Been a minute since I dropped a thread but last night I sat in on my first game thread in awhile and holy shit.
First thing I'll state is yes, I agree its time to move on from Jones.
I also stand by my statement, above and what I've said before...we keep changing scheme, coach, coordinators & direction you create a level of uncertainty and frustration within the organization that lingers and gives no vote of confidence.
instability is a franchise killer, look at the Jets.
fans are frustrated but that really shouldn't matter because so many of you are unable to delineate this Schoen/Daboll era from previous eras. You blend it all together and that's not looking at things objectively. You're doing yourself a disservice
Also when you do that you are not taking in consideration the trials and tribulations needed to rebuild a franchise, you want the team to get better but also want to start rookies to develop them but also you want and expect it to happen overnight.
new flash, Nabers is a rookie he's gonna drop passes, Banks is only a sophomore he's gonna get burned, Tracy will have to make an adjustment too once defenses start to key on him. An when we draft a new QB he's gonna struggle too...
I have no doubts Evan Neal will get another chance and produce, Dexter needed 4 years to hit his prime. Same can be said for McKinney and Love.... and Its not too long ago fans called Barkley an injury bust. Well guess what they are saying now?
So now we are 2.5 years into our most current rebuild and the pitchforks are out and the Lynch mob is screaming for another blow up. Even though just 2 years ago this group took a depleted DG team to the playoffs. (Daboll won coach of the year)
Do you really want to do this again? Are we the fkn Jets?
-r
No, it is 2.5 years. What went on before is irrelevant. Aside from Jones, I can see more improvement than in those last other 10.5 years.
I know at the beginning of this season they believed that this QB gave them the best chance at winning . But after 5 losses and now 6 why are they still trying to run this guy out there knowing that he’s not the answer after 6 years.
what could happen if he gets injured. That would set us back deeper into the shit hole we’re currently trying to get out of. Please tell they’re not sitting him?
Why would you play Russian roulette here? The GM’s pride? What is it?
Even if the Giants retain Schoen and Daboll, the roster two seasons from now will look very different. The velocity of turnover in the NFL is severe.
But even if a new management and coaching group is hired, the least likely players to be jettisoned are players on rookie contracts. Nabers, Tracy, and Banks aren't good candidates to be moved.
The real underlying sentiment in this thread isn't about rebuilding, it's about retention. And this is the same message the OP espoused about Joe Judge.
Even if the Giants retain Schoen and Daboll, the roster two seasons from now will look very different. The velocity of turnover in the NFL is severe.
But even if a new management and coaching group is hired, the least likely players to be jettisoned are players on rookie contracts. Nabers, Tracy, and Banks aren't good candidates to be moved.
The real underlying sentiment in this thread isn't about rebuilding, it's about retention. And this is the same message the OP espoused about Joe Judge.
ding ding
Even if the Giants retain Schoen and Daboll, the roster two seasons from now will look very different. The velocity of turnover in the NFL is severe.
But even if a new management and coaching group is hired, the least likely players to be jettisoned are players on rookie contracts. Nabers, Tracy, and Banks aren't good candidates to be moved.
The real underlying sentiment in this thread isn't about rebuilding, it's about retention. And this is the same message the OP espoused about Joe Judge.
+1
It is about trusting the progress and verifying the process. So the only thing that matters is this: Do the people in place have the vision, competence and credibility to make the right decisions for this organization going forward?
The answer could not be more clear. NO. Neither Schoen nor Daboll have done anything to warrant any more time. Patience is only sensible and warranted when you have talent. Schoen is arguably worse than Gettleman. And Daboll is proving to be no better than the great triumvirate of McAdoo, Shurmur and Judge.
Wasting time by ignoring reality, chasing wind mills, and pursuing stability for the sake of stability is shortest path to ruin. In fact, the DJ Era will now forever be eponymous with the maxim that "the path to hell is paved with good intentions."
Even if the Giants retain Schoen and Daboll, the roster two seasons from now will look very different. The velocity of turnover in the NFL is severe.
But even if a new management and coaching group is hired, the least likely players to be jettisoned are players on rookie contracts. Nabers, Tracy, and Banks aren't good candidates to be moved.
The real underlying sentiment in this thread isn't about rebuilding, it's about retention. And this is the same message the OP espoused about Joe Judge.
was waiting for this response. Ill address it now., Yes I advocated sticking with Judge another year but that's because I believe that all coaches for the most part know what they are doing (they have been doing it for decades), it's the players understanding the scheme/plan provided by the coach. That takes time which relates back to consistency and familiarity. I see it as 20/80
Injuries also can stalemate growth, aka Evan Neal
Agree on retention but it takes most players 3-4 years to develop and by then they are at their 5th year option so there's always a risk there.
IMO, I think Schoen/Daboll should get 2 more seasons together. 1 to draft their QB and another to develop. also at that time their 2021-22-23 draft picks can be fairly evaluated...... then a final decision can be made.
Does that make sense to anyone else?
Just like 2 years ago, 5 years ago and probably even 10 years ago...there are only a few core players on this roster worth keeping. So start there. If it takes you too long to think about who is/isn't core then your list is already too long.
Obviously guys on cheaper rookie contracts that have shown ability to be credible starters should also get a good amount of consideration. Although that isn't all of them, especially on some where 5th year options are coming up quickly and have not solidified their respective value proposition for a second contract.
Everything is about the draft. And finding better talent at the most important positions on the field. And that starts at QB above all. Stop delaying this decision, and add not just one guy but probably two QBs. And keep considering prospects basically every year until you fill the job properly.
A few other key positions that need attention but where college prospects aren't plentiful are CB, Edge and OT. Large resources at WR, RB and LB allow for talent to be found in later rounds...so do that.
Shorter term roster fills come from free agency. Longer term investments come from draft or the occasional "splash" spend which is subject to actually showing improvement on field.
Whether its Schoen/Daboll or some other tandem doing the above is actually lesser in importance (at least to me) than making sure this is the rebuilding plan that happens.
was waiting for this too.
It appears Wash found their franchise QB. We'll see, but that is 1/2 of the 80% I mentioned in my above post.
The players most likely to be moved under a new regime are the same players likely to be moved under the current regime -- underachieving, expensive, or unreliable players.
Just as Schoen didn't carpet bomb the roster, the next GM won't.
All you're really saying is you want Daboll and Schoen to get 5 years. Which is ostensibly what you implied about Judge.
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Rebuilds don't work the way some poorly informed fans believe they do.
Even if the Giants retain Schoen and Daboll, the roster two seasons from now will look very different. The velocity of turnover in the NFL is severe.
But even if a new management and coaching group is hired, the least likely players to be jettisoned are players on rookie contracts. Nabers, Tracy, and Banks aren't good candidates to be moved.
The real underlying sentiment in this thread isn't about rebuilding, it's about retention. And this is the same message the OP espoused about Joe Judge.
was waiting for this response. Ill address it now., Yes I advocated sticking with Judge another year but that's because I believe that all coaches for the most part know what they are doing (they have been doing it for decades), it's the players understanding the scheme/plan provided by the coach. That takes time which relates back to consistency and familiarity. I see it as 20/80
Injuries also can stalemate growth, aka Evan Neal
Agree on retention but it takes most players 3-4 years to develop and by then they are at their 5th year option so there's always a risk there.
IMO, I think Schoen/Daboll should get 2 more seasons together. 1 to draft their QB and another to develop. also at that time their 2021-22-23 draft picks can be fairly evaluated...... then a final decision can be made.
Does that make sense to anyone else?
I agree with you on the 2 years idea. Or just fire them now, as in this week.
The constant hot seat is absolutely detrimental to building. Right now they are probably thinking that every win is important to retaining their jobs. That is bad.
Bringing them back and putting them right back on the hot seat, as measured by 2025 wins is not helpful to actually rebuilding.
So either fire them now, sell off assets, play young guys, and treat the next 9 games as the 1st step of another rebuild. Or commit to these guys as the ones who are going to go through the next phase.
Until that changes and gets fixed, nothing will be different.
The players most likely to be moved under a new regime are the same players likely to be moved under the current regime -- underachieving, expensive, or unreliable players.
Just as Schoen didn't carpet bomb the roster, the next GM won't.
All you're really saying is you want Daboll and Schoen to get 5 years. Which is ostensibly what you implied about Judge.
No Christian, I want the whole system to continue as is (with some tweaks of course), I want things to be consistent and stable. I want to let those rookies or cost controlled players develop under the staff that drafted them to fit the purpose that was envisioned them having. Keeping the schemes in place which will accelerate the growth.
It's all about giving players the best path to develop. That is what I'm saying.
I don't want just a playoff berth, I want a dynasty again.
Gettleman got to hire his own coach but kept Eli around. I don't think Eli was the problem but others might think he was. Decisions were most likely made to try to keep the window open longer and try to compete. Gettleman got the chance to draft his own QB and pick 2 coaches. He left the team with a mess of bloated contracts the worst being Golladay who he signed the year before he left.
We enter 2025 in pretty good shape contract wise. Jones will be off the books with minimal harm. Thomas provided he is healhty and Dex are the 2 big contracts but they live up to those contracts. It really doesn't make sense to bring in a new QB especially in the draft with a coach who will be on the hot seat. So you draft a QB and bring in a new coach but keep the GM who chose the recently fired coach, resigned the recently cut/traded QB and has a very spotty record of drafting.
If they finish as bad as we think they will, you start with a new GM, HC and QB. That's a rebuild.
I am not sure many will agree that the key to winning is hire anyone, but fire no one.
Exactly. I’m still waiting for an actual rebuild. Most teams in rebuilding mode have $80+ million in cap space and a surplus of draft picks. When was the last time we had either?
Until QB is addressed the “rebuild” is still half assed.
Until QB is addressed the “rebuild” is still half assed.
It's not a rebuild of the most important position is a failure. Year two everyone knew. The timeline gets screwed up if you don't address the QB correctly
This isn't exactly an all in type roster no matter what some here insist upon saying. The D has some financial weight to it but we're talking about THREE players.
Look back at the 2009 Giants on a relative scale. That team was paying probably closer to 15-18 players BIG cap money. Canty. Osi. Tuck. Bernard? Kiwi? Webster. Rolle. The entire OL. Eli. Both RBs were coming up and got paid by 2010. The only position that was cheap was WR.
We're paying closer to 8-9 guys like that now and that might be generous.
I know this team isn't ready to win so it's probably a good thing that they are in decent cap shape but doesn't look all in to me. This looks like a rebuild with a VET QB everyone hates. Oh wow we have Burns, Okereke and Dex. Wooopy.
Maybe ask yourself why this team couldn't wait to sign Jones to that deal. Ask yourself why they didn't even THINK about bringing in a highly paid backup. Why. I guess it can't be because Jones was going to come cheap. And safe. And calm.
It's all bullshit. Some of you are getting mad at Mara for all the wrong reasons. Follow the money.
A gazillion dollars on the OL to prop up our gazillion dollar investment at QB, all in the name of getting...the 26th best QB play, same as it was in 2021.
We spent more money in the 00s through 12. I will die there. Sorry. But again, I will add that maybe it's not such a bad thing since this team sucks so maybe it's OK for now.
Also, I prefer to compare us to Philly and Dallas and Wash.
The giants seem weirdly only half invested in your 'alpha guys' theory in that they've paid good money for guys like Burns and Okereke, which has paid off well, but for some weird reason believe doing that for the offense if off limits.
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A gazillion dollars on the OL to prop up our gazillion dollar investment at QB, all in the name of getting...the 26th best QB play, same as it was in 2021.
IT's not a gazillion. Not even close. Thomas is highly paid. Runyan got good money for a FA guard but if he was elite he'd be getting more than that. The RT got jack shit compared to what McKenzie got here in 05.
We pay for average players. We draft average players. We suck. THe QB can be the face of it all I don't care.
IT was a bad business move. It was a bad football move. It was a bad PR move. Some of you just don't want to admit it.
Based on what you've seen Jon, do you have faith in Schoen and Dabes?
We spent more money in the 00s through 12. I will die there. Sorry. But again, I will add that maybe it's not such a bad thing since this team sucks so maybe it's OK for now.
Also, I prefer to compare us to Philly and Dallas and Wash.
That chart shows where the Giants have invested their money.
This table shows how much cash each NFL team has committed over this and the next 5 years on paper today. The Giants are 13th in the NFL.
Yea, he sucks alright. He's only the best offensive skill player in the NFC East. Don't believe me? Ask philly what they think. Ask anyone outside this echo chamber.
The Giants FUCKED up. You know it. I know it. EVERYONE knows it.
Both. Simple.
And don't worry the ride has closed. I am done. This isn't an argument in my book. it's a slam dunk fact. I don't need to have anyone agree. I see it every week.
You don't pay slobs the money you can pay star talent.
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also stink
Based on what you've seen Jon, do you have faith in Schoen and Dabes?
In their respective jobs, they appear green as grass to me, Schoen especially. You'd like to think they'll improve over time, but for me The Schoen Reign is nearing its end, and it's time to move on.
If you look at the Giants cash outlay over chunks of time relative to the league, they are consistently in the top 3rd of the league.
You can argue the Giants could/should roll more money from cash paid today into future caps, and I wouldn't disagree. But the Giants aren't operating cheaply.
Yea, he sucks alright. He's only the best offensive skill player in the NFC East. Don't believe me? Ask philly what they think. Ask anyone outside this echo chamber.
The Giants FUCKED up. You know it. I know it. EVERYONE knows it.
Better a year early than a year late with RB.
Why is it irrelevant?
Some of the players from before the current regime are the foundational building blocks on this roster, aren't they? How can you claim that the rebuild process does not include Thomas and Lawrence (and, on the negative side, Jones)?
It may not be an easy linear track because of the regime change, but some of the key players upon which this roster is being rebuilt came from 2019 and 2020. That's where the rebuild starts even with the regime change, if you're being honest about it (IMO).
Teams both turnover significantly, and keep the core players YoY.
Teams both turnover significantly, and keep the core players YoY.
That's an indictment of the current regime - everyone you named was drafted by Gettleman. And gettleman was awful.
You're fundamentally unsold on the general concept of a HC calling plays on offense?
What would it take to sell you? Would back-to-back Super Bowl championships sell you? Or would you need a threepeat to even consider it?
Teams both turnover significantly, and keep the core players YoY.
That's an indictment of the current regime - everyone you named was drafted by Gettleman. And gettleman was awful.
Retaining 6 contributing players from 3 years ago isn't abnormal. Two of them are great players when healthy (Thomas/Lawrence), one is a solid cheap veteran (Slayton), one is a cheap situational pass rusher (Ojulari).
As is regularly the case, all paths lead back to our friend Jones. He's the retained player who is expensive and sucks.
Why not seek improvement?
Mike Vrabel is inarguably a better head coach than Brian Daboll. Head coach is a key position; we should seek to improve there if the opportunity is available (which it is).
The Giants are consistently shitty. I don't want consistency.
Not sure he's a program builder but he definitely a legit HC and comes with less risk. Mara is obsessed with finding the next great HC on his own watch. He wants HIS guy. Not a retread. That's annoying to me.
We spent more money in the 00s through 12. I will die there. Sorry. But again, I will add that maybe it's not such a bad thing since this team sucks so maybe it's OK for now.
Also, I prefer to compare us to Philly and Dallas and Wash.
You're asking the wrong questions because you're looking at it wrong. It doesn't matter that the Giants are paying an average amount at QB because they're not getting average production there. They would get approximately the same production from a UDFA (we saw this with our own eyes last season), so that effectively means that even with what you consider an average spend at QB, the Giants are playing with a $39M handicap vs. opponents (in cap terms).
There's only so much water a boat can take on before it sinks. And DJ's cap hit vs. on-field production is a gaping hole in the hull.
Let that sink in.
Let that sink in.
Yeah, we all saw the 2022 Giants also. I'm not sure you're going to get a "eureka" moment from this crowd when we all know that you can squeak out a winning record with a crappy offense occasionally.
But coming off that winning record with a garbage offense, did the Steelers talk themselves into returning their entire QB room from the prior year?
Seems to me they were able to see through the distraction of a winning record to recognize that their roster still needed improvement in key areas, so they set out to address those areas in a variety of ways.
If he does as much dumb shit as Daboll has done, then yes. I wouldn't expect that, though.
Why not seek improvement?
Mike Vrabel is inarguably a better head coach than Brian Daboll. Head coach is a key position; we should seek to improve there if the opportunity is available (which it is).
The Giants are consistently shitty. I don't want consistency.
I'm trying to reach you guys here,
improvement comes through consistency that's why. I thought I clearly conveyed that in multiple posts.
Why is this hard???
I'll just close with this.
For the blow it up and start again crowd, we've done your way 4 times now. It's not working.
Why not try mine?
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Why is consistency desired when the current standard is so poor?
Why not seek improvement?
Mike Vrabel is inarguably a better head coach than Brian Daboll. Head coach is a key position; we should seek to improve there if the opportunity is available (which it is).
The Giants are consistently shitty. I don't want consistency.
I'm trying to reach you guys here,
improvement comes through consistency that's why. I thought I clearly conveyed that in multiple posts.
Why is this hard???
It's hard because what you're saying makes no sense.
The only consistency with the Giants is ownership and its inability to hire the right people.
The Giants are consistently inept. They need to acknowledge that and hand the keys to someone intelligent.
was waiting for this response. Ill address it now., Yes I advocated sticking with Judge another year but that's because I believe that all coaches for the most part know what they are doing (they have been doing it for decades),
I understand the appeal behind this belief: you want to be able to assume that professionals are always qualified to do their job. But there are many head coaches that demonstrate early and often that they simply can't do the job despite their supposedly translatable experience and credentials.
IT was a bad business move. It was a bad football move. It was a bad PR move. Some of you just don't want to admit it.
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In comment 16665425 Go Terps said:
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Why is consistency desired when the current standard is so poor?
Why not seek improvement?
Mike Vrabel is inarguably a better head coach than Brian Daboll. Head coach is a key position; we should seek to improve there if the opportunity is available (which it is).
The Giants are consistently shitty. I don't want consistency.
I'm trying to reach you guys here,
improvement comes through consistency that's why. I thought I clearly conveyed that in multiple posts.
Why is this hard???
It's hard because what you're saying makes no sense.
The only consistency with the Giants is ownership and its inability to hire the right people.
The Giants are consistently inept. They need to acknowledge that and hand the keys to someone intelligent.
it makes total sense, you just don't like it bc you are close minded.
when the opposite is probably more true. Not everyone is destined to be a winner with patience and consistency is not always a good thing. Knowing when its not is not easy though.
Just 4 coaches currently have won a SB with their current teams (Reid, Tomlin, Harbaugh and McVay) and another three won previously (McCarthy, Payton, and Pederson).
7 out of 32 coaches have won a SB and just 4 with their current teams and your idea to be true would be just wait it out on the other 25 and they'll eventually win or wait it out for the 28 coaches who haven't won with their current team.
GMs are probably similar, but data is not as accessible.
And if you're wrong, meaning the coach was probably never going to win, shouldn't you trust your gut and make the move to replace them sooner rather later? Nothing is definite but signs are there. Recognizing when you have the wrong people in the wrong roles and making the hard decision at the right time to replace them is one of the functions of leadership.
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Why is consistency desired when the current standard is so poor?
Why not seek improvement?
Mike Vrabel is inarguably a better head coach than Brian Daboll. Head coach is a key position; we should seek to improve there if the opportunity is available (which it is).
The Giants are consistently shitty. I don't want consistency.
I'm trying to reach you guys here,
improvement comes through consistency that's why. I thought I clearly conveyed that in multiple posts.
Why is this hard???
Because improvement is *not* guaranteed to come from consistency.
Schoen has goofed in talent evaluation, but not enough to doom him. He straightened out a horrible, horrible cap situation.
Ignoring HC (not an option, but force the tunnel vision), I'd give him more time. IF you want a new HC, it comes down to philosophy. Bring in a GM/HC combo, or bring back Schoen and possibly sticking his replacement (in a year or two) with Daboll's replacement (brought in at end of season).
HC, IMO, is like a young QB: 3 years is enough time to know if he's a failure. Maybe not enough time to show if he's a keeper. I lean toward thinking Daboll is trending toward failure.
I would keep Schoen, dump Daboll, and bring in a new QB and HC. I don't want to acquire a new QB and then have Daboll get fired a year or two later, forcing the QB (especially a draftee) to learn a new system.
Apple showed flashed of being solid. But he was lazy, unmotivated, and could not play the ball or tackle. Banks is on the same track.
Flowers just sucked. Did not have the feet to play tackle. I thought Neal had a better work ethic but it just doesn’t seem to be working out with him. Have to wonder if he is injured.
2--- We’re in year 3 now and our OL is again on the verge of being “bad.” And the excuse is going to be “injuries.” When in fact it’s the same issue after 2022 that the GM isn’t doing the job of getting sufficient quality depth. Right now after 3 years the team doesn’t stop the run very well. They don’t run the football very well. And they don’t pass the ball well. And this is supposed to translate to giving the GM more time? Yes are some high priority basics of football.
3—Anyone agreeing with the OP is missing the point is that instability doesn’t cause losing. Incompetency causes losing resulting in instability. Th instability comment is nothing more than excuse that will always give the incompetent more time than they deserve.
4--- For those that say the Giants were so devoid of talent and need time to rebuild, then where were they when they Giants didn’t go into rebuild after 2022? They were making excuses for the Philly debacle, and excuses because a guy like Jones should have been signed for the money that he got., and making excuses for the 2023 OL even though the depth sucked.
5--- Not saying fire JS and or BD right now. But we’ll see how team performs rest of the way. Right now their showing hasn’t been good enough.