Contact Info
Administration
Coaching Staff
Coaching History
Annual Records
Hall Of Fame
Retired Jerseys
Ring Of Honor
|
|
|
| Quote: |
| Michael Lombardi @mlombardiNFL What has Jones ever done to deserve this deal and eat up 18.8% of the Giants’ cap? He is 6-21 against teams that went on to make the playoffs, 0-11 against teams that won twelve or more games, and according to NFL research, the only quarterback to receive a contract in excess of $100 million and never have a season of throwing for 3,500 yards, or 25 plus touchdowns. |
Jones received the 8th highest contract in NFL history at time of signing
QB salaries keep going up...
and if Jones doesnt perform this year he is GONE anyway..
Lombardi really needs to drop his axe that he keeps grinding..
Looked to see if there was an injury/recovery update and I get two year old crap.
11-21.
Such a blowhard who’s jealousy of the Giants never wanting him or his son has no bounds.
No choice but to let it play out. This is it one way or the other.
[quote] was given out with the understanding that QB contracts for starters were continuing to elevate. Trevor Lawrence is about to get a 50 million dollar deal soon and he hasnt won a playoff game. Justin Herbert got a huge extension. Dak is going to get paid again. Cj Stroud will get a new deal in a year or two.
QB salaries keep going up...
and if Jones doesnt perform this year he is GONE anyway..
Lombardi really needs to drop his axe that he keeps grinding.. [/quote
Actually Lawrence did win a playoff game
11-21.
Such a blowhard who’s jealousy of the Giants never wanting him or his son has no bounds.
You could say he was the Daniel Jones of GMs
The Giants just finished OTAs. Jones by all accounts looked great which matters in May because of his injuries. There's much excitement about Nabers and how explosive our passing game could be with him and a year better Hyatt/WDR.
And on this day, he tweets bitching about Jone's contract with cherry picked bad stats.
Jones is also the only QB in the entire history of the NFL to ever throw for 350 yards with 5 TDs and no interceptions in a game. And so?
And BTW, on the never 25 TDs (because that's a magic number?)- he threw for 24. In 12 starts.
He either has a good season or he’s done. It’s that simple. I think he will play well but people think he has to play all pro level and that’s unfair. He now has weapons, expectations are higher. I think he can hit 3800 yards if the receivers stay healthy.
The Giants just finished OTAs. Jones by all accounts looked great which matters in May because of his injuries. There's much excitement about Nabers and how explosive our passing game could be with him and a year better Hyatt/WDR.
And on this day, he tweets bitching about Jone's contract with cherry picked bad stats.
Jones is also the only QB in the entire history of the NFL to ever throw for 350 yards with 5 TDs and no interceptions in a game. And so?
And BTW, on the never 25 TDs (because that's a magic number?)- he threw for 24. In 12 starts.
HBart you sound like some us that defended Eli in his young career. At that time you were on the opposing side, diminishing Eli’s twenty td passing seasons. At that time twenty td passing seasons (especially consecutive seasons as a young qb) was a pretty good barometer for success.
No offense intended, but who cares if he works his butt off and is a great teammate? This is the NFL, not pop-warner. Production is what matters, not does he try hard and is liked by him teammates.
Lombardi has an axe to grind against the Giants, but what he said isn't wrong. It is just one guy who is bad at his job criticizing another guy who is bad at his job.
The Giants just finished OTAs. Jones by all accounts looked great which matters in May because of his injuries. There's much excitement about Nabers and how explosive our passing game could be with him and a year better Hyatt/WDR.
And on this day, he tweets bitching about Jone's contract with cherry picked bad stats.
Jones is also the only QB in the entire history of the NFL to ever throw for 350 yards with 5 TDs and no interceptions in a game. And so?
And BTW, on the never 25 TDs (because that's a magic number?)- he threw for 24. In 12 starts.
Red meat sells.
Look at cable news...same shit, different topic.
BBI is fucking IDIOTIC with the whole DURR ITS A NARRATIVE FOR CLICKS bullshit they trot out when someone points out obvious truths about that posters don't like. Fucking delusional.
Quote:
You may not think he is good, but the man works his butt off, is a great teammate and is the starter for at least this year.
No offense intended, but who cares if he works his butt off and is a great teammate? This is the NFL, not pop-warner. Production is what matters, not does he try hard and is liked by him teammates.
Lombardi has an axe to grind against the Giants, but what he said isn't wrong. It is just one guy who is bad at his job criticizing another guy who is bad at his job.
The point is there is absolutely no purpose to his tweet except to be divisive. None. No new info. No new insight. Only a rehash of what we all know.
Sometimes better to be silent and look foolish than open your mouth a prove it - Lombardi continues to prove it.
The Giants deserve to be continuously destroyed for that contract. It was that fucking stupid.
Lombardi has an axe to grind against the Giants, but what he said isn't wrong. It is just one guy who is bad at his job criticizing another guy who is bad at his job.
Haha. I like this quote.
Just change your handle again. You’ll feel better.
He is such a Clown!
The Giants deserve to be continuously destroyed for that contract. It was that fucking stupid.
Well I guess you like hearing the same shit over and over. I sometimes wonder if you like to be contentious just to be contentious.
If this dipshit offered some new insight, it would be fine. What exactly did he say that was somewhat important? Right - same shit many have been saying for a long time. Asshole that likes to hear his own voice.
If this ass can even get the anti-DJ crowd pissed off, he is useless .
You can argue he is kicking dirt on Jones and the Giants for something that has obviously not worked out the way they wanted, but not sure how it is simultaneously not relevant and also divisive.
Quote:
If the Giants were good and he was critical, that's a different story. But the Giants have been one of the worst organizations in the NFL for a decade now. Criticizing them is like saying grass is green - it's the only way to talk about them and not be full of shit.
The Giants deserve to be continuously destroyed for that contract. It was that fucking stupid.
Well I guess you like hearing the same shit over and over. I sometimes wonder if you like to be contentious just to be contentious.
If this dipshit offered some new insight, it would be fine. What exactly did he say that was somewhat important? Right - same shit many have been saying for a long time. Asshole that likes to hear his own voice.
If this ass can even get the anti-DJ crowd pissed off, he is useless .
90% of NFL content isn't "new insight". That's not why it bothers you.
but sure let's do some mindless outrage so we can get "the gm" cliks. keep eating up that misery bait and swallowing it whole.
They’re in the business of generating clicks. Players left yesterday for the next 6 weeks, which means nothing new to report on until mid-July
Tweet something critical to rile up fans and get attention. It’s a tired, but as proven by this thread being started, a consistently effective technique
Don't judge a book by it's cover? - ( New Window )
and that's all counting the entirely non-guaranteed 20.6% 4th year (and the partially guaranteed 16% 3rd year).
if they exit Jones after 2 years he will have gotten ~13% over the 2 years. the 2023 tag would have = 14.5%.
not as much in 2022, but you might not remember that.
Well the funny thing about that is that in the list of "MICHAEL LOMBARDI’S SPEECH TOPICS" he's got:
"The Secret to All Victory Lies in the Non-Obvious" --And yet he's here declaring that the Giants overpaid Daniel Jones. So much for winning with the non-obvious, I guess, LOL.
Quote:
Just read the game threads.
not as much in 2022, but you might not remember that.
lol. If there ever is a perk of the giants winning this year is that he will run away again.
and that's all counting the entirely non-guaranteed 20.6% 4th year (and the partially guaranteed 16% 3rd year).
if they exit Jones after 2 years he will have gotten ~13% over the 2 years. the 2023 tag would have = 14.5%.
You don't contend for Super Bowls paying QB12 money to QB29.
Quote:
In comment 16535980 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Just read the game threads.
not as much in 2022, but you might not remember that.
lol. If there ever is a perk of the giants winning this year is that he will run away again.
Yeah we all fondly recall a BBI moderator losing his mind and threatening to ban anyone expressing opinions different than his own.
It's strange what you hold onto as a fond memory.
If someone has nothing new to say, why post it? What's the point? All it does is encourage more of the same.
Quote:
You may not think he is good, but the man works his butt off, is a great teammate and is the starter for at least this year.
No offense intended, but who cares if he works his butt off and is a great teammate? This is the NFL, not pop-warner. Production is what matters, not does he try hard and is liked by him teammates.
Lombardi has an axe to grind against the Giants, but what he said isn't wrong. It is just one guy who is bad at his job criticizing another guy who is bad at his job.
You never hear about his skill, just that he’s a hard worker and great guy
Quote:
if russell wilsons real gtd money that he's getting paid by DEN counted, he'd be QB13 and if Aaron Rodgers didn't take a paycut he'd be QB14.
and that's all counting the entirely non-guaranteed 20.6% 4th year (and the partially guaranteed 16% 3rd year).
if they exit Jones after 2 years he will have gotten ~13% over the 2 years. the 2023 tag would have = 14.5%.
You don't contend for Super Bowls paying QB12 money to QB29.
seems like maybe they need to first figure out how to contend for winning records more than twice/decade.
This is accurate. Jones isn’t the worst starting QB - but being payed in the 10-12 range is still very bad.
*except pretending the year he got extended off didnt happen when he was QB11 in EPA/play and QB6 in QBR.
If anything you’re making the case for why the contract was bad. They extended him off an ok, not great year where the team slipped in the second half of the year.
If anything you’re making the case for why the contract was bad. They extended him off an ok, not great year where the team slipped in the second half of the year.
a) you're cherry picking 1 stat that ignores the fact that a big part of the job is not making mistakes (he was 1st in INT%)
b) is 14th in the league still "at best 20-25th"?
and yes, for the purposes of the guys who extended him id imagine the 2 prior years were close to meaningless. id say those years impacted their decision to decline his option, but what he did with them likely factored in exponentially more than what previously incompetent regimes did with him.
thank you Sean i appreciate that. contrary to what lombardi tells you most of the professionals arent complete morons and if you look hard enough there's some level of data supporting 99% of the $ decisions they all make. the market is pretty simple that way.
lombardi is about as close to a moron as a formerly employed gm can get, which is why he only lasted 1 year and in the decade since has had to self title his "gm" brand. He is a full time click bait troll and part time hype man for whoever employs his kids.
Was Jones actually a more valuable QB than Burrow and Herbert because his QBR was higher? Was he better than Goff in 2022 because his EPA was higher? Or are advanced stats not everything?
Quote:
If you don’t count any other QBs rushing TDS that puts him at 14th in the league in touchdowns. Do the two years prior to that not count?
If anything you’re making the case for why the contract was bad. They extended him off an ok, not great year where the team slipped in the second half of the year.
a) you're cherry picking 1 stat that ignores the fact that a big part of the job is not making mistakes (he was 1st in INT%)
b) is 14th in the league still "at best 20-25th"?
and yes, for the purposes of the guys who extended him id imagine the 2 prior years were close to meaningless. id say those years impacted their decision to decline his option, but what he did with them likely factored in exponentially more than what
previously incompetent regimes did with him.
He was first in INT% because he took fewer chances. All the passing metrics say this. You want to refuse to acknowledge that his lack of productivity (by choice) led to the low INT%? What's more important than not making mistakes? Being productive! And all Jones' productivity passing metrics were bottom 3rd of the league in 2022. and very bottom in 2023.
In 2022:
Jones was 24th in Y/A. 28th in TD%. 26th in sack rate.
6.1 percent of Jones’ pass attempts traveled at least 20 yards in the air in 2022, 33rd in the NFL.
Jones’ average pass traveled 3.1 yards short of the first down markers in 2022, 34th in the NFL.
Jones' average 6.4 air yards per attempt in 2022, was 30th in the NFL.
He sacrificed productivity to have a low INT%, and that is an unacceptable trade-off.
Go Terps : 6/4/2024 6:19 pm : link : reply
If you look into the 2022 stats it tells quite a story. Here are the Giants' league rankings in the following offensive stats:
Total number of plays run: 13th
Rush attempts: 8th
Pass attempts: 25th
Yards/Rush Attempt: 5th
Yards/Pass Attempt: 24th
Intended air yards/pass attempt: 30th
Pass TD%: 26th
Pass Int%: 1st (meaning lowest percentage of intercepted passed in the league)
In sum, here's the 2022 Giants passing offense, in an image:
Then when they tried to put a little more on Jones in 2023, we got this:
Daniel Jones wasn't a good passer in 2022. He was a good runner. And now he's recovering from a torn ACL.
Link - ( New Window )
Was Jones actually a more valuable QB than Burrow and Herbert because his QBR was higher? Was he better than Goff in 2022 because his EPA was higher? Or are advanced stats not everything?
Hurry up and fax this important and obvious non-advanced data to Lamar/Goff/Burrow/Herbert's agents so they can make sure to get their clients more $ than Jones!!!
yes hard to believe an offense that started david sills at WR for the first month of the season wasn't running a vertical passing game. real genius level stuff here, you should send lombardi your resume. he can give you a segment called "the agent shuffle".
Quote:
If we count those for everyone else he’s probably back down to the late teens.
Was Jones actually a more valuable QB than Burrow and Herbert because his QBR was higher? Was he better than Goff in 2022 because his EPA was higher? Or are advanced stats not everything?
Hurry up and fax this important and obvious non-advanced data to Lamar/Goff/Burrow/Herbert's agents so they can make sure to get their clients more $ than Jones!!!
Missing the point as always. If I’m just cherry picking his normal stats aren’t you just cherry picking his advanced stats that make him look better than he actually was in 2022?
The name of the game is scoring points, preferably more than the other team. As a passer, the main component to playing QB, he was 21st in TDs, 24th in N/YA, 19th in A/YA.
The Giants didn’t run an offense that took risks which inflated his efficiency because it kept the turnovers away. If you have to run a remedial offense because you’re afraid your QB is going to turn the ball over, you don’t have a QB worth being the 12th highest paid in the league.
Quote:
Had to use smoke and mirrors to minimize his turnovers was 14th. If they ran any sort of vertical passing game in 2022 he wouldn’t have been top 12 in EPA.
yes hard to believe an offense that started david sills at WR for the first month of the season wasn't running a vertical passing game. real genius level stuff here, you should send lombardi your resume. he can give you a segment called "the agent shuffle".
lol, interesting you always feel the need to bring up my profession in a condescending way.
So at least you admit his EPA was fraudulent because of the offense they ran.
Wentz was top 10 in QBR and EPA in 2021, that proved a lot. Geno had the same QBR and a higher EPA in 2022 and he was not made the 12th highest paid QB. Brissett has been top 10 in both and he’s still a journeyman. It’s almost like you don’t pay a guy with below average career production in regular stats $40 million a year because his advanced stats are great one year.
Quote:
Make him stop. It hurts me feelings.
Just change your handle again. You’ll feel better.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Quote:
If we count those for everyone else he’s probably back down to the late teens.
Was Jones actually a more valuable QB than Burrow and Herbert because his QBR was higher? Was he better than Goff in 2022 because his EPA was higher? Or are advanced stats not everything?
Hurry up and fax this important and obvious non-advanced data to Lamar/Goff/Burrow/Herbert's agents so they can make sure to get their clients more $ than Jones!!!
Jealousy isn't a great color on you.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
This. They didn’t pay Jones because his EPA was high, they paid him because they thought they could keep it high while also getting 25-30 touchdowns from him, which through one year of the contract has a been a failure.
Advanced stats are meaningless when not used hand in hand with production. David Garrard has the 7th highest QBR season of all time and had the second best QBR in 2007, despite being 18th in YPG, 16th in TDs per game.
Quote:
There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
Quote:
In comment 16536049 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
If we count those for everyone else he’s probably back down to the late teens.
Was Jones actually a more valuable QB than Burrow and Herbert because his QBR was higher? Was he better than Goff in 2022 because his EPA was higher? Or are advanced stats not everything?
Hurry up and fax this important and obvious non-advanced data to Lamar/Goff/Burrow/Herbert's agents so they can make sure to get their clients more $ than Jones!!!
Jealousy isn't a great color on you.
oh hey look GD with a stalking midstream comment that has nothing to do with the thread. closet full of that color.
This. They didn’t pay Jones because his EPA was high, they paid him because they thought they could keep it high while also getting 25-30 touchdowns from him, which through one year of the contract has a been a failure.
welcome to reality. if even HE (daniel jones) believed he was a top 10 Qb he wouldnt have signed the deal he signed. look how much all the guys around him got. it was a risk/reward contract for both sides.
Quote:
In comment 16536083 christian said:
Quote:
There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
For about 12 hours, yes. After the elation of the playoff win wore off, logical thought took back over.
After the Philadelphia game (which did happen), most of the good feeling around the team was gone for me. It was clear what they were: a pretty poor team that was the beneficiary of a good deal of luck and an excellent coaching performance.
I'm right that the Philadelphia game happened? Winning in Minnesota wasn't the Super Bowl?
Quote:
In comment 16536058 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16536049 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
If we count those for everyone else he’s probably back down to the late teens.
Was Jones actually a more valuable QB than Burrow and Herbert because his QBR was higher? Was he better than Goff in 2022 because his EPA was higher? Or are advanced stats not everything?
Hurry up and fax this important and obvious non-advanced data to Lamar/Goff/Burrow/Herbert's agents so they can make sure to get their clients more $ than Jones!!!
Jealousy isn't a great color on you.
oh hey look GD with a stalking midstream comment that has nothing to do with the thread. closet full of that color.
You're making comments about someone's profession, repeatedly, but I'm the stalker?
I don't even want to imagine the sort of TRO that Kent Platte might have to get.
Quote:
This. They didn’t pay Jones because his EPA was high, they paid him because they thought they could keep it high while also getting 25-30 touchdowns from him, which through one year of the contract has a been a failure.
welcome to reality. if even HE (daniel jones) believed he was a top 10 Qb he wouldnt have signed the deal he signed. look how much all the guys around him got. it was a risk/reward contract for both sides.
And so far the risk has outweighed the reward and the contract so far has been bad.
That’s living in reality. The only thing that matters is what happens after the contract is signed. With how 2022 went even a contract that paid him 20th in the league would be a bad contract.
If he was say the Panthers QB no one would know who he was. He's only talked about mainstream because of being in NY
You're making comments about someone's profession, repeatedly, but I'm the stalker?
I don't even want to imagine the sort of TRO that Kent Platte might have to get.
just to be clear the only reason i make light of his stated profession is because he brings it up as his credential in these cap related discussions when oftentimes he's got basic facts wrong like "at best 20-25".
your vocation as bbi's resident thread stalker is in a different category of emotional disorder that im surprised i havent just muted yet but i guess no time like the present.
Quote:
In comment 16536085 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16536083 christian said:
Quote:
There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
For about 12 hours, yes. After the elation of the playoff win wore off, logical thought took back over.
After the Philadelphia game (which did happen), most of the good feeling around the team was gone for me. It was clear what they were: a pretty poor team that was the beneficiary of a good deal of luck and an excellent coaching performance.
I'm right that the Philadelphia game happened? Winning in Minnesota wasn't the Super Bowl?
From my pov Terps, you are very harsh with the Giants decisions (understandable to a point). I also think that it is somewhat probable that you believe you would be a much better GM of the team based on your comments over the years. You (probably through emotion) thought Jones should be paid after beating a team with an absolute terrible defense (possibly historically bad). It just seems a little off that you often mock the Giants and other fans for talking positively about the Minnesota playoff win, yet that very game was a deciding factor in your thinking that Jones should be paid.
Him having one year of top 10 EPA doesn’t mean he’s not still a bottom third QB in the league.
Quote:
In comment 16536089 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
This. They didn’t pay Jones because his EPA was high, they paid him because they thought they could keep it high while also getting 25-30 touchdowns from him, which through one year of the contract has a been a failure.
welcome to reality. if even HE (daniel jones) believed he was a top 10 Qb he wouldnt have signed the deal he signed. look how much all the guys around him got. it was a risk/reward contract for both sides.
And so far the risk has outweighed the reward and the contract so far has been bad.
That’s living in reality. The only thing that matters is what happens after the contract is signed. With how 2022 went even a contract that paid him 20th in the league would be a bad contract.
there are never guarantees on how the future will go after signing contracts. just ask browns/watson and broncos/wilson. obviously 2023 was a disaster, nobody argued otherwise, just as nobody would argue otherwise that those other deals ended up being disasters even though they were well understood at the time. if you like a player and want their rights for multiple seasons, you have to meet whatever the price is. judging by how they handled this offseason even after the ACL/2023 disaster they still like jones a good amount. unlike 2022 they are wagering a pretty substantial amount of their careers on him.
Him having one year of top 10 EPA doesn’t mean he’s not still a bottom third QB in the league.
it's a basic fact that "at best" he was better than 20-25th.
Quote:
In comment 16536100 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
In comment 16536085 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16536083 christian said:
Quote:
There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
For about 12 hours, yes. After the elation of the playoff win wore off, logical thought took back over.
After the Philadelphia game (which did happen), most of the good feeling around the team was gone for me. It was clear what they were: a pretty poor team that was the beneficiary of a good deal of luck and an excellent coaching performance.
I'm right that the Philadelphia game happened? Winning in Minnesota wasn't the Super Bowl?
From my pov Terps, you are very harsh with the Giants decisions (understandable to a point). I also think that it is somewhat probable that you believe you would be a much better GM of the team based on your comments over the years. You (probably through emotion) thought Jones should be paid after beating a team with an absolute terrible defense (possibly historically bad). It just seems a little off that you often mock the Giants and other fans for talking positively about the Minnesota playoff win, yet that very game was a deciding factor in your thinking that Jones should be paid.
I'm as apt to get emotional about something as anyone else. Winning a playoff game after so many years of bad football felt good.
But I'm also smart enough to know you don't make big decisions when you're emotional, and you don't forecast the future based on the most optimistic outlier you can find.
There are 32 teams in the league, and over the last decade the Giants have I believe the second or third worst record of the 32...and you think I'm being harsh on them? Is that a joke?
Quote:
This. They didn’t pay Jones because his EPA was high, they paid him because they thought they could keep it high while also getting 25-30 touchdowns from him, which through one year of the contract has a been a failure.
welcome to reality. if even HE (daniel jones) believed he was a top 10 Qb he wouldnt have signed the deal he signed. look how much all the guys around him got. it was a risk/reward contract for both sides.
Jones got the least amount of guaranteed money of any current quarterback playing under a contract extension except for Baker Mayfield, who was on four different teams in twenty months.
Quote:
In terms of QB rankings or is that opinion whether he is or isn’t?
Him having one year of top 10 EPA doesn’t mean he’s not still a bottom third QB in the league.
it's a basic fact that "at best" he was better than 20-25th.
You’re twisting the post. You said he was currently QB12 in terms of cap hit and I posted they were paying him that as QB20-25 at best CURRENTLY. What he did in 2022 is irrelevant to how he has currently played to his current cap hit. They didn’t get 2022 Jones in 2023. We don’t know if they even get 2022 Jones in 2024 So far the contract is bad. At least argue honestly if you’re going to take shots at people.
So is it a basic fact that he’s better than 20-25th currently?
Quote:
In comment 16536126 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In terms of QB rankings or is that opinion whether he is or isn’t?
Him having one year of top 10 EPA doesn’t mean he’s not still a bottom third QB in the league.
it's a basic fact that "at best" he was better than 20-25th.
You’re twisting the post. You said he was currently QB12 in terms of cap hit and I posted they were paying him that as QB20-25 at best CURRENTLY. What he did in 2022 is irrelevant to how he has currently played to his current cap hit. They didn’t get 2022 Jones in 2023. We don’t know if they even get 2022 Jones in 2024 So far the contract is bad. At least argue honestly if you’re going to take shots at people.
So is it a basic fact that he’s better than 20-25th currently?
this was your post:
In comment 16536006 ajr2456 said:
they quite obviously didnt pay him to be 20-25th. they paid him because they think he is better than that, and at his best he was. off the acl i have no idea what he will be but they seem to be confident enough to put their jobs on him being better than 20-25.
Do you not see the irony of mocking the team and it's fans that reflect on the Minnesota playoff win positively when you also thought of it positively enough to be ok with paying Jones?
Just an observation.
Again, in a league designed to help bad teams and attrite good teams, the Giants have contrived to be one of the two or three worst over a sample size of almost 200 games.
They have been an incompetent, unlikable embarrassment. We're all here because of nostalgia, inertia, and habit - if you arrived here from Mars today and decided to be an NFL fan there's little reason to choose the Giants.
Imagine viewing this past decade from an objective Martian perspective. You might find yourself exclaiming...
"$1.6 billion for THAT stadium?"
"One of their draft guys is an owner, and left the draft to go to a horse race?!"
"The owner let the GM and head coach bench the QB, but he turned around and fired them because the QB cried?!"
"They pretended to conduct a GM search so they could hire THAT guy?!"
"Wait, did they just draft a running back #2 overall?!"
"Did that GM just call a reporter 'darling'?!"
"They paid the vet QB $23M just so they could bench him after two games?!"
"They gifted their fans a medium Pepsi?!"
"The owner said WHAT about the QB during a contract negotiation?!"
"Wait, they're paying THAT guy $160M?!"
You know who would have done a better job? Eric from BBI's kid. She was spot on with the Clown Show image.
Jones got his contract because he had the Giants by the short hairs once Barkley was tagged (in my opinion because of Mara). After a road playoff win, they couldn’t let Jones walk. While its true that Jones had always had weak or worse OLs and receivers that were nothing special, he has not shown an ability to carry the team without his running and I’m guessing that will be severely curtailed this year if only because of the injury clause in his contract. The OL is better and Nabors plus some other WR talent is a major upgrade.
We can rehash what’s been discussed here millions of times already or we can just see how the year unfolds. I will wait to see what happens
Do you not see the irony of mocking the team and it's fans that reflect on the Minnesota playoff win positively when you also thought of it positively enough to be ok with paying Jones?
Just an observation.
Do you not understand the idea of being happy about something to a point where it briefly blonde you too reality? If you get a lap dance do you ask the stripper to marry you?
He’s only here to troll. Probably not even a Giants fan.
Quote:
Alright, that answers my question. You do not get it. Carry on.
He’s only here to troll. Probably not even a Giants fan.
Quite the long con, hanging around BBI for 19 years just to troll
this was your post:
In comment 16536006 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Paying QB 12 money To QB 20-25 at best is still bad.
they quite obviously didnt pay him to be 20-25th. they paid him because they think he is better than that, and at his best he was. off the acl i have no idea what he will be but they seem to be confident enough to put their jobs on him being better than 20-25.
But currently he isnt better than top 20-25 and they are paying him as QB12, that’s bad.
What they thought he’d be and what they thought they were paying him to be is irrelevant to evaluating the contract.
It’s currently a bad contract because he’s a bottom 3rd QB currently. There’s really nothing outlandish in that post, I’m not sure where the disconnect is. Contracts get evaluated in present day and with production, not the past and hypotheticals.
Its currently a bad contract.
You don't see the foolishness in making a decision based on one emotional game weighed over a much larger sample size? Further, you don't see the problem with completely ignoring the debacle that took place a week later?
Carry on pretending to be a good actor on this site.
Quote:
In comment 16536171 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
Alright, that answers my question. You do not get it. Carry on.
He’s only here to troll. Probably not even a Giants fan.
Quite the long con, hanging around BBI for 19 years just to troll
People have weird fetishes in this world. This is probably his.
Quote:
Alright, that answers my question. You do not get it. Carry on.
You don't see the foolishness in making a decision based on one emotional game weighed over a much larger sample size? Further, you don't see the problem with completely ignoring the debacle that took place a week later?
Carry on pretending to be a good actor on this site.
So if I be disagrees with you they are a bad actor?
Good to know
Quote:
In comment 16536100 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
In comment 16536085 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16536083 christian said:
Quote:
There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
For about 12 hours, yes. After the elation of the playoff win wore off, logical thought took back over.
After the Philadelphia game (which did happen), most of the good feeling around the team was gone for me. It was clear what they were: a pretty poor team that was the beneficiary of a good deal of luck and an excellent coaching performance.
I'm right that the Philadelphia game happened? Winning in Minnesota wasn't the Super Bowl?
From my pov Terps, you are very harsh with the Giants decisions (understandable to a point). I also think that it is somewhat probable that you believe you would be a much better GM of the team based on your comments over the years. You (probably through emotion) thought Jones should be paid after beating a team with an absolute terrible defense (possibly historically bad). It just seems a little off that you often mock the Giants and other fans for talking positively about the Minnesota playoff win, yet that very game was a deciding factor in your thinking that Jones should be paid.
There isn't a doubt in my mind that Terps would have been a better GM than the collective performances of our GMs over the past decade.
Terps has been spot on in recognizing the fundamental problems with this organization, problems that have been completely missed for years by the shills, pollyanna gaslighters and delusional optimists on this board, all of whom attempt to bully other fans into submission with their off base opinions of this severely underperforming organization. The enemy is not other Giants fans. It is the inconceivably poor management of this franchise.
There isn't a greater Giants fan on this board than Terps. To indefatigably counter the trolling fanboy bullshit on behalf of the very large contingent of "beyond distressed Giants fans" is the very definition of a leader. Keep up the great work Terps and maybe some day we will have a competitive team again!
Quote:
this was your post:
In comment 16536006 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Paying QB 12 money To QB 20-25 at best is still bad.
they quite obviously didnt pay him to be 20-25th. they paid him because they think he is better than that, and at his best he was. off the acl i have no idea what he will be but they seem to be confident enough to put their jobs on him being better than 20-25.
But currently he isnt better than top 20-25 and they are paying him as QB12, that’s bad.
What they thought he’d be and what they thought they were paying him to be is irrelevant to evaluating the contract.
It’s currently a bad contract because he’s a bottom 3rd QB currently. There’s really nothing outlandish in that post, I’m not sure where the disconnect is. Contracts get evaluated in present day and with production, not the past and hypotheticals.
Its currently a bad contract.
we dont know what he is currently because there are no games being played currently so your "currently 20-25" is either a) also hypothetical predicting 2024 or b) weighting the 6 games in 2023 (2 that he left injured) far more than the 18 in 2022.
the guys whose jobs are on the line chose not to hedge him all that much, and as it turned out this offseason had a lot more reasonable alternatives than their prior 2 offseasons combined. so what they thought of him when they signed him doesnt seem so irrelevant given how the offseason unfolded.
Quote:
Alright, that answers my question. You do not get it. Carry on.
You don't see the foolishness in making a decision based on one emotional game weighed over a much larger sample size? Further, you don't see the problem with completely ignoring the debacle that took place a week later?
Carry on pretending to be a good actor on this site.
I certainly see the problems making decisions based on that thinking. Were you seriously asking if I did not understand that or were you implying that I didn't? Are we making stuff up now?
Quote:
In comment 16536107 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16536100 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
In comment 16536085 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16536083 christian said:
Quote:
There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
For about 12 hours, yes. After the elation of the playoff win wore off, logical thought took back over.
After the Philadelphia game (which did happen), most of the good feeling around the team was gone for me. It was clear what they were: a pretty poor team that was the beneficiary of a good deal of luck and an excellent coaching performance.
I'm right that the Philadelphia game happened? Winning in Minnesota wasn't the Super Bowl?
From my pov Terps, you are very harsh with the Giants decisions (understandable to a point). I also think that it is somewhat probable that you believe you would be a much better GM of the team based on your comments over the years. You (probably through emotion) thought Jones should be paid after beating a team with an absolute terrible defense (possibly historically bad). It just seems a little off that you often mock the Giants and other fans for talking positively about the Minnesota playoff win, yet that very game was a deciding factor in your thinking that Jones should be paid.
There isn't a doubt in my mind that Terps would have been a better GM than the collective performances of our GMs over the past decade.
Terps has been spot on in recognizing the fundamental problems with this organization, problems that have been completely missed for years by the shills, pollyanna gaslighters and delusional optimists on this board, all of whom attempt to bully other fans into submission with their off base opinions of this severely underperforming organization. The enemy is not other Giants fans. It is the inconceivably poor management of this franchise.
There isn't a greater Giants fan on this board than Terps. To indefatigably counter the trolling fanboy bullshit on behalf of the very large contingent of "beyond distressed Giants fans" is the very definition of a leader. Keep up the great work Terps and maybe some day we will have a competitive team again!
Well we know what teps dupe is.
Remember terps called the Russell Wilson trade a bargain. Would have taken Malik Willis with the 5th pick. And called Matt Stanford an average QB. And don’t forget he wanted to draft Jones 6th.
If there is anyone less clueless about the QB position it’s the Mike/Go Terps.
Quote:
In comment 16536107 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16536100 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
In comment 16536085 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16536083 christian said:
Quote:
There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
For about 12 hours, yes. After the elation of the playoff win wore off, logical thought took back over.
After the Philadelphia game (which did happen), most of the good feeling around the team was gone for me. It was clear what they were: a pretty poor team that was the beneficiary of a good deal of luck and an excellent coaching performance.
I'm right that the Philadelphia game happened? Winning in Minnesota wasn't the Super Bowl?
From my pov Terps, you are very harsh with the Giants decisions (understandable to a point). I also think that it is somewhat probable that you believe you would be a much better GM of the team based on your comments over the years. You (probably through emotion) thought Jones should be paid after beating a team with an absolute terrible defense (possibly historically bad). It just seems a little off that you often mock the Giants and other fans for talking positively about the Minnesota playoff win, yet that very game was a deciding factor in your thinking that Jones should be paid.
There isn't a doubt in my mind that Terps would have been a better GM than the collective performances of our GMs over the past decade.
Terps has been spot on in recognizing the fundamental problems with this organization, problems that have been completely missed for years by the shills, pollyanna gaslighters and delusional optimists on this board, all of whom attempt to bully other fans into submission with their off base opinions of this severely underperforming organization. The enemy is not other Giants fans. It is the inconceivably poor management of this franchise.
There isn't a greater Giants fan on this board than Terps. To indefatigably counter the trolling fanboy bullshit on behalf of the very large contingent of "beyond distressed Giants fans" is the very definition of a leader. Keep up the great work Terps and maybe some day we will have a competitive team again!
I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment. I have not and do not see anything special about Terps' track record here. That is not a bad thing, I just think it is commonly overstated. He's been right on certain things and wrong on other like most of us.
Why not??
the scale isn't exactly the same but the better example is andrew thomas last year. he was paid as not just OT1 but the highest guarantee of any offensive non-QB. he got hurt and when he returned he had what for him was a down year (OT18 by PFF). He similarly has a history of leg injuries where durability is a concern going forward.
was it a bad 10g with some bad luck or is the contract a disaster? it could end up being either but that will be based on what happens in the future not what happened in a bad partial year w/ injuries. none of us can predict the future especially w/r/t health but i can certainly undertand anyone who believes that he's more the guy he was in 2022 than 2023.
we dont know what he is currently because there are no games being played currently so your "currently 20-25" is either a) also hypothetical predicting 2024 or b) weighting the 6 games in 2023 (2 that he left injured) far more than the 18 in 2022.
the guys whose jobs are on the line chose not to hedge him all that much, and as it turned out this offseason had a lot more reasonable alternatives than their prior 2 offseasons combined. so what they thought of him when they signed him doesnt seem so irrelevant given how the offseason unfolded.
We don’t? There’s 4+ years of body of work. Nobody ranks players before the season starts based on past performance? Cherry pick 2022 all you want but the whole body of work matters when evaluating what Jones is. Does his entire body of work say top 15 QB to you? Based on his entire body of work is he a top 15 or in the 20-25 range currently? Even if you just count the last two years is he a top 15 QB currently?
And again, what they thought about him when they signed him is irrelevant to evaluating the contract. Since signing the contract he was a bottom 5 QB. His entire body of work puts him in the 20-25 range. I think most people would say that’s a fair spot to rank him.
Plenty of contracts in sports have been signed based on what guys could become, but you evaluate the contact based upon what has happened since signing the contract. So far it’s been a handful of bad games.
So it’s not basic fact that Jones isn’t “20-25” at best, that’s your opinion. Just like I gave my opinion, not a fact, that he’s 20-25 at best. what basic fact did I get wrong?
Quote:
If Evan Neal had one top 15 tackle year and then got paid RT12 money while being a bottom third starting tackle in the league would that not be a bad contract or would we be referencing back to his one top 15 tackle year?
the scale isn't exactly the same but the better example is andrew thomas last year. he was paid as not just OT1 but the highest guarantee of any offensive non-QB. he got hurt and when he returned he had what for him was a down year (OT18 by PFF). He similarly has a history of leg injuries where durability is a concern going forward.
was it a bad 10g with some bad luck or is the contract a disaster? it could end up being either but that will be based on what happens in the future not what happened in a bad partial year w/ injuries. none of us can predict the future especially w/r/t health but i can certainly undertand anyone who believes that he's more the guy he was in 2022 than 2023.
Or just answer the actual question.
When on the field Thomas has proven to be consistently a top tackle outside of his rookie year.
Jones has not consistently proven to be a top 15 QB when on the field
To all the dead horse beaters, why? They chose not to draft a QB in favor of a game-changing receiver which Jones has never had. Jones recovery in Daboll's words is exactly where it should be, and all beat accounts say he looks very good. So if no setbacks he'll be QB game one. There's no new information, the off-season sturm and drang is over. Rehashing the same arguments does what exactly?
There will be ample opportunity to pick him apart soon if ge has a crap game. If he throws for 350 yards and 5 TDs you can post 44 times about his one bad pass that could have been the 6th.
So it’s not basic fact that Jones isn’t “20-25” at best, that’s your opinion. Just like I gave my opinion, not a fact, that he’s 20-25 at best. what basic fact did I get wrong?
i'd refer you back to my initial reply. i take the phrase "at best" to mean the best we've seen him play in reality. which was 2022. you took issue with "advanced stats" but if total yards isn't too fancy for you ill add that here since he was 11th best.
for some reason you like to have your cake and eat it to on this. if you correctly predicted the contract he'd get ahead of time, presumably that was because you were correctly valuing that he'd played better than "20-25th" in 2022 (and was therefore better than that "at best")?
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-most-total-yards-by-a-qb-2022 - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 16536192 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
If Evan Neal had one top 15 tackle year and then got paid RT12 money while being a bottom third starting tackle in the league would that not be a bad contract or would we be referencing back to his one top 15 tackle year?
the scale isn't exactly the same but the better example is andrew thomas last year. he was paid as not just OT1 but the highest guarantee of any offensive non-QB. he got hurt and when he returned he had what for him was a down year (OT18 by PFF). He similarly has a history of leg injuries where durability is a concern going forward.
was it a bad 10g with some bad luck or is the contract a disaster? it could end up being either but that will be based on what happens in the future not what happened in a bad partial year w/ injuries. none of us can predict the future especially w/r/t health but i can certainly undertand anyone who believes that he's more the guy he was in 2022 than 2023.
Or just answer the actual question.
When on the field Thomas has proven to be consistently a top tackle outside of his rookie year.
Jones has not consistently proven to be a top 15 QB when on the field
that's not the point i've been making in this thread so not sure why that matters? i disagreed with your statement that he's a "top 20-25 qb at best" if you are amending that to say "he has not consistently proven to be a top 15 QB" ok.
To all the dead horse beaters, why? They chose not to draft a QB in favor of a game-changing receiver which Jones has never had. Jones recovery in Daboll's words is exactly where it should be, and all beat accounts say he looks very good. So if no setbacks he'll be QB game one. There's no new information, the off-season sturm and drang is over. Rehashing the same arguments does what exactly?
There will be ample opportunity to pick him apart soon if ge has a crap game. If he throws for 350 yards and 5 TDs you can post 44 times about his one bad pass that could have been the 6th.
I agree about Eric in Li - very good poster.
As for Jones, I noticed you left out the reasonable possibility that the Giants tried to trade-up to take a Qb.
You’re condescending douchness after interpreting something wrongly and taking shots and then basically call someone dumb is just silly. It’s ok to admit you’re wrong sometimes.
Daniel Jones entire body of work puts him in the 20-25 range. Since signing there contract he’s been worse. Not sure how that’s even up for debate.
Daniel Jones didn’t play 2022 under his current contract, the only thing that you can evaluate the new contract on is how he’s played under that contract. If the Yankees sign Soto to a 10 year $600 million contract and he gets hurt every year hits like Rizzo is 2024 relevant to determining if the contract was bad? No.
There’s no “well they thought he’d be better so how can you criticize the contract”. That’s not how it works.
To all the dead horse beaters, why? They chose not to draft a QB in favor of a game-changing receiver which Jones has never had. Jones recovery in Daboll's words is exactly where it should be, and all beat accounts say he looks very good. So if no setbacks he'll be QB game one. There's no new information, the off-season sturm and drang is over. Rehashing the same arguments does what exactly?
There will be ample opportunity to pick him apart soon if ge has a crap game. If he throws for 350 yards and 5 TDs you can post 44 times about his one bad pass that could have been the 6th.
And I'm sure if he throws 5 INTs we'll get to hear 44 times how none of them were his fault
To all the dead horse beaters, why? They chose not to draft a QB in favor of a game-changing receiver which Jones has never had. Jones recovery in Daboll's words is exactly where it should be, and all beat accounts say he looks very good. So if no setbacks he'll be QB game one. There's no new information, the off-season sturm and drang is over. Rehashing the same arguments does what exactly?
There will be ample opportunity to pick him apart soon if ge has a crap game. If he throws for 350 yards and 5 TDs you can post 44 times about his one bad pass that could have been the 6th.
Appreciate that though at this point i feel as guilty as the dead horse beaters beating the other end of the same horse (though at least lombardi is the embodiment of a dead horse so it didn't ruin an otherwise good thread). he is so transparently geared towards the lowest common denominator, just the absolute worst kind of commentator.
Quote:
which was 2022. you took issue with "advanced stats" but if total yards isn't too fancy for you ill add that here since he was 11th best.
You’re condescending douchness after interpreting something wrongly and taking shots and then basically call someone dumb is just silly. It’s ok to admit you’re wrong sometimes.
Daniel Jones entire body of work puts him in the 20-25 range. Since signing there contract he’s been worse. Not sure how that’s even up for debate.
Daniel Jones didn’t play 2022 under his current contract, the only thing that you can evaluate the new contract on is how he’s played under that contract. If the Yankees sign Soto to a 10 year $600 million contract and he gets hurt every year hits like Rizzo is 2024 relevant to determining if the contract was bad? No.
There’s no “well they thought he’d be better so how can you criticize the contract”. That’s not how it works.
i ask this with no intended condescending "douchness", but if that was the definition you were using, why not just reply to my initial post that you were referencing your ranking of him over his fuller career not just 2022?
why did you spend a bunch of posts arguing that his 2022 wasn't actually good because "advanced stats" are wrong and the non-advanced stats like Tds (14th), yards (11th), ints (1st) dont count for whatever reasons?
if you were arguing some kind of "entire body of work" it's a still stupid point but you possibly could have saved us some time by pointing that out instead of arguing against my very specific point that "at his best" in 2022 he played close to where his salary ranks.
Allen took off in Buffalo when Diggs was added. 2020 (127/1535/12.1/8) and then 2021 (103/1225/11.9/10). High volume go to WR. Giants add Waller. His last healthy season 107/1196/11.2/9. High volume go to TE/WR. Didn't pan out.
OL regressed. Injuries (especially SB/AT). Poor prep. Other issues but those seemed to be the big three imv.
Quote:
Your posts are excellent. I don't always agree but they're always well reasoned and supported with data, and educational. Thanks for that.
To all the dead horse beaters, why? They chose not to draft a QB in favor of a game-changing receiver which Jones has never had. Jones recovery in Daboll's words is exactly where it should be, and all beat accounts say he looks very good. So if no setbacks he'll be QB game one. There's no new information, the off-season sturm and drang is over. Rehashing the same arguments does what exactly?
There will be ample opportunity to pick him apart soon if ge has a crap game. If he throws for 350 yards and 5 TDs you can post 44 times about his one bad pass that could have been the 6th.
And I'm sure if he throws 5 INTs we'll get to hear 44 times how none of them were his fault
Not from me.
Unless they, you know, actually weren't his fault.
You replying to my post implied that you think he’s currently a top 12 QB. Then implied I was wrong about basic facts because you thought you could score points. I even asked for clarity on your opinion that he’s currently a top 12 QB, and you dodged the question and kept bringing up 2022.
You replying to my post implied that you think he’s currently a top 12 QB. Then implied I was wrong about basic facts because you thought you could score points. I even asked for clarity on your opinion that he’s currently a top 12 QB, and you dodged the question and kept bringing up 2022.
yes i kept bringing up 2022 because my point was clear from the start, in 2022, his best year and his only season with this regime, he played at the level his contract pays him. do you agree with that? simple yes is fine.
you continue wanting to have your cake and eat it to, "i wasnt talking about just 2022, but his 2022 wasnt that good either and here are all the reasons why".
Now, if Barkley hadn't been a jerk, I have NO doubt Schoen would have franchised Jones.
If you STILL think that was over-paying, OK, but who was going to be the QB then, with Jones coming off a road playoff victory. Its easy to crap on him (and Schoen for the contract), but no one ever makes a good case for replacing him.
Considering Schoen was boxed into a corner (having to keep both SB and DJ), he did a pretty good job giving himself an out after this season.
yes i kept bringing up 2022 because my point was clear from the start, in 2022, his best year and his only season with this regime, he played at the level his contract pays him. do you agree with that? simple yes is fine.
you continue wanting to have your cake and eat it to, "i wasnt talking about just 2022, but his 2022 wasnt that good either and here are all the reasons why".
Well if we’re going to criticize people for “getting basic facts wrong” he did play games last year with this regime and the results were not good. And no, his 2022 wasn’t worthy of a $40 million contract because it was one year of body of work, where the team still struggled to score passing touchdowns. Blame that on David Sills all you want, but you don’t pay a guy $40 million and say “well if those others guy are better he’s might be worth it”.
Not sure how I’m trying to “have my cake and eat it too”. You brought up 2022 and I respodned to it. That’s how message boards work.
To summarize: you miss understand a post and then take shots, including at my career, and then continue to dig in. You’re a silly person.
Now, if Barkley hadn't been a jerk, I have NO doubt Schoen would have franchised Jones.
If you STILL think that was over-paying, OK, but who was going to be the QB then, with Jones coming off a road playoff victory. Its easy to crap on him (and Schoen for the contract), but no one ever makes a good case for replacing him.
Considering Schoen was boxed into a corner (having to keep both SB and DJ), he did a pretty good job giving himself an out after this season.
This is all pretty much correct. They paid him because they thought 2022 was repeatable and so far it hasn’t been. That makes the contract as we currently stand bad. Maybe that does a 180 in 2024, but until proven otherwise the contract is bad. Anyone in the league will tell you the same.
2022 isn’t part of the evaluation of a contract that started in 2023.
Quote:
yes i kept bringing up 2022 because my point was clear from the start, in 2022, his best year and his only season with this regime, he played at the level his contract pays him. do you agree with that? simple yes is fine.
you continue wanting to have your cake and eat it to, "i wasnt talking about just 2022, but his 2022 wasnt that good either and here are all the reasons why".
Well if we’re going to criticize people for “getting basic facts wrong” he did play games last year with this regime and the results were not good. And no, his 2022 wasn’t worthy of a $40 million contract because it was one year of body of work, where the team still struggled to score passing touchdowns. Blame that on David Sills all you want, but you don’t pay a guy $40 million and say “well if those others guy are better he’s might be worth it”.
Not sure how I’m trying to “have my cake and eat it too”. You brought up 2022 and I respodned to it. That’s how message boards work.
To summarize: you miss understand a post and then take shots, including at my career, and then continue to dig in. You’re a silly person.
i dont take shots at your career, i take shots at you using it as some crest of expertise when you get simple facts wrong. as you again did in this post.
there was no david sills projection needed, by his actual stats he got paid right in line with where his contract ranks. QBR, EPA, yards, TDs, interceptions, comp%, w/l record, go down the line. that's why even those that dont like him acknowledge that off 2022 he should have at least gotten tagged. is the tag amount based on the top 5 salaries at a position, or the top 20-25?
once a player has played well enough to get themselves into a negotiation where they are being "threatened" with the tag, there is no world where their contract isnt going to end up in the top 10-15 at their position.
these are basic concepts someone who throws around their occupation negotiating on behalf of athletes should probably realize. or you can continue digesting the knowing clickbait from hacks like lomardi.
He’s a 20-25 ranked QB in the league, that’s wrong?
2022 isn’t relevant to evaluating his contract, that’s wrong?
His production scoring touchdowns didn’t match his advanced stats, that’s wrong?
I simply said his EPA and QBR don’t tell the whole story because no objective person would say he had a better year than Burrow or Herbert and you replied with this:
I then said if they had opened up the offense more in 2022 his advanced stats would have been worse and you responded with another condescending shot at my career. You seem to have some sort of issue with me, when I have no issue with you and I’m not sure what it is. I don’t recall acting like I’m better than anyone here because of my career, you can read the Knicks threads to see that. You realize you also act like you have a crest of expertise right? Are you never wrong on this site?
This is leaving out important context:
once a player has played well enough to get themselves into a negotiation where they are being "threatened" with the tag, there is no world where their contract isnt going to end up in the top 10-15 at their position.
What the tag is based on has no relevance as to if the contract is currently bad, which is the whole point. The Giants got boxed into the situation by declining the fifth year option and not bringing in another QB to compete after that. That was partly because the draft they had two first round picks didn’t have a QB worth taking in the first round. Secondly, if they could have they would have tagged him and drafted a rookie QB. That route wasn’t possible because they had to tag Saqoun and weren’t picking high enough to get a QB. Acting like the Giants were 100% happy with giving him a long term contract is revisionist history.
They may have erroneously concluded they were boxed in. But it simply isn't true.
Were the Bucs BOXED IN when they decided to let Baker become a free agent? No.
And what was the worst that would happen to the Giants? We would get a bad QB who would post bottom of the league stats, while going 2-6 before getting injured twice? That's what is funny about all this hand-wringing that we HAD to sign Jones or we would experience some football hell. We're already experiencing the effects of football hell, with a decade of crap football and backup-level play out of our starting QBs since at least 2018.
The Giants had tons of leverage, and didn't realize it. Anywhere else Jones would have gone, would have been many times more pressure-packed, and they wouldn't wait around for him to become great. They would just release his ass -- unlike the Giants.
Quote:
<snip>
........ that's why even those that dont like him acknowledge that off 2022 he should have at least gotten tagged. is the tag amount based on the top 5 salaries at a position, or the top 20-25?
once a player has played well enough to get themselves into a negotiation where they are being "threatened" with the tag, there is no world where their contract isnt going to end up in the top 10-15 at their position.
........
This ~~~~~~ may be the single most insightful post in BBI history.
In comment 16536394 ajr2456 said:
What the tag is based on has no relevance as to if the contract is currently bad, which is the whole point. The Giants got boxed into the situation by declining the fifth year option and not bringing in another QB to compete after that. That was partly because the draft they had two first round picks didn’t have a QB worth taking in the first round. Secondly, if they could have they would have tagged him and drafted a rookie QB. That route wasn’t possible because they had to tag Saqoun and weren’t picking high enough to get a QB. Acting like the Giants were 100% happy with giving him a long term contract is revisionist history.
on that thread we had a few months ago you tried to claim that you "nailed" predicting the jones contract, how did you do that if there was no statistical basis for it?
The Giants had tons of leverage, and didn't realize it. Anywhere else Jones would have gone, would have been many times more pressure-packed, and they wouldn't wait around for him to become great. They would just release his ass -- unlike the Giants.
the Bucs signed Baker before he got to FA.
same as the Seahawks signed Geno before he got to FA.
noticing the trend darwin?
In comment 16536394 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
What the tag is based on has no relevance as to if the contract is currently bad, which is the whole point. The Giants got boxed into the situation by declining the fifth year option and not bringing in another QB to compete after that. That was partly because the draft they had two first round picks didn’t have a QB worth taking in the first round. Secondly, if they could have they would have tagged him and drafted a rookie QB. That route wasn’t possible because they had to tag Saqoun and weren’t picking high enough to get a QB. Acting like the Giants were 100% happy with giving him a long term contract is revisionist history.
Quote:
“I wanted to know we had our quarterback here and it wasn’t a franchise tag type deal,” Schoen said. “So to me that was a worst-case scenario, putting that franchise tag on him. But I also knew I had that as a tool. So the deal had to make sense for the franchise both short term and long term. And that was what was important to me.”
on that thread we had a few months ago you tried to claim that you "nailed" predicting the jones contract, how did you do that if there was no statistical basis for it?
You actually might be insane. Using Schoen media quotes to prove something is wild. The Giants preferred to tag Jones. All their actions pointed toward that. If Saqoun took the multi year deal Jones would have gotten tagged. So where is the “basic fact” that’s wrong in the bolded part?
Where did I say stats don’t matter when determining a contract?
“Nailed” based on what I heard, not some independent data evaluation. It seems like comprehension is an issue here.
You think Jones had leverage?
and with that jones' contract still = baker's same 13% of cap. jones just got the 2nd year guaranteed and baker didnt, jones got an inflated (nongtd) 4th year, baker didnt.
by golly it's almost like slotting all these contracts in isn't that hard, unless you want to be a knowingly obtuse pie eater like mike lombardi whose job depends on getting the lowest common denominator fired up with click bait.
Baker's career has been consistently better than Jones' career. How does Baker have less lwverage than Jones? He didn't. It's in your head. Jones had the same leverage as Baker.
But family is family, and Daniel is family.
Quote:
Baker had been on 4 teams in slightly over a year and a half and the Bucs just watched their third consecutive quarterback put up numbers with one of the sport’s elite WR duos. Baker had no leverage at all.
and with that jones' contract still = baker's same 13% of cap. jones just got the 2nd year guaranteed and baker didnt, jones got an inflated (nongtd) 4th year, baker didnt.
by golly it's almost like slotting all these contracts in isn't that hard, unless you want to be a knowingly obtuse pie eater like mike lombardi whose job depends on getting the lowest common denominator fired up with click bait.
Lombardi certainly got one of our posters here. He struggles with simple concepts though.
Regarding the signing, to say that without question it was a dumb move, at this juncture, is pretty irrational.
They signed him to what amounts to a 2 year contract after he had a good season which was his very first with the new regime. Played some of the best ball of his career. Signing him for 2 guaranteed years was actually a pretty good job by Schoen given the circumstances.
Going to be interesting to revisit all of these threads again this season. If Jones is playing well and the Giants have a winning record, you can bet the mortgage of who will actually still be around for it.
You actually might be insane. Using Schoen media quotes to prove something is wild. The Giants preferred to tag Jones. All their actions pointed toward that. If Saqoun took the multi year deal Jones would have gotten tagged. So where is the “basic fact” that’s wrong in the bolded part?
wrong again but i guess no reason to stop now - all of the reporting even through last july (mike g, dunleavy) was that the giants never up'd their offer from what they had offered Barkley during the bye week of 2022 and instead focused entirely on extending jones, and that barkley would have hit FA if the giants had to use the tag on jones.
https://www.nfl.com/news/giants-qb-daniel-jones-agree-to-four-year-160-million-contract
this was from january - he said that their goal was to extend jones. then they extended him. only in your world is there any "action" that showed their preference was to tag him.
https://nypost.com/2023/01/23/giants-gm-joe-schoen-reveals-teams-daniel-jones-stance/
When asked about Barkley, Schoen initially said, “This was a special team, to me, this was my first year, we’d like to have all the guys back, I really would.”
Schoen then pivoted to Barkley.
“Saquon’s a good player and he’s a great teammate,” Schoen said. “I loved getting to know him this season. He’s a guy we’d like to have back. Again, we haven’t had our end-of-season meetings yet.”
There is little doubt the Giants are prioritizing Jones. Barkley’s deal will have to make financial sense.
from march 2:
https://nypost.com/2023/03/02/giants-joe-schoen-feeling-time-crunch-with-daniel-jones/
There is still time, but not a whole lot.
One way or another, Jones will be the Giants’ starting quarterback in 2023.
Schoen this week reiterated that he will put the tag on Jones (which would pay him $32.4 million for this season) if a long-term deal cannot be worked out.
they wanted to extend jones and they extended him at the price it took at the time to get that done. the reporting on barkley never changed and also aligned with what happened - through this year when barkley left they never upped their offers and didnt match philly's. they were fine with him at the number they had already offered him but not any more.
The Giants have drafted 3 first round quarterbacks in 45 years. We're well aware that you can't draft one every year.
As a matter of fact, you apparently can't draft a quarterback at all in five years even if your starter is dogshit.
Hard to continue a discussion or actually have any type of discussion with substance when the time that Jones actually had some semblance of team success which had a lot to do with his play, you guys were nowhere to be found.
Again - ask Kurt Warner how he felt about Jones' 2023 season. I think we should probably listen to his opinion over yours.
Feels like you really hated that season.
The Jones deal was wrongheaded, no matter how you look at it.
Feels like you really hated that season.
I don't think anybody is upset by the playoff run. They don't like the process that led to giving a bad QB a mega deal.
Quote:
You actually might be insane. Using Schoen media quotes to prove something is wild. The Giants preferred to tag Jones. All their actions pointed toward that. If Saqoun took the multi year deal Jones would have gotten tagged. So where is the “basic fact” that’s wrong in the bolded part?
wrong again but i guess no reason to stop now - all of the reporting even through last july (mike g, dunleavy) was that the giants never up'd their offer from what they had offered Barkley during the bye week of 2022 and instead focused entirely on extending jones, and that barkley would have hit FA if the giants had to use the tag on jones.
Them not upping their offer and focusing on extending doesn’t mean they didn’t prefer to sign Barkley and tag Jones. They had a price for Barkley and didn’t go above so they moved on to extending Jones.
Hard to continue a discussion or actually have any type of discussion with substance when the time that Jones actually had some semblance of team success which had a lot to do with his play, you guys were nowhere to be found.
Are you including yourself?
Taken alone it is a small sample size - an atrocious performance though. But Jones has had 62 NFL starts, incl playoffs. And that is not a small sample size. And it tells a consistent story. A QB who is mistake prone when he airs it out so he has become a dink and dunker who avoids attacking defenses downfield and needs to have success running to have any hope of being effective.
It's clear Schoen & Daboll liked Jones enough to give him the contact. Breer referenced the Packers game as a buy in moment:
The Giants that day didn’t just win with Jones. They won because of him, and even his middling final numbers, Schoen and Daboll saw a guy they could build around. The question would be, then, at what cost would they be willing to go forward with that idea.
Teams don't have success in a first year of a regime including a road playoff win and then change course. Teams keep building generally.
I'm disappointed with the team right now and I wanted a QB in the draft. However, I get the fatigue by some who completely discount a playoff win against the Vikings while also propping up the Vikings with KOC as some brilliant offensive mastermind with an organization trending up. People want it both ways re: the Vikings.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 16536444 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
You actually might be insane. Using Schoen media quotes to prove something is wild. The Giants preferred to tag Jones. All their actions pointed toward that. If Saqoun took the multi year deal Jones would have gotten tagged. So where is the “basic fact” that’s wrong in the bolded part?
wrong again but i guess no reason to stop now - all of the reporting even through last july (mike g, dunleavy) was that the giants never up'd their offer from what they had offered Barkley during the bye week of 2022 and instead focused entirely on extending jones, and that barkley would have hit FA if the giants had to use the tag on jones.
Them not upping their offer and focusing on extending doesn’t mean they didn’t prefer to sign Barkley and tag Jones. They had a price for Barkley and didn’t go above so they moved on to extending Jones.
they wanted to keep barkley so bad they didnt offer him anything more than what they already had and instead went against their preference to tag jones, and extended him?
you know what i think im finally past this. if you want to buy what lombardi is selling enjoy the shuffle. ill stick to what's said by the guys who are actually holding the gm jobs and what's credibly reported by the guys who do real work and break real news.
It's clear Schoen & Daboll liked Jones enough to give him the contact. Breer referenced the Packers game as a buy in moment:
Quote:
That led to a turning point in how the new Giants bosses viewed Jones in Week 5. The team was in London, playing the Packers, and down 20–13 with 3:15 left in the third quarter, taking possession at its own 9. Saquon Barkley hurt his shoulder on the first play of the possession and came out of the game, putting the pressure squarely on Jones. The quarterback responded with seven straight completions for 55 yards and three runs for another 22 yards as part of a 15-play, 91-yard game-tying drive.
The Giants that day didn’t just win with Jones. They won because of him, and even his middling final numbers, Schoen and Daboll saw a guy they could build around. The question would be, then, at what cost would they be willing to go forward with that idea.
Teams don't have success in a first year of a regime including a road playoff win and then change course. Teams keep building generally.
I'm disappointed with the team right now and I wanted a QB in the draft. However, I get the fatigue by some who completely discount a playoff win against the Vikings while also propping up the Vikings with KOC as some brilliant offensive mastermind with an organization trending up. People want it both ways re: the Vikings. Link - ( New Window )
Give me a break. He carved up a team that didn't play defense. A lot of bad QBs would have had a big day against that defense, that day. Many have had similar performances against bad defenses in the playoffs. It didn't make them bad QBs. You don't decide to sign a mega contract with a QB based on one game. It's just dumb process.
Plenty of teams let players they love walk because they don’t feel the price is worth it. You don’t think the Giants would have taken back Linval Joseph if the price was reasonable?
Plenty of teams let players they love walk because they don’t feel the price is worth it. You don’t think the Giants would have taken back Linval Joseph if the price was reasonable?
QB is different though. It's a QB driven league and the majority of teams don't have them. Ultimately Schoen tried to thread a needle to maintain what was built in 2022 without fully committing with guaranteed money beyond 2024.
Blood in the water - ( New Window )
It's clear Schoen & Daboll liked Jones enough to give him the contact. Breer referenced the Packers game as a buy in moment:
Quote:
That led to a turning point in how the new Giants bosses viewed Jones in Week 5. The team was in London, playing the Packers, and down 20–13 with 3:15 left in the third quarter, taking possession at its own 9. Saquon Barkley hurt his shoulder on the first play of the possession and came out of the game, putting the pressure squarely on Jones. The quarterback responded with seven straight completions for 55 yards and three runs for another 22 yards as part of a 15-play, 91-yard game-tying drive.
The Giants that day didn’t just win with Jones. They won because of him, and even his middling final numbers, Schoen and Daboll saw a guy they could build around. The question would be, then, at what cost would they be willing to go forward with that idea.
Teams don't have success in a first year of a regime including a road playoff win and then change course. Teams keep building generally.
I'm disappointed with the team right now and I wanted a QB in the draft. However, I get the fatigue by some who completely discount a playoff win against the Vikings while also propping up the Vikings with KOC as some brilliant offensive mastermind with an organization trending up. People want it both ways re: the Vikings. Link - ( New Window )
The 2017 Vikings let Case Keenum walk after getting to the NFC title game. Incidentally the Jaguars paid Blake Bortles after getting to the AFC title game that same year.
One team was smart, one was dumb. The Giants didn't learn from that. I doubt they even noticed.
You're right though; they weren't going anywhere. Especially Jones - that truth was borne out again a couple months ago.
I do have to give Jones credit. Milking 6 years out of these idiots...he's a shitty quarterback but he's no dummy. Good for him.
Plenty of teams let players they love walk because they don’t feel the price is worth it. You don’t think the Giants would have taken back Linval Joseph if the price was reasonable?
I don’t need to stretch too hard to believe the gm was telling the truth about liking a guy he signs to the biggest contract in franchise history.
And linval signed a reasonable contract that ended up being underpaid, we stupidly paid Beason instead of him at a similar amount. Bad teams are usually the result of bad choices.
The Jones deal was wrongheaded, no matter how you look at it.
Outside of the obvious ones all decisions are case by case. This same logic could have applied to not extending Eli, he’s not a .500 qb for his career entirely by accident, he was never on the consistent mvp level someone like mahomes or his brother was Or rodgers or brees. General consensus on Eli was that he was overrated and the worst qb to win a sb until the 2nd one.
I’m not saying you sign anyone at whatever the cost, I think it’s clear that this regime saw a player they liked enough they were willing to hitch their wagon even at a big price tag. That they kept their wagon hitched after the acl is not a small clue re how they feel about him even after 23. I don’t think I’d have had the confidence to do that without a better backup plan than lock.
Quote:
I’m sure there Giants like Saqoun a lot, not budging from their price doesn’t mean they didn’t want him back a lot.
Plenty of teams let players they love walk because they don’t feel the price is worth it. You don’t think the Giants would have taken back Linval Joseph if the price was reasonable?
QB is different though. It's a QB driven league and the majority of teams don't have them. Ultimately Schoen tried to thread a needle to maintain what was built in 2022 without fully committing with guaranteed money beyond 2024.
Agreed, that was in response to Eric saying they clearly didn’t want Saqoun back bad enough if they didn’t up their offer
Quote:
I’m sure there Giants like Saqoun a lot, not budging from their price doesn’t mean they didn’t want him back a lot.
Plenty of teams let players they love walk because they don’t feel the price is worth it. You don’t think the Giants would have taken back Linval Joseph if the price was reasonable?
I don’t need to stretch too hard to believe the gm was telling the truth about liking a guy he signs to the biggest contract in franchise history.
And linval signed a reasonable contract that ended up being underpaid, we stupidly paid Beason instead of him at a similar amount. Bad teams are usually the result of bad choices.
Like signing a QB who can’t throw touchdowns to a contract that takes up 17% of next years cap
Not really a great example. The 2017 Vikings were supposed to be qb’d by bridgewater or Bradford. Keenum was a career backup who had a heater. They replaced him with cousins so it’s not like they saved money, they spent more on a different 30 year old qb with more experience.
Again, I don't dispute what Lombardi tweeted. I'm just so sick & tired of the Jones stuff, which-I admit-I'm an active & full participant in. I just want to move on SO badly. It honestly feels like we're just running in place with him @ QB. And the thing that pisses me off most is this 'no scholarships' BS Joe & Dabs preach. Based on '23, there should be an open competition at QB this summer. Jones shouldn't just be handed the job. But it is what it is. The one saving grace is that I think he'll have a short leash if he struggles early, which is a very real & probably most likely scenario.
Quote:
In comment 16536512 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
I’m sure there Giants like Saqoun a lot, not budging from their price doesn’t mean they didn’t want him back a lot.
Plenty of teams let players they love walk because they don’t feel the price is worth it. You don’t think the Giants would have taken back Linval Joseph if the price was reasonable?
I don’t need to stretch too hard to believe the gm was telling the truth about liking a guy he signs to the biggest contract in franchise history.
And linval signed a reasonable contract that ended up being underpaid, we stupidly paid Beason instead of him at a similar amount. Bad teams are usually the result of bad choices.
Like signing a QB who can’t throw touchdowns to a contract that takes up 17% of next years cap
Where did I ever say extending jones may not end up a bad choice? Just bc they paid a reasonable price doesn’t mean it will work out.
The simpleton ? Lombardi is click baiting was “what did he ever do to get paid what he’s paid” and the answer is 2022. The 17% is more stupid hyperbole bc last year he was like 6%.
Nothing new bc the next guy will be treated the same way.
Imagine the giants sign dak next year,
or had been the ny team that traded for rodgers and then tore his Achilles week 1,
Or traded for Russ or Watson.
Qb debates are ubiquitous. maybe fans love rookies, until they have a bad year like bryce. So basically draft a rookie who makes the pro bowl or you’re screwed. Unless that rookie regresses like mayfield and Mac jones.
Every team that doesn’t have the top handful of guys is in some version of this.
Quote:
In comment 16536521 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16536512 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
I’m sure there Giants like Saqoun a lot, not budging from their price doesn’t mean they didn’t want him back a lot.
Plenty of teams let players they love walk because they don’t feel the price is worth it. You don’t think the Giants would have taken back Linval Joseph if the price was reasonable?
I don’t need to stretch too hard to believe the gm was telling the truth about liking a guy he signs to the biggest contract in franchise history.
And linval signed a reasonable contract that ended up being underpaid, we stupidly paid Beason instead of him at a similar amount. Bad teams are usually the result of bad choices.
Like signing a QB who can’t throw touchdowns to a contract that takes up 17% of next years cap
Where did I ever say extending jones may not end up a bad choice? Just bc they paid a reasonable price doesn’t mean it will work out.
The simpleton ? Lombardi is click baiting was “what did he ever do to get paid what he’s paid” and the answer is 2022. The 17% is more stupid hyperbole bc last year he was like 6%.
So what you’re saying is Lombardi, or anyone else for that matter that doesn’t view ‘22 as anything more than a mediocre performance in a dumbed down version of Daboll offense with a easy schedule as some kind of season that should lead to a $40M+/year contract after the much larger sample size would fore tell that this QB may just not be very good is/are just “simpletons” looking for click bait? Wtf? And don’t give us this shit that you aren’t saying it wasn’t a bad contract. If you honestly felt that way it wouldn’t be such a shock to you that Lombardi and many, many, many others feel it was a bad contract based an an incredibly small and yet overstated sample size of that “historic” ‘22 season
The absurdity of this post made me snort laugh
Quote:
In comment 16536532 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 16536521 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16536512 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
I’m sure there Giants like Saqoun a lot, not budging from their price doesn’t mean they didn’t want him back a lot.
Plenty of teams let players they love walk because they don’t feel the price is worth it. You don’t think the Giants would have taken back Linval Joseph if the price was reasonable?
I don’t need to stretch too hard to believe the gm was telling the truth about liking a guy he signs to the biggest contract in franchise history.
And linval signed a reasonable contract that ended up being underpaid, we stupidly paid Beason instead of him at a similar amount. Bad teams are usually the result of bad choices.
Like signing a QB who can’t throw touchdowns to a contract that takes up 17% of next years cap
Where did I ever say extending jones may not end up a bad choice? Just bc they paid a reasonable price doesn’t mean it will work out.
The simpleton ? Lombardi is click baiting was “what did he ever do to get paid what he’s paid” and the answer is 2022. The 17% is more stupid hyperbole bc last year he was like 6%.
So what you’re saying is Lombardi, or anyone else for that matter that doesn’t view ‘22 as anything more than a mediocre performance in a dumbed down version of Daboll offense with a easy schedule as some kind of season that should lead to a $40M+/year contract after the much larger sample size would fore tell that this QB may just not be very good is/are just “simpletons” looking for click bait? Wtf? And don’t give us this shit that you aren’t saying it wasn’t a bad contract. If you honestly felt that way it wouldn’t be such a shock to you that Lombardi and many, many, many others feel it was a bad contract based an an incredibly small and yet overstated sample size of that “historic” ‘22 season
Not quite - I’m saying anyone who wants to claim to be an nfl expert like mr “eye of the gm” should understand why jones got paid what he did because it is basic nfl economics. They don’t need to agree with it.
I’d also point out that if 18 games of 2022 was “incredibly small and yet overstated sample size” isn’t the same even more true for those looking to use the far smaller sample of 2023 as a means to invalidate 2022?
Quote:
Is that only playing 4 full games in 2023 is not a big enough sample size to definitively say he had or would have had an awful year anyway. Compare it to Aaron Judge's major slump for the Yankees this season-he was awful. And guess what, he snapped out of it. How can it be said for certain that Jones would not have bounced back with the improved oline play that Tyrod and DeVito had?
The absurdity of this post made me snort laugh
I think both Jack Stroud & eightshamrocks are relatives or friends of Jones. & I'm half kidding when I say that. Stroud especially, who has weird fetish about always saying Jones can lead us to 10 wins if healthy/all breaks right. It's always 10 wins. Not 11, not 12. 10 everytime.
Fair, but there’s a reason he hasn’t lowered. Because Jones hasn’t played well since signing it, albeit a small sample size. As it stands it’s a bad contract that you just need to swallow and get it over with.
Yeah I'm not going to give Schoen credit there. He fucked up huge, full stop. And watch Jokes be the 2025 starter. That's going to be hilarious, in a way.
and what's more is he was just 6% last year, and his 18% this year didnt stop them from signing burns to a very big deal or spending on the OL. they have room right now and havent had to restructure anyone.
if he gets cut next year he will have cost 13% against the cap over the 2 years of the contract plus whatever the dead $.
if hurts/jones was the comparison he was making anyone with a microcosm of understanding of the cap knows the hurts deal and the jones deal are in 2 different galaxies of both cost and structure.
Quote:
That's true but not fair without context. He's comparing Hurts percentage of the cap vs Jones. Well, the reason Jones is 18% this year is because Schoen isn't touching his contract and pushing it out. Need to mention that. Schoen could lower it if he wanted to.
Yeah I'm not going to give Schoen credit there. He fucked up huge, full stop. And watch Jokes be the 2025 starter. That's going to be hilarious, in a way.
honest question for you,
jax just gave lawrence 275m,
atl gave cousins 180m off achilles,
hurts got 255m,
goff got 212m,
baker got 100m,
i think it's pretty clear none of them are on the elite mahomes/burrow level, so do you think all of those gms made mistakes?
Yea but he’ll only have the 16th highest cap hit, and the year after it would be 20!
Quote:
In comment 16536587 Sean said:
Quote:
That's true but not fair without context. He's comparing Hurts percentage of the cap vs Jones. Well, the reason Jones is 18% this year is because Schoen isn't touching his contract and pushing it out. Need to mention that. Schoen could lower it if he wanted to.
Yeah I'm not going to give Schoen credit there. He fucked up huge, full stop. And watch Jokes be the 2025 starter. That's going to be hilarious, in a way.
honest question for you,
jax just gave lawrence 275m,
atl gave cousins 180m off achilles,
hurts got 255m,
goff got 212m,
baker got 100m,
i think it's pretty clear none of them are on the elite mahomes/burrow level, so do you think all of those gms made mistakes?
I think Hurts is really good; I'd pay that guy. The others, no.
I always think the best ways to look it deals is cash paid divided by salary caps in the years they played. Jones would be 82M divided by 480M, or 17%.
As far as slots, this is the way I look at it.
Each of those teams negotiated "option" years in those deals. The Giants just paid more.
Mayfield had the baggage of getting traded and then getting cut. Jones had the baggage of getting banged up, the turnovers, and sucking balls. I don't think Mayfield's baggage was > than Jones's. But if it was, it wasn't 2X.
Quote:
That's true but not fair without context. He's comparing Hurts percentage of the cap vs Jones. Well, the reason Jones is 18% this year is because Schoen isn't touching his contract and pushing it out. Need to mention that. Schoen could lower it if he wanted to.
Fair, but there’s a reason he hasn’t lowered. Because Jones hasn’t played well since signing it, albeit a small sample size. As it stands it’s a bad contract that you just need to swallow and get it over with.
Exactly. That's what I expect Schoen to do. Rickey has made that clear as well.
I always think the best ways to look it deals is cash paid divided by salary caps in the years they played. Jones would be 82M divided by 480M, or 17%.
As far as slots, this is the way I look at it.
Each of those teams negotiated "option" years in those deals. The Giants just paid more.
Mayfield had the baggage of getting traded and then getting cut. Jones had the baggage of getting banged up, the turnovers, and sucking balls. I don't think Mayfield's baggage was > than Jones's. But if it was, it wasn't 2X.
mixing and matching some things to make your point. mayfield didnt get 2x jones, he got his 2nd year partially guaranteed, jones got it fully guaranteed. thats the big difference.
if both played out 3 years of their contracts before hitting any incentives mayfield gets 100m, jones gets 112.5m.
if both play out 2 years of their contracts, jones gets 82m, baker gets 60m.
tampa got the earlier ripcord that they can pull next year if they want after 1 year, likely because of the extra baggage baker carried with him of having had things go south in both CLE and CAR.
since the details came out the structure of deal the giants gave jones has been pretty clear, they gave him stronger guarantees in return for 2 extra non-guaranteed years they wanted to control. they wanted the 4th year tampa didnt get (and may not have wanted).
It is possible that the Giants could have a good team that can compete in big games. There was a time where we talked about winning the division, getting home playoff games, how we would match up with the best teams in the league.
Quote:
In comment 16536594 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16536587 Sean said:
Quote:
That's true but not fair without context. He's comparing Hurts percentage of the cap vs Jones. Well, the reason Jones is 18% this year is because Schoen isn't touching his contract and pushing it out. Need to mention that. Schoen could lower it if he wanted to.
Yeah I'm not going to give Schoen credit there. He fucked up huge, full stop. And watch Jokes be the 2025 starter. That's going to be hilarious, in a way.
honest question for you,
jax just gave lawrence 275m,
atl gave cousins 180m off achilles,
hurts got 255m,
goff got 212m,
baker got 100m,
i think it's pretty clear none of them are on the elite mahomes/burrow level, so do you think all of those gms made mistakes?
I think Hurts is really good; I'd pay that guy. The others, no.
its funny but out of that group i think i hate the contract hurts got the most. we havent seen details of lawrences yet but assuming it's more traditional in structure id probably choose him over hurts at the higher #.
the hurts contract is impossible to get out of if he doesnt work out in the next half decade. which is imminently possible for any running qb who has a meaningful injury.
People call it an "easy out", which it's not, but we are 6 months away from this being discussed as an "easy in".
Midway through another typical medicore Jones season, I guarantee stuff like this will start coming from the Giants media.
"Releasing Jones would result in a $22 M dead cap hit, while retaining Jones would only cost the team an additional $18 M. Although Jones has not performed at the level of a $40 M QB, there are many inside the building who believe he is easily worth the extra $18 M. Especially given the emergence of Malik Nabers in the last 2 games and the uncertainty of the QBs in the 2025 draft, retaining Jones for 2025 may be the prudent decision for Big Blue.
Quote:
If Jones is cut after next year, he'll still have a dead cap hit in 2025 of 22M.
People call it an "easy out", which it's not, but we are 6 months away from this being discussed as an "easy in".
Midway through another typical medicore Jones season, I guarantee stuff like this will start coming from the Giants media.
"Releasing Jones would result in a $22 M dead cap hit, while retaining Jones would only cost the team an additional $18 M. Although Jones has not performed at the level of a $40 M QB, there are many inside the building who believe he is easily worth the extra $18 M. Especially given the emergence of Malik Nabers in the last 2 games and the uncertainty of the QBs in the 2025 draft, retaining Jones for 2025 may be the prudent decision for Big Blue.
Pat Leonard is already circling back to the they don’t have enough weapons takes, saying they didn’t add Nabers to Waller and Saqoun.
Quote:
If Jones is cut after next year, he'll still have a dead cap hit in 2025 of 22M.
People call it an "easy out", which it's not, but we are 6 months away from this being discussed as an "easy in".
Midway through another typical medicore Jones season, I guarantee stuff like this will start coming from the Giants media.
"Releasing Jones would result in a $22 M dead cap hit, while retaining Jones would only cost the team an additional $18 M. Although Jones has not performed at the level of a $40 M QB, there are many inside the building who believe he is easily worth the extra $18 M. Especially given the emergence of Malik Nabers in the last 2 games and the uncertainty of the QBs in the 2025 draft, retaining Jones for 2025 may be the prudent decision for Big Blue.
The Giants will need to win. The majority of fans I'd say lean towards moving on. They can sell that message at 7-4, but not at 4-7.
I always think the best ways to look it deals is cash paid divided by salary caps in the years they played. Jones would be 82M divided by 480M, or 17%.
As far as slots, this is the way I look at it.
Each of those teams negotiated "option" years in those deals. The Giants just paid more.
Mayfield had the baggage of getting traded and then getting cut. Jones had the baggage of getting banged up, the turnovers, and sucking balls. I don't think Mayfield's baggage was > than Jones's. But if it was, it wasn't 2X.
mixing and matching some things to make your point. mayfield didnt get 2x jones, he got his 2nd year partially guaranteed, jones got it fully guaranteed. thats the big difference.
I am not mixing anything. My point is Mayfield received 40M in full guarantees and Jones received 82M.
Mayfield had a better career record, was more durable, and won playoff games in 2 separate seasons.
The reason (you've alluded to it, and I agree) Mayfield didn't land a huge deal is because he bounced around, and either real or perceived there's a stigma, and he had more to prove.
That thing he had to prove landed him 1/2 as much guaranteed money. My view is Jones had just as much to prove.
Said in another way, I wish the Giants would had given Jones the deal Mayfield received.
Then I saw who posted it and just laughed harder.
2. Tampa Bay benefitted from seeing how the Jones deal played out in year one.
2. Tampa Bay benefitted from seeing how the Jones deal played out in year one.
I think a third, and it's unfortunately the point I've made over and over: the Giants really like Daniel Jones.
Quote:
If Jones is cut after next year, he'll still have a dead cap hit in 2025 of 22M.
I always think the best ways to look it deals is cash paid divided by salary caps in the years they played. Jones would be 82M divided by 480M, or 17%.
As far as slots, this is the way I look at it.
Each of those teams negotiated "option" years in those deals. The Giants just paid more.
Mayfield had the baggage of getting traded and then getting cut. Jones had the baggage of getting banged up, the turnovers, and sucking balls. I don't think Mayfield's baggage was > than Jones's. But if it was, it wasn't 2X.
mixing and matching some things to make your point. mayfield didnt get 2x jones, he got his 2nd year partially guaranteed, jones got it fully guaranteed. thats the big difference.
I am not mixing anything. My point is Mayfield received 40M in full guarantees and Jones received 82M.
Mayfield had a better career record, was more durable, and won playoff games in 2 separate seasons.
The reason (you've alluded to it, and I agree) Mayfield didn't land a huge deal is because he bounced around, and either real or perceived there's a stigma, and he had more to prove.
That thing he had to prove landed him 1/2 as much guaranteed money. My view is Jones had just as much to prove.
Said in another way, I wish the Giants would had given Jones the deal Mayfield received.
anyone would like to spend less on anything but markets are what they are. mayfield seemed to have less of a threat of a tag so he had a clear path to open market, and he only got 1 year guaranteed that wasnt far off tag amount anyway. he was willing to take less and i doubt it was for no reason. it could have just been the fortune of more QB options on the market this year with fields/wilson both available cheap.
Quote:
1. Tampa Bay did not draft Mayfield. They had less attachment to him.
2. Tampa Bay benefitted from seeing how the Jones deal played out in year one.
I think a third, and it's unfortunately the point I've made over and over: the Giants really like Daniel Jones.
this is correct and something we talked about last year once the details of his deal came out.
when judge came in you may remember he refused to name him the starter in the offseason he was hired until camp. in 2022 he had the 5yo first declined. Jones seems to win people over. this will probably queue some maraphobia, but that doesn't explain it when each regime first entered willing to not endorse him. or why schoen didnt just tag him last year if the price got outside his comfort zone. or why they passed on qbs this year when mara publicly said it was up to them.
they put those incentives in his contract for being top 5/top 10 in a bunch of stats because they know what he isnt. but i think we now have an abundance of evidence that they like what he is, even post torn acl.
He's got the size, the arm, and the wheels. He's smart, respectful, likable, and tough. In a controlled environment he looks outstanding.
I think his fatal flaw is measured in tenths of seconds. The "not a fast mind" element Sy described. I think when an outsider sees his tape they see a lot of falling apart. But when they get close to him, they think they can be the one that can get practice Jones to be game Jones.
If there's any quarterback that needs a lot of pass pro in the league it's him. I don't think it's weapons for Jones. I think it's time.
Quote:
In comment 16536666 Sean said:
Quote:
1. Tampa Bay did not draft Mayfield. They had less attachment to him.
2. Tampa Bay benefitted from seeing how the Jones deal played out in year one.
I think a third, and it's unfortunately the point I've made over and over: the Giants really like Daniel Jones.
this is correct and something we talked about last year once the details of his deal came out.
when judge came in you may remember he refused to name him the starter in the offseason he was hired until camp. in 2022 he had the 5yo first declined. Jones seems to win people over. this will probably queue some maraphobia, but that doesn't explain it when each regime first entered willing to not endorse him. or why schoen didnt just tag him last year if the price got outside his comfort zone. or why they passed on qbs this year when mara publicly said it was up to them.
they put those incentives in his contract for being top 5/top 10 in a bunch of stats because they know what he isnt. but i think we now have an abundance of evidence that they like what he is, even post torn acl.
I wonder if next years HC will fall in love with Jones too
The others on that list, I wouldn't pay. I don't think you're winning a title with any of them.
Quote:
In comment 16536124 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
In comment 16536107 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16536100 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
In comment 16536085 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16536083 christian said:
Quote:
There's no doubt Jones was hyper-efficient in 2022. Ideally at any position you're looking for a balance of efficiency and productivity.
At the risk of digressing, that's why I'm always leery to get excited at a pass catcher with high catch numbers, when it's really the yards per target that move the needle.
I can't imagine the Giants compensated Jones because they felt 2022 was a destination. And let's be real, there are lots of players who get compensated for that. Meaning, the team would be more than happy to rinse and repeat results.
I'm assuming the Giants compensated Jones because they felt like 2022 was a marker in upward journey.
I think you're probably giving the Giants too much credit. John Mara said "We're back!" and then slept through this:
Did you think the Giants should pay Jones after the Minnesota playoff win?
For about 12 hours, yes. After the elation of the playoff win wore off, logical thought took back over.
After the Philadelphia game (which did happen), most of the good feeling around the team was gone for me. It was clear what they were: a pretty poor team that was the beneficiary of a good deal of luck and an excellent coaching performance.
I'm right that the Philadelphia game happened? Winning in Minnesota wasn't the Super Bowl?
From my pov Terps, you are very harsh with the Giants decisions (understandable to a point). I also think that it is somewhat probable that you believe you would be a much better GM of the team based on your comments over the years. You (probably through emotion) thought Jones should be paid after beating a team with an absolute terrible defense (possibly historically bad). It just seems a little off that you often mock the Giants and other fans for talking positively about the Minnesota playoff win, yet that very game was a deciding factor in your thinking that Jones should be paid.
There isn't a doubt in my mind that Terps would have been a better GM than the collective performances of our GMs over the past decade.
Terps has been spot on in recognizing the fundamental problems with this organization, problems that have been completely missed for years by the shills, pollyanna gaslighters and delusional optimists on this board, all of whom attempt to bully other fans into submission with their off base opinions of this severely underperforming organization. The enemy is not other Giants fans. It is the inconceivably poor management of this franchise.
There isn't a greater Giants fan on this board than Terps. To indefatigably counter the trolling fanboy bullshit on behalf of the very large contingent of "beyond distressed Giants fans" is the very definition of a leader. Keep up the great work Terps and maybe some day we will have a competitive team again!
I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment. I have not and do not see anything special about Terps' track record here. That is not a bad thing, I just think it is commonly overstated. He's been right on certain things and wrong on other like most of us.
Terps has been right about the NYG franchise culture of "friends and family". And about the idea that they must first fall in love with players before they can commit to them. Yes he has been wrong on players. As have we all. But what he is actually saying is that there needs to be a ruthless performance based meritocracy that governs the development of personnel, not the consistently wrong preferences of an ivory tower oligarchy.
So it isn't about Malik Willis or JJ McCarthy. It is about drafting quarterbacks as often as necessary to find their elite guy. Not one every fifteen years. This year, after missing out on Drake Maye, there was only one reason in this world to have not drafted either Pratt or Milton in the sixth round. And that is their unconditional love for DJ and their desire to prove themselves right on this ridiculous six year charade.
Had Terps been GM, he would have drafted Lamar Jackson in 2018. And this entire DJ Era would never have happened. Instead, we are looking square in the face now after the Trevor Lawrence contract of the DJ Era now extending through 2026. Why? Not because DJ is a good player. Far from it. He will likely be characterized when all is said and done as the worst NFL quarterback to have ever played the position. HardTruth will skillfully guide BBI with facts as this now likely plays out for three more years.
No. It is because they simply like him! He is friends and family now. And that means that Terps, once again, has been right all along.
Eric is gonna hate the drop-off once Dan leaves.
Quote:
1. Tampa Bay did not draft Mayfield. They had less attachment to him.
2. Tampa Bay benefitted from seeing how the Jones deal played out in year one.
I think a third, and it's unfortunately the point I've made over and over: the Giants really like Daniel Jones.
I agree. Just how much is still worth debating. On one hand it's clear that Schoen is not going to draft a QB just to draft one. If NYG was picking third, there is no doubt in my mind that Maye would be a Giant. So in that scenario, they like Jones, but not enough to pass on Maye.
I think it's reasonable to say NYG wanted to take McCarthy and they met with him as much as they did to try and justify taking him at six. They couldn't get there and that will remain to be seen if that was the correct move or not. Penix & Nix are two different cases - both 24 and only 2.5 years younger than Jones. I expect QBs like them to be available each year. They both got much better after they transferred schools.
I wanted any of the top six QBs, I also expected the back end of those QBs to be available in the second round.
So, do they like Jones? Of course. Do they like him to keep him as the starter in 2025 after a 7-10 season? I don't think so.
He either has a good season or he’s done. It’s that simple. I think he will play well but people think he has to play all pro level and that’s unfair. He now has weapons, expectations are higher. I think he can hit 3800 yards if the receivers stay healthy.
He did beat the 424-429 Vikings in the playoffs.
That's points scored/points given up during the regular season. Giant's fans like to point to a selective statistic to make it look like the Vikings were something impressive in 2022.
Wow, one playoff season in his 5 years, 20% of the time, when the average NFL team gets to the playoff 43.75% of the time.
And late round QB was going to be evaluated against DeVito who's already won NFL games. There is a good chance Milton and Pratt never do.
Well let's shut site down!
Also, I am not sure how Terps doing 'good work' in a fan forum helps make the Giants competitive again. This forum has a weird take that the Giants look to the fans opinions on this forum to run the team. In fact, it does not make any sense considering the Giants often do not follow the opinions of the fans here.
Have you also considered that it is a hell of a lot easier saying what you would do as a fan in forum vs pulling the trigger when the bullets are live?
Not a lot of members but they are very dedicated.
Quote:
In comment 16536557 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16536532 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 16536521 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16536512 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
I’m sure there Giants like Saqoun a lot, not budging from their price doesn’t mean they didn’t want him back a lot.
Plenty of teams let players they love walk because they don’t feel the price is worth it. You don’t think the Giants would have taken back Linval Joseph if the price was reasonable?
I don’t need to stretch too hard to believe the gm was telling the truth about liking a guy he signs to the biggest contract in franchise history.
And linval signed a reasonable contract that ended up being underpaid, we stupidly paid Beason instead of him at a similar amount. Bad teams are usually the result of bad choices.
Like signing a QB who can’t throw touchdowns to a contract that takes up 17% of next years cap
Where did I ever say extending jones may not end up a bad choice? Just bc they paid a reasonable price doesn’t mean it will work out.
The simpleton ? Lombardi is click baiting was “what did he ever do to get paid what he’s paid” and the answer is 2022. The 17% is more stupid hyperbole bc last year he was like 6%.
So what you’re saying is Lombardi, or anyone else for that matter that doesn’t view ‘22 as anything more than a mediocre performance in a dumbed down version of Daboll offense with a easy schedule as some kind of season that should lead to a $40M+/year contract after the much larger sample size would fore tell that this QB may just not be very good is/are just “simpletons” looking for click bait? Wtf? And don’t give us this shit that you aren’t saying it wasn’t a bad contract. If you honestly felt that way it wouldn’t be such a shock to you that Lombardi and many, many, many others feel it was a bad contract based an an incredibly small and yet overstated sample size of that “historic” ‘22 season
Not quite - I’m saying anyone who wants to claim to be an nfl expert like mr “eye of the gm” should understand why jones got paid what he did because it is basic nfl economics. They don’t need to agree with it.
I’d also point out that if 18 games of 2022 was “incredibly small and yet overstated sample size” isn’t the same even more true for those looking to use the far smaller sample of 2023 as a means to invalidate 2022?
Sure, if you want to pretend that Daniel Jones’ career started in 2022 like many of you seem to want to do. Unfortunately for your argument, it didn’t….
This should be easy for all those so sure the have the right read on him, and it's objective.
Perhaps one day Lamar will do the same. Doesn't get much better than having a top D that holds a team to zero points in the second half of the AFCCG. Ravens built that team to accommodate his skill set but hard to navigate the playoffs without the big game from the pocket. This was the concern with him coming out of college that has proven to be accurate imv.
This should be easy for all those so sure the have the right read on him, and it's objective.
I will be surprised if Jones finishes the season this year. I think he could easily be benched due to performance and of course injury issues. I moved on from Jones last year (I never accepted him as a franchise qb, but I wanted to be patient to give him what I considered a fair shot.) From my uneducated view of qb play, he continued to make poor decisions last year despite having the experience. QB's with enough experience in the league (even under bad circumstances) should be able (in my view) show they have improved their decision making skills. I did not see that.
The economics make keeping him next year easy. I first thought it was an interesting blip, but it was actually a savvy move for Team Jones.
His cash costs per year:
2023 - 46
2024 - 36
2025 - 30
2026 - 47
Years one and two were the full guarantees, but year three is weirdly cheap.
If he plays well and they don't pick a QB, he stays.
If he's average, and they pick a replacement he's a cheap enough bridge.
If he gets hurt seriously, 23M is guaranteed, so unless he loses a leg they'll probably keep him as a cheap enough bridge.
The only way he's not a Giant is if he's healthy in March of 2025 and was awful.
Quote:
So, do they like Jones? Of course. Do they like him to keep him as the starter in 2025 after a 7-10 season? I don't think so.
The economics make keeping him next year easy. I first thought it was an interesting blip, but it was actually a savvy move for Team Jones.
His cash costs per year:
2023 - 46
2024 - 36
2025 - 30
2026 - 47
Years one and two were the full guarantees, but year three is weirdly cheap.
If he plays well and they don't pick a QB, he stays.
If he's average, and they pick a replacement he's a cheap enough bridge.
If he gets hurt seriously, 23M is guaranteed, so unless he loses a leg they'll probably keep him as a cheap enough bridge.
The only way he's not a Giant is if he's healthy in March of 2025 and was awful.
with 15 months of hindsight, i think his deal was a 2 year trial with 2 option years. yes that was probably obvious day 1, but i think 2023 was a stress test of sorts that tested their resolve. In a worst case scenario where everything goes as badly as possible, including a major knee injury, will they still like him as much as they did in the afterglow of a cinderella season knowing there was an escape hatch 1 year away?
the answer ended up being yes. i suppose they werent blind to maye, but i dont think they were blind to jones demonstrated ceiling when they signed him for all the reasons mentioned in this thread re where his contract ranks.
The savvy part on Team Jones's part, whether by design or luck, was having the cash cost in year three dip.
He's exceedingly keepable in year three, whether as a bridge or the guy.
The only way he gets cut is if he's both healthy and truly sucks. I'd file that under practically guaranteed.
And late round QB was going to be evaluated against DeVito who's already won NFL games. There is a good chance Milton and Pratt never do.
Yes, I believe Nix and JJM are middling talents, no better and no worse than DJ himself. I would have had no problem with Schoen drafting Penix. But as I have said, given the injury risk and the opportunity cost of Nabers, I was fine with the pick at six. But picking a JAG linebacker instead of either Milton or Pratt, which would have meant that one of the four QBs would be cut before the 2024 season, would be a clear signal that the disastrous age of anointed scholarships for middling talents was over and that an elite talent would have to EARN the starting position going forward. Instead, we are likely now left with DJ Era status quo for three more years. So yes, not picking Milton or Pratt with a throw away draft pick was another devastating miss by Schoen.
This should be easy for all those so sure the have the right read on him, and it's objective.
Here's a simple answer derived from his career averages and what i expect to be an offense that passes the ball very close to 600x:
64% comp
19.8 tds (3.3% of 600)
12.6 ints (2.1% of 600)
3900 yards (6.6 y/a)
85 QB rating
50-60 QBR (which would rank somewhere between 10-20 most years)
and then lets say 100 rushes @ 5 ypc for 500 yards rushing plus a few tds (i regressed his rushing under his career averages assuming some negative injury impact).
i'll let everyone else more confident on the future guess how many games he plays, they have more foresight on the future than me. 60/5 = 12 so that's probably where id set the o/u.
Not a lot of members but they are very dedicated.
Another brilliant contribution from Dup_026!
Quote:
Can we call the Mike the president of the GTFC?
Not a lot of members but they are very dedicated.
Another brilliant contribution from Dup_026!
How would you know him? You weren’t around when he was here? So any interaction with him means that YOU are the dupe, dope, or dip.
Good job outing yourself el presidente of the GTFC.
Absolutely brilliant…. So come on tough guy - what was your previous handle?
Also, I am not sure how Terps doing 'good work' in a fan forum helps make the Giants competitive again. This forum has a weird take that the Giants look to the fans opinions on this forum to run the team. In fact, it does not make any sense considering the Giants often do not follow the opinions of the fans here.
Have you also considered that it is a hell of a lot easier saying what you would do as a fan in forum vs pulling the trigger when the bullets are live?
This site is tremendous because it gives us as fans, who have been left in the wilderness now for a decade by a management group who cares more about the inner workings of the organization rather than putting a winning product on the field, a voice to express ourselves. The ouster of Joe Judge, driven by Eric and his daughter, makes it crystal clear that opinions on this site do in fact matter. So yes, Terps is doing very good work in representing a very large faction of fans who are beyond demoralized at this point.
What a fucking stupid statement.
That's a must. If it's a 2-5 start, he's done here imo. The fans are at their wits end. I don't see a scenario where starting slow and sticking with Jones is on the table. Unless they are losing shootouts.
Quote:
who the f__k cares what you guys think
Well let's shut site down!
I am afraid you and a few others would have nothing to do all day.
Quote:
In comment 16536792 JT039 said:
Quote:
Can we call the Mike the president of the GTFC?
Not a lot of members but they are very dedicated.
Another brilliant contribution from Dup_026!
How would you know him? You weren’t around when he was here? So any interaction with him means that YOU are the dupe, dope, or dip.
Good job outing yourself el presidente of the GTFC.
Absolutely brilliant…. So come on tough guy - what was your previous handle?
I was a lurker for many years but began posting in 2018 - and battled throughout the Spring of 2018 with Terps and others that Barkley was the sensible draft pick over Darnold. Terps had declared that Lamar Jackson was the sensible pick and I fought vigorously that Eli still had one more run and he just needed an elite running back. It turns out, I was dead wrong and he was absolutely right. Terps EARNED my respect at that time because he never backed off his point of view. And he continues to EARN it and I now consider his posts absolute "must read" opinions on this forum, despite not always agreeing with him.
On the day that DJ was drafted in 2019, April 25, 2019, I suspended my account and vowed to root for other teams until Gettleman was fired. In March 2021, I forgave the organization after two years and rejoined BBI under the same handle. Eric can confirm this. Please feel free to look at threads leading up to the 2018 draft if you don't believe me. But please stop gaslighting others on this board with your nonsense.
lol. We have a winner!!
Quote:
Instead of the obsessive back and forth over the past, why not just put your point of views to the test. We are where we are, but what matters is what's ahead. 1) How many wins will he have this year, 2) what will Jones' stat line look like (projected over 17 game season if he misses time): Total Yards, Total TDs, and Interceptions 3) and what will his QB rank be.
This should be easy for all those so sure the have the right read on him, and it's objective.
Here's a simple answer derived from his career averages and what i expect to be an offense that passes the ball very close to 600x:
64% comp
19.8 tds (3.3% of 600)
12.6 ints (2.1% of 600)
3900 yards (6.6 y/a)
85 QB rating
50-60 QBR (which would rank somewhere between 10-20 most years)
and then lets say 100 rushes @ 5 ypc for 500 yards rushing plus a few tds (i regressed his rushing under his career averages assuming some negative injury impact).
i'll let everyone else more confident on the future guess how many games he plays, they have more foresight on the future than me. 60/5 = 12 so that's probably where id set the o/u.
Would it be fair to adjust your projections above (set at 600 att) to align with playing 12 of 17 games? That would imply 423.53 attempts (70.59% of 600), and the rest of the numbers would adjust accordingly.
If so, his numbers would instead be:
64% comp
14 TDs (3.3% of 423.53)
9 INTs (2.1% of 424.53)
2795 passing yards (6.6 y/a x 423.53)
Even leaving his rushing numbers as you have them (since you already adjusted for potential injury impact, and it feels like that impact could happen in the form of missed games rather than reduced attempts, TBD), would anyone get excited about that stat line?
So would it shock me if he threw for 4000 yards and 25 TDs? Not at all.
And guess what - even with stats like that it doesn’t mean he’s worth keeping either.
lol. We have a winner!!
Dep thoughts with Jack Tandy... doing what he does best as usual. Gaslighting other posters to conceal his utter lack of football acumen. Start thinking about your next handle - you will need it soon.
If the Giants win 7 games, good chance we see a new HC unless one of those seasons with heavy injuries and a bunch of very close losses. The new HC will then have a big say with the QB decision.
Quote:
Who quit on his team.
lol. We have a winner!!
Dep thoughts with Jack Tandy... doing what he does best as usual. Gaslighting other posters to conceal his utter lack of football acumen. Start thinking about your next handle - you will need it soon.
Please quit on the giants again. Board was better without you. Maybe you can “lurk” again - el presidente of GTFC.
Quote:
Terps has been far from the only poster to call the Giants out on the behavior you have described above, just the loudest.
Also, I am not sure how Terps doing 'good work' in a fan forum helps make the Giants competitive again. This forum has a weird take that the Giants look to the fans opinions on this forum to run the team. In fact, it does not make any sense considering the Giants often do not follow the opinions of the fans here.
Have you also considered that it is a hell of a lot easier saying what you would do as a fan in forum vs pulling the trigger when the bullets are live?
This site is tremendous because it gives us as fans, who have been left in the wilderness now for a decade by a management group who cares more about the inner workings of the organization rather than putting a winning product on the field, a voice to express ourselves. The ouster of Joe Judge, driven by Eric and his daughter, makes it crystal clear that opinions on this site do in fact matter. So yes, Terps is doing very good work in representing a very large faction of fans who are beyond demoralized at this point.
Do you have proof that BBI played an intricate role in Judge being fired?
Well let's shut site down!
I am afraid you and a few others would have nothing to do all day.
I'm assuming this recent old bitchy queen act is a new development for you. Someone this whiney I would have noticed before.
LOS - Yes, I have seen this claim. I can see that being used as a single piece of 'evidence' but not proof.
The clown picture very well may have circulated through the NYG office, but that does not necessarily mean that Judge was fired because of it. I think he contributed plenty of that. Saying another way - If the clown picture does not get posted, does Judge still get fired? I think yes.
Quote:
who the f__k cares what you guys think
Well let's shut site down!
I am afraid you and a few others would have nothing to do all day.
I'm assuming this recent old bitchy queen act is a new development for you. Someone this whiney I would have noticed before.
Yep. This is the same clown that ridiculed everyone for posting on BBI this past weekend because he was out golfing so everyone else must be losers without a life. Must be his golf nerd buddies dumped his ass today so it’s cool to post, while once again ridiculing others for posting…
But you don't see my patrolling the greens telling everyone they're losers for spending their afternoon golfing!
But you don't see my patrolling the greens telling everyone they're losers for spending their afternoon golfing!
Your dry humor is a definite plus to this site.
Devastating? Haha wow. I would love to see a live look at the reactions of real NFL personnel executives when reading BBI.
Oh and you got a lil’ something on your chin Mike.
So would it shock me if he threw for 4000 yards and 25 TDs? Not at all.
And guess what - even with stats like that it doesn’t mean he’s worth keeping either.
Can Jones attack those 12-20 yard area? I don't think he's accurate enough, anticipates enough or has a good enough arm to make up for the other two issues. He's the worst passer of the the 3 qb's. We shall see.
Quote:
Because he’s going to throw a lot more this year because we don’t have Barkley and we added some nice weapons. Plus the growth of Robinson and Hyatt should help.
So would it shock me if he threw for 4000 yards and 25 TDs? Not at all.
And guess what - even with stats like that it doesn’t mean he’s worth keeping either.
DC's get paid too. How are they going to play the Giants with Jones at qb? I think they are going to have their pass rushers stay in their lanes, change their coverages in the short zones and play safeties deep. Make Jones throw in that 12-20 yard area and with anticipation. If the Giants want to hand the ball off 25-30 times to what we have at rb or run Jones on designed runs, DC's will be glad to let them do it.
Can Jones attack those 12-20 yard area? I don't think he's accurate enough, anticipates enough or has a good enough arm to make up for the other two issues. He's the worst passer of the the 3 qb's. We shall see.
That’s very possible too. It’s a great unknown. I think we have some very good WRs that can get big chunk plays this year.
But to be clear before I am labeled by posters. Jones can have impressive stats but be carried by his WRs. I really like our WRs now.
Quote:
In comment 16536896 joe48 said:
Quote:
who the f__k cares what you guys think
Well let's shut site down!
I am afraid you and a few others would have nothing to do all day.
I'm assuming this recent old bitchy queen act is a new development for you. Someone this whiney I would have noticed before.
Yep. This is the same clown that ridiculed everyone for posting on BBI this past weekend because he was out golfing so everyone else must be losers without a life. Must be his golf nerd buddies dumped his ass today so it’s cool to post, while once again ridiculing others for posting…
The clown golfed again this morning with his nerd friends. Happy Father’s Day!🤣