Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
Welcome back, Giants rookies. Camp begins today for them.
Tonight, it's Episode 3 of Hard Knocks. All free agency, Saquon saga comes to a close + a teaser for next week includes what we all insisted they would not show.
Not necessarily. It looked like they were just going through who they would and would not trade up for. I guarantee you they have the same convo about maye and caleb
I'm really surprised at how much they are reveling.
Was never really bought into the Mara conspiracy but the tension he brings when he comes into the room is palatable. Like a disgruntled parent. Nice to see Joe stand his ground.
Funny stuff about Schoen's stress levels, he was really sweating the Burns deal.
Love that they got all their targeted players. Think the circus has left town.
I truly understand why the last ten years happened.
So what exactly are you referencing? The fact that an owner was lamenting the loss of his best player to a division rival?
Not exactly earth shattering stuff.
The *reasoning*. How he explained his point. The guiding light there can't be "He's our most popular player by far". There's little to no sobriety about how bad they've been *with* him.
It certainly adds a ton of context around what Schoen had to deal with after the success of 2022. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge Mara hovering around these decisions is being unfair.
It tells me:
1. He was disappointed to lose the most popular player on the team.
2. He is allowing Schoen to make decisions that he would not normally do....that's the sign of a good owner. We've all been screaming to "...let the football people make football decisions." Well, here it is.
You can’t watch this and come away with any other conclusion than John Mara is an impediment to winning that Schoen and Co. simply have to try and navigate around.
I would love to hear him talk about losing sleep because the team has been a doormat for the last decade instead of “we’re losing our most popular player.”
Interesting that they teased that Daboll was on board trading up for Jayden Daniels. It seems like they wanted to get to #3 because they were good with either Maye or Daniels. Also interesting that is comes across as “We’ll try to get a QB, but if we can’t we’ll roll with Daniel.” I feel better about Schoen after this episode in that it seems he is ok moving on from Barkely but also Jones.
It certainly adds a ton of context around what Schoen had to deal with after the success of 2022. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge Mara hovering around these decisions is being unfair.
Schoen even said to Barkley's agent that this one could be above me. I'm glad Mara didn't force it and make the FO get him back at all costs.
Now, we know NYG controls the content of his series, but so far, I have seen absolutely nothing to remotely suggest that Mara is putting his thumb on the personnel scale anymore.
Now, we know NYG controls the content of his series, but so far, I have seen absolutely nothing to remotely suggest that Mara is putting his thumb on the personnel scale anymore.
This IS Schoen's team.
He's throwing around opinions. If he's saying this about Barkley after a 6-11 season, imagine what he was saying after 2022 and declaring the Giants "back"?
It certainly adds a ton of context around what Schoen had to deal with after the success of 2022. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge Mara hovering around these decisions is being unfair.
I'm sure Schoen feels the weight of a sentimental owner who has become clueless about modern football, but he looks like he's able to navigate around that and get his outcome...
It's a lot easier to navigate it now off 6-11 and a year already into the job. Coming off the first playoff win in a decade and the owner declaring the team back for a first year GM? A lot tougher.
Not excusing Schoen, but I'm sure Mara had strong opinions on Jones & Barkley last year.
His drafts and moves need to hit. If they do, this team should be competing for a wild card. If they don't and it's a 4 win season, I'd imagine Mara will be fuming.
when he's in Schoen's office? I think he's looked grumpy, stressed or frustrated every time. You aren't happy at the oline signings? Burns? Saving like $8m per year at the RB position? I agree he's not pushing down the scale, but he definitely is not pleased, at least in the scenes that stuck with me. No fistbumps from that guy.
Thought it was an interesting insight when Rossetti said (paraphrasing) that “this guy is either going to be our starting RT or guard.” I know Neal is coming back from injury but I was wondering if that means he’s on a short leash in their eyes in general.
Having the Giants on Hard Knocks is like crack. I feel like I need a live feed in to Schoens office.
scan that room for a spare chair or trash can when they mentioned the deal that Barkley got? I think you could see the steam coming out of Mara's head.
Tim seems fairly incompetent and lurks around key decision-making. Not sure how much the staff really respects his insight; he just feels out of place to me.
Ultimately, McDonnell may be more dangerous than Mara since he doesnt appear to have the self awareness and believes he’s earned the right lead the franchise.
Mara didn’t bother me as much tonight. Yes, admitted he’d hate seeing Saquon go to Philly. We all wish it was an AFC team, but he also let Schoen make the call.
It’s clear managing up is part of Schoen’s job, but that’s not unusual in any org. He’s letting Schoen make the decisions.
If Mara got involved at all regarding the walk away price, or applied any subtle pressure on Schoen to match the Philly offer, they didn’t show it
That aside, cool scenes showing Schoen sweating the Burns trade, then holding firm by refusing to add an extra pick
They’ve mostly overlooked McKinney - just hinted the Giants weren’t going to come anywhere near what GB paid him.
Thought it was an interesting insight when Rossetti said (paraphrasing) that “this guy is either going to be our starting RT or guard.” I know Neal is coming back from injury but I was wondering if that means he’s on a short leash in their eyes in general.
Having the Giants on Hard Knocks is like crack. I feel like I need a live feed in to Schoens office.
This was perhaps the one big reveal I took from this episode. Behind the scenes they clearly think this guy is their new starting RT. What they have said publicly has seemed like backup or possibly OG, but that just isn’t the case. I for sure think they are not counting on Neal, he is going to truly have to win the job. And he should. Scholarships are over it’s year 3. Put up or shut up, Neal’s days are numbered. I’m gonna root like hell for him, but I’m happy they made moves to replace what is looking like a bust of a pick.
Episode 2 was the best so far IMO, but going back to the draft again next episode I think next weeks can be the best so far as we get a deeper dive into all the evaluations and players we took. The clip of Daboll claiming Daniels was absolutely worth it if they could land him is certainly interesting.
Strikes me as someone who's annoyed he never got to be GM here.
And I do agree that Mara needs to manage Mara, that will need to be a learned skill. I also would assume the majority of owners would provide an opinion on QB and most popular player. I don't think Mara is on an island there. I'm glad Schoen stood his ground.
It's also very clear to me Jones is a placeholder.
Tonight’s episode made it clear as daywho their FA targets were. Daboll made it clear, when he emphatically said “O Line”
They then keep showing their targets at OL. Runyon, Hunt and Eluemanor. Not on,y did they get two of he three. But the quote constantly mentioned throughout this thread is the “he will play art, or LG”
How is everyone glossing over the fact. That they went into FA target two Guards, and a RT…. That was by far the most telling thing to me about this episode. What they really think of Neal!!!
Tonight’s episode made it clear as daywho their FA targets were. Daboll made it clear, when he emphatically said “O Line”
They then keep showing their targets at OL. Runyon, Hunt and Eluemanor. Not on,y did they get two of he three. But the quote constantly mentioned throughout this thread is the “he will play art, or LG”
How is everyone glossing over the fact. That they went into FA target two Guards, and a RT…. That was by far the most telling thing to me about this episode. What they really think of Neal!!!
Yes, they don’t have any faith in him. I think it’s Elemeanuer’s job to lose. Nelson’s gonna have to win a spot by proving he can protect the QB.
Daboll was trying to keep HBO from being able to use the footage. He said he would play copyrighted music so HBO wouldn't be able to use the footage without paying for the rights.
I guess HBO said, "screw it, let's pay for the rights. We want this scene." Hilarious.
As I've said after every episode Mara is the old Grandpa wandering in to the building from time to time to check out the old family business. Schoen definitely has to navigate around him but he seems definitely up to the challenge. One thing about it appearing that we got all our main targets in free agency. Remember this is heavily edited. They're mainly gonna show us getting the guys we got. Unless it was a huge name we missed out on they're not gonna show the guys we wanted but didn't get. One thing that struck me is how little Schoen was involved with the initial contact with the free agents and their reps and numbers. They really just come to him with the numbers of the offers. I know you have a negotiating team, just thought the GM is more involved in the initial contact, although I guess that's impossible with so many irons in the fire at once.
Daboll was trying to keep HBO from being able to use the footage. He said he would play copyrighted music so HBO wouldn't be able to use the footage without paying for the rights.
I guess HBO said, "screw it, let's pay for the rights. We want this scene." Hilarious.
Came to say this, Dabes did it on purpose. He said that was his plan at the Giants event at MSG. He made HBO open their pocketbooks because then content was so good.
have a real appetite to work in a front office. Which is perfectly fine. He seems more into the X's and O's and coaching. Hell probably be more into the personnel decisions at the draft. Who knows though maybe it's just his disdain with being on the show in general. Just seems like before free agency he's get real quiet when Schoen asked for his input and really wasn't in the room when most of the day was going down.
1) Mara is a meddler, despite how hard some on here try to dispute that. Schoen has little give when it comes to Mara (at least this offseason).
This is completely correct.
Listen there's no doubt Mara was giving a lot of input on Saquon. That was a unique personell decision stretched out over 2 off seasons in that he was the biggest name and "face of the franchise". Most owners are going to give input on that unique circumstance. If Mara was in Schoen's ear over Eluemunor or Runyan I'd be more concerned.
The second point. Daboll wants to move on from Daniel Jones asap. One of the reasons they didn't like McCarthy is because they didn't want "another Daniel Jones"
isn't it Mara's job, as the representative of all the owners, to voice to Schoen that Barkley is the most popular player (with the subtext that he's a money-maker)?
It would be one thing if Mara owned the team himself. But he's representing several Maras and Tisches; I think he has the obligation to at least make Schoen aware that there's a financial component to the decision.
I'm happy he let Schoen pass on Saquon.
I also do believe he's too involved, but I'm not quite sure that this particular decision is fully representative of that.
I agree. I just hate that 31 other teams and fanbases get to see it too.
I again came away with positive impressions of Schoen, Burns and most of his staff.
John Mara comes in and acts like he’s the janitor BSing with the GM. Mara should worry about the next medium Pepsi deal and stay out of the football business.
Schoen is clearly walking a tight rope between trying to build the best roster while dealing with a boss born on third base believing he hit a triple.
very interesting that they would have done both runyan and hunt if they could have afforded it. also interesting given how close they obviously are that d-mo did ended up going big for hunt too and pairing him with lewis.
we all knew mike g was well sourced but clips of him on nfl network accurately reporting on joe schoen's nervous system during FA negotiations were a whole different level.
to those that seem to think nfl ops are run like blind trusts, can you name an nfl team that actually runs that way?
notice morgan took a day to get back to schoen from his conversation with tepper? and every owner is in every draft room? what owner/ceo of what type of 6 billion $ entertainment business do you expect to not have an opinion when it comes to big public facing decisions?
1. Schoen defers to pro personnel guys from FA decisions, which is interesting
2. Free Agency is not as black and white as some of us fans make it out to be. There is a lot the org can’t control - and ultimately it comes down to the player deciding what he wants. There was a plan, but at the end of the day the team is just trying to get the best players they can with what they have available.
3. Mara is meddling, but ultimately deferring to Schoen and co
4. Motor was a Daboll move through and through
5. Based on the teaser, QB trade up was the #1 priority on the draft - Dabes seems to be the driving force behind it.
6. Don’t think they had any intention of paying McKinney…haven’t heard much about him.
7. Where is Kafka
8. They seem to be very high on Eluemunor - Schoen kept referring to him as their #1 guy.
8. They seem to be very high on Eluemunor - Schoen kept referring to him as their #1 guy.
The Kafka stuff is definitely bizarre. Like give the guy a vanity scene or two like Bowen. We've basically only heard bowen say 'pass rush' but at least he's present.
I think Schoen's comment about Eluemunor was that "he was their top guy" which i took to mean the Raiders, which he'd probably know bc of Bricillo, and had to be the guy pushing for him in the first place. that doesn't entirely make sense because kolton miller is obviously a better player, but maybe bricillo had eluemeanor graded out highest on that line? obviously with the deal he got nobody else around the league thought eluemeanor was the #1 anything.
it also seemed like if they could have gotten hunt/runyan they would have done that which i think would have meant no elumeanor.
The second point. Daboll wants to move on from Daniel Jones asap. One of the reasons they didn't like McCarthy is because they didn't want "another Daniel Jones"
1. They have to let Mara talk,they don't have to listen.
2. JS got the numbers for Barkely and then when he called the agent later he was told he would have to go north of it. So basically the giants had to beat not match the deal. I wonder if Philly got the same call and they increased their offer to beat the top offer. We don't know if they would have given him the previously discussed terms.
3. They wanted all 3 OL but said the extra money took for Runyon took Hunt off the table. Hunt got a ton of money were they ready to go there. Joe and Daboll discussed OL as number 1 over pass rush does this lead to if we could get Hunt that meant no Burns? Or was Burns only an option after we knew Barkley was gone?
8. They seem to be very high on Eluemunor - Schoen kept referring to him as their #1 guy.
The Kafka stuff is definitely bizarre. Like give the guy a vanity scene or two like Bowen. We've basically only heard bowen say 'pass rush' but at least he's present.
I think Schoen's comment about Eluemunor was that "he was their top guy" which i took to mean the Raiders, which he'd probably know bc of Bricillo, and had to be the guy pushing for him in the first place. that doesn't entirely make sense because kolton miller is obviously a better player, but maybe bricillo had eluemeanor graded out highest on that line? obviously with the deal he got nobody else around the league thought eluemeanor was the #1 anything.
it also seemed like if they could have gotten hunt/runyan they would have done that which i think would have meant no elumeanor.
Yeah I think that’s right. They had that other Oline (Hunt?) as a target to for a lot more money so must mean the raiders best lineman. Ties into the comment from Schoen earlier about walkway point.
way Schoen kept referring to Elumenor as "their" number 1 guy made me feel like he was talking about the coaching staff. Saying it to Daboll in one conversation and then the front office staff in another makes me think the "their" he's referencing is Carmen Bricillo and maybe James Ferentz. The fact the two times he said it once was to the pro personell staff and once to Daboll makes me think the only "their" who wasn't in the room on either occasion was the o-line coaches. I too thought the most important takeaway from the episode was that they went into free agency with the intent to come out with 3 new starters; makes me scratch my head a little bit that no o-lineman were drafted at all after missing out on Hunt.
we were trading up or taking whatever QB was left at 6 or who knew we were all in on McCarthy now are certain (based on absolutely nothing) that Daboll wants a new QB.
with obvious caveat that I’m over analyzing an edited segment, and there were no doubt more discussions behind the scenes were not privy to…IMO Schoen seemed relieved with the finality of being able to say “we’re out” on Saquon. I suspect he really didn’t want to commit the money/years to RB, as has been discussed
That gave him cover to tell Mara et al Saquon’s price got too high, rather than having to have it out over whether they wanted him back at all
1. Schoen defers to pro personnel guys from FA decisions, which is interesting
2. Free Agency is not as black and white as some of us fans make it out to be. There is a lot the org can’t control - and ultimately it comes down to the player deciding what he wants. There was a plan, but at the end of the day the team is just trying to get the best players they can with what they have available.
3. Mara is meddling, but ultimately deferring to Schoen and co
4. Motor was a Daboll move through and through
5. Based on the teaser, QB trade up was the #1 priority on the draft - Dabes seems to be the driving force behind it.
6. Don’t think they had any intention of paying McKinney…haven’t heard much about him.
7. Where is Kafka
8. They seem to be very high on Eluemunor - Schoen kept referring to him as their #1 guy.
On no 2: What struck me is how frustrated Schoen and his FO seemed by this. They try to boil FA down to a science: player eval and salary cap room. Signing a guy may mean losing a guy and vice versa. But no matter how much time they spend and discussions into the early morning, they have no control. It's at the mercy of the players and the other teams who have more money to spend.
we were trading up or taking whatever QB was left at 6 or who knew we were all in on McCarthy now are certain (based on absolutely nothing) that Daboll wants a new QB.
His eyes lit up like he saw a pair of tits for the first time at the mere suggestion of trading of for Daniels.
Tim seems fairly incompetent and lurks around key decision-making. Not sure how much the staff really respects his insight; he just feels out of place to me.
Ultimately, McDonnell may be more dangerous than Mara since he doesnt appear to have the self awareness and believes he’s earned the right lead the franchise.
McDonnell is an incompetent. That was obvious in the first episode.
In retrospect, this suggests to me that Gettleman was either unable or unwilling to manage Mara to move this team forward.
Gettleman wanted to stick with Shurmur, Mara wanted to make a change. We hear a lot about Gettleman's arrogance on BBI, but he may have been collaborative to a fault when it came to accommodating Mara and Joe Judge (the Toney vs Darrisaw?).
The second point. Daboll wants to move on from Daniel Jones asap. One of the reasons they didn't like McCarthy is because they didn't want "another Daniel Jones"
They aren't anything alike.
That quote comes directly from a member of the Giants organization who is heavily involved in the draft process.
I don't have HBO and so I haven't seen the past two episodes
But based on the first episode, I think what we're seeing from Mara, McDonald, Rosetti, etc, when they offer opposing points to Schoen's contentions is simply a case of them doing their jobs in voicing to the ultimate decision maker the flipside to any decision he is considering. Every personnel decision comes with its share of pro's and con's and it's up to a manager's support team to make sure he's checked all the relevant boxes before making a decision.
we were trading up or taking whatever QB was left at 6 or who knew we were all in on McCarthy now are certain (based on absolutely nothing) that Daboll wants a new QB.
Every tidbit of information for two years has told them the exact same thing, including the 84 million guaranteed.
- Don't take what you see in the teasers as gospel. One week it made it seem like a contract was offered to Saquon, the next week confirmed there was not
- Despite Saquon saying "we never offered him a contract" there was clearly an intent to resign him within the organization and truth be told, they did right by him by letting him explore
- "Meddling Mara" is very much a thing. So far this series has confirmed him to be exactly what I thought he was. A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
- Something tells me 18 months ago Schoen would let himself be influenced by the Meddling but has gotten to a point where he realizes he needs to ignore it
- I wouldn't trust having Tim McDonnell around me at all if I were Schoen, he seems to be a mouthpiece for John
- Very quick and innocuous comment about Eleumunor that "he could play RT or G", telling in regards to long term plans for Neal
- All FA seemed to costs exactly $1mil more than they guessed they would, seemed a little staged
- Daboll was clearly conscious he was on camera during the scene talking about FA, did not seem comfortable talking while being filmed. HBO must have paid up for music rights on that one...
But it's comical....some here calls the owner....meddling!
I owned several businesses and yes, the owner better be knee deep in meddling!
I view Mara as a decent man....who cares for his players...past and present and concerned how fans will respond to some of their moves.
And as far "meddling"...seems very minor and controlled.
If I was Mara and thought Barkley was the Giants fans favorite player and he went to the Eagles....I would not take it so well.
I'm going to disagree here. I also come from a small business background before going into the corporate world and basically starting businesses within business.
While John has a right to convey his feelings, when you're in a production orientated business you have to realize this may be counterproductive to the overall goal. Given the results since 2012, its hard to argue he's been effective as an owner...
Also keep in mind that they're also paying Joe Schoen millions of dollars a year. Its not good business to spend that money on a high level employee and push to influence their decisions just to placate your own emotions.
Also, please remember when you refer to Mara as the owner, this also isn't a factual statement. He's "an" owner that was voted by the others to be President of the team. His personal stake in the team is actually substantially lower that Tisch's.
Everyone piling on Mara but he isn't exactly making any decisions here. He's voicing some opinions here and there in these discussions but he's basically letting Schoen handle everything. I don't blame him for being nervous about losing Barkley. He's the owner of the team.
- "Meddling Mara" is very much a thing. So far this series has confirmed him to be exactly what I thought he was. A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
- Something tells me 18 months ago Schoen would let himself be influenced by the Meddling but has gotten to a point where he realizes he needs to ignore it
- I wouldn't trust having Tim McDonnell around me at all if I were Schoen, he seems to be a mouthpiece for John
Having someone working for you who cannot lose his job and is going to be the team CEO someday because he flew out of Ann Mara's uterus is an absurd situation.
They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
when they were discussing how durable Runyan has been during his career as JS was saying to up the Jets offer. Two things were striking about it; (1) I still can't believe after our last decade of injuries Ronnie Barnes has that much influence--I thought he was a figurehead at this point for his long time service; and (2) Runyan just got the kiss of death
Also, please remember when you refer to Mara as the owner, this also isn't a factual statement. He's "an" owner that was voted by the others to be President of the team. His personal stake in the team is actually substantially lower that Tisch's.
This is a fact that should be repeatedly beaten into the minds of Giants fans.
John Mara personally owns less than 5% of the Giants.
Everyone piling on Mara but he isn't exactly making any decisions here. He's voicing some opinions here and there in these discussions but he's basically letting Schoen handle everything. I don't blame him for being nervous about losing Barkley. He's the owner of the team.
I agree with this. Look, as an owner, Mara SHOULD make his voice heard, but what he shouldn’t do is put his thumb on the scale and prevent his personnel guys from making the moves they think are best. I haven’t seen any evidence of that.
Everyone piling on Mara but he isn't exactly making any decisions here. He's voicing some opinions here and there in these discussions but he's basically letting Schoen handle everything. I don't blame him for being nervous about losing Barkley. He's the owner of the team.
I wish his concerns were more about winning than retaining a popular player for a significant cap number. Like, the team needs are obvious. He looked as if this issue was agony for him.
Schoen: “Would you trade up for Daniels?” Daboll: “Absolutely.” But they weren’t looking for a QB.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
we were trading up or taking whatever QB was left at 6 or who knew we were all in on McCarthy now are certain (based on absolutely nothing) that Daboll wants a new QB.
That they weren’t sold on McCarthy doesn’t mean they didn’t want a QB. Daboll took about half a second to respond “Absolutely” to Schoen’s suggestion of trading up for Jayden Daniels. We know they made an effort to move up for Maye. But keep deluding yourself that they really didn’t want a QB because they just love St Daniel to death.
(I've only watched this once and had to deal with background noise in the house so I need to watch it again... also again, it's important to note this was edited so we don't have a totally honest/accurate picture...)
- The earlier episodes gave me the strong impression that Schoen didn't REALLY want to bring back Barkley at the price points being discussed. However, this episode suggests they were still willing to pay him big bucks to bring him back. Would Schoen have done so at the $12.5 million APY with the guaranteed money being discussed in that one call? Sounds possible.
- However, if they did re-sign Barkley, they would not have had money for others, possibly Brian Burns and at the very least one of the two OLs.
- Odd more focus was not on Xavier. That feels like editing.
- Interesting that in an ideal world, they wanted to bring in three starters on the OL.
- Something is fishy/off with the discussions between Daboll and Schoen. At times, it sounds like a couple of casual fans talking rather than the two key decision makers having an honest discussion. I find it difficult to believe they were having such a cavalier discussion about team needs like that. Was that re-enacted for the camera or do they truly spitball so casually like that?
- Mixed feelings on Mara at this point. There is nothing wrong with him voicing his opinion. He pays the checks. But I agree with the posts above that he has to be managed somewhat (if he's reading these comments, he's probably offended by that, but that's they way it comes across). The show/edits give the strong impression (maybe intentional) that he is kept in the loop but is not calling the shots, which is good.
- Biggest take-away for me is that it is very clear that Drew Lock is an afterthought. He was not brought in to compete for the starting job. That was the most important thing this show told me.
- I understand why they didn't but I wished they focused more on the second-tier free agents, Jalen Mills, Isaiah McKenzie, Stinnie, Schlottman, Nelson, the tight ends, Jordon Phillips, etc.
- Overall, not as good as episode two, but part of that was a function of the content (free agency).
The second point. Daboll wants to move on from Daniel Jones asap. One of the reasons they didn't like McCarthy is because they didn't want "another Daniel Jones"
They aren't anything alike.
They likely saw McCarthy as a game manager type, that’s the common thread.
RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
Schoen: “Would you trade up for Daniels?” Daboll: “Absolutely.” But they weren’t looking for a QB.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
I think it is probably accurate, but Daboll plays it close to the vest on this show, even to the point that he tried to play a song so they couldn't hear the conversation. So, I would just wait to see if there is not a joke after that teaser or some other explanation to put it in context as opposed to just taking it at face value on the teaser.
But it's comical....some here calls the owner....meddling!
I owned several businesses and yes, the owner better be knee deep in meddling!
I view Mara as a decent man....who cares for his players...past and present and concerned how fans will respond to some of their moves.
And as far "meddling"...seems very minor and controlled.
If I was Mara and thought Barkley was the Giants fans favorite player and he went to the Eagles....I would not take it so well.
If your company is successful, by all means meddle.
When it's been nothing but failure (on the field) for the better part of decade, please keep your opinions to yourself and try to find smart people to fix it.
Everyone piling on Mara but he isn't exactly making any decisions here. He's voicing some opinions here and there in these discussions but he's basically letting Schoen handle everything. I don't blame him for being nervous about losing Barkley. He's the owner of the team.
I wish his concerns were more about winning than retaining a popular player for a significant cap number. Like, the team needs are obvious. He looked as if this issue was agony for him.
100%. When Mara said “he’s our most popular player”, I wanted to put my fist through the TV. Who cares? This isn’t Coke changing the formula of its iconic soda, it’s not overpaying the most popular player on a lousy football team.
Everyone piling on Mara but he isn't exactly making any decisions here. He's voicing some opinions here and there in these discussions but he's basically letting Schoen handle everything. I don't blame him for being nervous about losing Barkley. He's the owner of the team.
I wish his concerns were more about winning than retaining a popular player for a significant cap number. Like, the team needs are obvious. He looked as if this issue was agony for him.
100%. When Mara said “he’s our most popular player”, I wanted to put my fist through the TV. Who cares? This isn’t Coke changing the formula of its iconic soda, it’s not overpaying the most popular player on a lousy football team.
He is your most popular player really only matters if you are reliant on fans as a revenue source; an NFL's team's revenue source is much more varied than ticket and jersey sales (which the Giants do well enough in to begin with). Such a stupid comment by Mara.
The Eagles have invested and developed their oline to keep them at a premium level the last decade.
They've marched out multiple different running backs and have had an above average ground attack.
Sure, Barkley will get his numbers (if he stays healthy). The real analysis the media WON'T do is would the Eagles be better with a less expensive option at RB, and using the Barkley funds somewhere else on the roster. I think the answer would be yes.
Watching this episode - is the TEAM better trading down to Singletary (whom may not even be a trade down) in addition to one of the Olinemen signed or Burns? I'd say the answer is definite yes.
RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
Schoen: “Would you trade up for Daniels?” Daboll: “Absolutely.” But they weren’t looking for a QB.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning. They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Even Schoen’s comment if they couldn’t trade up, about being OK with taking a potential game breaking talent “and rolling it back with Daniel” hardly screams a raving endorsement. It sounds more like kicking the question down the road for another year.
is the internal discussion of what re-signing Barkley would have meant for the other signings. You can't give Barkley that money without losing out on other players. Schoen obviously said that, but it was edited out.
about how any owner operates. No one is going to buy a business and then just walk away on any big decisions. The fact that Schoen is clearly in charge here is exactly how we should want and expect things to work. The notion of an owner who doesn't ever express any opinions about the big decision if total fan fantasy.
the show did a good job of showing how waiting for news on one free agent can impact the entire free agent period for a team.
One thing I was unclear about and was not sure about the editing was that the Giants seem to be going after Devin Singletary before even they knew about Barkley--strongly suggesting to me if it was properly sequenced that they never really thought they would resign Barkley. But who knows.
My issue is that Mara does influence decisions but not in a positive
way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
the show did a good job of showing how waiting for news on one free agent can impact the entire free agent period for a team.
One thing I was unclear about and was not sure about the editing was that the Giants seem to be going after Devin Singletary before even they knew about Barkley--strongly suggesting to me if it was properly sequenced that they never really thought they would resign Barkley. But who knows.
Glad you mentioned this.... it's also pretty clear that Daboll really likes Singletary (teaser continues to suggest to me too that Daboll loves Nabers).
Is played up for the audience. There are going to me MANY discussions which do not get aired. The editors are going to select the few which focus on a decision that could go either way, and that's what we'll see.
RE: My issue is that Mara does influence decisions but not in a positive
way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
Could be editing, but yes, he's coming across as a whiny grandparent who comes wandering into the room and everyone is on their best behavior until he waddles off.
we were trading up or taking whatever QB was left at 6 or who knew we were all in on McCarthy now are certain (based on absolutely nothing) that Daboll wants a new QB.
way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
Could be editing, but yes, he's coming across as a whiny grandparent who comes wandering into the room and everyone is on their best behavior until he waddles off.
Great analogy. That's exactly what it's like.
Anyone who's ever worked for a closely held firm, or reported to an active board, is familiar with the concept.
way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
Everyone piling on Mara but he isn't exactly making any decisions here. He's voicing some opinions here and there in these discussions but he's basically letting Schoen handle everything. I don't blame him for being nervous about losing Barkley. He's the owner of the team.
I wish his concerns were more about winning than retaining a popular player for a significant cap number. Like, the team needs are obvious. He looked as if this issue was agony for him.
100%. When Mara said “he’s our most popular player”, I wanted to put my fist through the TV. Who cares? This isn’t Coke changing the formula of its iconic soda, it’s not overpaying the most popular player on a lousy football team.
I posted earlier on the thread that Tim lurks around key decision and makes the same type of comments, "What's our identity going to be now?" (if they lose SB).
Mara is OLD but Tim is the next problem on the horizon.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
As promised, my thoughts on last night:
• The anniversary dinner was delightful.
• Saquon was telling the truth. The Giants never made an offer and his agent did give them a chance to match. I mentioned weeks ago about how reality TV shows are masters of the overly juicy preview clip. (That said next week's tease seemed unequivocal in Daboll's support of trading up for Daniels).
• Clear how rampant tampering is when Berry was able to give Schoen a highly accurate market price before the negotiating window opened.
• Those were some uneasy conversations between Mara and Schoen. Lot of nervous laughter from Schoen. I saw the debate yesterday about the Saquon decision putting Schoen on the hot seat. It's obviously not that simple. But it would be a big log on the fire if Saquon tears it up in Philly and the Giants offense stinks without him.
I think Schoen handled the Saquon situation correctly. But that doesn't mean he'll be immune from scrutiny, especially from his skeptical boss, if he's not validated by results. I'm sure Schoen really wishes that text about Saquon going to the Bears was accurate.
• Obvious but Brian Burns really needs to deliver. Point got driven home about how much one move impacts others. They couldn't shop the top of the OL market (Hunt got $20M/year) or really make any other defensive additions in FA after committing to Burns.
Not a surprise, but Bowen confirmed Burns will play a "shit ton" of snaps. Interesting that Daboll asked about his sack production considering how much coaches tend to downplay the stat.
• Disappointed that we didn't get to see much of the Burns trade negotiations. We went from preliminary talks at the Senior Bowl/combine to finalizing very different details at the start of FA.
• Also disappointed by the lack of insight into McKinney's departure. He doesn't have Saquon's star power but his contract is worth $30M more. Would have liked to get some sense on what, if anything, the Giants even offered.
• Daboll emphasized the need for interior OL. Very little talk of Neal positively or negatively. Rossetti mentioned Eluemunor as the possible starting RT or LG. When Schoen listed the young core OL if they signed Runyan, he mentioned Thomas and JMS but not Neal.
Adding a third year for Runyan without upping the guarantees from the Jets' two-year offer is a win for the Giants. That additional year essentially serves as a team option.
Eluemunor negotiating was interesting, with him wanting a two-year deal and the team then wanting no guarantees in Year 2. They can get out pretty painlessly if they want to move on after this season.
• Surprised they seemed confident in re-signing Tyrod. I got the sense that he was ready to move on after how last season unfolded.
• This episode felt more like an edited TV show. I'm sure they had more targets than the handful featured. And it would have been more interesting to get to watch Abrams/Triggs negotiate rather than hear about it after, but I get why there would be issues with getting to show that.
RE: RE: My issue is that Mara does influence decisions but not in a positive
way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
This is one decision. What about Eli? What about Jones and Barkley the season before. If I had to guess, Mara was a big reason why they did what they did. Now, I am sure Schoen saw what happened last year and is now trying to correct it. I think Mara realizes that it was the wrong move but still wants Barkley. That is why it looks the way it does now. This is only a snapshot of what goes on but for those that think Mara is the common theme of all these bad regimes, it is only supporting their case.
as I said last night. He didn't get his way. That's a good sign.
This should be the main take away. The expectations that the owner has no discussions about big team decisions is fan fantasy. Clearly Schoen is calling the shots. That's the obvious takeway, but don't expect people to take in the obvious when it counters their preconceptions.
way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
This is one decision. What about Eli? What about Jones and Barkley the season before. If I had to guess, Mara was a big reason why they did what they did. Now, I am sure Schoen saw what happened last year and is now trying to correct it. I think Mara realizes that it was the wrong move but still wants Barkley. That is why it looks the way it does now. This is only a snapshot of what goes on but for those that think Mara is the common theme of all these bad regimes, it is only supporting their case.
So basically, you have your views, and when shown to be wrong, you refuse to adjust your thinking. Gettleman was a puppet. He probably did whatever Mara wanted. But he's not GM anymore, and for good reason.
RE: My issue is that Mara does influence decisions but not in a positive
way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
Anytime your boss says "I couldn't sleep if he went to a division rival" it effects how you operate. Now it might not make you make the decision, but it makes you think. In fact, Schoen knew this and asked Ed Berry to give him the heads up.
I think the nuance between John Mara running a football organization and Joe Schoen running a football team is lost on many fans.
John Mara in an ultra-minority owner of the Giants (less than 5%) -- he is the president and CEO of the organization. And part, but not all of it, is the football team.
RE: RE: RE: RE: My issue is that Mara does influence decisions but not in a positive
way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
This is one decision. What about Eli? What about Jones and Barkley the season before. If I had to guess, Mara was a big reason why they did what they did. Now, I am sure Schoen saw what happened last year and is now trying to correct it. I think Mara realizes that it was the wrong move but still wants Barkley. That is why it looks the way it does now. This is only a snapshot of what goes on but for those that think Mara is the common theme of all these bad regimes, it is only supporting their case.
So basically, you have your views, and when shown to be wrong, you refuse to adjust your thinking. Gettleman was a puppet. He probably did whatever Mara wanted. But he's not GM anymore, and for good reason.
Are you talking to me or about Mara. What am I wrong about if that is what you neant? All I am talking about is how bad this team has been for the past decade plus. The common denominator is Mara. He has to look in the mirror. All I care about is results but when you have the same shitty results with multiple regimes (GMs, coaches, players, scouts, etc.) then you can't keep blaming those around you. I have never been on that side that Mara is the problem but nothing I have seen so far tells me he isn't influencing things in a negative way.
is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: My issue is that Mara does influence decisions but not in a positive
way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
This is one decision. What about Eli? What about Jones and Barkley the season before. If I had to guess, Mara was a big reason why they did what they did. Now, I am sure Schoen saw what happened last year and is now trying to correct it. I think Mara realizes that it was the wrong move but still wants Barkley. That is why it looks the way it does now. This is only a snapshot of what goes on but for those that think Mara is the common theme of all these bad regimes, it is only supporting their case.
So basically, you have your views, and when shown to be wrong, you refuse to adjust your thinking. Gettleman was a puppet. He probably did whatever Mara wanted. But he's not GM anymore, and for good reason.
Are you talking to me or about Mara. What am I wrong about if that is what you neant? All I am talking about is how bad this team has been for the past decade plus. The common denominator is Mara. He has to look in the mirror. All I care about is results but when you have the same shitty results with multiple regimes (GMs, coaches, players, scouts, etc.) then you can't keep blaming those around you. I have never been on that side that Mara is the problem but nothing I have seen so far tells me he isn't influencing things in a negative way.
Fair enough, but the point is, you need a strong GM to be successful. I don't think we had that in DG. The fact that JS made the call with Barkley, clearly a very emotional decision for the owner, is a very good sign. That doesn;t mean Schoen is the guy --his actual selections still need to pan out, but at least what we saw here is a necessary condition for success. Namely, being strong enough to make the tough calls despite owner influence. That's all I'm saying.
is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
Quote:
They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
- Something tells me 18 months ago Schoen would let himself be influenced by the Meddling but has gotten to a point where he realizes he needs to ignore it
brian flores and daniel jones' 5yo would disagree with that observation.
is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
It's also not an issue if you have a strong GM. And if you don't have a strong GM, you aren't going to be successful. You can say "good decisions" but if he's not studying tape and pouring over analytics, how good can you expect that decision making to be compared to the full strength of competing team's scouting departments? Not very good, IMO.
I think the notion of a Owner who has zero involvement in the big decisions is fan fantasy. Ultimately what you need is the GM making the decisions. That's what we saw here.
seeing the involvement by some of the guys who work the contract stuff. Those are massively important people who don't always get visibility. That was probably one of my favorite takeaways.
(I've only watched this once and had to deal with background noise in the house so I need to watch it again... also again, it's important to note this was edited so we don't have a totally honest/accurate picture...)
- The earlier episodes gave me the strong impression that Schoen didn't REALLY want to bring back Barkley at the price points being discussed. However, this episode suggests they were still willing to pay him big bucks to bring him back. Would Schoen have done so at the $12.5 million APY with the guaranteed money being discussed in that one call? Sounds possible.
- However, if they did re-sign Barkley, they would not have had money for others, possibly Brian Burns and at the very least one of the two OLs.
- Odd more focus was not on Xavier. That feels like editing.
- Interesting that in an ideal world, they wanted to bring in three starters on the OL.
- Something is fishy/off with the discussions between Daboll and Schoen. At times, it sounds like a couple of casual fans talking rather than the two key decision makers having an honest discussion. I find it difficult to believe they were having such a cavalier discussion about team needs like that. Was that re-enacted for the camera or do they truly spitball so casually like that?
- Mixed feelings on Mara at this point. There is nothing wrong with him voicing his opinion. He pays the checks. But I agree with the posts above that he has to be managed somewhat (if he's reading these comments, he's probably offended by that, but that's they way it comes across). The show/edits give the strong impression (maybe intentional) that he is kept in the loop but is not calling the shots, which is good.
- Biggest take-away for me is that it is very clear that Drew Lock is an afterthought. He was not brought in to compete for the starting job. That was the most important thing this show told me.
- I understand why they didn't but I wished they focused more on the second-tier free agents, Jalen Mills, Isaiah McKenzie, Stinnie, Schlottman, Nelson, the tight ends, Jordon Phillips, etc.
- Overall, not as good as episode two, but part of that was a function of the content (free agency).
i think they were going to do 2 OL FAs not 3.
Had Hunt taken their offer which was presumably in the 13-15m range and not gotten $20m per year, I think it's likely they would have added him and Runyan and Burns. Even at the $100m cap number, Hunt's cap hit this year is 6.45m which is actually similar to Eluemeanor's 4.75m.
id imagine once hunt's price went to 20m/year they viewed him just like barkley as too expensive.
it appears they had a contract agreed with burns the entire time even as offers were out on hunt, runyan, singletary, which must have been negotiated before the day of FA opened since the entire decision was in tepper's lap.
remember 1 other thing with burns, at some point after he accepted the deal they revised his structure and lowered his year 1 cap hit to make the deal slightly less flat. i believe not long after that they did the hodgins/phillips/simmons contracts on above minimum deals, so it's possible they wanted to shift the money knowing they had some interest in bringing those guys in. either way the point is all of it was manageable. the prices went out of their comfort zone so they went to singletary/eluemeanor as 1-2 year stop gaps.
ive been critical of schoen but i would say this was his best episode, i appreciate that he has strong discipline in negotiations even when i dont agree with his decisions. it seemed like they had both runyan and hunt identified for their pass pro plus burns and i think that was an excellent plan A.
Mara maybe meddling BUT Schoen making the final calls
Year 3 of Schoen GM tenure and his signings and picks need to start paying off.
This is his team now. Like or not DJ is his QB. Have no idea about 2025 going forward at most important position on team
Daboll seems so disinterested imv
I really enjoyed episode 2 and 3.
Can’t wait for draft episode.
is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
It's also not an issue if you have a strong GM. And if you don't have a strong GM, you aren't going to be successful. You can say "good decisions" but if he's not studying tape and pouring over analytics, how good can you expect that decision making to be compared to the full strength of competing team's scouting departments? Not very good, IMO.
I think the notion of a Owner who has zero involvement in the big decisions is fan fantasy. Ultimately what you need is the GM making the decisions. That's what we saw here.
exactly right especially the bold. head coach is the other layer of protection bc you need a strong head coach even more than a strong GM, and in that area i think we can be more confident with daboll than schoen.
Schoen was clearly focused on OL before any other position which is obviously smart. And they basically made offers to all of the top guards. Again, smart.
One comment that struck me was Rosetti saying Eleumenor was going to be either their "left guard or right tackle" meaning that Neal ultimately is now showing any kind of confidence in the front office. This also struck me as Runyan was clearly the right guard.
I think every Daboll-Schoen interaction is staged and scripted, just
to get Daboll on the show a little. Its clear he doesn't want to do it. Did you watch him leave after that cryptic 30 seconds of brainstorming session in Schoens office? He was almost running down the hall, and the look on his face was get me off this set now.
to get Daboll on the show a little. Its clear he doesn't want to do it. Did you watch him leave after that cryptic 30 seconds of brainstorming session in Schoens office? He was almost running down the hall, and the look on his face was get me off this set now.
"Holy Shit!! The owner of the team has a personal opinion on the players that play on the team that he owns! And he expresses them to his GM! ERMAHGERD!! Oh what a world, what a world! The Nerve!! The Cheek!! The GALL!! Now Schoen is on the hot seat!! THAT'S SO WHY we are still trotting out Daniel Jones!!"
about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Barkley is a nationally known player. X is not. It’s as simple as that. Hard Knocks lives on forever and focusing on a little known safety is not something Skydance, NFL Films and HBO are going to do. Giants fans are just a small part of the audience watching the show.
about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Barkley is a nationally known player. X is not. It’s as simple as that. Hard Knocks lives on forever and focusing on a little known safety is not something Skydance, NFL Films and HBO are going to do. Giants fans are just a small part of the audience watching the show.
It get it, but it's annoying.
RE: OMG with the meddling owner conspiracies.... LOL
"Holy Shit!! The owner of the team has a personal opinion on the players that play on the team that he owns! And he expresses them to his GM! ERMAHGERD!! Oh what a world, what a world! The Nerve!! The Cheek!! The GALL!! Now Schoen is on the hot seat!! THAT'S SO WHY we are still trotting out Daniel Jones!!"
lol
At least you're moving the bar. Just a a few months ago, it was "conspiracy theory" to say John had any significant say in personnel matters.
to get Daboll on the show a little. Its clear he doesn't want to do it. Did you watch him leave after that cryptic 30 seconds of brainstorming session in Schoens office? He was almost running down the hall, and the look on his face was get me off this set now.
I think the same thing, but the result is that Daboll sometimes comes off looking clueless/disinterested.
RE: RE: I think every Daboll-Schoen interaction is staged and scripted, just
to get Daboll on the show a little. Its clear he doesn't want to do it. Did you watch him leave after that cryptic 30 seconds of brainstorming session in Schoens office? He was almost running down the hall, and the look on his face was get me off this set now.
I think the same thing, but the result is that Daboll sometimes comes off looking clueless/disinterested.
Which is why episode 2 is still my favorite. We saw the real Daboll because you can't hide those Combine interviews.
about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Since SB was the "most popular player", I wouldn't put it past co-director/producer Mara to want to make sure the fan base knows they tried really hard to keep Barkley with this version of Hard Knocks.
So forgive me if this has been mentioned, but I remember someone here posting that Dabol played music when the cameras were around so they couldn’t use his private conversations. Well…. HBO just said nice try, we will just pay the licensing fees and incorporate the music into the show.
Like I said, I will have to go back and re-watch because I know I missed out on some stuff. I may have missed the 2 versus 3 OL thing.
yea i do the same and havent rewatched yet either, pretty sure it was more of a 2/3 thing but they didnt know which 2 they could get and dropped down to eluemeanor once hunt got too expensive.
about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Since SB was the "most popular player", I wouldn't put it past co-director/producer Mara to want to make sure the fan base knows they tried really hard to keep Barkley with this version of Hard Knocks.
I've thought about this too. The 3D chess move would be for Mara to fall on the sword and look like the boob to those who didn't want to pay Saquon and/or look like the hero who wanted to keep him.
not sure why fans are making a big deal out of Eluemunor being an option at two spots. Didn't we all know this?
yes - i think some are thinking the clues in there are more of an indictment of neal than what they've said publicly (i agree with you, it's more what we suspected all along and they want to give Neal another chance).
Like I said, I will have to go back and re-watch because I know I missed out on some stuff. I may have missed the 2 versus 3 OL thing.
yea i do the same and havent rewatched yet either, pretty sure it was more of a 2/3 thing but they didnt know which 2 they could get and dropped down to eluemeanor once hunt got too expensive.
I have to watch this when others are not in the room because I rewind it to listen to certain scenes again.
RE: RE: OMG with the meddling owner conspiracies.... LOL
"Holy Shit!! The owner of the team has a personal opinion on the players that play on the team that he owns! And he expresses them to his GM! ERMAHGERD!! Oh what a world, what a world! The Nerve!! The Cheek!! The GALL!! Now Schoen is on the hot seat!! THAT'S SO WHY we are still trotting out Daniel Jones!!"
lol
At least you're moving the bar. Just a a few months ago, it was "conspiracy theory" to say John had any significant say in personnel matters.
At least you're making progress.
Not sure what you mean, lol.... but - my Opinion is 1000% that Mara doesn't "meddle" any more than any other owner in the league... lol.
not sure why fans are making a big deal out of Eluemunor being an option at two spots. Didn't we all know this?
Right. After the signing, that was a big talking point - Eluemunor's versatility; and the possibility he could be the solution at RT with Neal's history of injuries and poor play.
I've been thinking more about this. What would have helped the team more? Using money and draft capital to acquire Burns or going for a big upgrade at G with Hunt?
So does anyone think that owners don't express how they feel/think, on every team. Mara express himself than let them make the decision. Do you think guys like Jones and Kraft aren't expressing themselves ? I think may just think or want to think Mara is micromanaging. This Hard knocks is showing the truth. He says his piece and let's them make the call
So forgive me if this has been mentioned, but I remember someone here posting that Dabol played music when the cameras were around so they couldn’t use his private conversations. Well…. HBO just said nice try, we will just pay the licensing fees and incorporate the music into the show.
HAHAHAHAH - noticed that too. Took it a step further with the poker game. I couldnt pay attention to the conversation, all I could try to figure out was. Did Daboll play Beyonce and thy checkmated him? Or were they able to dub out whatever he played, and played Beyonce song over whatever he played 😆
Then I realized why the Daboll played copywrited music thing was leaked out..HBO set that whole thing up lol
about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Since SB was the "most popular player", I wouldn't put it past co-director/producer Mara to want to make sure the fan base knows they tried really hard to keep Barkley with this version of Hard Knocks.
It's ALMOST like he has a co owener who would know how to orchestrate this for a show too...
"Holy Shit!! The owner of the team has a personal opinion on the players that play on the team that he owns! And he expresses them to his GM! ERMAHGERD!! Oh what a world, what a world! The Nerve!! The Cheek!! The GALL!! Now Schoen is on the hot seat!! THAT'S SO WHY we are still trotting out Daniel Jones!!"
lol
At least you're moving the bar. Just a a few months ago, it was "conspiracy theory" to say John had any significant say in personnel matters.
At least you're making progress.
i dont think anyone is moving any bars, have we seen 1 thing from mara different than what he's said publicly?
has he not said publicly 100x he wanted barkley to be a giant for life but that it was the GMs decision? same as he has always been supportive of jones despite the 5yo being declined and the team pursuing Maye/Daniels a couple months ago?
is the internal discussion of what re-signing Barkley would have meant for the other signings. You can't give Barkley that money without losing out on other players. Schoen obviously said that, but it was edited out.
That's a really, really good point Eric.
Is the running game as a whole better with Singletary and a better O Line, or Barkley and a lesser O Line?
Obviously, the passing game is better with a better O Line.
1. Bye bye Saquon….thanks for years you gave us, glad you are now gone
2. Schoen is a beast GM….he knew Morgan was a “friend” and they have a relationship to mutually benefit each other in the future. Schoen will probably throw him a bone soon.
3. Not happy Brandon Brown and Rossetti “encouraged” Schoen to reach out and make an offer to Saquon instead of letting him get back after testing the market
4. Dabs disappoints me in not wanting us to be “entertained”:
5. Glad we got Burns, all those OL guys, and Motor…not sure how I feel about Lock
6. Surprised Morgan accepted our offer for Burns. I thought it would have taken both 2s to get the deal done. I thought that is what he would have wanted…not a 2 and 5.
not sure why fans are making a big deal out of Eluemunor being an option at two spots. Didn't we all know this?
Right. After the signing, that was a big talking point - Eluemunor's versatility; and the possibility he could be the solution at RT with Neal's history of injuries and poor play.
I've been thinking more about this. What would have helped the team more? Using money and draft capital to acquire Burns or going for a big upgrade at G with Hunt?
Obviously, we couldn't do both...
It's a tough call. Given that Hunt would have been $10M per year cheaper and would not have cost any draft capital, that would have been my preference.
is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
If your GM can’t tune out an owner’s suggestions, you have the wrong GM. Every GM worries about being fired, but the last thing anyone would want to do is to be fired for doing what they thought the owner wanted. Act on your convictions, and if things don’t work out, so be it.
That said, it is true that we don’t know if Mara acted differently off-camera, but on every decision where he expressed concern with Schoen’s choice, Schoen went with his guy anyway. I don’t see anything that would lead me to believe that Schoen doesn’t have the final say.
Like I said, I will have to go back and re-watch because I know I missed out on some stuff. I may have missed the 2 versus 3 OL thing.
yea i do the same and havent rewatched yet either, pretty sure it was more of a 2/3 thing but they didnt know which 2 they could get and dropped down to eluemeanor once hunt got too expensive.
Have no re-watched but my read was that the plan was all 3 if they could make it work. Once they had to up the offer to Runyon they said it takes that off the table.
They needed 2 IOL added. They wanted to add 2IOL and OT.
I don't know if that was to hedge the injury to Neal or because they wanted 3 new starters.
the eagles are the most aggressive cap manipulator but for context
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
Quote:
They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
Quote:
They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
But the "game breaker" is dependant on the QB. He's not going to break any games if the QB is incapable of getting him the ball
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
Quote:
They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
But the "game breaker" is dependant on the QB. He's not going to break any games if the QB is incapable of getting him the ball
Very true, but now they have the game breaker, they can figure out the QB thing next year, if they need to (a hat tip to the DJFC - I’m not totally ruling out him stepping up his play this year). You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
I didn’t think that would be so difficult to understand.
RE: the eagles are the most aggressive cap manipulator but for context
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
The NFL has to remove adding years beyond the contract length for cap purposes. Barkley signed a 3 year deal…..the entire contract must be used I up in those 3 years….no adding void years.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
But you have no idea what they think of JJM in comparison to Jones (or Penix and Nix for that matter), you just move the goalposts everytime info comes along disproving the faulty narrative you so desperately cling to. It's really quite adorable. Never give up!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
Quote:
They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
But the "game breaker" is dependant on the QB. He's not going to break any games if the QB is incapable of getting him the ball
Very true, but now they have the game breaker, they can figure out the QB thing next year, if they need to (a hat tip to the DJFC - I’m not totally ruling out him stepping up his play this year). You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
I didn’t think that would be so difficult to understand.
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
RE: RE: the eagles are the most aggressive cap manipulator but for context
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
The NFL has to remove adding years beyond the contract length for cap purposes. Barkley signed a 3 year deal…..the entire contract must be used I up in those 3 years….no adding void years.
why? i think the way philly did the contract was stupid personally, but who cares?
the giants or any other team could have done the contract the same if they wanted to.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
But you have no idea what they think of JJM in comparison to Jones (or Penix and Nix for that matter), you just move the goalposts everytime info comes along disproving the faulty narrative you so desperately cling to. It's really quite adorable. Never give up!
I'm not the one moving the goalposts. Yes, they MAY think Jones is better than JJM. Happy now? That still changes nothing. My goalposts are firmly in place - you do not take a QB with a high 1st round pick unless you have a conviction on him. A slight upgrade doesn't move the needle, especially when a player is custom-built for your needs.
The only ones here that desperately cling to narratives are those who, like you, have tried to make every utterance of Jones's name on HK a confirmation of their belief in him.
You simply do NOT go looking at trading multiple firsts for an upgrade at the position, especially a slight upgrade!, if you believe in the guy you just signed to a $40M contract.
Do you think the Bengals were investigating trade up options to replace Burrow?
You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
So according to you--with absolutely no evidence to support your contention--Schoen/Daboll didn't have a conviction on JJM, but did perceive him to be a small upgrade over the QB to whom they gave $84M in guaranteed money. That's another way of saying you think Schoen and Daboll are incompetent!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
So according to you--with absolutely no evidence to support your contention--Schoen/Daboll didn't have a conviction on JJM, but did perceive him to be a small upgrade over the QB to whom they gave $84M in guaranteed money. That's another way of saying you think Schoen and Daboll are incompetent!
You are such a tiresome troll. I said "small upgrade" as an example of why they might have any interest in JJM. You may be right, he may not be an upgrade over Jones. I honestly don't give a shit. He wouldn't move the needle one bit.
Meanwhile, you're the genius who thinks they should blow a high 1st rounder even if he's only a slight upgrade. But keep going on parsing my words.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
RE: RE: RE: the eagles are the most aggressive cap manipulator but for context
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
The NFL has to remove adding years beyond the contract length for cap purposes. Barkley signed a 3 year deal…..the entire contract must be used I up in those 3 years….no adding void years.
why? i think the way philly did the contract was stupid personally, but who cares?
the giants or any other team could have done the contract the same if they wanted to.
Because for the next 3 years the Eagles have very little salary cap being used on a guy making 37 million. They did the same, even worse, regarding Hurts. Hurts’ big cap hit is in 2029. That gives them about 4 years to add players because their cap space is not be affected in a big way based on their contracts.
This allows for them to buy many more assets, which puts them at an advantage for the next 3 or so years.
The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
I get that, but Daboll and Schoen are likely thinking that they made the playoffs with Jones before. Fix he defense, the OL, add some weapons, and let's see what he can do. And making the playoffs likely takes them out a draft position to take a top QB, but there are other ways to handle it.
I'm not sure how much rope drafting a QB who likely wouldn't start for most of the season really gives him. They apparently tried like hell to get Maye, I'm sure DC said NFW to trading them the pick, but sorry, attempting to trade a massive haul to get a QB does not scream confidence in your starting QB.
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
Would drafting a quarterback buy Daboll time? Drafting Jones bought Shurmer no time, to say nothing of Frank Reich and Bryce Young.
The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
Would drafting a quarterback buy Daboll time? Drafting Jones bought Shurmer no time, to say nothing of Frank Reich and Bryce Young.
Carolina is next level dysfunction.
As far as PS, I don't see a similarity in their circumstances besides ushering in a new QB had they taken one.
So forgive me if this has been mentioned, but I remember someone here posting that Dabol played music when the cameras were around so they couldn’t use his private conversations. Well…. HBO just said nice try, we will just pay the licensing fees and incorporate the music into the show.
But apparently the trick worked in the 1st episode.
The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
The Schoen I am watching and again I realize it is edited, seems out of his depth. The conversations they were having about FA five minutes before it started seem to be conversations they should have been having months before, especially that conversation with Daboll right before FA startred. With that said, I do realize that this conversation could have been staged etc for the cameras to get some narrative about FA. The thing that strikes me about Schoen is how reactive he seems to be. But again, its hard to know what is genuine and what is not. However, you would have to think the Giants FO is cringing watching this knowing that their players are watching this. Unlike Hard Knocks which usually focus's on bottom of the roster, this process is going to the core elements of our team. I can't imagine these guys like this.
Some of these conversations are clearly had for HBO audience. Funny to think it actually works like, hey what are you thinking about our needs in three hours when free agency starts? WE saw that with the whole --I'm going to make an offer to our new defensive coordinator. Here is what his defense's ranked...
Meanwhile, what we really know about the defensive coordinator is that it was a long process with several candidates being interviewed. Blatantly done for the audience.
The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
The Schoen I am watching and again I realize it is edited, seems out of his depth. The conversations they were having about FA five minutes before it started seem to be conversations they should have been having months before, especially that conversation with Daboll right before FA startred. With that said, I do realize that this conversation could have been staged etc for the cameras to get some narrative about FA. The thing that strikes me about Schoen is how reactive he seems to be. But again, its hard to know what is genuine and what is not. However, you would have to think the Giants FO is cringing watching this knowing that their players are watching this. Unlike Hard Knocks which usually focus's on bottom of the roster, this process is going to the core elements of our team. I can't imagine these guys like this.
Dude, it is a SHOW.. The talk is cleary designed for that episode specifically and was most LIKELY talked ad nauseum before that. Come on.. You think Schoen woke up that day and goes, wait what if we offer Barkley this can we do that- and never had discussed it before...
A lot of it is contrived nonsense but at least it gives a glimpse into the players they were interested in.
Chris Jones, Wilkins, Hunt etc.
The Maranoia stuff is hilarious. The GMs job is to get input from all involved. He should want Mara’s input even if it’s annoying. To expect the guy to not even have an opinion? Cmon now.
That said, as stated above all of these conversations seem manufactured. The real conversations happened sometime else. Or at least I hope so.
The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
The Schoen I am watching and again I realize it is edited, seems out of his depth. The conversations they were having about FA five minutes before it started seem to be conversations they should have been having months before, especially that conversation with Daboll right before FA startred. With that said, I do realize that this conversation could have been staged etc for the cameras to get some narrative about FA. The thing that strikes me about Schoen is how reactive he seems to be. But again, its hard to know what is genuine and what is not. However, you would have to think the Giants FO is cringing watching this knowing that their players are watching this. Unlike Hard Knocks which usually focus's on bottom of the roster, this process is going to the core elements of our team. I can't imagine these guys like this.
Dude, it is a SHOW.. The talk is cleary designed for that episode specifically and was most LIKELY talked ad nauseum before that. Come on.. You think Schoen woke up that day and goes, wait what if we offer Barkley this can we do that- and never had discussed it before...
First, I accounted for the fact that it is a show. Second, as FA is about to hit, do you really want our front office playing Acting 101? FA is an extremely fluid situation that Schoen talks about having to react to. So, either way, the whole thing is so stupid and cringeworthy. Next week, tune in to see how the Giants have no confidence in their franchise QB. The person who allowed this to happen on the NFL side and the team side should have their heads reexamined.
Some of these conversations are clearly had for HBO audience. Funny to think it actually works like, hey what are you thinking about our needs in three hours when free agency starts? WE saw that with the whole --I'm going to make an offer to our new defensive coordinator. Here is what his defense's ranked...
Meanwhile, what we really know about the defensive coordinator is that it was a long process with several candidates being interviewed. Blatantly done for the audience.
Kind of surprised that people wouldn't get that.
Exactly. I thought the session with Schoen and Daboll discussing OL FA’s was pretty clearly restaged. They sounded like a couple of rando BBI’ers at a bar.
It's a show, created for entertainment, with some tidbits on insight into the personalities that make up the Giants FO as a whole. I get that People will watch and see what they want to see, and have it conform to their opinions (me included). But seriously, sans hidden cameras in the walls at Giants HQ, are people truly expecting conversations that are not contrived for the show? Thinking they are going to garner real insight into what goes on behind closed doors where the actual "sausage" is made? I mean holy crap. lol
Hard Knocks: "This is bullshit. We don't have any material on Daboll. The fucker keeps playing his hip hop music over every conversation and runs from us every time he sees a camera."
Hanlon: "Relax. We'll figure something out. We'll get him to play along."
PR team to Daboll: "This is part of your job description. Give us 5 minutes and we'll stage a faux conversation and let you get back to work."
Seemed kinda weird that Mara mozies into Schoen’s offfice instead of summoning him to his. That would’ve made for more interesting viewing, Mara behind a big intimidating desk, and JS on a lower rickety stool. Indicative of who is in charge.
Good chance his office is like a museum of football history, with memorabilia and photos dating back a hundred years (ie the centennial season).
The Maranoia stuff is hilarious. The GMs job is to get input from all involved. He should want Mara’s input even if it’s annoying. To expect the guy to not even have an opinion? Cmon now.
That said, as stated above all of these conversations seem manufactured. The real conversations happened sometime else. Or at least I hope so.
No one should be surprised Mara skulks around and has these interactions with the GM he hired. Totally expected.
To me, the biggest confirmation of this series is Schoen is getting his way with personnel decisions. And managing Mara along the way. If Mara really wanted to keep his "most popular player" Barkley would have signed. It's as simple as that. He loves Barkley and the how he impacts other revenue streams...
I'm pretty sure that is manufactured or staged. Other stuff? Sure.
The Maranoia stuff is hilarious. The GMs job is to get input from all involved. He should want Mara’s input even if it’s annoying. To expect the guy to not even have an opinion? Cmon now.
That said, as stated above all of these conversations seem manufactured. The real conversations happened sometime else. Or at least I hope so.
No one should be surprised Mara skulks around and has these interactions with the GM he hired. Totally expected.
To me, the biggest confirmation of this series is Schoen is getting his way with personnel decisions. And managing Mara along the way. If Mara really wanted to keep his "most popular player" Barkley would have signed. It's as simple as that. He loves Barkley and the how he impacts other revenue streams...
I'm pretty sure that is manufactured or staged. Other stuff? Sure.
💯 agree
And that is comforting to know that JS is getting his way
No one should be surprised Mara skulks around and has these interactions with the GM he hired. Totally expected.
To me, the biggest confirmation of this series is Schoen is getting his way with personnel decisions. And managing Mara along the way. If Mara really wanted to keep his "most popular player" Barkley would have signed. It's as simple as that. He loves Barkley and the how he impacts other revenue streams...
I'm pretty sure that is manufactured or staged. Other stuff? Sure.
Last line should include read, "...not manufactured or staged".
Seemed kinda weird that Mara mozies into Schoen’s offfice instead of summoning him to his. That would’ve made for more interesting viewing, Mara behind a big intimidating desk, and JS on a lower rickety stool. Indicative of who is in charge.
Good chance his office is like a museum of football history, with memorabilia and photos dating back a hundred years (ie the centennial season).
It would be interesting to see Mara's office, I agree. But there isn't anything weird IMO about Mara visiting Schoen in his own office when it's just a conversation, not a formal meeting. If anything, I'd be more surprised to find out that Mara operated in the manner you suggest.
Hard Knocks: "This is bullshit. We don't have any material on Daboll. The fucker keeps playing his hip hop music over every conversation and runs from us every time he sees a camera."
Hanlon: "Relax. We'll figure something out. We'll get him to play along."
PR team to Daboll: "This is part of your job description. Give us 5 minutes and we'll stage a faux conversation and let you get back to work."
"Of course an owner should have input, what would you expect?" get violently ill when Tisch speaks, and I wonder why.
Perhaps my memory is off, but I don't remember much of that. In fact, I remember the opposite where people were calling for Tisch to get more involved.
"Of course an owner should have input, what would you expect?" get violently ill when Tisch speaks, and I wonder why.
Perhaps my memory is off, but I don't remember much of that. In fact, I remember the opposite where people were calling for Tisch to get more involved.
It was more in the past than now but some people really dont like it.
Because for the next 3 years the Eagles have very little salary cap being used on a guy making 37 million. They did the same, even worse, regarding Hurts. Hurts’ big cap hit is in 2029. That gives them about 4 years to add players because their cap space is not be affected in a big way based on their contracts.
This allows for them to buy many more assets, which puts them at an advantage for the next 3 or so years.
and a disadvantageous position after those 3 years when he's on the wrong side of 30, not under contract, and yet still taking up cap space...it's a double edged sword and a risky strategy more generally.
The goal posts have definitely shifted. This has been an ongoing discussion for years with one side insisting Mara did not put his hands on the scale.
That argument is no longer made because of the video evidence.
what is there in video evidence that he hasn't said publicly multiple times? is the thinking he wasnt saying in private what he says publicly?
Eric, all I'm saying is that for months, we had numerous posters on this site saying John Mara did not weigh in on personnel matters in a significant way. It wasn't one or two or three people on this site.
Now we have seen a few times in this series where he uses what I call a passive-aggressive approach on Schoen. In 2024, based on what we've seen so far, it didn't work.
I do question if it did work in 2023 offseason when Jones and Barkley were coming off relatively strong seasons.
I'm not naive enough to project the scripted for-TV version of any of these guys completely on their real life qualities. But the character played by John Mara is fucking annoying.
He's shuffling around in his half zip and Skethcers, mumbling inaudibly and quipping about silly stuff.
I'm not naive enough to project the scripted for-TV version of any of these guys completely on their real life qualities. But the character played by John Mara is fucking annoying.
He's shuffling around in his half zip and Skethcers, mumbling inaudibly and quipping about silly stuff.
Write that guy off the show please.
LOL
Cowherd criticizing Schoen for not respecting Mara
1. Bye bye Saquon….thanks for years you gave us, glad you are now gone
2. Schoen is a beast GM….he knew Morgan was a “friend” and they have a relationship to mutually benefit each other in the future. Schoen will probably throw him a bone soon.
3. Not happy Brandon Brown and Rossetti “encouraged” Schoen to reach out and make an offer to Saquon instead of letting him get back after testing the market
4. Dabs disappoints me in not wanting us to be “entertained”:
5. Glad we got Burns, all those OL guys, and Motor…not sure how I feel about Lock
6. Surprised Morgan accepted our offer for Burns. I thought it would have taken both 2s to get the deal done. I thought that is what he would have wanted…not a 2 and 5.
I didn't see what Brown and Rossetti suggested as unreasonable. I really wish we'd seen the deliberations between Brown and Schoen when they decided that the price tag was too high for Barkley.
On #6 - I can't help but wonder how Panthers fans feel about that trade after watching that episode. Although for all we know, the owner told Morgan to trade Burns and he didn't have real leverage in the negotiations with Schoen.
Also - what actual value does Tim McDonnell provide? I have yet to hear him contribute anything insightful and they keep showing him in these meetings, and he's useless. Oh, except where he provided stats about Burns' sacks compared to the other draft classes, which any 12 year old with Internet access could have done. A better point might have been how well he did in spite of how lousy the Panthers teams were.
Mara's comment about Barkley being the 'most popular player' was inane. Fortunately Schoen and Brown don't let sentiment get in the way of good decision making. At least, not in this past offseason.
It may have been said elsewhere, but I also find it encouraging that Schoen works with Brown to make these decisions. I had the sense that Gettleman just did whatever he wanted and didn't ask anyone for an opinion, or if he did, he ignored it. I also don't see how Brown isn't hired by another front office as a GM within the next few years. He's really impressive. No wonder the Eagles were so mad he got away.
RE: Cowherd criticizing Schoen for not respecting Mara
as many suspected, Tim McDonnell is not coming off particularly well. He was already behind the 8-ball due to his revealed texts with the Patriots.
1,000%. I keep hoping the beat writers will come away from these episodes wondering why he has the position he does. And asking questions about him. He reminds me of that useless family member in Casino that drove DeNiro crazy. I wonder if Schoen/Brown see him that same way.
Cowherd doesn't seem to realize that the Giants are also owned by Tisch. Who, in my opinion, told Mara he had to hire a GM from the outside and respect his decision making. And is smart enough not to look like a bumbling idiot on screen.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
Quote:
They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
Exactly right Milton! I think the Giants still believe they can win with Jones if they give him a supporting cast. I think they think he had "no chance" last year and most likely discount it. I also think they are very concerned about his injury history and don't see him as a TOP LEVEL QB.
Therfore you look at options to trade up if it is possible to get a QB who can be TOP LEVEL. Otherwise you roll with Jones and get him OL and better weapons. I believe they still think he can be successful, but are looking to hedge their bets.
The goal posts have definitely shifted. This has been an ongoing discussion for years with one side insisting Mara did not put his hands on the scale.
That argument is no longer made because of the video evidence.
what is there in video evidence that he hasn't said publicly multiple times? is the thinking he wasnt saying in private what he says publicly?
Eric, all I'm saying is that for months, we had numerous posters on this site saying John Mara did not weigh in on personnel matters in a significant way. It wasn't one or two or three people on this site.
were those people denying that john mara was making comments like this publicly or just not paying attention?
Mar 28, 2022 "We're not shopping Saquon, but Joe's the general manager," Mara told reporters, per Pat Leonard of the NY Daily News. "If he and the head coach want to make a personnel decision and have a conviction about it, I'm not gonna interfere with it. But that's not something we're actively looking to do, let's put it that way."
3/27/2023, John Mara wants Saquon Barkley to be Giant for life, but no long-term offer is on table
'I told Saquon we want him to be a Giant for his entire career'
Mar. 27, 2023 = John Mara’s message to Giants’ Saquon Barkley: We want you back — but you’re not going to break the bank
3/24/24 = Giants’ John Mara ‘sick’ about losing Saquon Barkley
mara has been saying all the same things he said on HK re barkley publicly for the last 2+ years.
what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
Again, making an argument that isn’t there.
Meddling doesn’t mean Mara gets his way on everything or even at all (as I said in previous posts).
If you actually read my posts instead of jumping for a fight you’d realize I said Mara voicing his opinion isn’t the bad part, it’s that the context and thought process of his opinions are bad.
The Mara bit on Saquon being the most popular Giant…
I just can’t with John.
You just can’t what? Lol
He’s speaking from an owner’s perspective. Do you not think Saquon was the most popular Giant before he left? Do you think there’s a single owner in the sport who wouldn’t have the same thoughts as Mara when it comes to a fan favorite?
He allowed Schoen to let him walk without us even making a formal offer. What else matters?
RE: RE: RE: Cowherd criticizing Schoen for not respecting Mara
Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
Right.
Cowherd is one of the biggest phonies in sports talk. And that is saying a lot.
For example, if Schoen re-signed SB and SB hit that inflexion point where his production curve nosedived, he would be first in line to criticize Schoen for making a big deal for a RB.
Schoen was handed the keys to run all football operations. Mara said it was important to let Schoen make those decisions. Based on the Gettleman era, I was very skeptical.
But I've seen enough evidence from his start date that Schoen is indeed swinging the final gavel. And a big part of his job is getting Mara comfortable with his final decisions.
Which is why I divert from many of my friends on this board that this is Schoen's team and he's not being strongarmed by Mara.
More time will tell if my assessment is correct...
winning organizations tend to be focused and working in lock step
Owner + GM/head of football ops + Head coach + QB.
The Giants are not operating in lockstep. Schoen and Daboll are for the most part. But there's clearly something missing with Schoen and ownership and Daboll and Jones.
Based on how Schoen is being positioned and highlighted, I can see him losing a lot of power depending on the next head coach.
I propose a by-law that the CEO doesn't get to have a favorite player unless that player contributed to a Super Bowl win. That way I at least get something out of it.
RE: RE: RE: It’s also not about Mara having an opinion
winning organizations tend to be focused and working in lock step
Owner + GM/head of football ops + Head coach + QB.
The Giants are not operating in lockstep. Schoen and Daboll are for the most part. But there's clearly something missing with Schoen and ownership and Daboll and Jones.
Based on how Schoen is being positioned and highlighted, I can see him losing a lot of power depending on the next head coach.
Mara is not the only owner of this team. And to me, the most successful football organizations are ones where the owner lets the professionals make the decisions. Somehow I don't think Biscotti is whining to DeCosta about personnel decisions he makes for the Ravens.
I propose a by-law that the CEO doesn't get to have a favorite player unless that player contributed to a Super Bowl win. That way I at least get something out of it.
It's very disappoint not seeing you in this thread, btw... DSFC - ( New Window )
what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
Again, making an argument that isn’t there.
Meddling doesn’t mean Mara gets his way on everything or even at all (as I said in previous posts).
If you actually read my posts instead of jumping for a fight you’d realize I said Mara voicing his opinion isn’t the bad part, it’s that the context and thought process of his opinions are bad.
that's fair but would we ever expect that to not be true of any owner?
the guys who make enough money to buy/own teams aren't likely to have done so bc of football acumen and there are endless examples of other acumen's not translating (snyder, tepper, etc). im pretty sure the best anyone can hope for of an owner is that they give their GM the autonomy that schoen clearly has.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It may be contrived for TV
what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
Again, making an argument that isn’t there.
Meddling doesn’t mean Mara gets his way on everything or even at all (as I said in previous posts).
If you actually read my posts instead of jumping for a fight you’d realize I said Mara voicing his opinion isn’t the bad part, it’s that the context and thought process of his opinions are bad.
that's fair but would we ever expect that to not be true of any owner?
the guys who make enough money to buy/own teams aren't likely to have done so bc of football acumen and there are endless examples of other acumen's not translating (snyder, tepper, etc). im pretty sure the best anyone can hope for of an owner is that they give their GM the autonomy that schoen clearly has.
It’s the context of his actual opinions that are troubling. They’re not rooted in wining, they’re rooted in feelings and what the fans will think.
the context of most owners opinions is usually worse than fan's feelings. certainly was for the snyders, wilpons, dolans, woody johnsons, jerry jones, charles wangs, maybe even hal steinbrenner at this point. those feelings can run the gamut anywhere from micromanaging egomaniacs, to flagrantly cheap, to rotten to the core illegal.
also who is to say that's exclusively where mara's feelings come from? is it possible he thinks barkley can help them win? id imagine that's what howie roseman and jeffrey lurie believe.
You don’t think Cowboy fans aren’t annoyed with Jerry Jones? They’re probably more annoyed than Giants fans are with Mara. How other owners operate isn’t relevant to the Giants.
There’s plenty of evidence to suggest that Mara doesn’t realize what it takes to turn around this franchise.
Reversing course on the Eli benching because of the fan outrage, and not moving on from Eli that offseason.
The way he’s spoken about Saqoun. Hanging on to Coughlin too long.
There’s more evidence to suggest that is where John’s feelings are coming from than not. Did he not mention the fans and jersey sales in the clip?
You don’t think Cowboy fans aren’t annoyed with Jerry Jones? They’re probably more annoyed than Giants fans are with Mara. How other owners operate isn’t relevant to the Giants.
Cowboy fans hate Jerry Jones with the fire of a thousand suns as they should since his ego blew up a real dynasty and has held them back for 3+ decades since and counting. Panther fans feel the same about Tepper, just a few years after he was the next great hope. If Jet fans knew half of how Woody Johnson runs the Jets they'd spontaneously combust. Aaron Rodgers almost did.
I disagree that how other owners operate isn't relevant because that's the competitive set. Nobody gets to choose to fire the owner just like most people don't get to choose to fire their boss. All you can do is accept either situation or choose the freedom to move on. On the scale of owners Mara is probably average or above average and i can accept that bc no owner is winning a ring, it's the people they hire. If Schoen/Daboll are the goods the team will win. The complaints about him are so minor compared to what the real crappy owners do, which is first and foremost drive away anyone with any talent as jerry jones did with jimmy johnson. i dont understand anyone who has rooted for the other NY teams and experienced what its like with a wilpon/dolan owned team to not appreciate that at the least mara isnt even in that universe. but i guess there's a subset of mets fans that moronically complain about Steve Cohen so people can complain about anything.
RE: RE: We’re talking about John Mara not James Dolan
Nobody gets to choose to fire the owner just like most people don't get to choose to fire their boss. All you can do is accept either situation or choose the freedom to move on.
I literally that in multiple posts. You’re once again arguing with ghosts.
It’s a message board, we can discuss the episode of a TV show and what occurred on the TV show. You can accept the situation or choose the freedom to move on.
winning organizations tend to be focused and working in lock step
Owner + GM/head of football ops + Head coach + QB.
The Giants are not operating in lockstep. Schoen and Daboll are for the most part. But there's clearly something missing with Schoen and ownership and Daboll and Jones.
Based on how Schoen is being positioned and highlighted, I can see him losing a lot of power depending on the next head coach.
Lock step? Every organization has discussions about the team. You don't want a bunch of pollyannas, so they are in lockstep. I want varying views and opinions so that a more informed decision can be made.
You make it sound like John Mara should say Barkley is our favorite player and Joe schoen should agree and pay him. Everyone sings kumbaya.
The lockstep is in being able to voice different opinions and thoughts and yet supporting the guy who ultimately makes the decision.
John Mara has not publicly or any other way criticized Joe schoen for his decisions or undermined him in anyway.
that Schoen/Daboll were indeed eager to move on from Jones. And were very disappointed when they couldn't execute the trade with the Pats.
It will then be interesting if the series shows how Schoen smooths things over with Team Jones.
Schoen knew he was being recorded. He didn’t sugarcoat what he said for a reason. JS wants DJ to know that he’s an albatross around the teams next if he doesn’t perform and he’s gonna know exactly where he stands. If he didn’t already. I could be wrong.
Nobody gets to choose to fire the owner just like most people don't get to choose to fire their boss. All you can do is accept either situation or choose the freedom to move on.
I literally that in multiple posts. You’re once again arguing with ghosts.
It’s a message board, we can discuss the episode of a TV show and what occurred on the TV show. You can accept the situation or choose the freedom to move on.
respectfully im pretty sure the ghost chasing is being done by those trying to read into comments that are no different than public comments mara has made 100x. comments he has always conditioned that his gm has the autonomy to feel differently - exactly as has happened often since schoen got hired.
that Schoen/Daboll were indeed eager to move on from Jones. And were very disappointed when they couldn't execute the trade with the Pats.
It will then be interesting if the series shows how Schoen smooths things over with Team Jones.
Schoen knew he was being recorded. He didn’t sugarcoat what he said for a reason. JS wants DJ to know that he’s an albatross around the teams next if he doesn’t perform and he’s gonna know exactly where he stands. If he didn’t already. I could be wrong.
The fact that he is the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year is probably not enough of a clue for DJ to understand that he needs to elevate the offense this year if the team is to have a successful season. DJ's biggest problem after all has always been his inability to process things quickly. So good job by Joe Schoen in making this clear on HardKnocks!
I give Schaboll credit for recognizing they need to upgrade quarterback. But bad marks for the previous commitment.
I really like Daboll. I like his arrogance, his grumpiness, his salt of the earth vibe. I think he thinks he can coach anybody up...but would certainly prefer a real talent.
He seems 100% more genuine than his predecessor Joe Cliche.
But the discussion of meddling often misses the most important points and focuses on dumb ones.
It doesn’t matter the extent other owners are involved or if they should be. It’s unreasonable to expect any owner would not have influence on their multi-billion dollar baby.
But it would also be unreasonable to suggest that the Mara’s do not care about their perception. As we've seen them try hard to downplay their involvement. The sad thing is that we are seeing the sanitized version on Hard Knocks given that.
The only important thing is the dark matter. We cannot see it any more than we can see John Mara banging the gavel on dumb choices. But we can see what their forces exert on their surroundings.
While the argument that Mara is calling the shots is dumb. It is insane to suggest that it was on the table for JS to let Jones really test the market and perhaps leave. And that exerted a force on the negotiations that took away JS’s leverage. Hard to say it didn’t when team Jones had an ask of $50M with his resume. Any other team doesn't counter, they laugh, and laugh.
That is what makes us laughed at, why players on other teams speak up. Beyond committing to Jones we got swindled by a guy that wouldn't start for most teams. While we took a hard negotiating line with a player that starts for most teams. Even KT said this. How many people in the locker room felt the same?
The same emotionally heavy decision making we have seen on their best behavior in Hard Knocks fits into a nice horizon. The force that the Mara's exert makes us one of the worst teams in the league, accross various GMs and coaches the mark of that force is clear.
Muddle in the meddling semantics all you want. It comes down to if you want to let the Mara's convice you to downplay their involvement and impact. Tell you this regime is different and look at how they redid all the technology in the draft room! They have figured it out!
Or you are willing to sit in the uncomfortable truth that we are a low ceiling team?
As long as they keep selling enough of you on that next coach, that next GM turning it around! He's learned his lesson! He will be hands off! Daboll is the best coach we've had since TC by far. And this is heading in a direction that we lose him. Sad.
P.S. Tim looks worse, I shudder to think that we'd actually be worse off without John.
"If your GM doesn't have the backbone to not give in to the owner, he wasn't the right guy anyway."
I agree with this sentiment, but *if* you believe this you also have to acknowledge that that effectively makes this job more difficult than it has to be.
That makes it difficult for an outsider to come into this building and have success, and one of the Giants' biggest failures in the past decade is insistence on being a closed bubble of insiders and friends 'n family.
It creates an added layer of difficulty for an already difficult job. A rookie GM is now not just having to learn the job but also how to navigate the maze of managing personalities that are supposed to be allies.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
So according to you--with absolutely no evidence to support your contention--Schoen/Daboll didn't have a conviction on JJM, but did perceive him to be a small upgrade over the QB to whom they gave $84M in guaranteed money. That's another way of saying you think Schoen and Daboll are incompetent!
Schoen: “Would you trade up for Daniels?” Daboll: “Absolutely.” But they weren’t looking for a QB.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Speaking of moving goal posts, didn't you argue last week that the Giants' interest in QBs was all a ruse to get Nabers to fall to them? Now you're arguing that the Giants did have interest in trading up because they viewed one of the tops guys as a Mahomes level talent?
The Mara bit on Saquon being the most popular Giant…
I just can’t with John.
You just can’t what? Lol
He’s speaking from an owner’s perspective. Do you not think Saquon was the most popular Giant before he left? Do you think there’s a single owner in the sport who wouldn’t have the same thoughts as Mara when it comes to a fan favorite?
He allowed Schoen to let him walk without us even making a formal offer. What else matters?
The fact that John is bemoaning letting him walk because he's a 'fan favorite'...WTF are we doing? I get he sells merch, but I'd rather Mara focus on winning.
A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
episode. Very interesting to see how the office works. These episodes fly by.
It is my humble opinion that Joe Schoen virtually runs everything his way. The meetings are in his office and even the owners come to his office. Even when JM comes in to briefly give his opinion, he walks away after Joe gives his. It is clear to me that JM does not know enough to meddle effectively. Someone posted that they were not impressed with his "presence". I agree he appears to be too timid to be a CEO.
Of course the way the show is produced it may be done to show Schoen as the real power in the org.
It was interesting the way they divided up the FA money and how having to up the ante on each player eliminated other player(s) from being signed. (Runyon, Eleumenor and losing Hunt). I was especially surprised that Runyon at guard received more money than Eleumenor and that was what was predicted from the beginning.
Burns is a pretty impressive physical guy. Seemed to dwarf everyone. I like how Schoen told Bowen that Burns was all he was getting during FA.
I also enjoy reading everyone's POVs. Some very insightful points.
I would be pretty optimistic on the season if they had been able to land one of their preferred QBs.
A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
A spy?
So silly….yea….I’m sure he he revealing super secret information that they won’t share with Mara
If John Mara had a good track record of hiring successful people, and exhibited a command of team building and courage when facing tough decisions, his involvement wouldn't be controversial.
Mara's involvement is controversial because he's sucked at hiring people and says stupid shit regularly.
If John Mara had a good track record of hiring successful people, and exhibited a command of team building and courage when facing tough decisions, his involvement wouldn't be controversial.
Mara's involvement is controversial because he's sucked at hiring people and says stupid shit regularly.
Garafolo seems to have a pretty tight relationship with Schoen; what he was reporting was pretty much what we saw behind the scenes. So remember that next time Mike says this is what he is hearing regarding Giants news it could be from Schoen.
Also the 'fuck the eagles' line was by the far the best line of the episode.
MG clearly has a source very close to/or is Schoen. I'm glad that is the case, because he's always been very fair to and respectful of the Giants. And every front office needs a trusted reporter they can funnel through.
A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
MG clearly has a source very close to/or is Schoen. I'm glad that is the case, because he's always been very fair to and respectful of the Giants. And every front office needs a trusted reporter they can funnel through.
Also interesting that MG reported that he expected NYG to trade up for a QB around the combine.
Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
Look, that's fine with me. Because when the dust settled and smoke cleared, Schoen clearly had the final call. And Mara accepted it, albeit crestfallen.
Mara looks like a very nice man, but he had no leadership presence at all. Having worked for three Fortune 100 companies (two in the top ten), it's pretty easy to spot someone who is not C-suite material. And Mara doesn't. I worked for Dave Wichmann, former CEO for UNH, when he was running the M&A department, and that guy commanded a room when he walked into it. People wanted to hitch their wagons to the guy and follow his lead.
I'd be curious what the cadence was with the Bills and what Schoen was exposed to working for Beane who worked for Terry Pegula, the owner and self-made billionaire. And how that experience may have helped him manage someone like Mara...
At the time of the combine, Garafolo said there was a better than 75% chance of the Giants drafting a first round QB. Somewhat jokingly, he called it a 76.9% chance.
And he said Giants had discussed trading up to the top 3 spots. He didn't directly say they were likely to trade up to get their first round QB.
In April, MG said the Giants would only trade up for Drake Maye, and it would only happen if Maye somehow fell to the number 4 spot. See link.
MG was living in the real world when he said this. He recognized that the top 3 teams were not trading out.
Were the Giants living in the same real world? My view of the Drew Lock signing, which was two weeks after the combine, is that the Giants knew trading into the top 3 to get the QB they wanted was a very long shot, at best.
Were the Giants living in the same real world? My view of the Drew Lock signing, which was two weeks after the combine, is that the Giants knew trading into the top 3 to get the QB they wanted was a very long shot, at best. nfl.com - ( New Window )
If you believe Rico is a reliable BBI Insider, the framework of a deal to move into the third spot was in place on draft day with New England. It sounded very much like the deal was near the finish line.
Whether Wolt got cold feet or was bluffing, or Schoen wouldn't add another piece to close the deal, the deal collapsed right before or shortly after 8pm.
So, it seems like it may have been more than a Hail Mary Idea. Hopefully, we get more info next week.
Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
Right.
Cowherd is one of the biggest phonies in sports talk. And that is saying a lot.
For example, if Schoen re-signed SB and SB hit that inflexion point where his production curve nosedived, he would be first in line to criticize Schoen for making a big deal for a RB.
Schoen was handed the keys to run all football operations. Mara said it was important to let Schoen make those decisions. Based on the Gettleman era, I was very skeptical.
But I've seen enough evidence from his start date that Schoen is indeed swinging the final gavel. And a big part of his job is getting Mara comfortable with his final decisions.
Which is why I divert from many of my friends on this board that this is Schoen's team and he's not being strongarmed by Mara.
More time will tell if my assessment is correct...
In winning organizations everyone shares the same opinion? Have we lost our mind? This is total media nonsense. In successful organizations there is open exchange of ideas on difficult decisions and healthy discussion. Cowherd is a moron.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Cowherd criticizing Schoen for not respecting Mara
Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
Right.
Cowherd is one of the biggest phonies in sports talk. And that is saying a lot.
For example, if Schoen re-signed SB and SB hit that inflexion point where his production curve nosedived, he would be first in line to criticize Schoen for making a big deal for a RB.
Schoen was handed the keys to run all football operations. Mara said it was important to let Schoen make those decisions. Based on the Gettleman era, I was very skeptical.
But I've seen enough evidence from his start date that Schoen is indeed swinging the final gavel. And a big part of his job is getting Mara comfortable with his final decisions.
Which is why I divert from many of my friends on this board that this is Schoen's team and he's not being strongarmed by Mara.
More time will tell if my assessment is correct...
I thought Mara accepted not signing Barkley but was annoyed with the decision.
It better work out or Schoen will be gone .
I give Schaboll credit for recognizing they need to upgrade quarterback. But bad marks for the previous commitment.
I really like Daboll. I like his arrogance, his grumpiness, his salt of the earth vibe. I think he thinks he can coach anybody up...but would certainly prefer a real talent.
He seems 100% more genuine than his predecessor Joe Cliche.
His QB interviews showed he should absolutely be calling the plays this year. And I know it’s only a snippet from next week’s episode but it’s clear that he loves what he sees in Nabers’ tape.
Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
Look, that's fine with me. Because when the dust settled and smoke cleared, Schoen clearly had the final call. And Mara accepted it, albeit crestfallen.
Mara looks like a very nice man, but he had no leadership presence at all. Having worked for three Fortune 100 companies (two in the top ten), it's pretty easy to spot someone who is not C-suite material. And Mara doesn't. I worked for Dave Wichmann, former CEO for UNH, when he was running the M&A department, and that guy commanded a room when he walked into it. People wanted to hitch their wagons to the guy and follow his lead.
I'd be curious what the cadence was with the Bills and what Schoen was exposed to working for Beane who worked for Terry Pegula, the owner and self-made billionaire. And how that experience may have helped him manage someone like Mara...
I agree that Mara does not appear to have the that dominating persona - looked like a doddering old man, frankly.
Yes, Barkley is a revenue generator for the team. But he was also the best offensive player by far. That cannot be po-poed in their view, Mara and McDonnell clinging to run 1st offense. And it also shows that Mara may not believe in DJ's ability to lead the offense by himself.
we are definitely getting a view of how things actually work at Giants central.
Those of you who are taking a dim view of John Mara I think are missing a key point.
Mara has clearly been himself throughout the time he's been running the franchise. It was under his rein that Eli was drafted, Jerry Reese was promoted to GM, Tom Coughlin was hired, and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I find it hard to believe that he was any different then, then he is now.
The real issue is how Jerry Reese lost his grip on the team, because he started out brilliantly, and the caliber of GM's and their decisions that succeeded him.
Clearly when Gettleman was hired the old boy network was in full form, and they may have taken the little snippets that Mara and McDonnell dropped more to heart and felt they had to give in to them periodically. Take the hiring Dave Gettleman, and subsequent hiring of Ben McAdoo and of Joe Judge and his hiring of Jason Garrett. Much was made of Mara's role in these decisions. First you had Ernie Accorsie brought in to assist, and then wink wink nod nod and Gettleman was hired with Abrams a clear successor tapped. Then when Gettleman gets hired McAdoo was promoted when the Eagles showed interest in him. That shows the same time of opinion rendered and effecting the FO's decision. When McAdoo gets booted (which there was a quick exit) It was widely circulated that Mara called Belichick and was told Judge would be better than what you had there before. This was another wink, wink nod, nod hire, and Garrett was a product of Mara telling Judge how much he wouldn't mind having Garrett back in the fold. There was a clear difference in philosophies between Judge and Garrett.
I find it interesting. I perceive that Mara's comments, and McDonnell's comments like we are seeing in the Hard Knocks videos probably had a more outsize impact then they do now.
This is what gives me hope. The current Front Office seems to be much more professional then all that. They clearly accept what Mara says, then they run things through their "process" and make the decisions that the GM thinks are sound. They are managing McDonnell and Mara based on football acumen instead of wink, wink, nod nod. We are hearing things like football studies, stats, data, and in depth personality analysis being used to make football analysis.
Mara has allowed Schoen to surround himself with a lot of strong football intelligence, and he backs down when they tell him they are making football decisions and how they justify it.
So for me the issue is that what really went wrong was the end game of Reese's regime, and the duration of Gettleman's, how seemingly differently things are going now, and how professionally the FO staff was put together and both operates and behaves in my opinion.
That's my take away -- the Giants GM is not operating like a clown ship right now. They are operating like a professional team, with a lot of strong voices and football acumen in the room. They care deeply and are passionate about what they are doing, and they seem competent to me.
They may make mistakes from time to time, but they seem to be able to recover from it, make improvements and move forward. Again this gives me a lot of hope.
I am certainly not concerned that Mara and McDOnnell, does not allow the professional staff to do what they is is best for the team - these three shows we have watched clearly show this.
These aren't hidden cameras. Of course Mara is just going to come off as a concerned owner and nothing more.
What is telling is Schoen does not come off as a sentimental dummy. Quite the opposite. Which is why it's harder to believe there wasn't a thumb on the scale, if not an outright mandate from John, in regards to past personnel decisions. It would jive with John's public comments that indicate that he does have a major say in big decisions.
we are definitely getting a view of how things actually work at Giants central.
Those of you who are taking a dim view of John Mara I think are missing a key point.
Mara has clearly been himself throughout the time he's been running the franchise. It was under his rein that Eli was drafted, Jerry Reese was promoted to GM, Tom Coughlin was hired, and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I find it hard to believe that he was any different then, then he is now.
While John Mara reportedly played a role in convincing his father to sign off on Accorsi's plan to acquire Eli Manning, he was not running the franchise when they made either that decision or the decision to hire Tom Coughlin.
Reese was a logical choice to succeed Accorsi as one of his deputies (and candidate endorsed by him), but I guess I'll give Mara minimal credit for not hiring his brother Chris for the job.
While I would contend that George Young and Accorsi deserve the lion's share of the credit for the Giants four Super Bowl titles, the decision to turn the search for Reese's replacement over to Accorsi is a damning indictment of Mara's ability to run the franchise. It was a complete farce.
Gidiefor: I think you need to review the timeline as you described it.
Who was the CEO and GM who put together the 2007 SB run? Who did the drafting? Who was director of pro personnel? Different cast for the 2011 SB run.
Who put together the teams post 2011 that gave us 10 years of lousy football? Who hired McAdoo? Who fired McAdoo?
The Giants are a family business and have always operated that way. And families have disagreements and power struggles. Fans may wish that this isn’t a family business, but look around at how other teams are structured and which ones have been most successful long term.
Much of the successes you describe were generated by Wellington Mara - not by John Mara. We have a business that has operated for 100 years with the same ownership and has won championships (I believe) in every decade except one (1970s). They have not changed the way they do business except once (1970s). One can claim that the business is too “old school” but that business has had success in each of the past 4 decades. The business has changed and will continue to change but it is hard to argue with the way it has been operated. So the changes are slow in coming.
we are definitely getting a view of how things actually work at Giants central.
Those of you who are taking a dim view of John Mara I think are missing a key point.
Mara has clearly been himself throughout the time he's been running the franchise. It was under his rein that Eli was drafted, Jerry Reese was promoted to GM, Tom Coughlin was hired, and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I find it hard to believe that he was any different then, then he is now.
While John Mara reportedly played a role in convincing his father to sign off on Accorsi's plan to acquire Eli Manning, he was not running the franchise when they made either that decision or the decision to hire Tom Coughlin.
Reese was a logical choice to succeed Accorsi as one of his deputies (and candidate endorsed by him), but I guess I'll give Mara minimal credit for not hiring his brother Chris for the job.
While I would contend that George Young and Accorsi deserve the lion's share of the credit for the Giants four Super Bowl titles, the decision to turn the search for Reese's replacement over to Accorsi is a damning indictment of Mara's ability to run the franchise. It was a complete farce.
the biggest impact mara had was not firing coughlin, which was a non-decision but against the grain.
the reality is i think he knows his odds of finding good football people sucks which is why hes generally been hesitant to fire people.
RE: Gidiefor: I think you need to review the timeline as you described it.
Who was the CEO and GM who put together the 2007 SB run? Who did the drafting? Who was director of pro personnel? Different cast for the 2011 SB run.
Who put together the teams post 2011 that gave us 10 years of lousy football? Who hired McAdoo? Who fired McAdoo?
The Giants are a family business and have always operated that way. And families have disagreements and power struggles. Fans may wish that this isn’t a family business, but look around at how other teams are structured and which ones have been most successful long term.
Much of the successes you describe were generated by Wellington Mara - not by John Mara. We have a business that has operated for 100 years with the same ownership and has won championships (I believe) in every decade except one (1970s). They have not changed the way they do business except once (1970s). One can claim that the business is too “old school” but that business has had success in each of the past 4 decades. The business has changed and will continue to change but it is hard to argue with the way it has been operated. So the changes are slow in coming.
I dispute that Wellington was running the FO - in his final years John Mara was in charge -- Wellington Mara was in decline
A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
That Spy is Wellington Mara's grandson... its a family business its literally asinine to think family isnt going to be involved.
1. burns was basically in the fold before they sent initial offers out at the beginning of UFA window and prior to getting an answer on barkley/with burns they had sent offers out to the 5 targets they mentioned (3 OL, singletary, tyrod). when the price went up on Runyan that's when they said to match they'd no longer have money for Hunt. so i think their plan A was runyan at a number not far from what eluemeanor got + hunt for a few million more than runyan, but obviously the market pushed both higher.
2. i assume the wilkins pursuit was never mentioned because they were already basically set with burns. if they had a salary agreed with burns that means they'd been negotiating at least a few days prior to day of FA.
3. interesting that they sent an offer to singletary before knowing barkley's decision.
4. schoen's "he's their top guy" comment re eluemenor was present tense, so i now think he was referencing bricillo and the pro scouting department and that they graded him as the best T available in FA (not that he was the raiders top guy past tense). the top paid FA OT was conspicuously absent from the show and that is notable because it was Mike Onwenu who also played G/T for Bricillo. Both players had similar grades last year at RT, both players a non-prototypes for T which is why they've also played some guard, it's not impossible bricillo had a slight preference toward elumeanor and it then made no sense to shop for the more expensive player. or maybe they just didnt count Onwenu because NE was clear they were going to bring him back and they had a big deal fairly quickly? either way look at the OT board, only 3 OTs got paid more than eluemeanor so for him to be the "top guy" they only had to like him better than those guys.
eluemeanor is interesting, but damn would it have been nice to slot in Hunt and Runyan. Hunt has almost entirely played RG too so that probably would have meant Runyan at LG.
also interesting jets were interested in runyan since rodgers played with him, the way their org operates right now there is no way that wasnt something he'd weighed in on.
But the discussion of meddling often misses the most important points and focuses on dumb ones.
It doesn’t matter the extent other owners are involved or if they should be. It’s unreasonable to expect any owner would not have influence on their multi-billion dollar baby.
But it would also be unreasonable to suggest that the Mara’s do not care about their perception. As we've seen them try hard to downplay their involvement. The sad thing is that we are seeing the sanitized version on Hard Knocks given that.
The only important thing is the dark matter. We cannot see it any more than we can see John Mara banging the gavel on dumb choices. But we can see what their forces exert on their surroundings.
While the argument that Mara is calling the shots is dumb. It is insane to suggest that it was on the table for JS to let Jones really test the market and perhaps leave. And that exerted a force on the negotiations that took away JS’s leverage. Hard to say it didn’t when team Jones had an ask of $50M with his resume. Any other team doesn't counter, they laugh, and laugh.
That is what makes us laughed at, why players on other teams speak up. Beyond committing to Jones we got swindled by a guy that wouldn't start for most teams. While we took a hard negotiating line with a player that starts for most teams. Even KT said this. How many people in the locker room felt the same?
The same emotionally heavy decision making we have seen on their best behavior in Hard Knocks fits into a nice horizon. The force that the Mara's exert makes us one of the worst teams in the league, accross various GMs and coaches the mark of that force is clear.
Muddle in the meddling semantics all you want. It comes down to if you want to let the Mara's convice you to downplay their involvement and impact. Tell you this regime is different and look at how they redid all the technology in the draft room! They have figured it out!
Or you are willing to sit in the uncomfortable truth that we are a low ceiling team?
As long as they keep selling enough of you on that next coach, that next GM turning it around! He's learned his lesson! He will be hands off! Daboll is the best coach we've had since TC by far. And this is heading in a direction that we lose him. Sad.
P.S. Tim looks worse, I shudder to think that we'd actually be worse off without John.
Agree, I think Mara is trying to downplay the amount he gets involved, but I have a hard time not seeing his involvement in the SB saga, and what is arguably the most head-scratching contract in Giants history. We deserve the ridicule we get for that one.
Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
I think Mara said "he's our most popular player". That was his big concern. That's messed up.
His only concern should be building a winner regardless of whether it includes the "fan favorites". Once they build a winner, there will be plenty of popular guys and fan favorites and that will generate the most revenue.
RE: Not just rodgers, theres a coordinator connection
yeah hackett is a moron though, and while im sure his opinion was involved rodgers has more sway in that org than anyone other than woody. he's changed how woody operates the team in some areas more than douglas or saleh were able to.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
I think Mara said "he's our most popular player". That was his big concern. That's messed up.
His only concern should be building a winner regardless of whether it includes the "fan favorites". Once they build a winner, there will be plenty of popular guys and fan favorites and that will generate the most revenue.
That really stood out for me in E3. And that compounded the old school thinking Mara revealed in E2 when he basically said Barkley was our offense and it's hard for him to imagine losing Barkley.
He loves his 1980s view of the running game, and he loves seeing those #26 jerseys in the crowd for home games.
Now, you have to give the old man some credit. He broke tradition by hiring a GM who had no ties to the Giants Way. So, getting out of that box was a major step for Mara. And it seems to me it's clear he's willing to let Schoen move the Giants into modern football thinking.
At least we've removed on half of the Jones-Barkley Era. It's too bad Schoen couldn't deliver on the other part - numerous times...
RE: so everyone thinks Mara is a dunce for wanting
If they show anything meaningful inside the draft room (they have to show some), it could be a truly fantastic inside look.
There will be discussion about players leading up to the pick--we know they work that way. This will be fascinating to see on camara and what players are discussed/debated. Obviously we hope get some specifics regarding what actually went down on any trade talks (no way do we get a full access look, but there major insights, no doubt).
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: My thoughts from last night
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
I think Mara said "he's our most popular player". That was his big concern. That's messed up.
His only concern should be building a winner regardless of whether it includes the "fan favorites". Once they build a winner, there will be plenty of popular guys and fan favorites and that will generate the most revenue.
That really stood out for me in E3. And that compounded the old school thinking Mara revealed in E2 when he basically said Barkley was our offense and it's hard for him to imagine losing Barkley.
He loves his 1980s view of the running game, and he loves seeing those #26 jerseys in the crowd for home games.
Now, you have to give the old man some credit. He broke tradition by hiring a GM who had no ties to the Giants Way. So, getting out of that box was a major step for Mara. And it seems to me it's clear he's willing to let Schoen move the Giants into modern football thinking.
At least we've removed on half of the Jones-Barkley Era. It's too bad Schoen couldn't deliver on the other part - numerous times...
If they show anything meaningful inside the draft room (they have to show some), it could be a truly fantastic inside look.
There will be discussion about players leading up to the pick--we know they work that way. This will be fascinating to see on camara and what players are discussed/debated. Obviously we hope get some specifics regarding what actually went down on any trade talks (no way do we get a full access look, but there major insights, no doubt).
i think most of the interesting stuff will be trade related.
the talks with NE obviously but also the tease about atlanta possibly offering to trade up. were there any other trade discussions we don't know about? was there someone falling out of round 1 they tried to move up for in round 2?
was when they were talking about Eluemunor. Mentioned that they considered him a potential starter at RT or RG, and that seemed JS' mind about making the deal.
RE: RE: so everyone thinks Mara is a dunce for wanting
to keep Saquon but everyone also likes Brandon Brown and Chris Rossetti and they seemed to want to bring him back as well.
and howie roseman, ryan poles, nick caserio were the ones lined up to pay saquon.
Paying Saquon certainly makes more sense to a team like Philly, that doesn't need him one bit, and that has plenty of extra money.
It does not make sense for the Giants, who had little money to spend, a lot of holes to fill, and spent 6 seasons fielding a bottom 5 offense with Barkley on it.
Sorry I don’t have the time to read through all this
And I just got to watch it
Did it seem like Schoens conversation about matching Saquons offer (12.5/yr 25 gtd) “ans then we have a press conference announcing that he’s staying a giant” was a quick conversation.
And then when he described it to Mara , he made it seem much more equivocal?
Editing?
My misperception?
@art_stapleton
Some will like tonight's Hard Knocks episode best out of the three so far.
I slot it slightly ahead of Episode 1 on a second watch. Episode 2 is still tops for me.
No villains here, imo.
Pretty cut and dried.
@art_stapleton
Welcome back, Giants rookies. Camp begins today for them.
Tonight, it's Episode 3 of Hard Knocks. All free agency, Saquon saga comes to a close + a teaser for next week includes what we all insisted they would not show.
@Giants
Joe Schoen's final negotiations to seal the Brian Burns trade
New episode of #HardKnocks Offseason with the New York Giants airs tonight at 9pm ET on @StreamOnMax
#Giants100
https://x.com/Giants/status/1813247057198485641 - ( New Window )
I hope they cover OTAs and the mini-camp.
It's 5 episodes right? I'm thinking tonight is free agency, next week the draft and maybe the last episode is mini camp?
/nods head
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I'm assuming
It's 5 episodes right? I'm thinking tonight is free agency, next week the draft and maybe the last episode is mini camp?
Thought I read it was 7 episodes
Maybe we’ll also hear what happened in conversations with McKinney.
we came in at same years/same APY/ 1m less gtd dollars than PHI offer.
if thts true - saquon wanted to leave.
1m to stay a giant for life wow. he wanted out and didnt like the relationship.
music going on. It’s fucking distracting.
My bad I missed the part where Rossetti said or starting LG
I like the guy and I can’t listen anymore.
Shut the fuck up and sign the checks ffs
we came in at same years/same APY/ 1m less gtd dollars than PHI offer.
if thts true - saquon wanted to leave.
1m to stay a giant for life wow. he wanted out and didnt like the relationship.
well this theory is blown out of the water
He's insufferable at this point.
Not necessarily. It looked like they were just going through who they would and would not trade up for. I guarantee you they have the same convo about maye and caleb
The way this is being depicted w/Barkley, it's like we're losing LT.
So what exactly are you referencing? The fact that an owner was lamenting the loss of his best player to a division rival?
Not exactly earth shattering stuff.
I feel really good about this teams front office. Couldn’t be more impressed with Schoen.
Was never really bought into the Mara conspiracy but the tension he brings when he comes into the room is palatable. Like a disgruntled parent. Nice to see Joe stand his ground.
Funny stuff about Schoen's stress levels, he was really sweating the Burns deal.
Love that they got all their targeted players. Think the circus has left town.
The Giants weren't going to settle for McCarthy based on their evaluation. Daniels was a pipe dream. It was Williams/Daniels/Maye.
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I truly understand why the last ten years happened.
So what exactly are you referencing? The fact that an owner was lamenting the loss of his best player to a division rival?
Not exactly earth shattering stuff.
The *reasoning*. How he explained his point. The guiding light there can't be "He's our most popular player by far". There's little to no sobriety about how bad they've been *with* him.
Right tackle was said first lol
Not unless they were under the assumption that the Commanders were not taking him at #2. Whole heartedly believe it was Maye - we'll see.
John Mara, Esq, speaking about Barkley.
What does that tell you about this idiot?
John Mara, Esq, speaking about Barkley.
What does that tell you about this idiot?
There's no hiding it now.
John Mara, Esq, speaking about Barkley.
What does that tell you about this idiot?
It certainly adds a ton of context around what Schoen had to deal with after the success of 2022. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge Mara hovering around these decisions is being unfair.
John Mara, Esq, speaking about Barkley.
What does that tell you about this idiot?
It tells me:
1. He was disappointed to lose the most popular player on the team.
2. He is allowing Schoen to make decisions that he would not normally do....that's the sign of a good owner. We've all been screaming to "...let the football people make football decisions." Well, here it is.
John Mara, Esq, speaking about Barkley.
What does that tell you about this idiot?
You can’t watch this and come away with any other conclusion than John Mara is an impediment to winning that Schoen and Co. simply have to try and navigate around.
I would love to hear him talk about losing sleep because the team has been a doormat for the last decade instead of “we’re losing our most popular player.”
Interesting that they teased that Daboll was on board trading up for Jayden Daniels. It seems like they wanted to get to #3 because they were good with either Maye or Daniels. Also interesting that is comes across as “We’ll try to get a QB, but if we can’t we’ll roll with Daniel.” I feel better about Schoen after this episode in that it seems he is ok moving on from Barkely but also Jones.
Quote:
by far..."
John Mara, Esq, speaking about Barkley.
What does that tell you about this idiot?
It certainly adds a ton of context around what Schoen had to deal with after the success of 2022. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge Mara hovering around these decisions is being unfair.
Schoen even said to Barkley's agent that this one could be above me. I'm glad Mara didn't force it and make the FO get him back at all costs.
Now, we know NYG controls the content of his series, but so far, I have seen absolutely nothing to remotely suggest that Mara is putting his thumb on the personnel scale anymore.
This IS Schoen's team.
Now imagine that guy shuffling around the halls when things aren't going well.
That's the problem.
Quote:
in the end, Schoen got his way.
Now, we know NYG controls the content of his series, but so far, I have seen absolutely nothing to remotely suggest that Mara is putting his thumb on the personnel scale anymore.
This IS Schoen's team.
He's throwing around opinions. If he's saying this about Barkley after a 6-11 season, imagine what he was saying after 2022 and declaring the Giants "back"?
Quote:
by far..."
John Mara, Esq, speaking about Barkley.
What does that tell you about this idiot?
It certainly adds a ton of context around what Schoen had to deal with after the success of 2022. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge Mara hovering around these decisions is being unfair.
I'm sure Schoen feels the weight of a sentimental owner who has become clueless about modern football, but he looks like he's able to navigate around that and get his outcome...
I can’t see Schoen firing Daboll. Even if things go south this year. Daboll is his guy.
And I’m good with that.
Not excusing Schoen, but I'm sure Mara had strong opinions on Jones & Barkley last year.
Now imagine that guy shuffling around the halls when things aren't going well.
That's the problem.
In retrospect, this suggests to me that Gettleman was either unable or unwilling to manage Mara to move this team forward.
2) Daboll wants a QB improvement asap.
Having the Giants on Hard Knocks is like crack. I feel like I need a live feed in to Schoens office.
Ultimately, McDonnell may be more dangerous than Mara since he doesnt appear to have the self awareness and believes he’s earned the right lead the franchise.
It’s clear managing up is part of Schoen’s job, but that’s not unusual in any org. He’s letting Schoen make the decisions.
If Mara got involved at all regarding the walk away price, or applied any subtle pressure on Schoen to match the Philly offer, they didn’t show it
That aside, cool scenes showing Schoen sweating the Burns trade, then holding firm by refusing to add an extra pick
They’ve mostly overlooked McKinney - just hinted the Giants weren’t going to come anywhere near what GB paid him.
Now, that would have been an epic Hard Knocks...
I had to rewind a couple times but it sounded like "I think we will be, too."
Having the Giants on Hard Knocks is like crack. I feel like I need a live feed in to Schoens office.
This was perhaps the one big reveal I took from this episode. Behind the scenes they clearly think this guy is their new starting RT. What they have said publicly has seemed like backup or possibly OG, but that just isn’t the case. I for sure think they are not counting on Neal, he is going to truly have to win the job. And he should. Scholarships are over it’s year 3. Put up or shut up, Neal’s days are numbered. I’m gonna root like hell for him, but I’m happy they made moves to replace what is looking like a bust of a pick.
Episode 2 was the best so far IMO, but going back to the draft again next episode I think next weeks can be the best so far as we get a deeper dive into all the evaluations and players we took. The clip of Daboll claiming Daniels was absolutely worth it if they could land him is certainly interesting.
And I do agree that Mara needs to manage Mara, that will need to be a learned skill. I also would assume the majority of owners would provide an opinion on QB and most popular player. I don't think Mara is on an island there. I'm glad Schoen stood his ground.
It's also very clear to me Jones is a placeholder.
They then keep showing their targets at OL. Runyon, Hunt and Eluemanor. Not on,y did they get two of he three. But the quote constantly mentioned throughout this thread is the “he will play art, or LG”
How is everyone glossing over the fact. That they went into FA target two Guards, and a RT…. That was by far the most telling thing to me about this episode. What they really think of Neal!!!
They then keep showing their targets at OL. Runyon, Hunt and Eluemanor. Not on,y did they get two of he three. But the quote constantly mentioned throughout this thread is the “he will play art, or LG”
How is everyone glossing over the fact. That they went into FA target two Guards, and a RT…. That was by far the most telling thing to me about this episode. What they really think of Neal!!!
Yes, they don’t have any faith in him. I think it’s Elemeanuer’s job to lose. Nelson’s gonna have to win a spot by proving he can protect the QB.
music going on. It’s fucking distracting.
Daboll was trying to keep HBO from being able to use the footage. He said he would play copyrighted music so HBO wouldn't be able to use the footage without paying for the rights.
I guess HBO said, "screw it, let's pay for the rights. We want this scene." Hilarious.
How many people don’t have to manage their bosses when you want to get something done that they are unsure about or playing devil’s advocate.
Turned out Neal’s ankle injury last season was worse than we were led to believe, and part of it is they’re not 100% he’ll be ready after surgery.
Or even if he is, spending the offseason rehabbing it means his choppy footwork is no sure thing to improve
Quote:
music going on. It’s fucking distracting.
Daboll was trying to keep HBO from being able to use the footage. He said he would play copyrighted music so HBO wouldn't be able to use the footage without paying for the rights.
I guess HBO said, "screw it, let's pay for the rights. We want this scene." Hilarious.
Came to say this, Dabes did it on purpose. He said that was his plan at the Giants event at MSG. He made HBO open their pocketbooks because then content was so good.
"THIS MAY BE ABOVE ME." Was his quote.
I paused at this moment, does he mean the price is too high? or does he mean Mara "ie management above him" needs to be in on the final decision.
Well, it almost wasn’t…. They targeted two guards a tackle. That to me was by far the most telling thing in the episode.
More so than SB decided he wanted to be an Eagle more than in the Ring of Honor
2) Daboll wants a QB improvement asap.
This is completely correct.
Quote:
1) Mara is a meddler, despite how hard some on here try to dispute that. Schoen has little give when it comes to Mara (at least this offseason).
This is completely correct.
Listen there's no doubt Mara was giving a lot of input on Saquon. That was a unique personell decision stretched out over 2 off seasons in that he was the biggest name and "face of the franchise". Most owners are going to give input on that unique circumstance. If Mara was in Schoen's ear over Eluemunor or Runyan I'd be more concerned.
It would be one thing if Mara owned the team himself. But he's representing several Maras and Tisches; I think he has the obligation to at least make Schoen aware that there's a financial component to the decision.
I'm happy he let Schoen pass on Saquon.
I also do believe he's too involved, but I'm not quite sure that this particular decision is fully representative of that.
I replayed this 5 times and still couldn't understand what Mara said after he left Schoen's office. And closed caption didn't get it either.
Managing your boss is always the part of any gig
I again came away with positive impressions of Schoen, Burns and most of his staff.
John Mara comes in and acts like he’s the janitor BSing with the GM. Mara should worry about the next medium Pepsi deal and stay out of the football business.
Schoen is clearly walking a tight rope between trying to build the best roster while dealing with a boss born on third base believing he hit a triple.
we all knew mike g was well sourced but clips of him on nfl network accurately reporting on joe schoen's nervous system during FA negotiations were a whole different level.
to those that seem to think nfl ops are run like blind trusts, can you name an nfl team that actually runs that way?
notice morgan took a day to get back to schoen from his conversation with tepper? and every owner is in every draft room? what owner/ceo of what type of 6 billion $ entertainment business do you expect to not have an opinion when it comes to big public facing decisions?
2. Free Agency is not as black and white as some of us fans make it out to be. There is a lot the org can’t control - and ultimately it comes down to the player deciding what he wants. There was a plan, but at the end of the day the team is just trying to get the best players they can with what they have available.
3. Mara is meddling, but ultimately deferring to Schoen and co
4. Motor was a Daboll move through and through
5. Based on the teaser, QB trade up was the #1 priority on the draft - Dabes seems to be the driving force behind it.
6. Don’t think they had any intention of paying McKinney…haven’t heard much about him.
7. Where is Kafka
8. They seem to be very high on Eluemunor - Schoen kept referring to him as their #1 guy.
7. Where is Kafka
8. They seem to be very high on Eluemunor - Schoen kept referring to him as their #1 guy.
The Kafka stuff is definitely bizarre. Like give the guy a vanity scene or two like Bowen. We've basically only heard bowen say 'pass rush' but at least he's present.
I think Schoen's comment about Eluemunor was that "he was their top guy" which i took to mean the Raiders, which he'd probably know bc of Bricillo, and had to be the guy pushing for him in the first place. that doesn't entirely make sense because kolton miller is obviously a better player, but maybe bricillo had eluemeanor graded out highest on that line? obviously with the deal he got nobody else around the league thought eluemeanor was the #1 anything.
it also seemed like if they could have gotten hunt/runyan they would have done that which i think would have meant no elumeanor.
They aren't anything alike.
2. JS got the numbers for Barkely and then when he called the agent later he was told he would have to go north of it. So basically the giants had to beat not match the deal. I wonder if Philly got the same call and they increased their offer to beat the top offer. We don't know if they would have given him the previously discussed terms.
3. They wanted all 3 OL but said the extra money took for Runyon took Hunt off the table. Hunt got a ton of money were they ready to go there. Joe and Daboll discussed OL as number 1 over pass rush does this lead to if we could get Hunt that meant no Burns? Or was Burns only an option after we knew Barkley was gone?
Quote:
7. Where is Kafka
8. They seem to be very high on Eluemunor - Schoen kept referring to him as their #1 guy.
The Kafka stuff is definitely bizarre. Like give the guy a vanity scene or two like Bowen. We've basically only heard bowen say 'pass rush' but at least he's present.
I think Schoen's comment about Eluemunor was that "he was their top guy" which i took to mean the Raiders, which he'd probably know bc of Bricillo, and had to be the guy pushing for him in the first place. that doesn't entirely make sense because kolton miller is obviously a better player, but maybe bricillo had eluemeanor graded out highest on that line? obviously with the deal he got nobody else around the league thought eluemeanor was the #1 anything.
it also seemed like if they could have gotten hunt/runyan they would have done that which i think would have meant no elumeanor.
Yeah I think that’s right. They had that other Oline (Hunt?) as a target to for a lot more money so must mean the raiders best lineman. Ties into the comment from Schoen earlier about walkway point.
That gave him cover to tell Mara et al Saquon’s price got too high, rather than having to have it out over whether they wanted him back at all
2. Free Agency is not as black and white as some of us fans make it out to be. There is a lot the org can’t control - and ultimately it comes down to the player deciding what he wants. There was a plan, but at the end of the day the team is just trying to get the best players they can with what they have available.
3. Mara is meddling, but ultimately deferring to Schoen and co
4. Motor was a Daboll move through and through
5. Based on the teaser, QB trade up was the #1 priority on the draft - Dabes seems to be the driving force behind it.
6. Don’t think they had any intention of paying McKinney…haven’t heard much about him.
7. Where is Kafka
8. They seem to be very high on Eluemunor - Schoen kept referring to him as their #1 guy.
On no 2: What struck me is how frustrated Schoen and his FO seemed by this. They try to boil FA down to a science: player eval and salary cap room. Signing a guy may mean losing a guy and vice versa. But no matter how much time they spend and discussions into the early morning, they have no control. It's at the mercy of the players and the other teams who have more money to spend.
His eyes lit up like he saw a pair of tits for the first time at the mere suggestion of trading of for Daniels.
Ultimately, McDonnell may be more dangerous than Mara since he doesnt appear to have the self awareness and believes he’s earned the right lead the franchise.
McDonnell is an incompetent. That was obvious in the first episode.
Quote:
The second point. Daboll wants to move on from Daniel Jones asap. One of the reasons they didn't like McCarthy is because they didn't want "another Daniel Jones"
They aren't anything alike.
That quote comes directly from a member of the Giants organization who is heavily involved in the draft process.
Every tidbit of information for two years has told them the exact same thing, including the 84 million guaranteed.
I owned several businesses and yes, the owner better be knee deep in meddling!
I view Mara as a decent man....who cares for his players...past and present and concerned how fans will respond to some of their moves.
And as far "meddling"...seems very minor and controlled.
If I was Mara and thought Barkley was the Giants fans favorite player and he went to the Eagles....I would not take it so well.
- Despite Saquon saying "we never offered him a contract" there was clearly an intent to resign him within the organization and truth be told, they did right by him by letting him explore
- "Meddling Mara" is very much a thing. So far this series has confirmed him to be exactly what I thought he was. A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
- Something tells me 18 months ago Schoen would let himself be influenced by the Meddling but has gotten to a point where he realizes he needs to ignore it
- I wouldn't trust having Tim McDonnell around me at all if I were Schoen, he seems to be a mouthpiece for John
- Very quick and innocuous comment about Eleumunor that "he could play RT or G", telling in regards to long term plans for Neal
- All FA seemed to costs exactly $1mil more than they guessed they would, seemed a little staged
- Daboll was clearly conscious he was on camera during the scene talking about FA, did not seem comfortable talking while being filmed. HBO must have paid up for music rights on that one...
DG: Who are we negotiating against?
KA: As far as I can tell, nobody.
DG: OK, up the offer to $70M.
I owned several businesses and yes, the owner better be knee deep in meddling!
I view Mara as a decent man....who cares for his players...past and present and concerned how fans will respond to some of their moves.
And as far "meddling"...seems very minor and controlled.
If I was Mara and thought Barkley was the Giants fans favorite player and he went to the Eagles....I would not take it so well.
I'm going to disagree here. I also come from a small business background before going into the corporate world and basically starting businesses within business.
While John has a right to convey his feelings, when you're in a production orientated business you have to realize this may be counterproductive to the overall goal. Given the results since 2012, its hard to argue he's been effective as an owner...
Also keep in mind that they're also paying Joe Schoen millions of dollars a year. Its not good business to spend that money on a high level employee and push to influence their decisions just to placate your own emotions.
Also, please remember when you refer to Mara as the owner, this also isn't a factual statement. He's "an" owner that was voted by the others to be President of the team. His personal stake in the team is actually substantially lower that Tisch's.
- "Meddling Mara" is very much a thing. So far this series has confirmed him to be exactly what I thought he was. A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
- Something tells me 18 months ago Schoen would let himself be influenced by the Meddling but has gotten to a point where he realizes he needs to ignore it
- I wouldn't trust having Tim McDonnell around me at all if I were Schoen, he seems to be a mouthpiece for John
Having someone working for you who cannot lose his job and is going to be the team CEO someday because he flew out of Ann Mara's uterus is an absurd situation.
Regarding Eluemunor, we all knew he was signed so he could move to RT if Neal struggled, I’d be surprised if the FO wasn’t thinking the same thing.
Looking forward to next week. Schoen: “Would you trade up for Daniels?” Daboll: “Absolutely.” But they weren’t looking for a QB.
This is a fact that should be repeatedly beaten into the minds of Giants fans.
John Mara personally owns less than 5% of the Giants.
He is the president and CEO of a company.
I agree with this. Look, as an owner, Mara SHOULD make his voice heard, but what he shouldn’t do is put his thumb on the scale and prevent his personnel guys from making the moves they think are best. I haven’t seen any evidence of that.
I wish his concerns were more about winning than retaining a popular player for a significant cap number. Like, the team needs are obvious. He looked as if this issue was agony for him.
That they weren’t sold on McCarthy doesn’t mean they didn’t want a QB. Daboll took about half a second to respond “Absolutely” to Schoen’s suggestion of trading up for Jayden Daniels. We know they made an effort to move up for Maye. But keep deluding yourself that they really didn’t want a QB because they just love St Daniel to death.
- The earlier episodes gave me the strong impression that Schoen didn't REALLY want to bring back Barkley at the price points being discussed. However, this episode suggests they were still willing to pay him big bucks to bring him back. Would Schoen have done so at the $12.5 million APY with the guaranteed money being discussed in that one call? Sounds possible.
- However, if they did re-sign Barkley, they would not have had money for others, possibly Brian Burns and at the very least one of the two OLs.
- Odd more focus was not on Xavier. That feels like editing.
- Interesting that in an ideal world, they wanted to bring in three starters on the OL.
- Something is fishy/off with the discussions between Daboll and Schoen. At times, it sounds like a couple of casual fans talking rather than the two key decision makers having an honest discussion. I find it difficult to believe they were having such a cavalier discussion about team needs like that. Was that re-enacted for the camera or do they truly spitball so casually like that?
- Mixed feelings on Mara at this point. There is nothing wrong with him voicing his opinion. He pays the checks. But I agree with the posts above that he has to be managed somewhat (if he's reading these comments, he's probably offended by that, but that's they way it comes across). The show/edits give the strong impression (maybe intentional) that he is kept in the loop but is not calling the shots, which is good.
- Biggest take-away for me is that it is very clear that Drew Lock is an afterthought. He was not brought in to compete for the starting job. That was the most important thing this show told me.
- I understand why they didn't but I wished they focused more on the second-tier free agents, Jalen Mills, Isaiah McKenzie, Stinnie, Schlottman, Nelson, the tight ends, Jordon Phillips, etc.
- Overall, not as good as episode two, but part of that was a function of the content (free agency).
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The second point. Daboll wants to move on from Daniel Jones asap. One of the reasons they didn't like McCarthy is because they didn't want "another Daniel Jones"
They aren't anything alike.
They likely saw McCarthy as a game manager type, that’s the common thread.
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Schoen: “Would you trade up for Daniels?” Daboll: “Absolutely.” But they weren’t looking for a QB.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
I think it is probably accurate, but Daboll plays it close to the vest on this show, even to the point that he tried to play a song so they couldn't hear the conversation. So, I would just wait to see if there is not a joke after that teaser or some other explanation to put it in context as opposed to just taking it at face value on the teaser.
I owned several businesses and yes, the owner better be knee deep in meddling!
I view Mara as a decent man....who cares for his players...past and present and concerned how fans will respond to some of their moves.
And as far "meddling"...seems very minor and controlled.
If I was Mara and thought Barkley was the Giants fans favorite player and he went to the Eagles....I would not take it so well.
If your company is successful, by all means meddle.
When it's been nothing but failure (on the field) for the better part of decade, please keep your opinions to yourself and try to find smart people to fix it.
If I was Mara and thought Barkley was the Giants fans favorite player and he went to the Eagles....I would not take it so well.
Mara is more focused on fan perception than winning games.
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Everyone piling on Mara but he isn't exactly making any decisions here. He's voicing some opinions here and there in these discussions but he's basically letting Schoen handle everything. I don't blame him for being nervous about losing Barkley. He's the owner of the team.
I wish his concerns were more about winning than retaining a popular player for a significant cap number. Like, the team needs are obvious. He looked as if this issue was agony for him.
100%. When Mara said “he’s our most popular player”, I wanted to put my fist through the TV. Who cares? This isn’t Coke changing the formula of its iconic soda, it’s not overpaying the most popular player on a lousy football team.
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In comment 16554593 ryanmkeane said:
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Everyone piling on Mara but he isn't exactly making any decisions here. He's voicing some opinions here and there in these discussions but he's basically letting Schoen handle everything. I don't blame him for being nervous about losing Barkley. He's the owner of the team.
I wish his concerns were more about winning than retaining a popular player for a significant cap number. Like, the team needs are obvious. He looked as if this issue was agony for him.
100%. When Mara said “he’s our most popular player”, I wanted to put my fist through the TV. Who cares? This isn’t Coke changing the formula of its iconic soda, it’s not overpaying the most popular player on a lousy football team.
He is your most popular player really only matters if you are reliant on fans as a revenue source; an NFL's team's revenue source is much more varied than ticket and jersey sales (which the Giants do well enough in to begin with). Such a stupid comment by Mara.
They've marched out multiple different running backs and have had an above average ground attack.
Sure, Barkley will get his numbers (if he stays healthy). The real analysis the media WON'T do is would the Eagles be better with a less expensive option at RB, and using the Barkley funds somewhere else on the roster. I think the answer would be yes.
Watching this episode - is the TEAM better trading down to Singletary (whom may not even be a trade down) in addition to one of the Olinemen signed or Burns? I'd say the answer is definite yes.
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Schoen: “Would you trade up for Daniels?” Daboll: “Absolutely.” But they weren’t looking for a QB.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning. They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Even Schoen’s comment if they couldn’t trade up, about being OK with taking a potential game breaking talent “and rolling it back with Daniel” hardly screams a raving endorsement. It sounds more like kicking the question down the road for another year.
One thing I was unclear about and was not sure about the editing was that the Giants seem to be going after Devin Singletary before even they knew about Barkley--strongly suggesting to me if it was properly sequenced that they never really thought they would resign Barkley. But who knows.
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the show did a good job of showing how waiting for news on one free agent can impact the entire free agent period for a team.
One thing I was unclear about and was not sure about the editing was that the Giants seem to be going after Devin Singletary before even they knew about Barkley--strongly suggesting to me if it was properly sequenced that they never really thought they would resign Barkley. But who knows.
Glad you mentioned this.... it's also pretty clear that Daboll really likes Singletary (teaser continues to suggest to me too that Daboll loves Nabers).
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Abrams cooking up the Golladay deal is a sight I don't need to witness.
DG: Who are we negotiating against?
KA: As far as I can tell, nobody.
DG: OK, up the offer to $70M.
LMAO. That just gave me a good laugh.
Could be editing, but yes, he's coming across as a whiny grandparent who comes wandering into the room and everyone is on their best behavior until he waddles off.
Yup. It's an ink-blot test.
It does make me wonder, however, if this was not the case in 2023 offseason.
Costy16 : 9:49 am : link : reply
In comment 16554590 Section331 said:
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In comment 16554498 christian said:
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Abrams cooking up the Golladay deal is a sight I don't need to witness.
DG: Who are we negotiating against?
KA: As far as I can tell, nobody.
DG: OK, up the offer to $70M.
LMAO. That just gave me a good laugh.
He's got a one year prove it deal on the table for 8 million bucks.
DG - Hold my beer....
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way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
Could be editing, but yes, he's coming across as a whiny grandparent who comes wandering into the room and everyone is on their best behavior until he waddles off.
Great analogy. That's exactly what it's like.
Anyone who's ever worked for a closely held firm, or reported to an active board, is familiar with the concept.
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In comment 16554593 ryanmkeane said:
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Everyone piling on Mara but he isn't exactly making any decisions here. He's voicing some opinions here and there in these discussions but he's basically letting Schoen handle everything. I don't blame him for being nervous about losing Barkley. He's the owner of the team.
I wish his concerns were more about winning than retaining a popular player for a significant cap number. Like, the team needs are obvious. He looked as if this issue was agony for him.
100%. When Mara said “he’s our most popular player”, I wanted to put my fist through the TV. Who cares? This isn’t Coke changing the formula of its iconic soda, it’s not overpaying the most popular player on a lousy football team.
I posted earlier on the thread that Tim lurks around key decision and makes the same type of comments, "What's our identity going to be now?" (if they lose SB).
Mara is OLD but Tim is the next problem on the horizon.
LOL
@DDuggan21
As promised, my thoughts on last night:
• The anniversary dinner was delightful.
• Saquon was telling the truth. The Giants never made an offer and his agent did give them a chance to match. I mentioned weeks ago about how reality TV shows are masters of the overly juicy preview clip. (That said next week's tease seemed unequivocal in Daboll's support of trading up for Daniels).
• Clear how rampant tampering is when Berry was able to give Schoen a highly accurate market price before the negotiating window opened.
• Those were some uneasy conversations between Mara and Schoen. Lot of nervous laughter from Schoen. I saw the debate yesterday about the Saquon decision putting Schoen on the hot seat. It's obviously not that simple. But it would be a big log on the fire if Saquon tears it up in Philly and the Giants offense stinks without him.
I think Schoen handled the Saquon situation correctly. But that doesn't mean he'll be immune from scrutiny, especially from his skeptical boss, if he's not validated by results. I'm sure Schoen really wishes that text about Saquon going to the Bears was accurate.
• Obvious but Brian Burns really needs to deliver. Point got driven home about how much one move impacts others. They couldn't shop the top of the OL market (Hunt got $20M/year) or really make any other defensive additions in FA after committing to Burns.
Not a surprise, but Bowen confirmed Burns will play a "shit ton" of snaps. Interesting that Daboll asked about his sack production considering how much coaches tend to downplay the stat.
• Disappointed that we didn't get to see much of the Burns trade negotiations. We went from preliminary talks at the Senior Bowl/combine to finalizing very different details at the start of FA.
• Also disappointed by the lack of insight into McKinney's departure. He doesn't have Saquon's star power but his contract is worth $30M more. Would have liked to get some sense on what, if anything, the Giants even offered.
• Daboll emphasized the need for interior OL. Very little talk of Neal positively or negatively. Rossetti mentioned Eluemunor as the possible starting RT or LG. When Schoen listed the young core OL if they signed Runyan, he mentioned Thomas and JMS but not Neal.
Adding a third year for Runyan without upping the guarantees from the Jets' two-year offer is a win for the Giants. That additional year essentially serves as a team option.
Eluemunor negotiating was interesting, with him wanting a two-year deal and the team then wanting no guarantees in Year 2. They can get out pretty painlessly if they want to move on after this season.
• Surprised they seemed confident in re-signing Tyrod. I got the sense that he was ready to move on after how last season unfolded.
• This episode felt more like an edited TV show. I'm sure they had more targets than the handful featured. And it would have been more interesting to get to watch Abrams/Triggs negotiate rather than hear about it after, but I get why there would be issues with getting to show that.
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way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
This is one decision. What about Eli? What about Jones and Barkley the season before. If I had to guess, Mara was a big reason why they did what they did. Now, I am sure Schoen saw what happened last year and is now trying to correct it. I think Mara realizes that it was the wrong move but still wants Barkley. That is why it looks the way it does now. This is only a snapshot of what goes on but for those that think Mara is the common theme of all these bad regimes, it is only supporting their case.
This should be the main take away. The expectations that the owner has no discussions about big team decisions is fan fantasy. Clearly Schoen is calling the shots. That's the obvious takeway, but don't expect people to take in the obvious when it counters their preconceptions.
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In comment 16554628 robbieballs2003 said:
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way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
This is one decision. What about Eli? What about Jones and Barkley the season before. If I had to guess, Mara was a big reason why they did what they did. Now, I am sure Schoen saw what happened last year and is now trying to correct it. I think Mara realizes that it was the wrong move but still wants Barkley. That is why it looks the way it does now. This is only a snapshot of what goes on but for those that think Mara is the common theme of all these bad regimes, it is only supporting their case.
So basically, you have your views, and when shown to be wrong, you refuse to adjust your thinking. Gettleman was a puppet. He probably did whatever Mara wanted. But he's not GM anymore, and for good reason.
Anytime your boss says "I couldn't sleep if he went to a division rival" it effects how you operate. Now it might not make you make the decision, but it makes you think. In fact, Schoen knew this and asked Ed Berry to give him the heads up.
John Mara in an ultra-minority owner of the Giants (less than 5%) -- he is the president and CEO of the organization. And part, but not all of it, is the football team.
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In comment 16554640 UberAlias said:
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In comment 16554628 robbieballs2003 said:
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way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
This is one decision. What about Eli? What about Jones and Barkley the season before. If I had to guess, Mara was a big reason why they did what they did. Now, I am sure Schoen saw what happened last year and is now trying to correct it. I think Mara realizes that it was the wrong move but still wants Barkley. That is why it looks the way it does now. This is only a snapshot of what goes on but for those that think Mara is the common theme of all these bad regimes, it is only supporting their case.
So basically, you have your views, and when shown to be wrong, you refuse to adjust your thinking. Gettleman was a puppet. He probably did whatever Mara wanted. But he's not GM anymore, and for good reason.
Are you talking to me or about Mara. What am I wrong about if that is what you neant? All I am talking about is how bad this team has been for the past decade plus. The common denominator is Mara. He has to look in the mirror. All I care about is results but when you have the same shitty results with multiple regimes (GMs, coaches, players, scouts, etc.) then you can't keep blaming those around you. I have never been on that side that Mara is the problem but nothing I have seen so far tells me he isn't influencing things in a negative way.
But it also may be heavily edited for obvious reasons.
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
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In comment 16554646 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 16554640 UberAlias said:
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In comment 16554628 robbieballs2003 said:
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way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
This is one decision. What about Eli? What about Jones and Barkley the season before. If I had to guess, Mara was a big reason why they did what they did. Now, I am sure Schoen saw what happened last year and is now trying to correct it. I think Mara realizes that it was the wrong move but still wants Barkley. That is why it looks the way it does now. This is only a snapshot of what goes on but for those that think Mara is the common theme of all these bad regimes, it is only supporting their case.
So basically, you have your views, and when shown to be wrong, you refuse to adjust your thinking. Gettleman was a puppet. He probably did whatever Mara wanted. But he's not GM anymore, and for good reason.
Are you talking to me or about Mara. What am I wrong about if that is what you neant? All I am talking about is how bad this team has been for the past decade plus. The common denominator is Mara. He has to look in the mirror. All I care about is results but when you have the same shitty results with multiple regimes (GMs, coaches, players, scouts, etc.) then you can't keep blaming those around you. I have never been on that side that Mara is the problem but nothing I have seen so far tells me he isn't influencing things in a negative way.
Fair enough, but the point is, you need a strong GM to be successful. I don't think we had that in DG. The fact that JS made the call with Barkley, clearly a very emotional decision for the owner, is a very good sign. That doesn;t mean Schoen is the guy --his actual selections still need to pan out, but at least what we saw here is a necessary condition for success. Namely, being strong enough to make the tough calls despite owner influence. That's all I'm saying.
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
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should be the best, and possibly the most informative in terms of any new actual information we didn't already know.
But it also may be heavily edited for obvious reasons.
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
- Something tells me 18 months ago Schoen would let himself be influenced by the Meddling but has gotten to a point where he realizes he needs to ignore it
brian flores and daniel jones' 5yo would disagree with that observation.
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is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
It's also not an issue if you have a strong GM. And if you don't have a strong GM, you aren't going to be successful. You can say "good decisions" but if he's not studying tape and pouring over analytics, how good can you expect that decision making to be compared to the full strength of competing team's scouting departments? Not very good, IMO.
I think the notion of a Owner who has zero involvement in the big decisions is fan fantasy. Ultimately what you need is the GM making the decisions. That's what we saw here.
- The earlier episodes gave me the strong impression that Schoen didn't REALLY want to bring back Barkley at the price points being discussed. However, this episode suggests they were still willing to pay him big bucks to bring him back. Would Schoen have done so at the $12.5 million APY with the guaranteed money being discussed in that one call? Sounds possible.
- However, if they did re-sign Barkley, they would not have had money for others, possibly Brian Burns and at the very least one of the two OLs.
- Odd more focus was not on Xavier. That feels like editing.
- Interesting that in an ideal world, they wanted to bring in three starters on the OL.
- Something is fishy/off with the discussions between Daboll and Schoen. At times, it sounds like a couple of casual fans talking rather than the two key decision makers having an honest discussion. I find it difficult to believe they were having such a cavalier discussion about team needs like that. Was that re-enacted for the camera or do they truly spitball so casually like that?
- Mixed feelings on Mara at this point. There is nothing wrong with him voicing his opinion. He pays the checks. But I agree with the posts above that he has to be managed somewhat (if he's reading these comments, he's probably offended by that, but that's they way it comes across). The show/edits give the strong impression (maybe intentional) that he is kept in the loop but is not calling the shots, which is good.
- Biggest take-away for me is that it is very clear that Drew Lock is an afterthought. He was not brought in to compete for the starting job. That was the most important thing this show told me.
- I understand why they didn't but I wished they focused more on the second-tier free agents, Jalen Mills, Isaiah McKenzie, Stinnie, Schlottman, Nelson, the tight ends, Jordon Phillips, etc.
- Overall, not as good as episode two, but part of that was a function of the content (free agency).
i think they were going to do 2 OL FAs not 3.
Had Hunt taken their offer which was presumably in the 13-15m range and not gotten $20m per year, I think it's likely they would have added him and Runyan and Burns. Even at the $100m cap number, Hunt's cap hit this year is 6.45m which is actually similar to Eluemeanor's 4.75m.
id imagine once hunt's price went to 20m/year they viewed him just like barkley as too expensive.
it appears they had a contract agreed with burns the entire time even as offers were out on hunt, runyan, singletary, which must have been negotiated before the day of FA opened since the entire decision was in tepper's lap.
remember 1 other thing with burns, at some point after he accepted the deal they revised his structure and lowered his year 1 cap hit to make the deal slightly less flat. i believe not long after that they did the hodgins/phillips/simmons contracts on above minimum deals, so it's possible they wanted to shift the money knowing they had some interest in bringing those guys in. either way the point is all of it was manageable. the prices went out of their comfort zone so they went to singletary/eluemeanor as 1-2 year stop gaps.
ive been critical of schoen but i would say this was his best episode, i appreciate that he has strong discipline in negotiations even when i dont agree with his decisions. it seemed like they had both runyan and hunt identified for their pass pro plus burns and i think that was an excellent plan A.
This is his team now. Like or not DJ is his QB. Have no idea about 2025 going forward at most important position on team
Daboll seems so disinterested imv
I really enjoyed episode 2 and 3.
Can’t wait for draft episode.
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In comment 16554660 Ben in Tampa said:
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is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
It's also not an issue if you have a strong GM. And if you don't have a strong GM, you aren't going to be successful. You can say "good decisions" but if he's not studying tape and pouring over analytics, how good can you expect that decision making to be compared to the full strength of competing team's scouting departments? Not very good, IMO.
I think the notion of a Owner who has zero involvement in the big decisions is fan fantasy. Ultimately what you need is the GM making the decisions. That's what we saw here.
exactly right especially the bold. head coach is the other layer of protection bc you need a strong head coach even more than a strong GM, and in that area i think we can be more confident with daboll than schoen.
Exactly, I had the same impressions. Perfect Gif.
Schoen was clearly focused on OL before any other position which is obviously smart. And they basically made offers to all of the top guards. Again, smart.
One comment that struck me was Rosetti saying Eleumenor was going to be either their "left guard or right tackle" meaning that Neal ultimately is now showing any kind of confidence in the front office. This also struck me as Runyan was clearly the right guard.
This is my sense, but it's just a guess.
lol
Barkley is a nationally known player. X is not. It’s as simple as that. Hard Knocks lives on forever and focusing on a little known safety is not something Skydance, NFL Films and HBO are going to do. Giants fans are just a small part of the audience watching the show.
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about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Barkley is a nationally known player. X is not. It’s as simple as that. Hard Knocks lives on forever and focusing on a little known safety is not something Skydance, NFL Films and HBO are going to do. Giants fans are just a small part of the audience watching the show.
It get it, but it's annoying.
lol
At least you're moving the bar. Just a a few months ago, it was "conspiracy theory" to say John had any significant say in personnel matters.
At least you're making progress.
I assumed the 3rd OL mentioned was about plan B for RT. But who knows.
I think the same thing, but the result is that Daboll sometimes comes off looking clueless/disinterested.
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to get Daboll on the show a little. Its clear he doesn't want to do it. Did you watch him leave after that cryptic 30 seconds of brainstorming session in Schoens office? He was almost running down the hall, and the look on his face was get me off this set now.
I think the same thing, but the result is that Daboll sometimes comes off looking clueless/disinterested.
Which is why episode 2 is still my favorite. We saw the real Daboll because you can't hide those Combine interviews.
Since SB was the "most popular player", I wouldn't put it past co-director/producer Mara to want to make sure the fan base knows they tried really hard to keep Barkley with this version of Hard Knocks.
yea i do the same and havent rewatched yet either, pretty sure it was more of a 2/3 thing but they didnt know which 2 they could get and dropped down to eluemeanor once hunt got too expensive.
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about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Since SB was the "most popular player", I wouldn't put it past co-director/producer Mara to want to make sure the fan base knows they tried really hard to keep Barkley with this version of Hard Knocks.
I've thought about this too. The 3D chess move would be for Mara to fall on the sword and look like the boob to those who didn't want to pay Saquon and/or look like the hero who wanted to keep him.
yes - i think some are thinking the clues in there are more of an indictment of neal than what they've said publicly (i agree with you, it's more what we suspected all along and they want to give Neal another chance).
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Like I said, I will have to go back and re-watch because I know I missed out on some stuff. I may have missed the 2 versus 3 OL thing.
yea i do the same and havent rewatched yet either, pretty sure it was more of a 2/3 thing but they didnt know which 2 they could get and dropped down to eluemeanor once hunt got too expensive.
I have to watch this when others are not in the room because I rewind it to listen to certain scenes again.
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"Holy Shit!! The owner of the team has a personal opinion on the players that play on the team that he owns! And he expresses them to his GM! ERMAHGERD!! Oh what a world, what a world! The Nerve!! The Cheek!! The GALL!! Now Schoen is on the hot seat!! THAT'S SO WHY we are still trotting out Daniel Jones!!"
lol
At least you're moving the bar. Just a a few months ago, it was "conspiracy theory" to say John had any significant say in personnel matters.
At least you're making progress.
Not sure what you mean, lol.... but - my Opinion is 1000% that Mara doesn't "meddle" any more than any other owner in the league... lol.
Right. After the signing, that was a big talking point - Eluemunor's versatility; and the possibility he could be the solution at RT with Neal's history of injuries and poor play.
I've been thinking more about this. What would have helped the team more? Using money and draft capital to acquire Burns or going for a big upgrade at G with Hunt?
Obviously, we couldn't do both...
HAHAHAHAH - noticed that too. Took it a step further with the poker game. I couldnt pay attention to the conversation, all I could try to figure out was. Did Daboll play Beyonce and thy checkmated him? Or were they able to dub out whatever he played, and played Beyonce song over whatever he played 😆
Then I realized why the Daboll played copywrited music thing was leaked out..HBO set that whole thing up lol
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about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Since SB was the "most popular player", I wouldn't put it past co-director/producer Mara to want to make sure the fan base knows they tried really hard to keep Barkley with this version of Hard Knocks.
It's ALMOST like he has a co owener who would know how to orchestrate this for a show too...
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"Holy Shit!! The owner of the team has a personal opinion on the players that play on the team that he owns! And he expresses them to his GM! ERMAHGERD!! Oh what a world, what a world! The Nerve!! The Cheek!! The GALL!! Now Schoen is on the hot seat!! THAT'S SO WHY we are still trotting out Daniel Jones!!"
lol
At least you're moving the bar. Just a a few months ago, it was "conspiracy theory" to say John had any significant say in personnel matters.
At least you're making progress.
i dont think anyone is moving any bars, have we seen 1 thing from mara different than what he's said publicly?
has he not said publicly 100x he wanted barkley to be a giant for life but that it was the GMs decision? same as he has always been supportive of jones despite the 5yo being declined and the team pursuing Maye/Daniels a couple months ago?
That's a really, really good point Eric.
Is the running game as a whole better with Singletary and a better O Line, or Barkley and a lesser O Line?
Obviously, the passing game is better with a better O Line.
Seems clear what Schoen felt
2. Schoen is a beast GM….he knew Morgan was a “friend” and they have a relationship to mutually benefit each other in the future. Schoen will probably throw him a bone soon.
3. Not happy Brandon Brown and Rossetti “encouraged” Schoen to reach out and make an offer to Saquon instead of letting him get back after testing the market
4. Dabs disappoints me in not wanting us to be “entertained”:
5. Glad we got Burns, all those OL guys, and Motor…not sure how I feel about Lock
6. Surprised Morgan accepted our offer for Burns. I thought it would have taken both 2s to get the deal done. I thought that is what he would have wanted…not a 2 and 5.
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not sure why fans are making a big deal out of Eluemunor being an option at two spots. Didn't we all know this?
Right. After the signing, that was a big talking point - Eluemunor's versatility; and the possibility he could be the solution at RT with Neal's history of injuries and poor play.
I've been thinking more about this. What would have helped the team more? Using money and draft capital to acquire Burns or going for a big upgrade at G with Hunt?
Obviously, we couldn't do both...
It's a tough call. Given that Hunt would have been $10M per year cheaper and would not have cost any draft capital, that would have been my preference.
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is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
If your GM can’t tune out an owner’s suggestions, you have the wrong GM. Every GM worries about being fired, but the last thing anyone would want to do is to be fired for doing what they thought the owner wanted. Act on your convictions, and if things don’t work out, so be it.
That said, it is true that we don’t know if Mara acted differently off-camera, but on every decision where he expressed concern with Schoen’s choice, Schoen went with his guy anyway. I don’t see anything that would lead me to believe that Schoen doesn’t have the final say.
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Like I said, I will have to go back and re-watch because I know I missed out on some stuff. I may have missed the 2 versus 3 OL thing.
yea i do the same and havent rewatched yet either, pretty sure it was more of a 2/3 thing but they didnt know which 2 they could get and dropped down to eluemeanor once hunt got too expensive.
They needed 2 IOL added. They wanted to add 2IOL and OT.
I don't know if that was to hedge the injury to Neal or because they wanted 3 new starters.
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 5.5m
singletary cap hits:
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 6.25m
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
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If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
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They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
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In comment 16554624 Section331 said:
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If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
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They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
But the "game breaker" is dependant on the QB. He's not going to break any games if the QB is incapable of getting him the ball
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In comment 16554668 Milton said:
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In comment 16554624 Section331 said:
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If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
Quote:
They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
But the "game breaker" is dependant on the QB. He's not going to break any games if the QB is incapable of getting him the ball
Very true, but now they have the game breaker, they can figure out the QB thing next year, if they need to (a hat tip to the DJFC - I’m not totally ruling out him stepping up his play this year). You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
I didn’t think that would be so difficult to understand.
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 5.5m
singletary cap hits:
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 6.25m
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
The NFL has to remove adding years beyond the contract length for cap purposes. Barkley signed a 3 year deal…..the entire contract must be used I up in those 3 years….no adding void years.
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In comment 16554752 Section331 said:
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In comment 16554668 Milton said:
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In comment 16554624 Section331 said:
Quote:
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
Quote:
They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
But the "game breaker" is dependant on the QB. He's not going to break any games if the QB is incapable of getting him the ball
Very true, but now they have the game breaker, they can figure out the QB thing next year, if they need to (a hat tip to the DJFC - I’m not totally ruling out him stepping up his play this year). You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
I didn’t think that would be so difficult to understand.
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
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saquon barkley cap hits:
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 5.5m
singletary cap hits:
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 6.25m
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
The NFL has to remove adding years beyond the contract length for cap purposes. Barkley signed a 3 year deal…..the entire contract must be used I up in those 3 years….no adding void years.
why? i think the way philly did the contract was stupid personally, but who cares?
the giants or any other team could have done the contract the same if they wanted to.
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It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
But you have no idea what they think of JJM in comparison to Jones (or Penix and Nix for that matter), you just move the goalposts everytime info comes along disproving the faulty narrative you so desperately cling to. It's really quite adorable. Never give up!
I'm not the one moving the goalposts. Yes, they MAY think Jones is better than JJM. Happy now? That still changes nothing. My goalposts are firmly in place - you do not take a QB with a high 1st round pick unless you have a conviction on him. A slight upgrade doesn't move the needle, especially when a player is custom-built for your needs.
The only ones here that desperately cling to narratives are those who, like you, have tried to make every utterance of Jones's name on HK a confirmation of their belief in him.
You simply do NOT go looking at trading multiple firsts for an upgrade at the position, especially a slight upgrade!, if you believe in the guy you just signed to a $40M contract.
Do you think the Bengals were investigating trade up options to replace Burrow?
Pretty much. They've covered their bases in case Neal flops again at RT---which I think he will.
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
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You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
So according to you--with absolutely no evidence to support your contention--Schoen/Daboll didn't have a conviction on JJM, but did perceive him to be a small upgrade over the QB to whom they gave $84M in guaranteed money. That's another way of saying you think Schoen and Daboll are incompetent!
You are such a tiresome troll. I said "small upgrade" as an example of why they might have any interest in JJM. You may be right, he may not be an upgrade over Jones. I honestly don't give a shit. He wouldn't move the needle one bit.
Meanwhile, you're the genius who thinks they should blow a high 1st rounder even if he's only a slight upgrade. But keep going on parsing my words.
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But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
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In comment 16554751 Eric on Li said:
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saquon barkley cap hits:
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 5.5m
singletary cap hits:
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 6.25m
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
The NFL has to remove adding years beyond the contract length for cap purposes. Barkley signed a 3 year deal…..the entire contract must be used I up in those 3 years….no adding void years.
why? i think the way philly did the contract was stupid personally, but who cares?
the giants or any other team could have done the contract the same if they wanted to.
Because for the next 3 years the Eagles have very little salary cap being used on a guy making 37 million. They did the same, even worse, regarding Hurts. Hurts’ big cap hit is in 2029. That gives them about 4 years to add players because their cap space is not be affected in a big way based on their contracts.
This allows for them to buy many more assets, which puts them at an advantage for the next 3 or so years.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
That argument is no longer made because of the video evidence.
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In comment 16554772 Scooter185 said:
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But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
I get that, but Daboll and Schoen are likely thinking that they made the playoffs with Jones before. Fix he defense, the OL, add some weapons, and let's see what he can do. And making the playoffs likely takes them out a draft position to take a top QB, but there are other ways to handle it.
I'm not sure how much rope drafting a QB who likely wouldn't start for most of the season really gives him. They apparently tried like hell to get Maye, I'm sure DC said NFW to trading them the pick, but sorry, attempting to trade a massive haul to get a QB does not scream confidence in your starting QB.
Hell, no, but like I said, if your GM doesn't know how to handle an owners input, you have the wrong GM!
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In comment 16554772 Scooter185 said:
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But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
Would drafting a quarterback buy Daboll time? Drafting Jones bought Shurmer no time, to say nothing of Frank Reich and Bryce Young.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
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In comment 16554794 Section331 said:
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In comment 16554772 Scooter185 said:
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But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
Would drafting a quarterback buy Daboll time? Drafting Jones bought Shurmer no time, to say nothing of Frank Reich and Bryce Young.
Carolina is next level dysfunction.
As far as PS, I don't see a similarity in their circumstances besides ushering in a new QB had they taken one.
But apparently the trick worked in the 1st episode.
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The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
The Schoen I am watching and again I realize it is edited, seems out of his depth. The conversations they were having about FA five minutes before it started seem to be conversations they should have been having months before, especially that conversation with Daboll right before FA startred. With that said, I do realize that this conversation could have been staged etc for the cameras to get some narrative about FA. The thing that strikes me about Schoen is how reactive he seems to be. But again, its hard to know what is genuine and what is not. However, you would have to think the Giants FO is cringing watching this knowing that their players are watching this. Unlike Hard Knocks which usually focus's on bottom of the roster, this process is going to the core elements of our team. I can't imagine these guys like this.
Meanwhile, what we really know about the defensive coordinator is that it was a long process with several candidates being interviewed. Blatantly done for the audience.
Kind of surprised that people wouldn't get that.
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In comment 16554811 The Mike said:
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The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
The Schoen I am watching and again I realize it is edited, seems out of his depth. The conversations they were having about FA five minutes before it started seem to be conversations they should have been having months before, especially that conversation with Daboll right before FA startred. With that said, I do realize that this conversation could have been staged etc for the cameras to get some narrative about FA. The thing that strikes me about Schoen is how reactive he seems to be. But again, its hard to know what is genuine and what is not. However, you would have to think the Giants FO is cringing watching this knowing that their players are watching this. Unlike Hard Knocks which usually focus's on bottom of the roster, this process is going to the core elements of our team. I can't imagine these guys like this.
Dude, it is a SHOW.. The talk is cleary designed for that episode specifically and was most LIKELY talked ad nauseum before that. Come on.. You think Schoen woke up that day and goes, wait what if we offer Barkley this can we do that- and never had discussed it before...
Chris Jones, Wilkins, Hunt etc.
The Maranoia stuff is hilarious. The GMs job is to get input from all involved. He should want Mara’s input even if it’s annoying. To expect the guy to not even have an opinion? Cmon now.
That said, as stated above all of these conversations seem manufactured. The real conversations happened sometime else. Or at least I hope so.
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In comment 16554829 5BowlsSoon said:
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In comment 16554811 The Mike said:
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The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
The Schoen I am watching and again I realize it is edited, seems out of his depth. The conversations they were having about FA five minutes before it started seem to be conversations they should have been having months before, especially that conversation with Daboll right before FA startred. With that said, I do realize that this conversation could have been staged etc for the cameras to get some narrative about FA. The thing that strikes me about Schoen is how reactive he seems to be. But again, its hard to know what is genuine and what is not. However, you would have to think the Giants FO is cringing watching this knowing that their players are watching this. Unlike Hard Knocks which usually focus's on bottom of the roster, this process is going to the core elements of our team. I can't imagine these guys like this.
Dude, it is a SHOW.. The talk is cleary designed for that episode specifically and was most LIKELY talked ad nauseum before that. Come on.. You think Schoen woke up that day and goes, wait what if we offer Barkley this can we do that- and never had discussed it before...
First, I accounted for the fact that it is a show. Second, as FA is about to hit, do you really want our front office playing Acting 101? FA is an extremely fluid situation that Schoen talks about having to react to. So, either way, the whole thing is so stupid and cringeworthy. Next week, tune in to see how the Giants have no confidence in their franchise QB. The person who allowed this to happen on the NFL side and the team side should have their heads reexamined.
Meanwhile, what we really know about the defensive coordinator is that it was a long process with several candidates being interviewed. Blatantly done for the audience.
Kind of surprised that people wouldn't get that.
Exactly. I thought the session with Schoen and Daboll discussing OL FA’s was pretty clearly restaged. They sounded like a couple of rando BBI’ers at a bar.
Hard Knocks: "This is bullshit. We don't have any material on Daboll. The fucker keeps playing his hip hop music over every conversation and runs from us every time he sees a camera."
Hanlon: "Relax. We'll figure something out. We'll get him to play along."
PR team to Daboll: "This is part of your job description. Give us 5 minutes and we'll stage a faux conversation and let you get back to work."
Daboll: "This is bullshit."
Good chance his office is like a museum of football history, with memorabilia and photos dating back a hundred years (ie the centennial season).
The Maranoia stuff is hilarious. The GMs job is to get input from all involved. He should want Mara’s input even if it’s annoying. To expect the guy to not even have an opinion? Cmon now.
That said, as stated above all of these conversations seem manufactured. The real conversations happened sometime else. Or at least I hope so.
No one should be surprised Mara skulks around and has these interactions with the GM he hired. Totally expected.
To me, the biggest confirmation of this series is Schoen is getting his way with personnel decisions. And managing Mara along the way. If Mara really wanted to keep his "most popular player" Barkley would have signed. It's as simple as that. He loves Barkley and the how he impacts other revenue streams...
I'm pretty sure that is manufactured or staged. Other stuff? Sure.
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The Maranoia stuff is hilarious. The GMs job is to get input from all involved. He should want Mara’s input even if it’s annoying. To expect the guy to not even have an opinion? Cmon now.
That said, as stated above all of these conversations seem manufactured. The real conversations happened sometime else. Or at least I hope so.
No one should be surprised Mara skulks around and has these interactions with the GM he hired. Totally expected.
To me, the biggest confirmation of this series is Schoen is getting his way with personnel decisions. And managing Mara along the way. If Mara really wanted to keep his "most popular player" Barkley would have signed. It's as simple as that. He loves Barkley and the how he impacts other revenue streams...
I'm pretty sure that is manufactured or staged. Other stuff? Sure.
💯 agree
And that is comforting to know that JS is getting his way
No one should be surprised Mara skulks around and has these interactions with the GM he hired. Totally expected.
To me, the biggest confirmation of this series is Schoen is getting his way with personnel decisions. And managing Mara along the way. If Mara really wanted to keep his "most popular player" Barkley would have signed. It's as simple as that. He loves Barkley and the how he impacts other revenue streams...
I'm pretty sure that is manufactured or staged. Other stuff? Sure.
Last line should include read, "...not manufactured or staged".
Good chance his office is like a museum of football history, with memorabilia and photos dating back a hundred years (ie the centennial season).
It would be interesting to see Mara's office, I agree. But there isn't anything weird IMO about Mara visiting Schoen in his own office when it's just a conversation, not a formal meeting. If anything, I'd be more surprised to find out that Mara operated in the manner you suggest.
Hard Knocks: "This is bullshit. We don't have any material on Daboll. The fucker keeps playing his hip hop music over every conversation and runs from us every time he sees a camera."
Hanlon: "Relax. We'll figure something out. We'll get him to play along."
PR team to Daboll: "This is part of your job description. Give us 5 minutes and we'll stage a faux conversation and let you get back to work."
Daboll: "This is bullshit."
Perhaps my memory is off, but I don't remember much of that. In fact, I remember the opposite where people were calling for Tisch to get more involved.
Bingo
So you're saying he doesn't have the Kate Mara acting gene. ;)
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But if you don’t think Mara actually thinks the way he spoke about Saqoun, you’re fooling yourself.
So you're saying he doesn't have the Kate Mara acting gene. ;)
Or the looks
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"Of course an owner should have input, what would you expect?" get violently ill when Tisch speaks, and I wonder why.
Perhaps my memory is off, but I don't remember much of that. In fact, I remember the opposite where people were calling for Tisch to get more involved.
It was more in the past than now but some people really dont like it.
It’s the context of his actual opinions that are troubling. They’re not rooted in wining, they’re rooted in feelings and what the fans will think.
We saw it during the Eli benching. If the fans didn’t revolt they probably would have moved on from Eli that offseason.
Because for the next 3 years the Eagles have very little salary cap being used on a guy making 37 million. They did the same, even worse, regarding Hurts. Hurts’ big cap hit is in 2029. That gives them about 4 years to add players because their cap space is not be affected in a big way based on their contracts.
This allows for them to buy many more assets, which puts them at an advantage for the next 3 or so years.
and a disadvantageous position after those 3 years when he's on the wrong side of 30, not under contract, and yet still taking up cap space...it's a double edged sword and a risky strategy more generally.
That argument is no longer made because of the video evidence.
what is there in video evidence that he hasn't said publicly multiple times? is the thinking he wasnt saying in private what he says publicly?
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The goal posts have definitely shifted. This has been an ongoing discussion for years with one side insisting Mara did not put his hands on the scale.
That argument is no longer made because of the video evidence.
what is there in video evidence that he hasn't said publicly multiple times? is the thinking he wasnt saying in private what he says publicly?
Eric, all I'm saying is that for months, we had numerous posters on this site saying John Mara did not weigh in on personnel matters in a significant way. It wasn't one or two or three people on this site.
Now we have seen a few times in this series where he uses what I call a passive-aggressive approach on Schoen. In 2024, based on what we've seen so far, it didn't work.
I do question if it did work in 2023 offseason when Jones and Barkley were coming off relatively strong seasons.
I think, if anything, Mara toned down his support for resigning Saquon.
He's shuffling around in his half zip and Skethcers, mumbling inaudibly and quipping about silly stuff.
Write that guy off the show please.
He's shuffling around in his half zip and Skethcers, mumbling inaudibly and quipping about silly stuff.
Write that guy off the show please.
LOL
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2. Schoen is a beast GM….he knew Morgan was a “friend” and they have a relationship to mutually benefit each other in the future. Schoen will probably throw him a bone soon.
3. Not happy Brandon Brown and Rossetti “encouraged” Schoen to reach out and make an offer to Saquon instead of letting him get back after testing the market
4. Dabs disappoints me in not wanting us to be “entertained”:
5. Glad we got Burns, all those OL guys, and Motor…not sure how I feel about Lock
6. Surprised Morgan accepted our offer for Burns. I thought it would have taken both 2s to get the deal done. I thought that is what he would have wanted…not a 2 and 5.
I didn't see what Brown and Rossetti suggested as unreasonable. I really wish we'd seen the deliberations between Brown and Schoen when they decided that the price tag was too high for Barkley.
On #6 - I can't help but wonder how Panthers fans feel about that trade after watching that episode. Although for all we know, the owner told Morgan to trade Burns and he didn't have real leverage in the negotiations with Schoen.
Also - what actual value does Tim McDonnell provide? I have yet to hear him contribute anything insightful and they keep showing him in these meetings, and he's useless. Oh, except where he provided stats about Burns' sacks compared to the other draft classes, which any 12 year old with Internet access could have done. A better point might have been how well he did in spite of how lousy the Panthers teams were.
Mara's comment about Barkley being the 'most popular player' was inane. Fortunately Schoen and Brown don't let sentiment get in the way of good decision making. At least, not in this past offseason.
It may have been said elsewhere, but I also find it encouraging that Schoen works with Brown to make these decisions. I had the sense that Gettleman just did whatever he wanted and didn't ask anyone for an opinion, or if he did, he ignored it. I also don't see how Brown isn't hired by another front office as a GM within the next few years. He's really impressive. No wonder the Eagles were so mad he got away.
Is there anyone in sports media worth listening to anymore?
Seriously.
1,000%. I keep hoping the beat writers will come away from these episodes wondering why he has the position he does. And asking questions about him. He reminds me of that useless family member in Casino that drove DeNiro crazy. I wonder if Schoen/Brown see him that same way.
Cowherd doesn't seem to realize that the Giants are also owned by Tisch. Who, in my opinion, told Mara he had to hire a GM from the outside and respect his decision making. And is smart enough not to look like a bumbling idiot on screen.
I could be wrong, but thought I saw him in the top right at the combine footage.
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I have not scanned the room when they have group shots. Has anyone seen Ryan Cowden?
I could be wrong, but thought I saw him in the top right at the combine footage.
You're right. I did think I spotted him briefly at the Combine. Curious to know if he's been in any of these meetings at the facility.
It’s the context of his actual opinions that are troubling. They’re not rooted in wining, they’re rooted in feelings and what the fans will think.
We saw it during the Eli benching. If the fans didn’t revolt they probably would have moved on from Eli that offseason.
Tisch is part of the organization too, but he chooses not to mope around the building.
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If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
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They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
Exactly right Milton! I think the Giants still believe they can win with Jones if they give him a supporting cast. I think they think he had "no chance" last year and most likely discount it. I also think they are very concerned about his injury history and don't see him as a TOP LEVEL QB.
Therfore you look at options to trade up if it is possible to get a QB who can be TOP LEVEL. Otherwise you roll with Jones and get him OL and better weapons. I believe they still think he can be successful, but are looking to hedge their bets.
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In comment 16554818 Eric from BBI said:
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The goal posts have definitely shifted. This has been an ongoing discussion for years with one side insisting Mara did not put his hands on the scale.
That argument is no longer made because of the video evidence.
what is there in video evidence that he hasn't said publicly multiple times? is the thinking he wasnt saying in private what he says publicly?
Eric, all I'm saying is that for months, we had numerous posters on this site saying John Mara did not weigh in on personnel matters in a significant way. It wasn't one or two or three people on this site.
were those people denying that john mara was making comments like this publicly or just not paying attention?
Mar 28, 2022 "We're not shopping Saquon, but Joe's the general manager," Mara told reporters, per Pat Leonard of the NY Daily News. "If he and the head coach want to make a personnel decision and have a conviction about it, I'm not gonna interfere with it. But that's not something we're actively looking to do, let's put it that way."
3/27/2023, John Mara wants Saquon Barkley to be Giant for life, but no long-term offer is on table
'I told Saquon we want him to be a Giant for his entire career'
Mar. 27, 2023 = John Mara’s message to Giants’ Saquon Barkley: We want you back — but you’re not going to break the bank
3/24/24 = Giants’ John Mara ‘sick’ about losing Saquon Barkley
mara has been saying all the same things he said on HK re barkley publicly for the last 2+ years.
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But if you don’t think Mara actually thinks the way he spoke about Saqoun, you’re fooling yourself.
I think, if anything, Mara toned down his support for resigning Saquon.
Right. Occam’s razor suggests it’s worse when the cameras are off, not non existent.
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In comment 16554929 ajr2456 said:
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But if you don’t think Mara actually thinks the way he spoke about Saqoun, you’re fooling yourself.
I think, if anything, Mara toned down his support for resigning Saquon.
Right. Occam’s razor suggests it’s worse when the cameras are off, not non existent.
what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
The Mara bit on Saquon being the most popular Giant…
I just can’t with John.
Apparently Fox is parting ways with Bayless.
Cowherd should be next.
Imbecile.
what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
Again, making an argument that isn’t there.
Meddling doesn’t mean Mara gets his way on everything or even at all (as I said in previous posts).
If you actually read my posts instead of jumping for a fight you’d realize I said Mara voicing his opinion isn’t the bad part, it’s that the context and thought process of his opinions are bad.
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as many suspected, Tim McDonnell is not coming off particularly well. He was already behind the 8-ball due to his revealed texts with the Patriots.
The Nephew is an idiot.
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Apparently Fox is parting ways with Bayless.
Cowherd should be next.
Imbecile.
Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
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He’s part of the organization of course he will.
It’s the context of his actual opinions that are troubling. They’re not rooted in wining, they’re rooted in feelings and what the fans will think.
We saw it during the Eli benching. If the fans didn’t revolt they probably would have moved on from Eli that offseason.
Tisch is part of the organization too, but he chooses not to mope around the building.
Tisch has other business interests, this is John’s business.
The Mara bit on Saquon being the most popular Giant…
I just can’t with John.
You just can’t what? Lol
He’s speaking from an owner’s perspective. Do you not think Saquon was the most popular Giant before he left? Do you think there’s a single owner in the sport who wouldn’t have the same thoughts as Mara when it comes to a fan favorite?
He allowed Schoen to let him walk without us even making a formal offer. What else matters?
Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
Right.
Cowherd is one of the biggest phonies in sports talk. And that is saying a lot.
For example, if Schoen re-signed SB and SB hit that inflexion point where his production curve nosedived, he would be first in line to criticize Schoen for making a big deal for a RB.
Schoen was handed the keys to run all football operations. Mara said it was important to let Schoen make those decisions. Based on the Gettleman era, I was very skeptical.
But I've seen enough evidence from his start date that Schoen is indeed swinging the final gavel. And a big part of his job is getting Mara comfortable with his final decisions.
Which is why I divert from many of my friends on this board that this is Schoen's team and he's not being strongarmed by Mara.
More time will tell if my assessment is correct...
Owner + GM/head of football ops + Head coach + QB.
The Giants are not operating in lockstep. Schoen and Daboll are for the most part. But there's clearly something missing with Schoen and ownership and Daboll and Jones.
Based on how Schoen is being positioned and highlighted, I can see him losing a lot of power depending on the next head coach.
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In comment 16554939 ajr2456 said:
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He’s part of the organization of course he will.
It’s the context of his actual opinions that are troubling. They’re not rooted in wining, they’re rooted in feelings and what the fans will think.
We saw it during the Eli benching. If the fans didn’t revolt they probably would have moved on from Eli that offseason.
Tisch is part of the organization too, but he chooses not to mope around the building.
Tisch has other business interests, this is John’s business.
I know, it's just painful to watch Mara and if he really cares what the fans think he'd spend less time there.
Owner + GM/head of football ops + Head coach + QB.
The Giants are not operating in lockstep. Schoen and Daboll are for the most part. But there's clearly something missing with Schoen and ownership and Daboll and Jones.
Based on how Schoen is being positioned and highlighted, I can see him losing a lot of power depending on the next head coach.
Mara is not the only owner of this team. And to me, the most successful football organizations are ones where the owner lets the professionals make the decisions. Somehow I don't think Biscotti is whining to DeCosta about personnel decisions he makes for the Ravens.
It's very disappoint not seeing you in this thread, btw...
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what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
Again, making an argument that isn’t there.
Meddling doesn’t mean Mara gets his way on everything or even at all (as I said in previous posts).
If you actually read my posts instead of jumping for a fight you’d realize I said Mara voicing his opinion isn’t the bad part, it’s that the context and thought process of his opinions are bad.
that's fair but would we ever expect that to not be true of any owner?
the guys who make enough money to buy/own teams aren't likely to have done so bc of football acumen and there are endless examples of other acumen's not translating (snyder, tepper, etc). im pretty sure the best anyone can hope for of an owner is that they give their GM the autonomy that schoen clearly has.
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In comment 16554991 Eric on Li said:
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what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
Again, making an argument that isn’t there.
Meddling doesn’t mean Mara gets his way on everything or even at all (as I said in previous posts).
If you actually read my posts instead of jumping for a fight you’d realize I said Mara voicing his opinion isn’t the bad part, it’s that the context and thought process of his opinions are bad.
that's fair but would we ever expect that to not be true of any owner?
the guys who make enough money to buy/own teams aren't likely to have done so bc of football acumen and there are endless examples of other acumen's not translating (snyder, tepper, etc). im pretty sure the best anyone can hope for of an owner is that they give their GM the autonomy that schoen clearly has.
Again, see my post at 2:44pm
It’s the context of his actual opinions that are troubling. They’re not rooted in wining, they’re rooted in feelings and what the fans will think.
the context of most owners opinions is usually worse than fan's feelings. certainly was for the snyders, wilpons, dolans, woody johnsons, jerry jones, charles wangs, maybe even hal steinbrenner at this point. those feelings can run the gamut anywhere from micromanaging egomaniacs, to flagrantly cheap, to rotten to the core illegal.
also who is to say that's exclusively where mara's feelings come from? is it possible he thinks barkley can help them win? id imagine that's what howie roseman and jeffrey lurie believe.
It will then be interesting if the series shows how Schoen smooths things over with Team Jones.
There’s plenty of evidence to suggest that Mara doesn’t realize what it takes to turn around this franchise.
Reversing course on the Eli benching because of the fan outrage, and not moving on from Eli that offseason.
The way he’s spoken about Saqoun. Hanging on to Coughlin too long.
There’s more evidence to suggest that is where John’s feelings are coming from than not. Did he not mention the fans and jersey sales in the clip?
Cowboy fans hate Jerry Jones with the fire of a thousand suns as they should since his ego blew up a real dynasty and has held them back for 3+ decades since and counting. Panther fans feel the same about Tepper, just a few years after he was the next great hope. If Jet fans knew half of how Woody Johnson runs the Jets they'd spontaneously combust. Aaron Rodgers almost did.
I disagree that how other owners operate isn't relevant because that's the competitive set. Nobody gets to choose to fire the owner just like most people don't get to choose to fire their boss. All you can do is accept either situation or choose the freedom to move on. On the scale of owners Mara is probably average or above average and i can accept that bc no owner is winning a ring, it's the people they hire. If Schoen/Daboll are the goods the team will win. The complaints about him are so minor compared to what the real crappy owners do, which is first and foremost drive away anyone with any talent as jerry jones did with jimmy johnson. i dont understand anyone who has rooted for the other NY teams and experienced what its like with a wilpon/dolan owned team to not appreciate that at the least mara isnt even in that universe. but i guess there's a subset of mets fans that moronically complain about Steve Cohen so people can complain about anything.
I literally that in multiple posts. You’re once again arguing with ghosts.
It’s a message board, we can discuss the episode of a TV show and what occurred on the TV show. You can accept the situation or choose the freedom to move on.
And exactly how would he do that even if he wanted to being that he owns 50% of the team?
Owner + GM/head of football ops + Head coach + QB.
The Giants are not operating in lockstep. Schoen and Daboll are for the most part. But there's clearly something missing with Schoen and ownership and Daboll and Jones.
Based on how Schoen is being positioned and highlighted, I can see him losing a lot of power depending on the next head coach.
Lock step? Every organization has discussions about the team. You don't want a bunch of pollyannas, so they are in lockstep. I want varying views and opinions so that a more informed decision can be made.
You make it sound like John Mara should say Barkley is our favorite player and Joe schoen should agree and pay him. Everyone sings kumbaya.
The lockstep is in being able to voice different opinions and thoughts and yet supporting the guy who ultimately makes the decision.
John Mara has not publicly or any other way criticized Joe schoen for his decisions or undermined him in anyway.
It will then be interesting if the series shows how Schoen smooths things over with Team Jones.
Schoen knew he was being recorded. He didn’t sugarcoat what he said for a reason. JS wants DJ to know that he’s an albatross around the teams next if he doesn’t perform and he’s gonna know exactly where he stands. If he didn’t already. I could be wrong.
It will then be interesting if the series shows how Schoen smooths things over with Team Jones.
This is the kind of motivation that will surely propel Jones to mediocrity.
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Nobody gets to choose to fire the owner just like most people don't get to choose to fire their boss. All you can do is accept either situation or choose the freedom to move on.
I literally that in multiple posts. You’re once again arguing with ghosts.
It’s a message board, we can discuss the episode of a TV show and what occurred on the TV show. You can accept the situation or choose the freedom to move on.
respectfully im pretty sure the ghost chasing is being done by those trying to read into comments that are no different than public comments mara has made 100x. comments he has always conditioned that his gm has the autonomy to feel differently - exactly as has happened often since schoen got hired.
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that Schoen/Daboll were indeed eager to move on from Jones. And were very disappointed when they couldn't execute the trade with the Pats.
It will then be interesting if the series shows how Schoen smooths things over with Team Jones.
Schoen knew he was being recorded. He didn’t sugarcoat what he said for a reason. JS wants DJ to know that he’s an albatross around the teams next if he doesn’t perform and he’s gonna know exactly where he stands. If he didn’t already. I could be wrong.
The fact that he is the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year is probably not enough of a clue for DJ to understand that he needs to elevate the offense this year if the team is to have a successful season. DJ's biggest problem after all has always been his inability to process things quickly. So good job by Joe Schoen in making this clear on HardKnocks!
Some thick irony there considering how much Schoen ponied up for Team Jones... ;)
Yep
I really like Daboll. I like his arrogance, his grumpiness, his salt of the earth vibe. I think he thinks he can coach anybody up...but would certainly prefer a real talent.
He seems 100% more genuine than his predecessor Joe Cliche.
But the discussion of meddling often misses the most important points and focuses on dumb ones.
It doesn’t matter the extent other owners are involved or if they should be. It’s unreasonable to expect any owner would not have influence on their multi-billion dollar baby.
But it would also be unreasonable to suggest that the Mara’s do not care about their perception. As we've seen them try hard to downplay their involvement. The sad thing is that we are seeing the sanitized version on Hard Knocks given that.
The only important thing is the dark matter. We cannot see it any more than we can see John Mara banging the gavel on dumb choices. But we can see what their forces exert on their surroundings.
While the argument that Mara is calling the shots is dumb. It is insane to suggest that it was on the table for JS to let Jones really test the market and perhaps leave. And that exerted a force on the negotiations that took away JS’s leverage. Hard to say it didn’t when team Jones had an ask of $50M with his resume. Any other team doesn't counter, they laugh, and laugh.
That is what makes us laughed at, why players on other teams speak up. Beyond committing to Jones we got swindled by a guy that wouldn't start for most teams. While we took a hard negotiating line with a player that starts for most teams. Even KT said this. How many people in the locker room felt the same?
The same emotionally heavy decision making we have seen on their best behavior in Hard Knocks fits into a nice horizon. The force that the Mara's exert makes us one of the worst teams in the league, accross various GMs and coaches the mark of that force is clear.
Muddle in the meddling semantics all you want. It comes down to if you want to let the Mara's convice you to downplay their involvement and impact. Tell you this regime is different and look at how they redid all the technology in the draft room! They have figured it out!
Or you are willing to sit in the uncomfortable truth that we are a low ceiling team?
As long as they keep selling enough of you on that next coach, that next GM turning it around! He's learned his lesson! He will be hands off! Daboll is the best coach we've had since TC by far. And this is heading in a direction that we lose him. Sad.
P.S. Tim looks worse, I shudder to think that we'd actually be worse off without John.
I agree with this sentiment, but *if* you believe this you also have to acknowledge that that effectively makes this job more difficult than it has to be.
That makes it difficult for an outsider to come into this building and have success, and one of the Giants' biggest failures in the past decade is insistence on being a closed bubble of insiders and friends 'n family.
It creates an added layer of difficulty for an already difficult job. A rookie GM is now not just having to learn the job but also how to navigate the maze of managing personalities that are supposed to be allies.
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You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
So according to you--with absolutely no evidence to support your contention--Schoen/Daboll didn't have a conviction on JJM, but did perceive him to be a small upgrade over the QB to whom they gave $84M in guaranteed money. That's another way of saying you think Schoen and Daboll are incompetent!
In comment 16554605 Milton said:
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Schoen: “Would you trade up for Daniels?” Daboll: “Absolutely.” But they weren’t looking for a QB.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Speaking of moving goal posts, didn't you argue last week that the Giants' interest in QBs was all a ruse to get Nabers to fall to them? Now you're arguing that the Giants did have interest in trading up because they viewed one of the tops guys as a Mahomes level talent?
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Just watched it.
The Mara bit on Saquon being the most popular Giant…
I just can’t with John.
You just can’t what? Lol
He’s speaking from an owner’s perspective. Do you not think Saquon was the most popular Giant before he left? Do you think there’s a single owner in the sport who wouldn’t have the same thoughts as Mara when it comes to a fan favorite?
He allowed Schoen to let him walk without us even making a formal offer. What else matters?
The fact that John is bemoaning letting him walk because he's a 'fan favorite'...WTF are we doing? I get he sells merch, but I'd rather Mara focus on winning.
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
It is my humble opinion that Joe Schoen virtually runs everything his way. The meetings are in his office and even the owners come to his office. Even when JM comes in to briefly give his opinion, he walks away after Joe gives his. It is clear to me that JM does not know enough to meddle effectively. Someone posted that they were not impressed with his "presence". I agree he appears to be too timid to be a CEO.
Of course the way the show is produced it may be done to show Schoen as the real power in the org.
It was interesting the way they divided up the FA money and how having to up the ante on each player eliminated other player(s) from being signed. (Runyon, Eleumenor and losing Hunt). I was especially surprised that Runyon at guard received more money than Eleumenor and that was what was predicted from the beginning.
Burns is a pretty impressive physical guy. Seemed to dwarf everyone. I like how Schoen told Bowen that Burns was all he was getting during FA.
I also enjoy reading everyone's POVs. Some very insightful points.
I would be pretty optimistic on the season if they had been able to land one of their preferred QBs.
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A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
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In comment 16554589 Biteymax22 said:
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A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
A spy?
So silly….yea….I’m sure he he revealing super secret information that they won’t share with Mara
Mara's involvement is controversial because he's sucked at hiring people and says stupid shit regularly.
Mara's involvement is controversial because he's sucked at hiring people and says stupid shit regularly.
This
Also the 'fuck the eagles' line was by the far the best line of the episode.
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In comment 16554589 Biteymax22 said:
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A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Also interesting that MG reported that he expected NYG to trade up for a QB around the combine.
Imagine Maye and Jones on the roster. Now that would be some drama!
Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
Look, that's fine with me. Because when the dust settled and smoke cleared, Schoen clearly had the final call. And Mara accepted it, albeit crestfallen.
Mara looks like a very nice man, but he had no leadership presence at all. Having worked for three Fortune 100 companies (two in the top ten), it's pretty easy to spot someone who is not C-suite material. And Mara doesn't. I worked for Dave Wichmann, former CEO for UNH, when he was running the M&A department, and that guy commanded a room when he walked into it. People wanted to hitch their wagons to the guy and follow his lead.
I'd be curious what the cadence was with the Bills and what Schoen was exposed to working for Beane who worked for Terry Pegula, the owner and self-made billionaire. And how that experience may have helped him manage someone like Mara...
And he said Giants had discussed trading up to the top 3 spots. He didn't directly say they were likely to trade up to get their first round QB.
In April, MG said the Giants would only trade up for Drake Maye, and it would only happen if Maye somehow fell to the number 4 spot. See link.
MG was living in the real world when he said this. He recognized that the top 3 teams were not trading out.
Were the Giants living in the same real world? My view of the Drew Lock signing, which was two weeks after the combine, is that the Giants knew trading into the top 3 to get the QB they wanted was a very long shot, at best.
nfl.com - ( New Window )
Were the Giants living in the same real world? My view of the Drew Lock signing, which was two weeks after the combine, is that the Giants knew trading into the top 3 to get the QB they wanted was a very long shot, at best. nfl.com - ( New Window )
If you believe Rico is a reliable BBI Insider, the framework of a deal to move into the third spot was in place on draft day with New England. It sounded very much like the deal was near the finish line.
Whether Wolt got cold feet or was bluffing, or Schoen wouldn't add another piece to close the deal, the deal collapsed right before or shortly after 8pm.
So, it seems like it may have been more than a Hail Mary Idea. Hopefully, we get more info next week.
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Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
Right.
Cowherd is one of the biggest phonies in sports talk. And that is saying a lot.
For example, if Schoen re-signed SB and SB hit that inflexion point where his production curve nosedived, he would be first in line to criticize Schoen for making a big deal for a RB.
Schoen was handed the keys to run all football operations. Mara said it was important to let Schoen make those decisions. Based on the Gettleman era, I was very skeptical.
But I've seen enough evidence from his start date that Schoen is indeed swinging the final gavel. And a big part of his job is getting Mara comfortable with his final decisions.
Which is why I divert from many of my friends on this board that this is Schoen's team and he's not being strongarmed by Mara.
More time will tell if my assessment is correct...
In winning organizations everyone shares the same opinion? Have we lost our mind? This is total media nonsense. In successful organizations there is open exchange of ideas on difficult decisions and healthy discussion. Cowherd is a moron.
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Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
Right.
Cowherd is one of the biggest phonies in sports talk. And that is saying a lot.
For example, if Schoen re-signed SB and SB hit that inflexion point where his production curve nosedived, he would be first in line to criticize Schoen for making a big deal for a RB.
Schoen was handed the keys to run all football operations. Mara said it was important to let Schoen make those decisions. Based on the Gettleman era, I was very skeptical.
But I've seen enough evidence from his start date that Schoen is indeed swinging the final gavel. And a big part of his job is getting Mara comfortable with his final decisions.
Which is why I divert from many of my friends on this board that this is Schoen's team and he's not being strongarmed by Mara.
More time will tell if my assessment is correct...
I thought Mara accepted not signing Barkley but was annoyed with the decision.
It better work out or Schoen will be gone .
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I give Schaboll credit for recognizing they need to upgrade quarterback. But bad marks for the previous commitment.
I really like Daboll. I like his arrogance, his grumpiness, his salt of the earth vibe. I think he thinks he can coach anybody up...but would certainly prefer a real talent.
He seems 100% more genuine than his predecessor Joe Cliche.
His QB interviews showed he should absolutely be calling the plays this year. And I know it’s only a snippet from next week’s episode but it’s clear that he loves what he sees in Nabers’ tape.
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Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
Look, that's fine with me. Because when the dust settled and smoke cleared, Schoen clearly had the final call. And Mara accepted it, albeit crestfallen.
Mara looks like a very nice man, but he had no leadership presence at all. Having worked for three Fortune 100 companies (two in the top ten), it's pretty easy to spot someone who is not C-suite material. And Mara doesn't. I worked for Dave Wichmann, former CEO for UNH, when he was running the M&A department, and that guy commanded a room when he walked into it. People wanted to hitch their wagons to the guy and follow his lead.
I'd be curious what the cadence was with the Bills and what Schoen was exposed to working for Beane who worked for Terry Pegula, the owner and self-made billionaire. And how that experience may have helped him manage someone like Mara...
I agree that Mara does not appear to have the that dominating persona - looked like a doddering old man, frankly.
Yes, Barkley is a revenue generator for the team. But he was also the best offensive player by far. That cannot be po-poed in their view, Mara and McDonnell clinging to run 1st offense. And it also shows that Mara may not believe in DJ's ability to lead the offense by himself.
Those of you who are taking a dim view of John Mara I think are missing a key point.
Mara has clearly been himself throughout the time he's been running the franchise. It was under his rein that Eli was drafted, Jerry Reese was promoted to GM, Tom Coughlin was hired, and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I find it hard to believe that he was any different then, then he is now.
The real issue is how Jerry Reese lost his grip on the team, because he started out brilliantly, and the caliber of GM's and their decisions that succeeded him.
Clearly when Gettleman was hired the old boy network was in full form, and they may have taken the little snippets that Mara and McDonnell dropped more to heart and felt they had to give in to them periodically. Take the hiring Dave Gettleman, and subsequent hiring of Ben McAdoo and of Joe Judge and his hiring of Jason Garrett. Much was made of Mara's role in these decisions. First you had Ernie Accorsie brought in to assist, and then wink wink nod nod and Gettleman was hired with Abrams a clear successor tapped. Then when Gettleman gets hired McAdoo was promoted when the Eagles showed interest in him. That shows the same time of opinion rendered and effecting the FO's decision. When McAdoo gets booted (which there was a quick exit) It was widely circulated that Mara called Belichick and was told Judge would be better than what you had there before. This was another wink, wink nod, nod hire, and Garrett was a product of Mara telling Judge how much he wouldn't mind having Garrett back in the fold. There was a clear difference in philosophies between Judge and Garrett.
I find it interesting. I perceive that Mara's comments, and McDonnell's comments like we are seeing in the Hard Knocks videos probably had a more outsize impact then they do now.
This is what gives me hope. The current Front Office seems to be much more professional then all that. They clearly accept what Mara says, then they run things through their "process" and make the decisions that the GM thinks are sound. They are managing McDonnell and Mara based on football acumen instead of wink, wink, nod nod. We are hearing things like football studies, stats, data, and in depth personality analysis being used to make football analysis.
Mara has allowed Schoen to surround himself with a lot of strong football intelligence, and he backs down when they tell him they are making football decisions and how they justify it.
So for me the issue is that what really went wrong was the end game of Reese's regime, and the duration of Gettleman's, how seemingly differently things are going now, and how professionally the FO staff was put together and both operates and behaves in my opinion.
That's my take away -- the Giants GM is not operating like a clown ship right now. They are operating like a professional team, with a lot of strong voices and football acumen in the room. They care deeply and are passionate about what they are doing, and they seem competent to me.
They may make mistakes from time to time, but they seem to be able to recover from it, make improvements and move forward. Again this gives me a lot of hope.
I am certainly not concerned that Mara and McDOnnell, does not allow the professional staff to do what they is is best for the team - these three shows we have watched clearly show this.
No one is defending anything
Now answer the question I posed instead of a childish and inaccurate response
What is telling is Schoen does not come off as a sentimental dummy. Quite the opposite. Which is why it's harder to believe there wasn't a thumb on the scale, if not an outright mandate from John, in regards to past personnel decisions. It would jive with John's public comments that indicate that he does have a major say in big decisions.
which I understand.
Schoen comes across very nicely. Daboll not so much...
Mara... well he meddles but seems to let Joe make the decisions, which is good.
McDonnell appears clueless....
Those of you who are taking a dim view of John Mara I think are missing a key point.
Mara has clearly been himself throughout the time he's been running the franchise. It was under his rein that Eli was drafted, Jerry Reese was promoted to GM, Tom Coughlin was hired, and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I find it hard to believe that he was any different then, then he is now.
While John Mara reportedly played a role in convincing his father to sign off on Accorsi's plan to acquire Eli Manning, he was not running the franchise when they made either that decision or the decision to hire Tom Coughlin.
Reese was a logical choice to succeed Accorsi as one of his deputies (and candidate endorsed by him), but I guess I'll give Mara minimal credit for not hiring his brother Chris for the job.
While I would contend that George Young and Accorsi deserve the lion's share of the credit for the Giants four Super Bowl titles, the decision to turn the search for Reese's replacement over to Accorsi is a damning indictment of Mara's ability to run the franchise. It was a complete farce.
Who put together the teams post 2011 that gave us 10 years of lousy football? Who hired McAdoo? Who fired McAdoo?
The Giants are a family business and have always operated that way. And families have disagreements and power struggles. Fans may wish that this isn’t a family business, but look around at how other teams are structured and which ones have been most successful long term.
Much of the successes you describe were generated by Wellington Mara - not by John Mara. We have a business that has operated for 100 years with the same ownership and has won championships (I believe) in every decade except one (1970s). They have not changed the way they do business except once (1970s). One can claim that the business is too “old school” but that business has had success in each of the past 4 decades. The business has changed and will continue to change but it is hard to argue with the way it has been operated. So the changes are slow in coming.
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we are definitely getting a view of how things actually work at Giants central.
Those of you who are taking a dim view of John Mara I think are missing a key point.
Mara has clearly been himself throughout the time he's been running the franchise. It was under his rein that Eli was drafted, Jerry Reese was promoted to GM, Tom Coughlin was hired, and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I find it hard to believe that he was any different then, then he is now.
While John Mara reportedly played a role in convincing his father to sign off on Accorsi's plan to acquire Eli Manning, he was not running the franchise when they made either that decision or the decision to hire Tom Coughlin.
Reese was a logical choice to succeed Accorsi as one of his deputies (and candidate endorsed by him), but I guess I'll give Mara minimal credit for not hiring his brother Chris for the job.
While I would contend that George Young and Accorsi deserve the lion's share of the credit for the Giants four Super Bowl titles, the decision to turn the search for Reese's replacement over to Accorsi is a damning indictment of Mara's ability to run the franchise. It was a complete farce.
the biggest impact mara had was not firing coughlin, which was a non-decision but against the grain.
the reality is i think he knows his odds of finding good football people sucks which is why hes generally been hesitant to fire people.
Who put together the teams post 2011 that gave us 10 years of lousy football? Who hired McAdoo? Who fired McAdoo?
The Giants are a family business and have always operated that way. And families have disagreements and power struggles. Fans may wish that this isn’t a family business, but look around at how other teams are structured and which ones have been most successful long term.
Much of the successes you describe were generated by Wellington Mara - not by John Mara. We have a business that has operated for 100 years with the same ownership and has won championships (I believe) in every decade except one (1970s). They have not changed the way they do business except once (1970s). One can claim that the business is too “old school” but that business has had success in each of the past 4 decades. The business has changed and will continue to change but it is hard to argue with the way it has been operated. So the changes are slow in coming.
I dispute that Wellington was running the FO - in his final years John Mara was in charge -- Wellington Mara was in decline
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In comment 16554589 Biteymax22 said:
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A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
That Spy is Wellington Mara's grandson... its a family business its literally asinine to think family isnt going to be involved.
2. i assume the wilkins pursuit was never mentioned because they were already basically set with burns. if they had a salary agreed with burns that means they'd been negotiating at least a few days prior to day of FA.
3. interesting that they sent an offer to singletary before knowing barkley's decision.
4. schoen's "he's their top guy" comment re eluemenor was present tense, so i now think he was referencing bricillo and the pro scouting department and that they graded him as the best T available in FA (not that he was the raiders top guy past tense). the top paid FA OT was conspicuously absent from the show and that is notable because it was Mike Onwenu who also played G/T for Bricillo. Both players had similar grades last year at RT, both players a non-prototypes for T which is why they've also played some guard, it's not impossible bricillo had a slight preference toward elumeanor and it then made no sense to shop for the more expensive player. or maybe they just didnt count Onwenu because NE was clear they were going to bring him back and they had a big deal fairly quickly? either way look at the OT board, only 3 OTs got paid more than eluemeanor so for him to be the "top guy" they only had to like him better than those guys.
eluemeanor is interesting, but damn would it have been nice to slot in Hunt and Runyan. Hunt has almost entirely played RG too so that probably would have meant Runyan at LG.
also interesting jets were interested in runyan since rodgers played with him, the way their org operates right now there is no way that wasnt something he'd weighed in on.
But the discussion of meddling often misses the most important points and focuses on dumb ones.
It doesn’t matter the extent other owners are involved or if they should be. It’s unreasonable to expect any owner would not have influence on their multi-billion dollar baby.
But it would also be unreasonable to suggest that the Mara’s do not care about their perception. As we've seen them try hard to downplay their involvement. The sad thing is that we are seeing the sanitized version on Hard Knocks given that.
The only important thing is the dark matter. We cannot see it any more than we can see John Mara banging the gavel on dumb choices. But we can see what their forces exert on their surroundings.
While the argument that Mara is calling the shots is dumb. It is insane to suggest that it was on the table for JS to let Jones really test the market and perhaps leave. And that exerted a force on the negotiations that took away JS’s leverage. Hard to say it didn’t when team Jones had an ask of $50M with his resume. Any other team doesn't counter, they laugh, and laugh.
That is what makes us laughed at, why players on other teams speak up. Beyond committing to Jones we got swindled by a guy that wouldn't start for most teams. While we took a hard negotiating line with a player that starts for most teams. Even KT said this. How many people in the locker room felt the same?
The same emotionally heavy decision making we have seen on their best behavior in Hard Knocks fits into a nice horizon. The force that the Mara's exert makes us one of the worst teams in the league, accross various GMs and coaches the mark of that force is clear.
Muddle in the meddling semantics all you want. It comes down to if you want to let the Mara's convice you to downplay their involvement and impact. Tell you this regime is different and look at how they redid all the technology in the draft room! They have figured it out!
Or you are willing to sit in the uncomfortable truth that we are a low ceiling team?
As long as they keep selling enough of you on that next coach, that next GM turning it around! He's learned his lesson! He will be hands off! Daboll is the best coach we've had since TC by far. And this is heading in a direction that we lose him. Sad.
P.S. Tim looks worse, I shudder to think that we'd actually be worse off without John.
Agree, I think Mara is trying to downplay the amount he gets involved, but I have a hard time not seeing his involvement in the SB saga, and what is arguably the most head-scratching contract in Giants history. We deserve the ridicule we get for that one.
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Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
I think Mara said "he's our most popular player". That was his big concern. That's messed up.
His only concern should be building a winner regardless of whether it includes the "fan favorites". Once they build a winner, there will be plenty of popular guys and fan favorites and that will generate the most revenue.
yeah hackett is a moron though, and while im sure his opinion was involved rodgers has more sway in that org than anyone other than woody. he's changed how woody operates the team in some areas more than douglas or saleh were able to.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
I think Mara said "he's our most popular player". That was his big concern. That's messed up.
His only concern should be building a winner regardless of whether it includes the "fan favorites". Once they build a winner, there will be plenty of popular guys and fan favorites and that will generate the most revenue.
That really stood out for me in E3. And that compounded the old school thinking Mara revealed in E2 when he basically said Barkley was our offense and it's hard for him to imagine losing Barkley.
He loves his 1980s view of the running game, and he loves seeing those #26 jerseys in the crowd for home games.
Now, you have to give the old man some credit. He broke tradition by hiring a GM who had no ties to the Giants Way. So, getting out of that box was a major step for Mara. And it seems to me it's clear he's willing to let Schoen move the Giants into modern football thinking.
At least we've removed on half of the Jones-Barkley Era. It's too bad Schoen couldn't deliver on the other part - numerous times...
and howie roseman, ryan poles, nick caserio were the ones lined up to pay saquon.
There will be discussion about players leading up to the pick--we know they work that way. This will be fascinating to see on camara and what players are discussed/debated. Obviously we hope get some specifics regarding what actually went down on any trade talks (no way do we get a full access look, but there major insights, no doubt).
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Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
I think Mara said "he's our most popular player". That was his big concern. That's messed up.
His only concern should be building a winner regardless of whether it includes the "fan favorites". Once they build a winner, there will be plenty of popular guys and fan favorites and that will generate the most revenue.
That really stood out for me in E3. And that compounded the old school thinking Mara revealed in E2 when he basically said Barkley was our offense and it's hard for him to imagine losing Barkley.
He loves his 1980s view of the running game, and he loves seeing those #26 jerseys in the crowd for home games.
Now, you have to give the old man some credit. He broke tradition by hiring a GM who had no ties to the Giants Way. So, getting out of that box was a major step for Mara. And it seems to me it's clear he's willing to let Schoen move the Giants into modern football thinking.
At least we've removed on half of the Jones-Barkley Era. It's too bad Schoen couldn't deliver on the other part - numerous times...
I agree.
There will be discussion about players leading up to the pick--we know they work that way. This will be fascinating to see on camara and what players are discussed/debated. Obviously we hope get some specifics regarding what actually went down on any trade talks (no way do we get a full access look, but there major insights, no doubt).
i think most of the interesting stuff will be trade related.
the talks with NE obviously but also the tease about atlanta possibly offering to trade up. were there any other trade discussions we don't know about? was there someone falling out of round 1 they tried to move up for in round 2?
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to keep Saquon but everyone also likes Brandon Brown and Chris Rossetti and they seemed to want to bring him back as well.
and howie roseman, ryan poles, nick caserio were the ones lined up to pay saquon.
Paying Saquon certainly makes more sense to a team like Philly, that doesn't need him one bit, and that has plenty of extra money.
It does not make sense for the Giants, who had little money to spend, a lot of holes to fill, and spent 6 seasons fielding a bottom 5 offense with Barkley on it.
Did it seem like Schoens conversation about matching Saquons offer (12.5/yr 25 gtd) “ans then we have a press conference announcing that he’s staying a giant” was a quick conversation.
And then when he described it to Mara , he made it seem much more equivocal?
Editing?
My misperception?