(1) When he was first hired by the Giants, and we had a chance to see/hear his first few press conferences, I think just about everyone felt he was such a breath of fresh air after Dave Gettleman.
(2) He was (and still is) much more polished in front of the camera/press and just seems to have a better overall grasp of the modern-day job/task of an NFL GM in all its myriad complexities.
(3) He also just seems to fit in much better with his fellow GMs -- he seems to know more of them; he seems to get along with more of them; he seems to be in contact with them more often; and he certainly looks like more of them in terms of age and overall hip, cool, prepped-out appearance.
(4) He also seems to be out on the road more often than Dave Gettleman attending/scouting numerous college football games.
(5) And my guess is that Joe Schoen has implemented several internal organizational changes that represent an improvement over Dave Gettleman's regime.
(6) And on top of all that, his team somehow, someway actually made the playoffs in his first term as GM when everyone knew he had taken on a mega re-building project. All of which served to only enhance all his positive attributes that were on full display.
(7) But after his second season, all of the above now seems like a precious vase that lies shattered on the floor. And whether or not Joe Schoen succeeds in changing the trajectory of this franchise is anyone's guess.
We don't know much about what happens behind the curtain. (Even with Hard Knocks). However from the outside it seems like the key decisions that have been made were sound, and made sense at the time they were made. Not everything works out.
As we know.....the NFL is not fair, last year's team might have been more talented than 2022....Injuries, a tougher schedule and horrible OL play....and the team was just not ready.....which has more to do with Daboll in 23.
As "on paper" means little.....we need to wait....but this team is better on paper.
Let's hope the coaches play nicer in the sand box.....and Injuries do not dismantle any area.
8 If Technology matter.....the Giants have modernized their site.
And he has several executives working under him.....that is fair to say the braintrust is top notch.
We watch other young inexperienced hot shot GMs and Head Coaches win.
Last year would’ve been written off as a lost year due to ridiculous injury, but there’s no appetite for that. It happened at a bad time. All these guys either prove their meddle this year or turn into pumpkins.
Bottom line is, dealt with a ton of injuries and battled to 6 wins.
The team is much better than what the record showed IMO.
You’d have a point if the team was 5-1 when they lost the QB for the season. They weren’t. They were 1-5. That season went off the rails long before Jones got injured. People aren’t “overreacting”. They are simply “reacting” to what we seen on the field
Bottom line is, dealt with a ton of injuries and battled to 6 wins.
The team is much better than what the record showed IMO.
The unbelievable number of injuries last season made it virtually impossible to rate the team. They rolled out what was likely the worst O line the NFL has ever seen for a couple of games. And while they were a handful of plays from picking one or two in the draft, they were also just a few plays from winning 9 games, which would have been incredible based on the situation. Not only that, they beat Philly once and came close in the other game. Compare that to the playoff loss a year earlier.
Bottom line is, dealt with a ton of injuries and battled to 6 wins.
The team is much better than what the record showed IMO.
Assuming Jones would have beaten the Jets and Bills is disingenuous, at best. The reason they were in those games was because of the insanely conservative game plans while playing back up QBs. Unless you somehow believe Daboll would have refused to allow Jones to throw the he ball against the Jets, you’d have to assume they’d have been more aggressive with their $40M investment which very likely would have led to a bunch of sacks and turnovers that they didn’t suffer while running the ball on every damn play. I’m not saying DeVito or Taylor are better than Jones so don’t get your panties in a bunch but it’s very likely those two games would have had much larger spreads had Jones played. Those teams would have feasted on that pass protection.
None of that means that he’ll be successful, but at least he’s being allowed to do the job he was hired to do.
Not keeping ONE of Love/Mckinney and then using a premium pick to backfill two homegrown talents - this was a huge waste (whole point of letting Love walk is we have Mckinney)
Has not solved CB2 (another slot guy drafted but those boundary corners were there for the Burns pick)
Paid Jones too much
Evan Neal has not paid off, nor has Ezedu, Mckethan or JMS (although too early) OL needed all the FA money aside from Burns
Not super happy with him, he better fuckin win this year.
As we know.....the NFL is not fair, last year's team might have been more talented than 2022....Injuries, a tougher schedule and horrible OL play....and the team was just not ready.....which has more to do with Daboll in 23.
As "on paper" means little.....we need to wait....but this team is better on paper.
Let's hope the coaches play nicer in the sand box.....and Injuries do not dismantle any area.
8 If Technology matter.....the Giants have modernized their site.
And he has several executives working under him.....that is fair to say the braintrust is top notch.
More than a bit hyperbolic.
Presumably like most of BBI, OP expected 8-10 wins last season. Rarely do so many thing go so wrong as with the '23 Giants, and it's likely the OL they were forced to trot out (because of bad planning and bad luck; maybe we'll also eventually find out it was bad drafting too) was literally the worst in NFL history. Yet they finished 2-4 wins behind projected.
Nothing about '23 invalidates the Schoen plan. As noted in HK, it's his team now. Last year was a mulligan; if things go totally pear-shaped again, he may not get another.
I use the linked New Yorker cartoon in speaking engagements to illustrate the point. Tactical setbacks are inevitable; executive's job is to keep perspective (and ensure their entire organization does) while course correcting as necessary.
Success is rarely linear - ( New Window )
Not trading Saquon, now he walks to our rival -
If they traded Saquon at that moment - it would have been demoralizing to the rest of the team. Giving up. What do you think they could have gotten for him at that point with the new team needing to pay him?
Not keeping ONE of Love/Mckinney and then using a premium pick to backfill two homegrown talents - this was a huge waste (whole point of letting Love walk is we have Mckinney)
Love was a bad decision in hindsight, but the money used it pay Slayton (is that right? which was good)
I liked Love and they apparently offered him similar/more than got with Seattle? Every negotiation effects the next one. You can't cave to a guy like Love.
McKinney is a very good player being played like an elite one. I agree with the decision to spend the money elsewhere and using the draft pick to replace him.
Has not solved CB2 (another slot guy drafted but those boundary corners were there for the Burns pick)
Getting an elite pass rusher is a no-brainer IMO.
There are still good vet CBs about there, but rolling with the young talent is a plan I can get behind.
Paid Jones too much -
yup
Even at the time I thought so, but they thought they could lose him and that was untenable at that moment.
Evan Neal has not paid off, nor has Ezedu, Mckethan or JMS (although too early) OL needed all the FA money aside from Burns.
Yup. But Neal was the right pick at the time.
The others...seems like a good point of criticism right now.
We don't know much about what happens behind the curtain. (Even with Hard Knocks). However from the outside it seems like the key decisions that have been made were sound, and made sense at the time they were made. Not everything works out.
I honestly don't know if they are going in the right direction. I want to believe they are. But not sure. I'm fairly neutral about their current speed of "progress."
As we know.....the NFL is not fair, last year's team might have been more talented than 2022....Injuries, a tougher schedule and horrible OL play....and the team was just not ready.....which has more to do with Daboll in 23.
As "on paper" means little.....we need to wait....but this team is better on paper.
Let's hope the coaches play nicer in the sand box.....and Injuries do not dismantle any area.
8 If Technology matter.....the Giants have modernized their site.
And he has several executives working under him.....that is fair to say the braintrust is top notch.
I'll be the first too admit that the shattered vase analogy could be unfair / too strong. But I'm afraid that doens't change my confusion as to whether or not Joe Schoen can/will right this boat.
This is his 3rd offseason
No doubt they were devastating and make it very hard to assess that team, but I seem to recall that when Joe Schoen was hired, he clearly placed the Giants "injury bug" on the table as something he was going to attack head on. I'm not going to ding our GM for that. But I'm still left with an unclear view as to whether or not he will achieve the sort of success that can be built upon and sustained.
I am clueless.
No doubt they were devastating and make it very hard to assess that team, but I seem to recall that when Joe Schoen was hired, he clearly placed the Giants "injury bug" on the table as something he was going to attack head on. I'm not going to ding our GM for that. But I'm still left with an unclear view as to whether or not he will achieve the sort of success that can be built upon and sustained.
I am clueless.
Every GM we’ve hired has said that about the injuries. And many other GMs around the league as well. It’s not in their control as we, above maybe any fan base, know.
And that you don’t have a clear view is just what you should expect given where Schoen started. We haven’t seen year three yet. I think we’re just approaching average. Just what we should expect.
Quote:
Or just not fast enough in the right direction?
We don't know much about what happens behind the curtain. (Even with Hard Knocks). However from the outside it seems like the key decisions that have been made were sound, and made sense at the time they were made. Not everything works out.
I honestly don't know if they are going in the right direction. I want to believe they are. But not sure. I'm fairly neutral about their current speed of "progress."
Sorry about that -- to answer your question directly, I don't believe Joe Schoen is taking the Giants in the wrong direction.
That said, whether he's spinning his wheels in neutral or going decidely forward is IMO the great unknown.
The bigger question right now is the success of the players they invested draft capital in. There are some nice players, and a few hits, but they've had a lot of "at-bats" in the draft, and right now not enough of those guys are difference makers.
If its another year where we are waiting for year 2-3 guys to break out, I think it will be fair to question this team from a scouting & talent evaluation standpoint - (which is weird considering that is Schoen's background).
The trades, free agency, waiver pickups, contract management etc. have all been lightyears better under this regime. They NEED to start hitting on picks.
Quote:
No doubt they were devastating and make it very hard to assess that team, but I seem to recall that when Joe Schoen was hired, he clearly placed the Giants "injury bug" on the table as something he was going to attack head on. I'm not going to ding our GM for that. But I'm still left with an unclear view as to whether or not he will achieve the sort of success that can be built upon and sustained.
I am clueless.
Every GM we’ve hired has said that about the injuries. And many other GMs around the league as well. It’s not in their control as we, above maybe any fan base, know.
And that you don’t have a clear view is just what you should expect given where Schoen started. We haven’t seen year three yet. I think we’re just approaching average. Just what we should expect.
Year 3 will be very interesting. Maybe above all else, I am hoping a few questions get answered such as "x" number of young players stepping forward (up to the next level) and a coaching staff that consistently prepares their players for each and every game (win or lose.) Would love to hear -- at the end of the season -- that most of our opponents said the Giants were a very tough out. (Of course, winning would also be nice!)
The bigger question right now is the success of the players they invested draft capital in. There are some nice players, and a few hits, but they've had a lot of "at-bats" in the draft, and right now not enough of those guys are difference makers.
If its another year where we are waiting for year 2-3 guys to break out, I think it will be fair to question this team from a scouting & talent evaluation standpoint - (which is weird considering that is Schoen's background).
The trades, free agency, waiver pickups, contract management etc. have all been lightyears better under this regime. They NEED to start hitting on picks.
I think you are dead-on about hitting on Draft Picks. Just about everything else pales in comparison.
They overachieved in 2022. Instead of continuing to build little by little.. they tried to push the envelope and it backfired..
Now they have to reset a bit..
What " fans " I believe by and large have missed is just how utterly broken this organization was from the top down..
Behind on technology (when Schoen arrived they were still using magnet boards in the draft room to move players around on the board) ,
Information gathering ( we ALL know they were woefully behind in analytics)
Training (Tiki Barber said when he was drafted by the Giants they didnt even have Ice tubs). Now they are using different data to help monitor players in an effort to improve player health and HOPEFULLY help cut down injury.
Scouting was antiquated and behind the times. Too many old heads in position. They had to revamp the entire scouting department after Schoen's first draft..
All of this is some of the things Schoen was brought in to access and deal with.. Its not JUST the wins and losses.. but the hope is that fixing these issues will lead to a continously competitive organization like Ravens, Steelers, Chiefs, Eagles, Bills, Dallas.. teams that are at the very least are in the hunt every year.
Aside from Okreke, what impact players has he added? Have the drafts been anything other than average so far?
Add in the tripling down on Jones, and what looks like a hideous contract, and you have a very underwhelming performance so far from our stylish looking GM.
What's a bigger problem for this franchise right now? Jones? Schoen? Or both?
Aside from Okreke, what impact players has he added? Have the drafts been anything other than average so far?
Add in the tripling down on Jones, and what looks like a hideous contract, and you have a very underwhelming performance so far from our stylish looking GM.
What's a bigger problem for this franchise right now? Jones? Schoen? Or both?
daboll isnt here without him so that's where his credit starts. i think more highly of daboll so far than schoen too, though i think schoen is generally competent. he's just hit a lot more singles than homers to this point.
He had a successful season 1, but unfortunately didn't follow it up with a successful year 2. There were mistakes made, some obvious, some a little harder to notice, but there are signs that he learns from him.
This post season very much feels like there is a plan towards building a specific type of team, we never had this with Gettleman. He values pass rush on defense and speed on offense, we're clearly moving towards being a pass first team vs run first.
One last thing I'll add in, after 2022 I still think he got pressure from ownership to push a "win now" agenda. I've mentioned it before and haven't changed my stance, Mara is what I'd refer to as a "passive aggressive meddler", just look at his comments about Barkley on Hard Knocks. Even after Schoen told him he wouldn't be on the team Mara just had to mumble "Gee, I'd really like to keep him...".
I'm starting to think that Schoen is learning to take Mara's comments with a grain of salt which is good. I'm hopeful for this season though I still think Jones holds us back.
It is going into year three, so a little early to draw any definitive conclusions, but to me the jury is still out. The Oline is still a question mark, largely because of a possible top-10 bust. He let the best player on the team walk for no compensation at all, and he whiffed badly on the QB decision and as of yet has nothing in place to resolve it.
I would say so far I lean towards disappointment in Schoen, but we need to start seeing some fruit blossom from his decisions sooner rather than later.
The OL and RB have to play at an average level at least. Okereke has been his best pickup.
Quote:
In comment 16549624 M.S. said:
Quote:
No doubt they were devastating and make it very hard to assess that team, but I seem to recall that when Joe Schoen was hired, he clearly placed the Giants "injury bug" on the table as something he was going to attack head on. I'm not going to ding our GM for that. But I'm still left with an unclear view as to whether or not he will achieve the sort of success that can be built upon and sustained.
I am clueless.
Every GM we’ve hired has said that about the injuries. And many other GMs around the league as well. It’s not in their control as we, above maybe any fan base, know.
And that you don’t have a clear view is just what you should expect given where Schoen started. We haven’t seen year three yet. I think we’re just approaching average. Just what we should expect.
Year 3 will be very interesting. Maybe above all else, I am hoping a few questions get answered such as "x" number of young players stepping forward (up to the next level) and a coaching staff that consistently prepares their players for each and every game (win or lose.) Would love to hear -- at the end of the season -- that most of our opponents said the Giants were a very tough out. (Of course, winning would also be nice!)
Right. That’s the level of expectation we should have. Seeing a reasonably competitive team.
Quote:
Lots of fans are overreacting to the 2023 season. Not much you can do when you lose your left tackle and starting QB for a majority of the season.
How about reacting to the last two seasons? We started off 7-2, finished the season 2-5-1 until the "Greatest Playoff Performance Ever" TM followed by the disaster in Philadelphia. Since that high water mark on November 13, 2022, we have gone 8-16-1 in the regular season. How is it "overreacting" to losing 2/3 of your games over two seasons?
And how much credit do you give Joe Schoen for the limited success in 2022? That was largely Gettleman's roster. Daboll is the one who developed an offense even Daniel Jones could run somewhat effectively until the rest of the league (absent the Colts and Vikings) figured it out.
How many bites at the Apple before we have a competent OL
Finally, the big ? For me is did he consider trading Saquon for draft capital
How many bites at the Apple before we have a competent OL
Finally, the big ? For me is did he consider trading Saquon for draft capital
Totally agree on points 1 and 3
As for point 2…literally every lineman he has drafted has had injury issues
Hard to criticize him for that…let’s just hope the FA acquisitions pan out
Quote:
Lots of fans are overreacting to the 2023 season. Not much you can do when you lose your left tackle and starting QB for a majority of the season.
How about reacting to the last two seasons? We started off 7-2, finished the season 2-5-1 until the "Greatest Playoff Performance Ever" TM followed by the disaster in Philadelphia. Since that high water mark on November 13, 2022, we have gone 8-16-1 in the regular season. How is it "overreacting" to losing 2/3 of your games over two seasons?
HJ, only positive trends matter... negative trends are hand waved away
I don't have a problem with people being lukewarm about Joe. I am too. I don't think he's been a complete disaster, but I think he has more misses than hits.
I think BD is over rated. 2022 was the first season that DJ, SB and AT all played together and healthy. Biggest factor in some middling offense success imv.
Overall, both are too perimeter oriented for me but we'll see.
I mean, really tried.
Quote:
to Schoen for 2022. That team's key contributors were basically all Gettleman players, so Daboll should receive the lion's share of the credit.
Aside from Okreke, what impact players has he added? Have the drafts been anything other than average so far?
Add in the tripling down on Jones, and what looks like a hideous contract, and you have a very underwhelming performance so far from our stylish looking GM.
What's a bigger problem for this franchise right now? Jones? Schoen? Or both?
daboll isnt here without him so that's where his credit starts. i think more highly of daboll so far than schoen too, though i think schoen is generally competent. he's just hit a lot more singles than homers to this point.
That's true. Schoen did hire Daboll. So, he deserves credit.
But it certainly has been way too many singles.
Because folks think this was a two year rebuild and it’s closer to a four year rebuild. So, if you’re looking down the road I think you can be optimistic. If you think we should already be a playoff team then not so much.
I think he's fine. He's basically a modern GM, same as most other teams have. I want a good strategy and process. I think there's lot of luck/chance/variance when it comes to the draft (look at the Seahawks as an example of this).
Across sports, teams are getting smarter and more homogonized. We have a normal modern GM. After that, there's a lot of luck involved.
His handling of the QB situation is a disaster though and that is the most important thing. It's hard to find the right guy. It's not hard to try. He hasn't tried yet and that is a very bad sign.
Unlike most I think the DJ deal is a plus for him. A two year out for $80MM is pretty good when you look what QBs are getting.
The guy who I like but think should be on the hot seat is Daboll. If DJ was a big mistake it is more on him than Schoen. He had to sign off on DJ being capable and no one was better positioned than him to make that judgment. If Schoen made that signing without Daboll's endorsement then fire him. But even more, lots of things, big and small, that have a bad look on Daboll last year: People management, not having the OL practice and play together, Eric Gray at returner, firing of position coaches that he hired - OL, DC, ST, etc., keeping Peart over Phillips, and worst the team seemed completely unprepared for opening day. Just a lot didn't make sense. Hopefully, that all improves going forward or is overblown.
Bottom line is, dealt with a ton of injuries and battled to 6 wins.
The team is much better than what the record showed IMO.
Not one item noted above was any more likely to happen than not.
But nice try.
The bigger question right now is the success of the players they invested draft capital in. There are some nice players, and a few hits, but they've had a lot of "at-bats" in the draft, and right now not enough of those guys are difference makers.
If its another year where we are waiting for year 2-3 guys to break out, I think it will be fair to question this team from a scouting & talent evaluation standpoint - (which is weird considering that is Schoen's background).
The trades, free agency, waiver pickups, contract management etc. have all been lightyears better under this regime. They NEED to start hitting on picks.
I am good with most everything in your post, except this idea that critics of the Jones deal are simply taking advantage of hindsight. That just isn't the case.
How many bites at the Apple before we have a competent OL
Finally, the big ? For me is did he consider trading Saquon for draft capital
I'm sure he considered trading Saquon. Mara was quoted as not wanting to trade him. And Barkley was injured week 2, out until week 6 and then injured again week 7. What team is giving anything for Barkley at that point?
1. Daboll hire
2. Okereke signing
3. Toney/LW/Burns trades
4. Thibs/Banks/Hyatt/Nabers draft picks
Failures:
1. DJ contract (worst decision in franchise history)
2. Glowinski/Campbell signings
3. Waller trade
4. Not trading Barkley/McKinney at 2023 trade deadline
5. Neal/Ezeudu/Gray/Muasau draft picks
Still lots of TBD but for every positive there has seemed to be a corresponding negative. Schoen may be more likable and professional than Gettleman, but has thus far been about the same in terms of roster building. And the two best players on the 2024 team are still legacy Gettleman guys. Let's hope we see some glimmers of hope from "Schoen's guys" in what will likely be another very tough season record wise in 2024 due to QB/OL/RB woes.
1. Daboll hire
2. Okereke signing
3. Toney/LW/Burns trades
4. Thibs/Banks/Hyatt/Nabers draft picks
Failures:
1. DJ contract (worst decision in franchise history)
2. Glowinski/Campbell signings
3. Waller trade
4. Not trading Barkley/McKinney at 2023 trade deadline
5. Neal/Ezeudu/Gray/Muasau draft picks
Still lots of TBD but for every positive there has seemed to be a corresponding negative. Schoen may be more likable and professional than Gettleman, but has thus far been about the same in terms of roster building. And the two best players on the 2024 team are still legacy Gettleman guys. Let's hope we see some glimmers of hope from "Schoen's guys" in what will likely be another very tough season record wise in 2024 due to QB/OL/RB woes.
How is Gray a failure? Way to premature to make that statement…let’s see what he does with increased playing time….its amazing how one could write someone off after their rookie year
Ezudu- been hurt 2 years in a row and had to play out of position
Muasau- wasn’t he just drafted this year? How could that be deemed a failure when he hadn’t even played a down yet?
1. Daboll hire
2. Okereke signing
3. Toney/LW/Burns trades
4. Thibs/Banks/Hyatt/Nabers draft picks
Failures:
1. DJ contract (worst decision in franchise history)
2. Glowinski/Campbell signings
3. Waller trade
4. Not trading Barkley/McKinney at 2023 trade deadline
5. Neal/Ezeudu/Gray/Muasau draft picks
Still lots of TBD but for every positive there has seemed to be a corresponding negative. Schoen may be more likable and professional than Gettleman, but has thus far been about the same in terms of roster building. And the two best players on the 2024 team are still legacy Gettleman guys. Let's hope we see some glimmers of hope from "Schoen's guys" in what will likely be another very tough season record wise in 2024 due to QB/OL/RB woes.
Not sure if you are being hyperbolic on purpose, but wow..
Quote:
Successes:
1. Daboll hire
2. Okereke signing
3. Toney/LW/Burns trades
4. Thibs/Banks/Hyatt/Nabers draft picks
Failures:
1. DJ contract (worst decision in franchise history)
2. Glowinski/Campbell signings
3. Waller trade
4. Not trading Barkley/McKinney at 2023 trade deadline
5. Neal/Ezeudu/Gray/Muasau draft picks
Still lots of TBD but for every positive there has seemed to be a corresponding negative. Schoen may be more likable and professional than Gettleman, but has thus far been about the same in terms of roster building. And the two best players on the 2024 team are still legacy Gettleman guys. Let's hope we see some glimmers of hope from "Schoen's guys" in what will likely be another very tough season record wise in 2024 due to QB/OL/RB woes.
How is Gray a failure? Way to premature to make that statement…let’s see what he does with increased playing time….its amazing how one could write someone off after their rookie year
Ezudu- been hurt 2 years in a row and had to play out of position
Muasau- wasn’t he just drafted this year? How could that be deemed a failure when he hadn’t even played a down yet?
These are opinions. Saying "let's wait and see" is not an opinion. It is precisely the definition of not having an opinion. Gray is a step too slow. I said it at the time of the draft, nothing has changed. Can he rise up and become a serviceable JAG in the NFL? Possibly, but I doubt it.
Ezeudu is at best a JAG - not worthy of a day two pick, especially given what they could have had at that spot. Not selecting either Milton or Pratt in the sixth round this year was an absolute must for a slew of reasons that we have hashed over on BBI for months now...
Quote:
In comment 16549736 The Mike said:
Quote:
Successes:
1. Daboll hire
2. Okereke signing
3. Toney/LW/Burns trades
4. Thibs/Banks/Hyatt/Nabers draft picks
Failures:
1. DJ contract (worst decision in franchise history)
2. Glowinski/Campbell signings
3. Waller trade
4. Not trading Barkley/McKinney at 2023 trade deadline
5. Neal/Ezeudu/Gray/Muasau draft picks
Still lots of TBD but for every positive there has seemed to be a corresponding negative. Schoen may be more likable and professional than Gettleman, but has thus far been about the same in terms of roster building. And the two best players on the 2024 team are still legacy Gettleman guys. Let's hope we see some glimmers of hope from "Schoen's guys" in what will likely be another very tough season record wise in 2024 due to QB/OL/RB woes.
How is Gray a failure? Way to premature to make that statement…let’s see what he does with increased playing time….its amazing how one could write someone off after their rookie year
Ezudu- been hurt 2 years in a row and had to play out of position
Muasau- wasn’t he just drafted this year? How could that be deemed a failure when he hadn’t even played a down yet?
These are opinions. Saying "let's wait and see" is not an opinion. It is precisely the definition of not having an opinion. Gray is a step too slow. I said it at the time of the draft, nothing has changed. Can he rise up and become a serviceable JAG in the NFL? Possibly, but I doubt it.
Ezeudu is at best a JAG - not worthy of a day two pick, especially given what they could have had at that spot. Not selecting either Milton or Pratt in the sixth round this year was an absolute must for a slew of reasons that we have hashed over on BBI for months now...
Ah…so someone is labeled a bust because the message board experts wanted to draft somebody else
There are literally no words to this logic
And Ezeudu was drafted exactly where he was projected to go
Speaking of overpay, the D. Jones contract was dumb and Jones' people bent little Joe over the table. No doubt Jones will have a couple of good games, a couple of bad games and a lot of blahtastic games. Dumb. It doesn't need to qualify as the dumbest move ever in order to be stupid.
As I said, Schoen gets kudos for Banks and Hyatt. I am surprised you didn't call me out for having a "too early" positive opinion on them. It seems you only have an aversion to negative early opinions. Objectivity doesn't appear to be your strong suit.
McFadden is ok, neither great nor terrible. Good against the run, slow in pass coverage. The Simmons/McFadden platoon could work well if Bowen gets it right. Robinson is TBD. He could be good if he stays healthy, he also seems to have difficulty breaking free after first contact. Maybe he will take a big leap now with the big upgrade in Nabers/Hyatt/Slayton "take the top off the defense" team speed.
Come on. None of those decisions are as back breaking as the DJ contract and the impact to this team and how it delays a proper rebuild.
But, with how it turned out - Jones was going to be back (you admitted this in the Vikings playoff game post game thread).
You were right, they should have tagged him. So, the decision is the difference between Jones in 2024 or someone like Sam Darnold. It would be cheaper and you could invest more in the team, but they are probably picking in the same spot. They most likely still don't draft McCarthy. They probably still don't draft a 24 year old Penix with an injury history.
I like you as a poster, but I think it's overly hyperbolic to exaggerate how much this contract has set the franchise back. And a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 is becoming more the norm around franchises.
For NYG, it's all about finding a QB. Contract or no contract to Jones, they likely still wouldn't have a QB unless you wanted JJ McCarthy.
Link - ( New Window )
Not making excuses for Schoen, but there are reasons also.
Thanks for reminding me about the Ron Johnson trade. Its been a while. Wish his knees held up.
But, with how it turned out - Jones was going to be back (you admitted this in the Vikings playoff game post game thread).
Quote:
As for the offense, DJ had his best game as a Giant. It reminded me of the Simms performance in Super Bowl XXI in its flawlessness. Is DJ an elite quarterback now? Who cares. In a Daboll/Kafka world, he is valuable. More valuable than I would have ever imagined even six months ago. They can win a Super Bowl with DJ and that is really all that matters. So there should be no doubt that DJ will be back with this team next year. I am still not sure they will come to terms on a multi-year contract, but there is no way they let him out the door. In my mind, his floor yesterday went from the non-exclusive franchise tag to the exclusive franchise tag, which I think is the most likely outcome. Well earned and well deserved.
You were right, they should have tagged him. So, the decision is the difference between Jones in 2024 or someone like Sam Darnold. It would be cheaper and you could invest more in the team, but they are probably picking in the same spot. They most likely still don't draft McCarthy. They probably still don't draft a 24 year old Penix with an injury history.
I like you as a poster, but I think it's overly hyperbolic to exaggerate how much this contract has set the franchise back. And a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 is becoming more the norm around franchises.
For NYG, it's all about finding a QB. Contract or no contract to Jones, they likely still wouldn't have a QB unless you wanted JJ McCarthy. Link - ( New Window )
Sean - I emphatically stand by what I said then. Schoen had one choice, albeit not a good choice, and that was to franchise tag him. And I stand by what I say now - nothing is as debilitating to this franchise, and ARGUABLY nothing ever has been, as that contract. As Christian has cogently argued on BBI, the way the contract is written, we are all but stuck with DJ for two more years after 2024. So the DJ strangulation on the rebuild has only just begun.
And BTW, if you are going to go back and pick off old comments, please add my comments after the Eagles game a week later where I apologized to this board for the delusional nonsense of this post and I was back to where I wouldn't give a set of steak knives for him.
I don't doubt this was the original plan:
-Have a poor season in 2022.
-Draft a QB in 2023 with Tyrod Taylor as a bridge.
Things went backwards and there is a human element here. A first time GM with no track record and an ownership group who was no doubt eager to keep building with both the QB and RB.
People can say all they want, but not addressing that fact and how it presented a much tougher situation for Schoen is not being honest. Especially if people start praising Adam Peters. Schoen didn't have that benefit.
Not making excuses for Schoen, but there are reasons also.
Every team has some bad luck. The good teams, however, create their own good luck. And that can be derivative of moving on quickly from poor decisions.
I don't doubt this was the original plan:
-Have a poor season in 2022.
-Draft a QB in 2023 with Tyrod Taylor as a bridge.
Things went backwards and there is a human element here. A first time GM with no track record and an ownership group who was no doubt eager to keep building with both the QB and RB.
People can say all they want, but not addressing that fact and how it presented a much tougher situation for Schoen is not being honest. Especially if people start praising Adam Peters. Schoen didn't have that benefit.
Yes, you are probably right about the original plan. And he should have stuck with that plan! As I said, I think the jury is still out overall on Schoen. Some good, some bad. Yes he has had some bad luck, and nobody would criticize him for Evan Neal as an example.
But you could not screw up the situation with DJ more if you had tried. Declining the fifth year option and then overreacting to a meaningless playoff game? Marcus Mariota won a playoff game in spectacular fashion but the Titans were not foolish enough to give him a massive second contract. Was Mara meddling? Does it matter? Schoen has an obligation to do the right thing, even protecting Mara from himself when he is misguided. So Schoen either fully agreed with the contract or inneffectually caved under pressure rather than pushing hard for the tag.
Giants are not tied to DJ for two more seasons. So many other things can change if they have a season like last year or worse.
Quote:
Just need to give him enough time and space to build the team. Can't be done in a single offseason, not every move is going to work perfectly, or even work. Take the long view.
This is his 3rd offseason
It's going to take more than 3...
Quote:
I'm not looking to cherry pick, as I've said I like you as a poster. I think it's okay to admit it's been a shitty situation for Schoen too.
I don't doubt this was the original plan:
-Have a poor season in 2022.
-Draft a QB in 2023 with Tyrod Taylor as a bridge.
Things went backwards and there is a human element here. A first time GM with no track record and an ownership group who was no doubt eager to keep building with both the QB and RB.
People can say all they want, but not addressing that fact and how it presented a much tougher situation for Schoen is not being honest. Especially if people start praising Adam Peters. Schoen didn't have that benefit.
Yes, you are probably right about the original plan. And he should have stuck with that plan! As I said, I think the jury is still out overall on Schoen. Some good, some bad. Yes he has had some bad luck, and nobody would criticize him for Evan Neal as an example.
But you could not screw up the situation with DJ more if you had tried. Declining the fifth year option and then overreacting to a meaningless playoff game? Marcus Mariota won a playoff game in spectacular fashion but the Titans were not foolish enough to give him a massive second contract. Was Mara meddling? Does it matter? Schoen has an obligation to do the right thing, even protecting Mara from himself when he is misguided. So Schoen either fully agreed with the contract or inneffectually caved under pressure rather than pushing hard for the tag.
There were enormous, unworkable cap ramifications to the tag. Here's the math:
They entered 2023 season with about $40MM in cap space accounting for the draft pool.
That money had to cover the following players: Barkley, Jones, Nacho, Okereke, Slayton and Campbell (yeah he turned out a big zero but only in hindsight).
The cheapest QB tag was $30 million.
Barkley had already turned down $12MM a year. As we know his tag was $10MM.
Tagging Jones would have kept the Giants out of the 2023 anything but minimum free agent market completely except for replacing Barkley with a cheaper alternative, plus maybe adding one cheap vet.
Again, once Schoen declined Jones option (as EVERYONE wanted), the economic die was cast. He plays out 2022 - then you ditch him or pay him. And, again, there is no universe where a player in line for a tag signs a long term deal for less.
And BTW, Jones option wasn't peanuts - it was $8 million less than the tag.
If he didn't want it, just get one of the other 10+ QBs at that level who change teams every offseason.
Having two top ten picks in a shitty QB draft when he clearly would have gladly taken one.
Quote:
And let’s not classify missed games from several oft-injured offensive players as bad luck.
Having two top ten picks in a shitty QB draft when he clearly would have gladly taken one.
Yeah I can’t get there as that being straight bad luck. It’s not like he didnt/couldnt see the QBs that would be available, nor did it prevent him from dealing his picks to set up for a future year.
And it certainly shouldn’t have forced his hand on a bad Jones multi-year deal. Although it sadly did.
If he did that then this off season maybe goes a lot different.
If he didn't want it, just get one of the other 10+ QBs at that level who change teams every offseason.
Fine solution except that Schoen and Daboll don't agree with your assessment of Jones.
Quote:
1 year / $10 million. He is a backup/journeyman QB. That is the rate.
If he didn't want it, just get one of the other 10+ QBs at that level who change teams every offseason.
Fine solution except that Schoen and Daboll don't agree with your assessment of Jones.
He was clearly talking about his opinion. Not Schoen and Daboll. You are obviously one of the clowns that think coaches and GMs never make piss poor decisions so if they love Jones, he must be awesome, right?
This idea that some of you subscribe To that we can’t question a GMs decisions at times is asinine
If he did that then this off season maybe goes a lot different.
That's pretty spot on. Another very easy way to make it work would have been moving more of Adoree Jackson's money out to 2024 (creating more dead money) + signing Barkley + not signing Campbell.
If Jones is tagged Barkley was either gone, or extended, so that's easy to assume. The terms that were nearly agree upon, were widely reported as 3/39M.
As far as creating dead money, giving Jones 32M instead of the 84.7M he was slated to earn (it ends up being a little less because he didn't hit his performance bonus) actually ends up being cap positive.
The top table is how they entered the season, the bottom table is what they could have done.
If he did that then this off season maybe goes a lot different.
Right. Jones initial 2023 hit was originally $16MM. $17MM under NEFT; $8 million more than his year 5 option.
It all boils down the the same thing. After proving it off a prove-it year it was tag or let walk, with the tag requiring unnatural cap acts. You say get creative - but that means pushing cap hits out and still no Okereke. Then either:
a) 2023 happens, Jones is now gone, we have JJ McCarthy, no Okereke (but can sign someone else this season), and no Nabers.
b) 2023 likely alternate reality is Jones playing a bit better than 2022 in system year 2 plus having a bit of Waller (I'm assuming part of the creative magic was fitting him under the cap) plus WDR and Hyatt give him better weapons. Presumably that's worth 3 wins at least which means a playoff berth.
Come March, Jones is an impending free agent (but SB remains a Giant). Also the Giants have less cap space due to dead money (and a $12 million running back). Next move is? And very tough to see how Burns fits -- and we don't have the extra 2 to give up.
Quote:
In comment 16549876 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
1 year / $10 million. He is a backup/journeyman QB. That is the rate.
If he didn't want it, just get one of the other 10+ QBs at that level who change teams every offseason.
Fine solution except that Schoen and Daboll don't agree with your assessment of Jones.
He was clearly talking about his opinion. Not Schoen and Daboll. You are obviously one of the clowns that think coaches and GMs never make piss poor decisions so if they love Jones, he must be awesome, right?
This idea that some of you subscribe To that we can’t question a GMs decisions at times is asinine
I didn't say that at all.
I'm not saying he (and me, you and everyone) can't (and shouldn't) disagree with Schoen/Daboll or any GM. I do not believe that.
The point is Schoen/Daboll wanted to keep Daniel Jones - so it was incumbent on Schoen to make that decision work (whether or not you agree with it).
Quote:
And let’s not classify missed games from several oft-injured offensive players as bad luck.
Having two top ten picks in a shitty QB draft when he clearly would have gladly taken one.
Based on Schoen passing on three QBs in this draft (all prospects who are more talented than Jones), I'm not sure you can say Schoen would "clearly" have chosen a QB in the 2022 draft.
Signing Barkley and tagging Jones was an incredibly easy thing to do, regarding the cap.
Quote:
NEFT carried about 17m more than the deal Jones received. With a little creativity, I think JS should be able make that work. Could have extending another player, held off on one of the signings and maybe given SB the 3 year deal that they looked at. Or a different path.
If he did that then this off season maybe goes a lot different.
That's pretty spot on. Another very easy way to make it work would have been moving more of Adoree Jackson's money out to 2024 (creating more dead money) + signing Barkley + not signing Campbell.
If Jones is tagged Barkley was either gone, or extended, so that's easy to assume. The terms that were nearly agree upon, were widely reported as 3/39M.
As far as creating dead money, giving Jones 32M instead of the 84.7M he was slated to earn (it ends up being a little less because he didn't hit his performance bonus) actually ends up being cap positive.
The top table is how they entered the season, the bottom table is what they could have done.
Of course it's cap positive. But it would be a lesser team when 2023 ended. More holes to fill including the QB hole (which -- you know -- could be UFA Jones on a prove it deal) and the one no Okereke left.
Realistically you're adding two years to the timeline. Which is worth it if you didn't want Jones. Although I'm confident that BBI would be most impatient in those two years.
But not if you wanted Jones after 22. Which goes back to who made the decision.
Signing Barkley and tagging Jones was an incredibly easy thing to do, regarding the cap.
Yes it's incredibly easy to create cap space when you need to. Like say when you're contending for the Super Bowl. It's pushing $50 million out in the years you're not that stops you from getting in that position.
Signing Barkley and tagging Jones was an incredibly easy thing to do, regarding the cap.
Bingo! This was the move. Jones & Barkley were coming back.
Quote:
The Giants could have signed every player they did last year, including Okereke, except Campbell.
Signing Barkley and tagging Jones was an incredibly easy thing to do, regarding the cap.
Yes it's incredibly easy to create cap space when you need to. Like say when you're contending for the Super Bowl. It's pushing $50 million out in the years you're not that stops you from getting in that position.
$50M in the years that you're not contending for the Super Bowl?
Like DJ's cap hit this year?
That's also an incredibly dramatic and wildly inaccurate representation of what would have been necessary to replicate last offseason's activity with DJ tagged and Barkley signed rather than vice versa.
If the Giants had chosen the second scenario in that table here would be the net roster differences:
2023: They don't have Parris Campbell
2024: Daniel Jones is an UFA, they have Saquon Barkley under team control for 2 more years
Everything else would have been literally the same roster wise.
Cap wise the Giants would have had more cap dollars in every year, for a total net cap savings of 23.5M.
They would have only pushed a +8.7M of Jackson's 2023 cap hit to 2024.
Big answers
But @ what point is fair to surmise that Jones IS Schoen's QB?
But @ what point is fair to surmise that Jones IS Schoen's QB?
That point happened when he gave the guy 82M.
Big answers
You're probably right about that.
This is grossly over-simplifying matters, but if Joes Schoen ends up batting below .500 with Evan Neal, John Michael Schmitz, Joshua Ezeudu, Marcus McKethan, Jon Runyan, Jr. and Jermaine Eluemunor, then I just don't know how much more runway the guy will have.
Quote:
We've arrived at complete agreement. Like you've said, Schoen needs to acquire a QB. In order for him to get the opportunity to do it, the team will need to show progress in the meantime. He has ultimately created this situation on himself.
But @ what point is fair to surmise that Jones IS Schoen's QB?
I'm not quite there. I think Schoen values QB over RB which is why Jones get a 2.5 tier contract (between 2nd and 3rd QB tier). The success in 2022 clouded everything. I think Schoen views Jones as a placeholder.
Quote:
In comment 16549926 christian said:
Quote:
The Giants could have signed every player they did last year, including Okereke, except Campbell.
Signing Barkley and tagging Jones was an incredibly easy thing to do, regarding the cap.
Yes it's incredibly easy to create cap space when you need to. Like say when you're contending for the Super Bowl. It's pushing $50 million out in the years you're not that stops you from getting in that position.
$50M in the years that you're not contending for the Super Bowl?
Like DJ's cap hit this year?
That's also an incredibly dramatic and wildly inaccurate representation of what would have been necessary to replicate last offseason's activity with DJ tagged and Barkley signed rather than vice versa.
No it's not. Feel free to disagree with something to back it up.
And yeah, like this year -- plus 2 more on top of already one more.
You can make any argument you want but it comes down to the same thing: if you wanted to keep Jones after declining his option and '22, this was the most prudent way. 2 year commitment instead of one, in exchange for a better team (outside QB which we don't know) and clean books on the other side.
Otherwise is essentially arguing they should ditched Jones after 22. Which is a fine (although not very defensible) position. That's OK. But don't layer on unwarranted criticism on the execution of the decision. Two different things
No more excuses. None. And I think & hope Joe recognizes that.
$50M in the years that you're not contending for the Super Bowl?
Like DJ's cap hit this year?
That's also an incredibly dramatic and wildly inaccurate representation of what would have been necessary to replicate last offseason's activity with DJ tagged and Barkley signed rather than vice versa.
No it's not. Feel free to disagree with something to back it up.
And yeah, like this year -- plus 2 more on top of already one more.
You can make any argument you want but it comes down to the same thing: if you wanted to keep Jones after declining his option and '22, this was the most prudent way. 2 year commitment instead of one, in exchange for a better team (outside QB which we don't know) and clean books on the other side.
Otherwise is essentially arguing they should ditched Jones after 22. Which is a fine (although not very defensible) position. That's OK. But don't layer on unwarranted criticism on the execution of the decision. Two different things
Well for starters the Giants only needed an incremental 17M on the 2023 cap, so 50M is a 3X exaggeration on its face.
I don't know how you define clean books, but if Jones was tagged he would have a $0 cap charge in 2024 or 2025. As it stands today, Jones will have a minimum cap charge of 22M on 2025.
So just to restate the facts I posted above, if the Giants would have tagged Jones in 2023 and signed Barkley, the incremental difference would be:
2023: No Parris Campbell and him losing his job half way through the year
2024: Jones is an UFA, but the Giants have Barkley under contract
And over the 2023-2025 period that Giants have +23.5M in cap space.
Also Giant fans: Why didn’t he win in year 2? He sux.
I think it was optimistic to think the Giants would find a credible replacement for Eli right away.
However, I never thought they would act this obtuse, year after year, that they haven’t yet and still can’t come to the realization that they need to actually try.
Big answers
Absolutely.
His drafts from year 1 to this past April, they're the most crucial aspect of this team succeeding in 2024. Evan Neal becoming semi average would carry this offense in a big, big way. Kayvon stepping up under the tutelage of Brian Burns and Andre Patterson. Be more consistent with his run contain and winning more one on one matchups when they present themselves.
But the mid round is where it needs to standout. Bellinger, Flott, Belton, and Ezeudu need to earn reps and make their
presence known. I feel like this year's
draft is key, also, notably Nabers and to
a degree, Nubin. These two can add another dynamic to their respective side.
Quote:
Yes it's incredibly easy to create cap space when you need to. Like say when you're contending for the Super Bowl. It's pushing $50 million out in the years you're not that stops you from getting in that position.
$50M in the years that you're not contending for the Super Bowl?
Like DJ's cap hit this year?
That's also an incredibly dramatic and wildly inaccurate representation of what would have been necessary to replicate last offseason's activity with DJ tagged and Barkley signed rather than vice versa.
No it's not. Feel free to disagree with something to back it up.
And yeah, like this year -- plus 2 more on top of already one more.
You can make any argument you want but it comes down to the same thing: if you wanted to keep Jones after declining his option and '22, this was the most prudent way. 2 year commitment instead of one, in exchange for a better team (outside QB which we don't know) and clean books on the other side.
Otherwise is essentially arguing they should ditched Jones after 22. Which is a fine (although not very defensible) position. That's OK. But don't layer on unwarranted criticism on the execution of the decision. Two different things
Well for starters the Giants only needed an incremental 17M on the 2023 cap, so 50M is a 3X exaggeration on its face.
I don't know how you define clean books, but if Jones was tagged he would have a $0 cap charge in 2024 or 2025. As it stands today, Jones will have a minimum cap charge of 22M on 2025.
So just to restate the facts I posted above, if the Giants would have tagged Jones in 2023 and signed Barkley, the incremental difference would be:
2023: No Parris Campbell and him losing his job half way through the year
2024: Jones is an UFA, but the Giants have Barkley under contract
And over the 2023-2025 period that Giants have +23.5M in cap space.
I used your numbers. And I define clean books as after this season. Because that's the point, right? New QB, clean cap, last chance at glory.
Quote:
They probably viewed 2022 as year 1 in the Daboll/Kafka system for Jones.
I think it was optimistic to think the Giants would find a credible replacement for Eli right away.
However, I never thought they would act this obtuse, year after year, that they haven’t yet and still can’t come to the realization that they need to actually try.
What would you have liked them to do? I recall you pushing back on the McCarthy hysteria. Trade up for Maye? I assume they tried, it's not like the Pats moved off the pick.
Penix at 6? Nix at 6?
Quote:
In comment 16549988 Sean said:
Quote:
They probably viewed 2022 as year 1 in the Daboll/Kafka system for Jones.
I think it was optimistic to think the Giants would find a credible replacement for Eli right away.
However, I never thought they would act this obtuse, year after year, that they haven’t yet and still can’t come to the realization that they need to actually try.
What would you have liked them to do? I recall you pushing back on the McCarthy hysteria. Trade up for Maye? I assume they tried, it's not like the Pats moved off the pick.
Penix at 6? Nix at 6?
I would have liked them to pursue QBs in any draft since 2019.
McCarthy was a clear overpay at #6 in my view. But in 5 drafts since 2019 I think I would have been able to come to the realization that some QBs were worth pursuing.
No not particularly. Willis was never a QB imv. He was a runner who had the option to throw if he saw it. Except of course as he progressed from high school to college to pros he saw it less and less as the competition improved more and more.
But it’s not about who succeeded and who didn’t. It’s about never taking a swing.
One previous prospect that actually fell and could have been acquired late in the draft is Sam Howell. His performance in DC was not the greatest this last year, but he also had a terrible OL and an idiot of an OC. He's someone I would have loved for them to snag late, be a backup at the very least and a cheap one at that.
For some reason bad OL still kick around. And I'm sure some team will try Neal at Guard.
One previous prospect that actually fell and could have been acquired late in the draft is Sam Howell. His performance in DC was not the greatest this last year, but he also had a terrible OL and an idiot of an OC. He's someone I would have loved for them to snag late, be a backup at the very least and a cheap one at that.
Unless they are secretly clairvoyant about their future draft position and available QBs, not drafting anyone at the position while still giving DJ $160m isn’t gaining my confidence. But hey, Nabers looks good throwing his dollar bills around at the local strip joints.
Kenny Pickett
2023:
none
2024:
Michael Penix
JJ McCarthy
Bo Nix
I'd have taken McCarthy at six. At minimum, I would have drafted a 2nd/3rd developmental QB at some point. Purdy looks like a big missed opportunity and I would have taken Hooker at some point in 2023.
Kenny Pickett
2023:
none
2024:
Michael Penix
JJ McCarthy
Bo Nix
I'd have taken McCarthy at six. At minimum, I would have drafted a 2nd/3rd developmental QB at some point. Purdy looks like a big missed opportunity and I would have taken Hooker at some point in 2023.
Not everything should be looked at as static with given draft position.. Schoen could have navigated picks, drafts, trades and even free agency to pursue QBs but did not. And that says nothing to the fact at how nothing was done before he even arrived going back to to 2019.
And as mentioned earlier, this isn’t just about which QB succeeded or not. They have a problem with simply swinging. Do you think that mindset just changes next offseason, or the next, or the next? When do the stars align on prospect, draft position and mindset...ever?
That is a catastrophically bad performance - bad enough to overshadow good things done elsewhere.
That is a catastrophically bad performance - bad enough to overshadow good things done elsewhere.
in your humble opinion...
How low is the bar now? Most would view 8-9 or even 7-10 as a successful season.
When Schoen was hired, is this what we expected heading into 2024?
Quote:
Schoen stepped into a QB room consisting of just Daniel Jones entering his 4th season on a rookie contract. Three years later he is entering the season with the third most expensive QB room in the league, and that room is made up of Jones, Lock, and DeVito.
That is a catastrophically bad performance - bad enough to overshadow good things done elsewhere.
in your humble opinion...
That is a catastrophically bad performance - bad enough to overshadow good things done elsewhere.
There's no denying the mistake made with Jones
Or that his contract is horrible
But "third most expensive QB room in the league" while I assume is accurate, is certainly misleading
Lock is getting 5m/ 1 year
DeVito?
Link - ( New Window )
That on its own doesn't directly reflect his cost, but you don't enter that list unless your total contract is large.
The total cap allocation by a position is a signal on what the team wants to lead by, and I think it's clear they want their QB to be the lead dog.
That on its own doesn't directly reflect his cost, but you don't enter that list unless your total contract is large.
The total cap allocation by a position is a signal on what the team wants to lead by, and I think it's clear they want their QB to be the lead dog.
It was also the negotiated cost of having an out after 2 years. An expensive one, but sadly necessary
The main point is that after three years the Giants are a lot more expensive at QB, but they aren't any better. It's a huge fail.
And yes, both sides will work out specific benefits in a deal that protect their respective interests. But the Giants gave Jones 82M in guarantees because they believe and expect him to be a very good quarterback. Not primarily because they want to get rid of him.
And yes, both sides will work out specific benefits in a deal that protect their respective interests. But the Giants gave Jones 82M in guarantees because they believe and expect him to be a very good quarterback. Not primarily because they want to get rid of him.
Right. I think they view him as a placeholder that will be difficult to unseat.
Quote:
In comment 16549931 HBart said:
Quote:
In comment 16549926 christian said:
Quote:
The Giants could have signed every player they did last year, including Okereke, except Campbell.
Signing Barkley and tagging Jones was an incredibly easy thing to do, regarding the cap.
Yes it's incredibly easy to create cap space when you need to. Like say when you're contending for the Super Bowl. It's pushing $50 million out in the years you're not that stops you from getting in that position.
$50M in the years that you're not contending for the Super Bowl?
Like DJ's cap hit this year?
That's also an incredibly dramatic and wildly inaccurate representation of what would have been necessary to replicate last offseason's activity with DJ tagged and Barkley signed rather than vice versa.
No it's not. Feel free to disagree with something to back it up.
And yeah, like this year -- plus 2 more on top of already one more.
You can make any argument you want but it comes down to the same thing: if you wanted to keep Jones after declining his option and '22, this was the most prudent way. 2 year commitment instead of one, in exchange for a better team (outside QB which we don't know) and clean books on the other side.
Otherwise is essentially arguing they should ditched Jones after 22. Which is a fine (although not very defensible) position. That's OK. But don't layer on unwarranted criticism on the execution of the decision. Two different things
It's not my job to teach you - for free - how the salary cap works. But you're wrong. Christian has it laid out accurately. Your alternate scenario is incorrect and serves only as a crutch for you to justify some choices that were less than optimal simply because Schoen ran out of time before free agency opened last year and chose to budge at the QB position rather than the RB position.
How low is the bar now? Most would view 8-9 or even 7-10 as a successful season.
When Schoen was hired, is this what we expected heading into 2024?
Is it really bottom tier? How can you say that when the season hasn't started? We do not know which players developed over the offseason or which ones improve during camp.
Can we wait to see how Bricillo shapes up the Oline and how Bowen improves the function of the defense. There are a number of very good players on defense. And the offense appears to be stronger. Yeah I agree on QB being quite questionable.
I tend to agree it isn't one of the better rosters, but they have some pretty good football players all over the roster.
Quote:
Make no mistake, a quarterback with a 48M cap hit on any year is making a lot of money. There's no practical reason to divvy up a cheap contract into a huge cap hit like that.
And yes, both sides will work out specific benefits in a deal that protect their respective interests. But the Giants gave Jones 82M in guarantees because they believe and expect him to be a very good quarterback. Not primarily because they want to get rid of him.
Right. I think they view him as a placeholder that will be difficult to unseat.
Well, the only reason it's difficult to unseat Jones is because the team won't draft anyone to do so. If the team had drafted McCarthy or Penix (possibly even Nix), the future looks much brighter and I think Jones is on the bench by week 6.
Quote:
In comment 16550317 christian said:
Quote:
Make no mistake, a quarterback with a 48M cap hit on any year is making a lot of money. There's no practical reason to divvy up a cheap contract into a huge cap hit like that.
And yes, both sides will work out specific benefits in a deal that protect their respective interests. But the Giants gave Jones 82M in guarantees because they believe and expect him to be a very good quarterback. Not primarily because they want to get rid of him.
Right. I think they view him as a placeholder that will be difficult to unseat.
Well, the only reason it's difficult to unseat Jones is because the team won't draft anyone to do so. If the team had drafted McCarthy or Penix (possibly even Nix), the future looks much brighter and I think Jones is on the bench by week 6.
That’s assuming those 3 QB’s pan out which neither you or I know that they will
Quote:
In comment 16550334 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 16550317 christian said:
Quote:
Make no mistake, a quarterback with a 48M cap hit on any year is making a lot of money. There's no practical reason to divvy up a cheap contract into a huge cap hit like that.
And yes, both sides will work out specific benefits in a deal that protect their respective interests. But the Giants gave Jones 82M in guarantees because they believe and expect him to be a very good quarterback. Not primarily because they want to get rid of him.
Right. I think they view him as a placeholder that will be difficult to unseat.
Well, the only reason it's difficult to unseat Jones is because the team won't draft anyone to do so. If the team had drafted McCarthy or Penix (possibly even Nix), the future looks much brighter and I think Jones is on the bench by week 6.
That’s assuming those 3 QB’s pan out which neither you or I know that they will
We do have years of evidence now that the incumbent hasn't panned out, yet we're paying rack rate for that, so why does that assumption about the rookie QBs even matter? That's literally the case for every player drafted at every position. We don't know if they'll pan out. It's ALWAYS an assumption.
The only downside to taking one of those QBs isn't the risk that they might not pan out - it's simply the opportunity cost of not drafting Nabers. That's the entire risk, IMO.
And we don't know if Nabers will pan out either (although I think most of us are very confident that he will).
The whole gotcha with Willis would be a lot more damning if the Giants hadn't have picked a tackle who totally sucks on round one, and then gave a major commitment to a quarterback who mostly sucks the next offseason.
That's a good observation.
I think his argument would be Barkley was 26 on the FT and signing him long term at the end of 2023 was highly unlikely. Remember, he seemed to indicate that 27 was the inflection point for RBs.
Because he had a very, very good 2022? $10.1 mill isn't a lot of money for what Barkley did in 2022.
The whole gotcha with Willis would be a lot more damning if the Giants hadn't have picked a tackle who totally sucks on round one, and then gave a major commitment to a quarterback who mostly sucks the next offseason.
Considering a large portion of the base thinks it's perfectly reasonable to give Jones six years to prove himself. Why wouldn't that view apply to Willis as well?
Quote:
Why did he franchise Barkley after 2022 knowing what he believes in the RB position?
Because he had a very, very good 2022? $10.1 mill isn't a lot of money for what Barkley did in 2022.
I may be mistaken but I think they paid him $10.1M for 2023, not 2022.
But thank you for illustrating one of the things that might be a flaw of Schoen's: assigning next year's value based entirely on last year's performance.
Quote:
The whole gotcha with Willis would be a lot more damning if the Giants hadn't have picked a tackle who totally sucks on round one, and then gave a major commitment to a quarterback who mostly sucks the next offseason.
Considering a large portion of the base thinks it's perfectly reasonable to give Jones six years to prove himself. Why wouldn't that view apply to Willis as well?
I think it’s much more likely that a large portion of the fan base wants Jones replaced.
As for Willis, picking him in place of Neal would have been a horrible waste of resources.
Quote:
In comment 16550377 christian said:
Quote:
The whole gotcha with Willis would be a lot more damning if the Giants hadn't have picked a tackle who totally sucks on round one, and then gave a major commitment to a quarterback who mostly sucks the next offseason.
Considering a large portion of the base thinks it's perfectly reasonable to give Jones six years to prove himself. Why wouldn't that view apply to Willis as well?
I think it’s much more likely that a large portion of the fan base wants Jones replaced.
As for Willis, picking him in place of Neal would have been a horrible waste of resources.
In retrospect if it kept us from paying Jones it would have been a blessing. Neal looks like a missed pick anyway.
I think it’s much more likely that a large portion of the fan base wants Jones replaced.
As for Willis, picking him in place of Neal would have been a horrible waste of resources.
Forget Neal, who has been a catastrophe, I would rather have Willis over Ezeudu or Robinson.
Quote:
In comment 16550408 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16550377 christian said:
Quote:
The whole gotcha with Willis would be a lot more damning if the Giants hadn't have picked a tackle who totally sucks on round one, and then gave a major commitment to a quarterback who mostly sucks the next offseason.
Considering a large portion of the base thinks it's perfectly reasonable to give Jones six years to prove himself. Why wouldn't that view apply to Willis as well?
I think it’s much more likely that a large portion of the fan base wants Jones replaced.
As for Willis, picking him in place of Neal would have been a horrible waste of resources.
In retrospect if it kept us from paying Jones it would have been a blessing. Neal looks like a missed pick anyway.
In hindsight, I definitely am not a fan of the Jones contract. A partial blessing :)
I know this going to cause BP to rise, but Neal is still 'wait and see' for me. His time is certainly running out, he can still be salvaged. Although, the odds are probably not great.
Quote:
I think it’s much more likely that a large portion of the fan base wants Jones replaced.
As for Willis, picking him in place of Neal would have been a horrible waste of resources.
Forget Neal, who has been a catastrophe, I would rather have Willis over Ezeudu or Robinson.
Neal is still in-play to turn out to be a good investment to me. Ezeudu, yes. Wandale Robinson? I would rather have Robinson than Willis. Of course I am using the benefit of hindsight. At the time of the draft Willis was a known name even for fans like myself. Robinson on the other hand was a player that I knew nothing about when he was selected.