And it spoke volumes, IMO.
Schoen was at the Clemson/Georgia game and was chatting with Ryan Poles and Schoen said (and I quote): “Gotta be nice not to be looking at the, uhh…” and Poles finished his sentence “quarterbacks”. Schoen just laughed.
Yep. Schoen was there for Carson Beck. Make no mistake about it. Schoen knows we don’t have a QB.
Link - ( New Window )
We knew that when they were discussing making a move up, or talking to all the prospects in general.
Paralysis by analysis.
DJ doesn't have a fan club. Just people like Schoen with measured belief. It only seems like a fan club because of all the assholes who can't wake up without pissing on the dude. It's a psychosis. A scary one actually.
Jones has never pushed into "Elite", he's never been in the conversation for a top 5 QB, and he's often considered one of the bottom 5 by pundits.
Bottom line, they are drafting a QB next year at some point.
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Schoen tipping his hand on two different Hard Knocks in one offseason is certainly a choice, but yeah, this is a dagger for the DJFC. Link - ( New Window )
DJ doesn't have a fan club. Just people like Schoen with measured belief. It only seems like a fan club because of all the assholes who can't wake up without pissing on the dude. It's a psychosis. A scary one actually.
Amen
1 - He's not in their long term plans unless he shows the turn around of all turn arounds this season
2 - Just an opinion, but I think both Schoen and Daboll have decided that they're okay rolling with Jones until they can find someone "elite" rather than just better than Jones
The question is can they find a guy before Mara moves on from them?
Maybe, but far less than you'd expect supposed fans to not reach, daily, for some tired, overplayed, myopic, in the past bullshit to bitch about and demean their starting QB.
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LOL the starting quarterback of the team doesn't have a fan club? You'd expect that to be the case, no?
Maybe, but far less than you'd expect supposed fans to not reach, daily, for some tired, overplayed, myopic, in the past bullshit to bitch about and demean their starting QB.
Well said
Does that make them fans of him? I think so.
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LOL the starting quarterback of the team doesn't have a fan club? You'd expect that to be the case, no?
Maybe, but far less than you'd expect supposed fans to not reach, daily, for some tired, overplayed, myopic, in the past bullshit to bitch about and demean their starting QB.
I don't know, five years of middling play is something I should be fired up about?
It is not.
And knowing that the peak of the team is capped by that middling performance just about drains any enthusiasm I have for this season.
I'm already looking at next year's crop.
Hell, if Daniel Jones was our long term solution, we would have re-structured his contract to get more cap space.
Sh*t or get off the pot at this point, and if this season goes bad, I'm not sure he should get the privilege to Sh*t.
You can't tip your hand when the entire world already knows what you going to do
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In comment 16594494 christian said:
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LOL the starting quarterback of the team doesn't have a fan club? You'd expect that to be the case, no?
Maybe, but far less than you'd expect supposed fans to not reach, daily, for some tired, overplayed, myopic, in the past bullshit to bitch about and demean their starting QB.
I don't know, five years of middling play is something I should be fired up about?
It is not.
And knowing that the peak of the team is capped by that middling performance just about drains any enthusiasm I have for this season.
I'm already looking at next year's crop.
The Giants have 4 SB trophies because QBs with years of middling play raised their game at the right time.
Enjoy your disdain and wallow in your dissatisfaction at years gone by. Doesn't seem fun to me, but you do you.
Bias fogs perception.
So, the question becomes what Schoen does with QB if they are 8-9 and picking 14th? Because that's the issue. Someone like Carson Beck will be long gone.
Then it's either Jones or a free agent in 2025. Schoen put himself in a tough spot.
Sh*t or get off the pot at this point, and if this season goes bad, I'm not sure he should get the privilege to Sh*t.
Mara was overheard talking to McKaskey: “Gotta be nice not to be looking at the, uhh…” and McKaskey finished his sentence “GMs”.
Bias fogs perception.
I just listened to it. Schoen's making complementary small talk with Poles.
I wouldn't think anyone could misinterpret that. Looking at the OP now I understand.
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In comment 16594499 HBart said:
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In comment 16594494 christian said:
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LOL the starting quarterback of the team doesn't have a fan club? You'd expect that to be the case, no?
Maybe, but far less than you'd expect supposed fans to not reach, daily, for some tired, overplayed, myopic, in the past bullshit to bitch about and demean their starting QB.
I don't know, five years of middling play is something I should be fired up about?
It is not.
And knowing that the peak of the team is capped by that middling performance just about drains any enthusiasm I have for this season.
I'm already looking at next year's crop.
The Giants have 4 SB trophies because QBs with years of middling play raised their game at the right time.
Enjoy your disdain and wallow in your dissatisfaction at years gone by. Doesn't seem fun to me, but you do you.
Stop comparing Simms and Eli to Daniel Fucking Jones.
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In comment 16594515 Blueworm said:
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In comment 16594499 HBart said:
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In comment 16594494 christian said:
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LOL the starting quarterback of the team doesn't have a fan club? You'd expect that to be the case, no?
Maybe, but far less than you'd expect supposed fans to not reach, daily, for some tired, overplayed, myopic, in the past bullshit to bitch about and demean their starting QB.
I don't know, five years of middling play is something I should be fired up about?
It is not.
And knowing that the peak of the team is capped by that middling performance just about drains any enthusiasm I have for this season.
I'm already looking at next year's crop.
The Giants have 4 SB trophies because QBs with years of middling play raised their game at the right time.
Enjoy your disdain and wallow in your dissatisfaction at years gone by. Doesn't seem fun to me, but you do you.
Stop comparing Simms and Eli to Daniel Fucking Jones.
Why? Cause it doesn't fit your fucked up narrative?
Stop comparing Simms and Eli to Daniel Fucking Jones.
Why? Cause it doesn't fit your fucked up narrative?
Simms had just 34 starts entering his 6th season compared to Jones's 60.
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Stop comparing Simms and Eli to Daniel Fucking Jones.
Why? Cause it doesn't fit your fucked up narrative?
Simms had just 34 starts entering his 6th season compared to Jones's 60.
And Schoen reupped him after watching or having film on 55 of those starts. What a poor decision and hopefully one that costs him his job if this season goes the way I think it is going to go. He is not the guy.
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In comment 16594527 HBart said:
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In comment 16594515 Blueworm said:
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In comment 16594499 HBart said:
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In comment 16594494 christian said:
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LOL the starting quarterback of the team doesn't have a fan club? You'd expect that to be the case, no?
Maybe, but far less than you'd expect supposed fans to not reach, daily, for some tired, overplayed, myopic, in the past bullshit to bitch about and demean their starting QB.
I don't know, five years of middling play is something I should be fired up about?
It is not.
And knowing that the peak of the team is capped by that middling performance just about drains any enthusiasm I have for this season.
I'm already looking at next year's crop.
The Giants have 4 SB trophies because QBs with years of middling play raised their game at the right time.
Enjoy your disdain and wallow in your dissatisfaction at years gone by. Doesn't seem fun to me, but you do you.
Stop comparing Simms and Eli to Daniel Fucking Jones.
Why? Cause it doesn't fit your fucked up narrative?
Because it’s a stupid fucking point.
He opted to get a blue chip player at a position of need rather than reaching for a QB at 6 they didn't have rated nearly that high. To me, that's sound management.
He will do the same extensive research on this class and be ready when draft time comes. The situation will be different.
Jones will have either played himself into the long term solution or out the door (they can cut bait after this season).
Schoen will want to be ready in case he does need to take a QB. Either way, he knows upgrading at QB is paramount for this team to have sustained success.
Oh and he's not going anywhere even if they go 3-14, Mara will not want to continue revolving door of GMs.
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In comment 16594576 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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In comment 16594527 HBart said:
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In comment 16594515 Blueworm said:
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In comment 16594499 HBart said:
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In comment 16594494 christian said:
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LOL the starting quarterback of the team doesn't have a fan club? You'd expect that to be the case, no?
Maybe, but far less than you'd expect supposed fans to not reach, daily, for some tired, overplayed, myopic, in the past bullshit to bitch about and demean their starting QB.
I don't know, five years of middling play is something I should be fired up about?
It is not.
And knowing that the peak of the team is capped by that middling performance just about drains any enthusiasm I have for this season.
I'm already looking at next year's crop.
The Giants have 4 SB trophies because QBs with years of middling play raised their game at the right time.
Enjoy your disdain and wallow in your dissatisfaction at years gone by. Doesn't seem fun to me, but you do you.
Stop comparing Simms and Eli to Daniel Fucking Jones.
Why? Cause it doesn't fit your fucked up narrative?
Because it’s a stupid fucking point.
Ignoring facts is the root of ignorance. I'll keep helping in your quest to stay that way. My gift to BBI.
Hell, if Daniel Jones was our long term solution, we would have re-structured his contract to get more cap space.
Outside of a disastrous season by Jones I fully expect him to be back next year. This is purely based on this regimes' actions and how that contract is structured.
Oh and he's not going anywhere even if they go 3-14, Mara will not want to continue revolving door of GMs.
I would prefer continuity as well but I'm not feeling confident if end result is essentially punting 3 seasons (2 of Jones on the new contract plus whoever will be a rookie in 25) because he couldn't walk away in the negotiating room. That's almost an entire rookie contract! Think about this, by the time their 2025 rookie is ready to compete in 2026 (presumably), Wan'Dale will have already been a free agent, and Hyatt will be entering a contract year.
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In comment 16594515 Blueworm said:
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In comment 16594499 HBart said:
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In comment 16594494 christian said:
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LOL the starting quarterback of the team doesn't have a fan club? You'd expect that to be the case, no?
Maybe, but far less than you'd expect supposed fans to not reach, daily, for some tired, overplayed, myopic, in the past bullshit to bitch about and demean their starting QB.
I don't know, five years of middling play is something I should be fired up about?
It is not.
And knowing that the peak of the team is capped by that middling performance just about drains any enthusiasm I have for this season.
I'm already looking at next year's crop.
The Giants have 4 SB trophies because QBs with years of middling play raised their game at the right time.
Enjoy your disdain and wallow in your dissatisfaction at years gone by. Doesn't seem fun to me, but you do you.
Stop comparing Simms and Eli to Daniel Fucking Jones.
Yeah, because Simms first 5 years here was brilliant.
If he played in the 2020's he would.
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If he played in the 2020's he would.
If Sims played in the 2020s he wouldn’t have gotten 5 years
The irony of you, of all people, saying this with a straight face is something else. You are far more charitable and forgiving towards this five season failure than you ever were towards the guy who won Super Bowls.
There is no issue with it, the issue is that he is too dumb to keep his mouth shut--that is the issue. As I said, I have never come across less impressed with a person from a reality sports show than I have Joe Schoen.
All I can say is I hope he wasn't at Notre Dame/A&M for the QBs based on what I saw.
I dont think Jones is the future, even if he has a good year i dont think he is the future, you just cant trust him that is the point we are at..
At the same time i dont want Schoen to just make a move jist to make a move, you can add a vet but how many vet son the market are actually an upgrade over Jones? He tried to move up and it didnt work out and he wasnt settling for a QB they didnt love...
So he got the weapon and kept building around the QB position...
I seem to recall another GM doing this in this town and got criticized, me included, that he nedded to make the big move, needed to add a star and he continued to build the talent and now has the best team in NY...
I get it everyone wants Jones gone but maybe lrts have a little patience and see who Schoen and Daboll target
Who did he pass on?
And which "studs" are these?
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In comment 16594583 HBart said:
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In comment 16594576 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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In comment 16594527 HBart said:
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In comment 16594515 Blueworm said:
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In comment 16594499 HBart said:
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In comment 16594494 christian said:
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LOL the starting quarterback of the team doesn't have a fan club? You'd expect that to be the case, no?
Maybe, but far less than you'd expect supposed fans to not reach, daily, for some tired, overplayed, myopic, in the past bullshit to bitch about and demean their starting QB.
I don't know, five years of middling play is something I should be fired up about?
It is not.
And knowing that the peak of the team is capped by that middling performance just about drains any enthusiasm I have for this season.
I'm already looking at next year's crop.
The Giants have 4 SB trophies because QBs with years of middling play raised their game at the right time.
Enjoy your disdain and wallow in your dissatisfaction at years gone by. Doesn't seem fun to me, but you do you.
Stop comparing Simms and Eli to Daniel Fucking Jones.
Why? Cause it doesn't fit your fucked up narrative?
Because it’s a stupid fucking point.
Ignoring facts is the root of ignorance. I'll keep helping in your quest to stay that way. My gift to BBI.
Ignoring the situation around you is far worse than what you're accusing SFGF of. The comparisons to Simms and even Eli put the modern NFL of 2024 on level ground with their eras and that is simply not the case. The rules are different, contact structures are different, expectations are different. Informing current decisions based on what worked in the distant past (and yes in sports Simms era is the distant past) shows a lack of comprehension for the modern game.
Schoen likes to window shop.
Look, fans need to come to the realization that Schoen actually believes in Jones's talent and Daboll's ability to coach/develop him. Sure, he may not think he's an elite player, but they saw him win a big game in Minnesota. And I think that still carries significant weight...
I wish this wasn't the case, but it's a conclusion that seems very plausible at this point.
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I'd be bummed if he wasn't looking at all of the college qb's (except DJU)
All I can say is I hope he wasn't at Notre Dame/A&M for the QBs based on what I saw.
Me neither. Another former Duke qb and a brutal A&M qb
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If he is so concerned about QB, there were about a half-dozen moves he could have explored this offseason even outside of a 1st round pick. Instead, he made the position group worse.
Schoen likes to window shop.
Look, fans need to come to the realization that Schoen actually believes in Jones's talent and Daboll's ability to coach/develop him. Sure, he may not think he's an elite player, but they saw him win a big game in Minnesota. And I think that still carries significant weight...
I wish this wasn't the case, but it's a conclusion that seems very plausible at this point.
Or he doesnt want to replace him just to replace him, they want to just add someone just to add someone..
They also dont want to drsft someone because they "have" to, they want to actually like the prospect because drsfting someone
Bias fogs perception.
This x1000. Depending on your perception, bias, whatever, you can certainly take this either way. After listening to this a couple times, to me it sounds like Schoen could certainly be complementing Poles that they have their guy and won't have to worry about scouting QB's (hopefully any time soon for them). On the other hand, given the injury history of DJ and his performance last year, it would be gross negligence for Schoen to not be looking at QB's this year, especially this early before a single regular season NFL snap has been played.
I don't post much, but I made it known in several threads before the draft I wanted JJM at 6, so this post is no way a "DJFC" or "DJ apologist" situation. As some have said, and I feel it's been said begrudgingly by some, I hope Jones lights it the F up this year to hopefully have one less hole to fill (as well as using up other draft capital to potentially trade up for a QB) going forward.
The season can't get here soon enough...
Simms also didn't win a playoff game at that point.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
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Ways of interpreting this. 1 being what the original poster took it as. 2, guys shooting the shit and one complimenting that they got their guy.
Bias fogs perception.
I just listened to it. Schoen's making complementary small talk with Poles.
I wouldn't think anyone could misinterpret that. Looking at the OP now I understand.
Yup -Danny comeback player of the year campaign starts Sunday..
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
I agree, the season hasn't even started, and people want to start planting the seeds of Schoen's doom. Lot's of miserable people around here.
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It only seems like a fan club because of all the assholes who can't wake up without pissing on the dude. It's a psychosis. A scary one actually.
The irony of you, of all people, saying this with a straight face is something else. You are far more charitable and forgiving towards this five season failure than you ever were towards the guy who won Super Bowls.
Hbart may be Pat Hanlon.
The reason Schoen is busy scouting quarterbacks is because Schoen is now fully responsible for this team's abominable predicament by making the dumbest contract decision in Giants history. He himself put this franchise in the deepest quadrant of quarterback hell, not Dave Gettleman or John Mara. Joe Schoen has no one to blame but himself.
It seems like every day evidence emerges that sullies Schoen's credibility. Let's hope the team gets off to a good start or this debate about his competence and lack of self-awareness will begin to gain significant traction in the coming months.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say he was just paying Poles a compliment.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say he was just paying Poles a compliment.
But isn't he a moron regardless even if his intent was just to give Poles a compliment knowing that he was mic'd up.
So, the question becomes what Schoen does with QB if they are 8-9 and picking 14th? Because that's the issue. Someone like Carson Beck will be long gone.
Then it's either Jones or a free agent in 2025. Schoen put himself in a tough spot.
You think Mara fires him at 5-12?
No way......I can't see that.
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Schoen is a complete moron if he intended it like the original poster interpreted it. These guys know when each other are mic'd up.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say he was just paying Poles a compliment.
But isn't he a moron regardless even if his intent was just to give Poles a compliment knowing that he was mic'd up.
Why? They drafted #1. It's not like they got something over on the Giants.
So, the question becomes what Schoen does with QB if they are 8-9 and picking 14th? Because that's the issue. Someone like Carson Beck will be long gone.
Then it's either Jones or a free agent in 2025. Schoen put himself in a tough spot.
Don't know if you are paying attention to college football, but there's a lot more than Carson Beck out there.
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If he played in the 2020's he would.
That's purely speculative. There's also a chance that if he played in the current era, with the salary cap, rookie contracts, and veteran QB contracts being what they are, that Simms never sees a starting gig again after his third or fourth year.
And even so, relying on exceptions doesn't make rules. The vast majority of QBs who start their career on a mediocre track turn out to be mediocre QBs. Holding out hope that prior unlikely events will repeat themselves (based purely on that hope and nothing else) is generally a poor strategy if the goal is success rather than nostalgia.
@DDuggan21
This is why it's almost useless to do the Schoen scouting itinerary tracker this season. We know he's going to be on the QB circuit. Was more intriguing last season because there was at least the question of, "Would they really draft a QB a year after giving Jones that contract?"
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Exactly. None of this is news. They tried to trade up for a QB they liked a lot and couldn't. They weren't as high on other QBs and took a franchise type WR. This year is a very deep QB draft, and they should be drafting someone imo
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
So you wouod of gottent rid of Jones coming off the playoffs? and replace him with who?
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
LOL....maybe Schoen shouldn't embarrass himself and even go to scout since he failed this year - bad look admitting he let the team down.
Go incognito so no one knows it's actually him. Save face.
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In comment 16594686 BillKo said:
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
So you wouod of gottent rid of Jones coming off the playoffs? and replace him with who?
I would have let him go to free agency. If that was untenable for this franchise then I could understand some form of the tag. Keeping AND paying longer term was foolish.
You see that now at least, right?
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In comment 16594686 BillKo said:
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
LOL....maybe Schoen shouldn't embarrass himself and even go to scout since he failed this year - bad look admitting he let the team down.
Go incognito so no one knows it's actually him. Save face.
He should clearly scout. But he seems to enjoy wasting his time because he can’t seem to come to a resolve to draft a QB, of any kind.
The bad look is joking about it, when it can easily be seen that the joke is on him as to the decisions he has made at the position.
No reeason to make stretched comparisons to the past.
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In comment 16594724 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594686 BillKo said:
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
So you wouod of gottent rid of Jones coming off the playoffs? and replace him with who?
I would have let him go to free agency. If that was untenable for this franchise then I could understand some form of the tag. Keeping AND paying longer term was foolish.
You see that now at least, right?
But is it really a long term deal? its essentially 2 years..
You also have to realize that Schoen really had no choice, they were coming off the playoffs he couldnt just let him walk...
and if he tags Jones that means Saquom walks and you are basically making the team worse coming off the playoffs...
then if you tag him and you let him walk after last year, fine with me, but then whose the QB? Minshew? draft Mccarthy? Penix or Nix and have no Nabers?
Do i think Jones is the answrr? absolutely not, but killing schoen for bringing him back which was essentially a 2 year deal is really not fair either..
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In comment 16594724 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594686 BillKo said:
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
LOL....maybe Schoen shouldn't embarrass himself and even go to scout since he failed this year - bad look admitting he let the team down.
Go incognito so no one knows it's actually him. Save face.
He should clearly scout. But he seems to enjoy wasting his time because he can’t seem to come to a resolve to draft a QB, of any kind.
The bad look is joking about it, when it can easily be seen that the joke is on him as to the decisions he has made at the position.
So, he should have just drafted a QB he or the team didn't believe in? Not sure where you are going with this.
I mean....
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they were coming off the playoffs he couldnt just let him walk
I mean....
they werent coming off the playoffs when they let him go
Because then they had to let Saquon walk
What bothers me is more wasn't done this year to address QB.
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In comment 16594739 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 16594724 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594686 BillKo said:
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
So you wouod of gottent rid of Jones coming off the playoffs? and replace him with who?
I would have let him go to free agency. If that was untenable for this franchise then I could understand some form of the tag. Keeping AND paying longer term was foolish.
You see that now at least, right?
But is it really a long term deal? its essentially 2 years..
You also have to realize that Schoen really had no choice, they were coming off the playoffs he couldnt just let him walk...
and if he tags Jones that means Saquom walks and you are basically making the team worse coming off the playoffs...
then if you tag him and you let him walk after last year, fine with me, but then whose the QB? Minshew? draft Mccarthy? Penix or Nix and have no Nabers?
Do i think Jones is the answrr? absolutely not, but killing schoen for bringing him back which was essentially a 2 year deal is really not fair either..
The no choice theme is as weak as any excuse you read on here.
In giving that, it is very easy to see how so many of you DJ fans or former fans that still can’t fully grasp the idea his being on this roster is holding this team back. Year after year.
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In comment 16594744 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594739 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 16594724 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594686 BillKo said:
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
So you wouod of gottent rid of Jones coming off the playoffs? and replace him with who?
I would have let him go to free agency. If that was untenable for this franchise then I could understand some form of the tag. Keeping AND paying longer term was foolish.
You see that now at least, right?
But is it really a long term deal? its essentially 2 years..
You also have to realize that Schoen really had no choice, they were coming off the playoffs he couldnt just let him walk...
and if he tags Jones that means Saquom walks and you are basically making the team worse coming off the playoffs...
then if you tag him and you let him walk after last year, fine with me, but then whose the QB? Minshew? draft Mccarthy? Penix or Nix and have no Nabers?
Do i think Jones is the answrr? absolutely not, but killing schoen for bringing him back which was essentially a 2 year deal is really not fair either..
The no choice theme is as weak as any excuse you read on here.
In giving that, it is very easy to see how so many of you DJ fans or former fans that still can’t fully grasp the idea his being on this roster is holding this team back. Year after year.
Well then you are not being fair, you expected Schoen to basically take a step back after making the playoffs and winning game, thats not realistic and no gm in football would of made that decision..
1 - He's not in their long term plans unless he shows the turn around of all turn arounds this season
2 - Just an opinion, but I think both Schoen and Daboll have decided that they're okay rolling with Jones until they can find someone "elite" rather than just better than Jones
The question is can they find a guy before Mara moves on from them?
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In comment 16594740 BillKo said:
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In comment 16594724 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594686 BillKo said:
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
LOL....maybe Schoen shouldn't embarrass himself and even go to scout since he failed this year - bad look admitting he let the team down.
Go incognito so no one knows it's actually him. Save face.
He should clearly scout. But he seems to enjoy wasting his time because he can’t seem to come to a resolve to draft a QB, of any kind.
The bad look is joking about it, when it can easily be seen that the joke is on him as to the decisions he has made at the position.
So, he should have just drafted a QB he or the team didn't believe in? Not sure where you are going with this.
Not sure where you are either.
He should have never believed in Jones. That’s an evaluation mistake.
If he was even on the fence then he should have forced DJs hand with free agency or the tag, and bought himself another year. That contract was a negotiation mistake.
In the meanwhile, try to find some “belief” in another prospect. Stop wasting time.
A)wouldn't have cared at all if they had
B)they ended up letting walk anyway a year later
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In comment 16594740 BillKo said:
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In comment 16594724 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594686 BillKo said:
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
LOL....maybe Schoen shouldn't embarrass himself and even go to scout since he failed this year - bad look admitting he let the team down.
Go incognito so no one knows it's actually him. Save face.
He should clearly scout. But he seems to enjoy wasting his time because he can’t seem to come to a resolve to draft a QB, of any kind.
The bad look is joking about it, when it can easily be seen that the joke is on him as to the decisions he has made at the position.
So, he should have just drafted a QB he or the team didn't believe in? Not sure where you are going with this.
Do most mid/late round draft picks hit? Absolutely not.
Do some hit and become franchise QBs? Occasionally - it's extremely rare, but it does happen.
Do some hit and become viable (and cheap) backup QBs? Yes.
Do you ever have a chance at finding a diamond in the rough as either a backup or a starter if you literally never draft one at all? No.
It's crazy that Schoen hasn't drafted any QB at all in three full drafts. It's even crazier that the Giants had been ignoring the position for a few years before that, too.
There are two separate issues here, IMO:
Schoen was unable to pull the trigger on a QB prospect that he did like (Maye) because he wasn't in position to draft that prospect and couldn't execute a trade to get into position to draft that prospect. That's issue #1, but it only addresses the idea of taking a direct path to finding a replacement for DJ that will become a bona fide franchise QB (hopefully).
The second issue is a failure to address the QB position at all through the draft for multiple years now. Yes, there's a very high bust rate for QBs outside of the first round. But by day three of the draft, there's a high best rate for pretty much every position. I guarantee Schoen isn't ignoring day three DL just because he already has Dex. So why continue to ignore developmental QB prospects even if he genuinely believes in DJ?
The Giants appear to be grossly negligent at the most important position in the sport, and treat a player who has shown very little reliability (particularly in terms of injuries) as though he's the ironman that his predecessor was.
If this was the OL and the team had not drafted a single prospect at the position in over five years, people would lose their minds. But when fans complain about the Giants actual lack of activity at the QB position, they get shouted down by their fellow fans.
Just improve the f*cking team already. No position groups should be immune from that, regardless of the incumbent.
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In comment 16594753 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 16594744 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594739 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 16594724 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594686 BillKo said:
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
So you wouod of gottent rid of Jones coming off the playoffs? and replace him with who?
I would have let him go to free agency. If that was untenable for this franchise then I could understand some form of the tag. Keeping AND paying longer term was foolish.
You see that now at least, right?
But is it really a long term deal? its essentially 2 years..
You also have to realize that Schoen really had no choice, they were coming off the playoffs he couldnt just let him walk...
and if he tags Jones that means Saquom walks and you are basically making the team worse coming off the playoffs...
then if you tag him and you let him walk after last year, fine with me, but then whose the QB? Minshew? draft Mccarthy? Penix or Nix and have no Nabers?
Do i think Jones is the answrr? absolutely not, but killing schoen for bringing him back which was essentially a 2 year deal is really not fair either..
The no choice theme is as weak as any excuse you read on here.
In giving that, it is very easy to see how so many of you DJ fans or former fans that still can’t fully grasp the idea his being on this roster is holding this team back. Year after year.
Well then you are not being fair, you expected Schoen to basically take a step back after making the playoffs and winning game, thats not realistic and no gm in football would of made that decision..
Don’t need to step back. Stand up straight and assess the situation correctly.
Besides, the last game in the playoffs showed you everything nodded, about the state of that team and QB, in case you missed it during the season.
Wake up. You are missed it and have had 2 years to think about why.
What bothers me is more wasn't done this year to address QB.
That's because of the contract. There was now way (outside of NE giving away their pick for less -than-market value) they were getting anyone to replace Jones while he's making $40m this season.
Mara got what he wanted. Hopefully Schoen/Daboll gets whet they wants next season.
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Because then they had to let Saquon walk
A)wouldn't have cared at all if they had
B)they ended up letting walk anyway a year later
I agree but in the position the Giants were in at the time, it would of been stupid to let Saquon walk
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In comment 16594771 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594753 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 16594744 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594739 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 16594724 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594686 BillKo said:
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
So you wouod of gottent rid of Jones coming off the playoffs? and replace him with who?
I would have let him go to free agency. If that was untenable for this franchise then I could understand some form of the tag. Keeping AND paying longer term was foolish.
You see that now at least, right?
But is it really a long term deal? its essentially 2 years..
You also have to realize that Schoen really had no choice, they were coming off the playoffs he couldnt just let him walk...
and if he tags Jones that means Saquom walks and you are basically making the team worse coming off the playoffs...
then if you tag him and you let him walk after last year, fine with me, but then whose the QB? Minshew? draft Mccarthy? Penix or Nix and have no Nabers?
Do i think Jones is the answrr? absolutely not, but killing schoen for bringing him back which was essentially a 2 year deal is really not fair either..
The no choice theme is as weak as any excuse you read on here.
In giving that, it is very easy to see how so many of you DJ fans or former fans that still can’t fully grasp the idea his being on this roster is holding this team back. Year after year.
Well then you are not being fair, you expected Schoen to basically take a step back after making the playoffs and winning game, thats not realistic and no gm in football would of made that decision..
Don’t need to step back. Stand up straight and assess the situation correctly.
Besides, the last game in the playoffs showed you everything nodded, about the state of that team and QB, in case you missed it during the season.
Wake up. You are missed it and have had 2 years to think about why.
easy to do sitting on your couch and not having to deal with the media or the team or players who would of questioned why you took a step back after making the playoffs
you make it sound so easy maybe you should be a gm
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In comment 16594583 HBart said:
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In comment 16594576 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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In comment 16594527 HBart said:
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In comment 16594515 Blueworm said:
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In comment 16594494 christian said:
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LOL the starting quarterback of the team doesn't have a fan club? You'd expect that to be the case, no?
Maybe, but far less than you'd expect supposed fans to not reach, daily, for some tired, overplayed, myopic, in the past bullshit to bitch about and demean their starting QB.
I don't know, five years of middling play is something I should be fired up about?
It is not.
And knowing that the peak of the team is capped by that middling performance just about drains any enthusiasm I have for this season.
I'm already looking at next year's crop.
The Giants have 4 SB trophies because QBs with years of middling play raised their game at the right time.
Enjoy your disdain and wallow in your dissatisfaction at years gone by. Doesn't seem fun to me, but you do you.
Stop comparing Simms and Eli to Daniel Fucking Jones.
Why? Cause it doesn't fit your fucked up narrative?
Because it’s a stupid fucking point.
Ignoring facts is the root of ignorance. I'll keep helping in your quest to stay that way. My gift to BBI.
Sure but there's nothing factual being presented when pointing out that two previous QBs who were each superior to Jones did something that Jones will never do.
Whoever said that needs to shake their head. They must think this defense is up to that standard too.
Some stupid comments here.
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In comment 16594701 Giantsbigblue said:
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Schoen is a complete moron if he intended it like the original poster interpreted it. These guys know when each other are mic'd up.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say he was just paying Poles a compliment.
But isn't he a moron regardless even if his intent was just to give Poles a compliment knowing that he was mic'd up.
Why? They drafted #1. It's not like they got something over on the Giants.
Because Jones is his QB now. I wish Jones wasn't, but he is. You don't make Jones life more difficult by creating a story for the media to run with that the Giants again have no faith in you. That is dumb and an unforced error.
But they made the playoffs and he was stuck, easy for people to say sitting on their couch hey you could still tear it down, but he would of been killed by the media and no GM in theor right midn would of done that..
Now he has to go one more year with Jones and he has more freedom
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In comment 16594775 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 16594771 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594753 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 16594744 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594739 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 16594724 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16594686 BillKo said:
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Schoen knows the Bears just took a QB #1 overall and aren't looking at QB....so he makes small talk on it that gets picked up.
This makes Schoen look bad?
Everyone knows they were looking to possibly draft a QB and are in the futures for a QB.
Schoen makes himself look bad. Making stupid comments about GMs/QBs when he has done absolutely nothing to improve the team at the position. Only wasting time and money.
Were you thinking this was a good look?
So you wouod of gottent rid of Jones coming off the playoffs? and replace him with who?
I would have let him go to free agency. If that was untenable for this franchise then I could understand some form of the tag. Keeping AND paying longer term was foolish.
You see that now at least, right?
But is it really a long term deal? its essentially 2 years..
You also have to realize that Schoen really had no choice, they were coming off the playoffs he couldnt just let him walk...
and if he tags Jones that means Saquom walks and you are basically making the team worse coming off the playoffs...
then if you tag him and you let him walk after last year, fine with me, but then whose the QB? Minshew? draft Mccarthy? Penix or Nix and have no Nabers?
Do i think Jones is the answrr? absolutely not, but killing schoen for bringing him back which was essentially a 2 year deal is really not fair either..
The no choice theme is as weak as any excuse you read on here.
In giving that, it is very easy to see how so many of you DJ fans or former fans that still can’t fully grasp the idea his being on this roster is holding this team back. Year after year.
Well then you are not being fair, you expected Schoen to basically take a step back after making the playoffs and winning game, thats not realistic and no gm in football would of made that decision..
Don’t need to step back. Stand up straight and assess the situation correctly.
Besides, the last game in the playoffs showed you everything nodded, about the state of that team and QB, in case you missed it during the season.
Wake up. You are missed it and have had 2 years to think about why.
easy to do sitting on your couch and not having to deal with the media or the team or players who would of questioned why you took a step back after making the playoffs
you make it sound so easy maybe you should be a gm
I think both you and Schoen missed the point of how and why he got hired.
What Schoen secretly tried to do or wished for is irrelevant. The result is what matters.
Jones is Schoen's quarterback, period.
But they made the playoffs and he was stuck, easy for people to say sitting on their couch hey you could still tear it down, but he would of been killed by the media and no GM in theor right midn would of done that..
Now he has to go one more year with Jones and he has more freedom
Right, he fucked up.
Why are you arguing with people like me telling you the truth without the serum.
But they made the playoffs and he was stuck, easy for people to say sitting on their couch hey you could still tear it down, but he would of been killed by the media and no GM in theor right midn would of done that..
Now he has to go one more year with Jones and he has more freedom
Wait, so now you can't criticize because he made the easy choice to appease the masses? We pay GM's not to be popular but to win games. Plus, I doubt there was any real backlash if he sent Daniel packing or gave him the franchise tag.
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i am sure he would say he wish they didnt make the playoffs that first year, he would of had the freedom to strip down and build back up..
But they made the playoffs and he was stuck, easy for people to say sitting on their couch hey you could still tear it down, but he would of been killed by the media and no GM in theor right midn would of done that..
Now he has to go one more year with Jones and he has more freedom
Wait, so now you can't criticize because he made the easy choice to appease the masses? We pay GM's not to be popular but to win games. Plus, I doubt there was any real backlash if he sent Daniel packing or gave him the franchise tag.
Who said you cant criticize him? but be fair about it and add context
If Bullock makes the FG in Tennessee week 1 and the Carolina DB doesn't drop a pick six in week 2, everything is likely different right now.
If Bullock makes the FG in Tennessee week 1 and the Carolina DB doesn't drop a pick six in week 2, everything is likely different right now.
Remind you of another team in this town?
If Bullock makes the FG in Tennessee week 1 and the Carolina DB doesn't drop a pick six in week 2, everything is likely different right now.
Not the first time I’ve heard that getting to the playoffs in 2022 was detrimental to the rebuild. I’d love to be in the building that offseason after that Eagle game to see how they really felt about that year..
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In comment 16594814 nygiants16 said:
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i am sure he would say he wish they didnt make the playoffs that first year, he would of had the freedom to strip down and build back up..
But they made the playoffs and he was stuck, easy for people to say sitting on their couch hey you could still tear it down, but he would of been killed by the media and no GM in theor right midn would of done that..
Now he has to go one more year with Jones and he has more freedom
Wait, so now you can't criticize because he made the easy choice to appease the masses? We pay GM's not to be popular but to win games. Plus, I doubt there was any real backlash if he sent Daniel packing or gave him the franchise tag.
Who said you cant criticize him? but be fair about it and add context
Add context.. like using truth serum?
Schoen has said, multiple times, that the FT was a distinct possibility for Jones OR Barkley.
They fully intended to sign SB FIRST (see the offer at midseason that year), AND sign Jones to the FT.
Circumstances didn't work out, and they were forced to make the best deal they could with Jones, which is essentially a 2 year/ 84 million (I probably have that number wrong), with a reasonable out after 2 years.
So stop with the 160 million crap.
I believe Mara "really" wanted to sign Barkley, which put Schoen in a difficult decision. He navigated it as best he could.
and for "THE MIKE" worst contract? How about Golladay's or Soldiers?
As crappy as Jones is, he HAS at least done a little something. These two guys, didn't earn a plugged nickle!!
There's a league out there where actual good players and teams are actually competing for the title, and the Giants are hemming and hawing over two nobodies in Giants history like Jones and Barkley.
I was so happy when Barkley left. I was happier still that he went to Philly. The Barkley-related angst depicted on Hard Knocks was more proof that this organization has completely lost its way.
What Schoen secretly tried to do or wished for is irrelevant. The result is what matters.
Jones is Schoen's quarterback, period.
Can we stop with the "Schoen has been here 3 years, and the "Daniel Jones has been here 6 years" garbage, at least get your facts right.
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Jones has entered all 3 years as the starter, and during that time he got a $160M contract.
What Schoen secretly tried to do or wished for is irrelevant. The result is what matters.
Jones is Schoen's quarterback, period.
Can we stop with the "Schoen has been here 3 years, and the "Daniel Jones has been here 6 years" garbage, at least get your facts right.
I apologize - Schoen has had three offseasons. Better?
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In comment 16594816 Go Terps said:
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Jones has entered all 3 years as the starter, and during that time he got a $160M contract.
What Schoen secretly tried to do or wished for is irrelevant. The result is what matters.
Jones is Schoen's quarterback, period.
Can we stop with the "Schoen has been here 3 years, and the "Daniel Jones has been here 6 years" garbage, at least get your facts right.
I apologize - Schoen has had three offseasons. Better?
Yes, thank you
There's a league out there where actual good players and teams are actually competing for the title, and the Giants are hemming and hawing over two nobodies in Giants history like Jones and Barkley.
I was so happy when Barkley left. I was happier still that he went to Philly. The Barkley-related angst depicted on Hard Knocks was more proof that this organization has completely lost its way.
As we know now, popularity is a big deal with Mara.
And so is the boy scout image of the NYG brand. He wants NYG to be the Notre Dame of the NFL.
They sure are.
🤮
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When it comes to Hard Knocks, people saw what they wanted to see. Some of the takes are pretty comical.
They sure are.
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In comment 16594872 UberAlias said:
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When it comes to Hard Knocks, people saw what they wanted to see. Some of the takes are pretty comical.
They sure are.
Like recognizing the difference between reality tv, and reality, for starters.
So are we saying all of Hard Knocks was real, or was it all bullshit?
Believe me I hope it was all bullshit because it didn't paint a pretty picture.
<snip>
Sure but there's nothing factual being presented when pointing out that two previous QBs who were each superior to Jones did something that Jones will never do.
Here's some more education for you "something Jones will never do" is a Begging the Claim logical fallacy - an especially ludicrous one looking at facts. Facts are good. You should try them sometime.
Just a couple:
- It took Eli 7 years to exceed 24 TDs (Jones rookie year, in 12 games); 12 years on a per-game basis. TDs being a favorite measure of DJs anti-fan club.
- It took Eli 6 years to break 7 YPC (a bw favorite stat).
- Jones worst ever interception percentage though last season was 2.6% as a rookie. Eli's was substantially higher every season but one his first 10 years.
I'll stop there; facts mean nothing to your ilk, and I really don't feel like pumping up Jones. The off season is over. It's go time for him and the team. If he sucks, see ya. If he's good or better, fabulous. I'm not so foolish to make sweeping pronouncements about what he will or won't be - particularly given how glaringly stupid it looks in the context of the 2 Giants SB QBs careers.
Yes - but you're clearly suggesting I and others who are critical of the Giants were seeing what we want to see. So what are we taking as truth that was merely reality TV?
Exactly. "If the rule you followed led you to a QB room if Jones/Lock/DeVito, of what use was the rule?"
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In comment 16594608 HBart said:
<snip>
Sure but there's nothing factual being presented when pointing out that two previous QBs who were each superior to Jones did something that Jones will never do.
Here's some more education for you "something Jones will never do" is a Begging the Claim logical fallacy - an especially ludicrous one looking at facts. Facts are good. You should try them sometime.
Just a couple:
- It took Eli 7 years to exceed 24 TDs (Jones rookie year, in 12 games); 12 years on a per-game basis. TDs being a favorite measure of DJs anti-fan club.
- It took Eli 6 years to break 7 YPC (a bw favorite stat).
- Jones worst ever interception percentage though last season was 2.6% as a rookie. Eli's was substantially higher every season but one his first 10 years.
I'll stop there; facts mean nothing to your ilk, and I really don't feel like pumping up Jones. The off season is over. It's go time for him and the team. If he sucks, see ya. If he's good or better, fabulous. I'm not so foolish to make sweeping pronouncements about what he will or won't be - particularly given how glaringly stupid it looks in the context of the 2 Giants SB QBs careers.
Unless you are intentionally being intellectually dishonest, wouldn't you agree that it would be slightly more insightful to actually index Eli and DJ against the league averages during the respective reference years rather than against each other?
Comparing them directly against each other with no context or era-adjustment is misleading. Is it intentionally misleading or accidentally misleading?
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In comment 16594608 HBart said:
<snip>
Sure but there's nothing factual being presented when pointing out that two previous QBs who were each superior to Jones did something that Jones will never do.
Here's some more education for you "something Jones will never do" is a Begging the Claim logical fallacy - an especially ludicrous one looking at facts. Facts are good. You should try them sometime.
Just a couple:
- It took Eli 7 years to exceed 24 TDs (Jones rookie year, in 12 games); 12 years on a per-game basis. TDs being a favorite measure of DJs anti-fan club.
- It took Eli 6 years to break 7 YPC (a bw favorite stat).
- Jones worst ever interception percentage though last season was 2.6% as a rookie. Eli's was substantially higher every season but one his first 10 years.
I'll stop there; facts mean nothing to your ilk, and I really don't feel like pumping up Jones. The off season is over. It's go time for him and the team. If he sucks, see ya. If he's good or better, fabulous. I'm not so foolish to make sweeping pronouncements about what he will or won't be - particularly given how glaringly stupid it looks in the context of the 2 Giants SB QBs careers.
The facts are meaningless not because of some ilk I allegedly belong to, but because they are regarding a different player from the one we are discussing.
I'll stop there; facts mean nothing to your ilk, and I really don't feel like pumping up Jones. The off season is over. It's go time for him and the team. If he sucks, see ya. If he's good or better, fabulous. I'm not so foolish to make sweeping pronouncements about what he will or won't be - particularly given how glaringly stupid it looks in the context of the 2 Giants SB QBs careers.
In four of Eli's first five seasons, he threw for 24, 24, 23 and 21 TDs. And his first years of starting, the team always had a winning record. In aggregate, the team was 41-23. So, he was producing at his position to lead to wins. Right?
And in PPG the Giants were 3rd, 10th, 14th, and 8th. So, he was doing his job getting the team into the endzone.
Was anyone confusing Eli with Favre, bro Peyton, Brady, etc? No, but he was demonstrating he was a very competent, productive QB.
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I'll stop there; facts mean nothing to your ilk, and I really don't feel like pumping up Jones. The off season is over. It's go time for him and the team. If he sucks, see ya. If he's good or better, fabulous. I'm not so foolish to make sweeping pronouncements about what he will or won't be - particularly given how glaringly stupid it looks in the context of the 2 Giants SB QBs careers.
In four of Eli's first five seasons, he threw for 24, 24, 23 and 21 TDs. And his first years of starting, the team always had a winning record. In aggregate, the team was 41-23. So, he was producing at his position to lead to wins. Right?
And in PPG the Giants were 3rd, 10th, 14th, and 8th. So, he was doing his job getting the team into the endzone.
Was anyone confusing Eli with Favre, bro Peyton, Brady, etc? No, but he was demonstrating he was a very competent, productive QB.
You are comparing a different offensive philosophy and rulebook to today.
Phil Simms getting off to a slow start has nothing to do with Daniel Jones. Blaine Gabbert got off to a slow start too...why not cite him?
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In comment 16594608 HBart said:
<snip>
Sure but there's nothing factual being presented when pointing out that two previous QBs who were each superior to Jones did something that Jones will never do.
Here's some more education for you "something Jones will never do" is a Begging the Claim logical fallacy - an especially ludicrous one looking at facts. Facts are good. You should try them sometime.
Just a couple:
- It took Eli 7 years to exceed 24 TDs (Jones rookie year, in 12 games); 12 years on a per-game basis. TDs being a favorite measure of DJs anti-fan club.
Daniel Jones hasn't exceeded 24 TDs and only once, threw more than 15. He went from 24 to 11, 10, 15, 2. Eli threw 24 TDs in his second season and then didn't drop below 20 TDs until 2013 and then had a bounce back of 30TDs in 2014
Eli's first 5 years: 6, 24, 24, 23, 21
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I'll stop there; facts mean nothing to your ilk, and I really don't feel like pumping up Jones. The off season is over. It's go time for him and the team. If he sucks, see ya. If he's good or better, fabulous. I'm not so foolish to make sweeping pronouncements about what he will or won't be - particularly given how glaringly stupid it looks in the context of the 2 Giants SB QBs careers.
In four of Eli's first five seasons, he threw for 24, 24, 23 and 21 TDs. And his first years of starting, the team always had a winning record. In aggregate, the team was 41-23. So, he was producing at his position to lead to wins. Right?
And in PPG the Giants were 3rd, 10th, 14th, and 8th. So, he was doing his job getting the team into the endzone.
Was anyone confusing Eli with Favre, bro Peyton, Brady, etc? No, but he was demonstrating he was a very competent, productive QB.
Eli had an OL and receivers. Just sayin.
You are comparing a different offensive philosophy and rulebook to today.
I'm not. HBart is.
But as my super-high level analysis shows, Eli was a productive QB for NYG during his first five years.
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In comment 16594499 HBart said:
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In comment 16594494 christian said:
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LOL the starting quarterback of the team doesn't have a fan club? You'd expect that to be the case, no?
Maybe, but far less than you'd expect supposed fans to not reach, daily, for some tired, overplayed, myopic, in the past bullshit to bitch about and demean their starting QB.
I don't know, five years of middling play is something I should be fired up about?
It is not.
And knowing that the peak of the team is capped by that middling performance just about drains any enthusiasm I have for this season.
I'm already looking at next year's crop.
The Giants have 4 SB trophies because QBs with years of middling play raised their game at the right time.
Enjoy your disdain and wallow in your dissatisfaction at years gone by. Doesn't seem fun to me, but you do you.
Eli won the SB in his fourth season after making the playoffs in his two previous seasons. Simms won the SB in what is essentially his third full season as a starter with two playoffs appearances before that. We are in year 6 with Jones and nowhere close to a playoffs much less a SB. How long are you willing to wait for this DJ metamorphosis to miraculously to happen?
Phil Simms getting off to a slow start has nothing to do with Daniel Jones. Blaine Gabbert got off to a slow start too...why not cite him?
It is the same thinking that Evan Neal must not be a bust because Andrew Thomas struggled early on. One has nothing to do with the other and there are plenty of highly drafted tackles who started poorly and remained that way until they busted. It such a weak argument--all we can ever judge is the product before us and mention the sample size as a qualifier. Right now, Evan Neal stinks
Eli had an OL and receivers. Just sayin.
Ok.
What should we assume on the inverse? That Eli would be just as poor as Jones if he was QBing the team the last five seasons?
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Eli had an OL and receivers. Just sayin.
Ok.
What should we assume on the inverse? That Eli would be just as poor as Jones if he was QBing the team the last five seasons?
Just FTR Eli was 9-26 his final two years with pretty much the same supporting cast, at least early on. Just sayin'
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Yet passed on 3 potential studs while our QB room actually got worse this offseason.
And which "studs" are these?
He means the QBs the Giants passed on were studs in college.
Phil Simms getting off to a slow start has nothing to do with Daniel Jones. Blaine Gabbert got off to a slow start too...why not cite him?
It is amazing how some either don’t get this or just use this to comfort themselves about Jones. But I’m part of the non DJ ‘ilk’ so…🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️.
Just FTR Eli was 9-26 his final two years with pretty much the same supporting cast, at least early on. Just sayin'
Same supporting cast as what?
And Eli was 37 and 38 years of age his final two years. JFC.
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Simms also didn't win a playoff game at that point.
He did. Simms won a Wild Card game against the Rams in 84 and 'Skins in 85.
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It's irritating when comps are made to unrelated players or situations to make a point. The NFL has been around a century; you can find a comp to support any claim.
Phil Simms getting off to a slow start has nothing to do with Daniel Jones. Blaine Gabbert got off to a slow start too...why not cite him?
It is amazing how some either don’t get this or just use this to comfort themselves about Jones. But I’m part of the non DJ ‘ilk’ so…🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️.
You guys are that dense? A high drafted QB's career arc is unrelated to the one before him which is unrelated to one before that? And, since you brought it up, same with tackle.
Damn...that's like mental depleted uranium.
Also, if Scott Brunner could lead them to a win against the Eagles in 1981, I feel pretty confident in saying that Simms would have as well.
That is a very valid possibility.
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Just FTR Eli was 9-26 his final two years with pretty much the same supporting cast, at least early on. Just sayin'
Same supporting cast as what?
And Eli was 37 and 38 years of age his final two years. JFC.
Good deflection (hehehe). Actualy facts sucks, don't they.
And a JFC just for good measure.
Does that make them fans of him? I think so.
If we change "will produce" to "might produce", you can count me in. I don't think that makes me a "fan". I have no illusions as to how he's performed over 5 years. But that's all water under the bridge because he's got the job for this year. This season will define his future with the Giants. The OL is better, the receivers are better, an if he's injured, that's not an excuse, just an admission that he can't be counted on.
If that's the case they'd better win games in 2024.
But truthfully if they concluded that Jones/Lock/DeVito was their best option to win games in 2024 I wonder if they can chew gum and walk at the same time.
There is no excuse for paying $54M for this group of QBs in 2024.
3722 yards
64.5 completion percentage
24 TDs
13 INTs
7.0 Y/A
The Giants' passing game last year:
2886 yards
65.3 completion percentage
15 TDs
12 INTS
6.5 Y/A
I think it's a fair expectation, given the expenditures in the passing attack, to expect the 2024 passing production to far exceed the 2023 league averages shown above.
When they don't (and we know God damn well they won't), Jones won't be the guy to blame.
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... that Schoen and the Giants can walk and chew gum at the same time. Is it possible that the Giants are fully aware of what Jones' limitations are and would dearly add an elite QB if they could but are realists at the same time and realize a) that elite QBs are effing hard to find but that b) given the actual options they have had, Jones remains their best option to win games, especially if provided with a better supporting cast.
If that's the case they'd better win games in 2024.
But truthfully if they concluded that Jones/Lock/DeVito was their best option to win games in 2024 I wonder if they can chew gum and walk at the same time.
We know….you’ve told us 1,000 times
It’s like you have message board Tourette’s
Weird
There is no excuse for paying $54M for this group of QBs in 2024.
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Just FTR Eli was 9-26 his final two years with pretty much the same supporting cast, at least early on. Just sayin'
Same supporting cast as what?
And Eli was 37 and 38 years of age his final two years. JFC.
And, no offense to Eli Manning, but he was totally washed at that point, despite what one game the week before Christmas 2017 convinced John Mara and subsequently Dave Gettleman of.
I am certain Mbavaro is a dupe of a long time poster. gidie owes me a favor - how about outing this one?
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In comment 16594931 Go Terps said:
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It's irritating when comps are made to unrelated players or situations to make a point. The NFL has been around a century; you can find a comp to support any claim.
Phil Simms getting off to a slow start has nothing to do with Daniel Jones. Blaine Gabbert got off to a slow start too...why not cite him?
It is amazing how some either don’t get this or just use this to comfort themselves about Jones. But I’m part of the non DJ ‘ilk’ so…🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️.
You guys are that dense? A high drafted QB's career arc is unrelated to the one before him which is unrelated to one before that? And, since you brought it up, same with tackle.
Damn...that's like mental depleted uranium.
I guess that answers my question as far as whether your misleading and intellectually dishonest post earlier was intentional or not.
Name-calling is a lazier alternative than doing any sort of contextualization with era-adjusted indexing, right?
I am certain Mbavaro is a dupe of a long time poster. gidie owes me a favor - how about outing this one?
Nice spin and incorrect on calling me a dupe
Ask Eric if I’m a dupe if you are so confident
And that doesn’t change the fact that you do literally repeat the SAME exact thing day after day after day
What the F do you literally hope to accomplish by repeating the same thing on multiple threads literally every single day?
Bizarre behavior
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... that Schoen and the Giants can walk and chew gum at the same time. Is it possible that the Giants are fully aware of what Jones' limitations are and would dearly add an elite QB if they could but are realists at the same time and realize a) that elite QBs are effing hard to find but that b) given the actual options they have had, Jones remains their best option to win games, especially if provided with a better supporting cast.
If that's the case they'd better win games in 2024.
But truthfully if they concluded that Jones/Lock/DeVito was their best option to win games in 2024 I wonder if they can chew gum and walk at the same time.
There is no excuse for paying $54M for this group of QBs in 2024.
So basically if they win you are still going to say they are wrong and if they lose well obviously you will be here to tell us how you were right....
So either way you are right...Nice way for you to lay it out
I *think* the purpose of a comparative argument is to glean probability. Something like: given the various challenges Simms, Manning, and Jones faced early in their career, does that the first two won a Super Bowl indicate there is a chance Jones will?
I think there is a non-zero chance Jones wins a Super Bowl in his career. Probably somewhere less than .01%.
The only empirical tether between the three is they are quarterbacks and they play for the Giants. Completely different era, completely different league, completely different rules, completely different roster, and completely different staff.
And there is how Simms and Manning overcame their challenges. Simms came in 2nd in OROY voting and then had a comedy of injuries. Manning's ceiling was a good regular season quarterback who blossomed into a great quarterback against the best teams in 2007, including arguably the best team ever.
So now let's factor that in if the comparables are relevant to the argument. What is the probability Jones markedly improves his durability, is consistently a good regular quarterback, and elevates his game to greatness throughout 4 playoff games?
elite QBs are hard to find which is why the giants should start trying to find one.
What everyone is disagreeing with is whether that is true.
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In comment 16594936 MOOPS said:
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Eli had an OL and receivers. Just sayin.
Ok.
What should we assume on the inverse? That Eli would be just as poor as Jones if he was QBing the team the last five seasons?
Just FTR Eli was 9-26 his final two years with pretty much the same supporting cast, at least early on. Just sayin'
And the giants waited too long to replace him
elite QBs are hard to find which is why the giants should start trying to find one.
There is no guarantee once the Giants move on from Jones there will be a QB solution waiting for them.
That doesn't dismiss the value of the pass targets, the run game, or the line. But it is the most important variable.
And if Nix, Penix, or JJM develop into a championship contender, and the Giants are still sitting on their dicks -- this says something about Daboll or Schoen.
His age/ injuries certainty factor in, but from a pure football point the best QB on the roster last year is now a Jet. They somehow downgraded the QB position from last year.
The truth is there is no DJ fan club here or anywhere. However, there are Giants' fans who live in the real world who are cheering fr him because he's the Giants QB this year. The whole DJFC is supposed to be an insult made up and peddled by the likes of the crowd that has once again taken over yet another thread with their incessant whining and bleating who are like little pampered princes mad because they didn't get their way.
That's not a surprising or sensibility offending position, if defended with evidence and facts.
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He did. Simms won a Wild Card game against the Rams in 84 and 'Skins in 85.
Also, if Scott Brunner could lead them to a win against the Eagles in 1981, I feel pretty confident in saying that Simms would have as well.
I'm quite certain Scott Brunner couldn't lead the Giants to the playoff win against Minnesota.
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and hate club thing is moronic. The few posters who seem to use it the most don't even understand the QB position or offensive football very much.
The truth is there is no DJ fan club here or anywhere. However, there are Giants' fans who live in the real world who are cheering fr him because he's the Giants QB this year. The whole DJFC is supposed to be an insult made up and peddled by the likes of the crowd that has once again taken over yet another thread with their incessant whining and bleating who are like little pampered princes mad because they didn't get their way.
The truth is there was and still is. Before it was because they blindly believed in anything NY Giants, so Jones was it.
Then when he struggled it was just blame the coaches, supporting cast or injuries. Anything other than realize and change your mind that you possibly could ever be wrong that he just sucks at QB.
Then he got paid and that was obviously a big mistake, so it became there weee no other options to push the mistake further down the road.
Now we are 6 years in and now it has become no one still is really DJ supporter posting here. Yet they are just waiting for Giants to finally like someone else better. But yet Schoen can’t get there so you all just wait. And wait.
However, it is same group that just can’t wait for DJ to have a 2td-200 yard game to raise the victory flag. Revenge Tour? Not that it something special in 2024 for a QB, but because it is the closest they can come to and say “see, I told you he was good”.
Good lord.
The Giants OL has not been good. It has not been a starting caliber OL. This is obviously true. There are no arguments about this because there is nobody to argue with. There is no OL fan club.
The Giants QB has not been good. He is not a starting caliber QB. There are massive arguments about it. Because the bad QB has dedicated fans.
And the really catastrophic thing about it for people who care about the Giants being good is that we do try to improve the OL. We do not try to improve at QB.
And it's frustrating. Is it repetitive? Sure. But this has never happened. There has not been a fan base subjected to a QB as bad as Jones being handed the starting position for 6 straight years this century. Yeah, it's going to get people worked up.
That’s fair. But isn’t it also fair to not chase that qb at the expense of a talent like Nabers?
I don’t get the confusion. Far too many here act like there are half dozen ready made pro qbs in every draft. There aren’t and they sure as fuck aren’t after round 2. So you’re drafting the next tannenhill instead of nabers. You’re drafting the next DANIEL JONES instead of Thibs. You’re drafting the next Sam darnold instead of Nubin. Or maybe, maybe the next Dak which would be great.
And you know how it gets easier and easier to draft the next Dak or purdy or Romo or hurts??? By building a roster that will nurture and enable that QB. Just a theory. Call me crazy. It’s what I believe. The teams that steal that qb usually have a kick ass roster in place.
Doesn’t mean I am bypassing the QB if I can get one. Of course not. But I do think you have better odds at finding and developing a good QB if the roster is good around them. And I think you can fuck up a QB with a bad roster. I just think the QB development plan is not so simple. You don’t just chase QBs and then throw them away 5-6-7 weeks in and move to the next guy. It’s a process. It takes time. Eli manning needed time. Phil simms needed even more time than Eli. This isn’t about Daniel Jones. This is about not picking the wrong qb and wasting more time and worse, missing out on a HOF talent in Nabers. If the giants had the choice of Caleb Williams, Maye or Daniels or Nabers that’s another story. They take the qb. They had to choose between nabers and 2-3 lesser qb talents. You trust your scouts and you bypass the qbs because the consensus is they aren’t that good. It’s a cliché, but you don’t draft for need, at least not always, you draft talent.
Doesn’t mean I am bypassing the QB if I can get one. Of course not. But I do think you have better odds at finding and developing a good QB if the roster is good around them. And I think you can fuck up a QB with a bad roster. I just think the QB development plan is not so simple. You don’t just chase QBs and then throw them away 5-6-7 weeks in and move to the next guy. It’s a process. It takes time. Eli manning needed time. Phil simms needed even more time than Eli. This isn’t about Daniel Jones. This is about not picking the wrong qb and wasting more time and worse, missing out on a HOF talent in Nabers. If the giants had the choice of Caleb Williams, Maye or Daniels or Nabers that’s another story. They take the qb. They had to choose between nabers and 2-3 lesser qb talents. You trust your scouts and you bypass the qbs because the consensus is they aren’t that good. It’s a cliché, but you don’t draft for need, at least not always, you draft talent.
Hypothetically let's say NYG have the #1 pick next year (yes I know realistically they won't)
Do you take a QB who may have a lower grade than the top 3 from this year or a WR who may be be graded higher than Nabers?
Jamarcus Russell was always going to fail, imo. Darnold, Rosen, Fields, Zack Wilson all failed quickly.
One of the best head coaches in the best built environment for success in pro football quit on Trey Lance immediately. Belichick got it wrong with Mac Jones. Vrabel got it wrong with Malik Willis.
Some guys need time. Not all of them. sometimes they fail on their own merit because they dont have it. We convince ourselves with hope that patience is logical and prudent. Coaches do it too. And sometimes its just optimism instead of pragmatism because none of this is exact or scientific.
Doesn’t mean I am bypassing the QB if I can get one. Of course not. But I do think you have better odds at finding and developing a good QB if the roster is good around them. And I think you can fuck up a QB with a bad roster. I just think the QB development plan is not so simple. You don’t just chase QBs and then throw them away 5-6-7 weeks in and move to the next guy. It’s a process. It takes time. Eli manning needed time. Phil simms needed even more time than Eli. This isn’t about Daniel Jones. This is about not picking the wrong qb and wasting more time and worse, missing out on a HOF talent in Nabers. If the giants had the choice of Caleb Williams, Maye or Daniels or Nabers that’s another story. They take the qb. They had to choose between nabers and 2-3 lesser qb talents. You trust your scouts and you bypass the qbs because the consensus is they aren’t that good. It’s a cliché, but you don’t draft for need, at least not always, you draft talent.
Bingo!
Steve Young and Steve Bono both had success on an already established good team. We can then go over to the Jaguars QB's under Coughlin. Even Mahomes walked on to a team with two hall of fame talents in Kelce and Hill.
So imagine what his reaction would be if he learned that a lousy QB like Daniel Jones was the roadblock to getting a QB.
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Yet passed on 3 potential studs while our QB room actually got worse this offseason.
And which "studs" are these?
Clearly I'm talking about Penix, Nix and McCarthy. Notice too, my use of the word potential so I'm recognizing there's no guarantee. But a shot worth taking if you're NYG, no? These guys went 2, 4 and 6 spots after we selected. The league feels they are potential studs as well.
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And I'll keep telling you as long as the Giants are stupid enough to keep trotting this bullshit out.
I am certain Mbavaro is a dupe of a long time poster. gidie owes me a favor - how about outing this one?
Nice spin and incorrect on calling me a dupe
Ask Eric if I’m a dupe if you are so confident
And that doesn’t change the fact that you do literally repeat the SAME exact thing day after day after day
What the F do you literally hope to accomplish by repeating the same thing on multiple threads literally every single day?
Bizarre behavior
I assume you intend this response for posters like HBart and Terps, since both of them say the exact same thing over and over again on all DJ threads?
Or does it not bother you when HBart does it because you view his posts as being logical arguments since you agree with them?
It's ok to be biased - everyone is to a degree. But there are no Dj threads on this board where Terps is posting over and over again and nobody is arguing with him. And it is not different people arguing with him.
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Landed on teams that were already good. Even going back to Dallas and Danny white. White was a 3rd round pick. He went on to have a damn good career even if he he never won a Super Bowl. He was drafted by a good team. This is just a theory I’m not trying to say you’re wrong I’m right. I wanna learn the secret sauce to the NFL and quarterback development, or at least try to. I feel like it’s the biggest mystery in pro sports and fans act like they know so much yet dozens of NFL GMs who know the game inside and out fail miserably at QB evaluating. Why? I think it’s timing more than anything else. You can’t tell me all these QBs coming out of college over the years, literally dozens and dozens of qbs that failed were all just bad football players who would fail no matter what or sucked, even in a vacuum. There’s something else going on. Something deeper. It’s timing. You can’t tell me that if the Falcons draft Joe Montana in 1979 he goes on to have the same career or even a quarter of the same career. You just can’t tell me that, there’s too many variables.
Doesn’t mean I am bypassing the QB if I can get one. Of course not. But I do think you have better odds at finding and developing a good QB if the roster is good around them. And I think you can fuck up a QB with a bad roster. I just think the QB development plan is not so simple. You don’t just chase QBs and then throw them away 5-6-7 weeks in and move to the next guy. It’s a process. It takes time. Eli manning needed time. Phil simms needed even more time than Eli. This isn’t about Daniel Jones. This is about not picking the wrong qb and wasting more time and worse, missing out on a HOF talent in Nabers. If the giants had the choice of Caleb Williams, Maye or Daniels or Nabers that’s another story. They take the qb. They had to choose between nabers and 2-3 lesser qb talents. You trust your scouts and you bypass the qbs because the consensus is they aren’t that good. It’s a cliché, but you don’t draft for need, at least not always, you draft talent.
Hypothetically let's say NYG have the #1 pick next year (yes I know realistically they won't)
Do you take a QB who may have a lower grade than the top 3 from this year or a WR who may be be graded higher than Nabers?
Depends — if the qb is highly rated enough where you think he can be the difference maker here you take him. I definitely think you should account for need and positional value at times but it depends on how high you rate that qb. Are we choosing between a qb prospect rated 85 and a DE rated 89? Is that QB “only” an 82?
If the qb is one you love you take him even if the other player is rated higher, but there’s exceptions. Nabers at 91 vs JJM or Nix at an 80 is tough to swallow especially if the staff might have jones at around a 76. Who knows but yes I’d take the qb if he was good enough. Im not that rigid and I don’t think most GMs are.
So imagine what his reaction would be if he learned that a lousy QB like Daniel Jones was the roadblock to getting a QB.
There’s no road block In jones. The roadblock is availability and it’s been 3 drafts. One of which had no qbs in the top 10 (22) none good enough in the bottom 20s (23) and this last one which is really the only one you lose your mind over, and it’s been covered. Im not going back n forth. Have a good day.
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Landed on teams that were already good. Even going back to Dallas and Danny white. White was a 3rd round pick. He went on to have a damn good career even if he he never won a Super Bowl. He was drafted by a good team. This is just a theory I’m not trying to say you’re wrong I’m right. I wanna learn the secret sauce to the NFL and quarterback development, or at least try to. I feel like it’s the biggest mystery in pro sports and fans act like they know so much yet dozens of NFL GMs who know the game inside and out fail miserably at QB evaluating. Why? I think it’s timing more than anything else. You can’t tell me all these QBs coming out of college over the years, literally dozens and dozens of qbs that failed were all just bad football players who would fail no matter what or sucked, even in a vacuum. There’s something else going on. Something deeper. It’s timing. You can’t tell me that if the Falcons draft Joe Montana in 1979 he goes on to have the same career or even a quarter of the same career. You just can’t tell me that, there’s too many variables.
Doesn’t mean I am bypassing the QB if I can get one. Of course not. But I do think you have better odds at finding and developing a good QB if the roster is good around them. And I think you can fuck up a QB with a bad roster. I just think the QB development plan is not so simple. You don’t just chase QBs and then throw them away 5-6-7 weeks in and move to the next guy. It’s a process. It takes time. Eli manning needed time. Phil simms needed even more time than Eli. This isn’t about Daniel Jones. This is about not picking the wrong qb and wasting more time and worse, missing out on a HOF talent in Nabers. If the giants had the choice of Caleb Williams, Maye or Daniels or Nabers that’s another story. They take the qb. They had to choose between nabers and 2-3 lesser qb talents. You trust your scouts and you bypass the qbs because the consensus is they aren’t that good. It’s a cliché, but you don’t draft for need, at least not always, you draft talent.
Bingo!
Steve Young and Steve Bono both had success on an already established good team. We can then go over to the Jaguars QB's under Coughlin. Even Mahomes walked on to a team with two hall of fame talents in Kelce and Hill.
Sure, but citing previous examples of 2nd and third day QBs excelling isn't really very comforting to me given that the Giants don't currently afford other QBs an opportunity to come out of nowhere and surprise.
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Just FTR Eli was 9-26 his final two years with pretty much the same supporting cast, at least early on. Just sayin'
Same supporting cast as what?
And Eli was 37 and 38 years of age his final two years. JFC.
Looking back, that OL played as well or better than anything DJ has had and Cruz was still as good as any WR DJ has played with. That’s obviously not proof that DJ can be good on a decent roster but his bad stats and W/L record is something only a couple QBs could have dramatically improved on, and even so I’m not sure any of them could be successful.
What numbers are you basing that on? Because there's no actual data here.
If we're talking pure counting statistics, some of the noise there is that Jones has gotten 60 starts based largely on his draft position, whereas someone drafted later in the draft would not have that luxury.
Not to mention your own personal bias.
The first 3-4 seasons were rough and inconsistent. Changes were made at QB coach and coordinator along the way, for a top prospect with high-level prep and access to the best pre-NFL experience possible.
I 100% believe that in a post-2004 NFL, Eli gets drafted to a team that builds the offense around his skillset and comfort level rather than trying to fit him into the coach's vision, which was just the way things were always done in the NFL up until the last 20 years or so and I imagine a lot of the bumps in the road level out by not having to learn him into a difficult, mistake-prone, and complicated offense.
List the guys you said would be an upgrade to Jones. And the ones who would not.
Thanks in advance.
The first 3-4 seasons were rough and inconsistent. Changes were made at QB coach and coordinator along the way, for a top prospect with high-level prep and access to the best pre-NFL experience possible.
I 100% believe that in a post-2004 NFL, Eli gets drafted to a team that builds the offense around his skillset and comfort level rather than trying to fit him into the coach's vision, which was just the way things were always done in the NFL up until the last 20 years or so and I imagine a lot of the bumps in the road level out by not having to learn him into a difficult, mistake-prone, and complicated offense.
Here is where I will take exception. Eli's "rough start" is way over played on BBI and in general. Was he Peyton or Brady? No, but his only true rough start was when he went in his Rookie year. After that rookie year he was putting up good numbers. The bigger problem was expectation. People saw him as Peyton's brother and kept expecting him to put up Peyton numbers and that was never going to be him. People forget that during their careers Ben's numbers and his were right around the same. The only big difference is Eli was more of a gunslinger and threw more picks.
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since someone brought up Eli needing time to develop, is trying to determine *why* he needed time.
The first 3-4 seasons were rough and inconsistent. Changes were made at QB coach and coordinator along the way, for a top prospect with high-level prep and access to the best pre-NFL experience possible.
I 100% believe that in a post-2004 NFL, Eli gets drafted to a team that builds the offense around his skillset and comfort level rather than trying to fit him into the coach's vision, which was just the way things were always done in the NFL up until the last 20 years or so and I imagine a lot of the bumps in the road level out by not having to learn him into a difficult, mistake-prone, and complicated offense.
Here is where I will take exception. Eli's "rough start" is way over played on BBI and in general. Was he Peyton or Brady? No, but his only true rough start was when he went in his Rookie year. After that rookie year he was putting up good numbers. The bigger problem was expectation. People saw him as Peyton's brother and kept expecting him to put up Peyton numbers and that was never going to be him. People forget that during their careers Ben's numbers and his were right around the same. The only big difference is Eli was more of a gunslinger and threw more picks.
Yes. We don't have a ton of advanced stats tracking back to the 00s, but Football Outsiders has the DYAR metric which had Eli as around league average in 2005 and 2006. He was terrible in DYAR in 2007 but obviously made that irrelevant with his playoff run, then in 2008 he was top-10 in that metric.
Outside of 2022, Jones's resume in this area simply does not compare.
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In comment 16594983 compton said:
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He did. Simms won a Wild Card game against the Rams in 84 and 'Skins in 85.
Also, if Scott Brunner could lead them to a win against the Eagles in 1981, I feel pretty confident in saying that Simms would have as well.
I'm quite certain Scott Brunner couldn't lead the Giants to the playoff win against Minnesota.
I'm quite certain Tim Tebow once beat the Steelers (who had the #1 scoring defense in the NFL that year) in the playoffs, and I'm also quite certain that Blake Bortles once reached the AFC Championship Game.
I wouldn't be quite so adamant about a single playoff victory representing a divining rod for QB greatness, or ruling out a crappy QB from being able to produce a single outlier playoff victory tucked into an otherwise mediocre career resume.
With Eli, he could suck ass for a game, a half, a month, and the coke out for a 2 minute drive and Absolutely sling it. Full command of the offense, making aggressive, difficult throws all over the field, going for the kill. Against any team, any defense, making any throw. And he could do it for longer periods too.
That is not Jones. It's not him at all. In fact, it's pretty close to the opposite of Jones. Eli was a high variance QB with a sky high ceiling. That is not Jones at all.
With Eli, he could suck ass for a game, a half, a month, and the coke out for a 2 minute drive and Absolutely sling it. Full command of the offense, making aggressive, difficult throws all over the field, going for the kill. Against any team, any defense, making any throw. And he could do it for longer periods too.
The 2007 game against the Bears is my favorite example of this. Eli comes off the 4 int Vikings game, throws another 2 ints to start the Bears game and looks bad. Giants are down 16-7 entering the 4th, then all of the sudden Eli starts making a bunch of clutch throws the last two drives for the win.
That was Eli even during the middle of his worst statistical season prior to 2013; he always had the big-time throw gene.
I wouldn't be quite so adamant about a single playoff victory representing a divining rod for QB greatness, or ruling out a crappy QB from being able to produce a single outlier playoff victory tucked into an otherwise mediocre career resume.
The list of QBs with one playoff win isn't a "who's who" it's a "who cares?"
Glenn Presnell* 1 0 1.000 Lions 1935
Irv Comp * 1 0 1.000 Packers 1944 [88]
Paul Christman 1 0 1.000 Cardinals 1947 [89]
Bill Wade 1 0 1.000 Bears ^1963
Gifford Nielsen 1 0 1.000 Oilers
John Wolford 1 0 1.000 Rams Carl Brumbaugh* 1 1 .500 Bears ^1933
Babe Parilli 1 1 .500 Patriots
Lynn Dickey 1 1 .500 Packers
Pat Ryan 1 1 .500 Jets
Steve Fuller 1 1 .500 Bears
Mark Malone 1 1 .500 Steelers [90]
Scott Brunner 1 1 .500 Giants
Dieter Brock 1 1 .500 Rams
Bubby Brister 1 1 .500 Steelers [91]
Chris Miller 1 1 .500 Falcons [92]
Steve Beuerlein 1 1 .500 Cowboys
Rodney Peete 1 1 .500 Eagles
Tommy Maddox 1 1 .500 Steelers [93]
Aaron Brooks 1 1 .500 Saints [94]
David Garrard 1 1 .500 Jaguars [95]
Tim Tebow 1 1 .500 Broncos [96]
Jay Cutler 1 1 .500 Bears
T. J. Yates 1 1 .500 Texans [97]
Matt Schaub 1 1 .500 Texans [98]
Brock Osweiler 1 1 .500 Texans [99]
Marcus Mariota 1 1 .500 Titans [100]
Case Keenum 1 1 .500 Vikings [101]
Trevor Lawrence 1 1 .500 Jaguars
Daniel Jones 1 1 .500 Giants
C. J. Stroud 1 1 .500 Texans
Jordan Love 1 1 .500 Packers 150 Frank Ryan 1 2 .333 Browns ^1964
James Harris 1 2 .333 Rams
Bob Lee 1 2 .333 Vikings
Erik Kramer 1 2 .333 Lions
Steve Walsh 1 2 .333 Saints (0–1)Bears(1–1) [103]
Jeff George 1 2 .333 Falcons (0–1)
Vikings (1–1) [104]
Elvis Grbac 1 2 .333 Chiefs (0–1)
Ravens (1–1) [105]
Jay Fiedler 1 2 .333 Dolphins
Shaun King 1 2 .333 Buccaneers
Marc Bulger 1 2 .333 Rams [106]
Deshaun Watson 1 2 .333 Texans [107]
161 Don Meredith 1 3 .250 Cowboys
Joe Ferguson 1 3 .250 Bills
Steve Bartkowski 1 3 .250 Falcons
Steve DeBerg 1 3 .250 Broncos (0–1)
Chiefs (1–2) [108]
Carson Palmer 1 3 .250 Bengals (0–2)
Cardinals (1–1) [109]
Kirk Cousins 1 3 .250 Redskins (0–1)
Vikings (1–2)
Don't even get me started on Palmer. Was? He was elite in 2015.
He was gonna be a HOF QB if he didn't get hurt, though. I will die on this hill.
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since someone brought up Eli needing time to develop, is trying to determine *why* he needed time.
The first 3-4 seasons were rough and inconsistent. Changes were made at QB coach and coordinator along the way, for a top prospect with high-level prep and access to the best pre-NFL experience possible.
I 100% believe that in a post-2004 NFL, Eli gets drafted to a team that builds the offense around his skillset and comfort level rather than trying to fit him into the coach's vision, which was just the way things were always done in the NFL up until the last 20 years or so and I imagine a lot of the bumps in the road level out by not having to learn him into a difficult, mistake-prone, and complicated offense.
Here is where I will take exception. Eli's "rough start" is way over played on BBI and in general. Was he Peyton or Brady? No, but his only true rough start was when he went in his Rookie year. After that rookie year he was putting up good numbers. The bigger problem was expectation. People saw him as Peyton's brother and kept expecting him to put up Peyton numbers and that was never going to be him. People forget that during their careers Ben's numbers and his were right around the same. The only big difference is Eli was more of a gunslinger and threw more picks.
Eli managed to have some very impressive performances his rookie year too, particularly against the Steelers. He then led that great comeback against the Broncos in year two.
People act like his first few seasons were Jamarcus Russell caliber.
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In comment 16595826 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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since someone brought up Eli needing time to develop, is trying to determine *why* he needed time.
The first 3-4 seasons were rough and inconsistent. Changes were made at QB coach and coordinator along the way, for a top prospect with high-level prep and access to the best pre-NFL experience possible.
I 100% believe that in a post-2004 NFL, Eli gets drafted to a team that builds the offense around his skillset and comfort level rather than trying to fit him into the coach's vision, which was just the way things were always done in the NFL up until the last 20 years or so and I imagine a lot of the bumps in the road level out by not having to learn him into a difficult, mistake-prone, and complicated offense.
Here is where I will take exception. Eli's "rough start" is way over played on BBI and in general. Was he Peyton or Brady? No, but his only true rough start was when he went in his Rookie year. After that rookie year he was putting up good numbers. The bigger problem was expectation. People saw him as Peyton's brother and kept expecting him to put up Peyton numbers and that was never going to be him. People forget that during their careers Ben's numbers and his were right around the same. The only big difference is Eli was more of a gunslinger and threw more picks.
Eli managed to have some very impressive performances his rookie year too, particularly against the Steelers. He then led that great comeback against the Broncos in year two.
People act like his first few seasons were Jamarcus Russell caliber.
I think Eli was largely who he was by his second season: a streaky player capable of playing like the best in the league in spurts who made some mind numbingly stupid plays, but consistently within the 8-12 range despite the intraseason variation. Some outliers like 2011 to the positive and 2013 to the negative, obviously.
Eli managed to have some very impressive performances his rookie year too, particularly against the Steelers. He then led that great comeback against the Broncos in year two.
People act like his first few seasons were Jamarcus Russell caliber.
I find it to be some incredible revisionist history and goalpost moving.
People definitely flipped out after the 4 int Minnesota game in 2007. That's because it looked like Eli was actually regressing during that season from decent but inconsistent 2005 and 2006 campaigns. There was an actual standard of play he set that he was failing to live up to, whereas with Jones - prior to 2022 - the only standard we had were a couple of 4 TD games in his rookie season.
Nevermind that by the time Eli was entering his 6th season like Jones, he was a top-ten QB in 2008 and had won a SB the year prior.
Hell, he was elite in 2005. He completed a long bomb on the very play in which he was injured.
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He was elite in 2015.
Hell, he was elite in 2005. He completed a long bomb on the very play in which he was injured.
I wasn't born then so I don't remember.
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Eli managed to have some very impressive performances his rookie year too, particularly against the Steelers. He then led that great comeback against the Broncos in year two.
People act like his first few seasons were Jamarcus Russell caliber.
I find it to be some incredible revisionist history and goalpost moving.
People definitely flipped out after the 4 int Minnesota game in 2007. That's because it looked like Eli was actually regressing during that season from decent but inconsistent 2005 and 2006 campaigns. There was an actual standard of play he set that he was failing to live up to, whereas with Jones - prior to 2022 - the only standard we had were a couple of 4 TD games in his rookie season.
Nevermind that by the time Eli was entering his 6th season like Jones, he was a top-ten QB in 2008 and had won a SB the year prior.
I can't speak for everyone, but not revisionist for me at all. In his second year I was one of about two or three people on BBI that defended Eli, often taking a lot of crap for it.