He is the appointed CEO who also owns a pretty small minority ownership % and sits on the franchises Board of Directors. The Giants are a 50/50 joint venture in which one half is owned by the Tisch siblings, who are far richer and more powerful than the Mara clan. I understand that a CEO will weigh in on certain decisions - that’s conventional - while leaving most decisions to qualified professionals. John Mara’s actions are consistent with a CEO role, but that role was granted to him as an act of nepotism. He’s a nepo baby.
Mara acts as a CEO, not an owner, and reports to the Giants’ Board, of which he is a member. The board has 9 members, 4 of whom appear to be appointed by Tisch and 5 by the Maras. I say apparently because information about one of the board members, Nicole Covello, is hard to come by. That’s the formal structure. Informally, the Tisches have other things to worry about, though the Giants represent a significant part of their net worth, and the Maras are more focused on the franchise. In what looks like a compromise between the 50/50 partners, Steve Tisch serves as the Board Chairman, while Mara is the CEO. Tisch is 75 and if he dies power may devolve to Jonathan Tisch, his brother, age 70, who serves as the Board Treasurer. The people overseeing this organization are old and given the solid business footing of NFL franchises, that makes for a lot of inertia. But it wouldn’t be surprising if the Board saw a lot of turnover in the next decade. It’s worth mentioning that Jonathan Tisch is a real businessman, he was CEO of Loews, a publicly traded firm, until last year, while Larry is a film producer. Their sister, Laurie Tisch, also serves on the Board and is 73, and doesn’t appear to be a career woman. (Note that one of her daughters appears to be a real executive.) All the Tisches are billionaires, so these people are seriously rich.
Nepotism and nepotism babies are spread across the Giants organization very thoroughly. One question I have been wondering is why Tim McDonnell would be viewed as the CEO heir apparent. Why not hire a veteran sports executive as the next Giants CEO? Both sets of families are used to treating businesses as family ventures. For example, Jonathan Tisch stepped aside as CEO of Loews, a publicly traded company, and his son Alex succeeded him.
Why hasn’t Mara been fired? Because the Giants are profitable, have a board majority and exist in a monopoly setting in which even an incompetent fool like him can lead the Giants organization. The situation is different from, say, the Panthers where an incompetent 100% owner David Tepper and his wife Caroline, the Panthers’ Chief Administrative Officer, have total control. The Giants org structure shows signs of a very political, negotiated arrangement.
The other thing that jumps out is that the Tisch family is embedded in the hospitality industry. That’s why they are rich. Loews isn’t an enormous company but it is sizable and the Tisch family has a lot of investments in addition to it. So we fans look at the Giants from the lens of a team, but the Tisches likely have a different perspective, viewing it as an entertainment venue. It’s possible that the “sub optimal” Met Life as a venue may be more pressing to the Tisches than the teams losing record.
My takeaways:
- Both sets of owners are used to treating their companies as family ventures.
- The management structure of the franchise is negotiated in a complex web. The situation is now stable but complex webs are unstable and can change.
- None of the principal players has firmly demonstrated competence and ability, although it’s possible that Jonathan Tisch is an accomplished businessman and leader.
- Jonathan is now quasi retired and may now play a bigger role in the Giants than when he was running his business. That’s something to watch for.
- The Board is old. We could see significant turnover there or the current membership could persist for a decade or two.
You can bitch all you want but that that is the way its going to stay for awhile.
The Giants are in this predicament because they have drafted poorly and more importantly not developed their own players.
You can bitch all you want but that that is the way its going to stay for awhile.
The Giants are in this predicament because they have drafted poorly and more importantly not developed their own players.
Good post!
Bitching about your favorite teams ownership is like pissing and moaning about the brand of car you choose to drive. This team has been the possession of the Mara family since 1925. It aint going to change nor should it. If you hate John Mara so much go root for another team. The guy, by all accounts sounds like a tremendous person to work for.
You can bitch all you want but that that is the way its going to stay for awhile.
The Giants are in this predicament because they have drafted poorly and more importantly not developed their own players.
I think that's what people are going to start doing. Speaking for myself, I watch them more out of inertia than I do out of being a fan, and I don't suffer each loss the way I used to; I just lament not enjoying them anymore. It used to be a lot of fun. I want that back, which is the reason I keep coming back, but it's fading.
The people running the team some seem that bothered with trying to win, so why should I care?
Quote:
I suggest most people on this board think about changing teams. The Maras started the Giants and the are the majority owners.
You can bitch all you want but that that is the way its going to stay for awhile.
The Giants are in this predicament because they have drafted poorly and more importantly not developed their own players.
Good post!
Bitching about your favorite teams ownership is like pissing and moaning about the brand of car you choose to drive. This team has been the possession of the Mara family since 1925. It aint going to change nor should it. If you hate John Mara so much go root for another team. The guy, by all accounts sounds like a tremendous person to work for.
This post shows a stunning lack of awareness about how fandom works. When the team you grew up loving is making the same mistakes over and over again, it is natural to get frustrated with those situations and complain about them. Nobody on here has ever seriously suggested the Maras and Tiches sell the team - they complain about John Mara’s terrible football instincts being a large factor in decisions. Full stop.
Saying “go route for another team” is like telling people if their preferred political candidate loses an election, they should move to another country. It’s a 5 year old’s understanding of the world.
the giants situation isnt the best in pro sports but it's a lot farther from the worst than vice versa.
imo its generally a dumb thing to focus on unless you have a time machine that can take you back to 1925. owners do what they want with the things they own. the maras are weak owners but there are a lot worse things they could be. just w/ ny sports in the last couple decades you could describe many of their peers with far worse adjectives like micromanaging, ego maniacal, rotten, cheap, racist, incompetent and all the way through to literally criminal.
they are good people who run a respected organization that cares about it's fans, they just happen to be just as shitty at hiring competent football people as everyone else.
Quote:
I suggest most people on this board think about changing teams. The Maras started the Giants and the are the majority owners.
You can bitch all you want but that that is the way its going to stay for awhile.
The Giants are in this predicament because they have drafted poorly and more importantly not developed their own players.
Good post!
Bitching about your favorite teams ownership is like pissing and moaning about the brand of car you choose to drive. This team has been the possession of the Mara family since 1925. It aint going to change nor should it. If you hate John Mara so much go root for another team. The guy, by all accounts sounds like a tremendous person to work for.
No you are both wrong. You choose the brand of car you drive most of us are born into this. Should I have told my Dad when I went to my first game when I was 5 that I was going to pass on this whole Giants fan thing?
It is you who should grow thicker skin about the complaints. You aren’t a better fan because you aren’t grossed out by what the Mara’s are doing. You are just an ignorant sycophant.
Newsflash, public figures get criticized. Especially when their performance is bad. You people seem to be the ones that need to wake up and understand how the world works and maybe stay away from the internet. Because it will be chock full of Giants critiques until the Mara’s get a clue
But I imagine the Mara’s would sell themselves on it turning around year after year. But if it got bad enough financially the Tisch family would push pretty hard for a change. But if they are outvoted on the board I think we are pretty f’ed indefinitely.
Even if it got bad enough that the Mara’s selected a new CEO after John retires I can’t see Timmy not exerted the same brand of pressure on whoever is making the decisions.
They don’t see themselves as a problem and if they haven’t realized that yet I just don’t know what they’d need to see to realize it.
With that said, I still have hope for Schoen & Daboll and think Daboll is a good coach.
I tend to agree with Eric, we can over complicate ownership. The bottom line he hasn't hired strong personalities with winning track records since Coughlin.
what you guys dont realize is how stupid a fallacy this is. the waltons had Condoleezza Rice (obviously no football background whatsoever) interviewing sean payton. some teams have literally outsourced coaching process to firms like korn ferry (https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Journal/Issues/2019/01/07/Leagues-and-Governing-Bodies/NFL.aspx).
who is this heroic unicorn CEO out there so well equipped to judge the expertise of NFL coaches or GMs? who are the ones already employed by other teams that the giants should be emulating?
i doubt anyone has answers to those questions because i doubt those answers exist. thats why even a pretty mediocre GM like ernie accorsi was a consultant in hiring processes for like half a dozen different teams. and why a genius business man in david tepper wasted $50m+ on matt rhule. and why someone proven like sean payton commanded $100m+. it is not easy to find good football coaches/gms despite extreme demand because there is a supply problem.
you could make Tim cook or whoever you want CEO of the giants, it's not going to change the fact that the odds of finding top head coaches/gms is somewhere between 10-20%. you couldnt find an owner smarter in business or more willing to spend than steve cohen and he had to wait 3 years just to be able to get the chance to speak to no less hire the most expensive president of baseball opps in the sport to run his franchise (with 3 failed hires in between).
With that said, I still have hope for Schoen & Daboll and think Daboll is a good coach.
I tend to agree with Eric, we can over complicate ownership. The bottom line he hasn't hired strong personalities with winning track records since Coughlin.
i dont think "there will come a point" i think that point has always been there.
at the start of the century/modern era it was ernie and he was middling. middling results followed.
i think it was wellington that basically forced ernie and john to hire coughlin, and he with his winning track record came the only extended winning. i believe EA was quoted as saying coughlins interview was terrible and he wouldnt have hired him otherwise.
post coughlin it pivoted to reese who failed with mcadoo.
then it pivoted to gettleman who failed 6 ways from sunday.
now it's schoen, who brought with him daboll. if that doesnt work it will be someone new and the odds will remain long.
this is why in pretty much every coaching search since mcadoo my preference has been harbough. and if daboll doesnt work out i agree, belichick and/or vrabel would be my first calls.
Quote:
I suggest most people on this board think about changing teams. The Maras started the Giants and the are the majority owners.
You can bitch all you want but that that is the way its going to stay for awhile.
The Giants are in this predicament because they have drafted poorly and more importantly not developed their own players.
I think that's what people are going to start doing. Speaking for myself, I watch them more out of inertia than I do out of being a fan, and I don't suffer each loss the way I used to; I just lament not enjoying them anymore. It used to be a lot of fun. I want that back, which is the reason I keep coming back, but it's fading.
The people running the team some seem that bothered with trying to win, so why should I care?
Wont see too many tears around here that's for sure.
With that said, I still have hope for Schoen & Daboll and think Daboll is a good coach.
I tend to agree with Eric, we can over complicate ownership. The bottom line he hasn't hired strong personalities with winning track records since Coughlin.
Holy crap Belichick? Last thing any football team needs. He'd be an unmitigated disaster. He destroyed the Patriots in the last few years.
And the CEO can be benevolent in the way he handles employees (staff, players and coaches) or he can be a tyrant. Only the profit really matters, but if he doesn’t handle employees well, that will get around and costs will rise to where costs start to eat profits,
Quote:
In comment 16556574 seanr said:
Quote:
I suggest most people on this board think about changing teams. The Maras started the Giants and the are the majority owners.
You can bitch all you want but that that is the way its going to stay for awhile.
The Giants are in this predicament because they have drafted poorly and more importantly not developed their own players.
I think that's what people are going to start doing. Speaking for myself, I watch them more out of inertia than I do out of being a fan, and I don't suffer each loss the way I used to; I just lament not enjoying them anymore. It used to be a lot of fun. I want that back, which is the reason I keep coming back, but it's fading.
The people running the team some seem that bothered with trying to win, so why should I care?
Wont see too many tears around here that's for sure.
People love their echo chambers. Reality be damned.
The reason Tim McDonnell is theoretically being "groomed" to take over is, he's Wellington's grand son, but more than that,
he cut his teeth working in OTHER organizations, learning the foot ball personnel business.
Unlike John, who knows squat, this guy actually has a clue.
And John is NOT going to name a non Mara as his successor, so forget that notion.
You can bitch all you want but that that is the way its going to stay for awhile.
The Giants are in this predicament because they have drafted poorly and more importantly not developed their own players.
We've been one of the worst organizations in the NFL for the last decade+. Exempting ownership from criticism is laughable.
You can bitch all you want but that that is the way its going to stay for awhile.
The Giants are in this predicament because they have drafted poorly and more importantly not developed their own players.
And because the owner/CEO sucks at his job. But let’s not let facts get in the way.
Actually it is quite the oppostie we are much closer to the worst. The BROWNS have more wins in the last 10 years than the Giants. The only worse are the Jags and Jets. And that is an even worse reflection on the Giants because at least they were starting from place of prestege and a better pitch to GMs and coaches for that reason.
The way you are describing coaches and GMs are as if everybody is just guessing until you get one of the elite ones. But that suggestion is so alarmingly devoid of accountability it is amazing that it was formed into an argument.
Mara doesn't bear responsibility as a bad owner for firing our last 2X winning Super Bowl coach and proceeding to pick 3 dud GMs/coaches?
It actually looks like we have a great coach now who managed to string together a hell of a half season before that blew up. And we gave way too much credit and money to a QB that only has ever looked good when a coach can gameplan around him. And both times it had a shelf life.
What you are failing to aknowledge is that no matter how bad some people here want it to be true football is just another business. You have a small group of elite performers and a whole lot of good/average/bad ones.
If you are saying that we need one of the elite ones to win then you are actually admitting we have bad leadership.
Good leaders find ways to elevate good and average performers. Bad leaders make them look worse. There are plenty of teams above us in the win rankings the last 10 years that do this.
It is clear that our leaders make people worse.
You are missing a lot of nuance in your quite frankly inaccurate statement that we are closer to better owners than worse.
The reason Tim McDonnell is theoretically being "groomed" to take over is, he's Wellington's grand son, but more than that,
he cut his teeth working in OTHER organizations, learning the foot ball personnel business.
Unlike John, who knows squat, this guy actually has a clue.
And John is NOT going to name a non Mara as his successor, so forget that notion.
What exactly is the basis for saying Tim McDonnell has a clue?
He actually asked what their offensive identity would be after losing Barkley. After paying a QB $40M and drafting an elite WR #6, adding to a group of a 2nd round and 3rd round pick the year before as well as a receiver who has gone over 700 yards the last two years.
Is that really something a smart person says?
Thank you!
The questioning is over - and has been frankly since the day he made Kevin Gilbride a scapegoat for Mara's complete mismanagement of personnel development after Super Bowl LVI. That was followed by the scapegoating of future Hall of Fame coach Tom Coughlin and believing that Ben McAdoo, a guy who never played competitive football and whose only claim to fame was being Aaron Rodgers' coach, something my nine year old nephew could have been successful doing, was a logical solution. At which point, it was clear as day we needed this generation's version of George Young to take over football operations. But instead, Mara simply made bad decision after bad decision, from Gettleman to Schurmur to Judge, etc., trying desperately to recover from the original sin which persists to this day: Mara's inability to develop an NFL championship calibre roster starting with a quality modern NFL quarterback.
Will this change? Schoen seems to have now figured all of this out in his third year and appears to be now pushing back hard against Mara's unrelenting passive aggression for an utterly misguided agenda. Unfortunately, Schoen has learned this only after caving to Mara and making one of the worst decisions in this franchise's history in that DJ contract. Will Mara now hold him responsible if Barkley has a great year for the Eagles? Can Schoen survive this if he does? Can Daboll, who appears to be a really good young head coach, survive another bottom five finish especially if it is because he can't get Mara's "full bloom love quarterback" to be successful? In the myopic world of denial and relentless scapegoating, very unlikely.
Time will tell.
As far as John Mara goes, I don't listen to a word he says. He quickly lost faith in Ben McAdoo. And then, just as quickly, was charmed by the Bullshit Artist Joe Judge, perhaps the worst coaching hire in NFL History.
The current Maras should be content to consign themselves to counting the profits from the Pepsi Pouring Rights.
Let the true professionals run the Football Operations.
As far as John Mara goes, I don't listen to a word he says. He quickly lost faith in Ben McAdoo. And then, just as quickly, was charmed by the Bullshit Artist Joe Judge, perhaps the worst coaching hire in NFL History.
The current Maras should be content to consign themselves to counting the profits from the Pepsi Pouring Rights.
Let the true professionals run the Football Operations.
And it appears that they are
If the grandson earns his time learning that is no different than any other person learning their trade. How do all these other people become football people - they learn
Another NFL owner is not going to hire a relative of their competitor especially one linked to likely ascending to run the team
The only chance a relative has of learning the trade is with the team the family owns
If the grandson earns his time learning that is no different than any other person learning their trade. How do all these other people become football people - they learn
Another NFL owner is not going to hire a relative of their competitor especially one linked to likely ascending to run the team
The only chance a relative has of learning the trade is with the team the family owns
The issue is when ownership (or CEO) feels they must hire a family member.
This practice potentially eliminates many more qualified candidates not named Mara.
The pivot to Reese was before some think. TC started receiving short term contracts after 2010 which continued until he was let go. The drafts and other decisions show Reese driving the decisions. Gilbride was the first casualty as Ross gets promoted. Mara didn't think it was a front office problem. That was the big problem.
Giants have still not recovered and it is a big TBD if they have the right people in place.
The firewall seems to be Steve Tisch. Reportedly, he stepped in and stopped Mara from keeping Judge for a third year. So, if you believe that, he can be real check and balance to the Maras. And really be instrumental in getting this organization back on track.
If Schoen fails, Steve needs to break glass because it's an emergency...
Schoen can concentrate on the on-field product unencumbered and Mara can concentrate on operations and his league relationships, which is probably his biggest strength.
Stupidity has no limits..
I don’t find the management structure of the Giants as compelling either but it’s certainly worth knowing, as I know you are a deep dyed fan, how the structure is currently arranged.
The anti-Mara agenda on this website is not only ignorant its just annoying at this point. BBI sucks now with how many stupid posts like this come out. Whiney, bitchy, know it all group think. Take it to Twitter.
It's a football team. Root for the laundry or don't but enough with this shit!
You are missing a lot of nuance in your quite frankly inaccurate statement that we are closer to better owners than worse.
and like your new handles your statements pretend the past that doesnt suit your shitty arguments never happened.
john mara was COO from the 90's to 2005 when he became CEO. kind of stupid to focus only on one decade of his time in the job when he has 2. his father were the driving force behind hiring Coughlin but at the time he was obviously not able to fully run the organization, so it was likely John who saw to that happening. They both obviously allowed Accorsi to make the trade for Eli. One of his first big hiring decisions was promoting Jerry Reese to Gm. how did that go?
his even more important unpopular decision was correctly choosing to not "fire coughlin" more than once before SB42 when all of the over reactionary geniuses with no concept of how hard it is to actually find good coaches (like you) wanted him gone even after winning seasons.
if you want to knock all of his decisions in the post-Couglin/Reese world that's fair because they've sucked. If you want to pretend the guy is on the level of woody johnson, or dan snyder, or the jerry richardson, or the wilponzis, or james dolan or donald sterling whoever anyone who in reality would be considered the actual worst owners in sports then you need to turn in any fond memories you may have accrued prior with SB 42/46.
And agree with all saying no fucking way with Belichick. It's passed him by. The time to hire him was in 1991.
They do that too.
Unless I am reading your post incorrectly
Where did you get that the Board is making draft picks?
Quote:
You are missing a lot of nuance in your quite frankly inaccurate statement that we are closer to better owners than worse.
and like your new handles your statements pretend the past that doesnt suit your shitty arguments never happened.
john mara was COO from the 90's to 2005 when he became CEO. kind of stupid to focus only on one decade of his time in the job when he has 2. his father were the driving force behind hiring Coughlin but at the time he was obviously not able to fully run the organization, so it was likely John who saw to that happening. They both obviously allowed Accorsi to make the trade for Eli. One of his first big hiring decisions was promoting Jerry Reese to Gm. how did that go?
his even more important unpopular decision was correctly choosing to not "fire coughlin" more than once before SB42 when all of the over reactionary geniuses with no concept of how hard it is to actually find good coaches (like you) wanted him gone even after winning seasons.
if you want to knock all of his decisions in the post-Couglin/Reese world that's fair because they've sucked. If you want to pretend the guy is on the level of woody johnson, or dan snyder, or the jerry richardson, or the wilponzis, or james dolan or donald sterling whoever anyone who in reality would be considered the actual worst owners in sports then you need to turn in any fond memories you may have accrued prior with SB 42/46.
Jesus, why are you so obsessed with the idea that someone disagreeing with you needs to have some kind of history? Maybe your points are just bad?
Such as the point that you made that the Giants owners were closer to the best than the worst. Their record shows they are closer to Woody Johnson than a good owner. The only pretending taking place is that we should ignore that record because you like them or something.
The onus is on you to prove that they are closer to the better owners, my argument is supported.
Quote:
In comment 16556662 Orville Redenbacher said:
Quote:
You are missing a lot of nuance in your quite frankly inaccurate statement that we are closer to better owners than worse.
and like your new handles your statements pretend the past that doesnt suit your shitty arguments never happened.
john mara was COO from the 90's to 2005 when he became CEO. kind of stupid to focus only on one decade of his time in the job when he has 2. his father were the driving force behind hiring Coughlin but at the time he was obviously not able to fully run the organization, so it was likely John who saw to that happening. They both obviously allowed Accorsi to make the trade for Eli. One of his first big hiring decisions was promoting Jerry Reese to Gm. how did that go?
his even more important unpopular decision was correctly choosing to not "fire coughlin" more than once before SB42 when all of the over reactionary geniuses with no concept of how hard it is to actually find good coaches (like you) wanted him gone even after winning seasons.
if you want to knock all of his decisions in the post-Couglin/Reese world that's fair because they've sucked. If you want to pretend the guy is on the level of woody johnson, or dan snyder, or the jerry richardson, or the wilponzis, or james dolan or donald sterling whoever anyone who in reality would be considered the actual worst owners in sports then you need to turn in any fond memories you may have accrued prior with SB 42/46.
Jesus, why are you so obsessed with the idea that someone disagreeing with you needs to have some kind of history? Maybe your points are just bad?
Such as the point that you made that the Giants owners were closer to the best than the worst. Their record shows they are closer to Woody Johnson than a good owner. The only pretending taking place is that we should ignore that record because you like them or something.
The onus is on you to prove that they are closer to the better owners, my argument is supported.
your argument is only supported by you cherry picking your history. John Mara started running the day to day in the early 2000's, since then how many owners have more than his 2 SB rings? how many owners have 1?
Get a grip dude.
10 years of bottom of the industry performance as a CEO of a multi-billion entity gets you fired typically. You might as well be talking about him inveting the walkman.
Telling someone they are cherry picking with 10 years of data is intellectually dishonst.
Get a grip dude.
10 years of bottom of the industry performance as a CEO of a multi-billion entity gets you fired typically. You might as well be talking about him inveting the walkman.
Telling someone they are cherry picking with 10 years of data is intellectually dishonst.
using someone's entire history isn't intellectually dishonest or cherry picking, it's reality.
since you're into intellectual honesty, why dont you confirm your prior handle(s)?
You seem to be confused by that, and really a lot of things so this is all of my time that I have for you on this one bucko.
You seem to be confused by that, and really a lot of things so this is all of my time that I have for you on this one bucko.
Since 2008, the Rooney family has brought in several investors for the team while retaining control of the team itself. This came about so that the team could comply with NFL ownership regulations. Dan Rooney, and his son, Art Rooney II, president of the franchise, wanted to stay involved with the franchise, while two of the brothers – Timothy and Patrick – wanted to further pursue racetracks that they own in Florida and New York
using someone's entire history isn't intellectually dishonest or cherry picking, it's reality.
since you're into intellectual honesty, why dont you confirm your prior handle(s)?
Those SBs under Mara's "watch" are approaching distant memory status. The last one was twelve seasons ago. Since then, there have been three winning seasons, two playoff appearances, one playoff win, and an overall record of 76-118-1 (39%).
That is a lot of data to suggest we have become a poorly run franchise - consistently - under Mara's watch.
And let's not act like those last two SB seasons were predictable. They came out of nowhere. That doesn't diminish the outcome, but they were very much the magic carpet ride variety.
Quote:
using someone's entire history isn't intellectually dishonest or cherry picking, it's reality.
since you're into intellectual honesty, why dont you confirm your prior handle(s)?
Those SBs under Mara's "watch" are approaching distant memory status. The last one was twelve seasons ago. Since then, there have been three winning seasons, two playoff appearances, one playoff win, and an overall record of 76-118-1 (39%).
That is a lot of data to suggest we have become a poorly run franchise - consistently - under Mara's watch.
And let's not act like those last two SB seasons were predictable. They came out of nowhere. That doesn't diminish the outcome, but they were very much the magic carpet ride variety.
ownerships dont turn over like coaches or gms. the time horizon is very different so judging them is different than wins and losses over a partial period.
the super bowls may have been "magic carpet" but over the full coughlin era they were usually .500 or better. do you think hiring jerry reese was an important element of that? tom coughlin? the eli manning trade/extensions? those were all elements of the magic carpet and the vast majority of owners have zero rings magic carpet or otherwise.
Quote:
In comment 16556574 seanr said:
Quote:
I suggest most people on this board think about changing teams. The Maras started the Giants and the are the majority owners.
You can bitch all you want but that that is the way its going to stay for awhile.
The Giants are in this predicament because they have drafted poorly and more importantly not developed their own players.
Good post!
Bitching about your favorite teams ownership is like pissing and moaning about the brand of car you choose to drive. This team has been the possession of the Mara family since 1925. It aint going to change nor should it. If you hate John Mara so much go root for another team. The guy, by all accounts sounds like a tremendous person to work for.
This post shows a stunning lack of awareness about how fandom works. When the team you grew up loving is making the same mistakes over and over again, it is natural to get frustrated with those situations and complain about them. Nobody on here has ever seriously suggested the Maras and Tiches sell the team - they complain about John Mara’s terrible football instincts being a large factor in decisions. Full stop.
Saying “go route for another team” is like telling people if their preferred political candidate loses an election, they should move to another country. It’s a 5 year old’s understanding of the world.
Actually that’s EXACTLY what I am suggesting. I wish the Manning family would/could purchase this franchise and bring it back to the glory that is used to me. Great football mind to bring in the talent and find the right people to manage. I can dream
Quote:
Art Rooney was the founder and owner of the team, from its establishment as a semi-independent team in the Western Pennsylvania Professional Football Circuit in 1921 until his death in 1988. Following Art's death, ownership of the franchise transferred to Art's oldest son, Dan Rooney. Front office operations have passed from Dan Rooney to his son and current team president, Art Rooney II, in 2017 upon the death of Dan Rooney.
Since 2008, the Rooney family has brought in several investors for the team while retaining control of the team itself. This came about so that the team could comply with NFL ownership regulations. Dan Rooney, and his son, Art Rooney II, president of the franchise, wanted to stay involved with the franchise, while two of the brothers – Timothy and Patrick – wanted to further pursue racetracks that they own in Florida and New York
Giants have one of the 3rd worst record over the past 10 years, the Steelers haven't been under .500 since 2003.
Its not the nepotism that bothers people as much as it is the fact that they're doubling down on a CEO that clearly doesn't know how to run a successful football team because of it. The bottom line is if John were hired to run this team, he likely would have been let go years ago.
Quote:
bitch and moan this much about the Rooney's and their nepotism? It's never ending with some on the board. With the access to watch every team in the NFL, its easier than ever to watch other teams and find one that aligns with your way of thinking. Probably will reduce the amount of stress in your life
Quote:
Art Rooney was the founder and owner of the team, from its establishment as a semi-independent team in the Western Pennsylvania Professional Football Circuit in 1921 until his death in 1988. Following Art's death, ownership of the franchise transferred to Art's oldest son, Dan Rooney. Front office operations have passed from Dan Rooney to his son and current team president, Art Rooney II, in 2017 upon the death of Dan Rooney.
Since 2008, the Rooney family has brought in several investors for the team while retaining control of the team itself. This came about so that the team could comply with NFL ownership regulations. Dan Rooney, and his son, Art Rooney II, president of the franchise, wanted to stay involved with the franchise, while two of the brothers – Timothy and Patrick – wanted to further pursue racetracks that they own in Florida and New York
Giants have one of the 3rd worst record over the past 10 years, the Steelers haven't been under .500 since 2003.
Its not the nepotism that bothers people as much as it is the fact that they're doubling down on a CEO that clearly doesn't know how to run a successful football team because of it. The bottom line is if John were hired to run this team, he likely would have been let go years ago.
the rooneys were fortunate to have a really strong gm (kevin colbert) for 21 years and even more fortunate for him to started his career sharing a number of years with a HOF coach (cowher).
the giants could have been fortunate enough to have the same with Reese, except when he got his chance to hire a coach they hired a lemon instead of mike tomlin. so while successful, his tenure ended halfway through what it could/should have been.
tomlin has been there for 15 years now and you can bet he made things a lot easier to transition to new GM omar khan a couple years ago. colbert's last 1st round pick kenny pickett tanked in Khan's first year but they were still a good team because they have a good coach who has them compteitive regardless of circumstances.
id also suggest there's always some grass is greener - the last time the steelers won a playoff game ben eli and macadoo were still wearing blue (2016) so i guarantee the steel curtain interactive forum isnt all sunshine and rainbows (pretty sure ive seen some low murmur 'fire tomlin' stuff in the wild though that may not be representative). they have negative point differentials in 4 of the last 5 years despite winning records. which is imo the value of a great coach and the absolute last thing they should consider doing is moving on from tomlin even if he hasnt won a playoff game in almost a decade.
ownerships dont turn over like coaches or gms. the time horizon is very different so judging them is different than wins and losses over a partial period.
the super bowls may have been "magic carpet" but over the full coughlin era they were usually .500 or better. do you think hiring jerry reese was an important element of that? tom coughlin? the eli manning trade/extensions? those were all elements of the magic carpet and the vast majority of owners have zero rings magic carpet or otherwise.
I don't know what a partial period is.
Again, it's been over a decade. Twelve years. For any reasonable person, that seems like a credible amount of time to pass judgement.
But help me understand your overall point. Are you suggesting that criticizing Mara/ownership is off limits?
Quote:
ownerships dont turn over like coaches or gms. the time horizon is very different so judging them is different than wins and losses over a partial period.
the super bowls may have been "magic carpet" but over the full coughlin era they were usually .500 or better. do you think hiring jerry reese was an important element of that? tom coughlin? the eli manning trade/extensions? those were all elements of the magic carpet and the vast majority of owners have zero rings magic carpet or otherwise.
I don't know what a partial period is.
Again, it's been over a decade. Twelve years. For any reasonable person, that seems like a credible amount of time to pass judgement.
But help me understand your overall point. Are you suggesting that criticizing Mara/ownership is off limits?
'partial' isn't exactly a complicated word to understand. a subset as opposed to an entire thing.
i never suggested criticizing mara/ownership is off limits, i've done it plenty myself including earlier in the thread. his track record of poor hiring decisions post-Reese/Coughlin speaks for itself.
my overall point has been that he is farther from the worst owners than the best because over his first full decade he had one of the better runs of any nfl org in the modern era. i'm also fairly certain the version of "great owner" in most people's heads doesnt even actually exist anywhere. it wasn't long ago david tepper was everyone's white knight when he boldly 'stole' matt rhule. how did that work out? before stumbling into andy reid, clark hunt wasnt doing so hot either. anyone think he ends up with patrick mahomes or a dynasty if philadelphia hadnt fired andy reid?
Listen, people will STFU when we start winning consistently. It's really that simple.
Listen, people will STFU when we start winning consistently. It's really that simple.
i would venture to guess that something like 28 teams are routinely cursing their ownerships/management. maybe higher. kraft helped build a modern dynasty that will never be topped, and the tide is even turning on him (and the rest of the front office he has listed on his website...which is his son).
jeffrey lurie is one of the only owners i can think of whose teams have been consistently good for almost his entire tenure, his 1 super bowl win with foles was lucky but he got there 2 other times with different coaches each time.
i can think of a lot of others who were a lot worse than mara.
some might call it a tragic kingdom.
Quote:
There's no doubt there is a large number of incompetent ownership groups on the NFL. There's also no doubt that number includes the Giants.
some might call it a tragic kingdom.
It makes for many a depressing Sunday morning.
my overall point has been that he is farther from the worst owners than the best because over his first full decade he had one of the better runs of any nfl org in the modern era. i'm also fairly certain the version of "great owner" in most people's heads doesnt even actually exist anywhere. it wasn't long ago david tepper was everyone's white knight when he boldly 'stole' matt rhule. how did that work out? before stumbling into andy reid, clark hunt wasnt doing so hot either. anyone think he ends up with patrick mahomes or a dynasty if philadelphia hadnt fired andy reid?
The record of the organization since the last SB win is without dispute - one of the worst performances in the NFL over the last 12 years. And those twelve years is more than a credible "partial period" to pass judgment on the Mara's stewardship.
Look the NFL is dynamic, and things can certainly change. But right now, Mara is closer to being in the worst group of owners than the best group right now.
If Mara wasn't so sentimental about trying to extend Eli's career for one more magic run (or two), and if he didn't predictably hire that dolt Gettleman based on Accorsi's fake wide search, perhaps a lot of this could have been avoided. The number of bad decisions in the eight-year window is astounding. And nearly all of it can be traced right back to Mara.
i dont recall having ever deployed that strategy during a fun playoff season like 2022 as you did, but different strokes for different folks i guess.
Quote:
my overall point has been that he is farther from the worst owners than the best because over his first full decade he had one of the better runs of any nfl org in the modern era. i'm also fairly certain the version of "great owner" in most people's heads doesnt even actually exist anywhere. it wasn't long ago david tepper was everyone's white knight when he boldly 'stole' matt rhule. how did that work out? before stumbling into andy reid, clark hunt wasnt doing so hot either. anyone think he ends up with patrick mahomes or a dynasty if philadelphia hadnt fired andy reid?
The record of the organization since the last SB win is without dispute - one of the worst performances in the NFL over the last 12 years. And those twelve years is more than a credible "partial period" to pass judgment on the Mara's stewardship.
Look the NFL is dynamic, and things can certainly change. But right now, Mara is closer to being in the worst group of owners than the best group right now.
If Mara wasn't so sentimental about trying to extend Eli's career for one more magic run (or two), and if he didn't predictably hire that dolt Gettleman based on Accorsi's fake wide search, perhaps a lot of this could have been avoided. The number of bad decisions in the eight-year window is astounding. And nearly all of it can be traced right back to Mara.
in the nfl as in life almost all gets traced back to good or bad hiring decisions. problem is statistically the vast majority of high level nfl hires are bad. that game is rigged against. there are very few proven coaches and the few that are do not hit often hit the open market.
bad decisions have hit mara the same as arthur blank, david tepper, jerry jones, dan snyder, the davis family, the spanos family, the kroenke family, the hunt family, the brown family, jimmy haslem, the richardson family, the mcnair family, and all manner of billionaire elites who've conquered other industries just the same.
you may recall the popular choice over gettleman was john dorsey, who i think briefly became the highest paid GM in the nfl for the browns. how did things work out for him outside of andy reid's shadow? about the same as matt rhule and tepper.
You know who is very competent and arguably brilliant? Steve Bisciotti, who owns the Ravens. Surprise, surprise.
So earlier you were saying that it is really all about the coach, and I imagine a franchise QB would help too.
You want to give John Mara credit for that early success when he wasn't even in charge when those choices were made?
Can you imagine sitting in a meeting about evaluating someone and saying ignore the data from the last 10 years. All I care about data 12 years and older!
You don't even realize how bad other parts of your argument are either.
Saying that other owners are bad and the position never really changes doesn't help your point.
John Mara's results stand out as poor even amongst that group of nepotists that can't lose their jobs.
You seem to lack self awareness about your bias. But hey! That makes you exactly like John Mara! No wonder you want to die on this rediculous hill where you cherry pick old, old data and accuse others of cherry picking on a VERY reasonable set of data.
Can we start with the last statement; what evidence do you have that all the 'bad' decisions actually trace back to John Mara.
More to your point, I believe you have the history of that period totally wrong. First, the Giants actually started to make the move to move on from Eli when they selected Davis Webb at the 2017 draft. And the botched 'replacement' of Eli with Geno Smith that fall was supposed to be the next step. Ironically if they had started Webb instead that day, no matter how badly he played, Reese/McAdoo might still be around.
There is also every indication that the Giants were all-in on getting a QB with the 2nd pick in the 2018 draft. Certainly no team did more due diligence on the QBs than the Giants did that spring. In the end, though, they decided (see below) that none of the QBs available were worth the pick (as did pretty much the rest of the league) and they ended up taking Barkley, the best player available (by far) instead.
Re Gettleman: The Giants had a long-term plan to replace Reese with Abrams when the former opted to retire, but everything got accelerated when Reese was unexpectedly fired at the end of the 2017 season. The plan was still to ultimately promote Abrams but he didn't have much in the way of personnel experience so they went looking for someone with that kind of experience to at least shepherd them thru the transition from the Eli era, and Gettleman, a personnel guy with GM experience and Giants ties was the perfect candidate. Didn't quite work out the way they wanted, but it was hardly moronic. Indeed, it was widely cheered on this board at the time.
As an aside speaking of the ownership business, the Giants had a big front-office meeting about ten days ahead of the 2018 draft (if my memory serves me correctly I believe Eric reported it). We never heard what it was about, but I suspect that the personnel people wanted to report that they had come to the conclusion that a QB wasn't in the cards and they wanted to go in another direction.
If you send me headshots maybe I can get you a role in my next film!
So earlier you were saying that it is really all about the coach, and I imagine a franchise QB would help too.
You want to give John Mara credit for that early success when he wasn't even in charge when those choices were made?
Can you imagine sitting in a meeting about evaluating someone and saying ignore the data from the last 10 years. All I care about data 12 years and older!
You don't even realize how bad other parts of your argument are either.
Saying that other owners are bad and the position never really changes doesn't help your point.
John Mara's results stand out as poor even amongst that group of nepotists that can't lose their jobs.
You seem to lack self awareness about your bias. But hey! That makes you exactly like John Mara! No wonder you want to die on this rediculous hill where you cherry pick old, old data and accuse others of cherry picking on a VERY reasonable set of data.
holy shit your inability to understand simple history is matched only by hopeless depravity.
john mara was running the franchise years before coughlin was hired or eli drafted because his father was well into his 80's. any simple google search will turn up articles like the one lined below from aug 2003. wellington was literally battling freaking cancer less than a year after the hiring of coughlin/drafting eli, before passing early in their just their second seasons. Even if you dont want to give john mara credit for hiring coughlin since it was wellington's expressed preference, he chose to keep him when trolling schmucks like you had their pitchforks out in 06-07. Jerry Reese was promoted to GM 2 years after Wellington passed.
https://www.forbes.com/2003/08/29/cz_mb_0829giants.html - ( New Window )
Maybe, just maybe, Wellington kept John's influence at bay. Because we sure as hell know if it isn't time is not kind to what that looks like.
Why are you dying on this hill? You aren't making good arguments? And you are accusing me of weird things and getting agitated.
You should be agitated with yourself for making these bad points and grinding yourself into the ground with them.
Quote:
There's no doubt there is a large number of incompetent ownership groups on the NFL. There's also no doubt that number includes the Giants.
You know who is very competent and arguably brilliant? Steve Bisciotti, who owns the Ravens. Surprise, surprise.
Think the Giants even considered drafting Lamar? Well, we've seen on Hard Knocks that they were done drafting a WR who "has some dawg in him"...but Schoen also told us they have a different system for scouting QBs. One suspects they scout for Eli clones that will sell Toyotas and Dunkin Donuts.
I'm fine with the owner interfering if the owner is smart.
Maybe, just maybe, Wellington kept John's influence at bay. Because we sure as hell know if it isn't time is not kind to what that looks like.
Why are you dying on this hill? You aren't making good arguments? And you are accusing me of weird things and getting agitated.
You should be agitated with yourself for making these bad points and grinding yourself into the ground with them.
agitated isn't the right word so much as dumbfounded at volumetric overload of uncut stupidity.
am i understanding this ghost of producer theory correctly that it was the ghost of wellington that ran the org through the 2 SB's in 2008 and 2012 after having passed at 89 in 2005?
why wasn't the franchise running better in the 90's? did he get more powerful posthumously like obi wan?
Re Gettleman: The Giants had a long-term plan to replace Reese with Abrams when the former opted to retire, but everything got accelerated when Reese was unexpectedly fired at the end of the 2017 season. The plan was still to ultimately promote Abrams but he didn't have much in the way of personnel experience so they went looking for someone with that kind of experience to at least shepherd them thru the transition from the Eli era, and Gettleman, a personnel guy with GM experience and Giants ties was the perfect candidate. Didn't quite work out the way they wanted, but it was hardly moronic. Indeed, it was widely cheered on this board at the time.
I was highly critical of the Gettleman hire, particularly the way it was conducted. Many of us predicted it a few days after Mara made Reese and McAdoo his fall guys. The Accorsi search as a joke.
Gettleman was an aging man who was unceremoniously dismissed in Carolina. And I contend a lot of the success Gettleman had in Carolina was with players Marty Hurney acquired - Newton, Kuechly, Norman, Davis, Stewart, Olson, Ginn, etc.
The only reason he got this job was (1) he knew the "Giants Way", which Mara revered, and (2) Accorsi knew that's what Mara wanted. Accorsi has admitted he felt guilty not recommending Gettleman when Reese got the job.
That hire set this organization back at least five years. The guy was an unmitigated disaster from the way he did his job to the way he carried himself...
I'm fine with the owner interfering if the owner is smart.
ah yes the genius of the organization who missed on their first choice jason garrett and had to settle for backup plan john harbough and then took hayden hurst 7 picks ahead of lamar.
credit where it's due they are an excellent organization - mostly thanks to HOF'er Ozzie Newsome whose presence there dates back 3+ decades to legendary fan friendly owner art modell.
Fortunately there is a way to assess this, given it's a game where the wins and losses are recorded.
Over the last 10 seasons only 2 teams have won 60 or fewer games, and earned there way into the second round of the playoffs 1 or fewer times -- the Giants and the Jets.
ah yes the genius of the organization who missed on their first choice jason garrett and had to settle for backup plan john harbough and then took hayden hurst 7 picks ahead of lamar.
So, you are dinging the Ravens because they didn't have Harbaugh as their first HC choice and didn't draft LJax over Hurst?
Are you suggesting they got lucky with those situations?
But instead of cherry picking stats have you thought about considering only data 12 years or older?
You know, the typical way to evaluate performance
Everyone knows the better teams with the better owners have only been winning organizations 12 or more years ago
Quote:
There's no doubt there is a large number of incompetent ownership groups on the NFL. There's also no doubt that number includes the Giants.
Fortunately there is a way to assess this, given it's a game where the wins and losses are recorded.
Over the last 10 seasons only 2 teams have won 60 or fewer games, and earned there way into the second round of the playoffs 1 or fewer times -- the Giants and the Jets.
I went with 12 years because I thought that was a credible period of experience vs just a partial period... ;)
Quote:
There's no doubt there is a large number of incompetent ownership groups on the NFL. There's also no doubt that number includes the Giants.
Fortunately there is a way to assess this, given it's a game where the wins and losses are recorded.
Over the last 10 seasons only 2 teams have won 60 or fewer games, and earned there way into the second round of the playoffs 1 or fewer times -- the Giants and the Jets.
The same people telling us now to stop being negative were saying that in 2014 as well.
I just don't see the cause for optimism, besides the league being parity-based on order to prop up dumb teams like the Giants.
Quote:
ah yes the genius of the organization who missed on their first choice jason garrett and had to settle for backup plan john harbough and then took hayden hurst 7 picks ahead of lamar.
So, you are dinging the Ravens because they didn't have Harbaugh as their first HC choice and didn't draft LJax over Hurst?
Are you suggesting they got lucky with those situations?
im saying it will help any owner look smart to walk into a situation that already has a super bowl winning HOF gm.
any breaks ozzie got id considered earned because everyone gets breaks every now and then, but yes those were 2 very important breaks he got that basically defined the last 12 years or so of raven football (and certainly helped what otherwise would have been a difficult transition beyond ozzie).
Quote:
There's no doubt there is a large number of incompetent ownership groups on the NFL. There's also no doubt that number includes the Giants.
Fortunately there is a way to assess this, given it's a game where the wins and losses are recorded.
Over the last 10 seasons only 2 teams have won 60 or fewer games, and earned there way into the second round of the playoffs 1 or fewer times -- the Giants and the Jets.
the better way to assess ownerships is over their full time horizons whatever that is - nobody is disputing the reality that the giants have sucked the last decade.
Quote:
In comment 16557233 Go Terps said:
Quote:
There's no doubt there is a large number of incompetent ownership groups on the NFL. There's also no doubt that number includes the Giants.
Fortunately there is a way to assess this, given it's a game where the wins and losses are recorded.
Over the last 10 seasons only 2 teams have won 60 or fewer games, and earned there way into the second round of the playoffs 1 or fewer times -- the Giants and the Jets.
The same people telling us now to stop being negative were saying that in 2014 as well.
I just don't see the cause for optimism, besides the league being parity-based on order to prop up dumb teams like the Giants.
humor me, what exactly was the claim against mara in 2014?
ronnie barnes the reason nicks/cruz got injured?
and that snee retired early?
or the drafts went to shit?
that they chose to pay injury prone players like schwartz/beason over someone like linval joseph?
in 2014 off 2 super bowls in 6 years what was a non-meddling owner supposed to do exactly?
worst = khan .307 (harris technically lower at .235 but only 1 year)
mara family = .526 all time (14th)
john 2005+ = .471 (would rank 22nd)
an amazing statistical quirk - tom coughlin was exactly .531 in both jax (68-60) and nyg (102-90) as head coach.
from 2005-2017 when Reese got fired JM was 110-98 (.528).
wheels off w/ dg/shurmur/judge (19-46, .292).
through 2 years daboll/schoen are .454.
in case it's not obvious enough when he's had competent coach/gm he was slightly above avg. when he's had to hire new ones he's sucked (which is probably why he always tried to outsource).
should also be in the "obvious" category that the jury is still out on this regime, but in case it's not #2 on the list is the pegula's, who took over in 2014 but are in that slot bc after firing rex ryan they nailed the mcdermott hire in 2017 (.640). through 2 years however he had the same win totals as daboll (9 yr 1 & 6 yr 2) with big negative point differentials each year. i'm not saying that's predictive of anything but i bet bills fans in 2019 weren't overflowing with optimism. they hadnt won a playoff game in over 2 decades and were on year 6 with new ownership. they probaby dont even realize it now since mcdermott is on most "hot seat" lists. if they are foolish enough to fire him and dabs doesnt work out id send a jet to buffalo asap, with vrabel and his .545 right behind on standby.
Which current NFL owners have the highest win percentage? - ( New Window )
Boy you just love picking up that shovel and digging a deeper grave.
You obliterate your own argument here. You said John Mara was closer to the best than the worst. 22 out of 32 is literally not that.
It doesn’t matter how much of the decision was John’s or Wellingtons before John took over. Because John wasn’t in charge. Do you know how many businesses change after the torch is officially passed to a son? Wearing the crown is different.
Do you honestly think it is more likely that John Mara was the driving force behind the Giants best moves and then when he was put in charge all of a sudden he couldn’t pick a good GM or coach?
You can grab and twist all the data you want. Your argument is a bad one. You want to talk about if the Giants are a storied franchise great, yes, we agree.
You want to prop up John Mara as a leader when even if you include data 12+ years old, where he was part of group decisions to pick a great coach and QB he STILL is 22nd. And you are dying on the hill that he is “closer to the best.”
Maybe you can accept that again, like Mara you are using data to try to prove out your feelings. But just because you believe it with all your heart doesn’t make it a good point
Fortunately there is a way to assess this, given it's a game where the wins and losses are recorded.
Over the last 10 seasons only 2 teams have won 60 or fewer games, and earned there way into the second round of the playoffs 1 or fewer times -- the Giants and the Jets.
the better way to assess ownerships is over their full time horizons whatever that is - nobody is disputing the reality that the giants have sucked the last decade.
Maybe for a more historical analysis, for instance worst owners of all time. But if the question is who are the worst owners today, a 10-year window seems pretty sufficient.
Just as we wouldn't judge the best privately owned companies today on their earnings 10+ years ago. Extending the window any further teeters on ignoring one of the fundamentals of business and sports -- that people are capable of being formerly good at something.
Win-Loss record is not earnings.
The bottom line is that unless you have studied the Giants business ledger, you have no idea if JM is a good CEO, or a bad one.
There's a lot of opinion bias as to his role in the football side of things. JM is routinely blamed for retaining DJones. but no credit for Dex, or AThomas. I'm guessing JM has a voice, but none of us know how much of a voice, or whether it is the decision making voice regarding the football side of things.
Quote:
There's no doubt there is a large number of incompetent ownership groups on the NFL. There's also no doubt that number includes the Giants.
Fortunately there is a way to assess this, given it's a game where the wins and losses are recorded.
Over the last 10 seasons only 2 teams have won 60 or fewer games, and earned there way into the second round of the playoffs 1 or fewer times -- the Giants and the Jets.
the better way to assess ownerships is over their full time horizons whatever that is - nobody is disputing the reality that the giants have sucked the last decade.
Maybe for a more historical analysis, for instance worst owners of all time. But if the question is who are the worst owners today, a 10-year window seems pretty sufficient.
Just as we wouldn't judge the best privately owned companies today on their earnings 10+ years ago. Extending the window any further teeters on ignoring one of the fundamentals of business and sports -- that people are capable of being formerly good at something.
you think if a F500 CEO had a 12 year run in of top 1/3 performance in their industry, where the company grew by many multiples, and had some inarguable individual award winning product developments, that wouldn't be part of a consideration because of a more recent bad run of poor performance? congrats you've basically just made the case for apple not bringing steve jobs back in 1997 because next was a 12 year performance turd. and no im not saying john mara is steve jobs - just pointing out the insanity of ignoring any sort of business history because running organizations is not a short term endeavor like a head coach.
when looking at pretty apples to apples data (which like growth of a business, wins/losses are) there is no reason to focus only on partial data just because it's more convenient to your argument. bigger sample sizes are almost always better bc more data is better than less data, with the obvious exception being the predictive power of 3rd down only defensive stats from only the most recent season.
if we were to only quantify the stupidity of producer's ghost using this thread it's still pretty impressive but add in his prior posts as darwinian etc and it's obvious he's not playing with a full deck. why ignore history?
Win-Loss record is not earnings.
The bottom line is that unless you have studied the Giants business ledger, you have no idea if JM is a good CEO, or a bad one.
There's a lot of opinion bias as to his role in the football side of things. JM is routinely blamed for retaining DJones. but no credit for Dex, or AThomas. I'm guessing JM has a voice, but none of us know how much of a voice, or whether it is the decision making voice regarding the football side of things.
CEOs are judged on everything. he should be judged on everything important he's done which in my view clearly includes key hires that report to him, especially when your company is basically making 1 product. he can be judged on the stadium, any rules he's proposed/voted for in competition committee, the esteem or lack of esteem people who work for the giants have for the organization, etc. he owns some % of all the organizations successes/failures because that is how leadership works. ignoring the successes he has had and taking out of context the failures is basically just chanting from the cheap seats.
terps gave away the game earlier in the thread when he tried to back pat himself as being on the forefront of this crusade in 2014. sure. 2 years after winning his 2nd SB of the decade, of course it was obvious any competent owner was going to...what? blow things up and clean house? fire jerry reese at age 50 with a 71-58 record? fire coughlin bc it's so easy to find coaches 16 games over .500 who've won super bowls? move on from eli at age 33?
the only owner i can think of who came anywhere close to doing that sort of thing successfully was jeffrey lurie, and even in that scenario (which included 0 super bowl rings) id personally take the side that says moving on from andy reid in 2012 has proven to be a pretty colossal mistake.
Win-Loss record is not earnings.
The bottom line is that unless you have studied the Giants business ledger, you have no idea if JM is a good CEO, or a bad one.
There's a lot of opinion bias as to his role in the football side of things. JM is routinely blamed for retaining DJones. but no credit for Dex, or AThomas. I'm guessing JM has a voice, but none of us know how much of a voice, or whether it is the decision making voice regarding the football side of things.
A corpse makes gobs of money running an NFL franchise, especially in NYC.
Most businesses do not collude with their 31 closest competitors to maximize shared revenues like TV contracts.
Not only that, most businesses are judged pretty much only by the money they make. There is no equivalent and clear value like a win-loss record that you’d be hard pressed to find any owner who wouldn’t stress the importance of. I bet owners brag more about wins than profits. Can you think of a parallel in business to that?
Money is paramount in business but other key metrics matter. Extending your logic you could say “The Sackler’s were great leaders they made so much money” I’d hope we need not be so reductive that is the only way we are evaluating leaders. The non-monetary losses they posted beyond profits were as evident as the non-monetary losses the Giants posted.
Beyond that the medium Pepsi? The way he shot his own GM in the foot around negotiations for his most expensive player because he just can’t control the love he has for DJ. These are the markers of a good business man?
And that may have indeed been the case for the Giants and the Maras prior to George Young. A good case could be made that without the Rozelle appointment of Young, this team today would simply be the Browns or the Cardinals. Legacy NFL franchises that are winless in the Super Bowl Era, appearing in just a single championship game between them! But once the Giants got a taste of winning, with the two LT Super Bowls XXI and XXV, the identity and culture of the entire franchise changed. And Ernie Accorsi followed up on George Young's success by delivering the two ELI Super Bowls XLII and XLVI. And today the Lombardi trophy case is the shrine on which this franchise prides itself and for which the fans expect to be competing for every year. It is reminiscent of the "Pretty Woman" quote: "...but now everything is different, and you've changed that. And you can't change back. I want more".
So the argument can be made that the Maras are simply the Wrigleys, skilled in the art of maximizing earnings through kumbaya and fan sentimentality rather than winning championships. And without the very effective assertion of two talented GMs, the Giants would likely still be winless in the Super Bowl era. Which means that the GM in this particular franchise is the causal agent for any success in terms of winning championships. Is Schoen just another Gettleman? Or is he a successor to Young/Accorsi? So far, the results are decidedly mixed and the future appears to be no less murky than the day he arrived.
And that may have indeed been the case for the Giants and the Maras prior to George Young. A good case could be made that without the Rozelle appointment of Young, this team today would simply be the Browns or the Cardinals. Legacy NFL franchises that are winless in the Super Bowl Era, appearing in just a single championship game between them! But once the Giants got a taste of winning, with the two LT Super Bowls XXI and XXV, the identity and culture of the entire franchise changed. And Ernie Accorsi followed up on George Young's success by delivering the two ELI Super Bowls XLII and XLVI. And today the Lombardi trophy case is the shrine on which this franchise prides itself and for which the fans expect to be competing for every year. It is reminiscent of the "Pretty Woman" quote: "...but now everything is different, and you've changed that. And you can't change back. I want more".
So the argument can be made that the Maras are simply the Wrigleys, skilled in the art of maximizing earnings through kumbaya and fan sentimentality rather than winning championships. And without the very effective assertion of two talented GMs, the Giants would likely still be winless in the Super Bowl era. Which means that the GM in this particular franchise is the causal agent for any success in terms of winning championships. Is Schoen just another Gettleman? Or is he a successor to Young/Accorsi? So far, the results are decidedly mixed and the future appears to be no less murky than the day he arrived.
slight correction Mike, yes championships are by far the most important yardstick in sports by which everyone of consequence is first measured, but when it's clear John's championships were won primarily by the ghost of his father, that needs to be taken into account.
If 8 is the line, I think the market would say "Brand X used to live above the line, now they generally live below it."
And again, I am not talking legacy, I am talking snapshot-in-time ability. If we're picking the top guy, who then in turn hires the football leaders, I am certainly not picking John Mara.
1. You were the one that made the point that it is only the coach that matters.
2. Wellington was in charge when TC was hired. You can try to distribute as much credit away from the actual CEO to his son but there is a big hole there.
3. Why could John supposedly spearhead this great coaching choice as a #2 but as the #1 fail at the task miserably the next 3 times. Isn't it possible John not being in charge of that process created better results?
4. The only good coach picked as a #1 happened when he was publicly shamed and his co-owner had to push him to fire the last embarassment. And that good coach will likely be gone because John would rather overpay an marginal QB talent that he loves.
A man with this resume you want to claim was the force behind hiring our last good coach? Without evidence beyond a take down of an old man?
You posted the stat 22/32 for John Mara's tenure. That is factually closer to the worst than the best. Which just completely destroys your original point.
You are telling people they are cherry picking using 10 years of data as you try to use 12+ year old data.
You are so desperate to give John Mara all the credit for a hire when he was not in charge that you are acting like Wellington Mara, a real legend, couldn't find his way home.
You are like John when he criticized the rest of the offense to try to make DJ look better. Your love for John is blinding you from rational thought.
Win-Loss record is not earnings.
The bottom line is that unless you have studied the Giants business ledger, you have no idea if JM is a good CEO, or a bad one.
There's a lot of opinion bias as to his role in the football side of things. JM is routinely blamed for retaining DJones. but no credit for Dex, or AThomas. I'm guessing JM has a voice, but none of us know how much of a voice, or whether it is the decision making voice regarding the football side of things.
Are you talking about their PnL? Because it's nearly impossible for an NFL team not to be swimming in deep profits. The league prints money.
Quote:
slight correction Mike, yes championships are by far the most important yardstick in sports by which everyone of consequence is first measured, but when it's clear John's championships were won primarily by the ghost of his father, that needs to be taken into account.
1. You were the one that made the point that it is only the coach that matters.
2. Wellington was in charge when TC was hired. You can try to distribute as much credit away from the actual CEO to his son but there is a big hole there.
3. Why could John supposedly spearhead this great coaching choice as a #2 but as the #1 fail at the task miserably the next 3 times. Isn't it possible John not being in charge of that process created better results?
4. The only good coach picked as a #1 happened when he was publicly shamed and his co-owner had to push him to fire the last embarassment. And that good coach will likely be gone because John would rather overpay an marginal QB talent that he loves.
A man with this resume you want to claim was the force behind hiring our last good coach? Without evidence beyond a take down of an old man?
You posted the stat 22/32 for John Mara's tenure. That is factually closer to the worst than the best. Which just completely destroys your original point.
You are telling people they are cherry picking using 10 years of data as you try to use 12+ year old data.
You are so desperate to give John Mara all the credit for a hire when he was not in charge that you are acting like Wellington Mara, a real legend, couldn't find his way home.
You are like John when he criticized the rest of the offense to try to make DJ look better. Your love for John is blinding you from rational thought.
wellington was 88 years old battling cancer when they hired coughlin. he died 2 years before they hired jerry reese. you can create as many handles as you'd like and believe whatever you want.
If 8 is the line, I think the market would say "Brand X used to live above the line, now they generally live below it."
And again, I am not talking legacy, I am talking snapshot-in-time ability. If we're picking the top guy, who then in turn hires the football leaders, I am certainly not picking John Mara.
i agree with that, if i were john mara id have hired someone i trusted with a football background like eli manning, or peyton manning, or tom coughlin, or whoever long ago to support hiring. i dont believe there is a way for a non-football person to know how to hire a football person. every time the HC job has opened up i've campaigned for experienced coaches (like Harbough) and then giving that coach the power to then hire their own GM (as happened in LAC).
by defacto as the giants are set up and have been since GY is that the primary advisor in coaching hires ends up being the GM, but i personally would want someone at a different position than the gm. Joe Schoen never hired a coach before and was never in a player or coach in an NFL lockerroom. Neither had Dave Gettleman. Or Jerry Reese when he chose macadoo. people dont know what they dont know.
coaches get paid like 2x what gms get paid for a reason. they are more important and harder to find.
Quote:
In comment 16557485 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
slight correction Mike, yes championships are by far the most important yardstick in sports by which everyone of consequence is first measured, but when it's clear John's championships were won primarily by the ghost of his father, that needs to be taken into account.
1. You were the one that made the point that it is only the coach that matters.
2. Wellington was in charge when TC was hired. You can try to distribute as much credit away from the actual CEO to his son but there is a big hole there.
3. Why could John supposedly spearhead this great coaching choice as a #2 but as the #1 fail at the task miserably the next 3 times. Isn't it possible John not being in charge of that process created better results?
4. The only good coach picked as a #1 happened when he was publicly shamed and his co-owner had to push him to fire the last embarassment. And that good coach will likely be gone because John would rather overpay an marginal QB talent that he loves.
A man with this resume you want to claim was the force behind hiring our last good coach? Without evidence beyond a take down of an old man?
You posted the stat 22/32 for John Mara's tenure. That is factually closer to the worst than the best. Which just completely destroys your original point.
You are telling people they are cherry picking using 10 years of data as you try to use 12+ year old data.
You are so desperate to give John Mara all the credit for a hire when he was not in charge that you are acting like Wellington Mara, a real legend, couldn't find his way home.
You are like John when he criticized the rest of the offense to try to make DJ look better. Your love for John is blinding you from rational thought.
wellington was 88 years old battling cancer when they hired coughlin. he died 2 years before they hired jerry reese. you can create as many handles as you'd like and believe whatever you want.
You do realize that someone being interviewed by 2 people doesn't mean 1 of them is the decision maker right?
Also you are completely missing my point that John wasn't "the man" as long as Wellington was alive.
I'm not saying Wellington edged out John. I am saying that The longer John was in charge he clearly instituted some bad processes that clearly did not exist when he started.
You acting like John should get the credit as if he was running the show when he wasn't is one of many terrible points you've mad on this thread.
Nice try though!
And then have a President of Football, preferably someone with experience as a player or coach. And have the GM and head coach independently report that person.
The science of scouting is too complicated and demanding now for that discipline to ladder up to a coach. And if the coach is fired you can't risk losing that longer horizon focused group.
I view the GM as the personnel and budget department, whereas the coaching staff is the production department. I'd rather have the production group giving work direction.
And there be a layer of management above them both.
JM failed at recognizing the mistake of Reese that was exposed after just a few years. It was very clear well before 2015 JR had taken control.
Hard to attract highly accomplished HC's without giving them a lot of say in how the team is built and run. Harder to identify a HC without experience.
I will be shocked if Mara does not go for an accomplished HC next time.
That was all John Mara!
The science of scouting is too complicated and demanding now for that discipline to ladder up to a coach. And if the coach is fired you can't risk losing that longer horizon focused group.
In college football, everything reports up to the HC - coaching staff, recruiting/NIL, academics, NCAA advisor, etc. And that's with more players.
As someone who follows high school recruiting closely, it's also very, very difficult to project forward from high school to college.
I know there are differences between the sports, but I think the NFL could operate with a similar model. I'd role the GM under the HC in the NFL, like the Director of Recruiting rolls under the HC in college.
And then have a President of Football, preferably someone with experience as a player or coach. And have the GM and head coach independently report that person.
The science of scouting is too complicated and demanding now for that discipline to ladder up to a coach. And if the coach is fired you can't risk losing that longer horizon focused group.
I view the GM as the personnel and budget department, whereas the coaching staff is the production department. I'd rather have the production group giving work direction.
And there be a layer of management above them both.
an experienced head coach probably doesnt want to report into a head of football. they want to be the head of football. and inexperienced head coach will take any job, but once successful probably wont want that either.
the closest thing that exists to this is depo who is the chief strategy officer in cleveland and was supposedly the guy who pushed for stefanski, who was hired first ahead of the gm and became part of the search for the gm.
both stefanski and the gm report directly into haslem.
trigger alert for anyone who clicks to the link and listens to Depo explaining his role, he uses the word "identity" a lot.
Browns power structure: Revisiting the 2020 hiring process - ( New Window )
but stefanski was a great hire - he has won 2 coach of the years and his win% is .552. will he get over the hump despite the mess w/ watson or fizzle out like vrabel?
wellington was 88 years old battling cancer when they hired coughlin. he died 2 years before they hired jerry reese. you can create as many handles as you'd like and believe whatever you want.
Jerry Reese started with the Giants in 1994. He predates Coughlin by almost a decade.
Quote:
wellington was 88 years old battling cancer when they hired coughlin. he died 2 years before they hired jerry reese. you can create as many handles as you'd like and believe whatever you want.
Jerry Reese started with the Giants in 1994. He predates Coughlin by almost a decade.
if you followed the discussion i've clearly been referencing reese's promotion to GM, which was 2 years after wellington passed. not his initial hiring as a scout.
In comment 16556907 Eric on Li said:
Who cares about the last decade? This man was the driving force behind hiring one of the favorite coachesof his Dad and Boss. He discovered their Super Bowl winning GM. *After he was hired by his Dad and employed for a decade.
Are you sure we should stop at writing of his legend? I feel it would be more appropriate if you gathered a minstrel to sing songs of his heroism