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Why don't I have the same confidence in Fewell as Spags?

JoefromPa : 2/21/2012 12:19 pm
Let me make this point before explaining myself. I am not a real good x and o guy like some on this site. So my opinion about Fewell might be based on perception rather than fact.

But it seems to me that Fewell's defense is almost entirely dependent on the front four creating pressure. He doesn't seem as willing or maybe as capable as Spagnuolo was in creating different bliz packages to create pressure.

For most of this past season my lack of confidence in Fewell was justified and shared by most.

However, even after the run began, it seemed to me that there were many games, where the Giants defense caught a break in a big spot with a poor throw or drop by the offense.

I keep remember the first Cowboy game, and even the unsual number of poor throws by Rogers in the play off game.

Even in the Super Bowl, during the two touchdown drives by the Patriots it seemed recievers were comming off the line, untouched, going down field a few yards open and running for yards after the catch. There never seemed to be any thought by them of throwing deep and yet the Giants made no adjustments.

Even in the second half, on the Patriots drive before the Giants went ahead, it seems like the Patriots stopped themselves as much as anything.

On the final Patriot drive, 1st play, how far was the receiver going had that pass been thrown just a bit more ahead of him.

I have been trying to convince myself, that the Giants defense really stepped up in the post season, and statistics say they did.

But somehow it didn't pass the eye test.

Tell me where I am wrong.
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.  
mort christenson : 2/21/2012 12:21 pm : link
People like to point out that Rodgers had a bad game  
Sneakers O'toole : 2/21/2012 12:22 pm : link
But I don't think bad games just happen. Fear of pressure can make that happen. I think the Giants defense did a great job of dictating to the offenses they faced down the stretch.
Not to be sarcastic,  
Big Blue '56 : 2/21/2012 12:22 pm : link
but we just won the SB in no small part due to Fewell's guidance and obviously getting healthier..

When we went 1-4 after Plax went down, would Fewell have fared better than Spags did?
Because Spags is better?  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/21/2012 12:24 pm : link
Duh.
Well,  
Wuphat : 2/21/2012 12:26 pm : link
Quote:
Tell me where I am wrong.


They held the Falcons, Packers, 49ers, and Patriots to an average of 13.5 points.

And if you add in the Jets and Cowboys game when the turnaround began, then they held opponents to 13.67 points per game.

For a defense to hold opponents to less than 2 TDs per game when it really matters the most against teams that are in do or die situations is pretty stunning.

I was not a fan of Fewell throughout the season, but whatever adjustments were made worked and players stepped up their game.

He's earned another shot, IMHO.
I think Fewell is better equipped  
Go Terps : 2/21/2012 12:26 pm : link
to handle the heavy passing offenses we see in the NFC right now.
I'd guess because you  
bob in tx : 2/21/2012 12:27 pm : link
just don't.
Wup,  
Big Blue '56 : 2/21/2012 12:28 pm : link
good post
Bob,  
Big Blue '56 : 2/21/2012 12:29 pm : link
how much confidence does Neelo have?
It might be an electrolyte problem.  
Sarcastic Sam : 2/21/2012 12:29 pm : link
Have you checked your magnesium level lately?
Ah, the "Eye Test".  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/21/2012 12:29 pm : link
The same eye test that would have had Eli Manning out of the league five years ago.
We won  
AnishPatel : 2/21/2012 12:30 pm : link
with Fewell but I am not confident in our system. I still want to see more games. I had made my decision when the defense was one big shit show. However, to Fewell's credit the players met with him, and he changed things. We got healthier, and our D played well.

I still we rely WAY to much on our pass rush. Even with that we still managed to fuck up coverages at least once a game including the super bowl.

I remember Spags bringing all sorts of pressure via A gap. Blitzing Ross from the slot, and showed great use of personnel packages. I saw something on extremeskins which made me laugh. They were ranking DCs, and someone wrote. How hard is it to tell Tuck and Osi, Hey, get the QB! The rest of you guys just play defense, lol. Obviously that's simplistic, but I think we rely way too much on the pass rush, and even then our back end still manages to fuck up.

So, even after this one, I am not confident, but now I went from fire that fool, to let's see how things shake out next year. Can we actually start playing good defense from the get go, and carry it throughout the season, even when there is more tape on what we are trying to do? I guess I will take another wait and see approach.
neelo is confident  
bob in tx : 2/21/2012 12:31 pm : link
so long as we have Reese,Eli and TC...in that order.
Bingo  
Blue Blood : 2/21/2012 12:32 pm : link
for WUP...

now imagine if this defense had...

Goff playing at MLB..

Thomas playing the starting corner opposite Webster.

Ross playing the slot...

Rolle actually being able to play FS which is his natrual position...



the NFL game has evolved since Spags  
JonC : 2/21/2012 12:32 pm : link
Fewell, while he will put a clunker out there, seems better equipped to scheme against these passing attacks. Pressure from the front four, and contain the downfield chunks, increase red zone success, etc.

NYG looked to be playing into NE's hands for a chunk of the SB, but they figured it out and got it done.

It's not to say Spags couldn't evolve his schemes too, but we did just win a SB with Fewell.
Anish, you go with your strength my friend.  
Big Blue '56 : 2/21/2012 12:33 pm : link
Ours is and has been the pass rush. Mitigates more potential problems in the back 7, than you would have had you had a mediocre pass rush..If your pass rush is strong, than you don't necessarily have to have strong back 7s..Conversely, of you have an average to decent pass rush, you BETTER have a stronger back 7...

Too, do we rely "way too much" on Eli? ;)
I see no impartial evidence that Spags is better than Fewell  
PatersonPlank : 2/21/2012 12:36 pm : link
One could claim they are equal, but I have just as much confidence in one as the other. They are both extremely good DC's. The defenses playoff run was phenomenal, every bit as good (if not better) than the 2007 run.
Blitzing the likes of Rodgers and Brees  
Go Terps : 2/21/2012 12:36 pm : link
is suicide. Just look at their season opener against each other. A defensive monstrosity.

Sounds like you're criticizing Fewell for  
Giantgator : 2/21/2012 12:37 pm : link
getting pressure with the front four, which is what every team in the league wants to do, but usually can't. During this SB run, we were able to clog the passing lanes, forcing teams like the Pats to dink and dunk and limiting the YAC. They never got a big play all game. That's a good front four, and good coaching.
I agree w/ Wup  
Danny Kanell : 2/21/2012 12:37 pm : link
for the most part. One thing I will say though, Fewell's defense solely relies on pressure from the front 4. We just happen to have a great front 4. You saw how his defense looked when our front wasn't 100% healthy and wreaking havoc.

I dont think his style of defense would translate to 95% of the NFL. Spags on the other hand, has shown more of an ability to mask deficiencies and create on the fly.

For the Giants, at this point, Fewell is likely the better fit but I think overall, Spags is the better coach.
PP  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/21/2012 12:37 pm : link
The defense in SB 42 held the record breaking 18-0 Pats offense to 14 points. If you don't see the difference between that defense and this defense you should look alittle harder.
Spags has a ring  
Blue Blood : 2/21/2012 12:38 pm : link
Fewell has a ring..

Right now they are equal.. period..
'56  
AnishPatel : 2/21/2012 12:38 pm : link
LOL. Going with your strength is fine. However, in this sport there are injuries, so you need to be able to have a plan B, C, and perhaps D. Why did it take so long for Fewell to change the defense? Also, I remember hearing, the players after the skins game, before the Jets game, went to Fewell to ask him for a change. He did, which is great, but what happens if they don't go to him? Does he make the change on his own, or do we keep the shit show we were running?

I understand the pass rush is our strength, but if things went to shit, I trust Spags in coming up with something creative rather than Fewell.

Fewell gets props for adjusting the defense though. But overall, for me he goes from red back to grey, meaning I will once again take a wait and see approach with him.
Anytime  
Blue Blood : 2/21/2012 12:39 pm : link
you hold the opposing offense under 14 points you are doing a great job.. period..
Let's see...  
arcarsenal : 2/21/2012 12:40 pm : link
In the playoffs we shut out Atlanta's offense... and beat the top 2 QB's in the entire league en route to winning a Super Bowl.

People on this site have become WAY too enamored with Steve Spagnuolo. He was a great DC here and everyone should love what he did. But people talk about him like he's some mastermind legend who can just never be replaced.

Once we got healthy and made a couple of adjustments, this defense was very good. Even last year, in Fewell's first with the Giants, we got to the QB and forced turnovers better than anyone. That's how you combat the high powered offenses in the league today. As Terps and others have said, I think Fewell understands what you need to do in order to shut them down.
We are talking about who the better DC is  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/21/2012 12:40 pm : link
just because they both have a ring doesn't mean there isn't a discussion to be had..."period"
We held the Packers, Pats, and Falcons  
PatersonPlank : 2/21/2012 12:41 pm : link
all high scoring offenses, to basically 12.3 pts per game. That is every bit as good. Do I see a significant difference between holding the 07 Pats to 14 versus the 11 Pats to 17, no I really don't. In fact we shut them down this year after their first drive in the 3rd quarter, with Spags the defense let them go down the field and almost blow the game with 2 minutes to go. So in fact I can say that the Giants defense this year was better than the 2007 defense in the clutch.

Anyone picking on Fewell right now is nitpicking, and anyone saying Spags was better because of facts, is stretching.
PP  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/21/2012 12:43 pm : link
Comparing the Pats offense from 07 to the Pats offense of 2011 is a joke. Do you need to be reminded of all the records the 2007 Pats offense broke? Please.
You have more confidence in Spags  
pjcas18 : 2/21/2012 12:45 pm : link
because spags defense did not go through a 14-week period of ineptitude anywhere close to what Fewell's led defense did.

Spags team started 0 - 2 and historically awful and was buoyed by a goal line stand week 3.

For whatever reason Fewell's defense didn't get healthy and/or buy into his system until a 97-play strong showing against the Jets.

so, the end results were similar, both defenses standing up to strong offensive opponents, but Fewell's was bad longer during the regular season.

if not for that you'd probably be as confident in Fewell
So what about Week 17 when that same Pats team dumped 38 on us?  
arcarsenal : 2/21/2012 12:45 pm : link
That one doesn't count?
We were talking about playoff runs  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/21/2012 12:47 pm : link
I can mention plenty of games from the regular season, as well.
That week 17 game  
Sneakers O'toole : 2/21/2012 12:48 pm : link
the Giants intentionally went with a pretty vanilla game plan on defense
And again it was the 2007 Pats offense  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/21/2012 12:49 pm : link
Probably the best offense of all time. Not much shame in that.
2007 turned Spags into a legend  
PEEJ : 2/21/2012 12:50 pm : link
Why didn't 2011 do the same for Fewell?

Seems to me that Fewell got dealt a tough hand with the injury situation. He tried to do what any competent DC would do. He tried to scheme around the weakness and disguise them. Unfortunately, this confused the Giants more than the opposition. As the D got healthier , he was able to rely less on the disguises.
I too feel that Spags was the better if your comparing the 2  
Geeman : 2/21/2012 12:50 pm : link
But obviously Fewell is good enough and you can win a SB with him as the DC. Spags to me had the better blitz packages and more aggressive up front.
I am no expert but  
djstat : 2/21/2012 12:51 pm : link
I coached high school football for 10 years and was a defensive coordinator for 8 of them. My best season was a year we went 9-1 and only allowed a total of 61 points in 10 games. (6.1 PPG). The difference with Spags and Fewell is a massive difference in philosiphy. A lot of times, good coaches base their defense on their personell. In the case of the Giants, they are loaded up front with great pass rushers.

The LB is weak at best, and only Boley is a true blitzer. There is a lot of skill with blitzing such as timing and stunts that involve speed and quickness. Not all LB are good blitzers.

Fewell has designed a scheme based on his personell. Strong in the front four. Thus the scheme revolves around the pressure coming from up front. We had injuries and at times were down Osi and Tuck. Thus Kiwi and JPP and Tolofson played more downs then desired.

Fewell simply stayed within the scheme based on his personell and what they do. The LB's here could barely stop the run. Adding in a sophisticated blitz scheme made no sense because the LBs were weak and raw this year.

In the future that can change as players grow.

What should make you feel good is in the playoffs the Giants defense held Atlanta to 2 points, GB to 20, SF to 14 and NE to 17. That is great defense.

If you think it was luck that Rodgers had a bad game then that is just because you want to believe Spags is better. Rodgers played like crap because the defense had a great game plan and executed.

BTW, I love Spags as a D-Coord. But look at what his genius did in St. Louis?
Either way...  
arcarsenal : 2/21/2012 12:52 pm : link
I'm not really sure what more anyone could have expected from this defense down the stretch this year. We pitched a shutout in the WC round, held the best offense in the league to 20 points in their building (could have been even less if not for the BS calls), and then held Tom Brady to 17 in the Super Bowl.

Like I said, Spags did a great job here. I think people get carried away, though. Ultimately, he didn't accomplish anything more than Fewell has.
And if it seems like I'm  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/21/2012 12:56 pm : link
trying to take away from what Fewell accomplished, I'm not. He deserves alot of credit.

But if I had to answer which run I thought was more impressive by the defense, it's 2007. I think people forget just how great the 2007 Pats offense was. Brady broke the recrod for TD passes and him and Moss were unstoppable, except for SB 42, of course. Spags gets alot of credit for that. I don't know if the 2011 Giants defense holds the 2007 Pats offense to 14. I don't think I see that happening.
My thinking was that in the first 3/4 of the season  
PeterS : 2/21/2012 1:00 pm : link
he defense was simply too complicated and guys were missing too many assignments. If in fact, things were simplified, the final 1/4 of the season and of course the playoffs showed a return of a dominating style of defense.
Fewell came through when it mattered most.  
Simms11 : 2/21/2012 1:01 pm : link
This season was bad statistically, with the exception of the playoffs, primarily because of injuries and rookies starting at critical positions on D.

I think he is a decent coordinator and has the luxury of relying on his front 4 to generate pressure. Thats what makes his D tick and he does have a tendency to stick with that sometimes too long, even if their not getting there, but his 3-safety package has proven to be effective in this pass-happy league now.

I think you'll also see vast improvement in the back 7 on D next year, as well. Many rookies in their second year; ready to add to this D.

Guy just won a freakin Super Bowl and the D played a major role. I, for one, have plenty of confidence in him!
They did a tremendous job against the Pats in the 2007/8 SB.  
arcarsenal : 2/21/2012 1:01 pm : link
No doubt about it. But at the same time, the 2007 Pats scored 589 points... the 2011 Green Bay Packers scored 560. They really weren't as far apart as you may think. Was what we did to the Pats in the 2007/8 SB really that much more impressive than holding the 2011 Packers to just 20 in their building aided by some horrendous officiating? I'm not so sure it is.

Add that to the fact that the Falcons offense didn't even score a point on us and Brady only got 17... I don't know. This run was pretty damn impressive.
djstat  
Danny Kanell : 2/21/2012 1:01 pm : link
My biggest issue w/ Fewell is when the rush wasn't getting there, he didn't seem to have the ability to adjust. To dial something different up mid-game to throw the offense off rythem.

He really didnt have to in the playoffs b/c the pass rush was doing their job. For that approx 10 game stretch in the regular season when the pass rush was virtually non-existent, nothing changed, to the ire of many of us here.

What about the 2011 Packers?  
Go Terps : 2/21/2012 1:01 pm : link
They were the second highest scoring team of all time and playing in their building. Of the 20 points they scored 14 were gifted by the refs.

I agree that we leaned heavily on the pass rushers this year. We did the same thing in 2007 down the stretch. Anyone doubting that needs to go back and watch the 2nd half of the Cowboy game. That pass rush was approaching '85 Bears levels of disruption.

Blitzing these top QBs these days is a recipe for disaster. Go back to two plays in our game in Dallas:

- 3rd and 5, Cowboys have 7 on the line, rush 6 (with a safety blitzing and Brooking backpedaling to fill his zone)...

Manningham All Alone, Eli Doesn't Miss

- 3rd and 5, Giants have 6 on the line, tip their hand pre-snap, rush 7...

Austin All Alone, Romo Ain't Eli

Good OCs identify these blitzes during the week, and they make sure their offensive players are able to spot them pre-snap and adjust accordingly.

Down the stretch the Giants had better players on defense than the opponents did on offense, and he was able to check his ego enough to let the superior talent dictate and not do anything nutty. I'll take that guy over the Rex Ryans and Dom Capers of the world every time.
There were a boatload of plays  
Go Terps : 2/21/2012 1:03 pm : link
when Rodgers and Smith had a ton of time to throw the ball and ended up checking down (or in Smith's case, missing someone entirely).

Getting Rodgers (or Brees) to check down to a 5 yard play is a victory for the defense.
.  
Danny Kanell : 2/21/2012 1:03 pm : link
And as I stated above, for the Giants, I wouldn't trade Fewell for Spags at this point. We saw how Fewell's defense works when our front 4 is healthy.
There are no facts here, just a few forcing their opinon  
PatersonPlank : 2/21/2012 1:05 pm : link
2007 Pats offense - 411 yds/ game, 36 pts/game
2011 Pats offense - 428 yds/game, 32 pts/game

So this year they averaged slightly more yards but slightly less points. To me this sounds about the same. In addition I can point out:

- the offenses we played in 2011 (Pats, Pack, Atl, even SF) were as good as the the offenses in 2007 playoff run overall
- the GB game in 2012 was played in good weather, the 2007 team was greatly aided by subzero temperatures
- the defense in the 2012 SB didn't let the Pats score after early in the 3rd quarter. Spags almost blew the game with a TD drive ending with 2 minutes to go.

The facts are this D was every bit as good as Spags, I don't see why anyone has an issue saying that. I could agree they are both about even. I also see nothing that says Spags is better based on track record (with and before the Giants). Again I could agree with they are both very good.
The Packers were great this year  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/21/2012 1:06 pm : link
but yeah, that 2007 Pat offense was the most ridiculous offense I have ever seen week in and week out. I would take them and not blink twice.
PP  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/21/2012 1:08 pm : link
I was talking about the two Pats offenses. The 2007 Pats offense is one of the best, if not the best of all time. The 2011 Pats offense was nowhere near as good as the 2007 Pats offense. They were a juggernaut in 2007. They were 18-0. Undefeated.

There is a reason why many people thought the Giants would win the SB this year and it was our offense, not out defense.
when will amateur hour(s), days, months, end on BBI.?  
slefrak : 2/21/2012 1:09 pm : link
When? Please.
And by pople thinking we would win the SB  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/21/2012 1:09 pm : link
I mean once we won the NFC Championship. Not since Week 1 or anything like that.
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