I have been reading this board most days for about 8 years. This is my first post. In the late 50's Rosie Brown use to give my boss a few of his tickets to 3-4 games a year. Rosie was a first class guy and proud to use his name in my handle.
I'm going to state my opinion on hits and misses for two 5 year time periods. 2003 to 2007 was the Ernie Accorsi/Jerry Reese period. I am aware that Ernie left in mid January of the 2007 and wasn't at the draft in 2007. My belief is that the scouts, organization and methodologies at the time of the 2007 draft had Accorsi's fingerprints on it.
2008-2012 is the Jerry Reese/Marc Ross VP of Player Evaluation plus Chris Mara as the Senior VP of Player Evaluation. As a fan it is not possible to know how much weight each man's opinion carries is the draft process. We also don't know how much the position coaches opinions weigh in the draft process. We really don't know if Simtim was Tom Coughlin's pick or not. It may be that so many people are involved that almost no one believes they are responsible. I believe the Giants have drafted poorly (particularly in the mid and late rounds)over the past 5 years and this is one of the major reasons for our poor showing this year.
In my opinion Jerry Reese and John Mara are responsible for this failure.
I think it was Bob Kraft who said "it's not your best 15 players but your worst 15 players who determine how our team does on the field".
2003-2007
Hits
Zak DeOssie
Barry Cofield
Brandon Jacobs
Kevin Boss
Gibril Wilson
David Diehl
Michael Johnson(not a star but 159 tackles not bad for a 7th rounder)
Frank Walker
Ahmad Bradshaw
David Tyree
Reggie Torbor (150+ tackles)
Misses
Roderick Babers
Guy Whimper (still playing)
2005 5th round pick to San Diego (could be considered a hit depending how you value Eli's contribution)
Adam Koets
Charlie Peprah
Eric Moore
Jamaar Taylor
Willie Ponder
Gerrick McPhearson
Drew Strojny
Isaac Hilton
2008-2012
Hits
Jonathan Goff (earned starter status when an injury took him out)
Jacquian Williams (154 tackles for a 7th round pick)
Misses
Adrien Robinson(early call but really hasn't seen the field in 2 years)
James Brewer(starting due to injury but could get Eli killed.)
Phillip Dillard
Travis Beckum
Bryan Kehl
Brandon Mosley
Greg Jones
Mitch Petrus
Andre Brown (left as a miss and returned after 5-6 teams as a hit)
Matt McCants
Tyler Sash
Adrian Tracy
Rhett Bomar
Marcus Kuhn (9 tackles severe leg injury)
Matt Dodge
Andre Woodson
When I see Jerry trading up to draft Jernigan or Nassib it drives me crazy. There's a lot of solid players to be found after the first 3 picks.
I am sure some or many of you will have different opinions on the players listed above. This is my effort to point out how poorly the Giants have done in the later rounds over the past 5 years. I tried to be as objective as I could.
Cheers,
Bob
I hear the same complaint from people here all the time. But what are people comparing to? What makes them certain that we've done worse in those rounds than a lot of other teams?
And what about teams that wind up with busts from the first round. How often has that happened with Reese? (And I don't want to hear about Wilson.. the book is far from closed there)
So, (I think) I know what needs to be done to get a better gauge of our drafts. I'm just too lazy or busy to do it...
I like Andre Brown but until he actually plays even 1 full season I can't consider him a hit. Until then he is a tease.
Andre Brown is pretty clearly good enough to warrant being picked where he was. To me it's a good pick that wound up having unfortunate circumstances tied to it in the way of injuries.
He's been productive when healthy these past couple years. I just can't call that pick a "miss" and see his name grouped in with guys like Sintim and Dillard. He's nowhere near that.
The ONLY draft statistic that is really meaningful in the final analysis is the team's regular and post-season record.
And the GIANTS record absolutely stinks over the last year and a half, due in large part to the failure of their pasts six drafts to deliver the QUALITY AND QUANTITY of players required to keep a championship team even competitive any longer.
I am as critical of the coaching staff as anyone anywhere, and believe that much of this coaching staff have overstayed their time here, but they did win a couple of Super Bowls so there has to be more to the story than just stale coaching.
And there is more. It's lack of player talent, and that's on the drafting because the draft was, is, and always will be the primary way to build an NFL team. The GIANTS are not getting it done any more with the draft. The road to rebuilding has to start in the front office and it should not wait for the end of the season, either.
Case closed.
Andre Brown is pretty clearly good enough to warrant being picked where he was. To me it's a good pick that wound up having unfortunate circumstances tied to it in the way of injuries.
He's been productive when healthy these past couple years. I just can't call that pick a "miss" and see his name grouped in with guys like Sintim and Dillard. He's nowhere near that.
Fair enough. I wouldn't do that either.
Andre Brown was drafted in 2009 waived the following year before the season started. He was subsequently waved by the Bronco's, Colt's, Panther's and Redskins. To me, as a pick he was a miss. As a player today he is a fine player. So it is true that some good players are cut and later turn out to be good.
Brandon Mosley from what I can tell has not played a down in almost his first two years after being drafted. This is a team that has no guards or center for most of this season. He may work out for us (I truly hope so). But at this stage my opinion is that he is a bust.
Adrien Robinson. Same story here. We have a very bad Tight End situation. Two years into a 4 year contract. Was in 2 games in 2012 and no appearances in 2013. May turn out to be great but at this stage.
Totally agree on Wilson. Way too early to write him off has been very productive at times.
Point of the post is that we drafted 11 contributors between 2003 and 2007 in the late rounds. Between 2008 and 2012 we drafted 2.
Perhaps some of the guys I've called misses become productive over the next two years. Believe me nothing would make me happier.
Cheers,
Bob
2010 6th rd Adrian Tracy DE/LB combo pick # 184 William & Mary a couple picks
later Starks/A.Brown wr,pitt
2010 7th rd Matt Dodge P pick # 221 Pick # 251 Stevie Brown DB
2009 2nd rd Clint Sintim Pick # 45 8 picks late LeSean McCoy
granted we had rb's but did the organization really need to draft a tweanner Lb/De
2009 6th rd DeAndre Wright DB Pick # 200 next two picks Painter/Myers
two guys who are on our team now??
I think the quote was, "where did you dig him up from".
I will say this, though. We're pretty consistently hitting on our early picks and I think that's extremely important.
2007: Ross, Smith
2008: Phillips, Thomas
2009: Nicks
2010: JPP, LinJo
2011: Prince
2012: Wilson, Randle
2013: Pugh, Hankins
Sintim and Austin are the only clear busts/bad selections. The rest all contributed to championships or are contributing now & will contribute in the future. Wilson is still a "?" but I think it's completely unfair to call him a bad pick right now. Verdict still out, though. Certainly.
And you can't call a player who was developing for 3 years, projected to maybe be a starter but get injured, a "miss". That has to be "undecided".
By the way, speaking of 2007: DeOssie is a miss, and it's not even debatable. He was drafted as a linebacker. Nobody drafts a long-snapper, let alone in the fourth round. I love the guy, but he was a terrible draft pick.
The tendency to lump him with the other flops from the 2009 draft has never made much sense to me.
Giants have really been bad in rounds 4-7 over the past 5 years.
Cheers,
Bob
He was drafted in 2006 and played in 8 games, 16 games in 2007 out for all of 2008 with an injury and played in 8 games in 2009 when he was released.
In 4 years with the Giants he started 0 games. This is the reason I feel he was a miss for the Giants.
He started 1 game in 2010. In 8 years he has 24 starts mostly with Jacksonville.
2007: Ross(backup, at best), Smith(out of football)
2008: Phillips(out of football), Thomas(not what he was, and his future is questionable)
2009: Nicks(two years of injuries(?) taken their toll)
2010: JPP(1.5 years of nothing), LinJo(solid, steady, nothing spectacular)
2011: Prince(good CB, but no where near, one of the best)
2012: Wilson(flashes, and now potential neck problem), Randle(very inconsistent)
2013: Pugh, Hankins.....the jury is out on both until after next year....
So, out of all those picks, we have LJ and Prince who are playing ok the last two years....the rest? Is it any wonder this team has floundered?
The ONLY draft statistic that is really meaningful in the final analysis is the team's regular and post-season record.
And the GIANTS record absolutely stinks over the last year and a half, due in large part to the failure of their pasts six drafts to deliver the QUALITY AND QUANTITY of players required to keep a championship team even competitive any longer.
I am as critical of the coaching staff as anyone anywhere, and believe that much of this coaching staff have overstayed their time here, but they did win a couple of Super Bowls so there has to be more to the story than just stale coaching.
And there is more. It's lack of player talent, and that's on the drafting because the draft was, is, and always will be the primary way to build an NFL team. The GIANTS are not getting it done any more with the draft. The road to rebuilding has to start in the front office and it should not wait for the end of the season, either.
Case closed.
I agree with you, Red Dog.
By the way, speaking of 2007: DeOssie is a miss, and it's not even debatable. He was drafted as a linebacker. Nobody drafts a long-snapper, let alone in the fourth round. I love the guy, but he was a terrible draft pick.
Normally I would normally agree with you 100%, but i remember all the issues we had in the preceding years with long snapping.
2007: Ross(backup, at best), Smith(out of football)
2008: Phillips(out of football), Thomas(not what he was, and his future is questionable)
2009: Nicks(two years of injuries(?) taken their toll)
2010: JPP(1.5 years of nothing), LinJo(solid, steady, nothing spectacular)
2011: Prince(good CB, but no where near, one of the best)
2012: Wilson(flashes, and now potential neck problem), Randle(very inconsistent)
2013: Pugh, Hankins.....the jury is out on both until after next year....
So, out of all those picks, we have LJ and Prince who are playing ok the last two years....the rest? Is it any wonder this team has floundered?
Again, though.. unless the player has an extensive injury history already in college, you can't predict the future. The picks themselves are pretty much all good ones because the players played well and helped the team win games when they were healthy. Injuries that happen beyond drafting a guy isn't really an indictment on the pick itself because it's impossible to predict in most cases.
Is it really likely that other teams saw the same collapse in
middle to late round results from 2008 onward relative to pre-2007 results that the Giants did when the leadership of the draft shifted?
yearly draft picks - ( New Window )
Would I like our drafts to be better? Sure. I'm guessing fans of most teams would probably say the same, though.
I had posted on another thread the misses that both Newsome and Thompson had in the 1st 3 rounds and the lists are as long as Reese
It is amazing how many people think Newsome does not miss. It is not true
Reese big negative is that his 3rd round picks have been nothing but role players and some not even that
The Giants best def player is hurt. Their top WR has checked out after game 1. The franchise QB has made too many shit throws when hot pressured - that is why they are losing
Chad Jones also could have been a good 3rd rd pick, we'll just unfortunately never know. A lot of us loved that pick at the time.
And a guy like DaMontre could absolutely wind up panning out. We'll have to see where he goes from here. I'm not even ready to completely dismiss Hosley yet (though his inability to get and stay on the field has been very frustrating)
Jernigan was probably a bad pick, though. But even still.. I've always felt like he could be a decent slot guy. He's just never really had much chance with Cruz. He did catch 7 passes after Cruz got hurt last Sunday.. but then proceeded to get hurt himself. He has an opportunity to prove he's worth a shit these last 2 games if he can get on the field.
Did we even try him out at LB or were we so strong at that position that he didn't stand a chance?
To be optomistic, this can be corrected with just a few good drafts.....
Cheers,
Bob
Some here want to credit the magnificent draft of 2007 all to Jerry Reese and none to Ernie Acorrsi. I disagree. If 2007 makes Jerry Reese a drafting genius then what happened in 2008,2009 and 2010 in rounds 4-7. Nearly a complete failure. Do you believe that we pin that on Marc Ross and Jerry had no responsibility?
The responsibility of the draft is spread over the scouts, positional coaches (Dl,Ol,DB,etc)who I am fairly certain will grade various prospects, Head Coach, Off Coor, Def Coor, and Management. The process is complicated and I am sure very thorough. Many people are asked for their input. In the end it is hard to assign responsibility for failed picks.
Cheers,
Bob
Not a bad football career for someone, from a "football powerhouse", like Brown....
And what are the odds that a father and son, would play for the same team, and each win a SB ring? Of course, Zak always brags, when his father is within ear shot, that he has two rings....
But analyzing anything without taking the entire picture into account does not often give youe correct readings. If you want to look at the draft, look at the draft. Picking out the weakest part of Reese's draft without discussing the strengths is not the correct way to look into this. You are using statistics to further a predisposed idea you already have, rather than trying to come to the real conclusion.
It's the same thing where people say, "if you take away the 2 SB's the Giants down have any playoff wins under TC."
Well, if you take away the accomplishments of most people you are only going to be left with the negative. You need to see the entire picture.