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Schwartz, Post: "Giants seem destined for mediocrity"

sphinx : 10/29/2014 9:20 am
It was interesting both Reese and Tom Coughlin stressed the need for this team to play above the Xs and Os, meaning simply carrying out individual assignments is not going to get it done.

Who on this roster can rise above? Coughlin said, You look around the league and you see teams that are playing superbly that maybe hadnt been playing superbly.

Translation: You do not have to be what your current record says you are. But this might be what the Giants are.


Link - ( New Window )
Destined?  
dep026 : 10/29/2014 9:22 am : link
Wow, great wording. Another shit article to pass on.
It's been a big issue for this team for two years  
JonC : 10/29/2014 9:26 am : link
since the downtrend in late 2012, the lack of discipline, repeated mistakes, uninspired play, not playing above etc have all been present ranging from mild to dreadful. A lack of talent is part of the equation, as is coaching/gameplanning, but ultimately the player themselves must raise their level of performance.
RE: It's been a big issue for this team for two years  
Curtis in VA : 10/29/2014 9:44 am : link
In comment 11946157 JonC said:
Quote:
since the downtrend in late 2012, the lack of discipline, repeated mistakes, uninspired play, not playing above etc have all been present ranging from mild to dreadful. A lack of talent is part of the equation, as is coaching/gameplanning, but ultimately the player themselves must raise their level of performance.


Do you think its a safe bet that they've gotten the best they're going to get from Coughlin? I agree that the players need to raise their level of performance and that their effort has been lackluster. Never thought I'd say it but I wonder if whats needed is a fresh face and a new message.
I thought it was safe to say that over a year ago.  
GiantFilthy : 10/29/2014 9:56 am : link
.
Here  
Brian1503 : 10/29/2014 10:00 am : link
Here
Curtis  
JonC : 10/29/2014 10:05 am : link
It could be, it also could be the players perceive the defensive scheme (and the DC) isn't keeping up with newer offensive schemes, for example. I don't know enough to say for certain, but I know enough to say we're consistently beaten and beaten badly. And, we're only defeating bad football teams, so clearly changes and building the talent are required.
No one makes  
area junc : 10/29/2014 10:06 am : link
Plays. Strangest thing. We regularly go huge amts of time with nobody making a play. Happened under KG + and now mcAdoo
Well lets see ...  
sackpack : 10/29/2014 10:18 am : link
We need bigger and better offensive linemen; bigger and faster receivers; a RB who is strong, fast, and durable; a few quality pass-rushers, NFL-quality linebackers, some more safeties, a new defensive coordinator, and a new special teams coach. We have a long long way to go ! Speed is a missing element throughout the team.
TC has won before with the pieces in place.  
Crispino : 10/29/2014 10:20 am : link
Amazing how the coach suddenly can't coach when his roster is full of holes and the team gets depleted by a rash of injuries. I don't know how the coach's message get old, just because the team suffers from a talent deficit.

The roster turns over every year. How many guys are still on the roster from Super Bowl 46? How does an ever rotating group of young players suddenly determine that a 2 time Super Bowl winning coach does not have enough credibility to listen to his message. I don't buy that. We just don't have a good enough roster to compete with the top teams in the league.
My biggest issue with this team - execution of simple plays  
teso56 : 10/29/2014 10:21 am : link
I'm not sure how much coaching can help players in very specific instances where they just fail to execute simple plays. Perhaps its talent level or football intelligence, but this team seems to lack the intangibles to execute.

An example of from Dallas game:

- Beatty false start on 4th and 1 - killed drive in dallas territory
- Randle holding penalty on wr screen that killed a drive - killed drive in dallas territory
- Donnell fumble in giants territory

Arizona game - the game changed on a punt return, fumble kickoff, etc...

Mistakes like this are the difference between winning and losing tightly contested games, and at this point the Giants make a lot of them.

I believe this is what Reese and Coughlin mean when they say "above the x's and o's"

Good players  
old man : 10/29/2014 10:27 am : link
can change that.
The good ones do their job well,the great ones do their job the best.
RE: Well lets see ...  
mrvax : 10/29/2014 10:29 am : link
In comment 11946281 sackpack said:
Quote:
We need bigger and better offensive linemen; bigger and faster receivers; a RB who is strong, fast, and durable; a few quality pass-rushers, NFL-quality linebackers, some more safeties, a new defensive coordinator, and a new special teams coach. We have a long long way to go ! Speed is a missing element throughout the team.


That about sums it up.
mired in mediocrity....  
Simms11 : 10/29/2014 10:30 am : link
frustrating last few years.
They don't have enough TALENT. Period. Players make the same mistakes  
Victor in CT : 10/29/2014 10:32 am : link
because that's who they are. They are doing the best they can. You can coach them all day, they still have to go out and perform. It's like teaching kids. If the kid has "C" ability, he's going to get Cs, maybe Bs with some extra effort and luck. He is not going to be "coached up" into an A student.
destiny can be  
Les in TO : 10/29/2014 10:32 am : link
changed with gettijng jennings back and offensive line consistency.
Sheesh, what we NEED now is HEALTH to  
Big Blue '56 : 10/29/2014 10:33 am : link
key people..If Beason, Schwartz, our secondary and Jennings were healthy, the topic of mediocrity wouldn't be an issue..We'd probably be 5-2 in all likelihood and these stupid headlines and posts wouldn't be an issue save for the usual idiots..

We have the talent. Sure we can use more talent, who couldn't?

Trent Dilfer explains the term well  
JonC : 10/29/2014 10:34 am : link
He also personified playing within the x's and o's in winning the SB with Baltimore.

Eli's post-season play is an example of playing above them, the 2011 NYG played well above them. They transcended their talent level, the sum was much greater than the individual parts, etc.
Health and more talent will certainly help  
JonC : 10/29/2014 10:36 am : link
but it doesn't explain away everything from the past 24 months.
Denail  
djstat : 10/29/2014 10:43 am : link
Why are so many people bent out of shape? We simply are not a good TEAM. Have some great players but not a good team. 3-4 with no real win of substance. Our drafted depth is awful. Love this franchise, but the 2014 team is poor.
Mediocre  
bignygfan : 10/29/2014 10:43 am : link
So sad that this is what we have become.

When does baseball season start again?
RE: Trent Dilfer explains the term well  
vibe4giants : 10/29/2014 10:52 am : link
In comment 11946318 JonC said:
Quote:
He also personified playing within the x's and o's in winning the SB with Baltimore.

Eli's post-season play is an example of playing above them, the 2011 NYG played well above them. They transcended their talent level, the sum was much greater than the individual parts, etc.


Yes. Everyone enjoys so much reflecting back on the SB win, but forgetting how thin that team's margins were. Not many SB winners have been so close to not even making the play-offs.
djstat is right. I viewed this as a transition or developmental season  
Victor in CT : 10/29/2014 10:53 am : link
going in. If they get to December at 5-6 or with some luck 6-5, then not only do we have reason to care about playoff contention, but it would also mean that some of the younger players are blossoming. But to think they have the depth of talent to be a serious contender this year is just not realistic.
RE: RE: Trent Dilfer explains the term well  
Big Blue '56 : 10/29/2014 11:10 am : link
In comment 11946352 vibe4giants said:
Quote:
In comment 11946318 JonC said:


Quote:


He also personified playing within the x's and o's in winning the SB with Baltimore.

Eli's post-season play is an example of playing above them, the 2011 NYG played well above them. They transcended their talent level, the sum was much greater than the individual parts, etc.



Yes. Everyone enjoys so much reflecting back on the SB win, but forgetting how thin that team's margins were. Not many SB winners have been so close to not even making the play-offs.


So true. 2008 Cards, 2010 Packers, 2012 Ravens for example
I don't like his article,  
FatHeadTommy : 10/29/2014 11:17 am : link
but it is certainly not too far off. Until we actually beat someone that matters, we are what we are. Do I really believe we are going to beat Indy on MNF? No. Are we going to go to Seattle - a team that has to be getting pissed off - and win? No.

Sure, we'll end the season winning against some mediocre teams and we'll end up with no play-offs and a middle of the road draft position. Then what? Do any of you see this changing and if so, HOW?
RE: RE: Trent Dilfer explains the term well  
JonC : 10/29/2014 11:23 am : link
In comment 11946352 vibe4giants said:
Quote:
In comment 11946318 JonC said:


Quote:


He also personified playing within the x's and o's in winning the SB with Baltimore.

Eli's post-season play is an example of playing above them, the 2011 NYG played well above them. They transcended their talent level, the sum was much greater than the individual parts, etc.



Yes. Everyone enjoys so much reflecting back on the SB win, but forgetting how thin that team's margins were. Not many SB winners have been so close to not even making the play-offs.


I haven't forgotten, I've posted about it here many, many times in detail that other posters find annoying. Regardless, the team's performance was above the x's and o's.
... over the last six games of the run  
JonC : 10/29/2014 11:25 am : link
of course, the first fourteen games were uneven to say the least.
Now if Eli Pulls a Tarkenton  
Arkbach : 10/29/2014 11:25 am : link
and just says he's outta here, that may be the catalyst for the necessary changes. Poor Eli. He has a few good years left and could get to the SB again, but not with this team. His contract is up after 2015 I believe. He can say he's not re-signing and they'll have to do something.
I watch a ton of NFL football  
BlueHurricane : 10/29/2014 11:28 am : link
The league is full of mediocre teams. What we need is for the guys on this team to play extremely motivated, nasty football in order win. You see it week in and week out. The team that decides to say screw our record, we are going to fly around and knock the snot out of you is the team that wins. Unfortunately over the past few years we have been the team that looks for a place to hide after getting punched in the mouth. We need to nut up and fly around. Not hard to see.
Sorry but  
area junc : 10/29/2014 11:31 am : link
Injuries are not an excuse in the NFL. They will happen to every team - lots of them. Still expect a base level of performance and too often we dont get it.
vibe  
JonC : 10/29/2014 11:33 am : link
I misread your post, my bad.
Before I write off Coughlin and say they need a "fresh voice"  
Matt M. : 10/29/2014 11:41 am : link
I want to see 2 things. One, how do they finish this season. If they finish strong and walk away anywhere from 8-8 to 10-6, I would keep him.

But, two, I want to see both Fewell and Quinn gone. This is, in my mind, imperative in order for Coughlin to stay. They are both terrible coaches who, in my estimation, have cost us a ton of games with the jobs they have done. If Coughlin is unwilling to fire both, especially if it is a disappointing season, then there is no reason to keep him as will be more of the same next year.
RE: Sheesh, what we NEED now is HEALTH to  
AnishPatel : 10/29/2014 11:56 am : link
In comment 11946317 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
key people..If Beason, Schwartz, our secondary and Jennings were healthy, the topic of mediocrity wouldn't be an issue..We'd probably be 5-2 in all likelihood and these stupid headlines and posts wouldn't be an issue save for the usual idiots..

We have the talent. Sure we can use more talent, who couldn't?


Now, sure health would be good. However, we are lacking talent on both sides of the ball. That's just from a talent standpoint and not factoring scheme into the equation for both sides of the ball.

Beason and health are two terms that don't go together. The guy was injury prone with the Panthers. Comes in plays well, and after signing here gets hurt. I am not surprised by this shit. It's not like he has never missed a game throughout his career.

The OG hasn't played so not sure what he is and what he can do. Jennings in the passing game hurts us. But the OL isn't run blocking so not sure how he would do currently.

We need more talent, and true all teams can say that, but we need an upgrade across the board because we are not a talented team.
Why is it most every team in this league has injuries  
micky : 10/29/2014 12:07 pm : link
and somehow at most times stays it course. The same mantra for a few seasons here has been injuries and it derails this team. Is it injuries or talent or a combo of everything coaching, injuries, talent, etc.

its just been too consistent lately.
The giants  
dontboobigblue : 10/29/2014 12:15 pm : link
are more likely to finish with 6 wins than make the playoffs.

We've all become accustomed to mediocrity....  
silverfox : 10/29/2014 12:50 pm : link
...since the Gods pronounced the Giants king for a day for what seems like a lifetime ago now.

I see nothing to change the existing status. Coughlin's words ring hollow at this point. He can't talk his way into the light anymore. Nobody can.
Coaching?  
rocco8112 : 10/29/2014 12:56 pm : link
I find it very difficult to believe that there is another coach out there who could do a better job with this group. I am fairly certain that another coach would do much worse.

Coaches can only work with the roster they are given. No one could honestly say that the Giants are a loaded team right now. Granted, there are no great teams in the NFL, but within our own division I think there is a bit of a talent gap. Particularly on offense where the Eagles and Cowboys (outside of QB) have noticeably more talent.

The Giants won the super bowl in '11 with a team that was basically in decline. The '10 Giants were a better squad overall that pissed away the year with an insane number of turnovers and a historic collapse at home. In '11 the Giants peaked at the right time and won a title due to one of the greatest quarterbacking performances of all time. I loved every minute of it but I do not think anyone can truthfully argue that the 2011 Giants were loaded with talent. They had the best QB play in the NFL and an awesome receiving corps. But they did play "over their heads" and a lot of that has to do with coaching. TC does not get enough credit for that.

Late 2012 and the shit show that was 2013 finished the collapse and now the team is rebuilding. Luckily this can happen quickly in the NFL when you have a franchise QB.

In addition Coughlin has many other accomplishments on his resume. Some quick ones are the 11 consecutive road games in 2007 capped off by the ultimate road win in frozen conditions in the NFC title game. Coughlin gets way too little credit for that aspect of the run and I doubt we ever see a road performance streak like that again.

Even last season, which was by far the worst of his tenure, the Giants did not implode and even came one defensive stop away from getting back in the division race. Compare that to the Jets this year who are spiraling out of control and on their way to a brutal season. Heck, the Giants lost only two more games last year than they did during the '11 championship season.

Coughlin is a great coach and there is no reason to believe anyone could do a better job with this group. Sadly, his problem is his age. If the Giants tank this year and decide to go even further into a rebuild. I am sure ownership will ask themselves if he has enough years left to be the guy to lead it.
RE: Coaching?  
Victor in CT : 10/29/2014 1:00 pm : link
In comment 11946667 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
I find it very difficult to believe that there is another coach out there who could do a better job with this group. I am fairly certain that another coach would do much worse.

Coaches can only work with the roster they are given. No one could honestly say that the Giants are a loaded team right now. Granted, there are no great teams in the NFL, but within our own division I think there is a bit of a talent gap. Particularly on offense where the Eagles and Cowboys (outside of QB) have noticeably more talent.

The Giants won the super bowl in '11 with a team that was basically in decline. The '10 Giants were a better squad overall that pissed away the year with an insane number of turnovers and a historic collapse at home. In '11 the Giants peaked at the right time and won a title due to one of the greatest quarterbacking performances of all time. I loved every minute of it but I do not think anyone can truthfully argue that the 2011 Giants were loaded with talent. They had the best QB play in the NFL and an awesome receiving corps. But they did play "over their heads" and a lot of that has to do with coaching. TC does not get enough credit for that.

Late 2012 and the shit show that was 2013 finished the collapse and now the team is rebuilding. Luckily this can happen quickly in the NFL when you have a franchise QB.

In addition Coughlin has many other accomplishments on his resume. Some quick ones are the 11 consecutive road games in 2007 capped off by the ultimate road win in frozen conditions in the NFC title game. Coughlin gets way too little credit for that aspect of the run and I doubt we ever see a road performance streak like that again.

Even last season, which was by far the worst of his tenure, the Giants did not implode and even came one defensive stop away from getting back in the division race. Compare that to the Jets this year who are spiraling out of control and on their way to a brutal season. Heck, the Giants lost only two more games last year than they did during the '11 championship season.

Coughlin is a great coach and there is no reason to believe anyone could do a better job with this group. Sadly, his problem is his age. If the Giants tank this year and decide to go even further into a rebuild. I am sure ownership will ask themselves if he has enough years left to be the guy to lead it.


Good post.
RE: TC has won before with the pieces in place.  
nicky43 : 10/29/2014 1:12 pm : link
In comment 11946284 Crispino said:
Quote:
Amazing how the coach suddenly can't coach when his roster is full of holes and the team gets depleted by a rash of injuries. I don't know how the coach's message get old, just because the team suffers from a talent deficit.

The roster turns over every year. How many guys are still on the roster from Super Bowl 46? How does an ever rotating group of young players suddenly determine that a 2 time Super Bowl winning coach does not have enough credibility to listen to his message. I don't buy that. We just don't have a good enough roster to compete with the top teams in the league.


Excellent comments. Especially when you point out that his message can't be getting stale when 90% of the team hasn't been here more than a few years. And if anyone knows anything about TC it is that he is always thinking up new messages to motivate the team plus he is great at bringing in people the team can respect to add to the message.

We are currently seriously lacking talent but TC can't say that because that is counter to giving the players the confidence they need to play at a higher level.
good stuff  
JonC : 10/29/2014 1:48 pm : link
rocco, Crispino, teso
RE: RE: RE: Trent Dilfer explains the term well  
vibe4giants : 10/29/2014 3:46 pm : link
In comment 11946387 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 11946352 vibe4giants said:


Quote:


In comment 11946318 JonC said:


Quote:


He also personified playing within the x's and o's in winning the SB with Baltimore.

Eli's post-season play is an example of playing above them, the 2011 NYG played well above them. They transcended their talent level, the sum was much greater than the individual parts, etc.



Yes. Everyone enjoys so much reflecting back on the SB win, but forgetting how thin that team's margins were. Not many SB winners have been so close to not even making the play-offs.



So true. 2008 Cards, 2010 Packers, 2012 Ravens for example


Here are just some of the ways these analogies don't hold.

*The '08 Cardinals didn't win the Super Bowl. (Okay, that's an easy one.)

*Both the '12 Ravens and '10 Packers won 10 games each. (Including the Packers beating the Giants.)

*The Giants, of course, needed to win the battle of 8-7 teams against the Cowboys just to make the play-offs. (Having beaten the 8 win Jets in the previous week's must-win situation.)

*But it wasn't just win totals, which of course can be skewed. The '11 Giants were the first team in NFL history to reach the Super Bowl with a negative point differential. Where, of course, they became the first sub-10 win team to win it. So by some fairly objective standards, the '11 Giants weren't as good as the Packers or Ravens teams you cite.

Pretty sure you recently touted the virtues of the Giants 10-6, even though the Giants didn't "technically' make the play-offs. So, yeah. The '11 Giants team wasn't actually all that good, even though they 'technically' won the SB. (I'm just using your word 'technically' because it struck me as funny at the time.)

Of course the Giants winning that SB was still awesome and thrilling. Perhaps even more so, because the team was so flawed. But the play-off run and ultimate victory leaves some folks remembering that team as better than it was.


I'm certainly in the minority here  
David in LA : 10/29/2014 3:57 pm : link
but this board vastly overrates TC. I think he's more fortunate to have had Eli than it is the other way around.
To add to vibe's quality post,  
BrettNYG10 : 10/29/2014 4:21 pm : link
The Ravens clinched in week 16 and lost in week 17 by six points playing their backups for the majority of the game (against the playoff-bound Bengals, who I believe needed the game).
Correction.  
BrettNYG10 : 10/29/2014 4:27 pm : link
The Bengals did not need that game to make the playoffs.

We also had an 8-8 playoff team during 2006. Sort of bullshit to whine about the bad luck (or really, complete choke job of the team) in 2010 without mentioning the good fortune in 2006 of making the playoffs as an average team.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Trent Dilfer explains the term well  
Big Blue '56 : 10/29/2014 5:08 pm : link
In comment 11947055 vibe4giants said:
Quote:
In comment 11946387 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 11946352 vibe4giants said:


Quote:


In comment 11946318 JonC said:


Quote:


He also personified playing within the x's and o's in winning the SB with Baltimore.

Eli's post-season play is an example of playing above them, the 2011 NYG played well above them. They transcended their talent level, the sum was much greater than the individual parts, etc.



Yes. Everyone enjoys so much reflecting back on the SB win, but forgetting how thin that team's margins were. Not many SB winners have been so close to not even making the play-offs.



So true. 2008 Cards, 2010 Packers, 2012 Ravens for example



Here are just some of the ways these analogies don't hold.

*The '08 Cardinals didn't win the Super Bowl. (Okay, that's an easy one.)

*Both the '12 Ravens and '10 Packers won 10 games each. (Including the Packers beating the Giants.)

*The Giants, of course, needed to win the battle of 8-7 teams against the Cowboys just to make the play-offs. (Having beaten the 8 win Jets in the previous week's must-win situation.)

*But it wasn't just win totals, which of course can be skewed. The '11 Giants were the first team in NFL history to reach the Super Bowl with a negative point differential. Where, of course, they became the first sub-10 win team to win it. So by some fairly objective standards, the '11 Giants weren't as good as the Packers or Ravens teams you cite.

Pretty sure you recently touted the virtues of the Giants 10-6, even though the Giants didn't "technically' make the play-offs. So, yeah. The '11 Giants team wasn't actually all that good, even though they 'technically' won the SB. (I'm just using your word 'technically' because it struck me as funny at the time.)

Of course the Giants winning that SB was still awesome and thrilling. Perhaps even more so, because the team was so flawed. But the play-off run and ultimate victory leaves some folks remembering that team as better than it was.



Stick to digging me on, "wait until it all plays out," or on my "strong feel or sense" of how the Giants would do against the Cowboys(as though any feel or prediction isn't guesswork), as you're really effective with that ..But it doesn't matter that they won 9 or 10 games..They were all wild cards and went the distance..Sorry the Cards were a Santonio Holmes questionable catch away from winning it all..But yes, they didn't "win" which certainly "makes" your point..The Packers were lucky as hell to get in and subsequently win it all thanks to a missed Celek tackle by Phillips and a once(perhaps twice) in a lifetime blown 31-10 Giants lead with 7 1/2 minutes to play..Certainly not anywhere in the "lucky" class (the Packers, that is) that the stars-aligned Giants were..Of course not.. So yes, Teams as lucky or fortunate as the Giants are rare indeed..

And for your edification and AFTER IT ALL PLAYED OUT, The 2007 Giants won 14 games to take the championship and not 10..Final 2007 record: 14-6...2011 Giants won 13 games to win the title again..Final record: 13-7

That's how informed fans judge an entire season..

And btw, the Giants were not mediocre  
Big Blue '56 : 10/29/2014 5:19 pm : link
in 2007 and 2011. Sorry that how they won it all didn't fit your or other fans parameters of how a team should perform during an entire 16 game schedule..It is a parity league and many teams are bunched with 8-10 wins..The rules have changed..Anyone can win it all..I'd rather be the mediocre Giants than the consistent Forty-Niners who having nothing to show for their recent string of success..Nothing.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/29/2014 5:20 pm : link
Quote:
They were all wild cards and went the distance


The Packers were the only wild card of the three teams you listed.
Who's 'digging you on'? (Whatever that means.) *You* responded to me.  
vibe4giants : 10/29/2014 5:27 pm : link
I responded, with facts, as to why I felt your analogy was poor.

BTW, informed fans know the '11 Giants were *not* a Wild Card team. They won the division.

Every word you typed about '07 is irrelevant to the discussion of the '11 team.

So, to answer my own question at the top, you're the only one digging here. It's your hole, though. So have at it.

....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/29/2014 5:29 pm : link
Also worth pointing out:

The Packers lost 7-3 to the Packers with Aaron Rodgers out for a half. They lost 31-27 to the Patriots the following week without Rodgers.
Still digging?  
vibe4giants : 10/29/2014 5:31 pm : link
Quote:
And btw, the Giants were not mediocre

Big Blue '56 : 5:19 pm : link : reply
in 2007 and 2011.

.
Quote:
I'd rather be the mediocre Giants than the consistent Forty-Niners who having nothing to show for their recent string of success..Nothing.


So...the Giants weren't mediocre in '11 (the only thing I've been discussing)...but you still prefer their mediocrity the 49ers consistency? Wha?
RE: ....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/29/2014 5:34 pm : link
In comment 11947216 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Also worth pointing out:

The Packers lost 7-3 to the Packers with Aaron Rodgers out for a half. They lost 31-27 to the Patriots the following week without Rodgers.


Lost to the Lions.

Dammit.
Of course the Giants won the division in their  
Big Blue '56 : 10/29/2014 5:50 pm : link
showdown with the Cowboys in 2011, I typed too fast..The 2011 Giants were not mediocre..Sorry that they got hot at the end instead of playing consistently throughout..Not many teams do save for the Patriots of this millenium..Seattle's consistency is of very recent vintage as is the Niners' success..

Again, they were 13-7 for 2011 or .650..Far from mediocre or average or pedestrian..

Not sure why it's important to pick out flaws for a team that won it all..

An aside: As for this year, I don't know if they are mediocre or not..They may prove to be after 9 more games..All I know is that the OL cannot play as they did against Philly. That was atrocious..And embarrassing..Schwartz coming back should help, but he's rusty..As I previously said, Jennings injury has been a killer. Cruz is obvious..OBD is just getting started..We went from a strong Secondary to paper thin..Reese did his job in FA. That Schwartz has been out the whole season, that a valuable player like Thurmond has been lost for the season, that DRC has been extremely hampered by injury and Jennings' injury are not his fault..We had talent coming in, enough to compete with...McAdoo is learning on the fly. Eli's been terrific imo..

I disagree with many here who cite talent as our problem Maybe now, being thin and all, but coming in we were(and still might be) competitive..
RE: Of course the Giants won the division in their  
vibe4giants : 10/29/2014 6:11 pm : link

Quote:

Not sure why it's important to pick out flaws for a team that won it all..


It's less valid than touting the virtues of a team that didn't even make the play-offs?

It's a nuanced conversation, I'll grant. A question of whether or not that hot streak and HUGE result masked, by one year, a downward trend into averageness.

You seem to feel like simply acknowledging that wasn't a great Giants team is somehow intended to denigrate the SB. It is not and does not. As I said above, in many ways, it makes it more incredible.

But that was then. Looking at what has happened since, it shows what a thin line the Giants have been walking for more than just two seasons now. And that's relevant to a present day discussion. The drop off from '11 SB Winner to where we are currently isn't as dramatic as it seems if you only look at the headlines.

But it is that very '11 circumstance that gives me whatever remaining hope I have left this season. Because, hey. Just about anything is possible.

But it looks bad now. Again. So at this point, discussing the future seems more appropriate than continually talking about the past, especially when the conversation doesn't want to go deeper than 'WE WON!!! END OF!!!!'
RE: Why is it most every team in this league has injuries  
ed90631 : 10/29/2014 6:25 pm : link
In comment 11946536 micky said:
Quote:
and somehow at most times stays it course. The same mantra for a few seasons here has been injuries and it derails this team. Is it injuries or talent or a combo of everything coaching, injuries, talent, etc.

its just been too consistent lately.


Because most teams have depth the Giants simply lack. Too many missed draft choices leave too many holes (including quality back-ups) to fill adequately, hence the mediocre quality of play.

Its not the end of the world, after all you could be a Cubs fan (last WS win:1427 BC) The Giants have been through down cycles before (1964-1980)(1992-1999).

Some reasonable points..  
Big Blue '56 : 10/29/2014 6:35 pm : link
However, it begs the question(in my mind anyway), going into this season, were you disatisfied with the state of the rebuilt OL moving forward? Perhaps you were, I don't recall..I was optimistic(Not in a Kool-aid way) about it's potential with Schwartz, Pugh and Richburg, all young..I thought Beatty would rebound. Still I knew it would take time..Shaun O'Hara and Diehl both felt because of line calls, playing off one another, etc., they were meshing better than expected(obviously Philly was a shitshow)..

Were you unsatisfied with our Secondary re-build? I sure was. Excited in fact..The Linebackers? I wasn't sure one way or the other..

Hankins is a load and JPP seems to be coming along quite nicely(I didn't think he would), Bromley is still to be heard from, but as with LinJo and then Hankins as rookies, I guess we're not to expect all that much from him, at least to date..Love Moore's upside..Kiwi? Meh..Another draft should hopefully fortify there..

Williams at RB looks like the goods, once he learns to block as Jacobs, then Bradshaw did..Jennings has(had) been everything I had hoped for..So now, we're meh at the position..

So we have talent. I expected Eli to rebound with a solid core of WRs in Cruz, OBD(from all that had been reported) and yes, even Randle..TE has been a nice surprise for many..

So yes, I felt we were looking relly good coming into the season albeit I thought and sId it would take time..

Should read I WAS satisfied with the secondary rebuild  
Big Blue '56 : 10/29/2014 6:37 pm : link
.
RE: Coaching?  
Zebra3 : 10/29/2014 7:14 pm : link
In comment 11946667 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
I find it very difficult to believe that there is another coach out there who could do a better job with this group. I am fairly certain that another coach would do much worse.

Coaches can only work with the roster they are given. No one could honestly say that the Giants are a loaded team right now. Granted, there are no great teams in the NFL, but within our own division I think there is a bit of a talent gap. Particularly on offense where the Eagles and Cowboys (outside of QB) have noticeably more talent.

The Giants won the super bowl in '11 with a team that was basically in decline. The '10 Giants were a better squad overall that pissed away the year with an insane number of turnovers and a historic collapse at home. In '11 the Giants peaked at the right time and won a title due to one of the greatest quarterbacking performances of all time. I loved every minute of it but I do not think anyone can truthfully argue that the 2011 Giants were loaded with talent. They had the best QB play in the NFL and an awesome receiving corps. But they did play "over their heads" and a lot of that has to do with coaching. TC does not get enough credit for that.

Late 2012 and the shit show that was 2013 finished the collapse and now the team is rebuilding. Luckily this can happen quickly in the NFL when you have a franchise QB.

In addition Coughlin has many other accomplishments on his resume. Some quick ones are the 11 consecutive road games in 2007 capped off by the ultimate road win in frozen conditions in the NFC title game. Coughlin gets way too little credit for that aspect of the run and I doubt we ever see a road performance streak like that again.

Even last season, which was by far the worst of his tenure, the Giants did not implode and even came one defensive stop away from getting back in the division race. Compare that to the Jets this year who are spiraling out of control and on their way to a brutal season. Heck, the Giants lost only two more games last year than they did during the '11 championship season.

Coughlin is a great coach and there is no reason to believe anyone could do a better job with this group. Sadly, his problem is his age. If the Giants tank this year and decide to go even further into a rebuild. I am sure ownership will ask themselves if he has enough years left to be the guy to lead it.



Bravo
Wow '56  
AnishPatel : 10/29/2014 7:19 pm : link
You were optimist coming to the season. Specifically offense, I didn't think we had enough talent.

OL was me. FA OG didn't know about. Pugh was promising. Rookie is a rookie so not sure what to expect. Snee coming back from injury, but wasn't expecting much. The question was, can he play? If yes, What was the quality of play? Beatty I wasn't a fan of.

I expected the system to help Eli.

WRs, Cruz is in a new system, so you take the success out of it and see how can he do in a system like this. Sure, I liked the potential to get the ball in his hands early so he can run, but still new system. OBJ was a rookie and a hurt one so I didn't expect anything. JJ got hurt but I thought he could do some stuff regarding catching hitched and slants. RR is an inconsistent WR in the old system. So to be fair like we did with Cruz, clean slate. However, not sure how he would do in the WCO offense. It's not like he gets YAC or has elite speed. Inconsistent WR who does flash. So he and Cruz are question marks, but in regards to the two guys in a fresh new system, I'd give the edge to Cruz because he did prove something while RR was inconsistent.

TE.. I didn't expect anything. I still think we could utilize TE more than we have been especially since now Cruz is out for the season.

RB. I liked what Jennings has brought to the table. Very sad to see Wilson retire. I was looking forward in seeing him in this new system specifically the passing game. The other RBs seem to be the same style of play. I wish we had a speed guy who can be change of pace and come out of the backfield and make some plays.

So overall, I didn't think too much of the offensive talent. I did like the system change, and thought Eli could do well in a system like this, if the OL wasn't a shit show. Getting rid of the ball quickly is something I knew would benefit him.

RE: Should read I WAS satisfied with the secondary rebuild  
vibe4giants : 10/29/2014 8:09 pm : link
In comment 11947290 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
.



I was, too. I really thought that would be a strength. Some bad breaks there.

The OL I wasn't optimistic about. And for a few games, I was blown away (I think we all were) by how good they looked. And then, regression, injury, what have you.

In any case, the point remains, there are valid reasons to question some pretty ugly aspects of the last half decade or so, even with the '11 win. The blowouts, shutouts, late season collapses, numerous times when the Giants didn't look like they belonged on the field with their opposition. Are these signs of overall organizational health?

And damning other teams for their consistency just strikes me as odd. Putting yourself in the position to win, consistently, is no bad thing.
I agree with vibe here  
bignygfan : 10/29/2014 10:01 pm : link
We should petition the league to take away our last Lombardi and give it to Tom Brady.
RE: Some reasonable points..  
BrettNYG10 : 10/30/2014 9:47 am : link
In comment 11947288 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
However, it begs the question(in my mind anyway), going into this season, were you disatisfied with the state of the rebuilt OL moving forward? Perhaps you were, I don't recall..I was optimistic(Not in a Kool-aid way) about it's potential with Schwartz, Pugh and Richburg, all young..I thought Beatty would rebound. Still I knew it would take time..Shaun O'Hara and Diehl both felt because of line calls, playing off one another, etc., they were meshing better than expected(obviously Philly was a shitshow)..

Were you unsatisfied with our Secondary re-build? I sure was. Excited in fact..The Linebackers? I wasn't sure one way or the other..

Hankins is a load and JPP seems to be coming along quite nicely(I didn't think he would), Bromley is still to be heard from, but as with LinJo and then Hankins as rookies, I guess we're not to expect all that much from him, at least to date..Love Moore's upside..Kiwi? Meh..Another draft should hopefully fortify there..

Williams at RB looks like the goods, once he learns to block as Jacobs, then Bradshaw did..Jennings has(had) been everything I had hoped for..So now, we're meh at the position..

So we have talent. I expected Eli to rebound with a solid core of WRs in Cruz, OBD(from all that had been reported) and yes, even Randle..TE has been a nice surprise for many..

So yes, I felt we were looking relly good coming into the season albeit I thought and sId it would take time..


All I got from that is that you're pretty much wrong about everything.
The more I think about next year the more I think  
SGMen : 10/30/2014 10:26 am : link
our defense could potentially be pretty bad.

Jenkins and Rolle are past their primes and I'm not so sure they'll be re-signed.

Beason has bad wheels and can't be counted on. I think he'll go to camp healed but will he hold up?

We clearly need a safety or two so we need to address that in UFAgency.

We need J. Bromley to be the goods and produce year #2. He needs a solid off-season in the weight room but he strikes me as a guy that wants it bad so I think he'll work out and hopefully be a solid player.

LB Kennard must be the goods as well and be able to help us blitz. We haven't had solid blitzing linebackers of late and a guy with his size and quickness could really elevate us. He is smart.

So, the bottom line is we need to stay healthy, draft well again, sign solid UFA's (Safety, DT, DE) and hope it all works out.

Otherwise, this defense could be pretty bad again next year. Losing Will Hill to pot; losing W. Thurmond to a torn pectoral; and losing dime back McBride really hurt us this year as we were deep at DB but no longer.

If we go 5-4 and finish 8-8 I'd be happy given our schedule and injuries. If we somehow surprise the Colts on Monday night at home I'll surely jump for JOY!
Losing Will Hill  
oldog : 10/30/2014 10:42 am : link
to sanctimony and stupidity.
And Bashaud Breeland,  
oldog : 10/30/2014 11:21 am : link
the Skins corner who shut down Dez Bryant on Monday, was arrested for possession during training camp but is still playing, I note.
He was cited for misdemeanor possession.  
vibe4giants : 10/30/2014 12:23 pm : link
And it appears it was a first offense.

Which is judged differently from people who do the same stupid shit over and over and over again.

Much like someone who posts something stupid once is judged differently from people who do it repeatedly.
I shouldn't be surprised that so many  
JonC : 10/30/2014 12:28 pm : link
would enable an athlete or be in complete denial in the name of winning football games, but I am.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/30/2014 12:34 pm : link
BTW, some people have pointed to our injury misfortunes, but we've been lucky in terms of who we've played - the Texans were missing one of their two best offensive players, the Cards were missing a plethora of defenders and their starting QB, the Falcons were basically missing their entire OL, and the Cowboys lost their best defensive player before the year even started.
Vibe4  
oldog : 10/30/2014 1:34 pm : link
thank you for your insight.
Will Hill  
oldog : 10/30/2014 1:35 pm : link
was judged and suspended 4, repeat 4, games.
JFC.  
vibe4giants : 10/30/2014 1:47 pm : link
On October 8, 2012, the NFL 1. suspended Hill for using Adderall.

Hill was 2. suspended a second time for the first four games of the 2013 season for violating the NFL's policy on substances of abuse. His ban ended on September 30.

On December 21, 2013, Hill was 3. arrested in New Jersey on a warrant for outstanding child support payments. Despite the arrest, Hill still played that Sunday against the Detroit Lions.

On May 30, 2014, Hill was 4. suspended for the first six games of the 2014 season for violations of the league's substance abuse policy.

On June 2, 2014, Hill was waived by the Giants.



Just how much further do you want to go in terms of a Hill like inability to learn? (There's probably an old/new tricks idea here, but...)
....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/30/2014 1:52 pm : link
Can't believe they cut Hill because Mara doesn't like pot!!!
RE: ....  
vibe4giants : 10/30/2014 2:03 pm : link
In comment 11948417 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Can't believe they cut Hill because Mara doesn't like pot!!!


You know those Richie Rich types. You can bet if Hill had a champagne and caviar problem, they would have worked something out.
RE: ....  
SGMen : 10/30/2014 4:13 pm : link
In comment 11948256 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
BTW, some people have pointed to our injury misfortunes, but we've been lucky in terms of who we've played - the Texans were missing one of their two best offensive players, the Cards were missing a plethora of defenders and their starting QB, the Falcons were basically missing their entire OL, and the Cowboys lost their best defensive player before the year even started.
Sure, every team has injuries. I felt "sick" when we lost to AZ because that was clearly a game we could have won. Turnovers - #1 killer in the NFL and it is the reason we lost along with terrible specials.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/31/2014 10:03 am : link
Right, every team has them and I have a hard time saying we've had worse luck than the team's we've played.

I agree, we really should have beat the Cardinals.
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