Overall, I'm not a fan of either's plan or work here. They were dealt a bad hand, but I think it's clear by this point both are in over their heads here.
Daboll is probably done. You can't be an offensive coach and have your offense be this bad for this long. Oh you coached a great offense with Josh Allen at the helm? Congrats, nice work.
Schoen has a bit of a longer leash, but Barkley and X going out and dominating AND the line still being this bad is probably the nail in the coffin here. Brandon Brown sounded more impressive to me from Hard Knocks, but at this point they probably need to start from scratch.
although Daboll has had more than his share of head-scratching moves. As I just posted in the JMS thread, I think Schoen has a decent eye for talent, but he tend to reach for a lot of it. JMS isn’t a bad pick, but he wasn’t an early 2nd rounder. Wan’Dale offered elite quickness, but his size should have pushed him down a round later than where Schoen picked him. Same with Flott. Ezeudu was taken too early, Schoen burned 2 picks to move up one spot to take Banks, when a better player in Porter was still on the board.
Top that off with his spotty FA record AND his atrocious Jones contract and mishandling of the Jones/Barkley signings, I see little reason why he should stay if Daboll goes.
yes, completely. DJ in year 6 as the starter is bad but in
year 6 as the UNCONTESTED starter is something else.
i think Dabs is an ok coach, but he's not special. He's made plenty of poor in-game decisions and his roster management has cost us a couple of games. he's not a special HC.
I'd can them both today and get a jump on the next regime.
they missed big on DJ. they'll probably miss on big decisions in the future.
Yes. Schoen has had his misses. But I find it odd that Schoen's defensive guys have developed much more than the offensive guys who you would expect Daboll to have more influence over. Every year of Daboll has been the same, the defense is performing better than the offense. Even with a new DC and scheme, the defense looks way ahead of the offense that has had the same system for 3 seasons.
I don't think Daboll knows how to develop offensive talent. Also, he's been know to abandon the run for unknown reasons. He was like this in Buffalo as well. He has an aversion to riding the running game.
He’s presided over some of the most humiliating losses in team history. And that’s really saying something. They’re almost never even competitive in these division games in the second half. In almost every season opener, the team has looked embarrassingly unprepared. I’m done
RE: The Jones signing - I think the guest on the BBI podcast got it right, lack of options and he had such a poor supporting cast, they thought they could make it work.
Team is a lot more talented than it was a few years ago. Will see what Daboll does the rest of the year. Wonder if stubbornness is an issue. Don't see him getting canned without a new QB. Think next year will be it. Schoen has brought on a lot of talent. I see no need to change direction there.
Overall, I'm not a fan of either's plan or work here. They were dealt a bad hand, but I think it's clear by this point both are in over their heads here.
I have to agree here, that’s my biggest concern with them to date.
KT and EN draft choices at the outset seem to be a stretch so far as #1’s however this years class seems good so far.
Off on Daboll. He might be a good X's and O's guy, but the guy has not developed his own offensive staff nor has he elevated anybody in his offense. Where's it been lately? Not using players to their strengths at times, especially to young players like Josh Ezeudu. Then you go on to his game day breakdowns in relation to Special Teams. Not return man last year. No plan this year as Olszewski is hurt in the preseason. Gano being hurt and used, costing them the Washington game. I'm just done with it.
I'm still on the edge with Schoen. Neal hasn't worked, largely due to injuries, and under Daboll, hasn't developed. This latest draft looks really good and gives me hope for the future, but there's still a lot of time left. Dru Phillips looks really good, and look back, when was the last time the Giants had a 3rd rd pick work out?
This could be a tricky situation for ownership. I'd have to say Schoen is safe for next year. It's been well documented that Mara doesn't prefer to rip up the plan and start from scratch as often as this franchise has in the past decade. But a 3 or 4 win season from Daboll might force his hand. Daboll might sense that and focus on scratching out every possible win, rather than focus on seeing what some of our young guys can do and evaluating for next year. Every win we notch hurts our draft position, obviously. Should Mara give Daboll a vote of confidence now? Might not be the worst thing.
Schoen had a very good draft this year, so I'm inclined to be patient
They need to decode which is more important a good team with a chance to contend or having positions of power besides OWNER.
The ship is going in circles largely due to the owner wants to drive vs letting the captain and crew do their jobs properly. At some point getting to the destination has to be greater than saying I was the actual person at the helm.
Daboll is an unfortunate casualty in all of this, but a casualty none the less. Schoen is completely discredited at this point. The DJ contract, the Barkley fiasco, the HardKnocks ridicule, the brutal draft classes, etc. And the fact that the two best players on the team continue to be Dexter Lawrence and Andrew Thomas, two guys drafted by Gettleman, could not be more of a stinging indictment as to Schoen's incompetence. He has now secured his place in Giants history as a rung below that of Gettleman. Nicely done Joe.
The ridicule coming from Belichick yesterday about Schoen's decision making is precisely how the rest of the league and players think about Schoen at this point. There are no half measures now to turn this thing around. Schoen is not the guy who can clean up his own mess. And Daboll is nothing more than his loyal lieutenant. We saw that Sunday when Josh Ezeudu, a guy who shouldn't even be rostered in the NFL, was selected to play a position he is actually worse at than his natural guard position, precisely because he was a better option than playing Evan Neal. Why? Because they didn't want to advertise Neal's utter inability to play the position for which he was drafted. Especially on the day that Barkley was thoroughly discrediting Schoen's positional value nonsense and proving decisively that you don't let that kind of a talent out the door for nothing! Even Tepper was smart enough to only move McCaffrey if he was getting something of value for him.
So denial and delusion will continue to obfuscate every decision made by these guys now. Neither can be trusted to run this franchise going forward. So they both have to go. And preferably, immediately after the Carolina game in the bye week. Hire Belichick as an advisor and empower him to hire the next GM, let Kafka play out the string as the interim head coach in 2024 and then insert Belichick as the head coach with complete control of football operations for the next five years. Full measures or this insanity will continue for another decade.
They need to decode which is more important a good team with a chance to contend or having positions of power besides OWNER.
The ship is going in circles largely due to the owner wants to drive vs letting the captain and crew do their jobs properly. At some point getting to the destination has to be greater than saying I was the actual person at the helm.
Was a huge supporter, but every major decision has seemingly been very wrong. Draft picks kinda suck. FA’s along the OL suck. The QB sucks. The RB we let go for those OL FA acquisitions (while the right move) shoved it back up our ass on Sunday. Players are quitting. The progression here is going the wrong way. We’re a fucking joke. They can’t be fired soon enough…
Watch the all-22. Plays are there to be made. Jones doesn't see them.
And Daboll's not protecting him as in 2022. He's putting him center stage for all to see.
Probably to his own demise.
Does that mean that Daboll is so incompetent that he refuses to design plays that Jones can see?
Plays are there to be made? If it's a Daboll designed play of a round hole, and Jones plays like a square peg, Daboll cannot figure out that the two of them don't fit?
Now, a smaller square peg can loosely fit into a round hole, but in football terms that smaller peg comes up short of a first down.
Meanwhile, other teams' defenses laugh at the Giants round hole/square peg offensive concepts.
Watch the all-22. Plays are there to be made. Jones doesn't see them.
And Daboll's not protecting him as in 2022. He's putting him center stage for all to see.
Probably to his own demise.
Does that mean that Daboll is so incompetent that he refuses to design plays that Jones can see?
Plays are there to be made? If it's a Daboll designed play of a round hole, and Jones plays like a square peg, Daboll cannot figure out that the two of them don't fit?
Now, a smaller square peg can loosely fit into a round hole, but in football terms that smaller peg comes up short of a first down.
Meanwhile, other teams' defenses laugh at the Giants round hole/square peg offensive concepts.
You can’t design plays for a QB who won’t throw the ball more than 5 yards downfield. The decision to go into this season with this QB room was so inexplicably horrendous, it warrants firing everyone involved.
Even if they thought Jones would raise his play, his injury history necessitated bringing in a quality backup. But that would have put too much pressure on Danny Boy if he struggled, and we can’t have that here, so welcome Drew Fucking Lock!
I wouldn't get rid of Joe Schoen because he's in QB hell with Daniel Jones. And I wouldn't get rid of him over the Saquon Barkley drama. But I'm very tempted to hand him his walking papers over what he has done for the Giants LOS!
He never devoted any serious draft capital on defensive lineman and he tried to plug the hole via free agency. The results right now just plain suck. He devoted serious draft capital on offensive lineman and he has failed miserably so he has plugged the hole via free agency with fair to middling results.
Watch the all-22. Plays are there to be made. Jones doesn't see them.
And Daboll's not protecting him as in 2022. He's putting him center stage for all to see.
Probably to his own demise.
Does that mean that Daboll is so incompetent that he refuses to design plays that Jones can see?
Plays are there to be made? If it's a Daboll designed play of a round hole, and Jones plays like a square peg, Daboll cannot figure out that the two of them don't fit?
Now, a smaller square peg can loosely fit into a round hole, but in football terms that smaller peg comes up short of a first down.
Meanwhile, other teams' defenses laugh at the Giants round hole/square peg offensive concepts.
There are no, absolutely no offensive concepts that any coach can scheme for Jones' ability.
Jones is a lost cause when it comes to being and NFL QB.
Everyone knows that. I think?...
RE: Schoen had a very good draft this year, so I'm inclined to be patient
with him. Daboll, on the other hand, isn't doing very well.
Did he though? Passed on 1st round QBs and didnt even draft one later. I also truly believe he didn’t do everything he could to trade up for a QB. Atleast make any of the top 3 teams an offer that would be hard to refuse. I would have happily traded 3 1sts or more to get a legit franchise QB.
Instead he got another weapon for Daniel. Great work….
I fear Mara will give them a fourth because he was quick to the trigger on McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge, but these guys don’t deserve a year four. This leadership team stinks
I would, in some vain hope that this mindset somehow makes its way to the team, implore that everyone around the Giants (organization, media, fans) stop thinking about what Schoen and Daboll deserve and start thinking about how the Giants can improve.
Schoen and Daboll should have been let go last year when Belichick, Vrabel, and Harbaugh were available. There is no one on earth that can argue Schoen and Daboll are better at their jobs than those three guys are.
than Schoen is at his, but he's not a my-way-or-the-highway type of program builder. Just takes his orders, even if that order is Daniel Jones. Which is really pathetic for a head coach if you think about it. He's finding out the hard way that being the good solider is going to put him in the unemployment line.
I am watching Schoen and Daboll with interest but still think they’re the right guys. I could be convinced otherwise is they don’t start to deliver results one the team gets a QB. And yes, I know, the QB mess is on Schoen in particular.
They are 2 likeable pros but I lost faith in Schoen in how he mishandled the Barkley situation and then his first 2 drafts were just awful.
Daboll I've lost faith in his oversight of special teams unit, from the returners to the kickers.
Staples of Parcells and Coughlin is the importance placed on that 3rd Unit of the team.
Missing on the DJ evaluation and giving him that contract was amateurish. Not adding anybody last year to compete at QB was foolish. Continuing to start him with that injury guarantee is egregious. And hiding behind the statement he gives us the best chance to win is spitting in the faces of the defense and the fans.
If Jones doesn’t lose his job, they should lose theirs.
One of the big parts of Schoen's legacy right now has been investment and variable returns at offensive line.
Extended Thomas early, drafted Neal at 7, drafted Ezeudu at 67, signed Glowinski to a top 3rd contract at his position, drafted JMS at 57, signed Runyan to a top 3rd contract at his position, signed Eluemunor to a top 3rd contract at his position.
Missing on the DJ evaluation and giving him that contract was amateurish. Not adding anybody last year to compete at QB was foolish. Continuing to start him with that injury guarantee is egregious. And hiding behind the statement he gives us the best chance to win is spitting in the faces of the defense and the fans.
If Jones doesn’t lose his job, they should lose theirs.
I think Daboll would bench Jones immediately if he could, but I think John Mara is making that call, which is a problem.
Schoen has screwed the pooch on things he can control, like having another QB on the roster. Even if he didn't like the other QBs available when we drafted at #6, he couldn't have drafted them in other rounds?
Watch the all-22. Plays are there to be made. Jones doesn't see them.
And Daboll's not protecting him as in 2022. He's putting him center stage for all to see.
Probably to his own demise.
Schoen has a bit of a longer leash, but Barkley and X going out and dominating AND the line still being this bad is probably the nail in the coffin here. Brandon Brown sounded more impressive to me from Hard Knocks, but at this point they probably need to start from scratch.
Top that off with his spotty FA record AND his atrocious Jones contract and mishandling of the Jones/Barkley signings, I see little reason why he should stay if Daboll goes.
i think Dabs is an ok coach, but he's not special. He's made plenty of poor in-game decisions and his roster management has cost us a couple of games. he's not a special HC.
I'd can them both today and get a jump on the next regime.
they missed big on DJ. they'll probably miss on big decisions in the future.
I don't think Daboll knows how to develop offensive talent. Also, he's been know to abandon the run for unknown reasons. He was like this in Buffalo as well. He has an aversion to riding the running game.
Team is a lot more talented than it was a few years ago. Will see what Daboll does the rest of the year. Wonder if stubbornness is an issue. Don't see him getting canned without a new QB. Think next year will be it. Schoen has brought on a lot of talent. I see no need to change direction there.
I have to agree here, that’s my biggest concern with them to date.
KT and EN draft choices at the outset seem to be a stretch so far as #1’s however this years class seems good so far.
I'm still on the edge with Schoen. Neal hasn't worked, largely due to injuries, and under Daboll, hasn't developed. This latest draft looks really good and gives me hope for the future, but there's still a lot of time left. Dru Phillips looks really good, and look back, when was the last time the Giants had a 3rd rd pick work out?
The ship is going in circles largely due to the owner wants to drive vs letting the captain and crew do their jobs properly. At some point getting to the destination has to be greater than saying I was the actual person at the helm.
The ridicule coming from Belichick yesterday about Schoen's decision making is precisely how the rest of the league and players think about Schoen at this point. There are no half measures now to turn this thing around. Schoen is not the guy who can clean up his own mess. And Daboll is nothing more than his loyal lieutenant. We saw that Sunday when Josh Ezeudu, a guy who shouldn't even be rostered in the NFL, was selected to play a position he is actually worse at than his natural guard position, precisely because he was a better option than playing Evan Neal. Why? Because they didn't want to advertise Neal's utter inability to play the position for which he was drafted. Especially on the day that Barkley was thoroughly discrediting Schoen's positional value nonsense and proving decisively that you don't let that kind of a talent out the door for nothing! Even Tepper was smart enough to only move McCaffrey if he was getting something of value for him.
So denial and delusion will continue to obfuscate every decision made by these guys now. Neither can be trusted to run this franchise going forward. So they both have to go. And preferably, immediately after the Carolina game in the bye week. Hire Belichick as an advisor and empower him to hire the next GM, let Kafka play out the string as the interim head coach in 2024 and then insert Belichick as the head coach with complete control of football operations for the next five years. Full measures or this insanity will continue for another decade.
The ship is going in circles largely due to the owner wants to drive vs letting the captain and crew do their jobs properly. At some point getting to the destination has to be greater than saying I was the actual person at the helm.
*decide*
Watch the all-22. Plays are there to be made. Jones doesn't see them.
And Daboll's not protecting him as in 2022. He's putting him center stage for all to see.
Probably to his own demise.
Plays are there to be made? If it's a Daboll designed play of a round hole, and Jones plays like a square peg, Daboll cannot figure out that the two of them don't fit?
Now, a smaller square peg can loosely fit into a round hole, but in football terms that smaller peg comes up short of a first down.
Meanwhile, other teams' defenses laugh at the Giants round hole/square peg offensive concepts.
Quote:
I'd keep Daboll.
Watch the all-22. Plays are there to be made. Jones doesn't see them.
And Daboll's not protecting him as in 2022. He's putting him center stage for all to see.
Probably to his own demise.
Does that mean that Daboll is so incompetent that he refuses to design plays that Jones can see?
Plays are there to be made? If it's a Daboll designed play of a round hole, and Jones plays like a square peg, Daboll cannot figure out that the two of them don't fit?
Now, a smaller square peg can loosely fit into a round hole, but in football terms that smaller peg comes up short of a first down.
Meanwhile, other teams' defenses laugh at the Giants round hole/square peg offensive concepts.
You can’t design plays for a QB who won’t throw the ball more than 5 yards downfield. The decision to go into this season with this QB room was so inexplicably horrendous, it warrants firing everyone involved.
Even if they thought Jones would raise his play, his injury history necessitated bringing in a quality backup. But that would have put too much pressure on Danny Boy if he struggled, and we can’t have that here, so welcome Drew Fucking Lock!
I wouldn't get rid of Joe Schoen because he's in QB hell with Daniel Jones. And I wouldn't get rid of him over the Saquon Barkley drama. But I'm very tempted to hand him his walking papers over what he has done for the Giants LOS!
He never devoted any serious draft capital on defensive lineman and he tried to plug the hole via free agency. The results right now just plain suck. He devoted serious draft capital on offensive lineman and he has failed miserably so he has plugged the hole via free agency with fair to middling results.
Quote:
I'd keep Daboll.
Watch the all-22. Plays are there to be made. Jones doesn't see them.
And Daboll's not protecting him as in 2022. He's putting him center stage for all to see.
Probably to his own demise.
Does that mean that Daboll is so incompetent that he refuses to design plays that Jones can see?
Plays are there to be made? If it's a Daboll designed play of a round hole, and Jones plays like a square peg, Daboll cannot figure out that the two of them don't fit?
Now, a smaller square peg can loosely fit into a round hole, but in football terms that smaller peg comes up short of a first down.
Meanwhile, other teams' defenses laugh at the Giants round hole/square peg offensive concepts.
There are no, absolutely no offensive concepts that any coach can scheme for Jones' ability.
Jones is a lost cause when it comes to being and NFL QB.
Everyone knows that. I think?...
Did he though? Passed on 1st round QBs and didnt even draft one later. I also truly believe he didn’t do everything he could to trade up for a QB. Atleast make any of the top 3 teams an offer that would be hard to refuse. I would have happily traded 3 1sts or more to get a legit franchise QB.
Instead he got another weapon for Daniel. Great work….
Mara, Schoen and Daboll are the three blind mice to me!
Dabes i like more than schoen, but I still think we can do better.
I think the defense is playing well considering. The OL is obviously still this teams biggest weakness.
Yeah, we could have traded them, maybe, possibly. Lots of players hit free agency. Is every GM dumb who lets a player hit FA?
Schoen and Daboll should have been let go last year when Belichick, Vrabel, and Harbaugh were available. There is no one on earth that can argue Schoen and Daboll are better at their jobs than those three guys are.
I still like Daboll. He knows what he's doing but he has a flawed trigger man. And his role in the Jones situation is complex.
Schoen, on the other hand, can leave yesterday as far as I'm concerned. And for many of the reasons cited daily.
Now, if we finish short of 5 wins, I think I'll be long past caring who keeps their job and who doesn't.
Daboll I've lost faith in his oversight of special teams unit, from the returners to the kickers.
Staples of Parcells and Coughlin is the importance placed on that 3rd Unit of the team.
The great destruction of the LoS (started by Reese a decade ago) they inherited still stands today.
Perimeter oriented JS/BD wasn't a great solution to address the foundational issue. Former WR as the GM and DB as the HC.
Agree
If Jones doesn’t lose his job, they should lose theirs.
Extended Thomas early, drafted Neal at 7, drafted Ezeudu at 67, signed Glowinski to a top 3rd contract at his position, drafted JMS at 57, signed Runyan to a top 3rd contract at his position, signed Eluemunor to a top 3rd contract at his position.
The player development is the story.
They dont need more time, actually they do not deserve more time.
If Jones doesn’t lose his job, they should lose theirs.
I think Daboll would bench Jones immediately if he could, but I think John Mara is making that call, which is a problem.
Schoen has screwed the pooch on things he can control, like having another QB on the roster. Even if he didn't like the other QBs available when we drafted at #6, he couldn't have drafted them in other rounds?
He couldn't have resigned Taylor?