I can't wait for the episode where they praise Naber's personality and dawg mentality. I'm also curious to see if the skipping the combine thing even registers on management's radar. That sure caused some itchiness among the fans.
RE: does anyone know off hand how many episodes there is going to be
watching the first episode, that some of those meetings and conversations among the GM and the coaching staff ... if a group of the most football-savvy fans here couldn't have had similar and perhaps equally productive conversations.
No, I'm not saying that's realistic or that I/we could run the Giants. But there are things I KNOW I couldn't do (be an actor or a frontman in a band, just a couple of many), but with a team of people around me?
Admit it, if you at any point thought to yourself watching episode one, "these aren't particularly riveting revelations any of these guys are having."
It all seemed somewhat "basic," which also made me wonder (because my thoughts went the direction they did), is this a good front office team we have here? I really don't know. I wasn't incredibly impressed, honestly. Did not get the impression there were any "rockstars" in the room, like you'd have with a Parcells of, slightly different bent, a true leader in Coughlin.
I hope things come together for this group. That's a lot more fun than the other way.
...hard core NFL fans. Cowboys and Falcons. They were both like, "Inside look at the Giants front office and scouting? Oh how thrilling." LOL, I guess this is only attractive to giants superfans and anyone really obsessed with NFL front office operations and offseason stuff. I'm excited...
Makes me a little nostalgic for that nutcase we had, who was that now, Matt in Syracuse? The guy who was absolutely fruit loops over front office machinations and maneuvers, and sleeper stars? That would be entertaining right now. In an oh god make it stop kind of way.
RE: I wonder if anyone else here had a fleeting thought,
watching the first episode, that some of those meetings and conversations among the GM and the coaching staff ... if a group of the most football-savvy fans here couldn't have had similar and perhaps equally productive conversations.
No, I'm not saying that's realistic or that I/we could run the Giants. But there are things I KNOW I couldn't do (be an actor or a frontman in a band, just a couple of many), but with a team of people around me?
Admit it, if you at any point thought to yourself watching episode one, "these aren't particularly riveting revelations any of these guys are having."
It all seemed somewhat "basic," which also made me wonder (because my thoughts went the direction they did), is this a good front office team we have here? I really don't know. I wasn't incredibly impressed, honestly. Did not get the impression there were any "rockstars" in the room, like you'd have with a Parcells of, slightly different bent, a true leader in Coughlin.
I hope things come together for this group. That's a lot more fun than the other way.
I think there are a few BBIers that could be in that room and come off intelligently. I also do not think it is a easy as it looks. It looks very mundane to the average viewer.
Barkley conversation toward the end on the phone with Schoen is really fascinating. Barkley's tone seemed odd, or distant, or maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
Barkley conversation toward the end on the phone with Schoen is really fascinating. Barkley's tone seemed odd, or distant, or maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
He was definitely butt hurt at what the offers had been. Good for Schoen. Don’t pay for a 27 year old RB when your team is full of holes.
Barkley conversation toward the end on the phone with Schoen is really fascinating. Barkley's tone seemed odd, or distant, or maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
Barkley conversation toward the end on the phone with Schoen is really fascinating. Barkley's tone seemed odd, or distant, or maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
Yeah plus the convo with the Giants Media Director, where Schoen mentioned how he turned down a Bunch of money the year prior it seems like there was a rift between the two and the decision was certainly made that Barkley wanted out from the Giants. Who knows what happened, but Schoen certaibly comes off as the loudest voice against signing him and paying a RB a lot of money. I don’t think anyone other than ownership really wanted him here no matter the cost (Did you see the clip of Mara saying he would lose sleep at night if they don’t re-sign him?). Anyways, glad he is no longer on the team.
I really want Daboll to succeed here. I hope he gets a chance to work with a QB in the near future whom he and management select and can groom together. He certainly is the right guy for the job, just hope doesn’t get thrown out before then by another year or two of shit performance from the poor unit we have currently.
For a football nerd the interviews with Daniel's, Maye, and William's were like crack....
I could listen to these dudes talking x's and O's all day..
I thought Dabolls interviewing tactics were especially fascinating...having the QB change the play, change the conversation, then immediately ask them to recite the play from earlier in the conversation.
Other points I picked up
1) Giants view Corner has a huge need
2) Trade up to pick 3 was real with NE
2) Giants were interested in Christian Wilkins
3) Giants had some interest in retaining Mckinney
4) Giants are concerned Jones may not be ready until week 3/4
5) Giants felt unsure about Maliks personality. Jones approved Maliks talent.
Barkley conversation toward the end on the phone with Schoen is really fascinating. Barkley's tone seemed odd, or distant, or maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
He was definitely butt hurt at what the offers had been. Good for Schoen. Don’t pay for a 27 year old RB when your team is full of holes.
But DO pay $160 million for a mediocre QB when your team's full of holes
Other points I picked up
1) Giants view Corner has a huge need
2) Trade up to pick 3 was real with NE
2) Giants were interested in Christian Wilkins
3) Giants had some interest in retaining Mckinney
4) Giants are concerned Jones may not be ready until week 3/4
5) Giants felt unsure about Maliks personality. Jones approved Maliks talent.
Yup, based on the first two episodes, expect CB to be high on next year's wish list. I expect DT to be too. (QB is a completely different discussion).
some may have found it boring, but I was fascinated by the pre-brief by the PR team. It's exactly how we did it in government.
100%, and I agree completely with your comment on this was a great episode showing the personality and intellect of Brain Daboll. How can you not root for the guy, I truly hope he gets to groom the next Giants QB and doesn’t have the same fate as the 3 failures that came before him. He’s the guy you want here when they need to coach up a new franchise QB.
Surprised they were so into Wilkins. Excellent player but surprised he was such an option.
Surprised by lack of interest in trading for snead. He hasn’t come up once and he is arguably the best cb in the league. Understand Bowen said pass rush is most important and that’s where they focused but still surprised Snead hasn’t come up once.
These guys using stop watches and not having standard agreed upon times is absurd lol. This is a multi billion $ league and this is what they are using?
Would have loved to hear more in depth scouting reports.
caused a lot of resentment. Schoen said "it took 10 years off my life." Saqoun on the phone was super standoffish with Schoen. Saqoun agent was very accommodation of Joe Schoen's call.
Whether its confirmation bias or fact, it's JS sure did convinced himself it's a 27 year old running back and the data is bad when they hit this age. Through the first two episodes other Giants brass seemed a little warming to bring saqoun back.
Lastly, watching this also makes me think maybe Saqoun himself wanted to sign with the eagles as a final slap in the face.
caused a lot of resentment. Schoen said "it took 10 years off my life." Saqoun on the phone was super standoffish with Schoen. Saqoun agent was very accommodation of Joe Schoen's call.
Whether its confirmation bias or fact, it's JS sure did convinced himself it's a 27 year old running back and the data is bad when they hit this age. Through the first two episodes other Giants brass seemed a little warming to bring saqoun back.
Lastly, watching this also makes me think maybe Saqoun himself wanted to sign with the eagles as a final slap in the face.
When Schoen hung up, he knew Saquon was gone. And there clearly was some bad vibes.
some may have found it boring, but I was fascinated by the pre-brief by the PR team. It's exactly how we did it in government.
100%, and I agree completely with your comment on this was a great episode showing the personality and intellect of Brain Daboll. How can you not root for the guy, I truly hope he gets to groom the next Giants QB and doesn’t have the same fate as the 3 failures that came before him. He’s the guy you want here when they need to coach up a new franchise QB.
Brian Daboll also chose to groom Daniel Jones. That's not a bad thing btw...shows there's more to Jones than many may give him credit for. Hope he stays healthy and gets better under this coach..would be one hell of a story.
I was surprised they showed so much of the interviews. Loved how the staff knew Worthy was going to go off and how Diablo thinks he has some speed. Hilarious everyone shooting him down.
Also the details of the conversation with Ed Berry was very cool. A lot of good stuff in there. The choir boy comments are pretty topical too.
RE: I would not want to be a returning cb on this team
These guys are rightfully shitting all over these guys every episode lol
Well, they only have one legit guy in Banks, and he still has a lot to improve on. New defensive regime coming in they probably feel like Banks might not be what they want in a #1CB. Banks was pretty much hand picked for Wink, and he’s no longer here. They will address both CB and DT/DE next year for sure. Only have so many holes you can fill.
Except we have already seen that Mara put pressure on ownership to keep Saquon (especially the teaser for next week).
So how much pressure did he put on them in 2023 with Jones? (remember, Schoen is also pissed that he has to use the Franchise tag on Saquon so that tool was off the table).
It was stating the obvious but Schoen explaining that they treat QB differently than every other position explains some of what has gone on here during the Jones years. He's what they want off the field and that's weighing too heavily in there thinking it seems.
Impressed me the most of the QB interviews. I think he is going to be real good, hate having to root against him as he seems like a great person and is an amazing player.
hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
Except we have already seen that Mara put pressure on ownership to keep Saquon (especially the teaser for next week).
So how much pressure did he put on them in 2023 with Jones? (remember, Schoen is also pissed that he has to use the Franchise tag on Saquon so that tool was off the table).
Yea definitely could, and probably, is a factor...but I just think the fact that they didn't pick up the 5th year option meant that there was always a chance they'd be able to walk away if they truly wanted...
Now a lot changes in a year - was this regime as confident to stick to their guns back in the 2023 offseason as they are now? You might be totally right..but the optimist in me hopes otherwise I guess.
Second to the games, this is the best football programming I've ever seen.
Two things that are crystal clear to me 1) a football front office operates so much like any other business 2) coaching is by far the most important and complicated component.
that the Giants let him test the market instead of blowing him away with an offer before that point. It’s a business, dude, get over yourself. Obviously, I’m factoring in his decision to leave here but the tone just seemed weird on that phone call. Did we already learn that the Giants basically offered him 3/36? I don’t remember hearing that before and my eyebrows went up when Joe said it.
that the Giants let him test the market instead of blowing him away with an offer before that point. It’s a business, dude, get over yourself. Obviously, I’m factoring in his decision to leave here but the tone just seemed weird on that phone call. Did we already learn that the Giants basically offered him 3/36? I don’t remember hearing that before and my eyebrows went up when Joe said it.
He does come off as bitter. But losing will also do that. And he has to come to terms with the wear-and-tear his body has already taken.
Giants should have traded him in at mid-season. I said as much before that season started. His trade value by Halloween that year was sky high. Of course, the fans would have rioted.
the contract bit on Saquon at the end in the teaser. Sounds like the Giants did offer him 3/$36.
The first two episodes, Schoen was wondering out loud if Saquon would really leave the Giants for an extra million per year or if he meant what he said about wanting to be a Giant for life. He ultimately left for the extra million per year. I mean, that’s simplifying it and we don’t know how the contract was structured but yeah, it sure looked like the Giants were very close. I had just assumed the Eagles offer blew the Giants offer away and that the Giants wouldn’t come close and made it easy for him to leave. That wasn’t the case, it seems.
All that wanting to be a Giant talk really does seem like total nonsense now.
I know a lot of fans don't watch the player press conferences, but Saquon sounded like he wanted out when the season ended. Going to Philly had to be very attractive for him. He has roots there and they have an OL and QB.
Would watch 37 episodes in a row if they were available. As a fan or the draft they could do so much and wish we had more senior bowl.
For this episode the sticking points for me.
1. Saquan refused to say he would give the Giants the chance to match. Sounds like he never came off what he wanted last year or being tagged is what pushed him out.
2. Dabol is hard on QBs in the room with the X's and O's but he does have a relatable demeanor. He didn't get to test Jones before he was his QB, does Jones pass that test in Dabols mind?
3. Several references to the QBs being able to handle NY. Coupled with mentioning Jones approval of Nabers and I think this staff does still belive in Jones, for more then this year.
4. Odunze came off great. If we had selected him I would have been fine with it in April but would be running to buy an Odunze jersey tomorrow after this episode. Everything I want in a football player.
5. The Burns love is real. Idk if it's edited that way now that he's here or if he really was the pipe dream they seem to have had through this episode.
6. Dabol talks about watching Nabers tape and being impressed without mentioning Daniels. Either we knew he was gone or he wasn't on his mind after the interview. Interested on the timeliness there.
were set with the expectation, or at least the possibility Schoen would be making an opening offer.
The fact Schoen chose the ‘go see what your market is, and give us the chance to match’ tact, which was wise, also probably disappointed Saquon.
I really think Saquon, who admirably worked hard to come back from his injuries, thought having a monster first 6 games last year should have earned him the payday he wanted from the Giants.
Unfortunately, the balance of the season proved yet again why it usually isn’t wise to give out monster FA money to RBs. No matter how much you may like a guy
Ari Meirov
@MySportsUpdate
In the teaser for next week, #Giants owner John Mara is shown saying, "I'll have a tough time sleeping if Saquon Barkley goes..."
GM Joe Schoen is also shown on the phone saying that if he offered a 3-year, $37.5M deal with $25M guaranteed, Barkley would be with the Giants.
I'm not sure if Schoen is asking if he would stay or saying he would stay. The full sequence will air next week.
Barkley signed with the #Eagles for 3 years, $37.75M, with $26M guaranteed and another $9M in available incentives.
Coach Daboll know play schematics frontwards and backwards gives an inside view of why he got so frustrated on the sidelines with all of DJ’s bonehead mistakes and missed open receivers!
Coach Daboll know play schematics frontwards and backwards gives an inside view of why he got so frustrated on the sidelines with all of DJ’s bonehead mistakes and missed open receivers!
Bobby Skinner
@BobbySkinner_
Giants Hard Knocks Episode 2 thoughts
•No denying that the Giants wanted to trade up for Drake Maye
•Christian Wilkins probably is a Giant if Brian Burns wasn’t traded for
•Confirmed that Giants didn’t make an offer to Saquon & still haven’t gotten any sense of urgency from Schoen to keep him. Schoen seemed miffed that Saquon turned down 2023 offers
•Unclear where things really stood with Xavier McKinney after cap number was more than expected but he was also linked to Christian Wilkins
•Crazy how low Burns compensation was when they were convinced it would take a 1st or 2 2nds
Eric, I wonder if Schoen is actually talking about last year.
My subjective, opinionated take is that Schoen didn't really want Barkley back and Barkley didn't really want to come back.
Everything else seems like background noise to me.
This.
Schoen in his absolute gut knows paying that position that contract hurts you in team building. Berry called him out on it over the phone - and I think he was right.
It also sounds like from a business perspective these guys have some bad blood after last offseason - it was a good thing for both parties to walk away.
Was that Schoen did not want Barkley back after negotiations went sour last year and Barkley had a less than thrilling season. This week I strongly believe that conversation was added to show that Barkley also wanted leave. A PR move to make the decision to let him go much easier on the fan base.
The Eagles, directly or indirectly were cozying up to Saquon right after the 2023 season ended. The Giants did the honorable thing not franchising him. He would have been more than bitter.
I've said it many times, Roc Nation messed him up with unrealistic $$ expectations, the previous year, then came the franchise tag. When Schoen called him this time, Saquon just wanted a divorce from the team - he wasn't going to get the money he wanted, got tired of being the only player on offense playing at a high level and he got tired of losing.
Barkelys vibe on the phone with Joe was distant and disinterested. JS was trying his hardest to warm up the convo
Very much so. Very unlike him, but it definitely seemed like he had one foot out the door. That snarky response of “I already told you where I want to be, so…” spoke volumes. He felt lowballed.
but this Saquon Soap Opera is just ridiculous. The guy isn't Walter Payton, Eric Dickerson or Barry Sanders. He's a very good RB who has struggled to be available. And while I'm not going to hold the team's dismal record with him against him, he's been replaceable for a number of years.
When Schoen said he spoke to Jones during the Combine about Nabers - I think that's what I heard - that was very telling.
I really like Daboll. He's just a football junkie. The best part of E2 was Daboll drilling the QBs.
- We wanted to go up to #3 to select a QB. I think we would’ve been happy with either Maye or Daniels (you have to remember that at the time of the Combine, it was unclear who the Commanders would take). Both guys seemed to impress. Caleb seemed like the least impressive from what I saw.
- John Mara was pushing HARD to retain Barkley. Schoen seemed to be a lot more level-headed about the situation.
- Burns was the goal and if we had re-signed Barkley and McKinney, Burns wouldn’t be a Football Giant.
- the brass liked all three WRs. It’s not clear why they had Nabers over Odunze, but you could tell Daboll loved him. I think many loved Odunze too, but they went with the more talented one over the “choir boy”
Barkley conversation toward the end on the phone with Schoen is really fascinating. Barkley's tone seemed odd, or distant, or maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
He was definitely butt hurt at what the offers had been. Good for Schoen. Don’t pay for a 27 year old RB when your team is full of holes.
But DO pay $160 million for a mediocre QB when your team's full of holes
Shouldn’t have done either. Should have tagged DJ and let Barkley walk the season before. That’s what I was barking for but I’ve never liked Barkley at all.
When Schoen said he spoke to Jones during the Combine about Nabers - I think that's what I heard - that was very telling.
I think Nabers was the backup plan in case we couldn’t move up to #3. Hence asking what DJ thought. If anything, it shows me that there was absolutely no interest in JJ McCarthy. It was either trading up for Maye/Daniels or running it back with DJ for another year.
Very interesting and what a treat during the quietest time of year!
But no denying the desire for QB. Rumors seemed accurate.
Schoen didn't want to pay Barkley.....and I suspect Barkley fucked the Giants. Mara is not happy. I was neutral, but my hate is growing.....F¥€£ Barkley!
I think Morgan is going to get heat in Carolina....Schoen is coming across as a decent negotiator.
I sense the injury/availability of Jones is bigger concern than he sucks.....from Giants perspective. "We can't lose 3 games if he is not ready". Curious to see their view of Lock.
They mentioned corner several times.....but FA big money offer toward Wikins, a DT and their big move of Burns. Talk is cheap, follow the money.
Next week will be very interesting!!!!
Yeah Daboll drilling the QB's and all the QB interviews
was like football porn.
-For all those that wanted more Daboll this episode you sure got it vintage.
-Saquon wanted no part of being here, and Schoen wanted no part of keeping him so there was 0% chance he was ever coming back. End of story.
-Schoen is running this team. There wasn't a Mara anywhere to be found at the combine. The concept that old man Mara is making any consequential decision on player personnel is a joke.
-As everyone is saying moving up to #3 was very real. They loved Maye. When they couldn't move up it was gonna be a WR.
- I agree with the gut feeling that Daboll pushed real hard for Nabors and that probably clinched it because Odunze is a really really clean prospect. I'd expect Nabors to be involved with just about everything we do from minute one.
Lastly Eric I'm not just saying this because it's your site, but any football thread you're heavily involved with is a home run.
You could tell from episode 1 Schoen was done with Saquon
was so much from the episode... hearing from the actual scouts was great too.
Seeing YOUNG scouts and FO personnel means that Schoen is really running his show. His call to Saquon's agent was no bullshit data. You could tell he was done with the bullshit and ready to spend where it matters. I'm more confident than ever in this bunch.
What else struck me, not on Hard Knocks but Giants.com was the OL and TE interviews. We have legitimate veteran depth at TE, OL, something our best teams always had. I'm getting near Pollyanna territory but f it, we added a #1 WR, an Edge opposite Kayvon, two big skilled vet OGs, depth at TE and OL and more pieces in the secondary. And we have young dynamic WRs. It's all up to DJ now.
RE: Yeah Daboll drilling the QB's and all the QB interviews
I know a lot of fans don't watch the player press conferences, but Saquon sounded like he wanted out when the season ended. Going to Philly had to be very attractive for him. He has roots there and they have an OL and QB.
He sure sounded like he wanted nothing to do with the Giants when Schoen called him.
What a slight, the Giants offering him 3/$36 million.
/sarcasm
Barkelys vibe on the phone with Joe was distant and disinterested. JS was trying his hardest to warm up the convo
Very much so. Very unlike him, but it definitely seemed like he had one foot out the door. That snarky response of “I already told you where I want to be, so…” spoke volumes. He felt lowballed.
Did anyone else wonder if "I already told you where I want to be, so..." meant either a) 'I have already told you how much I will agree to return to NYG for' OR b) 'I have already told you that with the NYG is where I want to play?' I wasn't exactly clear which it was. If it was the latter, then SB comes across looking pretty bad.
why make that offer to Saquon (or even propose it) if last week, it didn't make sense to have a $40 million QB handing off to a $12 million RB?
I think it has something to do with the Giants overall organizational philosophy, "once a giant, always a giant". You heard Schoen talking about ring of honor, these are all Mara traits.
Schoen's job is to find the balance between Mara and building a competitive team. So at the end of the day, he has to play the game with Barkley to satisfy ownership.
Just my opinion.
art was right that episode was amazing - dabs combine interviews alone
worth the price of admission. wilkins and #39 is tempting but if you look at what was still on the board it's less clear. the most tempting alternative wasnt a player but the trade the rams did giving up 2 seconds for 1, which then pushes that pick below nubin any way. also would have voided the mckinney comp pick next year so not totally free.
there is a reasonable argument both ways but i think an edge bender like burns is just too hard to find elsewhere. also a couple years younger than wilkins. there's a reason he got tagged and had trade value, players like him at that age do not hit the open market.
since last summer it's been clear schoen didnt want to bring barkley back. i hope motor works out and does a good job but i think schoen dropped the ball on that one. the deal barkley's team proposed last year, encompassing the $10m from tag, was fair. ed berry clearly saw the writing on the wall and i thought it was interesting when he asked schoen point blank if they wanted to move on he answered like natalie imbruglia. i give him credit for taking the less comfortable path, but i dont think that's going to provide much respite if barkley gains 2k yards and 10+ tds in philly this year. hopefully that OL implodes without kelce. schoen's entire strategy in that negotiation was reactive vs proactive. i would have liked to see more of daboll's thoughts on that but it seems like the giants put a wall up on that.
RE: Brandon Brown is 100% getting hired away next cycle
Eric, I wonder if Schoen is actually talking about last year.
My subjective, opinionated take is that Schoen didn't really want Barkley back and Barkley didn't really want to come back.
Everything else seems like background noise to me.
i think your first opinion is right and the second one is wrong. i think barkley wanted to come back and was hurt that the feeling wasnt mutual (going back to last summer, and then probably again that the giants never put an offer in front of him ahead of FA).
if schoen wanted him back i think he'd have put an offer in front of him before FA, even if it were just the same extension they'd offered prior but adjusted to the cap increase, the problem was they were so close to a deal last summer i think he couldnt do that without risking saquon would take it.
my big unknown in all this is daboll, if he wanted to keep barkley like it seems like he wanted nabers, i think barkley would be back. i could believe that he wanted to burn the boats and running back to force the shift he wants into a passing team.
My son want through the same type of QB interviews for college last year. They do the same thing. We also had QB training coach, a former D1 college coach, work with him on those types of questions. The good and smart QBs come prepared. When you’ve been a QB for years and it’s your life, you should understand offenses as well as the coaches.
Coach Daboll know play schematics frontwards and backwards gives an inside view of why he got so frustrated on the sidelines with all of DJ’s bonehead mistakes and missed open receivers!
That must be why only he gave him $82M in guaranteed money!
and commentary that you don’t need to be concerned was scripted.
The Daboll stuff with the QB prospects was pure gold. Schoen doing his job with Saquon but clearly didn’t want him going forward, despite the ownership sentiments. Looks like moving up for Maye was indeed the goal with Nabers as the clear fallback if they had to stay.
Schoen and Daboll in charge all the way.
I could watch this again today with no problem. Good stuff.
Quite a few here have made the point the Nabers pick was about Jones. For me, it isn't that at all. You can see how much Daboll loved him. And Brandon Brown making the point about most great WRs aren't choir boys. Brown making the point that NYG needed that on the team.
If I had to guess has to first preference of each:
Schoen - Maye
Daboll - Nabers
With that said, they both like Jones (I'd guess Schoen more). He got his contract and he's the QB here until he isn't. But, there clearly was interest in Maye.
What a great episode. Imagine not liking or watching this?
How about Saquon's agent asking Schoen if he'd prefer if Saquon left? Schoen's answer was telling. He didn't want him.
the contract bit on Saquon at the end in the teaser. Sounds like the Giants did offer him 3/$36.
The first two episodes, Schoen was wondering out loud if Saquon would really leave the Giants for an extra million per year or if he meant what he said about wanting to be a Giant for life. He ultimately left for the extra million per year. I mean, that’s simplifying it and we don’t know how the contract was structured but yeah, it sure looked like the Giants were very close. I had just assumed the Eagles offer blew the Giants offer away and that the Giants wouldn’t come close and made it easy for him to leave. That wasn’t the case, it seems.
All that wanting to be a Giant talk really does seem like total nonsense now.
The contract Schoen was referring to was the mid-season 2022 offer. They didn't offer Barkley a contract for 2024.
I think Schoen was pissed(he sarcastically mentions the contract Barley turned down) and the amount they offered. He was clearly angry about the tag negotiations and wanted no part of it again this year. It seemed he was convincing himself not wanting Barkley back.
are worried about Jones getting injured again and needing to be ready with a plan. A few times Schoen says they need to be able to pivot. They also mentioned that the plan was for Jones to have a couple seasons to prove himself. I suspect if he either doesn't perform or gets hurt this year, Jones is gone.
Yes, there was clearly acrimony between Schoen and Barkley.
RE: Brandon Brown is 100% getting hired away next cycle
was like football porn.
-For all those that wanted more Daboll this episode you sure got it vintage.
-Saquon wanted no part of being here, and Schoen wanted no part of keeping him so there was 0% chance he was ever coming back. End of story.
-Schoen is running this team. There wasn't a Mara anywhere to be found at the combine. The concept that old man Mara is making any consequential decision on player personnel is a joke.
-As everyone is saying moving up to #3 was very real. They loved Maye. When they couldn't move up it was gonna be a WR.
- I agree with the gut feeling that Daboll pushed real hard for Nabors and that probably clinched it because Odunze is a really really clean prospect. I'd expect Nabors to be involved with just about everything we do from minute one.
Lastly Eric I'm not just saying this because it's your site, but any football thread you're heavily involved with is a home run.
Wasn't that McDonald in the press box saying he saw Daboll run across the street?
"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
was so much from the episode... hearing from the actual scouts was great too.
Seeing YOUNG scouts and FO personnel means that Schoen is really running his show. His call to Saquon's agent was no bullshit data. You could tell he was done with the bullshit and ready to spend where it matters. I'm more confident than ever in this bunch.
What else struck me, not on Hard Knocks but Giants.com was the OL and TE interviews. We have legitimate veteran depth at TE, OL, something our best teams always had. I'm getting near Pollyanna territory but f it, we added a #1 WR, an Edge opposite Kayvon, two big skilled vet OGs, depth at TE and OL and more pieces in the secondary. And we have young dynamic WRs. It's all up to DJ now.
Yes, for those who have not watched the OL and TE interviews with Schmeelk, I recommend them.
RE: art was right that episode was amazing - dabs combine interviews alone
worth the price of admission. wilkins and #39 is tempting but if you look at what was still on the board it's less clear. the most tempting alternative wasnt a player but the trade the rams did giving up 2 seconds for 1, which then pushes that pick below nubin any way. also would have voided the mckinney comp pick next year so not totally free.
there is a reasonable argument both ways but i think an edge bender like burns is just too hard to find elsewhere. also a couple years younger than wilkins. there's a reason he got tagged and had trade value, players like him at that age do not hit the open market.
since last summer it's been clear schoen didnt want to bring barkley back. i hope motor works out and does a good job but i think schoen dropped the ball on that one. the deal barkley's team proposed last year, encompassing the $10m from tag, was fair. ed berry clearly saw the writing on the wall and i thought it was interesting when he asked schoen point blank if they wanted to move on he answered like natalie imbruglia. i give him credit for taking the less comfortable path, but i dont think that's going to provide much respite if barkley gains 2k yards and 10+ tds in philly this year. hopefully that OL implodes without kelce. schoen's entire strategy in that negotiation was reactive vs proactive. i would have liked to see more of daboll's thoughts on that but it seems like the giants put a wall up on that.
Can't operate on the basis on what Philly may do. That's how we ended up with Ben McAdoo.
Agree with others that Dabes was star of this show. QB and OC savant.
Clearly, he believes he can coach Daniel Jones up to success. The whole narrative about talking to the Pats about moving up to #3 was all couched in "...we have to protect ourselves due to DJ's injury history." not that he's not their guy.
The dinner shrimp cocktail scene goes into the.trash bin labeled Wastes of Time.
Schoen is an interesting guy. Acts chill while he speaks stress. Not a table banger. Straight with Saquon and agent Berry on the phone. Coolly pragmatic about RB falloff in general. Prods others for input as a good leader should. Love that he's always watching tape of potential acquisitions. That's the job.
CB starter jokes were not funny to me.
Dabes running the 40 jokes a bit overdone but amusing.
Eric, I wonder if Schoen is actually talking about last year.
My subjective, opinionated take is that Schoen didn't really want Barkley back and Barkley didn't really want to come back.
Everything else seems like background noise to me.
i think your first opinion is right and the second one is wrong. i think barkley wanted to come back and was hurt that the feeling wasnt mutual (going back to last summer, and then probably again that the giants never put an offer in front of him ahead of FA).
if schoen wanted him back i think he'd have put an offer in front of him before FA, even if it were just the same extension they'd offered prior but adjusted to the cap increase, the problem was they were so close to a deal last summer i think he couldnt do that without risking saquon would take it.
my big unknown in all this is daboll, if he wanted to keep barkley like it seems like he wanted nabers, i think barkley would be back. i could believe that he wanted to burn the boats and running back to force the shift he wants into a passing team.
I think Schoen offered him what was a fair deal last year (and based on what we know, it seems like it was). I think he personally got frustrated with Saquon's (and Roc Nation's stance). "Took 10 years off my life." Left a bad taste in his mouth.
Saquon's demeanor ever since his final press interaction seemed to suggest he was done with the Giants. The phone call on the show last night was even worse. Saquon was glad they let him go.
If anything, it shows me that there was absolutely no interest in JJ McCarthy.
Which shows that "a lot of what was reported both in the media and by the asshats" wasn't true.
Except it's a TV show that they have to edit for time. The Giants interviewed McCarthy at the Combine and even McCarthy said he hit it out of the park with them.
I'm not sure Brandon Brown leaves soon. I think he's a valuable asset, but I'm not sure he is seasoned enough yet to be an actual GM. (I also don't think Kafka may be out as soon as everyone thinks... if he interviews like he speaks to the press, boring... I'd like to see what his real personality is like).
If Brown does leave, it could be Rosetti or Crowden, but my money is on Dennis Hickey.
so they couldn’t have been that floored with him. Facts are on Milton’s side there.
I thought Daniels was unimpressive in that interview too. He seemed like a skinny kid talking to a bunch of adults. Seems a bit quiet. Kind of matched the scouting report they gave on him earlier.
"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
I was thinking the same thing k2! I really wanted Rome because he just seemed like a professional and NOT a diva. Even on the show, that kid is ready to go! Here's to hoping Nabers will not get in trouble in NYC.
"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
I think Brown was saying to JS after watching Nabers on tape that they were expecting more of an aggressive player in the interview. I think that's where the great WRs aren't choirboy comment came from.
My take is-while publicly the Giants are not happy with the video-they know that's all part of the "dawg" that Daboll was looking for. Perhaps they wish Nabers was just a bit more discreet about it.
As others have pointed out, it seems like an awkward situation where Schoen didn’t want him back, and Barkley didn’t want to be back, but they both had to keep up appearances rather than just admit they were done.
I’m very interested to see if Barkley actually did “circle back”.
I'm not sure Brandon Brown leaves soon. I think he's a valuable asset, but I'm not sure he is seasoned enough yet to be an actual GM. (I also don't think Kafka may be out as soon as everyone thinks... if he interviews like he speaks to the press, boring... I'd like to see what his real personality is like).
If Brown does leave, it could be Rosetti or Crowden, but my money is on Dennis Hickey.
I think Joe thinks of him self as more of a draft guy and would put a guy more focused on Pro scouting as his number 2. What was interesting is as he saw the cap number he went straight to Rosetti not Brown.
so they couldn’t have been that floored with him. Facts are on Milton’s side there.
I thought Daniels was unimpressive in that interview too. He seemed like a skinny kid talking to a bunch of adults. Seems a bit quiet. Kind of matched the scouting report they gave on him earlier.
The Giants met with him on Easter. They were interested. They were more interested in Nabers.
I'm not sure Brandon Brown leaves soon. I think he's a valuable asset, but I'm not sure he is seasoned enough yet to be an actual GM. (I also don't think Kafka may be out as soon as everyone thinks... if he interviews like he speaks to the press, boring... I'd like to see what his real personality is like).
If Brown does leave, it could be Rosetti or Crowden, but my money is on Dennis Hickey.
I think Joe thinks of him self as more of a draft guy and would put a guy more focused on Pro scouting as his number 2. What was interesting is as he saw the cap number he went straight to Rosetti not Brown.
"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
I was thinking the same thing k2! I really wanted Rome because he just seemed like a professional and NOT a diva. Even on the show, that kid is ready to go! Here's to hoping Nabers will not get in trouble in NYC.
I didn't love Schoen using the ring of honor, wanting to be a Giant stuff against a player. That came off as weak to me. I don't think a GM should imply to a player that if you want to be here, you can take less money.
I think Barkley, no matter what his representation and whoever else advised him, felt getting paid more than the equivalent of the franchise tag in 2023 and 2024 was the fair floor. I think that's where the 1-2 million apart came from last year. Twenty-two in guarantees was around that, I think he wanted a token gesture above that.
In the grand scheme of things the difference between guaranteeing 22M and 24M in seasons where the Giants guaranteed 82M to Jones, 67M to Thomas, 46.5M to Lawrence, and 76M to Burns just seems silly.
I didn't love Schoen using the ring of honor, wanting to be a Giant stuff against a player. That came off as weak to me. I don't think a GM should imply to a player that if you want to be here, you can take less money.
I think Barkley, no matter what his representation and whoever else advised him, felt getting paid more than the equivalent of the franchise tag in 2023 and 2024 was the fair floor. I think that's where the 1-2 million apart came from last year. Twenty-two in guarantees was around that, I think he wanted a token gesture above that.
In the grand scheme of things the difference between guaranteeing 22M and 24M in seasons where the Giants guaranteed 82M to Jones, 67M to Thomas, 46.5M to Lawrence, and 76M to Burns just seems silly.
Disagree. Schoen has his number. Saquon had his. Schoen reminded Barkley about his legacy and his own words about remaining a Giant for life. I would have done the same at the point (it was a last-ditch tool... I think he read the writing on the wall too).
"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
This coupled with watching a ton of Odunze last season and then seeing him in this episode has me really wishing we took him. Nabers seems like he is going to be a very high risk/high reward pick. Odunze ceiling may be lower by a smidge but his floor is absolutely higher by a mile. Barring injury he will be a hell of a player.
Really hope we got it right. All coaches think they can help players be who they need to be. It ain't that easy.
- Much like most of you, I don't think Saquon wanted to come back nor did Schoen want him back. Via Mara's appearance last week and in the "teaser" for next week, he clearly wanted Saquon back. Goes back to a comment I've made in the past about Mara, I don't think he mandates GM's do anything, but he "meddles" by making his feelings known and doesn't entirely stay out of things
- Clear interest in Maye. They may still like Daniel, but they clearly don't like him that much or have long term plans for him if they were that interested in Drake
- Before the draft I thought the Odunze vs Nabers conversation was interesting. Nabers was everything you want on the field while Odunze was everything you want off it (plus pretty damn good on it). This week's episode showed that. Gun to their heads, Schoen/Daboll took the guy they thought was better on the field
- I'm guessing we'll be seeing a lot of Hannah Burnett over the next 3 episodes and she may come out the big winner from this. She's came off very well
- Bowen's face when asked about Brian Burns told you everything you need to know about how he feels about Spider. I'd love to play poker against Bowen
- I couldn't imagine what a disaster this series would have been with Gettleman/Judge
I didn't love Schoen using the ring of honor, wanting to be a Giant stuff against a player. That came off as weak to me. I don't think a GM should imply to a player that if you want to be here, you can take less money.
I think Barkley, no matter what his representation and whoever else advised him, felt getting paid more than the equivalent of the franchise tag in 2023 and 2024 was the fair floor. I think that's where the 1-2 million apart came from last year. Twenty-two in guarantees was around that, I think he wanted a token gesture above that.
In the grand scheme of things the difference between guaranteeing 22M and 24M in seasons where the Giants guaranteed 82M to Jones, 67M to Thomas, 46.5M to Lawrence, and 76M to Burns just seems silly.
Disagree. Schoen has his number. Saquon had his. Schoen reminded Barkley about his legacy and his own words about remaining a Giant for life. I would have done the same at the point (it was a last-ditch tool... I think he read the writing on the wall too).
I think Schoen never wanted to commit to Barkley after 2023. He's repeated the data on 27-year-olds in each episode.
You don't lose a player you want to keep over the 1-2M gap in guarantees reported last year. And the poor me shit because the negotiations were hard is also a little pathetic. Oh poor Joe, negotiating was hard. Wah.
I think the offer in 2023 was a non-offer, and I don't think they would have matched anything except a ridiculously low offer in 2024.
I don't even like Barkley, but it's so obvious Schoen was doing the minimum to keep the appearance up they wanted Barkley.
And keep this in mind - if the reports are true that Barkley would have accepted 3/33M with 23M guaranteed.
The Giants paid Barkley 10.1M guaranteed on 2023, and then gave Singletary 2/16.5M with 9.5M fully guaranteed. 27.5M with 20.6M.
Again I don't even like Barkley, but he's certainly worth the incremental 2.4M in guarantees.
Some of my takeaways
- Before the draft I thought the Odunze vs Nabers conversation was interesting. Nabers was everything you want on the field while Odunze was everything you want off it (plus pretty damn good on it). This week's episode showed that. Gun to their heads, Schoen/Daboll took the guy they thought was better on the field
Those top three WRs are really 1A, 1AA and 1AAA. Any one would have been a great pick. I preferred Odunze because I think a Larry Fitzgerald type would be best for the team, but just as pleased with Nabers (I also thought Harrison came across really well in the show but didn't think the Giants had a chance to pick him).
Quote:
- I couldn't imagine what a disaster this series would have been with Gettleman/Judge
It certainly would have been more humorous. Indistinguishable from Curb Your Enthusiasm probably.
Almost every pundit had the Giants taking Nabers for weeks before the draft. Only as the draft approached, did the McCarthy stuff pick up speed with them.
Only on BBI were we focused on other players.
The obvious choice from the start was Nabers. We all should have known better.
We're talking about a guy who some scouts had above Harrison.
I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
Schoen should have taken the "test the market" approach with Barkley last year. It would have been better since the RB market was worse last year too. Franchise Jones and decide if you want to match any offer Barkley got.
I admit it would have been more challenging doing that off of 2022.
I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
Schoen should have taken the "test the market" approach with Barkley last year. It would have been better since the RB market was worse last year too. Franchise Jones and decide if you want to match any offer Barkley got.
I admit it would have been more challenging doing that off of 2022.
I agree with Biteymax above... it's clear Mara uses passive aggressive pressure on the GM. I'm not sure Mara would have OKed them letting Saquon test the market last year (players who test the market are usually gone).
Some of my takeaways
- Before the draft I thought the Odunze vs Nabers conversation was interesting. Nabers was everything you want on the field while Odunze was everything you want off it (plus pretty damn good on it). This week's episode showed that. Gun to their heads, Schoen/Daboll took the guy they thought was better on the field
Those top three WRs are really 1A, 1AA and 1AAA. Any one would have been a great pick. I preferred Odunze because I think a Larry Fitzgerald type would be best for the team, but just as pleased with Nabers (I also thought Harrison came across really well in the show but didn't think the Giants had a chance to pick him).
Quote:
- I couldn't imagine what a disaster this series would have been with Gettleman/Judge
It certainly would have been more humorous. Indistinguishable from Curb Your Enthusiasm probably.
Agree with the WRs, I honestly would have been more than happy with any of the three, however I think if you watch what Daboll did in Buffalo, Nabers clearly has more of a skill set that he's looking for. If you watch Diggs and how he moved him inside and out, Nabers absolutely perfect for that role and dare I say has more upside.
While Odunze would still produce, I can't pick out a role in the offense that would perfectly fit his skill set like I can with Nabers.
I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
Schoen should have taken the "test the market" approach with Barkley last year. It would have been better since the RB market was worse last year too. Franchise Jones and decide if you want to match any offer Barkley got.
I admit it would have been more challenging doing that off of 2022.
I agree with Biteymax above... it's clear Mara uses passive aggressive pressure on the GM. I'm not sure Mara would have OKed them letting Saquon test the market last year (players who test the market are usually gone).
I'm coming close to tagging him with the moniker of "Meddling Mara"
Eric, I can see your view. If Barkley had just said yes last year, it's not like Schoen was going to say just kidding.
Again, I don't even like Barkley. But it's weird to lose a player you like over a reported difference of 1M-2M in guarantees. If the reason for that is frustration from the negotiations, Schoen needs to find a new profession.
The outcome is weird. He'll end up paying a few million less for Barkley + Singletary at similar ages for the 2023 and 2024 seasons for what he could have paid for two seasons of Barkley.
Eric, I can see your view. If Barkley had just said yes last year, it's not like Schoen was going to say just kidding.
Again, I don't even like Barkley. But it's weird to lose a player you like over a reported difference of 1M-2M in guarantees. If the reason for that is frustration from the negotiations, Schoen needs to find a new profession.
The outcome is weird. He'll end up paying a few million less for Barkley + Singletary at similar ages for the 2023 and 2024 seasons for what he could have paid for two seasons of Barkley.
George Young was even worse. He had his red line and wouldn't budge. Different era, but it seemed to really bug him that a player would even dare to ask for more money than Young was offering.
I think it's pretty clear that Schoen felt the franchise was already allocating too much money to one running back. If you accept that, his position is easier to understand. Schoen was already above his comfort zone. If Mara wasn't nagging him, it probably would not have gotten even that far.
1. Ran behind a shitshow OL for years. How many times was he tackled 2 yards behind LOS?
2. Considerable injury history over 6 seasons
3. Definitely lost speed after knee injury.
4. As I said above in thread: Schoen over Saquon and Saquon over Giants. Both wanted to move on…
I’m not a Saquon hater so I hope he revives his career in Philly. He is in a great situation on that diverse offense. The main problem was he was drafted number 2 by our idiot GM
And for the Giants I hope Singletary has a great injury free season.
is a controversial subject on this site, but in the first two episodes, it is very telling to me that the two guys making the biggest push to keep Saquon are Mara and McDonald. (and this is after the edits were approved... makes you wonder what they left out).
I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
My guess is privately Schoen's view is something like:
Dude, I don't even want you here, and the only reason I offered this much is because my boss keeps coming in my office telling me how much he loves you.
The worst outcome for Schoen is Philly validating Mara's perspective. And if Barkley has a huge season, it will be a credibility eroding problem for Schoen in Mara's eyes.
Small tidbit from the show that I liked, most may shrug their
so they couldn’t have been that floored with him. Facts are on Milton’s side there.
I thought Daniels was unimpressive in that interview too. He seemed like a skinny kid talking to a bunch of adults. Seems a bit quiet. Kind of matched the scouting report they gave on him earlier.
Daniels comment about how he would handle NYC pressure was funny "Well, I did play in Death Valley" ... yeah, ok kid.
RE: Small tidbit from the show that I liked, most may shrug their
It can’t be more clear how the Barkley situation played out the past 18+ months. Mara and Co desperately wanted him to be the face of the franchise for the next 25 years, and already ordering the ring of honor signage. And willing to resign him at any cost.
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
The frustration of dealing with Barkley, calling his Giant for Life bluff, and pressure from ownership all couldn't be more clear IMO
Some of my takeaways
- Before the draft I thought the Odunze vs Nabers conversation was interesting. Nabers was everything you want on the field while Odunze was everything you want off it (plus pretty damn good on it). This week's episode showed that. Gun to their heads, Schoen/Daboll took the guy they thought was better on the field
Those top three WRs are really 1A, 1AA and 1AAA. Any one would have been a great pick. I preferred Odunze because I think a Larry Fitzgerald type would be best for the team, but just as pleased with Nabers (I also thought Harrison came across really well in the show but didn't think the Giants had a chance to pick him).
Quote:
- I couldn't imagine what a disaster this series would have been with Gettleman/Judge
It certainly would have been more humorous. Indistinguishable from Curb Your Enthusiasm probably.
Agree with the WRs, I honestly would have been more than happy with any of the three, however I think if you watch what Daboll did in Buffalo, Nabers clearly has more of a skill set that he's looking for. If you watch Diggs and how he moved him inside and out, Nabers absolutely perfect for that role and dare I say has more upside.
While Odunze would still produce, I can't pick out a role in the offense that would perfectly fit his skill set like I can with Nabers.
It’s clear, he’s more OBJ than Victor Cruz, personality wise, right? Most alph receivers are like that, which was mentioned in last nights episode.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
It’s clear, he’s more OBJ than Victor Cruz, personality wise, right? Most alph receivers are like that, which was mentioned in last nights episode.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
I'd be shocked if Victor Cruz didn't go to strip clubs.
My guess here, and why we are seeing more about their Wilkins interest than Burns. The preference was Burns, but used signing Wilkins as leverage. And need to show that in the episodes the Wilkins love was real, and wasn’t just a leverage ploy.
They probably liked Wilkins. But obviously not more than Burns since they could have signed him for less than Burns, and kept the draft capital. But I think the threat of Wilkins is how we went from two 1’s to “at least two twos” to a two and five.
It’s clear, he’s more OBJ than Victor Cruz, personality wise, right? Most alph receivers are like that, which was mentioned in last nights episode.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
I'd be shocked if Victor Cruz didn't go to strip clubs.
I’d be even more shocked if the Giants passed on a player because he liked to look at tits.
It can’t be more clear how the Barkley situation played out the past 18+ months. Mara and Co desperately wanted him to be the face of the franchise for the next 25 years, and already ordering the ring of honor signage. And willing to resign him at any cost.
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
I 100% agree. It's total conjecture of course, but all the pieces fit. It looks to me like Schoen's directive in the 2023 offseason was to keep both Barkley and Jones, and Schoen rightly wanted to sign Barkley and franchise Jones (if Jones wouldn't take a reasonable deal).
Barkley fucked that plan by demanding an extra year or whatever (after signing with the Eables Barkley said he got the 4th guaranteed year that he wanted, i.e. 2023 with the Giants and the 3 years with the Eagles) so Schoen had to pivot with little time to sign Jones to a deal that wouldn't screw the 2023 cap (barley eating up $12 million by getting the FT), but because Jones's camp was playing hardball and knew they had all the leverage (time running out, no more franchise tag), Jone's deal ended up with a big cap hit in 2024.
That's why Schoen kept mentioning the $40 million. He is freakin annoyed, IMO, that he is stuck with Jones on what is now his THIRD prove-it year, except now he has to pay Jones $40 million to prove his worth. He couldn't let Jones walk in FA because Mara wanted him on the team (again, just conjecture, but certainly looks that way based on what we've seen so far).
It seems like others in the organization didn't agree with Rosetti's stance, if they were in fact seriously considering signing Wilkins.
I'm still unsure of the clinical definition of difference-maker, but I'd hope any player they contemplating pursuing in the 100M+ range met that criteria.
this is probably "confirmation bias" on my part, but part of me says that Schoen's response to McDonald about having a $40 million dollar QB handing off to a $12 million back was a shot across the bow..."you fuckers put me in this situation."
Of course, the opposite can be true, that the buck stops with Schoen and he screwed up. But I wonder...
RE: Reading the tea leaves and piecing it together
It can’t be more clear how the Barkley situation played out the past 18+ months. Mara and Co desperately wanted him to be the face of the franchise for the next 25 years, and already ordering the ring of honor signage. And willing to resign him at any cost.
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
The frustration of dealing with Barkley, calling his Giant for Life bluff, and pressure from ownership all couldn't be more clear IMO
This is such a great post and something I've tried to articulate, but you do it brilliantly here.
It’s clear, he’s more OBJ than Victor Cruz, personality wise, right? Most alph receivers are like that, which was mentioned in last nights episode.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
I'd be shocked if Victor Cruz didn't go to strip clubs.
I’d be even more shocked if the Giants passed on a player because he liked to look at tits.
That's not the concern. It's that he knowingly broke the law to do it. And he already had a gun arrest. Coincidence or pattern? Too early to tell.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
Leftover over thoughts from the second episode of Hard Knocks:
• Last night’s episode exceeded expectations on what they’d cover. Don’t see how they avoid revealing who they were targeting in a trade up now.
• We had another prominent member of the front office talk with uncertainty about who the QB would be. Brandon Brown on handling Nabers’ personality this week, Tim McDonnell on the QB leaning on the run game last week.
• Christian Wilkins was a more serious consideration than anyone realized. So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?
• Will be interesting to see how the Burns negotiations evolved. Schoen indicated he offered two seconds at the combine. How did he get down to a 2 and a 5 from there?
• If any of the concerns with Nabers’ personality prevent him from reaching his potential, it will be easy to second guess the decision to take him over Rome Odunze whose intangibles were “everything you want.”
• The lack of investment at corner continues to stick out. Don’t think they’ll put Schoen there. Could still see them spend on a vet there.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
Marvin Harrison refusing to take the cheese from Mike Groh in the Combine interview was low key smooth. Seemed obvious the question was the plant to see if Marv would; they very likely knew he wouldn't.
Daniels comment about how he would handle NYC pressure was funny "Well, I did play in Death Valley" ... yeah, ok kid.
I don't think Daniels was saying Baton Rouge was NYC. To me, he was suggesting he's used to playing for a program with high expectations.
LSU has a very noisy fan and alumni base. They aren't interested in playing in the Gator or Citrus Bowl. It's the F4 or bust. Hell, they ran two national championship coaches out of there very quicky - Les Miles and Ed Orgeron - after they hit some headwinds.
One more thing. I'm so tired of this "NYC is so hard to play in" mantra. The NY/NJ/CT media has lost significant MPHs off their fastball. Some of the questions they ask are laughable. And players are more prepared than ever to give canned, generic answers. This organization needs to worry less about this myth and get the most talented people.
was Schoen doing prep work with the PR team before his media session at the Combine. And how that team thought it was important to let Schoen know the Twitter universe was analyze his every word and body language.
That seemed a bit strange to me. It's not like Schoen is the press secretary for the White House. JFC, it's football and you run the team.
I can see the importance of using that team for players, especially because many players are so young. But for an executive like Schoen, he should be able to deal with a football press conference without prepping with a PR team.
A lot has been written about Saquon's attitude during the call with Schoen. I wonder whether he knew that his conversation was being recorded. NJ law does not require notice as long as one party consents, but I would think a TV show like Hard Knocks in order to be fair would let all parties know the conversation was being recorded.
If Saquon did know, that knowledge alone could have contributed to his "attitude".
Odunze's answers were also canned. He was impressive because he knew exactly what to say to impress. (Think of how you interview when you interview).
Odunze has top intangibles, but let's be honest here, he was saying what he knew what he had to say.
I give Odunze credit for being prepared, and for the most part he sounded genuine. From all pre-draft reports, he is a kid with very high character and a team leader.
I've heard quite a few interviews with Maye in the pre-draft process. He always sounded solid and measured, but he blew me away in that 90 second clip with the Giants staff. He was on it.
Odunze's answers were also canned. He was impressive because he knew exactly what to say to impress. (Think of how you interview when you interview).
Odunze has top intangibles, but let's be honest here, he was saying what he knew what he had to say.
I think that he was well spoken also helped make a great imprewsion. Not at all an issue with the direction they took, he was just a very impressive interview with the tape to back it up.
RE: RE: art was right that episode was amazing - dabs combine interviews alone
worth the price of admission. wilkins and #39 is tempting but if you look at what was still on the board it's less clear. the most tempting alternative wasnt a player but the trade the rams did giving up 2 seconds for 1, which then pushes that pick below nubin any way. also would have voided the mckinney comp pick next year so not totally free.
there is a reasonable argument both ways but i think an edge bender like burns is just too hard to find elsewhere. also a couple years younger than wilkins. there's a reason he got tagged and had trade value, players like him at that age do not hit the open market.
since last summer it's been clear schoen didnt want to bring barkley back. i hope motor works out and does a good job but i think schoen dropped the ball on that one. the deal barkley's team proposed last year, encompassing the $10m from tag, was fair. ed berry clearly saw the writing on the wall and i thought it was interesting when he asked schoen point blank if they wanted to move on he answered like natalie imbruglia. i give him credit for taking the less comfortable path, but i dont think that's going to provide much respite if barkley gains 2k yards and 10+ tds in philly this year. hopefully that OL implodes without kelce. schoen's entire strategy in that negotiation was reactive vs proactive. i would have liked to see more of daboll's thoughts on that but it seems like the giants put a wall up on that.
Can't operate on the basis on what Philly may do. That's how we ended up with Ben McAdoo.
i wasnt resigning barkley to keep him from philly, i was resigning him last summer bc i thought the price was reasonable for a good player. we have no way of knowing what was doable with the giants (i.e. would he have taken less than he ended up with before hitting open market?) but the way philly did his contract the cap hit is the same this year as singletarys, if they wanted to bring barkley back there were easy ways to do it.
I think Schoen offered him what was a fair deal last year (and based on what we know, it seems like it was). I think he personally got frustrated with Saquon's (and Roc Nation's stance). "Took 10 years off my life." Left a bad taste in his mouth.
Saquon's demeanor ever since his final press interaction seemed to suggest he was done with the Giants. The phone call on the show last night was even worse. Saquon was glad they let him go.
Barkley offered the giants what ended up being a deal a lot lower than what he got, so is it not fair to also say barkley offered the nyg a "fair deal"?
if you worked hard for a company for 6 years and by the end they werent even making offers to keep you because they were torn whether you were worth it, even after you'd done things to make clear you wanted to stay and made them a fair offer, wouldnt you find that frustrating?
schoen is the one with the power to decide whether barkley would stay, not the other way around and it's clear he had no enthusiasm about the prospect of paying a 27 year old rb. as far as the negotiation taking years off schoen's life, suck it up that's the job. how many years off FO lives do we think strahan took back in the day? odell? etc.
It’s clear, he’s more OBJ than Victor Cruz, personality wise, right? Most alph receivers are like that, which was mentioned in last nights episode.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
I'd be shocked if Victor Cruz didn't go to strip clubs.
I’d be even more shocked if the Giants passed on a player because he liked to look at tits.
That's not the concern. It's that he knowingly broke the law to do it. And he already had a gun arrest. Coincidence or pattern? Too early to tell.
So, Giants should avoid drafting anyone who enters a bar or strip club underage?????
We may be 0-17, but listen to our choir boys sing 🤣
I see people going back and forth on this, but I think all Hard Knocks did was confirm what we all thought:
- Mara was the one that wanted Barkley, not Schoen/Daboll
- Barkley claimed we never made him an offer, he lied, it just wasn't as high as the Eagles
- Schoen clearly takes the "modern NFL" stance that RB's shouldn't have a large cap allocation
I wish Barkley well in his next stop and have no hard feelings against him, I also wouldn't have taken that contract to play so close to home. But we need to accept a very simple reality (maybe Mara needs to accept it): We didn't win with Barkley, so rather than double down on a proven loosing strategy, its best to move on to something else.
I see people going back and forth on this, but I think all Hard Knocks did was confirm what we all thought:
- Mara was the one that wanted Barkley, not Schoen/Daboll
- Barkley claimed we never made him an offer, he lied, it just wasn't as high as the Eagles
- Schoen clearly takes the "modern NFL" stance that RB's shouldn't have a large cap allocation
I wish Barkley well in his next stop and have no hard feelings against him, I also wouldn't have taken that contract to play so close to home. But we need to accept a very simple reality (maybe Mara needs to accept it): We didn't win with Barkley, so rather than double down on a proven loosing strategy, its best to move on to something else.
It doesn't bug me, but Saquon clearly lied. It's on tape.
"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
I was thinking the same thing k2! I really wanted Rome because he just seemed like a professional and NOT a diva. Even on the show, that kid is ready to go! Here's to hoping Nabers will not get in trouble in NYC.
this is speculation, but in his interview Rome said all the exact right things if you would have scripted out the right answers perfectly - and i get the feeling with daboll he connects with guys who he views as more real/edgy. barkley was more the former too. i think daboll likes more of the pirate ship ethos.
re nabers there were valid questions w/ him (esp the gun charge on bourbon street). things like that and the strip club are the types of things that come with picking a younger player without the understanding of what its like to have the kind of media attention he's going to get. in interviews he sounds all about football so we have to hope it's just a learning curve.
is a controversial subject on this site, but in the first two episodes, it is very telling to me that the two guys making the biggest push to keep Saquon are Mara and McDonald. (and this is after the edits were approved... makes you wonder what they left out).
i thought rossetti made the strongest push a couple times, and he's both the guy in charge of pro scouting and obviously ended up pretty prescient re the eagles.
is a controversial subject on this site, but in the first two episodes, it is very telling to me that the two guys making the biggest push to keep Saquon are Mara and McDonald. (and this is after the edits were approved... makes you wonder what they left out).
i thought rossetti made the strongest push a couple times, and he's both the guy in charge of pro scouting and obviously ended up pretty prescient re the eagles.
You are correct. Rosetti did too in that one meeting with Schoen in his office.
I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
Schoen should have taken the "test the market" approach with Barkley last year. It would have been better since the RB market was worse last year too. Franchise Jones and decide if you want to match any offer Barkley got.
I admit it would have been more challenging doing that off of 2022.
I agree with Biteymax above... it's clear Mara uses passive aggressive pressure on the GM. I'm not sure Mara would have OKed them letting Saquon test the market last year (players who test the market are usually gone).
I'm coming close to tagging him with the moniker of "Meddling Mara"
This is the essence of the problem. It’s not passive aggression, it’s the boss doing what bosses do when they hire a direct report/decision maker that doesn’t have clear direction and every decision is a series of hallway conversations making sure how much support the boss is prepared to supply.
That embarrassing whining in episode 1 when Mara considered #26 leaving is exhibit “Z”. I’m sure the previous 25 exhibits were similar stomach gurgling over Schoen suggesting they trade him last season or let him similarly test the market.
Schoen is in an extreme “manage up” case study.
Praying they put the Ravens on camera in an offseason. Bisciotti and Ozzie invented the “we love you and want the best for you, but we have a cap to manage so please bring your best deal back and we’ll talk”
is a controversial subject on this site, but in the first two episodes, it is very telling to me that the two guys making the biggest push to keep Saquon are Mara and McDonald. (and this is after the edits were approved... makes you wonder what they left out).
With respect to Giants having a final edit - it’s almost as if they intentionally left in scenes to make it clear the Mara family wanted to pay Saquon. Comes across as setting up Schoen as the bad guy
Maybe I’m over thinking it, but it came across as thinly veiled pettiness to me
I still can’t get past the “what’s our identity on offense without Saquon” from Ep 1.
Our identity with Saquon has been one of the most pathetic offenses in the NFL. How is that something to cling to?
I think Schoen offered him what was a fair deal last year (and based on what we know, it seems like it was). I think he personally got frustrated with Saquon's (and Roc Nation's stance). "Took 10 years off my life." Left a bad taste in his mouth.
Saquon's demeanor ever since his final press interaction seemed to suggest he was done with the Giants. The phone call on the show last night was even worse. Saquon was glad they let him go.
Barkley offered the giants what ended up being a deal a lot lower than what he got, so is it not fair to also say barkley offered the nyg a "fair deal"?
if you worked hard for a company for 6 years and by the end they werent even making offers to keep you because they were torn whether you were worth it, even after you'd done things to make clear you wanted to stay and made them a fair offer, wouldnt you find that frustrating?
The difference here though is that since Barkley was drafted, the Giants paid him more money than any other in the NFL got paid, except for McCaffrey and Elliot. Because he was the #2 overall pick, Barkley's rookie contract was as big or bigger than practically every other RB's 2nd contract. That Barkley should be "frustrated" that the Giants paid nearly $49 million is not reasonable.
And let's be real, Barkley didn't deserve a contract comparable to McCaffrey's 2nd contract because Barkley is not as good a player. And Elliot's 2nd contract is a warning, not something to follow.
My guess here, and why we are seeing more about their Wilkins interest than Burns. The preference was Burns, but used signing Wilkins as leverage. And need to show that in the episodes the Wilkins love was real, and wasn’t just a leverage ploy.
They probably liked Wilkins. But obviously not more than Burns since they could have signed him for less than Burns, and kept the draft capital. But I think the threat of Wilkins is how we went from two 1’s to “at least two twos” to a two and five.
i think this is probably exactly right. having his college teammate dex and having previously had him paired with a big cap chunk to leonard williams probably made it a pretty strong argument.
for all the folks who dug their heels in and refused to watch because they are missing some grade A content and getting some fascinating glimpses into our processes while clarifying or dispelling rumors from the time. And then they miss out on the "water cooler" conversation afterwards. I would watch 100 episodes of this...
The difference here though is that since Barkley was drafted, the Giants paid him more money than any other in the NFL got paid, except for McCaffrey and Elliot. Because he was the #2 overall pick, Barkley's rookie contract was as big or bigger than practically every other RB's 2nd contract. That Barkley should be "frustrated" that the Giants paid nearly $49 million is not reasonable.
And let's be real, Barkley didn't deserve a contract comparable to McCaffrey's 2nd contract because Barkley is not as good a player. And Elliot's 2nd contract is a warning, not something to follow.
what the giants chose to pay barkley in the past (on a slot rookie deal) has no bearing on what his value was past that contract. last year the giants tagged him at 10m gtd for 1 year, the negotiation started there.
and barkley's contract ask of the giants last year was not a CMC deal. it was less than he got from philly, which also wasnt a CMC deal.
but the pre-brief between Schoen and the PR department was gold.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Yup, I loved that. I worked at a large media company in a past life and I was around some of the bigwigs sitting with the PR team and prepping them for questions and how to answer/evade/redirect.
I'm not surprised by this, because when Schoen says he doesn't listen to sports radio, I believe him. So he needed to be coached up on the conversations on twitter. It also gives you a perspective if Schoen or Daboll ever go off script or get stunned by something, you can tell that it wasn't on their prep and they have to think on their feet.
LT set the bar highest for off field antics, but both BP and BB knew LT was not at choir practice in his off time but on Sundays, LT, was unstoppable….let’s hope Nabers can similarly deliver. They should at least advise the young receiver there are better uses for his stacks of monies than just tossing it in the air, aka private room lap dances, or investable opportunities. “Rumble young man….Rumble!”
for all the folks who dug their heels in and refused to watch because they are missing some grade A content and getting some fascinating glimpses into our processes while clarifying or dispelling rumors from the time. And then they miss out on the "water cooler" conversation afterwards. I would watch 100 episodes of this...
but the pre-brief between Schoen and the PR department was gold.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Yup, I loved that. I worked at a large media company in a past life and I was around some of the bigwigs sitting with the PR team and prepping them for questions and how to answer/evade/redirect.
I'm not surprised by this, because when Schoen says he doesn't listen to sports radio, I believe him. So he needed to be coached up on the conversations on twitter. It also gives you a perspective if Schoen or Daboll ever go off script or get stunned by something, you can tell that it wasn't on their prep and they have to think on their feet.
The jokes about X/Twitter were funny... I wonder if that PR guy reads BBI. (he he he)
I see people going back and forth on this, but I think all Hard Knocks did was confirm what we all thought:
- Mara was the one that wanted Barkley, not Schoen/Daboll
- Barkley claimed we never made him an offer, he lied, it just wasn't as high as the Eagles
- Schoen clearly takes the "modern NFL" stance that RB's shouldn't have a large cap allocation
I can't tell if Schoen finally had an epiphany on that or it's always been his position. Because there were signs/facts that Schoen would have signed Barkley to a multi-year deal, and the differences between his position and Team Barkley's wasn't huge. And I don't think that would have been a good outcome.
There were a lot of competing interests at Giants Way HQ on Barkley. Way too many people, especially the family, are stuck in the 80s with their view of the RB position and love the idea of marketing SB.
"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
Daniels was saying that he is used to playing for a program with enormous expectations.
And I could easily argue LSU has the highest expectations in the country. If you don't agree, you don't understand the football culture in Louisiana...
what the giants chose to pay barkley in the past (on a slot rookie deal) has no bearing on what his value was past that contract. last year the giants tagged him at 10m gtd for 1 year, the negotiation started there.
and barkley's contract ask of the giants last year was not a CMC deal. it was less than he got from philly, which also wasnt a CMC deal.
Umm, what? From PFT:
Quote:
Per a league source with knowledge of the situation, the Giants extended an offer to Barkley worth $13 million per year, including $26 million over the first two years. The offer was made before the deadline for applying the franchise tag, with the express message from the team that, if the tag were applied to Barkley, the offer would be pulled. Barkley was looking for Christian McCaffrey money, we’re told; that’s roughly $16 million per year.
New York City market for professional sports is a different ball game. Daniels said - well I played in Death Valley and I talk to my family about it.
Best answer - IMO - would have been - I understand that playing for the New York Giants brings high expectations and I have high expectations for myself. If we are losing, I'm going to do the best I can to correct it, be a leader, address things head on, expectations are high. I hate losing.
Instead, he said well I played college ball for LSU.
Again - I guess it's an OK answer. Just somewhat of a cop out IMO. These college kids at big programs are given every single thing to be able to succeed.
Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
I have no issue with that answer. The pressure playing for most SEC teams is not really different than playing in NYC, which gets way overblown, especially the Giants.
seems to have scrubbed the famous picture of Osi Umenyiora cavorting with the half-naked strippers.
It's not going to a club (I mean how many dudes have NOT done that) or even an image that's the problem. I have no problem with him doing that at all. But filming yourself like that with a wad of cash and having it rain $$ bills and putting it on Tik Tok/Instagram? Probably not something everyone would do.... lol
It seems like others in the organization didn't agree with Rosetti's stance, if they were in fact seriously considering signing Wilkins.
I'm still unsure of the clinical definition of difference-maker, but I'd hope any player they contemplating pursuing in the 100M+ range met that criteria.
So now we're not just twisting facts, but reality itself?
Rossetti said Wilkins was a "very good player" but not a "difference making pass rusher".
The team spent more money and more picks on what kind of player in Brian Burns again? was i hearing things or did the bowen describe him as an "elite pass rusher" in yesterday's episode? if bowen felt the same way about wilkins, why didn't they sign him for less and keep the pick? why didnt miami tag him and trade him like carolina did burns?
It is clear that they wanted either Maye, Harrison or Nabers with their first pick. Getting Nabers was the smart pick. I still maintain that JJM was subterfuge to try to get the Pats to take the Michigan quarterback which might have enabled Maye to slide to Schoen. Kudos for trying, but Kraft didn't bite. I agree that Odunze probably wins the pre-draft "character" stakes, but Nabers is clearly the better receiver. Like LT or Laramy Tunsil or Micah Parsons, you have to err on the side of talent first, character second. Mainly because it is virtually impossible to accurately assess character in advance. As the Giants have proven repeatedly with Apple, Baker, Toney et al...
On Barkley, the mistakes were made last year. First, they had to tag DJ and offer SB a contract which would have simply guaranteed the money from two franchise tags. Which is exactly what the Eagles just did. Instead Schoen played hard ball with Barkley over absolute peanuts while simultaneously awarding DJ the most undeserved and massive overpayment to any player in Giants history. And then, when the 2023 season was clearly over at the trade deadline, Schoen had to trade SB. Not only to get some value for him, but also to at least try to control where SB's future would be. I am certain they could have gotten a day two pick for him from a team like Baltimore or Buffalo, which might have averted his landing with our most hated rival. That ending phone call was nothing short of brutal.
So after two episodes I come away exactly where I thought I would, which of course may be confirmation bias. Mara meddles, but does so in a passive aggressive manner. So this organization will always need a strong and competent GM to ensure that decisions are made with an eye on winning championships, not on appeasing the owner's agenda. Is Schoen that guy? The jury continues to be out. He has made some good personnel moves - pulling off the Burns trade chief among them. But his handling of DJ and Saquon are nothing short of an epic disaster and will always overshadow anything he does until this team wins a championship again. Daboll continues to look like the real deal and exactly what you want in a head coach. But can he overcome such brutal legacy head winds? Time will tell.
Odunze's answers were also canned. He was impressive because he knew exactly what to say to impress. (Think of how you interview when you interview).
Odunze has top intangibles, but let's be honest here, he was saying what he knew what he had to say.
That's still a sign of preparation and taking every part of the draft process seriously. Odunze crushed the combine on and off the field. He did everything he could to raise his stock. That speaks to me on the amount of work he will put in day in and day out for his career.
what the giants chose to pay barkley in the past (on a slot rookie deal) has no bearing on what his value was past that contract. last year the giants tagged him at 10m gtd for 1 year, the negotiation started there.
and barkley's contract ask of the giants last year was not a CMC deal. it was less than he got from philly, which also wasnt a CMC deal.
Umm, what? From PFT:
Quote:
Per a league source with knowledge of the situation, the Giants extended an offer to Barkley worth $13 million per year, including $26 million over the first two years. The offer was made before the deadline for applying the franchise tag, with the express message from the team that, if the tag were applied to Barkley, the offer would be pulled. Barkley was looking for Christian McCaffrey money, we’re told; that’s roughly $16 million per year.
Link - ( New Window )
Mike Garafolo and Ryan Dunleavy both reported that to be incorrect and reported the specific details of what Barkley was looking for.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
New: In the end, #Giants and Saquon Barkley couldn't bridge a gap of less than $2 million in both average annual salary and guarantees over the first 2 years, sources said. Both sides felt they budged enough and now it feels like a big risk for both https://nypost.com/2023/07/17/saquon-barkley-giants-cant-reach-deal-ahead-of-contract-deadline/ #nyg
Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The staggering part of the #Giants and Saquon Barkley being unable to reach a deal is how close they were.
@rydunleavy’s reporting is in line with what I’ve heard regarding the spread between the sides. It seemed close enough to bridge as the deadline drew near. Didn’t happen.
"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
New York City market for professional sports is a different ball game. Daniels said - well I played in Death Valley and I talk to my family about it.
Best answer - IMO - would have been - I understand that playing for the New York Giants brings high expectations and I have high expectations for myself. If we are losing, I'm going to do the best I can to correct it, be a leader, address things head on, expectations are high. I hate losing.
Instead, he said well I played college ball for LSU.
Again - I guess it's an OK answer. Just somewhat of a cop out IMO. These college kids at big programs are given every single thing to be able to succeed.
I don't really care about the perfect/ideal answer to sound good. I'm more interested in getting the most talented people. And as I have mentioned many times, I don't buy this myth that the NY market is so challenging that only certain players can survive. That expired a long time ago in my view. If you have a good PR and coaching staff, that can be managed for nearly anyone.
And it's a bit bothersome to me that Schoen is drinking that Kool-Aid. Daboll isn't...
It is clear that they wanted either Maye, Harrison or Nabers with their first pick. Getting Nabers was the smart pick. I still maintain that JJM was subterfuge to try to get the Pats to take the Michigan quarterback which might have enabled Maye to slide to Schoen. Kudos for trying, but Kraft didn't bite. I agree that Odunze probably wins the pre-draft "character" stakes, but Nabers is clearly the better receiver. Like LT or Laramy Tunsil or Micah Parsons, you have to err on the side of talent first, character second. Mainly because it is virtually impossible to accurately assess character in advance. As the Giants have proven repeatedly with Apple, Baker, Toney et al...
On Barkley, the mistakes were made last year. First, they had to tag DJ and offer SB a contract which would have simply guaranteed the money from two franchise tags. Which is exactly what the Eagles just did. Instead Schoen played hard ball with Barkley over absolute peanuts while simultaneously awarding DJ the most undeserved and massive overpayment to any player in Giants history. And then, when the 2023 season was clearly over at the trade deadline, Schoen had to trade SB. Not only to get some value for him, but also to at least try to control where SB's future would be. I am certain they could have gotten a day two pick for him from a team like Baltimore or Buffalo, which might have averted his landing with our most hated rival. That ending phone call was nothing short of brutal.
So after two episodes I come away exactly where I thought I would, which of course may be confirmation bias. Mara meddles, but does so in a passive aggressive manner. So this organization will always need a strong and competent GM to ensure that decisions are made with an eye on winning championships, not on appeasing the owner's agenda. Is Schoen that guy? The jury continues to be out. He has made some good personnel moves - pulling off the Burns trade chief among them. But his handling of DJ and Saquon are nothing short of an epic disaster and will always overshadow anything he does until this team wins a championship again. Daboll continues to look like the real deal and exactly what you want in a head coach. But can he overcome such brutal legacy head winds? Time will tell.
"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
at #39 it ended up there were no obvious edges left. the players who went from #39 to the Nubin pick at #47 were:
Braden Fiske (pick traded to rams for #52 and next years 2nd)
Dejean
Kool-Aid
Lassiter
Max Melton
Jackson Powers-Johnson
Edgerin Cooper
Jonathan Brooks
so im not even sure they wouldnt have just taken Nubin at #39.
the miss was the Rams trade because they gave up big value to move up 13 slots, but that wasnt predictable ahead of time.
also if you sign Wilkins as a FA as opposed to a Burns trade, you lose the McKinney comp pick which will probably be around pick #140 next year. Which isn't nothing.
very close call either way, either was a good player to add but i prefer the 2 years younger edge rusher bc i think thats the harder thing to find.
It is clear that they wanted either Maye, Harrison or Nabers with their first pick. Getting Nabers was the smart pick. I still maintain that JJM was subterfuge to try to get the Pats to take the Michigan quarterback which might have enabled Maye to slide to Schoen. Kudos for trying, but Kraft didn't bite. I agree that Odunze probably wins the pre-draft "character" stakes, but Nabers is clearly the better receiver. Like LT or Laramy Tunsil or Micah Parsons, you have to err on the side of talent first, character second. Mainly because it is virtually impossible to accurately assess character in advance. As the Giants have proven repeatedly with Apple, Baker, Toney et al...
On Barkley, the mistakes were made last year. First, they had to tag DJ and offer SB a contract which would have simply guaranteed the money from two franchise tags. Which is exactly what the Eagles just did. Instead Schoen played hard ball with Barkley over absolute peanuts while simultaneously awarding DJ the most undeserved and massive overpayment to any player in Giants history. And then, when the 2023 season was clearly over at the trade deadline, Schoen had to trade SB. Not only to get some value for him, but also to at least try to control where SB's future would be. I am certain they could have gotten a day two pick for him from a team like Baltimore or Buffalo, which might have averted his landing with our most hated rival. That ending phone call was nothing short of brutal.
So after two episodes I come away exactly where I thought I would, which of course may be confirmation bias. Mara meddles, but does so in a passive aggressive manner. So this organization will always need a strong and competent GM to ensure that decisions are made with an eye on winning championships, not on appeasing the owner's agenda. Is Schoen that guy? The jury continues to be out. He has made some good personnel moves - pulling off the Burns trade chief among them. But his handling of DJ and Saquon are nothing short of an epic disaster and will always overshadow anything he does until this team wins a championship again. Daboll continues to look like the real deal and exactly what you want in a head coach. But can he overcome such brutal legacy head winds? Time will tell.
Nate Solder and Kenny Golloday say hold my beer.
I've been preaching for two years they mishandled the entire Barkley situation. They should have dealt him, and there were offers.
but the pre-brief between Schoen and the PR department was gold.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Eric Could you imagine what those pre-briefs must have looked like with that clown Gettleman? Or maybe they started after that "Rome wasn't built in a day dahlin" debacle because they were like holy shit we have to hire someone to talk to these GM's beforehand.
but the pre-brief between Schoen and the PR department was gold.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Eric Could you imagine what those pre-briefs must have looked like with that clown Gettleman? Or maybe they started after that "Rome wasn't built in a day dahlin" debacle because they were like holy shit we have to hire someone to talk to these GM's beforehand.
He probably didn't think he needed them.
What caught my eye was it wasn't just one guy in the room. Anyone who has worked in a government/corporate environment with a PR department knows the drill.
It seems like others in the organization didn't agree with Rosetti's stance, if they were in fact seriously considering signing Wilkins.
I'm still unsure of the clinical definition of difference-maker, but I'd hope any player they contemplating pursuing in the 100M+ range met that criteria.
So now we're not just twisting facts, but reality itself?
Rossetti said Wilkins was a "very good player" but not a "difference making pass rusher".
The team spent more money and more picks on what kind of player in Brian Burns again? was i hearing things or did the bowen describe him as an "elite pass rusher" in yesterday's episode? if bowen felt the same way about wilkins, why didn't they sign him for less and keep the pick? why didnt miami tag him and trade him like carolina did burns?
I don't have the ability to divine intangible criteria at the accuracy level you do.
I think it's perfectly obvious Wilkins and Burns both fit in that difference-making pass rusher designation. In fact, I hope they both did if they were considering paying either 100M+. Burns is a better, more consistent player and pass rusher. He'll make a bigger difference, but Wilkins would have made a demonstrable difference as a player and pass rushers as well.
I think the nature of this whole disagreement is that you define difference-making as a more exclusive echelon where I think it's a more generic term. And that Rosetti's comment was a bit of a throw away silly observation in the moment, not an official designation.
And I say this in total sincerity, with no sarcasm intended, maybe you could spin up a color coded hierarchy of what words describe what types of players. So then I don't offend your definitions.
I've been preaching for two years they mishandled the entire Barkley situation. They should have dealt him, and there were offers.
Barkley should have been dealt three times. Once in the Gettleman Era and twice with Schoen.
I thought it was hilarious in one of those staff meetings (E1) that they were wondering if anyone would trade for Barkley in the offseason if tagged. I got the clear sense that some of the nitwits think Barkley is one of the great players in the history of the Giants, if not the NFL.
There are some dumb people walking the halls of Giants Way with big titles who should never set foot in a room where the discussion is football personnel. Stick to charity events.
but the official podcast has an interview with Daboll. Not as interesting as the show and mainly acts as a recap, but worth a listen. Hard Knocks Podcast - ( New Window )
It can’t be more clear how the Barkley situation played out the past 18+ months. Mara and Co desperately wanted him to be the face of the franchise for the next 25 years, and already ordering the ring of honor signage. And willing to resign him at any cost.
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
The frustration of dealing with Barkley, calling his Giant for Life bluff, and pressure from ownership all couldn't be more clear IMO
This is how I view it also.
I think Schoen just ran out of time trying to juggle Barkley and Jones last year (with probably-not-quite-a-Mara-mandate-but-close to keep both), preferred to sign Barkley to a 3y deal (that would have functioned as basically a 2y deal with an option) and tag DJ, and then Barkley held firm at a number that Schoen didn't like, which forced an 11th hour pivot resulting in Barkley getting the tag and DJ getting the bag.
I've been preaching for two years they mishandled the entire Barkley situation. They should have dealt him, and there were offers.
Barkley should have been dealt three times. Once in the Gettleman Era and twice with Schoen.
I thought it was hilarious in one of those staff meetings (E1) that they were wondering if anyone would trade for Barkley in the offseason if tagged. I got the clear sense that some of the nitwits think Barkley is one of the great players in the history of the Giants, if not the NFL.
There are some dumb people walking the halls of Giants Way with big titles who should never set foot in a room where the discussion is football personnel. Stick to charity events.
I have no problem with people pushing back and asking questions. You don't want group think. That's why I actually didn't mind McDonald's comments in Ep. 1.
However, it's very clear that Mara's wishes at the very least, have to be danced around with. The response by some will be, "he has every right, he's the owner." My response to that is Mara is a lot like George Costanza. Every instinct he has is wrong.
assuming Barkley stays healthy (a big if), he's going to have one of his best seasons behind that line in Philly. Mara's reaction to that is going to be as predictable as it will be wrong.
Imagine entering an offseason thinking you have to keep both Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley, and making contract/franchise tag decisions around that premise.
Imagine entering an offseason thinking you have to keep both Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley, and making contract/franchise tag decisions around that premise.
Brutal.
The playoff season made things difficult on a number of different fronts. Jones was still in that no-man's land. They gambled and got burned.
"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
As a UFA, Wilkins was actually a more realistic option. Stroke the right check and he's a Giant.
Burns was more desirable, positionally and individual talent-wise, especially at similar dollars. But his availability/affordability was questionable till it wasn't;
Hopefully the next episode shows how they got Burn's price within reason.
Imagine entering an offseason thinking you have to keep both Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley, and making contract/franchise tag decisions around that premise.
Brutal.
The playoff season made things difficult on a number of different fronts. Jones was still in that no-man's land. They gambled and got burned.
It is clear that they wanted either Maye, Harrison or Nabers with their first pick. Getting Nabers was the smart pick. I still maintain that JJM was subterfuge to try to get the Pats to take the Michigan quarterback which might have enabled Maye to slide to Schoen. Kudos for trying, but Kraft didn't bite. I agree that Odunze probably wins the pre-draft "character" stakes, but Nabers is clearly the better receiver. Like LT or Laramy Tunsil or Micah Parsons, you have to err on the side of talent first, character second. Mainly because it is virtually impossible to accurately assess character in advance. As the Giants have proven repeatedly with Apple, Baker, Toney et al...
On Barkley, the mistakes were made last year. First, they had to tag DJ and offer SB a contract which would have simply guaranteed the money from two franchise tags. Which is exactly what the Eagles just did. Instead Schoen played hard ball with Barkley over absolute peanuts while simultaneously awarding DJ the most undeserved and massive overpayment to any player in Giants history. And then, when the 2023 season was clearly over at the trade deadline, Schoen had to trade SB. Not only to get some value for him, but also to at least try to control where SB's future would be. I am certain they could have gotten a day two pick for him from a team like Baltimore or Buffalo, which might have averted his landing with our most hated rival. That ending phone call was nothing short of brutal.
So after two episodes I come away exactly where I thought I would, which of course may be confirmation bias. Mara meddles, but does so in a passive aggressive manner. So this organization will always need a strong and competent GM to ensure that decisions are made with an eye on winning championships, not on appeasing the owner's agenda. Is Schoen that guy? The jury continues to be out. He has made some good personnel moves - pulling off the Burns trade chief among them. But his handling of DJ and Saquon are nothing short of an epic disaster and will always overshadow anything he does until this team wins a championship again. Daboll continues to look like the real deal and exactly what you want in a head coach. But can he overcome such brutal legacy head winds? Time will tell.
Multiple errors were made last offseason that the team is trying to make up for this offseason.
assuming Barkley stays healthy (a big if), he's going to have one of his best seasons behind that line in Philly. Mara's reaction to that is going to be as predictable as it will be wrong.
If Barkley has a big year and Jones shits the bed, Schoen and Daboll might as well start packing their bags.
Not a lot of talent around him every season. Especially at the OL. That's frustrating as was already being tagged imv.
There was a poster (insider) about a week before the draft who said JS wanted the QB in the draft and BD the WR. BD understands winning matters and things change fast if you don't win enough imv. I think JS feels more secure.
Mara does have his favorites. If JS didn't want the longer commitment to DJ his job is to make the case against it imv.
Barkley conversation toward the end on the phone with Schoen is really fascinating. Barkley's tone seemed odd, or distant, or maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
He was definitely butt hurt at what the offers had been. Good for Schoen. Don’t pay for a 27 year old RB when your team is full of holes.
LOL, SB thinks he got booed at the Knicks game, wait until he plays at Metlife next year.
Florio works for a corporate media giant and he is surprised about a pre-brief?
LOL
My take is he thinks journalism should be easy and if you ask a question people should provide all the details you want. You shouldn't have to 'work' to uncover information. It's a ridiculous stance.
The best outcome was Philly gets paid good guaranteed money and chance to play for a proven winner I don't blame him but he did turn down a solid offer schoen moved on I don't blame him like to learn more about McKinney dealings he's the one I wanted to keep
what the giants chose to pay barkley in the past (on a slot rookie deal) has no bearing on what his value was past that contract. last year the giants tagged him at 10m gtd for 1 year, the negotiation started there.
and barkley's contract ask of the giants last year was not a CMC deal. it was less than he got from philly, which also wasnt a CMC deal.
Umm, what? From PFT:
Quote:
Per a league source with knowledge of the situation, the Giants extended an offer to Barkley worth $13 million per year, including $26 million over the first two years. The offer was made before the deadline for applying the franchise tag, with the express message from the team that, if the tag were applied to Barkley, the offer would be pulled. Barkley was looking for Christian McCaffrey money, we’re told; that’s roughly $16 million per year.
Link - ( New Window )
Mike Garafolo and Ryan Dunleavy both reported that to be incorrect and reported the specific details of what Barkley was looking for.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
New: In the end, #Giants and Saquon Barkley couldn't bridge a gap of less than $2 million in both average annual salary and guarantees over the first 2 years, sources said. Both sides felt they budged enough and now it feels like a big risk for both https://nypost.com/2023/07/17/saquon-barkley-giants-cant-reach-deal-ahead-of-contract-deadline/ #nyg
Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The staggering part of the #Giants and Saquon Barkley being unable to reach a deal is how close they were.
@rydunleavy’s reporting is in line with what I’ve heard regarding the spread between the sides. It seemed close enough to bridge as the deadline drew near. Didn’t happen.
I am sure you know that amount per year doesn't mean anything. It's the guaranteed money that matters. And I don't buy that the difference in guaranteed money was only a couple million dollars. After Barkley signed with the Eagles, he said he got what he wanted by not signing with the Giants in 2023 i.e. $36 million guaranteed ($10 million from Giants, $26 million from Eagles).
McCaffrey's 2020 contract extension only had $30 million guaranteed (per sportrac and OTC). Now Barkley eclipsed that.
Actions speak louder to me than what Barkley's agents told Ryan Dunleavy.
Rosetti's comment was a bit of a throw away not an official designation.
no shit? how can you not see that the side of this argument in the wrong is the group most aggressively making a mountain out of a molehill in the "not good for rossetti" thread as if it were anything other than the shitty clickbait journalism it was blowing a brief "generic" comment out of proportion?
am i crazy or did you imply in this thread the organization's interest in wilkins was some kind negative reflection on rossetti when his original "throw away" comments very plainly included his belief of wilkins to be a very good player?
so which is it? was his 1 "generic" comment out of a who knows how long meeting "a throwaway"? or was it the negative reflection on him the clickbait you've been choking on for the last week and continue to be implying?
Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
I have no issue with that answer. The pressure playing for most SEC teams is not really different than playing in NYC, which gets way overblown, especially the Giants.
Agree with this. At LSU expectations are high and the fna base is beyond passionate. For the Giants, expectations are low and the fan base quickly focuses on the Yankees when the Giants suck...at least that portion of NY that gives a crap about sports.
When the Giants lose fans don't go to the coaches house and put "for sale" signs on his lawn. I would argue there is much more pressure to win at OSU, LSU, Alabama, etc., than there is to win with the NY Giants.
RE: Brandon Brown is 100% getting hired away next cycle
I am sure you know that amount per year doesn't mean anything. It's the guaranteed money that matters. And I don't buy that the difference in guaranteed money was only a couple million dollars. After Barkley signed with the Eagles, he said he got what he wanted by not signing with the Giants in 2023 i.e. $36 million guaranteed ($10 million from Giants, $26 million from Eagles).
McCaffrey's 2020 contract extension only had $30 million guaranteed (per sportrac and OTC). Now Barkley eclipsed that.
Actions speak louder to me than what Barkley's agents told Ryan Dunleavy.
it is absolutely incorrect and misleading to combine the 2 different contracts from different teams in the way that you are. this was the reported ask last year and it was clearly less than what CMC got in 2020 even with a cap that was 25m+ smaller. if you to believe florio over dunleavy/garafolo that's your right but their respective track records arent on your side.
Quote:
The Giants’ final three-year offer was $11 million per year with guarantees between $22 million and $23 million, multiple sources told the Post.
Those numbers were all within $1 million to $2 million on both ends of Barkley’s reduced asking price.
Either way, the numbers were close enough that common ground seems easy to find with incentives over the first two years, but both sides felt that they had budged as much as they could.
Barkley, 26, previously turned down a contract worth $13 million per year with $19.5 million guaranteed, sources said, because he is guaranteed $22.2 million if he plays on back-to-back tags in 2023 and 2024.
Multiple independent agents described $19.5 million as a non-starter.
Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
I have no issue with that answer. The pressure playing for most SEC teams is not really different than playing in NYC, which gets way overblown, especially the Giants.
Agree with this. At LSU expectations are high and the fna base is beyond passionate. For the Giants, expectations are low and the fan base quickly focuses on the Yankees when the Giants suck...at least that portion of NY that gives a crap about sports.
When the Giants lose fans don't go to the coaches house and put "for sale" signs on his lawn. I would argue there is much more pressure to win at OSU, LSU, Alabama, etc., than there is to win with the NY Giants.
100%. Every single LSU game is in a fully packed stadium of over 100K people, Giants stadium is barely ever at capacity and when it is it’s not even heavily Giants fans but always a lot of visitors. It’s overrated. SEC schools and everyone within the state are nuts about college sports more passionate than NFL fans are.
and after a while in the midwest, have lived for the last several years in the south.
College football generates way more passion than NFL football, and way more media scrutiny for high profile teams. In the Northeast I don't think that distinction is appreciated.
Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
I have no issue with that answer. The pressure playing for most SEC teams is not really different than playing in NYC, which gets way overblown, especially the Giants.
Death Valley is ASU, not LSU. I have to agree with Ryan here. I can see the argument that SEC is a tough place to play (although, compared to NYC?), but ASU isn’t even the most popular program in its own state. And I loved Daniels in the draft.
and man I loved it! I was totally geeking out on the QB interviews, the pressure these kids face just in these interviews is incredible. The Xavier Worthy bit was fun to watch.
I love Nabers, and I think each of the top 3 WR’s is going to be great, but Odunze was an impressive interview. What I liked about the 1st episode was that it really appeared that Schoen was calling the shots, but a few of the scenes were clearly stage managed. That wasn’t the case in ep 2, and it’s clear that JS is calling the shots. Again, no guarantee that he’ll succeed, but at least he’s allowed to do his job.
best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
it is absolutely incorrect and misleading to combine the 2 different contracts from different teams in the way that you are. this was the reported ask last year and it was clearly less than what CMC got in 2020 even with a cap that was 25m+ smaller. if you to believe florio over dunleavy/garafolo that's your right but their respective track records arent on your side.
Dude, it's not me who is looking at the two different contracts combined, it is literally what Barkely did after signing with the Eagles. Initial reports in 2023 were that Barkley wanted McCaffrey level money, and after he signed with the Eagles he said he got what he wanted by not signing the Giants 2023 offer.
My point is only to show that Schoen that didn't screw up by not signing Barkley. Barkley wanted more guaranteed money than what the Giants were willing to offer, and rightfully so IMO. And based on what Barkley got and his statements (looking for the quote, can't find it now) it was a lot more than a couple million.
best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
Ummmm... no.
The only reason to even have that discussion was to nab a QB. I don't think the Giants were overly optimistic about the Pats moving out of that pick, but they clearly explored the option.
And even in public pressers, their support of Jones during this process was lukewarm at best.
Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
I have no issue with that answer. The pressure playing for most SEC teams is not really different than playing in NYC, which gets way overblown, especially the Giants.
Agree with this. At LSU expectations are high and the fna base is beyond passionate. For the Giants, expectations are low and the fan base quickly focuses on the Yankees when the Giants suck...at least that portion of NY that gives a crap about sports.
When the Giants lose fans don't go to the coaches house and put "for sale" signs on his lawn. I would argue there is much more pressure to win at OSU, LSU, Alabama, etc., than there is to win with the NY Giants.
100%. Every single LSU game is in a fully packed stadium of over 100K people, Giants stadium is barely ever at capacity and when it is it’s not even heavily Giants fans but always a lot of visitors. It’s overrated. SEC schools and everyone within the state are nuts about college sports more passionate than NFL fans are.
Playing at home at front of those fans is scaRY? QBs dropping back at LSU at start most home game are favored by how much? Unless they play Bama or Georgia they can make sandwich back there.
Doug Rush
@TheDougRush
A few takeaways from the second episode of HBO Hard Knocks: Offseason with the New York Giants:
***SPOILERS*** if you didn’t watch tonight’s episode, you might want to skip this if do you intend to watch it.
•Brian Daboll definitely seemed to really like Malik Nabers even before they spoke with him at the Combine. He really liked that he hates losing more than he likes winning.
•Daboll and Joe Schoen also seemed to really like Drake Maye when they asked him to dissect a certain pass play with the terminology.
•Joe Schoen seemed interested in wanting to move up to No. 3 in the 2024 NFL Draft and went directly to the Patriots to tell them that if they were thinking about moving out of the pick, to call them.
•The Giants, especially Daboll and defensive coordinator Shane Bowen, were really high on Tyler Nubin, so it’s not a surprise that the Giants targeted him in the second round with Xavier McKinney leaving as a free agent.
•After the initial talk he had with Panthers GM Dan Morgan that planted the seed, the idea for trading for Brian Burns was definitely in Joe Schoen’s head and he was floating trade packages to his people to gauge their opinions. He seemed more interested in trading for Burns over pursuing Christian Wilkins as a free agent.
•Schoen talks with both Saquon Barkley and his agent to mention how they’re going to let him test the market and to come back to them to see if he still wants to be a Giant, which Saquon said he appreciated. Schoen said he wanted a chance to match a possible offer if one was made to him.
•Schoen seemed like he did want Saquon back, but at his price and he likely felt the running back market might not be there in free agency. But given the contract he got in March, that clearly wasn’t the case.
•The next episode previews the continued negotiations heading into free agency between the Giants and Saquon; the last thing mentioned in the preview was Schoen saying: “I offered him a 3-year deal giving him $12.5 million APY (average per year) and $25 million guaranteed.”
•Saquon’s deal with the Eagles: 3 years, $37.5M ($12.5M APY) with $26M guaranteed.
With that said, definitely can’t wait to see how the next episode goes.
Rosetti's comment was a bit of a throw away not an official designation.
so which is it? was his 1 "generic" comment out of a who knows how long meeting "a throwaway"? or was it the negative reflection on him the clickbait you've been choking on for the last week and continue to be implying?
I think you have your head so far up your own ass, and are so thoroughly choking on the undigested fragments of PFF screen shots you subsist on, that you missed that my posts on this thread were sarcastic and in good humor.
I also think Rosetti made a silly comment, that wasn't factually accurate as it relates to 2023.
I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
and enlightening as the show is. As a Giant fan for 60 years there is so much I want to discuss about past being prologue.
I don't have the time now. I did try to quick read the entire thread. I'm going to read it again and watch the show a 2nd time.
I would like to point out one thing I read on this thread that I think is incorrect.
Quote:
There wasn't a Mara anywhere to be found at the combine. The concept that old man Mara is making any consequential decision on player personnel is a joke. Schoen is running this team.
I'm not sure who said there was no Mara in the room at the combine. I assume they meant John since for Hard Knocks purposes Chris Mara doesn't seem to exist on or off camera and it's obvious that Tim McDonnell was there. Watch at 13:30 when the player interviews begin in the suite. Is that not John Mara in the light grey sweater (sitting next to the woman in back sweatshirt with glasses) reading the Giants scouting binder they showed earlier in the episode? He's back on camera in the same spot at 21:07 too.
The Mara family management style is exactly what I expected and believed about the way the Giants have done football business since Ernie retired and ended the George Young structure. There are so many examples and parallels to the way Wellington ran the team it's like bad deja vu all over again for me.
best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
Ummmm... no.
The only reason to even have that discussion was to nab a QB. I don't think the Giants were overly optimistic about the Pats moving out of that pick, but they clearly explored the option.
And even in public pressers, their support of Jones during this process was lukewarm at best.
Context Eric. Patriots needed a QB. Negotiating 101. They have ALL the leverage. You want that pick, you gotta make an offer, I am shocked you don’t understand negotiating better than that. No way the Patriots let anything out of the bag first. Understand, any team that wanted 3 was going to have to come to the Patriots, that deal wasn’t happening any other way. GMEN desperately wanted a WR, I bet we find out they pick Daniel’s choice.
Rosetti's comment was a bit of a throw away not an official designation.
so which is it? was his 1 "generic" comment out of a who knows how long meeting "a throwaway"? or was it the negative reflection on him the clickbait you've been choking on for the last week and continue to be implying?
I think you have your head so far up your own ass, and are so thoroughly choking on the undigested fragments of PFF screen shots you subsist on, that you missed that my posts on this thread were sarcastic and in good humor.
I also think Rosetti made a silly comment, that wasn't factually accurate as it relates to 2023.
I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
it's a little weird to project that these discussions = ruining a day, but if that's how you view it id maybe suggest you consider a healthier form of entertainment?
they did make an offer. It was widely reported. Teams don't make firm offers until right before the draft, and often during the draft.
First…Does reported equal truth? Or only when it supports Eric’s point? I disagree it was widely reported and if it was. What was they offer made?
A bunch of national and local reporters posted that the Giants offered multiple picks to move up. The Patriots also confirmed the Giants were one of the teams they were talking to on draft day.
I'm not sure why you are taking umbrage with this.
boy does this thread look stupid now... Not good for Rosetti - ( New Window )
There will likely be some of the comments on this very thread that won't look good by the end of this series as well.
We all need to remember these are small glimpses of a months long process, that we're not even half way through yet. To make any definitive statement based upon 2 40 minute, edited shows is really jumping way out on a limb.
I have a different view of JS on Barkley... He didn't think he was going to get offered over 10-12 mil after last years market. He asked you really think he is going to get offered big at age 27 at which point Chris was like yes he is the only difference maker. I don't think he was convinced. I thought he was thinking Barkley would get a 3/30-3/33 offer at most. Why he thought go get an offer and when you see it won't be that high we can match or talk. As for the can you give me your word you will come back to me, Barkley sounded pissed he was questioning him.
if you watched last night, we already know that Daniel Jones likes Nabers.
I think the Giants would have drafted Maye if they had been picking at #3. They weren't. So they "settled" for a guy who they also really liked.
It is great that you think that but there is nothing to support it. Everything that happened is direct evidence to the contrary. I suspect we will see the draft room? Do you think they make a serious offer to NE. Friendly wager right now between you and me. If they call the Patriots when NE is on the clock, they do not offer anything close to what would be needed to get a team DESPERATE for a QB off that pick. I suspect they only offer enough to move up to get the WR they covet.
That prompted the New York Giants and Minnesota Vikings to make last-ditch trade offers to the Patriots.
Per Sports Illustrated’s Albert Breer, the Giants offered the Patriots their 2024 sixth-round pick, along with their 2025 first-rounder, while the Vikings offered three first-round picks in total, including the No. 11 and No. 23 picks this year, along with a 2025 first.
Breer wrote:
The Minnesota Vikings and New York Giants did make offers to the New England Patriots for the No. 3 pick to take Drake Maye. Earlier this week, Minnesota offered the Nos. 11 and 23 picks, and its 2025 first-rounder, with pick swaps favoring the Vikings as part of the proposal; and that offer ticked up with New England on the clock. The Giants, meanwhile, did wind up putting their 2025 first-round pick in their offer to move from No. 6 to No. 3. Here are the massive trade offers the Patriots reportedly passed up for Drake Maye - ( New Window )
A source said the New York Giants had offered the No. 6 overall pick and their 2025 first-round pick, while the Vikings were ultimately willing to part with No. 11 and No. 23, along with a 2025 first-rounder, in exchange for the third pick and two mid-round selections from New England. How the Patriots decided QB Drake Maye was their future - ( New Window )
Observations are that I really love your HC. Think he’s the real deal and will one day win a SB! Maybe not in NYC though !
Nabors appears to have some traits similar to another guy , Odell!
Jones will have to get the ball to him early and often to keep him happy!
Difference I see here is that Daboll has the personality to handle Nabers much better than Coughlin ( who was on the way out) McAdoo or Judge ever did with Beckham.
if you watched last night, we already know that Daniel Jones likes Nabers.
I think the Giants would have drafted Maye if they had been picking at #3. They weren't. So they "settled" for a guy who they also really liked.
It is great that you think that but there is nothing to support it. Everything that happened is direct evidence to the contrary. I suspect we will see the draft room? Do you think they make a serious offer to NE. Friendly wager right now between you and me. If they call the Patriots when NE is on the clock, they do not offer anything close to what would be needed to get a team DESPERATE for a QB off that pick. I suspect they only offer enough to move up to get the WR they covet.
If I am desperate for a QB I am in bed with NE, I ain’t hoping they call me for a chance at a match. They do not appear desperate at all. They seem like a team that decided it was drafting a WR at 6 and REALLY liked three of them. I think they settled in on Nabers and everything with NE was to get information. Eric, we know they wanted a WR more than a QB. It is not debatable.
I am not sure why folks are having trouble understanding that the situation the Giants were dealing with last year was not a binary one. They clearly heavily scouted the top 2024 QBs, especially early in the year when they were in fact sitting on a top 2-3 pick and would have had a shot at one of the top three guys. Indeed, I suspect they would have taken any of the three in a heartbeat if they had a chance, not necessarily because they desperately wanted to replace Jones, but because they would have had a shot at a potential elite QB something that doesn't come along every day in the NFL. Once the order was set they had to pretty much realize that neither Chicago not Wash was going to move off the 1-2 picks, but did make an offer for #3, although my guess is they would have known down deep that the Patriots weren't going any where either or if they were it would be for a huge package like the one the Vikings were offering. However, once that failed it appears Option B was to stick with Jones. Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
I am not sure why folks are having trouble understanding that the situation the Giants were dealing with last year was not a binary one. They clearly heavily scouted the top 2024 QBs, especially early in the year when they were in fact sitting on a top 2-3 pick and would have had a shot at one of the top three guys. Indeed, I suspect they would have taken any of the three in a heartbeat if they had a chance, not necessarily because they desperately wanted to replace Jones, but because they would have had a shot at a potential elite QB something that doesn't come along every day in the NFL. Once the order was set they had to pretty much realize that neither Chicago not Wash was going to move off the 1-2 picks, but did make an offer for #3, although my guess is they would have known down deep that the Patriots weren't going any where either or if they were it would be for a huge package like the one the Vikings were offering. However, once that failed it appears Option B was to stick with Jones. Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
I'm glad we agree you're a butthead.
you can't even write a proper insult without twisting my words.
Eric, sometimes I think the joke is so squarely sitting on your chest -- it might the lack of oxygen keeping you from understanding -- it is in fact on you.
If I am desperate for a QB I am in bed with NE, I ain’t hoping they call me for a chance at a match. They do not appear desperate at all. They seem like a team that decided it was drafting a WR at 6 and REALLY liked three of them. I think they settled in on Nabers and everything with NE was to get information. Eric, we know they wanted a WR more than a QB. It is not debatable.
I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
I'm glad we agree you're a butthead.
you can't even write a proper insult without twisting my words.
Eric, sometimes I think the joke is so squarely sitting on your chest -- it might the lack of oxygen keeping you from understanding -- it is in fact on you.
Can you two cut it out? You are ruining a good thread.
I am not sure why folks are having trouble understanding that the situation the Giants were dealing with last year was not a binary one. They clearly heavily scouted the top 2024 QBs, especially early in the year when they were in fact sitting on a top 2-3 pick and would have had a shot at one of the top three guys. Indeed, I suspect they would have taken any of the three in a heartbeat if they had a chance, not necessarily because they desperately wanted to replace Jones, but because they would have had a shot at a potential elite QB something that doesn't come along every day in the NFL. Once the order was set they had to pretty much realize that neither Chicago not Wash was going to move off the 1-2 picks, but did make an offer for #3, although my guess is they would have known down deep that the Patriots weren't going any where either or if they were it would be for a huge package like the one the Vikings were offering. However, once that failed it appears Option B was to stick with Jones. Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
This is my take.
I agree with this. It makes the most logical sense. Aside from the QB discussion, I find the decision between Odunze and Nabers fascinating.
the Giants offered the Patriots their 2024 sixth-round pick, along with their 2025 first-rounder
= 2024 1st, 6th, and 2025 1st?
I think its a typo...1st rounder in 2024 (6th overall) and 2025 first rounder.
BTW, the other report is from Mike Reiss, who is well known in Boston.
Widely? Sounds like a couple.
We KNOW the results of the draft.
KNOWING THAT we drafted Nabers, replaced our backup with a less accomplished QB and failed to move up or draft a QB…
Is it not infinitely more likely that we were actually doing some things to disguise our true intentions.
You don’t think the team tried any deception at all?
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
They like Daniel Jones and there was no desire or legitimate attempt to replace him.
Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
I think this is spot on.
I think they felt Maye was a very attractive prospect, and willing to upgrade. But that wasn't some deep vote of no confidence in Jones.
I stopped at two, do you want me to keep going. Garafolo reported the Giants wanted Maye. Isn't he the gold standard around here?
Again, I'm not sure why you are so passionate about one take when there is evidence that the Giants not only had discussion with the Patriots to move up (on tape now) but actual offers involving two first round picks.
The Patriot reporters are reporting the same.
At some point, you need to take the loss.
RE: RE: RE: Walking and chewing gum at the same time
I am not sure why folks are having trouble understanding that the situation the Giants were dealing with last year was not a binary one. They clearly heavily scouted the top 2024 QBs, especially early in the year when they were in fact sitting on a top 2-3 pick and would have had a shot at one of the top three guys. Indeed, I suspect they would have taken any of the three in a heartbeat if they had a chance, not necessarily because they desperately wanted to replace Jones, but because they would have had a shot at a potential elite QB something that doesn't come along every day in the NFL. Once the order was set they had to pretty much realize that neither Chicago not Wash was going to move off the 1-2 picks, but did make an offer for #3, although my guess is they would have known down deep that the Patriots weren't going any where either or if they were it would be for a huge package like the one the Vikings were offering. However, once that failed it appears Option B was to stick with Jones. Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
This is my take.
I agree with this. It makes the most logical sense. Aside from the QB discussion, I find the decision between Odunze and Nabers fascinating.
agree with all the above, especially the odunze/nabers part. through most of the process odunze was the non-qb i was probably most attached to so im really looking forward to seeing how much they talked about both of them and what ended up separating them. the consensus seemed to shift heavily to nabers the closer things got to the draft.
What an employee says about his employees, and what he says to his employees always have to be completely separated. I get that, but if I was a corner on the roster and heard my boss saying, "put me in at corner", I would probably feel a little hurt by that, especially if I was 22, 23 years old. I wonder if this show will hurt his credibility within the team.
I have no problem with people pushing back and asking questions. You don't want group think. That's why I actually didn't mind McDonald's comments in Ep. 1.
However, it's very clear that Mara's wishes at the very least, have to be danced around with. The response by some will be, "he has every right, he's the owner." My response to that is Mara is a lot like George Costanza. Every instinct he has is wrong.
I agree that a healthy work environment should encourage people to speak freely and make their case. But that still doesn't take away from my point that there are people in the building who have antiquated views about the NFL. And they have a seat at the table where decisions are made.
Many of us aren't surprised by this reveal, but this confirms suspicions.
Thus far, these two episodes have made it more clear - to me - that Schoen absolutely swings the final gavel on football decisions. But when it comes to dealing with Mara, he has to navigate very carefully to get him on-board.
I stopped at two, do you want me to keep going. Garafolo reported the Giants wanted Maye. Isn't he the gold standard around here?
Again, I'm not sure why you are so passionate about one take when there is evidence that the Giants not only had discussion with the Patriots to move up (on tape now) but actual offers involving two first round picks.
The Patriot reporters are reporting the same.
At some point, you need to take the loss.
Lol Brother, they did NOTHING to upgrade the position. TT is much better than Lock. It is not comparable. One reporter reported and the rest followed. If you think that means they tried Seriosly to get Maye ,I am not here to cure you of ignorance. Have at it. They were even interested in his choice at WR. Sounds they were really keyed up to get his replacement. Y’all had big dreams of a new QB becuase you thought you knew.
You did not know.
Daniel Jones is still QB1.
So sad for some of you.
Kisses.
I am suggesting that if an offer was made, it not to actually make the trade but keep teams from moving ahead of them for a WR.
It is actually a very coveted position on draft day.
I have no problem with people pushing back and asking questions. You don't want group think. That's why I actually didn't mind McDonald's comments in Ep. 1.
However, it's very clear that Mara's wishes at the very least, have to be danced around with. The response by some will be, "he has every right, he's the owner." My response to that is Mara is a lot like George Costanza. Every instinct he has is wrong.
I agree that a healthy work environment should encourage people to speak freely and make their case. But that still doesn't take away from my point that there are people in the building who have antiquated views about the NFL. And they have a seat at the table where decisions are made.
Many of us aren't surprised by this reveal, but this confirms suspicions.
Thus far, these two episodes have made it more clear - to me - that Schoen absolutely swings the final gavel on football decisions. But when it comes to dealing with Mara, he has to navigate very carefully to get him on-board.
What an employee says about his employees, and what he says to his employees always have to be completely separated. I get that, but if I was a corner on the roster and heard my boss saying, "put me in at corner", I would probably feel a little hurt by that, especially if I was 22, 23 years old. I wonder if this show will hurt his credibility within the team.
I think the Giants want a CB, but that is mainly based on Schoen's comments in episode one. I didn't take that comment as a slight. I took it as, "with a really good pass rush, who plays CB matters less." Which is true.
best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
Ummmm... no.
The only reason to even have that discussion was to nab a QB. I don't think the Giants were overly optimistic about the Pats moving out of that pick, but they clearly explored the option.
And even in public pressers, their support of Jones during this process was lukewarm at best.
Context Eric. Patriots needed a QB. Negotiating 101. They have ALL the leverage. You want that pick, you gotta make an offer, I am shocked you don’t understand negotiating better than that. No way the Patriots let anything out of the bag first. Understand, any team that wanted 3 was going to have to come to the Patriots, that deal wasn’t happening any other way. GMEN desperately wanted a WR, I bet we find out they pick Daniel’s choice.
That’s not necessarily true. If the Vikings made an offer to NE that the Pats were willing to accept, you don’t think they’d call Schoen first to see what he’d offer? It would be negligence not to.
Really interested in how the final negotiations play out with Saquon… I don’t want to jump the gun but geez either Schoen was BS’n all along and didn’t want to bring him back at around $10M per or Saquon really just up and left and threw away the ring of honor for an extra million/2million which would be pretty rough on him considering how many more millions he made from the Giants due to them drafting him #2 overall vs him slipping to #4 or even later… did he jump ship and join the opps AND throw away the ring of honor just for a million or 2 more??? If so then wow
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
With or without Mara, Schoen and Daboll had a serious discussion about Daniel Jones' future. I'm talking big picture, strategic level thinking for the franchise. And we're not privy to that discussion for obvious reasons.
Or two, the Giants are more winging it, exploring options but mainly reacting to the cards dealt to them.
I personally have no idea which is taking place.
RE: DHOS a few missing ingredients in the calculation
"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
at #39 it ended up there were no obvious edges left. the players who went from #39 to the Nubin pick at #47 were:
Braden Fiske (pick traded to rams for #52 and next years 2nd)
Dejean
Kool-Aid
Lassiter
Max Melton
Jackson Powers-Johnson
Edgerin Cooper
Jonathan Brooks
so im not even sure they wouldnt have just taken Nubin at #39.
the miss was the Rams trade because they gave up big value to move up 13 slots, but that wasnt predictable ahead of time.
also if you sign Wilkins as a FA as opposed to a Burns trade, you lose the McKinney comp pick which will probably be around pick #140 next year. Which isn't nothing.
very close call either way, either was a good player to add but i prefer the 2 years younger edge rusher bc i think thats the harder thing to find.
Yeah, good point. you and BBI Eric are right, but I was (didn't pay attention when we didn't have that pick) assuming that there was some form of draft slot worthy edge rusher at that point. In reality I agree that more than likely would have put Nubin at that spot. Just saying, Wilkins + Dex would be a thing to see, a real problem for offensive lines.
But, very possible Burns + KT are force multipliers to each other also, so no real issues with that move.
is how much pressure did ownership put on Schoen and Daboll to retain both Jones and Barkley last year. It's clear Mara and McDonnell didn't want SB to go this year (same with Rosetti).
I heard it as he didn't technically offer him a deal, because SB didn't bring that offer back, and later he's saying, well shit, if I had offered this, would he have come back?
RE: RE: DHOS a few missing ingredients in the calculation
Yeah, good point. you and BBI Eric are right, but I was (didn't pay attention when we didn't have that pick) assuming that there was some form of draft slot worthy edge rusher at that point. In reality I agree that more than likely would have put Nubin at that spot. Just saying, Wilkins + Dex would be a thing to see, a real problem for offensive lines.
But, very possible Burns + KT are force multipliers to each other also, so no real issues with that move.
yeah i agree, last week my biggest question from that episode was this exact question wilkins + 39 or burns. a week later i dont think there's a wrong answer, but without an obvious name at #39 (or #52 post trade down) i find myself gravitated towards choosing the harder to find/bigger impact player, which i think is burns.
As others have pointed out, watching Daboll quiz the QB prospects at the chalkboard was pure platinum. It sure brings a lot of confidence back for me with BD and how he must approach Jones behind the scenes. Can there be any doubt he is twice as hard on Daniel in their own meetings and Jones must be doing something right in those sessions?
Clearly DJ has not shown the right instincts anywhere near enough during the games when it counts. But Daboll must think he is capable, otherwise they would have done more at QB then just bringing in Drew Lock.
Pre-draft, I must admit to liking the cut of JJM's jib at QB, figuring he would be there at 6. I would have enjoyed seeing more of the Daboll interaction with JJ then the little clip we actually got. I do think that both JS and BD really liked JJ quite a bit, but they were in full bloom love and over the moon with Nabers, which I can understand.
Is it possible that all this trade up talk with NE for Maye is just a little bit of a smoke screen for not taking JJ and sticking with Jones? Surely they knew there were a lot of people who think the Giants should be done with Jones, but if they say they loved Maye and just could not get the deal done, so the rumored trade up at least offers some cover for not taking JJ or any other QB. Just a thought, not saying this is the case.
I did not know that Daboll had worked with Favre or the Jets, so that was interesting. Also not in love with the scout's shrimp dinner, surely that should have ended up on the cutting room floor....
they did make an offer. It was widely reported. Teams don't make firm offers until right before the draft, and often during the draft.
First…Does reported equal truth? Or only when it supports Eric’s point? I disagree it was widely reported and if it was. What was they offer made?
A bunch of national and local reporters posted that the Giants offered multiple picks to move up. The Patriots also confirmed the Giants were one of the teams they were talking to on draft day.
I'm not sure why you are taking umbrage with this.
Because it doesn't jibe with his appeal to authority: "The Giants have unwavering confidence in Jones, so thegratefulhead must be right about him!"
RE: RE: DHOS a few missing ingredients in the calculation
"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
at #39 it ended up there were no obvious edges left. the players who went from #39 to the Nubin pick at #47 were:
Braden Fiske (pick traded to rams for #52 and next years 2nd)
Dejean
Kool-Aid
Lassiter
Max Melton
Jackson Powers-Johnson
Edgerin Cooper
Jonathan Brooks
so im not even sure they wouldnt have just taken Nubin at #39.
the miss was the Rams trade because they gave up big value to move up 13 slots, but that wasnt predictable ahead of time.
also if you sign Wilkins as a FA as opposed to a Burns trade, you lose the McKinney comp pick which will probably be around pick #140 next year. Which isn't nothing.
very close call either way, either was a good player to add but i prefer the 2 years younger edge rusher bc i think thats the harder thing to find.
Yeah, good point. you and BBI Eric are right, but I was (didn't pay attention when we didn't have that pick) assuming that there was some form of draft slot worthy edge rusher at that point. In reality I agree that more than likely would have put Nubin at that spot. Just saying, Wilkins + Dex would be a thing to see, a real problem for offensive lines.
But, very possible Burns + KT are force multipliers to each other also, so no real issues with that move.
Example: They could have picked Nubin at 39 and Beebee in Nubin's spot.
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
That is a fair viewpoint, especially with how hard they scouted the QB prospects. But Schoen still has to wear that noose from the contract he dished out to DJ so he is hoping to get relief somehow (even from DJ himself).
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
Until you see more evidence?
So Garofolo, multiple beat writers for both teams and a national reporter reporting what the offer was is not “enough evidence”?
What would be the determining factor that you would deem is “enough evidence”?
Seems like you are just trying to holding on the the narrative that they still want Jones and didn’t try to get Maye
As others have pointed out, watching Daboll quiz the QB prospects at the chalkboard was pure platinum. It sure brings a lot of confidence back for me with BD and how he must approach Jones behind the scenes. Can there be any doubt he is twice as hard on Daniel in their own meetings and Jones must be doing something right in those sessions?
Clearly DJ has not shown the right instincts anywhere near enough during the games when it counts. But Daboll must think he is capable, otherwise they would have done more at QB then just bringing in Drew Lock.
Pre-draft, I must admit to liking the cut of JJM's jib at QB, figuring he would be there at 6. I would have enjoyed seeing more of the Daboll interaction with JJ then the little clip we actually got. I do think that both JS and BD really liked JJ quite a bit, but they were in full bloom love and over the moon with Nabers, which I can understand.
Is it possible that all this trade up talk with NE for Maye is just a little bit of a smoke screen for not taking JJ and sticking with Jones? Surely they knew there were a lot of people who think the Giants should be done with Jones, but if they say they loved Maye and just could not get the deal done, so the rumored trade up at least offers some cover for not taking JJ or any other QB. Just a thought, not saying this is the case.
I did not know that Daboll had worked with Favre or the Jets, so that was interesting. Also not in love with the scout's shrimp dinner, surely that should have ended up on the cutting room floor....
I didn't know about Favre either. Show did a good job of reminding everyone who Daboll has worked with.
I've seen a a number of comments about the ending dinner. I actually kind of liked it because we got a glimpse into the personality of the scouts. They spent a ton of time on Hannah (for obvious reasons) but didn't give enough air time to the other scouts. We got a glimpse of them there. (Plus I'm a sucker for a nice dinner out with booze and comradery).
Other points I picked up
1) Giants view Corner has a huge need
2) Trade up to pick 3 was real with NE
2) Giants were interested in Christian Wilkins
3) Giants had some interest in retaining Mckinney
4) Giants are concerned Jones may not be ready until week 3/4
5) Giants felt unsure about Maliks personality. Jones approved Maliks talent.
Yup, based on the first two episodes, expect CB to be high on next year's wish list. I expect DT to be too. (QB is a completely different discussion).
Two positions loaded at the top of next years draft IF we happen to be picking top 15 again… CB opposite of Banks or IDL next to Dex seems to be the early favorite, throw in OL every year too and pending on how DJ looks QB also…
RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
Example: They could have picked Nubin at 39 and Beebee in Nubin's spot.
Is Wilkens, Beebee better than Burns?
for a team that has seen firsthand how easy it is to not get much out of IOL picks id have to have a really high opinion of beebee. guards have been one of the deeper FA positions the last several offseasons.
i think im taking the 2x pro bowl 26 year old pass rusher because those dont come along for less than a first round pick pretty much ever. montez sweat was the only other one i can think of and at the time he was a rental.
would have been stunned if NE traded #3. As I said several times before the draft, the number one rule of drafting is that if you need a franchise QB and can draft one at your pick, then you do so and reject all trade offers. NE absolutely needed a franchise QB. The only question was whether they were actually considering taking JJM at #3, which seemed unlikely.
What would have been interesting is if SD had taken Nabers instead of Alt. Would the Giants then have really taken Alt after having used the #7 pick on Neal just two years earlier? There were rumors that the Giants thought Alt had HOF potential. Or would they have taken Odunze or traded down?
As far as Burns vs. Wilkins, I'd rather have Burns. Yes, we had to give up #39 for Burns, which would not have been the case if we had signed Wilkins. But Burns is an elite pass rusher, and the cost of a #2 and a #5 was a lot less than what the Rams originally offered Carolina, which I think was two #1's and a #2.
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
+1
RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
they effectively got the same contracts except with burns getting 1 extra guaranteed year (likely in large part bc he is 2 years younger). burns got 3 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options, wilkins got 2 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options.
RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
RE: RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
they effectively got the same contracts except with burns getting 1 extra guaranteed year (likely in large part bc he is 2 years younger). burns got 3 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options, wilkins got 2 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options.
Ok so yeah for that price point alone you’d probably rather have the edge guy… (without factoring the 2nd round pick) I thought Wilkins was at around $22M… maybe that was NYG’s projection for him (which seemed low all around this year)
RE: RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
Ok, maybe.
Do you think Barkley left for an extra $1M-$2M /// do you think Schoen let him walk over asking for an extra $1M-$2M ???
Kind of a shame on both sides to be honest if this is the case… now we got $11M in cap and not much use for it as it stands today… kind of sucks TBH but oh well we’ll be alright
Really interested in how the final negotiations play out with Saquon… I don’t want to jump the gun but geez either Schoen was BS’n all along and didn’t want to bring him back at around $10M per or Saquon really just up and left and threw away the ring of honor for an extra million/2million which would be pretty rough on him considering how many more millions he made from the Giants due to them drafting him #2 overall vs him slipping to #4 or even later… did he jump ship and join the opps AND throw away the ring of honor just for a million or 2 more??? If so then wow
Seems clear to me that last season’s negotiation between Schoen and Barkley left a bad taste in both of their mouths. The conversation that shoen had with Barkleys agent and then Barkley IMO confirms they were both ready to move on.
RE: RE: RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
Ok, maybe.
Do you think Barkley left for an extra $1M-$2M /// do you think Schoen let him walk over asking for an extra $1M-$2M ???
Kind of a shame on both sides to be honest if this is the case… now we got $11M in cap and not much use for it as it stands today… kind of sucks TBH but oh well we’ll be alright
I think if Barkley's price had come down to single-digit AAV, maybe Schoen would have been interested, but that was never realistic. The Giants probably weren't as close as the reports suggest, and you can make a case that some of Schoen's actions last year (like reducing the AAV when he increased the gtd money) suggest that the goal was not to sign Barkley (unless the contract was extremely favorable), but instead to make sure that it appeared that every good faith effort was explored in the pursuit of keeping Barkley. IOW, a PR campaign to keep fans happy, but specifically designed to discourage Barkley from signing.
As for the $11M in cap space that the Giants have right now, that's the operating budget for this season. There's room for maybe 1-2 journeymen that make slightly more than the minimum, but that's not big ticket shopping kind of money. The Giants (like most teams) earmark around $10M for in-season activity. The Giants didn't have space for that earmark this year without altering other contracts. Waller's retirement gave them their breathing room, not a windfall for free agency.
RE: RE: RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
they effectively got the same contracts except with burns getting 1 extra guaranteed year (likely in large part bc he is 2 years younger). burns got 3 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options, wilkins got 2 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options.
Ok so yeah for that price point alone you’d probably rather have the edge guy… (without factoring the 2nd round pick) I thought Wilkins was at around $22M… maybe that was NYG’s projection for him (which seemed low all around this year)
the cap shooting up changed things for everyone and the top FA got more overpaid than usual. in no world should wilkins be making 5m more per year than Dex's 22.5m signed only 12 months ago. but that's what happens on the open market when there is more money than good players to go around. the best players on the open market get bid up even though they arent the best players but rather the best available.
RE: RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
How much better (if at all) is Wilkins than Leo? Dex/Leo/Thibs/ xx couldn't generate pressure on their own.
RE: RE: RE: RE: hate to say it but signing Christian Wilkins + having pick 39 back
How much better (if at all) is Wilkins than Leo? Dex/Leo/Thibs/ xx couldn't generate pressure on their own.
this is a good observation. leo has actually historically been the better pass rusher including last year by a bunch of metrics. that's why he got another big contract even on the wrong side of 30. getting the most productive pass rusher at the youngest age was likely the primary motivation but trying a new formula was probably part of the appeal.
but I am just curious if it has been reported whether Saquon actually came back to the Giants with the Eagles offer? I think if he did not do that after saying he would (kind of) that would be a really bad move. Just curious if this has come out today.
but I am just curious if it has been reported whether Saquon actually came back to the Giants with the Eagles offer? I think if he did not do that after saying he would (kind of) that would be a really bad move. Just curious if this has come out today.
i think that's what they are teasing we'll see in the next episode.
interesting documentary the NFL films put out was on the Roku channel "The Pick is In"; they did a new one this year for the 2024 draft that came out a couple of weeks ago, and one of the scenes it had was the Bears war room when the Giants were on the clock and universally they all thought the Giants were taking Nabers. Kevin Warren, the Bears President, says "They'll take Nabers, they gotta get the Quarterback some help". All their focus was on getting one of the two WR's (Odunze or Nabers) but it was interesting to see an outside organization sounding like it wasnt even a thought in their mind that the Giants would take McCarthy.
Per a league source with knowledge of the situation, the Giants extended an offer to Barkley worth $13 million per year, including $26 million over the first two years. The offer was made before the deadline for applying the franchise tag, with the express message from the team that, if the tag were applied to Barkley, the offer would be pulled. Barkley was looking for Christian McCaffrey money, we’re told; that’s roughly $16 million per year.
Link - ( New Window )
Mike Garafolo and Ryan Dunleavy both reported that to be incorrect and reported the specific details of what Barkley was looking for.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
New: In the end, #Giants and Saquon Barkley couldn't bridge a gap of less than $2 million in both average annual salary and guarantees over the first 2 years, sources said. Both sides felt they budged enough and now it feels like a big risk for both https://nypost.com/2023/07/17/saquon-barkley-giants-cant-reach-deal-ahead-of-contract-deadline/ #nyg
Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The staggering part of the #Giants and Saquon Barkley being unable to reach a deal is how close they were.
@rydunleavy’s reporting is in line with what I’ve heard regarding the spread between the sides. It seemed close enough to bridge as the deadline drew near. Didn’t happen.
Barkley already rejected reported giant 3-year contract offers during and after 2022 season, that by reports were above the franchise tag and IMO were very fair. By rejecting this Barkley hurt the giants 3 ways in early 2023:
a) by Barkley signing and with positive contract structure, more available money to sign higher quality free agents;
b) this impacts decisions made on needs for 2023 upcoming draft;
c) increases giant leverage with signing Jones in 2023
This would have given Schoen more than enough reason to be more hardline in his July 2023 negotiations with Barkley since he already lost these positives by that time.
I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
My guess is privately Schoen's view is something like:
Dude, I don't even want you here, and the only reason I offered this much is because my boss keeps coming in my office telling me how much he loves you.
The worst outcome for Schoen is Philly validating Mara's perspective. And if Barkley has a huge season, it will be a credibility eroding problem for Schoen in Mara's eyes.
Barkley is going to do well in Philly. Why is that even a question? Frankly, Schoen offered Barkley virtually the same deal mid 2022. So I do not blame Schoen for being a bit miffed. Then Barkley dragged his ass after the Tag. So Schoen had had enough.
Schoen is right with his decision on Barkley. I like SB a lot, but the numbers are the numbers. I think Barkley and his agents blew it in 2022, but Barkley is pissed at Schoen - wrongly. Very similar to Love. Schoen offered the correct number and both turned it down. Schoen moved on. Plain and simple.
Basically, Schoen took the Barkley money and got some oline.
It is clear that while Mara has his druthers, Schoen rules the roost. The Maras have always loved their players as family, especially the Favs, and that is why the Giants have trouble holding on to players too long.
interesting documentary the NFL films put out was on the Roku channel "The Pick is In"; they did a new one this year for the 2024 draft that came out a couple of weeks ago, and one of the scenes it had was the Bears war room when the Giants were on the clock and universally they all thought the Giants were taking Nabers. Kevin Warren, the Bears President, says "They'll take Nabers, they gotta get the Quarterback some help". All their focus was on getting one of the two WR's (Odunze or Nabers) but it was interesting to see an outside organization sounding like it wasnt even a thought in their mind that the Giants would take McCarthy.
but I am just curious if it has been reported whether Saquon actually came back to the Giants with the Eagles offer? I think if he did not do that after saying he would (kind of) that would be a really bad move. Just curious if this has come out today.
i think that's what they are teasing we'll see in the next episode.
On that phone call Barkley seemed to indicate that he’d already told Schoen his asking price. Could be that I misinterpreted what he said, and hindsight is 20/20. To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
interesting documentary the NFL films put out was on the Roku channel "The Pick is In"; they did a new one this year for the 2024 draft that came out a couple of weeks ago, and one of the scenes it had was the Bears war room when the Giants were on the clock and universally they all thought the Giants were taking Nabers. Kevin Warren, the Bears President, says "They'll take Nabers, they gotta get the Quarterback some help". All their focus was on getting one of the two WR's (Odunze or Nabers) but it was interesting to see an outside organization sounding like it wasnt even a thought in their mind that the Giants would take McCarthy.
Interesting. Thanks.
Chicago couldn’t get to the podium fast enough to pick Odunze after Atlanta took Penix Jr.
interesting documentary the NFL films put out was on the Roku channel "The Pick is In"; they did a new one this year for the 2024 draft that came out a couple of weeks ago, and one of the scenes it had was the Bears war room when the Giants were on the clock and universally they all thought the Giants were taking Nabers. Kevin Warren, the Bears President, says "They'll take Nabers, they gotta get the Quarterback some help". All their focus was on getting one of the two WR's (Odunze or Nabers) but it was interesting to see an outside organization sounding like it wasnt even a thought in their mind that the Giants would take McCarthy.
To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
i think you are right about this - but id imagine the main source of that frustration was hearing schoen spend 2 years saying they wanted him back and yet didnt put any offer on the table.
schoen was the one with the power of this decision not barkley, and he did nothing with the powers he had (be it putting an offer on the table or tagging or trading him earlier). he just let the clock run out (which i suspect was intentional but if not it was just stupid).
So Garofolo, multiple beat writers for both teams and a national reporter reporting what the offer was is not “enough evidence”?
What would be the determining factor that you would deem is “enough evidence”?
Seems like you are just trying to holding on the the narrative that they still want Jones and didn’t try to get Maye
Read what I wrote. I said I could see the interest in Maye, and discussions with New England, but I could also see Schoen being perfectly content sticking with Jones if they couldn't execute a trade.
What I don't know is how hard to the hole Schoen went to make a deal to buy the 3rd pick.
So Garofolo, multiple beat writers for both teams and a national reporter reporting what the offer was is not “enough evidence”?
What would be the determining factor that you would deem is “enough evidence”?
Seems like you are just trying to holding on the the narrative that they still want Jones and didn’t try to get Maye
Read what I wrote. I said I could see the interest in Maye, and discussions with New England, but I could also see Schoen being perfectly content sticking with Jones if they couldn't execute a trade.
What I don't know is how hard to the hole Schoen went to make a deal to buy the 3rd pick.
No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
RE: Reading the tea leaves and piecing it together
It can’t be more clear how the Barkley situation played out the past 18+ months. Mara and Co desperately wanted him to be the face of the franchise for the next 25 years, and already ordering the ring of honor signage. And willing to resign him at any cost.
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
The frustration of dealing with Barkley, calling his Giant for Life bluff, and pressure from ownership all couldn't be more clear IMO
This is a good take. Barkley essentially helped screw up the Giants plans, and now he's gone to PHI with his middle finger in the air. That said, without having anything to do with Barkley, the Giants wanted to get DJ signed longterm after 2022, because they were concerned about the QB market values skyrocketing paired with DJ producing more with a better supporting cast.
They gambled that what happened last year wouldn't. And now that it has, the Barkley fiasco from a year ago feels like a fresh wound. As Schoen's refrain has been, had he simply accepted the original offer they all would've been fine.
No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Supposed terms were reported. That could mean Schoen was willing to consider two firsts, etc, but then he got cold feet. Maybe Wolf said toss in another player/second day pick, but Schoen wouldn't go that far.
No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Supposed terms were reported. That could mean Schoen was willing to consider two firsts, etc, but then he got cold feet. Maybe Wolf said toss in another player/second day pick, but Schoen wouldn't go that far.
No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Supposed terms were reported. That could mean Schoen was willing to consider two firsts, etc, but then he got cold feet. Maybe Wolf said toss in another player/second day pick, but Schoen wouldn't go that far.
So, I don't know what the actual BAFO was.
Oh….so now it’s supposed terms….gotcha
I don't know why this is confusing for you, but unless a trade is completed, the terms of an incomplete trade discussion are ALWAYS speculative.
I do tend to believe Garafolo's voice on the matter, but as a matter of common sense, there are only two ways to ever truly KNOW the terms of a trade negotiation: 1) the trade actually gets completed; 2) both teams expressly confirm the best and final offer/ask.
Let me add this. If you really identify a franchise QB that you think will move your franchise forward, and you are willing to sell assets to get him, then you find a way to make the deal. It's that simple. Because if you nail it, the deal will pay for itself.
Accorsi really wanted Eli, so he found a way.
I think Schoen liked Maye, but he didn't love him enough to move off Jones and really change the direction of the franchise.
So, we enter year six with Jones.
RE: art was right that episode was amazing - dabs combine interviews alone
worth the price of admission. wilkins and #39 is tempting but if you look at what was still on the board it's less clear. the most tempting alternative wasnt a player but the trade the rams did giving up 2 seconds for 1, which then pushes that pick below nubin any way. also would have voided the mckinney comp pick next year so not totally free.
there is a reasonable argument both ways but i think an edge bender like burns is just too hard to find elsewhere. also a couple years younger than wilkins. there's a reason he got tagged and had trade value, players like him at that age do not hit the open market.
since last summer it's been clear schoen didnt want to bring barkley back. i hope motor works out and does a good job but i think schoen dropped the ball on that one. the deal barkley's team proposed last year, encompassing the $10m from tag, was fair. ed berry clearly saw the writing on the wall and i thought it was interesting when he asked schoen point blank if they wanted to move on he answered like natalie imbruglia. i give him credit for taking the less comfortable path, but i dont think that's going to provide much respite if barkley gains 2k yards and 10+ tds in philly this year. hopefully that OL implodes without kelce. schoen's entire strategy in that negotiation was reactive vs proactive. i would have liked to see more of daboll's thoughts on that but it seems like the giants put a wall up on that.
Is the issue Barkley (team icon) vs no Barkley?
Or is it that Daboll has sold the organization on the idea that a "bell cow" RB is a bad philosophy?
- What happens if he goes down? (We'vd experienced that!)
- RBBC gives the coordinator the ability to execute the "what you saw last week may not be what you see this week" strategy.
Let me add this. If you really identify a franchise QB that you think will move your franchise forward, and you are willing to sell assets to get him, then you find a way to make the deal. It's that simple. Because if you nail it, the deal will pay for itself.
Accorsi really wanted Eli, so he found a way.
I think Schoen liked Maye, but he didn't love him enough to move off Jones and really change the direction of the franchise.
So, we enter year six with Jones.
Accorsi had a willing partner to trade
Schoen did not and you never no idea how much he may have liked Maye….could have been the price was too steep
"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
This coupled with watching a ton of Odunze last season and then seeing him in this episode has me really wishing we took him. Nabers seems like he is going to be a very high risk/high reward pick. Odunze ceiling may be lower by a smidge but his floor is absolutely higher by a mile. Barring injury he will be a hell of a player.
Really hope we got it right. All coaches think they can help players be who they need to be. It ain't that easy.
I agree with the old fashioned NYG philosophy of intelligence and character being important. If you deviate you can get burned (e.g. DeAndre Baker).
But at the very elite level, the very same characteristics that make a player a "rebel" vs contemporary standards are the same that make him "All Pro" (see Taylor, Lawrence; Lewis, Ray)
The staff, led by have decided to take that gamble.
all my info comes from my relationship within the Pats org.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
all my info comes from my relationship within the Pats org.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
all my info comes from my relationship within the Pats org.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
Thanks for sharing this. That is a very generous offer by Schoen - and clearly indicates he wanted Maye badly. My guess is the Pats sensed at some point that the JJM-mania was just subterfuge and realized they would be insane not to simply sit tight and take Maye. Smart decision by them and unfortunate for us.
drinks at the steakhouse old fashions and not one martini
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
Are you suggesting we should give Schoen credit for trying "hard"?
There is that line in the movie Social Network where the Mark Zuckerberg character says to the Winklevoss twins that if they were the inventors of Facebook, they would have invented Facebook.
If Schoen really wanted Maye, the Giants would have Maye on their roster right now.
It’s become pretty clear that Daboll made the choice of drafting Nabers. He loved the kid and wanted him bad for the offense. I just hope the right decision was made in the long run. There’s a chance Daboll isn’t here next year. There’s also character concerns with Nabers that need to be managed. Odunze doesn’t have a high a ceiling as Nabers, but his floor is higher and his work ethic will make him a high end pro. In the end, would the Giants prefer a dominant 3-4 year stretch like OBJ had here, or a cornerstone franchise WR like Mike Evans over a 10 season stretch.
all my info comes from my relationship within the Pats org.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
I remember you telling us. Thanks for sharing again.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
Are you suggesting we should give Schoen credit for trying "hard"?
There is that line in the movie Social Network where the Mark Zuckerberg character says to the Winklevoss twins that if they were the inventors of Facebook, they would have invented Facebook.
If Schoen really wanted Maye, the Giants would have Maye on their roster right now.
The Chargers really wanted Rivers, so they found a way to have their cake and eat it too. If the Patriots had preferred JJM to Maye, perhaps things turn out differently than they had. But it's hard (maybe even impossible) to talk a team that desperately needs a QB into trading away the pick that would land them the QB of their choice.
In the end, would the Giants prefer a dominant 3-4 year stretch like OBJ had here, or a cornerstone franchise WR like Mike Evans over a 10 season stretch.
Why exactly is *this* the choice? Who says Nabers can't be a cornerstone franchise WR?
Why is Odunze certainly not one of the many jumbo-sized WRs that fail?
You're digging your heels in way too much. I get you want it to be all about Jones and how much this regime loves him.
The Dolphins reportedly offered three 1st round picks for Burrow. Guess what, the Bengals didn't move him.
Your argument would carry a lot more weight had the Patriots traded the pick. They didn't.
If true, that was a great offer by Miami. And if I am a Fins fan, I could live with that effort. Although I believe that was all three if Miami's firsts in the 2020 draft, not future drafts...?
Of course, Miami compounded that miss by passing on Herbert.
It doesn't appear from reporting that Schoen went with a package that strong. It was only two firsts, not three. That is a material difference.
RE: If Schoen really wanted Maye, the Giants would have Maye
In the end, would the Giants prefer a dominant 3-4 year stretch like OBJ had here, or a cornerstone franchise WR like Mike Evans over a 10 season stretch.
Why exactly is *this* the choice? Who says Nabers can't be a cornerstone franchise WR?
Why is Odunze certainly not one of the many jumbo-sized WRs that fail?
He’s not jumbo sized, he’s 6’3 215-220 lbs. He also has a strong work ethic and solid production in college. He has everything possible to succeed at the NFL level.
Assuming the reports are accurate about Schoen's offer to Wolfe (the 6th pick and the first in 2024), was that a fair offer or a great offer?
I heard it reported that it was a 2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and then they added a 5th as well to sweeten the pot. This was reported by the Talkin Giants guys and given what Rico reported the day of the draft, I have to believe Schoen thought he had a deal. Then the Pats retreated.
Everyone believes what they want to believe I suppose.
Assuming the reports are accurate about Schoen's offer to Wolfe (the 6th pick and the first in 2024), was that a fair offer or a great offer?
I heard it reported that it was a 2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and then they added a 5th as well to sweeten the pot. This was reported by the Talkin Giants guys and given what Rico reported the day of the draft, I have to believe Schoen thought he had a deal. Then the Pats retreated.
Everyone believes what they want to believe I suppose.
I'm glad you raised the Rico reference because I have been meaning to go back and read that draft say thread.
Anyway, you're a smart guy. Do you think that offer you cited was a great offer or a very fair offer?
Slots aside, SF put three down for Lance. So anything short of that is up for debate.
Wasn't SF making a higher jump than 6 to 3?
bw: Schoen would have needed to throw in a 2026 first to really get NE's attention I'm sure. Was that ever on the table? I don't know. Would NE have done it? Who knows.
Then you get to a point where it's a bigger return than the move for Eli.
You're digging your heels in way too much. I get you want it to be all about Jones and how much this regime loves him.
The Dolphins reportedly offered three 1st round picks for Burrow. Guess what, the Bengals didn't move him.
Your argument would carry a lot more weight had the Patriots traded the pick. They didn't.
If true, that was a great offer by Miami. And if I am a Fins fan, I could live with that effort. Although I believe that was all three if Miami's firsts in the 2020 draft, not future drafts...?
Of course, Miami compounded that miss by passing on Herbert.
It doesn't appear from reporting that Schoen went with a package that strong. It was only two firsts, not three. That is a material difference.
We were moving from 6 to 3, not 5 to 1 (like Miami). Moving up fewer spots from a similarly-valued pick to a far less valuable pick.
Even so, I would think our package is better than theirs (5, 18, and 30). It’s a good bet our ‘25 pick would be in the top-10 with a rookie QB and no Nabers.
To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
i think you are right about this - but id imagine the main source of that frustration was hearing schoen spend 2 years saying they wanted him back and yet didnt put any offer on the table.
FFS, how did Schoen not put any offer on the table since July 2022? That's just demonstrably not true.
Schoen did the right thing here, IMO, and probably a year too late actually. Barkley wanted more money than he was worth. But based on everything we've seen, Mara most likely wouldn't let Barkley walk away in 2023.
RE: 6th pick & 1st in 2024), was that a fair offer or a great offer?
I assume you mean 6th overall pick in 2024 and Giant first rounder in 2025.
The short answer is IF that was the Giants offered as compensation to the Pats, that wasn't a great offer by the Giants and would not indicate Schoen really wanted Maye.
Assuming the compensation offered was more like what Rico/Sean indicated (2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and 2024 or 2025 5th) that is at least a fair offer, maybe a borderline great offer to drop only from 3rd overall to 6th overall.
Assuming the above (2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and 2024 or 2025 5th) was the offer and it was rejected by the Pats, how much more would you be willing to give up to sweeten the offer?
2024 2nd?
2024 and 2025 2nd?
2024 2nd and 2026 1st?
I think if the Giants gave up much more than what was reportedly offered to trade up for Maye, they would had to be close to 100% certain Maye was going to be a future franchise QB. These teams likely were just a certain they were drafting (and in multiple cases, trading up to get them) a future franchise QB.
2017 2nd M Trubisky
2018 2nd S Darnold
2021 2nd Z Wilson
2021 3rd T Lance
The 49ers got very lucky that after they whiffed on Lance, the hit on Purdy.
We'll likely never know whether the Pats would have listened to an even sweeter offer or if they just stopped picking up the phone (as Chicago likely did).
Nabers + 2024 3rd (A Phillips) + 2025 1st + 2025 5th >> Maye IMHO
Assuming the reports are accurate about Schoen's offer to Wolfe (the 6th pick and the first in 2024), was that a fair offer or a great offer?
I heard it reported that it was a 2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and then they added a 5th as well to sweeten the pot. This was reported by the Talkin Giants guys and given what Rico reported the day of the draft, I have to believe Schoen thought he had a deal. Then the Pats retreated.
Everyone believes what they want to believe I suppose.
I'm glad you raised the Rico reference because I have been meaning to go back and read that draft say thread.
Anyway, you're a smart guy. Do you think that offer you cited was a great offer or a very fair offer?
I think it was a more than fair offer. It was "only" three spots and fantastic players were still going to be available including McCarthy(most likely). It is not like NE was losing its ability to get a great player.
What is clear is that it didn't matter what was offered because the Pats wanted Maye and weren't moving.
To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
i think you are right about this - but id imagine the main source of that frustration was hearing schoen spend 2 years saying they wanted him back and yet didnt put any offer on the table.
FFS, how did Schoen not put any offer on the table since July 2022? That's just demonstrably not true.
Schoen did the right thing here, IMO, and probably a year too late actually. Barkley wanted more money than he was worth. But based on everything we've seen, Mara most likely wouldn't let Barkley walk away in 2023.
Outside of his rookie year, SB hasn't been worth the money he wanted. He and his agents badly overplayed their hand and contributed to the mess that ensued. See ya.
Eric, I wonder if Schoen is actually talking about last year.
My subjective, opinionated take is that Schoen didn't really want Barkley back and Barkley didn't really want to come back.
Everything else seems like background noise to me.
This.
Schoen in his absolute gut knows paying that position that contract hurts you in team building. Berry called him out on it over the phone - and I think he was right.
It also sounds like from a business perspective these guys have some bad blood after last offseason - it was a good thing for both parties to walk away.
Didn't Barkley change agents after last year?
RE: RE: Reading the tea leaves and piecing it together
It can’t be more clear how the Barkley situation played out the past 18+ months. Mara and Co desperately wanted him to be the face of the franchise for the next 25 years, and already ordering the ring of honor signage. And willing to resign him at any cost.
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
I 100% agree. It's total conjecture of course, but all the pieces fit. It looks to me like Schoen's directive in the 2023 offseason was to keep both Barkley and Jones, and Schoen rightly wanted to sign Barkley and franchise Jones (if Jones wouldn't take a reasonable deal).
Barkley fucked that plan by demanding an extra year or whatever (after signing with the Eables Barkley said he got the 4th guaranteed year that he wanted, i.e. 2023 with the Giants and the 3 years with the Eagles) so Schoen had to pivot with little time to sign Jones to a deal that wouldn't screw the 2023 cap (barley eating up $12 million by getting the FT), but because Jones's camp was playing hardball and knew they had all the leverage (time running out, no more franchise tag), Jone's deal ended up with a big cap hit in 2024.
That's why Schoen kept mentioning the $40 million. He is freakin annoyed, IMO, that he is stuck with Jones on what is now his THIRD prove-it year, except now he has to pay Jones $40 million to prove his worth. He couldn't let Jones walk in FA because Mara wanted him on the team (again, just conjecture, but certainly looks that way based on what we've seen so far).
If it is true we offered 6th overall, a 2025 first, and a 2024 third for 3rd overall, IMO that is a great offer. It is comparable to what the 49ers gave up to get up to 3rd for Trey Lance, which I think everyone agrees was a great deal for the Dolphins.
49ers gave up the 12th overall, two future firsts (next yr + 2 yrs away), and a third to get to 3rd. So the difference between that and the Giants offer is 12th overall +a first round pick in two years versus 6th overall. At the very least those are comparable, but IMO a 6th is probably worth more than 12th + a first round pick in two years.
Also keep in mind the Dolphins actually moved up to 6th in the same draft, so effectively the Dolphins got:
3rd overall in exchange for 6th overall, a first in two years, and 3rd round pick
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
This!!!!
But it destroys the narrative of the usual suspects that the team is still all in on DJ
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
This!!!!
But it destroys the narrative of the usual suspects that the team is still all in on DJ
I haven't seen a single BBIer say the Giants are "all in" on DJ. Nor one who thinks they should be now, or a year ago.
His contract told the tale, even before Schoen said the plan was always to give him 2 years to show he's the guy for the next 10.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
+1.
also there was a recent trade of #6 for #3 where a QB was selected. Jets moved up for Darnold, who like Maye was considered at the time a 1oa quality prospect.
that cost them 3 second rounders. 2 in 2018, 1 the following year. by all accounts the nyg were willing to give up more than that offer.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
This!!!!
But it destroys the narrative of the usual suspects that the team is still all in on DJ
I haven't seen a single BBIer say the Giants are "all in" on DJ. Nor one who thinks they should be now, or a year ago.
His contract told the tale, even before Schoen said the plan was always to give him 2 years to show he's the guy for the next 10.
Really?
I’ve seen many opine that the offer to Maye wasn’t that strong and that the team still believes in DJ
Or that there interest in a QB was just a smokescreen
You are quoting from Hard Knocks….I am referring to pre HK before we heard Schoen say they quote about 2 years
Really?
I’ve seen many opine that the offer to Maye wasn’t that strong and that the team still believes in DJ
Or that there interest in a QB was just a smokescreen
You are quoting from Hard Knocks….I am referring to pre HK before we heard Schoen say they quote about 2 years
Like I said, the contract told the tale a year ago - a 2 year commitment. Schoen didn't have to say it.
Who knows about Maye. It could have been a smokescreen - the people (led by Dan Duggan) who reported it or wish continue to call it fact. As Jones told one of the reporters - he doesn't know what happened draft day and (the reporter) doesn't either. Maybe we'll find out more in the next episode.
We don't know exactly what they think of DJ. Obviously they think they can win with him. But from declining his option to a contract structured for a 2 year out to Schoen's HK comments, the one thing we know is they've never been all in. I'd have worried if they were.
In the end, would the Giants prefer a dominant 3-4 year stretch like OBJ had here, or a cornerstone franchise WR like Mike Evans over a 10 season stretch.
Why exactly is *this* the choice? Who says Nabers can't be a cornerstone franchise WR?
Why is Odunze certainly not one of the many jumbo-sized WRs that fail?
He’s not jumbo sized, he’s 6’3 215-220 lbs. He also has a strong work ethic and solid production in college. He has everything possible to succeed at the NFL level.
Nearly every player projected to round 1 does. They dont all work. Not remotely suggesting he'd fail, but i dont understad those two outcomes seemingly being what you're choosing between.
Perhaps 2 1s was never a serious offer. They reportedly turned that down - but no one was going to be dumb enough to offer that much again. And they probably know he was going to be gone and they thought this was the best they could get.
RE: Barkley - he was disappointed. He wanted to stay a Giant and he wanted the most money he could get. It's a business, but feelings get involved as well.
Didn't anyone think Worthy could still run even a little bit faster? Last could steps he looked like he was transitioning to look at the clock. That guy looks like he could bet closer to high 4.1_ territory.
I prefer a current training camp hard knocks, this behind the scenes
Giants made a very fair offer for Maye. But as I said, it's just really hard to get a team that needs a franchise QB and can draft one at their pick to trade. A GM who does that risks having the pick they traded become a franchise QB for another team, which will absolutely and rightly get them fired. It might also mean they would never be considered for another GM job ever again.
What the offer confirms is that Schoen, Daboll, etc. are not sold on Jones. More proof is his contract, which has a $22M "out" after this year.
The Giants Insider with Jerry Foley and Chris Bisignano. Chris believes strongly they were trying to move up and snag Joe Alt. Entire QB play, to him, was a smoke screen.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
The Giants Insider with Jerry Foley and Chris Bisignano. Chris believes strongly they were trying to move up and snag Joe Alt. Entire QB play, to him, was a smoke screen.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
Alt was never their target and when someone as low-rung as Bisignano is the only "insider" claiming that, it's time to find a different podcast.
The Giants Insider with Jerry Foley and Chris Bisignano. Chris believes strongly they were trying to move up and snag Joe Alt. Entire QB play, to him, was a smoke screen.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
Alt was never their target and when someone as low-rung as Bisignano is the only "insider" claiming that, it's time to find a different podcast.
I like Jerry Foley, and tune out Chris.
But he's not the only person saying it. Adam Schefter was all over it.
The Giants Insider with Jerry Foley and Chris Bisignano. Chris believes strongly they were trying to move up and snag Joe Alt. Entire QB play, to him, was a smoke screen.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
Alt was never their target and when someone as low-rung as Bisignano is the only "insider" claiming that, it's time to find a different podcast.
Wow. I'm glad I don't listen to that podcast. What a moronic statement by Bisignano. Sure, they were going to trade up for Alt yet they didn't engage with the Cardinals at all once Maye was taken.
though i think he clarified that it was his opinion not sourced reporting. could be mixing that up though.
Sy doesn't believe the Giants were interested in trading up for Maye. Not sure why. Seems pretty clear to me.
Again, if the Giants were so enamored with Alt, why didn't they talk with Arizona? I believe it was reported Schoen didn't even call them once NE selected Maye.
though i think he clarified that it was his opinion not sourced reporting. could be mixing that up though.
I think you are right.
Sy seemed to be suggesting that since the OL had so many holes, and there were/are huge question marks surrounding a high investment like Neal, going for Alt would make sense.
RE: RE: i think sy said the same thing as bisangio
though i think he clarified that it was his opinion not sourced reporting. could be mixing that up though.
Sy doesn't believe the Giants were interested in trading up for Maye. Not sure why. Seems pretty clear to me.
Again, if the Giants were so enamored with Alt, why didn't they talk with Arizona? I believe it was reported Schoen didn't even call them once NE selected Maye.
i agree with you, i think this is pretty obvious. through 3 years schoen hasnt been all that concerned with hiding his thoughts/intentions. i very much doubt there was a super secret plan to move up for alt that has eluded every beat writer. drake maye was/is a really good prospect who they liked a lot and NE also liked enough to not be willing to draft down 3 slots while picking up another QB they allegedly also really liked with JJM.
Just got around to watching this now - I thought it was fascinating
-Loved Daboll quizzing the QBs in their interview. Really interesting how he changed it up on them live to make sure they really had knowledge rather just memorizing things, also cool how he'd go back to an early question later to make sure he had a good memory.
- Hannah WoW
- good seeing the real Daboll, how he relates to players and how really knowledgable he is about offense
Doubt it will since he was purposely causing copyright issues
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….
Doubt it will since he was purposely causing copyright issues
What do you mean?
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In comment 16550198 Rick in Dallas said:
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Doubt it will since he was purposely causing copyright issues
What do you mean?
He was playing music on his phone.
It is great Giants entertainment.
Five, every Tues night in July.
No, I'm not saying that's realistic or that I/we could run the Giants. But there are things I KNOW I couldn't do (be an actor or a frontman in a band, just a couple of many), but with a team of people around me?
Admit it, if you at any point thought to yourself watching episode one, "these aren't particularly riveting revelations any of these guys are having."
It all seemed somewhat "basic," which also made me wonder (because my thoughts went the direction they did), is this a good front office team we have here? I really don't know. I wasn't incredibly impressed, honestly. Did not get the impression there were any "rockstars" in the room, like you'd have with a Parcells of, slightly different bent, a true leader in Coughlin.
I hope things come together for this group. That's a lot more fun than the other way.
Link - ( New Window )
I hate that he's a Commander. "Throw a touchdown." That's hilarious.
Makes me a little nostalgic for that nutcase we had, who was that now, Matt in Syracuse? The guy who was absolutely fruit loops over front office machinations and maneuvers, and sleeper stars? That would be entertaining right now. In an oh god make it stop kind of way.
No, I'm not saying that's realistic or that I/we could run the Giants. But there are things I KNOW I couldn't do (be an actor or a frontman in a band, just a couple of many), but with a team of people around me?
Admit it, if you at any point thought to yourself watching episode one, "these aren't particularly riveting revelations any of these guys are having."
It all seemed somewhat "basic," which also made me wonder (because my thoughts went the direction they did), is this a good front office team we have here? I really don't know. I wasn't incredibly impressed, honestly. Did not get the impression there were any "rockstars" in the room, like you'd have with a Parcells of, slightly different bent, a true leader in Coughlin.
I hope things come together for this group. That's a lot more fun than the other way.
I think there are a few BBIers that could be in that room and come off intelligently. I also do not think it is a easy as it looks. It looks very mundane to the average viewer.
Is there a live option as well as delayed stream?
If I log on at 9 will I get the show?
Is there a live option as well as delayed stream?
If I log on at 9 will I get the show?
Is there a live option as well as delayed stream?
If I log on at 9 will I get the show?
Yes.
NVM. Had to click “Resume Ep. 1” and at the end it prompted me to begin Ep 2. Weird it wasn’t showing on the main page for Hard Knocks though.
I'm sure he was until they knew they could get their hands on Burns.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
He was definitely butt hurt at what the offers had been. Good for Schoen. Don’t pay for a 27 year old RB when your team is full of holes.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
His tone sucked. He wanted out.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
Yeah plus the convo with the Giants Media Director, where Schoen mentioned how he turned down a Bunch of money the year prior it seems like there was a rift between the two and the decision was certainly made that Barkley wanted out from the Giants. Who knows what happened, but Schoen certaibly comes off as the loudest voice against signing him and paying a RB a lot of money. I don’t think anyone other than ownership really wanted him here no matter the cost (Did you see the clip of Mara saying he would lose sleep at night if they don’t re-sign him?). Anyways, glad he is no longer on the team.
I really want Daboll to succeed here. I hope he gets a chance to work with a QB in the near future whom he and management select and can groom together. He certainly is the right guy for the job, just hope doesn’t get thrown out before then by another year or two of shit performance from the poor unit we have currently.
For a football nerd the interviews with Daniel's, Maye, and William's were like crack....
I could listen to these dudes talking x's and O's all day..
I thought Dabolls interviewing tactics were especially fascinating...having the QB change the play, change the conversation, then immediately ask them to recite the play from earlier in the conversation.
Fucking S tier stuff.
Other points I picked up
1) Giants view Corner has a huge need
2) Trade up to pick 3 was real with NE
2) Giants were interested in Christian Wilkins
3) Giants had some interest in retaining Mckinney
4) Giants are concerned Jones may not be ready until week 3/4
5) Giants felt unsure about Maliks personality. Jones approved Maliks talent.
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Barkley conversation toward the end on the phone with Schoen is really fascinating. Barkley's tone seemed odd, or distant, or maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
He was definitely butt hurt at what the offers had been. Good for Schoen. Don’t pay for a 27 year old RB when your team is full of holes.
But DO pay $160 million for a mediocre QB when your team's full of holes
Other points I picked up
1) Giants view Corner has a huge need
2) Trade up to pick 3 was real with NE
2) Giants were interested in Christian Wilkins
3) Giants had some interest in retaining Mckinney
4) Giants are concerned Jones may not be ready until week 3/4
5) Giants felt unsure about Maliks personality. Jones approved Maliks talent.
Yup, based on the first two episodes, expect CB to be high on next year's wish list. I expect DT to be too. (QB is a completely different discussion).
They did interview all of the QBs.
I was waiting for that.
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the hell did the Giants get the trade terms down on Burns?
to pay.
Yes, but that price came waaaaay down.
100%, and I agree completely with your comment on this was a great episode showing the personality and intellect of Brain Daboll. How can you not root for the guy, I truly hope he gets to groom the next Giants QB and doesn’t have the same fate as the 3 failures that came before him. He’s the guy you want here when they need to coach up a new franchise QB.
Surprised they were so into Wilkins. Excellent player but surprised he was such an option.
Surprised by lack of interest in trading for snead. He hasn’t come up once and he is arguably the best cb in the league. Understand Bowen said pass rush is most important and that’s where they focused but still surprised Snead hasn’t come up once.
These guys using stop watches and not having standard agreed upon times is absurd lol. This is a multi billion $ league and this is what they are using?
Would have loved to hear more in depth scouting reports.
Whether its confirmation bias or fact, it's JS sure did convinced himself it's a 27 year old running back and the data is bad when they hit this age. Through the first two episodes other Giants brass seemed a little warming to bring saqoun back.
Lastly, watching this also makes me think maybe Saqoun himself wanted to sign with the eagles as a final slap in the face.
Whether its confirmation bias or fact, it's JS sure did convinced himself it's a 27 year old running back and the data is bad when they hit this age. Through the first two episodes other Giants brass seemed a little warming to bring saqoun back.
Lastly, watching this also makes me think maybe Saqoun himself wanted to sign with the eagles as a final slap in the face.
When Schoen hung up, he knew Saquon was gone. And there clearly was some bad vibes.
His nubin love is full bloom. And rightfully so
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some may have found it boring, but I was fascinated by the pre-brief by the PR team. It's exactly how we did it in government.
100%, and I agree completely with your comment on this was a great episode showing the personality and intellect of Brain Daboll. How can you not root for the guy, I truly hope he gets to groom the next Giants QB and doesn’t have the same fate as the 3 failures that came before him. He’s the guy you want here when they need to coach up a new franchise QB.
Brian Daboll also chose to groom Daniel Jones. That's not a bad thing btw...shows there's more to Jones than many may give him credit for. Hope he stays healthy and gets better under this coach..would be one hell of a story.
Also the details of the conversation with Ed Berry was very cool. A lot of good stuff in there. The choir boy comments are pretty topical too.
Well, they only have one legit guy in Banks, and he still has a lot to improve on. New defensive regime coming in they probably feel like Banks might not be what they want in a #1CB. Banks was pretty much hand picked for Wink, and he’s no longer here. They will address both CB and DT/DE next year for sure. Only have so many holes you can fill.
Absolutely..could see why he was the guy NYG targeted if they went QB (of course in small snippets).
Do you think Daboll was kind of annoyed Daniel's misspoke the F vs X option twice consecutively? Lol
So how much pressure did he put on them in 2023 with Jones? (remember, Schoen is also pissed that he has to use the Franchise tag on Saquon so that tool was off the table).
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
With Azeez Ojulari your starting OLB again?
So how much pressure did he put on them in 2023 with Jones? (remember, Schoen is also pissed that he has to use the Franchise tag on Saquon so that tool was off the table).
Yea definitely could, and probably, is a factor...but I just think the fact that they didn't pick up the 5th year option meant that there was always a chance they'd be able to walk away if they truly wanted...
Now a lot changes in a year - was this regime as confident to stick to their guns back in the 2023 offseason as they are now? You might be totally right..but the optimist in me hopes otherwise I guess.
Two things that are crystal clear to me 1) a football front office operates so much like any other business 2) coaching is by far the most important and complicated component.
He does come off as bitter. But losing will also do that. And he has to come to terms with the wear-and-tear his body has already taken.
Giants should have traded him in at mid-season. I said as much before that season started. His trade value by Halloween that year was sky high. Of course, the fans would have rioted.
Sigh.
I couldn’t tell if they offered it or knows that’s what they would have to offer
I interpreted that as what it would take for Saquon to remain a Giant.
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the contract bit on Saquon at the end in the teaser. Sounds like the Giants did offer him 3/$36.
I couldn’t tell if they offered it or knows that’s what they would have to offer
I didn't hear it, but I saw the same thing posted on X as was posted above. I guess we'll find out next week.
Regardless, I firmly believe it was time to move on.
He banked 10M from the Giants in 2023, and then secured 26M in guarantees from the Eagles.
He raised his floor by 16.5M.
He banked 10M from the Giants in 2023, and then secured 26M in guarantees from the Eagles.
He raised his floor by 16.5M.
BTW, I heard privately that the Texans offered more.
The first two episodes, Schoen was wondering out loud if Saquon would really leave the Giants for an extra million per year or if he meant what he said about wanting to be a Giant for life. He ultimately left for the extra million per year. I mean, that’s simplifying it and we don’t know how the contract was structured but yeah, it sure looked like the Giants were very close. I had just assumed the Eagles offer blew the Giants offer away and that the Giants wouldn’t come close and made it easy for him to leave. That wasn’t the case, it seems.
All that wanting to be a Giant talk really does seem like total nonsense now.
Also Odunze showed why I wanted him so bad. That kid is a 10+ year foundation to an NFL roster. Very very impressive young man.
Also Odunze showed why I wanted him so bad. That kid is a 10+ year foundation to an NFL roster. Very very impressive young man.
NFL team … Not NFL Roster
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the contract bit on Saquon at the end in the teaser. Sounds like the Giants did offer him 3/$36.
I couldn’t tell if they offered it or knows that’s what they would have to offer
If they were just stating what it might take then my previous post can be ignored. I took it as him saying that’s the offer out there from the Giants.
For this episode the sticking points for me.
1. Saquan refused to say he would give the Giants the chance to match. Sounds like he never came off what he wanted last year or being tagged is what pushed him out.
2. Dabol is hard on QBs in the room with the X's and O's but he does have a relatable demeanor. He didn't get to test Jones before he was his QB, does Jones pass that test in Dabols mind?
3. Several references to the QBs being able to handle NY. Coupled with mentioning Jones approval of Nabers and I think this staff does still belive in Jones, for more then this year.
4. Odunze came off great. If we had selected him I would have been fine with it in April but would be running to buy an Odunze jersey tomorrow after this episode. Everything I want in a football player.
5. The Burns love is real. Idk if it's edited that way now that he's here or if he really was the pipe dream they seem to have had through this episode.
6. Dabol talks about watching Nabers tape and being impressed without mentioning Daniels. Either we knew he was gone or he wasn't on his mind after the interview. Interested on the timeliness there.
He banked 10M from the Giants in 2023, and then secured 26M in guarantees from the Eagles.
He raised his floor by 16.5M.
BTW, I heard privately that the Texans offered more.
Not surprising, and not surprising Barkley went to Philly. Close to his family and he clearly hates Schoen.
The fact Schoen chose the ‘go see what your market is, and give us the chance to match’ tact, which was wise, also probably disappointed Saquon.
I really think Saquon, who admirably worked hard to come back from his injuries, thought having a monster first 6 games last year should have earned him the payday he wanted from the Giants.
Unfortunately, the balance of the season proved yet again why it usually isn’t wise to give out monster FA money to RBs. No matter how much you may like a guy
Ari Meirov
@MySportsUpdate
In the teaser for next week, #Giants owner John Mara is shown saying, "I'll have a tough time sleeping if Saquon Barkley goes..."
GM Joe Schoen is also shown on the phone saying that if he offered a 3-year, $37.5M deal with $25M guaranteed, Barkley would be with the Giants.
I'm not sure if Schoen is asking if he would stay or saying he would stay. The full sequence will air next week.
Barkley signed with the #Eagles for 3 years, $37.75M, with $26M guaranteed and another $9M in available incentives.
Or if he pulled a Steve Smith by breaking his promise and signing with Philly without giving the Giants a chance...
That will be more important to how I feel about Saquon vs his tone on the call where he was clearly hoping to hear other news...
My subjective, opinionated take is that Schoen didn't really want Barkley back and Barkley didn't really want to come back.
Everything else seems like background noise to me.
Such a stupid comment.
@BobbySkinner_
Giants Hard Knocks Episode 2 thoughts
•No denying that the Giants wanted to trade up for Drake Maye
•Christian Wilkins probably is a Giant if Brian Burns wasn’t traded for
•Confirmed that Giants didn’t make an offer to Saquon & still haven’t gotten any sense of urgency from Schoen to keep him. Schoen seemed miffed that Saquon turned down 2023 offers
•Unclear where things really stood with Xavier McKinney after cap number was more than expected but he was also linked to Christian Wilkins
•Crazy how low Burns compensation was when they were convinced it would take a 1st or 2 2nds
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Eric, I wonder if Schoen is actually talking about last year.
My subjective, opinionated take is that Schoen didn't really want Barkley back and Barkley didn't really want to come back.
Everything else seems like background noise to me.
This.
Schoen in his absolute gut knows paying that position that contract hurts you in team building. Berry called him out on it over the phone - and I think he was right.
It also sounds like from a business perspective these guys have some bad blood after last offseason - it was a good thing for both parties to walk away.
@MySportsUpdate
·
27m
Drake Maye seemed to crush his interview with the #Giants, and Brian Daboll loved every second of it.
The Giants did try to trade up to No. 3, with the pick likely being Maye.
Again, this is fantastic content.
My subjective, opinionated take is that Schoen didn't really want Barkley back and Barkley didn't really want to come back.
Everything else seems like background noise to me.
Yeah, I think Schoen is being sarcastic and saying if "I would have offered that last year, Barkley would still be a Giant."
Everything Schoen did made it crystal clear he didn't want Barkley long term.
Joe said Nabers or Thomas?
Daboll said Nabers, that dudes a baller (no mention of Thomas).
Clear Nabers was a Daboll guy.
Joe said Nabers or Thomas?
Daboll said Nabers, that dudes a baller (no mention of Thomas).
Clear Nabers was a Daboll guy.
I think your spidey sense is spot on. I am willing to be that Daboll pushed for Nabers.
It does seem like that they were going to offer Christian Wilkins something.
On another note, I think Hannah Burnett is going to replace Kate Mara on BBI
Bowen didn’t come off as the swiftest. Actually, he kind of came off as goofy, IMO.
The Eagles, directly or indirectly were cozying up to Saquon right after the 2023 season ended. The Giants did the honorable thing not franchising him. He would have been more than bitter.
I've said it many times, Roc Nation messed him up with unrealistic $$ expectations, the previous year, then came the franchise tag. When Schoen called him this time, Saquon just wanted a divorce from the team - he wasn't going to get the money he wanted, got tired of being the only player on offense playing at a high level and he got tired of losing.
Very much so. Very unlike him, but it definitely seemed like he had one foot out the door. That snarky response of “I already told you where I want to be, so…” spoke volumes. He felt lowballed.
When Schoen said he spoke to Jones during the Combine about Nabers - I think that's what I heard - that was very telling.
I really like Daboll. He's just a football junkie. The best part of E2 was Daboll drilling the QBs.
Please give strength to Saquons ankles and knee ligaments. Amen.
He needs it. 3y for 46mm.
In Schoen I trust.
- We wanted to go up to #3 to select a QB. I think we would’ve been happy with either Maye or Daniels (you have to remember that at the time of the Combine, it was unclear who the Commanders would take). Both guys seemed to impress. Caleb seemed like the least impressive from what I saw.
- John Mara was pushing HARD to retain Barkley. Schoen seemed to be a lot more level-headed about the situation.
- Burns was the goal and if we had re-signed Barkley and McKinney, Burns wouldn’t be a Football Giant.
- the brass liked all three WRs. It’s not clear why they had Nabers over Odunze, but you could tell Daboll loved him. I think many loved Odunze too, but they went with the more talented one over the “choir boy”
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In comment 16550540 Toth029 said:
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Barkley conversation toward the end on the phone with Schoen is really fascinating. Barkley's tone seemed odd, or distant, or maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
He was definitely butt hurt at what the offers had been. Good for Schoen. Don’t pay for a 27 year old RB when your team is full of holes.
But DO pay $160 million for a mediocre QB when your team's full of holes
Shouldn’t have done either. Should have tagged DJ and let Barkley walk the season before. That’s what I was barking for but I’ve never liked Barkley at all.
When Schoen said he spoke to Jones during the Combine about Nabers - I think that's what I heard - that was very telling.
I think Nabers was the backup plan in case we couldn’t move up to #3. Hence asking what DJ thought. If anything, it shows me that there was absolutely no interest in JJ McCarthy. It was either trading up for Maye/Daniels or running it back with DJ for another year.
Daboll loves Nabers
Bowen loves Nubin
Henderson seemed to liked Phillips
But no denying the desire for QB. Rumors seemed accurate.
Schoen didn't want to pay Barkley.....and I suspect Barkley fucked the Giants. Mara is not happy. I was neutral, but my hate is growing.....F¥€£ Barkley!
I think Morgan is going to get heat in Carolina....Schoen is coming across as a decent negotiator.
I sense the injury/availability of Jones is bigger concern than he sucks.....from Giants perspective. "We can't lose 3 games if he is not ready". Curious to see their view of Lock.
They mentioned corner several times.....but FA big money offer toward Wikins, a DT and their big move of Burns. Talk is cheap, follow the money.
Next week will be very interesting!!!!
-For all those that wanted more Daboll this episode you sure got it vintage.
-Saquon wanted no part of being here, and Schoen wanted no part of keeping him so there was 0% chance he was ever coming back. End of story.
-Schoen is running this team. There wasn't a Mara anywhere to be found at the combine. The concept that old man Mara is making any consequential decision on player personnel is a joke.
-As everyone is saying moving up to #3 was very real. They loved Maye. When they couldn't move up it was gonna be a WR.
- I agree with the gut feeling that Daboll pushed real hard for Nabors and that probably clinched it because Odunze is a really really clean prospect. I'd expect Nabors to be involved with just about everything we do from minute one.
Lastly Eric I'm not just saying this because it's your site, but any football thread you're heavily involved with is a home run.
Episode 2 was much better than 1.
Dabs was terrific questioning QB ‘s at combine. Maye came off as very intelligent
What else struck me, not on Hard Knocks but Giants.com was the OL and TE interviews. We have legitimate veteran depth at TE, OL, something our best teams always had. I'm getting near Pollyanna territory but f it, we added a #1 WR, an Edge opposite Kayvon, two big skilled vet OGs, depth at TE and OL and more pieces in the secondary. And we have young dynamic WRs. It's all up to DJ now.
Tim McDonnell (the next John Mara) was at the combine and involved in discussions.
He sure sounded like he wanted nothing to do with the Giants when Schoen called him.
What a slight, the Giants offering him 3/$36 million.
/sarcasm
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Barkelys vibe on the phone with Joe was distant and disinterested. JS was trying his hardest to warm up the convo
Very much so. Very unlike him, but it definitely seemed like he had one foot out the door. That snarky response of “I already told you where I want to be, so…” spoke volumes. He felt lowballed.
Did anyone else wonder if "I already told you where I want to be, so..." meant either a) 'I have already told you how much I will agree to return to NYG for' OR b) 'I have already told you that with the NYG is where I want to play?' I wasn't exactly clear which it was. If it was the latter, then SB comes across looking pretty bad.
I think it has something to do with the Giants overall organizational philosophy, "once a giant, always a giant". You heard Schoen talking about ring of honor, these are all Mara traits.
Schoen's job is to find the balance between Mara and building a competitive team. So at the end of the day, he has to play the game with Barkley to satisfy ownership.
Just my opinion.
there is a reasonable argument both ways but i think an edge bender like burns is just too hard to find elsewhere. also a couple years younger than wilkins. there's a reason he got tagged and had trade value, players like him at that age do not hit the open market.
since last summer it's been clear schoen didnt want to bring barkley back. i hope motor works out and does a good job but i think schoen dropped the ball on that one. the deal barkley's team proposed last year, encompassing the $10m from tag, was fair. ed berry clearly saw the writing on the wall and i thought it was interesting when he asked schoen point blank if they wanted to move on he answered like natalie imbruglia. i give him credit for taking the less comfortable path, but i dont think that's going to provide much respite if barkley gains 2k yards and 10+ tds in philly this year. hopefully that OL implodes without kelce. schoen's entire strategy in that negotiation was reactive vs proactive. i would have liked to see more of daboll's thoughts on that but it seems like the giants put a wall up on that.
probably Rossetti. i believe ive heard some FO types in interviews say they think there are few future GMs in the giants FO and he's one of them.
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Eric, I wonder if Schoen is actually talking about last year.
My subjective, opinionated take is that Schoen didn't really want Barkley back and Barkley didn't really want to come back.
Everything else seems like background noise to me.
i think your first opinion is right and the second one is wrong. i think barkley wanted to come back and was hurt that the feeling wasnt mutual (going back to last summer, and then probably again that the giants never put an offer in front of him ahead of FA).
if schoen wanted him back i think he'd have put an offer in front of him before FA, even if it were just the same extension they'd offered prior but adjusted to the cap increase, the problem was they were so close to a deal last summer i think he couldnt do that without risking saquon would take it.
my big unknown in all this is daboll, if he wanted to keep barkley like it seems like he wanted nabers, i think barkley would be back. i could believe that he wanted to burn the boats and running back to force the shift he wants into a passing team.
The Daboll stuff with the QB prospects was pure gold. Schoen doing his job with Saquon but clearly didn’t want him going forward, despite the ownership sentiments. Looks like moving up for Maye was indeed the goal with Nabers as the clear fallback if they had to stay.
Schoen and Daboll in charge all the way.
I could watch this again today with no problem. Good stuff.
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If anything, it shows me that there was absolutely no interest in JJ McCarthy.
Which shows that "a lot of what was reported both in the media and by the asshats" wasn't true.
How could they have no interest in JJ McCarthy?
I could have sworn there was like a new JJ thread on here every other day linking the NYG to him. And remember that great Pro Day?
If I had to guess has to first preference of each:
Schoen - Maye
Daboll - Nabers
With that said, they both like Jones (I'd guess Schoen more). He got his contract and he's the QB here until he isn't. But, there clearly was interest in Maye.
What a great episode. Imagine not liking or watching this?
How about Saquon's agent asking Schoen if he'd prefer if Saquon left? Schoen's answer was telling. He didn't want him.
The slow half-smile on Bowen's face when his name was mentioned was great.
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the contract bit on Saquon at the end in the teaser. Sounds like the Giants did offer him 3/$36.
The first two episodes, Schoen was wondering out loud if Saquon would really leave the Giants for an extra million per year or if he meant what he said about wanting to be a Giant for life. He ultimately left for the extra million per year. I mean, that’s simplifying it and we don’t know how the contract was structured but yeah, it sure looked like the Giants were very close. I had just assumed the Eagles offer blew the Giants offer away and that the Giants wouldn’t come close and made it easy for him to leave. That wasn’t the case, it seems.
All that wanting to be a Giant talk really does seem like total nonsense now.
The contract Schoen was referring to was the mid-season 2022 offer. They didn't offer Barkley a contract for 2024.
I think Schoen was pissed(he sarcastically mentions the contract Barley turned down) and the amount they offered. He was clearly angry about the tag negotiations and wanted no part of it again this year. It seemed he was convincing himself not wanting Barkley back.
Yes, there was clearly acrimony between Schoen and Barkley.
I’m guessing Ryan Cowden
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If anything, it shows me that there was absolutely no interest in JJ McCarthy.
Which shows that "a lot of what was reported both in the media and by the asshats" wasn't true.
I think only one or maybe two asshat said we liked McCarthy
-For all those that wanted more Daboll this episode you sure got it vintage.
-Saquon wanted no part of being here, and Schoen wanted no part of keeping him so there was 0% chance he was ever coming back. End of story.
-Schoen is running this team. There wasn't a Mara anywhere to be found at the combine. The concept that old man Mara is making any consequential decision on player personnel is a joke.
-As everyone is saying moving up to #3 was very real. They loved Maye. When they couldn't move up it was gonna be a WR.
- I agree with the gut feeling that Daboll pushed real hard for Nabors and that probably clinched it because Odunze is a really really clean prospect. I'd expect Nabors to be involved with just about everything we do from minute one.
Lastly Eric I'm not just saying this because it's your site, but any football thread you're heavily involved with is a home run.
Wasn't that McDonald in the press box saying he saw Daboll run across the street?
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
I don't read comments much on Twitter but when I do, BBI is still the go-to place for football discussion. Giants fans on X are a trainwreck.
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was so much from the episode... hearing from the actual scouts was great too.
Seeing YOUNG scouts and FO personnel means that Schoen is really running his show. His call to Saquon's agent was no bullshit data. You could tell he was done with the bullshit and ready to spend where it matters. I'm more confident than ever in this bunch.
What else struck me, not on Hard Knocks but Giants.com was the OL and TE interviews. We have legitimate veteran depth at TE, OL, something our best teams always had. I'm getting near Pollyanna territory but f it, we added a #1 WR, an Edge opposite Kayvon, two big skilled vet OGs, depth at TE and OL and more pieces in the secondary. And we have young dynamic WRs. It's all up to DJ now.
Yes, for those who have not watched the OL and TE interviews with Schmeelk, I recommend them.
there is a reasonable argument both ways but i think an edge bender like burns is just too hard to find elsewhere. also a couple years younger than wilkins. there's a reason he got tagged and had trade value, players like him at that age do not hit the open market.
since last summer it's been clear schoen didnt want to bring barkley back. i hope motor works out and does a good job but i think schoen dropped the ball on that one. the deal barkley's team proposed last year, encompassing the $10m from tag, was fair. ed berry clearly saw the writing on the wall and i thought it was interesting when he asked schoen point blank if they wanted to move on he answered like natalie imbruglia. i give him credit for taking the less comfortable path, but i dont think that's going to provide much respite if barkley gains 2k yards and 10+ tds in philly this year. hopefully that OL implodes without kelce. schoen's entire strategy in that negotiation was reactive vs proactive. i would have liked to see more of daboll's thoughts on that but it seems like the giants put a wall up on that.
Can't operate on the basis on what Philly may do. That's how we ended up with Ben McAdoo.
Clearly, he believes he can coach Daniel Jones up to success. The whole narrative about talking to the Pats about moving up to #3 was all couched in "...we have to protect ourselves due to DJ's injury history." not that he's not their guy.
The dinner shrimp cocktail scene goes into the.trash bin labeled Wastes of Time.
Schoen is an interesting guy. Acts chill while he speaks stress. Not a table banger. Straight with Saquon and agent Berry on the phone. Coolly pragmatic about RB falloff in general. Prods others for input as a good leader should. Love that he's always watching tape of potential acquisitions. That's the job.
CB starter jokes were not funny to me.
Dabes running the 40 jokes a bit overdone but amusing.
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In comment 16550624 christian said:
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Eric, I wonder if Schoen is actually talking about last year.
My subjective, opinionated take is that Schoen didn't really want Barkley back and Barkley didn't really want to come back.
Everything else seems like background noise to me.
i think your first opinion is right and the second one is wrong. i think barkley wanted to come back and was hurt that the feeling wasnt mutual (going back to last summer, and then probably again that the giants never put an offer in front of him ahead of FA).
if schoen wanted him back i think he'd have put an offer in front of him before FA, even if it were just the same extension they'd offered prior but adjusted to the cap increase, the problem was they were so close to a deal last summer i think he couldnt do that without risking saquon would take it.
my big unknown in all this is daboll, if he wanted to keep barkley like it seems like he wanted nabers, i think barkley would be back. i could believe that he wanted to burn the boats and running back to force the shift he wants into a passing team.
I think Schoen offered him what was a fair deal last year (and based on what we know, it seems like it was). I think he personally got frustrated with Saquon's (and Roc Nation's stance). "Took 10 years off my life." Left a bad taste in his mouth.
Saquon's demeanor ever since his final press interaction seemed to suggest he was done with the Giants. The phone call on the show last night was even worse. Saquon was glad they let him go.
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If anything, it shows me that there was absolutely no interest in JJ McCarthy.
Which shows that "a lot of what was reported both in the media and by the asshats" wasn't true.
Except it's a TV show that they have to edit for time. The Giants interviewed McCarthy at the Combine and even McCarthy said he hit it out of the park with them.
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Bowen clearly loves Burns and Nubin.
The slow half-smile on Bowen's face when his name was mentioned was great.
For both.
If Brown does leave, it could be Rosetti or Crowden, but my money is on Dennis Hickey.
I thought Daniels was unimpressive in that interview too. He seemed like a skinny kid talking to a bunch of adults. Seems a bit quiet. Kind of matched the scouting report they gave on him earlier.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
I was thinking the same thing k2! I really wanted Rome because he just seemed like a professional and NOT a diva. Even on the show, that kid is ready to go! Here's to hoping Nabers will not get in trouble in NYC.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
I think Brown was saying to JS after watching Nabers on tape that they were expecting more of an aggressive player in the interview. I think that's where the great WRs aren't choirboy comment came from.
My take is-while publicly the Giants are not happy with the video-they know that's all part of the "dawg" that Daboll was looking for. Perhaps they wish Nabers was just a bit more discreet about it.
I’m very interested to see if Barkley actually did “circle back”.
If Brown does leave, it could be Rosetti or Crowden, but my money is on Dennis Hickey.
I thought Daniels was unimpressive in that interview too. He seemed like a skinny kid talking to a bunch of adults. Seems a bit quiet. Kind of matched the scouting report they gave on him earlier.
The Giants met with him on Easter. They were interested. They were more interested in Nabers.
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I'm not sure Brandon Brown leaves soon. I think he's a valuable asset, but I'm not sure he is seasoned enough yet to be an actual GM. (I also don't think Kafka may be out as soon as everyone thinks... if he interviews like he speaks to the press, boring... I'd like to see what his real personality is like).
If Brown does leave, it could be Rosetti or Crowden, but my money is on Dennis Hickey.
I think Joe thinks of him self as more of a draft guy and would put a guy more focused on Pro scouting as his number 2. What was interesting is as he saw the cap number he went straight to Rosetti not Brown.
Good point on the phone call.
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"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
I was thinking the same thing k2! I really wanted Rome because he just seemed like a professional and NOT a diva. Even on the show, that kid is ready to go! Here's to hoping Nabers will not get in trouble in NYC.
You can't get in trouble in NYC anymore.
I don't think it has anything to do about Jones. I don't think it's a poor reflection on any of the other QBs. They just wanted Nabers.
Nabers > QB4 is most likely how they looked at it.
I think Barkley, no matter what his representation and whoever else advised him, felt getting paid more than the equivalent of the franchise tag in 2023 and 2024 was the fair floor. I think that's where the 1-2 million apart came from last year. Twenty-two in guarantees was around that, I think he wanted a token gesture above that.
In the grand scheme of things the difference between guaranteeing 22M and 24M in seasons where the Giants guaranteed 82M to Jones, 67M to Thomas, 46.5M to Lawrence, and 76M to Burns just seems silly.
I don't think it has anything to do about Jones. I don't think it's a poor reflection on any of the other QBs. They just wanted Nabers.
Nabers > QB4 is most likely how they looked at it.
This thing is completely edited and the Giants have final approval on what we see and don't see.
So nitpicking this to death is a bit of an exercise in futility.
However, based on what we saw, I think Daboll loves Nabers. My guess is he was the guy pushing for him.
I think Barkley, no matter what his representation and whoever else advised him, felt getting paid more than the equivalent of the franchise tag in 2023 and 2024 was the fair floor. I think that's where the 1-2 million apart came from last year. Twenty-two in guarantees was around that, I think he wanted a token gesture above that.
In the grand scheme of things the difference between guaranteeing 22M and 24M in seasons where the Giants guaranteed 82M to Jones, 67M to Thomas, 46.5M to Lawrence, and 76M to Burns just seems silly.
Disagree. Schoen has his number. Saquon had his. Schoen reminded Barkley about his legacy and his own words about remaining a Giant for life. I would have done the same at the point (it was a last-ditch tool... I think he read the writing on the wall too).
However, Saquon is so overrated. He may have his best season Philly behind that OL. But he only had two really good seasons here. Two.
Daboll telling the other QBs to sling it... DJ needs to take note.
Sling, throw it deep, take chances.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
This coupled with watching a ton of Odunze last season and then seeing him in this episode has me really wishing we took him. Nabers seems like he is going to be a very high risk/high reward pick. Odunze ceiling may be lower by a smidge but his floor is absolutely higher by a mile. Barring injury he will be a hell of a player.
Really hope we got it right. All coaches think they can help players be who they need to be. It ain't that easy.
- Much like most of you, I don't think Saquon wanted to come back nor did Schoen want him back. Via Mara's appearance last week and in the "teaser" for next week, he clearly wanted Saquon back. Goes back to a comment I've made in the past about Mara, I don't think he mandates GM's do anything, but he "meddles" by making his feelings known and doesn't entirely stay out of things
- Clear interest in Maye. They may still like Daniel, but they clearly don't like him that much or have long term plans for him if they were that interested in Drake
- Before the draft I thought the Odunze vs Nabers conversation was interesting. Nabers was everything you want on the field while Odunze was everything you want off it (plus pretty damn good on it). This week's episode showed that. Gun to their heads, Schoen/Daboll took the guy they thought was better on the field
- I'm guessing we'll be seeing a lot of Hannah Burnett over the next 3 episodes and she may come out the big winner from this. She's came off very well
- Bowen's face when asked about Brian Burns told you everything you need to know about how he feels about Spider. I'd love to play poker against Bowen
- I couldn't imagine what a disaster this series would have been with Gettleman/Judge
I think Barkley, no matter what his representation and whoever else advised him, felt getting paid more than the equivalent of the franchise tag in 2023 and 2024 was the fair floor. I think that's where the 1-2 million apart came from last year. Twenty-two in guarantees was around that, I think he wanted a token gesture above that.
In the grand scheme of things the difference between guaranteeing 22M and 24M in seasons where the Giants guaranteed 82M to Jones, 67M to Thomas, 46.5M to Lawrence, and 76M to Burns just seems silly.
Disagree. Schoen has his number. Saquon had his. Schoen reminded Barkley about his legacy and his own words about remaining a Giant for life. I would have done the same at the point (it was a last-ditch tool... I think he read the writing on the wall too).
I think Schoen never wanted to commit to Barkley after 2023. He's repeated the data on 27-year-olds in each episode.
You don't lose a player you want to keep over the 1-2M gap in guarantees reported last year. And the poor me shit because the negotiations were hard is also a little pathetic. Oh poor Joe, negotiating was hard. Wah.
I think the offer in 2023 was a non-offer, and I don't think they would have matched anything except a ridiculously low offer in 2024.
I don't even like Barkley, but it's so obvious Schoen was doing the minimum to keep the appearance up they wanted Barkley.
And keep this in mind - if the reports are true that Barkley would have accepted 3/33M with 23M guaranteed.
The Giants paid Barkley 10.1M guaranteed on 2023, and then gave Singletary 2/16.5M with 9.5M fully guaranteed. 27.5M with 20.6M.
Again I don't even like Barkley, but he's certainly worth the incremental 2.4M in guarantees.
Exactly why is Nabers a problem for some on BBI?
(And the only thing they said on the show last night was they had to get to know his personality more).
- Before the draft I thought the Odunze vs Nabers conversation was interesting. Nabers was everything you want on the field while Odunze was everything you want off it (plus pretty damn good on it). This week's episode showed that. Gun to their heads, Schoen/Daboll took the guy they thought was better on the field
Those top three WRs are really 1A, 1AA and 1AAA. Any one would have been a great pick. I preferred Odunze because I think a Larry Fitzgerald type would be best for the team, but just as pleased with Nabers (I also thought Harrison came across really well in the show but didn't think the Giants had a chance to pick him).
- I couldn't imagine what a disaster this series would have been with Gettleman/Judge
It certainly would have been more humorous. Indistinguishable from Curb Your Enthusiasm probably.
I know what Schoen said, but Devin Singletary turns 27 in September.
They made Barkley a big offer last year. Then they franchised him. They publicly said they were not fielding trade offers for him.
Schoen's own words show that he is miffed that Saquon didn't take the deal.
Only on BBI were we focused on other players.
The obvious choice from the start was Nabers. We all should have known better.
We're talking about a guy who some scouts had above Harrison.
Schoen should have taken the "test the market" approach with Barkley last year. It would have been better since the RB market was worse last year too. Franchise Jones and decide if you want to match any offer Barkley got.
I admit it would have been more challenging doing that off of 2022.
Schoen should have taken the "test the market" approach with Barkley last year. It would have been better since the RB market was worse last year too. Franchise Jones and decide if you want to match any offer Barkley got.
I admit it would have been more challenging doing that off of 2022.
I agree with Biteymax above... it's clear Mara uses passive aggressive pressure on the GM. I'm not sure Mara would have OKed them letting Saquon test the market last year (players who test the market are usually gone).
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Some of my takeaways
- Before the draft I thought the Odunze vs Nabers conversation was interesting. Nabers was everything you want on the field while Odunze was everything you want off it (plus pretty damn good on it). This week's episode showed that. Gun to their heads, Schoen/Daboll took the guy they thought was better on the field
Those top three WRs are really 1A, 1AA and 1AAA. Any one would have been a great pick. I preferred Odunze because I think a Larry Fitzgerald type would be best for the team, but just as pleased with Nabers (I also thought Harrison came across really well in the show but didn't think the Giants had a chance to pick him).
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- I couldn't imagine what a disaster this series would have been with Gettleman/Judge
It certainly would have been more humorous. Indistinguishable from Curb Your Enthusiasm probably.
Agree with the WRs, I honestly would have been more than happy with any of the three, however I think if you watch what Daboll did in Buffalo, Nabers clearly has more of a skill set that he's looking for. If you watch Diggs and how he moved him inside and out, Nabers absolutely perfect for that role and dare I say has more upside.
While Odunze would still produce, I can't pick out a role in the offense that would perfectly fit his skill set like I can with Nabers.
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I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
Schoen should have taken the "test the market" approach with Barkley last year. It would have been better since the RB market was worse last year too. Franchise Jones and decide if you want to match any offer Barkley got.
I admit it would have been more challenging doing that off of 2022.
I agree with Biteymax above... it's clear Mara uses passive aggressive pressure on the GM. I'm not sure Mara would have OKed them letting Saquon test the market last year (players who test the market are usually gone).
I'm coming close to tagging him with the moniker of "Meddling Mara"
Again, I don't even like Barkley. But it's weird to lose a player you like over a reported difference of 1M-2M in guarantees. If the reason for that is frustration from the negotiations, Schoen needs to find a new profession.
The outcome is weird. He'll end up paying a few million less for Barkley + Singletary at similar ages for the 2023 and 2024 seasons for what he could have paid for two seasons of Barkley.
Again, I don't even like Barkley. But it's weird to lose a player you like over a reported difference of 1M-2M in guarantees. If the reason for that is frustration from the negotiations, Schoen needs to find a new profession.
The outcome is weird. He'll end up paying a few million less for Barkley + Singletary at similar ages for the 2023 and 2024 seasons for what he could have paid for two seasons of Barkley.
George Young was even worse. He had his red line and wouldn't budge. Different era, but it seemed to really bug him that a player would even dare to ask for more money than Young was offering.
I think it's pretty clear that Schoen felt the franchise was already allocating too much money to one running back. If you accept that, his position is easier to understand. Schoen was already above his comfort zone. If Mara wasn't nagging him, it probably would not have gotten even that far.
2. Considerable injury history over 6 seasons
3. Definitely lost speed after knee injury.
4. As I said above in thread: Schoen over Saquon and Saquon over Giants. Both wanted to move on…
I’m not a Saquon hater so I hope he revives his career in Philly. He is in a great situation on that diverse offense. The main problem was he was drafted number 2 by our idiot GM
And for the Giants I hope Singletary has a great injury free season.
My guess is privately Schoen's view is something like:
Dude, I don't even want you here, and the only reason I offered this much is because my boss keeps coming in my office telling me how much he loves you.
The worst outcome for Schoen is Philly validating Mara's perspective. And if Barkley has a huge season, it will be a credibility eroding problem for Schoen in Mara's eyes.
I thought Daniels was unimpressive in that interview too. He seemed like a skinny kid talking to a bunch of adults. Seems a bit quiet. Kind of matched the scouting report they gave on him earlier.
Daniels comment about how he would handle NYC pressure was funny "Well, I did play in Death Valley" ... yeah, ok kid.
Shoen, damn auto correct.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
The frustration of dealing with Barkley, calling his Giant for Life bluff, and pressure from ownership all couldn't be more clear IMO
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In comment 16550747 Biteymax22 said:
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Some of my takeaways
- Before the draft I thought the Odunze vs Nabers conversation was interesting. Nabers was everything you want on the field while Odunze was everything you want off it (plus pretty damn good on it). This week's episode showed that. Gun to their heads, Schoen/Daboll took the guy they thought was better on the field
Those top three WRs are really 1A, 1AA and 1AAA. Any one would have been a great pick. I preferred Odunze because I think a Larry Fitzgerald type would be best for the team, but just as pleased with Nabers (I also thought Harrison came across really well in the show but didn't think the Giants had a chance to pick him).
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- I couldn't imagine what a disaster this series would have been with Gettleman/Judge
It certainly would have been more humorous. Indistinguishable from Curb Your Enthusiasm probably.
Agree with the WRs, I honestly would have been more than happy with any of the three, however I think if you watch what Daboll did in Buffalo, Nabers clearly has more of a skill set that he's looking for. If you watch Diggs and how he moved him inside and out, Nabers absolutely perfect for that role and dare I say has more upside.
While Odunze would still produce, I can't pick out a role in the offense that would perfectly fit his skill set like I can with Nabers.
Good points!
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
I'd be shocked if Victor Cruz didn't go to strip clubs.
They probably liked Wilkins. But obviously not more than Burns since they could have signed him for less than Burns, and kept the draft capital. But I think the threat of Wilkins is how we went from two 1’s to “at least two twos” to a two and five.
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It’s clear, he’s more OBJ than Victor Cruz, personality wise, right? Most alph receivers are like that, which was mentioned in last nights episode.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
I'd be shocked if Victor Cruz didn't go to strip clubs.
I’d be even more shocked if the Giants passed on a player because he liked to look at tits.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
You know what's fucking gold? Imagine that scenario and swap in the Dave Gettleman!
Not good for Rosetti - ( New Window )
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
I 100% agree. It's total conjecture of course, but all the pieces fit. It looks to me like Schoen's directive in the 2023 offseason was to keep both Barkley and Jones, and Schoen rightly wanted to sign Barkley and franchise Jones (if Jones wouldn't take a reasonable deal).
Barkley fucked that plan by demanding an extra year or whatever (after signing with the Eables Barkley said he got the 4th guaranteed year that he wanted, i.e. 2023 with the Giants and the 3 years with the Eagles) so Schoen had to pivot with little time to sign Jones to a deal that wouldn't screw the 2023 cap (barley eating up $12 million by getting the FT), but because Jones's camp was playing hardball and knew they had all the leverage (time running out, no more franchise tag), Jone's deal ended up with a big cap hit in 2024.
That's why Schoen kept mentioning the $40 million. He is freakin annoyed, IMO, that he is stuck with Jones on what is now his THIRD prove-it year, except now he has to pay Jones $40 million to prove his worth. He couldn't let Jones walk in FA because Mara wanted him on the team (again, just conjecture, but certainly looks that way based on what we've seen so far).
I'm still unsure of the clinical definition of difference-maker, but I'd hope any player they contemplating pursuing in the 100M+ range met that criteria.
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but the pre-brief between Schoen and the PR department was gold.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
You know what's fucking gold? Imagine that scenario and swap in the Dave Gettleman!
Ha
I wonder if they do pre-briefs with Mara. And I wonder what role Pat Hanlon has in all of this.
Of course, the opposite can be true, that the buck stops with Schoen and he screwed up. But I wonder...
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
The frustration of dealing with Barkley, calling his Giant for Life bluff, and pressure from ownership all couldn't be more clear IMO
This is such a great post and something I've tried to articulate, but you do it brilliantly here.
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In comment 16550786 Shecky said:
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It’s clear, he’s more OBJ than Victor Cruz, personality wise, right? Most alph receivers are like that, which was mentioned in last nights episode.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
I'd be shocked if Victor Cruz didn't go to strip clubs.
I’d be even more shocked if the Giants passed on a player because he liked to look at tits.
That's not the concern. It's that he knowingly broke the law to do it. And he already had a gun arrest. Coincidence or pattern? Too early to tell.
@DDuggan21
Leftover over thoughts from the second episode of Hard Knocks:
• Last night’s episode exceeded expectations on what they’d cover. Don’t see how they avoid revealing who they were targeting in a trade up now.
• We had another prominent member of the front office talk with uncertainty about who the QB would be. Brandon Brown on handling Nabers’ personality this week, Tim McDonnell on the QB leaning on the run game last week.
• Christian Wilkins was a more serious consideration than anyone realized. So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?
• Will be interesting to see how the Burns negotiations evolved. Schoen indicated he offered two seconds at the combine. How did he get down to a 2 and a 5 from there?
• If any of the concerns with Nabers’ personality prevent him from reaching his potential, it will be easy to second guess the decision to take him over Rome Odunze whose intangibles were “everything you want.”
• The lack of investment at corner continues to stick out. Don’t think they’ll put Schoen there. Could still see them spend on a vet there.
@JordanRaanan
Some thoughts off episode 2 of Hard Knocks:
— Seems pretty obvious the Giants and Joe Schoen were ready to move on from Saquon and he was done with them. That’s OK, too. Best for both sides.
— Surprised they showed Schoen going to talk with Patriots at their suite during combine about the No. 3 pick. Great and telling content.
— If the Giants didn’t land Brian Burns it seems the next option was to sign Christian Wilkins. 👀
— Schoen and the Giants thought it would cost two second-round picks or a first-rounder for Burns. Schoen did well in that trade.
@art_stapleton
Marvin Harrison refusing to take the cheese from Mike Groh in the Combine interview was low key smooth. Seemed obvious the question was the plant to see if Marv would; they very likely knew he wouldn't.
Daniels comment about how he would handle NYC pressure was funny "Well, I did play in Death Valley" ... yeah, ok kid.
I don't think Daniels was saying Baton Rouge was NYC. To me, he was suggesting he's used to playing for a program with high expectations.
LSU has a very noisy fan and alumni base. They aren't interested in playing in the Gator or Citrus Bowl. It's the F4 or bust. Hell, they ran two national championship coaches out of there very quicky - Les Miles and Ed Orgeron - after they hit some headwinds.
One more thing. I'm so tired of this "NYC is so hard to play in" mantra. The NY/NJ/CT media has lost significant MPHs off their fastball. Some of the questions they ask are laughable. And players are more prepared than ever to give canned, generic answers. This organization needs to worry less about this myth and get the most talented people.
I didn't think he came off as well as Maye, but there are some who think he did. Shows you how subjective this is.
Refreshing they didn't. It was no secret, DJ even got asked about it in the offseason. Gave a reasonable answer.
I'd imagine if they did get a QB.....There would be about 3x hours that we WOULD* have seen that did not make the cut.
Lame answer....but I feel like all 3 top WRs are going to be very good in the league.
Odunze has top intangibles, but let's be honest here, he was saying what he knew what he had to say.
I also think players like Burns getting paid 150 raised the cost of a player like Wilkins a few days later.
That seemed a bit strange to me. It's not like Schoen is the press secretary for the White House. JFC, it's football and you run the team.
I can see the importance of using that team for players, especially because many players are so young. But for an executive like Schoen, he should be able to deal with a football press conference without prepping with a PR team.
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10:12 am : link : reply
it interesting that people have a different take on the interaction with Jayden Daniels.
I didn't think he came off as well as Maye, but there are some who think he did. Shows you how subjective this is.
Im with you there. While Daniels "Throw a TD pass" got a smile from Daboll - I'd imagine he was looking for a more refined question.
I interview people all the time - and Rome's answer seemed beyond canned. I actually prefered Nabers being more upfront, himself.
All very subjective.
A lot has been written about Saquon's attitude during the call with Schoen. I wonder whether he knew that his conversation was being recorded. NJ law does not require notice as long as one party consents, but I would think a TV show like Hard Knocks in order to be fair would let all parties know the conversation was being recorded.
If Saquon did know, that knowledge alone could have contributed to his "attitude".
Odunze has top intangibles, but let's be honest here, he was saying what he knew what he had to say.
I give Odunze credit for being prepared, and for the most part he sounded genuine. From all pre-draft reports, he is a kid with very high character and a team leader.
I've heard quite a few interviews with Maye in the pre-draft process. He always sounded solid and measured, but he blew me away in that 90 second clip with the Giants staff. He was on it.
However, he's smart enough to know what the right response should be too.
****
Pivoting to Nabers... was Nabers smart enough to honestly admit he hates losing more than he likes winning?
That's usually a canned response too.
But if not, that's the kind of player we need. That's what Bill Parcells actually looked for.
Odunze has top intangibles, but let's be honest here, he was saying what he knew what he had to say.
I think that he was well spoken also helped make a great imprewsion. Not at all an issue with the direction they took, he was just a very impressive interview with the tape to back it up.
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worth the price of admission. wilkins and #39 is tempting but if you look at what was still on the board it's less clear. the most tempting alternative wasnt a player but the trade the rams did giving up 2 seconds for 1, which then pushes that pick below nubin any way. also would have voided the mckinney comp pick next year so not totally free.
there is a reasonable argument both ways but i think an edge bender like burns is just too hard to find elsewhere. also a couple years younger than wilkins. there's a reason he got tagged and had trade value, players like him at that age do not hit the open market.
since last summer it's been clear schoen didnt want to bring barkley back. i hope motor works out and does a good job but i think schoen dropped the ball on that one. the deal barkley's team proposed last year, encompassing the $10m from tag, was fair. ed berry clearly saw the writing on the wall and i thought it was interesting when he asked schoen point blank if they wanted to move on he answered like natalie imbruglia. i give him credit for taking the less comfortable path, but i dont think that's going to provide much respite if barkley gains 2k yards and 10+ tds in philly this year. hopefully that OL implodes without kelce. schoen's entire strategy in that negotiation was reactive vs proactive. i would have liked to see more of daboll's thoughts on that but it seems like the giants put a wall up on that.
Can't operate on the basis on what Philly may do. That's how we ended up with Ben McAdoo.
i wasnt resigning barkley to keep him from philly, i was resigning him last summer bc i thought the price was reasonable for a good player. we have no way of knowing what was doable with the giants (i.e. would he have taken less than he ended up with before hitting open market?) but the way philly did his contract the cap hit is the same this year as singletarys, if they wanted to bring barkley back there were easy ways to do it.
I think Schoen offered him what was a fair deal last year (and based on what we know, it seems like it was). I think he personally got frustrated with Saquon's (and Roc Nation's stance). "Took 10 years off my life." Left a bad taste in his mouth.
Saquon's demeanor ever since his final press interaction seemed to suggest he was done with the Giants. The phone call on the show last night was even worse. Saquon was glad they let him go.
Barkley offered the giants what ended up being a deal a lot lower than what he got, so is it not fair to also say barkley offered the nyg a "fair deal"?
if you worked hard for a company for 6 years and by the end they werent even making offers to keep you because they were torn whether you were worth it, even after you'd done things to make clear you wanted to stay and made them a fair offer, wouldnt you find that frustrating?
schoen is the one with the power to decide whether barkley would stay, not the other way around and it's clear he had no enthusiasm about the prospect of paying a 27 year old rb. as far as the negotiation taking years off schoen's life, suck it up that's the job. how many years off FO lives do we think strahan took back in the day? odell? etc.
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In comment 16550787 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 16550786 Shecky said:
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It’s clear, he’s more OBJ than Victor Cruz, personality wise, right? Most alph receivers are like that, which was mentioned in last nights episode.
But they said they like him, but need to do more digging into his personality etc. the fact that they drafted him, tells you everything you need to know. They dug, and drafted him. Over an almost equally talented WR who couldn’t be more clean personality wise.
Clear, the FO was comfortable with Nabers personality.
I'd be shocked if Victor Cruz didn't go to strip clubs.
I’d be even more shocked if the Giants passed on a player because he liked to look at tits.
That's not the concern. It's that he knowingly broke the law to do it. And he already had a gun arrest. Coincidence or pattern? Too early to tell.
So, Giants should avoid drafting anyone who enters a bar or strip club underage?????
We may be 0-17, but listen to our choir boys sing 🤣
- Mara was the one that wanted Barkley, not Schoen/Daboll
- Barkley claimed we never made him an offer, he lied, it just wasn't as high as the Eagles
- Schoen clearly takes the "modern NFL" stance that RB's shouldn't have a large cap allocation
I wish Barkley well in his next stop and have no hard feelings against him, I also wouldn't have taken that contract to play so close to home. But we need to accept a very simple reality (maybe Mara needs to accept it): We didn't win with Barkley, so rather than double down on a proven loosing strategy, its best to move on to something else.
- Mara was the one that wanted Barkley, not Schoen/Daboll
- Barkley claimed we never made him an offer, he lied, it just wasn't as high as the Eagles
- Schoen clearly takes the "modern NFL" stance that RB's shouldn't have a large cap allocation
I wish Barkley well in his next stop and have no hard feelings against him, I also wouldn't have taken that contract to play so close to home. But we need to accept a very simple reality (maybe Mara needs to accept it): We didn't win with Barkley, so rather than double down on a proven loosing strategy, its best to move on to something else.
It doesn't bug me, but Saquon clearly lied. It's on tape.
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"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
I was thinking the same thing k2! I really wanted Rome because he just seemed like a professional and NOT a diva. Even on the show, that kid is ready to go! Here's to hoping Nabers will not get in trouble in NYC.
this is speculation, but in his interview Rome said all the exact right things if you would have scripted out the right answers perfectly - and i get the feeling with daboll he connects with guys who he views as more real/edgy. barkley was more the former too. i think daboll likes more of the pirate ship ethos.
re nabers there were valid questions w/ him (esp the gun charge on bourbon street). things like that and the strip club are the types of things that come with picking a younger player without the understanding of what its like to have the kind of media attention he's going to get. in interviews he sounds all about football so we have to hope it's just a learning curve.
i thought rossetti made the strongest push a couple times, and he's both the guy in charge of pro scouting and obviously ended up pretty prescient re the eagles.
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is a controversial subject on this site, but in the first two episodes, it is very telling to me that the two guys making the biggest push to keep Saquon are Mara and McDonald. (and this is after the edits were approved... makes you wonder what they left out).
i thought rossetti made the strongest push a couple times, and he's both the guy in charge of pro scouting and obviously ended up pretty prescient re the eagles.
You are correct. Rosetti did too in that one meeting with Schoen in his office.
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In comment 16550757 Sean said:
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I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
Schoen should have taken the "test the market" approach with Barkley last year. It would have been better since the RB market was worse last year too. Franchise Jones and decide if you want to match any offer Barkley got.
I admit it would have been more challenging doing that off of 2022.
I agree with Biteymax above... it's clear Mara uses passive aggressive pressure on the GM. I'm not sure Mara would have OKed them letting Saquon test the market last year (players who test the market are usually gone).
I'm coming close to tagging him with the moniker of "Meddling Mara"
This is the essence of the problem. It’s not passive aggression, it’s the boss doing what bosses do when they hire a direct report/decision maker that doesn’t have clear direction and every decision is a series of hallway conversations making sure how much support the boss is prepared to supply.
That embarrassing whining in episode 1 when Mara considered #26 leaving is exhibit “Z”. I’m sure the previous 25 exhibits were similar stomach gurgling over Schoen suggesting they trade him last season or let him similarly test the market.
Schoen is in an extreme “manage up” case study.
Praying they put the Ravens on camera in an offseason. Bisciotti and Ozzie invented the “we love you and want the best for you, but we have a cap to manage so please bring your best deal back and we’ll talk”
With respect to Giants having a final edit - it’s almost as if they intentionally left in scenes to make it clear the Mara family wanted to pay Saquon. Comes across as setting up Schoen as the bad guy
Maybe I’m over thinking it, but it came across as thinly veiled pettiness to me
I still can’t get past the “what’s our identity on offense without Saquon” from Ep 1.
Our identity with Saquon has been one of the most pathetic offenses in the NFL. How is that something to cling to?
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I think Schoen offered him what was a fair deal last year (and based on what we know, it seems like it was). I think he personally got frustrated with Saquon's (and Roc Nation's stance). "Took 10 years off my life." Left a bad taste in his mouth.
Saquon's demeanor ever since his final press interaction seemed to suggest he was done with the Giants. The phone call on the show last night was even worse. Saquon was glad they let him go.
Barkley offered the giants what ended up being a deal a lot lower than what he got, so is it not fair to also say barkley offered the nyg a "fair deal"?
if you worked hard for a company for 6 years and by the end they werent even making offers to keep you because they were torn whether you were worth it, even after you'd done things to make clear you wanted to stay and made them a fair offer, wouldnt you find that frustrating?
The difference here though is that since Barkley was drafted, the Giants paid him more money than any other in the NFL got paid, except for McCaffrey and Elliot. Because he was the #2 overall pick, Barkley's rookie contract was as big or bigger than practically every other RB's 2nd contract. That Barkley should be "frustrated" that the Giants paid nearly $49 million is not reasonable.
And let's be real, Barkley didn't deserve a contract comparable to McCaffrey's 2nd contract because Barkley is not as good a player. And Elliot's 2nd contract is a warning, not something to follow.
They probably liked Wilkins. But obviously not more than Burns since they could have signed him for less than Burns, and kept the draft capital. But I think the threat of Wilkins is how we went from two 1’s to “at least two twos” to a two and five.
i think this is probably exactly right. having his college teammate dex and having previously had him paired with a big cap chunk to leonard williams probably made it a pretty strong argument.
The difference here though is that since Barkley was drafted, the Giants paid him more money than any other in the NFL got paid, except for McCaffrey and Elliot. Because he was the #2 overall pick, Barkley's rookie contract was as big or bigger than practically every other RB's 2nd contract. That Barkley should be "frustrated" that the Giants paid nearly $49 million is not reasonable.
And let's be real, Barkley didn't deserve a contract comparable to McCaffrey's 2nd contract because Barkley is not as good a player. And Elliot's 2nd contract is a warning, not something to follow.
what the giants chose to pay barkley in the past (on a slot rookie deal) has no bearing on what his value was past that contract. last year the giants tagged him at 10m gtd for 1 year, the negotiation started there.
and barkley's contract ask of the giants last year was not a CMC deal. it was less than he got from philly, which also wasnt a CMC deal.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Yup, I loved that. I worked at a large media company in a past life and I was around some of the bigwigs sitting with the PR team and prepping them for questions and how to answer/evade/redirect.
I'm not surprised by this, because when Schoen says he doesn't listen to sports radio, I believe him. So he needed to be coached up on the conversations on twitter. It also gives you a perspective if Schoen or Daboll ever go off script or get stunned by something, you can tell that it wasn't on their prep and they have to think on their feet.
This show is a gift to the dog days of July.
Quote:
but the pre-brief between Schoen and the PR department was gold.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Yup, I loved that. I worked at a large media company in a past life and I was around some of the bigwigs sitting with the PR team and prepping them for questions and how to answer/evade/redirect.
I'm not surprised by this, because when Schoen says he doesn't listen to sports radio, I believe him. So he needed to be coached up on the conversations on twitter. It also gives you a perspective if Schoen or Daboll ever go off script or get stunned by something, you can tell that it wasn't on their prep and they have to think on their feet.
The jokes about X/Twitter were funny... I wonder if that PR guy reads BBI. (he he he)
When Daboll says he used copyrighted music so they couldn't tape him, it makes you wonder about all of the REALLY juicy stuff.
- Mara was the one that wanted Barkley, not Schoen/Daboll
- Barkley claimed we never made him an offer, he lied, it just wasn't as high as the Eagles
- Schoen clearly takes the "modern NFL" stance that RB's shouldn't have a large cap allocation
I can't tell if Schoen finally had an epiphany on that or it's always been his position. Because there were signs/facts that Schoen would have signed Barkley to a multi-year deal, and the differences between his position and Team Barkley's wasn't huge. And I don't think that would have been a good outcome.
There were a lot of competing interests at Giants Way HQ on Barkley. Way too many people, especially the family, are stuck in the 80s with their view of the RB position and love the idea of marketing SB.
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
Nabers came across very authentic in that interview. Was honest about losing, and about wanting the ball.
If you say you are torn, you already know the answer.
If you say you are torn, you already know the answer.
Barkley's agent*
Daniels was saying that he is used to playing for a program with enormous expectations.
And I could easily argue LSU has the highest expectations in the country. If you don't agree, you don't understand the football culture in Louisiana...
I didn't think he came off as well as Maye, but there are some who think he did. Shows you how subjective this is.
Maye was much more impressive and quicker in response to the plays. Doesn't mean he will be better. But he came across better.
and barkley's contract ask of the giants last year was not a CMC deal. it was less than he got from philly, which also wasnt a CMC deal.
Umm, what? From PFT:
Link - ( New Window )
New York City market for professional sports is a different ball game. Daniels said - well I played in Death Valley and I talk to my family about it.
Best answer - IMO - would have been - I understand that playing for the New York Giants brings high expectations and I have high expectations for myself. If we are losing, I'm going to do the best I can to correct it, be a leader, address things head on, expectations are high. I hate losing.
Instead, he said well I played college ball for LSU.
Again - I guess it's an OK answer. Just somewhat of a cop out IMO. These college kids at big programs are given every single thing to be able to succeed.
Quote:
Thought it was telling when Barkley asked Schoen straight up, do you go to sleep really wanting this guy on the team or not? Schoen said "I'm torn."
If you say you are torn, you already know the answer.
Barkley's agent*
100%
It was a good question by a veteran agent to put Schoen on the spot
It’s like a girl asking if you love her…if you’re “torn”, the answer is no
I have no issue with that answer. The pressure playing for most SEC teams is not really different than playing in NYC, which gets way overblown, especially the Giants.
It's not going to a club (I mean how many dudes have NOT done that) or even an image that's the problem. I have no problem with him doing that at all. But filming yourself like that with a wad of cash and having it rain $$ bills and putting it on Tik Tok/Instagram? Probably not something everyone would do.... lol
I'm still unsure of the clinical definition of difference-maker, but I'd hope any player they contemplating pursuing in the 100M+ range met that criteria.
So now we're not just twisting facts, but reality itself?
Rossetti said Wilkins was a "very good player" but not a "difference making pass rusher".
The team spent more money and more picks on what kind of player in Brian Burns again? was i hearing things or did the bowen describe him as an "elite pass rusher" in yesterday's episode? if bowen felt the same way about wilkins, why didn't they sign him for less and keep the pick? why didnt miami tag him and trade him like carolina did burns?
On Barkley, the mistakes were made last year. First, they had to tag DJ and offer SB a contract which would have simply guaranteed the money from two franchise tags. Which is exactly what the Eagles just did. Instead Schoen played hard ball with Barkley over absolute peanuts while simultaneously awarding DJ the most undeserved and massive overpayment to any player in Giants history. And then, when the 2023 season was clearly over at the trade deadline, Schoen had to trade SB. Not only to get some value for him, but also to at least try to control where SB's future would be. I am certain they could have gotten a day two pick for him from a team like Baltimore or Buffalo, which might have averted his landing with our most hated rival. That ending phone call was nothing short of brutal.
So after two episodes I come away exactly where I thought I would, which of course may be confirmation bias. Mara meddles, but does so in a passive aggressive manner. So this organization will always need a strong and competent GM to ensure that decisions are made with an eye on winning championships, not on appeasing the owner's agenda. Is Schoen that guy? The jury continues to be out. He has made some good personnel moves - pulling off the Burns trade chief among them. But his handling of DJ and Saquon are nothing short of an epic disaster and will always overshadow anything he does until this team wins a championship again. Daboll continues to look like the real deal and exactly what you want in a head coach. But can he overcome such brutal legacy head winds? Time will tell.
Odunze has top intangibles, but let's be honest here, he was saying what he knew what he had to say.
That's still a sign of preparation and taking every part of the draft process seriously. Odunze crushed the combine on and off the field. He did everything he could to raise his stock. That speaks to me on the amount of work he will put in day in and day out for his career.
Quote:
what the giants chose to pay barkley in the past (on a slot rookie deal) has no bearing on what his value was past that contract. last year the giants tagged him at 10m gtd for 1 year, the negotiation started there.
and barkley's contract ask of the giants last year was not a CMC deal. it was less than he got from philly, which also wasnt a CMC deal.
Umm, what? From PFT:
Quote:
Per a league source with knowledge of the situation, the Giants extended an offer to Barkley worth $13 million per year, including $26 million over the first two years. The offer was made before the deadline for applying the franchise tag, with the express message from the team that, if the tag were applied to Barkley, the offer would be pulled. Barkley was looking for Christian McCaffrey money, we’re told; that’s roughly $16 million per year.
Link - ( New Window )
Mike Garafolo and Ryan Dunleavy both reported that to be incorrect and reported the specific details of what Barkley was looking for.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
New: In the end, #Giants and Saquon Barkley couldn't bridge a gap of less than $2 million in both average annual salary and guarantees over the first 2 years, sources said. Both sides felt they budged enough and now it feels like a big risk for both https://nypost.com/2023/07/17/saquon-barkley-giants-cant-reach-deal-ahead-of-contract-deadline/ #nyg
Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The staggering part of the #Giants and Saquon Barkley being unable to reach a deal is how close they were.
@rydunleavy’s reporting is in line with what I’ve heard regarding the spread between the sides. It seemed close enough to bridge as the deadline drew near. Didn’t happen.
4:40 PM · Jul 17, 2023
https://nypost.com/2023/07/17/saquon-barkley-giants-cant-reach-deal-ahead-of-contract-deadline/ - ( New Window )
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
Which edge at #2? They don't grow on trees.
Nabers came across very authentic in that interview. Was honest about losing, and about wanting the ball.
I agree. I thought Nabers came across sincere.
New York City market for professional sports is a different ball game. Daniels said - well I played in Death Valley and I talk to my family about it.
Best answer - IMO - would have been - I understand that playing for the New York Giants brings high expectations and I have high expectations for myself. If we are losing, I'm going to do the best I can to correct it, be a leader, address things head on, expectations are high. I hate losing.
Instead, he said well I played college ball for LSU.
Again - I guess it's an OK answer. Just somewhat of a cop out IMO. These college kids at big programs are given every single thing to be able to succeed.
I don't really care about the perfect/ideal answer to sound good. I'm more interested in getting the most talented people. And as I have mentioned many times, I don't buy this myth that the NY market is so challenging that only certain players can survive. That expired a long time ago in my view. If you have a good PR and coaching staff, that can be managed for nearly anyone.
And it's a bit bothersome to me that Schoen is drinking that Kool-Aid. Daboll isn't...
On Barkley, the mistakes were made last year. First, they had to tag DJ and offer SB a contract which would have simply guaranteed the money from two franchise tags. Which is exactly what the Eagles just did. Instead Schoen played hard ball with Barkley over absolute peanuts while simultaneously awarding DJ the most undeserved and massive overpayment to any player in Giants history. And then, when the 2023 season was clearly over at the trade deadline, Schoen had to trade SB. Not only to get some value for him, but also to at least try to control where SB's future would be. I am certain they could have gotten a day two pick for him from a team like Baltimore or Buffalo, which might have averted his landing with our most hated rival. That ending phone call was nothing short of brutal.
So after two episodes I come away exactly where I thought I would, which of course may be confirmation bias. Mara meddles, but does so in a passive aggressive manner. So this organization will always need a strong and competent GM to ensure that decisions are made with an eye on winning championships, not on appeasing the owner's agenda. Is Schoen that guy? The jury continues to be out. He has made some good personnel moves - pulling off the Burns trade chief among them. But his handling of DJ and Saquon are nothing short of an epic disaster and will always overshadow anything he does until this team wins a championship again. Daboll continues to look like the real deal and exactly what you want in a head coach. But can he overcome such brutal legacy head winds? Time will tell.
Harrison was impressive in the interview.
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
at #39 it ended up there were no obvious edges left. the players who went from #39 to the Nubin pick at #47 were:
Braden Fiske (pick traded to rams for #52 and next years 2nd)
Dejean
Kool-Aid
Lassiter
Max Melton
Jackson Powers-Johnson
Edgerin Cooper
Jonathan Brooks
so im not even sure they wouldnt have just taken Nubin at #39.
the miss was the Rams trade because they gave up big value to move up 13 slots, but that wasnt predictable ahead of time.
also if you sign Wilkins as a FA as opposed to a Burns trade, you lose the McKinney comp pick which will probably be around pick #140 next year. Which isn't nothing.
very close call either way, either was a good player to add but i prefer the 2 years younger edge rusher bc i think thats the harder thing to find.
On Barkley, the mistakes were made last year. First, they had to tag DJ and offer SB a contract which would have simply guaranteed the money from two franchise tags. Which is exactly what the Eagles just did. Instead Schoen played hard ball with Barkley over absolute peanuts while simultaneously awarding DJ the most undeserved and massive overpayment to any player in Giants history. And then, when the 2023 season was clearly over at the trade deadline, Schoen had to trade SB. Not only to get some value for him, but also to at least try to control where SB's future would be. I am certain they could have gotten a day two pick for him from a team like Baltimore or Buffalo, which might have averted his landing with our most hated rival. That ending phone call was nothing short of brutal.
So after two episodes I come away exactly where I thought I would, which of course may be confirmation bias. Mara meddles, but does so in a passive aggressive manner. So this organization will always need a strong and competent GM to ensure that decisions are made with an eye on winning championships, not on appeasing the owner's agenda. Is Schoen that guy? The jury continues to be out. He has made some good personnel moves - pulling off the Burns trade chief among them. But his handling of DJ and Saquon are nothing short of an epic disaster and will always overshadow anything he does until this team wins a championship again. Daboll continues to look like the real deal and exactly what you want in a head coach. But can he overcome such brutal legacy head winds? Time will tell.
Nate Solder and Kenny Golloday say hold my beer.
I've been preaching for two years they mishandled the entire Barkley situation. They should have dealt him, and there were offers.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Eric Could you imagine what those pre-briefs must have looked like with that clown Gettleman? Or maybe they started after that "Rome wasn't built in a day dahlin" debacle because they were like holy shit we have to hire someone to talk to these GM's beforehand.
Quote:
but the pre-brief between Schoen and the PR department was gold.
I have always wondered if they did pre-briefs and this confirmed it.
Keep this in mind moving forward before every press conference.
Eric Could you imagine what those pre-briefs must have looked like with that clown Gettleman? Or maybe they started after that "Rome wasn't built in a day dahlin" debacle because they were like holy shit we have to hire someone to talk to these GM's beforehand.
He probably didn't think he needed them.
What caught my eye was it wasn't just one guy in the room. Anyone who has worked in a government/corporate environment with a PR department knows the drill.
Their job is to protect the person from himself.
I'm still unsure of the clinical definition of difference-maker, but I'd hope any player they contemplating pursuing in the 100M+ range met that criteria.
So now we're not just twisting facts, but reality itself?
Rossetti said Wilkins was a "very good player" but not a "difference making pass rusher".
The team spent more money and more picks on what kind of player in Brian Burns again? was i hearing things or did the bowen describe him as an "elite pass rusher" in yesterday's episode? if bowen felt the same way about wilkins, why didn't they sign him for less and keep the pick? why didnt miami tag him and trade him like carolina did burns?
I don't have the ability to divine intangible criteria at the accuracy level you do.
I think it's perfectly obvious Wilkins and Burns both fit in that difference-making pass rusher designation. In fact, I hope they both did if they were considering paying either 100M+. Burns is a better, more consistent player and pass rusher. He'll make a bigger difference, but Wilkins would have made a demonstrable difference as a player and pass rushers as well.
I think the nature of this whole disagreement is that you define difference-making as a more exclusive echelon where I think it's a more generic term. And that Rosetti's comment was a bit of a throw away silly observation in the moment, not an official designation.
And I say this in total sincerity, with no sarcasm intended, maybe you could spin up a color coded hierarchy of what words describe what types of players. So then I don't offend your definitions.
https://x.com/i/lists/1393020765306593281 - ( New Window )
I've been preaching for two years they mishandled the entire Barkley situation. They should have dealt him, and there were offers.
Barkley should have been dealt three times. Once in the Gettleman Era and twice with Schoen.
I thought it was hilarious in one of those staff meetings (E1) that they were wondering if anyone would trade for Barkley in the offseason if tagged. I got the clear sense that some of the nitwits think Barkley is one of the great players in the history of the Giants, if not the NFL.
There are some dumb people walking the halls of Giants Way with big titles who should never set foot in a room where the discussion is football personnel. Stick to charity events.
Hard Knocks Podcast - ( New Window )
Right on cue, here it is.
Link - ( New Window )
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
The frustration of dealing with Barkley, calling his Giant for Life bluff, and pressure from ownership all couldn't be more clear IMO
This is how I view it also.
I think Schoen just ran out of time trying to juggle Barkley and Jones last year (with probably-not-quite-a-Mara-mandate-but-close to keep both), preferred to sign Barkley to a 3y deal (that would have functioned as basically a 2y deal with an option) and tag DJ, and then Barkley held firm at a number that Schoen didn't like, which forced an 11th hour pivot resulting in Barkley getting the tag and DJ getting the bag.
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I've been preaching for two years they mishandled the entire Barkley situation. They should have dealt him, and there were offers.
Barkley should have been dealt three times. Once in the Gettleman Era and twice with Schoen.
I thought it was hilarious in one of those staff meetings (E1) that they were wondering if anyone would trade for Barkley in the offseason if tagged. I got the clear sense that some of the nitwits think Barkley is one of the great players in the history of the Giants, if not the NFL.
There are some dumb people walking the halls of Giants Way with big titles who should never set foot in a room where the discussion is football personnel. Stick to charity events.
I have no problem with people pushing back and asking questions. You don't want group think. That's why I actually didn't mind McDonald's comments in Ep. 1.
However, it's very clear that Mara's wishes at the very least, have to be danced around with. The response by some will be, "he has every right, he's the owner." My response to that is Mara is a lot like George Costanza. Every instinct he has is wrong.
Brutal.
He's from WV, but he was a lawyer. There is no way he is that naive.
Brutal.
The playoff season made things difficult on a number of different fronts. Jones was still in that no-man's land. They gambled and got burned.
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
As a UFA, Wilkins was actually a more realistic option. Stroke the right check and he's a Giant.
Burns was more desirable, positionally and individual talent-wise, especially at similar dollars. But his availability/affordability was questionable till it wasn't;
Hopefully the next episode shows how they got Burn's price within reason.
LOL
Quote:
Imagine entering an offseason thinking you have to keep both Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley, and making contract/franchise tag decisions around that premise.
Brutal.
The playoff season made things difficult on a number of different fronts. Jones was still in that no-man's land. They gambled and got burned.
Got burned and still doubled down
On Barkley, the mistakes were made last year. First, they had to tag DJ and offer SB a contract which would have simply guaranteed the money from two franchise tags. Which is exactly what the Eagles just did. Instead Schoen played hard ball with Barkley over absolute peanuts while simultaneously awarding DJ the most undeserved and massive overpayment to any player in Giants history. And then, when the 2023 season was clearly over at the trade deadline, Schoen had to trade SB. Not only to get some value for him, but also to at least try to control where SB's future would be. I am certain they could have gotten a day two pick for him from a team like Baltimore or Buffalo, which might have averted his landing with our most hated rival. That ending phone call was nothing short of brutal.
So after two episodes I come away exactly where I thought I would, which of course may be confirmation bias. Mara meddles, but does so in a passive aggressive manner. So this organization will always need a strong and competent GM to ensure that decisions are made with an eye on winning championships, not on appeasing the owner's agenda. Is Schoen that guy? The jury continues to be out. He has made some good personnel moves - pulling off the Burns trade chief among them. But his handling of DJ and Saquon are nothing short of an epic disaster and will always overshadow anything he does until this team wins a championship again. Daboll continues to look like the real deal and exactly what you want in a head coach. But can he overcome such brutal legacy head winds? Time will tell.
There was a poster (insider) about a week before the draft who said JS wanted the QB in the draft and BD the WR. BD understands winning matters and things change fast if you don't win enough imv. I think JS feels more secure.
Mara does have his favorites. If JS didn't want the longer commitment to DJ his job is to make the case against it imv.
Quote:
Barkley conversation toward the end on the phone with Schoen is really fascinating. Barkley's tone seemed odd, or distant, or maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Next episode will address more with Brian Burns. Can't wait for that.
He was definitely butt hurt at what the offers had been. Good for Schoen. Don’t pay for a 27 year old RB when your team is full of holes.
LOL, SB thinks he got booed at the Knicks game, wait until he plays at Metlife next year.
LOL
My take is he thinks journalism should be easy and if you ask a question people should provide all the details you want. You shouldn't have to 'work' to uncover information. It's a ridiculous stance.
Quote:
In comment 16550866 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
what the giants chose to pay barkley in the past (on a slot rookie deal) has no bearing on what his value was past that contract. last year the giants tagged him at 10m gtd for 1 year, the negotiation started there.
and barkley's contract ask of the giants last year was not a CMC deal. it was less than he got from philly, which also wasnt a CMC deal.
Umm, what? From PFT:
Quote:
Per a league source with knowledge of the situation, the Giants extended an offer to Barkley worth $13 million per year, including $26 million over the first two years. The offer was made before the deadline for applying the franchise tag, with the express message from the team that, if the tag were applied to Barkley, the offer would be pulled. Barkley was looking for Christian McCaffrey money, we’re told; that’s roughly $16 million per year.
Link - ( New Window )
Mike Garafolo and Ryan Dunleavy both reported that to be incorrect and reported the specific details of what Barkley was looking for.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
New: In the end, #Giants and Saquon Barkley couldn't bridge a gap of less than $2 million in both average annual salary and guarantees over the first 2 years, sources said. Both sides felt they budged enough and now it feels like a big risk for both https://nypost.com/2023/07/17/saquon-barkley-giants-cant-reach-deal-ahead-of-contract-deadline/ #nyg
Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The staggering part of the #Giants and Saquon Barkley being unable to reach a deal is how close they were.
@rydunleavy’s reporting is in line with what I’ve heard regarding the spread between the sides. It seemed close enough to bridge as the deadline drew near. Didn’t happen.
4:40 PM · Jul 17, 2023 https://nypost.com/2023/07/17/saquon-barkley-giants-cant-reach-deal-ahead-of-contract-deadline/ - ( New Window )
I am sure you know that amount per year doesn't mean anything. It's the guaranteed money that matters. And I don't buy that the difference in guaranteed money was only a couple million dollars. After Barkley signed with the Eagles, he said he got what he wanted by not signing with the Giants in 2023 i.e. $36 million guaranteed ($10 million from Giants, $26 million from Eagles).
McCaffrey's 2020 contract extension only had $30 million guaranteed (per sportrac and OTC). Now Barkley eclipsed that.
Actions speak louder to me than what Barkley's agents told Ryan Dunleavy.
no shit? how can you not see that the side of this argument in the wrong is the group most aggressively making a mountain out of a molehill in the "not good for rossetti" thread as if it were anything other than the shitty clickbait journalism it was blowing a brief "generic" comment out of proportion?
am i crazy or did you imply in this thread the organization's interest in wilkins was some kind negative reflection on rossetti when his original "throw away" comments very plainly included his belief of wilkins to be a very good player?
so which is it? was his 1 "generic" comment out of a who knows how long meeting "a throwaway"? or was it the negative reflection on him the clickbait you've been choking on for the last week and continue to be implying?
Quote:
Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
I have no issue with that answer. The pressure playing for most SEC teams is not really different than playing in NYC, which gets way overblown, especially the Giants.
Agree with this. At LSU expectations are high and the fna base is beyond passionate. For the Giants, expectations are low and the fan base quickly focuses on the Yankees when the Giants suck...at least that portion of NY that gives a crap about sports.
When the Giants lose fans don't go to the coaches house and put "for sale" signs on his lawn. I would argue there is much more pressure to win at OSU, LSU, Alabama, etc., than there is to win with the NY Giants.
Haha. Why? If this staff has 3 straight awful drafts why would anyone want Brown or any of these guys for that matter?
I am sure you know that amount per year doesn't mean anything. It's the guaranteed money that matters. And I don't buy that the difference in guaranteed money was only a couple million dollars. After Barkley signed with the Eagles, he said he got what he wanted by not signing with the Giants in 2023 i.e. $36 million guaranteed ($10 million from Giants, $26 million from Eagles).
McCaffrey's 2020 contract extension only had $30 million guaranteed (per sportrac and OTC). Now Barkley eclipsed that.
Actions speak louder to me than what Barkley's agents told Ryan Dunleavy.
it is absolutely incorrect and misleading to combine the 2 different contracts from different teams in the way that you are. this was the reported ask last year and it was clearly less than what CMC got in 2020 even with a cap that was 25m+ smaller. if you to believe florio over dunleavy/garafolo that's your right but their respective track records arent on your side.
Those numbers were all within $1 million to $2 million on both ends of Barkley’s reduced asking price.
Either way, the numbers were close enough that common ground seems easy to find with incentives over the first two years, but both sides felt that they had budged as much as they could.
Barkley, 26, previously turned down a contract worth $13 million per year with $19.5 million guaranteed, sources said, because he is guaranteed $22.2 million if he plays on back-to-back tags in 2023 and 2024.
Multiple independent agents described $19.5 million as a non-starter.
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In comment 16550880 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
I have no issue with that answer. The pressure playing for most SEC teams is not really different than playing in NYC, which gets way overblown, especially the Giants.
Agree with this. At LSU expectations are high and the fna base is beyond passionate. For the Giants, expectations are low and the fan base quickly focuses on the Yankees when the Giants suck...at least that portion of NY that gives a crap about sports.
When the Giants lose fans don't go to the coaches house and put "for sale" signs on his lawn. I would argue there is much more pressure to win at OSU, LSU, Alabama, etc., than there is to win with the NY Giants.
100%. Every single LSU game is in a fully packed stadium of over 100K people, Giants stadium is barely ever at capacity and when it is it’s not even heavily Giants fans but always a lot of visitors. It’s overrated. SEC schools and everyone within the state are nuts about college sports more passionate than NFL fans are.
College football generates way more passion than NFL football, and way more media scrutiny for high profile teams. In the Northeast I don't think that distinction is appreciated.
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Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
I have no issue with that answer. The pressure playing for most SEC teams is not really different than playing in NYC, which gets way overblown, especially the Giants.
Death Valley is ASU, not LSU. I have to agree with Ryan here. I can see the argument that SEC is a tough place to play (although, compared to NYC?), but ASU isn’t even the most popular program in its own state. And I loved Daniels in the draft.
I love Nabers, and I think each of the top 3 WR’s is going to be great, but Odunze was an impressive interview. What I liked about the 1st episode was that it really appeared that Schoen was calling the shots, but a few of the scenes were clearly stage managed. That wasn’t the case in ep 2, and it’s clear that JS is calling the shots. Again, no guarantee that he’ll succeed, but at least he’s allowed to do his job.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
it is absolutely incorrect and misleading to combine the 2 different contracts from different teams in the way that you are. this was the reported ask last year and it was clearly less than what CMC got in 2020 even with a cap that was 25m+ smaller. if you to believe florio over dunleavy/garafolo that's your right but their respective track records arent on your side.
My point is only to show that Schoen that didn't screw up by not signing Barkley. Barkley wanted more guaranteed money than what the Giants were willing to offer, and rightfully so IMO. And based on what Barkley got and his statements (looking for the quote, can't find it now) it was a lot more than a couple million.
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best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
Ummmm... no.
The only reason to even have that discussion was to nab a QB. I don't think the Giants were overly optimistic about the Pats moving out of that pick, but they clearly explored the option.
And even in public pressers, their support of Jones during this process was lukewarm at best.
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In comment 16550894 barens said:
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In comment 16550880 ryanmkeane said:
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Moreover, I did not like the Daniels answer about playing in Death Valley. Whole different ball game when it comes to playing in a big market in the NFL. Also, he spent half his career at ASU.
I have no issue with that answer. The pressure playing for most SEC teams is not really different than playing in NYC, which gets way overblown, especially the Giants.
Agree with this. At LSU expectations are high and the fna base is beyond passionate. For the Giants, expectations are low and the fan base quickly focuses on the Yankees when the Giants suck...at least that portion of NY that gives a crap about sports.
When the Giants lose fans don't go to the coaches house and put "for sale" signs on his lawn. I would argue there is much more pressure to win at OSU, LSU, Alabama, etc., than there is to win with the NY Giants.
100%. Every single LSU game is in a fully packed stadium of over 100K people, Giants stadium is barely ever at capacity and when it is it’s not even heavily Giants fans but always a lot of visitors. It’s overrated. SEC schools and everyone within the state are nuts about college sports more passionate than NFL fans are.
@TheDougRush
A few takeaways from the second episode of HBO Hard Knocks: Offseason with the New York Giants:
***SPOILERS*** if you didn’t watch tonight’s episode, you might want to skip this if do you intend to watch it.
•Brian Daboll definitely seemed to really like Malik Nabers even before they spoke with him at the Combine. He really liked that he hates losing more than he likes winning.
•Daboll and Joe Schoen also seemed to really like Drake Maye when they asked him to dissect a certain pass play with the terminology.
•Joe Schoen seemed interested in wanting to move up to No. 3 in the 2024 NFL Draft and went directly to the Patriots to tell them that if they were thinking about moving out of the pick, to call them.
•The Giants, especially Daboll and defensive coordinator Shane Bowen, were really high on Tyler Nubin, so it’s not a surprise that the Giants targeted him in the second round with Xavier McKinney leaving as a free agent.
•After the initial talk he had with Panthers GM Dan Morgan that planted the seed, the idea for trading for Brian Burns was definitely in Joe Schoen’s head and he was floating trade packages to his people to gauge their opinions. He seemed more interested in trading for Burns over pursuing Christian Wilkins as a free agent.
•Schoen talks with both Saquon Barkley and his agent to mention how they’re going to let him test the market and to come back to them to see if he still wants to be a Giant, which Saquon said he appreciated. Schoen said he wanted a chance to match a possible offer if one was made to him.
•Schoen seemed like he did want Saquon back, but at his price and he likely felt the running back market might not be there in free agency. But given the contract he got in March, that clearly wasn’t the case.
•The next episode previews the continued negotiations heading into free agency between the Giants and Saquon; the last thing mentioned in the preview was Schoen saying: “I offered him a 3-year deal giving him $12.5 million APY (average per year) and $25 million guaranteed.”
•Saquon’s deal with the Eagles: 3 years, $37.5M ($12.5M APY) with $26M guaranteed.
With that said, definitely can’t wait to see how the next episode goes.
so which is it? was his 1 "generic" comment out of a who knows how long meeting "a throwaway"? or was it the negative reflection on him the clickbait you've been choking on for the last week and continue to be implying?
I think you have your head so far up your own ass, and are so thoroughly choking on the undigested fragments of PFF screen shots you subsist on, that you missed that my posts on this thread were sarcastic and in good humor.
I also think Rosetti made a silly comment, that wasn't factually accurate as it relates to 2023.
I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
I don't have the time now. I did try to quick read the entire thread. I'm going to read it again and watch the show a 2nd time.
I would like to point out one thing I read on this thread that I think is incorrect.
I'm not sure who said there was no Mara in the room at the combine. I assume they meant John since for Hard Knocks purposes Chris Mara doesn't seem to exist on or off camera and it's obvious that Tim McDonnell was there. Watch at 13:30 when the player interviews begin in the suite. Is that not John Mara in the light grey sweater (sitting next to the woman in back sweatshirt with glasses) reading the Giants scouting binder they showed earlier in the episode? He's back on camera in the same spot at 21:07 too.
The Mara family management style is exactly what I expected and believed about the way the Giants have done football business since Ernie retired and ended the George Young structure. There are so many examples and parallels to the way Wellington ran the team it's like bad deja vu all over again for me.
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In comment 16550549 Eric from BBI said:
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best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
Ummmm... no.
The only reason to even have that discussion was to nab a QB. I don't think the Giants were overly optimistic about the Pats moving out of that pick, but they clearly explored the option.
And even in public pressers, their support of Jones during this process was lukewarm at best.
I think the Giants would have drafted Maye if they had been picking at #3. They weren't. So they "settled" for a guy who they also really liked.
Observations are that I really love your HC. Think he’s the real deal and will one day win a SB! Maybe not in NYC though !
Nabors appears to have some traits similar to another guy , Odell!
Jones will have to get the ball to him early and often to keep him happy!
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Rosetti's comment was a bit of a throw away not an official designation.
so which is it? was his 1 "generic" comment out of a who knows how long meeting "a throwaway"? or was it the negative reflection on him the clickbait you've been choking on for the last week and continue to be implying?
I think you have your head so far up your own ass, and are so thoroughly choking on the undigested fragments of PFF screen shots you subsist on, that you missed that my posts on this thread were sarcastic and in good humor.
I also think Rosetti made a silly comment, that wasn't factually accurate as it relates to 2023.
I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
it's a little weird to project that these discussions = ruining a day, but if that's how you view it id maybe suggest you consider a healthier form of entertainment?
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they did make an offer. It was widely reported. Teams don't make firm offers until right before the draft, and often during the draft.
First…Does reported equal truth? Or only when it supports Eric’s point? I disagree it was widely reported and if it was. What was they offer made?
A bunch of national and local reporters posted that the Giants offered multiple picks to move up. The Patriots also confirmed the Giants were one of the teams they were talking to on draft day.
I'm not sure why you are taking umbrage with this.
There will likely be some of the comments on this very thread that won't look good by the end of this series as well.
We all need to remember these are small glimpses of a months long process, that we're not even half way through yet. To make any definitive statement based upon 2 40 minute, edited shows is really jumping way out on a limb.
unfortunately the only chance they had to get him was if NE took JJM at #3 but that obviously didnt happen. NE was never trading that pick.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
I'm glad we agree you're a butthead.
I think the Giants would have drafted Maye if they had been picking at #3. They weren't. So they "settled" for a guy who they also really liked.
Per Sports Illustrated’s Albert Breer, the Giants offered the Patriots their 2024 sixth-round pick, along with their 2025 first-rounder, while the Vikings offered three first-round picks in total, including the No. 11 and No. 23 picks this year, along with a 2025 first.
Breer wrote:
The Minnesota Vikings and New York Giants did make offers to the New England Patriots for the No. 3 pick to take Drake Maye. Earlier this week, Minnesota offered the Nos. 11 and 23 picks, and its 2025 first-rounder, with pick swaps favoring the Vikings as part of the proposal; and that offer ticked up with New England on the clock. The Giants, meanwhile, did wind up putting their 2025 first-round pick in their offer to move from No. 6 to No. 3.
Here are the massive trade offers the Patriots reportedly passed up for Drake Maye - ( New Window )
How the Patriots decided QB Drake Maye was their future - ( New Window )
= 2024 1st, 6th, and 2025 1st?
Observations are that I really love your HC. Think he’s the real deal and will one day win a SB! Maybe not in NYC though !
Nabors appears to have some traits similar to another guy , Odell!
Jones will have to get the ball to him early and often to keep him happy!
Difference I see here is that Daboll has the personality to handle Nabers much better than Coughlin ( who was on the way out) McAdoo or Judge ever did with Beckham.
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if you watched last night, we already know that Daniel Jones likes Nabers.
I think the Giants would have drafted Maye if they had been picking at #3. They weren't. So they "settled" for a guy who they also really liked.
It is great that you think that but there is nothing to support it. Everything that happened is direct evidence to the contrary. I suspect we will see the draft room? Do you think they make a serious offer to NE. Friendly wager right now between you and me. If they call the Patriots when NE is on the clock, they do not offer anything close to what would be needed to get a team DESPERATE for a QB off that pick. I suspect they only offer enough to move up to get the WR they covet.
Where are you going with these odd takes?
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the Giants offered the Patriots their 2024 sixth-round pick, along with their 2025 first-rounder
= 2024 1st, 6th, and 2025 1st?
I think its a typo...1st rounder in 2024 (6th overall) and 2025 first rounder.
BTW, the other report is from Mike Reiss, who is well known in Boston.
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I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
I'm glad we agree you're a butthead.
you can't even write a proper insult without twisting my words.
This is my take.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
I'm glad we agree you're a butthead.
you can't even write a proper insult without twisting my words.
Eric, sometimes I think the joke is so squarely sitting on your chest -- it might the lack of oxygen keeping you from understanding -- it is in fact on you.
You lost me at "it's not debatable."
= 2024 1st, 6th, and 2025 1st?
I think its a typo...1st rounder in 2024 (6th overall) and 2025 first rounder.
BTW, the other report is from Mike Reiss, who is well known in Boston.
Gotcha! A 6th rounder and a future first would be a pretty silly non-offer.
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I also hope now I ruin another day for you, because you're a butthead, you smell bad, and you don't have any friends.
finally something we agree on, i definitely missed your sarcasm and humor.
I'm glad we agree you're a butthead.
you can't even write a proper insult without twisting my words.
Eric, sometimes I think the joke is so squarely sitting on your chest -- it might the lack of oxygen keeping you from understanding -- it is in fact on you.
Can you two cut it out? You are ruining a good thread.
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I am not sure why folks are having trouble understanding that the situation the Giants were dealing with last year was not a binary one. They clearly heavily scouted the top 2024 QBs, especially early in the year when they were in fact sitting on a top 2-3 pick and would have had a shot at one of the top three guys. Indeed, I suspect they would have taken any of the three in a heartbeat if they had a chance, not necessarily because they desperately wanted to replace Jones, but because they would have had a shot at a potential elite QB something that doesn't come along every day in the NFL. Once the order was set they had to pretty much realize that neither Chicago not Wash was going to move off the 1-2 picks, but did make an offer for #3, although my guess is they would have known down deep that the Patriots weren't going any where either or if they were it would be for a huge package like the one the Vikings were offering. However, once that failed it appears Option B was to stick with Jones. Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
This is my take.
I agree with this. It makes the most logical sense. Aside from the QB discussion, I find the decision between Odunze and Nabers fascinating.
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Eric, am I read to read this:
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the Giants offered the Patriots their 2024 sixth-round pick, along with their 2025 first-rounder
= 2024 1st, 6th, and 2025 1st?
I think its a typo...1st rounder in 2024 (6th overall) and 2025 first rounder.
BTW, the other report is from Mike Reiss, who is well known in Boston.
We KNOW the results of the draft.
KNOWING THAT we drafted Nabers, replaced our backup with a less accomplished QB and failed to move up or draft a QB…
Is it not infinitely more likely that we were actually doing some things to disguise our true intentions.
You don’t think the team tried any deception at all?
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
They like Daniel Jones and there was no desire or legitimate attempt to replace him.
I think this is spot on.
I think they felt Maye was a very attractive prospect, and willing to upgrade. But that wasn't some deep vote of no confidence in Jones.
Again, I'm not sure why you are so passionate about one take when there is evidence that the Giants not only had discussion with the Patriots to move up (on tape now) but actual offers involving two first round picks.
The Patriot reporters are reporting the same.
At some point, you need to take the loss.
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In comment 16551076 Snorkels said:
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I am not sure why folks are having trouble understanding that the situation the Giants were dealing with last year was not a binary one. They clearly heavily scouted the top 2024 QBs, especially early in the year when they were in fact sitting on a top 2-3 pick and would have had a shot at one of the top three guys. Indeed, I suspect they would have taken any of the three in a heartbeat if they had a chance, not necessarily because they desperately wanted to replace Jones, but because they would have had a shot at a potential elite QB something that doesn't come along every day in the NFL. Once the order was set they had to pretty much realize that neither Chicago not Wash was going to move off the 1-2 picks, but did make an offer for #3, although my guess is they would have known down deep that the Patriots weren't going any where either or if they were it would be for a huge package like the one the Vikings were offering. However, once that failed it appears Option B was to stick with Jones. Had they in fact desperately wanted to replace Jones they would almost assuredly have taken one of the other QBs at #6 (or at least somewhere in the draft.)
This is my take.
I agree with this. It makes the most logical sense. Aside from the QB discussion, I find the decision between Odunze and Nabers fascinating.
agree with all the above, especially the odunze/nabers part. through most of the process odunze was the non-qb i was probably most attached to so im really looking forward to seeing how much they talked about both of them and what ended up separating them. the consensus seemed to shift heavily to nabers the closer things got to the draft.
I have no problem with people pushing back and asking questions. You don't want group think. That's why I actually didn't mind McDonald's comments in Ep. 1.
However, it's very clear that Mara's wishes at the very least, have to be danced around with. The response by some will be, "he has every right, he's the owner." My response to that is Mara is a lot like George Costanza. Every instinct he has is wrong.
I agree that a healthy work environment should encourage people to speak freely and make their case. But that still doesn't take away from my point that there are people in the building who have antiquated views about the NFL. And they have a seat at the table where decisions are made.
Many of us aren't surprised by this reveal, but this confirms suspicions.
Thus far, these two episodes have made it more clear - to me - that Schoen absolutely swings the final gavel on football decisions. But when it comes to dealing with Mara, he has to navigate very carefully to get him on-board.
Again, I'm not sure why you are so passionate about one take when there is evidence that the Giants not only had discussion with the Patriots to move up (on tape now) but actual offers involving two first round picks.
The Patriot reporters are reporting the same.
At some point, you need to take the loss.
You did not know.
Daniel Jones is still QB1.
So sad for some of you.
Kisses.
I am suggesting that if an offer was made, it not to actually make the trade but keep teams from moving ahead of them for a WR.
It is actually a very coveted position on draft day.
Not to disguise your intention would be stupid?
No?
But it's also "debatable."
That's why you lost me at "not debatable."
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I have no problem with people pushing back and asking questions. You don't want group think. That's why I actually didn't mind McDonald's comments in Ep. 1.
However, it's very clear that Mara's wishes at the very least, have to be danced around with. The response by some will be, "he has every right, he's the owner." My response to that is Mara is a lot like George Costanza. Every instinct he has is wrong.
I agree that a healthy work environment should encourage people to speak freely and make their case. But that still doesn't take away from my point that there are people in the building who have antiquated views about the NFL. And they have a seat at the table where decisions are made.
Many of us aren't surprised by this reveal, but this confirms suspicions.
Thus far, these two episodes have made it more clear - to me - that Schoen absolutely swings the final gavel on football decisions. But when it comes to dealing with Mara, he has to navigate very carefully to get him on-board.
Your last paragraph is spot on.
I think the Giants want a CB, but that is mainly based on Schoen's comments in episode one. I didn't take that comment as a slight. I took it as, "with a really good pass rush, who plays CB matters less." Which is true.
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In comment 16551008 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 16550549 Eric from BBI said:
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best part of this episode was seeing the REAL Brian Daboll.
Also, there is no way Schoen has that conversation with the Patriots unless he was interested in moving up. He may not thought it was likely they would trade back, but the Giants were interested in moving up.
The private talk between Schoen and Brandon Brown was excellent too.
That is hilarious. We know he wasn’t interested because he didn’t move up. All Schoen did was let them know that he wanted to know if anyone was trying to move up ahead of him. They basically told Schoen, everybody wants to know that too. Same conversation with a number of teams. Interested parties make offers. Patriots were not moving that pick. Please stop. All of the people thinking the Giants wanted to replace Jones were fucking soooo wrong and this show is cementing that view. Terps must dying. Funny, funny shit. THEY WANTED THE WR and it is obvious.
Ummmm... no.
The only reason to even have that discussion was to nab a QB. I don't think the Giants were overly optimistic about the Pats moving out of that pick, but they clearly explored the option.
And even in public pressers, their support of Jones during this process was lukewarm at best.
Context Eric. Patriots needed a QB. Negotiating 101. They have ALL the leverage. You want that pick, you gotta make an offer, I am shocked you don’t understand negotiating better than that. No way the Patriots let anything out of the bag first. Understand, any team that wanted 3 was going to have to come to the Patriots, that deal wasn’t happening any other way. GMEN desperately wanted a WR, I bet we find out they pick Daniel’s choice.
That’s not necessarily true. If the Vikings made an offer to NE that the Pats were willing to accept, you don’t think they’d call Schoen first to see what he’d offer? It would be negligence not to.
It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
With or without Mara, Schoen and Daboll had a serious discussion about Daniel Jones' future. I'm talking big picture, strategic level thinking for the franchise. And we're not privy to that discussion for obvious reasons.
Or two, the Giants are more winging it, exploring options but mainly reacting to the cards dealt to them.
I personally have no idea which is taking place.
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"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
at #39 it ended up there were no obvious edges left. the players who went from #39 to the Nubin pick at #47 were:
Braden Fiske (pick traded to rams for #52 and next years 2nd)
Dejean
Kool-Aid
Lassiter
Max Melton
Jackson Powers-Johnson
Edgerin Cooper
Jonathan Brooks
so im not even sure they wouldnt have just taken Nubin at #39.
the miss was the Rams trade because they gave up big value to move up 13 slots, but that wasnt predictable ahead of time.
also if you sign Wilkins as a FA as opposed to a Burns trade, you lose the McKinney comp pick which will probably be around pick #140 next year. Which isn't nothing.
very close call either way, either was a good player to add but i prefer the 2 years younger edge rusher bc i think thats the harder thing to find.
Yeah, good point. you and BBI Eric are right, but I was (didn't pay attention when we didn't have that pick) assuming that there was some form of draft slot worthy edge rusher at that point. In reality I agree that more than likely would have put Nubin at that spot. Just saying, Wilkins + Dex would be a thing to see, a real problem for offensive lines.
But, very possible Burns + KT are force multipliers to each other also, so no real issues with that move.
I thought he said something more like "if I offered", "if I had offered" or "what if I offered", <the deal>, "would he be a Giant right now"?
I wondered at the time, if that was his speculation after it was all concluded?
I can't wait to see that in context.
Yeah, good point. you and BBI Eric are right, but I was (didn't pay attention when we didn't have that pick) assuming that there was some form of draft slot worthy edge rusher at that point. In reality I agree that more than likely would have put Nubin at that spot. Just saying, Wilkins + Dex would be a thing to see, a real problem for offensive lines.
But, very possible Burns + KT are force multipliers to each other also, so no real issues with that move.
yeah i agree, last week my biggest question from that episode was this exact question wilkins + 39 or burns. a week later i dont think there's a wrong answer, but without an obvious name at #39 (or #52 post trade down) i find myself gravitated towards choosing the harder to find/bigger impact player, which i think is burns.
Clearly DJ has not shown the right instincts anywhere near enough during the games when it counts. But Daboll must think he is capable, otherwise they would have done more at QB then just bringing in Drew Lock.
Pre-draft, I must admit to liking the cut of JJM's jib at QB, figuring he would be there at 6. I would have enjoyed seeing more of the Daboll interaction with JJ then the little clip we actually got. I do think that both JS and BD really liked JJ quite a bit, but they were in full bloom love and over the moon with Nabers, which I can understand.
Is it possible that all this trade up talk with NE for Maye is just a little bit of a smoke screen for not taking JJ and sticking with Jones? Surely they knew there were a lot of people who think the Giants should be done with Jones, but if they say they loved Maye and just could not get the deal done, so the rumored trade up at least offers some cover for not taking JJ or any other QB. Just a thought, not saying this is the case.
I did not know that Daboll had worked with Favre or the Jets, so that was interesting. Also not in love with the scout's shrimp dinner, surely that should have ended up on the cutting room floor....
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In comment 16551032 Eric from BBI said:
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they did make an offer. It was widely reported. Teams don't make firm offers until right before the draft, and often during the draft.
First…Does reported equal truth? Or only when it supports Eric’s point? I disagree it was widely reported and if it was. What was they offer made?
A bunch of national and local reporters posted that the Giants offered multiple picks to move up. The Patriots also confirmed the Giants were one of the teams they were talking to on draft day.
I'm not sure why you are taking umbrage with this.
Because it doesn't jibe with his appeal to authority: "The Giants have unwavering confidence in Jones, so thegratefulhead must be right about him!"
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In comment 16550877 D HOS said:
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"So the question is would you rather have Wilkins at $27.5M/year or Burns at $28.2M/year minus second and fifth round picks?"
Pay Wilkins and draft an edge with that #2 ? I kind of think I prefer that. Wilkins and Dex would be a dominant duo because they would be force multipliers for each other. Who will you double?
I had thought that Wilkins was just not a realistic option. I was wrong.
at #39 it ended up there were no obvious edges left. the players who went from #39 to the Nubin pick at #47 were:
Braden Fiske (pick traded to rams for #52 and next years 2nd)
Dejean
Kool-Aid
Lassiter
Max Melton
Jackson Powers-Johnson
Edgerin Cooper
Jonathan Brooks
so im not even sure they wouldnt have just taken Nubin at #39.
the miss was the Rams trade because they gave up big value to move up 13 slots, but that wasnt predictable ahead of time.
also if you sign Wilkins as a FA as opposed to a Burns trade, you lose the McKinney comp pick which will probably be around pick #140 next year. Which isn't nothing.
very close call either way, either was a good player to add but i prefer the 2 years younger edge rusher bc i think thats the harder thing to find.
Yeah, good point. you and BBI Eric are right, but I was (didn't pay attention when we didn't have that pick) assuming that there was some form of draft slot worthy edge rusher at that point. In reality I agree that more than likely would have put Nubin at that spot. Just saying, Wilkins + Dex would be a thing to see, a real problem for offensive lines.
But, very possible Burns + KT are force multipliers to each other also, so no real issues with that move.
Example: They could have picked Nubin at 39 and Beebee in Nubin's spot.
Is Wilkens, Beebee better than Burns?
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It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
That is a fair viewpoint, especially with how hard they scouted the QB prospects. But Schoen still has to wear that noose from the contract he dished out to DJ so he is hoping to get relief somehow (even from DJ himself).
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It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
Until you see more evidence?
So Garofolo, multiple beat writers for both teams and a national reporter reporting what the offer was is not “enough evidence”?
What would be the determining factor that you would deem is “enough evidence”?
Seems like you are just trying to holding on the the narrative that they still want Jones and didn’t try to get Maye
Clearly DJ has not shown the right instincts anywhere near enough during the games when it counts. But Daboll must think he is capable, otherwise they would have done more at QB then just bringing in Drew Lock.
Pre-draft, I must admit to liking the cut of JJM's jib at QB, figuring he would be there at 6. I would have enjoyed seeing more of the Daboll interaction with JJ then the little clip we actually got. I do think that both JS and BD really liked JJ quite a bit, but they were in full bloom love and over the moon with Nabers, which I can understand.
Is it possible that all this trade up talk with NE for Maye is just a little bit of a smoke screen for not taking JJ and sticking with Jones? Surely they knew there were a lot of people who think the Giants should be done with Jones, but if they say they loved Maye and just could not get the deal done, so the rumored trade up at least offers some cover for not taking JJ or any other QB. Just a thought, not saying this is the case.
I did not know that Daboll had worked with Favre or the Jets, so that was interesting. Also not in love with the scout's shrimp dinner, surely that should have ended up on the cutting room floor....
I didn't know about Favre either. Show did a good job of reminding everyone who Daboll has worked with.
I've seen a a number of comments about the ending dinner. I actually kind of liked it because we got a glimpse into the personality of the scouts. They spent a ton of time on Hannah (for obvious reasons) but didn't give enough air time to the other scouts. We got a glimpse of them there. (Plus I'm a sucker for a nice dinner out with booze and comradery).
That shrimp cocktail sauce is overloaded with Horseradish - so good but man it attacks your brain like nothing else :)
Costco sells it from time to time - if you ever see it pick it up!
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Saqoun vibe was like "what do you want" vibe.
Other points I picked up
1) Giants view Corner has a huge need
2) Trade up to pick 3 was real with NE
2) Giants were interested in Christian Wilkins
3) Giants had some interest in retaining Mckinney
4) Giants are concerned Jones may not be ready until week 3/4
5) Giants felt unsure about Maliks personality. Jones approved Maliks talent.
Yup, based on the first two episodes, expect CB to be high on next year's wish list. I expect DT to be too. (QB is a completely different discussion).
Two positions loaded at the top of next years draft IF we happen to be picking top 15 again… CB opposite of Banks or IDL next to Dex seems to be the early favorite, throw in OL every year too and pending on how DJ looks QB also…
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
Example: They could have picked Nubin at 39 and Beebee in Nubin's spot.
Is Wilkens, Beebee better than Burns?
for a team that has seen firsthand how easy it is to not get much out of IOL picks id have to have a really high opinion of beebee. guards have been one of the deeper FA positions the last several offseasons.
i think im taking the 2x pro bowl 26 year old pass rusher because those dont come along for less than a first round pick pretty much ever. montez sweat was the only other one i can think of and at the time he was a rental.
What would have been interesting is if SD had taken Nabers instead of Alt. Would the Giants then have really taken Alt after having used the #7 pick on Neal just two years earlier? There were rumors that the Giants thought Alt had HOF potential. Or would they have taken Odunze or traded down?
As far as Burns vs. Wilkins, I'd rather have Burns. Yes, we had to give up #39 for Burns, which would not have been the case if we had signed Wilkins. But Burns is an elite pass rusher, and the cost of a #2 and a #5 was a lot less than what the Rams originally offered Carolina, which I think was two #1's and a #2.
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It seems like a few of you are watching this with the intent to find evidence they wanted to replace JOnes. Terps and BW are disgusted because they are smart enough to know the truth.
Since you mentioned me, I think there was interest in moving up to the three slot to grab a QB that met their qualifications. But I'm still not sure how strong that interest actually was. Thus far, these episodes have not revealed that, just that Schoen gave Eliot Wolf a heads-up that he may be interested as the draft nears.
Until I see or hear more evidence, I think Jones was still a strong option for Schoen/Daboll. And they were comfortable moving forward with him - assuming health - by adding more infantry if they couldn't get their price to move up.
I could hear Schoen actually saying this:
"We are close enough in this draft to get a younger, more talented QB who would be on a rookie contract. So, with Jones's history of injuries and inconsistent play, we should explore that..."
+1
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
wilkins got 27.5m aav, 57m fully guaranteed.
burns got 28.2m aav 76m fully guarantted.
they effectively got the same contracts except with burns getting 1 extra guaranteed year (likely in large part bc he is 2 years younger). burns got 3 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options, wilkins got 2 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options.
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
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In comment 16550586 fish3321 said:
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
wilkins got 27.5m aav, 57m fully guaranteed.
burns got 28.2m aav 76m fully guarantted.
they effectively got the same contracts except with burns getting 1 extra guaranteed year (likely in large part bc he is 2 years younger). burns got 3 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options, wilkins got 2 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options.
Ok so yeah for that price point alone you’d probably rather have the edge guy… (without factoring the 2nd round pick) I thought Wilkins was at around $22M… maybe that was NYG’s projection for him (which seemed low all around this year)
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In comment 16550586 fish3321 said:
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
Ok, maybe.
Do you think Barkley left for an extra $1M-$2M /// do you think Schoen let him walk over asking for an extra $1M-$2M ???
Kind of a shame on both sides to be honest if this is the case… now we got $11M in cap and not much use for it as it stands today… kind of sucks TBH but oh well we’ll be alright
Seems clear to me that last season’s negotiation between Schoen and Barkley left a bad taste in both of their mouths. The conversation that shoen had with Barkleys agent and then Barkley IMO confirms they were both ready to move on.
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In comment 16551180 90.Cal said:
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In comment 16550586 fish3321 said:
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
Ok, maybe.
Do you think Barkley left for an extra $1M-$2M /// do you think Schoen let him walk over asking for an extra $1M-$2M ???
Kind of a shame on both sides to be honest if this is the case… now we got $11M in cap and not much use for it as it stands today… kind of sucks TBH but oh well we’ll be alright
I think if Barkley's price had come down to single-digit AAV, maybe Schoen would have been interested, but that was never realistic. The Giants probably weren't as close as the reports suggest, and you can make a case that some of Schoen's actions last year (like reducing the AAV when he increased the gtd money) suggest that the goal was not to sign Barkley (unless the contract was extremely favorable), but instead to make sure that it appeared that every good faith effort was explored in the pursuit of keeping Barkley. IOW, a PR campaign to keep fans happy, but specifically designed to discourage Barkley from signing.
As for the $11M in cap space that the Giants have right now, that's the operating budget for this season. There's room for maybe 1-2 journeymen that make slightly more than the minimum, but that's not big ticket shopping kind of money. The Giants (like most teams) earmark around $10M for in-season activity. The Giants didn't have space for that earmark this year without altering other contracts. Waller's retirement gave them their breathing room, not a windfall for free agency.
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In comment 16551180 90.Cal said:
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In comment 16550586 fish3321 said:
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
wilkins got 27.5m aav, 57m fully guaranteed.
burns got 28.2m aav 76m fully guarantted.
they effectively got the same contracts except with burns getting 1 extra guaranteed year (likely in large part bc he is 2 years younger). burns got 3 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options, wilkins got 2 guaranteed years + 2 nongtd options.
Ok so yeah for that price point alone you’d probably rather have the edge guy… (without factoring the 2nd round pick) I thought Wilkins was at around $22M… maybe that was NYG’s projection for him (which seemed low all around this year)
the cap shooting up changed things for everyone and the top FA got more overpaid than usual. in no world should wilkins be making 5m more per year than Dex's 22.5m signed only 12 months ago. but that's what happens on the open market when there is more money than good players to go around. the best players on the open market get bid up even though they arent the best players but rather the best available.
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In comment 16550586 fish3321 said:
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id rather have than Brian burns.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
Bingo… plus how many millions less would Wilkins have been? Enough o sign Barkley maybe??? Ouch
The Giants had enough money to afford the price that they had in mind for Barkley.
The Giants didn't run out of money for Barkley; they ran out of desire to meet his asking price. That wouldn't have changed with Wilkins instead of Burns.
How much better (if at all) is Wilkins than Leo? Dex/Leo/Thibs/ xx couldn't generate pressure on their own.
How much better (if at all) is Wilkins than Leo? Dex/Leo/Thibs/ xx couldn't generate pressure on their own.
this is a good observation. leo has actually historically been the better pass rusher including last year by a bunch of metrics. that's why he got another big contract even on the wrong side of 30. getting the most productive pass rusher at the youngest age was likely the primary motivation but trying a new formula was probably part of the appeal.
i think that's what they are teasing we'll see in the next episode.
It changes the entire complexion of the defense.
Link - ( New Window )
Mike Garafolo and Ryan Dunleavy both reported that to be incorrect and reported the specific details of what Barkley was looking for.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
New: In the end, #Giants and Saquon Barkley couldn't bridge a gap of less than $2 million in both average annual salary and guarantees over the first 2 years, sources said. Both sides felt they budged enough and now it feels like a big risk for both https://nypost.com/2023/07/17/saquon-barkley-giants-cant-reach-deal-ahead-of-contract-deadline/ #nyg
Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The staggering part of the #Giants and Saquon Barkley being unable to reach a deal is how close they were.
@rydunleavy’s reporting is in line with what I’ve heard regarding the spread between the sides. It seemed close enough to bridge as the deadline drew near. Didn’t happen.
4:40 PM · Jul 17, 2023 https://nypost.com/2023/07/17/saquon-barkley-giants-cant-reach-deal-ahead-of-contract-deadline/ - ( New Window ) [/quote]
Barkley already rejected reported giant 3-year contract offers during and after 2022 season, that by reports were above the franchise tag and IMO were very fair. By rejecting this Barkley hurt the giants 3 ways in early 2023:
a) by Barkley signing and with positive contract structure, more available money to sign higher quality free agents;
b) this impacts decisions made on needs for 2023 upcoming draft;
c) increases giant leverage with signing Jones in 2023
This would have given Schoen more than enough reason to be more hardline in his July 2023 negotiations with Barkley since he already lost these positives by that time.
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I agree with Schoen complaining about how hard it was dealing with franchising Barkley. It's part of the job.
My guess is privately Schoen's view is something like:
Dude, I don't even want you here, and the only reason I offered this much is because my boss keeps coming in my office telling me how much he loves you.
The worst outcome for Schoen is Philly validating Mara's perspective. And if Barkley has a huge season, it will be a credibility eroding problem for Schoen in Mara's eyes.
Barkley is going to do well in Philly. Why is that even a question? Frankly, Schoen offered Barkley virtually the same deal mid 2022. So I do not blame Schoen for being a bit miffed. Then Barkley dragged his ass after the Tag. So Schoen had had enough.
Schoen is right with his decision on Barkley. I like SB a lot, but the numbers are the numbers. I think Barkley and his agents blew it in 2022, but Barkley is pissed at Schoen - wrongly. Very similar to Love. Schoen offered the correct number and both turned it down. Schoen moved on. Plain and simple.
Basically, Schoen took the Barkley money and got some oline.
It is clear that while Mara has his druthers, Schoen rules the roost. The Maras have always loved their players as family, especially the Favs, and that is why the Giants have trouble holding on to players too long.
Interesting. Thanks.
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but I am just curious if it has been reported whether Saquon actually came back to the Giants with the Eagles offer? I think if he did not do that after saying he would (kind of) that would be a really bad move. Just curious if this has come out today.
i think that's what they are teasing we'll see in the next episode.
On that phone call Barkley seemed to indicate that he’d already told Schoen his asking price. Could be that I misinterpreted what he said, and hindsight is 20/20. To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
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interesting documentary the NFL films put out was on the Roku channel "The Pick is In"; they did a new one this year for the 2024 draft that came out a couple of weeks ago, and one of the scenes it had was the Bears war room when the Giants were on the clock and universally they all thought the Giants were taking Nabers. Kevin Warren, the Bears President, says "They'll take Nabers, they gotta get the Quarterback some help". All their focus was on getting one of the two WR's (Odunze or Nabers) but it was interesting to see an outside organization sounding like it wasnt even a thought in their mind that the Giants would take McCarthy.
Interesting. Thanks.
Chicago couldn’t get to the podium fast enough to pick Odunze after Atlanta took Penix Jr.
Excellent stuff. I'll try to check that out.
i think you are right about this - but id imagine the main source of that frustration was hearing schoen spend 2 years saying they wanted him back and yet didnt put any offer on the table.
schoen was the one with the power of this decision not barkley, and he did nothing with the powers he had (be it putting an offer on the table or tagging or trading him earlier). he just let the clock run out (which i suspect was intentional but if not it was just stupid).
Until you see more evidence?
So Garofolo, multiple beat writers for both teams and a national reporter reporting what the offer was is not “enough evidence”?
What would be the determining factor that you would deem is “enough evidence”?
Seems like you are just trying to holding on the the narrative that they still want Jones and didn’t try to get Maye
Read what I wrote. I said I could see the interest in Maye, and discussions with New England, but I could also see Schoen being perfectly content sticking with Jones if they couldn't execute a trade.
What I don't know is how hard to the hole Schoen went to make a deal to buy the 3rd pick.
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Until you see more evidence?
So Garofolo, multiple beat writers for both teams and a national reporter reporting what the offer was is not “enough evidence”?
What would be the determining factor that you would deem is “enough evidence”?
Seems like you are just trying to holding on the the narrative that they still want Jones and didn’t try to get Maye
Read what I wrote. I said I could see the interest in Maye, and discussions with New England, but I could also see Schoen being perfectly content sticking with Jones if they couldn't execute a trade.
What I don't know is how hard to the hole Schoen went to make a deal to buy the 3rd pick.
No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
The frustration of dealing with Barkley, calling his Giant for Life bluff, and pressure from ownership all couldn't be more clear IMO
This is a good take. Barkley essentially helped screw up the Giants plans, and now he's gone to PHI with his middle finger in the air. That said, without having anything to do with Barkley, the Giants wanted to get DJ signed longterm after 2022, because they were concerned about the QB market values skyrocketing paired with DJ producing more with a better supporting cast.
They gambled that what happened last year wouldn't. And now that it has, the Barkley fiasco from a year ago feels like a fresh wound. As Schoen's refrain has been, had he simply accepted the original offer they all would've been fine.
No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Supposed terms were reported. That could mean Schoen was willing to consider two firsts, etc, but then he got cold feet. Maybe Wolf said toss in another player/second day pick, but Schoen wouldn't go that far.
So, I don't know what the actual BAFO was.
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No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Supposed terms were reported. That could mean Schoen was willing to consider two firsts, etc, but then he got cold feet. Maybe Wolf said toss in another player/second day pick, but Schoen wouldn't go that far.
So, I don't know what the actual BAFO was.
Oh….so now it’s supposed terms….gotcha
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In comment 16551328 Mbavaro said:
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No….you read what I wrote….the terms were released what they were willing to give up
Supposed terms were reported. That could mean Schoen was willing to consider two firsts, etc, but then he got cold feet. Maybe Wolf said toss in another player/second day pick, but Schoen wouldn't go that far.
So, I don't know what the actual BAFO was.
Oh….so now it’s supposed terms….gotcha
I don't know why this is confusing for you, but unless a trade is completed, the terms of an incomplete trade discussion are ALWAYS speculative.
I do tend to believe Garafolo's voice on the matter, but as a matter of common sense, there are only two ways to ever truly KNOW the terms of a trade negotiation: 1) the trade actually gets completed; 2) both teams expressly confirm the best and final offer/ask.
Oh….so now it’s supposed terms….gotcha
Let me add this. If you really identify a franchise QB that you think will move your franchise forward, and you are willing to sell assets to get him, then you find a way to make the deal. It's that simple. Because if you nail it, the deal will pay for itself.
Accorsi really wanted Eli, so he found a way.
I think Schoen liked Maye, but he didn't love him enough to move off Jones and really change the direction of the franchise.
So, we enter year six with Jones.
there is a reasonable argument both ways but i think an edge bender like burns is just too hard to find elsewhere. also a couple years younger than wilkins. there's a reason he got tagged and had trade value, players like him at that age do not hit the open market.
since last summer it's been clear schoen didnt want to bring barkley back. i hope motor works out and does a good job but i think schoen dropped the ball on that one. the deal barkley's team proposed last year, encompassing the $10m from tag, was fair. ed berry clearly saw the writing on the wall and i thought it was interesting when he asked schoen point blank if they wanted to move on he answered like natalie imbruglia. i give him credit for taking the less comfortable path, but i dont think that's going to provide much respite if barkley gains 2k yards and 10+ tds in philly this year. hopefully that OL implodes without kelce. schoen's entire strategy in that negotiation was reactive vs proactive. i would have liked to see more of daboll's thoughts on that but it seems like the giants put a wall up on that.
Is the issue Barkley (team icon) vs no Barkley?
Or is it that Daboll has sold the organization on the idea that a "bell cow" RB is a bad philosophy?
- What happens if he goes down? (We'vd experienced that!)
- RBBC gives the coordinator the ability to execute the "what you saw last week may not be what you see this week" strategy.
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Oh….so now it’s supposed terms….gotcha
Let me add this. If you really identify a franchise QB that you think will move your franchise forward, and you are willing to sell assets to get him, then you find a way to make the deal. It's that simple. Because if you nail it, the deal will pay for itself.
Accorsi really wanted Eli, so he found a way.
I think Schoen liked Maye, but he didn't love him enough to move off Jones and really change the direction of the franchise.
So, we enter year six with Jones.
Accorsi had a willing partner to trade
Schoen did not and you never no idea how much he may have liked Maye….could have been the price was too steep
Takes two to tango
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"We need to get around this kid and see if we can work with him because there is a lot to his personality,” area scout Scott Hamel said.
Is this an indication they were/are concerned about the high maintenance rumor (see: strip club video)? Or they think he just has an outgoing personality?
This coupled with watching a ton of Odunze last season and then seeing him in this episode has me really wishing we took him. Nabers seems like he is going to be a very high risk/high reward pick. Odunze ceiling may be lower by a smidge but his floor is absolutely higher by a mile. Barring injury he will be a hell of a player.
Really hope we got it right. All coaches think they can help players be who they need to be. It ain't that easy.
I agree with the old fashioned NYG philosophy of intelligence and character being important. If you deviate you can get burned (e.g. DeAndre Baker).
But at the very elite level, the very same characteristics that make a player a "rebel" vs contemporary standards are the same that make him "All Pro" (see Taylor, Lawrence; Lewis, Ray)
The staff, led by have decided to take that gamble.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
This seems very obvious. NYG badly wanted Maye.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
Thanks for sharing this. That is a very generous offer by Schoen - and clearly indicates he wanted Maye badly. My guess is the Pats sensed at some point that the JJM-mania was just subterfuge and realized they would be insane not to simply sit tight and take Maye. Smart decision by them and unfortunate for us.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
Are you suggesting we should give Schoen credit for trying "hard"?
There is that line in the movie Social Network where the Mark Zuckerberg character says to the Winklevoss twins that if they were the inventors of Facebook, they would have invented Facebook.
If Schoen really wanted Maye, the Giants would have Maye on their roster right now.
Watch Schoen when he calls Barkley's agent.
1. Schoen contacted the Pats early and often regarding what it would take to get a deal done.
2. Early on he made an Offer of our 2024 1st pick, 2025 1st and 2025 3rd pick for their 2024 1st round (#3)
3. Stayed in touch constantly monitoring the situation, Kraft and the Pats were known to be in love with JJM.
4. Once the draftboards were set and JJM wasn't in the top ten for the Pats....the conversations internally changed.
5. Giants were told they needed to up the ante either day of the draft or the day before. They finally relented and added a pick. I was never told what additional pick they offered.
The Pats decided to keep the pick, end of story.
Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
I remember you telling us. Thanks for sharing again.
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Draw whatever conclusions you want. The Giants tried hard to get Maye, it didn't work out.
Are you suggesting we should give Schoen credit for trying "hard"?
There is that line in the movie Social Network where the Mark Zuckerberg character says to the Winklevoss twins that if they were the inventors of Facebook, they would have invented Facebook.
If Schoen really wanted Maye, the Giants would have Maye on their roster right now.
bw in dc, you're smarter than that response.
If the Pats really wanted Maye, he'd be a Patriot right now.
And he is.
Accorsi really wanted Eli, so he found a way.
Why exactly is *this* the choice? Who says Nabers can't be a cornerstone franchise WR?
Why is Odunze certainly not one of the many jumbo-sized WRs that fail?
The Dolphins reportedly offered three 1st round picks for Burrow. Guess what, the Bengals didn't move him.
Your argument would carry a lot more weight had the Patriots traded the pick. They didn't.
Thats Cooper Dejean or Kool Aid Mckinstry
This is like taking the new car or the mystery box on a game show.
Would you rather have a 25 year old pro bowl pass rusher or a rookie cornerback who it hasn't been determined can actually play at this level.
The Dolphins reportedly offered three 1st round picks for Burrow. Guess what, the Bengals didn't move him.
Your argument would carry a lot more weight had the Patriots traded the pick. They didn't.
If true, that was a great offer by Miami. And if I am a Fins fan, I could live with that effort. Although I believe that was all three if Miami's firsts in the 2020 draft, not future drafts...?
Of course, Miami compounded that miss by passing on Herbert.
It doesn't appear from reporting that Schoen went with a package that strong. It was only two firsts, not three. That is a material difference.
How about duplicating the Hershel Walker trade for Maye?
If someone loves your house, they can offer you 10x over its value, but if you don't want to sell, you don't have to.
You can offer a team the proverbial "King's Ransom", but if they don't want to trade, it doesn't happen.
Maye could turn out to be an amazing pro, but at an average 50% bust rate for first round QBs, there is a point where the price is too high.
It would be interesting to read how far you would have gone to "make the Pats an offer they couldn't refuse".
2024, 2025 and 2026 first rounders?
2024, 2025 and 2026 first rounders and Andrew Thomas?
2024, 2025 and 2026 first rounders and Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence?
2024, 2025 and 2026 first, second and third rounders?
Yes, Schoen could have offered 9 draft picks and two All Pro players and the Pats would have taken the deal. Would that make Schoen a good GM?
Schoen likely offered a "premium" for a potential franchise QB and that wasn't enough.
He can try again in 2025.
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In the end, would the Giants prefer a dominant 3-4 year stretch like OBJ had here, or a cornerstone franchise WR like Mike Evans over a 10 season stretch.
Why exactly is *this* the choice? Who says Nabers can't be a cornerstone franchise WR?
Why is Odunze certainly not one of the many jumbo-sized WRs that fail?
He’s not jumbo sized, he’s 6’3 215-220 lbs. He also has a strong work ethic and solid production in college. He has everything possible to succeed at the NFL level.
I heard it reported that it was a 2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and then they added a 5th as well to sweeten the pot. This was reported by the Talkin Giants guys and given what Rico reported the day of the draft, I have to believe Schoen thought he had a deal. Then the Pats retreated.
Everyone believes what they want to believe I suppose.
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Assuming the reports are accurate about Schoen's offer to Wolfe (the 6th pick and the first in 2024), was that a fair offer or a great offer?
I heard it reported that it was a 2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and then they added a 5th as well to sweeten the pot. This was reported by the Talkin Giants guys and given what Rico reported the day of the draft, I have to believe Schoen thought he had a deal. Then the Pats retreated.
Everyone believes what they want to believe I suppose.
I'm glad you raised the Rico reference because I have been meaning to go back and read that draft say thread.
Anyway, you're a smart guy. Do you think that offer you cited was a great offer or a very fair offer?
Wasn't SF making a higher jump than 6 to 3?
bw: Schoen would have needed to throw in a 2026 first to really get NE's attention I'm sure. Was that ever on the table? I don't know. Would NE have done it? Who knows.
Then you get to a point where it's a bigger return than the move for Eli.
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You're digging your heels in way too much. I get you want it to be all about Jones and how much this regime loves him.
The Dolphins reportedly offered three 1st round picks for Burrow. Guess what, the Bengals didn't move him.
Your argument would carry a lot more weight had the Patriots traded the pick. They didn't.
If true, that was a great offer by Miami. And if I am a Fins fan, I could live with that effort. Although I believe that was all three if Miami's firsts in the 2020 draft, not future drafts...?
Of course, Miami compounded that miss by passing on Herbert.
It doesn't appear from reporting that Schoen went with a package that strong. It was only two firsts, not three. That is a material difference.
Even so, I would think our package is better than theirs (5, 18, and 30). It’s a good bet our ‘25 pick would be in the top-10 with a rookie QB and no Nabers.
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To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
i think you are right about this - but id imagine the main source of that frustration was hearing schoen spend 2 years saying they wanted him back and yet didnt put any offer on the table.
FFS, how did Schoen not put any offer on the table since July 2022? That's just demonstrably not true.
Schoen did the right thing here, IMO, and probably a year too late actually. Barkley wanted more money than he was worth. But based on everything we've seen, Mara most likely wouldn't let Barkley walk away in 2023.
The short answer is IF that was the Giants offered as compensation to the Pats, that wasn't a great offer by the Giants and would not indicate Schoen really wanted Maye.
Assuming the compensation offered was more like what Rico/Sean indicated (2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and 2024 or 2025 5th) that is at least a fair offer, maybe a borderline great offer to drop only from 3rd overall to 6th overall.
Assuming the above (2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and 2024 or 2025 5th) was the offer and it was rejected by the Pats, how much more would you be willing to give up to sweeten the offer?
2024 2nd?
2024 and 2025 2nd?
2024 2nd and 2026 1st?
I think if the Giants gave up much more than what was reportedly offered to trade up for Maye, they would had to be close to 100% certain Maye was going to be a future franchise QB. These teams likely were just a certain they were drafting (and in multiple cases, trading up to get them) a future franchise QB.
2017 2nd M Trubisky
2018 2nd S Darnold
2021 2nd Z Wilson
2021 3rd T Lance
The 49ers got very lucky that after they whiffed on Lance, the hit on Purdy.
We'll likely never know whether the Pats would have listened to an even sweeter offer or if they just stopped picking up the phone (as Chicago likely did).
Nabers + 2024 3rd (A Phillips) + 2025 1st + 2025 5th >> Maye IMHO
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In comment 16551460 bw in dc said:
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Assuming the reports are accurate about Schoen's offer to Wolfe (the 6th pick and the first in 2024), was that a fair offer or a great offer?
I heard it reported that it was a 2024 first, 2024 third, 2025 first and then they added a 5th as well to sweeten the pot. This was reported by the Talkin Giants guys and given what Rico reported the day of the draft, I have to believe Schoen thought he had a deal. Then the Pats retreated.
Everyone believes what they want to believe I suppose.
I'm glad you raised the Rico reference because I have been meaning to go back and read that draft say thread.
Anyway, you're a smart guy. Do you think that offer you cited was a great offer or a very fair offer?
I think it was a more than fair offer. It was "only" three spots and fantastic players were still going to be available including McCarthy(most likely). It is not like NE was losing its ability to get a great player.
What is clear is that it didn't matter what was offered because the Pats wanted Maye and weren't moving.
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In comment 16551298 RCPhoenix said:
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To me it Barkley had made his mind up & he felt disrespected by Schoen. Again - it was only one phone call. Still, he had one foot out of the door.
i think you are right about this - but id imagine the main source of that frustration was hearing schoen spend 2 years saying they wanted him back and yet didnt put any offer on the table.
FFS, how did Schoen not put any offer on the table since July 2022? That's just demonstrably not true.
Schoen did the right thing here, IMO, and probably a year too late actually. Barkley wanted more money than he was worth. But based on everything we've seen, Mara most likely wouldn't let Barkley walk away in 2023.
Outside of his rookie year, SB hasn't been worth the money he wanted. He and his agents badly overplayed their hand and contributed to the mess that ensued. See ya.
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In comment 16550624 christian said:
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Eric, I wonder if Schoen is actually talking about last year.
My subjective, opinionated take is that Schoen didn't really want Barkley back and Barkley didn't really want to come back.
Everything else seems like background noise to me.
This.
Schoen in his absolute gut knows paying that position that contract hurts you in team building. Berry called him out on it over the phone - and I think he was right.
It also sounds like from a business perspective these guys have some bad blood after last offseason - it was a good thing for both parties to walk away.
Didn't Barkley change agents after last year?
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It can’t be more clear how the Barkley situation played out the past 18+ months. Mara and Co desperately wanted him to be the face of the franchise for the next 25 years, and already ordering the ring of honor signage. And willing to resign him at any cost.
Schoen felt the pressure, and offered more than a fair number. Seems Schoen felt they were close to a deal, and could franchise Jones. And something blew up at the end, forcing the Jones contract.
We know the Jones contract went down to the last minute. I think the Barkley contract blowing up and pivot to Jones deal is what took the ten years off Schoen life.
I think Schoen Daboll like Jones. But would have preferred a franchise contract rather than the commitment. Jones injury, I think is where Schoen feels Barkley screwed the franchise by not agreeing to a deal to allow the Jones franchise tag…
I 100% agree. It's total conjecture of course, but all the pieces fit. It looks to me like Schoen's directive in the 2023 offseason was to keep both Barkley and Jones, and Schoen rightly wanted to sign Barkley and franchise Jones (if Jones wouldn't take a reasonable deal).
Barkley fucked that plan by demanding an extra year or whatever (after signing with the Eables Barkley said he got the 4th guaranteed year that he wanted, i.e. 2023 with the Giants and the 3 years with the Eagles) so Schoen had to pivot with little time to sign Jones to a deal that wouldn't screw the 2023 cap (barley eating up $12 million by getting the FT), but because Jones's camp was playing hardball and knew they had all the leverage (time running out, no more franchise tag), Jone's deal ended up with a big cap hit in 2024.
That's why Schoen kept mentioning the $40 million. He is freakin annoyed, IMO, that he is stuck with Jones on what is now his THIRD prove-it year, except now he has to pay Jones $40 million to prove his worth. He couldn't let Jones walk in FA because Mara wanted him on the team (again, just conjecture, but certainly looks that way based on what we've seen so far).
I think this is the best explanation
However, he's smart enough to know what the right response should be too.
****
Pivoting to Nabers... was Nabers smart enough to honestly admit he hates losing more than he likes winning?
That's usually a canned response too.
But if not, that's the kind of player we need. That's what Bill Parcells actually looked for.
So did Gettleman. Lol
49ers gave up the 12th overall, two future firsts (next yr + 2 yrs away), and a third to get to 3rd. So the difference between that and the Giants offer is 12th overall +a first round pick in two years versus 6th overall. At the very least those are comparable, but IMO a 6th is probably worth more than 12th + a first round pick in two years.
Also keep in mind the Dolphins actually moved up to 6th in the same draft, so effectively the Dolphins got:
3rd overall in exchange for 6th overall, a first in two years, and 3rd round pick
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
This!!!!
But it destroys the narrative of the usual suspects that the team is still all in on DJ
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on the trade up for Maye thing.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
This!!!!
But it destroys the narrative of the usual suspects that the team is still all in on DJ
I haven't seen a single BBIer say the Giants are "all in" on DJ. Nor one who thinks they should be now, or a year ago.
His contract told the tale, even before Schoen said the plan was always to give him 2 years to show he's the guy for the next 10.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
+1.
also there was a recent trade of #6 for #3 where a QB was selected. Jets moved up for Darnold, who like Maye was considered at the time a 1oa quality prospect.
that cost them 3 second rounders. 2 in 2018, 1 the following year. by all accounts the nyg were willing to give up more than that offer.
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In comment 16551639 Biteymax22 said:
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on the trade up for Maye thing.
Bottom line, there's a lot of evidence to show that we were willing to give up multiple premium assets to acquire him. We wouldn't have done that if Jones was in the long term plans.
Our roster needs players, I fully understand why a line was drawn in the sand on what we'd give up for Maye, but don't act like we didn't offer a lot to get him.
This!!!!
But it destroys the narrative of the usual suspects that the team is still all in on DJ
I haven't seen a single BBIer say the Giants are "all in" on DJ. Nor one who thinks they should be now, or a year ago.
His contract told the tale, even before Schoen said the plan was always to give him 2 years to show he's the guy for the next 10.
Really?
I’ve seen many opine that the offer to Maye wasn’t that strong and that the team still believes in DJ
Or that there interest in a QB was just a smokescreen
You are quoting from Hard Knocks….I am referring to pre HK before we heard Schoen say they quote about 2 years
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<snip>
Really?
I’ve seen many opine that the offer to Maye wasn’t that strong and that the team still believes in DJ
Or that there interest in a QB was just a smokescreen
You are quoting from Hard Knocks….I am referring to pre HK before we heard Schoen say they quote about 2 years
Like I said, the contract told the tale a year ago - a 2 year commitment. Schoen didn't have to say it.
Who knows about Maye. It could have been a smokescreen - the people (led by Dan Duggan) who reported it or wish continue to call it fact. As Jones told one of the reporters - he doesn't know what happened draft day and (the reporter) doesn't either. Maybe we'll find out more in the next episode.
We don't know exactly what they think of DJ. Obviously they think they can win with him. But from declining his option to a contract structured for a 2 year out to Schoen's HK comments, the one thing we know is they've never been all in. I'd have worried if they were.
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In comment 16551414 JoeyBigBlue said:
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In the end, would the Giants prefer a dominant 3-4 year stretch like OBJ had here, or a cornerstone franchise WR like Mike Evans over a 10 season stretch.
Why exactly is *this* the choice? Who says Nabers can't be a cornerstone franchise WR?
Why is Odunze certainly not one of the many jumbo-sized WRs that fail?
He’s not jumbo sized, he’s 6’3 215-220 lbs. He also has a strong work ethic and solid production in college. He has everything possible to succeed at the NFL level.
Nearly every player projected to round 1 does. They dont all work. Not remotely suggesting he'd fail, but i dont understad those two outcomes seemingly being what you're choosing between.
RE: Barkley - he was disappointed. He wanted to stay a Giant and he wanted the most money he could get. It's a business, but feelings get involved as well.
Didn't anyone think Worthy could still run even a little bit faster? Last could steps he looked like he was transitioning to look at the clock. That guy looks like he could bet closer to high 4.1_ territory.
What the offer confirms is that Schoen, Daboll, etc. are not sold on Jones. More proof is his contract, which has a $22M "out" after this year.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
Alt was never their target and when someone as low-rung as Bisignano is the only "insider" claiming that, it's time to find a different podcast.
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The Giants Insider with Jerry Foley and Chris Bisignano. Chris believes strongly they were trying to move up and snag Joe Alt. Entire QB play, to him, was a smoke screen.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
Alt was never their target and when someone as low-rung as Bisignano is the only "insider" claiming that, it's time to find a different podcast.
I like Jerry Foley, and tune out Chris.
But he's not the only person saying it. Adam Schefter was all over it.
Vintage Eric and crew.
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The Giants Insider with Jerry Foley and Chris Bisignano. Chris believes strongly they were trying to move up and snag Joe Alt. Entire QB play, to him, was a smoke screen.
I have total confidence they were picking Maye at #3 if they were ever able to move up. Especially with Schoen and how often he's brought up Daniel's availability over the last three seasons.
Alt was never their target and when someone as low-rung as Bisignano is the only "insider" claiming that, it's time to find a different podcast.
Wow. I'm glad I don't listen to that podcast. What a moronic statement by Bisignano. Sure, they were going to trade up for Alt yet they didn't engage with the Cardinals at all once Maye was taken.
Sy doesn't believe the Giants were interested in trading up for Maye. Not sure why. Seems pretty clear to me.
Again, if the Giants were so enamored with Alt, why didn't they talk with Arizona? I believe it was reported Schoen didn't even call them once NE selected Maye.
I think you are right.
Sy seemed to be suggesting that since the OL had so many holes, and there were/are huge question marks surrounding a high investment like Neal, going for Alt would make sense.
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though i think he clarified that it was his opinion not sourced reporting. could be mixing that up though.
Sy doesn't believe the Giants were interested in trading up for Maye. Not sure why. Seems pretty clear to me.
Again, if the Giants were so enamored with Alt, why didn't they talk with Arizona? I believe it was reported Schoen didn't even call them once NE selected Maye.
i agree with you, i think this is pretty obvious. through 3 years schoen hasnt been all that concerned with hiding his thoughts/intentions. i very much doubt there was a super secret plan to move up for alt that has eluded every beat writer. drake maye was/is a really good prospect who they liked a lot and NE also liked enough to not be willing to draft down 3 slots while picking up another QB they allegedly also really liked with JJM.
- Hannah WoW
- good seeing the real Daboll, how he relates to players and how really knowledgable he is about offense