Joe Schoen first round picks

right up there with the decision to reverse course and extend Jones.

It was talked about what a good thing it was that he took heavy input from his coaching staff regarding draft picks.

While I think taking input is definitely something you should do, it almost seemed like he let Wink make the Banks pick, and while he should have input, he shouldn't be making the picks, certainly not in the first round.

But if they're "dawgs" then does it matter if they are average players?

-Traded up for Jalin Hyatt;
-Drafted Wan'Dale Robinson in the 2nd;
-Traded a 3rd rd pick for Waller.

Is Evan Neal. The other guys are showing ability.

The Hyatt pick is frustrating because it seems he hasn't shown any growth from what looked like a promising rookie year. Sophomore slumps are a real thing though.

In comment 16658227 Bavaro_the_Mafioso said:

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-Traded up for Jalin Hyatt; -Drafted Wan'Dale Robinson in the 2nd; -Traded a 3rd rd pick for Waller.

You have to also give him credit for flipping KT for that 3rd round pick.

The early returns on the FA OL acquisitions (they suck), the downward trajectory of this build and to me, you have just cause to terminate him (and Daboll) in January.

In comment 16658233 Mdgiantsfan said:

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In comment 16658227 Bavaro_the_Mafioso said: Quote: -Traded up for Jalin Hyatt; -Drafted Wan'Dale Robinson in the 2nd; -Traded a 3rd rd pick for Waller. You have to also give him credit for flipping KT for that 3rd round pick.

Fair, so what was the return?

3 of them were well within reasonable consensus to pick them at those spots.

The exception being Banks. It does look like that it was an overpay in a vacuum.

saying you can get guys like Nabers through the draft is a joke and shows your agenda here.

Second, the vast majority of BBI agreed with almost all of those picks when they were made - especially Evan Neal. And everyone thought Hyatt was a steal in the 3rd round.
So these have not all worked out like we would have liked so far, but that does not mean they were bad picks when they were made.

The one I have an issue with is Wandale....taking a guys with his extreme size limitations in the 2nd round seemed wholly unnecessary. That is the type of player you can find later in the draft.

In comment 16658259 Jacobs #27 said:

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saying you can get guys like Nabers through the draft is a joke and shows your agenda here. Second, the vast majority of BBI agreed with almost all of those picks when they were made - especially Evan Neal. And everyone thought Hyatt was a steal in the 3rd round. So these have not all worked out like we would have liked so far, but that does not mean they were bad picks when they were made. The one I have an issue with is Wandale....taking a guys with his extreme size limitations in the 2nd round seemed wholly unnecessary. That is the type of player you can find later in the draft.

Then the issue is Schoen is just a save GM who goes by consensus and wants a nice and tidy accounting sheet. Hasn't done anything for NYG to this point.

one that is getting paid to make these decisions and he's the one that picked him.

One side of the story is that he was a consensus high pick, the other is that there were red flags. It's up to Schoen to determine the correct answer. No points for getting it wrong because we also got it wrong. Schoen is paid to get it right when we get it wrong.

In comment 16658227 Bavaro_the_Mafioso said:

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-Traded up for Jalin Hyatt; -Drafted Wan'Dale Robinson in the 2nd; -Traded a 3rd rd pick for Waller.

I would add trading 2 picks to move up one spot to take Banks, when Joey Porter was still on the board. Schoen wastes draft picks, something bad teams should not do.

If Neal was just even decent, the team and the GM would be viewed a lot differently

In comment 16658259 Jacobs #27 said:

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saying you can get guys like Nabers through the draft is a joke and shows your agenda here. Second, the vast majority of BBI agreed with almost all of those picks when they were made - especially Evan Neal. And everyone thought Hyatt was a steal in the 3rd round. So these have not all worked out like we would have liked so far, but that does not mean they were bad picks when they were made. The one I have an issue with is Wandale....taking a guys with his extreme size limitations in the 2nd round seemed wholly unnecessary. That is the type of player you can find later in the draft.

Saying you can get guys like Nabers in the draft is a joke?

Refresh us on how the Giants did get Nabers then if not through the draft?

The top 10 receivers (one is a TE) in the league right now (statistically by yards) and how their current team acquired them.

1. Ja'Marr Chase - Acquired by Bengals through the draft (5th overall)
2. Chris Godwin - Acquired by the Bucs through the draft (84th overall)
3. DK Metcalf - Acquired by the Seahawks through the draft (64th overall)
4. Nico Collins - Acquired by the Texans through the draft (89th overall)
5. Justin Jefferson - Acquired by the Vikings through the draft (22nd overall)
6. Brian Thomas Jr - Acquired by the Jaguars through the draft (23rd overall pick)
7. Drake London - Acquired by the Falcons through the draft (8th overall pick)
8. Brock Bowers (TE) - Acquired by Raiders through the draft (13th overall)
9. George Pickens - Acquired by Steelers through the draft (52nd overall)
10. CeeDee Lamb - Acquired by the Cowboys through the draft (17th overall)

All obtained by their current team through the draft, and only two of them with a top 10 pick. It is actually exceptionally easy to find a #1 WR in the draft wherever you are picking.

with your assessments. For instance, before getting injured KT was developing into more of a consistent game changer.

Neal is a miss, but the guy was rated as the top or close to the top prospect in the entire draft but several teams. But it's also hard to know how much of his play is poor development.

And you're also ignoring the rest of the picks, especially this year which looks to be a very strong draft.

I'd be curious to know how much input the old scouting regime had into the first couple drafts and whether this draft had more of Schoen's people involved.

So what ? JS is paid to determine the best talent available when Giants are on the clock .Complete failure . Neal is the Giants Vernon Gholston except he is even less productive .

In comment 16658284 Mike from Ohio said:

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In comment 16658259 Jacobs #27 said: Quote: saying you can get guys like Nabers through the draft is a joke and shows your agenda here. Second, the vast majority of BBI agreed with almost all of those picks when they were made - especially Evan Neal. And everyone thought Hyatt was a steal in the 3rd round. So these have not all worked out like we would have liked so far, but that does not mean they were bad picks when they were made. The one I have an issue with is Wandale....taking a guys with his extreme size limitations in the 2nd round seemed wholly unnecessary. That is the type of player you can find later in the draft. Saying you can get guys like Nabers in the draft is a joke? Refresh us on how the Giants did get Nabers then if not through the draft? The top 10 receivers (one is a TE) in the league right now (statistically by yards) and how their current team acquired them. 1. Ja'Marr Chase - Acquired by Bengals through the draft (5th overall) 2. Chris Godwin - Acquired by the Bucs through the draft (84th overall) 3. DK Metcalf - Acquired by the Seahawks through the draft (64th overall) 4. Nico Collins - Acquired by the Texans through the draft (89th overall) 5. Justin Jefferson - Acquired by the Vikings through the draft (22nd overall) 6. Brian Thomas Jr - Acquired by the Jaguars through the draft (23rd overall pick) 7. Drake London - Acquired by the Falcons through the draft (8th overall pick) 8. Brock Bowers (TE) - Acquired by Raiders through the draft (13th overall) 9. George Pickens - Acquired by Steelers through the draft (52nd overall) 10. CeeDee Lamb - Acquired by the Cowboys through the draft (17th overall) All obtained by their current team through the draft, and only two of them with a top 10 pick. It is actually exceptionally easy to find a #1 WR in the draft wherever you are picking.

"Exceptionally easy" then you list 6/10 first rounders. Arbitrarily cutting off after 10 seems to misrepresent how the majority of the top picks were acquired - premium draft capital.

Notice any serious reaches although the Wan'Dale pick was seen as something he could have gotten later. Still, he was seen as a 2nd day prospect.

Neal's failure is ultimately on him, but he was a concensus top pick, has been injured a lot, and development can be hindered by that and bad coaching (whatever Bobby Johnson and Brian Daboll did). I blame Daboll for the ultimate failure from Ezeudu. The man should have been a LG from the get go and use him along side Andrew Thomas.

The Giants drafts from 2011 until 2017 were filled with reaches and nothings. Not once did they even acquire a decent mid round pick. Schoen, for all his warts, has done that. He's not the problem, although like anyone, has room to improve.

I guess the implication you are trying to make is Schoen should have drafted a qb high.

Please share who you would have drafted where the Giants drafted?

I am not sticking up for him, but it was clear they were willing to trade up this year, for Maye and Daniels. Guess what nobody wanted to trade down. What could he have done?

He fit the physical requirements for Martindale’s defensive system more than his actual playmaking ability at the position, IMO.

gets a QB and an offense worth a shit (*if that happens), suddenly these guys will play with more vigor.

Are you serious? Arbitrarily cutting off after the top 10 leaders in the NFL? I don't have time to cover the top 50, maybe you do, but I didn't pick the top 3, or top 7.

If you can't look at what I posted and come to the conclusion that you can get a stud WR outside the top 10 draft picks, maybe you should stop looking at facts and just cling to your misconceptions?

This organization has had a tough time developing players. That has been the biggest problem over the since like 2011.

Out of the gate but we need to learn that lots of times, rookies regress year 2 and 3 rather than get better.

There are lots of reasons for that - league figures them out, take the $$ and run, injury etc.

It’s why you don’t trade a draft until year 3. So now, it’s fair to grade Schoen’s 2022 draft, and it looks bad IMO.

*grade a draft

In comment 16658222 Biteymax22 said:

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It was talked about what a good thing it was that he took heavy input from his coaching staff regarding draft picks. While I think taking input is definitely something you should do, it almost seemed like he let Wink make the Banks pick, and while he should have input, he shouldn't be making the picks, certainly not in the first round.

As the 1st rounders keep coming up I was thinking the same thing about Banks. Was also wondering how much the previous 'scouting regime' had input in those first two years, have they been replaced and is this latest draft class a result of an upgraded scouting dept.?

In comment 16658233 Mdgiantsfan said:

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In comment 16658227 Bavaro_the_Mafioso said: Quote: -Traded up for Jalin Hyatt; -Drafted Wan'Dale Robinson in the 2nd; -Traded a 3rd rd pick for Waller. You have to also give him credit for flipping KT for that 3rd round pick.

Schoen is smart in terms of moving around the draft, giving us options, but the actual assets he acquires, I'm not so sure.
Moving up for a "gadget" player (Hyatt). Why not just get a proper wide receiver? The wide receiver room was paltry, it really wasn't the right time to get such a player.
And Schmitz is another underwhelming draftee. At least Biadasz made the Pro-Bowl before the Cowboys let him sign for another team.

Was viewed as the ideal man-to-man corner for Wink.

Had we had Bowen during that draft, very likely the pick would've been Porter Jr. If still a CB.

I still like Banks though.

In fact, I am mostly a fan of Schoen's draft work. If you get a bunch of B+'s you aren't valedictorian but you still make the honor roll. You can win with a lot of good not great picks as long as you get the right QB. Hopefully that's coming this off-season.

and maybe his second but that was it. We've had some great low round finds under Schoen and if you can't tell the roster has improved you aren't paying attention.

In comment 16658375 mittenedman said:

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Out of the gate but we need to learn that lots of times, rookies regress year 2 and 3 rather than get better. There are lots of reasons for that - league figures them out, take the $$ and run, injury etc. It’s why you don’t trade a draft until year 3. So now, it’s fair to grade Schoen’s 2022 draft, and it looks bad IMO.

I agree on waiting before final judgement on a draft class but from what we’ve seen so far calling this draft just ‘ok’ is a severe understatement.

And right now 3 years into this regime we are a failure.

Daboll and Schoen came in together and now they can leave together and not soon enough.

In comment 16658284 Mike from Ohio said:

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In comment 16658259 Jacobs #27 said: Quote: saying you can get guys like Nabers through the draft is a joke and shows your agenda here. Second, the vast majority of BBI agreed with almost all of those picks when they were made - especially Evan Neal. And everyone thought Hyatt was a steal in the 3rd round. So these have not all worked out like we would have liked so far, but that does not mean they were bad picks when they were made. The one I have an issue with is Wandale....taking a guys with his extreme size limitations in the 2nd round seemed wholly unnecessary. That is the type of player you can find later in the draft. Saying you can get guys like Nabers in the draft is a joke? Refresh us on how the Giants did get Nabers then if not through the draft? The top 10 receivers (one is a TE) in the league right now (statistically by yards) and how their current team acquired them. 1. Ja'Marr Chase - Acquired by Bengals through the draft (5th overall) 2. Chris Godwin - Acquired by the Bucs through the draft (84th overall) 3. DK Metcalf - Acquired by the Seahawks through the draft (64th overall) 4. Nico Collins - Acquired by the Texans through the draft (89th overall) 5. Justin Jefferson - Acquired by the Vikings through the draft (22nd overall) 6. Brian Thomas Jr - Acquired by the Jaguars through the draft (23rd overall pick) 7. Drake London - Acquired by the Falcons through the draft (8th overall pick) 8. Brock Bowers (TE) - Acquired by Raiders through the draft (13th overall) 9. George Pickens - Acquired by Steelers through the draft (52nd overall) 10. CeeDee Lamb - Acquired by the Cowboys through the draft (17th overall) All obtained by their current team through the draft, and only two of them with a top 10 pick. It is actually exceptionally easy to find a #1 WR in the draft wherever you are picking.

Let’s look at this another way. Most drafts have 14-16 WRs taken in the top 3 rounds. As far as guys showing out as true WR1s picked I would go with:
2024: Nabers (possibly BTJ and MHJ as well, time without tell)
2023: None (possibly Flowers, Rice, Reed)
2022: Wilson, London, Olave?, Pickens?
2021: Chase, Collins, Smith?
2020: Lamb, Jefferson, Aiyuk?, Higgins?, Pittman?
2019: Deebo, AJ, DK, McLauren?
2018: DJ Moore?, Ridley?
2017: Kupp, Godwin?
2016: Thomas
2015: Cooper

Ignoring the most recent 2 years (which don’t look great but more time is needed) I’m seeing 12 bonafide high-end WR1s with another 10 that are adequate for the role. That’s 22 players outs of 109 picks in rounds 1-3. The picks are actually spread out pretty evenly (34 1st rnd, 41 2nd rnd, 34 3rd rnd) so this essentially says that you you would need to spend the next 5-years drafting WRs (Say rounds 1,2,3,1,3) to net a WR1…and it’s only 50-50 that it’s a high-end #1.

We all know if we had a Josh Allen, Mahomes, Lamar, Joe Burrow, Goff or even a CJ Stroud, we'd probably be 5-2 now and no one would question anything about any of the draft picks...

If the Giants had Patrick Mahomes, Evan Neal would still not be playing and Banks would still be a butthole.

In comment 16658515 christian said:

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If the Giants had Patrick Mahomes, Evan Neal would still not be playing and Banks would still be a butthole.

But guys like Slayton, Robinson and Johnson would likely look much better. We might also see a much better running game if everyone on defense was not within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage because you don't defend Mahomes and Jones the same way.

A good QB elevates the play of everyone, including the defense when they don't have to come back on the field every 4 plays.

What other position outside of WR is generating that many #1s out of the draft?

Said differently, if you told me that going into the draft I desperately needed to fill only one of these premium positions - QB, WR, LT, DE, CB - I would hope it was the WR I needed.

In comment 16658512 4xchamps said:

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We all know if we had a Josh Allen, Mahomes, Lamar, Joe Burrow, Goff or even a CJ Stroud, we'd probably be 5-2 now and no one would question anything about any of the draft picks...

Not really, it wouldn't exonerate based on performance demonstrated so far.

holding Thibs/Neal against Schoen. Of course one would hope that scouts are better than armchair GMs, but that seemed like an incredibly fortuitous 1st round combo at the time. Obviously Neal seems on the track to bust and Thibs seems like he's little more than JAG.

I think Banks was clearly not their top choice at CB, they almost lucked out but then a run on corners happened right before their pick and they knew they had to walk away from the draft with one. The business decisions thing is what it is and been discussed in other threads. We'll see what he does, he has some talent for sure.

Nabers looks like the real deal. Sure there are great WRs every 1st round these days, but I don't think that's a reason to discredit the pick. They could have gone a lot of ways with that spot.

He let Barkley go to the Eagles!

In comment 16658522 Mike from Ohio said:

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What other position outside of WR is generating that many #1s out of the draft? Said differently, if you told me that going into the draft I desperately needed to fill only one of these premium positions - QB, WR, LT, DE, CB - I would hope it was the WR I needed.

Now that is something I do agree with. And I’d further say a not-so-good WR can still help the team at WR2/3 while the other positions can have a huge negative impact.

But I still disagree that finding a stud WR is ‘easy’ and if a team was desperate to find one in the draft the chances are not great that they end up happy with the results.

That's all that really matters. We know draft picks don't have a high probability of success.

is patently absurd