I'm comparing Dave Thomas to Peterson. I think they're same level athletes. PP ran a 4.34. Sehorn a 4.37. Sehorn had an inch on Peterson. Peterson a few pounds on Sehorn.
I've seen Peterson get spun around pretty good by smaller, quicker type of WRs, though to be fair I can't recall how Sehorn did vs the smaller types of WRs.
by completely wrong i meant the area you used to argue for Sehorn is one where Peterson is clearly superior. His change of direction is off the charts, he is way more fluid. He showed up at the combine and ran a 3 cone in 6.58 at 220 lbs. That's crazy.
I should have said you had it backwards when arguing for Sehorn having a more fluid ease of movement or being more agile. Patrick Peterson could be an NFL WR, there is no question about it and they use him there in spurts. He is an elite punt returner (go youtube some of his TDs), even though his effectiveness there is down some because of how teams kick to him
watching him go out as a Giant unsuccessfully chasing TO around that day. Just didn't have it anymore. Would it have killed Johnnie Lynn to adjust and get someone more capable on the guy? Sheesh.
Was one of the best corners in the league and had not even hit his potential when he got injured. It was his choice of rehab that hurt his comeback. Instead of doing the Giants rehab he choose to use Todd Marinovich's father out in Cali.. THis is the same ass who raised his son from pre-school to be a QB. It was as close to raising him Sparta style as one could get
This guy had all kinds of odd weird exercises and stretches that he developed himself with no medical basis for them. He also had Sehorn raise his weight up 20 more lbs. Sehorn was never himself after that
Sehorn was a very good cover corner big tall fast and rangy
He won the Superstars competitions AFTER his injury.
He begged to be allowed to return kicks and was told NO many times prior to the injury.
During his first two years on the Giants, he played poorly and it looked like he might not make the team in year three.
He basically had the same athleticism as Michael Vick
He did not have the natural cover ability of, say, a Mark Collins or Revis. But his size and speed allowed him to match up with big receivers, such as Irvin and TO.
How "good" he was overall was always complicated by race since he was the only starting white CB in the league. His race led to hype both for him and against him. In retrospect, I would say if had not gotten injured he would have gone down as the best Giants DB of the last 40 years.
also, remember he was injured in only his third year as a starting CB
I remember after coming back from his ACL seeing him at camp--he was built like a large LB. 240 ish.
Regarding that KO return--I think it was a great idea. You don't play scared and returners don't seem to be injured at a higher rate than other positions and breaking a return can be game-changing. And you don't play the game scared--or scared to play certain players for fear of injury.
for Fassel because he took the team to the SB but I'll never forgive him for putting Jason on returns. Biggest single mistake by any Giants HC I can remember and is up there with Parcells starting Brunner over Simms.
at training camp Fassal would have the entire team run gassers at the end of practice . Sehorn was out in front by 10 or 15 yards from start to finish.
mentioned, I remember that when he first came to the Giants, the coaches looked at his size (and skin color) and assumed he should be a safety. They drafted Thomas Randolph as a speedy corner, also in the 2nd round of that draft, and later added Tito Wooten as a safety in the supplimental draft. Both Randolph and Wooten saw playing time before Sehorn, who finally started to get on the field in 1996.
Perhaps the only good thing about the 1996 Giants season, was we started to see that young defense start to gel, and Sehorn kept getting better and better. By 1997, he was looked at as kind of a freak for being not only a white corner, but one of the better corners in the game. He would make big plays (scored a TD on a pick in the clincher vs. the Redskins) and in the season finale at Dallas, he literally reduced Michael Irvin to tears as Irvin was so frustrated by how badly the Cowboys had fallen and Sehorn blanketed him that entire day. And he added another pick with a big run back against the Vikings in that God awful Wild Card loss.
When I think of Sehorn, you think of a guy who was on the cusp of being a super star, but that kickoff return against the Jets put an end to his rise. And then he became a BBI lightning rod with his workout decisions come 1999, as Fassel and many others felt he got too big/bulked up and never regained his quickness, even with the plays he made against Jacksonville (when you go back and see it, the Giants front protect line actually ran up at the Jags to engage them allowing Sehorn and easy path for a TD) and the Eagles pick 6.
He was extremely athletic and had a great, size speed ratio. He was tailor made to cover the wr emerging trend at the time - the Michel Irvin 6'2-6'4" 200 plus body type. Conversely, he struggled covering the smaller water bug type wrs - like a Cruz, or Santana Moss.
He was solid in run support however, Phillipi Sparks was better in ru support. Shut down corner? No. STC is an adjective too easily tossed around and few could live up to it - Deion and a handful of others.
I would consider him a B+ corner. Really high character guy.
I have noticed one instance of Revis getting away with calls.
I don't watch much Jets but a game was on a couple years back and Revis broke up a pass and the announcers started praising him. They show the replay and he's all over the receiver early and the announcers even make a comment that since he is Revis when plays are close the refs give him the benefit of the doubt because he's that good. That never sat well with me.
My favorite Giants player while I was in high school.
He wasn't the cover corner Deion Sanders was (nor Reavis), but his run support was at a whole different level. In today's game he would be incredibly valuable matched up against the large WRs with speed.
receivers that got away with it consistently was Michael Irvin. I loved it when Sehorn drove him to tears that day around 1997?
As others have said, Michael Vick like athletic skills. Coverage ability was outstanding those 2 short seasons but short of perfect. Had he not gotten injured, who knows.
The combine didn't always use electonic timing, so it's hard to say. There are a bunch of crazy hand-timed 40s. Green said the fastest he ever was clocked at was a hand-timed 4.14, Deion's claimed something like 4:16, Bo Jax ran a hand-timed 4.12 at the 1985 combine which is supposed to be the fastest ever recorded by any method at the comine. Like I said, from what I could gather Deion's 1989 combine time is still the record with electonic timing. Going off of 100 times for players that ran track in college and the Olympics, we see...
Green: 10.08
Deion: 10.21
Bo: 10.39
Willie Gault: 10.10....in 2011, Gault ran a 10.88 at the age of 51.
Herschel: 10.22
Bullet Bob Hayes: 10.06, which was the world record at the time
Ron Brown: 10.01
James Trapp: 10.03
James Jett vs. Qadry Ismail sprint from years ago was hilarious.. Ismail was a pretty fast guy and Jett made him look like a lineman. I can't find the link anymore though.
What does that even mean? Athletically Peterson has nothing on him.
It wasn't just the measurables. He was super smooth on the field. There are some guys who explode off the floor and he was one of them and he was a very big CB too.
His peak was very short but Sehorn was putting it all together. I agree he was no Revis because Revis dominated for a long time, avoided injuries, and really mastered the craft of playing CB (the contact he gets away with is a big part of it. It's a skill. Not a knock).
However, during Sehorn's peak he was one of the best defenders in the NFL. Saying he was nothing more than the 4th best player on the D is wrong. He was an impact defender and could eliminate the best WR on the other team.
Rod Woodson: 10.26, although the hurdles was his main event in track as he was the NCAA record holder in 60 meter hurdles at the time.
Chris Johnson: 10.38
OJ Simpson ran a 9.4 100 yard dash. They didn't run meters in the NCAA back then. The 1967 USC 4x100 team, which he was on, set the world record at the time.
Green was billed as the fastest CB, but i doubt he could've
outran Deion. It would've been a great race and whoever would've won it would've been by a millisecond either way.
Deion is the greatest CB I've ever seen, period. Was he much of a tackler?...no...however there's never been a better cover corner. I never seen a CB who was avoided by CBs and OCs as much as he was. He too was a freak athelete.
This takes nothing away from sehorn who was very talented as well. Also Revis pre injury is the best CB of this generation and is probably top 5 of all time. To shutdown CBs in this era is an incredible feat.
was one of my favorite players. Great speed, athletic ability, technique and very good hands. He was the anti Will Allen. Will Allen would get beat up by the ball, and it he had stone hands. JS was amazing. A great player pre injury.
One could say since JS retired, we haven't had a CB close to JS's ability.
and my memory is the Giants have never had someone fly across a football field like Sehorn did that year. He was a great CB
And the tragedy is, he was really just entering his prime at that point. And he was still pretty damn good post-injury (2000 season for example)
The Revis comparison is tough - I would say maybe Sehorn could have been better, if he had a few more years of his prime without the injury to play and develop
I think its a joke to compare him and PP athletically. A bigger joke that people are throwing around names like Revis and Darrell Green for a guy who had a good season on a stacked defense. If there was a pro football focus in those days, im not sure Phillipi Sparks coverage numbers wouldn';t have been better than Sehorns in 96 and 97
He was a good player but this thread like all sehorn threads is way over the top
Had a better year than Sehorn ever did. Gave up 1 TD all season, only allowed 300 or so yards receiving. He wasn't the athlete Sehorn was, but at his peak was a better cover guy
Hell Terrell Thomas in 09 on a defense with an abysmal front 7 and deplorable safety play, didn;t allow a TD all season until the Panther game in week 16
Id rank both of those seasons as being more impressive than Sehorns best
Sehorn really was a phenomenal, freakish athlete. He was a huge corner with great speed and tremendous coordination. I wouldn't compare them as football players, though, because Peterson is simply the better cornerback.
IIRC, Sehorn didn't start playing football until his senior year of high school, which could account for the fact that he was never a very instinctive player despite his prodigious physical gifts.
but agree with Randy, plus he had feet for hands. at least once a game it seemed those witty announcers would say CB's are WR's who can't catch after a Will Allen drop.
Revis was overhyped by that fat fuck of a jets coach. Best defensive playet in the league ... Bullshit. Typical ryan hype, it gave himself and his defense clout.
I've seen Peterson get spun around pretty good by smaller, quicker type of WRs, though to be fair I can't recall how Sehorn did vs the smaller types of WRs.
I should have said you had it backwards when arguing for Sehorn having a more fluid ease of movement or being more agile. Patrick Peterson could be an NFL WR, there is no question about it and they use him there in spurts. He is an elite punt returner (go youtube some of his TDs), even though his effectiveness there is down some because of how teams kick to him
That was incredible.
This guy had all kinds of odd weird exercises and stretches that he developed himself with no medical basis for them. He also had Sehorn raise his weight up 20 more lbs. Sehorn was never himself after that
2/3rds of the earth is covered by water.
The rest is covered by Sehorn...
Great point. She was banging. Still is.
He begged to be allowed to return kicks and was told NO many times prior to the injury.
During his first two years on the Giants, he played poorly and it looked like he might not make the team in year three.
He basically had the same athleticism as Michael Vick
He did not have the natural cover ability of, say, a Mark Collins or Revis. But his size and speed allowed him to match up with big receivers, such as Irvin and TO.
How "good" he was overall was always complicated by race since he was the only starting white CB in the league. His race led to hype both for him and against him. In retrospect, I would say if had not gotten injured he would have gone down as the best Giants DB of the last 40 years.
he had an incredibly bad knee injury and was never quite the same when he came back
so, we really don't know how good he would have been. If I had to guess I would say a top 5 CB in the game but not one of the all-time greats
Regarding that KO return--I think it was a great idea. You don't play scared and returners don't seem to be injured at a higher rate than other positions and breaking a return can be game-changing. And you don't play the game scared--or scared to play certain players for fear of injury.
Perhaps the only good thing about the 1996 Giants season, was we started to see that young defense start to gel, and Sehorn kept getting better and better. By 1997, he was looked at as kind of a freak for being not only a white corner, but one of the better corners in the game. He would make big plays (scored a TD on a pick in the clincher vs. the Redskins) and in the season finale at Dallas, he literally reduced Michael Irvin to tears as Irvin was so frustrated by how badly the Cowboys had fallen and Sehorn blanketed him that entire day. And he added another pick with a big run back against the Vikings in that God awful Wild Card loss.
When I think of Sehorn, you think of a guy who was on the cusp of being a super star, but that kickoff return against the Jets put an end to his rise. And then he became a BBI lightning rod with his workout decisions come 1999, as Fassel and many others felt he got too big/bulked up and never regained his quickness, even with the plays he made against Jacksonville (when you go back and see it, the Giants front protect line actually ran up at the Jags to engage them allowing Sehorn and easy path for a TD) and the Eagles pick 6.
He was solid in run support however, Phillipi Sparks was better in ru support. Shut down corner? No. STC is an adjective too easily tossed around and few could live up to it - Deion and a handful of others.
I would consider him a B+ corner. Really high character guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJmwASdf-BE - ( New Window )
As others have said, Michael Vick like athletic skills. Coverage ability was outstanding those 2 short seasons but short of perfect. Had he not gotten injured, who knows.
Green: 10.08
Deion: 10.21
Bo: 10.39
Willie Gault: 10.10....in 2011, Gault ran a 10.88 at the age of 51.
Herschel: 10.22
Bullet Bob Hayes: 10.06, which was the world record at the time
Ron Brown: 10.01
James Trapp: 10.03
It wasn't just the measurables. He was super smooth on the field. There are some guys who explode off the floor and he was one of them and he was a very big CB too.
His peak was very short but Sehorn was putting it all together. I agree he was no Revis because Revis dominated for a long time, avoided injuries, and really mastered the craft of playing CB (the contact he gets away with is a big part of it. It's a skill. Not a knock).
However, during Sehorn's peak he was one of the best defenders in the NFL. Saying he was nothing more than the 4th best player on the D is wrong. He was an impact defender and could eliminate the best WR on the other team.
He could have been an NFL WR too. No doubt about it.
Chris Johnson: 10.38
OJ Simpson ran a 9.4 100 yard dash. They didn't run meters in the NCAA back then. The 1967 USC 4x100 team, which he was on, set the world record at the time.
Deion is the greatest CB I've ever seen, period. Was he much of a tackler?...no...however there's never been a better cover corner. I never seen a CB who was avoided by CBs and OCs as much as he was. He too was a freak athelete.
This takes nothing away from sehorn who was very talented as well. Also Revis pre injury is the best CB of this generation and is probably top 5 of all time. To shutdown CBs in this era is an incredible feat.
Green was 72 when he ran that 4.2. He always lied about his age.
One could say since JS retired, we haven't had a CB close to JS's ability.
Only for 1 year, though (2000) and Green and Sanders were both at the end of the road by then.
And the tragedy is, he was really just entering his prime at that point. And he was still pretty damn good post-injury (2000 season for example)
The Revis comparison is tough - I would say maybe Sehorn could have been better, if he had a few more years of his prime without the injury to play and develop
He was a good player but this thread like all sehorn threads is way over the top
Hell Terrell Thomas in 09 on a defense with an abysmal front 7 and deplorable safety play, didn;t allow a TD all season until the Panther game in week 16
Id rank both of those seasons as being more impressive than Sehorns best
IIRC, Sehorn didn't start playing football until his senior year of high school, which could account for the fact that he was never a very instinctive player despite his prodigious physical gifts.
Seahorn could do anything Revis could.
I would take Seahorn over Revis.