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Bob Papa on Cruz

bigfrank612 : 4/2/2013 9:23 am
Just said that Victor Cruz is being offered $21 million Guaranteed but wants more. I was wondering if that had been stated before or mentioned. Never heard of an exact number that we were offering till now.
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I also just want to throw out there...  
chrispisano66 : 4/2/2013 2:37 pm : link
b/c I think this gets lost with the Cruz 99 yarder against the Jets and b/c of his somewhat disappointing season last year but, in my opinion, JPP was the 2nd biggest reason (after Eli Manning) this team won it all in 2011.

He was directly responsible for about 8 points (safety, turnover converted to FG, blocked FG) in the biggest game of that entire regular season. Nothing matters if the Giants don't win that game. After Eli, JPP is the man responsible.
If he leaves the Giants will replace him  
bELIeve10 : 4/2/2013 2:38 pm : link
How was Manningham's production in San Fran this year?

How did Burress do post Eli?

Kevin Boss and Steve Smith sure had great careers after leaving the Giants.

We won games in 2010 with Derek Hagan as the leading receiver.

Eli Manning makes his receivers better and makes this team go. It is pretty evident the Giants will not be able to keep both Nicks and Cruz. So be it, Randle will do just fine.
Wow  
Headhunter : 4/2/2013 2:43 pm : link
Cruz is just another guy and I thought he was special. You can get another Jet training camp cut and replace him.
you've got to be kidding me  
Greg from LI : 4/2/2013 2:44 pm : link
Plaxico Burress "post-Eli" was 34 years old, freshly out of prison and hadn't played ball in three years. Kevin Boss was a modestly successful TE with or without Eli Manning. Steve Smith had a catastrophic knee injury.

Try again.
right  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2013 2:45 pm : link
because Kevin Boss and Victor Cruz have similar production.

Holy Shit.
believe10,  
Dave in Hoboken : 4/2/2013 2:46 pm : link
Cruz is just a tad different than guys like Boss and Smith. Also, while Plax was a GREAT Giant, you could see the warning signs in 2008 (before he shot himself), that he was starting to slow down alittle bit. Cruz is younger than Plax was during that year and had alot less injuries and miles on his legs. Cruz is 26/27 and just entering his prime. He still has his best years ahead of him.
I love Eli as much as any other fan out there  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2013 2:46 pm : link
but what the fuck, give credit where its due sometimes.
Terps  
speedywheels : 4/2/2013 2:52 pm : link
You are contradicting yourself - you say that QB and DL are vital, yet you aren't willing to spread resources amongst the two groups (ie, you said you would invest in Cruz over JPP). The passing attack was obviously very important to the title run, but the defense was pretty good at times as well. Without the defense (specifically JPP), they probably don't even make the playoffs - or did you forget JPP's performance against Dallas? He was responsible for what, 8 points that day? Not to mention that terrific stop on the dump pass which would have gone for a ton of yards otherwise.

Basically, you want to invest some 25-30% of the cap into three guys (Eli, Nicks and Cruz). If you do that, they will lose a ton of 41-35 type games

We know you hate the cap, but in this day and age you HAVE to spread resources around both sides of the ball. It is impossible to load on either one side of the ball or even one unit, without exposing the other units.





Oops  
speedywheels : 4/2/2013 2:56 pm : link
Also wanted to mention the fact that if I have to make a choice between Cruz and JPP, I'm choosing the latter

Don't get me wrong, I love Cruz and think he's great, but I can't help but wonder how much of his greatness is made by Eli than the other way around? I trust Eli to make the most out of his WR's, and if Cruz has to leave, then I believe him to make the most out of Randle (or whoever) to close the gap between what was lost in Cruz.
If I knew how to post gif's  
Headhunter : 4/2/2013 2:57 pm : link
I would of posted Cruz and the DB's he faked out of their shoes
I agree speedywheels if its the 2011 JPP.  
Victor in CT : 4/2/2013 2:58 pm : link
Not so sure about the 2012 JPP......
HH,  
Big Blue '56 : 4/2/2013 2:59 pm : link
you mean would have?

;)
I just hope they get the Cruz deal done already  
speedywheels : 4/2/2013 3:00 pm : link
and then move on to the next deal (Nicks, JPP, or whoever)
I love Cruz as much as the next guy.  
Klaatu : 4/2/2013 3:01 pm : link
And I want him to stay a Giant for the rest of his career. I don't blame him for trying to get as much money as possible. In his position, I'd do the same thing.

But at some point, the team has to draw the line on his contract. As Eric said, there are 52 other guys that have to get paid, too.

I hope that he and the Giants can reach an agreement that's mutually beneficial to both parties, but if they can't, well, that's life in today's NFL.
BB'56  
Headhunter : 4/2/2013 3:02 pm : link
yes if I knew proper English :)
Yes, but passing offense is the most consistent unit year-to-year  
Kyle : 4/2/2013 3:02 pm : link
Quote:
We know you hate the cap, but in this day and age you HAVE to spread resources around both sides of the ball. It is impossible to load on either one side of the ball or even one unit, without exposing the other units.


So if a team makes a decision to disproportionately invest in one area, it should probably be the passing offense.
speedy  
Go Terps : 4/2/2013 3:03 pm : link
The other unit was already exposed. I recognize JPP's quality, and his 2011 season was excellent. But the defense in 2011 was abysmal despite his performance...25th in points allowed, 27th in yards. JPP's performance in Dallas was superb, I wouldn't try to take that away from him...but you point to one game where he contributed points in a win, and I can point to three games the Giants lost that year where they scored 24 or more points. So it goes both ways.

We have a strong passing game now. It's the backbone of the team. Weaken that to strengthen a weak area and IMO you end up with an overall weaker team.

I don't understand why..  
chrispisano66 : 4/2/2013 3:05 pm : link
it has to be taken as a criticism of Cruz to say the Giants shouldnt throw whatever money at him he wants. That is very irresponsible, and thankfully we pretty much already know that isnt happening because the Giants get it.

In a perfect world there would be no salary cap and the Giants wouldnt have to walk this tight rope, but that's not reality.

As great as he is, I'm not sure anyone can come up with evidence that Cruz is more important to this team's success than Nicks or JPP. I'm not sure then, why the Giants would financially prioritize him as such.
I believe  
Headhunter : 4/2/2013 3:06 pm : link
that Cruz, JPP & Nicks will all be signed. I believe they worked out how to get it done a year ago. They don't deal with what's in front of them, they short term AND long term plan.
And I'll also add that if we're comparing  
Go Terps : 4/2/2013 3:06 pm : link
JPP and Cruz it's not a straight comparison. JPP's contract is going to make Cruz's look like peanuts. Mario Williams got $50 million guaranteed...about what we'd expect for Nicks and Cruz COMBINED.
I  
CapeGman : 4/2/2013 3:06 pm : link
think pyaing 7 million a year for Cruz is actually too much. The guy is primarily a slot reciever on a team with a HOF QB. Eli can take another good slot guy and make Cruz very replaceable. When Nicks was out Cruz didn't stand nearly as well on his own.
Save the money for Nicks,develop Randle and groom another slot guy for next year.
The new TE makes a Cruz departure even less of a problem.
you're right chris.  
Victor in CT : 4/2/2013 3:08 pm : link
.
chris  
Go Terps : 4/2/2013 3:11 pm : link
It's not just whether Cruz is more important...it's whether JPP is twice as important, because that's what he's going to cost.
I'm not saying it doesn't go both ways  
speedywheels : 4/2/2013 3:13 pm : link
They don't make the playoffs in '11 without JPP. And hopefully JPP bounces back this year to show why he is so indepensible.

I agree that the passing game is the backbone. But you invest the dollars that will be required for ELi, Nicks and Cruz, the defense will suck even harder than the '11 team. Look at the Lions - terffic passing game, but the rest of the team blows chunks.

Nevermind the defense - what about the OL? What good will having an excellent passing game if Eli is on his back the entire game? You devote that much money to the Big Three, there will be less $$ for the OL as well.

Again, I trust Eli - I'd hate to see Cruz go, but I trust him to make Randle the best he can be. He might not be ever Cruz, but he can help offset the loss and still have that unit as a strength...
speedy  
Go Terps : 4/2/2013 3:15 pm : link
You face the same problem, but much worse, if you let Cruz walk and sign JPP.
terps  
hitdog42 : 4/2/2013 3:17 pm : link
seeing that he is an RFA... what is the deal you want to offer cruz right now?
Terps..  
chrispisano66 : 4/2/2013 3:18 pm : link
JPP has alot to prove this year before he approaches any big-time contract with the Giants or anyone else. The point still remains though, that the Giants can't take themselves out of the picture in terms of being able to retain him.

Again, I'm not that worried. I believe the Giants have this all worked out, know their numbers for each guy and have back-up plans in place for injury, over/under performance.

I believe Cruz, Nicks and JPP will be here long term.
hitdog  
Go Terps : 4/2/2013 3:19 pm : link
I don't know what he's asking. And I have no complaint with the way the Giants are handling it. Apparently right now there is no reason to press the matter any more than they have. When that time comes, if he's looking for $10 million/year, I give it to him.
Maybe  
speedywheels : 4/2/2013 3:19 pm : link
But JPP can have a ripple effect on the entire defense. If 2011 JPP returns, then he makes the secondary better because they don't have to cover as long, and the LB's better because more runs are stopped at the line, and since he would have to be double teamed there would be opporutunties for the other DL to look better as well.

Is that worth twice as much as Cruz? I dunno, I'm not a capologist...
I'm not sure that the Giants will be able to keep Cruz.  
gunntom5 : 4/2/2013 3:20 pm : link
Regardless, his departure will hurt the team. He has been very productive over two seasons. He will not be easily replaced. As with everything with Giant fans, this will be obvious after he is gone.

He will be a Giant in 2013, and I am excited about that.
The defense was better with 2012 JPP  
Go Terps : 4/2/2013 3:21 pm : link
That ripple effect didn't seem to be there when his play regressed.
Great discussion.  
bceagle05 : 4/2/2013 3:21 pm : link
If the Giants surmise that they can't keep all three, I agree that JPP has to be the one who goes. He'd get roughly the equivalent of a franchise QB, which no other position is worth to a team, no matter how great the player. Look at the Jets with Revis right now. How much better shape would they be in if they had dumped Revis when he bitched about his contract the first time around? They would've gotten multiple first round picks, and may have been in position to make a play for one of the great QBs in last year's draft. Or could've spread the Revis money around to fortify other areas. Now they're praying for one first rounder for him.
I hate to say it,  
Go Terps : 4/2/2013 3:30 pm : link
but the smart move will be trading JPP after another year or two (he's RFA in 2015, right?). He does well and he'll get us a huge haul, as Revis would have for the Jets prior to his injury.
Could They Sign Cruz  
thevett : 4/2/2013 3:36 pm : link
and trade him right away ??
It would take balls  
bceagle05 : 4/2/2013 3:38 pm : link
the size of planet Earth for Reese to do it, but I would completely understand if he did.
re  
Rob_MTL : 4/2/2013 3:38 pm : link
Contrary to popular belief Giants fans are not the smartest.

You guys dont know the number of years or the total amount.
Trading JPP, I mean.  
bceagle05 : 4/2/2013 3:38 pm : link
Not sure what the rules are pertaining to Cruz.
This thread  
gmen4ever : 4/2/2013 3:44 pm : link
has made me sicker than I currently am...my chest is tighter than it was before I started reading this information...sigh...
I think lumping JPP  
chrispisano66 : 4/2/2013 3:44 pm : link
in with the same guaranteed money Williams got is also assuming alot at this point. Like I said earlier, JPP needs another season like 2011 to even be able to ask for that kind of money. Besides, we havent yet heard JPP talk about his own free agency. How do we know the Giants can't lock him up at a reasonable price the way they did with Tuck?
re  
Rob_MTL : 4/2/2013 3:46 pm : link
Does anyone know what the 2014 cap space is?

JPP's 2nd season blew away anything Mario Williams has ever done  
Go Terps : 4/2/2013 3:46 pm : link
Unless something goes very wrong I can't see him not commanding that type of cash.
Greg on LI  
bELIeve10 : 4/2/2013 3:47 pm : link
You don't have to be an @sshole.. I am not saying Kevin Boss or Steve Smith or Burress out of prison were comparable to Victor Cruz. However the proof is in the pudding. Steve Smith caught 107 passes in one year in this system. When Victor Cruz inevitably signs a 75 million dollar contract with some shit hole team, his production will not even be remotely close to what it is in this system with this Quarterback.

Victor Cruz is not even the best receiver on this team. My point is that Eli and this system inflate the numbers of the receivers, especially in the slot.

I would not be happy with the Giants giving Victor Cruz a monster deal at the expense of this team losing other very valuable players.
re  
Rob_MTL : 4/2/2013 3:50 pm : link
Victor Cruz is not a slot receiver.
Cruz  
BSIMatt : 4/2/2013 3:59 pm : link
May not be "just" a slot receiver...but 7 out 10 pass patterns he runs originate from the slot. Call him whatever you like..but he plays in the slot quite a bit, in fact for the Giants he pretty much owns that role in 3+ wr sets.
re  
Rob_MTL : 4/2/2013 4:00 pm : link
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/single-season-receiving.htVictor is the best receiver on the team. That is a fact.
link - ( New Window )
re  
Rob_MTL : 4/2/2013 4:03 pm : link
In a 2 wr formation the slot receiver is on the bench.

VC is on the field.
So you are going to tell me  
bELIeve10 : 4/2/2013 4:11 pm : link
that because Victor Cruz is on the field in a 2 WR set he is not a slot receiver? Wes Welker is on the field in 2 WR sets too. He is not a slot receiver?

For whoever posted Victor Cruz's single season record article, yes he had a ton of yards that year. That doesn't mean he is the best receiver on the field. Nicks frees him up into single coverage all the time.

That is like saying that Welker was the best receiver on the 2007 Patriots because he had over 100 catches and countless yards.

Go back and watch the 2011 post season and tell me again who the best receiver on the Giants is.
yes  
Rob_MTL : 4/2/2013 4:20 pm : link
Thats exactly what im saying.

You dont understand the differnce.
I do understand the difference  
bELIeve10 : 4/2/2013 4:34 pm : link
The guy makes his living playing in the slot. Just like Welker, just like Amendola, just like Steve Smith did for us.

Just because he lines up outside sometimes does not mean he is not a slot receiver. Slot receiver does not mean 3rd string. As a poster stated earlier, 7 out of 10 plays he is lined up in the slot.

You are the one that clearly does not understand the difference.
re  
Rob_MTL : 4/2/2013 4:39 pm : link
A slot receiver in the traditional sense is only comes on the field when in long situation.

VC is not a slot receiver, stop saying that.

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