Let’s face it, the Giants have been more lucky than good at hiring GMs. It’s easy to blame Mara, as yes, he and Tisch are ultimately responsible.
However the root cause of the problem is they don’t know how to hire GMs.
We got lucky with George Young & Acorsi. Reese basically inherited much of the talent drafted by Acorsi which led to multiple championships.
After that, look no further than the past 14 years of poor drafting and talent evaluations, roster construction etc. Hopefully our next GM hire is done through the assistance of some kind of outside consulting agency to guide our owners.
We missed already by hiring Schoen over Peters, we need the best talent evaluator we can find. Someone who knows how to draft and has a strategy and a plan on how to rebuild this franchise into a contender.
Schoen has a 17-23-1 record.
Schoen had pushed for the signing of a QB ranked near the bottom of the NFL.
Schoen has built an OL in 2023 regarded as among the worst in NFL History in the modern era.
With Schoesn's draftign and signign prowess the NY Giants mighty Offense was 3rd from the bottom in 2023 and this year is 2nd from the bottom in points scored. .
The QB just makes things impossible.
Also, you are implying that Reese was just along for the ride which is unfair. He retooled that team and won another Super Bowl in 2011.
The QB just makes things impossible.
Also, you are implying that Reese was just along for the ride which is unfair. He retooled that team and won another Super Bowl in 2011.
This. Also Reese inherited an 8-8 team minus over 40% of the offensive production when Barber retired. He had a monster 2007 draft to bolster that team and signed guys like Kawika Mitchell. He fully owns that 2007 roster.
People like to pretend Reese inherited some obvious Superbowl contending juggernaut that was 13-3 the previous year, or Accorsi had some master plan. If that were so, there's no way Accorsi would've retired when the team was "obviously" on the cusp of greatness.
JR inherited the HC, QB and entire OL (KB was a waiver wire pick up '07). Hired and promoted Ross who was terrible. In 11 drafts and FA periods he never added one OL as good or better than the ones he inherited.
Dave added Thomas and Dex but not nearly enough considering how much damage Reese had done. Schoen has been pretty poor and not fixed the LoS issue either imv.
David Gettleman was a disaster for multiple reasons, but he wasn't a bad talent evaluator. He was just an asshole who didn't understand roster construction, modern football or how to build a proper infrastructure for success.
I didn't write that blurb about Gettleman to defend him, I wrote it to mention that coming in after him meant that Schoen had a lot to clean up. For his first draft he relied on reports from scouts he didn't know and in some cases, input from coaches he wasn't familiar with.
We've made changes in the front office slowly but surely since he took over and the net was one of the NFL's better draft this season.
I'll agree that the handling of the Jones/Barkley contracts after the 2022 season can be viewed as negative, that and his unwillingness to bring in a real 2nd QB this offseason are where I'd ding him the most. However, I'm still not convinced Mara didn't influence these negotiations.
Regarding the offensive line, you'll notice that there was a complete 180 in strategy this offseason which seemed to work until Thomas got injured. The team took the route of signing a group of vets rather than drafting, then in the summer hired a scout who's entire job is to do nothing but scout offensive lineman (Chris Snee), so again an example of something Schoen saw wrong in the process and fixed.
With all the "are they safe" talk I've been thinking long and hard about Schoen and Daboll, I've come to the conclusion that Schoen just had an awful lot to clean up after taking over from Gettleman, hence the improvement in the draft this season.
End of story.
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Schoen has the highest graded 2024 draft class.
Schoen has a 17-23-1 record.
Schoen had pushed for the signing of a QB ranked near the bottom of the NFL.
Schoen has built an OL in 2023 regarded as among the worst in NFL History in the modern era.
With Schoesn's draftign and signign prowess the NY Giants mighty Offense was 3rd from the bottom in 2023 and this year is 2nd from the bottom in points scored. .
Have to push back on one. To be fair the offensive line was one of the worst in NFL history, but that was the result of injuries more than anything. At one point two practice squad elevations were playing alongside two other guys who had fewer than 10 starts each in the NFL.
Now I’m not saying the above is the case, but you can’t prove it isn’t and there’s a lot of circumstantial evidence that points to it being true.
Now some want to do the same for Daboll and Schoen.
Each have made many decisions not related to Jones that were terrible. Based on that they should both go.
One good draft out of three should not save Schoen.
Daboll has made many roster and in game mistakes to warrant staying.
Resigning Jones, no back up swing tackle. Waller, kicking game, building an offensive to throw the ball when your qb is terrible. Etc
How did keeping Gettlemen work out? Has Daboll proven he is better than Shurmur? At least with Shurmur we scored some points and he didnt get three years.
You are what your record days you are and we stink. Time for a change.
Saying it isn’t true doesn’t make it so. Prove it.
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Nor is there circumstantial evidence pointing to it being true either.
Saying it isn’t true doesn’t make it so. Prove it.
Claiming there is circumstantial evidence otherwise is on you. Lay it out.
We’ll see if Schoen was a good hire, but the process was correct. Interview everyone. Schoen was highly regarded around the league, so it wasn’t some kind of shock that he was hired. Let’s see if he can finish the job.
His left half of his tenure obvious fell - but Reese's track record beats over 95% of the people who has ever held the position.
Perhaps the outcomes were not good. Perhaps not - there are many confounding factors when assessing these things.
But I really hope they retain a similar process if/when they hire again. It's a massive, massive improvement from the processes they used previously
Mara made enough comments in the public about Jones to where he at the very least influenced the negotiations.
Did he force him on Schoen? Honestly we have as much evidence that he did as we do that he didn't, no one really knows for sure.
We’ll see if Schoen was a good hire, but the process was correct. Interview everyone. Schoen was highly regarded around the league, so it wasn’t some kind of shock that he was hired. Let’s see if he can finish the job.
Agreed
His left half of his tenure obvious fell - but Reese's track record beats over 95% of the people who has ever held the position.
Agreed
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Nor is there circumstantial evidence pointing to it being true either.
Mara made enough comments in the public about Jones to where he at the very least influenced the negotiations.
Did he force him on Schoen? Honestly we have as much evidence that he did as we do that he didn't, no one really knows for sure.
Mara's commentary can definitely be looked at as not helpful at times and silence would be better.
But Schoen was given the GM job to run the team and make the decisions on Jones regarding the 5th year option, his contract and whether to pursue other QBs in free agency and the draft before and after (contract). Jones is on Schoen.
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In comment 16659643 nygiantfan said:
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Nor is there circumstantial evidence pointing to it being true either.
Mara made enough comments in the public about Jones to where he at the very least influenced the negotiations.
Did he force him on Schoen? Honestly we have as much evidence that he did as we do that he didn't, no one really knows for sure.
Mara's commentary can definitely be looked at as not helpful at times and silence would be better.
But Schoen was given the GM job to run the team and make the decisions on Jones regarding the 5th year option, his contract and whether to pursue other QBs in free agency and the draft before and after (contract). Jones is on Schoen.
Again, I don't think we can say for certain that Schoen absolutely have full autonomy in the Jones/Barkley contract situation. Mara has been on record that he steps in when it comes to high profile players contracts and trades.
None of us can state for a fact that Mara didn't involve himself so anything either way is no more than an opinion. Mine is that Mara did involve himself, I may be wrong.
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In comment 16659643 nygiantfan said:
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Nor is there circumstantial evidence pointing to it being true either.
Saying it isn’t true doesn’t make it so. Prove it.
Claiming there is circumstantial evidence otherwise is on you. Lay it out.
I explicitly said it may not be true but can be argued. Not trying to win a debate here but it’s in the realm of possibility. And I’d point to Schoen being locked into Jones’ return in 2023 via new contract or franchise tag as exhibit A. Why was there such a big worry about him being a UFA?
I support the view that bad evaluating and decision-making by Schoen is causing many to look for something that isn't there.
The QB just makes things impossible.
Also, you are implying that Reese was just along for the ride which is unfair. He retooled that team and won another Super Bowl in 2011.
Dont agree. The issue wasn't all the Qb when they had one of the worst OL's ever in the modern era.
The issue isn't all the QB when the Giants are allowing barkley to run the ball down their throat or when they couldn't stop Washington.
The QB is a big part of it but also speaks to the incompetence of the GM thus far. This is highlighted by the fact the GM brought back jones for the money he signed him for.
The o line while better is still ehh and losing Thomas for the second straight year pretty much derails everything. They absolutely need to go into next year with a plan to deal with Thomas' lingering injuries and insure themselves against the possibility of him going down at some point.
But a good qb can make things look a lot different at this time next year.
I think we have a pretty good team on paper, a 9/10 win team with a good (not even great) QB. Fucking do it already.
There's definitely circumstantial evidence. There's no hard evidence, but that's not what circumstantial means.
Regarding the offensive line, you'll notice that there was a complete 180 in strategy this offseason which seemed to work until Thomas got injured. The team took the route of signing a group of vets rather than drafting, then in the summer hired a scout who's entire job is to do nothing but scout offensive lineman (Chris Snee), so again an example of something Schoen saw wrong in the process and fixed.
Again-- the injury excuse!!! Neal has sucked. JMS has not been very good and their backup they rely on is Ezodou. Their OL was no good after 2022 and he couldn't tell it needed a large overhaul? And Chris Snee is now the definitive answer in which you just mention one player gets hurt on the OL and that's going to be a huge problem? It;s the same problem that was in 2023. SO if the OL is going to drop big time the way you are implying you've already built in the excuse yet again instead of facing the fact JS after this year and last year has shown an inabaility to address this issue. Even before 2022 it wasn;t hard to undertsand the OL was no damn good.
The o line while better is still ehh and losing Thomas for the second straight year pretty much derails everything. They absolutely need to go into next year with a plan to deal with Thomas' lingering injuries and insure themselves against the possibility of him going down at some point.
But a good qb can make things look a lot different at this time next year.
Why is it okay that prior to this year they'd didn't address the run defense? Why is it okay that prior to this year they didnt addrees adding more depth to the OL?
Why is it okay for GM's to put the obvious off and say "let's wait until next year?"
These two isues show a complete lack of understanding of the importance of the trenches, doesn;t it?
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In comment 16659658 Biteymax22 said:
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In comment 16659643 nygiantfan said:
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Nor is there circumstantial evidence pointing to it being true either.
Mara made enough comments in the public about Jones to where he at the very least influenced the negotiations.
Did he force him on Schoen? Honestly we have as much evidence that he did as we do that he didn't, no one really knows for sure.
Mara's commentary can definitely be looked at as not helpful at times and silence would be better.
But Schoen was given the GM job to run the team and make the decisions on Jones regarding the 5th year option, his contract and whether to pursue other QBs in free agency and the draft before and after (contract). Jones is on Schoen.
Again, I don't think we can say for certain that Schoen absolutely have full autonomy in the Jones/Barkley contract situation. Mara has been on record that he steps in when it comes to high profile players contracts and trades.
None of us can state for a fact that Mara didn't involve himself so anything either way is no more than an opinion. Mine is that Mara did involve himself, I may be wrong.
More excuses from you. You can say this same excuse about every GM under Mara. You can;t say the other that it was the GM's decision either. But what we can see is that the OL may not have built up sufficient depth still after 3 years and still need quite a built of help on Run Defense.
So stoppin the run, running the football, and protecting the QB are all still potentially major flaws after 3 years and you seem to want to sweep these potential flaws under the rug by not holding the GM in some part accountable.
I'm all for keeping the GM right now about right now let's stop with the excuses. Not addressing the trenches into a strength over a year period in regard to the 3 factors (ofc nt all fixed but these are pretty basic) mentioned above along with not addreesing the QB issue potentially highlights that the GM is incompetent. I will say one aspect of Trenches in regard to pass rush is very good.
And maybe if the OL only sinks minimally then it's not so bad and/or maybe the run defense picks up. The point is these are "basics" after 3 years that at least shouldn't be such an issue after this long.
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tough to evaluate the rest when no team fears the qb. The defense while young looks promising. They still definitely need to address the run defense but the defense has potential.
The o line while better is still ehh and losing Thomas for the second straight year pretty much derails everything. They absolutely need to go into next year with a plan to deal with Thomas' lingering injuries and insure themselves against the possibility of him going down at some point.
But a good qb can make things look a lot different at this time next year.
Why is it okay that prior to this year they'd didn't address the run defense? Why is it okay that prior to this year they didnt addrees adding more depth to the OL?
Why is it okay for GM's to put the obvious off and say "let's wait until next year?"
These two isues show a complete lack of understanding of the importance of the trenches, doesn;t it?
No disagreement here. I think everything you said is fair. To play devils advocate though there were a lot of holes to patch up. O line was a mess, D line was a mess. We needed help at corner and safety. Needed to add a wr and replace the TE position. There was only so many things you could patch up in one offseason. The defense looks pretty good - especially the pass defense.
Bowen is doing a good job schematically. I have faith that he's the right guy for the job. The pass protection is better and we added a #1 wr. The Washington, Dallas and Cincy games were there for the taking and largely fall on the qbs shoulders. Diff qb = diff result in atleast 2 of those games.
I want to give Schoen one more year off of his 2024 draft and the fact that both him and Daboll identified Jayden as their qb if they could get him. But I understand why people don't want to give them that chance.
The fact is the 2022 season was a disaster in hindsight. It would have been hard selling the fanbase on ripping it down entirely. Jones should have never gotten that contract. Atleast the team can get out of it after this year. Personally, I want to give both of them a crack at it but like all of you I am sick of the merry go round of losing seasons. So I understand those who want new blood.
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Nor is there circumstantial evidence pointing to it being true either.
There's definitely circumstantial evidence. There's no hard evidence, but that's not what circumstantial means.
A moronic front office and disgruntled fan base shouting out theories isn’t either type. You may have others though.
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In comment 16659739 OBJ_AllDay said:
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tough to evaluate the rest when no team fears the qb. The defense while young looks promising. They still definitely need to address the run defense but the defense has potential.
The o line while better is still ehh and losing Thomas for the second straight year pretty much derails everything. They absolutely need to go into next year with a plan to deal with Thomas' lingering injuries and insure themselves against the possibility of him going down at some point.
But a good qb can make things look a lot different at this time next year.
Why is it okay that prior to this year they'd didn't address the run defense? Why is it okay that prior to this year they didnt addrees adding more depth to the OL?
Why is it okay for GM's to put the obvious off and say "let's wait until next year?"
These two isues show a complete lack of understanding of the importance of the trenches, doesn;t it?
No disagreement here. I think everything you said is fair. To play devils advocate though there were a lot of holes to patch up. O line was a mess, D line was a mess. We needed help at corner and safety. Needed to add a wr and replace the TE position. There was only so many things you could patch up in one offseason. The defense looks pretty good - especially the pass defense.
Bowen is doing a good job schematically. I have faith that he's the right guy for the job. The pass protection is better and we added a #1 wr. The Washington, Dallas and Cincy games were there for the taking and largely fall on the qbs shoulders. Diff qb = diff result in atleast 2 of those games.
I want to give Schoen one more year off of his 2024 draft and the fact that both him and Daboll identified Jayden as their qb if they could get him. But I understand why people don't want to give them that chance.
The fact is the 2022 season was a disaster in hindsight. It would have been hard selling the fanbase on ripping it down entirely. Jones should have never gotten that contract. Atleast the team can get out of it after this year. Personally, I want to give both of them a crack at it but like all of you I am sick of the merry go round of losing seasons. So I understand those who want new blood.
I understand that there were a lot of holes to patch up but there has to be priorities set and a huge hole all these years has been Jones to a degree. Would you agree? And what’s the best way to enhance Jones capabilities? You either go for position players and/or OL but preferably both. That’s your number 1 priority because the QB is the most important position on the field. Thus Cornerback and especially especially Safety should have been put as a backburner. Even RB, push it back. As well as an aging Tight End in Waller. They weren’t going to be Super Bow Contenders so why go after the aging TE rather than another OL and this year an OL instead of a Safety?
The idea should be to limit having to start Van Rotten, and Ezodeu be your #1 LT backup. Then we have excuses built-in again for Jones because of injuries excuse when in fact because the GM failed to build adequate depth we get stuck with historically bad Ol’s and guys like Van Rotten as starters.. OL are always getting hurt. Jones (or a new QB) will struggle mightily until the OL is fixed. We’ll see how the OL performs now that Thomas is out. I fear it won’t do well and the excuses will come out flaying again that JS can’t be adequately judged because of the injuries at OL when in fact it’s his possible incompetency in not addressing the OL enough by taking aging Tight Ends, and relying on injury prone OL in Neal, relying on “The Van Rotten’s, “and relying on Ezeudu’s as high up on the depth chart instead.
As far as “hard sell” I believe that is way overstated. They get paid big bucks to make “hard sell” decisions. And to further this it would no way have been a hard sell to go after a younger OL instead of going after an aging Waller as an example. And getting an OL instead of a Safety this past year. These aren’t hard sell decisions. They are logical decisions designed to give your QB the best chance to succeed. The Giants Offense was 3rd from the bottom last year. SO before JS came Giants Offense was 31st, then 16th in 2022,, but then in 023 back to 30th. Why take a safety in rd 2 vs getting another OL as an example in which you still had so many questions? And the Giants already had taken via trad an impact defensive player in Burns. And for those that say take BPA - then just trade down or up.
All is not lost though. If the OL holds up and does well, next year the trenches can be strong depending on pickups between FA and draft, they could be very tough without a top-tier QB. Though I don't share that confidnece that others might. Looking at past history I don't feel JS is high on physical football IMO history shows this. He just wants to "get just enough."
One GM was directly responsible for both mistakes, and that was Gettleman. I think people still don't quite understand the full scale to which that one GM has screwed up this franchise.
Reese inherited Coughlin,
Gettleman had inherited Rivera in Carolina,
Schoen was a first timer when he hired Daboll.
Mara needs to find a way to get someone in the organization who knows what it is the actually hire a winning coach. He tried to do that with EA (as other teams did as well) but I think he was just past his expiration date the last time they used his services (think that was around the DG hire?).
One GM was directly responsible for both mistakes, and that was Gettleman. I think people still don't quite understand the full scale to which that one GM has screwed up this franchise.
Gettleman was awful, but let's be clear - we sucked before Gettleman became our GM.
This is the same tired responses we;ve heard for years. Many used to stick up for DG and call many of us miserbale sob's stating to just give DG time. Some would say how we had all this young talent during Judge's 1st year and how we were set pretty well for the futurfe because we were among the youngest in the league.
pass rushers. Big factor in winning both those games and the playoffs.
You have to include all of the guys whom Schoen nudged out and are now pro bowlers. So to the Gettleman ledger, add Barkley, Engram, Love and McKinney. Not to mention the fact that the two best players on the current team are DL and AT, both Gettleman picks. So that is six current 2024 pro bowl players as compared to zero for Schoen. And because of Schoen's moronic DJ contract, a decision worse than any decision Gettleman ever made, the current team will likely be as bad or worse in terms of winning performance than any team Gettleman had.
As much I hated Gettleman, the idea that Schoen is better is pure delusional nonsense.
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that have set them back this past decade: sticking with Eli at QB for too long, and drafting Daniel Jones at #6 (which indirectly led to them sticking with him* for too long).
One GM was directly responsible for both mistakes, and that was Gettleman. I think people still don't quite understand the full scale to which that one GM has screwed up this franchise.
Gettleman was awful, but let's be clear - we sucked before Gettleman became our GM.
A lot of people have a tendency to disregard the 2016 season, like it never happened. But that was a big turning point for this team - they finished 11-5 and made the playoffs on the strength of a very good defense. The team should have built off of that, it wasn't a fluke - but there was the insistence that we run it back with Eli. And of course, the wheels fell off the bus in 2017.
The bottom line is that this team has been bad for the better part of a decade because the offense has been bottom-of-the league bad for most of the last decade - and the primary reason for that is due to insufficient performance from the QB position.
This team simply didn't have guts to pull the plug on Eli when it was time to move on, and then they reached for Daniel Jones in the draft when the situating became desperate - and only one GM was directly responsible for both of those mishaps.
They had a terrible roster, a terrible starting QB, a terrible cap situation, and to top it all off, the Giants had a the 5th overall pick in a draft that had zero legit QB prospects in it.
Schoen's first draft, the Giants had the 5th and 7th pick, in which they took Thibs and Neal. Obviously, the best thing for the franchise would've been the opportunity to draft a promising QB prospect.
The first QB drafted was Kenny Pickett at overall #20. The second was Desmond Ridder at #74. The rest of the QB class that draft was Malik Willis, Matt Corral, Bailey Zappe, Sam Howell, Chris Oladokun, Skylar Thompson, and Brock Burdy.
The following season, the impossible happened, and the Giants made the playoffs with a 9-7-1 record despite a bad roster and DJ, and won a playoff game. The following draft featured only one franchise QB, taken 2nd overall, in CJ Stroud. Sure, Bryce Hall went first, but it was another poor class for QBs, and the Giants drafted in the 20s.
But between those two seasons, Schoen had done good things. Brought in good players and got rid of bad contracts.
Then we get to 2024, again the Giants are left out in the cold for a chance to draft a premium QB, this time in large part because the team over-achieved relative to their roster, pretty much the theme under Daboll.
Cap hell has been eliminated, however. The team has gotten younger and more talented. The team keeps punching above their weight class, and the foundation seems strong, outside of the QB position.
Yet, some of you mooks think Schoen should be fired. He's done just about everywhere could do except get a legit QB in here, which has been virtually impossible relative to the circumstances, and without the benefit of hindsight.
This leadership team has been a huge success given their starting point and circumstances. HUGE. Those of you that only see the W-L record are fools. You are myopic and your rhetoric is a cancer.
There is one final move for this regime to take, and they have laid a foundation for success if they can execute that move successfully. And that is to get the premium QB prospect in the draft.
If they do this, that QB isn't going to join a team without talent like so many others who have been wasted... Like David Carr with the Texans or Sam Darnold on the Jets. He will have a chance. And that is Schoen's victory.
This was never a short turnaround. And if it was, it was undone by an ultimately meaningless playoff season in 2022.
Give. The full story, this is the leadership team I trust to usher in the next decade of success. And if you disagree, you're an impatient tool who can't see any nuance to the historical realities of this situation.