Lombardi commented on the first episode of Hard Knocks talking about how he believes the Giants are just now picking players without any team philosophy. Credit to Go Terps who I've seen make this point here. Lombardi credits NYG for being one of the greatest sport franchises of all time, but they've gotten away from what George Young built. Young built a system and everyone followed the system already in place including Parcells and Belichick running the defense. Now, the Giants sit and listen to what Shane Bowen has to say, but his point is the system should already be established.
All of the coaches who have come through (McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge & Daboll) have further moved the Giants away from the success established with what George Young believed.
Interesting discussion linked below. Starts at the 3:15 minute mark.
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His is a fool....
They want to be able to throw the football and they want to play good defense. That's their "philosophy."
???
This is what the Giants have done for years, under different regimes. The coaches explain to the personnel guys what they need to make their systems work.
It would have been "weird" if they didn't do this.
Sometimes a new approach is needed, and I don't think anyone would disagree that this organization is in many ways lacking an identity. With that said, it's one of those things... you don't have an identity until you have one.
It's valid, but facile criticism. Par for the course with Lombardi. There is rarely anything particularly insightful about what he has to say regarding this team, mostly dunking on the obvious missteps.
The Giants tried to add a few shiny, strong, expensive new links, like a Barkley, to fill seats and sell merchandise. But, that doesn't make the entire chain any stronger.
They need to concentrate on the weak links, better. Will 2024 show such improvement, and identify those weak links? Are some of the weak links not the ones who suit up on Sundays?
Exactly
His criticism that the Giants don't have a philosophy showed Lombardi is out of date, in my opinion. You need to fit the system to the strengths of your players. I think Daboll and Schoen understand this. Also, having meetings to draft players that are the best potential fit for the what the coaches want seems like an excellent idea. Further, why bring in a new defensive coordinator to just tell him how he should run his defense? Makes no sense.
I think Daboll wants to get vertical and push the ball down the field through the air, but he hasn't had the personnel to do it. We need Shane Bowen to hit as a defensive coordinator. It is clear Schoen wants to build through the trenches with the trade for Brian Burns and drafting Thibs and Neal.
In short, I find Lombardi most on point when discussing QB play, the rest he seems out of date.
Stupid.
Agree... The scene seemed highly edited. I couldn't follow the back and forth. At one point Bowen asks a question to the group about a penetrating DT vs pass rusher and then they cut to Schoen saying something like "Pass rush... music to my ears" or something like that. It seemed like there was some discussion that most have been cut out.
you build an identity from having success by drafting or adding players who can do things you want them to do (pass, catch, run, block, etc.) and then as coaches you find ways to get the most out of them working together as cohesive units.
it's only once your identity is established that you add those missing pieces from your philosophy (we need a blocking TE or a possession receiver or a stretch the field speed weapon or a run stopper, pass rusher, etc.).
Nick Saban describes winning as requiring three things. Sure there is some level of platitude here, but it's also actionable IMO.
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While I don’t think that Bowen scene was staged it was certainly edited down. There did seem to be some staged conversations or forced exposition scenes to help the production.
Agree... The scene seemed highly edited. I couldn't follow the back and forth. At one point Bowen asks a question to the group about a penetrating DT vs pass rusher and then they cut to Schoen saying something like "Pass rush... music to my ears" or something like that. It seemed like there was some discussion that most have been cut out.
My guess is there was a Christian Wilkins vs. Brian Burns discussion and they did not want it aired due to revealing too much about the types of players Bowen wants. If you know, for example, that Bowen wants a particular type of CB, DT, etc. you can pigeonhole whom the Giants are likely to have on their short list come draft/FA.
If he doesn't see what they want to do on offense, then he is obtuse. Clearly Schoen is moving away from run oriented to passing.
With Bowen now at DC, they are changing from Winks single high to possibly 2 high or 4 high with an emphasis on stopping the run...
I could be wrong, but that is what I see. They aren't drafting fast WRs for the hell of it.
Seriously, this is media manipulation 101, so transparent here…
Offensively Daboll was pass first his last couple seasons in Buffalo. But not always. He didn't force it here. This year he'll likely start thinking that way. But even if our offense rocks, identity-wise, it's (supposed to be) subordinate to defense. Like HK pointed out, "dee-fence" started with the NYFG.
Breaking news. New defensive coordinator explains his scheme to management/scouts so they can go out and find compatible players. Weird.
And good coaching, with all of the coaches on the same page, is important too.
But all of this is second fiddle to one basic, fundamental question: Can your General Manager consistently draft good players year in and year out?
Ball's in your court Joe Schoen!
Defense
Stop the run (No)
Rush the passer (Not consistent)
Take the ball away (At times)
Offense
Protect the QB (No, No, No)
Challenge the defense (No)
Protect the ball (At times)
Run when you need to (No)
Roster
Strong in the trenches (No, but maybe better)
Fast explosive playmakers (In theory)
Multiple edge rushers (Getting there)
Smart, Tough, Dependable
Emphasis on high value positions (pass rush, WR) smart defenders and speed on offense.
This. At this point, Lombardi is coming across as a stalker.
seriously every single Lombardi submission on this site is by him
It was framed like the principals were hearing his approach for the first time. And combined with the clip where Daboll is showing Schoen the Titans defensive rankings right in the same breath as deciding to hire him, the film makers made it look like the Giants picked their coordinator out of a grab bag.
I don't think that's the case. But after the Wink fall out, where it appeared Daboll wasn't a particularly active participant in the defense and that the defense and offense were not well calibrated, the Giants look a little sloppy.
Offer up anything. ANYTHING! Nah, low hanging fruit.
He had the Commanders rated better than the Giants.
The guy is a bore. He likes to come across with levity, but when you see through him, you realise he has no special insight into anything football related.
You don’t pick an identity for your team and then go do that. You identify what you think will work, get the players and coaches you think can execute that, and then you practice like hell, making adjustments along the way, until it works or until you have to change course. If you start winning consistently, the things you do well become your team identity.
The view Lombardi presented is just a weak platitude with no value.
In this case, I found his comments interesting. We have a few BBI'ers who are vocal about how NYG has gotten away from what has made them successful in the past. While we have others who think they have been extremely archaic in only hiring GM's that worked under Young's philosophy either via Young directly or Accorsi (Accorsi, Reese & Gettleman).
Where Lombardi is being hypocritical is he was often critical of NYG being way too insular, now they hire outside of their family and they are getting too far from what George Young believed? It does come off like just shitting on the Giants.
In this case, I found his comments interesting. We have a few BBI'ers who are vocal about how NYG has gotten away from what has made them successful in the past. While we have others who think they have been extremely archaic in only hiring GM's that worked under Young's philosophy either via Young directly or Accorsi (Accorsi, Reese & Gettleman).
Where Lombardi is being hypocritical is he was often critical of NYG being way too insular, now they hire outside of their family and they are getting too far from what George Young believed? It does come off like just shitting on the Giants.
it doesnt generate good dialogue, it generates the same repetitive dialogue that's happened a million times on this board - except with the false whiff of legitimacy since he'll never stop milking his 1 season as a GM more than a decade ago.
he fishes for dialogue in whatever way he can because podcast downloads is the only goal. he has flat out made things up in that pursuit w/r/t nyg, like he did with matt rhule. any of his current pearls of wisdom are no more valuable than "matt rhule culture builder extraordinaire" or "josh mcdaniels super genious". how did those organizational identities work out? fine with Mike I guess because each employed his kids.
any coherence you're seeing in his criticisms of the nyg are connected by only 2 things, that they haven't been good and it's an engaged fanbase full of clicks/downloads. ok and a 3rd thing, they dont currently employ any of his kids. the rest is fill in the blanks bullshit.
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but Lombardi is an ass clown yet you continually post his shite...
This. At this point, Lombardi is coming across as a stalker.
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but Lombardi is an ass clown yet you continually post his shite...
This. At this point, Lombardi is coming across as a stalker.
Yep. I mean, we've only heard them say words like smart, tough, dependable, like what? Five million times? It wasn't clear in all the Saquan stuff that they are a pass first team which deemphasizes the running game? It's not apparent that speed and separation are specific qualities in their receivers over big bodies? It wasn't clear with the segment with Shane Bowen that step one was to understand what what's important to the defense? Four pass rushers with penetrators in the middle, the two Middle LBs need to be the smartest defenders on the field... I mean you have to have your head totally up your ass to make a statement like this. I get it --the team has been bad. But some people have completely lost their freaking marbles.
Daboll made due with the leftovers and should be commended for 2022.
The real remaining question is if Jones can get the ball to the skill players.
team identity is basically just whoever the head coach/gm is at that moment. baltimore has had continuity with newsome/decosta/harbough.
indy was 1 way with peyton manning pre-dungy, then they were peyton + tampa 2 with dungy.
rams identity with Les Snead + Jeff Fisher was incompetence. with Les Snead + McVay they are cutting edge.
2/3 of the league has losing coaches so their identity is losing. pretty much that simple.
Daboll made due with the leftovers and should be commended for 2022.
The real remaining question is if Jones can get the ball to the skill players.
the bigger question is health. comp% and comp% above expected haven't historically been his issue. the most productive receiver he's played with is slayton, a downfield target with a high drop rate, and not a ton of RAC.
with short schemed touches and their RAC abilities nabers and wandale in particular should be in for very big seasons even if the downfield stuff remains inconsistent.
https://www.giants.com/video/giants-huddle-wide-receivers - ( New Window )
You could argue the contrary, namely, that the best teams maintain an identity which transcends personnel – but that's seldom true anymore. As other posters have said, how many other teams have a meaningful, recognizable identity? I'll go first: the Cowboys' is All Hat No Cattle. Or Sizzle without Steak. Style before Substance.... I joke, yet there really isn't a competitive team identity.
He may or may not have thought about pivoting to a new QB in the draft, but the Jones Experience has been renewed.
We may not like it - I detest the idea for the 6th time - but that's where we are. Schoen believes in Jones.
Speaking of Slayton, he really comes off as a seasoned pro.
We had a very strong, frequently broadcasted organizational philosophy under Joe Judge...we were going to be tougher, we were going to outwork everyone, and we weren't going to make mistakes. Overly simplistic and not effective - at all.
What is the Chief's organizational philosophy? Have a HOF QB and head coach and let them go to work? But even then, I have seen them win SBs because of the running game and a great defense. The most important thing is to have competence and coherence as an organization. The philosophy, for any organization is to bring in good players, coach them well, and have them play well.
One of the issues in our past has been having a GM and HC with different visions. We have that now. I am sure they know their philosophy, but they aren't going to broadcast it every 5 minutes - even on hard knocks. They are either good or they aren't. We will see. If Evan Neal had turned into the all-pro we thought he would be and if JMS had played really well, we would be talking about our strategy of building the team from the bottom up with the best bookends in Football and a solid interior with our FA acquisitions. But it hasn't worked out. If Nabors turns out to be an all-pro and Hyatt and Robinson emerge, we will talk about our organizational speed. We have two potentially great pass rushers. Perhaps that will be our philosophy.
It really just comes down to whether they play well or not. Are they coached well. Are they developed well. Like many of you, I can't identify an organizational philosophy in many NFL teams - except perhaps teams like Detroit that will supposedly punch everyone in the mouth and go for it all the time, until the playoffs, when that philosophy causes them to lose games.
Continuity, cohesion and culture are the reason that teams win.
But let’s not confuse incompetence with no identity. This team has just been completely incompetent at evaluating the offensive line and to boot they have a bad quarterback who doesn’t help the line pre or post snap. They want to throw the ball but have had to adapt due to incompetence. This off-season they invested in a WR, TE, and the OL and are moving away from the high priced RB because they want to throw the ball.
He may or may not have thought about pivoting to a new QB in the draft, but the Jones Experience has been renewed.
We may not like it - I detest the idea for the 6th time - but that's where we are. Schoen believes in Jones.
Sadly, Hard Knocks appears to have confirmed that you have been right about this for a long time now. Schoen and Daboll will sink or swim with DJ now.
Philosophical identity is a "result", not a "cause". The misery of Joe Judge was that he attempted to define and establish an identity rather than simply attempting to become a winner. Doing all of the mud slides in the world will never make up for passing on Micah Parsons for Kadarius Toney. Or passing on Josh Allen for Daniel Jones. Or passing on Justin Herbert because of Daniel Jones. The Gettleman trifecta! Not only in terms of missing out on the self-evident talent, but also in the catastrophic hit to locker room credibility that the franchise has a clue as to what it is doing. You cannot make big mistakes in identifying, selecting and retaining talent in this sport. It is fatal.
Had the Saints simply been smart enough to select LT and not George Rodgers in 1981, perhaps the Saints have four Lombardi trophies and we are still without a championship like the Browns or Lions.
Philosophical identity is a "result", not a "cause". The misery of Joe Judge was that he attempted to define and establish an identity rather than simply attempting to become a winner. Doing all of the mud slides in the world will never make up for passing on Micah Parsons for Kadarius Toney. Or passing on Josh Allen for Daniel Jones. Or passing on Justin Herbert because of Daniel Jones. The Gettleman trifecta! Not only in terms of missing out on the self-evident talent, but also in the catastrophic hit to locker room credibility that the franchise has a clue as to what it is doing. You cannot make big mistakes in identifying, selecting and retaining talent in this sport. It is fatal.
Had the Saints simply been smart enough to select LT and not George Rodgers in 1981, perhaps the Saints have four Lombardi trophies and we are still without a championship like the Browns or Lions.
Excellent post.
Philosophical identity is a "result", not a "cause". The misery of Joe Judge was that he attempted to define and establish an identity rather than simply attempting to become a winner. Doing all of the mud slides in the world will never make up for passing on Micah Parsons for Kadarius Toney. Or passing on Josh Allen for Daniel Jones. Or passing on Justin Herbert because of Daniel Jones. The Gettleman trifecta! Not only in terms of missing out on the self-evident talent, but also in the catastrophic hit to locker room credibility that the franchise has a clue as to what it is doing. You cannot make big mistakes in identifying, selecting and retaining talent in this sport. It is fatal.
Had the Saints simply been smart enough to select LT and not George Rodgers in 1981, perhaps the Saints have four Lombardi trophies and we are still without a championship like the Browns or Lions.
Good post. And it aligns to why you wanted the Giants to draft Nabers so badly. They need high end talent.
Nothing more, nothing less. Bringing up George Young, who Giants fans obviously love and know well, had his struggles in the 90's. Can't always be perfect.
with short schemed touches and their RAC abilities nabers and wandale in particular should be in for very big seasons even if the downfield stuff remains inconsistent.
YAC has not been an issue for Slayton under Kafka. In 2023 he was 11th among NFL WRs with 6.0 YAC/R, in 2022 he was 8th among receivers at 5.7 YAC/R. Pre-Kafka is a different story.
Maybe Wandale gets a mulligan for returning from injury but on 79 targets Slayton had 298 YAC last year, and on 78 targets Robinson had 238. I'm firmly of the opinion Nabers will get the catch and run targets Robinson got last year.
If the offense is the low air yards, high volume approach of 2022 then yes, Jones has showcased he can do that. But in 2022 he also had fewer than 2 deep attempts per game. If he can't stretch the field more, it's certainly easier to keep the shorter stuff in front of them on defense.
And teams that win have some sort of mystical "identity" and teams that lose don't.
And teams that win have some sort of mystical "identity" and teams that lose don't.
I think identity is synonymous with "does something well." It's no big mystery shitty teams don't do anything well.
And teams that win have some sort of mystical "identity" and teams that lose don't.
I think there's an identity that's persisted over those 30 years: a family driven enterprise that's heavily nepotistic and slow to adapt to change.
The major changes in the NFL (the merger, FA/salary cap, Polian passing rules/rookie wage scale) have been followed by long periods of poor decisions and bad Giants football.
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but Lombardi is an ass clown yet you continually post his shite...
This. At this point, Lombardi is coming across as a stalker.
Stalker is the right word! It’s as if someone at Giants HQ has shit in his coffee!
Lombardi is a hack.
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The Giants philosophical "Big Blue Wrecking Crew" identity of the 1970s was "nice" but largely irrelevant until Lawrence Taylor came along in 1981. Add the leadership of Parcells, the character of Simms and a championship in 1986, and the philosophical identity that characterized this franchise for thirty years was born.
Philosophical identity is a "result", not a "cause". The misery of Joe Judge was that he attempted to define and establish an identity rather than simply attempting to become a winner. Doing all of the mud slides in the world will never make up for passing on Micah Parsons for Kadarius Toney. Or passing on Josh Allen for Daniel Jones. Or passing on Justin Herbert because of Daniel Jones. The Gettleman trifecta! Not only in terms of missing out on the self-evident talent, but also in the catastrophic hit to locker room credibility that the franchise has a clue as to what it is doing. You cannot make big mistakes in identifying, selecting and retaining talent in this sport. It is fatal.
Had the Saints simply been smart enough to select LT and not George Rodgers in 1981, perhaps the Saints have four Lombardi trophies and we are still without a championship like the Browns or Lions.
Good post. And it aligns to why you wanted the Giants to draft Nabers so badly. They need high end talent.
I still would have preferred Drake Maye... not trading Barkley and McKinney at the trade deadline made no sense.
Look at the Patriots. They were great when they had great players. Once that dried up, the same "identity" started failing. Players are the key here...dominant players make dominant teams.
Things have changed in the NFL in the last 20, 30, 50 years, thanks to rule changes. The game is now a passing game, with the run being less important. Defenses now compete with speed/pressure, with size being less important.
Because of the rule changes, the QB position is vital to a team's success. You can't compete for a championship without a top tier QB. QB's who "manage" the game simply won't cut it.
I guess the conversion from the old NFL "grind and pound" pre merger to the American Football League "Mad Bombers" is almost complete. Like it or not, that's the way the game is going.
I think that's right. They took 3 legitimate swings at improving the pass catchers last year in Hyatt, Campbell, and Waller. None of those really moved the needle for various reasons.
The pass catching group on paper should be very efficient this year. Schoen said they needed a number one receiver and they unequivocally got one.
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I've run this site, I've noticed that Giants fans love teams that win and hate teams that lose.
And teams that win have some sort of mystical "identity" and teams that lose don't.
I think there's an identity that's persisted over those 30 years: a family driven enterprise that's heavily nepotistic and slow to adapt to change.
The major changes in the NFL (the merger, FA/salary cap, Polian passing rules/rookie wage scale) have been followed by long periods of poor decisions and bad Giants football.
this is correct but the pros/cons of both sides need to be understood.
their nepotistic preference directly led to hiring coughlin,
their hands off ownership style allowed EA enormous trust to make the move for Eli,
their slowness directly led to not giving into the pressure to fire Coughlin, pressure that was even more enormous than the trust given to EA, and they got 2 super bowls because of it.
you can add the promoting of Jerry Reese to the list of things they did that were key to winning 2 SBs and having a very solid first decade of the modern era.
the second decade was a disaster because they bungled moving on from all of the above, but that too needs context. replacing any 1 of those people would have been hard, which is why they were hesitant to do so.
replacing all of them correctly would have been close to impossible - and with their inability to accurately evaluate their own leadership it was actually impossible. the only hope surviving post-Coughlin/Eli was if Jerry Reese had been a truly elite executive but he unfortunately wasn't.
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the bigger question is health. comp% and comp% above expected haven't historically been his issue. the most productive receiver he's played with is slayton, a downfield target with a high drop rate, and not a ton of RAC.
with short schemed touches and their RAC abilities nabers and wandale in particular should be in for very big seasons even if the downfield stuff remains inconsistent.
YAC has not been an issue for Slayton under Kafka. In 2023 he was 11th among NFL WRs with 6.0 YAC/R, in 2022 he was 8th among receivers at 5.7 YAC/R. Pre-Kafka is a different story.
Maybe Wandale gets a mulligan for returning from injury but on 79 targets Slayton had 298 YAC last year, and on 78 targets Robinson had 238. I'm firmly of the opinion Nabers will get the catch and run targets Robinson got last year.
If the offense is the low air yards, high volume approach of 2022 then yes, Jones has showcased he can do that. But in 2022 he also had fewer than 2 deep attempts per game. If he can't stretch the field more, it's certainly easier to keep the shorter stuff in front of them on defense.
slayton's yac improvement is real however remember he can add chunks of rac yards downfield from the point of the catch on, which is yac but running by people downfield is not quite the same as making guys miss. attempts that far downfield are lower probability compared to an easy dump off around the LOS that can turn into a chunk.
last year 209 of wandale's yac yards were on catches 0-9 yards downfield. 63 of them were behind LOS.
slayton had 123 0-9 and 28 behind the LOS. he had more downfield including 97 on 20+ yards downfield (wandale only had 5 such yac yards).
so even in the rehab year wandale had almost twice as much YAC production around the LOS making people miss. that is his game and i suspect nabers will also get a lot of usage there.
Schoen clearly has a sense of what he wants to do. Go vertical, protect the passer, get the D off the field, and have an offense that scores points. Doesn’t mean he’ll be successful, but saying he doesn’t have an identity for the team is foolish.
with short schemed touches and their RAC abilities nabers and wandale in particular should be in for very big seasons even if the downfield stuff remains inconsistent.
YAC has not been an issue for Slayton under Kafka. In 2023 he was 11th among NFL WRs with 6.0 YAC/R, in 2022 he was 8th among receivers at 5.7 YAC/R. Pre-Kafka is a different story.
Maybe Wandale gets a mulligan for returning from injury but on 79 targets Slayton had 298 YAC last year, and on 78 targets Robinson had 238. I'm firmly of the opinion Nabers will get the catch and run targets Robinson got last year.
If the offense is the low air yards, high volume approach of 2022 then yes, Jones has showcased he can do that. But in 2022 he also had fewer than 2 deep attempts per game. If he can't stretch the field more, it's certainly easier to keep the shorter stuff in front of them on defense.
slayton's yac improvement is real however remember he can add chunks of rac yards downfield from the point of the catch on, which is yac but running by people downfield is not quite the same as making guys miss. attempts that far downfield are lower probability compared to an easy dump off around the LOS that can turn into a chunk.
last year 209 of wandale's yac yards were on catches 0-9 yards downfield. 63 of them were behind LOS.
slayton had 123 0-9 and 28 behind the LOS. he had more downfield including 97 on 20+ yards downfield (wandale only had 5 such yac yards).
so even in the rehab year wandale had almost twice as much YAC production around the LOS making people miss. that is his game and i suspect nabers will also get a lot of usage there.
I don't disagree Slayton is a different type of receiver than Robinson, and potentially Nabers, but the yards all count the same and require making people miss.
At the end of the day a player like Slayton eating up 770 yards on 79 targets is better than Robinson eating 525 on 78.
Look at the Patriots. They were great when they had great players. Once that dried up, the same "identity" started failing. Players are the key here...dominant players make dominant teams.
Things have changed in the NFL in the last 20, 30, 50 years, thanks to rule changes. The game is now a passing game, with the run being less important. Defenses now compete with speed/pressure, with size being less important.
Because of the rule changes, the QB position is vital to a team's success. You can't compete for a championship without a top tier QB. QB's who "manage" the game simply won't cut it.
I guess the conversion from the old NFL "grind and pound" pre merger to the American Football League "Mad Bombers" is almost complete. Like it or not, that's the way the game is going.
The NFL is a copy cat league. Everyone saw KC win it throwing the ball hitting the 15-20 yard zones in the playoffs so now we very one wants to do that. No
Schoen clearly has a sense of what he wants to do. Go vertical, protect the passer, get the D off the field, and have an offense that scores points. Doesn’t mean he’ll be successful, but saying he doesn’t have an identity for the team is foolish.
Well, to be clear, it's Daboll's system and Schoen is leading the search to find the pieces.
The part I doubt we will ever know is if Daboll really believes in Jones or if he's being a good soldier, following orders, and will try to make the Jones take the next step.
If Skinny Daboll fires a tablet at him, that'll answer the question.
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The part I doubt we will ever know is if Daboll really believes in Jones or if he's being a good soldier, following orders, and will try to make the Jones take the next step.
If Skinny Daboll fires a tablet at him, that'll answer the question.
When Fat Dabs threw the tablet in the Seattle game, I thought that was end of the Jones Era.
If Skinny Daboll fires a tablet at him, that'll answer the question.
When Fat Dabs threw the tablet in the Seattle game, I thought that was end of the Jones Era.
Fat Dabs was part of doing everything possible to make it hard for the kid. They asked Dabs to slim down.
Barring the unexpected, Jones will be starting Week 1 vs. Minnesota. But I think it'll be a short leash if he doesn't play well.
Barring the unexpected, Jones will be starting Week 1 vs. Minnesota. But I think it'll be a short leash if he doesn't play well.
When they get a load of how crappy Lock is later this month, that leash will be pretty long for Jones.
And teams that win have some sort of mystical "identity" and teams that lose don't.
Next week will be interesting to see how the QB evaluation is portrayed.
The Bills traded out of picking Mahomes to the Chiefs (a team they now can't beat in the playoffs). Yet, no one talks about it because they landed Josh Allen.
The Giants will look like fools if any of those hit and they still haven't resolved QB in 2-3 years.
Next week will be interesting to see how the QB evaluation is portrayed.
There are a lot of ways to improve the position. They could have traded out of #6. It's the Giants biggest need but they behave like they have the position solved.
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I think there's a good chance Dabs is out on Jones. That's just a guess obviously. Remember how giddy he was with Jones on 1/1/23 during/after that Colts game? I think that admiration is long gone.
Barring the unexpected, Jones will be starting Week 1 vs. Minnesota. But I think it'll be a short leash if he doesn't play well.
When they get a load of how crappy Lock is later this month, that leash will be pretty long for Jones.
Maybe. But Lock is more of a downfield thrower. He might fit the Daboll offense better than Jones.
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Well-& I've said this before-if just one of JJ, Nix, or Penix hit...the Giants are going to look like fools. And I know the caveat that QBs are helped by their environment (Is Mahomes THE Mahomes if he was drafted by Jacksonville instead of KC? Doubtful)...but it's going to be a bad, bad look for this regime after giving Jones that contract.
The Bills traded out of picking Mahomes to the Chiefs (a team they now can't beat in the playoffs). Yet, no one talks about it because they landed Josh Allen.
The Giants will look like fools if any of those hit and they still haven't resolved QB in 2-3 years.
Which is a very distinct possibility.
Based on how John & 'The Nephew' were talking about Saquon, I can only imagine how they feel about Jones.
Jones hasn't been good, but Dabka got the most of out of him in 2022.
Lock is more physically gifted than Jones. He has a plus arm. So, I don't it's a stretch to think Dabka could get to the bottom of Lock; and he plays his best football.
Even before the ACL tear opposing Ds took away his ability to run.
Well, I think we're spinning our wheels @ this point with Jones.
I have to watch the episode again. A lot of the Jones discussion seemed centered on his injuries and bad luck. But I think based on their actions and some of the content in the show, Lombardi fairly concludes that the Giants have evaluated Jones to be better than many outside the team think he is. It explains a lot. It explains the contract. It explains the decision to not go hard for an alternative. Until they bench Jones, something they have never done even though he has played poorly for long stretches, I think it is fair to say the organization continues to treat him as a franchise QB. Maybe not specific individuals. Maybe not Daboll. But the organization -- yes.
Also, this was one of the worst GMs in the NFL history with the Cleveland Browns and he is constantly referred to as some sort of "expert."
He drafted Barkevious Mingo 6th overall and people take his word as gospel. Amazing!
By "length" you actually mean "height" right? So sick of this football vernacular...
By "length" you actually mean "height" right? So sick of this football vernacular...
Well you'll be glad to know when people use the term length they're typically referring to some combination of height and limb length. So your sensibilities can rest easy tonight.
I agree he isn't the answer. But as a downfield thrower he is definitely better than Tommy D. And he might be better than Tyrod. And those guys had some throwing success in Daboll's system. Maybe Lock can do better than we think in these circumstances, until we find a stud.
Also, this was one of the worst GMs in the NFL history with the Cleveland Browns and he is constantly referred to as some sort of "expert."
He drafted Barkevious Mingo 6th overall and people take his word as gospel. Amazing!
How to be , Eddie. Lombardi playing his usual role as Giant detractor . Not saying the last 10 years have been fun. Most years they sucked . But the philosophy angle is , at best, symptom not cause . They stopped getting enough good players .
There's too many people involved in the decision making process. The Giants don't have an overall philosophical sense of who they are. They adapt to their coaches rather then having coaches adapting to them. Etc...
Talent doesn't create culture, culture exposes talent.
Right now their identity should be about making better decisions in the front office, on the practice field, on the sidelines and under center. Then lets see what identity evolves.
Lombardi has no identity either
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but Lombardi is an ass clown yet you continually post his shite...
This. At this point, Lombardi is coming across as a stalker.
Lombardi is a jack ass.. he has an OBVIOUS axe to Grind with the Giants organization so I pay attention to NOTHING he says about the Giants because he simply cannot be objective
Is that the philosophy he was talking about?
On defense - Wink underachieved and now we enter the Bowen regime.
When that identity went away rooted in the great destruction of the LoS the franchise fell on hard times. They still have not recovered.
I think it's pretty clear what the Schoen/Daboll philosophy is on offense: vertical passing with speed players. Slayton, Nabers and Hyatt are a very fast trio. Robinson isn't as straight line fast but he's super quick. With a good OL and a good QB they can be a very dangerous group.
Defensively I think Lombardi has a point. I'll reserve judgment until I see how the defense plays this year. I think the defense Bowen says he wants to play fits the style/philosophy of how the Giants played defense when they had their best years.
From what I saw and heard on Hard Knocks I think the Giants have upgraded at DC. I hope we don't have to watch Trey Hawkins playing press on Tyreek Hill on the wide side of the field with no safety help again. I hope we don't have to watch the Giants give up 600 yards in one game to Dallas. Or 89 points in 2 games.
But right now I don't see the 4 elite pash rushers Bowen is looking for. Dex sure, Burns supposedly but I've never seen him play, Thibodeaux has not shown anything near an elite pass rush in his two years. That's only 3 guys. Who would be #4? And what happens if any of those 3 get hurt?
The entire secondary is one big question mark. Banks and Pinnock seem to be sure starters. Both are young and have shown flashes of being above average. They've both struggled at times too. There's no starting CB2, no starting CB3, no starting FS with any NFL experience. With an average or below average pass rush how effective will the secondary be?
Schoen clearly has a sense of what he wants to do. Go vertical, protect the passer, get the D off the field, and have an offense that scores points. Doesn’t mean he’ll be successful, but saying he doesn’t have an identity for the team is foolish.
Even Reese (basketball on grass) and Gettleman (hog mollies) had philosophies, even if the former failed in the 2nd half of his tenure and the latter failed entirely.
When that identity went away rooted in the great destruction of the LoS the franchise fell on hard times. They still have not recovered.
Perhaps.
However IMO the game has changed a lot since those days. The Giants organization has not adapted well to those changes.
If you do not adapt, you die.