Vacchiano: It would take something drastic to fire Daboll

Does anyone thini Schoen is firing him? They are close friends. He isn't doing it willingly. He'd have to be forced.

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High standards.

accurate is if they all have agreed that this season is about getting the young guys performing, fleshing out the keepers and letting JOnes go at the end of the year.

The worst part of 2022 is the notion that they just need to get healthy and play "smarter".. I was worried they might be looking at a reverse 2022- having a plus win loss back half of the season and that may still be their crazy thinking.

If we beat Washington and Carolina then we for sure stuck with Jones until the end. I can't believe I am saying this, as it is so not me, but I kind of hope Washington just owns us (at home) and we finally see the last vestige of Jones defense (he plays washington well) goes out the window..

Honestly, if Daboll keeps talking Jones up then he can go bye bye too. Tired of all of this bullshit..

I kind of want a defensive HC anyway..

In comment 16666516 Go Terps said:

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High standards.

Fiesty is usually labelled for a smaller opponent with a big attitude and loud bark, not exactly something you say about a winning or possibly winning football team.

I agree with you about this Washington game. If NYG wins then you are most likely looking at 4-6 at the bye and I'd doubt they'd even be sellers. Going 0-6 in the division and I think Mara (maybe with pressure from Tisch) would have a tough time not making big changes.

With a win Sunday you could see the equivalent of a DeVito mini run from last year and all of a sudden you've got NYG thinking they are in contention.

0-4, outscored 93-31 in four home games.

0-3, outscored 69-36 in three divisional games.

Feisty.

This feels like a Mara barometer game.

This organization does not want yet another HC.

2016-2024: 4 (not including Spags)
1983-2015: 5

5 in a decade after 5 over 42 years... yea, old school Mara does not want that to happen. I can't really blame him for not wanting to do that either.

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why would we not make the upgrades?

In comment 16666521 Sean said:

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This feels like a Mara barometer game.

Sounds about right since this story coming from Vacchiano sounds like a message to Daboll & Co. from ownership.

In comment 16666522 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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This organization does not want yet another HC. 2016-2024: 4 (not including Spags) 1983-2015: 5 5 in a decade after 5 over 42 years... yea, old school Mara does not want that to happen. I can't really blame him for not wanting to do that either.

33 year smh, you get the point though.

In comment 16666520 Go Terps said:

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0-4, outscored 93-31 in four home games. 0-3, outscored 69-36 in three divisional games. Feisty.

That is 'something drastic.' What more do they need?

it’s getting tiresome. Daboll going or staying is a distant second to who our next QB is and how soon he’s walking through the door.

Do fans really not know what 'feisty' is referring to?
The team is still playing hard. The context is simple: Coaches can lose a team when they are not winning, you don't tend to keep coaches where their team's roll over.

I am not saying to keep Daboll or not, nor am I defending him here. I just was a bit surprised that fans are having a difficult time with the term 'feisty' in the context that it was presented.

In comment 16666537 ChrisRick said:

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Do fans really not know what 'feisty' is referring to? The team is still playing hard. The context is simple: Coaches can lose a team when they are not winning, you don't tend to keep coaches where their team's roll over. I am not saying to keep Daboll or not, nor am I defending him here. I just was a bit surprised that fans are having a difficult time with the term 'feisty' in the context that it was presented.

I think the fans understand, we just hold our coaches/team/players to a higher standard than "they didn't quit, yay!".

vs WSH
vs CAR (Germany)
Bye
vs TB
at DAL
vs NO

It's hard in the NFL to go 2-15, need everything to deconstruct. It's easy to see 3-2 in the next five and NYG is 5-8 and right in line for 6-11 or 7-10. Everyone back including Jones and the injury to Andrew Thomas is the reason the front office thinks the season didn't go better.

It's so easy to see it playing out this way.

based on what exactly?

if things go well, we likely win the CAR game and that's it.

But I can't say I'm surprised.

Also, I don't care if they fired him and went elsewhere, but I want a leader. They haven't had a leader of a coach since Coughlin left. Even then, I feel like Reese and Co were letting him down with the horrid drafts. Daboll just does not prepare his team like winning coaches do. A new QB is surely welcoming, but my belief in the man leading this team is sorely low.

In comment 16666539 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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In comment 16666537 ChrisRick said: Quote: Do fans really not know what 'feisty' is referring to? The team is still playing hard. The context is simple: Coaches can lose a team when they are not winning, you don't tend to keep coaches where their team's roll over. I am not saying to keep Daboll or not, nor am I defending him here. I just was a bit surprised that fans are having a difficult time with the term 'feisty' in the context that it was presented. I think the fans understand, we just hold our coaches/team/players to a higher standard than "they didn't quit, yay!".

I don't think it was meant to be a 'standard'. I think it was meant as an observation that the team has not quit on Daboll. I imagine most teams examine how hard the team is playing for a coach that is losing. I don't see what the fuss is here.

In comment 16666516 Go Terps said:

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High standards.

Don't forget that Daniel Jones is fiery! It only took him 6 years, so let's give the rest of the guys some time.

Scoring no TDs at home
Letting Barkley run wild all over them
Swinging gate disaster humiliation

If they add Barkley part 2
No wins in the division

that should be enough, thats a disaster by any reasonable perspective

The feisty team with the fiery QB continues to fail on the football field.

In comment 16666537 ChrisRick said:

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Do fans really not know what 'feisty' is referring to? The team is still playing hard. The context is simple: Coaches can lose a team when they are not winning, you don't tend to keep coaches where their team's roll over. I am not saying to keep Daboll or not, nor am I defending him here. I just was a bit surprised that fans are having a difficult time with the term 'feisty' in the context that it was presented.

People know what feisty means. The point is it's bullshit.

I think this looks like a whole different team if you insert a quality QB who doesn't pull everything down.

In comment 16666553 UberAlias said:

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I think this looks like a whole different team if you insert a quality QB who doesn't pull everything down.

I'm not. There are obvious upgrades available. If we don't hire, e.g., Vrabel, then someone else might. And when we're looking for a new coach the following year the crop might not be as good. Similar to how some people see the QB search playing out last year versus this year.

In comment 16666553 UberAlias said:

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I think this looks like a whole different team if you insert a quality QB who doesn't pull everything down.

Daboll is part of the reason Jones is there, as well as part of the reason there is no viable backup.

Jones also isn't the reason the team got fisted in the home opener for the second year in a row, or the reason they've lost games two years in a row due to kicker mismanagement on the roster.

I helped build the Daniel Jones sucks bandwagon that everyone is currently on, and I'm telling you he is not the only problem with this team. The Giants are not well coached or well managed.

Something drastic like having a bottom five offense or being part of a group paying $100 million for a QB who can't throw touchdowns?

But I'm not going to cry if they if they stick with Daboll.

That's some serious back patting there. Go back and watch the reaction when DJ was drafted. It was the most infuriating draft pick for most of us.

at going 0-6 in our division. Nothing can be more damning than that in my opinion.

In comment 16666562 UberAlias said:

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That's some serious back patting there. Go back and watch the reaction when DJ was drafted. It was the most infuriating draft pick for most of us.

If I went back to the threads where he got paid would I find a lot of infuriated posters?

I didn't say that to pat myself on the back. I'm saying it because based on my criticism of him I'd be as motivated as anybody to pin it all on Jones.

Jones is awful - he's a middling backup in the NFL - but he isn't the only problem with this team.

In comment 16666554 Mike from SI said:

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In comment 16666553 UberAlias said: Quote: I think this looks like a whole different team if you insert a quality QB who doesn't pull everything down. I'm not. There are obvious upgrades available. If we don't hire, e.g., Vrabel, then someone else might. And when we're looking for a new coach the following year the crop might not be as good. Similar to how some people see the QB search playing out last year versus this year.

The QB argument is kind of funny because it ignores the fact that the three elite QB prospects were off the table. That said, if they look to upgrade and go after someone else, I'm all for it. I'm not arguing that Daboll needs to stay.

In comment 16666552 Go Terps said:

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In comment 16666537 ChrisRick said: Quote: Do fans really not know what 'feisty' is referring to? The team is still playing hard. The context is simple: Coaches can lose a team when they are not winning, you don't tend to keep coaches where their team's roll over. I am not saying to keep Daboll or not, nor am I defending him here. I just was a bit surprised that fans are having a difficult time with the term 'feisty' in the context that it was presented. People know what feisty means. The point is it's bullshit.

For fucks sakes, I am agreeing with you again ;)!

Thanks for the Fiesty clarification and let me be more clear- I don't give a FUCK.. This team was S T D Monday night- Stupid, Timid and Depressed (or Depressing).

BTW- Pittsburgh is that great of team and Wilson wasn't great a number of times and yet was light years better than what we had.

This is a barometer game for one single reason, one single John Wayne holding on by a root over the edge of Cliff reason (for Mara) and that is this:

Jones:
68 games played he has 68 TD Passes

8 games against Washington he has 12 TDs

Other 60 games he has 56 TD passes That is less than 1 TD pass per game.

Against Washington- 1.5 TD passes per game

Jones has 24 total wins and 5 of those have come against Washington..

If Jones struggles here, against Washington and at home it will be the last glimmer of hope some are holding on to.

Let's see how Davoli and the team respond, because those are two different tracks when things start go off the rails.

This means nada on 10/30.

In comment 16666566 Go Terps said:

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In comment 16666562 UberAlias said: Quote: That's some serious back patting there. Go back and watch the reaction when DJ was drafted. It was the most infuriating draft pick for most of us. If I went back to the threads where he got paid would I find a lot of infuriated posters? I didn't say that to pat myself on the back. I'm saying it because based on my criticism of him I'd be as motivated as anybody to pin it all on Jones. Jones is awful - he's a middling backup in the NFL - but he isn't the only problem with this team.

Fair enough. And you're right, he's not the only problem.

There will be probability 7+ openings.

Some of them will come with QBs (possibly Chicago and Cincinnati)

Most of them will come with more job security (the Giants will have fired 5 coaches in 10 years.)

Some of them will have offers of total control for a guy like Vrabel

Few of them will come with a potential lame duck GM, which the Giants might have

Few of them will have a team owner as the unfireable Director of Player Personnel (along with all the other dumb Mara friends and family who just want to hang out with the team)

It's a very unattractive job. We will be looking at lower end retreads (McCarthy types) and coordinators who have been passed over for the last few cycles.

In comment 16666574 Jerry in_DC said:

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It's a very unattractive job. We will be looking at lower end retreads (McCarthy types) and coordinators who have been passed over for the last few cycles.

I completely agree with this. I actually think McCarthy is one of the favorites to be the next coach.

That won't blow anyone's hair back, but he'd be a better match for this team than Daboll. I don't think the Giants are where you go to learn how to become a head coach.

It might placate Mara to have a yes man, but what he *needs* is someone to lead the football department.

In comment 16666523 Jints in Carolina said:

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I was going to say 3-14, but I'm an optimist.

In comment 16666577 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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It might placate Mara to have a yes man, but what he *needs* is someone to lead the football department.

Mara does not make decisions on what the team "needs." If it did he would have hired an SVP of Football Operations and removed himself from all football related decisions based on his abjectly horrible record.

Mara will make decisions the way he always has - looking at fan reaction.

Don't lose the locker room or become an embarrassment at the podium.

Feels like it always back fires when they let stuff like this leak through their mouthpieces. I've argued in the past they should publicly back their guy but I've wavered on that. Maybe say nothing and just see how Daboll responds to the adversity.

If they stick with Jones than the "drastic" will happen yet again. Start DeVito already.

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And then they fired him.

In comment 16666601 jeff57 said:

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And then they fired him.

Yep. It could go down that way, can't rule out yet.

In comment 16666601 jeff57 said:

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And then they fired him.

This is true, however, Daboll is a playoff coach and former coach of the year. Judge didn't sniff the success Daboll has had here. I think that buys him enough time with Mara. (Not saying I agree with him)

Certainly feels like the organization is giving Schoen and Daboll a pass based on Jones and they get to reboot the reboot next off season.

Some people excuse Daboll on the basis that he has been stuck with Jones at QB. Not certain how that explains the failure to develop a competent OL and the lack of a DL to complement Lawrence. The continued mental mistakes by his players and countless penalties and failure to execute. The failure to stop the run or defend the pass at critical times. The failure to have a kicker available when the red flags could not have been any larger. The turnover in his coaching staff after two years. He picks the team and he is included in the evaluation process with the GM of potential draft choices and free agents. He picks his assistant coaches. It's all part of the job.

I would not fire the guy yet, but being "stuck" with Jones at QB is no excuse for the performance of this team overall.

keeping Schoen and Daboll on. Replace Jones with a QB Daboll can develop and let’s go.

All you can hang your hat on is that this type of stuff was said before Judge got the boot as well.

Although, it does feel 100% different this time. Schoen and Daboll are managing and coaching like this year doesn’t matter to them.

A logical conclusion can be drawn that it doesn’t.

In comment 16666619 Arnie D. said:

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keeping Schoen and Daboll on. Replace Jones with a QB Daboll can develop and let’s go.

+1, I agree.

Daboll has people open, DJ just can't find them, or hit them, unless they are his beloved 5 yd slant. The team is competing. DJ is the cancer here not Daboll IMO. Get a functioning NFL QB and we are contending. Its all the QB at this point

In comment 16666621 Chris684 said:

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All you can hang your hat on is that this type of stuff was said before Judge got the boot as well. Although, it does feel 100% different this time. Schoen and Daboll are managing and coaching like this year doesn’t matter to them. A logical conclusion can be drawn that it doesn’t.

Yeah, it is odd. Like ok, Jones is beat of bad so we just play him and what happens happens.

I think we sign a Vet and draft a guy..

I would explore getting Richardson though. Colts basically said Flacco for starting for rest of the year.

In comment 16666623 PatersonPlank said:

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In comment 16666619 Arnie D. said: Quote: keeping Schoen and Daboll on. Replace Jones with a QB Daboll can develop and let’s go. +1, I agree. Daboll has people open, DJ just can't find them, or hit them, unless they are his beloved 5 yd slant. The team is competing. DJ is the cancer here not Daboll IMO. Get a functioning NFL QB and we are contending. Its all the QB at this point

A QB that Schoen and Daboll signed, brought back again after 2 neck injuries, and who they ultimately have kept around for their entire 3 year tenure.

It must be nice to be able to distance yourself from your own failures the way Schoen and Daboll have here. They’re doing a wonderful job at that.

In comment 16666623 PatersonPlank said:

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In comment 16666619 Arnie D. said: Quote: keeping Schoen and Daboll on. Replace Jones with a QB Daboll can develop and let’s go. +1, I agree. Daboll has people open, DJ just can't find them, or hit them, unless they are his beloved 5 yd slant. The team is competing. DJ is the cancer here not Daboll IMO. Get a functioning NFL QB and we are contending. Its all the QB at this point

So is there no accountability for giving "the cancer" the largest contract in franchise history (by gross dollars and percent of cap)?

In comment 16666515 robbieballs2003 said:

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.

It means the team is Daniel Jones, duh!

In comment 16666568 jvm52106 said:

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In comment 16666552 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 16666537 ChrisRick said: Quote: Do fans really not know what 'feisty' is referring to? The team is still playing hard. The context is simple: Coaches can lose a team when they are not winning, you don't tend to keep coaches where their team's roll over. I am not saying to keep Daboll or not, nor am I defending him here. I just was a bit surprised that fans are having a difficult time with the term 'feisty' in the context that it was presented. People know what feisty means. The point is it's bullshit. For fucks sakes, I am agreeing with you again ;)! Thanks for the Fiesty clarification and let me be more clear- I don't give a FUCK.. This team was S T D Monday night- Stupid, Timid and Depressed (or Depressing). BTW- Pittsburgh is that great of team and Wilson wasn't great a number of times and yet was light years better than what we had. This is a barometer game for one single reason, one single John Wayne holding on by a root over the edge of Cliff reason (for Mara) and that is this: Jones: 68 games played he has 68 TD Passes 8 games against Washington he has 12 TDs Other 60 games he has 56 TD passes That is less than 1 TD pass per game. Against Washington- 1.5 TD passes per game Jones has 24 total wins and 5 of those have come against Washington.. If Jones struggles here, against Washington and at home it will be the last glimmer of hope some are holding on to.

1 game in 2019 skews his numbers against Washington where he put up 5 TDs. So that's 7 in 7 games since?

In comment 16666630 Chris684 said:

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In comment 16666623 PatersonPlank said: Quote: In comment 16666619 Arnie D. said: Quote: keeping Schoen and Daboll on. Replace Jones with a QB Daboll can develop and let’s go. +1, I agree. Daboll has people open, DJ just can't find them, or hit them, unless they are his beloved 5 yd slant. The team is competing. DJ is the cancer here not Daboll IMO. Get a functioning NFL QB and we are contending. Its all the QB at this point A QB that Schoen and Daboll signed, brought back again after 2 neck injuries, and who they ultimately have kept around for their entire 3 year tenure. It must be nice to be able to distance yourself from your own failures the way Schoen and Daboll have here. They’re doing a wonderful job at that.

I think sticking with Jones this year was a Mara decision. They got him a WR and an improved OL, and it was his year to sink or swim. I believe, abased on Hard Knocks, that Daboll was against this, but it wasn't his decision. Finally I think he was told to do his best with Jones this year, and if it doesn't work out then he gets to pick his new QB for next year.

I agree this is all my opinon, and based on just reading between the lines of what I have seen and read. However everyone else's statements on here are opinions also. No one knows the real conversations that have happened.

and of course Mara stinks.

In comment 16666650 kelly said:

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and of course Mara stinks.

That's actually a reasonable conclusion.

But Daboll stinks less than the others because he coached the team to the playoffs in 2022 with Gettleman's roster.

The more Schoen has put his fingerprints on the roster, the poorer the team has performed. Did Daboll suddenly forget how to coach or are we seeing the impact of Schoen putting together his roster?

I know this is minor in the grand scheme of things, but what evidence is there that this team is 'feisty'? Our number #1 pick from last year has waved the white flag on multiple plays this year.

Because how do you quantify if a coach hired for his offensive acumen can do the job when the quarterback cannot play good football even when supported with the offensive line and a star WR?


"Everything sucks" isnt considered analysis, its dis-satisfied customer leaving a review. There are elements to this team that dont suck, that they did get right, and because they lose games they should win due to having no capable passer, it gets lumped into fire everyone, burn it down.

They hit on every improvement they tried to make, served it to the QB to go win games with, and he cannot stop pissing the bed.

Daboll was one voice in a 3-person triangle making the decision on daniel jones and nobody, anywhere knows what he actually thinks.

In comment 16666656 bw in dc said:

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In comment 16666650 kelly said: Quote: and of course Mara stinks. That's actually a reasonable conclusion. But Daboll stinks less than the others because he coached the team to the playoffs in 2022 with Gettleman's roster. The more Schoen has put his fingerprints on the roster, the poorer the team has performed. Did Daboll suddenly forget how to coach or are we seeing the impact of Schoen putting together his roster?

I think it's possible Daboll just got off to an anomalous fast start due to a weak schedule. He's 12-24-1 since the 6-1 start.

We spotted Jones's 2022 as false, we should probably do the same for Daboll.

Two years in a row his team entered the season unprepared, and two years in a row his roster mismanagement directly resulted in losses.

I don't think anything we're seeing now is any better than what we saw under Gettleman, Shurmur, and Judge. The only difference is no one sounds as stupid as Gettleman when they talk.

In comment 16666531 Del Shofner said:

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In comment 16666520 Go Terps said: Quote: 0-4, outscored 93-31 in four home games. 0-3, outscored 69-36 in three divisional games. Feisty. That is 'something drastic.' What more do they need?

+1. If what we've been seeing isn't drastic, what is?

Offense to score touchdowns. This is now a proven fact and therefore has no value starting games at QB.

The others haven’t hit rock bottom yet.

I like Daboll and I like his style of offense. I really want him to succeed, but he just hasn't.

In comment 16666680 christian said:

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I like Daboll and I like his style of offense. I really want him to succeed, but he just hasn't.

For as fiery as we see Daboll on game day, I wonder why he seemed so passive on HK regarding QB.

In comment 16666681 Sean said:

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In comment 16666680 christian said: Quote: I like Daboll and I like his style of offense. I really want him to succeed, but he just hasn't. For as fiery as we see Daboll on game day, I wonder why he seemed so passive on HK regarding QB.

It was obvious he wanted Daniels. And it was obvious he wasn't thrilled about running it back with Jones.

In comment 16666681 Sean said:

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I like Daboll and I like his style of offense. I really want him to succeed, but he just hasn't. For as fiery as we see Daboll on game day, I wonder why he seemed so passive on HK regarding QB.

Either HBO did a great job of orchestrating the character, or Daboll truly is a passenger on Schoen's boat.

Some guys are OK not putting their shit on the line for the big decisions. Daboll strikes me as that type. He seems very in charge of the coaching part, and not all that confident in the personnel part. That's not all that surprising. Brian Daboll didn't get a vote in Buffalo.

just move on from the QB, that's all I ask

In comment 16666684 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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It was obvious he wanted Daniels. And it was obvious he wasn't thrilled about running it back with Jones.

What kind of plan is that, though? You can't get the quarterback you want, so continue with the dumpster fire you have?

I still can't believe the way they handled the QB position in the offseason. If that's how it bore out, "enter the season with Jones/Lock/DeVito" is not a serious plan. It's like saying "I can't afford business class from JFK to London, so I'm just going to fucking swim there."

In comment 16666686 christian said:

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In comment 16666681 Sean said: Quote: I like Daboll and I like his style of offense. I really want him to succeed, but he just hasn't. For as fiery as we see Daboll on game day, I wonder why he seemed so passive on HK regarding QB. Either HBO did a great job of orchestrating the character, or Daboll truly is a passenger on Schoen's boat.

Remember, supposedly the doves at 1925 Giants Way didn't like way Daboll conducted himself on the sidelines. So, he has reportedly made a focused effort to act more controlled.

I think that's what we saw on HK as well...

In comment 16666694 Go Terps said:

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In comment 16666684 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: It was obvious he wanted Daniels. And it was obvious he wasn't thrilled about running it back with Jones. What kind of plan is that, though? You can't get the quarterback you want, so continue with the dumpster fire you have? I still can't believe the way they handled the QB position in the offseason. If that's how it bore out, "enter the season with Jones/Lock/DeVito" is not a serious plan. It's like saying "I can't afford business class from JFK to London, so I'm just going to fucking swim there."

GT, I agree 100%. I cannot get over the fact we went into this season with that QB depth chart.

Papa admitted that Jones is not the QB of the future.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 16666597 bceagle05 said:

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But what if they were feisty?

In comment 16666695 bw in dc said:

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In comment 16666686 christian said: Quote: In comment 16666681 Sean said: Quote: I like Daboll and I like his style of offense. I really want him to succeed, but he just hasn't. For as fiery as we see Daboll on game day, I wonder why he seemed so passive on HK regarding QB. Either HBO did a great job of orchestrating the character, or Daboll truly is a passenger on Schoen's boat. Remember, supposedly the doves at 1925 Giants Way didn't like way Daboll conducted himself on the sidelines. So, he has reportedly made a focused effort to act more controlled. I think that's what we saw on HK as well...

You like Daboll, understood. But even if I give you 2022, how does that explain the following?

Country club training camp 2023 followed by obvious roster cutdown mistakes, Eric Gray as punt returner, cutting Crowder, Ezeudu at left tackle and 40-0 to open the season at MetLife. Then there was the first incident with a Graham Gano injury and having him attempt a game winner in the rain while injured. Not to mention his GM (and friend) was forced to listen in on his gameday communications operation because his sideline became a circus.

Fast forward to 2024 and we open with the same inexcusable non-competitive performance, Graham Gano injury incident number 2 and his failure to elevate a healthy kicker, Ezeudu at Left Tackle again, 0-3 in the division so far, non competitive on offense with him calling the plays and clearly going backwards in general.

I’ve been accused of being a Pollyanna on this site for many years (even though I’m not) but I do generally lean towards patience and optimism. However, I see a reason for neither right now. Not in any way with Schoen and Daboll.

In comment 16666730 Chris684 said:

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In comment 16666695 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 16666686 christian said: Quote: In comment 16666681 Sean said: Quote: I like Daboll and I like his style of offense. I really want him to succeed, but he just hasn't. For as fiery as we see Daboll on game day, I wonder why he seemed so passive on HK regarding QB. Either HBO did a great job of orchestrating the character, or Daboll truly is a passenger on Schoen's boat. Remember, supposedly the doves at 1925 Giants Way didn't like way Daboll conducted himself on the sidelines. So, he has reportedly made a focused effort to act more controlled. I think that's what we saw on HK as well... You like Daboll, understood. But even if I give you 2022, how does that explain the following? Country club training camp 2023 followed by obvious roster cutdown mistakes, Eric Gray as punt returner, cutting Crowder, Ezeudu at left tackle and 40-0 to open the season at MetLife. Then there was the first incident with a Graham Gano injury and having him attempt a game winner in the rain while injured. Not to mention his GM (and friend) was forced to listen in on his gameday communications operation because his sideline became a circus. Fast forward to 2024 and we open with the same inexcusable non-competitive performance, Graham Gano injury incident number 2 and his failure to elevate a healthy kicker, Ezeudu at Left Tackle again, 0-3 in the division so far, non competitive on offense with him calling the plays and clearly going backwards in general. I’ve been accused of being a Pollyanna on this site for many years (even though I’m not) but I do generally lean towards patience and optimism. However, I see a reason for neither right now. Not in any way with Schoen and Daboll.

Everyone liked this year's training camp. It was "tougher, more physical".
So does the "tough camp" matter? It sounds like something fans just complain about when they have a win/loss result they don't like.

Everyone wants "build thru the draft" until you play picks and they're not successes. Everyone wants "play the kids" until the kids play and the results aren't satisfying.

If we all agree that offensive line coaching was bad (it was) and needed to be changed (it did), and the results of the new offensive line coach thru week 5/6 were good, (they were), then what exactly was the bad decision on seeing if Ezeudu had developed after two years of bad coaching? It wasn't a bad decision. It was a bad *result*.

In comment 16666730 Chris684 said:

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You like Daboll, understood. But even if I give you 2022, how does that explain the following? Country club training camp 2023 followed by obvious roster cutdown mistakes, Eric Gray as punt returner, cutting Crowder, Ezeudu at left tackle and 40-0 to open the season at MetLife. Then there was the first incident with a Graham Gano injury and having him attempt a game winner in the rain while injured. Not to mention his GM (and friend) was forced to listen in on his gameday communications operation because his sideline became a circus. Fast forward to 2024 and we open with the same inexcusable non-competitive performance, Graham Gano injury incident number 2 and his failure to elevate a healthy kicker, Ezeudu at Left Tackle again, 0-3 in the division so far, non competitive on offense with him calling the plays and clearly going backwards in general. I’ve been accused of being a Pollyanna on this site for many years (even though I’m not) but I do generally lean towards patience and optimism. However, I see a reason for neither right now. Not in any way with Schoen and Daboll.

Let me be clearer. I do like Daboll, but I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep if we moved on. Of all of the constituent players in this soap opera, I just believe he's shown to be the most competent.

The points you raised about 2023 are fair. But I would counter that Daboll kept the team together and won games with an undrafted free agent rookie QB and a 35-year-old back-up. And with a bottom of the barrel OL. (Ironically, it was probably to the detriment of the team this year because some of those wins - wins I would call meaningless - came at a material toll: draft position...)

The 2024 season hasn't reflected well so far on anyone in this organization.

reading the same stuff on Joe Judge....even later in the year.
When it goes bad then shit happens.

The clown show comments and the qb sneak got him fired.

Otherwise he might have made it.

Dabol's a smarter guy.....he'll keep his cool.

In comment 16666771 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 16666730 Chris684 said: Quote: In comment 16666695 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 16666686 christian said: Quote: In comment 16666681 Sean said: Quote: I like Daboll and I like his style of offense. I really want him to succeed, but he just hasn't. For as fiery as we see Daboll on game day, I wonder why he seemed so passive on HK regarding QB. Either HBO did a great job of orchestrating the character, or Daboll truly is a passenger on Schoen's boat. Remember, supposedly the doves at 1925 Giants Way didn't like way Daboll conducted himself on the sidelines. So, he has reportedly made a focused effort to act more controlled. I think that's what we saw on HK as well... You like Daboll, understood. But even if I give you 2022, how does that explain the following? Country club training camp 2023 followed by obvious roster cutdown mistakes, Eric Gray as punt returner, cutting Crowder, Ezeudu at left tackle and 40-0 to open the season at MetLife. Then there was the first incident with a Graham Gano injury and having him attempt a game winner in the rain while injured. Not to mention his GM (and friend) was forced to listen in on his gameday communications operation because his sideline became a circus. Fast forward to 2024 and we open with the same inexcusable non-competitive performance, Graham Gano injury incident number 2 and his failure to elevate a healthy kicker, Ezeudu at Left Tackle again, 0-3 in the division so far, non competitive on offense with him calling the plays and clearly going backwards in general. I’ve been accused of being a Pollyanna on this site for many years (even though I’m not) but I do generally lean towards patience and optimism. However, I see a reason for neither right now. Not in any way with Schoen and Daboll. Everyone liked this year's training camp. It was "tougher, more physical". So does the "tough camp" matter? It sounds like something fans just complain about when they have a win/loss result they don't like. Everyone wants "build thru the draft" until you play picks and they're not successes. Everyone wants "play the kids" until the kids play and the results aren't satisfying. If we all agree that offensive line coaching was bad (it was) and needed to be changed (it did), and the results of the new offensive line coach thru week 5/6 were good, (they were), then what exactly was the bad decision on seeing if Ezeudu had developed after two years of bad coaching? It wasn't a bad decision. It was a bad *result*.

This camp seemed better optically I guess, but then again many of us were calling for Jones to play the last preseason game, God forbid, and of course he didn’t and came out sucking again.

Why continue with Ezeudu at LT after the disaster of last season? It was Ezeudu who was so non-competitive at the position that Jones’s neck got lit up again. Pugh was memorably “straight off the couch” and better than Ezeudu the minute he showed up. This along with the Gano thing prove to me that Daboll is stubbborn or doesn’t seem to learn from his mistakes. Not a great sign.

Also, Evan Neal loafing around doing nothing in a lost season, even after Thomas got hurt makes no sense to me. They are lacking any sense of urgency.

In comment 16666811 Chris684 said:

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I Why continue with Ezeudu at LT after the disaster of last season? It was Ezeudu who was so non-competitive at the position that Jones’s neck got lit up again. Pugh was memorably “straight off the couch” and better than Ezeudu the minute he showed up. This along with the Gano thing prove to me that Daboll is stubbborn or doesn’t seem to learn from his mistakes. Not a great sign. Also, Evan Neal loafing around doing nothing in a lost season, even after Thomas got hurt makes no sense to me. They are lacking any sense of urgency.

It's the GM who makes the roster. Schoen watches the games, presumably. He could have admitted his mistake in drafting Ezeudu, cut him loose and replaced him with someone more useful.

In addition to the useless Ezeudu, there is the currently useless Neal, whom Schoen also drafted.

Once Schoen went out and got Daboll someone else to play tackle (Hubbard), Daboll played him.

Dabes will be retained, no matter what. It's all about the QB now. I still feel we'll be wasting a year or two in the process. But I'm willing to wait until next season to see him improve as a HC. Ah, the glacial pace things move at 1925 Giants Drive...

Too many coaching changes over the years imo. Same shit different day.

My main issue with Daboll/Schoen is their resume is heavily built around Josh Allen being a freak and a current MVP favorite again. Mahomes is the best player in the league, but Allen is a clear 2nd and doing more of a carry job. Lamar and Burrow are there too.

They tried to convince themselves that Jones’ running/size combo could lead to success in a similar way, they were wrong.

I don’t want to change coaches/FO, but the they’ve swung and missed on QB so far at least. Which is big since a young QB is what got them these jobs.

A new quarterback in the 2025 is a must. GM and coach should stay and get the new shiny thing at qb.. It is a with great anxiety that Schoen/Daboll willl be picking the next quarterback but a regime change seems counterproductive at this time. We have to get it right, I hope, because it is about time we get out of quarterback hell. Wishful thinking but dreams can come true. I choose to think positive because why not. We are due for good news on the quarterback position..

He wasn't gonna fire Judge until that disaster press conference.

Short of open rebellion or a Judgian meltdown in front of the press, Schoen and Daboll are gonna be here next year.

is using similar logic with Daboll that he did with Jones:

With Jones - Its unfair to evaluate him without a OL or WR1

With Daboll - Its unfair to evaluate him without a real QB


I'm going to be frank, I haven't loved everything Daboll has done and I'd still like a little bit more consistency between the well coached and poorly coached games, but we'd have a winning record with a league average QB and he's a better coach than the 3 we fired before him.

Ownership will still owe Daboll 2 seasons of salary if he's fired after this year. That doesn't matter to the fans, but it does to the guy making the final decision, and will be a factor if it is a close call. Right now, it's a close call, at worst.


Dabs has to really go off the rails to be fired in-season, and it is way too early for there to be serious talk in-house about his chances of return. As someone said, don't believe anything leaking (intentionally or not) at this date.

The Giants will beat Carolina and the Buc - then beat the Colts at home and win at the Eagles because the play the JV team.

They'll finish the season with 5 wins pick number 8.

The GM will come out and say it's a 3 QB draft, they won't be able to get any of them and then they'll run the entire thing back claiming that the team and DJ showed great improvement down the stretch finishing 3-4 in their last 7 including a big road win against PHL.

We are are right in line with same cycle we've seen the last decade.

In comment 16666705 Sean said:

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Papa admitted that Jones is not the QB of the future. Link - ( New Window )

Is he still bitching out fans who thought that from the word go?

Which one of the cognoscenti was telling everyone what a bargain the Giants got with Jones' contract?

In comment 16666705 Sean said:

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Papa admitted that Jones is not the QB of the future. Link - ( New Window )

"What are the options at this point?"

Yeah, Bob, that's the problem when you go into the season with Jones, Lock, and DeVito as your QBs.

And also, yeah people on X do to "bat ... nuts" when they've been telling you for 6 years that Jones isn't the guy and you've been condescending and smug in lockstep with the organization.

In comment 16666619 Arnie D. said:

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keeping Schoen and Daboll on. Replace Jones with a QB Daboll can develop and let’s go.

glad to see a fan who gets it. sign of intelligence is refreshing to see.

this constant change shit needs to stop.

In comment 16667258 Rory said:

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In comment 16666619 Arnie D. said: Quote: keeping Schoen and Daboll on. Replace Jones with a QB Daboll can develop and let’s go. glad to see a fan who gets it. sign of intelligence is refreshing to see. this constant change shit needs to stop.

What also needs to stop is the unforced errors week in and week out with this offense. It has really hindered the offense and has taken away a couple TD's recently, too.

I'm all for drafting a kid and letting him play, but there really hasn't been offensive development under Daboll. If there is anybody, I'd love to hear it.

In comment 16666540 Sean said:

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vs WSH vs CAR (Germany) Bye vs TB at DAL vs NO It's hard in the NFL to go 2-15, need everything to deconstruct. It's easy to see 3-2 in the next five and NYG is 5-8 and right in line for 6-11 or 7-10. Everyone back including Jones and the injury to Andrew Thomas is the reason the front office thinks the season didn't go better. It's so easy to see it playing out this way.

It's so easy to see up to 6 weeks in advance, and know who's going to be hurt or healthy, and who's going to play better or worse, for the six teams involved in those games?

It's not even easy to see what's going to happen in just the next game.

In comment 16667270 Toth029 said:

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In comment 16667258 Rory said: Quote: In comment 16666619 Arnie D. said: Quote: keeping Schoen and Daboll on. Replace Jones with a QB Daboll can develop and let’s go. glad to see a fan who gets it. sign of intelligence is refreshing to see. this constant change shit needs to stop. What also needs to stop is the unforced errors week in and week out with this offense. It has really hindered the offense and has taken away a couple TD's recently, too. I'm all for drafting a kid and letting him play, but there really hasn't been offensive development under Daboll. If there is anybody, I'd love to hear it.

There was a ton in 2022. SB got better, A new QB situation will enhance that.

In comment 16667258 Rory said:

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In comment 16666619 Arnie D. said: Quote: keeping Schoen and Daboll on. Replace Jones with a QB Daboll can develop and let’s go. glad to see a fan who gets it. sign of intelligence is refreshing to see. this constant change shit needs to stop.

What needs to stop is the constant hiring of unqualified people.

News at 11.

You get what you pay for.

Cheap cost controlled GM. Cheap cost controlled HC. Shitty fucking results.

Keep looking for that white whale there Jonny.

In comment 16666611 Ben in Tampa said:

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In comment 16666601 jeff57 said: Quote: And then they fired him. This is true, however, Daboll is a playoff coach and former coach of the year. Judge didn't sniff the success Daboll has had here. I think that buys him enough time with Mara. (Not saying I agree with him) Certainly feels like the organization is giving Schoen and Daboll a pass based on Jones and they get to reboot the reboot next off season.

Who know what Mara thinks at any point in time? This is an owner who said on 1/16/23 that "We're back!".

In their very next 10 quarters of football, the team was outscored 98-7.

I'm still waiting for Mara to again say "We're back!", and for Daboll to again lead the Giants to the playoffs and to again win Coach of the Year.

and sad to see how low the standards have become for this once proud franchise.

and hire FOUR, not one or even two but FOUR straight unproven HCs.

I can't believe people here the nerve to question any fan's take that the owner might be looking to save money first before doing everything in his power to win.

We keep on questioning the strings being pulled behind the scenes. And maybe some of that is true and that belief or fear is warranted. Still, the biggest question of all is whether ownership does everything within its financial power to ensure the best possible product is being put on that field every week. IS it? Can you really and truly say so? Ever since the new stadium was built this team hasn't been the same. Remember there were articles detailing that the financial ship for Mara and Tisch took on a lot of water those first few years.

The day they sign the most expensive vet HC/GM combo is the day I shut my mouth. Ill wait.

In comment 16666537 ChrisRick said:

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Do fans really not know what 'feisty' is referring to? The team is still playing hard. The context is simple: Coaches can lose a team when they are not winning, you don't tend to keep coaches where their team's roll over. I am not saying to keep Daboll or not, nor am I defending him here. I just was a bit surprised that fans are having a difficult time with the term 'feisty' in the context that it was presented.

Saved me from saying it. You are precisely correct.

In comment 16666656 bw in dc said:

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In comment 16666650 kelly said: Quote: and of course Mara stinks. That's actually a reasonable conclusion. But Daboll stinks less than the others because he coached the team to the playoffs in 2022 with Gettleman's roster. The more Schoen has put his fingerprints on the roster, the poorer the team has performed. Did Daboll suddenly forget how to coach or are we seeing the impact of Schoen putting together his roster?

More the undeniable and inevitable fall back to earth of our current QB after an aberrant 2022 season.

In comment 16667341 Go Terps said:

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In comment 16667258 Rory said: Quote: In comment 16666619 Arnie D. said: Quote: keeping Schoen and Daboll on. Replace Jones with a QB Daboll can develop and let’s go. glad to see a fan who gets it. sign of intelligence is refreshing to see. this constant change shit needs to stop. What needs to stop is the constant hiring of unqualified people.

are you dumb, do you not get the message?

2.5 years is not enough body of work to make that evaluation.

cut the shit.

what I said about Mara. I don't hate the guy. I respect and even admire the Mara ownership tradition here, warts and all. I do think he wants to win. I do think he tries to win. But I have to be honest in saying I don't think they have the financial resources other NFC east teams have and I think it's fair to speculate that the new stadium build has been a factor in that.

Simply put, if this team was locked into a bidding war for a big time HC in the off-season, now or in 25-26-27, against the likes of Dallas or Philly? I think we'd lose out. If Belichick told teams he would go to the highest bidder, we lose out.

Just my take. I don't have an ax to grind with Mara nor do I want to get into a debate. I just don't think we can hang with the big boys at times. And it shows. This isn't about the cap.

Partly due to the organizational upgrades they’ve made. Schoen changed many of the scouts, upgraded systems and now had two legit prospective GMs working for him. No ones debating that he made some mistakes in his first couple of seasons but the 2024 draft class has been good. Daboll now has a bona fide OL coach and Bowen appears to be a very capable DC. This is way better than when Freddie Kitchens was the OC, Gettleman was selecting underscouted players (Toney) and that incompetent DC was serving under Shurmur.

We’re supposed to give up on this so that idiot Mara can grope his way to another GM hire?

but both have had misses. It's hard to resurrect moribund teams. Keep saying it. It's the hardest thing to do in pro sports. For every turnaround you see 2-3 others stay shitty.

In comment 16667465 Rory said:

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In comment 16667341 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 16667258 Rory said: Quote: In comment 16666619 Arnie D. said: Quote: keeping Schoen and Daboll on. Replace Jones with a QB Daboll can develop and let’s go. glad to see a fan who gets it. sign of intelligence is refreshing to see. this constant change shit needs to stop. What needs to stop is the constant hiring of unqualified people. are you dumb, do you not get the message? 2.5 years is not enough body of work to make that evaluation. cut the shit.

I get the message, it's just that when you're the one delivering it it sort of invalidates the whole premise.

.

In comment 16667496 djm said:

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but both have had misses. It's hard to resurrect moribund teams. Keep saying it. It's the hardest thing to do in pro sports. For every turnaround you see 2-3 others stay shitty.

Agree. That said, the elite and consistently excellent teams *all have misses*.

The 49ers whiffed on Lance. Belichick could fill a dumpster with failed offensive players and Mac Jones. The Ravens miss on WRs left and right. The Chiefs totally missed on their entire offensive line a few years ago.

Its just like the team on the field. One miss or drop is received like the world is ending because they cannot score points, so they dont win games.


It just goes back to not being able to throw the football.

I just never come away from Giants games feeling "this team is well coached". The entire operation feels shaky - I don't have faith that they're communicating well, that they're prepared from a roster standpoint, or that they have a full understanding of clock and timeout management.

I'll add also that it's telling that Barkley and McKinney are doing so well in their new destinations. I didn't want either guy back, but what does it say that their utilization has gone through the roof now that they've left the Giants?

In comment 16667578 Go Terps said:

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I just never come away from Giants games feeling "this team is well coached". The entire operation feels shaky - I don't have faith that they're communicating well, that they're prepared from a roster standpoint, or that they have a full understanding of clock and timeout management. I'll add also that it's telling that Barkley and McKinney are doing so well in their new destinations. I didn't want either guy back, but what does it say that their utilization has gone through the roof now that they've left the Giants?

They aren't the ones that are telling. Bobby Johnson, Ben Bredeson, those two are much more telling.

In comment 16667405 gridirony said:

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Who know what Mara thinks at any point in time? This is an owner who said on 1/16/23 that "We're back!". In their very next 10 quarters of football, the team was outscored 98-7.

And to emphasize the point about Mara, "WE'RE BACK!" was his exclamation after winning a WILD CARD game. Not the Super Bowl. Not the NFC Championship Game. Wild Card.

In comment 16667578 Go Terps said:

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I just never come away from Giants games feeling "this team is well coached". The entire operation feels shaky - I don't have faith that they're communicating well, that they're prepared from a roster standpoint, or that they have a full understanding of clock and timeout management. I'll add also that it's telling that Barkley and McKinney are doing so well in their new destinations. I didn't want either guy back, but what does it say that their utilization has gone through the roof now that they've left the Giants?

Two of our better players that wanted to be paid more than the Giants were willing are playing well in their new homes?

I think it says, "not really a surprise" to most. Does it say something else to you?

In comment 16667598 ThomasG said:

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In comment 16667578 Go Terps said: Quote: I just never come away from Giants games feeling "this team is well coached". The entire operation feels shaky - I don't have faith that they're communicating well, that they're prepared from a roster standpoint, or that they have a full understanding of clock and timeout management. I'll add also that it's telling that Barkley and McKinney are doing so well in their new destinations. I didn't want either guy back, but what does it say that their utilization has gone through the roof now that they've left the Giants? Two of our better players that wanted to be paid more than the Giants were willing are playing well in their new homes? I think it says, "not really a surprise" to most. Does it say something else to you?

It tells me they weren't well utilized while they were here.

If it takes six years to evaluate a crap quarterback, it must take at least a decade to evaluate a crap management team? But hey, who needs NFL football success in New York in the coming decade anyway? We have pro baseball, hockey and basketball again!

They both may be more congenial than their predecessors, but posterity will ultimately show that Schoen is no better and may actually be worse than Gettleman, and Daboll is no better than McAdoo/Shurmur/Judge. There is zero need for patience when it is crystal clear what the problem is. And now, after six years of hearing that the quarterback could not be evaluated properly because he was limited by his coaches, weapons and OL, we are hearing that the GM and Head Coach can't be evaluated properly because they are limited by their quarterback! The very quarterback for whom they themselves insanely committed! It was crystal clear who DJ was before he was drafted. He is exactly who he always was. There was never a need for patience to evaluate DJ. It was pure delusion from the start. And likewise, it is crystal clear right now that Schoen and Daboll will not be leading this franchise to the promised land. No further data needed.

Disparaging people who have been off these two guys since the DJ contract is gaslighting of the highest order. Why? Because the decision making apparatus of this ownership now goes beyond the traditional definition of insanity of doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results. It has now evolved to this ownership knowing with certainty that what they're doing is completely idiotic, but still, somehow, they just can't stop doing it.

Patience for the sake of patience rather than accepting the blinding insight of the utter obvious is one of the dumbest takes I have ever seen on this site. Patience is not a virtue in this sport, it is just subterfuge for concealing incompetence. Delusion, denial and self-preservation are nothing more than the three headed Cerberus that keeps this franchise trapped in NFL hell.

with more playmakers. Not a surprise.

Xavier played every down at Safety last year for NYG. Is he playing somewhere else for Green Bay?

In comment 16667578 Go Terps said:

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I just never come away from Giants games feeling "this team is well coached". The entire operation feels shaky - I don't have faith that they're communicating well, that they're prepared from a roster standpoint, or that they have a full understanding of clock and timeout management. I'll add also that it's telling that Barkley and McKinney are doing so well in their new destinations. I didn't want either guy back, but what does it say that their utilization has gone through the roof now that they've left the Giants?

Absolute no-shows on opening night for 2 straight seasons is exhibit A. I get it, practice time pre-season is limited, but every other team is subject to the same rules

Kevin O’Connell with the Vikes was basically mocking the Giants after our week 1 no show this year, about how his team was better prepared and in better shape

That says everything

If 2-6 becomes 4-13 that would more than qualify as drastic at 1925 Giants Way. 4-13 seems like a realistic possibility.

team isn't well coached. Delay of game penalties, constant holding,linemen downfield, illegal motion.......never ends.

with moving on. Some of the overall decision-making has been baffling or was downright the wrong move. I still can't believe they made the mistake they did with Gano two years in a row..After '22 I thought Jones was going to be the bridge QB as they develop the next guy, except Jones regressed so much once the NFL exposed the '22 pony tricks and they didn't bring in any QBs to develop. I was impressed what they accomplished with a shit roster in '22 but things have gotten worse instead of better. It doesn't feel like the arrow is pointing up except for some of the rookies.

In comment 16667644 HardTruth said:

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That says everything

What's drastic about a year that's been as consistent and equal as the past 6 years?