Will watch on Max when they stream it, just not sure when they’ll make it available to stream.
If you're on the East Coast, probably at 9pm. I know that HotD episodes are available right when the show airs. And I think Bill Maher's show (which is live on the East Coast) is available within a few minutes of it going off the air.
Seems to have a balanced view of Jones, “mahomes would have had trouble behind this line” and “history is the best indicator of the past.” Second one in reference to jones injuries and struggles
You can see his meddling, trying to convince Schoen to tag Saquon and then says “then we’d have to draft one high”. Schoen had to convince him, what a hassle.
Schoen handled it well
“This is the year for Daniel” says Schoen of the offseason plan.
You can see his meddling, trying to convince Schoen to tag Saquon and then says “then we’d have to draft one high”. Schoen had to convince him, what a hassle.
that doesn’t want to micromanage, but does anyway. When Schoen told him Daniel makes a lot of money it sounded like that was Mara’s doing also. “Fork in the road” was an apt metaphor.
You can see his meddling, trying to convince Schoen to tag Saquon and then says “then we’d have to draft one high”. Schoen had to convince him, what a hassle.
Schoen handled it well
I knew that was gonna be the reaction to that scene, but I didn’t really think it rised to the level of meddling. I think that conversation happens in every GM office with every owner who has their favorite players.
What I found more interesting was McDonell’s concern about losing their offensive identity with Saquon. Clearly Schoen has a different vision for what NFL offense should look like/be constructed.
I found it concerning Schoen had to tell McDonell you don’t have “a $40 million a year guy hand off to a running back making $12 million”
Video. A lot of meat in there. Large portion of it was discussing Saquon, the free agent backs and how hiring Shane Bowen and incorporating his style of players into his defense fits. We do see the team look into FA early which was obviously the best decision and to let an older, oft injured player walk. Singletary isn't here to be a bellcow and I look forward to future episodes where they finally get to the draft, i.e. the Tyrone Tracy addition and how the run game becomes more about the committee.
The last nugget with Daniel Jones makes sense and what many viewed how it would unfold. 2024 was always a pivotal year for the Giants offense and Jones. He wasn't getting cut. A rookie coming in makes it about 2025. If he performs well, even, they can restructure and move money around. They can still look at future draft(s) and other pieces at the same time.
Joe Schoen to Tim McDonnell about letting Barkley walk, McDonnell was on screen a lot during the show but never identified until the very end and with no mention that he is one of the owners of the team. While he stewed and fidgeted in his seat like someone who has never been told no in life "We've got to upgrade the offensive line and you're paying the guy 40 million dollars. it's not to hand the ball off to a 12 million dollar back."
Video. A lot of meat in there. Large portion of it was discussing Saquon, the free agent backs and how hiring Shane Bowen and incorporating his style of players into his defense fits. We do see the team look into FA early which was obviously the best decision and to let an older, oft injured player walk. Singletary isn't here to be a bellcow and I look forward to future episodes where they finally get to the draft, i.e. the Tyrone Tracy addition and how the run game becomes more about the committee.
The last nugget with Daniel Jones makes sense and what many viewed how it would unfold. 2024 was always a pivotal year for the Giants offense and Jones. He wasn't getting cut. A rookie coming in makes it about 2025. If he performs well, even, they can restructure and move money around. They can still look at future draft(s) and other pieces at the same time.
My favorite moment was Daboll's comment about getting a DC who can figure out run defense.
Schoen with multiple comments about paying Jones $40M. "We aren't paying him $40M to hand it off to a $12M back."
I know the Giants had editorial control, but I get the sense that Jones is going to be asked to air it out. He'll either perform or he won't and they'll move on in 2025.
They didn’t get into the Wink stuff, not surprising. They didn’t get into the DC hiring process, which I suspect the team vetoed. We know they interviewed other people and is widely believed SB was not their top choice. Also, it’s clear Barkley is the big FA story line. Not surprising but frustrating that there’s no mention of McKinney. Maybe they’ll get to in future episodes. No mention of new Oline coach or other new coaches besides Bowen. Obviously only so much you can get into and maybe more for future episodes.
Schoen with multiple comments about paying Jones $40M. "We aren't paying him $40M to hand it off to a $12M back."
I know the Giants had editorial control, but I get the sense that Jones is going to be asked to air it out. He'll either perform or he won't and they'll move on in 2025.
That's been obvious for some time now. The OL moves are pass blockers, they drafted Nabers, they let Saquon go, they drafted a pass receiving TE.
Schoen is all in on Jones and not because of Mara. He’s looking for Hones to either justify the 40 million or not, but it seems pretty obvious Jones was always going to get this year.
It's really hard to make judgments on anything, but I do not think Schoen wanted to keep Barkley at all. He preferred to spend the money elsewhere and he thought he could get a good RB in the second wave. He was right.
And I'm not convinced that Bowen has plans for Simmons or Anderson or Basham just because their names were mentioned in clips.
Schoen is all in on Jones and not because of Mara. He’s looking for Hones to either justify the 40 million or not, but it seems pretty obvious Jones was always going to get this year.
I'm excited to see the draft talk because we will find out a lot. But maybe they will hide some information or rumors - who knows.
Maye could have very easily been a target or of heavy interest by either Schoen, Daboll or both. Drafting him signifies he's their future QB but not necessarily for 2024.
RE: Big takeaway is that NYG wasn’t serious about Drake Maye
Schoen is all in on Jones and not because of Mara. He’s looking for Hones to either justify the 40 million or not, but it seems pretty obvious Jones was always going to get this year.
We'll find out more next week. I think it confirms it was Maye or bust. But, they won't portray that in the episode.
The big takeaway to me: "We aren't paying the QB $40M to hand it off to a $12M RB." Jones will be asked to air it out this season.
that doesn’t want to micromanage, but does anyway. When Schoen told him Daniel makes a lot of money it sounded like that was Mara’s doing also. “Fork in the road” was an apt metaphor.
He's the owner. He writes the checks. The GM is accountable to him. Why shouldnt he have an ear on what is going on with the franchise he owns?
Asking about Barkley.
You Can see why we are where we are sadly.
makes perfectly good sense why they think this way. Barkley was the STAR player and the face of the franchise. The franchise is a business.. so now HOW to we pivot if that face is gone..
Imagine the Knicks if Jalen Bruson up and left in a year or two.
Thats how owners think..
Its funny but I can tell some of you guys dont work directly with the owner of a business on a day to day basis. In my job this goes on EVERY day.
RE: RE: RE: Schoen talks about “protecting themselves”
At QB and yet we’ve run it back while swapping out Taylor for Drew Lock.
I don’t see how we’ve protected ourselves much.
Well, certainly wasn’t for lack of trying, was it?
That’s certainly debatable.
________________
Two smartass reactions by part time fans who probably stopped watching when Jones went down.
Taylor clearly was not capable of being a starting QB for more than 1 or 2 games and was on the downside of his career. At least Lock is capable of starting for more than one half season and if his career is not still rising, it isn’t falling.
Abrams mara and McDonnell are just as dumb as we thought
Video. A lot of meat in there. Large portion of it was discussing Saquon, the free agent backs and how hiring Shane Bowen and incorporating his style of players into his defense fits. We do see the team look into FA early which was obviously the best decision and to let an older, oft injured player walk. Singletary isn't here to be a bellcow and I look forward to future episodes where they finally get to the draft, i.e. the Tyrone Tracy addition and how the run game becomes more about the committee.
The last nugget with Daniel Jones makes sense and what many viewed how it would unfold. 2024 was always a pivotal year for the Giants offense and Jones. He wasn't getting cut. A rookie coming in makes it about 2025. If he performs well, even, they can restructure and move money around. They can still look at future draft(s) and other pieces at the same time.
My favorite moment was Daboll's comment about getting a DC who can figure out run defense.
I found that one line, pretty intriguing, given Winks approach,
They didn’t get into the Wink stuff, not surprising. They didn’t get into the DC hiring process, which I suspect the team vetoed. We know they interviewed other people and is widely believed SB was not their top choice. Also, it’s clear Barkley is the big FA story line. Not surprising but frustrating that there’s no mention of McKinney. Maybe they’ll get to in future episodes. No mention of new Oline coach or other new coaches besides Bowen. Obviously only so much you can get into and maybe more for future episodes.
NFL Films didn't start filming till March. The few earlier clips were from Giants in-house media but weren't made for the show.
Video. A lot of meat in there. Large portion of it was discussing Saquon, the free agent backs and how hiring Shane Bowen and incorporating his style of players into his defense fits. We do see the team look into FA early which was obviously the best decision and to let an older, oft injured player walk. Singletary isn't here to be a bellcow and I look forward to future episodes where they finally get to the draft, i.e. the Tyrone Tracy addition and how the run game becomes more about the committee.
The last nugget with Daniel Jones makes sense and what many viewed how it would unfold. 2024 was always a pivotal year for the Giants offense and Jones. He wasn't getting cut. A rookie coming in makes it about 2025. If he performs well, even, they can restructure and move money around. They can still look at future draft(s) and other pieces at the same time.
My favorite moment was Daboll's comment about getting a DC who can figure out run defense.
I found that one line, pretty intriguing, given Winks approach,
Yup there was some angst in that comment from Daboll
Has no clue how major enterprises are run. There's not an owner in the NFL who wouldn't be making his feelings known at least as much as they showed -- and rightfully so. If an enterprise of similar size and complexity was public, the chief executive (eg Joe Schoen) would be going over every major decision with the board. They'd give their input - and he'd want it. And sometimes that input would be quite forceful. A skill of excellent leaders is managing up.
Video. A lot of meat in there. Large portion of it was discussing Saquon, the free agent backs and how hiring Shane Bowen and incorporating his style of players into his defense fits. We do see the team look into FA early which was obviously the best decision and to let an older, oft injured player walk. Singletary isn't here to be a bellcow and I look forward to future episodes where they finally get to the draft, i.e. the Tyrone Tracy addition and how the run game becomes more about the committee.
The last nugget with Daniel Jones makes sense and what many viewed how it would unfold. 2024 was always a pivotal year for the Giants offense and Jones. He wasn't getting cut. A rookie coming in makes it about 2025. If he performs well, even, they can restructure and move money around. They can still look at future draft(s) and other pieces at the same time.
My favorite moment was Daboll's comment about getting a DC who can figure out run defense.
Still noticing a striking lack of Ryan Cowden emphasis/involvement. And I was expecting him to step into the assistant GM role once Brandon Brown eventually gets hired away. Not so sure about that. Hoping it is not Tim McConnell.
If the Giants offense is awful and Saquon has a huge year in Philly, I could see Schoen being in some trouble.
I think Schoen commented that Barkley will be better behind an OL like they have in Detroit or Philly. Meaning, he’s worth more to them, while the Giants needed to allocate money away from RB to help fix the OL
Related note, but we’ve been “fixing” the OL for over a decade now. Fingers crossed Schoen gets it done, but they tried to last year and it was a debacle
footage, and if there was genuine interest in Maye, but this first episode re-confirms my belief all along that Schoen has always been very comfortable with Jones as his QB. And did I hear Schoen say they had a three-year plan with Jones...?
When he said that Mahomes couldn't win behind the Giants OL - I believe he may have been referencing the Miami game as an example - that probably made quite a number of posters feel good around here...
If Schoen actually considered the notion of signing and trading Barkley with the FT #2, I find it even more befuddling they didn't trade him at the deadline in 2023.
RE: Abrams mara and McDonnell are just as dumb as we thought
It’s astounding. Rossetti also did not impress me at all. Not even a little.
I thought Schoen and Hickey came across very well.
Rossetti did nail Philly as a team who would pay SB what he wants. Also, they clearly only showed him discussing the top players at specific positions. That guy makes his money finding and presenting value in the next tiers. He probably led hours of meetings reviewing options. We saw what, 5 minutes of it?
Favorite part of the episode. It was like... Shit, is that how these deals start off? I was a little bothered at first when the narrator talked about catching up with old friends at the Senior Bowl. I was thinking, "Giants are paying you to improve the team, not shoot the shit without your buddies." Apparently you can do both simultaneously.
Favorite part of the episode. It was like... Shit, is that how these deals start off? I was a little bothered at first when the narrator talked about catching up with old friends at the Senior Bowl. I was thinking, "Giants are paying you to improve the team, not shoot the shit without your buddies." Apparently you can do both simultaneously.
Correction: How about you give me 2 firsts for Brian Burns?
RE: RE: So much indecision. Mara reminds me of a boss
that doesn’t want to micromanage, but does anyway. When Schoen told him Daniel makes a lot of money it sounded like that was Mara’s doing also. “Fork in the road” was an apt metaphor.
He's the owner. He writes the checks. The GM is accountable to him. Why shouldnt he have an ear on what is going on with the franchise he owns?
I think the indication is that it seems that Schoen was pointing out Mara that the Mara was the one how pushed for the Jones contract. Schoen pointed out the same thing to McDonnell, basically "Hey, you guys want Jones at $40 million, this is what the result of that is..."
Usually when a personnel guys says CB, he means outside CB, not nickel.
Agreed. To be fair though, I think most scouts viewed Phillips as an outside guy. He lined up at nickel in the spring but I'm hoping he graduates from there...
Almost come across as, 'you wanted me to pay him, let's see him perform.'
That’s exactly how I read it too.
Schoen is systematically pulling apart the Mara idiocy.
1) Remove Barkley
2) Prove Jones can or can’t succeed. Past history says he won’t.
After 3 years Schoen will finally have his clean slate. What immense time lost. It’s sad Schoen has to play a game within a game to placate the nepotistic idiots who own the team, but not difficult to see who has kept us in this mess.
“What will our identity be if we lose Barkley”. JFC
Stuck in the 90s. Omg.
People seem very confused about this exchange. Unless you want sycophants nodding along with every one of Schoen's utterances, you need someone in the room willing to stand up and present the opposing argument.
Whether or not the fans find his point compelling couldn't be less relevant.
after 2022, but I've always thought it was obvious that both Schoen and Daboll were already as much aboard that train as anyone. From literally the first post-season press conference, they made it clear they wanted him back.
I gotta say, I came away from the first episode really
Weird quote from Mara in the segement about FA RB : “I wouldn’t commit to that, though” as Schoen finishes listing the plethora of FA RB’s who are available
They had to pay him and at the same time fix the lack of a pass rush; as it turned out, Carolina GAVE them Burns.
Disagree about Saquon, lal of them understood that they're not one "home run hitter" away from the Super Bowl. If they'd franchise tagged him, they would have had to give him money they didn't have and would have a resentful player in the locker room.
Seems like Schoen gets to call his shots, but Mara is certainly weighing in and telling him what he prefers. Mara says "I'd still like to have him back until we prove we can have a decent offense without him."
We didn't have anywhere close to a decent offense WITH him Mara. Get your head out of your ass.
footage, and if there was genuine interest in Maye, but this first episode re-confirms my belief all along that Schoen has always been very comfortable with Jones as his QB. And did I hear Schoen say they had a three-year plan with Jones...?
When he said that Mahomes couldn't win behind the Giants OL - I believe he may have been referencing the Miami game as an example - that probably made quite a number of posters feel good around here...
If Schoen actually considered the notion of signing and trading Barkley with the FT #2, I find it even more befuddling they didn't trade him at the deadline in 2023.
It was mixed messaging. There seemed genuine lines from Schoen about the reality of Jones not only being hurt, but being injury prone (history is the best way to predict the future).
But then there was the strong impression that they want him to have one more year because of the contract.
HOWEVER... we don't know what was edited out. Since they are "stuck" with Jones, they may not want to have released footage that said otherwise. And even if Jones was on the way out, they certainly wouldn't want to look low class (same with Wink, Saquon, Xavier, etc.).
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I thought it was clear they had a plan
Usually when a personnel guys says CB, he means outside CB, not nickel.
Agreed. To be fair though, I think most scouts viewed Phillips as an outside guy. He lined up at nickel in the spring but I'm hoping he graduates from there...
I'm pretty sure the opposite is true. He was viewed as a nickel, who could also play outside.
It’s the an acronym which looms above and behind all the players in their nyg meeting room. Trail? Mission accomplished, because that is all they have done for ten years…trailing the league in all categories….it’s got to be improved…… how about: “K.S.A.” (Kick Some Ass).
I doubt the cameras were even set up in the building when the Wink stuff went down, right after the season. Even if the team didn't have editorial control, the best you could hope for was hearing one side of the story.
1. Schoenge rover very clearly didnt want barkley back and is very clearly focused on positional value. i thought rossetti had a good argument he was pretty dismissive of but i guess we'll see how it goes. he didnt exactly execute his "wait until week 2 get someone cheap" plan either. eagles obviously play their cap games but barkley's cap # this year is 3.8m, singletary's is 3.75m. he talked a lot about 27 year old rbs and all the carries barkley had a PSU...then signed a smaller back who had more carries in college. really hope the PHI ol collapses w/ kelce and they didnt gift the eagles another playmaker.
2. feel like we got really lucky with his relationship w/ morgan re Burns. I was again agreeing with Rossetti when he guessed the trade price at a first+. still cant believe they got him for basically a 2nd rd pick. very cool to see how those conversations got sparked 2 months before the deal.
3. it's hard to get a read on the jones comments because they were contradictory. he is obviously correct when he says "they didnt pay him to hand the ball off" and "we committed to 2 years". contract very clearly articulated that. on flip side his comments about the past being the best predictor and the 3 injuries are just as valid. cant wait to see the draft discussions re qbs, and even any commentary on lock/devito.
4. daboll always comes off more likeable than schoen for me, we didnt see him much in this episode but his decision on bowen will end up being 1 of the handful of make or break decisions of the season. im guardedly optimistic bc it's a logical choice but a little worried about bowen flying solo without vrabel/schwartz. that whole unit literally riding on him.
5. agree with eric the mention of CB as a top need is interesting. not totally unexpected since they visited both tredavious white and darious williams. that is still a spot that may need a veteran, though it may be something they feel they can find after camp begins if players arent stepping up. Fabian Moureau was a week 2 vet. some decent ones still out there in FA. i hope they arent overrating their young guys but if they are at least mccloud/herndon/long/holmes/mills have a lot of game experience.
footage, and if there was genuine interest in Maye, but this first episode re-confirms my belief all along that Schoen has always been very comfortable with Jones as his QB. And did I hear Schoen say they had a three-year plan with Jones...?
When he said that Mahomes couldn't win behind the Giants OL - I believe he may have been referencing the Miami game as an example - that probably made quite a number of posters feel good around here...
If Schoen actually considered the notion of signing and trading Barkley with the FT #2, I find it even more befuddling they didn't trade him at the deadline in 2023.
I see it completely different. He's pissed off he's paying him $40M and he better deliver this year through airing it out. He referenced $40M multiple times almost in a tone that he was annoyed.
There was the exchange with Brown and McDonnell where Schoen talks about needing to address QB mainly given Jones' injuries. I'm sure Maye was the guy they targeted, but they'll edit that out I imagine. Next week focuses on QB.
The sense I got it Schoen is pissed off he's paying him $40M.
was always going to be the starter. If they traded up for Maye, he would have sat the majority of the year behind Jones. The footage from the first episode leads me to believe that.
“What will our identity be if we lose Barkley”. JFC
Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. One episode in and already can see we are fucked without Schoen’s team in the building. The Mara family appearances were underwhelming at best.
footage, and if there was genuine interest in Maye, but this first episode re-confirms my belief all along that Schoen has always been very comfortable with Jones as his QB. And did I hear Schoen say they had a three-year plan with Jones...?
When he said that Mahomes couldn't win behind the Giants OL - I believe he may have been referencing the Miami game as an example - that probably made quite a number of posters feel good around here...
If Schoen actually considered the notion of signing and trading Barkley with the FT #2, I find it even more befuddling they didn't trade him at the deadline in 2023.
I see it completely different. He's pissed off he's paying him $40M and he better deliver this year through airing it out. He referenced $40M multiple times almost in a tone that he was annoyed.
There was the exchange with Brown and McDonnell where Schoen talks about needing to address QB mainly given Jones' injuries. I'm sure Maye was the guy they targeted, but they'll edit that out I imagine. Next week focuses on QB.
The sense I got it Schoen is pissed off he's paying him $40M.
He’s got only himself to blame for that though.
I think it’s mix of both your opinions. Schoen is comfortable with Jones until he is able to find the QB he wants. That may mean Jones is the starting QB in the fall of 2025 as well.
Posted in the wrong thread - Mara & McDonnell are morons
I suppose it could be confirmation bias on my part about them, but neither one seemed to really grasp the economics of the Barkley situation.
Morgan’s friendship with Schoen is probably what lowered the draft cost for the Giants. I’d be a bit annoyed watching this series if I were a Panthers fan.
I don’t see how someone doesn’t hire Brandon Brown as a GM sometime soon - and I love how in sync he is with Schoen.
Also - anyone else yell at Schoen to have at least one hand on the wheel when eating & driving?
“What will our identity be if we lose Barkley”. JFC
Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. One episode in and already can see we are fucked without Schoen’s team in the building. The Mara family appearances were underwhelming at best.
100%. I cringed listening to the Mara family. They are clueless
After a really rough season I feel like my interest has been rekindled. Also, while I've been a really vocal critic of ownership nothing Mara was shown to do/say he didn't do anything another owner wouldn't have. The one that stuck out to me, like others, was McConnell bemoaning the loss of their offensive identity. You just trotted out the lowest scoring Giants offense since before my birth. Maybe a change of identity is warranted. Schoen certainly seems to think so.
Some stuff that hit me:
I knew Schoen's staff was young but man Rossetti and Brandon Brown look like kids. Maybe its just I'm getting old. The thing is the youngest one's in the room are the sharpest so there's that.
I knew everyone was gonna jump on McDonnell's comment and it was stupid. However the concept of it wasn't, but they were asking the wrong question. "identity" is a stupid buzzword. The correct, fair question would be in a league full of playmakers who else in our room is one? Saquon was our best one by far. Now I'm all in favor of how it shook out, it was time to part ways, and obviously we answered the playmaker thing at #6 but it would have been fair to ask at that moment.
On the flip side of the young thing the other big thing that struck me was how old and feeble John Mara looked in casual conversation. Its like talking to your 90 year old grandma about football.
Everyone is spot on reading the Jones situation. That episode made it clear that any concept of Lock coming in here and having a legit chance to win the starting job is utter nonsense. If healthy its clearly Jones.
It is amazing with how young Schoen is how much experience he has starting at the very bottom. It must be galling to someone like him when some former player retires and steps right into the front office.
Can't wait for the draft/free agency stuff. That's gonna be fun.
After a really rough season I feel like my interest has been rekindled. Also, while I've been a really vocal critic of ownership nothing Mara was shown to do/say he didn't do anything another owner wouldn't have. The one that stuck out to me, like others, was McConnell bemoaning the loss of their offensive identity. You just trotted out the lowest scoring Giants offense since before my birth. Maybe a change of identity is warranted. Schoen certainly seems to think so.
I thought it was really telling that when they were going over the FA RBs they kept bringing up how decisive some of those backs were. I think it was a small tell on how they felt Barkley wasn't being as decisive as they wanted. That was always one of the knocks on Barkley.
I'm glad the Packers aren't on our schedule this year because if Josh Jacobs watched that episode he would be real motivated to run all over us lol. They were killing him.
I'm not so sure. Look at the way Mara talked about Barkley in the episode. I'm confident he was even more vocal about wanting Barkley back in 2022 off a playoff win. That's a tough spot for a first time GM.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
ITs clear the injury situation last year effected everything they wanted to do and that they were taking the focus off the running back position and moving it back to the D and the passing game.. This is clearly Dans yr to make it or break it with a brand new OL that has an ability to protect for longer than 1 sec.. They have / had a plan and followed it thru hopefully we get better results.. I am a fan of Schoen very smart. MAra clearly waw thinking draft RB if dont sign SQ but he wanted to sign SQ -Joe wanted nothing to do with it. used the money freed up wisely
I'm not so sure. Look at the way Mara talked about Barkley in the episode. I'm confident he was even more vocal about wanting Barkley back in 2022 off a playoff win. That's a tough spot for a first time GM.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
There was a middle ground between franchise and $40 million though. He could have let him find a deal on the open market and matched or exceeded it and it still probably doesn’t break $30 million. The $40 million is squarely on Joe’s shoulders.
My observation is Schoen is lukewarm on Jones and would upgrade if he got the chance but is fine with him if his ceiling is 2022 Jones until the contract is up.
last night and it now confirms for me just how right my theory was about the 23 offseason is that Mara (and a few others) wanted to desperately keep Barkley and even more so than Jones.
Look at Maras face during the discussion with Schoen over cost of Barkley and how much Mara wanted to keep him. It is clear to me that Schoen and Daboll were willing to pay more (creatively) to keep Jones so the FT could be used on Barkley.
Schoen even said the idea was Jones had a few years to prove himself worth it or we move on (that confirms the out they built into the contract) and the fact that Barkley wasn't the guy Schoen and Daboll wanted to build the entire offense upon.
This idea of what will the offense be without Barkley makes me laugh.. With Barkley it scored the lowest points in a season since 1979.. What are we losing? I know it isn't all on Barkley but this idea that he is so irreplaceable is comical.
It is also very telling that Schoen and Daboll clearly know the Oline and talent outside was not up to snuff..
I like our new DC, he comes in with an idea and a plan for what he wants the defense to be. I think we will see Thibs, Burns, Ojulari and Lawrence a lot on passing downs.
Schoen is passive aggressively calling out the 40 million contract on Mara. That would be career suicide. No owner would want to work with a GM that throws their owner under the bus. There are only 32 of those jobs out there.
Maybe the beat writers start calling McDonnell out as a nepotism hire
If I’m not mistaken there were several meetings with him, Brown, & Schoen & he contributed nothing. And his only comment in the show the aforementioned ‘run identity’ comment.
I was also underwhelmed by Abrams, glad he’s not the GM.
I'm not so sure. Look at the way Mara talked about Barkley in the episode. I'm confident he was even more vocal about wanting Barkley back in 2022 off a playoff win. That's a tough spot for a first time GM.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
There was a middle ground between franchise and $40 million though. He could have let him find a deal on the open market and matched or exceeded it and it still probably doesn’t break $30 million. The $40 million is squarely on Joe’s shoulders.
My observation is Schoen is lukewarm on Jones and would upgrade if he got the chance but is fine with him if his ceiling is 2022 Jones until the contract is up.
Complete agreement. Schoen let Team Jones dictate negotiations and he should never have said he wanted him back before negotiations began. I hope Schoen has learned from that miscalculation.
Or one of those Modern Marvel shows on The History Channel. We're seeing how the sausage is made, so to speak, and it rarely looks appetizing. I hope that in the end it tastes a lot better than it looks.
RE: Maybe the beat writers start calling McDonnell out as a nepotism hire
If I’m not mistaken there were several meetings with him, Brown, & Schoen & he contributed nothing. And his only comment in the show the aforementioned ‘run identity’ comment.
I was also underwhelmed by Abrams, glad he’s not the GM.
What was a little odd is we know the Giants had rights to edit what was shown - it’s almost as if they insisted on including scenes with Mara (he’s the owner, I get that), McDonnell and Abrams to show they’re actively involved.
But based on what was shown, while it’s Schoen’s front office, part of his job is allowing the Mara loyalists a voice, while at times having to tactfully manage around them
I'm not so sure. Look at the way Mara talked about Barkley in the episode. I'm confident he was even more vocal about wanting Barkley back in 2022 off a playoff win. That's a tough spot for a first time GM.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
There was a middle ground between franchise and $40 million though. He could have let him find a deal on the open market and matched or exceeded it and it still probably doesn’t break $30 million. The $40 million is squarely on Joe’s shoulders.
My observation is Schoen is lukewarm on Jones and would upgrade if he got the chance but is fine with him if his ceiling is 2022 Jones until the contract is up.
You're correct that Schoen was/is less than hot and bothered about Jones -- but that's not news. The contract structure showed it. And Schoen even verbalized it was always the plan to give DJ two years to prove he's the man for 10 years or pivot.
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
1) fix the OL
2) let your $40 QB sling it
3) if he can't stay healthy or can't perform he's out
Not a huge revelation but good to see it articulated.
I thought the most revealing comment was from Schoen in the meeting with Bowen where he said they needed a #1 WR, a pass rusher, and a cornerback.
Something to keep in mind moving forward. They got two of the three.
Well, they did in the draft at corner, but it's an easy thing to say you need to do, but with Burns and Nabers, they may have hot home runs with those 2 needs.
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
RE: RE: So much indecision. Mara reminds me of a boss
that doesn’t want to micromanage, but does anyway. When Schoen told him Daniel makes a lot of money it sounded like that was Mara’s doing also. “Fork in the road” was an apt metaphor.
He's the owner. He writes the checks. The GM is accountable to him. Why shouldnt he have an ear on what is going on with the franchise he owns?
Because all of his knowledge and experience in football is inheriting a football team. He has no background in scouting or coaching and has demonstrated no talent for understanding what he is watching. “Who knew Jerrel Jernigan could play?”
As he explained, he should only be involved in personnel decisions when it comes to the image of the franchise. Seemingly he interprets that as “Keep the guys that are good with the media and the community and try to build a winner around them.”
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
It doesn't work that way with your starting QB. You DON'T let them test the market unless you want them gone. That would be NFL GM 101.
The fact is Schoen bought a year option when he declined year 5. NFL cap dynamics drove up the price a bit, as always at QB. Speaking of, this years QB tag price is $38.3MM.
Has no clue how major enterprises are run. There's not an owner in the NFL who wouldn't be making his feelings known at least as much as they showed -- and rightfully so. If an enterprise of similar size and complexity was public, the chief executive (eg Joe Schoen) would be going over every major decision with the board. They'd give their input - and he'd want it. And sometimes that input would be quite forceful. A skill of excellent leaders is managing up.
That is your experience with owners who did not work in the industry in which their business operates? That happens, but it is certainly not common. Even in family run businesses, the children usually grow up working in the business to understand it. What is John Mara’s scouting and coaching background?
JS “Daniel is making a lot of money and we need to figure out if he’s the guy”. How the fuck do you give him that contract if you don’t believe he is the guy?
Really seems like Mara pushed the jones contract after rewatching this
My impression was this is definitely the Schoen and Daboll show
Mara expressed his opinion which sounded more like "how do I keep butts in seats" then "keep Saquon". And Saquon is gone.
I really like the banter so far between Joe and his staff. Seems very open, even though we are only seeing 1 minute of what are probably hour long conversations.
was always going to be the starter. If they traded up for Maye, he would have sat the majority of the year behind Jones. The footage from the first episode leads me to believe that.
Agreed. I'll be interested to see if we get to know how serious the Giants were about Maye. This first episode makes me believe that Sy was correct in that we weren't going all out for a QB unless he was there at six making JJ the only realistic option if the evals gave him a first round grade.
The Hard Knocks preview for the next episode did show J.J. McCarthy, so maybe we get to learn more about the amount of time spent with him and hopefully a glimpse into the evaluation process.
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
It doesn't work that way with your starting QB. You DON'T let them test the market unless you want them gone. That would be NFL GM 101.
The fact is Schoen bought a year option when he declined year 5. NFL cap dynamics drove up the price a bit, as always at QB. Speaking of, this years QB tag price is $38.3MM.
Do you believe Jones would have gotten that amount of money (or more) from another NFL team?
JS “Daniel is making a lot of money and we need to figure out if he’s the guy”. How the fuck do you give him that contract if you don’t believe he is the guy?
Really seems like Mara pushed the jones contract after rewatching this
To me this speaks to the organization’s view of the position - you select a QB and he is your franchise guy until he clearly demonstrates he can’t be. Jones has never had to prove he is a franchise QB. He has had to avoid showing he isn’t a franchise QB. 2022 reset the discussion for the Giants so now we have to have that discussion again in 2024.
To me, the question is this - what can Jones do in 2024 that makes you think that is the QB you will see consistently going forward and the first 5 years were the mis-reading? Even if Jones plays really well in 2024, why would you trust him to do it again in 2025 and 2026?
The Giants have a confirmation bias with Daniel Jones and giving him opportunity after opportunity where negative outcomes say nothing about him and positive outcomes are because of him is a very dangerous way to stay in this QB hell of their own design.
The Giants should be asking themselves what Jones has done to secure another year rather than around how many years they “give” him.
I think fans forget John Mara owns less than 5% of the team personally, and that he is in every way the president and CEO of an organization.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
In the discussion around Barkley and McDonnell’s comments around losing their offensive identity. The question in his mind was clearly around replacing a really good player that they could market as opposed to how do we make a terrible offense better.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
I think fans forget John Mara owns less than 5% of the team personally, and that he is in every way the president and CEO of an organization.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
If that were the case, why wouldn’t Mara want Barkely playing in Philadelphia behind a better Oline with a chance to shine brighter than he ever did in NY?
Mara clearly wants Barkely to be a star for the Giants, not the NFL.
‘The Nephew’ pieces scared the hell out of me. If he’s the future, Good Lord…
Yep. Comes across as a clueless spoiled brat. Mara also doesn’t come across well either. His affinity for jones and at the time Barkley pretty much affirms what many here suspected.
It was clear that Mara (and McDonnell) were uncomfortable about moving on from Barkley. And it was also clear who's running the team and making the decisions. The owner opined. The GM call the shot. I hope this will put to rest, or at least, dampen the talk about Mara's meddling.
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
It doesn't work that way with your starting QB. You DON'T let them test the market unless you want them gone. That would be NFL GM 101.
The fact is Schoen bought a year option when he declined year 5. NFL cap dynamics drove up the price a bit, as always at QB. Speaking of, this years QB tag price is $38.3MM.
Do you believe Jones would have gotten that amount of money (or more) from another NFL team?
I'd have to do the same exercise as Schoen did for SB in the show about what teams might value him higher; I don't have that in me. No point anyway.
That said, I doubt it. Jones value to the Giants at that point, in that situation, was probably higher than other teams. And probably by a lot - just as SB's value to the Eagles was nearly twice Schoen's.
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
I think fans forget John Mara owns less than 5% of the team personally, and that he is in every way the president and CEO of an organization.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
John Mara doesn't strike me as an owner who doesn't care about winning as long as the team is profitable. For all the shit Mara gets, I don't see how anyone could think he doesn't badly want to win. I just don't think he knows how. He's incredibly invested in how the football team performs.
I think fans forget John Mara owns less than 5% of the team personally, and that he is in every way the president and CEO of an organization.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
If that were the case, why wouldn’t Mara want Barkely playing in Philadelphia behind a better Oline with a chance to shine brighter than he ever did in NY?
Mara clearly wants Barkely to be a star for the Giants, not the NFL.
A Giants team packed with star power is good for both the NFL and the Giants. The Giants, even as a losing franchise, have a higher profile and generate more value than a winning a Eagles team.
I'm not saying Mara operates solely on behalf of the NFL. He creates value for his family and the Tisches through direct team channels as well.
My point is Schoen is in charge of football operations, and Mara is in charge of overall revenue operations. Schoen is not playing the part of a defacto CEO. He's just a piece of the puzzle.
Says that the Giants are purposely manipulating this a lot and went into this begrudgingly with the idea to let out as little insight as possible.
I say this because
a) We have Daboll specifically saying at the Legends event that he was doing all he could to avoid the release of important conversations.
b) It's clear that HBO wired two or three rooms with the cameras to get the bulk of their information, which are that large meeting room where Bowen was presenting and Schoen's office. I think in a large facility it would be easy to "go through the motions" in those areas and save the important convos for other areas. An example of this is how Schoen's 150 sq foot office had about 10 guys in it at one point crammed in to discuss Barkley. I think it's intentional.
Maybe I'm off but the whole thing seems forced and a little staged to me.
Sean -- I'm not saying Mara doesn't care about winning. I think it's obvious he does.
My point is that in reality he personally holds a very small ownership stake in the company, and holds the job as the highest corporate officer. He runs the show on behalf of his family and the Tisches family.
And he has other responsibilities outside of the football operations. He'd be a fool to not consider the revenue implications of losing a star player.
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
some stuff can be clear, if in conjunction to things that happened in real world - i.e. hard knocks aside schoen had a clear unwillingness to change his offers to barkley from one year to the next even as the cap increased more than expected.
various members of his staff articulated alternative viewpoints, which is their job, some which proved correct like rossetti, but in the end schoen stuck with his belief in positional value and made a decision with clear conviction. out of everything we saw in episode 1 that to me is a clear and inarguable takeaway. how it works out is entirely unknown for all involved but we saw exactly how the decision unfolded, and it explains the strained relationship the past 16 months.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
isn't one kind of related to the other? the literal job descriptions of most everyone in any FO below GM is focusing on individual players.
I am talking about what Mara, Schoen and McDonnell are focused on. Are you suggesting they should be more focused on individual player success than team success?
Sure, a RB coach should be concerned about the success of the RBs. Clearly that is not what my post was about. I think you know that.
Sean -- I'm not saying Mara doesn't care about winning. I think it's obvious he does.
My point is that in reality he personally holds a very small ownership stake in the company, and holds the job as the highest corporate officer. He runs the show on behalf of his family and the Tisches family.
And he has other responsibilities outside of the football operations. He'd be a fool to not consider the revenue implications of losing a star player.
any owner or ceo would also be a fool if they didnt at least have some working knowledge of how to quantify one of their most productive employees in their primary business. barkley was the giants 4th all time rushing leader, less than 100 yards from 3rd (joe morris), and has the highest career ypg in franchise history.
it is not abnormal for any owner to be less informed than the subject matter expert they employ specifically for particularly difficult decisions like that one. im sure steve cohen or hal steinbrenner prefer to extend pete alonso and juan soto but similarly david stearns and cashman will ultimately need to be the ones to decide where the line is or isnt where the cost is too prohibitive for the team.
Schoen all but said "why am I fucking stressing out over a running back?"
I keep going back to why was he franchised after 2022? It's seems clear to me that if it were up to Schoen, the no brainer would have been to franchise Jones and let Barkley test the market. This is where I think Mara did come into play after the success of 2022 including the playoff win.
I don't disagree. My point, further up in the chain, is that John Mara truly only has a small personal minority stake in the team.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
“What will our identity be if we lose Barkley”. JFC
Stuck in the 90s. Omg.
People seem very confused about this exchange. Unless you want sycophants nodding along with every one of Schoen's utterances, you need someone in the room willing to stand up and present the opposing argument.
Whether or not the fans find his point compelling couldn't be less relevant.
That assumes all arguments are valid and of equal value.
In comment 16547764 BJacobs The Tiptoe Bandit said:
Quote:
Says that the Giants are purposely manipulating this a lot and went into this begrudgingly with the idea to let out as little insight as possible.
I say this because
a) We have Daboll specifically saying at the Legends event that he was doing all he could to avoid the release of important conversations.
b) It's clear that HBO wired two or three rooms with the cameras to get the bulk of their information, which are that large meeting room where Bowen was presenting and Schoen's office. I think in a large facility it would be easy to "go through the motions" in those areas and save the important convos for other areas. An example of this is how Schoen's 150 sq foot office had about 10 guys in it at one point crammed in to discuss Barkley. I think it's intentional.
Maybe I'm off but the whole thing seems forced and a little staged to me.
It's not conspiracy theory. Organizations such as the Giants will narrative-engineer. Not only for public consumption (think propaganda) but also to prevent internal problems (think about Jones' ego).
If I’m not mistaken there were several meetings with him, Brown, & Schoen & he contributed nothing. And his only comment in the show the aforementioned ‘run identity’ comment.
Of course he’s a nepotism hire he’s being groomed to be the next team President.
I don't disagree. My point, further up in the chain, is that John Mara truly only has a small personal minority stake in the team.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
I think this might be true of some NFL owners, but not John Mara. Despite my criticisms of him as an owner, the Giants are his family and he is passionate about the success of this team like any rabid fan would be. If you asked Mara behind closed doors if he would accept a 10% decrease in NFL revenue in exchange for a Giants SB win, he would take it in a heartbeat.
Schoen all but said "why am I fucking stressing out over a running back?"
I keep going back to why was he franchised after 2022? It's seems clear to me that if it were up to Schoen, the no brainer would have been to franchise Jones and let Barkley test the market. This is where I think Mara did come into play after the success of 2022 including the playoff win.
My guess is John Mara is a good-hearted man, who naively thinks everything can work out nicely.
I think he believes in a world where the nice, well liked players are also the best players and with a team full of those good guys, the Giants can win Super Bowls. And that will in turn make his siblings and the Tisches lot of money.
And when those good players (include the coaches and staff) get a little older, they'll voluntarily retire and ride off happily.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
isn't one kind of related to the other? the literal job descriptions of most everyone in any FO below GM is focusing on individual players.
I am talking about what Mara, Schoen and McDonnell are focused on. Are you suggesting they should be more focused on individual player success than team success?
Sure, a RB coach should be concerned about the success of the RBs. Clearly that is not what my post was about. I think you know that.
i am suggesting that individual player successes are entirely linked to team successes and the job of the FO is to find players who will be individually successful because those individual successes = team success. when any player gains yards or scores touchdowns, their team gains yards and gets points. teams arent trying to build rosters of players who are individually unsuccessful.
the show cuts together months worth of things they are "focused on" into a narrative that will be compelling for TV. Barkley is by far the most recognizable player on the team and one of the bigger storylines of the offseason so that's what TV is focusing on.
if you think 40 minutes is an accurate guide to what they were in reality (not tv) more/less focused on does that mean you think the team wasn't focused on OL since it hardly came up beyond a few throwaway lines?
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
I think this might be true of some NFL owners, but not John Mara. Despite my criticisms of him as an owner, the Giants are his family and he is passionate about the success of this team like any rabid fan would be. If you asked Mara behind closed doors if he would accept a 10% decrease in NFL revenue in exchange for a Giants SB win, he would take it in a heartbeat.
I don't disagree. But this where I think many people forget John Mara personally owns less than 5% of the team.
In the discussion around Barkley and McDonnell’s comments around losing their offensive identity. The question in his mind was clearly around replacing a really good player that they could market as opposed to how do we make a terrible offense better.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
THIS.
The one thing that didn't leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling was the lack of a big picture discussion. What are we doing? How are we trying to build this? What is our vision?
Instead, I came away with a totally REACTIVE mindset, rather than PROACTIVE. I've personally seen this before in government organizations.
Now, I'm hoping we simply were not privy to the big picture, strategic discussions. But if those did not occur and everything is done piecemeal, yikes.
The Giants are going to push to minimize any talk of Maye. Jones was going to be the starting QB at the start of the seasonwith a contingency plan regardless of whether we drafted a QB, of course these conversations are going to revolve around him being the starting 40m QB this year.
What I found interesting was that he referred to the fork when discussing Daniel, he's referring to the out next year. I still think it's a long shot that he does enough to earn a restructure but they're going to give him a shot that's more inline with Schoen/Daboll's identity. I'm a little skeptical about our OL issues being sorted but we'll see.
You are making an awful lot of strange arguments to support your point. In absolutely no way did I suggest that what we saw on HK was the totality of what was discussed. That is a ludicrous suggestion to make, and again you know this. Sometimes it is hard to have a rationale discussion when someone says things that are obviously disingenuous.
I won’t continue this discussion with you, other than to say that I think it is fair to suggest what some people said on HM may be a reflection of what they believe. If you want to argue it was a performance and everyone is completely different than they were portrayed and believe very different things than what they were on the show saying, you can argue that all day and make a great case that nobody can ever know anything and discussing anything is pointless.
the meetings reminded me of the scene in Money Ball with the scouts
I don't disagree. My point, further up in the chain, is that John Mara truly only has a small personal minority stake in the team.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
I like your POV on this and agree with you on the separation of power within the team. Never thought of it that way.
RE: to be honest the whole thing seems staged as i watched it
theres little to no authenticity to this whole thing.
i get it as fans we want to consume every piece of news/media/content about this team and try to dissect it, but this to me seems contrived.
i will focus on results/actions/actual moves than some soundbites when judging this FO.
Of course it is staged to an extent. Few people speak their mind freely when they know a camera is recording them and will broadcast all the juiciest parts to the entire world. That will make most people measure what they say and how they say it.
JS “Daniel is making a lot of money and we need to figure out if he’s the guy”. How the fuck do you give him that contract if you don’t believe he is the guy?
Really seems like Mara pushed the jones contract after rewatching this
you can't be serious! The video clearly shows Mara pushed keeping BARKLEY and wanted to keep him again...
I don't disagree. My point, further up in the chain, is that John Mara truly only has a small personal minority stake in the team.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
any ceo walks and chews gum or they dont succeed.
tim cook's job is bigger than winning market share with iphones, but if any of his top products fails it's not good. it's not his job to personally get the designs/features of those specific products right, it's his job to hire the right people to do that at scale across all the products they sell and be as involved as he needs to be pushing those people to do their best work.
mara's success/failure as lead owner/CEO is almost entirely whether or not he hires the right people. i'm not the biggest joe schoen fan but the thing im most encouraged by is that he has strong convictions in certain things (particularly positional value) and we saw yesterday that even when pressed by a variety of private counter arguments he stuck to his convictions - which also turned out to be different than one of the top GMs in the sport. all any of us can do (mara included) is hope he is right because everyone's interests (fan's, owner's, schoen family's) are aligned in that.
cares about winning. The franchise has established high standards to meet in its history. Taking heat with the media and fans is just one component when things are not going well.
JM then has to deal with a lot of other Mara's. Many of them probably have different ideas of what needs to be done moving forward. Then you add in the Tisch side.
cares about winning. The franchise has established high standards to meet in its history. Taking heat with the media and fans is just one component when things are not going well.
JM then has to deal with a lot of other Mara's. Many of them probably have different ideas of what needs to be done moving forward. Then you add in the Tisch side.
The Tisch side is probably the main reason that Schoen was hired in the first place.
I'm guessing we won't see Tisch in the Giants building having discussions with Schoen. That's rather telling.
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
In the discussion around Barkley and McDonnell’s comments around losing their offensive identity. The question in his mind was clearly around replacing a really good player that they could market as opposed to how do we make a terrible offense better.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
THIS.
The one thing that didn't leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling was the lack of a big picture discussion. What are we doing? How are we trying to build this? What is our vision?
Instead, I came away with a totally REACTIVE mindset, rather than PROACTIVE. I've personally seen this before in government organizations.
Now, I'm hoping we simply were not privy to the big picture, strategic discussions. But if those did not occur and everything is done piecemeal, yikes.
I didn't sense that Schoen or Brown was being reactive. He identified their needs and met those needs through draft (get #1 receiver), trades (Burns), and free agency (OL). He was not going to overpay for a RB, unlike the previous GM he understands the value of the position. And we aren't seeing all of their discussions, not by a long shot.
The lack of an ability of Mara/McDonnell to think creatively or with any strategic vision is obvious.
The biggest takeaway for me from this episode was how utterly useless and unqualified McDonnell is. I doubt he says anything insightful or clever in any episode of HK.
cares about winning. The franchise has established high standards to meet in its history. Taking heat with the media and fans is just one component when things are not going well.
JM then has to deal with a lot of other Mara's. Many of them probably have different ideas of what needs to be done moving forward. Then you add in the Tisch side.
The Tisch side is probably the main reason that Schoen was hired in the first place.
I'm guessing we won't see Tisch in the Giants building having discussions with Schoen. That's rather telling.
Agreed. I wish the Tisch family owned the team outright instead of the Maras.
You are making an awful lot of strange arguments to support your point. In absolutely no way did I suggest that what we saw on HK was the totality of what was discussed. That is a ludicrous suggestion to make, and again you know this. Sometimes it is hard to have a rationale discussion when someone says things that are obviously disingenuous.
I won’t continue this discussion with you, other than to say that I think it is fair to suggest what some people said on HM may be a reflection of what they believe. If you want to argue it was a performance and everyone is completely different than they were portrayed and believe very different things than what they were on the show saying, you can argue that all day and make a great case that nobody can ever know anything and discussing anything is pointless.
we can move on but to be clear i never said the way people were acting was performative. just that we are only seeing a very small amount of the 40 minutes chosen to be shown by producers focused on creating compelling TV people watch, which is not necessarily an accurate representation of how they spent the 40,000+ minutes of real time spanned in the episode.
you are extrapolating from a few conversations that some are "more focused on individual players than the overall success of the team" as if the former has nothing to do with the latter. i think that is the strange argument, especially if understood that what is shown is only a fragment of what was discussed (and the most intentionally controversial fragments at that).
cares about winning. The franchise has established high standards to meet in its history. Taking heat with the media and fans is just one component when things are not going well.
JM then has to deal with a lot of other Mara's. Many of them probably have different ideas of what needs to be done moving forward. Then you add in the Tisch side.
The Tisch side is probably the main reason that Schoen was hired in the first place.
I'm guessing we won't see Tisch in the Giants building having discussions with Schoen. That's rather telling.
Agreed. I wish the Tisch family owned the team outright instead of the Maras.
No argument here. Tisch knows what he doesn't know. And Mara doesn't.
Eric - don't you take what you saw in concert w/ what they did?
The one thing that didn't leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling was the lack of a big picture discussion. What are we doing? How are we trying to build this? What is our vision?
Instead, I came away with a totally REACTIVE mindset, rather than PROACTIVE. I've personally seen this before in government organizations.
Now, I'm hoping we simply were not privy to the big picture, strategic discussions. But if those did not occur and everything is done piecemeal, yikes.
from Brandon Brown's outback analogy, to the Barkley discussions, to the Bowen question about edge guys vs interior penetrators, what i saw in the show aligns with the decisions they made (burns, barkley, etc) - emphasis on premium positional value is their proactive vision for how they are trying to build this org.
i suspect this will continue as the episodes move forward and the draft focuses in on QBs/WRs, which are now basically tied with EDGE as the most expensive positions other than QB.
It seemed very clear this team is going the way of Joe Schoen's plan and all the conversations were opening that plan up for discussion and ultimately shutting counterpoints down.
I think some people's expectations for owners of sports francises
is warped. Every team owner would have conversations with their GM about what they plan to do with their star player. And every one of them would have an opinion. There is nothing dysfunctional about any of what we saw. The flaw is on some fan's expectations. The fact that Schoen clearly made the call is exactly what you would hope/expect.
1 other thing surprisingly not brought up much yet - Christian Wilkins
anyone else casually wondering if they weren't better off signing him and keeping the 2nd round pick instead of the Burns trade?
Wilkins is lower ceiling/higher floor than Burns, but a very very good player.
at #39 the Giants would have been able to take the trade Carolina took from LAR which was an outright steal picking up a 2025 2nd and moving down to #52. Or they could have taken Max Melton, Kool-aid, Fiske, Dejean at #39.
signing him instead of the burns trade would have canceled out the McKinney comp pick for sure, but the value of pick #39 is a significant difference.
footage, and if there was genuine interest in Maye, but this first episode re-confirms my belief all along that Schoen has always been very comfortable with Jones as his QB. And did I hear Schoen say they had a three-year plan with Jones...?
When he said that Mahomes couldn't win behind the Giants OL - I believe he may have been referencing the Miami game as an example - that probably made quite a number of posters feel good around here...
If Schoen actually considered the notion of signing and trading Barkley with the FT #2, I find it even more befuddling they didn't trade him at the deadline in 2023.
I see it completely different. He's pissed off he's paying him $40M and he better deliver this year through airing it out. He referenced $40M multiple times almost in a tone that he was annoyed.
There was the exchange with Brown and McDonnell where Schoen talks about needing to address QB mainly given Jones' injuries. I'm sure Maye was the guy they targeted, but they'll edit that out I imagine. Next week focuses on QB.
The sense I got it Schoen is pissed off he's paying him $40M.
We definitely see this differently. I concluded Schoen is pissed off because Jones is always injured, not because he can't be the answer. And he feels they need a better solution at back-up QB in case Jones gets injured again.
To me, the $40M refrain is Schoen saying they have their QB, he just needs a better supporting cast. Which is underscored by the Pat Mahomes remark; and how even a magician like Mahomes could not win with the Giants supporting cast (I don't believe that, btw).
I came away from the episode pretty underwhelmed with the entire group of decision makers - Schoen, Brown, Rossetti, Hickey, etc. Seeing Abrams made me want to throw up in my mouth.
Daboll is the only guy who impresses me out of all this current regime...
I would love to have them gather their scouting staff together in a room and break out a draft board from 3 years ago and critique how they did in the draft. Did they prioritize the wrong skills? I remember one Judge draft where i think everyone they drafted was a captain on their team. Where they to focused on their immediate needs or they board just fell wrong for them, just what problems can be fixed.
RE: 1 other thing surprisingly not brought up much yet - Christian Wilkins
anyone else casually wondering if they weren't better off signing him and keeping the 2nd round pick instead of the Burns trade?
Wilkins is lower ceiling/higher floor than Burns, but a very very good player.
at #39 the Giants would have been able to take the trade Carolina took from LAR which was an outright steal picking up a 2025 2nd and moving down to #52. Or they could have taken Max Melton, Kool-aid, Fiske, Dejean at #39.
signing him instead of the burns trade would have canceled out the McKinney comp pick for sure, but the value of pick #39 is a significant difference.
I’d rather have Burns than Wilkins & the pick. Burns is much more of an impact player.
we don't really need to be focused so much on Schoen eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches... what the hell was that?
Because he’s the main character and they’re trying to give viewers background on who he is and where he’s come from. That he’s a blue collar guy who rose through the ranks on the road is important, highlighting that he still eats PBJs is a nice visualization of the point.
Because that gets into competitive advantage arena. We saw plenty to understand that the team is reforming the roster construction (away from RB, building the line, as example). There was talk of one big player verses speedreading out across the needs. I wouldn't expect really much more than what was shown. They aren't going to give you too many glimpses into future of QB position outside of we need to support DJ, he's our guy, for obvious reasons.
It was mixed messaging. There seemed genuine lines from Schoen about the reality of Jones not only being hurt, but being injury prone (history is the best way to predict the future).
But then there was the strong impression that they want him to have one more year because of the contract.
HOWEVER... we don't know what was edited out. Since they are "stuck" with Jones, they may not want to have released footage that said otherwise. And even if Jones was on the way out, they certainly wouldn't want to look low class (same with Wink, Saquon, Xavier, etc.).
The draft episode is going to be fascinating with how much they reveal about the trade-up opportunity and how they stitch together the narrative on why they drafted Nabers.
About barkley. Did I mishear or did he say "i dont want to be in a position to have to draft a RB high again" and when Schoen said we can get one in free agency he said "dont commit to anything".
He hasnt learned anything over the past 4-5 years.
You aren't going to get full transparency on anything QB related
That's too way close to inside on a team's inner thinking regarding the most important position. You'll get some soft hints, but the overall message will be we need to support DJ. As it should be. I don't want their intentions broadcasted to the country. Next April is too freaking important.
RE: RE: 1 other thing surprisingly not brought up much yet - Christian Wilkins
anyone else casually wondering if they weren't better off signing him and keeping the 2nd round pick instead of the Burns trade?
Wilkins is lower ceiling/higher floor than Burns, but a very very good player.
at #39 the Giants would have been able to take the trade Carolina took from LAR which was an outright steal picking up a 2025 2nd and moving down to #52. Or they could have taken Max Melton, Kool-aid, Fiske, Dejean at #39.
signing him instead of the burns trade would have canceled out the McKinney comp pick for sure, but the value of pick #39 is a significant difference.
I’d rather have Burns than Wilkins & the pick. Burns is much more of an impact player.
not sure i agree with the "much more". wilkins has been a good player and a top 10 DL each of the past few years. he was picked 13th a few picks ahead of burns/dex for a reason. he is a really good player. he'd also probably add more than burns against the run, and while he's not an explosive pass rusher like a top edge, last year he had 10 sacks and 58 pressures. burns had 9 sacks, 40 pressures and in his best year was 13 sacks 68 pressures.
so again there's obvious pass rush upside with an edge > idl that's probably worth the added run defense from wilkins, but is it enough that it was worth the 39th pick? ive been a fan of both burns/wilkins since their draft years, i think it's a close call either way and id have been happy with either outcome.
I don't disagree. My point, further up in the chain, is that John Mara truly only has a small personal minority stake in the team.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
any ceo walks and chews gum or they dont succeed.
tim cook's job is bigger than winning market share with iphones, but if any of his top products fails it's not good. it's not his job to personally get the designs/features of those specific products right, it's his job to hire the right people to do that at scale across all the products they sell and be as involved as he needs to be pushing those people to do their best work.
mara's success/failure as lead owner/CEO is almost entirely whether or not he hires the right people. i'm not the biggest joe schoen fan but the thing im most encouraged by is that he has strong convictions in certain things (particularly positional value) and we saw yesterday that even when pressed by a variety of private counter arguments he stuck to his convictions - which also turned out to be different than one of the top GMs in the sport. all any of us can do (mara included) is hope he is right because everyone's interests (fan's, owner's, schoen family's) are aligned in that.
I'm not entirely sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. But my train of thought is directed at Hbart's description of Schoen as the CEO figure and Mara as the BOD. That's the contention I am disagreeing with and the point I'm illustrating.
RE: RE: RE: 1 other thing surprisingly not brought up much yet - Christian Wilkins
anyone else casually wondering if they weren't better off signing him and keeping the 2nd round pick instead of the Burns trade?
Wilkins is lower ceiling/higher floor than Burns, but a very very good player.
at #39 the Giants would have been able to take the trade Carolina took from LAR which was an outright steal picking up a 2025 2nd and moving down to #52. Or they could have taken Max Melton, Kool-aid, Fiske, Dejean at #39.
signing him instead of the burns trade would have canceled out the McKinney comp pick for sure, but the value of pick #39 is a significant difference.
I’d rather have Burns than Wilkins & the pick. Burns is much more of an impact player.
not sure i agree with the "much more". wilkins has been a good player and a top 10 DL each of the past few years. he was picked 13th a few picks ahead of burns/dex for a reason. he is a really good player. he'd also probably add more than burns against the run, and while he's not an explosive pass rusher like a top edge, last year he had 10 sacks and 58 pressures. burns had 9 sacks, 40 pressures and in his best year was 13 sacks 68 pressures.
so again there's obvious pass rush upside with an edge > idl that's probably worth the added run defense from wilkins, but is it enough that it was worth the 39th pick? ive been a fan of both burns/wilkins since their draft years, i think it's a close call either way and id have been happy with either outcome.
That’s fair - but Wilkins was on a much, much better team. I’m excited to see what Burns can do.
About barkley. Did I mishear or did he say "i dont want to be in a position to have to draft a RB high again" and when Schoen said we can get one in free agency he said "dont commit to anything".
He hasnt learned anything over the past 4-5 years.
He did make that comment about drafting a RB high again, and it was pretty cringeworthy. As if to imply that A, they ‘had’ to draft a RB at #2 overall, and B, that it would be necessary to use a Day 1-2 pick on a RB again
McDonnell’s question about “what’s our identity on offense” if they lose Saquon is symptomatic too.
The identity for the last few years has been more often than not it’s hard for the offense to even cross the 50. How about moving fhe football and scoring more points as an identity?
or the reality that most good rbs are high (day 2) picks. the guy they signed to replace him had been a day 2 pick.
as hopeful as we want to be re tyrone tracy the odds say most day 3 picks end up like eric gray and arent ready to contribute in year 1 if ever. before barkley there was a decade of proof in the form of paul perkins, wayne gallman, andre brown, andre williams, michael cox, darel scott, that finding ahmad bradshaw's isnt so simple.
JS “Daniel is making a lot of money and we need to figure out if he’s the guy”. How the fuck do you give him that contract if you don’t believe he is the guy?
Really seems like Mara pushed the jones contract after rewatching this
you can't be serious! The video clearly shows Mara pushed keeping BARKLEY and wanted to keep him again...
Unrelated. If you aren’t sure if jones is the guy you don’t sign him long-term to a massive contract
Tim McDonnell's Body Language in the only clip where he spoke
I wish we had a body language expert on this thread. From a quick google.
Quote:
The Mouth Guard:
The mouth guard is one of the few adult gestures that is as obvious as a child's. The hand covers the mouth and the thumb is pressed against the cheek as the brain sub-consciously instructs it to try and suppress the deceitful words that are being said. Sometimes this gesture may only be several fingers over the mouth or even a closed fist, but its meaning remains the same.
It was mixed messaging. There seemed genuine lines from Schoen about the reality of Jones not only being hurt, but being injury prone (history is the best way to predict the future).
But then there was the strong impression that they want him to have one more year because of the contract.
HOWEVER... we don't know what was edited out. Since they are "stuck" with Jones, they may not want to have released footage that said otherwise. And even if Jones was on the way out, they certainly wouldn't want to look low class (same with Wink, Saquon, Xavier, etc.).
The draft episode is going to be fascinating with how much they reveal about the trade-up opportunity and how they stitch together the narrative on why they drafted Nabers.
We are going to hear largely what they want us to hear.
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
I was fortunate enough to be able to screen next week's Hard Knocks episode, and while not providing any spoilers is part of the deal, I think overall Episode 2 is better than Episode 1 because of the content at the Combine. #Giants100
I'm actually relieved to see Mara and Schoen debating these topics behind closed doors, and Schoen having the authority to make a decision counter to his boss's wish.
The worst scenario is Mara expressing these feelings to the press, and whether he means to or not, putting indirect pressure on Schoen.
If he's putting direct pressure on Schoen, and he then allows him to make an autonomous decision, that is good.
Really cool episode and think Looking forward to episode 2. Nabers' response to not being involved early sure was interesting - would like to see the rest of that clip!
You don't test out whether a guy can sling it AFTER you make him the highest paid player in Giants history and one of the highest in the NFL. Mara deserves his share of the blame for drafting DJ, but I am thoroughly convinced now that the entire DJ and Saquon 2023 contract fiascoes rest squarely on Schoen. And from what I could glean from that first episode I would actually now be surprised if the Giants did in fact make a serious effort in trying to move up to draft Drake Maye.
And can someone please notify the Giants brass that the word "TRAIL", which is the acronym above the team's training facility, has precisely the wrong meaning for a team with championship aspirations. A better word would its antithesis, "LEAD".
Mike I agree. 82M isn't a test drive. At the risk of opening this can for the millionth time, guys like Smith and Mayfield are test drives. They got 27M and 40M respectively.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
Lol at fears of Mara micro-managing anything but a cup of prune juice
Mike I agree. 82M isn't a test drive. At the risk of opening this can for the millionth time, guys like Smith and Mayfield are test drives. They got 27M and 40M respectively.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Joe Schoen "history is the best way to predict the future"
Don't tell me Mara didn't play a big role in resigning Jones. As I've said in multiple threads, there is no way that after reviewing the first 4 years of Jones' career, Schoen and Daboll decided that "he's our guy".
or the reality that most good rbs are high (day 2) picks. the guy they signed to replace him had been a day 2 pick.
as hopeful as we want to be re tyrone tracy the odds say most day 3 picks end up like eric gray and arent ready to contribute in year 1 if ever. before barkley there was a decade of proof in the form of paul perkins, wayne gallman, andre brown, andre williams, michael cox, darel scott, that finding ahmad bradshaw's isnt so simple.
I somewhat agree. I have no problem going RB in the second at any time.
But also bad scouting and bad OL was a significant part of that era of bad RB picks. Some of those guys had NFL ability and were thrown into bad situations.
Mike I agree. 82M isn't a test drive. At the risk of opening this can for the millionth time, guys like Smith and Mayfield are test drives. They got 27M and 40M respectively.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
The way he said so matter of factly "we need to find out if he's our guy for the next ten years" speaks to me that he *wasnt* convinced and he sees that contract as not a firm commitment.
You don't test out whether a guy can sling it AFTER you make him the highest paid player in Giants history and one of the highest in the NFL. Mara deserves his share of the blame for drafting DJ, but I am thoroughly convinced now that the entire DJ and Saquon 2023 contract fiascoes rest squarely on Schoen. And from what I could glean from that first episode I would actually now be surprised if the Giants did in fact make a serious effort in trying to move up to draft Drake Maye.
And can someone please notify the Giants brass that the word "TRAIL", which is the acronym above the team's training facility, has precisely the wrong meaning for a team with championship aspirations. A better word would its antithesis, "LEAD".
Agreed on TRAIL... terrible messaging.
And as you said, at some point, you OWN the situation.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
Exactly. PIA for teams. "fun?" for some fans.
RE: RE: mara wasnt wrong about needing to draft a rb
or the reality that most good rbs are high (day 2) picks. the guy they signed to replace him had been a day 2 pick.
as hopeful as we want to be re tyrone tracy the odds say most day 3 picks end up like eric gray and arent ready to contribute in year 1 if ever. before barkley there was a decade of proof in the form of paul perkins, wayne gallman, andre brown, andre williams, michael cox, darel scott, that finding ahmad bradshaw's isnt so simple.
I somewhat agree. I have no problem going RB in the second at any time.
But also bad scouting and bad OL was a significant part of that era of bad RB picks. Some of those guys had NFL ability and were thrown into bad situations.
i dont recall any of them finding their way to other better situations and thriving.
and the bar for thriving isn't that high, when the nyg went out and signed rashad jennings that was a pretty big upgrade at the time and he was an entirely mediocre player.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
another W for Daboll - smart enough to avoid as much as he can.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
Tim McDonnell asked the best question of this episode.
Whats our offensive identity going to be without Saquon?
NFL front office isnt the place for yes men. Everyone knew what Joe Schoen wanted to do.
One of #Giants lieutenants HAD TO raise the counterpoint
This team's offensive identity during Barkley's tenure was "can't score at NFL average rate." Someone needs to ask him if that was the identity he was suggesting that needed to be recast.
"Great point, Tim. We are going to move from an inefficient offense that centers around Barkley, to an inefficient offense that centers around Jones. Who's printing the t-shirts?"
I am not taking away very much from the first episode
Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
RE: I am not taking away very much from the first episode
Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
But, Schoen shot that down. To me it just confirmed that he wanted Barkley in 2023 off season so badly that Giants gave MORE to Jones to mnake sure they could franchise Barkley. Schoen was not paying huge dollars to a RB (which would actually blow up the RB market) with decent to above average wear and tear and a history of being injured.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
RE: I am not taking away very much from the first episode
Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
My interpretation of that exchange was this:
Mara is still very old school and thinks RB is a premium position. So, Schoen, trying to be respectful, let Mara have his say, and then remind him there was other solutions in free agency that could help the team.
To me, that was one of the main reveals in Episode 1. This organization still has an inordinate number of old school thinking when it comes to building a team...
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
I don't think the Giants will have better QB options in the 2025 draft than they did in the 2024 draft - they likely won't be picking higher and there likely won't be several more top prospects - so if they do draft one it may be due in part to a greater sense of urgency. Who knows, maybe there will be 8 top-10 prospects and we they can just wait for any of them to fall?
I think there is just as much possibility that Daniel Jones plays out the full 4 year contract he signed as the Giants strater. All of these short term band-aid solutions may end up with Jones becoming a 10 year starter for this team while the Giants wait for the stars to align to deliver them there next Chosen One.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
I don't think the Giants will have better QB options in the 2025 draft than they did in the 2024 draft - they likely won't be picking higher and there likely won't be several more top prospects - so if they do draft one it may be due in part to a greater sense of urgency. Who knows, maybe there will be 8 top-10 prospects and we they can just wait for any of them to fall?
I think there is just as much possibility that Daniel Jones plays out the full 4 year contract he signed as the Giants strater. All of these short term band-aid solutions may end up with Jones becoming a 10 year starter for this team while the Giants wait for the stars to align to deliver them there next Chosen One.
The thought of ten years of Jones is a better vomit inducer than ipokak
Did Tim McDonnell current title, Director of Player Personnel look like a part of Schoen's inner circle like Brown, Hickey and Rossetti clearly are? Or did he seem to have a different relationship with Schoen than those other employees?
Did you see anything last night that would even give you a hint that this John Mara quote was true?
Quote:
"Tim is probably the most respected guy we have in this building. Coaches, front office staff and the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he is a good evaluator.
"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
If he doesn't have any authority than why would Dan Duggan write this in The Athletic?
Quote:
The comments from Mara and McDonnell show that there were influential skeptics of letting Barkley walk. The fact that the Giants ultimately did so supports Mara’s claim that he doesn’t strong-arm personnel decisions.
Tim Donnell influential skeptic with no authority, who by coincidence is next in line to succeed John Mara as President and Chief Executive Officer/Board Director of the New York Football Giants.
Did Tim McDonnell current title, Director of Player Personnel look like a part of Schoen's inner circle like Brown, Hickey and Rossetti clearly are? Or did he seem to have a different relationship with Schoen than those other employees?
Did you see anything last night that would even give you a hint that this John Mara quote was true?
Quote:
"Tim is probably the most respected guy we have in this building. Coaches, front office staff and the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he is a good evaluator.
"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
If he doesn't have any authority than why would Dan Duggan write this in The Athletic?
Quote:
The comments from Mara and McDonnell show that there were influential skeptics of letting Barkley walk. The fact that the Giants ultimately did so supports Mara’s claim that he doesn’t strong-arm personnel decisions.
Tim Donnell influential skeptic with no authority, who by coincidence is next in line to succeed John Mara as President and Chief Executive Officer/Board Director of the New York Football Giants.
No micromanaging here.
And yet has no decision making power as Barkley is not on the roster
And exactly how do you know he is being groomed to take over?
Seems like no matter the sport…you take issue with ownership no matter what the particular sport is
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
Art knows where is bread is buttered.
If you're wondering why there's so little of Daboll...
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
What is Mara supposed to do? Stand in the corner and say “yes boss”? He’s the president. He offers his opinion on big items. Just like the head of every other team or company in the world.
RE: RE: I am not taking away very much from the first episode
Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
My interpretation of that exchange was this:
Mara is still very old school and thinks RB is a premium position. So, Schoen, trying to be respectful, let Mara have his say, and then remind him there was other solutions in free agency that could help the team.
To me, that was one of the main reveals in Episode 1. This organization still has an inordinate number of old school thinking when it comes to building a team...
I interpreted the same thing. For all that most of the NFL already understands, Schoen has work to do in educating his management. They still view RB as a premium position.
I'm finding I agree with Schoen more and more. DJ has a chance to prove himself. Our OL was historically bad 0 the data was unrefutable. for our run gamne, for all 3 or our QBs, etc. . . . I'm hopeful that we see some improvement this year just due to our OL.
I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
What is Mara supposed to do? Stand in the corner and say “yes boss”? He’s the president. He offers his opinion on big items. Just like the head of every other team or company in the world.
The head of a company with this as it's 10 year performance portfolio.
He is *supposed* do what's best for the company. His calls are what led to this.
Hopefully what wasn't aired is Schoen and Mara coming to a mutual agreement. Schoen winning out is not a good outcome. If Barkley has a good year and the Giants don't, that's when things will get ugly. That's when the I told you so-s come into play.
I view excessive swearing by grown men as a sign of immaturity and insecurity. There were a couple scenes where every other word out of his mouth was an F bomb. Low class.
I view excessive swearing by grown men as a sign of immaturity and insecurity. There were a couple scenes where every other word out of his mouth was an F bomb. Low class.
Inn most (not all) companies I've been in, cursing internally isn't a problem and is taken in context. When I'm in charge, I'm fine (again internally) with it. That's the culture I want. I've also found with younger groups it's not even a thought.
And this is a football team. You expect guys to metaphorically kill the other team, but not curse?
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
I view excessive swearing by grown men as a sign of immaturity and insecurity. There were a couple scenes where every other word out of his mouth was an F bomb. Low class.
I’m not crazy about excessive swearing in the workplace but it has been part of the NFL culture for a long, long time. What surprised me is it wasn’t bleeped out - if memory serves that wasn’t the case on previous iterations of HK.
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
Ha. Guess none of you were sailors....
I agree that out in public using the F word is not a good look. Internally, among friends, who really gives a crap?
RE: RE: Agree, not a good look for Schoen with his mouth.
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
Ha. Guess none of you were sailors....
I agree that out in public using the F word is not a good look. Internally, among friends, who really gives a crap?
Depends on the company you keep. Or the company others choose to keep.
That the new DC said the two smartest players on the field need to be the inside linebackers or did you just focus on F words, Barkley and Jones and ignore anything else.
Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
I imagine that each industry has their own culture of language...
And in the sports industry, I'm quite certain that F-bombs are not only quite acceptable and natural, but are a form of communication that has a specific and unique purpose. As a high school teacher, in which I hear F-bombs regulary out of the mouths of students, I will maybe once or twice over the course of the year use it myself for effect. If I did it regularly it would make me a clown, but using it oh so rarely can be effective. When I worked on Wall Street, not only were F-bombs used regularly as adjectives, it was also not uncommon for it be used as a verb or even a noun. Wall Street execs love to get graphic when they are angry and when it comes to the movie industry, forget about it.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
Tim McDonnell asked the best question of this episode.
Whats our offensive identity going to be without Saquon?
NFL front office isnt the place for yes men. Everyone knew what Joe Schoen wanted to do.
One of #Giants lieutenants HAD TO raise the counterpoint
And here's my question (because I don't have HBO and am unable to hear the inflection in McDonnell's voice when asking the question), did he ask it as a question that he himself had or was it a case of pointing out to his boss that this is a question that needs to be asked and answered when making the decision?
Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
When I listen to Dan Campbell, I am actually shocked when he doesn't use profanity! He literally breathes f-bombs!
I remember watching the Cowboys several years ago on the Prime series "All or Nothing" and hearing Jason Garrett drop f-bombs left and right and couldn't help but feel like it was his way of trying to be a tough guy. It felt completely inauthentic and I can't imagine anyone would ever be "intimidated" by such obvious theatrics. In contrast, when the Colts were on Hard Knocks, Frank Reich, who is devoutly religious, never once used profanity. And he had complete control over that locker room.
In watching Joe Schoen use profanity, it felt to me out of place. Schoen is a cerebral buttoned up man of high character. Yes, using profanity prudently as required to make critical points on momentous occasions would be impactful. But him overusing f-bombs in every sentence just makes him look inauthentic and foolish.
Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
And yet this site is full of folks who likely never played a down of football feel themselves to be fully qualified to sound off on what the team does and does not do!
Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
And yet this site is full of folks who likely never played a down of football feel themselves to be fully qualified to sound off on what the team does and does not do!
I'm not sure you understand the purpose of a fan forum.
That's awesome ... in the fact that I've paid this team "little to no mind" since the 40-0 game, that's how very little I keep up with them anymore.
I've been busy living my own live and fighting off the ladies. No, seriously. Anyway. Just tap the skies when the Giants become worth anything and Daddy 9 will speak some more golden knowledge.
I am impressed with myself that I'm finding out about the Hard Knocks thing just now, lol.
First of all - Patriots were never going to trade that pick away. It made no sense - if they did, they would have robbed whoever they gave the pick too.
Second - Schoen said - let's give Jones a competent OL and give him a fair chance to prove it - or Pivot. Pivot is clearly not saying he's the future of the franchise.
Weakest link on O was the line - 2 years ago, they used 2 of 1st 3 picks on OL. This offseason they used much of FA $ on proven OL starters. You're not doing anything on offense until you fix the front five. and as they have been attempting that - they have added some skill players Robinson, Hyatt, and Nabers, Johnson, even Bellinger. Not sure what some of you guys expect.
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
this is correct. here was his player usage in TEN on the defense that stayed the healthiest and had the most success (2021). i think this is what would be considered close to his "ideal" personnel based on everything we've heard.
s kevin byard 1050 snaps (96%)
de harold landry 981 snaps (89%)
dl jeffrey simmons 932 (85%)
cb jackrabbit jenkins 861 (78%)
cb kristian fulton 737 (67%)
dl denico autry 709 (64%)
s amani hooker 704 (64%)
lb david long 634 (57%)
cb elijah molden 632 (57%)
note that this is:
3 pass rushers (likely to be burns, thibs, lawrence)
5 defensive backs (competition tbd)
1 linebacker (this will be okereke, not sure who wore green dot for him in 2021 but in 2023 it was shaair)
the other 10th/11th/12th most used players were an assortment rotating run defenders/2nd linebackers/pass rushers. rashaad evans, jayon brown, bud dupree, and a 6th db. these are likely to be mcfadden, simmons, jordan phillips, ojulari, nacho, etc.
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
He said the inside backers.
remember the context - he was talking about what he looks in for his defense so the personnel dept could go find more players for him. he wasn't going to say "i only need 1 smart inside linebacker so we are set because we have okereke". i think he was describing generally the traits most important for any inside linebacker on the roster, not necessarily the importance of deploying 2 of them on the field at the same as a specifically key element of his defense. as eric pointed out his history does not suggest that he's done that.
It’s the an acronym which looms above and behind all the players in their nyg meeting room. Trail? Mission accomplished, because that is all they have done for ten years…trailing the league in all categories….it’s got to be improved…… how about: “K.S.A.” (Kick Some Ass).
That might be the dumbest thing I've seen in a while as a motivation tool/phrase.
remember the context - he was talking about what he looks in for his defense so the personnel dept could go find more players for him. he wasn't going to say "i only need 1 smart inside linebacker so we are set because we have okereke". i think he was describing generally the traits most important for any inside linebacker on the roster, not necessarily the importance of deploying 2 of them on the field at the same as a specifically key element of his defense. as eric pointed out his history does not suggest that he's done that.
Yes - thanks for posting the percentages. Super curious to see the packages we open camp with now that Bowen's seen everypne in OTAs.
After watching the episode is that the Front Office is undecided on whether Jones is the Franchise QB. Here are 4 quotes from Schoen about Jones in the episode, two positive and two negative:
(+) "He didn't have much of a chance this year... You could have Pat Mahomes and he can't f-ing win behind that (O-line)" (+) "I'm not giving up on him. He's under contract for 3 more years."
vs. (-) "3 Serious Injuries in 2 years. We need to protect ourselves because best predictor of the future is the past" (-) "Is he our guy for the next 10 years? Or do we need to pivot and find somebody else?"
IMO the waffling back and forth on Jones has been the biggest weakness of the Schoen era. The quotes from the show match up to the actions taken from this front office. Here's a quick recap since Schoen took over as GM:
2022 - Decline the 5th year option, we're moving on at QB. 2023 - Actually, we were wrong. Here's $160MM over the next 4 years. 2024 - Oh no, we were wrong again. Neck and ACL injuries are very concerning. He's gotta prove that he's worth the contract we gave him. 2025+ - Pray he's the Franchise QB, else we pivot.
Declining Jones' 5th year option was one of the 1st major decisions by Schoen. Here were the different options at the time:
(A) Decline option -> QB proves it in 2022 -> New contract
(B) Decline option -> QB doesn't prove it in 2022 -> Pivot to someone else
(C) Pick up the 2023 option (for ~$27M) to play out the 2022 & 2023 seasons -> Decide to cut bait or give out new contract
In hindsight (C) would have been the best choice, as he would have played 2023 on a 'prove-it' year rather than 2022. That would have given the front office more valuable information, such as the three serious injuries in two years. It would have allowed us to move on from Jones in 2024 with a clean financial slate. But instead he went with option (A) as Jones showed enough in 2022 to merit the $160MM 4 year contract. Schoen can't be blamed for drafting Jones, but he should take the blame for giving him the 2nd contract.
By his 2nd year as Buffalo's Assistant GM Schoen had already drafted Allen to be the Franchise QB. But now in year #3 of the NYG Schoen era we've given Top 10 money to a QB who probably isn't a franchise QB. We cannot realistically get out of his contract until 2025 at the earliest (and that will involve lots of dead cap), so this upcoming season is essentially 2022 all over again: a make or break 'prove-it' year for Jones.
i think the thing i agree with most w/r/t schoen is that he tends to be a little more reactive than proactive. barkley saga is another example of that. avoiding more drama this year was the only decision after indulging so much last year. had he been more proactive maybe he could have been the gm to get devin singletary for $2m last year, plus maybe some draft picks trading barkley 1 year younger off a good healthy season.
in such a year to year league i dont think reactive is the worst "negative" though.
No, stupid is the worst negative. Like giving Daniel Jones that
Declining Jones' 5th year option was one of the 1st major decisions by Schoen. Here were the different options at the time:
(A) Decline option -> QB proves it in 2022 -> New contract
(B) Decline option -> QB doesn't prove it in 2022 -> Pivot to someone else
(C) Pick up the 2023 option (for ~$27M) to play out the 2022 & 2023 seasons -> Decide to cut bait or give out new contract
In hindsight (C) would have been the best choice, as he would have played 2023 on a 'prove-it' year rather than 2022. That would have given the front office more valuable information, such as the three serious injuries in two years. It would have allowed us to move on from Jones in 2024 with a clean financial slate. But instead he went with option (A) as Jones showed enough in 2022 to merit the $160MM 4 year contract. Schoen can't be blamed for drafting Jones, but he should take the blame for giving him the 2nd contract.
Schoen owns that contract for sure. If you add in your view on how Schoen handled the 5th year option, Schoen has mismanaged the QB issue three straight years.
I tend to give Schoen a pass on not picking up the 5th year option - a reasonable case can be made to decline it - but the new contract and making the decision to roll with Jones into 2024 were bad conclusions, IMV. And it makes me question Schoen remaining as GM.
Brandon Beane always struck me as a GM who practices the philosophy "fortune favors the brave". He goes for it. I was hoping much of that rubbed off on Schoen.
but that is why we have been a disaster since Accorsi retired. Schoen has experience as does Brown. Whether they make the right moves is up in the air. If Daniel Jones flops their run is over. Having only one person of color in the room in todays NFL stuck out to me. How many of the other guys are nepo? Maybe this is the way in all NFL brain trusts. No former players in the room. Not one? Not one is qualified to offer advice? Why isn't Carl Banks in the room to give his perspective? We look rudderless in my opinion as Mara hovers over it all.
Brandon Beane always struck me as a GM who practices the philosophy "fortune favors the brave". He goes for it. I was hoping much of that rubbed off on Schoen.
He's going for it with Daniel Jones, Brian Burns, and Malik Nabers.
Tom in MA, your analysis is based on the premise that Schoen declining Jones option meant he wanted to move on at QB.
But that's false. Because Jones wasn't Schoen's pick, and it was weeks after Schoen's hiring, declining the option was the default decision for any new GM.
It seems clear to me that Schoen really wanted to move on from Saquon.
I believe he thought it was the best football decision but he really didnt want to go another offseason having to discuss it with Saquon again. Barkley was making it about “respect” and Schoen was making a business decision. He knew the money he would offer would just piss Saquon off.
It’s another reason why being a GM is a very difficult job, especially if you are not an asshole.
It seems clear to me that Schoen really wanted to move on from Saquon.
I believe he thought it was the best football decision but he really didnt want to go another offseason having to discuss it with Saquon again. Barkley was making it about “respect” and Schoen was making a business decision. He knew the money he would offer would just piss Saquon off.
It’s another reason why being a GM is a very difficult job, especially if you are not an asshole.
Totally agree. It wasn't just the money either. I think Schoen's like BBI -- ready to move on from all the crap that comes with "face of the franchise" and uninterested in rerunning the same offensive script. And some scarring from being worn out a year ago trying to make it work.
For those (like me) that don’t have HBO/Max and didn’t see the first episode of the Giants Hard Knocks series… I just found it on YouTube and linked it below.
but that is why we have been a disaster since Accorsi retired. Schoen has experience as does Brown. Whether they make the right moves is up in the air. If Daniel Jones flops their run is over. Having only one person of color in the room in today’s NFL stuck out to me. How many of the other guys are nepo? Maybe this is the way in all NFL brain trusts. No former players in the room. Not one? Not one is qualified to offer advice? Why isn't Carl Banks in the room to give his perspective? We look rudderless in my opinion as Mara hovers over it all.
Yet another rocket scientist playing the race card
It seems clear to me that Schoen really wanted to move on from Saquon.
I believe he thought it was the best football decision but he really didnt want to go another offseason having to discuss it with Saquon again. Barkley was making it about “respect” and Schoen was making a business decision. He knew the money he would offer would just piss Saquon off.
It’s another reason why being a GM is a very difficult job, especially if you are not an asshole.
Even more difficult when your boss can't see things the way they should.
Anytime you want on Max. Although I plan to tune in at 9. First example of "appointment tv" in a long time for me.
If you're on the East Coast, probably at 9pm. I know that HotD episodes are available right when the show airs. And I think Bill Maher's show (which is live on the East Coast) is available within a few minutes of it going off the air.
Schoen handled it well
*ducks for cover*
One wonders what was edited out at the team's request.
You can see why it made sense to let him walk
Schoen handled it well
McDonnell pushed for Barkley too.
Sure. It shows you how they handle FA.
Sigh
Hahahaha, did he really? Never heard that before, but if true, that’s hysterical.
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was MIA for much of this... I assume because he detests this stuff and as he said publicly, he played copyrighted music so they couldn't tape him.
Hahahaha, did he really? Never heard that before, but if true, that’s hysterical.
Yes, he just said it at the Legends event.
I don’t see how we’ve protected ourselves much.
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was MIA for much of this... I assume because he detests this stuff and as he said publicly, he played copyrighted music so they couldn't tape him.
He said they did that at the legends night when he and Joe were talking he would play music on his phone
Hahahaha, did he really? Never heard that before, but if true, that’s hysterical.
Schoen handled it well
I knew that was gonna be the reaction to that scene, but I didn’t really think it rised to the level of meddling. I think that conversation happens in every GM office with every owner who has their favorite players.
What I found more interesting was McDonell’s concern about losing their offensive identity with Saquon. Clearly Schoen has a different vision for what NFL offense should look like/be constructed.
I found it concerning Schoen had to tell McDonell you don’t have “a $40 million a year guy hand off to a running back making $12 million”
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was MIA for much of this... I assume because he detests this stuff and as he said publicly, he played copyrighted music so they couldn't tape him.
Hahahaha, did he really? Never heard that before, but if true, that’s hysterical.
He said they did that at the legends night when he and Joe were talking he would play music on his phone
2) let your $40 QB sling it
3) if he can't stay healthy or can't perform he's out
Not a huge revelation but good to see it articulated.
You Can see why we are where we are sadly.
I don’t see how we’ve protected ourselves much.
Well, certainly wasn’t for lack of trying, was it?
2) let your $40 QB sling it
3) if he can't stay healthy or can't perform he's out
Not a huge revelation but good to see it articulated.
I thought the most revealing comment was from Schoen in the meeting with Bowen where he said they needed a #1 WR, a pass rusher, and a cornerback.
Something to keep in mind moving forward. They got two of the three.
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At QB and yet we’ve run it back while swapping out Taylor for Drew Lock.
I don’t see how we’ve protected ourselves much.
Well, certainly wasn’t for lack of trying, was it?
That’s certainly debatable.
The last nugget with Daniel Jones makes sense and what many viewed how it would unfold. 2024 was always a pivotal year for the Giants offense and Jones. He wasn't getting cut. A rookie coming in makes it about 2025. If he performs well, even, they can restructure and move money around. They can still look at future draft(s) and other pieces at the same time.
The last nugget with Daniel Jones makes sense and what many viewed how it would unfold. 2024 was always a pivotal year for the Giants offense and Jones. He wasn't getting cut. A rookie coming in makes it about 2025. If he performs well, even, they can restructure and move money around. They can still look at future draft(s) and other pieces at the same time.
My favorite moment was Daboll's comment about getting a DC who can figure out run defense.
Schoen was not happy with Barkley's camp from last year.
Singletary was high on their list
Very curious to see their, especially Mara, reaction of landing in Philly. Losing Barkley and finding another playmaker.
Seems like Schoen old friend and current Carolina GM exposed his hand early.
A stud DT to play along side Dex will be high on their list next year......and how is that not a competitive disadvantage?
Daboll is high on the DC.....we can only hope.
Those were sweet!
I know the Giants had editorial control, but I get the sense that Jones is going to be asked to air it out. He'll either perform or he won't and they'll move on in 2025.
He knows he's the paying the guy a lot of money, and wants to see if he can succeed.
The Giants weren't replacing Jones.
I know the Giants had editorial control, but I get the sense that Jones is going to be asked to air it out. He'll either perform or he won't and they'll move on in 2025.
That's been obvious for some time now. The OL moves are pass blockers, they drafted Nabers, they let Saquon go, they drafted a pass receiving TE.
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I thought the most revealing comment was from Schoen in the meeting with Bowen where he said they needed a #1 WR, a pass rusher, and a cornerback.
Something to keep in mind moving forward. They got two of the three.
Well, they did draft a CB in the third round...after using their 1st pick last year. I think they're doing all they can considering other needs...
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In comment 16547524 DavidinBMNY said:
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I thought the most revealing comment was from Schoen in the meeting with Bowen where he said they needed a #1 WR, a pass rusher, and a cornerback.
Something to keep in mind moving forward. They got two of the three.
Well, they did draft a CB in the third round...after using their 1st pick last year. I think they're doing all they can considering other needs...
Usually when a personnel guys says CB, he means outside CB, not nickel.
And I'm not convinced that Bowen has plans for Simmons or Anderson or Basham just because their names were mentioned in clips.
1. DJ was always the plan for 2024. QB trade up was likely considered, but doubt it was serious.
2. Fix the Oline in FA
3. Find an impact pass rusher
4. Let Saquon walk, sign a cheaper vet, and reallocate to OL/pass rush
5. Draft an offensive weapon at 6
I'm excited to see the draft talk because we will find out a lot. But maybe they will hide some information or rumors - who knows.
Maye could have very easily been a target or of heavy interest by either Schoen, Daboll or both. Drafting him signifies he's their future QB but not necessarily for 2024.
We'll find out more next week. I think it confirms it was Maye or bust. But, they won't portray that in the episode.
The big takeaway to me: "We aren't paying the QB $40M to hand it off to a $12M RB." Jones will be asked to air it out this season.
He's the owner. He writes the checks. The GM is accountable to him. Why shouldnt he have an ear on what is going on with the franchise he owns?
I would not be surprised to see them add a pass rushing IDL at cut downs or before the season
You Can see why we are where we are sadly.
makes perfectly good sense why they think this way. Barkley was the STAR player and the face of the franchise. The franchise is a business.. so now HOW to we pivot if that face is gone..
Imagine the Knicks if Jalen Bruson up and left in a year or two.
Thats how owners think..
Its funny but I can tell some of you guys dont work directly with the owner of a business on a day to day basis. In my job this goes on EVERY day.
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In comment 16547520 Chris684 said:
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At QB and yet we’ve run it back while swapping out Taylor for Drew Lock.
I don’t see how we’ve protected ourselves much.
Well, certainly wasn’t for lack of trying, was it?
That’s certainly debatable.
Two smartass reactions by part time fans who probably stopped watching when Jones went down.
Taylor clearly was not capable of being a starting QB for more than 1 or 2 games and was on the downside of his career. At least Lock is capable of starting for more than one half season and if his career is not still rising, it isn’t falling.
I thought Schoen and Hickey came across very well.
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Video. A lot of meat in there. Large portion of it was discussing Saquon, the free agent backs and how hiring Shane Bowen and incorporating his style of players into his defense fits. We do see the team look into FA early which was obviously the best decision and to let an older, oft injured player walk. Singletary isn't here to be a bellcow and I look forward to future episodes where they finally get to the draft, i.e. the Tyrone Tracy addition and how the run game becomes more about the committee.
The last nugget with Daniel Jones makes sense and what many viewed how it would unfold. 2024 was always a pivotal year for the Giants offense and Jones. He wasn't getting cut. A rookie coming in makes it about 2025. If he performs well, even, they can restructure and move money around. They can still look at future draft(s) and other pieces at the same time.
My favorite moment was Daboll's comment about getting a DC who can figure out run defense.
NFL Films didn't start filming till March. The few earlier clips were from Giants in-house media but weren't made for the show.
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In comment 16547531 Toth029 said:
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Video. A lot of meat in there. Large portion of it was discussing Saquon, the free agent backs and how hiring Shane Bowen and incorporating his style of players into his defense fits. We do see the team look into FA early which was obviously the best decision and to let an older, oft injured player walk. Singletary isn't here to be a bellcow and I look forward to future episodes where they finally get to the draft, i.e. the Tyrone Tracy addition and how the run game becomes more about the committee.
The last nugget with Daniel Jones makes sense and what many viewed how it would unfold. 2024 was always a pivotal year for the Giants offense and Jones. He wasn't getting cut. A rookie coming in makes it about 2025. If he performs well, even, they can restructure and move money around. They can still look at future draft(s) and other pieces at the same time.
My favorite moment was Daboll's comment about getting a DC who can figure out run defense.
I found that one line, pretty intriguing, given Winks approach,
Yup there was some angst in that comment from Daboll
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Video. A lot of meat in there. Large portion of it was discussing Saquon, the free agent backs and how hiring Shane Bowen and incorporating his style of players into his defense fits. We do see the team look into FA early which was obviously the best decision and to let an older, oft injured player walk. Singletary isn't here to be a bellcow and I look forward to future episodes where they finally get to the draft, i.e. the Tyrone Tracy addition and how the run game becomes more about the committee.
The last nugget with Daniel Jones makes sense and what many viewed how it would unfold. 2024 was always a pivotal year for the Giants offense and Jones. He wasn't getting cut. A rookie coming in makes it about 2025. If he performs well, even, they can restructure and move money around. They can still look at future draft(s) and other pieces at the same time.
My favorite moment was Daboll's comment about getting a DC who can figure out run defense.
Still noticing a striking lack of Ryan Cowden emphasis/involvement. And I was expecting him to step into the assistant GM role once Brandon Brown eventually gets hired away. Not so sure about that. Hoping it is not Tim McConnell.
I think Schoen commented that Barkley will be better behind an OL like they have in Detroit or Philly. Meaning, he’s worth more to them, while the Giants needed to allocate money away from RB to help fix the OL
Related note, but we’ve been “fixing” the OL for over a decade now. Fingers crossed Schoen gets it done, but they tried to last year and it was a debacle
Maybe not being the lowest scoring team in the NFL
You Can see why we are where we are sadly.
This exactly.
McDonnell particularly came across as the nepo-baby empty suit that he is.
When he said that Mahomes couldn't win behind the Giants OL - I believe he may have been referencing the Miami game as an example - that probably made quite a number of posters feel good around here...
If Schoen actually considered the notion of signing and trading Barkley with the FT #2, I find it even more befuddling they didn't trade him at the deadline in 2023.
I thought Schoen and Hickey came across very well.
Rossetti did nail Philly as a team who would pay SB what he wants. Also, they clearly only showed him discussing the top players at specific positions. That guy makes his money finding and presenting value in the next tiers. He probably led hours of meetings reviewing options. We saw what, 5 minutes of it?
Correction: How about you give me 2 firsts for Brian Burns?
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that doesn’t want to micromanage, but does anyway. When Schoen told him Daniel makes a lot of money it sounded like that was Mara’s doing also. “Fork in the road” was an apt metaphor.
He's the owner. He writes the checks. The GM is accountable to him. Why shouldnt he have an ear on what is going on with the franchise he owns?
I think the indication is that it seems that Schoen was pointing out Mara that the Mara was the one how pushed for the Jones contract. Schoen pointed out the same thing to McDonnell, basically "Hey, you guys want Jones at $40 million, this is what the result of that is..."
Stuck in the 90s. Omg.
Usually when a personnel guys says CB, he means outside CB, not nickel.
Agreed. To be fair though, I think most scouts viewed Phillips as an outside guy. He lined up at nickel in the spring but I'm hoping he graduates from there...
That’s exactly how I read it too.
Schoen is systematically pulling apart the Mara idiocy.
1) Remove Barkley
2) Prove Jones can or can’t succeed. Past history says he won’t.
After 3 years Schoen will finally have his clean slate. What immense time lost. It’s sad Schoen has to play a game within a game to placate the nepotistic idiots who own the team, but not difficult to see who has kept us in this mess.
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“What will our identity be if we lose Barkley”. JFC
Stuck in the 90s. Omg.
People seem very confused about this exchange. Unless you want sycophants nodding along with every one of Schoen's utterances, you need someone in the room willing to stand up and present the opposing argument.
Whether or not the fans find his point compelling couldn't be less relevant.
I'm hoping we get to see some draft behind-the-scenes stuff.
Weird quote from Mara in the segement about FA RB : “I wouldn’t commit to that, though” as Schoen finishes listing the plethora of FA RB’s who are available
They had to pay him and at the same time fix the lack of a pass rush; as it turned out, Carolina GAVE them Burns.
Disagree about Saquon, lal of them understood that they're not one "home run hitter" away from the Super Bowl. If they'd franchise tagged him, they would have had to give him money they didn't have and would have a resentful player in the locker room.
We didn't have anywhere close to a decent offense WITH him Mara. Get your head out of your ass.
When he said that Mahomes couldn't win behind the Giants OL - I believe he may have been referencing the Miami game as an example - that probably made quite a number of posters feel good around here...
If Schoen actually considered the notion of signing and trading Barkley with the FT #2, I find it even more befuddling they didn't trade him at the deadline in 2023.
It was mixed messaging. There seemed genuine lines from Schoen about the reality of Jones not only being hurt, but being injury prone (history is the best way to predict the future).
But then there was the strong impression that they want him to have one more year because of the contract.
HOWEVER... we don't know what was edited out. Since they are "stuck" with Jones, they may not want to have released footage that said otherwise. And even if Jones was on the way out, they certainly wouldn't want to look low class (same with Wink, Saquon, Xavier, etc.).
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Usually when a personnel guys says CB, he means outside CB, not nickel.
Agreed. To be fair though, I think most scouts viewed Phillips as an outside guy. He lined up at nickel in the spring but I'm hoping he graduates from there...
I'm pretty sure the opposite is true. He was viewed as a nickel, who could also play outside.
Was it an attempted coup on his part?
Was it an attempted coup on his part?
I doubt the cameras were even set up in the building when the Wink stuff went down, right after the season. Even if the team didn't have editorial control, the best you could hope for was hearing one side of the story.
2. feel like we got really lucky with his relationship w/ morgan re Burns. I was again agreeing with Rossetti when he guessed the trade price at a first+. still cant believe they got him for basically a 2nd rd pick. very cool to see how those conversations got sparked 2 months before the deal.
3. it's hard to get a read on the jones comments because they were contradictory. he is obviously correct when he says "they didnt pay him to hand the ball off" and "we committed to 2 years". contract very clearly articulated that. on flip side his comments about the past being the best predictor and the 3 injuries are just as valid. cant wait to see the draft discussions re qbs, and even any commentary on lock/devito.
4. daboll always comes off more likeable than schoen for me, we didnt see him much in this episode but his decision on bowen will end up being 1 of the handful of make or break decisions of the season. im guardedly optimistic bc it's a logical choice but a little worried about bowen flying solo without vrabel/schwartz. that whole unit literally riding on him.
5. agree with eric the mention of CB as a top need is interesting. not totally unexpected since they visited both tredavious white and darious williams. that is still a spot that may need a veteran, though it may be something they feel they can find after camp begins if players arent stepping up. Fabian Moureau was a week 2 vet. some decent ones still out there in FA. i hope they arent overrating their young guys but if they are at least mccloud/herndon/long/holmes/mills have a lot of game experience.
When he said that Mahomes couldn't win behind the Giants OL - I believe he may have been referencing the Miami game as an example - that probably made quite a number of posters feel good around here...
If Schoen actually considered the notion of signing and trading Barkley with the FT #2, I find it even more befuddling they didn't trade him at the deadline in 2023.
I see it completely different. He's pissed off he's paying him $40M and he better deliver this year through airing it out. He referenced $40M multiple times almost in a tone that he was annoyed.
There was the exchange with Brown and McDonnell where Schoen talks about needing to address QB mainly given Jones' injuries. I'm sure Maye was the guy they targeted, but they'll edit that out I imagine. Next week focuses on QB.
The sense I got it Schoen is pissed off he's paying him $40M.
My favorite moment was Daboll's comment about getting a DC who can figure out run defense.
That stood out to me too. Pretty clear which part of Wink's scheme Daboll was unimpressed with.
Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. One episode in and already can see we are fucked without Schoen’s team in the building. The Mara family appearances were underwhelming at best.
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footage, and if there was genuine interest in Maye, but this first episode re-confirms my belief all along that Schoen has always been very comfortable with Jones as his QB. And did I hear Schoen say they had a three-year plan with Jones...?
When he said that Mahomes couldn't win behind the Giants OL - I believe he may have been referencing the Miami game as an example - that probably made quite a number of posters feel good around here...
If Schoen actually considered the notion of signing and trading Barkley with the FT #2, I find it even more befuddling they didn't trade him at the deadline in 2023.
I see it completely different. He's pissed off he's paying him $40M and he better deliver this year through airing it out. He referenced $40M multiple times almost in a tone that he was annoyed.
There was the exchange with Brown and McDonnell where Schoen talks about needing to address QB mainly given Jones' injuries. I'm sure Maye was the guy they targeted, but they'll edit that out I imagine. Next week focuses on QB.
The sense I got it Schoen is pissed off he's paying him $40M.
He’s got only himself to blame for that though.
I think it’s mix of both your opinions. Schoen is comfortable with Jones until he is able to find the QB he wants. That may mean Jones is the starting QB in the fall of 2025 as well.
Morgan’s friendship with Schoen is probably what lowered the draft cost for the Giants. I’d be a bit annoyed watching this series if I were a Panthers fan.
I don’t see how someone doesn’t hire Brandon Brown as a GM sometime soon - and I love how in sync he is with Schoen.
Also - anyone else yell at Schoen to have at least one hand on the wheel when eating & driving?
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“What will our identity be if we lose Barkley”. JFC
Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. One episode in and already can see we are fucked without Schoen’s team in the building. The Mara family appearances were underwhelming at best.
100%. I cringed listening to the Mara family. They are clueless
I knew Schoen's staff was young but man Rossetti and Brandon Brown look like kids. Maybe its just I'm getting old. The thing is the youngest one's in the room are the sharpest so there's that.
I knew everyone was gonna jump on McDonnell's comment and it was stupid. However the concept of it wasn't, but they were asking the wrong question. "identity" is a stupid buzzword. The correct, fair question would be in a league full of playmakers who else in our room is one? Saquon was our best one by far. Now I'm all in favor of how it shook out, it was time to part ways, and obviously we answered the playmaker thing at #6 but it would have been fair to ask at that moment.
On the flip side of the young thing the other big thing that struck me was how old and feeble John Mara looked in casual conversation. Its like talking to your 90 year old grandma about football.
Everyone is spot on reading the Jones situation. That episode made it clear that any concept of Lock coming in here and having a legit chance to win the starting job is utter nonsense. If healthy its clearly Jones.
It is amazing with how young Schoen is how much experience he has starting at the very bottom. It must be galling to someone like him when some former player retires and steps right into the front office.
Can't wait for the draft/free agency stuff. That's gonna be fun.
We won't find that out.
They're all-in on DJ, after all.
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My favorite moment was Daboll's comment about getting a DC who can figure out run defense.
That stood out to me too. Pretty clear which part of Wink's scheme Daboll was unimpressed with.
Me too. And those clips of Pollard gashing the Giants D was a painful reminder.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
ITs clear the injury situation last year effected everything they wanted to do and that they were taking the focus off the running back position and moving it back to the D and the passing game.. This is clearly Dans yr to make it or break it with a brand new OL that has an ability to protect for longer than 1 sec.. They have / had a plan and followed it thru hopefully we get better results.. I am a fan of Schoen very smart. MAra clearly waw thinking draft RB if dont sign SQ but he wanted to sign SQ -Joe wanted nothing to do with it. used the money freed up wisely
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
There was a middle ground between franchise and $40 million though. He could have let him find a deal on the open market and matched or exceeded it and it still probably doesn’t break $30 million. The $40 million is squarely on Joe’s shoulders.
My observation is Schoen is lukewarm on Jones and would upgrade if he got the chance but is fine with him if his ceiling is 2022 Jones until the contract is up.
Look at Maras face during the discussion with Schoen over cost of Barkley and how much Mara wanted to keep him. It is clear to me that Schoen and Daboll were willing to pay more (creatively) to keep Jones so the FT could be used on Barkley.
Schoen even said the idea was Jones had a few years to prove himself worth it or we move on (that confirms the out they built into the contract) and the fact that Barkley wasn't the guy Schoen and Daboll wanted to build the entire offense upon.
This idea of what will the offense be without Barkley makes me laugh.. With Barkley it scored the lowest points in a season since 1979.. What are we losing? I know it isn't all on Barkley but this idea that he is so irreplaceable is comical.
It is also very telling that Schoen and Daboll clearly know the Oline and talent outside was not up to snuff..
I like our new DC, he comes in with an idea and a plan for what he wants the defense to be. I think we will see Thibs, Burns, Ojulari and Lawrence a lot on passing downs.
I was also underwhelmed by Abrams, glad he’s not the GM.
Was it an attempted coup on his part?
What is abundantly clear is Daboll was fed up w the D not being able to stop the run
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I'm not so sure. Look at the way Mara talked about Barkley in the episode. I'm confident he was even more vocal about wanting Barkley back in 2022 off a playoff win. That's a tough spot for a first time GM.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
There was a middle ground between franchise and $40 million though. He could have let him find a deal on the open market and matched or exceeded it and it still probably doesn’t break $30 million. The $40 million is squarely on Joe’s shoulders.
My observation is Schoen is lukewarm on Jones and would upgrade if he got the chance but is fine with him if his ceiling is 2022 Jones until the contract is up.
Complete agreement. Schoen let Team Jones dictate negotiations and he should never have said he wanted him back before negotiations began. I hope Schoen has learned from that miscalculation.
I was also underwhelmed by Abrams, glad he’s not the GM.
What was a little odd is we know the Giants had rights to edit what was shown - it’s almost as if they insisted on including scenes with Mara (he’s the owner, I get that), McDonnell and Abrams to show they’re actively involved.
But based on what was shown, while it’s Schoen’s front office, part of his job is allowing the Mara loyalists a voice, while at times having to tactfully manage around them
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I'm not so sure. Look at the way Mara talked about Barkley in the episode. I'm confident he was even more vocal about wanting Barkley back in 2022 off a playoff win. That's a tough spot for a first time GM.
I'm pretty confident in assuming Schoen would have preferred to franchise Jones and let Barkley walk after 2022. Thus the "$40M" comments. It's clear he doesn't value RB, why did he value it enough a year before to franchise him then?
I don't think Mara is a huge meddler, but when it comes to marketable stars he definitely lets his opinion known. I'd also guess that Mara made it clear he didn't want Barkley traded at the deadline either.
There was a middle ground between franchise and $40 million though. He could have let him find a deal on the open market and matched or exceeded it and it still probably doesn’t break $30 million. The $40 million is squarely on Joe’s shoulders.
My observation is Schoen is lukewarm on Jones and would upgrade if he got the chance but is fine with him if his ceiling is 2022 Jones until the contract is up.
You're correct that Schoen was/is less than hot and bothered about Jones -- but that's not news. The contract structure showed it. And Schoen even verbalized it was always the plan to give DJ two years to prove he's the man for 10 years or pivot.
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
What's interesting is McConnell didn't strike me as someone who had much belief in Jones. Asking what the identity of the offense without Barkley is.
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1) fix the OL
2) let your $40 QB sling it
3) if he can't stay healthy or can't perform he's out
Not a huge revelation but good to see it articulated.
I thought the most revealing comment was from Schoen in the meeting with Bowen where he said they needed a #1 WR, a pass rusher, and a cornerback.
Something to keep in mind moving forward. They got two of the three.
Well, they did in the draft at corner, but it's an easy thing to say you need to do, but with Burns and Nabers, they may have hot home runs with those 2 needs.
What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
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that doesn’t want to micromanage, but does anyway. When Schoen told him Daniel makes a lot of money it sounded like that was Mara’s doing also. “Fork in the road” was an apt metaphor.
He's the owner. He writes the checks. The GM is accountable to him. Why shouldnt he have an ear on what is going on with the franchise he owns?
Because all of his knowledge and experience in football is inheriting a football team. He has no background in scouting or coaching and has demonstrated no talent for understanding what he is watching. “Who knew Jerrel Jernigan could play?”
As he explained, he should only be involved in personnel decisions when it comes to the image of the franchise. Seemingly he interprets that as “Keep the guys that are good with the media and the community and try to build a winner around them.”
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What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
It doesn't work that way with your starting QB. You DON'T let them test the market unless you want them gone. That would be NFL GM 101.
The fact is Schoen bought a year option when he declined year 5. NFL cap dynamics drove up the price a bit, as always at QB. Speaking of, this years QB tag price is $38.3MM.
That is your experience with owners who did not work in the industry in which their business operates? That happens, but it is certainly not common. Even in family run businesses, the children usually grow up working in the business to understand it. What is John Mara’s scouting and coaching background?
Really seems like Mara pushed the jones contract after rewatching this
I really like the banter so far between Joe and his staff. Seems very open, even though we are only seeing 1 minute of what are probably hour long conversations.
Agreed. I'll be interested to see if we get to know how serious the Giants were about Maye. This first episode makes me believe that Sy was correct in that we weren't going all out for a QB unless he was there at six making JJ the only realistic option if the evals gave him a first round grade.
The Hard Knocks preview for the next episode did show J.J. McCarthy, so maybe we get to learn more about the amount of time spent with him and hopefully a glimpse into the evaluation process.
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In comment 16547697 HBart said:
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What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
It doesn't work that way with your starting QB. You DON'T let them test the market unless you want them gone. That would be NFL GM 101.
The fact is Schoen bought a year option when he declined year 5. NFL cap dynamics drove up the price a bit, as always at QB. Speaking of, this years QB tag price is $38.3MM.
Do you believe Jones would have gotten that amount of money (or more) from another NFL team?
Really seems like Mara pushed the jones contract after rewatching this
To me this speaks to the organization’s view of the position - you select a QB and he is your franchise guy until he clearly demonstrates he can’t be. Jones has never had to prove he is a franchise QB. He has had to avoid showing he isn’t a franchise QB. 2022 reset the discussion for the Giants so now we have to have that discussion again in 2024.
To me, the question is this - what can Jones do in 2024 that makes you think that is the QB you will see consistently going forward and the first 5 years were the mis-reading? Even if Jones plays really well in 2024, why would you trust him to do it again in 2025 and 2026?
The Giants have a confirmation bias with Daniel Jones and giving him opportunity after opportunity where negative outcomes say nothing about him and positive outcomes are because of him is a very dangerous way to stay in this QB hell of their own design.
The Giants should be asking themselves what Jones has done to secure another year rather than around how many years they “give” him.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
If that were the case, why wouldn’t Mara want Barkely playing in Philadelphia behind a better Oline with a chance to shine brighter than he ever did in NY?
Mara clearly wants Barkely to be a star for the Giants, not the NFL.
Yep. Comes across as a clueless spoiled brat. Mara also doesn’t come across well either. His affinity for jones and at the time Barkley pretty much affirms what many here suspected.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
isn't one kind of related to the other? the literal job descriptions of most everyone in any FO below GM is focusing on individual players.
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
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In comment 16547704 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 16547697 HBart said:
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What's incorrect is middle ground on the contract. The alternative was tagging Jones for $32 million. As I think Eric in Li put it, there is no universe where a guy in line for a tag signs a lesser deal. Especially at QB, where contracts consistently reset upward based on the last deal.
While that may be true, the sample size of QBs to get their 5th year option declined and then sign a long term deal at the tag or higher is basically non existent. Jones wasn’t getting a contract equal to the tag number from anyone else on the open market. The Giants knew they were tagging Barkley, they could have let Jones go out to the open market and find a deal to match or exceed and it wouldn’t have came in higher than $30 million.
It doesn't work that way with your starting QB. You DON'T let them test the market unless you want them gone. That would be NFL GM 101.
The fact is Schoen bought a year option when he declined year 5. NFL cap dynamics drove up the price a bit, as always at QB. Speaking of, this years QB tag price is $38.3MM.
Do you believe Jones would have gotten that amount of money (or more) from another NFL team?
I'd have to do the same exercise as Schoen did for SB in the show about what teams might value him higher; I don't have that in me. No point anyway.
That said, I doubt it. Jones value to the Giants at that point, in that situation, was probably higher than other teams. And probably by a lot - just as SB's value to the Eagles was nearly twice Schoen's.
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post!
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
John Mara doesn't strike me as an owner who doesn't care about winning as long as the team is profitable. For all the shit Mara gets, I don't see how anyone could think he doesn't badly want to win. I just don't think he knows how. He's incredibly invested in how the football team performs.
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I think fans forget John Mara owns less than 5% of the team personally, and that he is in every way the president and CEO of an organization.
His first priority is to create value for his siblings and the Tisches. Winning contributes to that, but that's a minor factor in generating revenue.
Amplifying the game and its stars is more important. That is how the NFL ensures they continue to enjoy massive television and media deals. And that's the biggest revenue stream.
Mara doesn't operate like an activist BOD member. He's the CEO, and Schoen is more like the executive in charge of a major, but not the most important function of the company.
If that were the case, why wouldn’t Mara want Barkely playing in Philadelphia behind a better Oline with a chance to shine brighter than he ever did in NY?
Mara clearly wants Barkely to be a star for the Giants, not the NFL.
A Giants team packed with star power is good for both the NFL and the Giants. The Giants, even as a losing franchise, have a higher profile and generate more value than a winning a Eagles team.
I'm not saying Mara operates solely on behalf of the NFL. He creates value for his family and the Tisches through direct team channels as well.
My point is Schoen is in charge of football operations, and Mara is in charge of overall revenue operations. Schoen is not playing the part of a defacto CEO. He's just a piece of the puzzle.
I say this because
a) We have Daboll specifically saying at the Legends event that he was doing all he could to avoid the release of important conversations.
b) It's clear that HBO wired two or three rooms with the cameras to get the bulk of their information, which are that large meeting room where Bowen was presenting and Schoen's office. I think in a large facility it would be easy to "go through the motions" in those areas and save the important convos for other areas. An example of this is how Schoen's 150 sq foot office had about 10 guys in it at one point crammed in to discuss Barkley. I think it's intentional.
Maybe I'm off but the whole thing seems forced and a little staged to me.
My point is that in reality he personally holds a very small ownership stake in the company, and holds the job as the highest corporate officer. He runs the show on behalf of his family and the Tisches family.
And he has other responsibilities outside of the football operations. He'd be a fool to not consider the revenue implications of losing a star player.
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
some stuff can be clear, if in conjunction to things that happened in real world - i.e. hard knocks aside schoen had a clear unwillingness to change his offers to barkley from one year to the next even as the cap increased more than expected.
various members of his staff articulated alternative viewpoints, which is their job, some which proved correct like rossetti, but in the end schoen stuck with his belief in positional value and made a decision with clear conviction. out of everything we saw in episode 1 that to me is a clear and inarguable takeaway. how it works out is entirely unknown for all involved but we saw exactly how the decision unfolded, and it explains the strained relationship the past 16 months.
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Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
isn't one kind of related to the other? the literal job descriptions of most everyone in any FO below GM is focusing on individual players.
I am talking about what Mara, Schoen and McDonnell are focused on. Are you suggesting they should be more focused on individual player success than team success?
Sure, a RB coach should be concerned about the success of the RBs. Clearly that is not what my post was about. I think you know that.
My point is that in reality he personally holds a very small ownership stake in the company, and holds the job as the highest corporate officer. He runs the show on behalf of his family and the Tisches family.
And he has other responsibilities outside of the football operations. He'd be a fool to not consider the revenue implications of losing a star player.
any owner or ceo would also be a fool if they didnt at least have some working knowledge of how to quantify one of their most productive employees in their primary business. barkley was the giants 4th all time rushing leader, less than 100 yards from 3rd (joe morris), and has the highest career ypg in franchise history.
it is not abnormal for any owner to be less informed than the subject matter expert they employ specifically for particularly difficult decisions like that one. im sure steve cohen or hal steinbrenner prefer to extend pete alonso and juan soto but similarly david stearns and cashman will ultimately need to be the ones to decide where the line is or isnt where the cost is too prohibitive for the team.
I keep going back to why was he franchised after 2022? It's seems clear to me that if it were up to Schoen, the no brainer would have been to franchise Jones and let Barkley test the market. This is where I think Mara did come into play after the success of 2022 including the playoff win.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
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In comment 16547579 GiantsFan84 said:
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“What will our identity be if we lose Barkley”. JFC
Stuck in the 90s. Omg.
People seem very confused about this exchange. Unless you want sycophants nodding along with every one of Schoen's utterances, you need someone in the room willing to stand up and present the opposing argument.
Whether or not the fans find his point compelling couldn't be less relevant.
That assumes all arguments are valid and of equal value.
I say this because
a) We have Daboll specifically saying at the Legends event that he was doing all he could to avoid the release of important conversations.
b) It's clear that HBO wired two or three rooms with the cameras to get the bulk of their information, which are that large meeting room where Bowen was presenting and Schoen's office. I think in a large facility it would be easy to "go through the motions" in those areas and save the important convos for other areas. An example of this is how Schoen's 150 sq foot office had about 10 guys in it at one point crammed in to discuss Barkley. I think it's intentional.
Maybe I'm off but the whole thing seems forced and a little staged to me.
It's not conspiracy theory. Organizations such as the Giants will narrative-engineer. Not only for public consumption (think propaganda) but also to prevent internal problems (think about Jones' ego).
Of course he’s a nepotism hire he’s being groomed to be the next team President.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
I think this might be true of some NFL owners, but not John Mara. Despite my criticisms of him as an owner, the Giants are his family and he is passionate about the success of this team like any rabid fan would be. If you asked Mara behind closed doors if he would accept a 10% decrease in NFL revenue in exchange for a Giants SB win, he would take it in a heartbeat.
I keep going back to why was he franchised after 2022? It's seems clear to me that if it were up to Schoen, the no brainer would have been to franchise Jones and let Barkley test the market. This is where I think Mara did come into play after the success of 2022 including the playoff win.
My guess is John Mara is a good-hearted man, who naively thinks everything can work out nicely.
I think he believes in a world where the nice, well liked players are also the best players and with a team full of those good guys, the Giants can win Super Bowls. And that will in turn make his siblings and the Tisches lot of money.
And when those good players (include the coaches and staff) get a little older, they'll voluntarily retire and ride off happily.
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In comment 16547741 Mike from Ohio said:
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Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
isn't one kind of related to the other? the literal job descriptions of most everyone in any FO below GM is focusing on individual players.
I am talking about what Mara, Schoen and McDonnell are focused on. Are you suggesting they should be more focused on individual player success than team success?
Sure, a RB coach should be concerned about the success of the RBs. Clearly that is not what my post was about. I think you know that.
i am suggesting that individual player successes are entirely linked to team successes and the job of the FO is to find players who will be individually successful because those individual successes = team success. when any player gains yards or scores touchdowns, their team gains yards and gets points. teams arent trying to build rosters of players who are individually unsuccessful.
the show cuts together months worth of things they are "focused on" into a narrative that will be compelling for TV. Barkley is by far the most recognizable player on the team and one of the bigger storylines of the offseason so that's what TV is focusing on.
if you think 40 minutes is an accurate guide to what they were in reality (not tv) more/less focused on does that mean you think the team wasn't focused on OL since it hardly came up beyond a few throwaway lines?
I think this might be true of some NFL owners, but not John Mara. Despite my criticisms of him as an owner, the Giants are his family and he is passionate about the success of this team like any rabid fan would be. If you asked Mara behind closed doors if he would accept a 10% decrease in NFL revenue in exchange for a Giants SB win, he would take it in a heartbeat.
I don't disagree. But this where I think many people forget John Mara personally owns less than 5% of the team.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
THIS.
The one thing that didn't leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling was the lack of a big picture discussion. What are we doing? How are we trying to build this? What is our vision?
Instead, I came away with a totally REACTIVE mindset, rather than PROACTIVE. I've personally seen this before in government organizations.
Now, I'm hoping we simply were not privy to the big picture, strategic discussions. But if those did not occur and everything is done piecemeal, yikes.
My guess is that's where the energy was, and that will become more clear in the episode about Nabers.
What I found interesting was that he referred to the fork when discussing Daniel, he's referring to the out next year. I still think it's a long shot that he does enough to earn a restructure but they're going to give him a shot that's more inline with Schoen/Daboll's identity. I'm a little skeptical about our OL issues being sorted but we'll see.
I won’t continue this discussion with you, other than to say that I think it is fair to suggest what some people said on HM may be a reflection of what they believe. If you want to argue it was a performance and everyone is completely different than they were portrayed and believe very different things than what they were on the show saying, you can argue that all day and make a great case that nobody can ever know anything and discussing anything is pointless.
i get it as fans we want to consume every piece of news/media/content about this team and try to dissect it, but this to me seems contrived.
i will focus on results/actions/actual moves than some soundbites when judging this FO.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
I like your POV on this and agree with you on the separation of power within the team. Never thought of it that way.
i get it as fans we want to consume every piece of news/media/content about this team and try to dissect it, but this to me seems contrived.
i will focus on results/actions/actual moves than some soundbites when judging this FO.
Of course it is staged to an extent. Few people speak their mind freely when they know a camera is recording them and will broadcast all the juiciest parts to the entire world. That will make most people measure what they say and how they say it.
Really seems like Mara pushed the jones contract after rewatching this
you can't be serious! The video clearly shows Mara pushed keeping BARKLEY and wanted to keep him again...
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
any ceo walks and chews gum or they dont succeed.
tim cook's job is bigger than winning market share with iphones, but if any of his top products fails it's not good. it's not his job to personally get the designs/features of those specific products right, it's his job to hire the right people to do that at scale across all the products they sell and be as involved as he needs to be pushing those people to do their best work.
mara's success/failure as lead owner/CEO is almost entirely whether or not he hires the right people. i'm not the biggest joe schoen fan but the thing im most encouraged by is that he has strong convictions in certain things (particularly positional value) and we saw yesterday that even when pressed by a variety of private counter arguments he stuck to his convictions - which also turned out to be different than one of the top GMs in the sport. all any of us can do (mara included) is hope he is right because everyone's interests (fan's, owner's, schoen family's) are aligned in that.
JM then has to deal with a lot of other Mara's. Many of them probably have different ideas of what needs to be done moving forward. Then you add in the Tisch side.
He knows he's the paying the guy a lot of money, and wants to see if he can succeed.
The Giants weren't replacing Jones.
JM then has to deal with a lot of other Mara's. Many of them probably have different ideas of what needs to be done moving forward. Then you add in the Tisch side.
The Tisch side is probably the main reason that Schoen was hired in the first place.
I'm guessing we won't see Tisch in the Giants building having discussions with Schoen. That's rather telling.
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
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I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post!
Plus one on this being an excellent post
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In the discussion around Barkley and McDonnell’s comments around losing their offensive identity. The question in his mind was clearly around replacing a really good player that they could market as opposed to how do we make a terrible offense better.
Some in the front office seem more focused on the individual players than on the overall success/failure of the team.
THIS.
The one thing that didn't leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling was the lack of a big picture discussion. What are we doing? How are we trying to build this? What is our vision?
Instead, I came away with a totally REACTIVE mindset, rather than PROACTIVE. I've personally seen this before in government organizations.
Now, I'm hoping we simply were not privy to the big picture, strategic discussions. But if those did not occur and everything is done piecemeal, yikes.
I didn't sense that Schoen or Brown was being reactive. He identified their needs and met those needs through draft (get #1 receiver), trades (Burns), and free agency (OL). He was not going to overpay for a RB, unlike the previous GM he understands the value of the position. And we aren't seeing all of their discussions, not by a long shot.
The lack of an ability of Mara/McDonnell to think creatively or with any strategic vision is obvious.
The biggest takeaway for me from this episode was how utterly useless and unqualified McDonnell is. I doubt he says anything insightful or clever in any episode of HK.
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cares about winning. The franchise has established high standards to meet in its history. Taking heat with the media and fans is just one component when things are not going well.
JM then has to deal with a lot of other Mara's. Many of them probably have different ideas of what needs to be done moving forward. Then you add in the Tisch side.
The Tisch side is probably the main reason that Schoen was hired in the first place.
I'm guessing we won't see Tisch in the Giants building having discussions with Schoen. That's rather telling.
Agreed. I wish the Tisch family owned the team outright instead of the Maras.
I won’t continue this discussion with you, other than to say that I think it is fair to suggest what some people said on HM may be a reflection of what they believe. If you want to argue it was a performance and everyone is completely different than they were portrayed and believe very different things than what they were on the show saying, you can argue that all day and make a great case that nobody can ever know anything and discussing anything is pointless.
we can move on but to be clear i never said the way people were acting was performative. just that we are only seeing a very small amount of the 40 minutes chosen to be shown by producers focused on creating compelling TV people watch, which is not necessarily an accurate representation of how they spent the 40,000+ minutes of real time spanned in the episode.
you are extrapolating from a few conversations that some are "more focused on individual players than the overall success of the team" as if the former has nothing to do with the latter. i think that is the strange argument, especially if understood that what is shown is only a fragment of what was discussed (and the most intentionally controversial fragments at that).
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In comment 16547820 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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cares about winning. The franchise has established high standards to meet in its history. Taking heat with the media and fans is just one component when things are not going well.
JM then has to deal with a lot of other Mara's. Many of them probably have different ideas of what needs to be done moving forward. Then you add in the Tisch side.
The Tisch side is probably the main reason that Schoen was hired in the first place.
I'm guessing we won't see Tisch in the Giants building having discussions with Schoen. That's rather telling.
Agreed. I wish the Tisch family owned the team outright instead of the Maras.
No argument here. Tisch knows what he doesn't know. And Mara doesn't.
The one thing that didn't leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling was the lack of a big picture discussion. What are we doing? How are we trying to build this? What is our vision?
Instead, I came away with a totally REACTIVE mindset, rather than PROACTIVE. I've personally seen this before in government organizations.
Now, I'm hoping we simply were not privy to the big picture, strategic discussions. But if those did not occur and everything is done piecemeal, yikes.
from Brandon Brown's outback analogy, to the Barkley discussions, to the Bowen question about edge guys vs interior penetrators, what i saw in the show aligns with the decisions they made (burns, barkley, etc) - emphasis on premium positional value is their proactive vision for how they are trying to build this org.
i suspect this will continue as the episodes move forward and the draft focuses in on QBs/WRs, which are now basically tied with EDGE as the most expensive positions other than QB.
Wilkins is lower ceiling/higher floor than Burns, but a very very good player.
at #39 the Giants would have been able to take the trade Carolina took from LAR which was an outright steal picking up a 2025 2nd and moving down to #52. Or they could have taken Max Melton, Kool-aid, Fiske, Dejean at #39.
signing him instead of the burns trade would have canceled out the McKinney comp pick for sure, but the value of pick #39 is a significant difference.
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footage, and if there was genuine interest in Maye, but this first episode re-confirms my belief all along that Schoen has always been very comfortable with Jones as his QB. And did I hear Schoen say they had a three-year plan with Jones...?
When he said that Mahomes couldn't win behind the Giants OL - I believe he may have been referencing the Miami game as an example - that probably made quite a number of posters feel good around here...
If Schoen actually considered the notion of signing and trading Barkley with the FT #2, I find it even more befuddling they didn't trade him at the deadline in 2023.
I see it completely different. He's pissed off he's paying him $40M and he better deliver this year through airing it out. He referenced $40M multiple times almost in a tone that he was annoyed.
There was the exchange with Brown and McDonnell where Schoen talks about needing to address QB mainly given Jones' injuries. I'm sure Maye was the guy they targeted, but they'll edit that out I imagine. Next week focuses on QB.
The sense I got it Schoen is pissed off he's paying him $40M.
We definitely see this differently. I concluded Schoen is pissed off because Jones is always injured, not because he can't be the answer. And he feels they need a better solution at back-up QB in case Jones gets injured again.
To me, the $40M refrain is Schoen saying they have their QB, he just needs a better supporting cast. Which is underscored by the Pat Mahomes remark; and how even a magician like Mahomes could not win with the Giants supporting cast (I don't believe that, btw).
I came away from the episode pretty underwhelmed with the entire group of decision makers - Schoen, Brown, Rossetti, Hickey, etc. Seeing Abrams made me want to throw up in my mouth.
Daboll is the only guy who impresses me out of all this current regime...
Wilkins is lower ceiling/higher floor than Burns, but a very very good player.
at #39 the Giants would have been able to take the trade Carolina took from LAR which was an outright steal picking up a 2025 2nd and moving down to #52. Or they could have taken Max Melton, Kool-aid, Fiske, Dejean at #39.
signing him instead of the burns trade would have canceled out the McKinney comp pick for sure, but the value of pick #39 is a significant difference.
I’d rather have Burns than Wilkins & the pick. Burns is much more of an impact player.
Because he’s the main character and they’re trying to give viewers background on who he is and where he’s come from. That he’s a blue collar guy who rose through the ranks on the road is important, highlighting that he still eats PBJs is a nice visualization of the point.
It was mixed messaging. There seemed genuine lines from Schoen about the reality of Jones not only being hurt, but being injury prone (history is the best way to predict the future).
But then there was the strong impression that they want him to have one more year because of the contract.
HOWEVER... we don't know what was edited out. Since they are "stuck" with Jones, they may not want to have released footage that said otherwise. And even if Jones was on the way out, they certainly wouldn't want to look low class (same with Wink, Saquon, Xavier, etc.).
The draft episode is going to be fascinating with how much they reveal about the trade-up opportunity and how they stitch together the narrative on why they drafted Nabers.
He hasnt learned anything over the past 4-5 years.
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anyone else casually wondering if they weren't better off signing him and keeping the 2nd round pick instead of the Burns trade?
Wilkins is lower ceiling/higher floor than Burns, but a very very good player.
at #39 the Giants would have been able to take the trade Carolina took from LAR which was an outright steal picking up a 2025 2nd and moving down to #52. Or they could have taken Max Melton, Kool-aid, Fiske, Dejean at #39.
signing him instead of the burns trade would have canceled out the McKinney comp pick for sure, but the value of pick #39 is a significant difference.
I’d rather have Burns than Wilkins & the pick. Burns is much more of an impact player.
not sure i agree with the "much more". wilkins has been a good player and a top 10 DL each of the past few years. he was picked 13th a few picks ahead of burns/dex for a reason. he is a really good player. he'd also probably add more than burns against the run, and while he's not an explosive pass rusher like a top edge, last year he had 10 sacks and 58 pressures. burns had 9 sacks, 40 pressures and in his best year was 13 sacks 68 pressures.
so again there's obvious pass rush upside with an edge > idl that's probably worth the added run defense from wilkins, but is it enough that it was worth the 39th pick? ive been a fan of both burns/wilkins since their draft years, i think it's a close call either way and id have been happy with either outcome.
He has a job to do, which is generate value for the other owners. And that is as CEO and President of the company. Schoen isn't a CEO figure.
The Giants are the second most valuable franchise in the league, and have won the third fewest games in league over the last 10 years. Clearly winning isn't the lynchpin in creating value.
The Giants aren't John Mara's pet project. It's a job. And yes winning is an important outcome, but creating value for the dozen plus other owners who have entrusted him with authority is also important to him.
any ceo walks and chews gum or they dont succeed.
tim cook's job is bigger than winning market share with iphones, but if any of his top products fails it's not good. it's not his job to personally get the designs/features of those specific products right, it's his job to hire the right people to do that at scale across all the products they sell and be as involved as he needs to be pushing those people to do their best work.
mara's success/failure as lead owner/CEO is almost entirely whether or not he hires the right people. i'm not the biggest joe schoen fan but the thing im most encouraged by is that he has strong convictions in certain things (particularly positional value) and we saw yesterday that even when pressed by a variety of private counter arguments he stuck to his convictions - which also turned out to be different than one of the top GMs in the sport. all any of us can do (mara included) is hope he is right because everyone's interests (fan's, owner's, schoen family's) are aligned in that.
I'm not entirely sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. But my train of thought is directed at Hbart's description of Schoen as the CEO figure and Mara as the BOD. That's the contention I am disagreeing with and the point I'm illustrating.
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In comment 16547841 Eric on Li said:
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anyone else casually wondering if they weren't better off signing him and keeping the 2nd round pick instead of the Burns trade?
Wilkins is lower ceiling/higher floor than Burns, but a very very good player.
at #39 the Giants would have been able to take the trade Carolina took from LAR which was an outright steal picking up a 2025 2nd and moving down to #52. Or they could have taken Max Melton, Kool-aid, Fiske, Dejean at #39.
signing him instead of the burns trade would have canceled out the McKinney comp pick for sure, but the value of pick #39 is a significant difference.
I’d rather have Burns than Wilkins & the pick. Burns is much more of an impact player.
not sure i agree with the "much more". wilkins has been a good player and a top 10 DL each of the past few years. he was picked 13th a few picks ahead of burns/dex for a reason. he is a really good player. he'd also probably add more than burns against the run, and while he's not an explosive pass rusher like a top edge, last year he had 10 sacks and 58 pressures. burns had 9 sacks, 40 pressures and in his best year was 13 sacks 68 pressures.
so again there's obvious pass rush upside with an edge > idl that's probably worth the added run defense from wilkins, but is it enough that it was worth the 39th pick? ive been a fan of both burns/wilkins since their draft years, i think it's a close call either way and id have been happy with either outcome.
That’s fair - but Wilkins was on a much, much better team. I’m excited to see what Burns can do.
He hasnt learned anything over the past 4-5 years.
He did make that comment about drafting a RB high again, and it was pretty cringeworthy. As if to imply that A, they ‘had’ to draft a RB at #2 overall, and B, that it would be necessary to use a Day 1-2 pick on a RB again
McDonnell’s question about “what’s our identity on offense” if they lose Saquon is symptomatic too.
The identity for the last few years has been more often than not it’s hard for the offense to even cross the 50. How about moving fhe football and scoring more points as an identity?
as hopeful as we want to be re tyrone tracy the odds say most day 3 picks end up like eric gray and arent ready to contribute in year 1 if ever. before barkley there was a decade of proof in the form of paul perkins, wayne gallman, andre brown, andre williams, michael cox, darel scott, that finding ahmad bradshaw's isnt so simple.
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JS “Daniel is making a lot of money and we need to figure out if he’s the guy”. How the fuck do you give him that contract if you don’t believe he is the guy?
Really seems like Mara pushed the jones contract after rewatching this
you can't be serious! The video clearly shows Mara pushed keeping BARKLEY and wanted to keep him again...
Unrelated. If you aren’t sure if jones is the guy you don’t sign him long-term to a massive contract
The mouth guard is one of the few adult gestures that is as obvious as a child's. The hand covers the mouth and the thumb is pressed against the cheek as the brain sub-consciously instructs it to try and suppress the deceitful words that are being said. Sometimes this gesture may only be several fingers over the mouth or even a closed fist, but its meaning remains the same.
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It was mixed messaging. There seemed genuine lines from Schoen about the reality of Jones not only being hurt, but being injury prone (history is the best way to predict the future).
But then there was the strong impression that they want him to have one more year because of the contract.
HOWEVER... we don't know what was edited out. Since they are "stuck" with Jones, they may not want to have released footage that said otherwise. And even if Jones was on the way out, they certainly wouldn't want to look low class (same with Wink, Saquon, Xavier, etc.).
The draft episode is going to be fascinating with how much they reveal about the trade-up opportunity and how they stitch together the narrative on why they drafted Nabers.
We are going to hear largely what they want us to hear.
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I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
@art_stapleton
I was fortunate enough to be able to screen next week's Hard Knocks episode, and while not providing any spoilers is part of the deal, I think overall Episode 2 is better than Episode 1 because of the content at the Combine. #Giants100
@DDuggan21
This is the one scene that seemed like it was done for the cameras. Schoen really needed to lay these points out to his top lieutenants in an offseason meeting?
https://x.com/DDuggan21/status/1808461348600201445 - ( New Window )
@rydunleavy
Tim McDonnell asked the best question of this episode.
Whats our offensive identity going to be without Saquon?
NFL front office isnt the place for yes men. Everyone knew what Joe Schoen wanted to do.
One of #Giants lieutenants HAD TO raise the counterpoint
Micromanaging ?
Still going with this narrative ?
@rydunleavy
Tim McDonnell asked the best question of this episode.
Whats our offensive identity going to be without Saquon?
NFL front office isnt the place for yes men. Everyone knew what Joe Schoen wanted to do.
One of #Giants lieutenants HAD TO raise the counterpoint
The best question?????? OMFG
The worst scenario is Mara expressing these feelings to the press, and whether he means to or not, putting indirect pressure on Schoen.
If he's putting direct pressure on Schoen, and he then allows him to make an autonomous decision, that is good.
And can someone please notify the Giants brass that the word "TRAIL", which is the acronym above the team's training facility, has precisely the wrong meaning for a team with championship aspirations. A better word would its antithesis, "LEAD".
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Don't tell me Mara didn't play a big role in resigning Jones. As I've said in multiple threads, there is no way that after reviewing the first 4 years of Jones' career, Schoen and Daboll decided that "he's our guy".
as hopeful as we want to be re tyrone tracy the odds say most day 3 picks end up like eric gray and arent ready to contribute in year 1 if ever. before barkley there was a decade of proof in the form of paul perkins, wayne gallman, andre brown, andre williams, michael cox, darel scott, that finding ahmad bradshaw's isnt so simple.
I somewhat agree. I have no problem going RB in the second at any time.
But also bad scouting and bad OL was a significant part of that era of bad RB picks. Some of those guys had NFL ability and were thrown into bad situations.
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Mike I agree. 82M isn't a test drive. At the risk of opening this can for the millionth time, guys like Smith and Mayfield are test drives. They got 27M and 40M respectively.
He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
The way he said so matter of factly "we need to find out if he's our guy for the next ten years" speaks to me that he *wasnt* convinced and he sees that contract as not a firm commitment.
And can someone please notify the Giants brass that the word "TRAIL", which is the acronym above the team's training facility, has precisely the wrong meaning for a team with championship aspirations. A better word would its antithesis, "LEAD".
Agreed on TRAIL... terrible messaging.
And as you said, at some point, you OWN the situation.
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
Exactly. PIA for teams. "fun?" for some fans.
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or the reality that most good rbs are high (day 2) picks. the guy they signed to replace him had been a day 2 pick.
as hopeful as we want to be re tyrone tracy the odds say most day 3 picks end up like eric gray and arent ready to contribute in year 1 if ever. before barkley there was a decade of proof in the form of paul perkins, wayne gallman, andre brown, andre williams, michael cox, darel scott, that finding ahmad bradshaw's isnt so simple.
I somewhat agree. I have no problem going RB in the second at any time.
But also bad scouting and bad OL was a significant part of that era of bad RB picks. Some of those guys had NFL ability and were thrown into bad situations.
i dont recall any of them finding their way to other better situations and thriving.
and the bar for thriving isn't that high, when the nyg went out and signed rashad jennings that was a pretty big upgrade at the time and he was an entirely mediocre player.
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
another W for Daboll - smart enough to avoid as much as he can.
@rydunleavy
Tim McDonnell asked the best question of this episode.
Whats our offensive identity going to be without Saquon?
NFL front office isnt the place for yes men. Everyone knew what Joe Schoen wanted to do.
One of #Giants lieutenants HAD TO raise the counterpoint
This team's offensive identity during Barkley's tenure was "can't score at NFL average rate." Someone needs to ask him if that was the identity he was suggesting that needed to be recast.
"Great point, Tim. We are going to move from an inefficient offense that centers around Barkley, to an inefficient offense that centers around Jones. Who's printing the t-shirts?"
But, Schoen shot that down. To me it just confirmed that he wanted Barkley in 2023 off season so badly that Giants gave MORE to Jones to mnake sure they could franchise Barkley. Schoen was not paying huge dollars to a RB (which would actually blow up the RB market) with decent to above average wear and tear and a history of being injured.
And as you said, at some point, you OWN the situation.
When you've scored the third fewest points over a decade, this is a pretty appropriate slogan.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
My interpretation of that exchange was this:
Mara is still very old school and thinks RB is a premium position. So, Schoen, trying to be respectful, let Mara have his say, and then remind him there was other solutions in free agency that could help the team.
To me, that was one of the main reveals in Episode 1. This organization still has an inordinate number of old school thinking when it comes to building a team...
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He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
I don't think the Giants will have better QB options in the 2025 draft than they did in the 2024 draft - they likely won't be picking higher and there likely won't be several more top prospects - so if they do draft one it may be due in part to a greater sense of urgency. Who knows, maybe there will be 8 top-10 prospects and we they can just wait for any of them to fall?
I think there is just as much possibility that Daniel Jones plays out the full 4 year contract he signed as the Giants strater. All of these short term band-aid solutions may end up with Jones becoming a 10 year starter for this team while the Giants wait for the stars to align to deliver them there next Chosen One.
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In comment 16547948 Sean said:
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He bought Jones. He had a chance for a graceful and/or accelerated exit this year and he passed.
He's now on record among the recent principals who have advocated for getting more weapons and better pass protection.
I think you're right. 3/$112.5M are the terms we should focus on. I'd say there is a good chance QB is drafted next April, but Jones is the placeholder for another year.
Yup. Jones coming back in 2025 is an easy call. Hopefully he gets his Mahomes, or at least his Kaepernick in the draft.
I don't think the Giants will have better QB options in the 2025 draft than they did in the 2024 draft - they likely won't be picking higher and there likely won't be several more top prospects - so if they do draft one it may be due in part to a greater sense of urgency. Who knows, maybe there will be 8 top-10 prospects and we they can just wait for any of them to fall?
I think there is just as much possibility that Daniel Jones plays out the full 4 year contract he signed as the Giants strater. All of these short term band-aid solutions may end up with Jones becoming a 10 year starter for this team while the Giants wait for the stars to align to deliver them there next Chosen One.
The thought of ten years of Jones is a better vomit inducer than ipokak
Did you see anything last night that would even give you a hint that this John Mara quote was true?
"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
If he doesn't have any authority than why would Dan Duggan write this in The Athletic?
Tim Donnell influential skeptic with no authority, who by coincidence is next in line to succeed John Mara as President and Chief Executive Officer/Board Director of the New York Football Giants.
No micromanaging here.
Did you see anything last night that would even give you a hint that this John Mara quote was true?
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"Tim is probably the most respected guy we have in this building. Coaches, front office staff and the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he is a good evaluator.
"He's worked his way up from the bottom and he's earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
If he doesn't have any authority than why would Dan Duggan write this in The Athletic?
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The comments from Mara and McDonnell show that there were influential skeptics of letting Barkley walk. The fact that the Giants ultimately did so supports Mara’s claim that he doesn’t strong-arm personnel decisions.
Tim Donnell influential skeptic with no authority, who by coincidence is next in line to succeed John Mara as President and Chief Executive Officer/Board Director of the New York Football Giants.
No micromanaging here.
And yet has no decision making power as Barkley is not on the roster
And exactly how do you know he is being groomed to take over?
Seems like no matter the sport…you take issue with ownership no matter what the particular sport is
100%.
As long as the Maras own this team, we will get what we get.
Some good. Mostly bad.
@art_stapleton
The reaction to Hard Knocks and the parsing of everything said that has gone on today on here is the exact reason why most teams don’t want to go on Hard Knocks.
Art knows where is bread is buttered.
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In comment 16547752 GP said:
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I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
What is Mara supposed to do? Stand in the corner and say “yes boss”? He’s the president. He offers his opinion on big items. Just like the head of every other team or company in the world.
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Except for my confirmation bias about John Mara. You really do get the sense that he’s trying to put his thumb on the scale and influence. His comment about having to draft a running back high if we get rid of Barkley confirmed to me that he really does not understand how to acquire players in this league
My interpretation of that exchange was this:
Mara is still very old school and thinks RB is a premium position. So, Schoen, trying to be respectful, let Mara have his say, and then remind him there was other solutions in free agency that could help the team.
To me, that was one of the main reveals in Episode 1. This organization still has an inordinate number of old school thinking when it comes to building a team...
I interpreted the same thing. For all that most of the NFL already understands, Schoen has work to do in educating his management. They still view RB as a premium position.
I'm finding I agree with Schoen more and more. DJ has a chance to prove himself. Our OL was historically bad 0 the data was unrefutable. for our run gamne, for all 3 or our QBs, etc. . . . I'm hopeful that we see some improvement this year just due to our OL.
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In comment 16547824 Chris in Philly said:
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In comment 16547752 GP said:
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I propose all Hard Knocks threads moving forward include the following disclaimer:
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
Months of work and hours of conversation boiled down to a few clips simply cannot yield certainty in any one area, so take the edits with a grain of salt. There's good info there, but I don't think anything can be viewed with end-all certainty.
Excellent post. We see what we want to see.
Yes, but we also saw what we saw.
Right or wrong (different subject), Mara was arguing a certain position. We saw it. It happened.
What is Mara supposed to do? Stand in the corner and say “yes boss”? He’s the president. He offers his opinion on big items. Just like the head of every other team or company in the world.
The head of a company with this as it's 10 year performance portfolio.
He is *supposed* do what's best for the company. His calls are what led to this.
Potty mouth joe
And this is a football team. You expect guys to metaphorically kill the other team, but not curse?
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
I’m not crazy about excessive swearing in the workplace but it has been part of the NFL culture for a long, long time. What surprised me is it wasn’t bleeped out - if memory serves that wasn’t the case on previous iterations of HK.
I doubt a single person on BBI expects McDonnell to say something intelligent or strategic on any episode of HK.
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
Ha. Guess none of you were sailors....
I agree that out in public using the F word is not a good look. Internally, among friends, who really gives a crap?
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Hopefully his wife or kids let’s him know.
As for Barkley/RB scene, the fact that he wasn’t traded for a pick last season and now this short video skeptics-conversation are perfect examples of why you don’t want this ownership seriously involved in football decisions. They suck at them.
If the sentiment is ownership will have a say in big football decisions then we need to just hope that they are predominately aligned to what Schoen is already thinking. Otherwise we as fans have to pray for luck.
I will also convey that the Barkley decision isn’t really a big football decision. It was an easy one. Unless of course you can’t adapt to what has been going on in the NFL very well.
Ha. Guess none of you were sailors....
I agree that out in public using the F word is not a good look. Internally, among friends, who really gives a crap?
Depends on the company you keep. Or the company others choose to keep.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
How they talk on Wall Street
And in Hollywood
@rydunleavy
Tim McDonnell asked the best question of this episode.
Whats our offensive identity going to be without Saquon?
NFL front office isnt the place for yes men. Everyone knew what Joe Schoen wanted to do.
One of #Giants lieutenants HAD TO raise the counterpoint
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
I remember watching the Cowboys several years ago on the Prime series "All or Nothing" and hearing Jason Garrett drop f-bombs left and right and couldn't help but feel like it was his way of trying to be a tough guy. It felt completely inauthentic and I can't imagine anyone would ever be "intimidated" by such obvious theatrics. In contrast, when the Colts were on Hard Knocks, Frank Reich, who is devoutly religious, never once used profanity. And he had complete control over that locker room.
In watching Joe Schoen use profanity, it felt to me out of place. Schoen is a cerebral buttoned up man of high character. Yes, using profanity prudently as required to make critical points on momentous occasions would be impactful. But him overusing f-bombs in every sentence just makes him look inauthentic and foolish.
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Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
And yet this site is full of folks who likely never played a down of football feel themselves to be fully qualified to sound off on what the team does and does not do!
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In comment 16548238 Mike from Ohio said:
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Generally express their views on key decisions, even ones they have delegated. But where the NYG diverge from most organizations is the person at the top of the Giants organization didn’t grow up in the industry he works and has no talent for the work being done by the people he employs.
The Giants situation is more akin to a hospital than a bank. In a bank, you probably have a CEO who has worked in banking his entire life and has excelled at it. He may designate decisions to those below him, but his views are very pertinent and should be considered based on his experience.
In a hospital, your CEO probably has vast experience in hospital operations and finance. But they have heads of medical practices who report to them administratively, but would never consult with him on medical questions because that is not his training and background.
I don’t think Mara understands his value to the franchise is in the administration of the organization and the league, but he football decisions - outside of “we don’t want that individual in our building” - are best left to the people he hired who are trained in this profession. John Mara has been around football his whole life, but he has never had to make a scouting or coaching decision of consequence in his life. He understands the business of football, not the game of football.
Great analogy!
And yet this site is full of folks who likely never played a down of football feel themselves to be fully qualified to sound off on what the team does and does not do!
I'm not sure you understand the purpose of a fan forum.
That's awesome ... in the fact that I've paid this team "little to no mind" since the 40-0 game, that's how very little I keep up with them anymore.
I've been busy living my own live and fighting off the ladies. No, seriously. Anyway. Just tap the skies when the Giants become worth anything and Daddy 9 will speak some more golden knowledge.
I am impressed with myself that I'm finding out about the Hard Knocks thing just now, lol.
Second - Schoen said - let's give Jones a competent OL and give him a fair chance to prove it - or Pivot. Pivot is clearly not saying he's the future of the franchise.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
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and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
this is correct. here was his player usage in TEN on the defense that stayed the healthiest and had the most success (2021). i think this is what would be considered close to his "ideal" personnel based on everything we've heard.
s kevin byard 1050 snaps (96%)
de harold landry 981 snaps (89%)
dl jeffrey simmons 932 (85%)
cb jackrabbit jenkins 861 (78%)
cb kristian fulton 737 (67%)
dl denico autry 709 (64%)
s amani hooker 704 (64%)
lb david long 634 (57%)
cb elijah molden 632 (57%)
note that this is:
3 pass rushers (likely to be burns, thibs, lawrence)
5 defensive backs (competition tbd)
1 linebacker (this will be okereke, not sure who wore green dot for him in 2021 but in 2023 it was shaair)
the other 10th/11th/12th most used players were an assortment rotating run defenders/2nd linebackers/pass rushers. rashaad evans, jayon brown, bud dupree, and a 6th db. these are likely to be mcfadden, simmons, jordan phillips, ojulari, nacho, etc.
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and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
He said the inside backers.
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In comment 16548614 bc4life said:
Quote:
and not sure if it's been mentioned before but Bowen mentioned the importance of the 2 ILBs in his scheme.
I'll have to go back and watch, but I thought he said the inside linebacker and safety have to be the brains of the defense (nothing unusual there, usually why the ILB or S wears the green dot).
What we don't know is how much the second ILB will be on the field. From what I can tell, Vrabel/Bowen used a TON of nickel and dime, which suggests the second ILB comes off (or we may see more of the hybrid "money" backer such as Isaiah Simmons.
My gut still says the nickel corner (probably our 3rd rounder) will be playing more than the second ILB.
He said the inside backers.
remember the context - he was talking about what he looks in for his defense so the personnel dept could go find more players for him. he wasn't going to say "i only need 1 smart inside linebacker so we are set because we have okereke". i think he was describing generally the traits most important for any inside linebacker on the roster, not necessarily the importance of deploying 2 of them on the field at the same as a specifically key element of his defense. as eric pointed out his history does not suggest that he's done that.
That might be the dumbest thing I've seen in a while as a motivation tool/phrase.
It was embarrassing...
<snip>
He said the inside backers.
remember the context - he was talking about what he looks in for his defense so the personnel dept could go find more players for him. he wasn't going to say "i only need 1 smart inside linebacker so we are set because we have okereke". i think he was describing generally the traits most important for any inside linebacker on the roster, not necessarily the importance of deploying 2 of them on the field at the same as a specifically key element of his defense. as eric pointed out his history does not suggest that he's done that.
Yes - thanks for posting the percentages. Super curious to see the packages we open camp with now that Bowen's seen everypne in OTAs.
(+) "He didn't have much of a chance this year... You could have Pat Mahomes and he can't f-ing win behind that (O-line)"
(+) "I'm not giving up on him. He's under contract for 3 more years."
vs.
(-) "3 Serious Injuries in 2 years. We need to protect ourselves because best predictor of the future is the past"
(-) "Is he our guy for the next 10 years? Or do we need to pivot and find somebody else?"
IMO the waffling back and forth on Jones has been the biggest weakness of the Schoen era. The quotes from the show match up to the actions taken from this front office. Here's a quick recap since Schoen took over as GM:
2022 - Decline the 5th year option, we're moving on at QB.
2023 - Actually, we were wrong. Here's $160MM over the next 4 years.
2024 - Oh no, we were wrong again. Neck and ACL injuries are very concerning. He's gotta prove that he's worth the contract we gave him.
2025+ - Pray he's the Franchise QB, else we pivot.
Declining Jones' 5th year option was one of the 1st major decisions by Schoen. Here were the different options at the time:
(A) Decline option -> QB proves it in 2022 -> New contract
(B) Decline option -> QB doesn't prove it in 2022 -> Pivot to someone else
(C) Pick up the 2023 option (for ~$27M) to play out the 2022 & 2023 seasons -> Decide to cut bait or give out new contract
In hindsight (C) would have been the best choice, as he would have played 2023 on a 'prove-it' year rather than 2022. That would have given the front office more valuable information, such as the three serious injuries in two years. It would have allowed us to move on from Jones in 2024 with a clean financial slate. But instead he went with option (A) as Jones showed enough in 2022 to merit the $160MM 4 year contract. Schoen can't be blamed for drafting Jones, but he should take the blame for giving him the 2nd contract.
By his 2nd year as Buffalo's Assistant GM Schoen had already drafted Allen to be the Franchise QB. But now in year #3 of the NYG Schoen era we've given Top 10 money to a QB who probably isn't a franchise QB. We cannot realistically get out of his contract until 2025 at the earliest (and that will involve lots of dead cap), so this upcoming season is essentially 2022 all over again: a make or break 'prove-it' year for Jones.
in such a year to year league i dont think reactive is the worst "negative" though.
Reactive isn’t helpful either as it keeps you with just enough wins to not control your own destiny in the draft.
Declining Jones' 5th year option was one of the 1st major decisions by Schoen. Here were the different options at the time:
(A) Decline option -> QB proves it in 2022 -> New contract
(B) Decline option -> QB doesn't prove it in 2022 -> Pivot to someone else
(C) Pick up the 2023 option (for ~$27M) to play out the 2022 & 2023 seasons -> Decide to cut bait or give out new contract
In hindsight (C) would have been the best choice, as he would have played 2023 on a 'prove-it' year rather than 2022. That would have given the front office more valuable information, such as the three serious injuries in two years. It would have allowed us to move on from Jones in 2024 with a clean financial slate. But instead he went with option (A) as Jones showed enough in 2022 to merit the $160MM 4 year contract. Schoen can't be blamed for drafting Jones, but he should take the blame for giving him the 2nd contract.
Schoen owns that contract for sure. If you add in your view on how Schoen handled the 5th year option, Schoen has mismanaged the QB issue three straight years.
I tend to give Schoen a pass on not picking up the 5th year option - a reasonable case can be made to decline it - but the new contract and making the decision to roll with Jones into 2024 were bad conclusions, IMV. And it makes me question Schoen remaining as GM.
Brandon Beane always struck me as a GM who practices the philosophy "fortune favors the brave". He goes for it. I was hoping much of that rubbed off on Schoen.
Brandon Beane always struck me as a GM who practices the philosophy "fortune favors the brave". He goes for it. I was hoping much of that rubbed off on Schoen.
But that's false. Because Jones wasn't Schoen's pick, and it was weeks after Schoen's hiring, declining the option was the default decision for any new GM.
It seems clear to me that Schoen really wanted to move on from Saquon.
I believe he thought it was the best football decision but he really didnt want to go another offseason having to discuss it with Saquon again. Barkley was making it about “respect” and Schoen was making a business decision. He knew the money he would offer would just piss Saquon off.
It’s another reason why being a GM is a very difficult job, especially if you are not an asshole.
It seems clear to me that Schoen really wanted to move on from Saquon.
I believe he thought it was the best football decision but he really didnt want to go another offseason having to discuss it with Saquon again. Barkley was making it about “respect” and Schoen was making a business decision. He knew the money he would offer would just piss Saquon off.
It’s another reason why being a GM is a very difficult job, especially if you are not an asshole.
Totally agree. It wasn't just the money either. I think Schoen's like BBI -- ready to move on from all the crap that comes with "face of the franchise" and uninterested in rerunning the same offensive script. And some scarring from being worn out a year ago trying to make it work.
Hard Knocks - ( New Window )
Yet another rocket scientist playing the race card
SMH
It seems clear to me that Schoen really wanted to move on from Saquon.
I believe he thought it was the best football decision but he really didnt want to go another offseason having to discuss it with Saquon again. Barkley was making it about “respect” and Schoen was making a business decision. He knew the money he would offer would just piss Saquon off.
It’s another reason why being a GM is a very difficult job, especially if you are not an asshole.
Even more difficult when your boss can't see things the way they should.