Just said that Victor Cruz is being offered $21 million Guaranteed but wants more. I was wondering if that had been stated before or mentioned. Never heard of an exact number that we were offering till now.
that is not the point...
the point it there is NOTHING wrong with having cruz this year for 2mio and playing his ass off for his money along with nicks doing the same. If randle can take over for nicks like everyone claims then that will show... and if not... it will also...
the idea that you need to meet the players demands who is a RFA is just stupid. he can take financial security for life, or play another year and get paid more but risk injury.
assuming no serious injury or similar change in his prospects, he gets $9.5M/year, at the very least.
The idea that his market value would be in the $7-8M range is laughable. The $8M range is filled with guys like Pierre Garcon, Santonio Holmes, and Sidney Rice. DeSean freaking Jackson signed for 5 years and $47M. Greg Jennings has a lot more age and injury concerns, and his is in a similar range as DeSean's. Cruz is more valuable than any of those guys.
Of course, Victor can be expected to take some sort of discount to avoid the tender salary for 2013. But I doubt that approaches $7M/season-- a 26% reduction from the low end of his likely open market value.
the unlikely happens and another team puts in a late minute bid.
Cruz either signs the deal on the table as an RFA or he plays under the tender and re-negotiates in the fall from a stronger position. Either way, the Giants know that his value (again, barring a late bid from another team) is $2.83m this year and if they choose to use it, about $11m under the franchise tag next year. They aren't going to negotiate against themselves.
I do think that there can be, as BB'56 suggested, some "face saving" money added to the current offer on the table if it brings Cruz in, but it's not going to be substantially more than what the team is already offering. They can't blow up the cap with Nicks, JPP, LinJo coming down the pike next year.
If the offer really is 5 years 35 million...with 21 million guaranteed...what is the effect on the cap...if we go with same offer and increase the guaranteed amount to 27 million...and add performance incentives?
that they have a plan in place that if they had to go "over budget" to get Cruz done that they would have restructures and or cuts that they could make
It is possible that they could restructure someone if a team were to come in with a large 11th hour offer, but do you honestly believe that Reese will blink in the face of a huge contract on the table? I think the front office has a plan and it's either their way or the highway.
mid sesason 1 game, his play went downhill.
the first part of season he was excellent, 2nd half he was on roller skates.
this is a big year for him. if we see the first half of the year guy and more, he would warrant $ more then keeping both WR imo.
He has been a great player for the Giants. I graduated college with him as well. The fact of the matter is that he is a slot receiver. The market has been set for slot receivers with Amendola and Welker at 6 million per year. The giants are offering 7 and he is balking at that?
He has put up big numbers but in this system the slot receiver does that. See Steve Smith. Where is he now? Eli Manning makes his receivers better than they are. Period. Cruz will play for the tender this year then get a monster contract from Jacksonville and he will fall off the face of the earth.
what negotiations are all about. Who knows WHEN his will get done, but it most certainly will. We as humans love neat little packages tied up with string(these are a few of my....), so that we can "worry" about the next thing consuming us(i.e. Nicks, Joseph, then of course JPP)..
Well said. It is what I keep repeating: Without an offer from another team, Cruz' value to the Giants this year is about $7m per year. Next year, with the possible franchise tag, Cruz' value increases that much more. It's a game of chicken and right now Victor is playing for more money and who in the world can blame him?? I surely don't!
Trade him and get a draft pick. Ill go with Nicks and Randle and use the pick on the OL unless there is a rule you can't trade someone after they sign their tender because he will have to sign it.
I'd rate Victor Cruz as no lower than the third most important Giant entering 2013.
Eli, Nicks, Cruz. This is, by miles, the strongest area on the team and the one most likely to take it to another title. If it means letting JPP walk when it's his time, I think those three guys absolutely must be kept together...all the moreso now with Randle's emergence.
bceagle said it above...this is a Cruz and Nicks game. If we're making the other coach let us go to Randle, that is a matchup we are likely to win.
Everything revolves around Eli on this team. Everything.
not an arbitration. There is none of the nastiness that arbitration produces. Both sides take the emotion out of it and work it out. I believe they are close
You make a strong point but I think you also have to take into consideration the system that the Giants have used on the offensive side of the ball, particularly with personnel decisions. Talented guys have come and gone here probably alot more than on other teams. Why? Because the Giants place a monetary value on their guys which they see as fair and they do not exceed that number in negotiations. Cruz has certainly proven to be a guy you make your BEST offer to. But what reason do the Giants have to make any exception for Cruz? There is no arguing that this offense has sustained many losses in the past, and largely in part to Eli, the offense has remained highly productive.
I do not feel comfortable getting into a bidding war with Victor Cruz. Not with guys like Nicks and JPP coming up next year. I'm pretty sure the Giants feel the same way and I'm glad about that.
Best case scenario, I think they all get paid reasonable deals and remain in Blue.
We're not trying to just get by on offense because of Eli...we're trying to get better. We're not doing that if Cruz walks...that hurts everyone on offense.
If it comes down to JPP or Cruz, I keep Cruz. He'll cost less and is more important to the team because his performance directly impacts the performance of our best player.
Spreading our resources out is not the way to a title.
How do we know if the Giants go above the number they feel a player is worth if they never give out the number? Because Reese says so? It sounds nice, but is it factual? I don't know
and neither do you
he let Steve Smith go, would have let Bradshaw go last summer had somebody offered AB more. JR has a track record. I believe he has a number and in that way keeps from being to deep into the cap.
was willing to pay. Kevin Boss wasn't injured at the time. Susceptible to concussions yes.
I believe he has an amount that is a cut off point for every player, injured, healthy, RFA, UFA whatever. The number we see fom Cruz and that was hinted at by Mara and Tisch may not be that number yet, but probably not too far away.
I don't understand how you can say you would rather lose JPP than Cruz
We have won two Superbowls in 5 years with two entirely different sets of receivers. JPP is an absolute monster who can change a game himself.
Look at what receivers have done after leaving the Giants and Eli Manning. It is not even close to the production they put up on this team.
Cruz is a great talent but lets not forget who is throwing him the football. There is no reason to get into a bidding war and giving him a monster contract. Give Nicks the offer and it is next man up.
Eli is certainly the way to another championship, but I put the pass rush right there as reason #1A.
In 2011 JPP put up a defensive season we hadnt seen since Strahan in 2001. I'm not too worried about alittle bit of an off year this year.
Eli, Nicks, Cruz and JPP are the 4 best players on this team and its foundation. If one of those guys wants to take himself out of the equation b/c of his contract demands, fine, but I don't think the Giants can or will pay one guy so much that it jeopardizes their chances to retain the others.
They are offering fair money. Its not their fault other teams are prudent and throw crazy money out there. If they offer a very fair deal and Cruz plays hardball. He's gotta go kick rocks. The team won championships before him and will after he is gone.
more then locking up 20m in 2 WR.
give us a RT and ill show u a consistent offense instead of boom bust.
WR are the most important when u cant get a first down on 3rd and 1.
I'm arguing that we dont know if the Giants go above the number they place on a player. I got to believe it is no where near a cut off point, that would be boxing themselves in
I completely agree. If Cruz wants to hit the open market and play with Blaine Gabbert or John Skelton making 13 million dollars a year he can.
We have Nicks, JPP and also Eli Manning on the horizon which people seem to be forgetting. Tony Romo just got 55 million guaranteed. I cannot even imagine what Eli will command in his next deal.
We cannot be hamstrung cap wise by Victor Cruz. If he is not here the next slot receiver will catch 85 passes in this system.
I would disagree. This team has been about the QB and DL since 2007. We won in 2011 in large part because Cruz came from nowhere. He was almost cut. Whether by design or by accident, the 2011 Giants won the title on the back of a strong passing game. That's indisputable.
What's your plan if/when he walks? Wait for the next Cruz to fall out of the sky? If he's demanding big money it's because he's rare. That means replacing him is going to be very difficult...and all the while Eli years will be ticking by.
I'm not looking to get rid of JPP...there are only bad choices here. But if it's one or the other, the defense sucked with JPP on it in 2011 and 2012. It can continue to suck without him.
The Giants are realistically never going to have a consistent offense
You can give them a stud RT, Calvin Johnson, whatever and it's not going to likely change. Based on almost a decade of evidence, there's almost certainly always going to be those 3 or so games a year where the passing game specifically totally shits the bed and they're probably not likely ever going to be a team that's going to win shoot-outs consistently even outside those games either. They're not going to be that Packers or Patriots offense that auto-locks the team into 10+ wins and a playoff spot -- it's just not likely in them, for whatever reason (Eli, Gilbride, the system... it doesn't matter which, as none of it is going to change).
That's why it's hard to prioritize keeping Cruz and Nicks over JPP, even if, in an abstract way, it makes sense to focus on your strengths first. The Giants need their defense to at least be representable or they're not going anywhere beyond mediocrity and it's hard to be representable when you let your only "stud" defender walk.
No one is disputing that the passing game is why we won it all in 2011
But to say it is mainly because of Cruz is just not true. He is a cog in the Giants system that is generated by Eli Manning.
Just wait until Martellus Bennett is cut next year after failing to put up numbers even close to what he did last year. Eli made him a rich man (for now).
The last minute touchdown by Cruz against the Skins this year was a great moment. One in which Eli Manning took a shot while throwing a perfect strike directly into Cruz's lap
Draft a WR who would be a good fit for our system. We did it with Smith, and our scouts brought Cruz in. If there is anything good about our system, it's the WR position both players play, which is the slot and Z.
At his best Smith wasn't in the same world as Cruz,
If we draft a guy that fits our system we then have to wait for him to acclimate to the game just like we would with any other rookie.
We can keep asking Eli to carry guys and make them better than they are, or we can provide him with the best possible talent and let them all make each other better.
he is a fcking RFA!!!! stop being drama queens. its a win win for the giants. he signs a deal good for both or he plays another year hard and becomes a UFA where we must decide between a group of talented free agents on whom to keep.
investing 20m in WRs probably wont lead the giants very far unless they get lucky on some OL and DT in the near future
I agree. Two players were totally different, and yet were pro bowl players who were productive. I can go back to a move the chains type player again. I don't need another Cruz. I am not spoiled by his success than a Steve Smith simply won't do anymore.
In fact, the system is the same, and we draft or develop a WR to fit the slot and someone who can pay Z. When Smith left, I thought it would be hard to find someone who can master his position. We found Cruz who flashed, and then struggled, which led us to bring in Stokley. He got hurt, Cruz stepped in, and the rest was single season yards history.
I'd like to keep Cruz, but if he leaves, I am not worried. If anything shit usually works it self out. Tiki left, and we were fine. Strahan left and we were fine, Smith left, and we were fine. If Cruz leaves, I would be sad, but I'll get over it with the prospect of trying to fill the void again.
They'll come to a compromise. Condon is far from a sleazebucket, hard negotiator or not..
If we give in to an increased guarantee, then they'll give in to an additional year or two. Probably something along those lines
the point it there is NOTHING wrong with having cruz this year for 2mio and playing his ass off for his money along with nicks doing the same. If randle can take over for nicks like everyone claims then that will show... and if not... it will also...
the idea that you need to meet the players demands who is a RFA is just stupid. he can take financial security for life, or play another year and get paid more but risk injury.
The idea that his market value would be in the $7-8M range is laughable. The $8M range is filled with guys like Pierre Garcon, Santonio Holmes, and Sidney Rice. DeSean freaking Jackson signed for 5 years and $47M. Greg Jennings has a lot more age and injury concerns, and his is in a similar range as DeSean's. Cruz is more valuable than any of those guys.
Of course, Victor can be expected to take some sort of discount to avoid the tender salary for 2013. But I doubt that approaches $7M/season-- a 26% reduction from the low end of his likely open market value.
Cruz either signs the deal on the table as an RFA or he plays under the tender and re-negotiates in the fall from a stronger position. Either way, the Giants know that his value (again, barring a late bid from another team) is $2.83m this year and if they choose to use it, about $11m under the franchise tag next year. They aren't going to negotiate against themselves.
the first part of season he was excellent, 2nd half he was on roller skates.
this is a big year for him. if we see the first half of the year guy and more, he would warrant $ more then keeping both WR imo.
He has put up big numbers but in this system the slot receiver does that. See Steve Smith. Where is he now? Eli Manning makes his receivers better than they are. Period. Cruz will play for the tender this year then get a monster contract from Jacksonville and he will fall off the face of the earth.
They are both doing this right..
Eli, Nicks, Cruz. This is, by miles, the strongest area on the team and the one most likely to take it to another title. If it means letting JPP walk when it's his time, I think those three guys absolutely must be kept together...all the moreso now with Randle's emergence.
bceagle said it above...this is a Cruz and Nicks game. If we're making the other coach let us go to Randle, that is a matchup we are likely to win.
Everything revolves around Eli on this team. Everything.
I do not feel comfortable getting into a bidding war with Victor Cruz. Not with guys like Nicks and JPP coming up next year. I'm pretty sure the Giants feel the same way and I'm glad about that.
Best case scenario, I think they all get paid reasonable deals and remain in Blue.
If it comes down to JPP or Cruz, I keep Cruz. He'll cost less and is more important to the team because his performance directly impacts the performance of our best player.
Spreading our resources out is not the way to a title.
and neither do you
I believe he has an amount that is a cut off point for every player, injured, healthy, RFA, UFA whatever. The number we see fom Cruz and that was hinted at by Mara and Tisch may not be that number yet, but probably not too far away.
Look at what receivers have done after leaving the Giants and Eli Manning. It is not even close to the production they put up on this team.
Cruz is a great talent but lets not forget who is throwing him the football. There is no reason to get into a bidding war and giving him a monster contract. Give Nicks the offer and it is next man up.
In 2011 JPP put up a defensive season we hadnt seen since Strahan in 2001. I'm not too worried about alittle bit of an off year this year.
Eli, Nicks, Cruz and JPP are the 4 best players on this team and its foundation. If one of those guys wants to take himself out of the equation b/c of his contract demands, fine, but I don't think the Giants can or will pay one guy so much that it jeopardizes their chances to retain the others.
give us a RT and ill show u a consistent offense instead of boom bust.
WR are the most important when u cant get a first down on 3rd and 1.
Except they've won two titles since '08 doing it that way..
We have Nicks, JPP and also Eli Manning on the horizon which people seem to be forgetting. Tony Romo just got 55 million guaranteed. I cannot even imagine what Eli will command in his next deal.
We cannot be hamstrung cap wise by Victor Cruz. If he is not here the next slot receiver will catch 85 passes in this system.
I'm not looking to get rid of JPP...there are only bad choices here. But if it's one or the other, the defense sucked with JPP on it in 2011 and 2012. It can continue to suck without him.
You can give them a stud RT, Calvin Johnson, whatever and it's not going to likely change. Based on almost a decade of evidence, there's almost certainly always going to be those 3 or so games a year where the passing game specifically totally shits the bed and they're probably not likely ever going to be a team that's going to win shoot-outs consistently even outside those games either. They're not going to be that Packers or Patriots offense that auto-locks the team into 10+ wins and a playoff spot -- it's just not likely in them, for whatever reason (Eli, Gilbride, the system... it doesn't matter which, as none of it is going to change).
That's why it's hard to prioritize keeping Cruz and Nicks over JPP, even if, in an abstract way, it makes sense to focus on your strengths first. The Giants need their defense to at least be representable or they're not going anywhere beyond mediocrity and it's hard to be representable when you let your only "stud" defender walk.
Just wait until Martellus Bennett is cut next year after failing to put up numbers even close to what he did last year. Eli made him a rich man (for now).
The last minute touchdown by Cruz against the Skins this year was a great moment. One in which Eli Manning took a shot while throwing a perfect strike directly into Cruz's lap
If we draft a guy that fits our system we then have to wait for him to acclimate to the game just like we would with any other rookie.
We can keep asking Eli to carry guys and make them better than they are, or we can provide him with the best possible talent and let them all make each other better.
investing 20m in WRs probably wont lead the giants very far unless they get lucky on some OL and DT in the near future
In fact, the system is the same, and we draft or develop a WR to fit the slot and someone who can pay Z. When Smith left, I thought it would be hard to find someone who can master his position. We found Cruz who flashed, and then struggled, which led us to bring in Stokley. He got hurt, Cruz stepped in, and the rest was single season yards history.
I'd like to keep Cruz, but if he leaves, I am not worried. If anything shit usually works it self out. Tiki left, and we were fine. Strahan left and we were fine, Smith left, and we were fine. If Cruz leaves, I would be sad, but I'll get over it with the prospect of trying to fill the void again.