for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

What Will it Take for Jones *Not* to Return in 25

christian : 6/18/2024 10:03 am
If there's one thing we've learned over the last 5 years is the Giants love them some Daniel Jones.

A few contract things I think increase the chances he returns:

- Next year is the cheap year in his contract, keeping him in 2025 will only cost 30.5M in cash (cash by year 46, 36, 30.5, 47.5).

- In a strange way getting hurt would might help him. If he can't pass a physical in March, 23M of that 30.5M is guaranteed. If they're already paying 75%, it might make sense to let him rehab and pay the additional 7.5M.

So with contract stuff in his favor, I think it would take a disaster of a season, including Daboll getting fired for Jones to not return.

Obviously a good season secures his return. But I think even a bad to average season won't end his tenure. He becomes quite cheap as a bridge.
Nothing less than  
JoeyBigBlue : 6/18/2024 10:04 am : link
A long playoff run.
RE: Nothing less than  
christian : 6/18/2024 10:06 am : link
In comment 16538776 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
A long playoff run.


You think the Giants will cut Jones if he doesn't have a long playoff run? That doesn't make much sense financially.
If DJ fails miserably I can’t imagine he returns in 2025  
Rick in Dallas : 6/18/2024 10:09 am : link
That would be the death sentence for Daboll and Schoen imv
Starts the Season Underwater  
Lambuth_Special : 6/18/2024 10:14 am : link
Loses against Minnesota and looks mediocre, never gets settled in and the team is always 2 or 3 games below .500. I think he makes it 8 games on that trajectory and then is benched. The MGM casino having his TD O/U at 9.5 is an indication that his leash won't be very long if he struggles.

I do agree that if the team hovers around .500 and Jones playes even as good as the 20th best QB, they'll bring him back.
His cash number may be low  
BillT : 6/18/2024 10:16 am : link
But his cap hit is still about $42m and cap savings about $20m. So, I don’t see the cap being a major factor in his favor or not in his favor. It going to be about his play on the field.
RE: RE: Nothing less than  
JoeyBigBlue : 6/18/2024 10:19 am : link
In comment 16538778 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16538776 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


A long playoff run.



You think the Giants will cut Jones if he doesn't have a long playoff run? That doesn't make much sense financially.


If he plays well (4000 yards, 30+ total TDs) and has a long playoff run, let’s say to the Conference championship game, it will be hard to release him. But we both know that won’t happen.
It would have to be a disaster for him not to be brought back  
Blue The Dog : 6/18/2024 10:20 am : link
I truly think that at this point, he would need to be embarrassingly bad to not be brought back. Basically, if he has more TDs than turnovers, he will be the unquestioned starter in 2025.

He's going to play as the 25th - 18th best QB, and at the end of the year we are going to hear about how it's unfair to truly evaluate him coming off an injury, with a rookie WR, and an OL that "hasn't had time to gel."
Nice  
logman : 6/18/2024 10:21 am : link
Workshopping pre-excuses in the event Jones does what Jones is apt to do.

RE: His cash number may be low  
christian : 6/18/2024 10:21 am : link
In comment 16538787 BillT said:
Quote:
But his cap hit is still about $42m and cap savings about $20m. So, I don’t see the cap being a major factor in his favor or not in his favor. It going to be about his play on the field.


I agree the cap impact won't be a factor, but I disagree cost won't be.

In real terms keeping Jones next year will be a 1/30M commitment. That's a pretty low number for a bridge starter.
Oh cool!  
Johnny5 : 6/18/2024 10:22 am : link
Another DJ thread. Yay.
Another year like this…  
90.Cal : 6/18/2024 10:22 am : link
2020: 11 passing touchdowns
2021: 10 passing touchdowns
2022: 15 passing touchdowns
2023: 2 passing touchdowns
RE: RE: His cash number may be low  
BillT : 6/18/2024 10:25 am : link
In comment 16538792 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16538787 BillT said:


Quote:


But his cap hit is still about $42m and cap savings about $20m. So, I don’t see the cap being a major factor in his favor or not in his favor. It going to be about his play on the field.



I agree the cap impact won't be a factor, but I disagree cost won't be.

In real terms keeping Jones next year will be a 1/30M commitment. That's a pretty low number for a bridge starter.

Not sure I believe they think like that. The cap number yes, the cash number?
...  
christian : 6/18/2024 10:26 am : link
All things considered (older, more wear etc.) -- let's look at what earned Jones a 2/82M commitment.

- Stayed healthy
- 9-7-1 regular season, highly efficient, average production
- One very good playoff game, one very bad playoff game

So then what's the threshold for a 1/30M commitment?
Another year like 2022 isn’t going to do it.  
Section331 : 6/18/2024 10:30 am : link
We’ve heard the excuses “that was a running team!” (as if QB’s of other running teams can’t throw more than 15 TD passes), OK, fine, but this will not be a run-first team.

They brought in Singletary, who’s selling point is that he is a dual threat. They drafted Tracy, a converted WR, at RB. They’ve significantly upgraded the WR corps. Anything less than 3,800 yards and 25 TD’s just isn’t going to cut it, especially if it’s combined with an under 7 YPA.
.  
Go Terps : 6/18/2024 10:32 am : link
RE: Oh cool!  
Darwinian : 6/18/2024 10:32 am : link
In comment 16538793 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
Another DJ thread. Yay.


Nobody's forcing you to read it.

...  
christian : 6/18/2024 10:33 am : link
In comment 16538796 BillT said:
Quote:
But his cap hit is still about $42m and cap savings about $20m. So, I don’t see the cap being a major factor in his favor or not in his favor. It going to be about his play on the field.

I agree the cap impact won't be a factor, but I disagree cost won't be.

In real terms keeping Jones next year will be a 1/30M commitment. That's a pretty low number for a bridge starter.

Not sure I believe they think like that. The cap number yes, the cash number?


If you want to look at if from a cap perspective, the save 30.5M in cap space if they cut him. They save 19.4M in 2025 and 11.1M on 2026.

The real question is whether one year of additional service from Jones is worth 30.5M.
People assume he's here for good because they didn't draft JJM  
Sean : 6/18/2024 10:33 am : link
I'll say for him to return he'll need to make the playoffs and stay healthy. Anything less he's gone. I don't think drafting Nabers had much to do with Jones.

They structured the contract in a way to move off him after this year.
I have no clue  
section125 : 6/18/2024 10:36 am : link
what they are thinking and what they will do. I think another year similar to 2023(even without the injuries) and he is toast. I think he is on a short leash.

Another season of truly bad OLine could save him somewhat.
RE: People assume he's here for good because they didn't draft JJM  
christian : 6/18/2024 10:38 am : link
In comment 16538807 Sean said:
Quote:
I'll say for him to return he'll need to make the playoffs and stay healthy. Anything less he's gone. I don't think drafting Nabers had much to do with Jones.

They structured the contract in a way to move off him after this year.


I actually think it's quite the other way around. The contract was constructed to make it easy for them to keep him the third year.

The other variable I missed in the OP is that 12M of 2025 salary becomes guaranteed March 5th. So prior to the draft the Giants effectively must decide whether they keep him or not.

I don't think keeping Jones precludes them from drafting a quarterback in 2025 draft, but they will have to decide before the draft.

It's a clever element of the deal that benefits Team Jones.
Who cares at this point?  
dannyman3131 : 6/18/2024 10:39 am : link
He should end up being the starter, if healthy, and with a better supporting cast have a positive season. I get that its the slow period but there should be a block on DJ threads until camp.

I for one will be rooting for him to win a bunch of games and make the playoffs so we can have a little bit of fun this season. I feel like he's become so polarizing that half of the fan base wants him to be so bad he has to be cut. That just doesn't make sense to me as a fan that buys season tickets and invests many Sundays on the team.
A miracle  
HomerJones45 : 6/18/2024 10:41 am : link
His 200 yards passing 1 td a game 6.5 an attempt 400 yards on the ground as the second leading rusher on the team, will be more than enough for his ardent admirers in the FO and the fan base. The usual suspects will once again receive the blame, and Jones will add to his body count among coaching staff, receivers, and offensive linemen.
RE: RE: People assume he's here for good because they didn't draft JJM  
HomerJones45 : 6/18/2024 10:43 am : link
In comment 16538810 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16538807 Sean said:


Quote:


I'll say for him to return he'll need to make the playoffs and stay healthy. Anything less he's gone. I don't think drafting Nabers had much to do with Jones.

They structured the contract in a way to move off him after this year.



I actually think it's quite the other way around. The contract was constructed to make it easy for them to keep him the third year.

The other variable I missed in the OP is that 12M of 2025 salary becomes guaranteed March 5th. So prior to the draft the Giants effectively must decide whether they keep him or not.

I don't think keeping Jones precludes them from drafting a quarterback in 2025 draft, but they will have to decide before the draft.

It's a clever element of the deal that benefits Team Jones.
The whole thing benefits Team Jones. Schoen really got taken to the woodshed on that contract.
RE: Who cares at this point?  
christian : 6/18/2024 10:44 am : link
In comment 16538811 dannyman3131 said:
Quote:
He should end up being the starter, if healthy, and with a better supporting cast have a positive season. I get that its the slow period but there should be a block on DJ threads until camp.

I for one will be rooting for him to win a bunch of games and make the playoffs so we can have a little bit of fun this season. I feel like he's become so polarizing that half of the fan base wants him to be so bad he has to be cut. That just doesn't make sense to me as a fan that buys season tickets and invests many Sundays on the team.


Any chance we can have a block on you posting in perpetuity?
The guy has never raised anyone's level of play  
sb from NYT Forum : 6/18/2024 10:45 am : link
...in fact, OL guys like Feliciano and Hernandez leave here and all of the sudden look competent.

Engram leaves here and all of the sudden no more drops.

Barkley never came close to what he was when Eli was his QB. Yes, injuries, but he was healthy in 2022 and his receiving was way down. Plus maybe his blitz pickup might have something to do with Jones not recognizing where the blitz is coming from?

I hope I eat crow but all evidence points to the guy just not being good at football.
RE: Oh cool!  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/18/2024 10:46 am : link
In comment 16538793 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
Another DJ thread. Yay.

Do you possess any willpower at all? Or do you gain weight on every diet because every day becomes a cheat day for you?

The topic is right in the subject line. You have the option to skip the thread entirely.

But you can't.
RE: RE: RE: People assume he's here for good because they didn't draft JJM  
section125 : 6/18/2024 10:47 am : link
In comment 16538814 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:


It's a clever element of the deal that benefits Team Jones.

The whole thing benefits Team Jones. Schoen really got taken to the woodshed on that contract.


The contract is fine - no woodshed. The player signing the contract IS the woodshed.
If it's up to me.. I cut him yesterday.  
Darwinian : 6/18/2024 10:47 am : link
But for Mara, I have no real idea. I think Mara has to be embarrassed to move off his glamor boy. Mara doesn't like to be embarrassed by the fans.If the Giants finish last in the division, which I expect, then Jones is a goner. Beyond that, it's a coin flip.
I think it's going to take a catastrophic injury  
Go Terps : 6/18/2024 10:52 am : link
If you assume it's a typical Giants season (5 to 9 wins), who's going to move the needle enough to make them dump a healthy Daniel and eat a cap hit? Are they going to dump him, eat the money, AND pay Dak or Tua $55M a year (and that's assuming either even makes it to FA)?

What's the alternative to Jones in 2025?

A few factors for me  
UConn4523 : 6/18/2024 10:53 am : link
1. How healthy was he?
2. Assuming moderately healthy, how well did he play?
3. Where are we picking in the draft?

If we finish around .500 and no playoffs we will pick in the teens, and I can see us sticking with him. Under that and he’s gone whether he was hurt or unproductive.

If he’s healthy and we only improve 1-2 wins than he needs to go. If he’s hurt again he needs to go.
I think that outside a career ending injury  
Mike from Ohio : 6/18/2024 10:56 am : link
Jones will be back for 2025. The organization seems satisfied that he is a solid NFL starter, and his cap hit of $30M next year is not bad for a guy you consider to be a solid NFL starter.

If Jones plays 12 games, throws for 2,000+ yards and 10+ TDs, I think he will be the unquestioned starter heading into 2025, with the idea that better protection and more weapons is all he needs.
How about this, we wait until the season starts and we watch how  
Jack Stroud : 6/18/2024 10:56 am : link
Jones plays, and more important, we see if the oline is any better and will the defense be any better.
...  
christian : 6/18/2024 10:58 am : link
The injury component actually might play to his favor. Let's say Jones blows his Achilles in October, and the standard recovery is 8-9 months.

On March 5th he fails a physical, and the Giants owe him 23M. Do they cut him on the spot or do they let him continue to rehab and see how the draft and UFA play out?

And if Jones is healthy by June and it only costs an additional 7M for him to be on the roster, do they pay him?
RE: How about this, we wait until the season starts and we watch how  
christian : 6/18/2024 10:59 am : link
In comment 16538833 Jack Stroud said:
Quote:
Jones plays, and more important, we see if the oline is any better and will the defense be any better.


A choice that you are absolutely empowered to make. I think?
RE: I think that outside a career ending injury  
UConn4523 : 6/18/2024 11:00 am : link
In comment 16538832 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Jones will be back for 2025. The organization seems satisfied that he is a solid NFL starter, and his cap hit of $30M next year is not bad for a guy you consider to be a solid NFL starter.

If Jones plays 12 games, throws for 2,000+ yards and 10+ TDs, I think he will be the unquestioned starter heading into 2025, with the idea that better protection and more weapons is all he needs.


I don’t think that does it. If he misses 5 games and the playoffs that seals his fate IMO. Just like it would have if it happened in 2022 and probably last year as well if we didn’t already commit the money.
Actually, re reading the OP  
UConn4523 : 6/18/2024 11:02 am : link
I’ll revise - he may be back in 2025 due to finances but a rookie would be drafted if he gets injured again.
RE: ...  
section125 : 6/18/2024 11:02 am : link
In comment 16538834 christian said:
Quote:
The injury component actually might play to his favor. Let's say Jones blows his Achilles in October, and the standard recovery is 8-9 months.

On March 5th he fails a physical, and the Giants owe him 23M. Do they cut him on the spot or do they let him continue to rehab and see how the draft and UFA play out?

And if Jones is healthy by June and it only costs an additional 7M for him to be on the roster, do they pay him?


When does that additional $7 mill become guaranteed? How late can they cut him and save the $7 mill?

I think another injury year is death knell...
If the Giants go 7-10  
Sean : 6/18/2024 11:02 am : link
And Jones has a pedestrian season, he'll be cut before 3/5 imo.
Similar thoughts  
Mike in Morris : 6/18/2024 11:04 am : link
(A few contract things I think increase the chances he returns:

- Next year is the cheap year in his contract, keeping him in 2025 will only cost 30.5M in cash (cash by year 46, 36, 30.5, 47.5).

- In a strange way getting hurt would might help him. If he can't pass a physical in March, 23M of that 30.5M is guaranteed. If they're already paying 75%, it might make sense to let him rehab and pay the additional 7.5M.

So with contract stuff in his favor, I think it would take a disaster of a season, including Daboll getting fired for Jones to not return.

Obviously a good season secures his return. But I think even a bad to average season won't end his tenure. He becomes quite cheap as a bridge.)


I’ve been thinking the same things lately. Jones would have to really shit the the bed for them to not at least consider bringing him back in 25.
If he looks average or better AND gets the injury money, 7.5 million more might look cheap.
I’m not a djfc member but I’m preparing myself for possibility of his return next year.
If Luck looks good, that would factor into the decision.
there is a much simpler answer to this ?  
Eric on Li : 6/18/2024 11:06 am : link
if they can get someone they like better, they will do it.
if they cant, jones will be back.

how much they like jones vs alternatives will depend largely on how the season goes, and the alternatives available will be just as big of a factor as jones performance, maybe even bigger (i.e. jones didn't dictate a qb draft pick this year as much as maye would have and jjm didnt).
RE: If the Giants go 7-10  
Go Terps : 6/18/2024 11:08 am : link
In comment 16538841 Sean said:
Quote:
And Jones has a pedestrian season, he'll be cut before 3/5 imo.


In that scenario the Giants will likely be entering the FA period with zero QBs under contract. Hard to imagine when they could just keep Jones for a cheaper number than they just did.
He's got a short leash  
EJNNJ : 6/18/2024 11:09 am : link
If he starts 1-4 or 2-5 he's getting benched and depending on how Locke performs he may not get the back in.

Outside of a start(career ender) like that he needs to have competent 8-9 20TD+ season, imv it's the baseline MINIMUM he needs to hit to be back in '25
RE: I think it's going to take a catastrophic injury  
90.Cal : 6/18/2024 11:09 am : link
In comment 16538827 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If you assume it's a typical Giants season (5 to 9 wins), who's going to move the needle enough to make them dump a healthy Daniel and eat a cap hit? Are they going to dump him, eat the money, AND pay Dak or Tua $55M a year (and that's assuming either even makes it to FA)?

What's the alternative to Jones in 2025?


Trading for a QB or trading up for a QB
RE: there is a much simpler answer to this ?  
Jay7852 : 6/18/2024 11:09 am : link
In comment 16538843 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
if they can get someone they like better, they will do it.
if they cant, jones will be back.

how much they like jones vs alternatives will depend largely on how the season goes, and the alternatives available will be just as big of a factor as jones performance, maybe even bigger (i.e. jones didn't dictate a qb draft pick this year as much as maye would have and jjm didnt).



This is the answer! If they can draft someone or sign someone they view as an upgrade, bye bye DJ, if not..he will be back
A revolt by the fans and/or locker room  
Jerry in_DC : 6/18/2024 11:11 am : link
Hes already a great player in the lusty eyes of John Mara. To keep Mara, all he needs to do is to have a bunch of regular Daniel Jones games. Play like a backup QB, continue looking and acting like Johm wants his QB to look and act.

The thing that could swing it is regularly getting booed off the field at home and/or back channeled complaints from the locker room about the organizational favoritism showed to Daniel.
I can see Schoen cutting financial losses  
UConn4523 : 6/18/2024 11:12 am : link
to just move on. Whether it’s yet another injury, fractured locker room, etc I think there’s factors that can come into play outside of what happens on the field.
Look at it this way  
Go Terps : 6/18/2024 11:14 am : link
Jones's 2023 could not have gone worse on the field:

1. Rumors of neck issues impacting his throwing motion
2. He tore his ACL
3. When he played he was horrendous
4. Taylor and DeVito made him look like the third best QB on the team

And yet, after an offseason that saw Kirk Cousins become an FA and one of the strongest QB draft classes in years, Jones is here.

Next year's FA class probably won't have a Cousins in it, the draft class is expected to be weaker, and Jones is going to cost less.

So why would the Giants not bring him back in 2025?
I answered that above  
UConn4523 : 6/18/2024 11:15 am : link
.
The biggest thing, IMO  
UberAlias : 6/18/2024 11:20 am : link
Is that they are in position to draft someone they are confident in as his replacement.
Kirk Cousins?  
JT039 : 6/18/2024 11:27 am : link
Jesus. Falcons think so highly of him - they drafted his replacement already.

What has cousins won by the way???
Mara sells the team  
56goat : 6/18/2024 11:28 am : link
.
Schoen  
ChrisRick : 6/18/2024 11:30 am : link
gave Jones a 'trust but verify' contract after 22 (probably with Daboll's approval). I think it is likely Jones is back for '25, but not necessarily as an unchallenged starter. Jones will need to show significant improvement in his game otherwise the Giants begin the process of moving on (drafting a replacement).
RE: Kirk Cousins?  
Greg from LI : 6/18/2024 11:32 am : link
In comment 16538873 JT039 said:
Quote:
Jesus. Falcons think so highly of him - they drafted his replacement already.

What has cousins won by the way???


I agree. And, still, he is a much better quarterback than Jones.
christian  
Sean : 6/18/2024 11:42 am : link
You are very good with the cap. As of now the 2025 cap hit for Jones:

--$41.6M
--15.2% of the cap

How are either of those good for the Giants?
RE: RE: Kirk Cousins?  
JT039 : 6/18/2024 11:44 am : link
In comment 16538880 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 16538873 JT039 said:


Quote:


Jesus. Falcons think so highly of him - they drafted his replacement already.

What has cousins won by the way???



I agree. And, still, he is a much better quarterback than Jones.


Yes, he definitely is. But when we upgrade from Jones - the last thing we need is a mid 30s QB who has never won.
RE: RE: RE: Kirk Cousins?  
section125 : 6/18/2024 11:48 am : link
In comment 16538893 JT039 said:
Quote:
In comment 16538880 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 16538873 JT039 said:


Quote:


Jesus. Falcons think so highly of him - they drafted his replacement already.

What has cousins won by the way???



I agree. And, still, he is a much better quarterback than Jones.



Yes, he definitely is. But when we upgrade from Jones - the last thing we need is a mid 30s QB who has never won.


Who is not that much better, really.
Underage  
Spider43 : 6/18/2024 11:55 am : link
Sex scandal.
RE: Look at it this way  
compton : 6/18/2024 11:58 am : link
In comment 16538860 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Jones's 2023 could not have gone worse on the field:

1. Rumors of neck issues impacting his throwing motion
2. He tore his ACL
3. When he played he was horrendous
4. Taylor and DeVito made him look like the third best QB on the team

And yet, after an offseason that saw Kirk Cousins become an FA and one of the strongest QB draft classes in years, Jones is here.

Next year's FA class probably won't have a Cousins in it, the draft class is expected to be weaker, and Jones is going to cost less.

So why would the Giants not bring him back in 2025?


That's why I am resigned to the fate that, barring a catastrophic injury or performance, Jones will return in 2025.
Jones  
AcidTest : 6/18/2024 11:59 am : link
Jones has to play very well to return for 2025 IMO. He has a $46M cap hit in 2025, and the Giants can cut him with only a $22M dead cap hit. Except for a few spurts, he has never played that well, and has a pretty significant injury history. The Giants also likely tried to trade up for Maye less than two months ago. Given the cost to do so, that shows you what they think of Jones.

Jones, Lock, and DeVito are at best journeyman QBs. The difference is that the latter two are extremely cheap. Taylor and DeVito outplayed Jones last year. If Lock and/or DeVito do so this year, then Jones will be cut IMO. Lock would be resigned, and the Giants will begin searching for their next franchise QB.
When it comes to FA QBs,  
Go Terps : 6/18/2024 12:00 pm : link
Cousins is about as good as it's going to get. You think Mahomes is going to hit unrestricted FA?

To those who think Jones will be gone... who's the alternative?
I’ll bet good money  
JT039 : 6/18/2024 12:02 pm : link
Cousins never sniffs a SB. So signing him would have been a horrific move.

Much like trading for Russell Wilson from a few years ago or drafting Malik Willis 5th overall.
RE: I’ll bet good money  
compton : 6/18/2024 12:13 pm : link
In comment 16538917 JT039 said:
Quote:
Cousins never sniffs a SB. So signing him would have been a horrific move.

Much like trading for Russell Wilson from a few years ago or drafting Malik Willis 5th overall.


Both Cousins and Wilson would have been better alternatives to Jones. They may not get the Giants to the Super Bowl but with a good team and coaching they would give the Giants a fighting chance to at least get to the Conference Finals.
RE: The guy has never raised anyone's level of play  
mfjmfj : 6/18/2024 12:13 pm : link
In comment 16538818 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
...in fact, OL guys like Feliciano and Hernandez leave here and all of the sudden look competent.

Engram leaves here and all of the sudden no more drops.

Barkley never came close to what he was when Eli was his QB. Yes, injuries, but he was healthy in 2022 and his receiving was way down. Plus maybe his blitz pickup might have something to do with Jones not recognizing where the blitz is coming from?

I hope I eat crow but all evidence points to the guy just not being good at football.


Lot of good points but I don't think the beginning conclusion is fair. Look at the Judge teams with Jones and without Jones. Went from a mediocre to bad offense to a little sisters of the poor offense without him. could be coaching, bad players, etc. Could be he made the team better. 2022 was a bad football team. Made the playoffs and won a game. You can give credit to coaching, schedule, SB, etc. Also fair to give credit to DJ. Same way you can look at the woes when DJ was on the field in 2023 and blame just him, or you can blame other things. I think the coaching job was great in 2022 but bad in 2023 and DJ's play was right with this.
RE: When it comes to FA QBs,  
56goat : 6/18/2024 12:14 pm : link
In comment 16538914 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Cousins is about as good as it's going to get. You think Mahomes is going to hit unrestricted FA?

To those who think Jones will be gone... who's the alternative?


Well we could draft one and develop him. Oh, wait...
I don’t see a FA QB and I really don’t see that was the way either  
UberAlias : 6/18/2024 12:18 pm : link
Look for the draft. It’d be wise of us to figure out how to accumulate some extra picks.
Let’s see  
JT039 : 6/18/2024 12:21 pm : link
Wilson has stink the last two years
He has a worse contract
And the capital to get him was astronomical.

So no- he is or was not a better option.
...  
christian : 6/18/2024 12:24 pm : link
In comment 16538843 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
if they can get someone they like better, they will do it.
if they cant, jones will be back.

The complicating variable is timing. The Giants have to make a down payment on Jones a month before the draft on March 5. Unlike this year, where 2024 Jones was already paid for, the payment structure for 2025 Jones isn't predetermined.

Now maybe they pay the 12M as insurance and proceed into UFA/trade/draft season, and that's a fair alternative.

In terms of the like factor, I don't think that's a binary scenario. The Giants can like a player in the draft and select him and rationalize keeping Jones on a 1/30M bridge deal.

In fact that scenario is probably the most similar to the scenarios you've described with both Smith/Mahomes and Smith/Kaepernick.

I know OTC is projecting the cap at 260 for 2025 right now, but I don't think that holds. I think that's an extraordinary conservative estimate that the cap only increase 5M YoY. My guess is the cap is closer to 275 for 2025. On a 275M cap, Jones would be 15% of the cap. Not great, but tolerable for continuity.
RE: RE: People assume he's here for good because they didn't draft JJM  
The Mike : 6/18/2024 12:37 pm : link
In comment 16538810 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16538807 Sean said:


Quote:


I'll say for him to return he'll need to make the playoffs and stay healthy. Anything less he's gone. I don't think drafting Nabers had much to do with Jones.

They structured the contract in a way to move off him after this year.



I actually think it's quite the other way around. The contract was constructed to make it easy for them to keep him the third year.

The other variable I missed in the OP is that 12M of 2025 salary becomes guaranteed March 5th. So prior to the draft the Giants effectively must decide whether they keep him or not.

I don't think keeping Jones precludes them from drafting a quarterback in 2025 draft, but they will have to decide before the draft.

It's a clever element of the deal that benefits Team Jones.


I think you are absolutely right. It is a virtual certainty he is brought back next year purely due to the clever way team DJ structured this contract. Never has a front office been more bamboozled by a player than this franchise.
RE: RE: Who cares at this point?  
joe48 : 6/18/2024 12:39 pm : link
In comment 16538815 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16538811 dannyman3131 said:


Quote:


He should end up being the starter, if healthy, and with a better supporting cast have a positive season. I get that its the slow period but there should be a block on DJ threads until camp.

I for one will be rooting for him to win a bunch of games and make the playoffs so we can have a little bit of fun this season. I feel like he's become so polarizing that half of the fan base wants him to be so bad he has to be cut. That just doesn't make sense to me as a fan that buys season tickets and invests many Sundays on the team.



Any chance we can have a block on you posting in perpetuity?

You wouldn’t have anything to do.
RE: Who cares at this point?  
Section331 : 6/18/2024 12:40 pm : link
In comment 16538811 dannyman3131 said:
Quote:
He should end up being the starter, if healthy, and with a better supporting cast have a positive season. I get that its the slow period but there should be a block on DJ threads until camp.

I for one will be rooting for him to win a bunch of games and make the playoffs so we can have a little bit of fun this season. I feel like he's become so polarizing that half of the fan base wants him to be so bad he has to be cut. That just doesn't make sense to me as a fan that buys season tickets and invests many Sundays on the team.


Nobody put a gun to your head to make you open this thread. If you don't want to see it, pass it by.
RE: How about this, we wait until the season starts and we watch how  
Section331 : 6/18/2024 12:42 pm : link
In comment 16538833 Jack Stroud said:
Quote:
Jones plays, and more important, we see if the oline is any better and will the defense be any better.


Our defense is preventing Jones from throwing TD passes? Maybe they're better than we thought.
RE: RE: RE: People assume he's here for good because they didn't draft JJM  
Scooter185 : 6/18/2024 12:44 pm : link
In comment 16538941 The Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 16538810 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 16538807 Sean said:


Quote:


I'll say for him to return he'll need to make the playoffs and stay healthy. Anything less he's gone. I don't think drafting Nabers had much to do with Jones.

They structured the contract in a way to move off him after this year.



I actually think it's quite the other way around. The contract was constructed to make it easy for them to keep him the third year.

The other variable I missed in the OP is that 12M of 2025 salary becomes guaranteed March 5th. So prior to the draft the Giants effectively must decide whether they keep him or not.

I don't think keeping Jones precludes them from drafting a quarterback in 2025 draft, but they will have to decide before the draft.

It's a clever element of the deal that benefits Team Jones.



I think you are absolutely right. It is a virtual certainty he is brought back next year purely due to the clever way team DJ structured this contract. Never has a front office been more bamboozled by a player than this franchise.


One more season of DJ already makes me want to vomit, I cannot fathom two
Who replaces Jones in 2025?  
Mike from Ohio : 6/18/2024 12:45 pm : link
If you want to draft a rookie, is there someone as good as Drake Maye coming out who will be easier/cheaper for the Giants to get? If the only first round QBs coming out are the JJ/Penix/Nix range, why would the Giants take one this year?

UFA is going to find you average QBs with inflated salaries - like Cousins or Dak. No team is trading a young, promising QB for anything the Giants can offer?

The Giants clearly think Jones is a good QB. Given that, which of the above options do you think they would choose over him in 2025?

If Jones is able to play in 2025 he will almost certainly be doing it as the starter for the Giants. They are open to upgrading, but it is not seen as a necessity.

...  
christian : 6/18/2024 12:46 pm : link
In comment 16538943Any chance we can have a block on you posting in perpetuity?

You wouldn’t have anything to do.[/quote]

I really am dying to know. Is this whiney gash thing new for you? The Internet says you've been on BBI for some time, but this degree of bitchiness is something I would have noticed before.
...  
christian : 6/18/2024 12:49 pm : link
In comment 16538952The Giants clearly think Jones is a good QB. Given that, which of the above options do you think they would choose over him in 2025?

If Jones is able to play in 2025 he will almost certainly be doing it as the starter for the Giants. They are open to upgrading, but it is not seen as a necessity.[/quote]

And with the requirement of a down payment to keep him on the roster throughout the draft process, I think the odds are very high he is there in 2025.
RE: Who replaces Jones in 2025?  
JT039 : 6/18/2024 12:50 pm : link
In comment 16538952 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
If you want to draft a rookie, is there someone as good as Drake Maye coming out who will be easier/cheaper for the Giants to get? If the only first round QBs coming out are the JJ/Penix/Nix range, why would the Giants take one this year?

UFA is going to find you average QBs with inflated salaries - like Cousins or Dak. No team is trading a young, promising QB for anything the Giants can offer?

The Giants clearly think Jones is a good QB. Given that, which of the above options do you think they would choose over him in 2025?

If Jones is able to play in 2025 he will almost certainly be doing it as the starter for the Giants. They are open to upgrading, but it is not seen as a necessity.


There is one option out there and I understand there might be less than 0% chance of it happening. But stranger things happen.

What if Buffalo implodes this year? Can they possibly be dumb enough to put Allen on the market for say 3 first rounders plus whatever.

Just spitballin.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Kirk Cousins?  
Section331 : 6/18/2024 12:52 pm : link
In comment 16538896 section125 said:
Quote:


Who is not that much better, really.


See, this is why many think the DJFC have lost their damn minds.

Kirk Cousins has played 8 full seasons, in 7 of them, he's thrown for over 4,000 yards, and in the 8th, almost 3,700 yards - totals Jones HAS NEVER REACHED!

In 8 full seasons, Cousins has thrown for at least 25 TD's, again, a number that Jones has never reached, and only came close once. He has never in his career averaged under 7.1 YPA, again, a number Jones has never reached.

I have my issues with Cousins, but he is light years better than Daniel Jones, and anyone arguing that simply doesn't know football.
Since Jones was drafted in 2019  
Go Terps : 6/18/2024 12:57 pm : link
You know this data is easily accessible, right?

RE: The guy has never raised anyone's level of play  
Toth029 : 6/18/2024 12:58 pm : link
In comment 16538818 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
...in fact, OL guys like Feliciano and Hernandez leave here and all of the sudden look competent.

Engram leaves here and all of the sudden no more drops.

Barkley never came close to what he was when Eli was his QB. Yes, injuries, but he was healthy in 2022 and his receiving was way down. Plus maybe his blitz pickup might have something to do with Jones not recognizing where the blitz is coming from?

I hope I eat crow but all evidence points to the guy just not being good at football.


Feliciano played half the snaps in SF (48%) to what he did in NYG (97%). Not to mention the scheme and players around him on the line. He wasn't even bad in New York and wanted to return. This is Daniel's fault? Weird man.

Hernandez hasn't been much better in Zona. His PFF ratings have been mid 60's or lower. Low bar, I guess?

Evan Engram caused six INTs in 2020 and had 11 drops altogether. He had 7 last year and an ADOT of 5 yards. Lots of dump offs. Not to mention his YPG still wasn't higher than it was in 2019 - a Jones year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Kirk Cousins?  
section125 : 6/18/2024 1:02 pm : link
In comment 16538965 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 16538896 section125 said:


Quote:




Who is not that much better, really.



See, this is why many think the DJFC have lost their damn minds.



This why idiots permeate BBI. I want Jones gone and have for quite awhile. But if you put Jones on the Vikings and put Cousins behind the Giants offense, the numbers likely flip.

Is Cousins better? Like I said, somewhat.
You know Kirk Cousins  
JT039 : 6/18/2024 1:04 pm : link
Is a highly paid AB who hasn’t won shit, right?

In fact - he couldn’t even beat the Giants at home on which you called one of the worst playoff teams ever.
RE: When it comes to FA QBs,  
lax counsel : 6/18/2024 1:09 pm : link
In comment 16538914 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Cousins is about as good as it's going to get. You think Mahomes is going to hit unrestricted FA?

To those who think Jones will be gone... who's the alternative?


This is exactly where I am. The time to replace Jones was this offseason. I think the Giants have enough talent to play themselves out of a 1-3 draft pick in 2025. That is likely the spot required to get a top qb prospect in 25. I think Jones is back in 25.
RE: RE: Who replaces Jones in 2025?  
Mike from Ohio : 6/18/2024 1:12 pm : link
In comment 16538960 JT039 said:
Quote:
In comment 16538952 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


If you want to draft a rookie, is there someone as good as Drake Maye coming out who will be easier/cheaper for the Giants to get? If the only first round QBs coming out are the JJ/Penix/Nix range, why would the Giants take one this year?

UFA is going to find you average QBs with inflated salaries - like Cousins or Dak. No team is trading a young, promising QB for anything the Giants can offer?

The Giants clearly think Jones is a good QB. Given that, which of the above options do you think they would choose over him in 2025?

If Jones is able to play in 2025 he will almost certainly be doing it as the starter for the Giants. They are open to upgrading, but it is not seen as a necessity.




There is one option out there and I understand there might be less than 0% chance of it happening. But stranger things happen.

What if Buffalo implodes this year? Can they possibly be dumb enough to put Allen on the market for say 3 first rounders plus whatever.

Just spitballin.


I don't understand why the Bills would do that deal. You don't trade an elite QB in the prime of his career for draft picks. They don't get closer to knocking off the Chiefs by hoping they can package 3 first round picks together in the hopes of finding someone as good as the guy they just traded.
RE: ...  
Eric on Li : 6/18/2024 1:22 pm : link
In comment 16538936 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16538843 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


if they can get someone they like better, they will do it.
if they cant, jones will be back.


The complicating variable is timing. The Giants have to make a down payment on Jones a month before the draft on March 5. Unlike this year, where 2024 Jones was already paid for, the payment structure for 2025 Jones isn't predetermined.

Now maybe they pay the 12M as insurance and proceed into UFA/trade/draft season, and that's a fair alternative.

In terms of the like factor, I don't think that's a binary scenario. The Giants can like a player in the draft and select him and rationalize keeping Jones on a 1/30M bridge deal.

In fact that scenario is probably the most similar to the scenarios you've described with both Smith/Mahomes and Smith/Kaepernick.

I know OTC is projecting the cap at 260 for 2025 right now, but I don't think that holds. I think that's an extraordinary conservative estimate that the cap only increase 5M YoY. My guess is the cap is closer to 275 for 2025. On a 275M cap, Jones would be 15% of the cap. Not great, but tolerable for continuity.


completely agree - if jones performs in line with his career averages, which i generally consider a most likely scenario for any player - it is possible they decide to keep him as insurance even if they also decide they need to upgrade. Unless you have a #1/2 overall pick the draft is never a guarantee that you will get the guy you want 2 months ahead of time when most big cap decisions are made.

if he performs to his career averages and stays healthy, he also likely has positive trade value since the trading team would take on just 1 year, $30m, just $12m guaranteed $, 2nd year option. At age 28 he'd be same age Mayfield was this past offseason when he got a richer deal than that, so in a higher cap it's possible there's value there. his cap # from a team trading for him could easily be lowered below $20m.

i think all of the above were things they considered when they extended him and structured the 3rd year the way they did in the first place. as we have said, by their actions they liked him a lot when they extended him and appear to still like him even after the ACL. That 'like' can be valued by a contract that over time has ranked somewhere between #10-15. the path to his contract exceeding $40m aav was by ranking top 5/10 in the statistical categories everyone routinely cites as things he needs to do (and/or winning enough to get to playoffs). I think it's probably fair to assume they saw Maye as a potential top 5-10 QB but didn't see that in JJM/Penix/Nix.
If all he has done before has not been enough  
HardTruth : 6/18/2024 1:28 pm : link
What makes anyone think another season like it will do the trick?

Jones put up a historically bad 2 TDs to 6 ints, took 2 injuries and went 1-5 only putting up an offensive TD in one half of one game and was outperformed in basically the same anount of pass attempts in passing TDs, passing yards and iNTs by an undrafted rookie and a journeyman backup . He threw as many TDs to the opposition as he did to his team.

Yet this organization didn’t see fit to draft a single QB in a draft their owner acknowledged as one if the best QBs drafts in years

Not only that they replaced tbe journeyman backup with a worse journeyman backup

So no I really dont think there is a chance he wont be here in 2025.
RE: You know Kirk Cousins  
HardTruth : 6/18/2024 1:30 pm : link
In comment 16538982 JT039 said:
Quote:
Is a highly paid AB who hasn’t won shit, right?

In fact - he couldn’t even beat the Giants at home on which you called one of the worst playoff teams ever.


What has Jones won?
RE: RE: You know Kirk Cousins  
JT039 : 6/18/2024 1:32 pm : link
In comment 16539000 HardTruth said:
Quote:
In comment 16538982 JT039 said:


Quote:


Is a highly paid AB who hasn’t won shit, right?

In fact - he couldn’t even beat the Giants at home on which you called one of the worst playoff teams ever.



What has Jones won?


I am talking about Cousins. Keep up. Not everything is about Jones. But your obsession for him is quite impressive.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Kirk Cousins?  
The Mike : 6/18/2024 1:36 pm : link
In comment 16538965 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 16538896 section125 said:


Quote:




Who is not that much better, really.



See, this is why many think the DJFC have lost their damn minds.

Kirk Cousins has played 8 full seasons, in 7 of them, he's thrown for over 4,000 yards, and in the 8th, almost 3,700 yards - totals Jones HAS NEVER REACHED!

In 8 full seasons, Cousins has thrown for at least 25 TD's, again, a number that Jones has never reached, and only came close once. He has never in his career averaged under 7.1 YPA, again, a number Jones has never reached.

I have my issues with Cousins, but he is light years better than Daniel Jones, and anyone arguing that simply doesn't know football.


Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins are already ranked among the top twenty quarterbacks to have ever played the position in terms of passing yards, touchdown passes and passer rating. And they will both likely have multiple years ahead of very strong production. Daniel Jones is probably the worst quarterback to have ever played the position in NFL history given the number of games started and passes attempted. My guess is, he will remove any doubt as to this ignominious achievement in the year(s) ahead.

The idea that people have compared him to players like Cousins and Wilson has been comical over the past five years. Now it is beyond sad. Schoen should have absolutely signed either Cousins or Wilson this past off season and cut DJ. Carrying on with this charade is the very definition of insanity.
No one has compared  
JT039 : 6/18/2024 1:46 pm : link
The players. Reading comprehension is tough to grasp for members of the GTFC.
RE: No one has compared  
uther99 : 6/18/2024 1:49 pm : link
In comment 16539019 JT039 said:
Quote:
The players. Reading comprehension is tough to grasp for members of the GTFC.


A poster said Cousins "is not that much better, really." That is a comparison
RE: No one has compared  
Scooter185 : 6/18/2024 1:50 pm : link
In comment 16539019 JT039 said:
Quote:
The players. Reading comprehension is tough to grasp for members of the GTFC.


Except Section125s post.

And your reply agreeing cousins is better than Jones.

But no, no one in this thread compared them
HTF did Kirk Cousins get into this conversation.  
MOOPS : 6/18/2024 1:51 pm : link
He's 36 in 2 months, he's coming off an achilles tear and he just signed a contract that guarantees him $90M.
We gonna get some kind of Big Apple discount?
Money grow on trees around here?
RE: HTF did Kirk Cousins get into this conversation.  
JT039 : 6/18/2024 1:56 pm : link
In comment 16539026 MOOPS said:
Quote:
He's 36 in 2 months, he's coming off an achilles tear and he just signed a contract that guarantees him $90M.
We gonna get some kind of Big Apple discount?
Money grow on trees around here?


Go Terps throwing shit to the wall.
RE: RE: HTF did Kirk Cousins get into this conversation.  
JT039 : 6/18/2024 2:00 pm : link
In comment 16539032 JT039 said:
Quote:
In comment 16539026 MOOPS said:


Quote:


He's 36 in 2 months, he's coming off an achilles tear and he just signed a contract that guarantees him $90M.
We gonna get some kind of Big Apple discount?
Money grow on trees around here?



Go Terps throwing shit to the wall.


Along with his fan club.

Signing Cousins to a contract like that would be the worst signing of the offseason.
RE: No one has compared  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/18/2024 2:05 pm : link
In comment 16539019 JT039 said:
Quote:
The players. Reading comprehension is tough to grasp for members of the GTFC.

You did, didn't you?

In comment 16538873 JT039 said:
Quote:
Jesus. Falcons think so highly of him - they drafted his replacement already.

What has cousins won by the way???


In comment 16538893 JT039 said:
Quote:
In comment 16538880 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 16538873 JT039 said:


Quote:


Jesus. Falcons think so highly of him - they drafted his replacement already.

What has cousins won by the way???



I agree. And, still, he is a much better quarterback than Jones.



Yes, he definitely is. But when we upgrade from Jones - the last thing we need is a mid 30s QB who has never won.


In comment 16538917 JT039 said:
Quote:
Cousins never sniffs a SB. So signing him would have been a horrific move.

Much like trading for Russell Wilson from a few years ago or drafting Malik Willis 5th overall.


In comment 16538982 JT039 said:
Quote:
Is a highly paid AB who hasn’t won shit, right?

In fact - he couldn’t even beat the Giants at home on which you called one of the worst playoff teams ever.


In comment 16539003 JT039 said:
Quote:
In comment 16539000 HardTruth said:


Quote:


In comment 16538982 JT039 said:


Quote:


Is a highly paid AB who hasn’t won shit, right?

In fact - he couldn’t even beat the Giants at home on which you called one of the worst playoff teams ever.



What has Jones won?



I am talking about Cousins. Keep up. Not everything is about Jones. But your obsession for him is quite impressive.


I think maybe you don't know what "compare" means.
RE: RE: HTF did Kirk Cousins get into this conversation.  
The Mike : 6/18/2024 2:08 pm : link
In comment 16539032 JT039 said:
Quote:
In comment 16539026 MOOPS said:


Quote:


He's 36 in 2 months, he's coming off an achilles tear and he just signed a contract that guarantees him $90M.
We gonna get some kind of Big Apple discount?
Money grow on trees around here?



Go Terps throwing shit to the wall.


Those are known as "facts". Something you are obviously not familiar with.
This really isn't hard  
David B. : 6/18/2024 2:08 pm : link
For Jones to not return will take the Giants acquiring someone THEY feel is a clear upgrade/better option at QB.

It's really that simple. And it's the same policy for every NFL team that doesn't currently have a top 5 QB. Doesn't matter who's on the roster or what the circumstances are, if you can get a better QB, you do it.

Maybe they land Prescott or trade for Cousins. IF the Giants feel those guys are upgrades, Jones would be gone.

But unless Jones is truly horrid, the Giants are not just going to dump him and ride Drew Lock without having Jones' true replacement in the building.

Thus, if Jones is serviceable or better this year, and the Giants can't sign a better QB, Jones will be back.

Even if the Giants are terrible and draft a QB with a high pick, Jones might still be back to hold the fort for however long it takes for the rookie to play.

And oh yeah. Jones would also have to stay healthy (to not return). If his injury clause kicks in, they're going to be paying him $30M regardless. That might keep him a Giants backup next year even if they find a better starter.
RE: RE: RE: Nothing less than  
kickoff : 6/18/2024 2:11 pm : link
In comment 16538788 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 16538778 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 16538776 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


A long playoff run.



You think the Giants will cut Jones if he doesn't have a long playoff run? That doesn't make much sense financially.



If he plays well (4000 yards, 30+ total TDs) and has a long playoff run, let’s say to the Conference championship game, it will be hard to release him. But we both know that won’t happen.


With the season you posted, you say it would be hard to release him. Why the hell would you even contemplate releasing him, that's an elite performance.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Nothing less than  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/18/2024 2:17 pm : link
In comment 16539046 kickoff said:
Quote:
In comment 16538788 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 16538778 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 16538776 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


A long playoff run.



You think the Giants will cut Jones if he doesn't have a long playoff run? That doesn't make much sense financially.



If he plays well (4000 yards, 30+ total TDs) and has a long playoff run, let’s say to the Conference championship game, it will be hard to release him. But we both know that won’t happen.



With the season you posted, you say it would be hard to release him. Why the hell would you even contemplate releasing him, that's an elite performance.

Which is why it would be hard to release him.
Wins  
Paulie Walnuts : 6/18/2024 2:17 pm : link
Is the only stats that matter
RE: This really isn't hard  
Blue The Dog : 6/18/2024 2:18 pm : link
In comment 16539041 David B. said:
Quote:
For Jones to not return will take the Giants acquiring someone THEY feel is a clear upgrade/better option at QB.

It's really that simple. And it's the same policy for every NFL team that doesn't currently have a top 5 QB. Doesn't matter who's on the roster or what the circumstances are, if you can get a better QB, you do it.

Maybe they land Prescott or trade for Cousins. IF the Giants feel those guys are upgrades, Jones would be gone.

But unless Jones is truly horrid, the Giants are not just going to dump him and ride Drew Lock without having Jones' true replacement in the building.

Thus, if Jones is serviceable or better this year, and the Giants can't sign a better QB, Jones will be back.

Even if the Giants are terrible and draft a QB with a high pick, Jones might still be back to hold the fort for however long it takes for the rookie to play.

And oh yeah. Jones would also have to stay healthy (to not return). If his injury clause kicks in, they're going to be paying him $30M regardless. That might keep him a Giants backup next year even if they find a better starter.


It's not quite that simple. You also need to account for cost. If they feel like they can find similar production or even slightly worse, but at a fraction of the cost, they can and should do it. If he plays mediocre, he should be replaced because you can get mediocre production for a lot less than 30 million.

Now I don't believe that's how they will operate because they have shown zero signs that they evaluate the QB position with anything other than emotion
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Kirk Cousins?  
rsjem1979 : 6/18/2024 2:19 pm : link
In comment 16538980 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16538965 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 16538896 section125 said:


Quote:




Who is not that much better, really.



See, this is why many think the DJFC have lost their damn minds.





This why idiots permeate BBI. I want Jones gone and have for quite awhile. But if you put Jones on the Vikings and put Cousins behind the Giants offense, the numbers likely flip.



Are we sure about that?

What if we put Jones on Washington in 2017, does he throw 27 TDs to the likes of Jamison Crowder, Ryan Grant, Josh Doctson and Vernon Davis at the tail end of his career?

Lol  
Thegratefulhead : 6/18/2024 2:19 pm : link
Another dumb ass troll post. Fuck man, how small do you have to be to start the same argument every other day. Cheers
RE: RE: RE: HTF did Kirk Cousins get into this conversation.  
JT039 : 6/18/2024 2:26 pm : link
In comment 16539040 The Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 16539032 JT039 said:


Quote:


In comment 16539026 MOOPS said:


Quote:


He's 36 in 2 months, he's coming off an achilles tear and he just signed a contract that guarantees him $90M.
We gonna get some kind of Big Apple discount?
Money grow on trees around here?



Go Terps throwing shit to the wall.



Those are known as "facts". Something you are obviously not familiar with.


What MOOPS - yes they are. Which I agree with and you seem to can’t understand.

It’s not it time for you to quit on the Giants again like you have admittedly done before?
in life  
djm : 6/18/2024 2:43 pm : link
timing is everything.

Jones isn't here anymore if he doesn't have a good 2022 season. HE's here now because despite the bad 23 season he signed long term prior to week 1. He was here after 2021 because he was a cheap cost controlled player.

Follow the money. Don't over think it. Teams rarely if ever cut cheap QBs even if they are struggling unless they feel the player isn't going to improve. See Niners with Trey Lance. Niners roster was stacked. The team was ready to win with just about anyone behind center. As long as you didn't get in the way (hello Jimmy G) you could hold the job. Lance couldn't do it, hence he was cut.

If Jones falls apart in 23 I would think the timing would be right for a release or a dramatic pay cut/team friendly restructure. Timing matters.
You mean more of a disaster than 2023  
jc in c-ville : 6/18/2024 2:49 pm : link
God Bless our mental health!!!
RE: The guy has never raised anyone's level of play  
djm : 6/18/2024 2:51 pm : link
In comment 16538818 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
...in fact, OL guys like Feliciano and Hernandez leave here and all of the sudden look competent.

Engram leaves here and all of the sudden no more drops.

Barkley never came close to what he was when Eli was his QB. Yes, injuries, but he was healthy in 2022 and his receiving was way down. Plus maybe his blitz pickup might have something to do with Jones not recognizing where the blitz is coming from?

I hope I eat crow but all evidence points to the guy just not being good at football.


Right. It was DJ's fault that Evan Engram dropped passes right in his hands and we all know that guys like Isiah Hodgins were better players before coming here. No way in hell was the HC to blame for Engram or god forbid we just chalk it up to Engram maturing as a player after leaving NYG. Blame Jones...And Jones causes OL breakdowns....cmon!

PS, Hodgins was on a PS before coming here. And then he ended 2022 as a household name with approx 40 catches and 5-6 TDs in like 10 games. Isiah. Fucking. Hodgins.

I don't know why we need to exaggerate to make a point around here but ok....
RE: RE: The guy has never raised anyone's level of play  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/18/2024 2:55 pm : link
In comment 16539076 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 16538818 sb from NYT Forum said:


Quote:


...in fact, OL guys like Feliciano and Hernandez leave here and all of the sudden look competent.

Engram leaves here and all of the sudden no more drops.

Barkley never came close to what he was when Eli was his QB. Yes, injuries, but he was healthy in 2022 and his receiving was way down. Plus maybe his blitz pickup might have something to do with Jones not recognizing where the blitz is coming from?

I hope I eat crow but all evidence points to the guy just not being good at football.



Right. It was DJ's fault that Evan Engram dropped passes right in his hands and we all know that guys like Isiah Hodgins were better players before coming here. No way in hell was the HC to blame for Engram or god forbid we just chalk it up to Engram maturing as a player after leaving NYG. Blame Jones...And Jones causes OL breakdowns....cmon!

PS, Hodgins was on a PS before coming here. And then he ended 2022 as a household name with approx 40 catches and 5-6 TDs in like 10 games. Isiah. Fucking. Hodgins.

I don't know why we need to exaggerate to make a point around here but ok....

The irony of referring to Isaiah Hodgins as a "household name" before admonishing your fellow posters about exaggeration is off the charts, even for you.
It's amazing how far down the rabbit hole we are with this loser  
Jerry in_DC : 6/18/2024 3:00 pm : link
The guys who hate him are convinced he'll be here forever

The guys who love him are convinced he'll be gone next year

Wild, unprecedented stuff. Hes among the most boring, anonymous journeyman QB who's ever played and he continues to warp the minds of owners and fans alike.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Kirk Cousins?  
Section331 : 6/18/2024 3:05 pm : link
In comment 16538980 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16538965 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 16538896 section125 said:


Quote:




Who is not that much better, really.



See, this is why many think the DJFC have lost their damn minds.





This why idiots permeate BBI. I want Jones gone and have for quite awhile. But if you put Jones on the Vikings and put Cousins behind the Giants offense, the numbers likely flip.

Is Cousins better? Like I said, somewhat.


He is not "somewhat" better, he is CLEARLY better. His worst season is far better than Jones's best. Top 10 in yards and TD's 8 out of 9 full seasons.
RE: No one has compared  
Section331 : 6/18/2024 3:07 pm : link
In comment 16539019 JT039 said:
Quote:
The players. Reading comprehension is tough to grasp for members of the GTFC.


Maybe you should look up "reading comprehension", because it's clearly eluding you.
RE: It's amazing how far down the rabbit hole we are with this loser  
Mbavaro : 6/18/2024 3:07 pm : link
In comment 16539080 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
The guys who hate him are convinced he'll be here forever

The guys who love him are convinced he'll be gone next year

Wild, unprecedented stuff. Hes among the most boring, anonymous journeyman QB who's ever played and he continues to warp the minds of owners and fans alike.



He’s not a great QB and many of us want to move on, but no need to make it personal with the guy….geez
RE: RE: RE: RE: People assume he's here for good because they didn't draft JJM  
BlueVinnie : 6/18/2024 3:15 pm : link
In comment 16538951 Scooter185 said:
Quote:


One more season of DJ already makes me want to vomit, I cannot fathom two

This...100% this.
It is so very fuckin' sad.
What other team in any other sport and at any other level, would stick with a clearly sub-par talent at the most important position - for 6, possibly 7 years?!!!
RE: RE: RE: The guy has never raised anyone's level of play  
djm : 6/18/2024 3:19 pm : link
In comment 16539077 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16539076 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 16538818 sb from NYT Forum said:


Quote:


...in fact, OL guys like Feliciano and Hernandez leave here and all of the sudden look competent.

Engram leaves here and all of the sudden no more drops.

Barkley never came close to what he was when Eli was his QB. Yes, injuries, but he was healthy in 2022 and his receiving was way down. Plus maybe his blitz pickup might have something to do with Jones not recognizing where the blitz is coming from?

I hope I eat crow but all evidence points to the guy just not being good at football.



Right. It was DJ's fault that Evan Engram dropped passes right in his hands and we all know that guys like Isiah Hodgins were better players before coming here. No way in hell was the HC to blame for Engram or god forbid we just chalk it up to Engram maturing as a player after leaving NYG. Blame Jones...And Jones causes OL breakdowns....cmon!

PS, Hodgins was on a PS before coming here. And then he ended 2022 as a household name with approx 40 catches and 5-6 TDs in like 10 games. Isiah. Fucking. Hodgins.

I don't know why we need to exaggerate to make a point around here but ok....


The irony of referring to Isaiah Hodgins as a "household name" before admonishing your fellow posters about exaggeration is off the charts, even for you.


Had you ever heard of Hodgins prior to October / November of 2022? Did you know his name by January 2023? I know I did. The guy was starting on FF teams where as 3 months prior no one knew who he was.

Household name was appropriate. I didn't say the guy was great or pro bowl caliber or even a worthy starter. But he became known as a viable NFL WR and had a great playoff game performance.

Thanks for the interest.
I am leaving this thread  
djm : 6/18/2024 3:20 pm : link
as there's a strong gust of wind forming outside and I feel like it's more productive for me to go piss into that wind. Good luck everyone.
RE: I am leaving this thread  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/18/2024 3:41 pm : link
In comment 16539099 djm said:
Quote:
as there's a strong gust of wind forming outside and I feel like it's more productive for me to go piss into that wind. Good luck everyone.

You say this on every thread. I guarantee you'll post on this one a dozen more times.
RE: ...  
gridirony : 6/18/2024 3:51 pm : link
In comment 16538798 christian said:
Quote:
All things considered (older, more wear etc.) -- let's look at what earned Jones a 2/82M commitment.

- Stayed healthy
- 9-7-1 regular season, highly efficient, average production
- One very good playoff game, one very bad playoff game

So then what's the threshold for a 1/30M commitment?
Two completely expected playoff games, based upon the level of defensive they went up against.
RE: I am leaving this thread  
Scooter185 : 6/18/2024 4:21 pm : link
In comment 16539099 djm said:
Quote:
as there's a strong gust of wind forming outside and I feel like it's more productive for me to go piss into that wind. Good luck everyone.


Don't forget to unzip
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/18/2024 4:24 pm : link
Unless he morphs into something he's never shown to be thus far in the NFL, I sure AF hope he ain't back in '25.
Play just like  
thrunthrublue : 6/18/2024 4:32 pm : link
The last 6 years.
.  
Go Terps : 6/18/2024 5:17 pm : link
So the question of "Who's the alternative to Jones?" hasn't really been answered.

The FA route isn't going to work, because a Kirk Cousins-type is about as good as it gets and some of our luminaries point out he isn't good enough.

So the draft? Well if the Giants are picking 6-10ish in a weak 2025 QB draft, why would they be more likely to pick one than they were in 2024?

Further, what are the criteria that need to be met for the Giants to draft a QB? To me this is THE question of the offseason.

If not the draft, a trade? For who?

If you think this is a contentious issue now, I think it's got a chance to be much moreso around Halloween with another season in the tank.
RE: .  
Sean : 6/18/2024 5:28 pm : link
In comment 16539154 Go Terps said:
Quote:
So the question of "Who's the alternative to Jones?" hasn't really been answered.

The FA route isn't going to work, because a Kirk Cousins-type is about as good as it gets and some of our luminaries point out he isn't good enough.

So the draft? Well if the Giants are picking 6-10ish in a weak 2025 QB draft, why would they be more likely to pick one than they were in 2024?

Further, what are the criteria that need to be met for the Giants to draft a QB? To me this is THE question of the offseason.

If not the draft, a trade? For who?

If you think this is a contentious issue now, I think it's got a chance to be much moreso around Halloween with another season in the tank.

Why did they pick one in 2019? As I think it through, 2025 feels like a repeat of 2019. Bring back Jones and use a first round pick on QB. A year after they should have just like 2018.

But, yeah I think Jones being back regardless feels more likely than not.
FFS...  
Brown_Hornet : 6/18/2024 5:42 pm : link
... The hand wringing over this guy has become pathetic.

RE: Who cares at this point?  
JCassmen : 6/18/2024 5:44 pm : link
In comment 16538811 dannyman3131 said:
Quote:
He should end up being the starter, if healthy, and with a better supporting cast have a positive season. I get that its the slow period but there should be a block on DJ threads until camp.

I for one will be rooting for him to win a bunch of games and make the playoffs so we can have a little bit of fun this season. I feel like he's become so polarizing that half of the fan base wants him to be so bad he has to be cut. That just doesn't make sense to me as a fan that buys season tickets and invests many Sundays on the team.


Agree!
RE: FFS...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/18/2024 5:50 pm : link
In comment 16539159 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
... The hand wringing over this guy has become pathetic.


It’s mid June and a lot of us think this season is probably DOA already because of the QB position. I don’t get posts like this. And if it offends you, don’t click on the post.
Sean  
Go Terps : 6/18/2024 5:51 pm : link
I think they drafted Jones because they thought they were getting an Eli clone. Big, smart, nice, boring. From a 'good family', utterly inoffensive on camera, will do the commercials with the corporate partners, etc.

Is there a guy in this draft like that? Sometime else that fits the bill as the Giants' "face of the franchise?" I don't know. If there isn't, Arch Manning is eligible for the 2026 draft.

2024 - Jones
2025 - Jones
2026 - Jones (last year of contract)/Arch reenact 2004 Warner/Eli.
RE: FFS...  
JT039 : 6/18/2024 5:54 pm : link
In comment 16539159 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
... The hand wringing over this guy has become pathetic.


Hey - Eric is providing a counseling service. A lot of posters were in dire need of it.
 
christian : 6/18/2024 5:59 pm : link
From time-to-time I see a thread about professional wrestling on BBI. Now, among my broad list of interests, professional wrestling is not one. In fact I think it's kind of stupid. Actually I think it's downright ridiculous.

When I see a thread about a thing I don't like, a thing I find ridiculous, what should I do? Should I open that and thread and post on it? Or should I just move along?

GoTerps.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/18/2024 6:00 pm : link
I think you’re spot on about the Eli clone thing. Both men from the South, both have Cutliffe connection, & hell they even look alike.

Of course I have no way to prove it, but it’s something I’ve always suspected.
Jones  
TyreeHelmet : 6/18/2024 6:01 pm : link
Injuries or a truly terrible blow up year. I think even an average year gets him year 7. Which is wild to type...
RE: GoTerps.  
Mbavaro : 6/18/2024 6:03 pm : link
In comment 16539172 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I think you’re spot on about the Eli clone thing. Both men from the South, both have Cutliffe connection, & hell they even look alike.

Of course I have no way to prove it, but it’s something I’ve always suspected.


Or maybe they had a better evaluation on him over Dwayne Haskins without all of the ancillary bull shit being involved
Mbavaro.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/18/2024 6:06 pm : link
Well, as much shit as Jones get-rightfully so IMO-he was the better option than Haskins, rest his soul.

But I do think believing that they saw a lot of Eli in Jones isn’t Jim Garrison like paranoia.
RE: Mbavaro.  
Mbavaro : 6/18/2024 6:09 pm : link
In comment 16539176 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Well, as much shit as Jones get-rightfully so IMO-he was the better option than Haskins, rest his soul.

But I do think believing that they saw a lot of Eli in Jones isn’t Jim Garrison like paranoia.


Maybe….at the same time….he was just the better choice over Haskins and certain tv personalities called them racist for doing it
RE: RE: Mbavaro.  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/18/2024 6:12 pm : link
In comment 16539179 Mbavaro said:
Quote:
Maybe….at the same time….he was just the better choice over Haskins and certain tv personalities called them racist for doing it

What does that have to do with anything? Just a grudge for you to hold onto? Honestly, who cares what certain TV personalities said at the time, and why is it relevant to bring it up in this context?
 
christian : 6/18/2024 6:12 pm : link
Jones was a perfectly fine draft pick. Just like McCarthy or Nix would have been perfectly fine picks. Drafting Jones was not a mistake.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/18/2024 6:20 pm : link
Was it Stephen A who called the Giants 'racist'? Well, I wouldn't put much stock into what Smith says.
RE: ...  
Mbavaro : 6/18/2024 6:23 pm : link
In comment 16539185 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Was it Stephen A who called the Giants 'racist'? Well, I wouldn't put much stock into what Smith says.


Yea…it was him
RE: Sean  
Sean : 6/18/2024 6:40 pm : link
In comment 16539165 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I think they drafted Jones because they thought they were getting an Eli clone. Big, smart, nice, boring. From a 'good family', utterly inoffensive on camera, will do the commercials with the corporate partners, etc.

Is there a guy in this draft like that? Sometime else that fits the bill as the Giants' "face of the franchise?" I don't know. If there isn't, Arch Manning is eligible for the 2026 draft.

2024 - Jones
2025 - Jones
2026 - Jones (last year of contract)/Arch reenact 2004 Warner/Eli.

You might be onto something here. Add in that Drake Maye fit that bill too. Looking back at the first round QB's the Giants have drafted: Morehead St, Duke, Ole Miss, Duke.
RE: RE: Sean  
Mbavaro : 6/18/2024 6:43 pm : link
In comment 16539198 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 16539165 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I think they drafted Jones because they thought they were getting an Eli clone. Big, smart, nice, boring. From a 'good family', utterly inoffensive on camera, will do the commercials with the corporate partners, etc.

Is there a guy in this draft like that? Sometime else that fits the bill as the Giants' "face of the franchise?" I don't know. If there isn't, Arch Manning is eligible for the 2026 draft.

2024 - Jones
2025 - Jones
2026 - Jones (last year of contract)/Arch reenact 2004 Warner/Eli.


You might be onto something here. Add in that Drake Maye fit that bill too. Looking back at the first round QB's the Giants have drafted: Morehead St, Duke, Ole Miss, Duke.


And who were the available options at the time of those respective picks?

RE: RE: RE: Sean  
Go Terps : 6/18/2024 7:13 pm : link
In comment 16539199And who were the available options at the time of those respective picks?
[/quote]

A better question is how do the Giants evaluate college and pro quarterbacks, and what motivated then to draft quarterbacks?

Here are the Giants' leaguewide rankings in points scored since 2012, interspersed with their QB draft picks over that period:

2012 - 6
2013 draft: Ryan Nassib, Round 4
2013 - 28
2014 - 13
2015 - 6
2016 - 26
2017 draft: Davis Webb, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 3
2017 - 31
2018 - 16
2018 draft: Kyle Lauletta, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 4
2019 - 18
2019 draft: Daniel Jones, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 1
2020 - 31
2021 - 31
2022 - 15
2023 - 30

Does this look like it tells the story of a team acting logically in the mission of winning football games?
Apologies...  
Go Terps : 6/18/2024 7:15 pm : link
Lauletta and Jones should have been listed as picks before 2018 and 2019, but you get the point.
RE: ...  
Toth029 : 6/18/2024 7:26 pm : link
In comment 16539185 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Was it Stephen A who called the Giants 'racist'? Well, I wouldn't put much stock into what Smith says.


Cris Carter was the biggest mouth in that whole scenario.

Brett Kollman blasting the Giants for not drafting Dwayne Haskins another.

Whole situation is funny looking back. The overreaction and the childish antics. Know-it-all attitude and behavior.

For all the talk of the Giants "type". Look, if the Giants had the #1 pick, Caleb Williams is their pick. It's silly.
...  
christian : 6/18/2024 7:50 pm : link
In comment 16538994 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
That 'like' can be valued by a contract that over time has ranked somewhere between #10-15. the path to his contract exceeding $40m aav was by ranking top 5/10 in the statistical categories everyone routinely cites as things he needs to do (and/or winning enough to get to playoffs).


That's a great observation.

A related but slightly different observation, around measuring "like." I think we've all collectively tortured the 2/82M number to death, when the 3/112.5 might have been the scenario to focus on.

As you know my initial thought was Team Jones not getting 3 years effectively guaranteed was a win for the Giants. That's what Prescott got (3 years of 40M), and that was my psychological expectation.

I've thought on many occasions, might it have been better for Jones to accept a lower AAV for 3 years. And my guess is functionally he did.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Sean  
HardTruth : 6/18/2024 8:54 pm : link
In comment 16539210 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16539199And who were the available options at the time of those respective picks?


A better question is how do the Giants evaluate college and pro quarterbacks, and what motivated then to draft quarterbacks?

Here are the Giants' leaguewide rankings in points scored since 2012, interspersed with their QB draft picks over that period:

2012 - 6
2013 draft: Ryan Nassib, Round 4
2013 - 28
2014 - 13
2015 - 6
2016 - 26
2017 draft: Davis Webb, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 3
2017 - 31
2018 - 16
2018 draft: Kyle Lauletta, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 4
2019 - 18
2019 draft: Daniel Jones, Senior Bowl MVP, Round 1
2020 - 31
2021 - 31
2022 - 15
2023 - 30

Does this look like it tells the story of a team acting logically in the mission of winning football games? [/quote]

The Giants are not acting logically in regard to QB and openly discuss it ie needing to “fall in love” with a QB. Love isn’t based on logic.
Bars  
Snorkels : 6/18/2024 10:02 pm : link
Christian et al: Always nice to see a Daniel Jones thread over here. Especially one with so many new and interesting insights on the topic. Too bad because it is the existential question facing the Giants this year. Unfortunately it seems that most respondents, though, have missed the point how the league operates on these matters. They don't sign or resign players because of what they did in the past; they sign for what they hope or expect that player to do in the future. And Jones is still the Giants QB because they believe that Jones has the tools to be a successful QB in the offence they want to run if given a half-way decent supporting cast which he's never had with the Giants.

At the same time, though, guys like Schoen and Daboll also aren't stupid; they want to win big just like all of us and know that average at QB likely isn't going to get you there and my guess is that what they want to see from Jones this fall is the ability to play at a pretty high level and if not I'm pretty sure they'll be moving on. Time will tell!
 
christian : 6/19/2024 7:59 am : link
I'm not surprised whose head a nuanced thread about contract economics went over.

The point is the third year in his deal allows for a considerable amount of wiggle room in the cost/benefit measurements.
RE: …  
Snorkels : 6/19/2024 9:33 am : link
In comment 16539457 christian said:
Quote:
I'm not surprised whose head a nuanced thread about contract economics went over.

The point is the third year in his deal allows for a considerable amount of wiggle room in the cost/benefit measurements.


Wow! A nuanced thread on BBI; I must have missed that! The thing is the Giants aren't going to make their decision based on money and cap considerations. If they believe that Jones is the answer at QB they'll pay him. That's what NFL teams do. If they don't they'll start the process of moving on.
...  
christian : 6/19/2024 10:08 am : link
In comment 16539508 Snorkels said:
Quote:
If they believe that Jones is the answer at QB they'll pay him. That's what NFL teams do. If they don't they'll start the process of moving on.

Unsurprisingly, the nuance goes over your head again. Because of the timing and construction of the contract, it's not necessarily a binary choice.

They may very well be in a position where they both have to pay and start the process of moving on from him.

This is the same situation they were in with Manning in 2019. His roster bonus was due before the draft at the start of the league year. One third of his new cash compensation was paid before the draft (almost exactly what the Giants owe Jones on March 5).

You contribute more with your "let it play out" decrees than when you actually try and delve into outcomes. Just stick with that.
RE: ...  
Snorkels : 6/19/2024 10:40 am : link
In comment 16539538 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16539508 Snorkels said:


Quote:


If they believe that Jones is the answer at QB they'll pay him. That's what NFL teams do. If they don't they'll start the process of moving on.


Unsurprisingly, the nuance goes over your head again. Because of the timing and construction of the contract, it's not necessarily a binary choice.

They may very well be in a position where they both have to pay and start the process of moving on from him.

This is the same situation they were in with Manning in 2019. His roster bonus was due before the draft at the start of the league year. One third of his new cash compensation was paid before the draft (almost exactly what the Giants owe Jones on March 5).

You contribute more with your "let it play out" decrees than when you actually try and delve into outcomes. Just stick with that.


If I read your analysis correctly the scenario you describe only would come into play if Jones can't pass a physical prior to the start of the football year. And for him to work as a bridge they'd want to have some guarantees that he'd be healthy by the fall to work as a bridge.
 
christian : 6/19/2024 11:02 am : link
Well you read the analysis wrong.

12M of his 30.5M 2024 salary is guaranteed March 5 (regardless of his health) which is both before the draft and free agency begins. They have to make that decision before they can draft, sign, or trade for another quarterback.

If he cannot pass a physical that same day, that 12M increases to 23M.

These stage gates in the contract before the league milestones are there by design, and to Jones's advantage. They force the Giants hand before they have all the information and options.

Imagine a scenario where they effectively "pay" either the 12M or 23M to keep their options open. Then the decision becomes is it worth to keep a healthy Jones For +18M or a recovering Jones for +7M.

Again, the question we're debating is what would it take for the Giants to not want Jones at a fair rate to be at a minimum a bridge.
RE: …  
Sean : 6/19/2024 11:26 am : link
In comment 16539585 christian said:
Quote:
Well you read the analysis wrong.

12M of his 30.5M 2024 salary is guaranteed March 5 (regardless of his health) which is both before the draft and free agency begins. They have to make that decision before they can draft, sign, or trade for another quarterback.

If he cannot pass a physical that same day, that 12M increases to 23M.

These stage gates in the contract before the league milestones are there by design, and to Jones's advantage. They force the Giants hand before they have all the information and options.

Imagine a scenario where they effectively "pay" either the 12M or 23M to keep their options open. Then the decision becomes is it worth to keep a healthy Jones For +18M or a recovering Jones for +7M.

Again, the question we're debating is what would it take for the Giants to not want Jones at a fair rate to be at a minimum a bridge.

I think you are right christian. Unless the season is an absolute disaster, there's a good chance Jones is the bridge here for 2025. They've already done this in 2019. And, we just saw the Falcons pay Cousins just to draft Penix 8th overall.

I could see a scenario quite easily where the Giants bring back Jones at his salary while drafting a QB within the top 2 rounds in the draft.
RE: …  
Snorkels : 6/19/2024 11:36 am : link
In comment 16539585 christian said:
Quote:
Well you read the analysis wrong.

12M of his 30.5M 2024 salary is guaranteed March 5 (regardless of his health) which is both before the draft and free agency begins. They have to make that decision before they can draft, sign, or trade for another quarterback.

If he cannot pass a physical that same day, that 12M increases to 23M.

These stage gates in the contract before the league milestones are there by design, and to Jones's advantage. They force the Giants hand before they have all the information and options.

Imagine a scenario where they effectively "pay" either the 12M or 23M to keep their options open. Then the decision becomes is it worth to keep a healthy Jones For +18M or a recovering Jones for +7M.

Again, the question we're debating is what would it take for the Giants to not want Jones at a fair rate to be at a minimum a bridge.


I think you've maybe got yourself really deep into the weeds here. The fact is that the Giants are going to pretty much know whether Jones is their guy going forward or not by March 5th. They are also going to have a pretty good idea what their options are in both the 2025 draft and free agency. And at that point whether they want to keep Jones around as a bridge is almost besides the point. The one thing that would complicate the issue obviously is if Jones in fact can't pass the physical, but that almost becomes one of those things worst-case scenarios that you deal with when they happen.
What is a 'fair' rate?  
fkap : 6/19/2024 11:49 am : link
Pretty much every DJ thread, the vocal majority would have us believe he's a bottom dwelling QB who has reached his ceiling. The kind of QB that should be put in the rear view mirror, or on the bench.

His current contract is not 'fair' value IF those people are close to the truth.

Aside from a scant few people who think he's top tier, there are those who think he's middle of the pack, but only with generosity is he near the top of the middle. IMO, that is still a QB who needs to be in the rearview mirror.

His contract still isn't 'fair', but it isn't outrageous.

Bridge QB's don't cost 30-40 mil. They're in the 5-15 range.

Win-Loss isn't as important as DJ showing his play is still getting better. IMO, that's what got him the contract, off a decent, not stellar, year. His trajectory was supposed to continue upward. It dropped to rock bottom, with poor play and 2 more serious injuries.

Another year of mediocrity, especially if coupled with more games lost to injury, is not going to cut it. Borderline toss-up. The lower the level of mediocrity, the less likely his return.

But, this conversation is WAAAAAAY too early. The time to have it is November, at the earliest. He could be injured, or benched, or the rest of the team could look awful, again.
...  
christian : 6/19/2024 12:04 pm : link
In comment 16539600 Snorkels said:
Quote:
They are also going to have a pretty good idea what their options are in both the 2025 draft and free agency.


Teams don't make a decision on a quarterback based on "having a pretty good idea what their options are." Do you think on March 5th 2024 the Giants had finalized their draft POV?

But regardless, that's not the point of the thread. The point of the thread is what would Jones need to show them to be unequivocally out of the race by March 5th.

RE: What is a 'fair' rate?  
christian : 6/19/2024 12:08 pm : link
In comment 16539611 fkap said:
Quote:
But, this conversation is WAAAAAAY too early. The time to have it is November, at the earliest. He could be injured, or benched, or the rest of the team could look awful, again.


In the event you've lost track of how to move along from threads you don't want to participate in, I've highlighted in red the back button conveniently located in the top left-hand corner of your browser.

It is way too early  
Snorkels : 6/19/2024 12:37 pm : link
It IS way too early for this kind of discussion. Christian, what you have done is pulled up one possible scenario out of what is likely a gazillion possible scenarios which could or could not happen. And yes the Giants will almost absolutely know what they want to do with Jones on M5th. Obviously they won't know for sure what their other options are going to be at the position but they will have a 'pretty good idea' unless they aren't paying attention.
RE: It is way too early  
christian : 6/19/2024 12:52 pm : link
In comment 16539663 Snorkels said:
Quote:
It IS way too early for this kind of discussion.

And yet here you are discussing it.

You've never really addressed this question, and I am just dying to know the answer. I beg this of you. When you engage in conversations you don't want to be in, this is like the result of a spell or forced behavior?

Have you been kidnapped? Maybe by a witch? Should we call for help?
RE: RE: It is way too early  
Snorkels : 6/19/2024 1:01 pm : link
In comment 16539677 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16539663 Snorkels said:


Quote:


It IS way too early for this kind of discussion.


And yet here you are discussing it.

You've never really addressed this question, and I am just dying to know the answer. I beg this of you. When you engage in conversations you don't want to be in, this is like the result of a spell or forced behavior?

Have you been kidnapped? Maybe by a witch? Should we call for help?


Maybe because I feel like the adult in the room and would like to see the discussion come back to you know like reality. Maybe the bigger question is why do you feel the need to continue to start threads that are best monumentally premature or at worst kind of stupid, irrelevant and inconsequential.
...  
christian : 6/19/2024 1:08 pm : link
In comment 16539685 Snorkels said:
Quote:
Maybe because I feel like the adult in the room and would like to see the discussion come back to you know like reality. Maybe the bigger question is why do you feel the need to continue to start threads that are best monumentally premature or at worst kind of stupid, irrelevant and inconsequential.

So, it's not kidnapping or witchcraft, it's thread policing, got it.

How about this, and I'll throw in a tootsie pop for you if you can be a good little boy. In the second column you'll see a label that says "Started By."

If you see the handle christian, just go ahead and skip. This way you don't accidentally find yourself participating in discussions you don't want to be in.

RE: RE: RE: It is way too early  
Scooter185 : 6/19/2024 1:14 pm : link
In comment 16539685 Snorkels said:
Quote:
In comment 16539677 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 16539663 Snorkels said:


Quote:


It IS way too early for this kind of discussion.


And yet here you are discussing it.

You've never really addressed this question, and I am just dying to know the answer. I beg this of you. When you engage in conversations you don't want to be in, this is like the result of a spell or forced behavior?

Have you been kidnapped? Maybe by a witch? Should we call for help?



Maybe because I feel like the adult in the room and would like to see the discussion come back to you know like reality. Maybe the bigger question is why do you feel the need to continue to start threads that are best monumentally premature or at worst kind of stupid, irrelevant and inconsequential.



I must have missed when Eric made you arbiter of what should be discussed here on BBI. If you don't like the threads Christian posts, ignore them and start your own.
...  
christian : 6/19/2024 1:21 pm : link
In comment 16539697 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
Have you been kidnapped? Maybe by a witch? Should we call for help?

Maybe because I feel like the adult in the room and would like to see the discussion come back to you know like reality. Maybe the bigger question is why do you feel the need to continue to start threads that are best monumentally premature or at worst kind of stupid, irrelevant and inconsequential.

I must have missed when Eric made you arbiter of what should be discussed here on BBI. If you don't like the threads Christian posts, ignore them and start your own.


It's a deeply weird behavior I just don't get.

It's like walking into a store and letting the clerk know you don't like what the sell and won't be buying it.

I imagine it stems from some kind of weird need to control others. The payoff from controlling me, some random dude on the internet who is chatting about football, must be very rewarding.
RE: Look at it this way  
DefenseWins : 6/19/2024 6:08 pm : link
In comment 16538860 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Jones's 2023 could not have gone worse on the field:

1. Rumors of neck issues impacting his throwing motion
2. He tore his ACL
3. When he played he was horrendous
4. Taylor and DeVito made him look like the third best QB on the team

And yet, after an offseason that saw Kirk Cousins become an FA and one of the strongest QB draft classes in years, Jones is here.

Next year's FA class probably won't have a Cousins in it, the draft class is expected to be weaker, and Jones is going to cost less.

So why would the Giants not bring him back in 2025?


Wrong on Cousins. The Falcons drafted their future QB this year. Cousins is their starter and will help with the training wheels for the new kid. Cousins is not going to sit the bench next year so he will leave for a starting job.

Next is Russell Wilson. He will be available and possibly before the end of this season.

RE: RE: What is a 'fair' rate?  
fkap : 6/19/2024 7:10 pm : link
In comment 16539623 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16539611 fkap said:


Quote:


But, this conversation is WAAAAAAY too early. The time to have it is November, at the earliest. He could be injured, or benched, or the rest of the team could look awful, again.



In the event you've lost track of how to move along from threads you don't want to participate in, I've highlighted in red the back button conveniently located in the top left-hand corner of your browser.


Why the snark?
I did participate.
I did not tell anyone they should, or should not, have the conversation.
I merely commented that it is too early for the conversation, after having given my views on the QB situation.
RE: RE: RE: What is a 'fair' rate?  
christian : 6/19/2024 7:28 pm : link
In comment 16539825 fkap said:
Quote:
In comment 16539623 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 16539611 fkap said:


Quote:


But, this conversation is WAAAAAAY too early. The time to have it is November, at the earliest. He could be injured, or benched, or the rest of the team could look awful, again.



In the event you've lost track of how to move along from threads you don't want to participate in, I've highlighted in red the back button conveniently located in the top left-hand corner of your browser.

Why the snark?
I did participate.
I did not tell anyone they should, or should not, have the conversation.
I merely commented that it is too early for the conversation, after having given my views on the QB situation.


I apologize, that was uncalled for.
if he performs like a mediocre qb  
hassan : 6/23/2024 12:00 pm : link
he may not be cut. it all depends on when they draft or sign an adequate competitor. That might even be lock if they get a good look at his this year.

I think they will upgrade; but i think some of you don’t understand that it’s not
always all or nothing. they are addressing a team with massive flaws; mostly trigerred by one faulty assumption after another between 2016-2021.

Jones is most likely a lower end starter. not a horrendous backup; also not a top 10 qb whose situation has failed him. Giants may strike with right pick in
25 and cut him. They may sign a free agent and move on. We don’t know.

i don’t think the op is being fair; i don’t think nyg is in full bloom love they are going to address team as makes sense.

If nyg stink this year and draft early they will almost
certainly take a qb and move on. if they are midpack they may have to figure out how to draft or acquire a competitor more creatively.’
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Kirk Cousins?  
Bear vs Shark : 6/23/2024 12:45 pm : link
In comment 16538980 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16538965 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 16538896 section125 said:


Quote:




Who is not that much better, really.



See, this is why many think the DJFC have lost their damn minds.





This why idiots permeate BBI. I want Jones gone and have for quite awhile. But if you put Jones on the Vikings and put Cousins behind the Giants offense, the numbers likely flip.

Is Cousins better? Like I said, somewhat.
lmao. No they don't. This so fucking delusional. Jones isn't remotely close to Cousins.
...  
christian : 6/23/2024 7:44 pm : link
In comment 16541444 hassan said:
Quote:
i don’t think the op is being fair; i don’t think nyg is in full bloom love they are going to address team as makes sense.

If nyg stink this year and draft early they will almost
certainly take a qb and move on. if they are midpack they may have to figure out how to draft or acquire a competitor more creatively.’


I don't they are full bloom in love with him. I think the economics make it very intriguing that they may keep him as a bridge.
He may very well  
Blueworm : 6/23/2024 8:15 pm : link
Play as the 15th best QB.

Isn't he the 12th highest paid?

Back to the Corner