I know how much he loves the Giants organzation, but he will no doubt want alot of power and I just dont see the Giants willing to give one person that much authority over the operation
and has not done well picking talent in years. Hes a master of maximizing what he has i will give him that. This defense would play much more consistently.
Dallas or Buffalo would be enticing spots if I were BB; if one or both teams disappoint this year.
Giants and getting a rookie might take awhile. But, you never know. People getting to the finish line have very personal motivations imo.
after three seasons so you can hire a 73 year old guy to take over for as long as it takes him to claim the the NFL record for career wins, you gotta do it.
Of course Belichick was a terrible GM at the end, but if Mara is going to dump both Schoen and Daboll to go after Belichick, the chances are high it will wind up being both jobs.
Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, but that's the end way of the Giants these days.
but BB is still one of the greatest defensive minds of all-time. I could see it working if he was HC focusing on defense, with bright/talented minds as GM & OC.
But if he really just wanted to break the wins record, why in the world would he come here? It would have to be a labor of love.
Hope not. Love the Bells, but his time has passed.
You get Belichick, you get the lesser Belichickians and the rest of his entourage along with him. He didn't build anything in NE after Brady left and ended his tenure on a 4-13 low note.
73 years old to START the next rebuild when the Belichick name has lost it's luster? Pass.
Handing over the franchise to a 70+ year old who has a very questionable record as a GM is a bad, bad idea. I’m 70+ and there is no way i could hand a 24/7/365 job like that much less two jobs. I’m hoping Dallas gets him.
why we're supposed to factor in Belichick's success as a DC with the Giants 35 years ago into the logic of hiring him as a HC now.
At some point, you lose your fastball. Maybe BB needed a year off to recharge his batteries and freshen up his perspective. But the odds are, he's simply over the hill. And it seems like the principle benefit of hiring him will be to make fans (especially lifers) feel better about the state of the franchise being in the dumper.
but I think too many are sleeping on why BB wants to get back into coaching. He wants Shula’s record and he wants a SB win without Brady, neither of which is happening here any time soon. He’s not coming her for a rebuild, unless there are no other offers.
PFO, I’d be on that in a hot minute. Yeah, yeah, he doesn’t have a great track record acquiring talent, but would you prefer one of Mara’s lackeys? Kevin. Abrams, anyone?
Sack Daboll during this season and bring BB here now to set up for next season.
It's the only way to generate any sort of hope for the fans this season. This season seems to be shot already, and we'll have to watch a horrible QB ruin the hopes for the fans again.
if the they clean house i dont see how he's not the odds on favorite
mara is very much swayed by public opinion. that's why he went the schoen/daboll route when he preferred flores even before schoen.
belichick is the easy button. if this thing implodes id be surprised if he doesnt press it.
I'm sure nostalgia will roll in like a hurricane if we get to the point. But, again, what's the strategy at QB for a 73-year-old HC chasing big trophies?
The solution isn't currently on the roster. Do we trust BB to draft one? And the free agency market, especially with Dak now out, isn't a bumper crop in 2025...
I just think he would be looking to do what Brady did. Find a ready-to-win-now team.
RE: RE: if the they clean house i dont see how he's not the odds on favorite
mara is very much swayed by public opinion. that's why he went the schoen/daboll route when he preferred flores even before schoen.
belichick is the easy button. if this thing implodes id be surprised if he doesnt press it.
I'm sure nostalgia will roll in like a hurricane if we get to the point. But, again, what's the strategy at QB for a 73-year-old HC chasing big trophies?
The solution isn't currently on the roster. Do we trust BB to draft one? And the free agency market, especially with Dak now out, isn't a bumper crop in 2025...
I just think he would be looking to do what Brady did. Find a ready-to-win-now team.
I would probably trust him to draft a QB. Not sure I'd trust him to develop that guy.
mara is very much swayed by public opinion. that's why he went the schoen/daboll route when he preferred flores even before schoen.
belichick is the easy button. if this thing implodes id be surprised if he doesnt press it.
I'm sure nostalgia will roll in like a hurricane if we get to the point. But, again, what's the strategy at QB for a 73-year-old HC chasing big trophies?
The solution isn't currently on the roster. Do we trust BB to draft one? And the free agency market, especially with Dak now out, isn't a bumper crop in 2025...
I just think he would be looking to do what Brady did. Find a ready-to-win-now team.
he may. ive long expected him to land in dallas when mccarthy inevitably craps out again. but bb saw last year, there are no givens. he went for jobs and didnt get them. if an owner he respected offered him total control before a better job is open, would he pass on it? he learned last year unlike brady he's not assured to find what he wants.
re the second question do i trust BB to find the next QB? no i dont. but i also dont have the name of someone id trust more than him either, so that's kind of a useless question. mcvay and reid are probably the 2 guys id trust to do that and they arent available.
so im willing to settle for a guy who will bring in a lot of winning traits, a winning attitude, at minimum probably get the defense back into the top 10 consistently, and hopefully find the next versions of caserio, mayo, vrabel, bob, types to keep the organization moving in the right direction after he hopefully gets things back on track.
i would hope he is coming in with an offensive plan built around finding a way to steal from what has worked so well with the shanahan/mcvay guys. ryans, mcdaniel, koc, etc.
1) I still think BB can coach.
2) He LOVES the Giants organization. Watch his 'Football Life' or the 'Two Bills' 30 for 30. It is so obvious how much love he has for the franchise.
3) I think the idea of BB 'returning home' is strong with Mara.
Also, bringing in BB brings immediate credibility to the Giant. Immediate. He's the HC GOAT. As long as he's not playing GM too-I still think BB the GM killed BB the HC in Foxoboro-I'm fine with bringing him on. & yes, I'd like to talk to him about the succession plan post him because he's no spring chicken obviously.
RE: RE: if the they clean house i dont see how he's not the odds on favorite
mara is very much swayed by public opinion. that's why he went the schoen/daboll route when he preferred flores even before schoen.
belichick is the easy button. if this thing implodes id be surprised if he doesnt press it.
I'm sure nostalgia will roll in like a hurricane if we get to the point. But, again, what's the strategy at QB for a 73-year-old HC chasing big trophies?
The solution isn't currently on the roster. Do we trust BB to draft one? And the free agency market, especially with Dak now out, isn't a bumper crop in 2025...
I just think he would be looking to do what Brady did. Find a ready-to-win-now team.
To me the strategy needs to move away from building everything around the QB. Just because they move on from Jones doesn't mean QB is solved. (And let's see them move on from Jones first before we assume anything, by the way)
If I'm running the Giants I try to get back to the roots of the two good eras most of us have seen: focus on building a big, powerful team dominated by OL and DL.
This organization needs an overarching goal statement, so how about something I heard Phil Simms say to Chris Russo last fall:
Fast teams slow down late in the season. Big teams don't get smaller.
Build a big strong team that will be able to compete in the northeast in December and January. Focus prime resources (Day 1 and 2 picks, prime FA money) on OL and DL who are big and powerful by NFL standards. The Giants' two best players fit this description, one on each side of the line. Build around them with more people like them. All along keep an eye open for a QB, but do it like Pittsburgh - stay cheap until it's time not to be. Treat the position like an actual meritocracy. Draft one every year, but don't crown anyone.
To go along with this, hire a head coach who knows something about line play. Possible current coordinators off the top of my head include Arthur Smith, Vic Fangio, and Greg Roman; I'm sure there are others that make sense.
Of all the dumb shit said on Hard Knocks there was one moment of clarity from, of all people, Tim Mccdonell: what is our identity?
This would be a start.
does anyone remember what parcells did for dallas?
he'd been out of coaching for 3-4 years at that point. he was younger than belichick now but functionally im not sure there was a big difference.
he turned dallas around and put them on the track that wade phillips and jason garrett took advantage of. he drafted witten, ware, and found/groomed romo. beefed up their physicality 10-fold. signed leonard davis and just started smashing people with the OL and they havent stopped doing that since.
he flipped dallas from a 5 win team to a 9-10 win team with the foundation that became a 13 win team before they started regressing and fired wade for garrett. will mcclay started in dallas just 1 year ahead of parcells and that was just his 3rd year in an nfl gig so id imagine he learned a good amount under him. he got promoted to pro scouting coordinator a couple years after parcells left. mcclay's first nfl job was ironically in 2001 jax, under coughlin i think.
when parcells went to the dolphins FO a few years later he was close to belichick's age - and he helped turn a 1 win team the year before into an 11 win team the next year (even though sparano eventually proved to be a dud).
if someone has a better option than BB im all ears. vrabel is a compelling alternative but im not hiring a first timer again. no way no how. i felt that way 2 years ago when they hired daboll too and the fact that he won us all over hook line sinker same as mcadoo only makes me feel that way more absolutely this time around if things implode again.
RE: RE: RE: if the they clean house i dont see how he's not the odds on favorite
mara is very much swayed by public opinion. that's why he went the schoen/daboll route when he preferred flores even before schoen.
belichick is the easy button. if this thing implodes id be surprised if he doesnt press it.
I'm sure nostalgia will roll in like a hurricane if we get to the point. But, again, what's the strategy at QB for a 73-year-old HC chasing big trophies?
The solution isn't currently on the roster. Do we trust BB to draft one? And the free agency market, especially with Dak now out, isn't a bumper crop in 2025...
I just think he would be looking to do what Brady did. Find a ready-to-win-now team.
To me the strategy needs to move away from building everything around the QB. Just because they move on from Jones doesn't mean QB is solved. (And let's see them move on from Jones first before we assume anything, by the way)
If I'm running the Giants I try to get back to the roots of the two good eras most of us have seen: focus on building a big, powerful team dominated by OL and DL.
This organization needs an overarching goal statement, so how about something I heard Phil Simms say to Chris Russo last fall:
Fast teams slow down late in the season. Big teams don't get smaller.
Build a big strong team that will be able to compete in the northeast in December and January. Focus prime resources (Day 1 and 2 picks, prime FA money) on OL and DL who are big and powerful by NFL standards. The Giants' two best players fit this description, one on each side of the line. Build around them with more people like them. All along keep an eye open for a QB, but do it like Pittsburgh - stay cheap until it's time not to be. Treat the position like an actual meritocracy. Draft one every year, but don't crown anyone.
To go along with this, hire a head coach who knows something about line play. Possible current coordinators off the top of my head include Arthur Smith, Vic Fangio, and Greg Roman; I'm sure there are others that make sense.
Of all the dumb shit said on Hard Knocks there was one moment of clarity from, of all people, Tim Mccdonell: what is our identity?
This would be a start.
this has been my justification for harbough (then flores) since mcadoo failed. we've had so many coaching searches i cant remember the timing of all of them, but i think saban was even rumored interested at one point.
losing in embarrassing ways is so calcified in this organization at this point let's just get back to playing non-embarassing football even if it's ugly and .500ish.
before eli took off, that's basically what coughlin accomplished. nobody was satisfied with it but that foundation is what allowed the team to then win SB's after eli took off.
Eric on LI, if Dabs does get fired....my top choices are BB & Vrabel. Nota first time coach. Give me someone with some pelts on the wall who doesn't need on the job training & will bring immediate legitimacy to the organization, both of whom would IMO.
Eric on LI, if Dabs does get fired....my top choices are BB & Vrabel. Nota first time coach. Give me someone with some pelts on the wall who doesn't need on the job training & will bring immediate legitimacy to the organization, both of whom would IMO.
that's my pov too. id hope either has a smart plan for what they'd do offensively/schematically, but beggars cant be choosers. if we cant beat teams lets at least find someone who will put up some fight.
RE: RE: RE: if the they clean house i dont see how he's not the odds on favorite
he may. ive long expected him to land in dallas when mccarthy inevitably craps out again. but bb saw last year, there are no givens. he went for jobs and didnt get them. if an owner he respected offered him total control before a better job is open, would he pass on it? he learned last year unlike brady he's not assured to find what he wants.
re the second question do i trust BB to find the next QB? no i dont. but i also dont have the name of someone id trust more than him either, so that's kind of a useless question. mcvay and reid are probably the 2 guys id trust to do that and they arent available.
so im willing to settle for a guy who will bring in a lot of winning traits, a winning attitude, at minimum probably get the defense back into the top 10 consistently, and hopefully find the next versions of caserio, mayo, vrabel, bob, types to keep the organization moving in the right direction after he hopefully gets things back on track.
i would hope he is coming in with an offensive plan built around finding a way to steal from what has worked so well with the shanahan/mcvay guys. ryans, mcdaniel, koc, etc.
Agreed on Dallas. Obviously, there are no sure things, but they are definitely one of these teams that could be an "add Belichick and stir" for a championship contender right away.
While I'm not a big Dak guy because of his playoff struggles, maybe BB could be the talisman to get him to that next level. And for a defensive wizard like BB, Dallas has a lot of parts in place on D already.
And I agree on all the positives BB could install, and his impact on the culture. I love the guy and think he's been unfairly maligned for what he actually built during the Brady era.
But if it's nostalgia and love vs. winning more trophies, I would bet BB takes the road for the latter.
They’re failing because none have had good QB play. Because he fails in year 3 it’s because he’s too green, but what about scheming his way to a playoff win his first year as a head coach?
The math doesn’t add up.
A coach is dead in the water without a good QB, with the exception of maybe two to three head coaches in the league right now.
I hear you and I love the smashmouth approach. But today's game screams getting a high-level QB. It's such a must-have.
Look, at the end of the day, the NFL is a talent acquisition business. And right now, alas, it seems like we just can't find the right people to find that and further develop it.
I actually think your better idea was this off-season and making a serious run at Harbaugh. Do you think he would have gone into the April draft content to stick with #8?
It's going to be very interesting to watch him rebuild the Chargers. I hate the 49ers but love what he did with that team, and when he'd bring in 6 OL and just pound the rock in the red zone.
Yeah, we beat them when it mattered, but that was a tough, solid team with a very clear identity.
I hear you and I love the smashmouth approach. But today's game screams getting a high-level QB. It's such a must-have.
Look, at the end of the day, the NFL is a talent acquisition business. And right now, alas, it seems like we just can't find the right people to find that and further develop it.
I actually think your better idea was this off-season and making a serious run at Harbaugh. Do you think he would have gone into the April draft content to stick with #8?
I'm not saying didn't go for the high level QB. If the opportunity arises, do it. I just think this is the way to tread water (and possibly better) until that QB arrives.
Start out like Pittsburgh is now, with the goal being to become what Harbaugh is building in LA.
BB is chasing Shula and more Lombardi trophies. Right now, this place isn't close for a 73 old HC.
If Jacksonville struggles, I could see BB there with Lawrence.
totally agree BW. Perfect for both team and him. I suspect Daboll will be back unless he loses the team. I also think Jones is on a shorter leash than we think
I hear you and I love the smashmouth approach. But today's game screams getting a high-level QB. It's such a must-have.
Look, at the end of the day, the NFL is a talent acquisition business. And right now, alas, it seems like we just can't find the right people to find that and further develop it.
I actually think your better idea was this off-season and making a serious run at Harbaugh. Do you think he would have gone into the April draft content to stick with #8?
defense has somehow started making a comeback. even andy reid has been investing more on defense than offense in the last several years. they've been top 10 in points allowed pretty much every year since 2019, and last year they were 2nd. all of the 4 acfcg/nfcg were the best defenses.
since the 2012 CBA a lot of things have evolved. there was a lot of change in a short period of time. chasing QB gurus has been popular bc most of those changes slanted toward the offense initially but im not entirely sure it's been effective outside the shanahan system (mcvay, mcdaniels, koc).
carroll, tomlin, vrabel, belichick, mcdermott, john harbough, now ryans, dan campbell. now jim harbough. bowles has done a good job.
we'll see how raheem, macdonald, mayo, quinn, (and eberflus/allen/saleh) do this year, but there's been more of a renaissance with defensive head coaches than people realize.
defense has somehow started making a comeback. even andy reid has been investing more on defense than offense in the last several years. they've been top 10 in points allowed pretty much every year since 2019, and last year they were 2nd. all of the 4 acfcg/nfcg were the best defenses.
since the 2012 CBA a lot of things have evolved. there was a lot of change in a short period of time. chasing QB gurus has been popular bc most of those changes slanted toward the offense initially but im not entirely sure it's been effective outside the shanahan system (mcvay, mcdaniels, koc).
carroll, tomlin, vrabel, belichick, mcdermott, john harbough, now ryans, dan campbell. now jim harbough. bowles has done a good job.
we'll see how raheem, macdonald, mayo, quinn, (and eberflus/allen/saleh) do this year, but there's been more of a renaissance with defensive head coaches than people realize.
Yeah, those are good observations. We saw some signs last year with the defenses staying ahead of the offenses most of the season (I think). And this past weekend the defenses seemed to have the advantage again.
But I don't know if we are in a defensive resurgence or if we are seeing a dip in quality QB play. Could be a combination of both.
I either read or heard that DCs are using more zone and double-high safeties to limit splash plays, force patience, and concede FGs over TDs. Nothing ground-breaking, but the adjustments are occurring.
defense has somehow started making a comeback. even andy reid has been investing more on defense than offense in the last several years. they've been top 10 in points allowed pretty much every year since 2019, and last year they were 2nd. all of the 4 acfcg/nfcg were the best defenses.
since the 2012 CBA a lot of things have evolved. there was a lot of change in a short period of time. chasing QB gurus has been popular bc most of those changes slanted toward the offense initially but im not entirely sure it's been effective outside the shanahan system (mcvay, mcdaniels, koc).
carroll, tomlin, vrabel, belichick, mcdermott, john harbough, now ryans, dan campbell. now jim harbough. bowles has done a good job.
we'll see how raheem, macdonald, mayo, quinn, (and eberflus/allen/saleh) do this year, but there's been more of a renaissance with defensive head coaches than people realize.
Yeah, those are good observations. We saw some signs last year with the defenses staying ahead of the offenses most of the season (I think). And this past weekend the defenses seemed to have the advantage again.
But I don't know if we are in a defensive resurgence or if we are seeing a dip in quality QB play. Could be a combination of both.
I either read or heard that DCs are using more zone and double-high safeties to limit splash plays, force patience, and concede FGs over TDs. Nothing ground-breaking, but the adjustments are occurring.
the 2 macro trends around the league other than the basics (mahomes = good) are the shanahan offenses using pre-snap motion and defenses playing 2 high zones exactly as you described. spags and mcdermott at the top of those charts.
guessing how the next trends evolve seems difficult, id rather get someone like harbough who once again looks on track to succeed his own way because he just knows how to win by building a physical football team.
Today's game is so different than the one we grew up with, and there's a dearth of great coaches imo. Today's players make so much money, it's hard to get through. Even BB struggled in recent seasons as his personnel choices often weren't very good, and Brady and the core aged. Everyone is on a short leash, owners and fans get desperate, etc.
From what I'd heard, the BB ship sailed a decade ago.
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
I don't deny that this is a quarterback league. But there are two difficult truths:
1. The Giants don't presently have a QB, and more importantly...
2. I don't think they have an intelligent method in place to get a quarterback
I go back to Eli...the more I look at how that went down the dumber the Giants look in retrospect for that trade. It worked out, but it was a COLOSSAL gamble in an era where the number one pick instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league. I think that was a case of a flawed process yielding a good result. Based on the Jones experience I fear that is going to be their approach at QB: go all in on a guy and hope he works out.
I think the way to best control for that is to build a big, strong team whose reliance on the QB is minimized as much as possible. The two current models that come into my mind most are Pittsburgh and Detroit. Goff is a good player though not top shelf, and obviously Fields/Wilson are below that. Despite that those teams have strong frameworks elsewhere that can help carry those imperfect QBs to good things.
I think that might be the best way to go for the Giants. I don't see this team ever playing basketball on grass distributing to speedsters like Nabers and Hyatt. I say get back to the roots. Let's own what we have been under the Maras when things were good, because I don't see the Giants competing with those teams that understand state of the art offense.
RE: not sure why bb ship would have sailed any time prior
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
i agree w/ most of that but it's not really a novel approach
its basically the buffalo approach. or vrabel. or belichick. or harbaugh.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
RE: RE: not sure why bb ship would have sailed any time prior
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
after three seasons so you can hire a 73 year old guy to take over for as long as it takes him to claim the the NFL record for career wins, you gotta do it.
it could take years for him to get any wins with this team
RE: i agree w/ most of that but it's not really a novel approach
its basically the buffalo approach. or vrabel. or belichick. or harbaugh.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
That's my point; it isn't a novel approach. I didn't think this organization is suited to handle novel approaches. I think they are kidding themselves into thinking they can find the next Shanahan or McVay; I expect that Shanahan or McVay would have ended up another McAdoo or Daboll had they gone to the Giants.
I don't deny that this is a quarterback league. But there are two difficult truths:
1. The Giants don't presently have a QB, and more importantly...
2. I don't think they have an intelligent method in place to get a quarterback
I go back to Eli...the more I look at how that went down the dumber the Giants look in retrospect for that trade. It worked out, but it was a COLOSSAL gamble in an era where the number one pick instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league. I think that was a case of a flawed process yielding a good result. Based on the Jones experience I fear that is going to be their approach at QB: go all in on a guy and hope he works out.
I think the way to best control for that is to build a big, strong team whose reliance on the QB is minimized as much as possible. The two current models that come into my mind most are Pittsburgh and Detroit. Goff is a good player though not top shelf, and obviously Fields/Wilson are below that. Despite that those teams have strong frameworks elsewhere that can help carry those imperfect QBs to good things.
I think that might be the best way to go for the Giants. I don't see this team ever playing basketball on grass distributing to speedsters like Nabers and Hyatt. I say get back to the roots. Let's own what we have been under the Maras when things were good, because I don't see the Giants competing with those teams that understand state of the art offense.
I hear you on that and I'd be good with that strategy. The problem is that I don't think the Giants are ever going to have a plus personnel department. So I don't know if we'd ever accrue the advantages of saving $$ on the QB position.
I'm coming to the perspective that the model is good QB/great WR + some talent on D (ideally an elite pass rusher) I think that can make you a 2nd tier contender and have enough upside volatility to go deep in the playoffs. This is sort of the current Bengals and 2011 Giants model. Getting the WR and defensive player isn't that hard. And we might have both. You just have to get lucky at QB. Admittedly, that's not much of a plan, but I think that's the best we can hope for.
but I don't think it's a slam dunk. Much won't change for the Giants until they finally fix the fronts. This was a priority when TC took the job in 2004 and the winning followed. You see the change and emphasis in players added TC's first two years. When the fronts fell apart so did the franchise. Most know the major culprits that started the demise and it wasn't TC/Eli. The same issue remains today.
Harbaugh would have been a great hire who always stressed building top lines as a foundation everywhere he has been. Like TC, he also believes you build the offense off a strong running game primarily with RB's. Just like Det/SF do now.
I don't deny that this is a quarterback league. But there are two difficult truths:
1. The Giants don't presently have a QB, and more importantly...
2. I don't think they have an intelligent method in place to get a quarterback
I go back to Eli...the more I look at how that went down the dumber the Giants look in retrospect for that trade. It worked out, but it was a COLOSSAL gamble in an era where the number one pick instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league. I think that was a case of a flawed process yielding a good result. Based on the Jones experience I fear that is going to be their approach at QB: go all in on a guy and hope he works out.
I think the way to best control for that is to build a big, strong team whose reliance on the QB is minimized as much as possible. The two current models that come into my mind most are Pittsburgh and Detroit. Goff is a good player though not top shelf, and obviously Fields/Wilson are below that. Despite that those teams have strong frameworks elsewhere that can help carry those imperfect QBs to good things.
I think that might be the best way to go for the Giants. I don't see this team ever playing basketball on grass distributing to speedsters like Nabers and Hyatt. I say get back to the roots. Let's own what we have been under the Maras when things were good, because I don't see the Giants competing with those teams that understand state of the art offense.
I agree and have said this in the past. Build a team and then get whatever mobile QB with a decent arm is there in the draft, like a Bo Nix.
In fact, I said view QBs as expendable - 4 or 5 years and trade or let go. Keeps the ridiculous QB contracts off the cap number.
Obviously if you find Mahomes #2, keep him.
But, frankly, nobody has an airtight plan for QB. Most teams luck into a QB whether it be with the #1 or #2 pick of the draft or Shanahan with Purdy. Then there are injuries. Paying these guys $50 mill per with $150/$200 mill gtd is crazy when one unfortunate hit can end a career.
Listen to him on his podcasts and interviews since he left NE, and it's clear he hasn't lost it mentally.
However, I don't want him anywhere near GM duties, and I don't know how you get a younger GM to resist deferring to him.
They'd have to sort that out.
That is exactly the problem. Combine that with 73 years old and where does that leave a team 3 years down the road.
Also, remember, we have folks here on BBI that want the GM subservient to the HC - the GM drafts or signs players as per instructions of the HC. That is what BB would want/do.
but I don't think it's a slam dunk. Much won't change for the Giants until they finally fix the fronts. This was a priority when TC took the job in 2004 and the winning followed. You see the change and emphasis in players added TC's first two years. When the fronts fell apart so did the franchise. Most know the major culprits that started the demise and it wasn't TC/Eli. The same issue remains today.
Harbaugh would have been a great hire who always stressed building top lines as a foundation everywhere he has been. Like TC, he also believes you build the offense off a strong running game primarily with RB's. Just like Det/SF do now.
They have the best OT and best DT in the NFL. Stop acting like they’ve ignored the fronts
RE: RE: RE: not sure why bb ship would have sailed any time prior
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
There were back channel messages exchanged after TC was fired.
Realistic or not, a move to add Belichick doesn't move the needle
We don't have the front office personnel experience to compete for talent in the modern NFL. The personnel department has been injected with family members of the ownership who never had to prove themselves elsewhere. They are still operating in the 1990s where you find draft a QB and forget about the position until they retire, because the only thing worse than losing is a QB controversy.
No GM we can bring in can work past those handicaps other than BB. The problem is that BB is an incredibly good coach, but a poor talent evaluator. As mentioned, if BB is coaching this team, he is the GM whether he is given that title or not. Nobody is telling him to get out of the draft room or pipe down.
The Giants should be following the model Campbell did in Detroit. If you can't win the battle for offensive innovation in the modern NFL, you change the game and you go the opposite direction. You focus on the Oline and the running game, and you grab a QB to develop and a middling vet in FA to play until he is ready.
I don't love the idea of hiring a 73 year old to take over the operations, but I am going to go the opposite of Bitey's point yesterday - we need a historian not another innovator. This organization is not built for innovation.
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Until someone gets serious in that building about investing in the QB position in a smart fashion this franchise will remain stuck in the mud.
They just need a functional QB. I watched Miami's backup come in and make some plays or at least get the ball out near the open receiver most of the time.
I think there is enough on the Giants right now, that a functional QB makes them a .500 team.
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
RE: Agree with the sentiments from GT and Section125
We don't have the front office personnel experience to compete for talent in the modern NFL. The personnel department has been injected with family members of the ownership who never had to prove themselves elsewhere. They are still operating in the 1990s where you find draft a QB and forget about the position until they retire, because the only thing worse than losing is a QB controversy.
No GM we can bring in can work past those handicaps other than BB. The problem is that BB is an incredibly good coach, but a poor talent evaluator. As mentioned, if BB is coaching this team, he is the GM whether he is given that title or not. Nobody is telling him to get out of the draft room or pipe down.
The Giants should be following the model Campbell did in Detroit. If you can't win the battle for offensive innovation in the modern NFL, you change the game and you go the opposite direction. You focus on the Oline and the running game, and you grab a QB to develop and a middling vet in FA to play until he is ready.
I don't love the idea of hiring a 73 year old to take over the operations, but I am going to go the opposite of Bitey's point yesterday - we need a historian not another innovator. This organization is not built for innovation.
Also agree with the comments. Until the operation is completely turned over to football people who actually know how to build a world class organization, the Giants are screwed. The only time this happened in the last 50+ years is when the Giants were forced to do this. Any success we've had in the last 40 years is despite the Maras & family, not because of them. They think it is the other way around.
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
Based on Detroit's OL and the Giants OL looking functional for the first time in ages, this seems like the position group where you'd want to allocate dollars on vets rather than rely on the draft, since everyone is saying that colleges don't reliably develop OL anymore. Let that crapshoot be someone else's problem.
RE: RE: Realistic or not, a move to add Belichick doesn't move the needle
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Until someone gets serious in that building about investing in the QB position in a smart fashion this franchise will remain stuck in the mud.
They just need a functional QB. I watched Miami's backup come in and make some plays or at least get the ball out near the open receiver most of the time.
I think there is enough on the Giants right now, that a functional QB makes them a .500 team.
I don't disagree they need something functional to operate at QB, but that should be supplemented with an eval/invest process on QBs in the draft. And this needs to happen every year (or almost every year). And not just perfunctory, there needs to be some risks and prospects taken.
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
The Giants have two top-10 picks and a second round pick in the last 4 years invested in the line. The difference between the Giants and the Lions is not the investments or timing, it is the results.
This is not a failure of approach, it is a failure of execution.
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
Based on Detroit's OL and the Giants OL looking functional for the first time in ages, this seems like the position group where you'd want to allocate dollars on vets rather than rely on the draft, since everyone is saying that colleges don't reliably develop OL anymore. Let that crapshoot be someone else's problem.
I agree with signing FA oline vets. Even the best intentions in the draft are a crapshoot. Evan Neal is a perfect example. Virtually a perfect pedigree and right now he is no where near a functional NFL lineman. (I still blame Bobby Johnson mostly)
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
Based on Detroit's OL and the Giants OL looking functional for the first time in ages, this seems like the position group where you'd want to allocate dollars on vets rather than rely on the draft, since everyone is saying that colleges don't reliably develop OL anymore. Let that crapshoot be someone else's problem.
That or be committed to drafting mid round lineman have them develop in the pro game over 2-3 years.
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
The Giants have two top-10 picks and a second round pick in the last 4 years invested in the line. The difference between the Giants and the Lions is not the investments or timing, it is the results.
This is not a failure of approach, it is a failure of execution.
It's a failure in execution that impacts timing.
They don't have a time machine to go grab two starters from the 2016 draft.
Maybe 5 years from now, we'll look back at the longevity of Thomas, JMS, and Neal and their respective early struggles will be a distant memory.
But from a team building perspective, I don't think the Giants are in a position to do what Detroit accomplished 8 years ago.
RE: RE: i agree w/ most of that but it's not really a novel approach
its basically the buffalo approach. or vrabel. or belichick. or harbaugh.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
That's my point; it isn't a novel approach. I didn't think this organization is suited to handle novel approaches. I think they are kidding themselves into thinking they can find the next Shanahan or McVay; I expect that Shanahan or McVay would have ended up another McAdoo or Daboll had they gone to the Giants.
we agree again - but the odds show most have been kidding themselves thinking they could find another mcvay/shanahan. except basically all the guys who had been on that one specific staff who have worked out and a few of their direct disciples.
Agree they can't have a dominant line next year or the year after since dominant Olinemen aren't usually available via FA. But the point is that this team has no identity right now. WHat are they trying to accomplish? Get really good WRs and pass rushers and then wait for Patrick Mahomes to be available where you draft?
The two best players on this team are Thomas and Lawrence. You have a huge building block on each line right now. Lean into those strengths. You added Burns to the Dline who should help. Hopefully JMS becomes a strength at C. The it is up to the staff to get something out of Neal and Thibs or move on from them. But this team could have an excellent line in the next 2-3 years with the right investments.
Let's face it, this team has been plugging holes for the better part of the last two decades. It is time to commit to a plan instead of trying to plus holes and hope to sneak into the playoffs now and again when everything breaks right for you.
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
There were back channel messages exchanged after TC was fired.
im gonna call some mild bs on this - not on you or your credibility just on the quality and likelihood of the info relayed to you. a timeline:
January 4 2016
- Coughlin resigns, Reese remains
- defending SB champion NE on a bye week as 2 seed having gone 12-4
January 14 2016
- Giants hire Ben Mcadoo
January 16 / 24 2016
- NE beats KC 27-20, setting up January 24 AFCCG vs #1 seed Peyton Manning and Denver Broncos, which they lost 20-18.
Could they have checked in with BB during his bye week? sure. but what are the odds any non-parcells non-scumbag would seriously consider any move like that mid-dynasty?
a year later on 2/5/17 NE won super bowl 51 vs seattle on malcolm butlers INT and belichick's famous non-timeout, and then 2 years after that on 2/3/19 they won super bowl 53 vs the Rams.
forget the giants, how likely does it seem that belichick would have responded to any overture at that time or that kraft would have allowed it for anything short of the multiple first round picks he paid as compensation to jets?
out of personnel department. You cant have unaccountable people making those decisions.
That is accurate, but will also never happen. The Maras see them as part of the solution, not the problem.
And to be honest none of us know if those guys are any good at what they do. But the point you made is the reason they need to go - they are not accountable to anyone and their continued employment is not contingent on their performance, only their names.
Let's face it, this team has been plugging holes for the better part of the last two decades. It is time to commit to a plan instead of trying to plus holes and hope to sneak into the playoffs now and again when everything breaks right for you.
Offensively, the plan is crystal clear. Build a strong pass protecting offensive line and a stable of pass catchers who can catch and run.
If you re-watch the pass plays from the Vikings game, read the reviews, and read the grading outlets -- they did a good job pass protecting. That part of the plan is working out.
If you apply that same rubric to the receivers, they looked and graded to be open as well. That part of the plan appears capable of working.
They don't need to put their head in the sand and wait for a Mahomes. They just need someone who isn't arguably the very worst starter in the league at QB. All Pass Plays - ( New Window )
I just don't get what scenario people are envisioning
with Belichick. Do you think he's going to coach for 5 years?
At his age, I see something like 2 years. Maybe he does a good job coaching and we are a fundamentally sound team and we have 2 seasons that are like 8-9 and 9-8. The he retires and we start over again. Something like this seems to be by far the most likely outcome.
here is the OL in detroit by snaps played in campbell's first season there.
Sewell was campbell's first draft pick in his rookie season. picked 7th overall.
jonah jackson was a 3rd round pick from 2020 he inheritted. he was picked 75th overall so lower than both JMS/Ezeudu and not by campbell.
vaitai had been a UFA signing from Philly.
yes that is 3rd year Evan Brown who was a nyg UDFA signing under Gettleman.
and yes that is 2024 giants training camp cyclist matt nelson who stepped in for half the season to play T when Decker was injured.
jackson, vaitai, and brown have all moved on and he replaced them with draft picks and zeitler. yes inheriting decker/ragnow was a big help, as was their staying healthier in future seasons, but this nyg regime and the next will inherit their own version of at least decker with thomas.
RE: I just don't get what scenario people are envisioning
with Belichick. Do you think he's going to coach for 5 years?
At his age, I see something like 2 years. Maybe he does a good job coaching and we are a fundamentally sound team and we have 2 seasons that are like 8-9 and 9-8. The he retires and we start over again. Something like this seems to be by far the most likely outcome.
how does parcells dallas work for you as a model?
in the 3 years prior to parcells, they went 15-33.
in the 4 years he coached them, they went 34-30 with 3 winning seasons.
but in those 4 years he entirely rebuild their physicality, especially on the OL, and that has now been their calling card as a franchise for almost 2 full decades. will mcclays first year as a pro scout for dallas was the year before parcells got there. think those 4 years he was there with him didnt help inform how well he's continue to build their roster since? he's been their defacto gm since 2016/2017 and before that was their director of both pro/amateur scouting as they were drafting guys like martin, fredrick, lawrence, etc.
even with a crappy head coach like wade phillips they won 13 games the year after parcells left because he had built a foundation over his 4 years there with ware, witten, romo, the OL, etc. he gave them a blueprint that to their credit they've continued to copy effectively.
My point isn't Detroit was stagnant, my point is the group that is arguably the best unit in the NFL took talent acquisition across many years, including a boomerang Graham Glasgow, to develop.
Hopefully the Giants are entering the stage Detroit was in 2021. A unit that had aspirations to be in the top 3rd and has a few cornerstone players already there.
My point isn't Detroit was stagnant, my point is the group that is arguably the best unit in the NFL took talent acquisition across many years, including a boomerang Graham Glasgow, to develop.
Hopefully the Giants are entering the stage Detroit was in 2021. A unit that had aspirations to be in the top 3rd and has a few cornerstone players already there.
Adding a cerebral QB doesn’t hurt either
RE: RE: I just don't get what scenario people are envisioning
My point isn't Detroit was stagnant, my point is the group that is arguably the best unit in the NFL took talent acquisition across many years, including a boomerang Graham Glasgow, to develop.
Hopefully the Giants are entering the stage Detroit was in 2021. A unit that had aspirations to be in the top 3rd and has a few cornerstone players already there.
they had 3.5 new starters in dan campbell's first year because of injuries to decker and ragnow.
of course they weren't all rookies, some of them had been in the NFL for a long time. That is scouting, development, coaching. campbell's playing career was built entirely on blocking and he emphasized OL from day 1 getting his first pick right with Sewell.
he didnt even go out and hire a fancy OL coach, he kept hank fraley from the prior staff in just his 2nd year as OL coach.
each year they lost 1-2 starters to FA or upgraded those positions. this past year when they lost jonah jackson they replaced him with zeitler. glasgow is on a pretty modest glowinski sized contract. campbell brought a physical play with your hair on fire mindset and emphasis from day 1, and wasnt afraid to draft lower positional value players who fit that.
RE: I just don't get what scenario people are envisioning
with Belichick. Do you think he's going to coach for 5 years?
At his age, I see something like 2 years. Maybe he does a good job coaching and we are a fundamentally sound team and we have 2 seasons that are like 8-9 and 9-8. The he retires and we start over again. Something like this seems to be by far the most likely outcome.
100%.
I've written it a half dozen times the last several days. BB is chasing Shula and another Lombardi at this point. It's a chase for more history. Coming here doesn't improve those chances.
Maybe BB is feeling sentimental and magnanimous and I'm wrong.
But he seems like a super competitive guy itching to win big without Brady. And put a fork in that debate.
RE: RE: RE: I just don't get what scenario people are envisioning
The Dallas that hasn't so much as played in a conference title game? That Dallas?
Yes exactly that dallas. If Jerry Jones hadnt run off Parcells they probably would have been in the conference title game in 2008 instead of nyg. Or if he'd replaced him with good coaches instead of a bunch of mediocre's like wade, garrett, mccarthy.
but hey tell yourself whatever you want, if you want to equate this franchise being the league's doormat for the last decade and dallas avg'ing like 10 wins a season and winning the division every other year just because they havent figured it out in the postseason by all means.
"sure my honda is a beat up piece of junk that breaks down every week but let's not act like that BMW over there is better because it's definitely not a Rolls Royce"
It's not a random fluke that no one Belichick's age has ever been an NFL head coach, other than Romeo Crennel's brief stint as an interim HC. It's an exceptionally demanding job that requires an incredible level of energy and time.
Acknowledging biological reality is a good thing. Theoretically, some kind of director of football ops would make sense....except that his performance as defacto GM of the Patriots since Brady's departure was pretty bad.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I just don't get what scenario people are envisioning
"sure my honda is a beat up piece of junk that breaks down every week but let's not act like that BMW over there is better because it's definitely not a Rolls Royce"
Beat that strawman, baby! It won't try that again!
If you can point out to me where I said that I'd rather be the Giants of recent vintage than the Cowboys of recent vintage, I will gladly retract and apologize. I did not say or even imply that.
This discussion is about what the Giants *should* be going forward, what kind of team we would want them to be. If being a good (not great) regular season team and flopping in the playoffs every single year strikes you as an ideal, then more power to you.
RE: RE: I just don't get what scenario people are envisioning
with Belichick. Do you think he's going to coach for 5 years?
At his age, I see something like 2 years. Maybe he does a good job coaching and we are a fundamentally sound team and we have 2 seasons that are like 8-9 and 9-8. The he retires and we start over again. Something like this seems to be by far the most likely outcome.
100%.
I've written it a half dozen times the last several days. BB is chasing Shula and another Lombardi at this point. It's a chase for more history. Coming here doesn't improve those chances.
Maybe BB is feeling sentimental and magnanimous and I'm wrong.
But he seems like a super competitive guy itching to win big without Brady. And put a fork in that debate.
he is clearly motivated but he just went an offseason getting passed over for how many jobs?
if he gets offered a job with total control on say january 1, before an opportunity like dallas is likely even known to be available or not since they will be in the playoffs, is he passing on it?
if i were john mara id already have him in the tent as a consultant. pay him whatever to confidentially give his honest thoughts on the state of the team. he's doing it publicly for ESPN, cant imagine it's a stretch that he'd do it confidentially if asked by an owner/organization he's declared a public fondness for dozens of times. edelman's comments aren't out of nowhere.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I just don't get what scenario people are envisioning
"sure my honda is a beat up piece of junk that breaks down every week but let's not act like that BMW over there is better because it's definitely not a Rolls Royce"
Beat that strawman, baby! It won't try that again!
If you can point out to me where I said that I'd rather be the Giants of recent vintage than the Cowboys of recent vintage, I will gladly retract and apologize. I did not say or even imply that.
This discussion is about what the Giants *should* be going forward, what kind of team we would want them to be. If being a good (not great) regular season team and flopping in the playoffs every single year strikes you as an ideal, then more power to you.
the strawman is that there's any way to knowingly build a good regular season team that then flops in the playoffs.
i think building a good team is a good idea whatever else happens after that, and dallas has been building good teams since parcells came in.
what happens to said good teams once they get to the playoffs is likely to come down to whether or not whoever the QB/head coach can win big games. andy reid got fired in philly because he built a lot of good regular season teams that didnt win super bowls. he's 66 years old and id gladly take him as coach for the next decade too.
Based on the early results, the Giants don't need anyone on fire. The offensive line at a minimum took the first step into functional, and presumably with more time and cohesion, will develop further.
You don't need a Dan Campbell character to project the Giants have made some sound investments in the offensive line and the arrow is pointing in the right direction.
But if you want veins popping and dramatic embarrassing failure in the biggest game of one's tenure, maybe the Giants can just give Daboll an energy drink. He's 50% of the way there.
Andy Reid wins Super Bowls now because he has the best QB
I think tberes a lot of randomness in the post season stuff. I don't see anything in the Cowboys roster construction or talent level that would preclude them from doing well in the playoffs.
Dallas has been very good for a long time, they are explosive with big play ability on both sides of the ball. Yes I want that.
I just don't see hiring 73 year old Belichick as the path there. Unless he permanently cleaned out John, Chris, Tim, and whatever other critters are on the way up. If that was the only thing he did, I'd also sign up for that.
who might very well end up being the best QB ever.
and based on your thought process in this thread, you probably would have moved on from him at some point in the 18 seasons before he won with mahomes because he "flopped in the postseason". he only won 1 playoff game in his first 5 years with the chiefs.
and based on your thought process in this thread, you probably would have moved on from him at some point in the 18 seasons before he won with mahomes because he "flopped in the postseason". he only won 1 playoff game in his first 5 years with the chiefs.
A whole bunch of coaches could win Super Bowls with Mahomes. It's not some unique ability of Reid's.
Based on the early results, the Giants don't need anyone on fire. The offensive line at a minimum took the first step into functional, and presumably with more time and cohesion, will develop further.
You don't need a Dan Campbell character to project the Giants have made some sound investments in the offensive line and the arrow is pointing in the right direction.
But if you want veins popping and dramatic embarrassing failure in the biggest game of one's tenure, maybe the Giants can just give Daboll an energy drink. He's 50% of the way there.
another strawman. nobody is talking about regime change because of just the OL.
we are talking about regime change because the team got it's dome caved in at home week 1 by sam freaking darnold, continuing a trend of getting rolled over with almost zero pushback for the full decade post-coughlin. over that period of time they have almost never been the more physical team. OL is only a part of that larger reality.
1. Mara fires coaches after two consecutive bad years (Coughlin had four years because of the 2 super bowls). He bounced from Coughlin to McAdoo to Shurmur to Judge to Daboll. When things went badly with the younger offensive guru in McAdoo he turned to the security blanket of known commodities.
2. Spending on BB would also throw red meat to the disillusioned fan base to generate excitement based on past successes both here and in New England.
3. They are friends and BB would be able to influence Mara to get what he wants, moreso than other owners in the NFL where there may not be the same history
RE: RE: RE: Andy Reid wins Super Bowls now because he has the best QB
and based on your thought process in this thread, you probably would have moved on from him at some point in the 18 seasons before he won with mahomes because he "flopped in the postseason". he only won 1 playoff game in his first 5 years with the chiefs.
A whole bunch of coaches could win Super Bowls with Mahomes. It's not some unique ability of Reid's.
It is a unique ability of Reid's to coach Patrick Mahomes only because he was uniquely the one who traded up to draft him while 9 other teams directly passed on him and 21 others didnt trade up for him (all but 4 with picks higher than the 27th pick reid moved up from).
It is also a unique ability of his to have won games in the regular season at a near 60% clip even without Mahomes.
RE: RE: RE: I just don't get what scenario people are envisioning
he is clearly motivated but he just went an offseason getting passed over for how many jobs?
if he gets offered a job with total control on say january 1, before an opportunity like dallas is likely even known to be available or not since they will be in the playoffs, is he passing on it?
if i were john mara id already have him in the tent as a consultant. pay him whatever to confidentially give his honest thoughts on the state of the team. he's doing it publicly for ESPN, cant imagine it's a stretch that he'd do it confidentially if asked by an owner/organization he's declared a public fondness for dozens of times. edelman's comments aren't out of nowhere.
Well, you are raising another point/question if BB is even hirable at this point based on his age, his last four years in New England, and the quasi-blacking-balling Kraft has been reported to be doing behind the scenes. Hell, it was reported he didn't even finish in the top three finalists for the ATL job.
So, while there may be limited demand based on all those factors, I'm not convinced BB will just accept any job at the point. Again, my gut tells me he wants the best chance to win as soon as possible.
Which is why he was into the ATL job. They have a lot of pieces in place and play in one of the weaker divisions.
At this point, his best chance is with a team that is close, so that team doesn't have to worry about him impacting personnel. BB comes in and focuses on culture, discipline, and installing his programs.
Your focus should be on adding value to discussions which is rare and not telling people what to do. Those two players were from the last regime but the point I made was not about that and much deeper. Investment means little without productive results. You should understand this.
Your focus should be on adding value to discussions which is rare and not telling people what to do. Those two players were from the last regime but the point I made was not about that and much deeper. Investment means little without productive results. You should understand this.
You should try adding value and not telling people what to do.
The current regime has invested two top 10 picks, a second rounder, and significant money in both the defensive and offensive lines.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I just don't get what scenario people are envisioning
he is clearly motivated but he just went an offseason getting passed over for how many jobs?
if he gets offered a job with total control on say january 1, before an opportunity like dallas is likely even known to be available or not since they will be in the playoffs, is he passing on it?
if i were john mara id already have him in the tent as a consultant. pay him whatever to confidentially give his honest thoughts on the state of the team. he's doing it publicly for ESPN, cant imagine it's a stretch that he'd do it confidentially if asked by an owner/organization he's declared a public fondness for dozens of times. edelman's comments aren't out of nowhere.
Well, you are raising another point/question if BB is even hirable at this point based on his age, his last four years in New England, and the quasi-blacking-balling Kraft has been reported to be doing behind the scenes. Hell, it was reported he didn't even finish in the top three finalists for the ATL job.
So, while there may be limited demand based on all those factors, I'm not convinced BB will just accept any job at the point. Again, my gut tells me he wants the best chance to win as soon as possible.
Which is why he was into the ATL job. They have a lot of pieces in place and play in one of the weaker divisions.
At this point, his best chance is with a team that is close, so that team doesn't have to worry about him impacting personnel. BB comes in and focuses on culture, discipline, and installing his programs.
he went full tilt for the ATL job and i disagree that they had a lot of pieces. they had the 8th pick and obviously didnt have cousins yet so qb was a complete unknown. they had a few recent high draft picks (bijan, london, pitts) but not a ton else. i think he has since even been critical of the extension they gave Terrell.
Based on the early results, the Giants don't need anyone on fire. The offensive line at a minimum took the first step into functional, and presumably with more time and cohesion, will develop further.
You don't need a Dan Campbell character to project the Giants have made some sound investments in the offensive line and the arrow is pointing in the right direction.
But if you want veins popping and dramatic embarrassing failure in the biggest game of one's tenure, maybe the Giants can just give Daboll an energy drink. He's 50% of the way there.
another strawman. nobody is talking about regime change because of just the OL.
we are talking about regime change because the team got it's dome caved in at home week 1 by sam freaking darnold, continuing a trend of getting rolled over with almost zero pushback for the full decade post-coughlin. over that period of time they have almost never been the more physical team. OL is only a part of that larger reality.
I'm only discussing the offensive line dip shit.
You feel free to get yourself all revved up about Belichick. I'm sure it will age as well as your previous semi-annual over reactions. It can sit neatly next to demand for Carr and how dangerous Simmons will be as a pass rusher.
If you actually read my post I answered that part you are questioning. I just told you not to tell me what to do. I don't tell you what to do but I have told you that you made a dumb or stupid post. I was just being honest.
Based on the early results, the Giants don't need anyone on fire. The offensive line at a minimum took the first step into functional, and presumably with more time and cohesion, will develop further.
You don't need a Dan Campbell character to project the Giants have made some sound investments in the offensive line and the arrow is pointing in the right direction.
But if you want veins popping and dramatic embarrassing failure in the biggest game of one's tenure, maybe the Giants can just give Daboll an energy drink. He's 50% of the way there.
another strawman. nobody is talking about regime change because of just the OL.
we are talking about regime change because the team got it's dome caved in at home week 1 by sam freaking darnold, continuing a trend of getting rolled over with almost zero pushback for the full decade post-coughlin. over that period of time they have almost never been the more physical team. OL is only a part of that larger reality.
I'm only discussing the offensive line dip shit.
You feel free to get yourself all revved up about Belichick. I'm sure it will age as well as your previous semi-annual over reactions. It can sit neatly next to demand for Carr and how dangerous Simmons will be as a pass rusher.
so go make an OL thread dip shit. last i checked this thread was about Belichick so maybe don't enter if it's going to so trigger you?
btw the simmons thread i made last year that is so etched in your mind was 3.5 months before the gm of this franchise apparently agreed with the idea bc he then actually traded for him. and while they didnt use him pass rushing so much he actually did rate better than most of the rest of the defense in the mostly coverage role they put him in, which is presumably why they resigned him and gave him a raise.
though to be clear at this point having my ideas endorsed by joe schoen probably rates even lower than the fastidious memory of bbi's resident scorekeeper in terms of noteworthy achievements.
They were outlining the head coaching hires since Coughlin. Man, it's depressing.
Ben McAdoo
Pat Shurmur
Joe Judge
Simmons called it the trifecta. None of them had any business being a head coach. Shurmur and Judge both in college now. Daboll probably gets fired next.
This is the NY Giants. Think about how bad these recent hires are.
Mike in Ohio and I were having an exchange about the Lions line. You're more than welcome to exhibit the moderate amount of discernment to read around comments to understand the context. Given your pointed and unsolicited response to that line of discussion, I'll assume you actually kind of got that.
As far as gate keeping, I can only aspire to your heights. You don't solicit a nickname like Receipts on Li without putting in the work. So bravo.
This week the answer is Belichick, I can only guess what will get your worked up into a chart on Monday.
Mike in Ohio and I were having an exchange about the Lions line. You're more than welcome to exhibit the moderate amount of discernment to read around comments to understand the context. Given your pointed and unsolicited response to that line of discussion, I'll assume you actually kind of got that.
As far as gate keeping, I can only aspire to your heights. You don't solicit a nickname like Receipts on Li without putting in the work. So bravo.
This week the answer is Belichick, I can only guess what will get your worked up into a chart on Monday.
mike in ohio's comment re Campbell came directly off the discussion me and go terps had yesterday and his conclusion was the same as both of ours was - which was pro-BB. my comment agreeing with the point Mike brought up re Campbell was perfectly in context with the thread as evidenced by the fact that I myself had also brought him up prior, and here are the receipts on li for you.
i agree w/ most of that but it's not really a novel approach its basically the buffalo approach. or vrabel. or belichick. or harbaugh.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
Agree with the sentiments from GT and Section125 We don't have the front office personnel experience to compete for talent in the modern NFL. The personnel department has been injected with family members of the ownership who never had to prove themselves elsewhere. They are still operating in the 1990s where you find draft a QB and forget about the position until they retire, because the only thing worse than losing is a QB controversy.
No GM we can bring in can work past those handicaps other than BB. The problem is that BB is an incredibly good coach, but a poor talent evaluator. As mentioned, if BB is coaching this team, he is the GM whether he is given that title or not. Nobody is telling him to get out of the draft room or pipe down.
The Giants should be following the model Campbell did in Detroit. If you can't win the battle for offensive innovation in the modern NFL, you change the game and you go the opposite direction. You focus on the Oline and the running game, and you grab a QB to develop and a middling vet in FA to play until he is ready.
I don't love the idea of hiring a 73 year old to take over the operations, but I am going to go the opposite of Bitey's point yesterday - we need a historian not another innovator. This organization is not built for innovation.
i disagreed with your comment below coming off that exactly the same way mike did because both of his posts were exactly right, Detroit didn't pull off some magic unicorn strategy that requires a time machine, Dan Campbell came in and executed with mostly players he inherited. Just as Jim Harbough appears to be doing with LAC without a time machine.
If you actually read my post I answered that part you are questioning. I just told you not to tell me what to do. I don't tell you what to do but I have told you that you made a dumb or stupid post. I was just being honest.
Perhaps best to not follow me around.
Don’t flatter yourself, it’s just dumb to keep non stop yelling about the lines of scrimmage.
Thank you for the forensics on a conversation I literally just participated in Receipts on Li.
It appears that in point-of-fact you were able to read along, and you did understand Mike and I were talking about one isolated aspect of Campbell's team building.
This might blow your mind, but from time-to-time people will participate in tangential conversations, that don't tie to your tedious and repetitive drivel.
I kind of like Receipts on Li, but I'm also inclined to introduce Eric the Splash Play Machine.
They were outlining the head coaching hires since Coughlin. Man, it's depressing.
Ben McAdoo
Pat Shurmur
Joe Judge
Simmons called it the trifecta. None of them had any business being a head coach. Shurmur and Judge both in college now. Daboll probably gets fired next.
This is the NY Giants. Think about how bad these recent hires are.
Shurmur had every right to be a NFL HC. He earned his chance as one of the best OCs in football. Lombardi is a total a$$hole.
Sometimes it does not work out, Wade Phillips was easily one of the best DCs in the NFL in the last 30 years. He earned his chance as HC. It did not work out. There are numerous OCs and DCs that were top 5 at there job that earned the right to be HC and it did not work out.
I don't apologize for understanding the critical importance of LoS play nor have I missed the Giants struggles at the LoS. Foundation of football. Post plenty about other topics.
You called it dumb and didn't tell me not to post about it. Good job. However it's 30 not 36. You should know this with the couple hundred posts to me about it. I also went into much more than 30. Have fun continuing with that if you choose.
If only the Patriots had rushed for 30 yards per game the last two years, Belichick would be a candidate for the Giants job. But unfortunately no dice.
Story teller Christian. Time to build another malfunctioning clock or system. At least BB stories have merit but then again he doesn't need to tell them.
Thank you for the forensics on a conversation I literally just participated in Receipts on Li.
It appears that in point-of-fact you were able to read along, and you did understand Mike and I were talking about one isolated aspect of Campbell's team building.
This might blow your mind, but from time-to-time people will participate in tangential conversations, that don't tie to your tedious and repetitive drivel.
I kind of like Receipts on Li, but I'm also inclined to introduce Eric the Splash Play Machine.
what i understand is that you played christian the contrarian as usual, made the 'time machine' comment which both mike and myself objected to based on football since this is a football message board, then as has been your habit the last several months a pedantic football discussion, in this case statistics about the detroit lions offensive line, triggers you into name calling and projection.
i'd say you should keep workshopping better nicknames for me because you havent quite hit the mark but im not sure how healthy it is for you to spend any more time thinking about me or my posts.
They were outlining the head coaching hires since Coughlin. Man, it's depressing.
Ben McAdoo
Pat Shurmur
Joe Judge
Simmons called it the trifecta. None of them had any business being a head coach. Shurmur and Judge both in college now. Daboll probably gets fired next.
This is the NY Giants. Think about how bad these recent hires are.
Shurmur had every right to be a NFL HC. He earned his chance as one of the best OCs in football. Lombardi is a total a$$hole.
Sometimes it does not work out, Wade Phillips was easily one of the best DCs in the NFL in the last 30 years. He earned his chance as HC. It did not work out. There are numerous OCs and DCs that were top 5 at there job that earned the right to be HC and it did not work out.
i thought shurmur deserved a chance too, and unlike mcadoo he'd been a HC before so there was some hope he fit the arians prototype at that time which was an overlooked experienced assistant because personality wise he didnt fit into the right mold.
as it turned out he had the maturity of a 2nd grader. each of these failed HC's has had a breaking moment and i think his was when he publicly threw Lauletta under the bus. the only what if i have with him was if he'd have gotten Fangio as DC since bettcher was just so, so bad. if 2018 goes better maybe the OBJ trade never happens and then maybe you have a good defense plus an offense that has Engram, OBJ, Barkley. but more than likely it makes no difference. leadership is destiny and he was a shitty leader.
daboll hasnt had his signature public breaking point yet and obviously the future is unwritten so who knows but he is on the doorstep. if this week goes poorly and with CLE then what could into a DAL home game in NY on TNG next up the movie feels all too familiar. with the benefit of hindsight his friction with mcdermott doesnt reflect very well given mcdermott has been able to fire his protege, move on, and keep that train moving.
I made an isolated observation that I didn't believe the the Lions line is a good model for the Giants -- given the age, milage, and timeframe it took to be where they are today.
And that under Daboll, the Giants have spent plenty of resources on the offensive, which is finally showing signs of improvement.
That you found that to be evidence I was accusing you of wanting regime change solely because of the offense line was so out of left field, you 100% deserved to be called a dipshit.
I made an isolated observation that I didn't believe the the Lions line is a good model for the Giants -- given the age, milage, and timeframe it took to be where they are today.
And that under Daboll, the Giants have spent plenty of resources on the offensive, which is finally showing signs of improvement.
That you found that to be evidence I was accusing you of wanting regime change solely because of the offense line was so out of left field, you 100% deserved to be called a dipshit.
act offended at something banal challenge accepted apparently.
i deeply apologize for accusing you of accusing me of basing an argument on the narrowed criteria of OL play absent everything else discussed itt. feel better or still big mad?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: not sure why bb ship would have sailed any time prior
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
There were back channel messages exchanged after TC was fired.
im gonna call some mild bs on this - not on you or your credibility just on the quality and likelihood of the info relayed to you. a timeline:
January 4 2016
- Coughlin resigns, Reese remains
- defending SB champion NE on a bye week as 2 seed having gone 12-4
January 14 2016
- Giants hire Ben Mcadoo
January 16 / 24 2016
- NE beats KC 27-20, setting up January 24 AFCCG vs #1 seed Peyton Manning and Denver Broncos, which they lost 20-18.
Could they have checked in with BB during his bye week? sure. but what are the odds any non-parcells non-scumbag would seriously consider any move like that mid-dynasty?
a year later on 2/5/17 NE won super bowl 51 vs seattle on malcolm butlers INT and belichick's famous non-timeout, and then 2 years after that on 2/3/19 they won super bowl 53 vs the Rams.
forget the giants, how likely does it seem that belichick would have responded to any overture at that time or that kraft would have allowed it for anything short of the multiple first round picks he paid as compensation to jets?
My brain is overloaded these days with new job and son in school dual chaos, but I believe the whispers started in December before they canned TC. Eric, a few asshats, and a few I know off BBI all heard some semblance of it. YMMV.
It doesn't mean it's a lock to not happen now, but it would be a huge reversal from NYG ownership. Either way, moving on.
i dont doubt the whispers or the inquiries on the giants end, im just putting myself in BB shoes and assessing that given the context of his situation at the time, the odds of him being remotely interested in dec 2015 had to be less than .0000001% and the odds of kraft letting him out of whatever his contract was even lower.
he was running a 12 win team led by brady that was firmly in the middle of a dynasty. and he stayed there almost another decade, 4 years past brady, so he didnt seem to be in any rush to move on.
Belichick has a new show on YouTube with Mike Lombardi
I know - Mike Lombardi is a blowhard who hates the Giants (even though he's been dead on accurate about them).
Anyway, they're two episodes in and it's a good watch. Belichick is a young 72, and he's definitely sharp.
I'd shitcan these guys and hire Belichick in two seconds. We're not going to win a title, but I am absolutely certain he'd build something better than this shit.
RE: RE: I just don't get what scenario people are envisioning
with Belichick. Do you think he's going to coach for 5 years?
At his age, I see something like 2 years. Maybe he does a good job coaching and we are a fundamentally sound team and we have 2 seasons that are like 8-9 and 9-8. The he retires and we start over again. Something like this seems to be by far the most likely outcome.
100%.
I've written it a half dozen times the last several days. BB is chasing Shula and another Lombardi at this point. It's a chase for more history. Coming here doesn't improve those chances.
Maybe BB is feeling sentimental and magnanimous and I'm wrong.
But he seems like a super competitive guy itching to win big without Brady. And put a fork in that debate.
This makes perfect sense but sometimes people make weird decisions, like Jason Garrett agreeing to be OC here.
I know - Mike Lombardi is a blowhard who hates the Giants (even though he's been dead on accurate about them).
Anyway, they're two episodes in and it's a good watch. Belichick is a young 72, and he's definitely sharp.
I'd shitcan these guys and hire Belichick in two seconds. We're not going to win a title, but I am absolutely certain he'd build something better than this shit.
Lombardi is full of shit. Don't try to sugarcoat a whiny, bitter SOB.
A young 72/73? That's a ringing endorsement. He is a freaking minefield. He could not win without Brady and chased his biggest asset off by refusing to get him WRs that could catch the football, even after Brady took pay cuts to give the Patriots the money to sign better players.
No doubt Bill know football. But he is a disaster at GM.
I’m not sure there is a solution. Daboll looked like he didn’t care last week. That’s VERY bad. I can’t imagine any 3rd year head coach in his position being anything but full tilt win now and damn the torpedos.
I get the allure, but Belichick would be the epitome of existing.
My concern is bringing someone in like Ben Johnson who might as well be Daboll in 2022. Offensive mind to *gasp* fix Daniel Jones year 7 or bring him in to find the next QB.
I liked their thinking with the Judge hire, he just was not qualified.
Really sucked. He will suck this week, too. He will suck for the rest of the year until he starts catching splinters on the bench or carrying the clipboard. That may not mean the rest of the team sucks. (but it helps)
New flash - half the teams in the NFL sucked last week. Teams often are bad the 1st week and sometimes the 2nd week too. Unfortunately, we have the Daniel Jones effect in addition to early season ineptitude.
In 2006, the Giants defense sucked for 2 and 3/4 games learning a new defense - and the really were atrocious. Unfortunately we don't have Eli for the offense.
Really sucked. He will suck this week, too. He will suck for the rest of the year until he starts catching splinters on the bench or carrying the clipboard. That may not mean the rest of the team sucks. (but it helps)
New flash - half the teams in the NFL sucked last week. Teams often are bad the 1st week and sometimes the 2nd week too. Unfortunately, we have the Daniel Jones effect in addition to early season ineptitude.
In 2006, the Giants defense sucked for 2 and 3/4 games learning a new defense - and the really were atrocious. Unfortunately we don't have Eli for the offense.
I think there is talent on this team, but EVERYTHING is being held back because of the QB position.
First two teams were Dallas and Green Bay. Both were 13-3 teams. One QB in the HOF and the other was a really good one.
The Green Bay the D actually was not so bad. It got away towards the end. Much more talented D team though.
Yep, 2007, Thanks. The Giants defense gave up 80 points the 1st three games, IIRC. They were dreadful. And then they got better. Point is still the same, took most of three games for THAT defense to get up to speed.
Really sucked. He will suck this week, too. He will suck for the rest of the year until he starts catching splinters on the bench or carrying the clipboard. That may not mean the rest of the team sucks. (but it helps)
New flash - half the teams in the NFL sucked last week. Teams often are bad the 1st week and sometimes the 2nd week too. Unfortunately, we have the Daniel Jones effect in addition to early season ineptitude.
In 2006, the Giants defense sucked for 2 and 3/4 games learning a new defense - and the really were atrocious. Unfortunately we don't have Eli for the offense.
I think there is talent on this team, but EVERYTHING is being held back because of the QB position.
That is my opinion, also. However, the defense should still be able to be successful or should I say solid without the QB.
He can go. If it's him or Belichick in 2025, that's no contest.
I definitely do not want a first time guy like Ben Johnson. We'll be replacing him in three years. How a head coach for the team, not the QB.
if daboll fails they cannot do a first timer again. ironically i think that was mara's instinct last time and why he was hot for flores until schoen chose daboll.
Over the past 2 years and won 9 and 6 games. Daboll had all the appropriate qualifications for an HC job. This year we have 6-7 win talent - if everything falls apart, he'll likely be gone. And it will be another carcass processed through the Mara/Jones meat grinder.
I'm not saying he's an elite coach and we need to keep him under any circumstances. But I also don't think he warrants the "he's a bum, he's only in the league because of Josh Allen, bad hire" type of stuff that is inevitably coming his way.
He can go. If it's him or Belichick in 2025, that's no contest.
Okay, I'll bite. Why does Daboll stink?
Expecting him to make more chicken salad out of Jones for more than one year was the stretch of stretches.
Look, I don't want to limit this to just the offense and QB. But he's totally handcuffed by a dying QB and a GM who seems way over his head right now.
Remember, he steered the ship in 2022 with mostly Gettleman's leftovers. Just think about that...
Daboll won COY by making chicken salad out of a chicken shit quarterback. And he deserves all of the credit in doing so. The mistake was believing at the moment of truth that DJ was anything more than a backup talent and being all-in with Schoen on that contract, as the asshats have confirmed this week. After last year, to now be content with Lock and DeVito as being sufficient to support our chicken shit quarterback, particularly when the "coach up Lock the way he coached up Allen" thesis has been proven to be pure nonsense, is nothing less than a fireable offense.
Daboll's only chance to survive is if he benches DJ asap, to at least win back the locker room, and is somehow able to get this team to win with either Lock or DeVito. Which would reestablish his magician like ability to make chicken salad again. But given the schedule and current state of the team, this would be the a Houdini act for the ages. Meaning, it is a virtual certainty that Daboll, and hopefully Schoen too, will be fired either at the end of the year, or better yet, prior to the trade deadline to ensure that decisions this year are properly made with a focus on the future and rebuilding this team. Yet again.
that defense was beyond lacking in talent in 2022 and yet they got stops against lamar, rodgers, cousins, and probably some others im forgetting when it matter. they kept games close and competed.
that defense didnt give up more than 22 points in a game until week 8 against on the road vs seattle when they gave up 27. and they had multiple starters on that defense who were signed off the street after week 1. jaylon smith instead of okereke, fabian moureau at cb instead of banks.
You’re right to focus on what Daboll can do to save his job.
Just a factual question, did everyone sense the same passivity in Daboll during and after the game last week as I felt? I’m wondering if I’m projecting or if others got the same feeling.
You’re right to focus on what Daboll can do to save his job.
Just a factual question, did everyone sense the same passivity in Daboll during and after the game last week as I felt? I’m wondering if I’m projecting or if others got the same feeling.
there seemed to be less intensity in general.
i think that's more broadly 1 of the concerns with a head coach being both OC and HC. in a way he is his own boss, and focusing on half of the team in a very specific/tangible way (play calling) possibly at the expense of putting energy into the full team. especially since they also had a new DC in his first game.
with the 22/23 staff setups i think we would have seen daboll pacing the sidelines with more emotion.
that defense was beyond lacking in talent in 2022 and yet they got stops against lamar, rodgers, cousins, and probably some others im forgetting when it matter. they kept games close and competed.
that defense didnt give up more than 22 points in a game until week 8 against on the road vs seattle when they gave up 27. and they had multiple starters on that defense who were signed off the street after week 1. jaylon smith instead of okereke, fabian moureau at cb instead of banks.
that team just competed it's ass off.
No question. Wink may very well be the biggest loss of all this year. Bowen's defense in that first game reminded me a lot of the vaunted James Bettcher defense - a bend but don't break defense that breaks as much as it bends.
As to 2022, once Daboll put the team on his back in the Titans game by getting in DJ's face after that brutal fourth quarter interception and then had the courage to go for the two point conversion with Barkley, that locker room was fully bought in for the season. But it began with the belief that Daboll could get the team to win with a quarterback like DJ. Once that illusion was shattered, first by the Eagles playoff game, and then when DJ was rewarded with a ridiculously overvalued contract while Barkley was simultaneously completely disrespected, the locker room was lost.
You’re right to focus on what Daboll can do to save his job.
Just a factual question, did everyone sense the same passivity in Daboll during and after the game last week as I felt? I’m wondering if I’m projecting or if others got the same feeling.
It appears to me to be a sense of resignation in coming to terms with the reality that there is nothing that can be done with this team with DJ as its quarterback. The thesis that fixing the OL, getting weapons, committing to positional value, improving the defense, trusting the process, etc etc, only works if you have a competent NFL quarterback. DJ is who he always has been. Nothing has changed. He and Schoen made a massive bet and it has failed. They have sown the wind and shall now reap the whirlwind...
that defense was beyond lacking in talent in 2022 and yet they got stops against lamar, rodgers, cousins, and probably some others im forgetting when it matter. they kept games close and competed.
that defense didnt give up more than 22 points in a game until week 8 against on the road vs seattle when they gave up 27. and they had multiple starters on that defense who were signed off the street after week 1. jaylon smith instead of okereke, fabian moureau at cb instead of banks.
that team just competed it's ass off.
No question. Wink may very well be the biggest loss of all this year. Bowen's defense in that first game reminded me a lot of the vaunted James Bettcher defense - a bend but don't break defense that breaks as much as it bends.
As to 2022, once Daboll put the team on his back in the Titans game by getting in DJ's face after that brutal fourth quarter interception and then had the courage to go for the two point conversion with Barkley, that locker room was fully bought in for the season. But it began with the belief that Daboll could get the team to win with a quarterback like DJ. Once that illusion was shattered, first by the Eagles playoff game, and then when DJ was rewarded with a ridiculously overvalued contract while Barkley was simultaneously completely disrespected, the locker room was lost.
im gonna push back on this a little bit. they came back against arizona last year, they actually hung in against SF on that TNF game without barkley better than they did this past week at home vs darnold. When Barkley came back they almost beat BUF. then they rallied late season with him and beat gb/phi, almost beat lar too.
i dont think anyone quit on daboll through 2 years and that is probably the biggest reason he got to year 3.
terps made a good point about hard knocks yesterday and how even when it came to supporting jones they were so feeble and lacking conviction. add to that how they misjudged the market for what was clearly their best player the last 2 years. its possible that we are seeing the quitting conditions hit a perfect storm right now in real time as jones implodes, barkley wins player of the week, and the defense regresses. either daboll leads them out of this with answers or he's done.
Fair enough. I still think the Arizona game was more about Jonathan Gannon going into a prevent and letting DJ become a seven on seven quarterback. And we were never in the SF game. But we can both agree that from that moment of the pick six against Seattle, the locker room had given up completely on DJ.
The latter season games you mention were with Tyrod and DeVito when I would argue that the locker room got back to believing in Daboll and his magic. As I said, Daboll's only chance now is to somehow get Lock or DeVito in there and possibly recreate the energy of those late season games.
And agree completely with Terps about Hard Knocks. When Daboll said "so I guess were running it back with DJ?", he looked like Captain Smith on the Titanic saying "so I guess it's women and children first on the lifeboats?"
Breida's td run made the SF game 12-17 in the 3rd Q
and entering the 4th it was 20-12. i agree functionally it was a less competitive game than that.
but you know what was even less competitive? being down 21-3 first drive after halftime to the guy who was the SF backup QB last year, at home, with no injuries and full rest (as opposed to TNF).
what we saw on sunday was a mixture of ideal conditions (health, home, year 3 with a roster they've fully turned over) and putrid results that just felt orders of magnitude worse than anything prior with this regime. it was the death rattle we saw with the 3 prior failed post-coughlin regimes.
Daboll won COY by making chicken salad out of a chicken shit quarterback. And he deserves all of the credit in doing so. The mistake was believing at the moment of truth that DJ was anything more than a backup talent and being all-in with Schoen on that contract, as the asshats have confirmed this week. After last year, to now be content with Lock and DeVito as being sufficient to support our chicken shit quarterback, particularly when the "coach up Lock the way he coached up Allen" thesis has been proven to be pure nonsense, is nothing less than a fireable offense.
Daboll's only chance to survive is if he benches DJ asap, to at least win back the locker room, and is somehow able to get this team to win with either Lock or DeVito. Which would reestablish his magician like ability to make chicken salad again. But given the schedule and current state of the team, this would be the a Houdini act for the ages. Meaning, it is a virtual certainty that Daboll, and hopefully Schoen too, will be fired either at the end of the year, or better yet, prior to the trade deadline to ensure that decisions this year are properly made with a focus on the future and rebuilding this team. Yet again.
Well, per Hard Knocks, Daboll was into trading up for Daniels and Maye. In fact, he sounded very resolute about getting Daniels.
But, alas, his boss couldn't figure that trade part out. If you want to say he was complicit in that failure, fine.
Once Schoen failed, what did we expect Daboll to say going forward? He has to deal with the card dealt and move on.
I would bet if you hooked Daboll to a polygraph, he would come clean on his feeling for Jones - he's not what I want to make this work...
RE: Breida's td run made the SF game 12-17 in the 3rd Q
and entering the 4th it was 20-12. i agree functionally it was a less competitive game than that.
but you know what was even less competitive? being down 21-3 first drive after halftime to the guy who was the SF backup QB last year, at home, with no injuries and full rest (as opposed to TNF).
what we saw on sunday was a mixture of ideal conditions (health, home, year 3 with a roster they've fully turned over) and putrid results that just felt orders of magnitude worse than anything prior with this regime. it was the death rattle we saw with the 3 prior failed post-coughlin regimes.
No argument here - Sunday was right up there with the very worst of McAdoo, Shurmur and Judge.
if you offer him total control tomorrow, that's something dallas probably wouldnt even do if/when they fire mccarthy. is he passing on that?
Pipedream...There is NFW I see Mara ever giving BB the set up and structure we had in New England.
I wonder if BB wouldn't go into an interview demanding the exact same structure he had in New England. Maybe he's open to a more "traditional" structure. I would prefer the SF model, where BB picks his GM, though; NOT Mara!
RE: RE: RE: so who wants to make the call to belichick?
I wonder if BB wouldn't go into an interview demanding the exact same structure he had in New England. Maybe he's open to a more "traditional" structure. I would prefer the SF model, where BB picks his GM, though; NOT Mara!
Now, that is right my alley. Let the HC, ala Shanahan in San Fran, handpick his GM.
That is the correct reporting structure in my view. GM reports to HC and HC reports to the Owner(s).
Giants and getting a rookie might take awhile. But, you never know. People getting to the finish line have very personal motivations imo.
Of course Belichick was a terrible GM at the end, but if Mara is going to dump both Schoen and Daboll to go after Belichick, the chances are high it will wind up being both jobs.
Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, but that's the end way of the Giants these days.
But if he really just wanted to break the wins record, why in the world would he come here? It would have to be a labor of love.
73 years old to START the next rebuild when the Belichick name has lost it's luster? Pass.
BB is chasing Shula and more Lombardi trophies. Right now, this place isn't close for a 73 old HC.
If Jacksonville struggles, I could see BB there with Lawrence.
If I'm Spags, I wonder if I wait until Reid retires.
That's BB's 23-year-old girlfriend.
At some point, you lose your fastball. Maybe BB needed a year off to recharge his batteries and freshen up his perspective. But the odds are, he's simply over the hill. And it seems like the principle benefit of hiring him will be to make fans (especially lifers) feel better about the state of the franchise being in the dumper.
It's the only way to generate any sort of hope for the fans this season. This season seems to be shot already, and we'll have to watch a horrible QB ruin the hopes for the fans again.
belichick is the easy button. if this thing implodes id be surprised if he doesnt press it.
Getting Nelson Rockefeller vibes.
belichick is the easy button. if this thing implodes id be surprised if he doesnt press it.
I'm sure nostalgia will roll in like a hurricane if we get to the point. But, again, what's the strategy at QB for a 73-year-old HC chasing big trophies?
The solution isn't currently on the roster. Do we trust BB to draft one? And the free agency market, especially with Dak now out, isn't a bumper crop in 2025...
I just think he would be looking to do what Brady did. Find a ready-to-win-now team.
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mara is very much swayed by public opinion. that's why he went the schoen/daboll route when he preferred flores even before schoen.
belichick is the easy button. if this thing implodes id be surprised if he doesnt press it.
I'm sure nostalgia will roll in like a hurricane if we get to the point. But, again, what's the strategy at QB for a 73-year-old HC chasing big trophies?
The solution isn't currently on the roster. Do we trust BB to draft one? And the free agency market, especially with Dak now out, isn't a bumper crop in 2025...
I just think he would be looking to do what Brady did. Find a ready-to-win-now team.
I would probably trust him to draft a QB. Not sure I'd trust him to develop that guy.
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mara is very much swayed by public opinion. that's why he went the schoen/daboll route when he preferred flores even before schoen.
belichick is the easy button. if this thing implodes id be surprised if he doesnt press it.
I'm sure nostalgia will roll in like a hurricane if we get to the point. But, again, what's the strategy at QB for a 73-year-old HC chasing big trophies?
The solution isn't currently on the roster. Do we trust BB to draft one? And the free agency market, especially with Dak now out, isn't a bumper crop in 2025...
I just think he would be looking to do what Brady did. Find a ready-to-win-now team.
he may. ive long expected him to land in dallas when mccarthy inevitably craps out again. but bb saw last year, there are no givens. he went for jobs and didnt get them. if an owner he respected offered him total control before a better job is open, would he pass on it? he learned last year unlike brady he's not assured to find what he wants.
re the second question do i trust BB to find the next QB? no i dont. but i also dont have the name of someone id trust more than him either, so that's kind of a useless question. mcvay and reid are probably the 2 guys id trust to do that and they arent available.
so im willing to settle for a guy who will bring in a lot of winning traits, a winning attitude, at minimum probably get the defense back into the top 10 consistently, and hopefully find the next versions of caserio, mayo, vrabel, bob, types to keep the organization moving in the right direction after he hopefully gets things back on track.
i would hope he is coming in with an offensive plan built around finding a way to steal from what has worked so well with the shanahan/mcvay guys. ryans, mcdaniel, koc, etc.
1) I still think BB can coach.
2) He LOVES the Giants organization. Watch his 'Football Life' or the 'Two Bills' 30 for 30. It is so obvious how much love he has for the franchise.
3) I think the idea of BB 'returning home' is strong with Mara.
Also, bringing in BB brings immediate credibility to the Giant. Immediate. He's the HC GOAT. As long as he's not playing GM too-I still think BB the GM killed BB the HC in Foxoboro-I'm fine with bringing him on. & yes, I'd like to talk to him about the succession plan post him because he's no spring chicken obviously.
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mara is very much swayed by public opinion. that's why he went the schoen/daboll route when he preferred flores even before schoen.
belichick is the easy button. if this thing implodes id be surprised if he doesnt press it.
I'm sure nostalgia will roll in like a hurricane if we get to the point. But, again, what's the strategy at QB for a 73-year-old HC chasing big trophies?
The solution isn't currently on the roster. Do we trust BB to draft one? And the free agency market, especially with Dak now out, isn't a bumper crop in 2025...
I just think he would be looking to do what Brady did. Find a ready-to-win-now team.
To me the strategy needs to move away from building everything around the QB. Just because they move on from Jones doesn't mean QB is solved. (And let's see them move on from Jones first before we assume anything, by the way)
If I'm running the Giants I try to get back to the roots of the two good eras most of us have seen: focus on building a big, powerful team dominated by OL and DL.
This organization needs an overarching goal statement, so how about something I heard Phil Simms say to Chris Russo last fall:
Fast teams slow down late in the season. Big teams don't get smaller.
Build a big strong team that will be able to compete in the northeast in December and January. Focus prime resources (Day 1 and 2 picks, prime FA money) on OL and DL who are big and powerful by NFL standards. The Giants' two best players fit this description, one on each side of the line. Build around them with more people like them. All along keep an eye open for a QB, but do it like Pittsburgh - stay cheap until it's time not to be. Treat the position like an actual meritocracy. Draft one every year, but don't crown anyone.
To go along with this, hire a head coach who knows something about line play. Possible current coordinators off the top of my head include Arthur Smith, Vic Fangio, and Greg Roman; I'm sure there are others that make sense.
Of all the dumb shit said on Hard Knocks there was one moment of clarity from, of all people, Tim Mccdonell: what is our identity?
This would be a start.
he turned dallas around and put them on the track that wade phillips and jason garrett took advantage of. he drafted witten, ware, and found/groomed romo. beefed up their physicality 10-fold. signed leonard davis and just started smashing people with the OL and they havent stopped doing that since.
he flipped dallas from a 5 win team to a 9-10 win team with the foundation that became a 13 win team before they started regressing and fired wade for garrett. will mcclay started in dallas just 1 year ahead of parcells and that was just his 3rd year in an nfl gig so id imagine he learned a good amount under him. he got promoted to pro scouting coordinator a couple years after parcells left. mcclay's first nfl job was ironically in 2001 jax, under coughlin i think.
when parcells went to the dolphins FO a few years later he was close to belichick's age - and he helped turn a 1 win team the year before into an 11 win team the next year (even though sparano eventually proved to be a dud).
if someone has a better option than BB im all ears. vrabel is a compelling alternative but im not hiring a first timer again. no way no how. i felt that way 2 years ago when they hired daboll too and the fact that he won us all over hook line sinker same as mcadoo only makes me feel that way more absolutely this time around if things implode again.
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In comment 16607087 Eric on Li said:
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mara is very much swayed by public opinion. that's why he went the schoen/daboll route when he preferred flores even before schoen.
belichick is the easy button. if this thing implodes id be surprised if he doesnt press it.
I'm sure nostalgia will roll in like a hurricane if we get to the point. But, again, what's the strategy at QB for a 73-year-old HC chasing big trophies?
The solution isn't currently on the roster. Do we trust BB to draft one? And the free agency market, especially with Dak now out, isn't a bumper crop in 2025...
I just think he would be looking to do what Brady did. Find a ready-to-win-now team.
To me the strategy needs to move away from building everything around the QB. Just because they move on from Jones doesn't mean QB is solved. (And let's see them move on from Jones first before we assume anything, by the way)
If I'm running the Giants I try to get back to the roots of the two good eras most of us have seen: focus on building a big, powerful team dominated by OL and DL.
This organization needs an overarching goal statement, so how about something I heard Phil Simms say to Chris Russo last fall:
Fast teams slow down late in the season. Big teams don't get smaller.
Build a big strong team that will be able to compete in the northeast in December and January. Focus prime resources (Day 1 and 2 picks, prime FA money) on OL and DL who are big and powerful by NFL standards. The Giants' two best players fit this description, one on each side of the line. Build around them with more people like them. All along keep an eye open for a QB, but do it like Pittsburgh - stay cheap until it's time not to be. Treat the position like an actual meritocracy. Draft one every year, but don't crown anyone.
To go along with this, hire a head coach who knows something about line play. Possible current coordinators off the top of my head include Arthur Smith, Vic Fangio, and Greg Roman; I'm sure there are others that make sense.
Of all the dumb shit said on Hard Knocks there was one moment of clarity from, of all people, Tim Mccdonell: what is our identity?
This would be a start.
this has been my justification for harbough (then flores) since mcadoo failed. we've had so many coaching searches i cant remember the timing of all of them, but i think saban was even rumored interested at one point.
losing in embarrassing ways is so calcified in this organization at this point let's just get back to playing non-embarassing football even if it's ugly and .500ish.
before eli took off, that's basically what coughlin accomplished. nobody was satisfied with it but that foundation is what allowed the team to then win SB's after eli took off.
that's my pov too. id hope either has a smart plan for what they'd do offensively/schematically, but beggars cant be choosers. if we cant beat teams lets at least find someone who will put up some fight.
he may. ive long expected him to land in dallas when mccarthy inevitably craps out again. but bb saw last year, there are no givens. he went for jobs and didnt get them. if an owner he respected offered him total control before a better job is open, would he pass on it? he learned last year unlike brady he's not assured to find what he wants.
re the second question do i trust BB to find the next QB? no i dont. but i also dont have the name of someone id trust more than him either, so that's kind of a useless question. mcvay and reid are probably the 2 guys id trust to do that and they arent available.
so im willing to settle for a guy who will bring in a lot of winning traits, a winning attitude, at minimum probably get the defense back into the top 10 consistently, and hopefully find the next versions of caserio, mayo, vrabel, bob, types to keep the organization moving in the right direction after he hopefully gets things back on track.
i would hope he is coming in with an offensive plan built around finding a way to steal from what has worked so well with the shanahan/mcvay guys. ryans, mcdaniel, koc, etc.
Agreed on Dallas. Obviously, there are no sure things, but they are definitely one of these teams that could be an "add Belichick and stir" for a championship contender right away.
While I'm not a big Dak guy because of his playoff struggles, maybe BB could be the talisman to get him to that next level. And for a defensive wizard like BB, Dallas has a lot of parts in place on D already.
And I agree on all the positives BB could install, and his impact on the culture. I love the guy and think he's been unfairly maligned for what he actually built during the Brady era.
But if it's nostalgia and love vs. winning more trophies, I would bet BB takes the road for the latter.
The math doesn’t add up.
A coach is dead in the water without a good QB, with the exception of maybe two to three head coaches in the league right now.
But he is 73 years old. So in my mind, no. He was flat out awful last few years in NE. He drove Brady away - think about that.
But is it realistic? Yes it is.
Look, at the end of the day, the NFL is a talent acquisition business. And right now, alas, it seems like we just can't find the right people to find that and further develop it.
I actually think your better idea was this off-season and making a serious run at Harbaugh. Do you think he would have gone into the April draft content to stick with #8?
Yeah, we beat them when it mattered, but that was a tough, solid team with a very clear identity.
Look, at the end of the day, the NFL is a talent acquisition business. And right now, alas, it seems like we just can't find the right people to find that and further develop it.
I actually think your better idea was this off-season and making a serious run at Harbaugh. Do you think he would have gone into the April draft content to stick with #8?
I'm not saying didn't go for the high level QB. If the opportunity arises, do it. I just think this is the way to tread water (and possibly better) until that QB arrives.
Start out like Pittsburgh is now, with the goal being to become what Harbaugh is building in LA.
BB is chasing Shula and more Lombardi trophies. Right now, this place isn't close for a 73 old HC.
If Jacksonville struggles, I could see BB there with Lawrence.
Look, at the end of the day, the NFL is a talent acquisition business. And right now, alas, it seems like we just can't find the right people to find that and further develop it.
I actually think your better idea was this off-season and making a serious run at Harbaugh. Do you think he would have gone into the April draft content to stick with #8?
defense has somehow started making a comeback. even andy reid has been investing more on defense than offense in the last several years. they've been top 10 in points allowed pretty much every year since 2019, and last year they were 2nd. all of the 4 acfcg/nfcg were the best defenses.
since the 2012 CBA a lot of things have evolved. there was a lot of change in a short period of time. chasing QB gurus has been popular bc most of those changes slanted toward the offense initially but im not entirely sure it's been effective outside the shanahan system (mcvay, mcdaniels, koc).
carroll, tomlin, vrabel, belichick, mcdermott, john harbough, now ryans, dan campbell. now jim harbough. bowles has done a good job.
we'll see how raheem, macdonald, mayo, quinn, (and eberflus/allen/saleh) do this year, but there's been more of a renaissance with defensive head coaches than people realize.
defense has somehow started making a comeback. even andy reid has been investing more on defense than offense in the last several years. they've been top 10 in points allowed pretty much every year since 2019, and last year they were 2nd. all of the 4 acfcg/nfcg were the best defenses.
since the 2012 CBA a lot of things have evolved. there was a lot of change in a short period of time. chasing QB gurus has been popular bc most of those changes slanted toward the offense initially but im not entirely sure it's been effective outside the shanahan system (mcvay, mcdaniels, koc).
carroll, tomlin, vrabel, belichick, mcdermott, john harbough, now ryans, dan campbell. now jim harbough. bowles has done a good job.
we'll see how raheem, macdonald, mayo, quinn, (and eberflus/allen/saleh) do this year, but there's been more of a renaissance with defensive head coaches than people realize.
Yeah, those are good observations. We saw some signs last year with the defenses staying ahead of the offenses most of the season (I think). And this past weekend the defenses seemed to have the advantage again.
But I don't know if we are in a defensive resurgence or if we are seeing a dip in quality QB play. Could be a combination of both.
I either read or heard that DCs are using more zone and double-high safeties to limit splash plays, force patience, and concede FGs over TDs. Nothing ground-breaking, but the adjustments are occurring.
Sorry... Spags has already proved that he not a good head coach.
Great D Coordinator
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defense has somehow started making a comeback. even andy reid has been investing more on defense than offense in the last several years. they've been top 10 in points allowed pretty much every year since 2019, and last year they were 2nd. all of the 4 acfcg/nfcg were the best defenses.
since the 2012 CBA a lot of things have evolved. there was a lot of change in a short period of time. chasing QB gurus has been popular bc most of those changes slanted toward the offense initially but im not entirely sure it's been effective outside the shanahan system (mcvay, mcdaniels, koc).
carroll, tomlin, vrabel, belichick, mcdermott, john harbough, now ryans, dan campbell. now jim harbough. bowles has done a good job.
we'll see how raheem, macdonald, mayo, quinn, (and eberflus/allen/saleh) do this year, but there's been more of a renaissance with defensive head coaches than people realize.
Yeah, those are good observations. We saw some signs last year with the defenses staying ahead of the offenses most of the season (I think). And this past weekend the defenses seemed to have the advantage again.
But I don't know if we are in a defensive resurgence or if we are seeing a dip in quality QB play. Could be a combination of both.
I either read or heard that DCs are using more zone and double-high safeties to limit splash plays, force patience, and concede FGs over TDs. Nothing ground-breaking, but the adjustments are occurring.
the 2 macro trends around the league other than the basics (mahomes = good) are the shanahan offenses using pre-snap motion and defenses playing 2 high zones exactly as you described. spags and mcdermott at the top of those charts.
guessing how the next trends evolve seems difficult, id rather get someone like harbough who once again looks on track to succeed his own way because he just knows how to win by building a physical football team.
Totally agree.
From what I'd heard, the BB ship sailed a decade ago.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
1. The Giants don't presently have a QB, and more importantly...
2. I don't think they have an intelligent method in place to get a quarterback
I go back to Eli...the more I look at how that went down the dumber the Giants look in retrospect for that trade. It worked out, but it was a COLOSSAL gamble in an era where the number one pick instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league. I think that was a case of a flawed process yielding a good result. Based on the Jones experience I fear that is going to be their approach at QB: go all in on a guy and hope he works out.
I think the way to best control for that is to build a big, strong team whose reliance on the QB is minimized as much as possible. The two current models that come into my mind most are Pittsburgh and Detroit. Goff is a good player though not top shelf, and obviously Fields/Wilson are below that. Despite that those teams have strong frameworks elsewhere that can help carry those imperfect QBs to good things.
I think that might be the best way to go for the Giants. I don't see this team ever playing basketball on grass distributing to speedsters like Nabers and Hyatt. I say get back to the roots. Let's own what we have been under the Maras when things were good, because I don't see the Giants competing with those teams that understand state of the art offense.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
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nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
That's my point; it isn't a novel approach. I didn't think this organization is suited to handle novel approaches. I think they are kidding themselves into thinking they can find the next Shanahan or McVay; I expect that Shanahan or McVay would have ended up another McAdoo or Daboll had they gone to the Giants.
1. The Giants don't presently have a QB, and more importantly...
2. I don't think they have an intelligent method in place to get a quarterback
I go back to Eli...the more I look at how that went down the dumber the Giants look in retrospect for that trade. It worked out, but it was a COLOSSAL gamble in an era where the number one pick instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league. I think that was a case of a flawed process yielding a good result. Based on the Jones experience I fear that is going to be their approach at QB: go all in on a guy and hope he works out.
I think the way to best control for that is to build a big, strong team whose reliance on the QB is minimized as much as possible. The two current models that come into my mind most are Pittsburgh and Detroit. Goff is a good player though not top shelf, and obviously Fields/Wilson are below that. Despite that those teams have strong frameworks elsewhere that can help carry those imperfect QBs to good things.
I think that might be the best way to go for the Giants. I don't see this team ever playing basketball on grass distributing to speedsters like Nabers and Hyatt. I say get back to the roots. Let's own what we have been under the Maras when things were good, because I don't see the Giants competing with those teams that understand state of the art offense.
I hear you on that and I'd be good with that strategy. The problem is that I don't think the Giants are ever going to have a plus personnel department. So I don't know if we'd ever accrue the advantages of saving $$ on the QB position.
I'm coming to the perspective that the model is good QB/great WR + some talent on D (ideally an elite pass rusher) I think that can make you a 2nd tier contender and have enough upside volatility to go deep in the playoffs. This is sort of the current Bengals and 2011 Giants model. Getting the WR and defensive player isn't that hard. And we might have both. You just have to get lucky at QB. Admittedly, that's not much of a plan, but I think that's the best we can hope for.
Harbaugh would have been a great hire who always stressed building top lines as a foundation everywhere he has been. Like TC, he also believes you build the offense off a strong running game primarily with RB's. Just like Det/SF do now.
1. The Giants don't presently have a QB, and more importantly...
2. I don't think they have an intelligent method in place to get a quarterback
I go back to Eli...the more I look at how that went down the dumber the Giants look in retrospect for that trade. It worked out, but it was a COLOSSAL gamble in an era where the number one pick instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league. I think that was a case of a flawed process yielding a good result. Based on the Jones experience I fear that is going to be their approach at QB: go all in on a guy and hope he works out.
I think the way to best control for that is to build a big, strong team whose reliance on the QB is minimized as much as possible. The two current models that come into my mind most are Pittsburgh and Detroit. Goff is a good player though not top shelf, and obviously Fields/Wilson are below that. Despite that those teams have strong frameworks elsewhere that can help carry those imperfect QBs to good things.
I think that might be the best way to go for the Giants. I don't see this team ever playing basketball on grass distributing to speedsters like Nabers and Hyatt. I say get back to the roots. Let's own what we have been under the Maras when things were good, because I don't see the Giants competing with those teams that understand state of the art offense.
I agree and have said this in the past. Build a team and then get whatever mobile QB with a decent arm is there in the draft, like a Bo Nix.
In fact, I said view QBs as expendable - 4 or 5 years and trade or let go. Keeps the ridiculous QB contracts off the cap number.
Obviously if you find Mahomes #2, keep him.
But, frankly, nobody has an airtight plan for QB. Most teams luck into a QB whether it be with the #1 or #2 pick of the draft or Shanahan with Purdy. Then there are injuries. Paying these guys $50 mill per with $150/$200 mill gtd is crazy when one unfortunate hit can end a career.
However, I don't want him anywhere near GM duties, and I don't know how you get a younger GM to resist deferring to him.
They'd have to sort that out.
However, I don't want him anywhere near GM duties, and I don't know how you get a younger GM to resist deferring to him.
They'd have to sort that out.
That is exactly the problem. Combine that with 73 years old and where does that leave a team 3 years down the road.
Also, remember, we have folks here on BBI that want the GM subservient to the HC - the GM drafts or signs players as per instructions of the HC. That is what BB would want/do.
Harbaugh would have been a great hire who always stressed building top lines as a foundation everywhere he has been. Like TC, he also believes you build the offense off a strong running game primarily with RB's. Just like Det/SF do now.
They have the best OT and best DT in the NFL. Stop acting like they’ve ignored the fronts
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In comment 16607374 Eric on Li said:
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nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
There were back channel messages exchanged after TC was fired.
This franchise is just wasting time right now. And adding BB in an effort to reset the clock would just be doing more of the same.
Until someone gets serious in that building about investing in the QB position in a smart fashion this franchise will remain stuck in the mud.
No GM we can bring in can work past those handicaps other than BB. The problem is that BB is an incredibly good coach, but a poor talent evaluator. As mentioned, if BB is coaching this team, he is the GM whether he is given that title or not. Nobody is telling him to get out of the draft room or pipe down.
The Giants should be following the model Campbell did in Detroit. If you can't win the battle for offensive innovation in the modern NFL, you change the game and you go the opposite direction. You focus on the Oline and the running game, and you grab a QB to develop and a middling vet in FA to play until he is ready.
I don't love the idea of hiring a 73 year old to take over the operations, but I am going to go the opposite of Bitey's point yesterday - we need a historian not another innovator. This organization is not built for innovation.
I would say he would be a less realistic option. Mara may want him stuffed and mounted in the HC's office as inspiration.
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Until someone gets serious in that building about investing in the QB position in a smart fashion this franchise will remain stuck in the mud.
They just need a functional QB. I watched Miami's backup come in and make some plays or at least get the ball out near the open receiver most of the time.
I think there is enough on the Giants right now, that a functional QB makes them a .500 team.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
No GM we can bring in can work past those handicaps other than BB. The problem is that BB is an incredibly good coach, but a poor talent evaluator. As mentioned, if BB is coaching this team, he is the GM whether he is given that title or not. Nobody is telling him to get out of the draft room or pipe down.
The Giants should be following the model Campbell did in Detroit. If you can't win the battle for offensive innovation in the modern NFL, you change the game and you go the opposite direction. You focus on the Oline and the running game, and you grab a QB to develop and a middling vet in FA to play until he is ready.
I don't love the idea of hiring a 73 year old to take over the operations, but I am going to go the opposite of Bitey's point yesterday - we need a historian not another innovator. This organization is not built for innovation.
Also agree with the comments. Until the operation is completely turned over to football people who actually know how to build a world class organization, the Giants are screwed. The only time this happened in the last 50+ years is when the Giants were forced to do this. Any success we've had in the last 40 years is despite the Maras & family, not because of them. They think it is the other way around.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
Based on Detroit's OL and the Giants OL looking functional for the first time in ages, this seems like the position group where you'd want to allocate dollars on vets rather than rely on the draft, since everyone is saying that colleges don't reliably develop OL anymore. Let that crapshoot be someone else's problem.
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Until someone gets serious in that building about investing in the QB position in a smart fashion this franchise will remain stuck in the mud.
They just need a functional QB. I watched Miami's backup come in and make some plays or at least get the ball out near the open receiver most of the time.
I think there is enough on the Giants right now, that a functional QB makes them a .500 team.
I don't disagree they need something functional to operate at QB, but that should be supplemented with an eval/invest process on QBs in the draft. And this needs to happen every year (or almost every year). And not just perfunctory, there needs to be some risks and prospects taken.
BB is not needed for this.
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unless he dies before next season. if he dies he is not a realistic option.
I would say he would be a less realistic option. Mara may want him stuffed and mounted in the HC's office as inspiration.
lol, still an option to be HC as a mounted head. I agree.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
The Giants have two top-10 picks and a second round pick in the last 4 years invested in the line. The difference between the Giants and the Lions is not the investments or timing, it is the results.
This is not a failure of approach, it is a failure of execution.
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Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
Based on Detroit's OL and the Giants OL looking functional for the first time in ages, this seems like the position group where you'd want to allocate dollars on vets rather than rely on the draft, since everyone is saying that colleges don't reliably develop OL anymore. Let that crapshoot be someone else's problem.
I agree with signing FA oline vets. Even the best intentions in the draft are a crapshoot. Evan Neal is a perfect example. Virtually a perfect pedigree and right now he is no where near a functional NFL lineman. (I still blame Bobby Johnson mostly)
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
Based on Detroit's OL and the Giants OL looking functional for the first time in ages, this seems like the position group where you'd want to allocate dollars on vets rather than rely on the draft, since everyone is saying that colleges don't reliably develop OL anymore. Let that crapshoot be someone else's problem.
That or be committed to drafting mid round lineman have them develop in the pro game over 2-3 years.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
The Giants have two top-10 picks and a second round pick in the last 4 years invested in the line. The difference between the Giants and the Lions is not the investments or timing, it is the results.
This is not a failure of approach, it is a failure of execution.
It's a failure in execution that impacts timing.
They don't have a time machine to go grab two starters from the 2016 draft.
Maybe 5 years from now, we'll look back at the longevity of Thomas, JMS, and Neal and their respective early struggles will be a distant memory.
But from a team building perspective, I don't think the Giants are in a position to do what Detroit accomplished 8 years ago.
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its basically the buffalo approach. or vrabel. or belichick. or harbaugh.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
That's my point; it isn't a novel approach. I didn't think this organization is suited to handle novel approaches. I think they are kidding themselves into thinking they can find the next Shanahan or McVay; I expect that Shanahan or McVay would have ended up another McAdoo or Daboll had they gone to the Giants.
we agree again - but the odds show most have been kidding themselves thinking they could find another mcvay/shanahan. except basically all the guys who had been on that one specific staff who have worked out and a few of their direct disciples.
The two best players on this team are Thomas and Lawrence. You have a huge building block on each line right now. Lean into those strengths. You added Burns to the Dline who should help. Hopefully JMS becomes a strength at C. The it is up to the staff to get something out of Neal and Thibs or move on from them. But this team could have an excellent line in the next 2-3 years with the right investments.
Let's face it, this team has been plugging holes for the better part of the last two decades. It is time to commit to a plan instead of trying to plus holes and hope to sneak into the playoffs now and again when everything breaks right for you.
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In comment 16607379 JonC said:
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In comment 16607374 Eric on Li said:
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nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
There were back channel messages exchanged after TC was fired.
im gonna call some mild bs on this - not on you or your credibility just on the quality and likelihood of the info relayed to you. a timeline:
January 4 2016
- Coughlin resigns, Reese remains
- defending SB champion NE on a bye week as 2 seed having gone 12-4
January 14 2016
- Giants hire Ben Mcadoo
January 16 / 24 2016
- NE beats KC 27-20, setting up January 24 AFCCG vs #1 seed Peyton Manning and Denver Broncos, which they lost 20-18.
Could they have checked in with BB during his bye week? sure. but what are the odds any non-parcells non-scumbag would seriously consider any move like that mid-dynasty?
a year later on 2/5/17 NE won super bowl 51 vs seattle on malcolm butlers INT and belichick's famous non-timeout, and then 2 years after that on 2/3/19 they won super bowl 53 vs the Rams.
forget the giants, how likely does it seem that belichick would have responded to any overture at that time or that kraft would have allowed it for anything short of the multiple first round picks he paid as compensation to jets?
That is accurate, but will also never happen. The Maras see them as part of the solution, not the problem.
And to be honest none of us know if those guys are any good at what they do. But the point you made is the reason they need to go - they are not accountable to anyone and their continued employment is not contingent on their performance, only their names.
Offensively, the plan is crystal clear. Build a strong pass protecting offensive line and a stable of pass catchers who can catch and run.
If you re-watch the pass plays from the Vikings game, read the reviews, and read the grading outlets -- they did a good job pass protecting. That part of the plan is working out.
If you apply that same rubric to the receivers, they looked and graded to be open as well. That part of the plan appears capable of working.
They don't need to put their head in the sand and wait for a Mahomes. They just need someone who isn't arguably the very worst starter in the league at QB.
All Pass Plays - ( New Window )
At his age, I see something like 2 years. Maybe he does a good job coaching and we are a fundamentally sound team and we have 2 seasons that are like 8-9 and 9-8. The he retires and we start over again. Something like this seems to be by far the most likely outcome.
Sewell was campbell's first draft pick in his rookie season. picked 7th overall.
jonah jackson was a 3rd round pick from 2020 he inheritted. he was picked 75th overall so lower than both JMS/Ezeudu and not by campbell.
vaitai had been a UFA signing from Philly.
yes that is 3rd year Evan Brown who was a nyg UDFA signing under Gettleman.
and yes that is 2024 giants training camp cyclist matt nelson who stepped in for half the season to play T when Decker was injured.
jackson, vaitai, and brown have all moved on and he replaced them with draft picks and zeitler. yes inheriting decker/ragnow was a big help, as was their staying healthier in future seasons, but this nyg regime and the next will inherit their own version of at least decker with thomas.
At his age, I see something like 2 years. Maybe he does a good job coaching and we are a fundamentally sound team and we have 2 seasons that are like 8-9 and 9-8. The he retires and we start over again. Something like this seems to be by far the most likely outcome.
how does parcells dallas work for you as a model?
in the 3 years prior to parcells, they went 15-33.
in the 4 years he coached them, they went 34-30 with 3 winning seasons.
but in those 4 years he entirely rebuild their physicality, especially on the OL, and that has now been their calling card as a franchise for almost 2 full decades. will mcclays first year as a pro scout for dallas was the year before parcells got there. think those 4 years he was there with him didnt help inform how well he's continue to build their roster since? he's been their defacto gm since 2016/2017 and before that was their director of both pro/amateur scouting as they were drafting guys like martin, fredrick, lawrence, etc.
even with a crappy head coach like wade phillips they won 13 games the year after parcells left because he had built a foundation over his 4 years there with ware, witten, romo, the OL, etc. he gave them a blueprint that to their credit they've continued to copy effectively.
Hopefully the Giants are entering the stage Detroit was in 2021. A unit that had aspirations to be in the top 3rd and has a few cornerstone players already there.
Hopefully the Giants are entering the stage Detroit was in 2021. A unit that had aspirations to be in the top 3rd and has a few cornerstone players already there.
Adding a cerebral QB doesn’t hurt either
The Dallas that hasn't so much as played in a conference title game? That Dallas?
Hopefully the Giants are entering the stage Detroit was in 2021. A unit that had aspirations to be in the top 3rd and has a few cornerstone players already there.
they had 3.5 new starters in dan campbell's first year because of injuries to decker and ragnow.
of course they weren't all rookies, some of them had been in the NFL for a long time. That is scouting, development, coaching. campbell's playing career was built entirely on blocking and he emphasized OL from day 1 getting his first pick right with Sewell.
he didnt even go out and hire a fancy OL coach, he kept hank fraley from the prior staff in just his 2nd year as OL coach.
each year they lost 1-2 starters to FA or upgraded those positions. this past year when they lost jonah jackson they replaced him with zeitler. glasgow is on a pretty modest glowinski sized contract. campbell brought a physical play with your hair on fire mindset and emphasis from day 1, and wasnt afraid to draft lower positional value players who fit that.
At his age, I see something like 2 years. Maybe he does a good job coaching and we are a fundamentally sound team and we have 2 seasons that are like 8-9 and 9-8. The he retires and we start over again. Something like this seems to be by far the most likely outcome.
100%.
I've written it a half dozen times the last several days. BB is chasing Shula and another Lombardi at this point. It's a chase for more history. Coming here doesn't improve those chances.
Maybe BB is feeling sentimental and magnanimous and I'm wrong.
But he seems like a super competitive guy itching to win big without Brady. And put a fork in that debate.
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how does parcells dallas work for you as a model?
The Dallas that hasn't so much as played in a conference title game? That Dallas?
Yes exactly that dallas. If Jerry Jones hadnt run off Parcells they probably would have been in the conference title game in 2008 instead of nyg. Or if he'd replaced him with good coaches instead of a bunch of mediocre's like wade, garrett, mccarthy.
but hey tell yourself whatever you want, if you want to equate this franchise being the league's doormat for the last decade and dallas avg'ing like 10 wins a season and winning the division every other year just because they havent figured it out in the postseason by all means.
"sure my honda is a beat up piece of junk that breaks down every week but let's not act like that BMW over there is better because it's definitely not a Rolls Royce"
Acknowledging biological reality is a good thing. Theoretically, some kind of director of football ops would make sense....except that his performance as defacto GM of the Patriots since Brady's departure was pretty bad.
Beat that strawman, baby! It won't try that again!
If you can point out to me where I said that I'd rather be the Giants of recent vintage than the Cowboys of recent vintage, I will gladly retract and apologize. I did not say or even imply that.
This discussion is about what the Giants *should* be going forward, what kind of team we would want them to be. If being a good (not great) regular season team and flopping in the playoffs every single year strikes you as an ideal, then more power to you.
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with Belichick. Do you think he's going to coach for 5 years?
At his age, I see something like 2 years. Maybe he does a good job coaching and we are a fundamentally sound team and we have 2 seasons that are like 8-9 and 9-8. The he retires and we start over again. Something like this seems to be by far the most likely outcome.
100%.
I've written it a half dozen times the last several days. BB is chasing Shula and another Lombardi at this point. It's a chase for more history. Coming here doesn't improve those chances.
Maybe BB is feeling sentimental and magnanimous and I'm wrong.
But he seems like a super competitive guy itching to win big without Brady. And put a fork in that debate.
he is clearly motivated but he just went an offseason getting passed over for how many jobs?
if he gets offered a job with total control on say january 1, before an opportunity like dallas is likely even known to be available or not since they will be in the playoffs, is he passing on it?
if i were john mara id already have him in the tent as a consultant. pay him whatever to confidentially give his honest thoughts on the state of the team. he's doing it publicly for ESPN, cant imagine it's a stretch that he'd do it confidentially if asked by an owner/organization he's declared a public fondness for dozens of times. edelman's comments aren't out of nowhere.
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"sure my honda is a beat up piece of junk that breaks down every week but let's not act like that BMW over there is better because it's definitely not a Rolls Royce"
Beat that strawman, baby! It won't try that again!
If you can point out to me where I said that I'd rather be the Giants of recent vintage than the Cowboys of recent vintage, I will gladly retract and apologize. I did not say or even imply that.
This discussion is about what the Giants *should* be going forward, what kind of team we would want them to be. If being a good (not great) regular season team and flopping in the playoffs every single year strikes you as an ideal, then more power to you.
the strawman is that there's any way to knowingly build a good regular season team that then flops in the playoffs.
i think building a good team is a good idea whatever else happens after that, and dallas has been building good teams since parcells came in.
what happens to said good teams once they get to the playoffs is likely to come down to whether or not whoever the QB/head coach can win big games. andy reid got fired in philly because he built a lot of good regular season teams that didnt win super bowls. he's 66 years old and id gladly take him as coach for the next decade too.
You don't need a Dan Campbell character to project the Giants have made some sound investments in the offensive line and the arrow is pointing in the right direction.
But if you want veins popping and dramatic embarrassing failure in the biggest game of one's tenure, maybe the Giants can just give Daboll an energy drink. He's 50% of the way there.
Dallas has been very good for a long time, they are explosive with big play ability on both sides of the ball. Yes I want that.
I just don't see hiring 73 year old Belichick as the path there. Unless he permanently cleaned out John, Chris, Tim, and whatever other critters are on the way up. If that was the only thing he did, I'd also sign up for that.
In zero ways is that better than hiring a young innovative coach.
and based on your thought process in this thread, you probably would have moved on from him at some point in the 18 seasons before he won with mahomes because he "flopped in the postseason". he only won 1 playoff game in his first 5 years with the chiefs.
A whole bunch of coaches could win Super Bowls with Mahomes. It's not some unique ability of Reid's.
You don't need a Dan Campbell character to project the Giants have made some sound investments in the offensive line and the arrow is pointing in the right direction.
But if you want veins popping and dramatic embarrassing failure in the biggest game of one's tenure, maybe the Giants can just give Daboll an energy drink. He's 50% of the way there.
another strawman. nobody is talking about regime change because of just the OL.
we are talking about regime change because the team got it's dome caved in at home week 1 by sam freaking darnold, continuing a trend of getting rolled over with almost zero pushback for the full decade post-coughlin. over that period of time they have almost never been the more physical team. OL is only a part of that larger reality.
What does drafting Jones have to do with anything?
1. Mara fires coaches after two consecutive bad years (Coughlin had four years because of the 2 super bowls). He bounced from Coughlin to McAdoo to Shurmur to Judge to Daboll. When things went badly with the younger offensive guru in McAdoo he turned to the security blanket of known commodities.
2. Spending on BB would also throw red meat to the disillusioned fan base to generate excitement based on past successes both here and in New England.
3. They are friends and BB would be able to influence Mara to get what he wants, moreso than other owners in the NFL where there may not be the same history
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and based on your thought process in this thread, you probably would have moved on from him at some point in the 18 seasons before he won with mahomes because he "flopped in the postseason". he only won 1 playoff game in his first 5 years with the chiefs.
A whole bunch of coaches could win Super Bowls with Mahomes. It's not some unique ability of Reid's.
It is a unique ability of Reid's to coach Patrick Mahomes only because he was uniquely the one who traded up to draft him while 9 other teams directly passed on him and 21 others didnt trade up for him (all but 4 with picks higher than the 27th pick reid moved up from).
It is also a unique ability of his to have won games in the regular season at a near 60% clip even without Mahomes.
he is clearly motivated but he just went an offseason getting passed over for how many jobs?
if he gets offered a job with total control on say january 1, before an opportunity like dallas is likely even known to be available or not since they will be in the playoffs, is he passing on it?
if i were john mara id already have him in the tent as a consultant. pay him whatever to confidentially give his honest thoughts on the state of the team. he's doing it publicly for ESPN, cant imagine it's a stretch that he'd do it confidentially if asked by an owner/organization he's declared a public fondness for dozens of times. edelman's comments aren't out of nowhere.
Well, you are raising another point/question if BB is even hirable at this point based on his age, his last four years in New England, and the quasi-blacking-balling Kraft has been reported to be doing behind the scenes. Hell, it was reported he didn't even finish in the top three finalists for the ATL job.
So, while there may be limited demand based on all those factors, I'm not convinced BB will just accept any job at the point. Again, my gut tells me he wants the best chance to win as soon as possible.
Which is why he was into the ATL job. They have a lot of pieces in place and play in one of the weaker divisions.
At this point, his best chance is with a team that is close, so that team doesn't have to worry about him impacting personnel. BB comes in and focuses on culture, discipline, and installing his programs.
You should try adding value and not telling people what to do.
The current regime has invested two top 10 picks, a second rounder, and significant money in both the defensive and offensive lines.
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he is clearly motivated but he just went an offseason getting passed over for how many jobs?
if he gets offered a job with total control on say january 1, before an opportunity like dallas is likely even known to be available or not since they will be in the playoffs, is he passing on it?
if i were john mara id already have him in the tent as a consultant. pay him whatever to confidentially give his honest thoughts on the state of the team. he's doing it publicly for ESPN, cant imagine it's a stretch that he'd do it confidentially if asked by an owner/organization he's declared a public fondness for dozens of times. edelman's comments aren't out of nowhere.
Well, you are raising another point/question if BB is even hirable at this point based on his age, his last four years in New England, and the quasi-blacking-balling Kraft has been reported to be doing behind the scenes. Hell, it was reported he didn't even finish in the top three finalists for the ATL job.
So, while there may be limited demand based on all those factors, I'm not convinced BB will just accept any job at the point. Again, my gut tells me he wants the best chance to win as soon as possible.
Which is why he was into the ATL job. They have a lot of pieces in place and play in one of the weaker divisions.
At this point, his best chance is with a team that is close, so that team doesn't have to worry about him impacting personnel. BB comes in and focuses on culture, discipline, and installing his programs.
he went full tilt for the ATL job and i disagree that they had a lot of pieces. they had the 8th pick and obviously didnt have cousins yet so qb was a complete unknown. they had a few recent high draft picks (bijan, london, pitts) but not a ton else. i think he has since even been critical of the extension they gave Terrell.
You don't need a Dan Campbell character to project the Giants have made some sound investments in the offensive line and the arrow is pointing in the right direction.
But if you want veins popping and dramatic embarrassing failure in the biggest game of one's tenure, maybe the Giants can just give Daboll an energy drink. He's 50% of the way there.
another strawman. nobody is talking about regime change because of just the OL.
we are talking about regime change because the team got it's dome caved in at home week 1 by sam freaking darnold, continuing a trend of getting rolled over with almost zero pushback for the full decade post-coughlin. over that period of time they have almost never been the more physical team. OL is only a part of that larger reality.
I'm only discussing the offensive line dip shit.
You feel free to get yourself all revved up about Belichick. I'm sure it will age as well as your previous semi-annual over reactions. It can sit neatly next to demand for Carr and how dangerous Simmons will be as a pass rusher.
Perhaps best to not follow me around.
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Based on the early results, the Giants don't need anyone on fire. The offensive line at a minimum took the first step into functional, and presumably with more time and cohesion, will develop further.
You don't need a Dan Campbell character to project the Giants have made some sound investments in the offensive line and the arrow is pointing in the right direction.
But if you want veins popping and dramatic embarrassing failure in the biggest game of one's tenure, maybe the Giants can just give Daboll an energy drink. He's 50% of the way there.
another strawman. nobody is talking about regime change because of just the OL.
we are talking about regime change because the team got it's dome caved in at home week 1 by sam freaking darnold, continuing a trend of getting rolled over with almost zero pushback for the full decade post-coughlin. over that period of time they have almost never been the more physical team. OL is only a part of that larger reality.
I'm only discussing the offensive line dip shit.
You feel free to get yourself all revved up about Belichick. I'm sure it will age as well as your previous semi-annual over reactions. It can sit neatly next to demand for Carr and how dangerous Simmons will be as a pass rusher.
so go make an OL thread dip shit. last i checked this thread was about Belichick so maybe don't enter if it's going to so trigger you?
btw the simmons thread i made last year that is so etched in your mind was 3.5 months before the gm of this franchise apparently agreed with the idea bc he then actually traded for him. and while they didnt use him pass rushing so much he actually did rate better than most of the rest of the defense in the mostly coverage role they put him in, which is presumably why they resigned him and gave him a raise.
though to be clear at this point having my ideas endorsed by joe schoen probably rates even lower than the fastidious memory of bbi's resident scorekeeper in terms of noteworthy achievements.
the case for trading for isaiah simmons 5/3/23 - ( New Window )
Ben McAdoo
Pat Shurmur
Joe Judge
Simmons called it the trifecta. None of them had any business being a head coach. Shurmur and Judge both in college now. Daboll probably gets fired next.
This is the NY Giants. Think about how bad these recent hires are.
As far as gate keeping, I can only aspire to your heights. You don't solicit a nickname like Receipts on Li without putting in the work. So bravo.
This week the answer is Belichick, I can only guess what will get your worked up into a chart on Monday.
As far as gate keeping, I can only aspire to your heights. You don't solicit a nickname like Receipts on Li without putting in the work. So bravo.
This week the answer is Belichick, I can only guess what will get your worked up into a chart on Monday.
mike in ohio's comment re Campbell came directly off the discussion me and go terps had yesterday and his conclusion was the same as both of ours was - which was pro-BB. my comment agreeing with the point Mike brought up re Campbell was perfectly in context with the thread as evidenced by the fact that I myself had also brought him up prior, and here are the receipts on li for you.
In comment 16607380 Eric on Li said:
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
In comment 16607471 Mike from Ohio said:
No GM we can bring in can work past those handicaps other than BB. The problem is that BB is an incredibly good coach, but a poor talent evaluator. As mentioned, if BB is coaching this team, he is the GM whether he is given that title or not. Nobody is telling him to get out of the draft room or pipe down.
The Giants should be following the model Campbell did in Detroit. If you can't win the battle for offensive innovation in the modern NFL, you change the game and you go the opposite direction. You focus on the Oline and the running game, and you grab a QB to develop and a middling vet in FA to play until he is ready.
I don't love the idea of hiring a 73 year old to take over the operations, but I am going to go the opposite of Bitey's point yesterday - we need a historian not another innovator. This organization is not built for innovation.
i disagreed with your comment below coming off that exactly the same way mike did because both of his posts were exactly right, Detroit didn't pull off some magic unicorn strategy that requires a time machine, Dan Campbell came in and executed with mostly players he inherited. Just as Jim Harbough appears to be doing with LAC without a time machine.
Perhaps best to not follow me around.
Don’t flatter yourself, it’s just dumb to keep non stop yelling about the lines of scrimmage.
Maybe they should run to 36 times a game.
It appears that in point-of-fact you were able to read along, and you did understand Mike and I were talking about one isolated aspect of Campbell's team building.
This might blow your mind, but from time-to-time people will participate in tangential conversations, that don't tie to your tedious and repetitive drivel.
I kind of like Receipts on Li, but I'm also inclined to introduce Eric the Splash Play Machine.
Ben McAdoo
Pat Shurmur
Joe Judge
Simmons called it the trifecta. None of them had any business being a head coach. Shurmur and Judge both in college now. Daboll probably gets fired next.
This is the NY Giants. Think about how bad these recent hires are.
Shurmur had every right to be a NFL HC. He earned his chance as one of the best OCs in football. Lombardi is a total a$$hole.
Sometimes it does not work out, Wade Phillips was easily one of the best DCs in the NFL in the last 30 years. He earned his chance as HC. It did not work out. There are numerous OCs and DCs that were top 5 at there job that earned the right to be HC and it did not work out.
You called it dumb and didn't tell me not to post about it. Good job. However it's 30 not 36. You should know this with the couple hundred posts to me about it. I also went into much more than 30. Have fun continuing with that if you choose.
It appears that in point-of-fact you were able to read along, and you did understand Mike and I were talking about one isolated aspect of Campbell's team building.
This might blow your mind, but from time-to-time people will participate in tangential conversations, that don't tie to your tedious and repetitive drivel.
I kind of like Receipts on Li, but I'm also inclined to introduce Eric the Splash Play Machine.
what i understand is that you played christian the contrarian as usual, made the 'time machine' comment which both mike and myself objected to based on football since this is a football message board, then as has been your habit the last several months a pedantic football discussion, in this case statistics about the detroit lions offensive line, triggers you into name calling and projection.
i'd say you should keep workshopping better nicknames for me because you havent quite hit the mark but im not sure how healthy it is for you to spend any more time thinking about me or my posts.
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They were outlining the head coaching hires since Coughlin. Man, it's depressing.
Ben McAdoo
Pat Shurmur
Joe Judge
Simmons called it the trifecta. None of them had any business being a head coach. Shurmur and Judge both in college now. Daboll probably gets fired next.
This is the NY Giants. Think about how bad these recent hires are.
Shurmur had every right to be a NFL HC. He earned his chance as one of the best OCs in football. Lombardi is a total a$$hole.
Sometimes it does not work out, Wade Phillips was easily one of the best DCs in the NFL in the last 30 years. He earned his chance as HC. It did not work out. There are numerous OCs and DCs that were top 5 at there job that earned the right to be HC and it did not work out.
i thought shurmur deserved a chance too, and unlike mcadoo he'd been a HC before so there was some hope he fit the arians prototype at that time which was an overlooked experienced assistant because personality wise he didnt fit into the right mold.
as it turned out he had the maturity of a 2nd grader. each of these failed HC's has had a breaking moment and i think his was when he publicly threw Lauletta under the bus. the only what if i have with him was if he'd have gotten Fangio as DC since bettcher was just so, so bad. if 2018 goes better maybe the OBJ trade never happens and then maybe you have a good defense plus an offense that has Engram, OBJ, Barkley. but more than likely it makes no difference. leadership is destiny and he was a shitty leader.
daboll hasnt had his signature public breaking point yet and obviously the future is unwritten so who knows but he is on the doorstep. if this week goes poorly and with CLE then what could into a DAL home game in NY on TNG next up the movie feels all too familiar. with the benefit of hindsight his friction with mcdermott doesnt reflect very well given mcdermott has been able to fire his protege, move on, and keep that train moving.
And that under Daboll, the Giants have spent plenty of resources on the offensive, which is finally showing signs of improvement.
That you found that to be evidence I was accusing you of wanting regime change solely because of the offense line was so out of left field, you 100% deserved to be called a dipshit.
And that under Daboll, the Giants have spent plenty of resources on the offensive, which is finally showing signs of improvement.
That you found that to be evidence I was accusing you of wanting regime change solely because of the offense line was so out of left field, you 100% deserved to be called a dipshit.
act offended at something banal challenge accepted apparently.
i deeply apologize for accusing you of accusing me of basing an argument on the narrowed criteria of OL play absent everything else discussed itt. feel better or still big mad?
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In comment 16607384 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16607379 JonC said:
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In comment 16607374 Eric on Li said:
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nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
There were back channel messages exchanged after TC was fired.
im gonna call some mild bs on this - not on you or your credibility just on the quality and likelihood of the info relayed to you. a timeline:
January 4 2016
- Coughlin resigns, Reese remains
- defending SB champion NE on a bye week as 2 seed having gone 12-4
January 14 2016
- Giants hire Ben Mcadoo
January 16 / 24 2016
- NE beats KC 27-20, setting up January 24 AFCCG vs #1 seed Peyton Manning and Denver Broncos, which they lost 20-18.
Could they have checked in with BB during his bye week? sure. but what are the odds any non-parcells non-scumbag would seriously consider any move like that mid-dynasty?
a year later on 2/5/17 NE won super bowl 51 vs seattle on malcolm butlers INT and belichick's famous non-timeout, and then 2 years after that on 2/3/19 they won super bowl 53 vs the Rams.
forget the giants, how likely does it seem that belichick would have responded to any overture at that time or that kraft would have allowed it for anything short of the multiple first round picks he paid as compensation to jets?
My brain is overloaded these days with new job and son in school dual chaos, but I believe the whispers started in December before they canned TC. Eric, a few asshats, and a few I know off BBI all heard some semblance of it. YMMV.
It doesn't mean it's a lock to not happen now, but it would be a huge reversal from NYG ownership. Either way, moving on.
he was running a 12 win team led by brady that was firmly in the middle of a dynasty. and he stayed there almost another decade, 4 years past brady, so he didnt seem to be in any rush to move on.
Anyway, they're two episodes in and it's a good watch. Belichick is a young 72, and he's definitely sharp.
I'd shitcan these guys and hire Belichick in two seconds. We're not going to win a title, but I am absolutely certain he'd build something better than this shit.
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with Belichick. Do you think he's going to coach for 5 years?
At his age, I see something like 2 years. Maybe he does a good job coaching and we are a fundamentally sound team and we have 2 seasons that are like 8-9 and 9-8. The he retires and we start over again. Something like this seems to be by far the most likely outcome.
100%.
I've written it a half dozen times the last several days. BB is chasing Shula and another Lombardi at this point. It's a chase for more history. Coming here doesn't improve those chances.
Maybe BB is feeling sentimental and magnanimous and I'm wrong.
But he seems like a super competitive guy itching to win big without Brady. And put a fork in that debate.
This makes perfect sense but sometimes people make weird decisions, like Jason Garrett agreeing to be OC here.
Anyway, they're two episodes in and it's a good watch. Belichick is a young 72, and he's definitely sharp.
I'd shitcan these guys and hire Belichick in two seconds. We're not going to win a title, but I am absolutely certain he'd build something better than this shit.
Lombardi is full of shit. Don't try to sugarcoat a whiny, bitter SOB.
A young 72/73? That's a ringing endorsement. He is a freaking minefield. He could not win without Brady and chased his biggest asset off by refusing to get him WRs that could catch the football, even after Brady took pay cuts to give the Patriots the money to sign better players.
No doubt Bill know football. But he is a disaster at GM.
So why not Belichick?
My concern is bringing someone in like Ben Johnson who might as well be Daboll in 2022. Offensive mind to *gasp* fix Daniel Jones year 7 or bring him in to find the next QB.
I liked their thinking with the Judge hire, he just was not qualified.
If the quarterback problem is a result of the head coach, just get a GM who can set him straight. Problem solved.
If the quarterback problem is a result of the head coach, just get a GM who can set him straight. Problem solved.
Can we restate this? The Giants have a QB and organizational dysfunction problem. I think you agree.
New flash - half the teams in the NFL sucked last week. Teams often are bad the 1st week and sometimes the 2nd week too. Unfortunately, we have the Daniel Jones effect in addition to early season ineptitude.
In 2006, the Giants defense sucked for 2 and 3/4 games learning a new defense - and the really were atrocious. Unfortunately we don't have Eli for the offense.
The Green Bay the D actually was not so bad. It got away towards the end. Much more talented D team though.
New flash - half the teams in the NFL sucked last week. Teams often are bad the 1st week and sometimes the 2nd week too. Unfortunately, we have the Daniel Jones effect in addition to early season ineptitude.
In 2006, the Giants defense sucked for 2 and 3/4 games learning a new defense - and the really were atrocious. Unfortunately we don't have Eli for the offense.
I think there is talent on this team, but EVERYTHING is being held back because of the QB position.
The Green Bay the D actually was not so bad. It got away towards the end. Much more talented D team though.
Yep, 2007, Thanks. The Giants defense gave up 80 points the 1st three games, IIRC. They were dreadful. And then they got better. Point is still the same, took most of three games for THAT defense to get up to speed.
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Really sucked. He will suck this week, too. He will suck for the rest of the year until he starts catching splinters on the bench or carrying the clipboard. That may not mean the rest of the team sucks. (but it helps)
New flash - half the teams in the NFL sucked last week. Teams often are bad the 1st week and sometimes the 2nd week too. Unfortunately, we have the Daniel Jones effect in addition to early season ineptitude.
In 2006, the Giants defense sucked for 2 and 3/4 games learning a new defense - and the really were atrocious. Unfortunately we don't have Eli for the offense.
I think there is talent on this team, but EVERYTHING is being held back because of the QB position.
That is my opinion, also. However, the defense should still be able to be successful or should I say solid without the QB.
I definitely do not want a first time guy like Ben Johnson. We'll be replacing him in three years. How a head coach for the team, not the QB.
I definitely do not want a first time guy like Ben Johnson. We'll be replacing him in three years. How a head coach for the team, not the QB.
if daboll fails they cannot do a first timer again. ironically i think that was mara's instinct last time and why he was hot for flores until schoen chose daboll.
Okay, I'll bite. Why does Daboll stink?
Expecting him to make more chicken salad out of Jones for more than one year was the stretch of stretches.
Look, I don't want to limit this to just the offense and QB. But he's totally handcuffed by a dying QB and a GM who seems way over his head right now.
Remember, he steered the ship in 2022 with mostly Gettleman's leftovers. Just think about that...
I'm not saying he's an elite coach and we need to keep him under any circumstances. But I also don't think he warrants the "he's a bum, he's only in the league because of Josh Allen, bad hire" type of stuff that is inevitably coming his way.
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He can go. If it's him or Belichick in 2025, that's no contest.
Okay, I'll bite. Why does Daboll stink?
Expecting him to make more chicken salad out of Jones for more than one year was the stretch of stretches.
Look, I don't want to limit this to just the offense and QB. But he's totally handcuffed by a dying QB and a GM who seems way over his head right now.
Remember, he steered the ship in 2022 with mostly Gettleman's leftovers. Just think about that...
Daboll won COY by making chicken salad out of a chicken shit quarterback. And he deserves all of the credit in doing so. The mistake was believing at the moment of truth that DJ was anything more than a backup talent and being all-in with Schoen on that contract, as the asshats have confirmed this week. After last year, to now be content with Lock and DeVito as being sufficient to support our chicken shit quarterback, particularly when the "coach up Lock the way he coached up Allen" thesis has been proven to be pure nonsense, is nothing less than a fireable offense.
Daboll's only chance to survive is if he benches DJ asap, to at least win back the locker room, and is somehow able to get this team to win with either Lock or DeVito. Which would reestablish his magician like ability to make chicken salad again. But given the schedule and current state of the team, this would be the a Houdini act for the ages. Meaning, it is a virtual certainty that Daboll, and hopefully Schoen too, will be fired either at the end of the year, or better yet, prior to the trade deadline to ensure that decisions this year are properly made with a focus on the future and rebuilding this team. Yet again.
that defense didnt give up more than 22 points in a game until week 8 against on the road vs seattle when they gave up 27. and they had multiple starters on that defense who were signed off the street after week 1. jaylon smith instead of okereke, fabian moureau at cb instead of banks.
that team just competed it's ass off.
Just a factual question, did everyone sense the same passivity in Daboll during and after the game last week as I felt? I’m wondering if I’m projecting or if others got the same feeling.
Just a factual question, did everyone sense the same passivity in Daboll during and after the game last week as I felt? I’m wondering if I’m projecting or if others got the same feeling.
there seemed to be less intensity in general.
i think that's more broadly 1 of the concerns with a head coach being both OC and HC. in a way he is his own boss, and focusing on half of the team in a very specific/tangible way (play calling) possibly at the expense of putting energy into the full team. especially since they also had a new DC in his first game.
with the 22/23 staff setups i think we would have seen daboll pacing the sidelines with more emotion.
that defense didnt give up more than 22 points in a game until week 8 against on the road vs seattle when they gave up 27. and they had multiple starters on that defense who were signed off the street after week 1. jaylon smith instead of okereke, fabian moureau at cb instead of banks.
that team just competed it's ass off.
No question. Wink may very well be the biggest loss of all this year. Bowen's defense in that first game reminded me a lot of the vaunted James Bettcher defense - a bend but don't break defense that breaks as much as it bends.
As to 2022, once Daboll put the team on his back in the Titans game by getting in DJ's face after that brutal fourth quarter interception and then had the courage to go for the two point conversion with Barkley, that locker room was fully bought in for the season. But it began with the belief that Daboll could get the team to win with a quarterback like DJ. Once that illusion was shattered, first by the Eagles playoff game, and then when DJ was rewarded with a ridiculously overvalued contract while Barkley was simultaneously completely disrespected, the locker room was lost.
Just a factual question, did everyone sense the same passivity in Daboll during and after the game last week as I felt? I’m wondering if I’m projecting or if others got the same feeling.
It appears to me to be a sense of resignation in coming to terms with the reality that there is nothing that can be done with this team with DJ as its quarterback. The thesis that fixing the OL, getting weapons, committing to positional value, improving the defense, trusting the process, etc etc, only works if you have a competent NFL quarterback. DJ is who he always has been. Nothing has changed. He and Schoen made a massive bet and it has failed. They have sown the wind and shall now reap the whirlwind...
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that defense was beyond lacking in talent in 2022 and yet they got stops against lamar, rodgers, cousins, and probably some others im forgetting when it matter. they kept games close and competed.
that defense didnt give up more than 22 points in a game until week 8 against on the road vs seattle when they gave up 27. and they had multiple starters on that defense who were signed off the street after week 1. jaylon smith instead of okereke, fabian moureau at cb instead of banks.
that team just competed it's ass off.
No question. Wink may very well be the biggest loss of all this year. Bowen's defense in that first game reminded me a lot of the vaunted James Bettcher defense - a bend but don't break defense that breaks as much as it bends.
As to 2022, once Daboll put the team on his back in the Titans game by getting in DJ's face after that brutal fourth quarter interception and then had the courage to go for the two point conversion with Barkley, that locker room was fully bought in for the season. But it began with the belief that Daboll could get the team to win with a quarterback like DJ. Once that illusion was shattered, first by the Eagles playoff game, and then when DJ was rewarded with a ridiculously overvalued contract while Barkley was simultaneously completely disrespected, the locker room was lost.
im gonna push back on this a little bit. they came back against arizona last year, they actually hung in against SF on that TNF game without barkley better than they did this past week at home vs darnold. When Barkley came back they almost beat BUF. then they rallied late season with him and beat gb/phi, almost beat lar too.
i dont think anyone quit on daboll through 2 years and that is probably the biggest reason he got to year 3.
terps made a good point about hard knocks yesterday and how even when it came to supporting jones they were so feeble and lacking conviction. add to that how they misjudged the market for what was clearly their best player the last 2 years. its possible that we are seeing the quitting conditions hit a perfect storm right now in real time as jones implodes, barkley wins player of the week, and the defense regresses. either daboll leads them out of this with answers or he's done.
The latter season games you mention were with Tyrod and DeVito when I would argue that the locker room got back to believing in Daboll and his magic. As I said, Daboll's only chance now is to somehow get Lock or DeVito in there and possibly recreate the energy of those late season games.
And agree completely with Terps about Hard Knocks. When Daboll said "so I guess were running it back with DJ?", he looked like Captain Smith on the Titanic saying "so I guess it's women and children first on the lifeboats?"
but you know what was even less competitive? being down 21-3 first drive after halftime to the guy who was the SF backup QB last year, at home, with no injuries and full rest (as opposed to TNF).
what we saw on sunday was a mixture of ideal conditions (health, home, year 3 with a roster they've fully turned over) and putrid results that just felt orders of magnitude worse than anything prior with this regime. it was the death rattle we saw with the 3 prior failed post-coughlin regimes.
Daboll won COY by making chicken salad out of a chicken shit quarterback. And he deserves all of the credit in doing so. The mistake was believing at the moment of truth that DJ was anything more than a backup talent and being all-in with Schoen on that contract, as the asshats have confirmed this week. After last year, to now be content with Lock and DeVito as being sufficient to support our chicken shit quarterback, particularly when the "coach up Lock the way he coached up Allen" thesis has been proven to be pure nonsense, is nothing less than a fireable offense.
Daboll's only chance to survive is if he benches DJ asap, to at least win back the locker room, and is somehow able to get this team to win with either Lock or DeVito. Which would reestablish his magician like ability to make chicken salad again. But given the schedule and current state of the team, this would be the a Houdini act for the ages. Meaning, it is a virtual certainty that Daboll, and hopefully Schoen too, will be fired either at the end of the year, or better yet, prior to the trade deadline to ensure that decisions this year are properly made with a focus on the future and rebuilding this team. Yet again.
Well, per Hard Knocks, Daboll was into trading up for Daniels and Maye. In fact, he sounded very resolute about getting Daniels.
But, alas, his boss couldn't figure that trade part out. If you want to say he was complicit in that failure, fine.
Once Schoen failed, what did we expect Daboll to say going forward? He has to deal with the card dealt and move on.
I would bet if you hooked Daboll to a polygraph, he would come clean on his feeling for Jones - he's not what I want to make this work...
but you know what was even less competitive? being down 21-3 first drive after halftime to the guy who was the SF backup QB last year, at home, with no injuries and full rest (as opposed to TNF).
what we saw on sunday was a mixture of ideal conditions (health, home, year 3 with a roster they've fully turned over) and putrid results that just felt orders of magnitude worse than anything prior with this regime. it was the death rattle we saw with the 3 prior failed post-coughlin regimes.
No argument here - Sunday was right up there with the very worst of McAdoo, Shurmur and Judge.
Pipedream...There is NFW I see Mara ever giving BB the set up and structure we had in New England.
+1. I'll take my chances with an older BB.
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if you offer him total control tomorrow, that's something dallas probably wouldnt even do if/when they fire mccarthy. is he passing on that?
Pipedream...There is NFW I see Mara ever giving BB the set up and structure we had in New England.
I wonder if BB wouldn't go into an interview demanding the exact same structure he had in New England. Maybe he's open to a more "traditional" structure. I would prefer the SF model, where BB picks his GM, though; NOT Mara!
I wonder if BB wouldn't go into an interview demanding the exact same structure he had in New England. Maybe he's open to a more "traditional" structure. I would prefer the SF model, where BB picks his GM, though; NOT Mara!
Now, that is right my alley. Let the HC, ala Shanahan in San Fran, handpick his GM.
That is the correct reporting structure in my view. GM reports to HC and HC reports to the Owner(s).