), and their organization knew it. That's why he was replaced.
Was Smith a good player? Sure, he was good, he won a lot of games. But he wasn't going to beat teams with upper echelon QB's. Kurt Cousins, who has to be considered a better QB than DJ, hasn't been able to beat the upper echelon teams as well. It's no shame, it's just reality.
The real rebuild will start in 2025, when the Giants make a decision on the QB position. The key is to build the team up so that we can have a similar path that KC had when they replaced Smith with Mahomes.