that at times I come across as a Giants apologist and at other times a Giants basher...
However, what we have here is an author who has no clue about the reality of the New York Giants current situation.
Casual fans of the team think Barkley has been some sort of wonder weapon. He hasn't. "If the Giants lose Barkley, they have nothing."
They also don't want to understand or can't understand how the team is financially committed to Jones for one more year. That doesn't mean the team could not have drafted one of the second tier QBs in the draft, but not doing so is very much open to debate (which we have seen here for months).
If anything, as Rich Eisen and Tom Pelissero have already said, this show has done an awesome job of showing how decisions are made league-wide.
This guy wrote this piece because - right or wrong - he has preconceived notions of the value of Jones and Barkley.
Seriously, some people live in a fantasy land. Of course owners care about that sort of thing. Are we brain dead here?
That's fine and I don't disagree. However, it makes Schoen's job much more difficult. I'd imagine it made March of 2023 especially difficult for a young GM inheriting two players who Mara loves.
They are making football decisions DESPITE John Mara's misplaced concerns about Saquon. Emphasize the most critical positions. Invest in the OL - good OLs make lesser quartbacks and other skill positions look better than they are. Invest in DL/front 7 - good DLs make the lesser players in the secondary better.
And, there seem to be more of these pure football, GM decisions being made than the fan driven owner decisions.
As always, I am also, I hate to use the term but I can't think of a better word at the moment, worried whether the coaches hired, the players drafted, and the free agents signed will work out. I am rooting for success.
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
Exactly…I haven’t understood why many don’t see that. The teams are in different places, they’re not apples to apples.
The Eagles have a lot of talent (although lost some on their OL and DL), and paying $13 million for Saquon in the hopes he pushes them over the top makes some sense
The Giants have so many needs everywhere that paying $13 million to a RB, with whom the offense has been horseshit the last few years anyway would have been foolish
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
I actually fully expect this. Barkley is going to look great in Philly. But a star RB is a luxury not a foundational piece. NYG absolutely made the right move in getting away from an offense built around a feature back and not tying up to much cap dollar into a low value position. This doesn't even account for the injury history plus age on Barkely specifically.
I think it reignited this belief in DJ from the FO and I'm starting to believe (watching the show) that Daboll/Schoen bought in as well, hence signing him to that deal.
IF they hadn't done that, dumping SB would make all the sense in the world. They would be Carolina - starting over.
I disagree in a way. Mara is getting slammed. This has put him out of hiding in the background which he has generally gotten away with for many years.
Here is Adam Schein calling Mara a buffoon. The best thing for the franchise I believe is getting this criticism out there.
Mara looks very poorly for using the term "popular" as a reason to keep Barkley. Link - ( New Window )
I disagree totally with this and actually think it makes Mara and the giants look better. Mara was being honest about SB being the most popular. This is still a business and that matters. There is also a strong personal connection there.
But even with that he let his GM make the smart call and let him walk. To me it’s impressive.
I think their fawning over Barkley is embarrassing. I keep feeling like I'm watching Arrested Development and they're talking about Ann.
"Him?"
They talk about him like he's Tyreek Hill or some other difference-making non-QB. He never was. All three episodes I felt like I was being gaslit.
That he saved them from themselves and went to Philly doesn't make them any less dumb for wanting to pay him.
Mara just confirms what many of us thought: he doesn't get modern football and the big decisions absolutely end with him. Seeing Schoen tell Barkley's agent "This one goes above me" and then immediately calling Mara tells you all you need to know about who the real GM is. Mara was also in the room when they discussed signing Lock - and that was after hearing Schoen and Daboll spout bullshit about NY being tougher on QBs than other places. And finally, hearing Schoen say "We either draft a QB or get a weapon for Daniel"...what kind of approach is that to the position? You either have a QB or you don't.
I know these guys don't sound as utterly stupid as Gettleman, but I'm not sure how much better off we are.
RE: RE: RE: They're not doing themselves any favors
I think their fawning over Barkley is embarrassing. I keep feeling like I'm watching Arrested Development and they're talking about Ann.
"Him?"
They talk about him like he's Tyreek Hill or some other difference-making non-QB. He never was. All three episodes I felt like I was being gaslit.
That he saved them from themselves and went to Philly doesn't make them any less dumb for wanting to pay him.
Mara just confirms what many of us thought: he doesn't get modern football and the big decisions absolutely end with him. Seeing Schoen tell Barkley's agent "This one goes above me" and then immediately calling Mara tells you all you need to know about who the real GM is. Mara was also in the room when they discussed signing Lock - and that was after hearing Schoen and Daboll spout bullshit about NY being tougher on QBs than other places. And finally, hearing Schoen say "We either draft a QB or get a weapon for Daniel"...what kind of approach is that to the position? You either have a QB or you don't.
I know these guys don't sound as utterly stupid as Gettleman, but I'm not sure how much better off we are.
You're only partially correct.
Mara doesn't look good.
But in the end, Schoen let Barkley go, which undermines your point.
GT takeaway is that Mara is the "real GM". Too funny. Literally we saw Schoen make the call directly against Mara's wishes. But hey, let's not let let the basic facts get in the way of our hate/biases.
Last year when Barkley was out. It doesn't always show up in his individual stats, but he does impact how defenses defend the Giants and makes things easier for the offense. Multiple players have said this.
Too many people are either overrating SB, or completely not recognizing the value that he added. That's why the team wanted him back, but were not going to overpay and not at the cost of being to address other areas. The back and forth discussions we see are essential part of the process. I don't aspect many to get that. Most just see the world as back and white. The team was 100% right to consider things, both sides, and ultimately made the right call.
Last year when Barkley was out. It doesn't always show up in his individual stats, but he does impact how defenses defend the Giants and makes things easier for the offense. Multiple players have said this.
Too many people are either overrating SB, or completely not recognizing the value that he added. That's why the team wanted him back, but were not going to overpay and not at the cost of being to address other areas. The back and forth discussions we see are essential part of the process. I don't aspect many to get that. Most just see the world as back and white. The team was 100% right to consider things, both sides, and ultimately made the right call.
Barkley only missed three games. The Giants offensive line was historically bad and the team had one of its worst scoring performances in team history.
It's pretty clear, in the modern NFL, paying a running back a big second contract is often proved to be a mistake. Both from a player wear and tear perspective, but also the fact that the rules offer advantages to passing teams.
People will point to CMC, but for every CMC, there are multiple Zeke Elliots.
I'd even say the Eagles would've been smarter to use the Barkley funds elsewhere on the roster - anyone they put behind the Oline seems to find success, and at a bargain price.
RE: RE: RE: They're not doing themselves any favors
I think their fawning over Barkley is embarrassing. I keep feeling like I'm watching Arrested Development and they're talking about Ann.
Sometimes you are full of crap. And on this you are full of crap. Mara wanted him back and so did McDonnell. No one else. And even Mara didn't fight too hard.
And I say this as someone who wanted Barkley gone, is that the league seems to agree more with Mara than Schoen.
Barkley had multiple offers and ultimately signed a pretty big deal with a team that many here are envious of when it comes to personnel decisions.
Barkley was not right for us as a player, but I don't understand how some of you don't get the fact that Mara, as owner, would have an interest in keeping around his best player and most popular player. He owns a football team AND running a business. That's a pretty heavy pull towards Barkley from his perspective and yet he still let Schoen make the call.
like the Giants let prime Barry Sanders or Adrian Peterson walk. Barkley is NONE of those players.. not even close. Barkley thinks he is CMC.. he's not..
The Giants were BEYOND smart to move on because their team is NOT in a position to pay a running back big dollars..
He was willing again to pay him after 2023. Someone else just paid more.
who was that somebody else?
couldn't have been a guy considered to be the best gm in football who in the last 7 years accumulated 1 sb ring, 2 exec of the year wins, playoffs in 6/7, division wins in 3/7, hired 2 first time head coaches with career winning records - and all without an elite QB - could it?
RE: RE: RE: They're not doing themselves any favors
I think their fawning over Barkley is embarrassing. I keep feeling like I'm watching Arrested Development and they're talking about Ann.
"Him?"
They talk about him like he's Tyreek Hill or some other difference-making non-QB. He never was. All three episodes I felt like I was being gaslit.
That he saved them from themselves and went to Philly doesn't make them any less dumb for wanting to pay him.
Mara just confirms what many of us thought: he doesn't get modern football and the big decisions absolutely end with him. Seeing Schoen tell Barkley's agent "This one goes above me" and then immediately calling Mara tells you all you need to know about who the real GM is. Mara was also in the room when they discussed signing Lock - and that was after hearing Schoen and Daboll spout bullshit about NY being tougher on QBs than other places. And finally, hearing Schoen say "We either draft a QB or get a weapon for Daniel"...what kind of approach is that to the position? You either have a QB or you don't.
I know these guys don't sound as utterly stupid as Gettleman, but I'm not sure how much better off we are.
If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
like the Giants let prime Barry Sanders or Adrian Peterson walk. Barkley is NONE of those players.. not even close. Barkley thinks he is CMC.. he's not..
The Giants were BEYOND smart to move on because their team is NOT in a position to pay a running back big dollars..
Not to mention, and maybe I'm nitpicking, but for a player who's been touched by god, he seemed to take himself out of the game often because he was gassed, or am I off on that?
RE: RE: RE: RE: They're not doing themselves any favors
like the Giants let prime Barry Sanders or Adrian Peterson walk. Barkley is NONE of those players.. not even close. Barkley thinks he is CMC.. he's not..
The Giants were BEYOND smart to move on because their team is NOT in a position to pay a running back big dollars..
Nice view behind the scenes, to me JS come off looking the way a GM should - decisions aren't personal, its a business and $$ needs to be allocated appropriately. Mara & Timmy were cringeworthy. I think JS has learned not to let Mara influence his decisions so much, if he gets fired, go down doing things the way he thinks they should be done.
SB was a luxury that some teams could afford, but not the Giants with so many holes to fill. The right approach in my opinion, especially if we want to go to a more downfield passing oriented offense.
He was willing again to pay him after 2023. Someone else just paid more.
So maybe the takeaway is that Barkley is worth more in the eyes of NFL talent evaluators and executives than he is in the eyes of most here?
Barkley still has plenty of talent and he is the correct player for teams looking for that final piece. For $12.5 mill and $26 gtd, he was not what the Giants needed at this time.
At this point in time, for about the same money they got Runyon. It can could be argued the Runyon will do more for the Giants than Barkley would, right now.
Nice view behind the scenes, to me JS come off looking the way a GM should - decisions aren't personal, its a business and $$ needs to be allocated appropriately. Mara & Timmy were cringeworthy. I think JS has learned not to let Mara influence his decisions so much, if he gets fired, go down doing things the way he thinks they should be done.
SB was a luxury that some teams could afford, but not the Giants with so many holes to fill. The right approach in my opinion, especially if we want to go to a more downfield passing oriented offense.
How can you have a downfield offense, with a QB that can't get the ball down field?
everyone giving Mara a hard time, must have missed Morgan telling Schoen that he had to speak with Tepper about the Burns trade. Unfortunately, GMs don't have carte blanche on decision making when it comes to popular/talented players being moved
As with many things, I think a lot of one's opinions may be largely formed by their expectations going into this.
I didn't really have any expectations so I don't really have any strong opinions on what I've seen so far.
Also, since this is the first time this was done, we have no other teams to compare the Giants to.
I do think this will probably be the last time NFL Films/HBO does this, largely because of all the heat the Giants seem to be taking thus far.
I don't think any other team will want any part of it.
In the end, all that matters are the results of these decisions (obviously), not how they came to them or the comments made while making them, body language or any other highly subjective things.
Nice view behind the scenes, to me JS come off looking the way a GM should - decisions aren't personal, its a business and $$ needs to be allocated appropriately. Mara & Timmy were cringeworthy. I think JS has learned not to let Mara influence his decisions so much, if he gets fired, go down doing things the way he thinks they should be done.
SB was a luxury that some teams could afford, but not the Giants with so many holes to fill. The right approach in my opinion, especially if we want to go to a more downfield passing oriented offense.
How can you have a downfield offense, with a QB that can't get the ball down field?
There is a huge difference between being able to get the ball downfield and being unwilling. Jones can get the ball downfield, but will he try?
I have only seen clips and read stuff here, so my input is limited
From what I gathered, the Giants don't look stupid for the decision to not pay Barkley. But, they do look bad for how it was handled and progressed.
As Eric said, Barkley may have a great season behind the Philly OL (there are some questions there this year, though) and their offense overall and yet still be the wise choice by the Giants.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They're not doing themselves any favors
If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
It actually confirms my theory. I think they think they have their QB.
I did not want to believe this - but I think you're right.
This has been the overwhelming negative take away I've gotten from the show.
I wanted to believe that there was a faction in the FO between Schoen/Browner/Daboll (the new guys) and the old guys Abrams/ol'Timmy/Chris Mara (Jints Central) on DJ and that the contract w/ the out after this year was the compromise....
Sadly, I think I was wrong.
RE: RE: RE: They're not doing themselves any favors
I think their fawning over Barkley is embarrassing. I keep feeling like I'm watching Arrested Development and they're talking about Ann.
"Him?"
They talk about him like he's Tyreek Hill or some other difference-making non-QB. He never was. All three episodes I felt like I was being gaslit.
That he saved them from themselves and went to Philly doesn't make them any less dumb for wanting to pay him.
Mara just confirms what many of us thought: he doesn't get modern football and the big decisions absolutely end with him. Seeing Schoen tell Barkley's agent "This one goes above me" and then immediately calling Mara tells you all you need to know about who the real GM is. Mara was also in the room when they discussed signing Lock - and that was after hearing Schoen and Daboll spout bullshit about NY being tougher on QBs than other places. And finally, hearing Schoen say "We either draft a QB or get a weapon for Daniel"...what kind of approach is that to the position? You either have a QB or you don't.
I know these guys don't sound as utterly stupid as Gettleman, but I'm not sure how much better off we are.
If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
It actually confirms my theory. I think they think they have their QB.
I think they have confidence in Jones, but they aren't digging their heels in. I think it's clear they aren't/weren't afraid to try and make an upgrade, but if it wasn't there for them, they wouldn't force it. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Seeing $40M continually referenced by Schoen struck me as odd. Almost like, "see, I didn't want to pay him that." They have been pretty open about wanting to move up. Daboll saying he'd move up for Daniels. Mara talking about having palpitations if they make this deal.
People hear what they want to hear, but I don't get the sense they love Jones. Both Rico & Woodstock have said as much.
RE: I get the sense Daboll & Schoen aren't in on Jones
Seeing $40M continually referenced by Schoen struck me as odd. Almost like, "see, I didn't want to pay him that." They have been pretty open about wanting to move up. Daboll saying he'd move up for Daniels. Mara talking about having palpitations if they make this deal.
People hear what they want to hear, but I don't get the sense they love Jones. Both Rico & Woodstock have said as much.
I don't see how anyone watching this comes away with the impression that they think they are "set" at QB. If anything, it has thus far confirmed they are looking for an upgrade. (You don't use a top 4 pick on an insurance policy). That said, I suspect what bugs Go Terps is that given the inability to trade up, they didn't "settle" (my choice of word) for one of the other three lesser QBs.
- Schoen didn't really want Barkley back.
- Mara did, but let Schoen make the decision.
- We've only seen the real Daboll at the Combine and that was impressive.
- Lock is not here to compete with Jones.
- The Giants were serious about upgrading at QB.
- Daboll does love Nabers.
- There is definitely a Mara/McDonnell faction that appears to have to be managed.
- There are a lot of voices in the room, and some who we have not given enough credit to.
Seeing $40M continually referenced by Schoen struck me as odd. Almost like, "see, I didn't want to pay him that." They have been pretty open about wanting to move up. Daboll saying he'd move up for Daniels. Mara talking about having palpitations if they make this deal.
People hear what they want to hear, but I don't get the sense they love Jones. Both Rico & Woodstock have said as much.
I don't see how anyone watching this comes away with the impression that they think they are "set" at QB. If anything, it has thus far confirmed they are looking for an upgrade. (You don't use a top 4 pick on an insurance policy). That said, I suspect what bugs Go Terps is that given the inability to trade up, they didn't "settle" (my choice of word) for one of the other three lesser QBs.
We don't know how they felt about the other QBs because they haven't shown us anything on them. There's also no discussion about taking a QB later in the draft. What struck me is that Daboll said he'd like Taylor back in order to have the same QB room as last year. Also, Lock was clearly referred to as the backup more than once. There is no route to the starter job for him past a healthy Jones.
The while this feels to me like they view 2023 as an injury-riddled anomaly, not as a sign of a larger issue.
Schoen states as an argument for letting SB go that they needed funds to be allocated to the OL and "we're paying the 40 million dollars a year, we gotta find out if he's the guy"...
The Giants have done plenty to embarrass themselves on the field the last 10 years. They've won the 3rd fewest games of any team over that time period.
How the season plays out will determine whether their decisions documented on Hard Knocks embarrasses them.
If Daniel Jones flounders and gets hurt, they can't run the football, and Brian Burns puts in a nice but unremarkable season like he did in 2023 -- the Giants will probably lose a bunch and be embarrassed.
Schoen states as an argument for letting SB go that they needed funds to be allocated to the OL and "we're paying the 40 million dollars a year, we gotta find out if he's the guy"...
I literally cringed.
"We finally have to show the owner he's not the guy."
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
Well put. I believe that Barkley is likely to have a great year if healthy. JS will get beat up by the press. Unfair because nobody with the Giants was saying he was "done". They just prioritized the OL and pass rush and thus could not afford to sign him. I believe it was the right call even if Barkley does well for the next three years. There is no guarantee he would have done that with the Giants if the OL was not fixed. If he gets hurt or loses effectiveness then it is a great move by JS.
Schoen states as an argument for letting SB go that they needed funds to be allocated to the OL and "we're paying the 40 million dollars a year, we gotta find out if he's the guy"...
I literally cringed.
This was indeed embarrassing. Not knowing if "our quarterback can sling it" after giving him the largest contract in franchise history is dumb enough to do, even dumber to say out loud on HardKnocks...
See, I got a different feel from that. To me, it was Daboll questioning that they'd have the same QB room.
Want Daboll the guy initially saying he wanted Taylor back?
That's true. I just don't get the sense at all that Daboll likes Jones. I obviously could be very wrong.
Dabs went from driving a Porsche to a Buick.
When the best you can come up with is -- well it's not actually that expensive, when it's not in the shop you can prorate that it does the job, or what Porsche was available when we were Shopping -- easy to be disappointed.
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
Well put. I believe that Barkley is likely to have a great year if healthy. JS will get beat up by the press. Unfair because nobody with the Giants was saying he was "done". They just prioritized the OL and pass rush and thus could not afford to sign him. I believe it was the right call even if Barkley does well for the next three years. There is no guarantee he would have done that with the Giants if the OL was not fixed. If he gets hurt or loses effectiveness then it is a great move by JS.
Yeah - it's true that if this comes to fruition JS will get hammered by the press...the real question is - will it cost him his job.
Three things can actually be right at the same time - 1.) SB kills it with the Eagles 2.) The Giants made right move to let him walk 3.) it still costs JS/BD their jobs because the Giants offense with DJ at the helm and minus SB is NOT good and they don't win games AND the ownership group is pist about it.
I don't see him bringing up $40M multiple times. It came off to me as being annoyed he's paying a guy he didn't initially believe in this money. Does that indicate he felt pressure to lock him up? Maybe.
Schoen (and Daboll) both said a bunch of dumb shit at the Combine regarding how the Giants scout QBs and how hard it is to play in NY. Also, one of the scouts said something about Maye sounding like Daniel.
I guess it's ok to want "dawgs" at WR, but the QB has to sound like Bob Dole.
but I mostly feel like watching it only further reduces my confidence in the men running the franchise, as well as my expectations while they're in charge. It also feels like a much younger mentality on display, so get off my lawn.
In comment 16555251 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Outrage!
Seriously, some people live in a fantasy land. Of course owners care about that sort of thing. Are we brain dead here? ///
That's fine and I don't disagree. However, it makes Schoen's job much more difficult. I'd imagine it made March of 2023 especially difficult for a young GM inheriting two players who Mara loves.
Sean, this can't be stated enough, to the point of overstating. Shecky's post (HK 2) was spot on in terms of timing of SB vs DJ, tag or deal. What made it more difficult for Schoen was that Mara had his thumb on the scales for both players and their agents.
It should be clear by now that JS is not now and was not then a big proponent of giving SB a big payday. But his 'holdout' on his $$, forcing the pivot to the DJ contract had to be galling, thus the frequent sardonic references to the $40mm, facilitated by Mara and SB.
The way people are making this out to seem just doesn't make sense to me. We weren't good with him, we're doing the right thing by trying a different strategy.
Not once did find a single element of the show embarrassing or unflattering to any NYG front office figures.
I swear people have way too much fucking time on their hands. The media is actually analyzing this shit? It's a fucking tv show.
Carry on.
Yeah, you can nitpick here and there (it's what we do now), but nothing has come off as "wow, WTF?" And I would actually say that at times this is making the team look really good.
Who the fuck cares what Mara said? They let him walk.
Also, Barkley was popular. He was a productive player here. Eagles think so too. Mara was just being honest WTF is wrong with that? Nothing that's what.
Who the fuck cares what Mara said? They let him walk.
Also, Barkley was popular. He was a productive player here. Eagles think so too. Mara was just being honest WTF is wrong with that? Nothing that's what.
They got outbid for Barkley. They didn't "let him walk". They wanted him back, and the talk surrounding him was that of a much better player than he actually is.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They're not doing themselves any favors
If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
It actually confirms my theory. I think they think they have their QB.
They tried to move up in the draft to take the QB you continue to scream about. Can you at least acknowledge this fact even if you think they should have pivoted off the missed trade up and drafted ANY other QB in round 1? You seem to gloss over the facts and push your same take time and time again. Virtually every source under the sun has stated that the Giants tried to trade up to 3 for the QB.
Or, insist on saying they have their QB and must now pay for it with their lives if they don't go 11-6 while throwing for the end all be all 30 TDs. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
so all I will say is that in the edited video I have not been impressed with Schoen. I don't really find him to have really insightful thoughts about team building and strategy, but that is not a judgment that I would stand by because I have no idea what he is saying in other scenes that I am sure met the cutting room floor because the Giants exercised some control over what could be used. All we could do is base our opinion off of edited footage and know that the truth could be something else.
The one thing I will say is that the actions by Schoen with regard to
Barkley I think was the correct one and I did take some comfort in knowing that he would not do it even though his owner kind of wanted him to do so. Any time you go against the wish of your boss and let your best/most popular player go to your rival that is a gutsy move.
I do not believe the Front Office is embarrassing themselves
While I have nothing else to compare it to, in terms of NFL teams insider operations, what I see, seems more than competent, I think they seem like they really know what they are doing and are functioning very well.
Anyone who disagrees with that, has unreasonable expectations or just doesn't get the Giants' situation, nor their plan of execution.
Who the fuck cares what Mara said? They let him walk.
Also, Barkley was popular. He was a productive player here. Eagles think so too. Mara was just being honest WTF is wrong with that? Nothing that's what.
They got outbid for Barkley. They didn't "let him walk". They wanted him back, and the talk surrounding him was that of a much better player than he actually is.
Ok. That's embarrassing? Not from Philly's POV I guess.
So many things to get mad at with this team. Letting Barkley walk, something YOU advocated for, isn't one of them yet here we are..."EMBARRASSING!!" And why? Because the GM said "come back to us with the offer"
Hard to read much into any of this crap but I tend to agree. And again, follow the actions not the words. Barkley left. As far as I am concerned both parties wanted to part ways and how do I come to this conclusion? They aren't together anymore!
I don't think they are embarrassing themselves at all.
And I am definitely happy to get the behind the scenes glimpse of how it all works - and they function very much the same as many of the other companies I've ever worked for or worked with...
I don't see him bringing up $40M multiple times. It came off to me as being annoyed he's paying a guy he didn't initially believe in this money. Does that indicate he felt pressure to lock him up? Maybe.
And let's face it, they were hired precisely because they convinced Mara that they could make it work with DJ as the centerpiece of the offense. When Daboll schemed his magic in 2022, Mara declared that the Giants were back because of DJ, thereby justifying the idiotic decision to draft him in the first place, and naturally had to follow through with that hideously back breaking contract.
Having watched three episodes now and seeing the virtual eyes rolling from both of them (Schoen's "can he sling it?" and Daboll's "you mean it will be the same quarterback room again!?!") there isn't a doubt in my mind now that Schoen and Daboll can't move on from DJ soon enough.
Why in God's name would SB want to come back? He carried this team without any semblance of an offense whatsoever during his entire tenure here! Yes he hasn't done well consistently. But who could with DJ at quarterback, a mishmash of mediocre receivers and a resolutely horrid offensive line? Barkley is now the centerpiece of an elite offense featuring an excellent quarterback and offensive line as well as playmakers who are arguably his equal at their respective positions. Barring injury, he will be the NFL all pro running back this year. And then he will have a legitimate chance at a real ring of honor - a super bowl ring.
you are often the voice of reason around here, but in this case, your bias is working against you.
Even with the edits, it's clear that Schoen wasn't keen at all in bringing back Barkley. The only possible contrary position is they still were talking to him on the day he signed with Philly, but Schoen said, "we're out."
Everything up to that point was Schoen saying he was a luxury the team could not afford.
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
Exactly…I haven’t understood why many don’t see that. The teams are in different places, they’re not apples to apples.
The Eagles have a lot of talent (although lost some on their OL and DL), and paying $13 million for Saquon in the hopes he pushes them over the top makes some sense
The Giants have so many needs everywhere that paying $13 million to a RB, with whom the offense has been horseshit the last few years anyway would have been foolish
Because it's their nature to find things to complain about when they really have no idea, like the rest of us, of what's going on.
Did Schoen offer Barkley a contract after 2022? According to Schoen himself, he did.
"I tried to give him a lot of money last year and he didn't take it."
Of course they did. But a year makes a heck of a difference. Barkley is a year old, coming off another injury-plagued season, on a team that took a major step backwards.
Different scenario now.
Again, this is coming from a guy who said trade him in October 2022. I'm no apologist for anyone here. But the situation changed.
The original sin was drafting him. That was followed by Gettleman not trading him. Then Schoen not trading him. But the contract situations in March 2023 and March 2024 were different. Barkley was coming off his second-best season as a NYG.
product they've been putting on the field the past decade has been them embarrassing themselves. Nothing in the show so far has added to that. I would criticize Mara if he forced the team to match Barkley's offer out of emotion for the player, but he didn't, so I'm not going to criticize him for being human and voicing his opinion whether right or wrong. He hired Schoen to make those decisions for him and it's up to Schoen to make the right decisions. Setting a hard limit for Barkley's numbers was the right decision. I wouldn't have paid him at the number they were willing to because Barkley is too much of a luxury for the Giant's roster right now. Some people have a good hard admitting that despite what you think of him and his time on the Giants, Barkley is a good NFL player despite losing some of his fastball from injuries. I expect him to have a very good year in Philly barring injuries, which is a real risk for him there.
product they've been putting on the field the past decade has been them embarrassing themselves. Nothing in the show so far has added to that. I would criticize Mara if he forced the team to match Barkley's offer out of emotion for the player, but he didn't, so I'm not going to criticize him for being human and voicing his opinion whether right or wrong. He hired Schoen to make those decisions for him and it's up to Schoen to make the right decisions. Setting a hard limit for Barkley's numbers was the right decision. I wouldn't have paid him at the number they were willing to because Barkley is too much of a luxury for the Giant's roster right now. Some people have a good hard admitting that despite what you think of him and his time on the Giants, Barkley is a good NFL player despite losing some of his fastball from injuries. I expect him to have a very good year in Philly barring injuries, which is a real risk for him there.
That's the weird thing. Mara didn't get his way. That's good.
My read of the situation is that if Schoen has had his way Barkley would be entering the second year of a lucrative contract (which was offered after 2022) with the Giants in 2024. That didn't materialize and they franchised him.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
My read of the situation is that if Schoen has had his way Barkley would be entering the second year of a lucrative contract (which was offered after 2022) with the Giants in 2024. That didn't materialize and they franchised him.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
My read of the situation is that if Schoen has had his way Barkley would be entering the second year of a lucrative contract (which was offered after 2022) with the Giants in 2024. That didn't materialize and they franchised him.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
I just caught up on all 3 episodes last night very cool look into how things are done. Some of these conversations are painfully awkward but I dont really see anything as overtly embarassing for the giants. the fact is they are an easy target, right now this is the main story in the NFL and drama brings attention that is their goal.
The only thing I took away from this was Mara's presence, pretty uninspiring to say the least. I think people are really overblowing his "pressure" to keep saquon, he said a couple backhanded comments but didnt really push at all imo and its completely naive to think he wouldnt have a say in a move like that.
If the reporting from last year is correct, Schoen made a respectable offer that was probably dead on arrival because of the guarantees.
I'm as surprised as anyone, but Team Barkley was correct. The market for guaranteed cash dollars paid to Barkley for the 2023, 2024, and 2025 seasons was 36M.
Set aside the money he received in 2023. I don't think being a year older, another ankle injury, and a worse performance made Barkley more valuable. Even cap inflation doesn't tell the entire story.
The Eagles have version 2024-2026 more money than the Giants offered version 2023-2025.
No way in retrospect was he taking Schoen's best and final.
we hear often from people in and around the league how the giants generally have a well run organization (onfield results aside purely in terms or organization structure and support) id venture a guess there are more than a handlful of other teams who would be coming off much worse in comparison.. i.e. the other side of the burns trade.
The Giants obviously felt that they had a choice: they could either sign SB and one low budget OL or they could get two quality OL and a Tier Two RB.
Seeing as how they had run their offense with something akin to the first option - and with spectacularly shitty results - they decided to go in a different direction in 2024. Can't blame them.
Hard Knocks isn't showing the Giants FA being stupid or incompetent or brilliant: it's showing them going through the process of evaluating where they are, where they want to be, and how a team makes decisions about making the magic happen.
I still believe they elected to permit HBO into their offices in the first place was because they knew back in November that SB wasn't coming back and they wanted to document the steps that led to his departure. What they didn't expect was for him to walk to Philadelphia for only a few dollars more than they were ready to offer.
Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
So they didn't offer Barkley a contract after 2022?
Ah…so now you are moving the bar from 2022 to 2023
Nice spin
They did not offer him a contract this off season so there was nothing to turn down
Try as you might….you’re making a fool of yourself
When Schoen said to Ed Berry earlier this offseason (as shown on Hard Knocks), "If I offer $12.5M APY with $25M guaranteed, is he a Giant?" that's not an offer?
Once Berry hesitated there, it was already over. Schoen asked for the chance to match, and then asked again if matching was good enough to sign him. If you want to claim that Schoen would have reneged in that scenario if Berry had said yes, I guess that's your prerogative, but I think you're splitting hairs on the "there was never an offer" point.
There's a lot of retreating and rationalaztion going on
Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
I just caught up on all 3 episodes last night very cool look into how things are done. Some of these conversations are painfully awkward but I dont really see anything as overtly embarassing for the giants. the fact is they are an easy target, right now this is the main story in the NFL and drama brings attention that is their goal.
The only thing I took away from this was Mara's presence, pretty uninspiring to say the least. I think people are really overblowing his "pressure" to keep saquon, he said a couple backhanded comments but didnt really push at all imo and its completely naive to think he wouldnt have a say in a move like that.
+1 Looks a lot like the corporate world I've lived in since spring of 1986. Even in the companies with an effective culture.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They're not doing themselves any favors
If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
It actually confirms my theory. I think they think they have their QB.
They tried to move up in the draft to take the QB you continue to scream about. Can you at least acknowledge this fact even if you think they should have pivoted off the missed trade up and drafted ANY other QB in round 1? You seem to gloss over the facts and push your same take time and time again. Virtually every source under the sun has stated that the Giants tried to trade up to 3 for the QB.
Or, insist on saying they have their QB and must now pay for it with their lives if they don't go 11-6 while throwing for the end all be all 30 TDs. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
They tried to move up but couldn't. Then not only did they not take a QB at 6 they didn't take a QB at all anywhere. Their one addition was Drew Lock.
Daboll and Schoen are going to be judged on Jones success or failure this season, barring a surprise turn of events like benching him after 2 games.
Joe is getting a lot of input from people that, appear, to not know shit about football.
I think Chris Rossetti sounds like he could be a random guy on BBI. Not impressed with him or his analysis at all. Haven’t been impressed, one bit, by Tim McDonnell. He’s brought absolutely zero to the show.
Been impressed with Scheon, Brandon Brown, Dabs and scout Hannah Burnett.
RE: RE: I dont get it and never will with some of you
They got outbid for Barkley. They didn't "let him walk". They wanted him back, and the talk surrounding him was that of a much better player than he actually is.
I'm not convinced of that. My gut tells me Schoen was very comfortable letting Team Barkley test the market. And he thought, because I think it was discussed at a meeting in Schoen's office, that some teams were going to have major interest in SB and conveniently knock NYG out of the bidding.
In fact, I sensed relief in Schoen and he just needed to make sure Mara didn't have cardiac arrest when the Eagles were the confirmed landing spot.
RE: There's a lot of retreating and rationalaztion going on
Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
I think the Schoen stuff with Barkley was performative too
I don't get the impression that he was actually interested outside of appeasing his boss. He wrote Barkley's "not really his number" on the markerboard and that's it. They staged it so it looked like they wanted him back and that it was Barkley who threw away the Ring of Honor for an extra million bucks. The Giants are controlling this production.
I disagree with you on Barkley. I think bw has it right. It was more of an example of managing Mara which Schoen will need to do if he has any success. He never wanted Barkley after this past season.
He would have signed him a year earlier at a number he was comfortable with, but he clearly draws a line in the sand with age and RB value.
Lastly, an organization which is successful DID pay Barkley. And the Texans were right there too among other teams as well.
I have no issue with how Schoen handled Barkley this offseason. He was managing Mara.
My read of the situation is that if Schoen has had his way Barkley would be entering the second year of a lucrative contract (which was offered after 2022) with the Giants in 2024. That didn't materialize and they franchised him.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
JFC - so you don't interpret literally letting someone walk in FA as...letting someone walk in FA? They had a number in mind and stuck to it, not even attempting to meet the offer he received. That's letting someone walk. You can certainly make the argument that they shouldn't have even entertained resigning him, but they let him walk. It's exactly what they did.
It's as if you come up with your own definitions for things so you can contort situations in ways that mean you're never wrong. In this case, it appears you only count letting Barkley walk if they, what? Put all Barkley's stuff in a garbage bag in the parking lot before physically kicking him out of the building?
That's the weird thing. Mara didn't get his way. That's good.
I think mainly because it was painfully obvious he was wrong about franchising him last year. Mara was OK with letting him walk this year only because of how things turned out, but he wanted it portrayed so that it looked like "they tried." If there was some hidden camera Hard Knocks of last offseason, I think we'd see a very different picture. Mara's quotes say as much.
Are the Giants embarrassing themselves on Hard Knocks?
He was given a 3 yr 37.5 mil dollar deal with 26 million gtd
This deal is coming off an additional season of wear and tear, a worse season and from a perennial Super Bowl contender
The NY Giants offered Barkley a worse deal than this a year ago and decided to tag him and sign Jones to 4/160 instead of tagging him and signing Barkley to 3/36 back then
In fact we even reportedly pulled the offer we made earlier in the season to him when he was leading the NFL in rushing after 9 weeks and the team was 7-2
Schoen even says on the show to allow Barkley to test the market
They never allowed Jones to test the market when they had a 1/29 tag available for him that would of cost a team 2 first rounders to sign him to. The Giants had match rights anyway . No team ever would have considered such a ridiculous move but we didnt
Thats why the Giants dont look good over Barkley-Jones
The market showed how out of touch we were. Barkley was offered a better deal more than a year and a half later by a much better team and after he played worse.
If Jones had been tagged last season and he now hit FA, whats his market value? 1 yr 10 mil ?
Looks to me like Schoen was being realistic about Barkley. I even think Barkley wouldn't have stayed had the Giants matched. Past negotiations seem to have hurt the relationship, plus Barkley has a lot of connections with Pennsylvania beyond playing at Penn State.
Schoen tried, but it seems like he pretty much knew Barkley wasn't going to be staying.
The writer ignores the Burns deal. Giants thought it would take a first rounder, maybe two. The Giants made a great deal based on their value for the player.
Most of the bashing by the writer is due to the Jones deal. That didn't happen during the Hard Knocks.
RE: There's a lot of retreating and rationalaztion going on
Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
None of this is actually accurate.
Many posters on here, myself included, have said that John Mara attempts to influence decisions, that he makes his opinion known, both privately and through the press, and that he expresses his preferences in ways that can be challenging for a subordinate to navigate.
All of that has been proven true.
No one, to my knowledge, has suggested that Mara issues strict mandates, although I think there's a reasonable case to be made that he may have historically favored management candidates who were already aligned with his POV and therefore his influence was more direct (this would apply to Gettleman in particular, including the farce of the search process to identify the new GM in 2017).
Nice strawman, but you're punching at air. You won an argument that no one was having.
He was given a 3 yr 37.5 mil dollar deal with 26 million gtd
This deal is coming off an additional season of wear and tear, a worse season and from a perennial Super Bowl contender
The NY Giants offered Barkley a worse deal than this a year ago and decided to tag him and sign Jones to 4/160 instead of tagging him and signing Barkley to 3/36 back then
In fact we even reportedly pulled the offer we made earlier in the season to him when he was leading the NFL in rushing after 9 weeks and the team was 7-2
Schoen even says on the show to allow Barkley to test the market
They never allowed Jones to test the market when they had a 1/29 tag available for him that would of cost a team 2 first rounders to sign him to. The Giants had match rights anyway . No team ever would have considered such a ridiculous move but we didnt
Thats why the Giants dont look good over Barkley-Jones
The market showed how out of touch we were. Barkley was offered a better deal more than a year and a half later by a much better team and after he played worse.
If Jones had been tagged last season and he now hit FA, whats his market value? 1 yr 10 mil ?
Pretty damn good post. I agree with a lot of this, especially the Jones observation. That situation was horribly misplayed. That decision can be further compounded if:
1) Jones throws in another clunker of a season and/or...
2) One of the three QBs we passed on is the real deal
Popular essentially means- what the fans care about
He is the owner thats his responsibility
And its what fans should want as well
It should’nt override football decisions and it didnt
But there is times it should - ask any Mets fan who saw Tom Seaver traded
Obviously this isnt the same situation but the owner needs to be the one asking these questions and testing the GM to decide what the situation calls for
It's pretty clear, in the modern NFL, paying a running back a big second contract is often proved to be a mistake. Both from a player wear and tear perspective, but also the fact that the rules offer advantages to passing teams.
People will point to CMC, but for every CMC, there are multiple Zeke Elliots.
I'd even say the Eagles would've been smarter to use the Barkley funds elsewhere on the roster - anyone they put behind the Oline seems to find success, and at a bargain price.
So let me get this straight. In this little IQ test scenario you've set up. You and the Giants are high IQ and the Eagles are low IQ?
It seems pretty low IQ to think you and a basement dwelling team are smarter than the Eagles.
I personally think it was the right move for both teams. And there are other teams it would have made sense for IE the Texans where there were rumblings they offered more. They are looking pretty smart these days as well...
Maybe a good idea for you is aknowleding there is more nuance to these things and giving people IQ awards for agreeing with you is a dumb practice.
I disagree with you on Barkley. I think bw has it right. It was more of an example of managing Mara which Schoen will need to do if he has any success. He never wanted Barkley after this past season.
He would have signed him a year earlier at a number he was comfortable with, but he clearly draws a line in the sand with age and RB value.
Lastly, an organization which is successful DID pay Barkley. And the Texans were right there too among other teams as well.
I have no issue with how Schoen handled Barkley this offseason. He was managing Mara.
Maybe it was Mara that took ten years off his life the year before when they tagged SB and tried to work out a deal….
They've just elminated any plausable deniability that they are running an intelligent, well functioning organization.
There is a GM of average intelligence and leadership abilities needing to placate/fend off/pick his battles against people making decisions based on their feelings. And/or some imagined version of what fans want that I'd bet coincidentally frequently align with those feelings!
This is cemented by the fact that i'd bet they thought they would come out looking good. Their self awareness and self scouting are abysmal.
I'm reminded about a quote from the office where someone asks when they get work done with all the distractions from Michael Scott and it is something like "We find little times here and there"
That's what it feels like to watch hard knocks. Like the job of the GM is to coax spoiled billionairs with over inflated egos away from making bad, emotional decisions.
It's pretty apparent why we are one of the worst teams the last decade. And that is the only embaressment what we put on the field. This is just watching an episode of "How it's made" and having it fill in the blanks of the exact mechanisms at play. "Oh I didn't know they made the roster like that, I can see how they are so bad."
They've just elminated any plausable deniability that they are running an intelligent, well functioning organization.
There is a GM of average intelligence and leadership abilities needing to placate/fend off/pick his battles against people making decisions based on their feelings. And/or some imagined version of what fans want that I'd bet coincidentally frequently align with those feelings!
This is cemented by the fact that i'd bet they thought they would come out looking good. Their self awareness and self scouting are abysmal.
I'm reminded about a quote from the office where someone asks when they get work done with all the distractions from Michael Scott and it is something like "We find little times here and there"
That's what it feels like to watch hard knocks. Like the job of the GM is to coax spoiled billionairs with over inflated egos away from making bad, emotional decisions.
It's pretty apparent why we are one of the worst teams the last decade. And that is the only embaressment what we put on the field. This is just watching an episode of "How it's made" and having it fill in the blanks of the exact mechanisms at play. "Oh I didn't know they made the roster like that, I can see how they are so bad."
So you are using a heavily edited material to judge if JS has average intelligence and leadership abilities?
Or anyone else desperately stabbing at proving their competence.
JS expresses that they need a backup plan for Jones and for another consecutive year of idiocy they don’t draft a backup plan.
JS expresses that they can’t afford Barkley and Jones. Which overpaying Jones was an unforced error exacerbating that. He adds later that if you are patient you can get a bargain on an RB.
They aren’t patient, they end up paying Singletary double what he made last year on a longer contract for absolutely no reason given the year Singletary had. He had less TDs and a lower YPC than the year before on a similar number of yards. Only a desperate person would do that, ignoring his own good advice to boot. And that desperate stab has Singletary and Barkley at pretty much the same cap numbers the next two years.
Not being able to execute your own ideas as the decision maker doesn’t display good intelligence or leadership.
Him eating in the car and talking about his career path makes him sound like some middle manager trying to impress his mother in law. But that isn’t important just kind of more of a joke.
What is important is that his work has been unimpressive on the field, not reflecting good intelligence.
He almost lost 2 coordinators in one offseason and not because they were promoted. The infighting among the people that work for him does not reflect good leadership.
Is that the Giants were basically stuck with Jones. They liked the top 3 QBs and if they had the opportunity to get one they probably would have. The reality is that it wasn’t available and I’m sure they weren’t going to be on camera saying Jones isn’t their guy.
They said nice things about Barkley but I never got the sense Schoen thought he was a priority. I think Schoen didn’t think Barkley was going to get a big payday and would be able to sign him for less than he previously offered. Then when Barkley did get the big offer Schoen didn’t think he was worth it. I think Schoen was thinking Barkley was going to get an offer in the $10 mil per and probably would have seriously considered a match.
I do think the Giants underestimated the market for all players and didn’t adjust enough for the cap increase so they did seem a little unprepared for that but seemed to pivot well.
Now that the off-season has concluded I am very happy with the results. I didn’t want a QB this year and I think the 3 WRs were the top 3 players in the draft with Harrison being 1A and Nabers being 1B. I saw Nabers as the better player but Harrison as the sure thing.
In my opinion Barkley may have 1 good season but definitely not 3 and even if he has 3 great seasons the contract was not worth the risk based on the info we have today.
Or anyone else desperately stabbing at proving their competence.
JS expresses that they need a backup plan for Jones and for another consecutive year of idiocy they don’t draft a backup plan.
JS expresses that they can’t afford Barkley and Jones. Which overpaying Jones was an unforced error exacerbating that. He adds later that if you are patient you can get a bargain on an RB.
They aren’t patient, they end up paying Singletary double what he made last year on a longer contract for absolutely no reason given the year Singletary had. He had less TDs and a lower YPC than the year before on a similar number of yards. Only a desperate person would do that, ignoring his own good advice to boot. And that desperate stab has Singletary and Barkley at pretty much the same cap numbers the next two years.
Not being able to execute your own ideas as the decision maker doesn’t display good intelligence or leadership.
Him eating in the car and talking about his career path makes him sound like some middle manager trying to impress his mother in law. But that isn’t important just kind of more of a joke.
What is important is that his work has been unimpressive on the field, not reflecting good intelligence.
He almost lost 2 coordinators in one offseason and not because they were promoted. The infighting among the people that work for him does not reflect good leadership.
Nice spin on the coordinators and the sandwich in the car
Wink was treading in place - waiting for an HC spot, thought he was equal to or better than HC. and, look at the results he produced. addition by subtraction.
RE: Mara and his comments. He sounds like an owner who gets too emotionally attached to his players. His Dad (RIP) was the same way. He weighs in and let's the GM make the decisions. He owns the team he has a right to weigh in. Thank God he's giving JS a free hand.
Is a goober. Other than the 2 or 3 sycophants who he surrounds himself with (brown, rosetti and the white haired guy) he gets abused by everyone else in the league and also by those who work for him.
If you watch this and think that Daboll has anything other than a tolerance for working with JS then you aren't paying attention.
Many criticize Mara and others for asking questions. They read deeply into it as if the question implied what Mara wanted 100%.
But read any decision making literature since the 50s and it all says you want people to play devils advocate and ask questions. It’s a proven way to avoid groupthink. “Without SB what is our identity on offense?” is just that - a questIon. It’s not even an especially hard one hopefully. Because knowing they could lose SB they should have an answer, or at least ideas based on the potential draft. If I’m the owner of a company I’m sure as hell asking my GM questions, about the strategy and the sales.
It’s be one thing if they let that question change the course of what happened. They didn’t. Schoen had a price for a talented, oft injured RB approaching his likely drop off point. Mara didn’t push him past it and we let him walk. Seems to me they did the job of checking on the thinking and asking questions, but letting JS make the call.
The bottom line is if you think that price was too high for us for SB, letting him walk was correct , JS did it, JM let him. All good.
The rest is inferential guesswork based on edited snippets of conversations on a reality TV show.
Qould the Giants ever allow HBO to air the FO being harshly critical
Can you imagine them saying that Barkley dances too much, slow to hit the hole, has suspect vision. is a poor pass blocker and allowing that to be aired. No player would ever want to come to the team and know they might get publicly trashed by the FO.
The same goes for the QB situation. Do you think the Giants can actually allow it to be aired that they do not believe in DJ when they know they have to roll with him this year.
Common sense tells you that a lot of this is performative. A massively watered down version of things. Perhaps some real shots of real conversation like the at the combine.
I would watch with a few large grains of salt, and assume that much of what you are seeing is staged. I don't think you can pass any judgements based on seeing this. Furthermore, you judge people by the results. In the end, they let Barkley go which was the right decision for the NY Giants. That is a good result. We will have to wait and see if these decisions were correct: Burns, Runyon/Eluemunor and the rest of OL signees, Nabers, Nubin (letting McKinney walk), etc. How a show like HK portrays getting to these decisions is interesting to fans but in the end doesn't mean much. If Shoen is getting the decisions right, then he will be praised, wrong and he better cover his ass on the way out.
RE: RE: There's a lot of retreating and rationalaztion going on
Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
Quit backtracking. This is in this context of their being called 2nd least talented roster in the league, will have top 5 pick next year, etc. You yourself have repeatedly pointed to Vegas odds for the upcoming season as if it's some superior insight. They may be bad, or they may not. But many on the negative angle continue to push their view with such certainty. With all the spamming that's come from that direction, if that's not how it plays out, the spammers more than deserve to be called on it.
I have no idea what your views on the team are. But to say that there haven't been more than enough such accusations over the months is flat out denial. There have been many bold accusatory statements levied against the team over and over again in the various threads. Perhaps because you share similar though more moderate views you have neglected to notice. But the bold harsh statements are out there, whether you or those who have made them chose to admit it or not.
The Giants are not embarrassing themselves. Some of it is a bit lighter than I was expecting, but get it given you don't want to air certain opinions (particularly negative) to the public.
But some of it has been really cool. The draft stuff was great, the narrowing down the list of FA's to pursue was interesting. Just seeing these guys in their natural surroundings has been great as well. I was drawing a lot of parallels to my business watching this...which reminded me that football is a business too.
The irony is when they finally do it, it seems to be the most access and most polarizing Hard Knocks yet. First, the offseason format is far more entertaining than training camp or in season. The consequences of it, the media is running with theories.
It seems the popular viewpoint is to make this a Mara vs Schoen issue. It's concerning that it may show a lack of alignment, but it's also very possible this stuff was played up for the camera.
It does also seem that a lot of the media criticized NYG for taking Barkley at 2. But, a lot of the same media is criticizing NYG for letting Barkley go to Philly?
Good organizations aren't about everyone having the same opinions and views. There is a process you have to go through where different views and angles are considered to get to the right decision. Open discussion with varying viewpoints is healthy, not a symptom of a problem. Anyone thinking that people should have the correct answers right at their finger tips and everyone should share from the start are living in fantasy land. But that's where we are in social media today, unfortunately.
Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
Quit backtracking. This is in this context of their being called 2nd least talented roster in the league, will have top 5 pick next year, etc. You yourself have repeatedly pointed to Vegas odds for the upcoming season as if it's some superior insight. They may be bad, or they may not. But many on the negative angle continue to push their view with such certainty. With all the spamming that's come from that direction, if that's not how it plays out, the spammers more than deserve to be called on it.
Cool. And if they're bad again you'll deserve to be called out for this ridiculous stance you keep pushing...but it isn't important enough to bother remembering.
People are either using HKs to prove their opinion one way or the other. If there is video showing one thing, they are twisting their logic to make a scene meet their opinion. People spend so much time digging in on an opinion it becomes almost impossible to change despite what they see.
Did Schoen offer Barkley a contract after 2022? According to Schoen himself, he did.
"I tried to give him a lot of money last year and he didn't take it."
I wouldn't take country mouse at his word unquestioningly. He said barkley agreed to come back and give them an opportunity to match. That's not actually what happenned. he suggested it, and got no clear answer. later claiming Barkley or his agent agreed to those terms is disingenuous, If not exactly an outright lie. He said what he said and heard what he wanted to hear, at best. At worst he was simply covering his ass with his misrepresentation, which I think is actually the case.
If the reporting from last year is correct, Schoen made a respectable offer that was probably dead on arrival because of the guarantees.
I'm as surprised as anyone, but Team Barkley was correct. The market for guaranteed cash dollars paid to Barkley for the 2023, 2024, and 2025 seasons was 36M.
Set aside the money he received in 2023. I don't think being a year older, another ankle injury, and a worse performance made Barkley more valuable. Even cap inflation doesn't tell the entire story.
The Eagles have version 2024-2026 more money than the Giants offered version 2023-2025.
No way in retrospect was he taking Schoen's best and final.
Best Take. Schoen didn't want to pay for him and Barkley knew it. Schoen has been trying to spin this for over a year, and the strain of it is something he's glad to be out from under. If he could have resigned Barkley for 11 mil he would have done it, and then only because he would have had no cover not to. He knew all along what he was gonna get, that's why he never made an offer. Same reason they didn't touch McKenzie on the show with a 10 foot pole.
The Kibuki dance with Barkley was already as much as he could manage.
The "most popular player" comment was embarrassing, yes.
Otherwise no, I don't think so. The Giants have been a punchline for a long time. So any aspect of the team that's open to interpretation is likely to be interpreted negatively.
Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
So they didn't offer Barkley a contract after 2022?
Ah…so now you are moving the bar from 2022 to 2023
Nice spin
They did not offer him a contract this off season so there was nothing to turn down
Try as you might….you’re making a fool of yourself
When Schoen said to Ed Berry earlier this offseason (as shown on Hard Knocks), "If I offer $12.5M APY with $25M guaranteed, is he a Giant?" that's not an offer?
Once Berry hesitated there, it was already over. Schoen asked for the chance to match, and then asked again if matching was good enough to sign him. If you want to claim that Schoen would have reneged in that scenario if Berry had said yes, I guess that's your prerogative, but I think you're splitting hairs on the "there was never an offer" point.
There was never an offer, even with barkley's agent dangling him in front of them and the price. Schoen never made an offer, and Barkleys agent would have been lying to him had he gone back to Saquon and said the Giants had.They didn't. They tried to confirm his price, that's it, and never indicated whether or not they would match, that's just fact. Trying taking that convo into a courtroom and try to get it ruled as being an offer, good luck.
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
All very fair imo. It's also a product of such few people actually having a proven track record at GM. It's hard. Not many can do it. The hope is Schoen can grow into the job.
It's designed to be light entertainment, and I'm aware of that too
They're not digging too deep on more sensitive subjects, again a limited field of vision being fed to us, as appropriate. We're seeing/hearing what they're ok with or want us to consume. But, I can't shake the instinct they're trying to play the game with a poor hand of cards too often.
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
RE: RE: RE: RE: There's a lot of retreating and rationalaztion going on
Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
Cool. And if they're bad again you'll deserve to be called out for this ridiculous stance you keep pushing...but it isn't important enough to bother remembering.
You go right ahead and call me out. Except I've never declared they would be good, so not exactly sure what you'd be calling me out for.
RE: RE: Yeah, I think it's been clear for some time
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
By season, this new group is 1-1. It's a young roster, but firmly Schoen's at this point (no excuses to fall back on for what was inherited, despite more work being required). Which all makes this a telling year, IMO.
RE: RE: RE: Yeah, I think it's been clear for some time
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
I disagree as I don’t think that one can draw any conclusions one way or the other
Only time will tell and we all hope for the best
RE: RE: RE: RE: Yeah, I think it's been clear for some time
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
I disagree as I don’t think that one can draw any conclusions one way or the other
Only time will tell and we all hope for the best
What I've read of you here is mostly fan mode or defending the regime, no offense. To each their own. The product on the field is the biggest tell, and there's little yet to suggest the arrow's pointing up. The tv show doesn't inspire either, tho I wouldn't categorize it as embarrassing themselves. Just a ton of green in the building.
This is a huge year : the Jones situation, young bucks eg Thibs and Thomas and more need to play to pedigree, Burns is a significant gamble on potential, there's a long list of things that need to go in NYG's favor this season.
I think there's certainly enough information to go by to formulate an opinion. It's the bold certainty in light of incomplete data where people need to be more realistic about that the actually know verses believe. The two biggest mistakes I see are putting the last 10 all on the current group (IMO this current group is much better than DG in certain ways where DG was never going to succeed) and two is failing to account for the youth on the roster. With his first draft class reaching year 3, I again point to this year as important. Neal is the glaring draft pick failure, but as such a consensus player I'm not so inclined to crucify him on one pick, especially if we do so improvement with added health.
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
you know who else is very often incorrect? every NFL team that hires a new coach, drafts a QB in the first round, or signs an expensive free agent. Anyone skeptical of anyone participating in any of those things is going to be right often.
i have plenty of criticisms of how schoen has handled different things but if you dont see that he clearly has a specific plan built on positional value i think you arent looking close enough. if there are points of disagreement with that plan by all means im not saying they are invalid, but to say they dont have a plan is eyes wide shut. if anything i believe it aligns way too much with mainstream orthodoxy fans have become way too religious about.
Schoen and Daboll were more of outside the building hires though
Many criticize Mara and others for asking questions. They read deeply into it as if the question implied what Mara wanted 100%.
But read any decision making literature since the 50s and it all says you want people to play devils advocate and ask questions. It’s a proven way to avoid groupthink. “Without SB what is our identity on offense?” is just that - a questIon. It’s not even an especially hard one hopefully. Because knowing they could lose SB they should have an answer, or at least ideas based on the potential draft. If I’m the owner of a company I’m sure as hell asking my GM questions, about the strategy and the sales.
It’s be one thing if they let that question change the course of what happened. They didn’t. Schoen had a price for a talented, oft injured RB approaching his likely drop off point. Mara didn’t push him past it and we let him walk. Seems to me they did the job of checking on the thinking and asking questions, but letting JS make the call.
The bottom line is if you think that price was too high for us for SB, letting him walk was correct , JS did it, JM let him. All good.
The rest is inferential guesswork based on edited snippets of conversations on a reality TV show.
What a lame defense of Mara. Boiling down the problem with him of "liking to play devil's advocate."
If you can't look at the Jones situation and see all his public comments and our embarassing overpay of him as connected you are being willfully ignorant.
It doesn't really matter if he's asking questions or pounding on desks, it is clear that his feelings for players and ideas about "loyalty" are making this team bad.
His family is the common thread in an embarassing decade. Stop making excuses for them.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Yeah, I think it's been clear for some time
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
I disagree as I don’t think that one can draw any conclusions one way or the other
Only time will tell and we all hope for the best
What I've read of you here is mostly fan mode or defending the regime, no offense. To each their own. The product on the field is the biggest tell, and there's little yet to suggest the arrow's pointing up. The tv show doesn't inspire either, tho I wouldn't categorize it as embarrassing themselves. Just a ton of green in the building.
This is a huge year : the Jones situation, young bucks eg Thibs and Thomas and more need to play to pedigree, Burns is a significant gamble on potential, there's a long list of things that need to go in NYG's favor this season.
It’s not a matter of defending
It’s a matter of not having conclusive evidence as of yet to make a determination one way or the other
This is a big year and should be a especially for the aforementioned players you highlighted above
RE: Schoen and Daboll were more of outside the building hires though
not only outside the building hires, they were considered the top guys in that cycle. brandon brown was the runner up for harbough in LAC for gm.
if the criticism re the giants is they act like frat bros i can only imagine what the comments re dan campbell a couple summers ago when he was on HK. now he's the belle of the ball.
i get why being a nyg fan would turn someone into a skeptic but to me it comes off as naive to how difficult it is to turn a franchise around when it's key leadership needs to be entirely turned over. its enormously hard to find the right people to do that. we know that because 1/3 of the league tries to do it every january and only a small percentage of those teams succeed (and some years none succeed).
I think there's certainly enough information to go by to formulate an opinion. It's the bold certainty in light of incomplete data where people need to be more realistic about that the actually know verses believe. The two biggest mistakes I see are putting the last 10 all on the current group (IMO this current group is much better than DG in certain ways where DG was never going to succeed) and two is failing to account for the youth on the roster. With his first draft class reaching year 3, I again point to this year as important. Neal is the glaring draft pick failure, but as such a consensus player I'm not so inclined to crucify him on one pick, especially if we do so improvement with added health.
You are ignoring how thoroughly embarassing last season was. Our $40 QB was 1-5 and that win required a big comeback against a team picking ahead of us at 6.
He then got outplayed by BOTH of his backups.
The other teams we beat were either other teams ahead of us in the draft order or a team with nothing to play for. Other than 1 win. We go to the playoffs one year and follow it with 1 quality win.
We don't trade our most tradable asset on this lost season then see him go to a division rival.
Yeah sure, they could turn it around. But with who at QB? This same dud taking up way too much of the cap that is injured regularly. The worse backup QB than we had last year?
This last year has been a huge embarassment and plenty of people are rightfully calling out the organization for it.
I'm sure you'll be saying incomplete, incomplete, then scapegoating the next coach, GM and then we can repeat this fun cycle again!
I think there's certainly enough information to go by to formulate an opinion. It's the bold certainty in light of incomplete data where people need to be more realistic about that the actually know verses believe. The two biggest mistakes I see are putting the last 10 all on the current group (IMO this current group is much better than DG in certain ways where DG was never going to succeed) and two is failing to account for the youth on the roster. With his first draft class reaching year 3, I again point to this year as important. Neal is the glaring draft pick failure, but as such a consensus player I'm not so inclined to crucify him on one pick, especially if we do so improvement with added health.
You are ignoring how thoroughly embarassing last season was. Our $40 QB was 1-5 and that win required a big comeback against a team picking ahead of us at 6.
He then got outplayed by BOTH of his backups.
The other teams we beat were either other teams ahead of us in the draft order or a team with nothing to play for. Other than 1 win. We go to the playoffs one year and follow it with 1 quality win.
We don't trade our most tradable asset on this lost season then see him go to a division rival.
Yeah sure, they could turn it around. But with who at QB? This same dud taking up way too much of the cap that is injured regularly. The worse backup QB than we had last year?
This last year has been a huge embarassment and plenty of people are rightfully calling out the organization for it.
I'm sure you'll be saying incomplete, incomplete, then scapegoating the next coach, GM and then we can repeat this fun cycle again!
Manhattan/Producer/Darwinism is back for his 4th go around
I could actually acknowledge some of what you say and discuss it further in a civil way, but it's clear that's not your intention here, so I think I'll pass on that. If that's how you feel, I don't have issue with it. It's going to play out one way or the other, no?
I could actually acknowledge some of what you say and discuss it further in a civil way, but it's clear that's not your intention here, so I think I'll pass on that. If that's how you feel, I don't have issue with it. It's going to play out one way or the other, no?
it will, but by then his handle will be "pop secret".
I could actually acknowledge some of what you say and discuss it further in a civil way, but it's clear that's not your intention here, so I think I'll pass on that. If that's how you feel, I don't have issue with it. It's going to play out one way or the other, no?
it will, but by then his handle will be "pop secret".
I was going to reply and tell Orville "They should stick to popping corn". lol
The court of public opinion has influenced John Mara's decision making before, so I wouldn't discount that as a possibility moving forward.
I think one unforced error of Hard Knocks will be if Jones has a perfectly mediocre season like 2022, and the fans and media revolt.
How will Schoen handle keeping Jones on the roster after the tepid vote of confidence the story line on the program has shown?
Seems like the best case scenario for the offense this upcoming season would be something similar to 2022 - but with much less featured QB runs and more nifty short passing featuring the improved WR corp.
I think it would be much easier to move on if the success of the offense can be pinned less on "Daniel Jones - dual threat QB" and more on the Daboll/Kafka crafty offensive designs.
The court of public opinion has influenced John Mara's decision making before, so I wouldn't discount that as a possibility moving forward.
I think one unforced error of Hard Knocks will be if Jones has a perfectly mediocre season like 2022, and the fans and media revolt.
How will Schoen handle keeping Jones on the roster after the tepid vote of confidence the story line on the program has shown?
Seems like the best case scenario for the offense this upcoming season would be something similar to 2022 - but with much less featured QB runs and more nifty short passing featuring the improved WR corp.
I think it would be much easier to move on if the success of the offense can be pinned less on "Daniel Jones - dual threat QB" and more on the Daboll/Kafka crafty offensive designs.
In real world terms, I completely agree. But I think a very likely scenario to play out would be:
- Keep Jones for 2025, at the cost of 1/30M
- Draft a quarterback in the top 70 in the 2025 draft
- Groom rookie and play when ready
- Cut Jones after 2025 season
I think Schoen would get an awful lot of shit doing that after the Hard Knocks edit portrays him as thinking Jones needs to prove it or else. But I just can't imagine the Giants dump Jones short of a disaster of a season. The economics and timing of the contract (12M guaranteed on 3/5, before the draft) make it very attractive to keep Jones as a bridge.
I certainly would not place that outside the realm of possibility.
In that scenario, then, I would hope for a more robust FA QB market that we could put that $30M towards. But, barring another injury to Jones, we would still need to actually be willing to cut the cord on Daniel Jones loyalty and good feelings be damned.
Add another wild card. Manning suffers a serious injury, say a torn something. Come March 5th if he can't pass a physical 23M of that 30M is his already.
For another 7M do they let him recover, and stay on the roster? They certainly kept Shepard around as designated rehabber for a few years.
I could actually acknowledge some of what you say and discuss it further in a civil way, but it's clear that's not your intention here, so I think I'll pass on that. If that's how you feel, I don't have issue with it. It's going to play out one way or the other, no?
You just do not have any answers for what I said that is all. You are pretending it is something else. Pretending seems to be a core competency of yours.
And you people are as off about me being those others posters as you are on your takes. I'm glad you crack each other up.
But you are the actual jokes, you just do not know it because enough of you are in the same shared delusion that you are blissfully unaware.
I'm happy to have a civil discussion. If you are taking things said about the Giants personally that isn't on me. Nothing I said lacked civility towards you.
about not being able to respond to my points. IE making false accusations or pretending I'm trying to bait you.
I'm merely pointing out severe flaws in your logic. Or in the case of Bavaro giving him a very detailed answer on the question he gave me and getting no response to that.
Perhaps he'd like to make the case of why JS is smart and a great leader?
Anyway respond to the points, don't respond to the points I don't really care. Just don't act like I have some problem that I don't because you cannot refute my points.
I'm not any 4th version of anyone or trying to conduct myself in any other way than chat about the team.
I have no idea who this Orville dude is. I'm more than happy to discuss views with anyone who comes with well thought out ideas and can avoid accusing people of scapegoating, pushing their same claim down the road when the coach and GM are inevitably fired, called a pretender, childish, called a joke, and delusional, lol. That doesn't exactly instill confidence one's intentions.
I've been consistent in my view. Year one was very positive, with clearly some overachieving. Last year was a mess, but also crippled by injuries, especially early on. Not just the injuries alone, the way thing went down right out the gate, this team was all out of sorts and took a very long time to get out.
Between all that, it's hard to get a clear read on last year. I'm not convinced we didn't see the opposite side of the overachieving from year 1 only in reverse last season. By the end of the year they were playing competitive football. Is that the only way to interpret? Absolutely not. But IMO those who outright dismissing are putting too much into what they know verses what they believe.
Either way, it's a extremely young team. If you say 3 years to get a read on a draft class, we aren't even there with the year 1 class yet. Which is why I broadly see it as one good year, one bad, but ultimately remaining open to outcome with emphasis on what we see in 2024. Grace period is over, now the pressure is on.
I haven't seen anything so dramatic in 3 episodes of Hard Knocks to pull me off that view.
If the reporting from last year is correct, Schoen made a respectable offer that was probably dead on arrival because of the guarantees.
I'm as surprised as anyone, but Team Barkley was correct. The market for guaranteed cash dollars paid to Barkley for the 2023, 2024, and 2025 seasons was 36M.
Set aside the money he received in 2023. I don't think being a year older, another ankle injury, and a worse performance made Barkley more valuable. Even cap inflation doesn't tell the entire story.
The Eagles have version 2024-2026 more money than the Giants offered version 2023-2025.
No way in retrospect was he taking Schoen's best and final.
Best Take. Schoen didn't want to pay for him and Barkley knew it. Schoen has been trying to spin this for over a year, and the strain of it is something he's glad to be out from under. If he could have resigned Barkley for 11 mil he would have done it, and then only because he would have had no cover not to. He knew all along what he was gonna get, that's why he never made an offer. Same reason they didn't touch McKenzie on the show with a 10 foot pole.
The Kibuki dance with Barkley was already as much as he could manage.
RedRightHand, I don't often agree with you, but this time I do...
From the clip I saw, I thought Shoen was covering his ass for Mara and the public. I don't believe he wanted SB back.
and then pointed to a pattern of behavior displayed by fans and the media all guided by the owners designed to foist blame on others.
For saying that jokes were made about me, childish ones. And it wasn’t until you questioned my intentions while sticking your fingers in your ears and saying “na na na” that you were then called childish. So cry me a river with your victim card.
But you also want to play the victim card on the injuries. We were a shit team from the jump last year. Stop with the endless excuses.
That is your basic problem. You tried to act like you were the voice of reason coming in preaching patience. But the only problem with that is that view is quite unreasonable given what we’ve seen from the owners far beyond hard knocks but very much confirmed.
You and everyone are entitled to their views you just don’t get to pass your hopes and dreams off as logic and expect that to fly.
Much like the others who came at me for stupid shit about “who I was” and “my intentions” you do it because you don’t want to face unpleasant truths. I’m just tired of watching this shitty cycle play out again and again and you seem to be cool with that.
You have a right to be cool with it and I have a right to be not cool with that. You don’t need to try to make me out to be a bad person for it. That’s lame
2.) Anyone who believes we’re getting an authentic, transparent look into their decision making with personnel .
Don’t get me wrong, there’s some cool moments to me as a fan, particularly seeing Daboll working with draft prospects on Xs and Os. That said, I’d be hard pressed to believe that the Giants just so happened to agree to let Hard Knocks do something they’ve never done in covering a FO through free agency and the draft, before the offseason they let the “face of the franchise” walk (SB), and nearly traded up in Rd1 to replace their $40M QB, and it’s not a spin job. This wreaks of preemptive damage control.
All speculation on my part of course, but this seems like Schoen’s olive branch to Mara about moving on from “his” guys in Barkley and DJ, and allowing Mara to separate himself from the decisions and try to “save face.” That line from Mara of “I’d have trouble sleeping if he ended up in the division” re:Barkley sticks out.
Also, I certainly don’t think we’re getting real insights on any of Mara, Schoen, or Daboll’s real opinions on current players worth or anything like that. It would be stupid to televise what he thinks, even if it’s true: the window of time in which Saquon will still be a top tier back will not align with the window in time where the Giants will be contenders, so to spend that money on a running back is just bad business. His position requires him to make those judgements, but with the Lombardi’s of the world, he’d get crucified for saying it on camera.
They are wrong
Sounds like it Sean, at least from that article.
How so?
I disagree in a way. Mara is getting slammed. This has put him out of hiding in the background which he has generally gotten away with for many years.
Here is Adam Schein calling Mara a buffoon. The best thing for the franchise I believe is getting this criticism out there.
Mara looks very poorly for using the term "popular" as a reason to keep Barkley.
Link - ( New Window )
However, what we have here is an author who has no clue about the reality of the New York Giants current situation.
Casual fans of the team think Barkley has been some sort of wonder weapon. He hasn't. "If the Giants lose Barkley, they have nothing."
They also don't want to understand or can't understand how the team is financially committed to Jones for one more year. That doesn't mean the team could not have drafted one of the second tier QBs in the draft, but not doing so is very much open to debate (which we have seen here for months).
If anything, as Rich Eisen and Tom Pelissero have already said, this show has done an awesome job of showing how decisions are made league-wide.
This guy wrote this piece because - right or wrong - he has preconceived notions of the value of Jones and Barkley.
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I disagree in a way. Mara is getting slammed. This has put him out of hiding in the background which he has generally gotten away with for many years.
Here is Adam Schein calling Mara a buffoon. The best thing for the franchise I believe is getting this criticism out there.
Mara looks very poorly for using the term "popular" as a reason to keep Barkley. Link - ( New Window )
Thanks for sharing.
Yes, terrible stuff we saw here!
Giants were open to keeping Saquan, but at the right prices. What a bunch of idiots!
Seriously, some people live in a fantasy land. Of course owners care about that sort of thing. Are we brain dead here?
Seriously, some people live in a fantasy land. Of course owners care about that sort of thing. Are we brain dead here?
That's fine and I don't disagree. However, it makes Schoen's job much more difficult. I'd imagine it made March of 2023 especially difficult for a young GM inheriting two players who Mara loves.
And, there seem to be more of these pure football, GM decisions being made than the fan driven owner decisions.
As always, I am also, I hate to use the term but I can't think of a better word at the moment, worried whether the coaches hired, the players drafted, and the free agents signed will work out. I am rooting for success.
Depends.
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
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Mara hasn’t done himself any favors.
Depends.
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
Exactly…I haven’t understood why many don’t see that. The teams are in different places, they’re not apples to apples.
The Eagles have a lot of talent (although lost some on their OL and DL), and paying $13 million for Saquon in the hopes he pushes them over the top makes some sense
The Giants have so many needs everywhere that paying $13 million to a RB, with whom the offense has been horseshit the last few years anyway would have been foolish
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Mara hasn’t done himself any favors.
Depends.
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
I actually fully expect this. Barkley is going to look great in Philly. But a star RB is a luxury not a foundational piece. NYG absolutely made the right move in getting away from an offense built around a feature back and not tying up to much cap dollar into a low value position. This doesn't even account for the injury history plus age on Barkely specifically.
I think it reignited this belief in DJ from the FO and I'm starting to believe (watching the show) that Daboll/Schoen bought in as well, hence signing him to that deal.
IF they hadn't done that, dumping SB would make all the sense in the world. They would be Carolina - starting over.
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I disagree in a way. Mara is getting slammed. This has put him out of hiding in the background which he has generally gotten away with for many years.
Here is Adam Schein calling Mara a buffoon. The best thing for the franchise I believe is getting this criticism out there.
Mara looks very poorly for using the term "popular" as a reason to keep Barkley. Link - ( New Window )
I disagree totally with this and actually think it makes Mara and the giants look better. Mara was being honest about SB being the most popular. This is still a business and that matters. There is also a strong personal connection there.
But even with that he let his GM make the smart call and let him walk. To me it’s impressive.
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How so?
I think their fawning over Barkley is embarrassing. I keep feeling like I'm watching Arrested Development and they're talking about Ann.
"Him?"
They talk about him like he's Tyreek Hill or some other difference-making non-QB. He never was. All three episodes I felt like I was being gaslit.
That he saved them from themselves and went to Philly doesn't make them any less dumb for wanting to pay him.
Mara just confirms what many of us thought: he doesn't get modern football and the big decisions absolutely end with him. Seeing Schoen tell Barkley's agent "This one goes above me" and then immediately calling Mara tells you all you need to know about who the real GM is. Mara was also in the room when they discussed signing Lock - and that was after hearing Schoen and Daboll spout bullshit about NY being tougher on QBs than other places. And finally, hearing Schoen say "We either draft a QB or get a weapon for Daniel"...what kind of approach is that to the position? You either have a QB or you don't.
I know these guys don't sound as utterly stupid as Gettleman, but I'm not sure how much better off we are.
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In comment 16555241 Go Terps said:
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How so?
I think their fawning over Barkley is embarrassing. I keep feeling like I'm watching Arrested Development and they're talking about Ann.
"Him?"
They talk about him like he's Tyreek Hill or some other difference-making non-QB. He never was. All three episodes I felt like I was being gaslit.
That he saved them from themselves and went to Philly doesn't make them any less dumb for wanting to pay him.
Mara just confirms what many of us thought: he doesn't get modern football and the big decisions absolutely end with him. Seeing Schoen tell Barkley's agent "This one goes above me" and then immediately calling Mara tells you all you need to know about who the real GM is. Mara was also in the room when they discussed signing Lock - and that was after hearing Schoen and Daboll spout bullshit about NY being tougher on QBs than other places. And finally, hearing Schoen say "We either draft a QB or get a weapon for Daniel"...what kind of approach is that to the position? You either have a QB or you don't.
I know these guys don't sound as utterly stupid as Gettleman, but I'm not sure how much better off we are.
You're only partially correct.
Mara doesn't look good.
But in the end, Schoen let Barkley go, which undermines your point.
Good thing the Mara minions are there to question things on behalf of ownership ALL the time.
Too many people are either overrating SB, or completely not recognizing the value that he added. That's why the team wanted him back, but were not going to overpay and not at the cost of being to address other areas. The back and forth discussions we see are essential part of the process. I don't aspect many to get that. Most just see the world as back and white. The team was 100% right to consider things, both sides, and ultimately made the right call.
Too many people are either overrating SB, or completely not recognizing the value that he added. That's why the team wanted him back, but were not going to overpay and not at the cost of being to address other areas. The back and forth discussions we see are essential part of the process. I don't aspect many to get that. Most just see the world as back and white. The team was 100% right to consider things, both sides, and ultimately made the right call.
Barkley only missed three games. The Giants offensive line was historically bad and the team had one of its worst scoring performances in team history.
If anything, the results hurt Barkley's value.
It's pretty clear, in the modern NFL, paying a running back a big second contract is often proved to be a mistake. Both from a player wear and tear perspective, but also the fact that the rules offer advantages to passing teams.
People will point to CMC, but for every CMC, there are multiple Zeke Elliots.
I'd even say the Eagles would've been smarter to use the Barkley funds elsewhere on the roster - anyone they put behind the Oline seems to find success, and at a bargain price.
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In comment 16555241 Go Terps said:
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How so?
I think their fawning over Barkley is embarrassing. I keep feeling like I'm watching Arrested Development and they're talking about Ann.
Sometimes you are full of crap. And on this you are full of crap. Mara wanted him back and so did McDonnell. No one else. And even Mara didn't fight too hard.
Stop getting wrapped up in your own narrative.
Barkley had multiple offers and ultimately signed a pretty big deal with a team that many here are envious of when it comes to personnel decisions.
Barkley was not right for us as a player, but I don't understand how some of you don't get the fact that Mara, as owner, would have an interest in keeping around his best player and most popular player. He owns a football team AND running a business. That's a pretty heavy pull towards Barkley from his perspective and yet he still let Schoen make the call.
So maybe the takeaway is that Barkley is worth more in the eyes of NFL talent evaluators and executives than he is in the eyes of most here?
The Giants were BEYOND smart to move on because their team is NOT in a position to pay a running back big dollars..
who was that somebody else?
couldn't have been a guy considered to be the best gm in football who in the last 7 years accumulated 1 sb ring, 2 exec of the year wins, playoffs in 6/7, division wins in 3/7, hired 2 first time head coaches with career winning records - and all without an elite QB - could it?
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In comment 16555241 Go Terps said:
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How so?
I think their fawning over Barkley is embarrassing. I keep feeling like I'm watching Arrested Development and they're talking about Ann.
"Him?"
They talk about him like he's Tyreek Hill or some other difference-making non-QB. He never was. All three episodes I felt like I was being gaslit.
That he saved them from themselves and went to Philly doesn't make them any less dumb for wanting to pay him.
Mara just confirms what many of us thought: he doesn't get modern football and the big decisions absolutely end with him. Seeing Schoen tell Barkley's agent "This one goes above me" and then immediately calling Mara tells you all you need to know about who the real GM is. Mara was also in the room when they discussed signing Lock - and that was after hearing Schoen and Daboll spout bullshit about NY being tougher on QBs than other places. And finally, hearing Schoen say "We either draft a QB or get a weapon for Daniel"...what kind of approach is that to the position? You either have a QB or you don't.
I know these guys don't sound as utterly stupid as Gettleman, but I'm not sure how much better off we are.
If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
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He was willing again to pay him after 2023. Someone else just paid more.
So maybe the takeaway is that Barkley is worth more in the eyes of NFL talent evaluators and executives than he is in the eyes of most here?
How many horrible mistakes do we have to see NFL talent evaluators and executive make before we stop appealing to authority?
The Giants were BEYOND smart to move on because their team is NOT in a position to pay a running back big dollars..
Not to mention, and maybe I'm nitpicking, but for a player who's been touched by god, he seemed to take himself out of the game often because he was gassed, or am I off on that?
If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
It actually confirms my theory. I think they think they have their QB.
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In comment 16555312 Go Terps said:
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He was willing again to pay him after 2023. Someone else just paid more.
So maybe the takeaway is that Barkley is worth more in the eyes of NFL talent evaluators and executives than he is in the eyes of most here?
How many horrible mistakes do we have to see NFL talent evaluators and executive make before we stop appealing to authority?
I'm not arguing we should have kept him fyi. Just saying, I dunno what to think anymore.
Good thing the Mara minions are there to question things on behalf of ownership ALL the time.
Yup. The nephew has been there for one reason from the get go.
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In comment 16555312 Go Terps said:
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He was willing again to pay him after 2023. Someone else just paid more.
So maybe the takeaway is that Barkley is worth more in the eyes of NFL talent evaluators and executives than he is in the eyes of most here?
How many horrible mistakes do we have to see NFL talent evaluators and executive make before we stop appealing to authority?
that howie roseman, wish nyg had a roster full of horrible mistakes like his.
The Giants were BEYOND smart to move on because their team is NOT in a position to pay a running back big dollars..
+1
SB was a luxury that some teams could afford, but not the Giants with so many holes to fill. The right approach in my opinion, especially if we want to go to a more downfield passing oriented offense.
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He was willing again to pay him after 2023. Someone else just paid more.
So maybe the takeaway is that Barkley is worth more in the eyes of NFL talent evaluators and executives than he is in the eyes of most here?
Barkley still has plenty of talent and he is the correct player for teams looking for that final piece. For $12.5 mill and $26 gtd, he was not what the Giants needed at this time.
At this point in time, for about the same money they got Runyon. It can could be argued the Runyon will do more for the Giants than Barkley would, right now.
SB was a luxury that some teams could afford, but not the Giants with so many holes to fill. The right approach in my opinion, especially if we want to go to a more downfield passing oriented offense.
How can you have a downfield offense, with a QB that can't get the ball down field?
I didn't really have any expectations so I don't really have any strong opinions on what I've seen so far.
Also, since this is the first time this was done, we have no other teams to compare the Giants to.
I do think this will probably be the last time NFL Films/HBO does this, largely because of all the heat the Giants seem to be taking thus far.
I don't think any other team will want any part of it.
In the end, all that matters are the results of these decisions (obviously), not how they came to them or the comments made while making them, body language or any other highly subjective things.
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Nice view behind the scenes, to me JS come off looking the way a GM should - decisions aren't personal, its a business and $$ needs to be allocated appropriately. Mara & Timmy were cringeworthy. I think JS has learned not to let Mara influence his decisions so much, if he gets fired, go down doing things the way he thinks they should be done.
SB was a luxury that some teams could afford, but not the Giants with so many holes to fill. The right approach in my opinion, especially if we want to go to a more downfield passing oriented offense.
How can you have a downfield offense, with a QB that can't get the ball down field?
There is a huge difference between being able to get the ball downfield and being unwilling. Jones can get the ball downfield, but will he try?
As Eric said, Barkley may have a great season behind the Philly OL (there are some questions there this year, though) and their offense overall and yet still be the wise choice by the Giants.
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If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
It actually confirms my theory. I think they think they have their QB.
I did not want to believe this - but I think you're right.
This has been the overwhelming negative take away I've gotten from the show.
I wanted to believe that there was a faction in the FO between Schoen/Browner/Daboll (the new guys) and the old guys Abrams/ol'Timmy/Chris Mara (Jints Central) on DJ and that the contract w/ the out after this year was the compromise....
Sadly, I think I was wrong.
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In comment 16555241 Go Terps said:
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How so?
I think their fawning over Barkley is embarrassing. I keep feeling like I'm watching Arrested Development and they're talking about Ann.
"Him?"
They talk about him like he's Tyreek Hill or some other difference-making non-QB. He never was. All three episodes I felt like I was being gaslit.
That he saved them from themselves and went to Philly doesn't make them any less dumb for wanting to pay him.
Mara just confirms what many of us thought: he doesn't get modern football and the big decisions absolutely end with him. Seeing Schoen tell Barkley's agent "This one goes above me" and then immediately calling Mara tells you all you need to know about who the real GM is. Mara was also in the room when they discussed signing Lock - and that was after hearing Schoen and Daboll spout bullshit about NY being tougher on QBs than other places. And finally, hearing Schoen say "We either draft a QB or get a weapon for Daniel"...what kind of approach is that to the position? You either have a QB or you don't.
I know these guys don't sound as utterly stupid as Gettleman, but I'm not sure how much better off we are.
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How so?
I dunno, the focus of this week is basically a no confidence vote by our FO about our QB for starters.
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If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
It actually confirms my theory. I think they think they have their QB.
I think they have confidence in Jones, but they aren't digging their heels in. I think it's clear they aren't/weren't afraid to try and make an upgrade, but if it wasn't there for them, they wouldn't force it. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Like, most.
People hear what they want to hear, but I don't get the sense they love Jones. Both Rico & Woodstock have said as much.
People hear what they want to hear, but I don't get the sense they love Jones. Both Rico & Woodstock have said as much.
I don't see how anyone watching this comes away with the impression that they think they are "set" at QB. If anything, it has thus far confirmed they are looking for an upgrade. (You don't use a top 4 pick on an insurance policy). That said, I suspect what bugs Go Terps is that given the inability to trade up, they didn't "settle" (my choice of word) for one of the other three lesser QBs.
- Schoen didn't really want Barkley back.
- Mara did, but let Schoen make the decision.
- We've only seen the real Daboll at the Combine and that was impressive.
- Lock is not here to compete with Jones.
- The Giants were serious about upgrading at QB.
- Daboll does love Nabers.
- There is definitely a Mara/McDonnell faction that appears to have to be managed.
- There are a lot of voices in the room, and some who we have not given enough credit to.
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Seeing $40M continually referenced by Schoen struck me as odd. Almost like, "see, I didn't want to pay him that." They have been pretty open about wanting to move up. Daboll saying he'd move up for Daniels. Mara talking about having palpitations if they make this deal.
People hear what they want to hear, but I don't get the sense they love Jones. Both Rico & Woodstock have said as much.
I don't see how anyone watching this comes away with the impression that they think they are "set" at QB. If anything, it has thus far confirmed they are looking for an upgrade. (You don't use a top 4 pick on an insurance policy). That said, I suspect what bugs Go Terps is that given the inability to trade up, they didn't "settle" (my choice of word) for one of the other three lesser QBs.
We don't know how they felt about the other QBs because they haven't shown us anything on them. There's also no discussion about taking a QB later in the draft. What struck me is that Daboll said he'd like Taylor back in order to have the same QB room as last year. Also, Lock was clearly referred to as the backup more than once. There is no route to the starter job for him past a healthy Jones.
The while this feels to me like they view 2023 as an injury-riddled anomaly, not as a sign of a larger issue.
I literally cringed.
How the season plays out will determine whether their decisions documented on Hard Knocks embarrasses them.
If Daniel Jones flounders and gets hurt, they can't run the football, and Brian Burns puts in a nice but unremarkable season like he did in 2023 -- the Giants will probably lose a bunch and be embarrassed.
Want Daboll the guy initially saying he wanted Taylor back?
I literally cringed.
"We finally have to show the owner he's not the guy."
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See, I got a different feel from that. To me, it was Daboll questioning that they'd have the same QB room.
Want Daboll the guy initially saying he wanted Taylor back?
That's true. I just don't get the sense at all that Daboll likes Jones. I obviously could be very wrong.
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Mara hasn’t done himself any favors.
Depends.
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
Well put. I believe that Barkley is likely to have a great year if healthy. JS will get beat up by the press. Unfair because nobody with the Giants was saying he was "done". They just prioritized the OL and pass rush and thus could not afford to sign him. I believe it was the right call even if Barkley does well for the next three years. There is no guarantee he would have done that with the Giants if the OL was not fixed. If he gets hurt or loses effectiveness then it is a great move by JS.
I literally cringed.
This was indeed embarrassing. Not knowing if "our quarterback can sling it" after giving him the largest contract in franchise history is dumb enough to do, even dumber to say out loud on HardKnocks...
Want Daboll the guy initially saying he wanted Taylor back?
That's true. I just don't get the sense at all that Daboll likes Jones. I obviously could be very wrong.
Dabs went from driving a Porsche to a Buick.
When the best you can come up with is -- well it's not actually that expensive, when it's not in the shop you can prorate that it does the job, or what Porsche was available when we were Shopping -- easy to be disappointed.
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In comment 16555254 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Mara hasn’t done himself any favors.
Depends.
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
Well put. I believe that Barkley is likely to have a great year if healthy. JS will get beat up by the press. Unfair because nobody with the Giants was saying he was "done". They just prioritized the OL and pass rush and thus could not afford to sign him. I believe it was the right call even if Barkley does well for the next three years. There is no guarantee he would have done that with the Giants if the OL was not fixed. If he gets hurt or loses effectiveness then it is a great move by JS.
Yeah - it's true that if this comes to fruition JS will get hammered by the press...the real question is - will it cost him his job.
Three things can actually be right at the same time - 1.) SB kills it with the Eagles 2.) The Giants made right move to let him walk 3.) it still costs JS/BD their jobs because the Giants offense with DJ at the helm and minus SB is NOT good and they don't win games AND the ownership group is pist about it.
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In comment 16555399 Sean said:
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See, I got a different feel from that. To me, it was Daboll questioning that they'd have the same QB room.
Want Daboll the guy initially saying he wanted Taylor back?
That's true. I just don't get the sense at all that Daboll likes Jones. I obviously could be very wrong.
I don't think Daboll likes Jones either. Why would he?
I just don't think it matters organizationally. That decision is miles above the head coach.
I guess it's ok to want "dawgs" at WR, but the QB has to sound like Bob Dole.
Giants never on Hard Knocks, incessant complaining
Giants on Hard Knocks, incessant complaining
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Outrage!
Seriously, some people live in a fantasy land. Of course owners care about that sort of thing. Are we brain dead here? ///
That's fine and I don't disagree. However, it makes Schoen's job much more difficult. I'd imagine it made March of 2023 especially difficult for a young GM inheriting two players who Mara loves.
Sean, this can't be stated enough, to the point of overstating. Shecky's post (HK 2) was spot on in terms of timing of SB vs DJ, tag or deal. What made it more difficult for Schoen was that Mara had his thumb on the scales for both players and their agents.
It should be clear by now that JS is not now and was not then a big proponent of giving SB a big payday. But his 'holdout' on his $$, forcing the pivot to the DJ contract had to be galling, thus the frequent sardonic references to the $40mm, facilitated by Mara and SB.
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In comment 16555400 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16555399 Sean said:
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See, I got a different feel from that. To me, it was Daboll questioning that they'd have the same QB room.
Want Daboll the guy initially saying he wanted Taylor back?
That's true. I just don't get the sense at all that Daboll likes Jones. I obviously could be very wrong.
I don't think Daboll likes Jones either. Why would he?
I just don't think it matters organizationally. That decision is miles above the head coach.
Speculation is not fact and you have no idea that the the case
Tell us more about how Saquon is not a “big ticket “ item😂😂😂😁
I swear people have way too much fucking time on their hands. The media is actually analyzing this shit? It's a fucking tv show.
Carry on.
I can’t believe that all it took for daboll to sign off on burns and cowen were readily available statistics. I have to believe those were for tv
Giants never on Hard Knocks, incessant complaining
Giants on Hard Knocks, incessant complaining
I'll take the latter.
The way people are making this out to seem just doesn't make sense to me. We weren't good with him, we're doing the right thing by trying a different strategy.
I swear people have way too much fucking time on their hands. The media is actually analyzing this shit? It's a fucking tv show.
Carry on.
+1 to this!
I swear people have way too much fucking time on their hands. The media is actually analyzing this shit? It's a fucking tv show.
Carry on.
Yeah, you can nitpick here and there (it's what we do now), but nothing has come off as "wow, WTF?" And I would actually say that at times this is making the team look really good.
We should be thanking them for this access.
THEY LET BARKLEY WALK IN FA.
Who the fuck cares what Mara said? They let him walk.
Also, Barkley was popular. He was a productive player here. Eagles think so too. Mara was just being honest WTF is wrong with that? Nothing that's what.
THEY LET BARKLEY WALK IN FA.
Who the fuck cares what Mara said? They let him walk.
Also, Barkley was popular. He was a productive player here. Eagles think so too. Mara was just being honest WTF is wrong with that? Nothing that's what.
They got outbid for Barkley. They didn't "let him walk". They wanted him back, and the talk surrounding him was that of a much better player than he actually is.
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If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
It actually confirms my theory. I think they think they have their QB.
They tried to move up in the draft to take the QB you continue to scream about. Can you at least acknowledge this fact even if you think they should have pivoted off the missed trade up and drafted ANY other QB in round 1? You seem to gloss over the facts and push your same take time and time again. Virtually every source under the sun has stated that the Giants tried to trade up to 3 for the QB.
Or, insist on saying they have their QB and must now pay for it with their lives if they don't go 11-6 while throwing for the end all be all 30 TDs. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
While I have nothing else to compare it to, in terms of NFL teams insider operations, what I see, seems more than competent, I think they seem like they really know what they are doing and are functioning very well.
Anyone who disagrees with that, has unreasonable expectations or just doesn't get the Giants' situation, nor their plan of execution.
You obviously know what you are talking about and have far more knowledge than most, certainly me. Would you elaborate on this?
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THEY LET BARKLEY WALK IN FA.
Who the fuck cares what Mara said? They let him walk.
Also, Barkley was popular. He was a productive player here. Eagles think so too. Mara was just being honest WTF is wrong with that? Nothing that's what.
They got outbid for Barkley. They didn't "let him walk". They wanted him back, and the talk surrounding him was that of a much better player than he actually is.
Ok. That's embarrassing? Not from Philly's POV I guess.
So many things to get mad at with this team. Letting Barkley walk, something YOU advocated for, isn't one of them yet here we are..."EMBARRASSING!!" And why? Because the GM said "come back to us with the offer"
ok...hang in there.
Hard to read much into any of this crap but I tend to agree. And again, follow the actions not the words. Barkley left. As far as I am concerned both parties wanted to part ways and how do I come to this conclusion? They aren't together anymore!
But some here just want to be mad at something.
And I am definitely happy to get the behind the scenes glimpse of how it all works - and they function very much the same as many of the other companies I've ever worked for or worked with...
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
And let's face it, they were hired precisely because they convinced Mara that they could make it work with DJ as the centerpiece of the offense. When Daboll schemed his magic in 2022, Mara declared that the Giants were back because of DJ, thereby justifying the idiotic decision to draft him in the first place, and naturally had to follow through with that hideously back breaking contract.
Having watched three episodes now and seeing the virtual eyes rolling from both of them (Schoen's "can he sling it?" and Daboll's "you mean it will be the same quarterback room again!?!") there isn't a doubt in my mind now that Schoen and Daboll can't move on from DJ soon enough.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Why in God's name would SB want to come back? He carried this team without any semblance of an offense whatsoever during his entire tenure here! Yes he hasn't done well consistently. But who could with DJ at quarterback, a mishmash of mediocre receivers and a resolutely horrid offensive line? Barkley is now the centerpiece of an elite offense featuring an excellent quarterback and offensive line as well as playmakers who are arguably his equal at their respective positions. Barring injury, he will be the NFL all pro running back this year. And then he will have a legitimate chance at a real ring of honor - a super bowl ring.
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Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
Even with the edits, it's clear that Schoen wasn't keen at all in bringing back Barkley. The only possible contrary position is they still were talking to him on the day he signed with Philly, but Schoen said, "we're out."
Everything up to that point was Schoen saying he was a luxury the team could not afford.
And again, Mara didn't get his way.
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In comment 16555460 djm said:
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Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
So they didn't offer Barkley a contract after 2022?
"I tried to give him a lot of money last year and he didn't take it."
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In comment 16555254 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Mara hasn’t done himself any favors.
Depends.
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
Exactly…I haven’t understood why many don’t see that. The teams are in different places, they’re not apples to apples.
The Eagles have a lot of talent (although lost some on their OL and DL), and paying $13 million for Saquon in the hopes he pushes them over the top makes some sense
The Giants have so many needs everywhere that paying $13 million to a RB, with whom the offense has been horseshit the last few years anyway would have been foolish
Because it's their nature to find things to complain about when they really have no idea, like the rest of us, of what's going on.
"I tried to give him a lot of money last year and he didn't take it."
Of course they did. But a year makes a heck of a difference. Barkley is a year old, coming off another injury-plagued season, on a team that took a major step backwards.
Different scenario now.
Again, this is coming from a guy who said trade him in October 2022. I'm no apologist for anyone here. But the situation changed.
The original sin was drafting him. That was followed by Gettleman not trading him. Then Schoen not trading him. But the contract situations in March 2023 and March 2024 were different. Barkley was coming off his second-best season as a NYG.
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In comment 16555463 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16555460 djm said:
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Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
So they didn't offer Barkley a contract after 2022?
Ah…so now you are moving the bar from 2022 to 2023
Nice spin
They did not offer him a contract this off season so there was nothing to turn down
Try as you might….you’re making a fool of yourself
That's the weird thing. Mara didn't get his way. That's good.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
But they literally "let him walk in FA". *grin*
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
By definition, they let him leave in free agency.
The only thing I took away from this was Mara's presence, pretty uninspiring to say the least. I think people are really overblowing his "pressure" to keep saquon, he said a couple backhanded comments but didnt really push at all imo and its completely naive to think he wouldnt have a say in a move like that.
I'm as surprised as anyone, but Team Barkley was correct. The market for guaranteed cash dollars paid to Barkley for the 2023, 2024, and 2025 seasons was 36M.
Set aside the money he received in 2023. I don't think being a year older, another ankle injury, and a worse performance made Barkley more valuable. Even cap inflation doesn't tell the entire story.
The Eagles have version 2024-2026 more money than the Giants offered version 2023-2025.
No way in retrospect was he taking Schoen's best and final.
The Giants obviously felt that they had a choice: they could either sign SB and one low budget OL or they could get two quality OL and a Tier Two RB.
Seeing as how they had run their offense with something akin to the first option - and with spectacularly shitty results - they decided to go in a different direction in 2024. Can't blame them.
Hard Knocks isn't showing the Giants FA being stupid or incompetent or brilliant: it's showing them going through the process of evaluating where they are, where they want to be, and how a team makes decisions about making the magic happen.
I still believe they elected to permit HBO into their offices in the first place was because they knew back in November that SB wasn't coming back and they wanted to document the steps that led to his departure. What they didn't expect was for him to walk to Philadelphia for only a few dollars more than they were ready to offer.
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In comment 16555466 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16555463 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16555460 djm said:
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Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
So they didn't offer Barkley a contract after 2022?
Ah…so now you are moving the bar from 2022 to 2023
Nice spin
They did not offer him a contract this off season so there was nothing to turn down
Try as you might….you’re making a fool of yourself
When Schoen said to Ed Berry earlier this offseason (as shown on Hard Knocks), "If I offer $12.5M APY with $25M guaranteed, is he a Giant?" that's not an offer?
Once Berry hesitated there, it was already over. Schoen asked for the chance to match, and then asked again if matching was good enough to sign him. If you want to claim that Schoen would have reneged in that scenario if Berry had said yes, I guess that's your prerogative, but I think you're splitting hairs on the "there was never an offer" point.
The only thing I took away from this was Mara's presence, pretty uninspiring to say the least. I think people are really overblowing his "pressure" to keep saquon, he said a couple backhanded comments but didnt really push at all imo and its completely naive to think he wouldnt have a say in a move like that.
+1 Looks a lot like the corporate world I've lived in since spring of 1986. Even in the companies with an effective culture.
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In comment 16555317 barens said:
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If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
It actually confirms my theory. I think they think they have their QB.
They tried to move up in the draft to take the QB you continue to scream about. Can you at least acknowledge this fact even if you think they should have pivoted off the missed trade up and drafted ANY other QB in round 1? You seem to gloss over the facts and push your same take time and time again. Virtually every source under the sun has stated that the Giants tried to trade up to 3 for the QB.
Or, insist on saying they have their QB and must now pay for it with their lives if they don't go 11-6 while throwing for the end all be all 30 TDs. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
They tried to move up but couldn't. Then not only did they not take a QB at 6 they didn't take a QB at all anywhere. Their one addition was Drew Lock.
Daboll and Schoen are going to be judged on Jones success or failure this season, barring a surprise turn of events like benching him after 2 games.
The maneuvering of cap dollars is more dynamic. The Giants followed up the first wave of UFA with trading and paying Burns a 140M.
They had myriad ways to move cap dollars around to accommodate the grocery list they ended with and still retain Barkley.
Whether that represented good value and whether they were comfortable with the consequences of those moves is the real story.
Joe is getting a lot of input from people that, appear, to not know shit about football.
I think Chris Rossetti sounds like he could be a random guy on BBI. Not impressed with him or his analysis at all. Haven’t been impressed, one bit, by Tim McDonnell. He’s brought absolutely zero to the show.
Been impressed with Scheon, Brandon Brown, Dabs and scout Hannah Burnett.
They got outbid for Barkley. They didn't "let him walk". They wanted him back, and the talk surrounding him was that of a much better player than he actually is.
I'm not convinced of that. My gut tells me Schoen was very comfortable letting Team Barkley test the market. And he thought, because I think it was discussed at a meeting in Schoen's office, that some teams were going to have major interest in SB and conveniently knock NYG out of the bidding.
In fact, I sensed relief in Schoen and he just needed to make sure Mara didn't have cardiac arrest when the Eagles were the confirmed landing spot.
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
He would have signed him a year earlier at a number he was comfortable with, but he clearly draws a line in the sand with age and RB value.
Lastly, an organization which is successful DID pay Barkley. And the Texans were right there too among other teams as well.
I have no issue with how Schoen handled Barkley this offseason. He was managing Mara.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
JFC - so you don't interpret literally letting someone walk in FA as...letting someone walk in FA? They had a number in mind and stuck to it, not even attempting to meet the offer he received. That's letting someone walk. You can certainly make the argument that they shouldn't have even entertained resigning him, but they let him walk. It's exactly what they did.
It's as if you come up with your own definitions for things so you can contort situations in ways that mean you're never wrong. In this case, it appears you only count letting Barkley walk if they, what? Put all Barkley's stuff in a garbage bag in the parking lot before physically kicking him out of the building?
I think mainly because it was painfully obvious he was wrong about franchising him last year. Mara was OK with letting him walk this year only because of how things turned out, but he wanted it portrayed so that it looked like "they tried." If there was some hidden camera Hard Knocks of last offseason, I think we'd see a very different picture. Mara's quotes say as much.
This deal is coming off an additional season of wear and tear, a worse season and from a perennial Super Bowl contender
The NY Giants offered Barkley a worse deal than this a year ago and decided to tag him and sign Jones to 4/160 instead of tagging him and signing Barkley to 3/36 back then
In fact we even reportedly pulled the offer we made earlier in the season to him when he was leading the NFL in rushing after 9 weeks and the team was 7-2
Schoen even says on the show to allow Barkley to test the market
They never allowed Jones to test the market when they had a 1/29 tag available for him that would of cost a team 2 first rounders to sign him to. The Giants had match rights anyway . No team ever would have considered such a ridiculous move but we didnt
Thats why the Giants dont look good over Barkley-Jones
The market showed how out of touch we were. Barkley was offered a better deal more than a year and a half later by a much better team and after he played worse.
If Jones had been tagged last season and he now hit FA, whats his market value? 1 yr 10 mil ?
Schoen tried, but it seems like he pretty much knew Barkley wasn't going to be staying.
The writer ignores the Burns deal. Giants thought it would take a first rounder, maybe two. The Giants made a great deal based on their value for the player.
Most of the bashing by the writer is due to the Jones deal. That didn't happen during the Hard Knocks.
None of this is actually accurate.
Many posters on here, myself included, have said that John Mara attempts to influence decisions, that he makes his opinion known, both privately and through the press, and that he expresses his preferences in ways that can be challenging for a subordinate to navigate.
All of that has been proven true.
No one, to my knowledge, has suggested that Mara issues strict mandates, although I think there's a reasonable case to be made that he may have historically favored management candidates who were already aligned with his POV and therefore his influence was more direct (this would apply to Gettleman in particular, including the farce of the search process to identify the new GM in 2017).
Nice strawman, but you're punching at air. You won an argument that no one was having.
This deal is coming off an additional season of wear and tear, a worse season and from a perennial Super Bowl contender
The NY Giants offered Barkley a worse deal than this a year ago and decided to tag him and sign Jones to 4/160 instead of tagging him and signing Barkley to 3/36 back then
In fact we even reportedly pulled the offer we made earlier in the season to him when he was leading the NFL in rushing after 9 weeks and the team was 7-2
Schoen even says on the show to allow Barkley to test the market
They never allowed Jones to test the market when they had a 1/29 tag available for him that would of cost a team 2 first rounders to sign him to. The Giants had match rights anyway . No team ever would have considered such a ridiculous move but we didnt
Thats why the Giants dont look good over Barkley-Jones
The market showed how out of touch we were. Barkley was offered a better deal more than a year and a half later by a much better team and after he played worse.
If Jones had been tagged last season and he now hit FA, whats his market value? 1 yr 10 mil ?
Pretty damn good post. I agree with a lot of this, especially the Jones observation. That situation was horribly misplayed. That decision can be further compounded if:
1) Jones throws in another clunker of a season and/or...
2) One of the three QBs we passed on is the real deal
Popular essentially means- what the fans care about
He is the owner thats his responsibility
Popular essentially means- what the fans care about
He is the owner thats his responsibility
And its what fans should want as well
It should’nt override football decisions and it didnt
But there is times it should - ask any Mets fan who saw Tom Seaver traded
Obviously this isnt the same situation but the owner needs to be the one asking these questions and testing the GM to decide what the situation calls for
They just signed a pass rusher for $28 million/year. Get him out there. We have an All-Pro Lineman whose nickname is "Sexy". Can you work that?...
School/Daboll are trying to build a team that can win football games. That's how you measure success for a GM/HC.
It's pretty clear, in the modern NFL, paying a running back a big second contract is often proved to be a mistake. Both from a player wear and tear perspective, but also the fact that the rules offer advantages to passing teams.
People will point to CMC, but for every CMC, there are multiple Zeke Elliots.
I'd even say the Eagles would've been smarter to use the Barkley funds elsewhere on the roster - anyone they put behind the Oline seems to find success, and at a bargain price.
So let me get this straight. In this little IQ test scenario you've set up. You and the Giants are high IQ and the Eagles are low IQ?
It seems pretty low IQ to think you and a basement dwelling team are smarter than the Eagles.
I personally think it was the right move for both teams. And there are other teams it would have made sense for IE the Texans where there were rumblings they offered more. They are looking pretty smart these days as well...
Maybe a good idea for you is aknowleding there is more nuance to these things and giving people IQ awards for agreeing with you is a dumb practice.
He would have signed him a year earlier at a number he was comfortable with, but he clearly draws a line in the sand with age and RB value.
Lastly, an organization which is successful DID pay Barkley. And the Texans were right there too among other teams as well.
I have no issue with how Schoen handled Barkley this offseason. He was managing Mara.
Maybe it was Mara that took ten years off his life the year before when they tagged SB and tried to work out a deal….
They've just elminated any plausable deniability that they are running an intelligent, well functioning organization.
There is a GM of average intelligence and leadership abilities needing to placate/fend off/pick his battles against people making decisions based on their feelings. And/or some imagined version of what fans want that I'd bet coincidentally frequently align with those feelings!
This is cemented by the fact that i'd bet they thought they would come out looking good. Their self awareness and self scouting are abysmal.
I'm reminded about a quote from the office where someone asks when they get work done with all the distractions from Michael Scott and it is something like "We find little times here and there"
That's what it feels like to watch hard knocks. Like the job of the GM is to coax spoiled billionairs with over inflated egos away from making bad, emotional decisions.
It's pretty apparent why we are one of the worst teams the last decade. And that is the only embaressment what we put on the field. This is just watching an episode of "How it's made" and having it fill in the blanks of the exact mechanisms at play. "Oh I didn't know they made the roster like that, I can see how they are so bad."
They've just elminated any plausable deniability that they are running an intelligent, well functioning organization.
There is a GM of average intelligence and leadership abilities needing to placate/fend off/pick his battles against people making decisions based on their feelings. And/or some imagined version of what fans want that I'd bet coincidentally frequently align with those feelings!
This is cemented by the fact that i'd bet they thought they would come out looking good. Their self awareness and self scouting are abysmal.
I'm reminded about a quote from the office where someone asks when they get work done with all the distractions from Michael Scott and it is something like "We find little times here and there"
That's what it feels like to watch hard knocks. Like the job of the GM is to coax spoiled billionairs with over inflated egos away from making bad, emotional decisions.
It's pretty apparent why we are one of the worst teams the last decade. And that is the only embaressment what we put on the field. This is just watching an episode of "How it's made" and having it fill in the blanks of the exact mechanisms at play. "Oh I didn't know they made the roster like that, I can see how they are so bad."
So you are using a heavily edited material to judge if JS has average intelligence and leadership abilities?
Seriously?
Amazing the narratives that people create
JS expresses that they need a backup plan for Jones and for another consecutive year of idiocy they don’t draft a backup plan.
JS expresses that they can’t afford Barkley and Jones. Which overpaying Jones was an unforced error exacerbating that. He adds later that if you are patient you can get a bargain on an RB.
They aren’t patient, they end up paying Singletary double what he made last year on a longer contract for absolutely no reason given the year Singletary had. He had less TDs and a lower YPC than the year before on a similar number of yards. Only a desperate person would do that, ignoring his own good advice to boot. And that desperate stab has Singletary and Barkley at pretty much the same cap numbers the next two years.
Not being able to execute your own ideas as the decision maker doesn’t display good intelligence or leadership.
Him eating in the car and talking about his career path makes him sound like some middle manager trying to impress his mother in law. But that isn’t important just kind of more of a joke.
What is important is that his work has been unimpressive on the field, not reflecting good intelligence.
He almost lost 2 coordinators in one offseason and not because they were promoted. The infighting among the people that work for him does not reflect good leadership.
They said nice things about Barkley but I never got the sense Schoen thought he was a priority. I think Schoen didn’t think Barkley was going to get a big payday and would be able to sign him for less than he previously offered. Then when Barkley did get the big offer Schoen didn’t think he was worth it. I think Schoen was thinking Barkley was going to get an offer in the $10 mil per and probably would have seriously considered a match.
I do think the Giants underestimated the market for all players and didn’t adjust enough for the cap increase so they did seem a little unprepared for that but seemed to pivot well.
Now that the off-season has concluded I am very happy with the results. I didn’t want a QB this year and I think the 3 WRs were the top 3 players in the draft with Harrison being 1A and Nabers being 1B. I saw Nabers as the better player but Harrison as the sure thing.
In my opinion Barkley may have 1 good season but definitely not 3 and even if he has 3 great seasons the contract was not worth the risk based on the info we have today.
JS expresses that they need a backup plan for Jones and for another consecutive year of idiocy they don’t draft a backup plan.
JS expresses that they can’t afford Barkley and Jones. Which overpaying Jones was an unforced error exacerbating that. He adds later that if you are patient you can get a bargain on an RB.
They aren’t patient, they end up paying Singletary double what he made last year on a longer contract for absolutely no reason given the year Singletary had. He had less TDs and a lower YPC than the year before on a similar number of yards. Only a desperate person would do that, ignoring his own good advice to boot. And that desperate stab has Singletary and Barkley at pretty much the same cap numbers the next two years.
Not being able to execute your own ideas as the decision maker doesn’t display good intelligence or leadership.
Him eating in the car and talking about his career path makes him sound like some middle manager trying to impress his mother in law. But that isn’t important just kind of more of a joke.
What is important is that his work has been unimpressive on the field, not reflecting good intelligence.
He almost lost 2 coordinators in one offseason and not because they were promoted. The infighting among the people that work for him does not reflect good leadership.
Nice spin on the coordinators and the sandwich in the car
Go back to making popcorn
RE: Mara and his comments. He sounds like an owner who gets too emotionally attached to his players. His Dad (RIP) was the same way. He weighs in and let's the GM make the decisions. He owns the team he has a right to weigh in. Thank God he's giving JS a free hand.
If you watch this and think that Daboll has anything other than a tolerance for working with JS then you aren't paying attention.
But read any decision making literature since the 50s and it all says you want people to play devils advocate and ask questions. It’s a proven way to avoid groupthink. “Without SB what is our identity on offense?” is just that - a questIon. It’s not even an especially hard one hopefully. Because knowing they could lose SB they should have an answer, or at least ideas based on the potential draft. If I’m the owner of a company I’m sure as hell asking my GM questions, about the strategy and the sales.
It’s be one thing if they let that question change the course of what happened. They didn’t. Schoen had a price for a talented, oft injured RB approaching his likely drop off point. Mara didn’t push him past it and we let him walk. Seems to me they did the job of checking on the thinking and asking questions, but letting JS make the call.
The bottom line is if you think that price was too high for us for SB, letting him walk was correct , JS did it, JM let him. All good.
The rest is inferential guesswork based on edited snippets of conversations on a reality TV show.
That would be really bad for business.
Can you imagine them saying that Barkley dances too much, slow to hit the hole, has suspect vision. is a poor pass blocker and allowing that to be aired. No player would ever want to come to the team and know they might get publicly trashed by the FO.
The same goes for the QB situation. Do you think the Giants can actually allow it to be aired that they do not believe in DJ when they know they have to roll with him this year.
Common sense tells you that a lot of this is performative. A massively watered down version of things. Perhaps some real shots of real conversation like the at the combine.
I would watch with a few large grains of salt, and assume that much of what you are seeing is staged. I don't think you can pass any judgements based on seeing this. Furthermore, you judge people by the results. In the end, they let Barkley go which was the right decision for the NY Giants. That is a good result. We will have to wait and see if these decisions were correct: Burns, Runyon/Eluemunor and the rest of OL signees, Nabers, Nubin (letting McKinney walk), etc. How a show like HK portrays getting to these decisions is interesting to fans but in the end doesn't mean much. If Shoen is getting the decisions right, then he will be praised, wrong and he better cover his ass on the way out.
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Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
But some of it has been really cool. The draft stuff was great, the narrowing down the list of FA's to pursue was interesting. Just seeing these guys in their natural surroundings has been great as well. I was drawing a lot of parallels to my business watching this...which reminded me that football is a business too.
It seems the popular viewpoint is to make this a Mara vs Schoen issue. It's concerning that it may show a lack of alignment, but it's also very possible this stuff was played up for the camera.
It does also seem that a lot of the media criticized NYG for taking Barkley at 2. But, a lot of the same media is criticizing NYG for letting Barkley go to Philly?
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In comment 16555493 UberAlias said:
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Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
Quit backtracking. This is in this context of their being called 2nd least talented roster in the league, will have top 5 pick next year, etc. You yourself have repeatedly pointed to Vegas odds for the upcoming season as if it's some superior insight. They may be bad, or they may not. But many on the negative angle continue to push their view with such certainty. With all the spamming that's come from that direction, if that's not how it plays out, the spammers more than deserve to be called on it.
Cool. And if they're bad again you'll deserve to be called out for this ridiculous stance you keep pushing...but it isn't important enough to bother remembering.
"I tried to give him a lot of money last year and he didn't take it."
I'm as surprised as anyone, but Team Barkley was correct. The market for guaranteed cash dollars paid to Barkley for the 2023, 2024, and 2025 seasons was 36M.
Set aside the money he received in 2023. I don't think being a year older, another ankle injury, and a worse performance made Barkley more valuable. Even cap inflation doesn't tell the entire story.
The Eagles have version 2024-2026 more money than the Giants offered version 2023-2025.
No way in retrospect was he taking Schoen's best and final.
The Kibuki dance with Barkley was already as much as he could manage.
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In comment 16555468 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16555466 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16555463 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16555460 djm said:
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Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
So they didn't offer Barkley a contract after 2022?
Ah…so now you are moving the bar from 2022 to 2023
Nice spin
They did not offer him a contract this off season so there was nothing to turn down
Try as you might….you’re making a fool of yourself
When Schoen said to Ed Berry earlier this offseason (as shown on Hard Knocks), "If I offer $12.5M APY with $25M guaranteed, is he a Giant?" that's not an offer?
Once Berry hesitated there, it was already over. Schoen asked for the chance to match, and then asked again if matching was good enough to sign him. If you want to claim that Schoen would have reneged in that scenario if Berry had said yes, I guess that's your prerogative, but I think you're splitting hairs on the "there was never an offer" point.
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
All very fair imo. It's also a product of such few people actually having a proven track record at GM. It's hard. Not many can do it. The hope is Schoen can grow into the job.
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
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In comment 16555501 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16555493 UberAlias said:
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Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
Cool. And if they're bad again you'll deserve to be called out for this ridiculous stance you keep pushing...but it isn't important enough to bother remembering.
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Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
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In comment 16555942 JonC said:
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Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
I disagree as I don’t think that one can draw any conclusions one way or the other
Only time will tell and we all hope for the best
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In comment 16555950 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16555942 JonC said:
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Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
I disagree as I don’t think that one can draw any conclusions one way or the other
Only time will tell and we all hope for the best
What I've read of you here is mostly fan mode or defending the regime, no offense. To each their own. The product on the field is the biggest tell, and there's little yet to suggest the arrow's pointing up. The tv show doesn't inspire either, tho I wouldn't categorize it as embarrassing themselves. Just a ton of green in the building.
This is a huge year : the Jones situation, young bucks eg Thibs and Thomas and more need to play to pedigree, Burns is a significant gamble on potential, there's a long list of things that need to go in NYG's favor this season.
💯
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In comment 16555942 JonC said:
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Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
you know who else is very often incorrect? every NFL team that hires a new coach, drafts a QB in the first round, or signs an expensive free agent. Anyone skeptical of anyone participating in any of those things is going to be right often.
i have plenty of criticisms of how schoen has handled different things but if you dont see that he clearly has a specific plan built on positional value i think you arent looking close enough. if there are points of disagreement with that plan by all means im not saying they are invalid, but to say they dont have a plan is eyes wide shut. if anything i believe it aligns way too much with mainstream orthodoxy fans have become way too religious about.
But read any decision making literature since the 50s and it all says you want people to play devils advocate and ask questions. It’s a proven way to avoid groupthink. “Without SB what is our identity on offense?” is just that - a questIon. It’s not even an especially hard one hopefully. Because knowing they could lose SB they should have an answer, or at least ideas based on the potential draft. If I’m the owner of a company I’m sure as hell asking my GM questions, about the strategy and the sales.
It’s be one thing if they let that question change the course of what happened. They didn’t. Schoen had a price for a talented, oft injured RB approaching his likely drop off point. Mara didn’t push him past it and we let him walk. Seems to me they did the job of checking on the thinking and asking questions, but letting JS make the call.
The bottom line is if you think that price was too high for us for SB, letting him walk was correct , JS did it, JM let him. All good.
The rest is inferential guesswork based on edited snippets of conversations on a reality TV show.
What a lame defense of Mara. Boiling down the problem with him of "liking to play devil's advocate."
If you can't look at the Jones situation and see all his public comments and our embarassing overpay of him as connected you are being willfully ignorant.
It doesn't really matter if he's asking questions or pounding on desks, it is clear that his feelings for players and ideas about "loyalty" are making this team bad.
His family is the common thread in an embarassing decade. Stop making excuses for them.
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In comment 16555954 JonC said:
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In comment 16555950 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16555942 JonC said:
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Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
I disagree as I don’t think that one can draw any conclusions one way or the other
Only time will tell and we all hope for the best
What I've read of you here is mostly fan mode or defending the regime, no offense. To each their own. The product on the field is the biggest tell, and there's little yet to suggest the arrow's pointing up. The tv show doesn't inspire either, tho I wouldn't categorize it as embarrassing themselves. Just a ton of green in the building.
This is a huge year : the Jones situation, young bucks eg Thibs and Thomas and more need to play to pedigree, Burns is a significant gamble on potential, there's a long list of things that need to go in NYG's favor this season.
It’s not a matter of defending
It’s a matter of not having conclusive evidence as of yet to make a determination one way or the other
This is a big year and should be a especially for the aforementioned players you highlighted above
not only outside the building hires, they were considered the top guys in that cycle. brandon brown was the runner up for harbough in LAC for gm.
if the criticism re the giants is they act like frat bros i can only imagine what the comments re dan campbell a couple summers ago when he was on HK. now he's the belle of the ball.
i get why being a nyg fan would turn someone into a skeptic but to me it comes off as naive to how difficult it is to turn a franchise around when it's key leadership needs to be entirely turned over. its enormously hard to find the right people to do that. we know that because 1/3 of the league tries to do it every january and only a small percentage of those teams succeed (and some years none succeed).
You are ignoring how thoroughly embarassing last season was. Our $40 QB was 1-5 and that win required a big comeback against a team picking ahead of us at 6.
He then got outplayed by BOTH of his backups.
The other teams we beat were either other teams ahead of us in the draft order or a team with nothing to play for. Other than 1 win. We go to the playoffs one year and follow it with 1 quality win.
We don't trade our most tradable asset on this lost season then see him go to a division rival.
Yeah sure, they could turn it around. But with who at QB? This same dud taking up way too much of the cap that is injured regularly. The worse backup QB than we had last year?
This last year has been a huge embarassment and plenty of people are rightfully calling out the organization for it.
I'm sure you'll be saying incomplete, incomplete, then scapegoating the next coach, GM and then we can repeat this fun cycle again!
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I think there's certainly enough information to go by to formulate an opinion. It's the bold certainty in light of incomplete data where people need to be more realistic about that the actually know verses believe. The two biggest mistakes I see are putting the last 10 all on the current group (IMO this current group is much better than DG in certain ways where DG was never going to succeed) and two is failing to account for the youth on the roster. With his first draft class reaching year 3, I again point to this year as important. Neal is the glaring draft pick failure, but as such a consensus player I'm not so inclined to crucify him on one pick, especially if we do so improvement with added health.
You are ignoring how thoroughly embarassing last season was. Our $40 QB was 1-5 and that win required a big comeback against a team picking ahead of us at 6.
He then got outplayed by BOTH of his backups.
The other teams we beat were either other teams ahead of us in the draft order or a team with nothing to play for. Other than 1 win. We go to the playoffs one year and follow it with 1 quality win.
We don't trade our most tradable asset on this lost season then see him go to a division rival.
Yeah sure, they could turn it around. But with who at QB? This same dud taking up way too much of the cap that is injured regularly. The worse backup QB than we had last year?
This last year has been a huge embarassment and plenty of people are rightfully calling out the organization for it.
I'm sure you'll be saying incomplete, incomplete, then scapegoating the next coach, GM and then we can repeat this fun cycle again!
Manhattan/Producer/Darwinism is back for his 4th go around
it will, but by then his handle will be "pop secret".
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I could actually acknowledge some of what you say and discuss it further in a civil way, but it's clear that's not your intention here, so I think I'll pass on that. If that's how you feel, I don't have issue with it. It's going to play out one way or the other, no?
it will, but by then his handle will be "pop secret".
I was going to reply and tell Orville "They should stick to popping corn". lol
If people are worried about what their Eagle-fan friends say, don't. If you care what idiots behind a keyboard say, I'm sorry.
Management needs to do better. Seems like they're starting to do some positive things. Time will tell.
I think one unforced error of Hard Knocks will be if Jones has a perfectly mediocre season like 2022, and the fans and media revolt.
How will Schoen handle keeping Jones on the roster after the tepid vote of confidence the story line on the program has shown?
I think one unforced error of Hard Knocks will be if Jones has a perfectly mediocre season like 2022, and the fans and media revolt.
How will Schoen handle keeping Jones on the roster after the tepid vote of confidence the story line on the program has shown?
Seems like the best case scenario for the offense this upcoming season would be something similar to 2022 - but with much less featured QB runs and more nifty short passing featuring the improved WR corp.
I think it would be much easier to move on if the success of the offense can be pinned less on "Daniel Jones - dual threat QB" and more on the Daboll/Kafka crafty offensive designs.
I think one unforced error of Hard Knocks will be if Jones has a perfectly mediocre season like 2022, and the fans and media revolt.
How will Schoen handle keeping Jones on the roster after the tepid vote of confidence the story line on the program has shown?
Seems like the best case scenario for the offense this upcoming season would be something similar to 2022 - but with much less featured QB runs and more nifty short passing featuring the improved WR corp.
I think it would be much easier to move on if the success of the offense can be pinned less on "Daniel Jones - dual threat QB" and more on the Daboll/Kafka crafty offensive designs.
In real world terms, I completely agree. But I think a very likely scenario to play out would be:
- Keep Jones for 2025, at the cost of 1/30M
- Draft a quarterback in the top 70 in the 2025 draft
- Groom rookie and play when ready
- Cut Jones after 2025 season
I think Schoen would get an awful lot of shit doing that after the Hard Knocks edit portrays him as thinking Jones needs to prove it or else. But I just can't imagine the Giants dump Jones short of a disaster of a season. The economics and timing of the contract (12M guaranteed on 3/5, before the draft) make it very attractive to keep Jones as a bridge.
So...basically a coin flip? Hah.
For another 7M do they let him recover, and stay on the roster? They certainly kept Shepard around as designated rehabber for a few years.
You just do not have any answers for what I said that is all. You are pretending it is something else. Pretending seems to be a core competency of yours.
And you people are as off about me being those others posters as you are on your takes. I'm glad you crack each other up.
But you are the actual jokes, you just do not know it because enough of you are in the same shared delusion that you are blissfully unaware.
I'm happy to have a civil discussion. If you are taking things said about the Giants personally that isn't on me. Nothing I said lacked civility towards you.
It’s Manhattan/Producer/Darwinism
4th go around😁😁😁
I'm merely pointing out severe flaws in your logic. Or in the case of Bavaro giving him a very detailed answer on the question he gave me and getting no response to that.
Perhaps he'd like to make the case of why JS is smart and a great leader?
Anyway respond to the points, don't respond to the points I don't really care. Just don't act like I have some problem that I don't because you cannot refute my points.
I'm not any 4th version of anyone or trying to conduct myself in any other way than chat about the team.
I've been consistent in my view. Year one was very positive, with clearly some overachieving. Last year was a mess, but also crippled by injuries, especially early on. Not just the injuries alone, the way thing went down right out the gate, this team was all out of sorts and took a very long time to get out.
Between all that, it's hard to get a clear read on last year. I'm not convinced we didn't see the opposite side of the overachieving from year 1 only in reverse last season. By the end of the year they were playing competitive football. Is that the only way to interpret? Absolutely not. But IMO those who outright dismissing are putting too much into what they know verses what they believe.
Either way, it's a extremely young team. If you say 3 years to get a read on a draft class, we aren't even there with the year 1 class yet. Which is why I broadly see it as one good year, one bad, but ultimately remaining open to outcome with emphasis on what we see in 2024. Grace period is over, now the pressure is on.
I haven't seen anything so dramatic in 3 episodes of Hard Knocks to pull me off that view.
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If the reporting from last year is correct, Schoen made a respectable offer that was probably dead on arrival because of the guarantees.
I'm as surprised as anyone, but Team Barkley was correct. The market for guaranteed cash dollars paid to Barkley for the 2023, 2024, and 2025 seasons was 36M.
Set aside the money he received in 2023. I don't think being a year older, another ankle injury, and a worse performance made Barkley more valuable. Even cap inflation doesn't tell the entire story.
The Eagles have version 2024-2026 more money than the Giants offered version 2023-2025.
No way in retrospect was he taking Schoen's best and final.
Best Take. Schoen didn't want to pay for him and Barkley knew it. Schoen has been trying to spin this for over a year, and the strain of it is something he's glad to be out from under. If he could have resigned Barkley for 11 mil he would have done it, and then only because he would have had no cover not to. He knew all along what he was gonna get, that's why he never made an offer. Same reason they didn't touch McKenzie on the show with a 10 foot pole.
The Kibuki dance with Barkley was already as much as he could manage.
RedRightHand, I don't often agree with you, but this time I do...
From the clip I saw, I thought Shoen was covering his ass for Mara and the public. I don't believe he wanted SB back.
For saying that jokes were made about me, childish ones. And it wasn’t until you questioned my intentions while sticking your fingers in your ears and saying “na na na” that you were then called childish. So cry me a river with your victim card.
But you also want to play the victim card on the injuries. We were a shit team from the jump last year. Stop with the endless excuses.
That is your basic problem. You tried to act like you were the voice of reason coming in preaching patience. But the only problem with that is that view is quite unreasonable given what we’ve seen from the owners far beyond hard knocks but very much confirmed.
You and everyone are entitled to their views you just don’t get to pass your hopes and dreams off as logic and expect that to fly.
Much like the others who came at me for stupid shit about “who I was” and “my intentions” you do it because you don’t want to face unpleasant truths. I’m just tired of watching this shitty cycle play out again and again and you seem to be cool with that.
You have a right to be cool with it and I have a right to be not cool with that. You don’t need to try to make me out to be a bad person for it. That’s lame
2.) Anyone who believes we’re getting an authentic, transparent look into their decision making with personnel .
Don’t get me wrong, there’s some cool moments to me as a fan, particularly seeing Daboll working with draft prospects on Xs and Os. That said, I’d be hard pressed to believe that the Giants just so happened to agree to let Hard Knocks do something they’ve never done in covering a FO through free agency and the draft, before the offseason they let the “face of the franchise” walk (SB), and nearly traded up in Rd1 to replace their $40M QB, and it’s not a spin job. This wreaks of preemptive damage control.
All speculation on my part of course, but this seems like Schoen’s olive branch to Mara about moving on from “his” guys in Barkley and DJ, and allowing Mara to separate himself from the decisions and try to “save face.” That line from Mara of “I’d have trouble sleeping if he ended up in the division” re:Barkley sticks out.
Also, I certainly don’t think we’re getting real insights on any of Mara, Schoen, or Daboll’s real opinions on current players worth or anything like that. It would be stupid to televise what he thinks, even if it’s true: the window of time in which Saquon will still be a top tier back will not align with the window in time where the Giants will be contenders, so to spend that money on a running back is just bad business. His position requires him to make those judgements, but with the Lombardi’s of the world, he’d get crucified for saying it on camera.