The guys clearly an offensive genius- if he can learn the leadership part of being a coach he’ll do great.
Schoen- weirdly I feel worse. It’s not that his moves look worse it’s just the body language. He’s more … goofy? … than I thought he’d be. This is admittedly non scientific and perhaps doesn’t mean anything but the initial Blink-like impression I get of him is that he’s a lot less serious and formidable than I thought he’d be
I feel better about Schoen. He seems inexperienced but his path to the roll is positive. He didn't skip any jobs on his way to being a GM and he has grown into each roll.
It's clear ownership voices their opinions. I hope Schoen develops a method for ignoring Mara.
Schoen has a good process. I love that he cares about the data and was not really interested in signing Barkley. He just had to humor Mara. His allocation of resources is smart. The fact that he got Burns for a lot less then he initially thought is very impressive.
The giants owners voicing their opinion on personnel is not anything new. It seems clear to me that Schoen and Daboll are directing the personnel decisions why also hearing what Mara has to say.
I feel way better about Daboll after last night to be honest but would hope he could take some of his "savantness" and drop it into DJ's brain.....because it will be much needed with these WR's and the routes they plan to run.
Schoen always struck me as a very confident guy who knows what he wants. As he spends more and more time on the job, it is clear he is the GUY and he knows he is the GUY. Even seeing the teaser with Mara in Schoen's office; Joe is the alpha.
To be fair I've kind of had it on in the background and not dived into every detail. But I have very little confidence in this coaching staff, front office, and especially ownership.
I liked Daboll going in, and I like him even more now. Smart, authentic, experienced, savvy, etc. He has the potential to be a legendary head coach.
I was concerned about Schoen going in, I am even more concerned now and am not at all convinced that he is the right guy for this job going forward. That phone call with Saquon shows a complete ignorance for how badly he handled DJ and SB last year. To expect Saquon to do him a solid after quibbling over peanuts on a contract last year while simultaneously awarding DJ an undeserved and massive overpayment, four times more than what SB was asking for, reveals a naïveté far worse than I would have expected from a seasoned executive. Schoen treated SB like dog shit last year. So he had to know there would be no future here for Saquon if he wasn't prepared to tag him again. The smart move therefore was to trade him at the deadline and get something of value and at least try to direct him to the AFC in the future.
I like Mara as a person and believe he genuinely means well, but I have felt for years that he is overwhelmingly out of touch with what is needed to win championships in today's NFL. His remark in the coming attractions at the end of the episode that "...I will lose sleep if we lose Saquon" is about as out of touch as anything I could have ever expected to hear from an owner of an NFL franchise. Quite the opposite is in order, John. You need to wake up and open your eyes! You lost SB last year when you anointed DJ as the savior and treated Saquon like crap!
I liked Daboll going in, and I like him even more now. Smart, authentic, experienced, savvy, etc. He has the potential to be a legendary head coach.
I was concerned about Schoen going in, I am even more concerned now and am not at all convinced that he is the right guy for this job going forward. That phone call with Saquon shows a complete ignorance for how badly he handled DJ and SB last year. To expect Saquon to do him a solid after quibbling over peanuts on a contract last year while simultaneously awarding DJ an undeserved and massive overpayment, four times more than what SB was asking for, reveals a naïveté far worse than I would have expected from a seasoned executive. Schoen treated SB like dog shit last year. So he had to know there would be no future here for Saquon if he wasn't prepared to tag him again. The smart move therefore was to trade him at the deadline and get something of value and at least try to direct him to the AFC in the future.
I like Mara as a person and believe he genuinely means well, but I have felt for years that he is overwhelmingly out of touch with what is needed to win championships in today's NFL. His remark in the coming attractions at the end of the episode that "...I will lose sleep if we lose Saquon" is about as out of touch as anything I could have ever expected to hear from an owner of an NFL franchise. Quite the opposite is in order, John. You need to wake up and open your eyes! You lost SB last year when you anointed DJ as the savior and treated Saquon like crap!
Didn't the Giants offer Saquon $12-13 million per season? What did the Eagles give him? I'm not seeing the disrespect here.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
Agreed about Daboll (although I’ve thought he was the real deal early on), and I too have mixed feelings about Schoen, although now more positive than negative. The ownership thing I’m not in total agreement about. My perception is that Schoen is clearly calling the shots. Ownership has input, but they should.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
i agree with your comments re daboll(better)/schoen(meh) which nets me to C neutral, but i dont think there is a single ownership group in any sport not involved in that same way. and the majority are much more involved/worse.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
i agree with your comments re daboll(better)/schoen(meh) which nets me to C neutral, but i dont think there is a single ownership group in any sport not involved in that same way. and the majority are much more involved/worse.
no owner of any $bn+ asset is going to be completely hands off. the question is if they trust their subject matter experts to make tough decisions and it's clear in this case they do.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
i agree with your comments re daboll(better)/schoen(meh) which nets me to C neutral, but i dont think there is a single ownership group in any sport not involved in that same way. and the majority are much more involved/worse.
But our owner is George Costanza.
he's more of a wet noodle than costanza. and a wet noodle isnt the worst thing in an owner, it's a bigger problem if you have a stronger personality like tepper who thinks he knows everything. remember a few years ago when BBI was clamoring for a forward thinking owner like that?
if mara gets the right leadership in place the team will succeed. getting the right leadership has been the problem.
I liked Daboll going in, and I like him even more now. Smart, authentic, experienced, savvy, etc. He has the potential to be a legendary head coach.
I was concerned about Schoen going in, I am even more concerned now and am not at all convinced that he is the right guy for this job going forward. That phone call with Saquon shows a complete ignorance for how badly he handled DJ and SB last year. To expect Saquon to do him a solid after quibbling over peanuts on a contract last year while simultaneously awarding DJ an undeserved and massive overpayment, four times more than what SB was asking for, reveals a naïveté far worse than I would have expected from a seasoned executive. Schoen treated SB like dog shit last year. So he had to know there would be no future here for Saquon if he wasn't prepared to tag him again. The smart move therefore was to trade him at the deadline and get something of value and at least try to direct him to the AFC in the future.
I like Mara as a person and believe he genuinely means well, but I have felt for years that he is overwhelmingly out of touch with what is needed to win championships in today's NFL. His remark in the coming attractions at the end of the episode that "...I will lose sleep if we lose Saquon" is about as out of touch as anything I could have ever expected to hear from an owner of an NFL franchise. Quite the opposite is in order, John. You need to wake up and open your eyes! You lost SB last year when you anointed DJ as the savior and treated Saquon like crap!
Didn't the Giants offer Saquon $12-13 million per season? What did the Eagles give him? I'm not seeing the disrespect here.
My understanding was that they were a couple million dollars apart in terms of guarantees at the March 2023 deadline. And that was the reason they had to franchise him and pay DJ the enormous contract. And then later in the year, they were still a couple million dollars apart on a multi-year contract, so Saquon signed the franchise tender prior to training camp rather than holding out. In his mind, he was "doing the Giants a solid" on the expectation that the contract he was looking for, essentially guaranteeing the dollars of two franchise tags, which is what the Eagles accepted, would be coming in 2024. So in his mind, he was treated like crap. And Mara/Schoen should have known that and traded him at the deadline knowing they would not budge in their position.
The giants owners voicing their opinion on personnel is not anything new. It seems clear to me that Schoen and Daboll are directing the personnel decisions why also hearing what Mara has to say.
100%, some who continue to say Mara dictates personal decisions don't really know. I don't think so. I believe the new regime is in charge. Of course, the boss gives his opinions.
My wife is a neutral observer who does not know much about the Giants way, but is in TV and just randomly asked me what is so special about Joe Schoen that he has this job? It is actually a good question.
Realize, that Mara is an issue, but Schoen seems to have final word.
More sold on Daboll. He really is a brilliant football mind. Schoen its funny. GM wise I have always been optimistic, like him and think he has the right philosophy though some of his major decisions have not gone so well. I will say this seeing Schoen on the show he seems a little dickish to me the way he carries himself. No so much in dealing with things like Saquon (He completely did the right thing there including his interactions with the agent and Saquon himself) just more in every day conversations and the way he carries himself. Thats fine though its not a major thing, nowhere near Gettleman level and all I care about is how good he is at his job and the Giants winning and time will tell with that.
I feel like Schoen's interest in Barkley was just too appease Mara and never really had any interest in resigning him. The offers always seemed to fall short.
I think Barkley is taking too much heat about the phone call as he probably thought that Schoen was franchise tagging him.
I think Schoen is excited to see this team molded in his vision sans Barkley, but his downfall is going to be Evan Neal and Daniel Jones.
To be fair I've kind of had it on in the background and not dived into every detail. But I have very little confidence in this coaching staff, front office, and especially ownership.
my Costanza comment is in reference to "every instinct I've had in my life is wrong".
right and my point is so long as they continue to be wet noodles, their instincts dont matter nearly as much as the instincts of the people they hire.
that's not the case with the majority of owners who dont give their people free hand.
we are in agreement re their instincts when it comes to the decisions we know they make (hiring/firing). they wanted to hire brian flores as he was drafting a law suit against them and probably would have if joe schoen didnt have the authority to go with his guy.
see the summary I just posted in the pinned thread a about the contract offer.
You are right. Schoen appears to have essentially given Saquon exactly what he wanted and then Saquon spit in his face and took the Eagles deal. So the question is why? My guess is, in Saquon's mind, the simultaneous massive overpayment to DJ with the "nickel and diming" negotiation last year was an act of complete disrespect. He no doubt felt that he was the guy who was truly most responsible for the success in 2022, not DJ. And so the only solution last year was to franchise DJ and either give Saquon what he wanted or let him test the waters in free agency. The fact that he turned down what he wanted in March 2024 leads me to believe that Saquon held his nose last summer and signed the franchise tender, intending to never play another down for this team after the 2023 season.
I liked Daboll going in, and I like him even more now. Smart, authentic, experienced, savvy, etc. He has the potential to be a legendary head coach.
I was concerned about Schoen going in, I am even more concerned now and am not at all convinced that he is the right guy for this job going forward. That phone call with Saquon shows a complete ignorance for how badly he handled DJ and SB last year. To expect Saquon to do him a solid after quibbling over peanuts on a contract last year while simultaneously awarding DJ an undeserved and massive overpayment, four times more than what SB was asking for, reveals a naïveté far worse than I would have expected from a seasoned executive. Schoen treated SB like dog shit last year. So he had to know there would be no future here for Saquon if he wasn't prepared to tag him again. The smart move therefore was to trade him at the deadline and get something of value and at least try to direct him to the AFC in the future.
I like Mara as a person and believe he genuinely means well, but I have felt for years that he is overwhelmingly out of touch with what is needed to win championships in today's NFL. His remark in the coming attractions at the end of the episode that "...I will lose sleep if we lose Saquon" is about as out of touch as anything I could have ever expected to hear from an owner of an NFL franchise. Quite the opposite is in order, John. You need to wake up and open your eyes! You lost SB last year when you anointed DJ as the savior and treated Saquon like crap!
Serious question, but what is so bad about an owner saying he'd lose sleep over losing Saquan? I get that it can be perceived as exerting pressure on Schoen to resign him maybe, but other than that, what's the problem?
see the summary I just posted in the pinned thread a about the contract offer.
You are right. Schoen appears to have essentially given Saquon exactly what he wanted and then Saquon spit in his face and took the Eagles deal. So the question is why? My guess is, in Saquon's mind, the simultaneous massive overpayment to DJ with the "nickel and diming" negotiation last year was an act of complete disrespect. He no doubt felt that he was the guy who was truly most responsible for the success in 2022, not DJ. And so the only solution last year was to franchise DJ and either give Saquon what he wanted or let him test the waters in free agency. The fact that he turned down what he wanted in March 2024 leads me to believe that Saquon held his nose last summer and signed the franchise tender, intending to never play another down for this team after the 2023 season.
I have no doubt SB felt "disrespected", but boo hoo. He was offered a fair deal and got bad advice from Roc Nation. He is lucky he didn't tear his ACL again last year.
I also have no doubt that players are miffed at what Jones got.
My issues with Schoen and Barkley are not the contract offers, but the reluctance to deal him (unless ownership vetoed that). Before that, they should have let him leave last year and franchised Jones.
My spidey sense tells me ownership may have hampered any thoughts of that. Remember what the perception of ownership must have been in March 2023 (not March 2024).
the negotiations with Mckinney and Saquon was the jump in cap. that said i like the group that is building the team and its obv the old guard was getting in the way..
I liked Daboll going in, and I like him even more now. Smart, authentic, experienced, savvy, etc. He has the potential to be a legendary head coach.
I was concerned about Schoen going in, I am even more concerned now and am not at all convinced that he is the right guy for this job going forward. That phone call with Saquon shows a complete ignorance for how badly he handled DJ and SB last year. To expect Saquon to do him a solid after quibbling over peanuts on a contract last year while simultaneously awarding DJ an undeserved and massive overpayment, four times more than what SB was asking for, reveals a naïveté far worse than I would have expected from a seasoned executive. Schoen treated SB like dog shit last year. So he had to know there would be no future here for Saquon if he wasn't prepared to tag him again. The smart move therefore was to trade him at the deadline and get something of value and at least try to direct him to the AFC in the future.
I like Mara as a person and believe he genuinely means well, but I have felt for years that he is overwhelmingly out of touch with what is needed to win championships in today's NFL. His remark in the coming attractions at the end of the episode that "...I will lose sleep if we lose Saquon" is about as out of touch as anything I could have ever expected to hear from an owner of an NFL franchise. Quite the opposite is in order, John. You need to wake up and open your eyes! You lost SB last year when you anointed DJ as the savior and treated Saquon like crap!
Serious question, but what is so bad about an owner saying he'd lose sleep over losing Saquan? I get that it can be perceived as exerting pressure on Schoen to resign him maybe, but other than that, what's the problem?
It is being completely out of touch. Saquon was a scorned human being and "played the good soldier" last year only to get out of East Rutherford asap. The naïveté of both owner and GM is epic here! Saquon should have been traded last October. Expecting him to re-sign with the Giants was always folly. And now we know that what he got from Philadelphia was essentially the same as what the Giants offered. Frankly in hindsight, Schoen should have tagged him again this year and attempted to trade him. At least get something of value for God's sake!
see the summary I just posted in the pinned thread a about the contract offer.
You are right. Schoen appears to have essentially given Saquon exactly what he wanted and then Saquon spit in his face and took the Eagles deal. So the question is why? My guess is, in Saquon's mind, the simultaneous massive overpayment to DJ with the "nickel and diming" negotiation last year was an act of complete disrespect. He no doubt felt that he was the guy who was truly most responsible for the success in 2022, not DJ. And so the only solution last year was to franchise DJ and either give Saquon what he wanted or let him test the waters in free agency. The fact that he turned down what he wanted in March 2024 leads me to believe that Saquon held his nose last summer and signed the franchise tender, intending to never play another down for this team after the 2023 season.
I have no doubt SB felt "disrespected", but boo hoo. He was offered a fair deal and got bad advice from Roc Nation. He is lucky he didn't tear his ACL again last year.
I also have no doubt that players are miffed at what Jones got.
My issues with Schoen and Barkley are not the contract offers, but the reluctance to deal him (unless ownership vetoed that). Before that, they should have let him leave last year and franchised Jones.
My spidey sense tells me ownership may have hampered any thoughts of that. Remember what the perception of ownership must have been in March 2023 (not March 2024).
Then Schoen should have traded him in October or tagged him again this year and at least tried to trade him. He obviously forgot the old adage - Hell hath no fury like a scorned running back!
My spidey sense tells me ownership may have hampered any thoughts of that. Remember what the perception of ownership must have been in March 2023 (not March 2024).
Yup. Ownership has an influence. And while that influence may not be exerted when making a day three draft pick (they'd rather be at a horse race), they are weighing in on the players that help sell tickets, Toyotas, and Dunkin Donuts.
The team's Director of Player Personnel is the grandson of Wellington Mara, and has sons named Tim and Wellington. Let's not kid ourselves about what this is.
preaching to the choir... I wanted to trade him in October 2022 when the Giants were 6-2. But I understood why that would have been an almost impossible sell. I wanted to trade him last year at Halloween.
BTW, the problem with Mara is this... he wants to treat SB with "class" and "dignity" because "we owe it to him."
Meanwhile, Barkley is circling those two games against the Giants and can't wait to embarrass the franchise.
Mara's world only exists in his own mind.
I don't think the show has changed my view on either.
Always figured they were in-charge as a GM & HC should be, but they have to deal with certain morons/voices in the building.
However, until they solve for QB and rectify the mistake they made with Daniel Jones, they won't get my approval. Until that happens they are just a franchise going through the motions each season.
It's been pretty bland. Like the fact that they saw value to the team in Barkley and would have taken him back but only cost provided and wasn't a priority where they were going to overpay for him should not shock anyone. Mara expresses his views on a high profile player but we know that JS goes in a different direction should not be shocking at all. Every owner is going to have an opinion and ask questions. The fact that we know JS made the call is exactly how this is supposed to work. Healthy discussion as you work through decision making is a good thing. I expect a lot of people to read into it as they want. But truth is, there's not much to see here. We're seeing bits and pieces of what is, by necessity, a long process.
I'd say I'm an A, but I was confident in Daboll/Schoen before the show.
Also, I do take the show with a grain a salt especially since we know Daboll played copyrighted music to not be recorded (which I think is hilarious).
I think a better question is who has changed their mind significantly about Daboll/Schoen either positively or negatively from watching Hard Knocks so far?
RE: I don't see how anyone could have any strong feelings on this
It's been pretty bland. Like the fact that they saw value to the team in Barkley and would have taken him back but only cost provided and wasn't a priority where they were going to overpay for him should not shock anyone. Mara expresses his views on a high profile player but we know that JS goes in a different direction should not be shocking at all. Every owner is going to have an opinion and ask questions. The fact that we know JS made the call is exactly how this is supposed to work. Healthy discussion as you work through decision making is a good thing. I expect a lot of people to read into it as they want. But truth is, there's not much to see here. We're seeing bits and pieces of what is, by necessity, a long process.
I think it is funny people say they are higher on Daboll from watching. He was barely in the first episode and spent a lot of the second episode bullsh*** about his current 40 time.
I wonder if those who are more negative/meh on Schoen are just because you are seeing more of him warts and all.
Daboll has barely been in the series so far. It's mostly been about Schoen.
In fact, someone here mentioned that Daboll has deliberately obscured his moments with licensed music in the background so it couldn't be used in the show. He's essentially dictated, successfully I'd say, how he is portrayed in HK.
Schoen on the other hand has, either willingly or not, given us a better picture of how he is approaching his philosophy. He was firm on SB from the beginning which flew in the face of ownership and the nepotism gang. He is allowing Jones to sink or swim based on Daboll's vision for this offense.
IMV, Schoen and Daboll are both coming out of this positively. But I trust Schoen more than Daboll by a hair or two. If this team sucks again, I'm keeping Schoen over Daboll for his ability to politic ownership...alone.
Actually seeing Mara weigh in on personnel matters.
Beyond that, there was so much meat in last night's show. I highlighted a bunch of the stuff that stood out to me in the pinned thread (too many to list again here).
I think it is funny people say they are higher on Daboll from watching. He was barely in the first episode and spent a lot of the second episode bullsh*** about his current 40 time.
I wonder if those who are more negative/meh on Schoen are just because you are seeing more of him warts and all.
No. It was his interaction with the Schoen and then his interaction with the players during the interviews.
I totally agree that Schoen should have tried to move
Daboll has barely been in the series so far. It's mostly been about Schoen.
In fact, someone here mentioned that Daboll has deliberately obscured his moments with licensed music in the background so it couldn't be used in the show. He's essentially dictated, successfully I'd say, how he is portrayed in HK.
Schoen on the other hand has, either willingly or not, given us a better picture of how he is approaching his philosophy. He was firm on SB from the beginning which flew in the face of ownership and the nepotism gang. He is allowing Jones to sink or swim based on Daboll's vision for this offense.
IMV, Schoen and Daboll are both coming out of this positively. But I trust Schoen more than Daboll by a hair or two. If this team sucks again, I'm keeping Schoen over Daboll for his ability to politic ownership...alone.
When I think of episode 1, I think of Schoen. When I think of episode 2, I think of Daboll. I thought Daboll was the star of episode 2.
RE: I totally agree that Schoen should have tried to move
i dont completely disagree. Daboll had the stage in key parts. But it's mostly propaganda with him, eg: Fast talking interview of prospects, 40 time and chicken wings.
i dont completely disagree. Daboll had the stage in key parts. But it's mostly propaganda with him, eg: Fast talking interview of prospects, 40 time and chicken wings.
More substance with every JS moment.
The 40-yard dash stuff was filler. But his comments about Nabers to Schoen was an eye-opener. And his chalkboard stuff was gold. We also saw how he really interacts with players.
Press conference Daboll sucks.
Behind the scenes Daboll is a different animal.
RE: RE: I totally agree that Schoen should have tried to move
SB at the deadline, but do we know he didn’t try? Maybe the offers weren’t strong, and he felt the comp picks would be just as good?
Of course, there is always that possibility that ownership nixed any potential deals.
I may be wrong but I don't believe the Giants will be seeing any comp picks as a result of Barkley leaving.
The last I saw is we will get a pick, and without Barkley leaving, we don't.
Gotcha. I'd assumed the OL signings (and possibly the Singletary signing) might negate the Barkley departure as far as the compensatory formula is concerned.
it keeps changing. One day we're getting a decent pick, the next no. I hate the way this system works. No transparency. I wish they would just get rid of it.
Or it could be the fact that the offense was pathetic
It's easy for fans to say sure trade away your best offensive weapon, strong offer or not.
The reality is that football teams are competitive people. An offensive coach in a struggling season that was ambushed by injuries is not going to be like, sure trade him away for whatever we can get, who cares if we have no other threats on offense to make things even harder on us than we already are. We'll just suck even worse.
People think like this is fantasy football. But the truth is, there are dozens of players with value who hit the FA market every year. You could make the same arguement for anyone of them -why didn't the team just trade them away, at leas the teams who aren't winning a SB? It is not as easy as the couch GMs seem to think.
He obviously did not want to invest in the RB position and didn't. If we had a team that could compete for the SB and we had a well-functioning offensive line (NYG 0-2 there) SB would make sense.
Schoen clearly wants to find out if Jones can do the heavy lifting, what better way to do than without the Saquon crutch – many stil attribute the team's 2022 success to Saquon rather than Jones. After this year he should know how to proceed at QB.
Though it hasn't really been played up, he did Saquon a huge favor by letting him test free agency. SB may have some bad blood, but he should be thankful instead.
What I get from the Schoen stuff overall is that he respects the positional value that currently works in the NFL.
It's been pretty bland. Like the fact that they saw value to the team in Barkley and would have taken him back but only cost provided and wasn't a priority where they were going to overpay for him should not shock anyone. Mara expresses his views on a high profile player but we know that JS goes in a different direction should not be shocking at all. Every owner is going to have an opinion and ask questions. The fact that we know JS made the call is exactly how this is supposed to work. Healthy discussion as you work through decision making is a good thing. I expect a lot of people to read into it as they want. But truth is, there's not much to see here. We're seeing bits and pieces of what is, by necessity, a long process.
Agree, the team has certainly been improved by JS. Has he made mistakes? Show me the GM or anyone in the decision-making business who hasn't. I'll take JS as long as he keeps improving the team. IMO mistakes are part of the job.
C - Hits and misses, but overall positive towards the two.
Next week will be telling: were they really only off 1 million bucks from the Eagles offer? That is still an extreme mismanagement to a roster in 2024. If that's the case, feel the Eagles got them out of their own way.
It's easy for fans to say sure trade away your best offensive weapon, strong offer or not.
The reality is that football teams are competitive people. An offensive coach in a struggling season that was ambushed by injuries is not going to be like, sure trade him away for whatever we can get, who cares if we have no other threats on offense to make things even harder on us than we already are. We'll just suck even worse.
People think like this is fantasy football. But the truth is, there are dozens of players with value who hit the FA market every year. You could make the same arguement for anyone of them -why didn't the team just trade them away, at leas the teams who aren't winning a SB? It is not as easy as the couch GMs seem to think.
It isn't fantasy football. It's a business with many layers of people acting in, at times, opposing interests.
That's why there has to be a strong figure at the top that can think strategically and see the big picture. And that figure, invariably, is ownership. He/She/They set the course and provide the strategic long term vision of the organization.
The strategy of Giants' ownership appears to be to overvalue and make optimistic appraisals of your own players and staff while continuing to populate the front office with family members.
NYGfaninCLT
@clt_ny
I find the *body language*/comfort level Schoen has with those he hired (Brown, Hickey, Rossetti) and those he didn’t (McDonnell, Abrams, Triggs, Tisch) fascinating.
i dont completely disagree. Daboll had the stage in key parts. But it's mostly propaganda with him, eg: Fast talking interview of prospects, 40 time and chicken wings.
More substance with every JS moment.
The 40-yard dash stuff was filler. But his comments about Nabers to Schoen was an eye-opener. And his chalkboard stuff was gold. We also saw how he really interacts with players.
Press conference Daboll sucks.
Behind the scenes Daboll is a different animal.
Agreed, Daboll's QB questioning was off the charts, really impressive. He knows what he wants in a QB.
It is being completely out of touch. Saquon was a scorned human being and "played the good soldier" last year only to get out of East Rutherford asap. The naïveté of both owner and GM is epic here! Saquon should have been traded last October. Expecting him to re-sign with the Giants was always folly. And now we know that what he got from Philadelphia was essentially the same as what the Giants offered. Frankly in hindsight, Schoen should have tagged him again this year and attempted to trade him. At least get something of value for God's sake!
Mara was quoted as refusing to trade Barkley. Not sure what Schoen can do in that situation.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
I'm not. I'd take it more personally if Shockey Collins or Sehorn jumped ship to Philly. That'd be weird. This 2012-present era of Giants football isn't exactly something to be sentimental about.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
We got a HOF year out of Barkley as a rookie. We got a Pro Bowl year out of him in 2022. Everything else wasn't notable.
My concern about Schoen is that he seems more like a doer
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
We got a HOF year out of Barkley as a rookie. We got a Pro Bowl year out of him in 2022. Everything else wasn't notable.
ok so lets call that a 1 in 3 chance next year is notable.
do you expect a notable season out of singletary?
RE: My concern about Schoen is that he seems more like a doer
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I expect that the Giants will finally run the offense that Daboll and Kafka really wanted to run from day one... for better or worse, this is a passing team now.
I don't mean it as an insult, but your POV seems to be in line with Mara... "we can't get rid of Barkley because we'll get worse at the position."
It's not about the position. It's about the big picture, strategic view of what you want the team to be. Barkley isn't the player fans think he was. You can blame the OL, QB, or injuries, but he wasn't. And he's clearly not getting faster or more explosive.
He'll have a big year for Philly, but it's a different situation.
The 2018 Giants were 16th in the NFL in scoring and went 5-11. The ball went Barkley's way 382 times (carries + targets) for 2028 yards and 15 TDs.
I give the guy credit for being tough enough to handle a ridiculous workload in a stupidly run offense, but other than that I'd hope the Giants would have gotten more out of 382 plays.
Barkley was not, and never was, a great player for the Giants.
The guys clearly an offensive genius- if he can learn the leadership part of being a coach he’ll do great.
Schoen- weirdly I feel worse. It’s not that his moves look worse it’s just the body language. He’s more … goofy? … than I thought he’d be. This is admittedly non scientific and perhaps doesn’t mean anything but the initial Blink-like impression I get of him is that he’s a lot less serious and formidable than I thought he’d be
I agree with this and know exactly what you mean.
Schoen comes across like a goober. I thought he was a bit more straight laced and conservative than this shows him to be.
It doesn't mean that he can't do his job effectively but the best way that I can describe it is I imagine at the GM meetings that he is at the herb table.
RE: RE: My concern about Schoen is that he seems more like a doer
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I agree with both posts. Although I'll also say there is some learning on the job which happens as well. Schoen did have a unique situation inheriting a player like Barkley who ownership clearly loves. Couple that with the playoff win in 2022 and the general feeling around the fan base was they just woke up from a coma.
We were told we were getting the next LaDanian Tomlinson with more HR ability--which is the only way it would justify the #2 overall pick--and he didn't even come close. It was a failed pick. Knowing now that Gettleman refused to entertain offers to slide down a few picks, and possibly still take Barkley, it was an abomination.
He'll probably have a few excellent years in Philly. Maybe he'll win a SB. He certainly was never going to do that here, because we have too many other holes to pay a RB $13 mm a year, as Schoen adroitly recognized.
I always felt Schoen did not believe in paying running backs and, through his first two years, leveled out to the audience how he values certain positions.
I know he wanted a corner but getting a big time DE was a tremendous addition. Baby steps. Very interesting to see what they have planned at QB post-2024.
indifferent at the moment as far as leading the team, but I view more positively as people.
And Barkley off of the Giants is best for both parties, it's a band-aid that needed to be ripped off. I also wonder if Schoen wanted to trade Barkley mid-season and Mara blocked it, and based off of the first two episodes and Mara's previous comments on trading him that is likely what happened. Mara clearly thinks with his heart and not with his head, a trait his father had as well. Admirable as human being, but not for something as cut-throat as the NFL.
We kind of already knew this, but IMO Hard Knocks portrays the front office as having multiple contingency plans in place (e.g., Wilkins v Burns v McKinney, looking at trading for #3 versus WR at 6). They don't seem to really tunnel vision in on one plan.
I expect that the Giants will finally run the offense that Daboll and Kafka really wanted to run from day one... for better or worse, this is a passing team now.
I don't mean it as an insult, but your POV seems to be in line with Mara... "we can't get rid of Barkley because we'll get worse at the position."
It's not about the position. It's about the big picture, strategic view of what you want the team to be. Barkley isn't the player fans think he was. You can blame the OL, QB, or injuries, but he wasn't. And he's clearly not getting faster or more explosive.
He'll have a big year for Philly, but it's a different situation.
im ok with the big picture of going to more of a passing team, but better players are better players. addition by subtraction is uncommon. barkley looked like a pretty good receiver in this offense down the stretch in 2022 and in the 1 good offensive half of 2023.
i do think there is something to daboll wanting to force the change though and perhaps rip the bandaid off.
The 2018 Giants were 16th in the NFL in scoring and went 5-11. The ball went Barkley's way 382 times (carries + targets) for 2028 yards and 15 TDs.
I give the guy credit for being tough enough to handle a ridiculous workload in a stupidly run offense, but other than that I'd hope the Giants would have gotten more out of 382 plays.
Barkley was not, and never was, a great player for the Giants.
in 2018 he either tied or broke randy moss' record for long td's as a rookie (think it was like 50 or 60 yards, i forget which).
that team sucked because if memory serves bettchers defense gave up the most points in nyg history. cant remember if that was 2018 or 2019. either way it was an incompetent coaching staff that was pretty quickly out of the nfl altogether.
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I agree with both posts. Although I'll also say there is some learning on the job which happens as well. Schoen did have a unique situation inheriting a player like Barkley who ownership clearly loves. Couple that with the playoff win in 2022 and the general feeling around the fan base was they just woke up from a coma.
I hope Schoen ultimately grows into a strategist.
agreed, and ive said this in other threads but i dont think reactive is the worst criticism. it's a very year to year league so some amount of letting things play out is likely good. adoree jackson for example had 2 very different years.
what troubles me with schoen is how quickly his strategy shifts. he was trying to extend love in nov, 4 months later he lets him walk despite the contract being very reasonable. he spent 8 months trying to extend barkley only to not bridge the gap at finish line, not trade him, and then never put another offer on the table.
those are guys in the building with C's, so are we choosing poor leaders or misevaluating them?
I like Daboll more. He's not a phony like Judge. And I feel more convinced that Daboll was THE reason we made the playoffs in 2022.
If there is a hot seat, Schoen's ass should be on it.
Schoen should be on the hot seat...after two seasons...
Because why? Because Daboll 'crushed' it with a 4th seed schedule and Dave Gettleman's roster?
In your world, how long exactly does it take to create a superbowl roster when two teams in your division are putting up to 10 years of future salary on the field in the given year...and still failing to obtain a superbowl?
Schoen should be on the hot seat...after two seasons...
Because why? Because Daboll 'crushed' it with a 4th seed schedule and Dave Gettleman's roster?
In your world, how long exactly does it take to create a superbowl roster when two teams in your division are putting up to 10 years of future salary on the field in the given year...and still failing to obtain a superbowl?
Well, isn't a fact that the team Daboll coached in 2022 was predominantly Gettleman's players, especially at the key positions?
Remind me. Outside of Okreke, how may high level productive players has Schoen added thus far?
I don't want to give the impression that I think Daboll is the next Andy Reid (not yet, anyway), but it's my opinion that he's been demonstrably better at his job than Schoen so far.
It's very possible I'm being too hard on Schoen. But this Jones re-re-commitment is a major albatross. He'd better hope Daboll can be his talisman again and make Jones work.
Saquon looked Canton bound after his rookie season. But injuries, wear/tear, & a bad line sapped him of that potential. Oh well. Life goes on. & it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he lights it up this fall behind that Eagles OL.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
But I expect us to move on after 2024 with Jones if he doesn't get it done. Schoen has fully telegraph this on hard knocks
But how does Schoen define “getting it done?” Jones plays we in the first 3 games and then injuries start hitting, the line falls apart and the offense stalls, and then Jones goes down with an injury in week 6.
Did he get it done? If the goal is playoffs, does missing the playoffs alone make us move on?
The problem the last few years with Jones is “getting it done” has become “not his fault it didn’t get done, so he stays.”
RE: RE: My concern about Schoen is that he seems more like a doer
than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
Eric, I agree with that summary. I think he did the same thing with Jones as with Barkley. He declined the 5th year option in 2022 based on 2021. Based on 2022, he reversed course in 2023 and signed Jones to an extension.
I would feel better about Schoen if I felt there was a long term strategic plan he was working toward as opposed to plugging holes based on what he saw last year.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
is it acceptable to see it as improving the odds of winning by having a more productive player vs less productive player? barkley has the highest ypg of any rb in team history and we all know what kind of supporting cast/OL he's done that behind his entire career.
ascribing blame for losing to the teams best player seems backwards to me. like, maybe the dozens of teammates he's played with who have not gotten valued at the top of their positions or quickly departed the nfl in general were the bigger problem?
did he not obviously help them win 2022? were they not 6-8 with him in 23, 0-3 without him? but hey, through like 5 different regimes they havent found a good rb other than him since bradshaw in 2008 so they are probably due.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
I root for the laundry.
Me too. I like certain players and would hate to see them leave (Dexter Lawrence) but that is because they are good players and easy to root for. If they traded Lawrence and brought in Mahomes, I would really not think about Lawrence again. I just want this team to be a consistent winner.
I don't want to give the impression that I think Daboll is the next Andy Reid (not yet, anyway), but it's my opinion that he's been demonstrably better at his job than Schoen so far.
It's very possible I'm being too hard on Schoen. But this Jones re-re-commitment is a major albatross. He'd better hope Daboll can be his talisman again and make Jones work.
Agreed with what you said. And I like them both. We need them to stay long term to see this through. Jones days were done if they could get Maye, and still are despite Maye. Jones is barely Schoen/Dabolls baby.
I believe we can win in spite of Jones. Many here do not. Regardless of the winning or lack there of…Jones is done here.
lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
I'm too old for that. There was a time in my youth where I loved guys like Simms. But as SanFran said, I want the team to win. Pure tribalism.
I'm sentimental for certain dudes...I would have vomited seeing Eli in a Jags uni for example. It sucked seeing Tuck as a Raider. I'm glad Strahan spent his entire career here.
But for the most part, I'm like, 'Whatever.'
does it not go w/o saying that if the team wins nobody will care how?
offseason hard knocks more than any other is more about the best choices to assembling a winner than anything else. the goal is winning. i can promise you the eagles goal in signing barkley was to win more games with him and their recent track record getting those decisions right is better than all but a few teams.
I think a large majority of posters agree with you, but there's a somewhat sizable minority who really root for guys & lament when they're no longer on the team.
I just want to fucking win. I really don't care for anyone personally on this roster. I don't mean to sound crass, but I don't know them/don't wish them ill or anything...but I want to win. I'm sick of being a bottom feeder.
I think a large majority of posters agree with you, but there's a somewhat sizable minority who really root for guys & lament when they're no longer on the team.
I just want to fucking win. I really don't care for anyone personally on this roster. I don't mean to sound crass, but I don't know them/don't wish them ill or anything...but I want to win. I'm sick of being a bottom feeder.
i agree with that, i just see at least a half dozen wins they dont have in the last 2 years without barkley. maybe more. TEN 2 pt conversion, GB catch and run, HOU 30+ carries, WSH closed out the game, MIN 2 long tds, AZ that 3rd down catch/td, etc. i dont think singletary has ever been a difference maker in that way, which is i think what rossetti was articulating re saquon. rossetti has only been there for 2 years so i dont think he's being sentimental, i think he was looking at the market and correctly determined barkley for all his warts was still the best available.
there is a cost difference but both players have the same cap #s this year. i think anyone confident the nyg got something right the eagles got wrong is probably setting themselves up for disappointment (though id love to be wrong).
I don't want to give the impression that I think Daboll is the next Andy Reid (not yet, anyway), but it's my opinion that he's been demonstrably better at his job than Schoen so far.
It's very possible I'm being too hard on Schoen. But this Jones re-re-commitment is a major albatross. He'd better hope Daboll can be his talisman again and make Jones work.
Agreed with what you said. And I like them both. We need them to stay long term to see this through. Jones days were done if they could get Maye, and still are despite Maye. Jones is barely Schoen/Dabolls baby.
I believe we can win in spite of Jones. Many here do not. Regardless of the winning or lack there of…Jones is done here.
You believe BD is better at his job than JS basically because of JS commitment to DJ. Do you think JS support of DJ is without BD agreement. I DON'T THINK SO.
You believe BD is better at his job than JS basically because of JS commitment to DJ. Do you think JS support of DJ is without BD agreement. I DON'T THINK SO.
Whether you like or not, the 2022 roster was overwhelming Gettleman's players. And Daboll coached it. What great adds did Schoen make to that roster? James? Hodgins?
I would not have paid the money the Eagles did. You can figure he will miss a number of games due to injur - at least 5 or 6.. Also he isn’t the same RB that he was. I am thinking they will regret that contract.
Did anyone else forget Kevin Abrams is still with the team?
Reminds me of Steve Mills with the Knicks. An executive who keeps hanging around through regimes with vague duties and is considered for positions he's not qualified for.
You believe BD is better at his job than JS basically because of JS commitment to DJ. Do you think JS support of DJ is without BD agreement. I DON'T THINK SO.
Whether you like or not, the 2022 roster was overwhelming Gettleman's players. And Daboll coached it. What great adds did Schoen make to that roster? James? Hodgins?
Really don't see the point. BD had no choice but to coach the roster he was given from a prior regime. JS and BD are a new team working in tandem. It seems to me BD has input into JS decisions. I don't think JS would be committed to DJ if Daboll had opposite feelings.
yet but Ive seen some clips on X. Clearly Daboll knows the offensive side of the ball and needs to adjust, like all coordinators to running the big show. I feel good about his progression.
I can't say the same about Schoen. IMO, he underestimated the RB free agent market and asked a surprising question about Josh Jacobs in episode 1. I'd like my GM to know what the top players at each position have accomplished in recently. To ask if Jacobs lead the league in rushing was shocking to hear. So for me, the jury is still out on Schoen
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
Schoen- weirdly I feel worse. It’s not that his moves look worse it’s just the body language. He’s more … goofy? … than I thought he’d be. This is admittedly non scientific and perhaps doesn’t mean anything but the initial Blink-like impression I get of him is that he’s a lot less serious and formidable than I thought he’d be
I feel better about Schoen. He seems inexperienced but his path to the roll is positive. He didn't skip any jobs on his way to being a GM and he has grown into each roll.
It's clear ownership voices their opinions. I hope Schoen develops a method for ignoring Mara.
Schoen always struck me as a very confident guy who knows what he wants. As he spends more and more time on the job, it is clear he is the GUY and he knows he is the GUY. Even seeing the teaser with Mara in Schoen's office; Joe is the alpha.
I was concerned about Schoen going in, I am even more concerned now and am not at all convinced that he is the right guy for this job going forward. That phone call with Saquon shows a complete ignorance for how badly he handled DJ and SB last year. To expect Saquon to do him a solid after quibbling over peanuts on a contract last year while simultaneously awarding DJ an undeserved and massive overpayment, four times more than what SB was asking for, reveals a naïveté far worse than I would have expected from a seasoned executive. Schoen treated SB like dog shit last year. So he had to know there would be no future here for Saquon if he wasn't prepared to tag him again. The smart move therefore was to trade him at the deadline and get something of value and at least try to direct him to the AFC in the future.
I like Mara as a person and believe he genuinely means well, but I have felt for years that he is overwhelmingly out of touch with what is needed to win championships in today's NFL. His remark in the coming attractions at the end of the episode that "...I will lose sleep if we lose Saquon" is about as out of touch as anything I could have ever expected to hear from an owner of an NFL franchise. Quite the opposite is in order, John. You need to wake up and open your eyes! You lost SB last year when you anointed DJ as the savior and treated Saquon like crap!
Same old shit, they'll be hunting for their first win in early November.
I was concerned about Schoen going in, I am even more concerned now and am not at all convinced that he is the right guy for this job going forward. That phone call with Saquon shows a complete ignorance for how badly he handled DJ and SB last year. To expect Saquon to do him a solid after quibbling over peanuts on a contract last year while simultaneously awarding DJ an undeserved and massive overpayment, four times more than what SB was asking for, reveals a naïveté far worse than I would have expected from a seasoned executive. Schoen treated SB like dog shit last year. So he had to know there would be no future here for Saquon if he wasn't prepared to tag him again. The smart move therefore was to trade him at the deadline and get something of value and at least try to direct him to the AFC in the future.
I like Mara as a person and believe he genuinely means well, but I have felt for years that he is overwhelmingly out of touch with what is needed to win championships in today's NFL. His remark in the coming attractions at the end of the episode that "...I will lose sleep if we lose Saquon" is about as out of touch as anything I could have ever expected to hear from an owner of an NFL franchise. Quite the opposite is in order, John. You need to wake up and open your eyes! You lost SB last year when you anointed DJ as the savior and treated Saquon like crap!
Didn't the Giants offer Saquon $12-13 million per season? What did the Eagles give him? I'm not seeing the disrespect here.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
Agreed about Daboll (although I’ve thought he was the real deal early on), and I too have mixed feelings about Schoen, although now more positive than negative. The ownership thing I’m not in total agreement about. My perception is that Schoen is clearly calling the shots. Ownership has input, but they should.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
i agree with your comments re daboll(better)/schoen(meh) which nets me to C neutral, but i dont think there is a single ownership group in any sport not involved in that same way. and the majority are much more involved/worse.
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I feel much better about Daboll.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
i agree with your comments re daboll(better)/schoen(meh) which nets me to C neutral, but i dont think there is a single ownership group in any sport not involved in that same way. and the majority are much more involved/worse.
But our owner is George Costanza.
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In comment 16550950 Eric from BBI said:
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I feel much better about Daboll.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
i agree with your comments re daboll(better)/schoen(meh) which nets me to C neutral, but i dont think there is a single ownership group in any sport not involved in that same way. and the majority are much more involved/worse.
But our owner is George Costanza.
he's more of a wet noodle than costanza. and a wet noodle isnt the worst thing in an owner, it's a bigger problem if you have a stronger personality like tepper who thinks he knows everything. remember a few years ago when BBI was clamoring for a forward thinking owner like that?
if mara gets the right leadership in place the team will succeed. getting the right leadership has been the problem.
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I liked Daboll going in, and I like him even more now. Smart, authentic, experienced, savvy, etc. He has the potential to be a legendary head coach.
I was concerned about Schoen going in, I am even more concerned now and am not at all convinced that he is the right guy for this job going forward. That phone call with Saquon shows a complete ignorance for how badly he handled DJ and SB last year. To expect Saquon to do him a solid after quibbling over peanuts on a contract last year while simultaneously awarding DJ an undeserved and massive overpayment, four times more than what SB was asking for, reveals a naïveté far worse than I would have expected from a seasoned executive. Schoen treated SB like dog shit last year. So he had to know there would be no future here for Saquon if he wasn't prepared to tag him again. The smart move therefore was to trade him at the deadline and get something of value and at least try to direct him to the AFC in the future.
I like Mara as a person and believe he genuinely means well, but I have felt for years that he is overwhelmingly out of touch with what is needed to win championships in today's NFL. His remark in the coming attractions at the end of the episode that "...I will lose sleep if we lose Saquon" is about as out of touch as anything I could have ever expected to hear from an owner of an NFL franchise. Quite the opposite is in order, John. You need to wake up and open your eyes! You lost SB last year when you anointed DJ as the savior and treated Saquon like crap!
Didn't the Giants offer Saquon $12-13 million per season? What did the Eagles give him? I'm not seeing the disrespect here.
My understanding was that they were a couple million dollars apart in terms of guarantees at the March 2023 deadline. And that was the reason they had to franchise him and pay DJ the enormous contract. And then later in the year, they were still a couple million dollars apart on a multi-year contract, so Saquon signed the franchise tender prior to training camp rather than holding out. In his mind, he was "doing the Giants a solid" on the expectation that the contract he was looking for, essentially guaranteeing the dollars of two franchise tags, which is what the Eagles accepted, would be coming in 2024. So in his mind, he was treated like crap. And Mara/Schoen should have known that and traded him at the deadline knowing they would not budge in their position.
100%, some who continue to say Mara dictates personal decisions don't really know. I don't think so. I believe the new regime is in charge. Of course, the boss gives his opinions.
Realize, that Mara is an issue, but Schoen seems to have final word.
She has been impressed by Dabol and Brown though.
George at least had the self-awareness to realize his instincts were wrong.
I think Barkley is taking too much heat about the phone call as he probably thought that Schoen was franchise tagging him.
I think Schoen is excited to see this team molded in his vision sans Barkley, but his downfall is going to be Evan Neal and Daniel Jones.
Lol what a fucking surprise...
right and my point is so long as they continue to be wet noodles, their instincts dont matter nearly as much as the instincts of the people they hire.
that's not the case with the majority of owners who dont give their people free hand.
we are in agreement re their instincts when it comes to the decisions we know they make (hiring/firing). they wanted to hire brian flores as he was drafting a law suit against them and probably would have if joe schoen didnt have the authority to go with his guy.
You are right. Schoen appears to have essentially given Saquon exactly what he wanted and then Saquon spit in his face and took the Eagles deal. So the question is why? My guess is, in Saquon's mind, the simultaneous massive overpayment to DJ with the "nickel and diming" negotiation last year was an act of complete disrespect. He no doubt felt that he was the guy who was truly most responsible for the success in 2022, not DJ. And so the only solution last year was to franchise DJ and either give Saquon what he wanted or let him test the waters in free agency. The fact that he turned down what he wanted in March 2024 leads me to believe that Saquon held his nose last summer and signed the franchise tender, intending to never play another down for this team after the 2023 season.
I was concerned about Schoen going in, I am even more concerned now and am not at all convinced that he is the right guy for this job going forward. That phone call with Saquon shows a complete ignorance for how badly he handled DJ and SB last year. To expect Saquon to do him a solid after quibbling over peanuts on a contract last year while simultaneously awarding DJ an undeserved and massive overpayment, four times more than what SB was asking for, reveals a naïveté far worse than I would have expected from a seasoned executive. Schoen treated SB like dog shit last year. So he had to know there would be no future here for Saquon if he wasn't prepared to tag him again. The smart move therefore was to trade him at the deadline and get something of value and at least try to direct him to the AFC in the future.
I like Mara as a person and believe he genuinely means well, but I have felt for years that he is overwhelmingly out of touch with what is needed to win championships in today's NFL. His remark in the coming attractions at the end of the episode that "...I will lose sleep if we lose Saquon" is about as out of touch as anything I could have ever expected to hear from an owner of an NFL franchise. Quite the opposite is in order, John. You need to wake up and open your eyes! You lost SB last year when you anointed DJ as the savior and treated Saquon like crap!
Serious question, but what is so bad about an owner saying he'd lose sleep over losing Saquan? I get that it can be perceived as exerting pressure on Schoen to resign him maybe, but other than that, what's the problem?
1st year was great.
2nd year was a disaster.
3rd year TBD....but again, I like what they have done. The NFL is hard.
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see the summary I just posted in the pinned thread a about the contract offer.
You are right. Schoen appears to have essentially given Saquon exactly what he wanted and then Saquon spit in his face and took the Eagles deal. So the question is why? My guess is, in Saquon's mind, the simultaneous massive overpayment to DJ with the "nickel and diming" negotiation last year was an act of complete disrespect. He no doubt felt that he was the guy who was truly most responsible for the success in 2022, not DJ. And so the only solution last year was to franchise DJ and either give Saquon what he wanted or let him test the waters in free agency. The fact that he turned down what he wanted in March 2024 leads me to believe that Saquon held his nose last summer and signed the franchise tender, intending to never play another down for this team after the 2023 season.
I have no doubt SB felt "disrespected", but boo hoo. He was offered a fair deal and got bad advice from Roc Nation. He is lucky he didn't tear his ACL again last year.
I also have no doubt that players are miffed at what Jones got.
My issues with Schoen and Barkley are not the contract offers, but the reluctance to deal him (unless ownership vetoed that). Before that, they should have let him leave last year and franchised Jones.
My spidey sense tells me ownership may have hampered any thoughts of that. Remember what the perception of ownership must have been in March 2023 (not March 2024).
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I liked Daboll going in, and I like him even more now. Smart, authentic, experienced, savvy, etc. He has the potential to be a legendary head coach.
I was concerned about Schoen going in, I am even more concerned now and am not at all convinced that he is the right guy for this job going forward. That phone call with Saquon shows a complete ignorance for how badly he handled DJ and SB last year. To expect Saquon to do him a solid after quibbling over peanuts on a contract last year while simultaneously awarding DJ an undeserved and massive overpayment, four times more than what SB was asking for, reveals a naïveté far worse than I would have expected from a seasoned executive. Schoen treated SB like dog shit last year. So he had to know there would be no future here for Saquon if he wasn't prepared to tag him again. The smart move therefore was to trade him at the deadline and get something of value and at least try to direct him to the AFC in the future.
I like Mara as a person and believe he genuinely means well, but I have felt for years that he is overwhelmingly out of touch with what is needed to win championships in today's NFL. His remark in the coming attractions at the end of the episode that "...I will lose sleep if we lose Saquon" is about as out of touch as anything I could have ever expected to hear from an owner of an NFL franchise. Quite the opposite is in order, John. You need to wake up and open your eyes! You lost SB last year when you anointed DJ as the savior and treated Saquon like crap!
Serious question, but what is so bad about an owner saying he'd lose sleep over losing Saquan? I get that it can be perceived as exerting pressure on Schoen to resign him maybe, but other than that, what's the problem?
It is being completely out of touch. Saquon was a scorned human being and "played the good soldier" last year only to get out of East Rutherford asap. The naïveté of both owner and GM is epic here! Saquon should have been traded last October. Expecting him to re-sign with the Giants was always folly. And now we know that what he got from Philadelphia was essentially the same as what the Giants offered. Frankly in hindsight, Schoen should have tagged him again this year and attempted to trade him. At least get something of value for God's sake!
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In comment 16551042 Eric from BBI said:
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see the summary I just posted in the pinned thread a about the contract offer.
You are right. Schoen appears to have essentially given Saquon exactly what he wanted and then Saquon spit in his face and took the Eagles deal. So the question is why? My guess is, in Saquon's mind, the simultaneous massive overpayment to DJ with the "nickel and diming" negotiation last year was an act of complete disrespect. He no doubt felt that he was the guy who was truly most responsible for the success in 2022, not DJ. And so the only solution last year was to franchise DJ and either give Saquon what he wanted or let him test the waters in free agency. The fact that he turned down what he wanted in March 2024 leads me to believe that Saquon held his nose last summer and signed the franchise tender, intending to never play another down for this team after the 2023 season.
I have no doubt SB felt "disrespected", but boo hoo. He was offered a fair deal and got bad advice from Roc Nation. He is lucky he didn't tear his ACL again last year.
I also have no doubt that players are miffed at what Jones got.
My issues with Schoen and Barkley are not the contract offers, but the reluctance to deal him (unless ownership vetoed that). Before that, they should have let him leave last year and franchised Jones.
My spidey sense tells me ownership may have hampered any thoughts of that. Remember what the perception of ownership must have been in March 2023 (not March 2024).
Then Schoen should have traded him in October or tagged him again this year and at least tried to trade him. He obviously forgot the old adage - Hell hath no fury like a scorned running back!
My spidey sense tells me ownership may have hampered any thoughts of that. Remember what the perception of ownership must have been in March 2023 (not March 2024).
Yup. Ownership has an influence. And while that influence may not be exerted when making a day three draft pick (they'd rather be at a horse race), they are weighing in on the players that help sell tickets, Toyotas, and Dunkin Donuts.
The team's Director of Player Personnel is the grandson of Wellington Mara, and has sons named Tim and Wellington. Let's not kid ourselves about what this is.
BTW, the problem with Mara is this... he wants to treat SB with "class" and "dignity" because "we owe it to him."
Meanwhile, Barkley is circling those two games against the Giants and can't wait to embarrass the franchise.
Mara's world only exists in his own mind.
However, until they solve for QB and rectify the mistake they made with Daniel Jones, they won't get my approval. Until that happens they are just a franchise going through the motions each season.
Also, I do take the show with a grain a salt especially since we know Daboll played copyrighted music to not be recorded (which I think is hilarious).
I think a better question is who has changed their mind significantly about Daboll/Schoen either positively or negatively from watching Hard Knocks so far?
I wouldn't say episode 2 was "bland."
I wonder if those who are more negative/meh on Schoen are just because you are seeing more of him warts and all.
In fact, someone here mentioned that Daboll has deliberately obscured his moments with licensed music in the background so it couldn't be used in the show. He's essentially dictated, successfully I'd say, how he is portrayed in HK.
Schoen on the other hand has, either willingly or not, given us a better picture of how he is approaching his philosophy. He was firm on SB from the beginning which flew in the face of ownership and the nepotism gang. He is allowing Jones to sink or swim based on Daboll's vision for this offense.
IMV, Schoen and Daboll are both coming out of this positively. But I trust Schoen more than Daboll by a hair or two. If this team sucks again, I'm keeping Schoen over Daboll for his ability to politic ownership...alone.
Seeing the real Daboll.
Actually seeing Mara weigh in on personnel matters.
Beyond that, there was so much meat in last night's show. I highlighted a bunch of the stuff that stood out to me in the pinned thread (too many to list again here).
I wonder if those who are more negative/meh on Schoen are just because you are seeing more of him warts and all.
No. It was his interaction with the Schoen and then his interaction with the players during the interviews.
Of course, there is always that possibility that ownership nixed any potential deals.
In fact, someone here mentioned that Daboll has deliberately obscured his moments with licensed music in the background so it couldn't be used in the show. He's essentially dictated, successfully I'd say, how he is portrayed in HK.
Schoen on the other hand has, either willingly or not, given us a better picture of how he is approaching his philosophy. He was firm on SB from the beginning which flew in the face of ownership and the nepotism gang. He is allowing Jones to sink or swim based on Daboll's vision for this offense.
IMV, Schoen and Daboll are both coming out of this positively. But I trust Schoen more than Daboll by a hair or two. If this team sucks again, I'm keeping Schoen over Daboll for his ability to politic ownership...alone.
When I think of episode 1, I think of Schoen. When I think of episode 2, I think of Daboll. I thought Daboll was the star of episode 2.
Of course, there is always that possibility that ownership nixed any potential deals.
They said publicly last year they received offers but were not fielding offers.
Of course, there is always that possibility that ownership nixed any potential deals.
I may be wrong but I don't believe the Giants will be seeing any comp picks as a result of Barkley leaving.
More substance with every JS moment.
More substance with every JS moment.
The 40-yard dash stuff was filler. But his comments about Nabers to Schoen was an eye-opener. And his chalkboard stuff was gold. We also saw how he really interacts with players.
Press conference Daboll sucks.
Behind the scenes Daboll is a different animal.
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SB at the deadline, but do we know he didn’t try? Maybe the offers weren’t strong, and he felt the comp picks would be just as good?
Of course, there is always that possibility that ownership nixed any potential deals.
I may be wrong but I don't believe the Giants will be seeing any comp picks as a result of Barkley leaving.
The last I saw is we will get a pick, and without Barkley leaving, we don't.
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In comment 16551118 Section331 said:
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SB at the deadline, but do we know he didn’t try? Maybe the offers weren’t strong, and he felt the comp picks would be just as good?
Of course, there is always that possibility that ownership nixed any potential deals.
I may be wrong but I don't believe the Giants will be seeing any comp picks as a result of Barkley leaving.
The last I saw is we will get a pick, and without Barkley leaving, we don't.
Gotcha. I'd assumed the OL signings (and possibly the Singletary signing) might negate the Barkley departure as far as the compensatory formula is concerned.
It's easy for fans to say sure trade away your best offensive weapon, strong offer or not.
The reality is that football teams are competitive people. An offensive coach in a struggling season that was ambushed by injuries is not going to be like, sure trade him away for whatever we can get, who cares if we have no other threats on offense to make things even harder on us than we already are. We'll just suck even worse.
People think like this is fantasy football. But the truth is, there are dozens of players with value who hit the FA market every year. You could make the same arguement for anyone of them -why didn't the team just trade them away, at leas the teams who aren't winning a SB? It is not as easy as the couch GMs seem to think.
Schoen clearly wants to find out if Jones can do the heavy lifting, what better way to do than without the Saquon crutch – many stil attribute the team's 2022 success to Saquon rather than Jones. After this year he should know how to proceed at QB.
Though it hasn't really been played up, he did Saquon a huge favor by letting him test free agency. SB may have some bad blood, but he should be thankful instead.
What I get from the Schoen stuff overall is that he respects the positional value that currently works in the NFL.
a. Better
b. Worse
c. Neutral
a. (very much so)
2) How do you feel about Schoen?
a. Better
b. Worse
c. Neutral
a. (sort of for him, really like Brandon Brown)
3) How do you feel about the Mara/McDonnell?
a. Better
b. Worse
c. Neutral
b. (and I didn't think that was possible)
Agree, the team has certainly been improved by JS. Has he made mistakes? Show me the GM or anyone in the decision-making business who hasn't. I'll take JS as long as he keeps improving the team. IMO mistakes are part of the job.
Next week will be telling: were they really only off 1 million bucks from the Eagles offer? That is still an extreme mismanagement to a roster in 2024. If that's the case, feel the Eagles got them out of their own way.
It's easy for fans to say sure trade away your best offensive weapon, strong offer or not.
The reality is that football teams are competitive people. An offensive coach in a struggling season that was ambushed by injuries is not going to be like, sure trade him away for whatever we can get, who cares if we have no other threats on offense to make things even harder on us than we already are. We'll just suck even worse.
People think like this is fantasy football. But the truth is, there are dozens of players with value who hit the FA market every year. You could make the same arguement for anyone of them -why didn't the team just trade them away, at leas the teams who aren't winning a SB? It is not as easy as the couch GMs seem to think.
It isn't fantasy football. It's a business with many layers of people acting in, at times, opposing interests.
That's why there has to be a strong figure at the top that can think strategically and see the big picture. And that figure, invariably, is ownership. He/She/They set the course and provide the strategic long term vision of the organization.
The strategy of Giants' ownership appears to be to overvalue and make optimistic appraisals of your own players and staff while continuing to populate the front office with family members.
It shows you how broken the atmosphere around the team is. The guy never made a difference, ever. Even in his best season the offense still stunk.
It's not about the results. It's not about winning.
@clt_ny
I find the *body language*/comfort level Schoen has with those he hired (Brown, Hickey, Rossetti) and those he didn’t (McDonnell, Abrams, Triggs, Tisch) fascinating.
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i dont completely disagree. Daboll had the stage in key parts. But it's mostly propaganda with him, eg: Fast talking interview of prospects, 40 time and chicken wings.
More substance with every JS moment.
The 40-yard dash stuff was filler. But his comments about Nabers to Schoen was an eye-opener. And his chalkboard stuff was gold. We also saw how he really interacts with players.
Press conference Daboll sucks.
Behind the scenes Daboll is a different animal.
Agreed, Daboll's QB questioning was off the charts, really impressive. He knows what he wants in a QB.
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In comment 16550998 The Mike said:
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It is being completely out of touch. Saquon was a scorned human being and "played the good soldier" last year only to get out of East Rutherford asap. The naïveté of both owner and GM is epic here! Saquon should have been traded last October. Expecting him to re-sign with the Giants was always folly. And now we know that what he got from Philadelphia was essentially the same as what the Giants offered. Frankly in hindsight, Schoen should have tagged him again this year and attempted to trade him. At least get something of value for God's sake!
Mara was quoted as refusing to trade Barkley. Not sure what Schoen can do in that situation.
When both were hired I had more faith in Schoen than Daboll, long-term. It's pretty much flipped at this point.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
I’ve been saying this forever.. yet people will still say otherwise.
[quote] In comment 16550950 Eric from BBI said:
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I feel much better about Daboll.
I like some things about Schoen, but have some questions.
But we now know that ownership is hand's on with personnel matters. Saying otherwise is simply not true.
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
I'm not. I'd take it more personally if Shockey Collins or Sehorn jumped ship to Philly. That'd be weird. This 2012-present era of Giants football isn't exactly something to be sentimental about.
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
We got a HOF year out of Barkley as a rookie. We got a Pro Bowl year out of him in 2022. Everything else wasn't notable.
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In comment 16551176 Eric from BBI said:
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
you remember the ineptitude in the half decade+ before they drafted him right? wilson, vereen, peyton hillis, paul perkins, andre williams, orleans darkwa, etc.
im reasonably hopeful singletary will be solid in at least the rashad jennings category, but that's not saying a ton. hes been durable but he too is a 27 year old RB, also with a lot of carries on him except on a much smaller frame, and its not like they got him on the 1 year 2m contract schoen was envious of from last year. add up his 16.5m and the 10m they paid barkley last year, and you end up pretty close to the extension mike g says he was willing to take.
if the price was exactly the same would you rather have barkley or singletary? obviously the price wasnt the same but the differences arent so vast that this was an obvious call. they are playing on the same cap #'s this year.
We got a HOF year out of Barkley as a rookie. We got a Pro Bowl year out of him in 2022. Everything else wasn't notable.
ok so lets call that a 1 in 3 chance next year is notable.
do you expect a notable season out of singletary?
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I don't mean it as an insult, but your POV seems to be in line with Mara... "we can't get rid of Barkley because we'll get worse at the position."
It's not about the position. It's about the big picture, strategic view of what you want the team to be. Barkley isn't the player fans think he was. You can blame the OL, QB, or injuries, but he wasn't. And he's clearly not getting faster or more explosive.
He'll have a big year for Philly, but it's a different situation.
I give the guy credit for being tough enough to handle a ridiculous workload in a stupidly run offense, but other than that I'd hope the Giants would have gotten more out of 382 plays.
Barkley was not, and never was, a great player for the Giants.
Schoen- weirdly I feel worse. It’s not that his moves look worse it’s just the body language. He’s more … goofy? … than I thought he’d be. This is admittedly non scientific and perhaps doesn’t mean anything but the initial Blink-like impression I get of him is that he’s a lot less serious and formidable than I thought he’d be
I agree with this and know exactly what you mean.
Schoen comes across like a goober. I thought he was a bit more straight laced and conservative than this shows him to be.
It doesn't mean that he can't do his job effectively but the best way that I can describe it is I imagine at the GM meetings that he is at the herb table.
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than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I agree with both posts. Although I'll also say there is some learning on the job which happens as well. Schoen did have a unique situation inheriting a player like Barkley who ownership clearly loves. Couple that with the playoff win in 2022 and the general feeling around the fan base was they just woke up from a coma.
I hope Schoen ultimately grows into a strategist.
He'll probably have a few excellent years in Philly. Maybe he'll win a SB. He certainly was never going to do that here, because we have too many other holes to pay a RB $13 mm a year, as Schoen adroitly recognized.
I know he wanted a corner but getting a big time DE was a tremendous addition. Baby steps. Very interesting to see what they have planned at QB post-2024.
And Barkley off of the Giants is best for both parties, it's a band-aid that needed to be ripped off. I also wonder if Schoen wanted to trade Barkley mid-season and Mara blocked it, and based off of the first two episodes and Mara's previous comments on trading him that is likely what happened. Mara clearly thinks with his heart and not with his head, a trait his father had as well. Admirable as human being, but not for something as cut-throat as the NFL.
Jones is the next band-aid to be ripped off.
I am more upset that it didnt work out. I really like him, wanted him to have a HOF career here. Much like Eli's last years, I feel we failed him.
I don't mean it as an insult, but your POV seems to be in line with Mara... "we can't get rid of Barkley because we'll get worse at the position."
It's not about the position. It's about the big picture, strategic view of what you want the team to be. Barkley isn't the player fans think he was. You can blame the OL, QB, or injuries, but he wasn't. And he's clearly not getting faster or more explosive.
He'll have a big year for Philly, but it's a different situation.
im ok with the big picture of going to more of a passing team, but better players are better players. addition by subtraction is uncommon. barkley looked like a pretty good receiver in this offense down the stretch in 2022 and in the 1 good offensive half of 2023.
i do think there is something to daboll wanting to force the change though and perhaps rip the bandaid off.
I give the guy credit for being tough enough to handle a ridiculous workload in a stupidly run offense, but other than that I'd hope the Giants would have gotten more out of 382 plays.
Barkley was not, and never was, a great player for the Giants.
in 2018 he either tied or broke randy moss' record for long td's as a rookie (think it was like 50 or 60 yards, i forget which).
that team sucked because if memory serves bettchers defense gave up the most points in nyg history. cant remember if that was 2018 or 2019. either way it was an incompetent coaching staff that was pretty quickly out of the nfl altogether.
I like Daboll more. He's not a phony like Judge. And I feel more convinced that Daboll was THE reason we made the playoffs in 2022.
If there is a hot seat, Schoen's ass should be on it.
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In comment 16551255 Essex said:
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than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
I agree with both posts. Although I'll also say there is some learning on the job which happens as well. Schoen did have a unique situation inheriting a player like Barkley who ownership clearly loves. Couple that with the playoff win in 2022 and the general feeling around the fan base was they just woke up from a coma.
I hope Schoen ultimately grows into a strategist.
agreed, and ive said this in other threads but i dont think reactive is the worst criticism. it's a very year to year league so some amount of letting things play out is likely good. adoree jackson for example had 2 very different years.
what troubles me with schoen is how quickly his strategy shifts. he was trying to extend love in nov, 4 months later he lets him walk despite the contract being very reasonable. he spent 8 months trying to extend barkley only to not bridge the gap at finish line, not trade him, and then never put another offer on the table.
those are guys in the building with C's, so are we choosing poor leaders or misevaluating them?
I like Daboll more. He's not a phony like Judge. And I feel more convinced that Daboll was THE reason we made the playoffs in 2022.
If there is a hot seat, Schoen's ass should be on it.
Schoen should be on the hot seat...after two seasons...
Because why? Because Daboll 'crushed' it with a 4th seed schedule and Dave Gettleman's roster?
In your world, how long exactly does it take to create a superbowl roster when two teams in your division are putting up to 10 years of future salary on the field in the given year...and still failing to obtain a superbowl?
Schoen should be on the hot seat...after two seasons...
Because why? Because Daboll 'crushed' it with a 4th seed schedule and Dave Gettleman's roster?
In your world, how long exactly does it take to create a superbowl roster when two teams in your division are putting up to 10 years of future salary on the field in the given year...and still failing to obtain a superbowl?
Well, isn't a fact that the team Daboll coached in 2022 was predominantly Gettleman's players, especially at the key positions?
Remind me. Outside of Okreke, how may high level productive players has Schoen added thus far?
Well, isn't a fact that the team Daboll coached in 2022 was predominantly Gettleman's players, especially at the key positions?
Remind me. Outside of Okreke, how may high level productive players has Schoen added thus far?
Good point, the majority of the roster has been Gettleman's for the last two years. So I guess Daboll is on the hot seat too?
Avoid my question all you want. I know what the conclusion is of some here that share your viewpoint about this team. In summary:
"keep flushing the toilet every two years until something other than shit shows up"
That strategy has worked out for the last 12 years. Lets keep doing it!!!
It's very possible I'm being too hard on Schoen. But this Jones re-re-commitment is a major albatross. He'd better hope Daboll can be his talisman again and make Jones work.
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
But how does Schoen define “getting it done?” Jones plays we in the first 3 games and then injuries start hitting, the line falls apart and the offense stalls, and then Jones goes down with an injury in week 6.
Did he get it done? If the goal is playoffs, does missing the playoffs alone make us move on?
The problem the last few years with Jones is “getting it done” has become “not his fault it didn’t get done, so he stays.”
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than a strategist, which could explain why he was so successful as an Asst. Gm in Buffalo but has not found his footing here yet. I don't feel like when I listen to him that I am listening to some grand strategist, but again this is all edited and I bet the first things to go on the cutting room floor are deep strategic conversations about organization philosophy--so i don't know.
i describe him as reactive vs. proactive. i agree with you the barkley saga looks to me like a guy who didnt have a conviction either way so he ended up half pregnant and losing him for nothing. if he didnt want barkley as much as he seemed they should have traded him at the deadline. pre-deadline he had played some good games (AZ, BUF come to mind) and i believe there had been rumored interest.
Eric, I agree with that summary. I think he did the same thing with Jones as with Barkley. He declined the 5th year option in 2022 based on 2021. Based on 2022, he reversed course in 2023 and signed Jones to an extension.
I would feel better about Schoen if I felt there was a long term strategic plan he was working toward as opposed to plugging holes based on what he saw last year.
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
I root for the laundry.
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
is it acceptable to see it as improving the odds of winning by having a more productive player vs less productive player? barkley has the highest ypg of any rb in team history and we all know what kind of supporting cast/OL he's done that behind his entire career.
ascribing blame for losing to the teams best player seems backwards to me. like, maybe the dozens of teammates he's played with who have not gotten valued at the top of their positions or quickly departed the nfl in general were the bigger problem?
did he not obviously help them win 2022? were they not 6-8 with him in 23, 0-3 without him? but hey, through like 5 different regimes they havent found a good rb other than him since bradshaw in 2008 so they are probably due.
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In comment 16551176 Eric from BBI said:
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
I root for the laundry.
Me too. I like certain players and would hate to see them leave (Dexter Lawrence) but that is because they are good players and easy to root for. If they traded Lawrence and brought in Mahomes, I would really not think about Lawrence again. I just want this team to be a consistent winner.
It's very possible I'm being too hard on Schoen. But this Jones re-re-commitment is a major albatross. He'd better hope Daboll can be his talisman again and make Jones work.
Agreed with what you said. And I like them both. We need them to stay long term to see this through. Jones days were done if they could get Maye, and still are despite Maye. Jones is barely Schoen/Dabolls baby.
I believe we can win in spite of Jones. Many here do not. Regardless of the winning or lack there of…Jones is done here.
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lament the loss of Barkley. Are we really that upset that he is gone?
All of us want the Giants to win, but for many fans, rooting for individual players is how they really enjoy sports. Like there is with Jones, there are a lot of Giants fans who simply like Barkley and hate the fact that he is no longer a Giant. It isn’t based on what is best for the team in the long run.
I'm too old for that. There was a time in my youth where I loved guys like Simms. But as SanFran said, I want the team to win. Pure tribalism.
Barkley? He's with those (blanking) Eagles.
But for the most part, I'm like, 'Whatever.'
I just want to fucking win. I really don't care for anyone personally on this roster. I don't mean to sound crass, but I don't know them/don't wish them ill or anything...but I want to win. I'm sick of being a bottom feeder.
I just want to fucking win. I really don't care for anyone personally on this roster. I don't mean to sound crass, but I don't know them/don't wish them ill or anything...but I want to win. I'm sick of being a bottom feeder.
i agree with that, i just see at least a half dozen wins they dont have in the last 2 years without barkley. maybe more. TEN 2 pt conversion, GB catch and run, HOU 30+ carries, WSH closed out the game, MIN 2 long tds, AZ that 3rd down catch/td, etc. i dont think singletary has ever been a difference maker in that way, which is i think what rossetti was articulating re saquon. rossetti has only been there for 2 years so i dont think he's being sentimental, i think he was looking at the market and correctly determined barkley for all his warts was still the best available.
there is a cost difference but both players have the same cap #s this year. i think anyone confident the nyg got something right the eagles got wrong is probably setting themselves up for disappointment (though id love to be wrong).
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I don't want to give the impression that I think Daboll is the next Andy Reid (not yet, anyway), but it's my opinion that he's been demonstrably better at his job than Schoen so far.
It's very possible I'm being too hard on Schoen. But this Jones re-re-commitment is a major albatross. He'd better hope Daboll can be his talisman again and make Jones work.
Agreed with what you said. And I like them both. We need them to stay long term to see this through. Jones days were done if they could get Maye, and still are despite Maye. Jones is barely Schoen/Dabolls baby.
I believe we can win in spite of Jones. Many here do not. Regardless of the winning or lack there of…Jones is done here.
You believe BD is better at his job than JS basically because of JS commitment to DJ. Do you think JS support of DJ is without BD agreement. I DON'T THINK SO.
You believe BD is better at his job than JS basically because of JS commitment to DJ. Do you think JS support of DJ is without BD agreement. I DON'T THINK SO.
Whether you like or not, the 2022 roster was overwhelming Gettleman's players. And Daboll coached it. What great adds did Schoen make to that roster? James? Hodgins?
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You believe BD is better at his job than JS basically because of JS commitment to DJ. Do you think JS support of DJ is without BD agreement. I DON'T THINK SO.
Whether you like or not, the 2022 roster was overwhelming Gettleman's players. And Daboll coached it. What great adds did Schoen make to that roster? James? Hodgins?
Really don't see the point. BD had no choice but to coach the roster he was given from a prior regime. JS and BD are a new team working in tandem. It seems to me BD has input into JS decisions. I don't think JS would be committed to DJ if Daboll had opposite feelings.
I can't say the same about Schoen. IMO, he underestimated the RB free agent market and asked a surprising question about Josh Jacobs in episode 1. I'd like my GM to know what the top players at each position have accomplished in recently. To ask if Jacobs lead the league in rushing was shocking to hear. So for me, the jury is still out on Schoen