Tiki or Saquan?
For me, it's TIKI all day, every day!
Some comments from link below:
- How much weight do you give to the supporting cast? Tiki had Eli, Plax, Amani, Shockey, an actual line and superior coaching. Saquon had, well, none of that.
Still, Tiki's prime was league-MVP caliber. He was unstoppable.
- For those saying Saquon (probably never saw Tiki play), please take a moment to look up what Tiki did. 7 straight seasons over 1400 combined yards. 5 straight 1000 yard rushing season, and 3 straight season of OVER 2000 combined yards.
- If they were both healthy I’d take Barkley but if we’re talking about real life I’d take Tiki
Tiki or Saquan? - (
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Lol. What? Tiki was by far the better RB.
Don't let Barber's bad behavior toward TC sway you.
Think Tiki had three years similar.
Marcus Allen and Marshall Faulk
Bullshit. Tiki did not have good OL play most of his career. Tike was an east-west runner that didn't need much to slip past defenders. Tiki was a better blocker and pass catcher. Tiki could score from any point on the field.
Only way Barkely's prime is better is if his prime is still ahead of him in Philadelphia.
Barkley wasn't a great Giant. In fact beside the enormous mistake of drafting him and the annoying unfounded proclamations of how good he was it's difficult to remember anything about him as a player.
Drafting him was one of the worst personnel decisions the Giants made in my four decades as a fan, if not the worst.
Really? No.
Barkley couldn't stay on the field. Wasn't better than Tiki catching passes and couldn't avoid big hits. We all know that Barkley lacked situational awareness.
I really don't see the debate here.
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But if you are starting a team and looking at who you could depend on to carry the team in coming years then Tiki
Really? No.
Yes really. People forget just how dynamic Barkley was his rookie season because of how quickly it soured but he did things his rookie season that I’ve only seen Sayers do. Tiki by far has the better career, but he wasn’t equal to Barkley when it comes to who’s the better more gifted runner at his peak for one afternoon.
People also forget how Tiki struggled early on and how hard he worked at becoming such a magnificent and complete runner. Tiki for career yes, but if your life was on the line and needed one game you have to go Barkley
In their prime, Tiki outperformed Barkley. Tiki had 3 seasons that statistically were better than Barkleys best.
I think if anyone thinks this is close, it's only recency bias and forget how impactful Tiki truly was.
Take one game. Who do you trust more to finish the game healthy?
Who do you trust more to make a key 3rd down conversion on a catch or run?
Who do you trust more to get 1 yard on a 3rd or 4th and 1?
My answer is Tiki on all of the above.
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In comment 16539525 steve in ky said:
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But if you are starting a team and looking at who you could depend on to carry the team in coming years then Tiki
Really? No.
Yes really. People forget just how dynamic Barkley was his rookie season because of how quickly it soured but he did things his rookie season that I’ve only seen Sayers do. Tiki by far has the better career, but he wasn’t equal to Barkley when it comes to who’s the better more gifted runner at his peak for one afternoon.
People also forget how Tiki struggled early on and how hard he worked at becoming such a magnificent and complete runner. Tiki for career yes, but if your life was on the line and needed one game you have to go Barkley
I forgot neither. Not even close. I'll take Barber. Tiki did have issues early and with fumbling. That end after year three.
Honorable mention goes to Rodney Hampton. Two pro bowls, five straight 1k+ seasons (and nearly a sixth). Guy was a workhorse on a terrible offense most of his career.
If the question is who had the best individual season, I still think it's Barber. 2004 was pound for pound his best season. That 2004 line was not the strong unit it would develop into, they had the quarterback change, and Hufnagel was in over his head.
If the question is who had the best individual season, I still think it's Barber. 2004 was pound for pound his best season. That 2004 line was not the strong unit it would develop into, they had the quarterback change, and Hufnagel was in over his head.
Tiki was excellent his last 2-3 years in the league. He could take over a game. Not a huge back by any means, but ran tough and had great instincts.
It’s hard to tell sometimes how good backs will be when they get to the NFL. Barkley for example seemed to always have big holes to run through at Penn State and his athleticism allowed him to dominate at that level. In the NFL you need that vision and instincts, to not only find the hole, but also to know when a play is over and take the yardage you can get while preserving your health. Barkley never got away from trying to hit the home run every play.
Between the two talked about on this thread it is Barber and it isn't close.
One more season at the level of production he had in the previous 5, and Tiki’s in the HOF, especially if that one season needed with a SB win. There were games where Tiki put the team on his back, many of them “must-win” games too. He may have been a bit of a dick, but he was a special player.
If you accept Barley’s one season as his prime, He is my choice, but by any other measure including being a big game player, Tiki would be my pick.
Tiki is the no brainer.
We know that answer especially since one OL had a prime that lasted about 7 years while the other OL was lucky to get prime rib.
Which back was more productive is the easy answer. It's TIKI in a landslide. Not sure Barkley doesn't rush for 10000 yards from 2000-2006 in his sleep, but we'll never know. Tiki was a wonderful player and underrated prior to 2004.
If you accept Barley’s one season as his prime, He is my choice, but by any other measure including being a big game player, Tiki would be my pick.
No he wasn't. Look at Barber's 2005 stats 1860 rushing and 530 receiving - 2390 yards. His 2004 and 2006 were right there, also.
Tiki stats - ( New Window )
Bradshaw doesn't even crack the top 5
I think Tiki was a more football savvy player once he figured out the fumbling issue.
Barkley wasn't a great Giant. In fact beside the enormous mistake of drafting him and the annoying unfounded proclamations of how good he was it's difficult to remember anything about him as a player.
Drafting him was one of the worst personnel decisions the Giants made in my four decades as a fan, if not the worst.
I agree with all this with the one caveat that SB did have one great year. If his career had continued like that he would have been a HOF RB. And still not worth the 2nd pick in the draft.
Tiki had tremendous vision and was great as a receiver.
And for the line, people need to re-look at the 2004-2005 lines again. Especially 2004. This wasn't the 2008-2010 line.
Saquon’s career is a disappointment, even without the lofty expectations.
Giants RB I would rather have in their prime than Saquon (those I’ve watched play):
Tiki
Ron Johnson
Rodney Hampton
Ahmad Bradshaw
Joe Morris
Doug Kotar
Brandon Jacobs
Could probably make an argument for a few others.
He was a returner/3rd down back primarily his first few years. And he had the fumbling issues.
Once he cleaned that up and studied the NFL game more he became elite.
If you listen to him talk about running angles, lanes, blocking, and absorbing contact it's truly next level stuff. He was such a smart player. But he wasn't always. Unlike Barkley he wasn't really a plug n play RB.
I do wonder how much of a role TC played in Tiki's growth, and Barkley's career isn't done so this is a little early, but regardless when Barkley's career is over I think it will still be Tiki.
This is just false. Tiki Barber had at least 2 seasons that were better than Saquons rookie season.
This. Tiki had an exceptional ability to set up his blocks. He would feign one direction in the backfield to fool the linebacker and run to daylight. I've never seen a back do it better.
Tiki Highlights - ( New Window )
Barkley has a name, but his production doesn't match up.
Tiki was absolutely worth it.
Was reading this thread for this comment.
This is the real difference
Tiki not only know how to follow his blockers, he would even set up blocks.
That said, I do believe Tiki had a superior OL to Barkley for most of his career
Tiki Barber is the best RB the Giants have ever had. Why is this even a question? Stop throwing names out there. Hampton was a quality RB, yes. Not as good as Barber.
Barkley was never that
Anyone who would say Barkley has to be too young to watch the other backs mentioned. Otherwise, I can't explain it.
Some here were trying to pump up the line for Tiki. Watch the games, the man was a terrific back for his mind. Unlike Saquon. The 2004 OL was hardly very good.
Barber transformed himself into a workhorse. He was underappreciated. He ranks second in career rushing yards (3,389) and single-season rushing yards (1,397); third in career all-purpose yards (4,869), single-season all-purpose yards (1,906) and single-game all-purpose yards (311); and seventh in career scoring (210) and single-season scoring (96).
And he will be 50 in April! Where does the time go?
Barkley had historically bad linemen in front of him.
Barkley had historically bad linemen in front of him.
Tiki left after 2006 - not sure he had the good line that they would put together soon. He did have part of it maybe 2005 and 2006.
Barkley had historically bad linemen in front of him.
"all-time" is beyond a stretch. Combined in Tiki's career how many pro-bowls did his OL go to? 2?
Ron Stone (2) from what I can tell.
I think that might be it during Tiki's career.
Tiki never played with the Diehl Seubert O'Hara Snee McKenzie line
His best LT was Petitgout. lol. Or maybe 100-year old Lomas Brown.
Luke Petitgout
Wayne Lucier
Chris Bober
David Diehl
Ian Allen
So....yeah
Could Barkley have been a realistic challenger as the best RB ever? I think so, but it never happened.
Hampton's career was probably tougher to achieve in terms of the Giants not having any other weapons which allowed defenses to focus on him without much threat of getting beat deep.
Tiki's was trending toward HOF had he played longer.
If I had to choose one game where Barkley and Barber were both at their best? It is really hard to not choose Barber because Barber had learned how to run in the NFL (he had to learn this and was close to being cut early in his career). While Barkley at his best (2018 imo) still had learning to do how to run at the NFL level.
Barkley came into the NFL as absolute amazing athlete (similar to Bo Jackson). Then proceeded to have an excellent rookie year which prematurely projected him as a lock to be one of the best RB's in the league.
SB didn't have the coaching (imv) and near the talent around him that Tiki had. If he did he would be an over 2k yard RB if he stayed healthy. The issues SB did have (getting the tough yds. would have been fixed sooner imv). Unfortunately, SB played behind the already long established poorer OL.
Hampton would have been great behind that 2004-08 group. When TB did retired the run game production stayed the same.
SB didn't have the coaching (imv) and near the talent around him that Tiki had. If he did he would be an over 2k yard RB if he stayed healthy. The issues SB did have (getting the tough yds. would have been fixed sooner imv). Unfortunately, SB played behind the already long established poorer OL.
Hampton would have been great behind that 2004-08 group. When TB did retired the run game production stayed the same.
Tiki had 1984 total yards in 2002 (before the offensive line fix). 2004 he had over 2000 yards total and that was still the start of the offensive line rebuild. Mckenzie would come in 2005.
We are also talking about talent. Very rarely dud you see Tiki go for a negative gain and Tiki could run a 3rd or 4th and short. Tiki also had game awareness to stay in bounds, to get out of bounds to save the clock. He also avoided the big hits that would allow him to stay on the field.
One of the most damning Saquon stats is his lack of 1st downs created. Whereas Tiki was a 1st down machine. Their top 1st down seasons...
Saquon
2018: 80 1st downs
2022: 72
2023: 67
2019: 59
Tiki
2006: 103 1st downs
2004: 102
2005: 96
2002: 95
2003: 94
2001: 70
Tiki had 5 seasons with significantly more 1st downs than Saquon's best season. It's not apples to apples as their supporting cast was different, but even taking that into account I think Tiki was just a lot better at keeping drives alive with consistent patient running vs. Barkley's HR hitting style.
Tiki's career wasn't disappointing -- at least on the field.
Note here about Ron Johnson, who is Top 5 on my all-time Giants list . His career was relatively short . I think he scored over 40 TDs and was , by far, the best receiving Giant RB. In fact I always thought he should have been a WR.
Many years ago I did a brief interview with him at the Alexander’s on Kingsbridge in the Bronx. It must have been 1976 after he called it quits during the Cowboys camp. He was making a promotional-autograph appearance . I asked him if he would have been better served moving to WR like Paul Warfield , Bobby Mitchell or Charlie Taylor . He smiled when he said , “Maybe but I did pretty good , right ?” Yes you did . R.I.P.
Always want an honorable mention to Rob Carpenter . Yeah it was basically for 1981. But that was such an important year . There would be setbacks . Another coaching change . Very neatly yet another coaching change that would have been catastrophic . A stupid quarterback decision by a great coach . But Robbie was foundational .
He did, yes. Good RB. But Tiki for 3 or 4 years was HoF level. Joes was not.
My choice - David Wilson; he was like Haley's comet, comes by every 70 years andThen dazzles, then he's gone. It was a heart-break (as I recall, he was damaged goods coming out of college).
https://www.giants.com/video/rb-david-wilson-breaks-84yd-td-10944925
Then Saquon, then all the rest.
Barkley
Ron Johnson
Tiki
Morris
Hampton
My choice - David Wilson; he was like Haley's comet, comes by every 70 years andThen dazzles, then he's gone. It was a heart-break (as I recall, he was damaged goods coming out of college).
https://www.giants.com/video/rb-david-wilson-breaks-84yd-td-10944925
Then Saquon, then all the rest.
David Wilson was an awful pick at the end of Rd 1. Not only a complete over-draft by probably 2 rounds based on his talent, but this was an awful RB draft to even invest in altogether. The NY Giants desperately needed to re-tool at LB and this draft was extremely deep at that position and we passed on every one.
The 2011 and 2012 NYG drafts were as bad as you can get. Might as well not even show up to pick players based on what happened.
Barkley
Ron Johnson
Tiki
Morris
Hampton
I don't think Prime means what you think it means
What DOES "Prime" mean ?
As far as Wilson - Maybe the Giants should have drafted a linebacker that year, but that wasn't his fault. Who knows how good he COULD have been if it wasn't for that neck injury.
https://www.tiktok.com/@bigblueunited/video/7313330787888139550
My apologies for the bad link (you may have to paste it in to your browser address window)
Wilson's story is similar to another Giants halfback of the past - Tucker Fredrickson.