| So, within the context of that situation and the way the contract is structured, and the way last year went, yeah, I think that's a fair assessment that we need better in 2024. |
This is from the press conference today. Not sure if anyone had the chance to watch or read the transcript, but this caught my attention immediately. I don't ever recall Schoen talking about the structure of the Jones contract within these terms.
It's also the first time I'm hearing anyone from the organization call out Jones about needing to be better. This isn't McAdoo calling out Eli, but it's there. It's much more subtle, but the message is there.
The guy is playing, so there’s really no secret here. The injury guarantee only matters if you plan to sit him regardless of health.
And yet...
Trying to draft Maye says hello
I honestly don’t think that’s true. I think they could easily find excuses and ways to bring him back next season. I actually fully expect that.
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Put up or shut up. No excuses.
I honestly don’t think that’s true. I think they could easily find excuses and ways to bring him back next season. I actually fully expect that.
If that's the case they probably made the playoffs again similar to 2022. I don't see finishing 7-10 and bringing him back.
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In comment 16559078 DavidinBMNY said:
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Put up or shut up. No excuses.
I honestly don’t think that’s true. I think they could easily find excuses and ways to bring him back next season. I actually fully expect that.
If that's the case they probably made the playoffs again similar to 2022. I don't see finishing 7-10 and bringing him back.
In that scenario (the Giants finish 7-10), what's the alternative? They'll be picking around #10, I'd guess. So what do they do?
They'll feel the pressure to address QB and I don't see them paying Prescott $60M.
Is it possible they bring back Jones? Yes, definitely. I just get the sense they need him to stay healthy, be productive and win. How does that look going 7-10?
Regardless, I think this will be the last year of DJ unless he plays lights out, stays healthy and make the playoffs.
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Schoen seems to have a funny way of showing it
Trying to draft Maye says hello
Looking forward to hearing that as the losses pile up.
"Hey we tried to trade for Maye. Stop complaining."
The only way Jones gets cut is if he has a disaster of a season and stays healthy.
There’s reason the MGM book has Jones’s o/u for passing TDs at 9.5, a number he’s cleared even during the Judge years. The job is his for now, and I think the team would love for him to succeed, but the leash will be pretty short.
Throwing away years while searching for full bloom love.
We all acknowledge that drafting QBs is hard. No one can argue that. That being the case, does it seem like good policy to struggle under the weight of poor quarterbacking for years (Eli in 2015 was the last time a Giants passer could be considered even close to prolific) while waiting for the QB that's "just right"?
The QB that's "just right" probably has a 50% or better chance of flopping. After all, drafting QBs is really hard even for the smartest teams.
So taking one shot a decade on a 50/50 shot...that's the approach?
"Hey we tried to trade for Maye. Stop complaining."
I don't blame Schoen for how it transpired, but I wouldn't even categorize that as trying. That was more like thinking about it.
Sure the odds are low, but their heads might literally explode. Although they will twist themselves into a million knots trying to explain it away….
Sure the odds are low, but their heads might literally explode. Although they will twist themselves into a million knots trying to explain it away….
No knots necessary. The explanation for having a good year requires nothing short of divine intervention.
He also said, in response to that question: "So, those are conversations way down the road."
How to reconcile these comments?
They're now at a stage where they're evaluating Jones' health and recuperation day by day.
But they're not thinking every day about sitting him because of his injury guarantee. Late in the season, if the Giants are out of it, that's the "way down the road."
Sure the odds are low, but their heads might literally explode. Although they will twist themselves into a million knots trying to explain it away….
Imagine Tomon Fox wins defensive player of the year!
"Hey we tried to trade for Maye. Stop complaining."
This is going to get even more complicated for Schoen if Nix or McCarthy start and play well (I'm assuming Penix will sit for a awhile behind Cousins).
I guess he will be able to fall back and cite that in-depth analysis Daboll did looking at QBs over the last ten years drafted in the first round.
Sure the odds are low, but their heads might literally explode. Although they will twist themselves into a million knots trying to explain it away….
Some might even disappear from the site for several months.
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Schoen seems to have a funny way of showing it
Trying to draft Maye says hello
Joe Schoen’s 24 draft picks and 0 QBs selected says wasssup
To be fair, if Dak Prescott had that specific road playoff game, he would've won too.
Jones is that QB. The Giants viewed JJ, Nix and Penix as just another Jones. Why draft what you already have with the #6 pick when you can get a difference maker WR(or TE or DE)?
Yes, Schoen knows Jones sucked last year and said it, I think, to Chris Mara. I do not expect a miracle to occur. I do not think Jones will be a good QB. Would he have been better off drafting one of JJ, Nix or Penix? Not when you factor in Nabers.
Dak Prescott won a road playoff game in 2022, when he threw 4 TDs in Tampa.
To say nothing of the rest of this nonsense.
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if you don't watch the games but, instead, pour over statistics. If you actually watch the games Jones took a horrible roster, put it on his back and carried it into the playoffs in 2022. Then he won a ROAD PLAYOFF GAME something Dak Prescott has never done, despite his gaudy statistics. I learned a long time ago (Bart Starr taught it to me) that statistics don't mean shit when it comes to QB play.
Dak Prescott won a road playoff game in 2022, when he threw 4 TDs in Tampa.
To say nothing of the rest of this nonsense.
With all that talent around him and continually one of the best Olines in football, Dak did win ONE playoff game against a 8-9 Tampa.
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In comment 16559268 WillieYoung said:
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if you don't watch the games but, instead, pour over statistics. If you actually watch the games Jones took a horrible roster, put it on his back and carried it into the playoffs in 2022. Then he won a ROAD PLAYOFF GAME something Dak Prescott has never done, despite his gaudy statistics. I learned a long time ago (Bart Starr taught it to me) that statistics don't mean shit when it comes to QB play.
Dak Prescott won a road playoff game in 2022, when he threw 4 TDs in Tampa.
To say nothing of the rest of this nonsense.
With all that talent around him and continually one of the best Olines in football, Dak did win ONE playoff game against a 8-9 Tampa.
If one is going to compare Daniel Jones to a QB who is demonstrably better, one could at least be factually accurate in doing so.
Sure the odds are low, but their heads might literally explode. Although they will twist themselves into a million knots trying to explain it away….
I don't think you fully get it. I would love if DJ had a great year in 2024 because the odds are that the Giants would have a good year. Even if that happens, the Giants still need a viable plan B due to the serious injury history. I think the odds of DJ playing another 10 years are remote unless you count some years playing a few games or not at all. Serious neck injuries don't go away.
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But what’s needed is not simply improving the QB situation. The need to get to a guy who represents a long term answer. I think it’s clear they saw three such prospects in the draft but unfortunately we were outside looking in on the three, and didn’t see the others as answers. So you continue to build the team, and keep looking.
Throwing away years while searching for full bloom love.
We all acknowledge that drafting QBs is hard. No one can argue that. That being the case, does it seem like good policy to struggle under the weight of poor quarterbacking for years (Eli in 2015 was the last time a Giants passer could be considered even close to prolific) while waiting for the QB that's "just right"?
The QB that's "just right" probably has a 50% or better chance of flopping. After all, drafting QBs is really hard even for the smartest teams.
So taking one shot a decade on a 50/50 shot...that's the approach?
He did not put them on his back. Saqoun put them on his back the first 8 weeks and when Saqoun started to tail off the Giants went 4-7-1 the rest of the way.
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In comment 16559279 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 16559268 WillieYoung said:
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if you don't watch the games but, instead, pour over statistics. If you actually watch the games Jones took a horrible roster, put it on his back and carried it into the playoffs in 2022. Then he won a ROAD PLAYOFF GAME something Dak Prescott has never done, despite his gaudy statistics. I learned a long time ago (Bart Starr taught it to me) that statistics don't mean shit when it comes to QB play.
Dak Prescott won a road playoff game in 2022, when he threw 4 TDs in Tampa.
To say nothing of the rest of this nonsense.
With all that talent around him and continually one of the best Olines in football, Dak did win ONE playoff game against a 8-9 Tampa.
If one is going to compare Daniel Jones to a QB who is demonstrably better, one could at least be factually accurate in doing so.
What was incorrect that I said?
Dak has been a failure in the playoffs with one of the best rosters in football, year in and year out. He has one win vs a 8-9 Tampa team that was putrid. FWIW, Jones beat a 13-4 team, which did have a bad defense, but clearly superior to Tampa.
Is Dak better than Jones? Yes in regular season play, absolutely. Dak also has had one of the best olines in football and has had tremendous weapons about him.
Would I prefer Dak to Jones? Yes. But I would not expect that great an improvement to the record. Dak is not worth $50 mill per. He is a mid-level QB, so an upgrade to Jones.
He is so afraid to make a mistake he has become the most conservative QB in the league.
He waits for guys to be absolutely wide open rather than throwing guys open or anticipating guys being open.
No excuses this year, he has weapons, OL should be better, Daboll is going to want to push the ball and if Jones doesnt do it, alock is going to be playing before we know it
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In comment 16559285 section125 said:
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In comment 16559279 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 16559268 WillieYoung said:
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if you don't watch the games but, instead, pour over statistics. If you actually watch the games Jones took a horrible roster, put it on his back and carried it into the playoffs in 2022. Then he won a ROAD PLAYOFF GAME something Dak Prescott has never done, despite his gaudy statistics. I learned a long time ago (Bart Starr taught it to me) that statistics don't mean shit when it comes to QB play.
Dak Prescott won a road playoff game in 2022, when he threw 4 TDs in Tampa.
To say nothing of the rest of this nonsense.
With all that talent around him and continually one of the best Olines in football, Dak did win ONE playoff game against a 8-9 Tampa.
If one is going to compare Daniel Jones to a QB who is demonstrably better, one could at least be factually accurate in doing so.
What was incorrect that I said?
Dak has been a failure in the playoffs with one of the best rosters in football, year in and year out. He has one win vs a 8-9 Tampa team that was putrid. FWIW, Jones beat a 13-4 team, which did have a bad defense, but clearly superior to Tampa.
Is Dak better than Jones? Yes in regular season play, absolutely. Dak also has had one of the best olines in football and has had tremendous weapons about him.
Would I prefer Dak to Jones? Yes. But I would not expect that great an improvement to the record. Dak is not worth $50 mill per. He is a mid-level QB, so an upgrade to Jones.
Maybe scroll up to the comment I initially replied to in which it was proudly stated that Daniel Jones has won a road playoff game and Dak Prescott has not.
Roger Staubach had to compete for the starting job. Terry Bradshaw had to fend off competitors; Joe Montana had to win the starting job. Daniel Jones? Anointed from the start, no competition and every excuse in the book tendered since. Never seen anything like it.
Roger Staubach had to compete for the starting job. Terry Bradshaw had to fend off competitors; Joe Montana had to win the starting job. Daniel Jones? Anointed from the start, no competition and every excuse in the book tendered since. Never seen anything like it.
I was surprised they didn’t pick Michael Pratt, the QB out of Tulane, this year when he slid to the 7th round. He looks like DJ — but for a 6th round pick? Sure. Anytime.
What was incorrect that I said?
Dak has been a failure in the playoffs with one of the best rosters in football, year in and year out. He has one win vs a 8-9 Tampa team that was putrid. FWIW, Jones beat a 13-4 team, which did have a bad defense, but clearly superior to Tampa.
Is Dak better than Jones? Yes in regular season play, absolutely. Dak also has had one of the best olines in football and has had tremendous weapons about him.
Would I prefer Dak to Jones? Yes. But I would not expect that great an improvement to the record. Dak is not worth $50 mill per. He is a mid-level QB, so an upgrade to Jones.
Maybe scroll up to the comment I initially replied to in which it was proudly stated that Daniel Jones has won a road playoff game and Dak Prescott has not.
Does not answer what I asked. Since I stated that Dak did beat an awful Tampa, that part was acknowledged.
This belief that Dak is some amazing QB is just not true. IMV, he is marginally better than Jones. Take him off Dallas, and see how well he would do. His propensity to throw INTs under pressure is well documented.
For the record, I am not saying Jones is better. I am just saying Dak is a good in season QB mainly because of where he is. Put against playoff teams - meh.
There’s reason the MGM book has Jones’s o/u for passing TDs at 9.5, a number he’s cleared even during the Judge years. The job is his for now, and I think the team would love for him to succeed, but the leash will be pretty short.
I have to think that the TD O/U is based on Jones’s injury history. I don’t know how bad a healthy Jones would have to be for them to move on to Lock.
I think Schoen, reasonably and rightly, wants the best QB he can get for the Giants at a price he can afford (not just cap but other resources to get). In 2023 that was DJ. In 2024 that is DJ. In 2025 it will not be DJ unless he performs at least as well as 2022 and there are no other options.
Roger Staubach had to compete for the starting job. Terry Bradshaw had to fend off competitors; Joe Montana had to win the starting job. Daniel Jones? Anointed from the start, no competition and every excuse in the book tendered since. Never seen anything like it.
This ^
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In comment 16559099 HardTruth said:
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Schoen seems to have a funny way of showing it
Trying to draft Maye says hello
Joe Schoen’s 24 draft picks and 0 QBs selected says wasssup
And who would have have drafted?
Kenny Pickett?
Or….drafted a QB the same year they signed him to extension?
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But the 2023 contract negotiations were uncomfortable and if you read between the lines of the coverage that came out around that time, Schoen seemed frustrated a little bit at the demands of Jones’s camp. Then Jones comes out and embarrasses Schoen in 2023 and hurts his reputation.
There’s reason the MGM book has Jones’s o/u for passing TDs at 9.5, a number he’s cleared even during the Judge years. The job is his for now, and I think the team would love for him to succeed, but the leash will be pretty short.
I have to think that the TD O/U is based on Jones’s injury history. I don’t know how bad a healthy Jones would have to be for them to move on to Lock.
Even when he’s been injured - outside of 2023 - he’s still cleared 9.5 TDs in every season. This is an easy over bet if you assume he’d miss his average number of 3-5 games. To me this number indicates that benching risk is pretty baked in.
I agree that Locks sucks but I’d be willing to wager they’d just go to Devito. If the season is going so bad that both Jones and Lock played themselves out of a starting position, things will be so cooked that I doubt putting Jones back in would be on the table.
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doesn't need to be a first round pick. They drafted none since Jones. Given Jones' play the last 5 years, that is extraordinary. Even this season, he is paid as the unchallenged starter and is the unchallenged starter.
Roger Staubach had to compete for the starting job. Terry Bradshaw had to fend off competitors; Joe Montana had to win the starting job. Daniel Jones? Anointed from the start, no competition and every excuse in the book tendered since. Never seen anything like it.
This ^
I agree, if they didn't have holes at every single position on the field. A 4th or 5th round OG/DT/LB has a decent chance to make a team and play. A 4th or 5th round QB does not.
Once the team is pretty well set, I can see grabbing a QB. But at this point, there are too many holes to pass over a possible contributing player.
It was possible to do so this offseason, and they didn't.
It is, but they aren't doing anything about it! They should have moved heaven and earth to convince Russell Wilson to come here, drafted a Pratt or Milton in the sixth round and then cut DJ after June 1st. Wilson being available at vet minimum was like manna from heaven - and all it would have taken I believe was convincing him that he would be the starter for this team for 2024! No doubt in my mind that his brand would be infinitely more valuable here in NYC under a proven offensive guru like Brian Daboll than in Pittsburgh under a journeyman coach like Arthur Smith. And we would then be talking this morning about a legitimate playoff contending season instead of one that ends again before Halloween.
But they are still in the realm of denial with DJ. Very sad times for this once great franchise.
Its clear they had QBs they liked. Its also clear NE liked and needed a QB a great deal. I would feel not great if they had to trade this years 1+2, and next year's 1+2, plus more.
Surely if youre sober-minded you can agree that the opportuity wasnt great. Things did not break their way.
I agree that Locks sucks but I’d be willing to wager they’d just go to Devito. If the season is going so bad that both Jones and Lock played themselves out of a starting position, things will be so cooked that I doubt putting Jones back in would be on the table.
If things really fall apart I agree DeVito should be given the chance.
Its clear they had QBs they liked. Its also clear NE liked and needed a QB a great deal. I would feel not great if they had to trade this years 1+2, and next year's 1+2, plus more.
Surely if youre sober-minded you can agree that the opportuity wasnt great. Things did not break their way.
Yes, if they're laser focused on a prospect that's just out of reach and isn't that much better, if at all, than the prospects they could draft without a trade.
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if you don't watch the games but, instead, pour over statistics. If you actually watch the games Jones took a horrible roster, put it on his back and carried it into the playoffs in 2022. Then he won a ROAD PLAYOFF GAME something Dak Prescott has never done, despite his gaudy statistics. I learned a long time ago (Bart Starr taught it to me) that statistics don't mean shit when it comes to QB play.
He did not put them on his back. Saqoun put them on his back the first 8 weeks and when Saqoun started to tail off the Giants went 4-7-1 the rest of the way.
They didn't use a pass heavy offense with Kadarius Toney, Marcus Johnson, Richie James and David Stills? Remember Sterling Shepard started the season getting reps and got hurt. Slayton barely played; he had 18 snaps TOTAL in the first three games combined. Inactive Week 1. Week 1 snaps mostly were Golladay, Shep and James. Sills mixed in there, too. This was the WR group primarily the first three games. Fourth is when Slayton got some serious reps and they sat Kenny G.
This isn't complicated.
They won against Houston that year by passing, not running. Barkley had 35 rushes against Houston but their scoring drives were when they passed the ball. Jones had over 300 plus yards and scores against Jax. They only had 238 offensive yards against Baltimore and won, mainly due to taking advantage of Lamar Jackson turning it over twice in the final moments of the game. They beat Green Bay, which was their other notable game and Barkley had 13 runs while Jones passed 27 times. Scored 27 points and won. Marcus Johnson was the second leading receiver that day for the Giants.
Second half of year, losses to Dallas (again), Philly, Seattle (Richie James 2x fumble game) and Detroit (whole team got beat). And you are counting the last game started by Davis Webb as a loss to Jones for whatever reason.
Sure the odds are low, but their heads might literally explode. Although they will twist themselves into a million knots trying to explain it away….
4000 yards/27-30 TDs/15 ints/8.0 Y/A.
I would take that along with a competitive season.
Long shot IMO.
Barkley carried the team in 2022, not Jones. The whole league knows this, and that’s why everyone was amazed that John got the long-term deal and not Barkley.
The only way Jones gets cut is if he has a disaster of a season and stays healthy.
I guess I'm blind.
Because if they were really finished with Team Jones, like Payton was with Wilson in Denver, we would have done something about it already.
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is patently obvious that Schoen and Daboll want to replace Jones as quickly as possible.
It was possible to do so this offseason, and they didn't.
Cutting him before June 1 would have meant a whopping $69M cap hit. That isn't realistic. That number drops to $22M after this season, which would still be the largest dead cap hit ever for the Giants.
Go watch the Nabers tape. Think about what Saban told Daboll. Now remember Eli the year before OBJ and the year after.
When slants and crosses start going to the house.
This is why Saban said Nabers was a problem. Problems change the way you play a team. We drafted the right guy. Jones is going to look good.
Welcome to the new world.
EVERYTHING CHANGES.
If we protect Jones for 2.5 seconds and Nabers looks like he did in the SEC he is going to put up stats. The system they are running works, it is complicated and depends on playmakers. Is Tua great? We didn’t have the playmakers. Watch
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I'll say this until I'm blue in the keyboard -- the contract makes Jones cheaper and easy to keep in 2025.
The only way Jones gets cut is if he has a disaster of a season and stays healthy.
Agree 100%
Also agree. Jones could easily be the Giants starting QB in 2025. And that's true even if the Giants draft a QB in the first or second round.
Its clear they had QBs they liked. Its also clear NE liked and needed a QB a great deal. I would feel not great if they had to trade this years 1+2, and next year's 1+2, plus more.
Surely if youre sober-minded you can agree that the opportuity wasnt great. Things did not break their way.
Right now it looks like Schoen walked away without a BAFO.
Because that last call Scoen had with Wolf in E4 was about as milquetoast as it gets for a negotiation. To me, it looked like Schoen checked his box, told his owners he tried, and happily found Jones a weapon at #6.
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In comment 16559172 christian said:
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I'll say this until I'm blue in the keyboard -- the contract makes Jones cheaper and easy to keep in 2025.
The only way Jones gets cut is if he has a disaster of a season and stays healthy.
Agree 100%
Also agree. Jones could easily be the Giants starting QB in 2025. And that's true even if the Giants draft a QB in the first or second round.
Jones was going to be on the roster this year even if we drafted Maye. We were stuck with his salary this year so at minimum he would be here as a backup... but we were NOT moving on from him this season. Plus, even as a backup he knows the Daboll system.. so dont be stupid.
Once he was signed to the contract a year ago, he was going to be on the roster for two seasons.
Step away from the forum for a while. Go walk the dog and if you dont have a dog, then walk the neighbor's dog. Get a hobby or anything that can take your mind away from Daniel Jones.
But once the rumors of Lock having a chance to start were publicly shot down, it was clear there was no intent to challenge young Daniel.
Barkley was the better and more valuable player that year for the Giants and its not close. It's funny how that aspect always get left out of the argument that Jones "has no weapons"...
Jones was going to be on the roster this year even if we drafted Maye. We were stuck with his salary this year so at minimum he would be here as a backup... but we were NOT moving on from him this season. Plus, even as a backup he knows the Daboll system.. so dont be stupid.
Once he was signed to the contract a year ago, he was going to be on the roster for two seasons.
Step away from the forum for a while. Go walk the dog and if you dont have a dog, then walk the neighbor's dog. Get a hobby or anything that can take your mind away from Daniel Jones.
Come on, even his biggest critics acknowledge that Jones’s will be on the roster this year, and probably next. It’s him being handed the starting job no matter how poorly he plays that is the problem.
Sure the odds are low, but their heads might literally explode. Although they will twist themselves into a million knots trying to explain it away….
f
Shouldn't a good year be the expectation of 6th year QB making 20% of your salary cap?
The fact that its a pie in the sky scenario is the problem with Jones. You should be hoping for a "great year" and fully expecting a "good year".
But they haven't taken another QB anywhere in three drafts. So what happens next spring if they go 7-10 and Jones has another lousy season? Do they draft QB3 in a weaker 2025 draft? That would be drafting a QB to draft a QB, wouldn't it...the very thing they aren't supposed to do.
If they didn't "pick a QB to pick a QB" in 2024, why are they going to do it in 2025? Jones will still be under contract.
Most roads - not all, but most - point to Jones being the opening day starter in 2025. That will be year 7.
It would take a freakin' miracle of a season for me to change my mind at this point.
It would take a freakin' miracle of a season for me to change my mind at this point.
Look at it from their perspective though. What's the alternative?
1. Pay a Darnold type to start for a year? Might as well just stick with Jones.
2. Pay Dak (if available) $60M and eat Jones's money? Seems unlikely.
3. Force the QB pick in a a weak QB draft? They're not supposed to do that. And even if they do, why get rid of Jones?
Jones's 2024 is almost certainly going to look better than his 2023, and he'll be cheaper. Why get rid of him?
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It didn't work out, and since they have not exactly hid their willingness to take another. They've said it, and their actions have shown it.
But they haven't taken another QB anywhere in three drafts. So what happens next spring if they go 7-10 and Jones has another lousy season? Do they draft QB3 in a weaker 2025 draft? That would be drafting a QB to draft a QB, wouldn't it...the very thing they aren't supposed to do.
If they didn't "pick a QB to pick a QB" in 2024, why are they going to do it in 2025? Jones will still be under contract.
Most roads - not all, but most - point to Jones being the opening day starter in 2025. That will be year 7.
Who says that the QB available when the Giants pick will be weaker than JJM, Penix, Nix?
If you keep 'em, even if he's cheaper, you're now making a two year financial commitment whether you cast him aside after 2025 or not b/c your gotta eat the 11 mil dead cap hit the following year b/c you certainly can't pay him what he's projected to make in 2026.
1.) If you take the hit on DJ's contract this year - can't pay a Sam Darnold the next
2.) You also can't afford a Dak
3.) I get the force a QB pick b/c it's a weak QB class - but a lot can happen on that front in one year...there's plenty of examples of that (ie #1 Joe Burrow) The NYG will almost be forced to go QB which might be what it takes to get the NYG to move off DJ...like until he retires - ugh.
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In comment 16559293 UberAlias said:
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It didn't work out, and since they have not exactly hid their willingness to take another. They've said it, and their actions have shown it.
But they haven't taken another QB anywhere in three drafts. So what happens next spring if they go 7-10 and Jones has another lousy season? Do they draft QB3 in a weaker 2025 draft? That would be drafting a QB to draft a QB, wouldn't it...the very thing they aren't supposed to do.
If they didn't "pick a QB to pick a QB" in 2024, why are they going to do it in 2025? Jones will still be under contract.
Most roads - not all, but most - point to Jones being the opening day starter in 2025. That will be year 7.
Who says that the QB available when the Giants pick will be weaker than JJM, Penix, Nix?
Sy did, for one. And if you look around you'll find plenty of articles similar to the one linked below. And bear in mind the Giants are unlikely to be picking in the top 3.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 16559575 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16559293 UberAlias said:
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It didn't work out, and since they have not exactly hid their willingness to take another. They've said it, and their actions have shown it.
But they haven't taken another QB anywhere in three drafts. So what happens next spring if they go 7-10 and Jones has another lousy season? Do they draft QB3 in a weaker 2025 draft? That would be drafting a QB to draft a QB, wouldn't it...the very thing they aren't supposed to do.
If they didn't "pick a QB to pick a QB" in 2024, why are they going to do it in 2025? Jones will still be under contract.
Most roads - not all, but most - point to Jones being the opening day starter in 2025. That will be year 7.
Who says that the QB available when the Giants pick will be weaker than JJM, Penix, Nix?
Sy did, for one. And if you look around you'll find plenty of articles similar to the one linked below. And bear in mind the Giants are unlikely to be picking in the top 3. Link - ( New Window )
While QB1 and QB2 appear lower than what you had in the 2024 crop, looking at who is on the watch list the QB3-QB6 could actually be stronger (or at the very least not worse) than 2024. Granted there are a number of names on the 2025 list where you are saying that with the assumption of development in their draft year based on the flashes to date. If they don't take the next step suddenly the class does become quite shallow.
They didn't use a pass heavy offense with Kadarius Toney, Marcus Johnson, Richie James and David Stills? Remember Sterling Shepard started the season getting reps and got hurt. Slayton barely played; he had 18 snaps TOTAL in the first three games combined. Inactive Week 1. Week 1 snaps mostly were Golladay, Shep and James. Sills mixed in there, too. This was the WR group primarily the first three games. Fourth is when Slayton got some serious reps and they sat Kenny G.
This isn't complicated.
They won against Houston that year by passing, not running. Barkley had 35 rushes against Houston but their scoring drives were when they passed the ball. Jones had over 300 plus yards and scores against Jax. They only had 238 offensive yards against Baltimore and won, mainly due to taking advantage of Lamar Jackson turning it over twice in the final moments of the game. They beat Green Bay, which was their other notable game and Barkley had 13 runs while Jones passed 27 times. Scored 27 points and won. Marcus Johnson was the second leading receiver that day for the Giants.
Second half of year, losses to Dallas (again), Philly, Seattle (Richie James 2x fumble game) and Detroit (whole team got beat). And you are counting the last game started by Davis Webb as a loss to Jones for whatever reason.
So how did Jones put them on his back if they didn’t use a heavy pass offense? Let’s go week by week of the wins.
Week 1: 238 rushing yards, 164 by Barkley. Jones almost lost them the game with a redzone pick that was overturned.
Week 2: The defense keeps them in the game while the Giants manage 6 points in the first half and score one TD.
Week 4: Jones had two rushing touchdowns but the Giants leaned heavily on Barkley with 31 Carrie’s for 146 yards.
Week 5: an efficient but unspectacular game from Jones, but he was their best player on offense that day.
Week 6: the defense put the Giants on their back in the 4th quarter
Week 7: Jones 11 carries for 107 and a score carried the Giants we can agree there.
Week 10: there’s no spin to this one, Saqoun and the running game carried the Giants
Saqoun falls off they don’t win again until week 15, another sub 200 yard passing game. Saqoun and the defense carried the Giants.
The Lions loss Jones was one of the main culprits. He gave the Lions the ball twice, once on the Giants 13 in a game they lost by two tds. Sure Richie James fumbled twice against Seattle but Jones didn’t do much either.
Jones was fine enough in 2022, but the idea he “put them on his back” is the fakest narrative written on this site. The Giants were probably a 4 win team without Saqoun and the defense playing above their heads.
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In comment 16559600 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16559575 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16559293 UberAlias said:
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It didn't work out, and since they have not exactly hid their willingness to take another. They've said it, and their actions have shown it.
But they haven't taken another QB anywhere in three drafts. So what happens next spring if they go 7-10 and Jones has another lousy season? Do they draft QB3 in a weaker 2025 draft? That would be drafting a QB to draft a QB, wouldn't it...the very thing they aren't supposed to do.
If they didn't "pick a QB to pick a QB" in 2024, why are they going to do it in 2025? Jones will still be under contract.
Most roads - not all, but most - point to Jones being the opening day starter in 2025. That will be year 7.
Who says that the QB available when the Giants pick will be weaker than JJM, Penix, Nix?
Sy did, for one. And if you look around you'll find plenty of articles similar to the one linked below. And bear in mind the Giants are unlikely to be picking in the top 3. Link - ( New Window )
While QB1 and QB2 appear lower than what you had in the 2024 crop, looking at who is on the watch list the QB3-QB6 could actually be stronger (or at the very least not worse) than 2024. Granted there are a number of names on the 2025 list where you are saying that with the assumption of development in their draft year based on the flashes to date. If they don't take the next step suddenly the class does become quite shallow.
Obviously there is a lot of college football to be played. Hopefully the QB class explodes.
But it struck me when Sy said that right now none of the 2025 class would be top 6 in the 2024 class, and that the 2025 class looks just as strong at WR.
Unfortunately, I don't feel as optimistic as you on this one.
Rare I would agree with ajr, but I think SB was the big key offensively during the 7-2 start. The run game did fall off significantly the back end of the season at the RB spot. Jones was good and AT was great.
In the Detroit and Seattle games, SB had low carries and below 2.5 ypc. That makes it tough on the QB. Consistent theme for Jones and the Giants the past 2 seasons. In the three games SB was out last season Giants RB's averaged 16c/38y/2.3. Terrible OL and subpar skill group is tough sledding.
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In comment 16559603 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16559600 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16559575 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16559293 UberAlias said:
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It didn't work out, and since they have not exactly hid their willingness to take another. They've said it, and their actions have shown it.
But they haven't taken another QB anywhere in three drafts. So what happens next spring if they go 7-10 and Jones has another lousy season? Do they draft QB3 in a weaker 2025 draft? That would be drafting a QB to draft a QB, wouldn't it...the very thing they aren't supposed to do.
If they didn't "pick a QB to pick a QB" in 2024, why are they going to do it in 2025? Jones will still be under contract.
Most roads - not all, but most - point to Jones being the opening day starter in 2025. That will be year 7.
Who says that the QB available when the Giants pick will be weaker than JJM, Penix, Nix?
Sy did, for one. And if you look around you'll find plenty of articles similar to the one linked below. And bear in mind the Giants are unlikely to be picking in the top 3. Link - ( New Window )
While QB1 and QB2 appear lower than what you had in the 2024 crop, looking at who is on the watch list the QB3-QB6 could actually be stronger (or at the very least not worse) than 2024. Granted there are a number of names on the 2025 list where you are saying that with the assumption of development in their draft year based on the flashes to date. If they don't take the next step suddenly the class does become quite shallow.
Obviously there is a lot of college football to be played. Hopefully the QB class explodes.
But it struck me when Sy said that right now none of the 2025 class would be top 6 in the 2024 class, and that the 2025 class looks just as strong at WR.
I think you are underestimating that WR is a position that is easier to have success early, both at collegiate and NFL level. Outside of Caleb Williams and Drake Maye, none of the other 4 QB's in Round 1 of 2024 Draft were at that level in April 2023. While none of us have access to the scouting reports the Giants had of JJM, Penix, and Nix, each of them had enough questions where it was reasonable to have them in a tier that was significantly below where Nabers was slotted. I don't think you get out of Daniel Jones disaster by drafting another Daniel Jones.
Week 2: The defense keeps them in the game while the Giants manage 6 points in the first half and score one TD.
Basically a gift 6 points off CAR turnovers. Drives started at the CAR 22 and CAR 40.
None of those three are unrecruited, unproductive QBs from Duke. Just because Jones sucks doesn't mean the next QB we draft will. To be fair the next QB we draft might not even be born yet so who knows.
As for receivers, I think it's pretty easy to find receivers all over the draft. I wouldn't have drafted Nabers over any of the QBs or Alt.
I've resigned myself to him being here. It's one reason I've posted less and less since the draft, interest is waned.
I've resigned myself to him being here. It's one reason I've posted less and less since the draft, interest is waned.
I think that would be 14.7 on Kenny G...right?
I've resigned myself to him being here. It's one reason I've posted less and less since the draft, interest is waned.
I think there's a decent chance he's plays out the entire contract, it is restructured. The one caveat could be if they have a shot at Arch Manning. That would be full bloom love.
Without receiving trade comp, I believe the most is the 14.7M in dead money from cutting Golladay.
Your first point should not be underestimated. As of April Jones was recovering well from his ACL tear and ontrack to be ready for camp.
Anyone who doesn't think part of Schoen's calculation was about his own credibility, when Mara still owed Jones 36M in new cash, is naive.
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I think it's clear their plan is for him to be here at least through 2024, and quite possibly 2025. To reverse on that decision is a tough one to answer to ownership for, especially when they love the player in question. What's the most $ the Giants have ever eaten on a contract? And, how quickly did it occur from signing.
I've resigned myself to him being here. It's one reason I've posted less and less since the draft, interest is waned.
I think there's a decent chance he's plays out the entire contract, it is restructured. The one caveat could be if they have a shot at Arch Manning. That would be full bloom love.
Your QB evaluation skills are amazing being that Arch Manning played a total of 1 series last year
Kudos 😂😂😂😂
I've resigned myself to him being here. It's one reason I've posted less and less since the draft, interest is waned.
I think there's a decent chance he's plays out the entire contract, it is restructured. The one caveat could be if they have a shot at Arch Manning. That would be full bloom love.
The timing is perfect. Arch declares after the 2025 season and Mara gets his storybook transition.
This^. “We can’t afford to gamble a 5th round pick on a QB because we may miss out on that 5th round LB with 0.02% chance of playing meaningful snaps.”
The Giants do not build competition at the QB position. They annoint someone and then dance around him with kid gloves when he underperforms.
How about telling Jones - “yeah we are in the market for a QB until you take us out of it.”
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To have a walk away price for a trade up.
Its clear they had QBs they liked. Its also clear NE liked and needed a QB a great deal. I would feel not great if they had to trade this years 1+2, and next year's 1+2, plus more.
Surely if youre sober-minded you can agree that the opportuity wasnt great. Things did not break their way.
Right now it looks like Schoen walked away without a BAFO.
Because that last call Scoen had with Wolf in E4 was about as milquetoast as it gets for a negotiation. To me, it looked like Schoen checked his box, told his owners he tried, and happily found Jones a weapon at #6.
That’s an accurate description of what we saw on camera. “You want to give me without me breaking the bank? No. Ok, well I tried.” That was the definition of a perfunctory call.
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In comment 16559388 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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To have a walk away price for a trade up.
Its clear they had QBs they liked. Its also clear NE liked and needed a QB a great deal. I would feel not great if they had to trade this years 1+2, and next year's 1+2, plus more.
Surely if youre sober-minded you can agree that the opportuity wasnt great. Things did not break their way.
Right now it looks like Schoen walked away without a BAFO.
Because that last call Scoen had with Wolf in E4 was about as milquetoast as it gets for a negotiation. To me, it looked like Schoen checked his box, told his owners he tried, and happily found Jones a weapon at #6.
That’s an accurate description of what we saw on camera. “You want to give me without me breaking the bank? No. Ok, well I tried.” That was the definition of a perfunctory call.
You see and hear what you want.
However, I believe when he talked to John Mara, he says he had talked to Wolf earlier and Wolf said they were staying. It was a "check in" call, a last minute check to see if perhaps NE had second thoughts about a trade. I think they had already talked about 6, 47, 5th rnd plus next years 1 and 2. That was what John had palpitations over - that amount of capital being traded.
Yes, Schoen had already resigned to the fact that the trade was over unless they went Rickey Williams...
I've resigned myself to him being here. It's one reason I've posted less and less since the draft, interest is waned.
I wish John Mara could read that last line. The Giants are uninteresting with Jones at QB. There is a reason the stadium is half empty or filled with rival fans the last 6 weeks of the season. They have built a team that is difficult to be excited about.
I used to be pumped up every Sunday because there was a Giants game. Now I watch out of obligation/curiosity because I have just done it my whole life.
One thing that comes through in Hard Knocks is that John Mara is completely fucking lost. He's the personification of this meme:
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In comment 16559451 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16559388 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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To have a walk away price for a trade up.
Its clear they had QBs they liked. Its also clear NE liked and needed a QB a great deal. I would feel not great if they had to trade this years 1+2, and next year's 1+2, plus more.
Surely if youre sober-minded you can agree that the opportuity wasnt great. Things did not break their way.
Right now it looks like Schoen walked away without a BAFO.
Because that last call Scoen had with Wolf in E4 was about as milquetoast as it gets for a negotiation. To me, it looked like Schoen checked his box, told his owners he tried, and happily found Jones a weapon at #6.
That’s an accurate description of what we saw on camera. “You want to give me without me breaking the bank? No. Ok, well I tried.” That was the definition of a perfunctory call.
You see and hear what you want.
However, I believe when he talked to John Mara, he says he had talked to Wolf earlier and Wolf said they were staying. It was a "check in" call, a last minute check to see if perhaps NE had second thoughts about a trade. I think they had already talked about 6, 47, 5th rnd plus next years 1 and 2. That was what John had palpitations over - that amount of capital being traded.
Yes, Schoen had already resigned to the fact that the trade was over unless they went Rickey Williams...
That isn’t accurate. We all saw and heard a perfunctory check in call. Maybe the Patriots were never moving out of that pick, but is there any evidence that Schoen really went after it, or he just put in a call, saw the price was too high, and decided to get a receiver instead?
The Giants were interested in getting Maye if they could get him much cheaper than what it would have cost to trade up, so they stayed with Jones. They did not make a substantial effort to move on from Jones.
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I think it's clear their plan is for him to be here at least through 2024, and quite possibly 2025. To reverse on that decision is a tough one to answer to ownership for, especially when they love the player in question. What's the most $ the Giants have ever eaten on a contract? And, how quickly did it occur from signing.
I've resigned myself to him being here. It's one reason I've posted less and less since the draft, interest is waned.
I wish John Mara could read that last line. The Giants are uninteresting with Jones at QB. There is a reason the stadium is half empty or filled with rival fans the last 6 weeks of the season. They have built a team that is difficult to be excited about.
I used to be pumped up every Sunday because there was a Giants game. Now I watch out of obligation/curiosity because I have just done it my whole life.
Yep. They do nothing well, no identity to hang their hat on, unfun to watch, some young bucks are promising but we know historically it's a 50/50 hit rate in the first round, etc. They've been so bad for so long half the fanbase has no idea what promising or good actually looks like.
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What was incorrect that I said?
Dak has been a failure in the playoffs with one of the best rosters in football, year in and year out. He has one win vs a 8-9 Tampa team that was putrid. FWIW, Jones beat a 13-4 team, which did have a bad defense, but clearly superior to Tampa.
Is Dak better than Jones? Yes in regular season play, absolutely. Dak also has had one of the best olines in football and has had tremendous weapons about him.
Would I prefer Dak to Jones? Yes. But I would not expect that great an improvement to the record. Dak is not worth $50 mill per. He is a mid-level QB, so an upgrade to Jones.
Maybe scroll up to the comment I initially replied to in which it was proudly stated that Daniel Jones has won a road playoff game and Dak Prescott has not.
Does not answer what I asked. Since I stated that Dak did beat an awful Tampa, that part was acknowledged.
This belief that Dak is some amazing QB is just not true. IMV, he is marginally better than Jones. Take him off Dallas, and see how well he would do. His propensity to throw INTs under pressure is well documented.
For the record, I am not saying Jones is better. I am just saying Dak is a good in season QB mainly because of where he is. Put against playoff teams - meh.
Didn't the Cowboys win only 5 games when Dak missed a season. The Cowboys without Dak are the Giants.
Right, bw, because you've been in Schoen's seat so often, you would have told Wolfe where to get off, is that what you're saying?
From what snippets we heard, it sounded very similar to the 'cordial' back and forth Schoen had with Dan Morgan (?) in the BB negotiation, gentlemanly, respectful. You don't get that Wolfe had all the leverage in that discussion, all of it and that he and Schoen wanted the same player? Now, you'll argue like Terps that JS should have mortgaged the future in a Ricky Williams deal and given up multiple '25s, but there was clearly no appetite for that in the building. Schoen said he'd have to go back to John.
I don't think Schoen ever 'wanted' Jones. 2023 negotiations were a clusterfuck. The Giants 'were back', there was relief and outpouring and Mara was the 3rd party at the table in each of the SB and DJ negotiations. To me it was clear that SB's negotiation team (he changed agents midstream, yes?) rankled Schoen and that failed negotiation (leading to Barkley's tag) left Schoen with no option when it came to Jones. The mistake he made, a rookie mistake, a big one, was not meeting SB's demands and tagging Jones. (Mara wanted them both. Only after the '23 debacle does it appear that Mara has really retreated to the woodshed.) Will we ever get the skinny on how those two deals went down and why Schoen didn't just give in to the cheaper (fewer $$), more expensive deal and give the RB most of what he wanted?
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In comment 16559302 rsjem1979 said:
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What was incorrect that I said?
Dak has been a failure in the playoffs with one of the best rosters in football, year in and year out. He has one win vs a 8-9 Tampa team that was putrid. FWIW, Jones beat a 13-4 team, which did have a bad defense, but clearly superior to Tampa.
Is Dak better than Jones? Yes in regular season play, absolutely. Dak also has had one of the best olines in football and has had tremendous weapons about him.
Would I prefer Dak to Jones? Yes. But I would not expect that great an improvement to the record. Dak is not worth $50 mill per. He is a mid-level QB, so an upgrade to Jones.
Maybe scroll up to the comment I initially replied to in which it was proudly stated that Daniel Jones has won a road playoff game and Dak Prescott has not.
Does not answer what I asked. Since I stated that Dak did beat an awful Tampa, that part was acknowledged.
This belief that Dak is some amazing QB is just not true. IMV, he is marginally better than Jones. Take him off Dallas, and see how well he would do. His propensity to throw INTs under pressure is well documented.
For the record, I am not saying Jones is better. I am just saying Dak is a good in season QB mainly because of where he is. Put against playoff teams - meh.
Didn't the Cowboys win only 5 games when Dak missed a season. The Cowboys without Dak are the Giants.
This is fact.
People hate Dak...but he's not much different than Lamar Jackson
He's just not as much fun to watch.
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...Because that last call Scoen had with Wolf in E4 was about as milquetoast as it gets for a negotiation. To me, it looked like Schoen checked his box, told his owners he tried, and happily found Jones a weapon at #6.
Right, bw, because you've been in Schoen's seat so often, you would have told Wolfe where to get off, is that what you're saying?
From what snippets we heard, it sounded very similar to the 'cordial' back and forth Schoen had with Dan Morgan (?) in the BB negotiation, gentlemanly, respectful. You don't get that Wolfe had all the leverage in that discussion, all of it and that he and Schoen wanted the same player? Now, you'll argue like Terps that JS should have mortgaged the future in a Ricky Williams deal and given up multiple '25s, but there was clearly no appetite for that in the building. Schoen said he'd have to go back to John.
I don't think Schoen ever 'wanted' Jones. 2023 negotiations were a clusterfuck. The Giants 'were back', there was relief and outpouring and Mara was the 3rd party at the table in each of the SB and DJ negotiations. To me it was clear that SB's negotiation team (he changed agents midstream, yes?) rankled Schoen and that failed negotiation (leading to Barkley's tag) left Schoen with no option when it came to Jones. The mistake he made, a rookie mistake, a big one, was not meeting SB's demands and tagging Jones. (Mara wanted them both. Only after the '23 debacle does it appear that Mara has really retreated to the woodshed.) Will we ever get the skinny on how those two deals went down and why Schoen didn't just give in to the cheaper (fewer $$), more expensive deal and give the RB most of what he wanted?
I don't need to be an NFL GM to know what a real offer sounds like. I have negotiated scores of deals in my field. And in that conversation with Wolf before the draft, Schoen danced around the edges, and never offered a clear, well-thought deal for Wolf to consider.
Could there have been another call where he did that? Sure. But in the sequence of events that were shown in E4, four hours before the draft, it sure sounded like Schoen decided he was at a dead-end with Wolf and it was time to get a weapon for Jones. Just re-watch his meeting with Tisch, Mara and Daboll. Did Schoen remotely sound like he was ready to re-engage with Wolf? I say NFW.
As for your remarks about the 2023 off-season, I agree Schoen got it backwards with Barkley and Jones. But I do not believe Jones was foisted on him by Mara, and he had no choice but to keep him. There is too much content out there before free agency began in March of 2023 where Schoen sounded genuinely interested in retaining Jones.
I really don't know why people can't accept the possibility Schoen actually liked Jones just as much as Mara. And why do we assume Schoen is good at this GM thing? It's his maiden voyage as a GM with no prior GM experience to evaluate.
Yes, Schoen had already resigned to the fact that the trade was over unless they went Rickey Williams...
That line by Schoen was a combination of dumb and throwing in the towel. The Ditka offer for Ricky Williams was the outlier of outliers.
So, because Schoen never offered Wolf a real deal to consider, he has no idea where the negotiations could have gone. He just assumed the worst outcome. Frankly, it showed a sign of Schoen that was very unimpressive.
So, because Schoen never offered Wolf a real deal to consider"
This is opinion presented as fact.
All of these counter-arguments seem to hinge on believing that you can convince a franchise that needs a QB and specifically wants this QB to pass up on that opportunity for lottery tickets.
The kind of trade that would take is absurd and complex, as it should be. There is no real reason to believe further conversations did not take place just because we didnt see them.
I'm don't blame Schoen. What can you do when the other party apologizes for not communicating with you?
But that was not an offer.
I have to disagree that a more aggressive trade offer would have made a difference to Wolf. Kraft was never trading out of that position. They are just as desperate as we are for a quarterback and Drake Maye is a legitimate top tier prospect. Can you imagine if we were in that position and Schoen traded back for a bunch of picks?! A fireable offense for the ages no doubt!. And if Wolf had any real interest he would have outlined on that call precisely what it would have taken to move back knowing how desperate Schoen is. Wolf didn't do that. He actually apologized to Schoen for being so aloof. AKA, disinterested. There was no trade possibility.
I know I would take it. PS, INTs have to be the most overstated ding on a QB's record ever. They don't really matter unless they do matter. You'll know if they matter when you see them. If a Qb throws 300, 2 TDs and 3 INTs but puts up 28 pts in a win, did the INTs really hurt?
Not all INTs are created equal. Same with TDs. Same with passing yards. CONTEXT.
I have to disagree that a more aggressive trade offer would have made a difference to Wolf. Kraft was never trading out of that position. They are just as desperate as we are for a quarterback and Drake Maye is a legitimate top tier prospect. Can you imagine if we were in that position and Schoen traded back for a bunch of picks?! A fireable offense for the ages no doubt!. And if Wolf had any real interest he would have outlined on that call precisely what it would have taken to move back knowing how desperate Schoen is. Wolf didn't do that. He actually apologized to Schoen for being so aloof. AKA, disinterested. There was no trade possibility.
Remember, Schoen did the original reach out, not Wolf. So, you make the other party say no. It's negotiation 101.
I've resigned myself to him being here. It's one reason I've posted less and less since the draft, interest is waned.
Well at least there's one benefit to him staying...
:) kidding!
So, because Schoen never offered Wolf a real deal to consider"
This is opinion presented as fact.
All of these counter-arguments seem to hinge on believing that you can convince a franchise that needs a QB and specifically wants this QB to pass up on that opportunity for lottery tickets.
The kind of trade that would take is absurd and complex, as it should be. There is no real reason to believe further conversations did not take place just because we didnt see them.
That phone call shown was not a real offer. Not even close. And I acknowledged earlier that maybe another occurred.
My opinion, however, is another phone call very likely didn't occur based on what Schoen said in his draft strategy meeting with ownership and Daboll.
Now, maybe E5 will reveal something to the contrary. We'll see.
I know I would take it. PS, INTs have to be the most overstated ding on a QB's record ever. They don't really matter unless they do matter. You'll know if they matter when you see them. If a Qb throws 300, 2 TDs and 3 INTs but puts up 28 pts in a win, did the INTs really hurt?
Not all INTs are created equal. Same with TDs. Same with passing yards. CONTEXT.
I'm doubtful Jones will get 500 yds rushing this year, I just don't see them calling his number too often. But 3,700 yds and 25+ TD's would be pretty good production.
You lost me at INT's not mattering. Granted, not ALL INT's matter - like throwing a hail Mary at the end of the half or game that gets picked off - but by and large, INT's matter very much.
In your scenario, sure 28 pts sounds great, but what if those INT's lead to points and you lose 31-28, you're saying those INT's didn't matter?
Extra possessions are poison to a defense, and the team that turns the ball over least almost always wins. Yes, INT's matter, almost all the time.
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"
So, because Schoen never offered Wolf a real deal to consider"
This is opinion presented as fact.
All of these counter-arguments seem to hinge on believing that you can convince a franchise that needs a QB and specifically wants this QB to pass up on that opportunity for lottery tickets.
The kind of trade that would take is absurd and complex, as it should be. There is no real reason to believe further conversations did not take place just because we didnt see them.
That phone call shown was not a real offer. Not even close. And I acknowledged earlier that maybe another occurred.
My opinion, however, is another phone call very likely didn't occur based on what Schoen said in his draft strategy meeting with ownership and Daboll.
Now, maybe E5 will reveal something to the contrary. We'll see.
I think some are splitting hairs. Schoen had several conversations with Wolf, it seems. The last one was feeling if the Patriots were considering moving #3. Basically Wolf said no that they were sitting at #3 unless he got a crazy offer - I think he said like 1, 2, 3 and next years 1, 2, 3 (and then said well I am exaggerating).
So technically you could say no offer from the Giants was made because the beginning point was "ridiculously" high. But that doesn't mean they didn't want to make a trade with NE, it just means NE needed to be blown away with a return so crazy they could not turn it down.
It would be like asking an owner if his 1963 split window Corvette was for sale and the owner said yes, for $1 million. If the expected value was $500k, there is no point in proceeding.
I think some are splitting hairs. Schoen had several conversations with Wolf, it seems. The last one was feeling if the Patriots were considering moving #3. Basically Wolf said no that they were sitting at #3 unless he got a crazy offer - I think he said like 1, 2, 3 and next years 1, 2, 3 (and then said well I am exaggerating).
So technically you could say no offer from the Giants was made because the beginning point was "ridiculously" high. But that doesn't mean they didn't want to make a trade with NE, it just means NE needed to be blown away with a return so crazy they could not turn it down.
It would be like asking an owner if his 1963 split window Corvette was for sale and the owner said yes, for $1 million. If the expected value was $500k, there is no point in proceeding.
That's exactly how I see it. I negotiate for a living, if someone makes a ridiculous offer, I'll walk away. If they want to get serious, they know how to find me.
And who knows, maybe it gets revisited on draft night. I doubt it, but you never know.
I really don't know why people can't accept the possibility Schoen actually liked Jones just as much as Mara. And why do we assume Schoen is good at this GM thing? It's his maiden voyage as a GM with no prior GM experience to evaluate.
I think some are splitting hairs. Schoen had several conversations with Wolf, it seems. The last one was feeling if the Patriots were considering moving #3. Basically Wolf said no that they were sitting at #3 unless he got a crazy offer - I think he said like 1, 2, 3 and next years 1, 2, 3 (and then said well I am exaggerating).
So technically you could say no offer from the Giants was made because the beginning point was "ridiculously" high. But that doesn't mean they didn't want to make a trade with NE, it just means NE needed to be blown away with a return so crazy they could not turn it down.
That's defeatist talk to me.
Wolf is was/is brand new at the job. In fact, at the time of the draft, he was wearing the interim title. And that was manifest in the phone call where Wolf sounded disheveled. So, Schoen wasn't dealing with a seasoned pro like Howie Rosen.
Put your best offer on the table and make Wolf take it back to the Krafts. I want to hear them say no.
Say something like:
"Let's do this. I have to meet with my team in a few minutes but let me tell you our offer and give you and your team time to review it. We are prepared to offer you X,Y,Z, etc...
Talk it over with Robert and Jonthan and text me your feedback. And if it's further conversation, we can get back on the phone..."
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I think some are splitting hairs. Schoen had several conversations with Wolf, it seems. The last one was feeling if the Patriots were considering moving #3. Basically Wolf said no that they were sitting at #3 unless he got a crazy offer - I think he said like 1, 2, 3 and next years 1, 2, 3 (and then said well I am exaggerating).
So technically you could say no offer from the Giants was made because the beginning point was "ridiculously" high. But that doesn't mean they didn't want to make a trade with NE, it just means NE needed to be blown away with a return so crazy they could not turn it down.
That's defeatist talk to me.
Wolf is was/is brand new at the job. In fact, at the time of the draft, he was wearing the interim title. And that was manifest in the phone call where Wolf sounded disheveled. So, Schoen wasn't dealing with a seasoned pro like Howie Rosen.
Put your best offer on the table and make Wolf take it back to the Krafts. I want to hear them say no.
Say something like:
"Let's do this. I have to meet with my team in a few minutes but let me tell you our offer and give you and your team time to review it. We are prepared to offer you X,Y,Z, etc...
Talk it over with Robert and Jonthan and text me your feedback. And if it's further conversation, we can get back on the phone..."
Sure, you can do that, but not so early. Make them your best offer, and they’ll shop it around to see if they can get a better one. Make that offer when they’re on the clock, which we may see happen.
The thought of him having a middling '24 campaign & just rolling it back in '25 is so depressing...I don't even want to think more on it.
They had already gone through the bid-ask period and they weren't even close. And Wolf also was far from impressive and admitted to being poor with his own communications so Schoen read it all as this was all likely never going to happen. But Schoen still did what he should have and that was check-in to see if anything was still worth talking about.
That may not be how the negotiating experts view things on BBI but not sure Schoen should be thrown under the bus based on this scene.
He should be thrown under the bus because he gave Jones that contract.
But the Jones contract-to me-is like a cloud that blots out the sun. A huge tell to me will be what happens if Jones is just blah in '24...neither great nor horrendous...do we run it back for YEAR SEVEN?
its gonna be tough to say QB, Head Coach and GM all return again.
I have a feeling that at least two of them will leave together. Which two remain to be decided.
I give the character of GM played by Schoen an incomplete.
The most likely outcome was no dice. But he doesn't get the coveted "Did Everything He Could to Replace Jones" award for that performance.
But the Jones contract-to me-is like a cloud that blots out the sun. A huge tell to me will be what happens if Jones is just blah in '24...neither great nor horrendous...do we run it back for YEAR SEVEN?
SFG, it is just plain crazy. When Schoen didn't think clearly about how to handle Saquon and Jones last offseason he just showed how "green" he was at either player evaluation or contract negotiations, or both.
And I am also not interested in the Mara-influence at this point as Schoen is digging his own grave if he is just simply following the lead from a boss who adds zero football-value to decision making. And if Schoen isn't being influenced then its on him anyway.
And even if Schoen sucks at figuring out what to do with Daniel Jones, how the hell do you not draft a QB in any round of any draft since he was hired? It is inexcusable not to try to get better at QB through the draft.
This is rounding into yet another example of what not to do if you are the GM of the NY Giants.
I give the character of GM played by Schoen an incomplete.
The most likely outcome was no dice. But he doesn't get the coveted "Did Everything He Could to Replace Jones" award for that performance.
Why? Exactly what would you have done?
Wolf flat out said they weren't trading, they needed a QB. Wolf held the pick. He wanted Maye and had the right of 1st refusal. So what was Schoen to do?
I give the character of GM played by Schoen an incomplete.
The most likely outcome was no dice. But he doesn't get the coveted "Did Everything He Could to Replace Jones" award for that performance.
Why? Exactly what would you have done?
Wolf flat out said they weren't trading, they needed a QB. Wolf held the pick. He wanted Maye and had the right of 1st refusal. So what was Schoen to do?
Wolf didn't just say flat out they weren't trading. He stumbled and mumbled.
Doing everything you can goes something like: Eliot, I understand you're probably not trading the pick, but this is what I'm willing to offer [fill in the blank]. We think that's a really compelling offer and if you guys have any more questions I'm ready to talk.
I think JS wanted Jones. He seems a little stubborn imv with his positional values and there were ways he could have worked the NEFT and still had the money he wanted to make other moves. He also had Tisch to leverage (carefully).
Maybe he just decided to go with giving him a contract. There were some downsides to the NEFT that he probably considered as well.
The conversation being scrutinized occured ~300 minutes before New England turned in their envelope.
The date the decision needed to be made was pretty obvious.
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Wolf was the guy behind the guy, behind the guy, so I doubt anything would have mattered. But there is an art and science to the unsolicited bid. The first step, is of course the bid.
I give the character of GM played by Schoen an incomplete.
The most likely outcome was no dice. But he doesn't get the coveted "Did Everything He Could to Replace Jones" award for that performance.
Why? Exactly what would you have done?
Wolf flat out said they weren't trading, they needed a QB. Wolf held the pick. He wanted Maye and had the right of 1st refusal. So what was Schoen to do?
Wolf didn't just say flat out they weren't trading. He stumbled and mumbled.
Doing everything you can goes something like: Eliot, I understand you're probably not trading the pick, but this is what I'm willing to offer [fill in the blank]. We think that's a really compelling offer and if you guys have any more questions I'm ready to talk.
I do not know Wolf, Schoen does. I don't know his normal dictation, so that may be his personality. Remember, Wolf likely had been distracted by the draft pressure, too. Ever try to speak to someone while you are deeply focused elsewhere? He knew he wasn't trading - his staff and ownership had decided to go with Maye.
IMV, Schoen could read he wasn't moving. Sometimes, people are realists. They can read the other person, especially if they know each other. Wolf said they were staying at 3. And Wolf basically said they would need to get 1, 2, 3 this year and next year and chuckled about it, saying he was exaggerating a bit....but he wasn't.
Wolf: It was Schoen
Kraft: He still after you about the pick?
Wolf: Yup
Kraft: What did he offer?
Wolf: Nothing really
Kraft: Okie dokie
I hate to sound like a broken record, but Gettleman coming out PUBLICLY & saying he wouldn't even entertain offers for the 2nd overall pick in '18...THAT'S A FIREABLE OFFENSE! FFS! WHO SAYS THAT PUBLICLY? & WHO THINKS THAT?!?!!?!?!?!
Don't you dare talk about Rabbit Foot Dave like that.
Wolf: It was Schoen
Kraft: He still after you about the pick?
Wolf: Yup
Kraft: What did he offer?
Wolf: Nothing really
Kraft: Okie dokie
Nobody made more draft day trades the last twenty years than Belichick. If any owner would know how trade discussions should go, it's Kraft.
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A step up for the office of NYG GM.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but Gettleman coming out PUBLICLY & saying he wouldn't even entertain offers for the 2nd overall pick in '18...THAT'S A FIREABLE OFFENSE! FFS! WHO SAYS THAT PUBLICLY? & WHO THINKS THAT?!?!!?!?!?!
I've really enjoyed these Hard Knocks episodes. But I can't imagine how much more entertaining they would be with Resume Dave as the GM.
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A step up for the office of NYG GM.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but Gettleman coming out PUBLICLY & saying he wouldn't even entertain offers for the 2nd overall pick in '18...THAT'S A FIREABLE OFFENSE! FFS! WHO SAYS THAT PUBLICLY? & WHO THINKS THAT?!?!!?!?!?!
Q. What moron(s) gives Daniel Jones 4 years $160M and $92M guaranteed?
A. The NY Giant Front Office and a few questionable posters on BBI
Wolf: It was Schoen
Kraft: He still after you about the pick?
Wolf: Yup
Kraft: What did he offer?
Wolf: Nothing really
Kraft: Okie dokie
Nobody made more draft day trades the last twenty years than Belichick. If any owner would know how trade discussions should go, it's Kraft.
You're assuming Bill didn't lock Bobby in the massage room on draft day : )
That shit would win an Emmy. I mentioned to BBI Eric that night, watching the PR guy get the bends prepping Dave for a new conference would be gold.
- Clownshoes HC in McAdoo
- Defensive players fighting each other (namely Collins, Casillas and others with Apple and the HC not doing shit to stop it); Casillas said this happened in 2016 and McAdoo didn't change his coaching style
- Drafting a TE who can't block in the 1st round with qualified OL available
- signing old ass WR's
- Jerry Reese telling Pro Bowl LT Andrew Whitworth they were not interested, because hey, we have fucking Ereck Flowers
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I don't need to be an NFL GM to know what a real offer sounds like. I have negotiated scores of deals in my field. And in that conversation with Wolf before the draft, Schoen danced around the edges, and never offered a clear, well-thought deal for Wolf to consider.
well, that displays appropriate bw humility, lol. I don't know what your field is, but in mine, or what used to be mine, where the deck is stacked squarely against you, what 'well-thought deal' might have enticed Wolfe's (Wolf's) interest, curious. As I said, Mara set a parameter in either HK 3 or 4 about not giving up the farm. So how exactly would you thread that needle?
I don't care if the "deck is stacked". Make a specific offer where you lay out your exact position and get Wolf/Pats to actually say no. Schoen was sort of daydreaming about picks to offer.
Because you never know what might start a conversation that leads to an actual deal.
Look, I don't want to give the impression that a deal would have been imminent if we did make an actual offer on that call. I just wasn't impressed the way Schoen handled it. I had higher expectations. Then again, I always seem to have higher expectations for this organization... ;)
Schoen is telling Mara that he's waiting to see what he should do with Elliot. It makes me think the deal was further along and they manufactured that call for TV.
I take the whole of the TV program as docudrama. I think most of us are critiquing the characters as developed for the show. I think.
I take the whole of the TV program as docudrama. I think most of us are critiquing the characters as developed for the show. I think.
Based on that call in a vacuum, Schoen should have made an aggressive offer on the spot. Make Wolf really think it over. And then call back and add another pick. Maybe a player too. Make him keep saying no.
They were within striking distance after all. They don't plan to be in April of 2025.
I'd have been really impressed by Schoen if we saw him make a formal offer to Wolf, then they cut to a clip of Garafolo reporting the Giants made a "significant offer" to the Patriots that included multiple first round picks.
Get every voice on the other side questioning what the right thing to do is.
The entire show was made for TV, but you honestly think Schoen called Wolf 4 hours before the draft to waste both of their times?
The single most important sentence in that entire conversation was Wolf saying ... we are staying at #3 after Schoen asked him if they were open to a trade.
No means no.