for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Kaepernick sits during National Anthem

Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2016 9:27 am
Quote:


The national anthem is and always will be a special part of the pre-game ceremony, the team said in a statement issued to PFT. It is an opportunity to honor our country and reflect on the great liberties we are afforded as its citizens. In respecting such American principles as freedom of religion and freedom of expression, we recognize the right of an individual to choose to participate, or not, in our celebration of the national anthem.

Its unclear why Kaepernick sat. However, Kaepernick retweeted the following message on Thursday, which accompanied images of the American and Confederate flags: The fact that you really believe that there is difference in these flags means that your [sic] ignoring history.

At a time when NFL players are criticized for not speaking out on social issues, Kaepernick has provided a very significant and conspicuous gesture. As the team noted, its his right to do so. But given that Kaepernick opted to make a stand by sitting during the traditional pregame honoring of the country and its flag which is so tightly woven into the DNA of the NFL there surely will be a reaction.


Link - ( New Window )
Seriously...  
2ndroundKO : 8/27/2016 9:31 am : link
Why should we care?
Just putting it out there.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2016 9:32 am : link
You don't have to care about this or anything..😎
There's no difference...  
Klaatu : 8/27/2016 9:35 am : link
Between the American flag and the Confederate flag?

Ummm...yeah...whatever, Kap.
Then maybe he should leave the country  
Shockwave : 8/27/2016 9:35 am : link
...
It makes  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/27/2016 9:37 am : link
me sad how poorly we do as a country conveying the role African Americans had in liberating themselves in the Civil War and how proud those black soldiers were carrying the Stars and Stripes into battle.

Shockwave  
c_dude : 8/27/2016 9:40 am : link
I think it is ok if he stays as long as he never removes his flag pin.
The fact that  
Andy Sky : 8/27/2016 9:41 am : link
The 49ers referenced the 'freedom of religion" in their statement may be a clue about where this is coming from.
RE: Seriously...  
djstat : 8/27/2016 9:42 am : link
In comment 13088438 2ndroundKO said:
Quote:
Why should we care?
Seriously 2ndroundKO why be an asshole?
RE: It makes  
Tuckrule : 8/27/2016 9:44 am : link
In comment 13088444 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
me sad how poorly we do as a country conveying the role African Americans had in liberating themselves in the Civil War and how proud those black soldiers were carrying the Stars and Stripes into battle.


Great point
Maybe he thinks because its preseason  
Jimmy Googs : 8/27/2016 9:47 am : link
its meaningless.

just like BBI...
Sadly this kid doesnt get it.  
bigblue1124 : 8/27/2016 9:50 am : link

As Eric said as well in current times the men and womens lives that have been lost fighting for that flag he obviously has zero knowledge or respect for.
Probably just the beginning.  
Tark10 : 8/27/2016 9:51 am : link
This is what happens if a person spends too much time in California. There are school districts passing out "Pledge Of Allegiance" waivers. If they don't want to stand and recite the pledge, the waiver allows them to sit and stare at their I-phones. Just another sad indication of a country in the decline. Kap just may be suffering from "tattoo poisoning". Here in Houston, the school district has major budget problems. The Board Of Directors decided to close some schools and lay off teachers to save some money. Meanwhile, they have also decided to spend 1.4 million to rename 8 schools because the current names are affiliated with the confederacy. This is what happens when liberals are placed in decision making positions. Its all about political correctness with common sense thrown out the window.
Says the multimillionaire  
bradshaw44 : 8/27/2016 9:51 am : link
...
He's soon to find out  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 8/27/2016 9:58 am : link
that once (if) he can't throw a football accurately any more, nobody cares what he thinks at all. Life can be tough when the high point is when you are 24 years old.
RE: Maybe he thinks because its preseason  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2016 9:59 am : link
In comment 13088456 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
its meaningless.

just like BBI...


Coffee spit!
Sad that he did not honor the flag  
Steve in South Jersey : 8/27/2016 10:07 am : link
but I have absolutely zero interest in players speaking out on social issues. I will never criticize them for keeping their social issue opinions to themselves.

Quote:
NFL players are criticized for not speaking out on social issues

So Tark10 uses this story to get on  
Mr. Bungle : 8/27/2016 10:16 am : link
some silly, unrelated, cartoonish, talk radio political soapbox.

Yay.
I have run into people in my travels  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/27/2016 10:17 am : link
who are still fighting the Civil War. Not just a few, and some in very high positions of power.
He has a right to sit out  
Svengali : 8/27/2016 10:19 am : link
And I have the right to think he's an asshole who has an IQ similar to an ice cube.

Maybe it would have raised somebodies social awareness if he was relevant at all.
Wow  
Vin R : 8/27/2016 10:22 am : link
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media
everyone has a right to an opinion  
bc4life : 8/27/2016 10:23 am : link
but it helps to base it on accurate information
RE: Wow  
fivehead : 8/27/2016 10:27 am : link
In comment 13088482 Vin R said:
Quote:
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media


Maybe he should go block traffic on the freeway instead of making millions playing a game. Some people don't know how good they have it.
RE: everyone has a right to an opinion  
okiegiant : 8/27/2016 10:27 am : link
In comment 13088484 bc4life said:
Quote:
but it helps to base it on accurate information


Bingo.
RE: RE: Seriously...  
BigBlueShock : 8/27/2016 10:27 am : link
In comment 13088449 djstat said:
Quote:
In comment 13088438 2ndroundKO said:


Quote:


Why should we care?

Seriously 2ndroundKO why be an asshole?

I'm guessing it's because 2ndroundKO sides with CK on this...
Career coming  
Fish : 8/27/2016 10:36 am : link
To an end. Let me pull a ryan locte since I'll be irrelevant soon.
..  
Named Later : 8/27/2016 10:45 am : link
"Colin Kaepernick signed a 6 year, $114,000,000 contract with the San Francisco 49ers, including a $12,328,766 signing bonus, $61,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $19,000,000."


So Kap gets to enjoy all the benefits this country offers for hard work and talent, but he wont get off his ass for 3 minutes for our National Anthem ???

I can't wait til he's irrelevant again.
Oh Mr. Bungle...  
Tark10 : 8/27/2016 10:48 am : link
A truly perfect name for you. Perhaps Kap may be setting himself up for a position with the NAACP.
He's all done now..  
Shockwave : 8/27/2016 10:48 am : link
Should have shut up while he had the chance...
I wonder how many people  
joeinpa : 8/27/2016 10:48 am : link
Especially young people, take political stands based on the spin the political parties put out there on the issues, especially during an election year.

Fighting social injustice has always been a just cause and the foundation of our country. But for this young man to buy into the idea that the Confederate flag represents the values behind the Stars and Stripes is just another example of not doing your homework and buying into flawed rhetoric.

I feel badly for the fall out he might receive from this action.
RE: ..  
Bill L : 8/27/2016 10:53 am : link
In comment 13088498 Named Later said:
Quote:
"Colin Kaepernick signed a 6 year, $114,000,000 contract with the San Francisco 49ers, including a $12,328,766 signing bonus, $61,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $19,000,000."


So Kap gets to enjoy all the benefits this country offers for hard work and talent, but he wont get off his ass for 3 minutes for our National Anthem ???

I can't wait til he's irrelevant again.

^^^^^^ Best, if not only, point in the thread and about the incident.
playing devil's advocate here  
oghwga : 8/27/2016 10:53 am : link
but maybe give him credit for taking a position that will make him more unpopular with part of the fan base and trying to stand up for those who he believes have no voice.

Not saying he's a brain scientist or rocket surgeon but it still is a risky move and taking a stand for something is kind of what we salute in this country.
You don't make a political statement  
Dave on the UWS : 8/27/2016 10:54 am : link
(However misguided) by showing disrespect. He's entitled to his viewpoint and also entitled to express it, but not by being disrespectful. He's just being s dumbass. As Erix said the degree to which we don't acknowledge fully what African Americans have gone through in our history and what their contribution was during the Civil War for example is sad. If that is he point he's trying to make it needs to be done much better.
I'm a little surprised that the NFL doesn't have a rule about this  
Bill L : 8/27/2016 10:56 am : link
In that they seem to want to have very tight control over every aspect of presentation at a game. This seems way more noticeable or even notorious than having the wrong colored shoes or a ribbon on the jersey.
police  
gimmeshelter : 8/27/2016 10:56 am : link
Heather MacDonald of the Manhattan Institute
are police racist ? - ( New Window )
Do they still do the pledge in schools?  
Mason : 8/27/2016 11:10 am : link
I always thought singing the National Anthem at sporting events was a little odd since we don't expect to do it at other public events. I understand why it is played during the Olympics that makes sense.

I mean you don't go to concerts, movies, award shows or fashion shows and expect to hear the Anthem. Are there any other instances other than political events or 4th of July celebrations where the Anthem is played other than sporting events? Off the top of my head I can't think of any.

RE: playing devil's advocate here  
Greg from LI : 8/27/2016 11:12 am : link
In comment 13088510 oghwga said:
Quote:
but maybe give him credit for taking a position that will make him more unpopular with part of the fan base and trying to stand up for those who he believes have no voice.

Not saying he's a brain scientist or rocket surgeon but it still is a risky move and taking a stand for something is kind of what we salute in this country.


It's a risky move....in the People's Republic of San Francisco? Are you serious?
RE: You don't make a political statement  
jeff57 : 8/27/2016 11:12 am : link
In comment 13088513 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
(However misguided) by showing disrespect. He's entitled to his viewpoint and also entitled to express it, but not by being disrespectful. He's just being s dumbass. As Erix said the degree to which we don't acknowledge fully what African Americans have gone through in our history and what their contribution was during the Civil War for example is sad. If that is he point he's trying to make it needs to be done much better.


You don't? I guess people who attack politicians and demonstrate with "unfriendly" signs are not making a political statement.
One way tickets to Canada or Mexico $79-$129  
DennyInDenville : 8/27/2016 11:18 am : link
Europe $119-$220

If anyone feels oppressed here in the USA, please leave. Pretty simple
What can be more American than protesting? The problem I have  
baadbill : 8/27/2016 11:19 am : link
with Kaepernick is I don't understand his protest, which sort of defeats the purpose I'd think.
Without getting into the philosophical....  
Crispino : 8/27/2016 11:28 am : link
argument, it just seems pretty short sighted from a practical standpoint. Career on the skids. Who wants an underperforming lightning rod?
Maybe he just doesn't care, or didn't think about how people will react to his stance.
RE: Without getting into the philosophical....  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2016 11:31 am : link
In comment 13088553 Crispino said:
Quote:
argument, it just seems pretty short sighted from a practical standpoint. Career on the skids. Who wants an underperforming lightning rod?
Maybe he just doesn't care, or didn't think about how people will react to his stance.


Otoh, there is that 61 ml guaranteed...😀
I think it took  
Metnut : 8/27/2016 11:37 am : link
real guts to do what he did knowing the heat that he was inevitably going to take afterward.
RE: One way tickets to Canada or Mexico $79-$129  
Old Dirty Beckham : 8/27/2016 11:38 am : link
In comment 13088541 DennyInDenville said:
Quote:
Europe $119-$220

If anyone feels oppressed here in the USA, please leave. Pretty simple


I'm not for Kaps actions but this is the dumbest line of thinking.

So any American who is unhappy with how things are run here should leave? Wouldnt standing up for change be a better option?

Again, I'm not condoning Kaps actions just pointing out how stupid your post is.
RE: One way tickets to Canada or Mexico $79-$129  
Overseer : 8/27/2016 11:44 am : link
In comment 13088541 DennyInDenville said:
Quote:
Europe $119-$220

If anyone feels oppressed here in the USA, please leave. Pretty simple

Kaepernick's misguided petulance aside, your point is that there are no examples of legitimately oppressed Americans?

And that, moreover, rather than trying to change things for the better - as those under the heel have done (or tried to do) since America's inception - they should just leave?

Would that be your advice going back decades pre Civil Right bill, pre Lawrence vs Texas, etc. etc. or do you have a specific cutoff date in mind when feelings of oppression are uniformly invalid?
his tweet:  
ColHowPepper : 8/27/2016 11:49 am : link
Quote:
which accompanied images of the American and Confederate flags: The fact that you really believe that there is difference in these flags means that your [sic] ignoring history.

It's a popular subject this year and made more fraught by the campaign, in ways regrettable and not so he's weighing in. I think it's too crude, too broad a swathe, especially in this environment.

But going back to Eric's point: to my discredit I've never been a careful student of our Civil War. But a few months ago I read Our Man in Charleston which traces the history of the British Consul (officially at times, not so others) in that city. He was an ardent anti-slaver in the pro-slaver crucible prior to Fort Sumter and for most of the war. His chronicle of the plight of slaves, the inhuman characterization and treatment, and the lengths that whites, rich and poor, went to perpetuate the culture here and the trade with Africa (if I recall accurately, on average 70% of each boatload would die during or as a result of the passage) was just jaw-dropping.
RE: Sad that he did not honor the flag  
LAXin : 8/27/2016 11:52 am : link
In comment 13088469 Steve in South Jersey said:

Quote:
NFL players are criticized for not speaking out on social issues


NFL players are criticized for not speak out on social issues, but only if they support the positions approved by those doing the criticizing.
RE: One way tickets to Canada or Mexico $79-$129  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 8/27/2016 11:52 am : link
In comment 13088541 DennyInDenville said:
Quote:
Europe $119-$220

If anyone feels oppressed here in the USA, please leave. Pretty simple


Huh?

I don't agree with what Kapernick did, but it's his right. And if people want to criticize him, that their's right too.
Tark10  
Kivorka : 8/27/2016 11:54 am : link
Fully support your post. You can also add how some high schools are starting later so students can get their rest? Ha ha ha ha ha
RE: I think it took  
Metnut : 8/27/2016 11:55 am : link
In comment 13088565 Metnut said:
Quote:
real guts to do what he did knowing the heat that he was inevitably going to take afterward.


still don't agree with him politically and wouldn't want him on the Giants though
I hope his OL has a different feeling about...  
Todd in MA : 8/27/2016 11:58 am : link
standing for the National Anthem if Kaepernick ever gets to play.
Some of you people take  
Marine One : 8/27/2016 12:06 pm : link
a hell of a lot for granted. Sure, it's a symbol one that has stood the test of time and had the balls to stand up against tyrrany and shit around the world, THAT SYMBOL! The problem with some of you younger guys is you were "educated" by a gathering of leftists who have no regard for country or American exceptionalism. You bitch and complain about the smallest of inconveniences and then disrespect the country that affords you to live with your parents well into adulthood. Try that in El Salvador, Burma, MEXICO! Realize what you have here, you know, that whole Carpe Diem thing? On the topic of the black cause, I played sports scholastically and collegiately with blacks, served with blacks in the Marine Corps and never had one racial incident! In fact, I was looked at as an honorary "brother" of sorts. So, and having said that, Kapernick can kiss my ass and needs to spend more than two weeks in someplace other than the US. This whole disrespect and disregard for the American Symbol is tired and disgusting. When I watch Usain Bolt pay homage to our National Anthem and this wannabe Joe Montana sits there, Fuck Him and all that think it doesn't make a difference. It (the flag) means too much around the world to those that live in repression and squalor and shit in the street. So before you blow it off as some publicity stunt, there is someone, somewhere watching saying, "see, that whole democracy thing doesn't work as well as you think it does" and will do everything thay can to shit on the USA as opposed to in the street! You stomp, burn, rip the flag in front of me and I'm kicking your ass, or die trying and that is not some beer muscles, or cyber gym workout talking here. You get paid millions per year to play a game (marginally at that) you stand the hell up, or sit permanently! Which in Kapernick's case is not too long down the road!
Dude doesn't seem to have a problem  
B in ALB : 8/27/2016 12:07 pm : link
taking millions of American dollars though.
.  
Anakim : 8/27/2016 12:08 pm : link
Justin Pugh ‏@JustinPugh
I will be STANDING during the National Anthem tonight. Thank you to ALL (Gender,Race,Religion)that put your lives on the line for that flag
CK7 also stated that  
LAXin : 8/27/2016 12:14 pm : link
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color."

I always ask someone who holds such a view of white-oppression: then why do Asians in this country -- not just a selective few at the top, but on average as an ethnic group of tens of millions -- somehow achieve higher education, lower crime rate, and higher income than even the whites, who are supposedly doing all these terrible oppressions from the top?

Are Asian people not color enough to be oppressed by the whites? Or did the white ruling class just somehow forgot to oppress this particular ethnic group? Or is the whites' oppression against the Asians so damn sophisticated and well-hidden that it already goes beyond and deeper than the trivial and mundane stuffs like education, income, and incarceration rate?
RE: Some of you people take  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 8/27/2016 12:15 pm : link
In comment 13088586 Marine One said:
Quote:
a hell of a lot for granted. Sure, it's a symbol one that has stood the test of time and had the balls to stand up against tyrrany and shit around the world, THAT SYMBOL! The problem with some of you younger guys is you were "educated" by a gathering of leftists who have no regard for country or American exceptionalism. You bitch and complain about the smallest of inconveniences and then disrespect the country that affords you to live with your parents well into adulthood. Try that in El Salvador, Burma, MEXICO! Realize what you have here, you know, that whole Carpe Diem thing? On the topic of the black cause, I played sports scholastically and collegiately with blacks, served with blacks in the Marine Corps and never had one racial incident! In fact, I was looked at as an honorary "brother" of sorts. So, and having said that, Kapernick can kiss my ass and needs to spend more than two weeks in someplace other than the US. This whole disrespect and disregard for the American Symbol is tired and disgusting. When I watch Usain Bolt pay homage to our National Anthem and this wannabe Joe Montana sits there, Fuck Him and all that think it doesn't make a difference. It (the flag) means too much around the world to those that live in repression and squalor and shit in the street. So before you blow it off as some publicity stunt, there is someone, somewhere watching saying, "see, that whole democracy thing doesn't work as well as you think it does" and will do everything thay can to shit on the USA as opposed to in the street! You stomp, burn, rip the flag in front of me and I'm kicking your ass, or die trying and that is not some beer muscles, or cyber gym workout talking here. You get paid millions per year to play a game (marginally at that) you stand the hell up, or sit permanently! Which in Kapernick's case is not too long down the road!


Jesus Christ.
RE: Dude doesn't seem to have a problem  
Joe in Cambridge : 8/27/2016 12:26 pm : link
In comment 13088587 B in ALB said:
Quote:
taking millions of American dollars though.
Why should he? Protesting is just about the most American thing a person can do.
He may have the right to sit  
njm : 8/27/2016 12:29 pm : link
But I have the right to say he doesn't know jack shit about US history. The armies of one of those flags suffered close to 600,000 casualties (killed, wounded, missing) , the majority of them suffered after the Emancipation Proclamation, fighting against slavery.
There have been online rumors  
Andy Sky : 8/27/2016 12:37 pm : link
About Kap and his girlfriend for months now that might put his actions into a little more contex. This reminds me of another high profile athlete who created a stir when he refused to stand for the anthem. I wonder if a name change is coming soon .
RE: Sadly this kid doesnt get it.  
Giants2012 : 8/27/2016 12:40 pm : link
In comment 13088458 bigblue1124 said:
Quote:

As Eric said as well in current times the men and womens lives that have been lost fighting for that flag he obviously has zero knowledge or respect for.


+1
RE: CK7 also stated that  
giantsfan44ab : 8/27/2016 12:42 pm : link
In comment 13088593 LAXin said:
Quote:
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color."

I always ask someone who holds such a view of white-oppression: then why do Asians in this country -- not just a selective few at the top, but on average as an ethnic group of tens of millions -- somehow achieve higher education, lower crime rate, and higher income than even the whites, who are supposedly doing all these terrible oppressions from the top?

Are Asian people not color enough to be oppressed by the whites? Or did the white ruling class just somehow forgot to oppress this particular ethnic group? Or is the whites' oppression against the Asians so damn sophisticated and well-hidden that it already goes beyond and deeper than the trivial and mundane stuffs like education, income, and incarceration rate?


I think it's a result of the socioeconomic divide than race. I'm sure if you separated the violence stats based on personal income rather than simply race the data would look much worse. All these shootings recently (some horrible, some blown out of proportion) haven't exactly been occurring with rich folk.

There may very well be certain underlying causes that link educational/economic opportunity with race, which I believe is the root cause of the problem. But I don't think the police are race-targeting civilians on the streets. There's a bigger issue that's causing this and pointing fingers at the police/government for being racist is just childish.
CHP,  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2016 12:42 pm : link
"Our man in Charleston" sounds fascinating, just downloaded it onto my Kindle (via Amazon)..Thanks for the heads up
Considering the racial and social divide  
B in ALB : 8/27/2016 12:46 pm : link
Plaguing this country right now, was this really necessary? How about conveying a message of change in a positive context rather than sit there like a spoiled, entitled, and ungrateful child?
.......  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 8/27/2016 12:47 pm : link
He's just trying to get more sittin on the bench reps because he's certainly playing himself there
RE: Probably just the beginning.  
Sonic Youth : 8/27/2016 12:53 pm : link
In comment 13088460 Tark10 said:
Quote:
This is what happens if a person spends too much time in California. There are school districts passing out "Pledge Of Allegiance" waivers. If they don't want to stand and recite the pledge, the waiver allows them to sit and stare at their I-phones. Just another sad indication of a country in the decline. Kap just may be suffering from "tattoo poisoning". Here in Houston, the school district has major budget problems. The Board Of Directors decided to close some schools and lay off teachers to save some money. Meanwhile, they have also decided to spend 1.4 million to rename 8 schools because the current names are affiliated with the confederacy. This is what happens when liberals are placed in decision making positions. Its all about political correctness with common sense thrown out the window.
Hahahahahah what a fucking load of horseshit. You should be ashamed for writing this pointless, partisan, bullshit drivel
RE: One way tickets to Canada or Mexico $79-$129  
Sonic Youth : 8/27/2016 12:55 pm : link
In comment 13088541 DennyInDenville said:
Quote:
Europe $119-$220

If anyone feels oppressed here in the USA, please leave. Pretty simple
Not really. People want to make their homes better places for everyone. Pretty simple.

Though re: Kap, I get where you're coming from. But that statement does not apply to everyone.
Bottom line  
Carl in CT : 8/27/2016 12:57 pm : link
A fucking piece of shit!
and yes  
Sonic Youth : 8/27/2016 12:59 pm : link
what Kap did was stupid, but I think some of the reactions to it are also kinda crazy.

Kap is a dumbass, this doesn't really surprise me
That was some rant by Marine One  
Overseer : 8/27/2016 12:59 pm : link
When you say Kaepernick needs to spend more than two weeks in someplace other than the US, would you suggest like New Zealand or Canada or Norway? Would "roughing it" in those countries engender the requisite level of appreciation you believe America deserves?

A 64 American male would no doubt have a rooooough time in South Korea (and by that I mean his penis would be so rough from the endless sex he's having with fawning young women).

Really you can embody and proclaim an appreciation for America minus the over the top rah-rahing, complete with the inclusion of trivializing the virtues of the rest of the advanced world. Its just embarrassing.
And, indeed, Tarks post was a trainwreck.  
Overseer : 8/27/2016 12:59 pm : link
.
If I'm the owner after that statement  
Carl in CT : 8/27/2016 1:00 pm : link
He doesn't make the first cut. Don't need garbage like that on my team. I'd rather him be a drug addict, wife beater etc than to dishonor the American Flag!
RE: If I'm the owner after that statement  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2016 1:03 pm : link
In comment 13088631 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
He doesn't make the first cut. Don't need garbage like that on my team. I'd rather him be a drug addict, wife beater etc than to dishonor the American Flag!


Wife beater? Really?
JMO  
Bleedin Blue : 8/27/2016 1:05 pm : link
but this Country has a lot of warts as does any of our families. We are not perfect, we have a lot of wrongs to right, but when I see that Flag I'm reminded that there isn't anywhere else I'd rather be. I know I have the right to disagree with my government and say so. Maybe KP should understand that Flag is the very symbol of why he has the right to his opinion and be a bit more respectful to what it is actually a symbol of! It's not a symbol of oppression, that is very far from the truth! for if it was he'd be in a gulag right now!
Well, his actions do make him relevant again,  
MOOPS : 8/27/2016 1:16 pm : link
at least temporarily.
Hope he invested his US dollars well, because after this year he'll be working for scale, if at all.
Amazing to me how Americans, who supposedly understand  
baadbill : 8/27/2016 1:27 pm : link
their freedoms, get all worked up over someone sitting during the national anthem. Burning the flag - sitting during the national anthem - are two of the most patriotic things I can think of. What other country in the world would allow that? Would honor that?

I can't think of a group more revolting than the KKK. Yet I would protest vigorously for the right of the KKK to march publicly down every street in America. I'd do that because that is what makes my country great. It is only when we silence the rights of others to protest that we better start worrying about our democracy. Because your voice is likely to be the next one silenced.
I know a lot of you say you admire and respect Muhammad Ali  
David in LA : 8/27/2016 1:38 pm : link
I'm not so certain some of you would have respected the Young Muhammad Ali in this day and age.
==========  
GiantFilthy : 8/27/2016 1:40 pm : link
Quote:
Probably just the beginning.
Tark10 : 9:51 am : link : reply
This is what happens if a person spends too much time in California. There are school districts passing out "Pledge Of Allegiance" waivers. If they don't want to stand and recite the pledge, the waiver allows them to sit and stare at their I-phones. Just another sad indication of a country in the decline. Kap just may be suffering from "tattoo poisoning". Here in Houston, the school district has major budget problems. The Board Of Directors decided to close some schools and lay off teachers to save some money. Meanwhile, they have also decided to spend 1.4 million to rename 8 schools because the current names are affiliated with the confederacy. This is what happens when liberals are placed in decision making positions. Its all about political correctness with common sense thrown out the window.

Shitting in my own mouth would be more enjoyable than reading more of your posts.

Quote:
Some of you people take
Marine One : 12:06 pm : link : reply
a hell of a lot for granted. Sure, it's a symbol one that has stood the test of time and had the balls to stand up against tyrrany and shit around the world, THAT SYMBOL! The problem with some of you younger guys is you were "educated" by a gathering of leftists who have no regard for country or American exceptionalism. You bitch and complain about the smallest of inconveniences and then disrespect the country that affords you to live with your parents well into adulthood. Try that in El Salvador, Burma, MEXICO! Realize what you have here, you know, that whole Carpe Diem thing? On the topic of the black cause, I played sports scholastically and collegiately with blacks, served with blacks in the Marine Corps and never had one racial incident! In fact, I was looked at as an honorary "brother" of sorts. So, and having said that, Kapernick can kiss my ass and needs to spend more than two weeks in someplace other than the US. This whole disrespect and disregard for the American Symbol is tired and disgusting. When I watch Usain Bolt pay homage to our National Anthem and this wannabe Joe Montana sits there, Fuck Him and all that think it doesn't make a difference. It (the flag) means too much around the world to those that live in repression and squalor and shit in the street. So before you blow it off as some publicity stunt, there is someone, somewhere watching saying, "see, that whole democracy thing doesn't work as well as you think it does" and will do everything thay can to shit on the USA as opposed to in the street! You stomp, burn, rip the flag in front of me and I'm kicking your ass, or die trying and that is not some beer muscles, or cyber gym workout talking here. You get paid millions per year to play a game (marginally at that) you stand the hell up, or sit permanently! Which in Kapernick's case is not too long down the road!

I fought for your right to protest. RESPECT ME. Also if you protest in front of me I'm going to try and physically harm you. -Marine One

Quote:
If I'm the owner after that statement
Carl in CT : 1:00 pm : link : reply
He doesn't make the first cut. Don't need garbage like that on my team. I'd rather him be a drug addict, wife beater etc than to dishonor the American Flag!

Much rather have women get a beating than see someone unhappy with how things are in this country? Patriotism is fucking weird, man.
Never Liked Him from Day One ...  
Bluesbreaker : 8/27/2016 1:40 pm : link
Actually he is actually in the Cam Newton category for me .
If anyone is using Roids or whatever it has to be him .
Can Remember him early in his career when he took over
for Alex Smith he is such a friggen jack ass and I hope
he gets decleated every time he touches the FootBall .
It Takes some kind of an asshole not to show common
curtisy during National Anthem .
No matter what his or anyones beliefs are he is a classless
asswipe ..
RE: If I'm the owner after that statement  
David in LA : 8/27/2016 1:41 pm : link
In comment 13088631 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
He doesn't make the first cut. Don't need garbage like that on my team. I'd rather him be a drug addict, wife beater etc than to dishonor the American Flag!


Obviously you're not smart enough to be in that type of position in the first place.
As an American he is free to express his opinion in any way  
BurlyMan : 8/27/2016 1:41 pm : link
that doesn't bring harm to others and that's what makes this country great. There isn't going to be a knock on his door tonight or unmarked cars following him in the streets. If he wants to sit while others stand. Fine with me.

As a veteran it bothers me what game day patriots make a big stink out of the national anthem not by singing along or reflecting on what makes this nation what it is but hassling others to get up, take off your hat, take out your earbuds, put down your phone, etc. Hearing the national anthem is important to me. It may not be to you. Fine. I think playing God Bless America at ballgames is a crock of shit. You may not feel the same way. Fine with me.

But NFL is a money game and the money masters aren't going to like this. And it always saddens me when issues like this come up and the vast majority of fans unreflectively side with the people with all the power and all of the money.

I disagree with most of the posts on this thread  
Capt. Don : 8/27/2016 1:42 pm : link
but that doesnt mean I am siding with CK.

A few points:

If I am unhappy with something in our society, I should just move to another country and live the life least resistance, rather than try to change it?

Ridiculous. Using that logic, no one should complain about anything. No push to improve anything at all. Just move to another country and shut up. What if MLK, Medgar Evers, Rosa Parks etc had done that?

If I am unhappy with something in our society but also make lots of money in that same society, I should keep my mouth shut.

It is oftentimes wealthy people that have the time, resources, security and platform to make a stand publicly. Just because he makes lots of money in the society that he is displeased with does not make him a hypocrite. It is not like he is making money off racial bias and oppression. That would be hypocritical. Making lots of money should not preclude someone from protesting and exercising their rights.

Not standing during the national anthem in protest is an affront to those who have served.

He is not protesting those who have served. He is utilizing a right that they fought and died to give him. Protesting is one of the most liberating, American things you can do.

Because people of color have proudly served this country since The Revolution and including the Civil War, he is uneducated and is disrespectful to them and their memory.

I feel comfortable saying that every minority in history has proudly fought for our country. So using that logic no one can protest using our national symbols without being deemed uneducated and disrespectful to those minorities who proudly served.

What if a Native American protested the United States stance on several land disputes? What if they refused to stand for the National Anthem? Are they uneducated because of the invaluable and proud service of the code talkers in WWII?

I think this is a pretty ineffective way for CK to go about it and I would be interested to know what he is doing behind the scenes to help this cause and ultimately
I do not think it will inspire the change he is looking for. That said, I do not think he is a bad guy for exercising his rights as an American.

Lmao Filthy just knocking them out of the park!  
David in LA : 8/27/2016 1:42 pm : link
.
Good for Kap  
Rob in CT/NYC : 8/27/2016 1:45 pm : link
Or not - I think the basis of his protest is more than a little silly, but if he is willing to accept the consequences of his protest in an effort to effect positive change, reasonable disagreement over where this country is and how it should proceed is fine.
That'll show 'em!  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/27/2016 1:46 pm : link
Too bad he's sucked in recent years.
RE: Amazing to me how Americans, who supposedly understand  
Jimmy Googs : 8/27/2016 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13088645 baadbill said:
Quote:
their freedoms, get all worked up over someone sitting during the national anthem. Burning the flag - sitting during the national anthem - are two of the most patriotic things I can think of. What other country in the world would allow that? Would honor that?

I can't think of a group more revolting than the KKK. Yet I would protest vigorously for the right of the KKK to march publicly down every street in America. I'd do that because that is what makes my country great. It is only when we silence the rights of others to protest that we better start worrying about our democracy. Because your voice is likely to be the next one silenced.


While I get your point, I would hope you can find just a few more patriotic things to do than burn a flag or sit your ass during the anthem...
Actually, it does make him a hypocrite  
Bill L : 8/27/2016 1:48 pm : link
It's just that he has the absolute right to be one.
I've got no problem with doing this to draw attention  
chris r : 8/27/2016 1:51 pm : link
to an issue where you think the US is in the wrong. Say for example Guantanamo.

But this is just so poorly thought out and articulated it's hard to take as anything more than juvenile insolence.
RE: Actually, it does make him a hypocrite  
Capt. Don : 8/27/2016 1:53 pm : link
In comment 13088677 Bill L said:
Quote:
It's just that he has the absolute right to be one.


I don't think hypocrite means what you think it means.
I just like the opposing logic that I've seen across many sites  
David in LA : 8/27/2016 1:54 pm : link
I've seen people suggest Kaep leave "their" country, while this country was stolen from natives. 🤔
RE: RE: Amazing to me how Americans, who supposedly understand  
baadbill : 8/27/2016 1:54 pm : link
In comment 13088673 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13088645 baadbill said:


Quote:


their freedoms, get all worked up over someone sitting during the national anthem. Burning the flag - sitting during the national anthem - are two of the most patriotic things I can think of. What other country in the world would allow that? Would honor that?

I can't think of a group more revolting than the KKK. Yet I would protest vigorously for the right of the KKK to march publicly down every street in America. I'd do that because that is what makes my country great. It is only when we silence the rights of others to protest that we better start worrying about our democracy. Because your voice is likely to be the next one silenced.



While I get your point, I would hope you can find just a few more patriotic things to do than burn a flag or sit your ass during the anthem...


Actually, I honestly can't think of anything more patriotic than to hand him the flag and a match to burn it - while at the same time disputing whatever it is he's protesting.

It's pretty ironic that the ones who get most worked up about "respecting" America and her symbols are really not much different than the fanatic fringe who kill people for making fun of the Koran. Freedom and tolerance are what make this country great. It's when either one is threatened that I'll begin to worry.
Do I agree with Kap? No  
dpinzow : 8/27/2016 1:57 pm : link
Do I agree with his right to protest in this manner? Yes, he has the 1st amendment right
RE: I know a lot of you say you admire and respect Muhammad Ali  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2016 1:58 pm : link
In comment 13088653 David in LA said:
Quote:
I'm not so certain some of you would have respected the Young Muhammad Ali in this day and age.


100% supported Ali back in the day..One of the very few sport's idols in my life
RE: RE: Actually, it does make him a hypocrite  
Bill L : 8/27/2016 1:58 pm : link
In comment 13088687 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
In comment 13088677 Bill L said:


Quote:


It's just that he has the absolute right to be one.



I don't think hypocrite means what you think it means.
hes not protesting an issue; it's a rejection of the country through its symbols. So yeah, glomming its benefits is hypocritical.

But he's still free to be one. He's sheltered and nurtured by the country, and still allowed to behave as he wishes.
Well, I think we have the plot for an upcoming episode of....  
MOOPS : 8/27/2016 2:00 pm : link
'Blackish'.
A 90-second sit down protest...far too easy. A flag and a match  
Jimmy Googs : 8/27/2016 2:02 pm : link
will be over and done too quick as well.

How about Kap grabs a gun and stands a post somewhere. I would think that would be more patriotic Bill...
Good statement from the Niners  
jeff57 : 8/27/2016 2:02 pm : link
.
Kap will be sitting alot  
averagejoe : 8/27/2016 2:03 pm : link
Because it is very hard to watch him try to play QB. Defensive coordinators in the NFL are evil oppressors that have denied CK the chance to succeed because of his color. Whatever color that is.

He is no brighter off the field than he is on. He needs to visit a library.
RE: Well, I think we have the plot for an upcoming episode of....  
David in LA : 8/27/2016 2:05 pm : link
In comment 13088699 MOOPS said:
Quote:
'Blackish'.


That's an awful joke, come on.
I see no problem with him protesting  
moespree : 8/27/2016 2:06 pm : link
.
I'd have far more respect  
dep026 : 8/27/2016 2:11 pm : link
if he didnt take the 17 million dollars that this country pays him a year out of protest.
RE: I see no problem with him protesting  
Greg from LI : 8/27/2016 2:12 pm : link
In comment 13088713 moespree said:
Quote:
.


Leftist agrees with leftist, film at 11
RE: A 90-second sit down protest...far too easy. A flag and a match  
baadbill : 8/27/2016 2:14 pm : link
In comment 13088702 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
will be over and done too quick as well.

How about Kap grabs a gun and stands a post somewhere. I would think that would be more patriotic Bill...


Jimmy, I usually agree with virtually all of your posts. But I have to disagree regarding my views on what differentiates America from the majority of the rest of the world. The right to hold views - and take positions - others might find abhorrent. It is what separates us from police states. In my mind, it is the single most important feature that makes America the great country she is.
RE: RE: Well, I think we have the plot for an upcoming episode of....  
MOOPS : 8/27/2016 2:17 pm : link
In comment 13088710 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13088699 MOOPS said:


Quote:


'Blackish'.



That's an awful joke, come on.



Why do you think I'm joking?
You don't watch the show?
RE: RE: Well, I think we have the plot for an upcoming episode of....  
pjcas18 : 8/27/2016 2:17 pm : link
In comment 13088710 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13088699 MOOPS said:


Quote:


'Blackish'.



That's an awful joke, come on.


I think he's being serious. Do you watch the show, they sometimes take current event social issues and incorporate them into the comedy, very well done in some cases.
The old Gunny is with you Marine One!  
GeorgeFox : 8/27/2016 2:17 pm : link
If you disrespect the flag that so many brave men and women defended and died for than you and I will have a confrontation.

RE: Amazing to me how Americans, who supposedly understand  
Reb8thVA : 8/27/2016 2:19 pm : link
In comment 13088645 baadbill said:
Quote:
their freedoms, get all worked up over someone sitting during the national anthem. Burning the flag - sitting during the national anthem - are two of the most patriotic things I can think of. What other country in the world would allow that? Would honor that?

I can't think of a group more revolting than the KKK. Yet I would protest vigorously for the right of the KKK to march publicly down every street in America. I'd do that because that is what makes my country great. It is only when we silence the rights of others to protest that we better start worrying about our democracy. Because your voice is likely to be the next one silenced.


+1

I have absolutely no problem with what KP did
Jimmy  
baadbill : 8/27/2016 2:19 pm : link
I just read our posts again. I probably wasn't being clear. I don't consider the act of burning the flag (or sitting during the national anthem) patriotic. What is patriotic is those of us who will stand up for Kaepernick' right to do so (i.e. the act of handing him the flag to burn). HE isn't being patriotic - the person disagreeing with him but at the same time handing him the flag to burn is the true patriot.
RE: RE: I see no problem with him protesting  
moespree : 8/27/2016 2:20 pm : link
In comment 13088724 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13088713 moespree said:


Quote:


.



Leftist agrees with leftist, film at 11


Did I say I agreed with him? I said I see no problem with protesting. And I don't. He's allowed to do it. Whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not. I don't appreciate you putting what you think I am or am not on me.
RE: The old Gunny is with you Marine One!  
Capt. Don : 8/27/2016 2:21 pm : link
In comment 13088735 GeorgeFox said:
Quote:
If you disrespect the flag that so many brave men and women defended and died for than you and I will have a confrontation.


If you think people died for a flag rather than the rights and freedoms that it represents, that is called irony.
RE: RE: A 90-second sit down protest...far too easy. A flag and a match  
Jimmy Googs : 8/27/2016 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13088726 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13088702 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


will be over and done too quick as well.

How about Kap grabs a gun and stands a post somewhere. I would think that would be more patriotic Bill...



Jimmy, I usually agree with virtually all of your posts. But I have to disagree regarding my views on what differentiates America from the majority of the rest of the world. The right to hold views - and take positions - others might find abhorrent. It is what separates us from police states. In my mind, it is the single most important feature that makes America the great country she is.


I agree that our right to protest is a incredibly important right. No debate from me as you and are aligned on that.

I just find it easy to find the "fake in the crowd" who prefers simple grandstanding gestures to be a protest versus a the guy who is willing to meaningfully stand by what he believes.

Appreciate your candor...
RE: RE: RE: Well, I think we have the plot for an upcoming episode of....  
David in LA : 8/27/2016 2:28 pm : link
In comment 13088733 MOOPS said:
Quote:
In comment 13088710 David in LA said:


Quote:


In comment 13088699 MOOPS said:


Quote:


'Blackish'.



That's an awful joke, come on.




Why do you think I'm joking?
You don't watch the show?


I've seen a few episodes, but I don't watch network tv much anymore. Just seemed to be a bit tongue and cheekish of a comment.

RE: RE: I see no problem with him protesting  
jeff57 : 8/27/2016 2:31 pm : link
In comment 13088724 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13088713 moespree said:


Quote:


.



Leftist agrees with leftist, film at 11

Political correctness hypocrisy. Not breaking.
I love this country's values as stated in the Constitution and Bill  
yatqb : 8/27/2016 2:32 pm : link
of Rights as much as anyone. But during the Vietnam War, I was a protester against it, and standing up for the National Anthem felt to me like expressing acceptance for that war. So I might well have not stood up for the Anthem at that time. Not addressing Kap specifically, but you can make a statement about a particular issue without rejecting the values the Constitution espouses.
I guess everyone views things their own views  
pjcas18 : 8/27/2016 2:44 pm : link
but I view the National Anthem and the flag not as support for the police or the government, but for the soldiers who have sacrificed their lives to provide the freedoms and liberty we all enjoy today.

I view disrespecting the flag and/or the National Anthem as not protesting actions or policies the government or police or even the justice system, but disrespectful to the men and women in uniform.

If that's your goal (colloquially your), I don't get it.

I just find it so conflicted the NFL allows protests like "Hands up Don't Shoot" for the Rams, Beyonce at the SB, they don't require you to stand for the National Anthem which is a protest I guess in Kaepernick's case against the police, but you want to put a decal on your helmet with the arm and arm logo for the citizens and police in Dallas - they reject it.

Sounds like they limit free speech when it's not consistent with their goals.
Hey Marine One  
Kivorka : 8/27/2016 2:50 pm : link
From a retired Colonel.....semper fi brother!!
RE: I guess everyone views things their own views  
jeff57 : 8/27/2016 2:50 pm : link
In comment 13088781 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
but I view the National Anthem and the flag not as support for the police or the government, but for the soldiers who have sacrificed their lives to provide the freedoms and liberty we all enjoy today.

I view disrespecting the flag and/or the National Anthem as not protesting actions or policies the government or police or even the justice system, but disrespectful to the men and women in uniform.

If that's your goal (colloquially your), I don't get it.

I just find it so conflicted the NFL allows protests like "Hands up Don't Shoot" for the Rams, Beyonce at the SB, they don't require you to stand for the National Anthem which is a protest I guess in Kaepernick's case against the police, but you want to put a decal on your helmet with the arm and arm logo for the citizens and police in Dallas - they reject it.

Sounds like they limit free speech when it's not consistent with their goals.


The only one who's required to do anything in your examples is the person being forced to stand up.

To me, the national anthem is supposed to represent what this country stands for. It's spirit. That is not only the military.
RE: RE: I guess everyone views things their own views  
pjcas18 : 8/27/2016 2:55 pm : link
In comment 13088802 jeff57 said:
Quote:
In comment 13088781 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


but I view the National Anthem and the flag not as support for the police or the government, but for the soldiers who have sacrificed their lives to provide the freedoms and liberty we all enjoy today.

I view disrespecting the flag and/or the National Anthem as not protesting actions or policies the government or police or even the justice system, but disrespectful to the men and women in uniform.

If that's your goal (colloquially your), I don't get it.

I just find it so conflicted the NFL allows protests like "Hands up Don't Shoot" for the Rams, Beyonce at the SB, they don't require you to stand for the National Anthem which is a protest I guess in Kaepernick's case against the police, but you want to put a decal on your helmet with the arm and arm logo for the citizens and police in Dallas - they reject it.

Sounds like they limit free speech when it's not consistent with their goals.



The only one who's required to do anything in your examples is the person being forced to stand up.

To me, the national anthem is supposed to represent what this country stands for. It's spirit. That is not only the military.


Required yes. No one is required to show respect.

Did you ever go to a sporting event "Please stand up and remove your hats for the singing of the National Anthem"

Almost everyone does. but when a person on a pulpit doesn't it's meaningful. to me.

but I do respect his choice, I just find his reasoning suspect. And yes, hypocritical.
I don't like what he did one bit  
steve in ky : 8/27/2016 2:58 pm : link
but it is his right to do it.

What I don't want to ever hear from him is a complaint one day how he is losing out on something because of backlash to his actions. He believes in it enough to do it then own it and every negative that comes a along with it. When he misses out on some endorsement or gets cut as soon as his skills hint at diminishing don't cry about it.

RE: I guess everyone views things their own views  
baadbill : 8/27/2016 3:01 pm : link
In comment 13088781 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
but I view the National Anthem and the flag not as support for the police or the government, but for the soldiers who have sacrificed their lives to provide the freedoms and liberty we all enjoy today.

I view disrespecting the flag and/or the National Anthem as not protesting actions or policies the government or police or even the justice system, but disrespectful to the men and women in uniform.


I don't associate the American flag or national anthem with soldiers unless it is the Revolutionary War. But, if I did associate those symbols with soldiers dying to protect those freedoms, then my protecting those freedoms is the greatest way I can think of to honor those who died for those very freedoms.

And my point is that I can't think of a greater way to illustrate the freedom of America than for American's to stand up for the rights of protesters to protest (and especially to stand up for protesters who espouse something we may not agree with). It isn't the protester who is necessarily being patriotic.

A group of Nazis marching down main street in a small Illinois town isn't something most Americans would agree with or favor. Certainly the Nazis aren't being patriotic. But get a few hundred Americans to protest for the rights of the Nazis to march - or for them to burn the flag - all the while hating Nazis - now THAT is being patriotic - and would be a great honor to those who sacrificed their lives to protect those rights.
RE: I don't like what he did one bit  
pjcas18 : 8/27/2016 3:03 pm : link
In comment 13088830 steve in ky said:
Quote:
but it is his right to do it.

What I don't want to ever hear from him is a complaint one day how he is losing out on something because of backlash to his actions. He believes in it enough to do it then own it and every negative that comes a along with it. When he misses out on some endorsement or gets cut as soon as his skills hint at diminishing don't cry about it.


he already said if he loses his NFL career or endorsements over it then he knows he was right.

I think NFL endorsements should be more about on-field and marketability so he should lose endorsements as a backup QB, but he's set it up now to make it about race.
RE: If I'm the owner after that statement  
David in LA : 8/27/2016 3:04 pm : link
In comment 13088631 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
He doesn't make the first cut. Don't need garbage like that on my team. I'd rather him be a drug addict, wife beater etc than to dishonor the American Flag!


Im going to periodically repost this gem, until something even dumber comes up on this thread.
RE: RE: I don't like what he did one bit  
David in LA : 8/27/2016 3:06 pm : link
In comment 13088846 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13088830 steve in ky said:


Quote:


but it is his right to do it.

What I don't want to ever hear from him is a complaint one day how he is losing out on something because of backlash to his actions. He believes in it enough to do it then own it and every negative that comes a along with it. When he misses out on some endorsement or gets cut as soon as his skills hint at diminishing don't cry about it.




he already said if he loses his NFL career or endorsements over it then he knows he was right.

I think NFL endorsements should be more about on-field and marketability so he should lose endorsements as a backup QB, but he's set it up now to make it about race.


You think endorsements should be more about on-field and marketability, but marketability also encompasses off the field. Seems like this topic has you really fired up.
RE: RE: I guess everyone views things their own views  
pjcas18 : 8/27/2016 3:07 pm : link
In comment 13088837 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13088781 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


but I view the National Anthem and the flag not as support for the police or the government, but for the soldiers who have sacrificed their lives to provide the freedoms and liberty we all enjoy today.

I view disrespecting the flag and/or the National Anthem as not protesting actions or policies the government or police or even the justice system, but disrespectful to the men and women in uniform.




I don't associate the American flag or national anthem with soldiers unless it is the Revolutionary War. But, if I did associate those symbols with soldiers dying to protect those freedoms, then my protecting those freedoms is the greatest way I can think of to honor those who died for those very freedoms.

And my point is that I can't think of a greater way to illustrate the freedom of America than for American's to stand up for the rights of protesters to protest (and especially to stand up for protesters who espouse something we may not agree with). It isn't the protester who is necessarily being patriotic.

A group of Nazis marching down main street in a small Illinois town isn't something most Americans would agree with or favor. Certainly the Nazis aren't being patriotic. But get a few hundred Americans to protest for the rights of the Nazis to march - or for them to burn the flag - all the while hating Nazis - now THAT is being patriotic - and would be a great honor to those who sacrificed their lives to protect those rights.


I agree with you almost completely other than the flag, but that's just my personal opinion.

but there's no better example of this than Westboro Baptist Church or other hate groups protesting military funerals and then bikers or veterans blocking out the protests of the Westboro Baptist Church so families can bury their deceased in privacy.

First Amendment in action.
RE: RE: RE: I don't like what he did one bit  
pjcas18 : 8/27/2016 3:08 pm : link
In comment 13088854 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13088846 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13088830 steve in ky said:


Quote:


but it is his right to do it.

What I don't want to ever hear from him is a complaint one day how he is losing out on something because of backlash to his actions. He believes in it enough to do it then own it and every negative that comes a along with it. When he misses out on some endorsement or gets cut as soon as his skills hint at diminishing don't cry about it.




he already said if he loses his NFL career or endorsements over it then he knows he was right.

I think NFL endorsements should be more about on-field and marketability so he should lose endorsements as a backup QB, but he's set it up now to make it about race.



You think endorsements should be more about on-field and marketability, but marketability also encompasses off the field. Seems like this topic has you really fired up.


Not fire up, but bored. Any time you make yourself controversial, you impact your marketability. Not sure how that's contrary to what I said.

if you're good enough on-field (like Peyton Manning or LT) your off-field issues don't impact your marketability as much.
RE: You don't make a political statement  
BMac : 8/27/2016 3:11 pm : link
In comment 13088513 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
(However misguided) by showing disrespect. He's entitled to his viewpoint and also entitled to express it, but not by being disrespectful. He's just being s dumbass. As Erix said the degree to which we don't acknowledge fully what African Americans have gone through in our history and what their contribution was during the Civil War for example is sad. If that is he point he's trying to make it needs to be done much better.


Tell that to Tark10.
Good for him  
jpkmets : 8/27/2016 3:15 pm : link
irrelevant whether I agree with his stance on the issue he's chosen. Tired of the age of vanilla athletes who put remaining noncontroversial to sponsors ahead of speaking to their ideals. Time will tell on Kap. Ali was crucified by enormous segments of population when he refused induction, and that certainly changed. Good to see a young man speak his mind in spite of the likely consequences.
Besides, Kap should have plenty of time practicing his  
Jimmy Googs : 8/27/2016 3:31 pm : link
art of protesting by sitting on the bench.

He can't even beat out Gabbert for the starting gig...
This wont end well  
Paulie Walnuts : 8/27/2016 3:45 pm : link
.
RE: The old Gunny is with you Marine One!  
Paulie Walnuts : 8/27/2016 3:46 pm : link
In comment 13088735 GeorgeFox said:
Quote:
If you disrespect the flag that so many brave men and women defended and died for than you and I will have a confrontation.


Bless you
Men and women  
Rob in CT/NYC : 8/27/2016 3:52 pm : link
Don't die for a piece of cloth, they die for their comrades, families and the principles of a nation, including the right to protest and speak freely.

The idea that it is somehow laudable to threaten violence on those that choose to utilize those freedoms is disturbing, and Paulie's hot take as a veteran of the Great Polish War of '80 is unsurprising.
RE: RE: I don't like what he did one bit  
Bill L : 8/27/2016 3:54 pm : link
In comment 13088846 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13088830 steve in ky said:


Quote:


but it is his right to do it.

What I don't want to ever hear from him is a complaint one day how he is losing out on something because of backlash to his actions. He believes in it enough to do it then own it and every negative that comes a along with it. When he misses out on some endorsement or gets cut as soon as his skills hint at diminishing don't cry about it.




he already said if he loses his NFL career or endorsements over it then he knows he was right.

I think NFL endorsements should be more about on-field and marketability so he should lose endorsements as a backup QB, but he's set it up now to make it about race.
which doesn't make much sense, since pulling endorsements would be as much a statement as was his. He can protest but no one said he could do it with impunity. Not sure how he could begrudge someone for acting as he did.
RE: Men and women  
pjcas18 : 8/27/2016 3:58 pm : link
In comment 13088950 Rob in CT/NYC said:
Quote:
Don't die for a piece of cloth, they die for their comrades, families and the principles of a nation, including the right to protest and speak freely.

The idea that it is somehow laudable to threaten violence on those that choose to utilize those freedoms is disturbing, and Paulie's hot take as a veteran of the Great Polish War of '80 is unsurprising.


Agree with the second part completely, but many of those people who die for exactly what you say in the first part consider the piece of cloth symbolic of those things.

I have a rich military history in my family, in fact I'm the first generation to NOT serve so it's certainly possible I feel a little guilt or over-sensitivity because of that, but they all take disrespecting the flag personally and as an affront to their service.

The WWII veterans in my family definitely different than my father who is a Vietnam veteran and didn't receive a heroes welcome like other wars, but it's still the same sentiment among most of my family which had a big influence on my values.

I wouldn't suggest it's not someone's right to protest in any legal manner, including burning the flag, but how people legally react to that protest is also their right.

I don't disagree  
Rob in CT/NYC : 8/27/2016 4:05 pm : link
That many people conflate their service or their love of country with the treatment of the flag - symbols have power, which is why we argue over the display of a swastika or the stars and bars.

Practically speaking, however, no one's service is diminished by what happens to a piece of cloth...the anger comes from the perception of the beliefs of the person behind the action.
I wish people would ignore him  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/27/2016 4:06 pm : link
That's the most effective action, IMO.
Very well said Rob  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/27/2016 4:07 pm : link
.
Just remember ........  
Reb8thVA : 8/27/2016 4:07 pm : link
Freedom isn't free. It costs $1.05!
.  
Bill2 : 8/27/2016 4:11 pm : link
I dunno about your lives but I belong to and love and strive for better for lots of flawed things with flawed pasts. Myself, my family, friends, companies and the USA.

But that's something I learned the hard way over time belonging to and striving for better with flawed things. Myself prime amongst them.

Like yet, when I was younger I was much more sure protest was standing up.

It's good to stand up. Feels righteous. Judges others in the process...always feels good for awhile. It's a lot tougher to consider how to do the right thing and be quietly effective at moving the needle forward.


Imho
Auto correct  
Bill2 : 8/27/2016 4:13 pm : link
Like Yat
RE: I don't disagree  
pjcas18 : 8/27/2016 4:14 pm : link
In comment 13088977 Rob in CT/NYC said:
Quote:
That many people conflate their service or their love of country with the treatment of the flag - symbols have power, which is why we argue over the display of a swastika or the stars and bars.

Practically speaking, however, no one's service is diminished by what happens to a piece of cloth...the anger comes from the perception of the beliefs of the person behind the action.


No argument from me with that. I do the last part of your last sentence is human nature though and explains a lot of behavior.
How About  
Bernie : 8/27/2016 4:14 pm : link
if you want respect, give respect.
RE: RE: I don't disagree  
pjcas18 : 8/27/2016 4:16 pm : link
In comment 13088994 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13088977 Rob in CT/NYC said:


Quote:


That many people conflate their service or their love of country with the treatment of the flag - symbols have power, which is why we argue over the display of a swastika or the stars and bars.

Practically speaking, however, no one's service is diminished by what happens to a piece of cloth...the anger comes from the perception of the beliefs of the person behind the action.



No argument from me with that. I do the last part of your last sentence is human nature though and explains a lot of behavior.


I do *think* the last part...
RE: RE: I know a lot of you say you admire and respect Muhammad Ali  
Bill in UT : 8/27/2016 4:40 pm : link
In comment 13088696 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:



100% supported Ali back in the day..One of the very few sport's idols in my life


I don't know what universe you were living in back then, Doc, but a hell of a lot of people didn't support what he did. I can't find any polling, but this article shows that even in the sports world many didn't support him. He certainly became an icon over time, but back in '66 he was a lightning rod.
Link - ( New Window )
Hi, Bill.  
yatqb : 8/27/2016 4:50 pm : link
Sometimes it's very hard to know how to make an impact, or what the ramifications of your actions will be. "Black Lives Matter" has had the impact of, imo, turning a lot of folks against the protesters, and to the justification of (to say the least) problematic decisions by some in the law enforcement community. And our protests in the '60s led to the generation gap and Nixon's election; certainly not what us protesters were hoping for.

Sadly, it takes a great deal of wisdom to figure out the short and long term consequences of some behaviors...and even well thought out actions can be propagandized against effectively in such a divided citizenry.
RE: RE: RE: Actually, it does make him a hypocrite  
Vanzetti : 8/27/2016 4:56 pm : link
In comment 13088697 Bill L said:
Quote:


hes not protesting an issue; it's a rejection of the country through its symbols. So yeah, glomming its benefits is hypocritical.

But he's still free to be one. He's sheltered and nurtured by the country, and still allowed to behave as he wishes.


You seem to be assuming that there is one way of being an American and that if someone does not conform to it they should leave the country or if they stay they are a hypocrite.

Kaepernick is every bit as American as you are and has a right to assert his vision of what HIS country should be.

Thoreau refused to pay his taxes because he did not support a war. This has been taught in most high schools for years as an exemplary act of freedom of thought and individual liberty. What Kaep did is mild compared to what Thoreau did.
RE: RE: RE: I know a lot of you say you admire and respect Muhammad Ali  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2016 4:58 pm : link
In comment 13089035 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
In comment 13088696 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:





100% supported Ali back in the day..One of the very few sport's idols in my life



I don't know what universe you were living in back then, Doc, but a hell of a lot of people didn't support what he did. I can't find any polling, but this article shows that even in the sports world many didn't support him. He certainly became an icon over time, but back in '66 he was a lightning rod. Link - ( New Window )


And a helluva lot did support him. I'd say it was split. College kids and anti-war protesters sided with him, the Vets and political establishment didn't..Cosell did a lot for him..
RE: The fact that  
Gatorade Dunk : 8/27/2016 5:03 pm : link
In comment 13088448 Andy Sky said:
Quote:
The 49ers referenced the 'freedom of religion" in their statement may be a clue about where this is coming from.

Um, what?
RE: RE: The fact that  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/27/2016 5:10 pm : link
In comment 13089074 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13088448 Andy Sky said:


Quote:


The 49ers referenced the 'freedom of religion" in their statement may be a clue about where this is coming from.


Um, what?


He's black so it's possible he's a Muslim which means he hates America
Interesting rant by Marine One  
Wuphat : 8/27/2016 5:17 pm : link
I served.

And one of the things I served for was to defend the right for CK to do exactly what he did.

Forced allegiance is no allegiance. It's fascism.
The actions of a statistically tiny sampling of America's law ...  
Crispino : 8/27/2016 5:21 pm : link
enforcement personnel lead you to conclude that you can's support the flag and the government? Does that include the President?
One man's opinion, Steve Weatherford via Facebook:  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2016 5:43 pm : link
Quote:


I never perpetuate negativity on social media but this pisses me off. You won't stand in respect of your country? You're welcome to leave, you ungreatful prick!!!!

Good punter  
David in LA : 8/27/2016 5:45 pm : link
but he's quite a bit of a self promoter for a punter. He's a bro version of Kluwe.
.  
Bill2 : 8/27/2016 5:46 pm : link
Hey Yat. I hope you and your family are well
This type of uniform would look good in SF  
madgiantscow009 : 8/27/2016 5:47 pm : link
BBI once again shows it is far left of the mainstream  
PatersonPlank : 8/27/2016 5:58 pm : link
I think a large percentage disagree with KP on this.

Anyway, my question is how does this end? In week 4 does he stand and then announce to the press that enough progress has been made? What is the progress he seeks? Is he blaming solely the police and not anyone on the other side? What exactly is he trying to get to here?
Players in any  
JPinstripes : 8/27/2016 6:04 pm : link
professionals sports league should not be allowed to involve anything related to the game (including pre-game activities) as a forum for their political or social views including any form of protest. That's my humble opinion.
RE: BBI once again shows it is far left of the mainstream  
baadbill : 8/27/2016 6:07 pm : link
In comment 13089151 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
I think a large percentage disagree with KP on this.

Anyway, my question is how does this end? In week 4 does he stand and then announce to the press that enough progress has been made? What is the progress he seeks? Is he blaming solely the police and not anyone on the other side? What exactly is he trying to get to here?


What are you talking about? Enough progress regarding what? The article quoted said: "Its unclear why Kaepernick sat." I don't think BBI is agreeing or disagreeing with KP's position seeing that nobody knows wtf he is protesting (and maybe he was just avoiding vomiting or something).

I think most people on this thread were merely stating that whatever his reason for sitting, it was his right to do so. America hasn't quite yet reached the point where you have to stand the way Germans did during Nazi Germany. I would hope most of us sing the anthem because we want to - not because it's some mandatory ritual.
RE: Interesting rant by Marine One  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/27/2016 6:10 pm : link
In comment 13089101 Wuphat said:
Quote:

one of the things I served for was to defend the right for CK to do exactly what he did.

Forced allegiance is no allegiance. It's fascism.


A lost point in this. Thank you.
RE: RE: Interesting rant by Marine One  
Bill L : 8/27/2016 6:11 pm : link
In comment 13089165 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13089101 Wuphat said:


Quote:



one of the things I served for was to defend the right for CK to do exactly what he did.

Forced allegiance is no allegiance. It's fascism.



A lost point in this. Thank you.
someone forced him to stand?
RE: RE: BBI once again shows it is far left of the mainstream  
PatersonPlank : 8/27/2016 6:13 pm : link
In comment 13089160 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13089151 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


I think a large percentage disagree with KP on this.

Anyway, my question is how does this end? In week 4 does he stand and then announce to the press that enough progress has been made? What is the progress he seeks? Is he blaming solely the police and not anyone on the other side? What exactly is he trying to get to here?



What are you talking about? Enough progress regarding what? The article quoted said: "Its unclear why Kaepernick sat." I don't think BBI is agreeing or disagreeing with KP's position seeing that nobody knows wtf he is protesting (and maybe he was just avoiding vomiting or something).

I think most people on this thread were merely stating that whatever his reason for sitting, it was his right to do so. America hasn't quite yet reached the point where you have to stand the way Germans did during Nazi Germany. I would hope most of us sing the anthem because we want to - not because it's some mandatory ritual.


Wow, relax. That is my question to KP. Ok he exercised his right to sit. Is this a one time sit, or an every week thing? If its more than a 1 time thing what does he hope to achieve and what is the end? These are my questions to KP when I think about this.
RE: RE: RE: Interesting rant by Marine One  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/27/2016 6:14 pm : link
In comment 13089167 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13089165 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13089101 Wuphat said:


Quote:



one of the things I served for was to defend the right for CK to do exactly what he did.

Forced allegiance is no allegiance. It's fascism.



A lost point in this. Thank you.

someone forced him to stand?


Obviously not, but the expectation from the masses that you stand no matter what is what he was talking about.
What's next  
JPinstripes : 8/27/2016 6:14 pm : link
every professional NFL player will turn their back to the flag during the National Anthem based on whatever issues they personally have with society and politics?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Interesting rant by Marine One  
Bill L : 8/27/2016 6:20 pm : link
In comment 13089172 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13089167 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13089165 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13089101 Wuphat said:


Quote:



one of the things I served for was to defend the right for CK to do exactly what he did.

Forced allegiance is no allegiance. It's fascism.



A lost point in this. Thank you.

someone forced him to stand?



Obviously not, but the expectation from the masses that you stand no matter what is what he was talking about.
i don't know if expectation equates to facsism. And exceeding his right shouldn't prevent others from criticizing him or even responding by not patronizing him (e.g., if someone actually were to pull an endorsement). We're still a ways away from the kind of forced allegiance he analogizes it to be.
Hey  
Jeever : 8/27/2016 6:20 pm : link
He's just practicing for the regular season where he'll have his a$$ firmly planted on the pine.
RE: RE: RE: BBI once again shows it is far left of the mainstream  
baadbill : 8/27/2016 6:22 pm : link
In comment 13089170 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 13089160 baadbill said:


Quote:


In comment 13089151 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


I think a large percentage disagree with KP on this.

Anyway, my question is how does this end? In week 4 does he stand and then announce to the press that enough progress has been made? What is the progress he seeks? Is he blaming solely the police and not anyone on the other side? What exactly is he trying to get to here?



What are you talking about? Enough progress regarding what? The article quoted said: "Its unclear why Kaepernick sat." I don't think BBI is agreeing or disagreeing with KP's position seeing that nobody knows wtf he is protesting (and maybe he was just avoiding vomiting or something).

I think most people on this thread were merely stating that whatever his reason for sitting, it was his right to do so. America hasn't quite yet reached the point where you have to stand the way Germans did during Nazi Germany. I would hope most of us sing the anthem because we want to - not because it's some mandatory ritual.



Wow, relax. That is my question to KP. Ok he exercised his right to sit. Is this a one time sit, or an every week thing? If its more than a 1 time thing what does he hope to achieve and what is the end? These are my questions to KP when I think about this.


I just read the other thread about Pugh and it appears KP was trying to make a point about police treatment of african american men. He's probably been effective to the extent a lot of people are talking about why he sat during the national anthem. But most of the discussion I've seen isn't about WHY he sat but rather whether sitting during the national anthem is ever appropriate (insinuating that if you don't recite the pledge of allegiance you don't deserve to be an American - any more than those who refused to salute/recite Heil Hitler didn't deserve to be Nazis).
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Interesting rant by Marine One  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/27/2016 6:25 pm : link
In comment 13089179 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13089172 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13089167 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13089165 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13089101 Wuphat said:


Quote:



one of the things I served for was to defend the right for CK to do exactly what he did.

Forced allegiance is no allegiance. It's fascism.



A lost point in this. Thank you.

someone forced him to stand?



Obviously not, but the expectation from the masses that you stand no matter what is what he was talking about.

i don't know if expectation equates to facsism. And exceeding his right shouldn't prevent others from criticizing him or even responding by not patronizing him (e.g., if someone actually were to pull an endorsement). We're still a ways away from the kind of forced allegiance he analogizes it to be.


If we're being fully honest, it's a telling reminder that people don't seem to recall the principles this country was founded on. America was born out of dissent and disobedience in the face of perceived injustice. It's funny to see the mob demanding that he 'fall in line', when what he's referencing is a very real problem the country faces. There's nothing wrong with it, just like there was nothing wrong with John Carlos making a political statement during the olympics. Yes, people have the right to criticise him, but why would you criticise someone who is making a statement against the strained race relations that are being put on display all over the country?
RE: RE: RE: RE: BBI once again shows it is far left of the mainstream  
pjcas18 : 8/27/2016 6:25 pm : link
In comment 13089185 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13089170 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


In comment 13089160 baadbill said:


Quote:


In comment 13089151 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


I think a large percentage disagree with KP on this.

Anyway, my question is how does this end? In week 4 does he stand and then announce to the press that enough progress has been made? What is the progress he seeks? Is he blaming solely the police and not anyone on the other side? What exactly is he trying to get to here?



What are you talking about? Enough progress regarding what? The article quoted said: "Its unclear why Kaepernick sat." I don't think BBI is agreeing or disagreeing with KP's position seeing that nobody knows wtf he is protesting (and maybe he was just avoiding vomiting or something).

I think most people on this thread were merely stating that whatever his reason for sitting, it was his right to do so. America hasn't quite yet reached the point where you have to stand the way Germans did during Nazi Germany. I would hope most of us sing the anthem because we want to - not because it's some mandatory ritual.



Wow, relax. That is my question to KP. Ok he exercised his right to sit. Is this a one time sit, or an every week thing? If its more than a 1 time thing what does he hope to achieve and what is the end? These are my questions to KP when I think about this.



I just read the other thread about Pugh and it appears KP was trying to make a point about police treatment of african american men. He's probably been effective to the extent a lot of people are talking about why he sat during the national anthem. But most of the discussion I've seen isn't about WHY he sat but rather whether sitting during the national anthem is ever appropriate (insinuating that if you don't recite the pledge of allegiance you don't deserve to be an American - any more than those who refused to salute/recite Heil Hitler didn't deserve to be Nazis).


RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Interesting rant by Marine One  
Bill L : 8/27/2016 6:31 pm : link
In comment 13089188 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13089179 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13089172 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13089167 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13089165 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13089101 Wuphat said:


Quote:



one of the things I served for was to defend the right for CK to do exactly what he did.

Forced allegiance is no allegiance. It's fascism.



A lost point in this. Thank you.

someone forced him to stand?



Obviously not, but the expectation from the masses that you stand no matter what is what he was talking about.

i don't know if expectation equates to facsism. And exceeding his right shouldn't prevent others from criticizing him or even responding by not patronizing him (e.g., if someone actually were to pull an endorsement). We're still a ways away from the kind of forced allegiance he analogizes it to be.



If we're being fully honest, it's a telling reminder that people don't seem to recall the principles this country was founded on. America was born out of dissent and disobedience in the face of perceived injustice. It's funny to see the mob demanding that he 'fall in line', when what he's referencing is a very real problem the country faces. There's nothing wrong with it, just like there was nothing wrong with John Carlos making a political statement during the olympics. Yes, people have the right to criticise him, but why would you criticise someone who is making a statement against the strained race relations that are being put on display all over the country?
not sure he's protesting strained race relations as opposed to making a statement about what he believes about police wrt race relations. Further, his mode was not a protest against a particular aspect of the country but the country itself and encompassed everything. And, you can find plenty to criticize about him and the Mexico City athletes wrt time and place etc. the right to criticize is always as inherent and, being someone else's expression, of no less worth than the expression being criticized.
I should add that personally,  
Bill L : 8/27/2016 6:34 pm : link
I don't care if he or anyone else stands during the National Anthem. Or outs their hands on their hearts. The wearing of baseball caps irritates me but that's more ignorant douches than political statement. To each their own. But I just don't see qualitative differences between the actions and reactions.
I can only take him for what he said.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/27/2016 6:38 pm : link
He didn't say anything about police, he specifically cited the entire country. So, I'm not going to try to parse a meaning behind them other than what seems a pretty clear stance.

I don't believe in tying the flag to the government or the police, but plenty of people do the same thing. I think there's definitely part of the country that doesn't look at the flag with a great sense of pride because of the things that have been going on.

For me, the flag and the anthem are more about the idea and the intention of America, not a representation of the agenda of whatever political party may be making decisions at the time. For people with a different perspective, it's probably more difficult to separate the two.
RE: I can only take him for what he said.  
pjcas18 : 8/27/2016 6:44 pm : link
In comment 13089206 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
He didn't say anything about police, he specifically cited the entire country. So, I'm not going to try to parse a meaning behind them other than what seems a pretty clear stance.

I don't believe in tying the flag to the government or the police, but plenty of people do the same thing. I think there's definitely part of the country that doesn't look at the flag with a great sense of pride because of the things that have been going on.

For me, the flag and the anthem are more about the idea and the intention of America, not a representation of the agenda of whatever political party may be making decisions at the time. For people with a different perspective, it's probably more difficult to separate the two.


His last sentence isn't about the police?

Quote:
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."
RE: Players in any  
rocco8112 : 8/27/2016 6:44 pm : link
In comment 13089159 JPinstripes said:
Quote:
professionals sports league should not be allowed to involve anything related to the game (including pre-game activities) as a forum for their political or social views including any form of protest. That's my humble opinion.


Agreed, he is a professional and his main concern should be maximizing his ability to play and helping his team win. Anything else is a distraction and an insult to his teammates, the franchise that pays him very well, the fans and the game itself.

That said, his career is disintegrating and this is a pathetic attention grab. Remember when this guy was the next big thing? It is very hard to be a franchise QB, to carry the mail for a team year in and year out. It might be the most difficult job in sports.

The best response to these antics should be a resounding who cares. Unless you are a 'niner looking to build a good season. Then you have to care about where this guy's priorities are.

RE: Some of you people take  
RC02XX : 8/27/2016 6:46 pm : link
In comment 13088586 Marine One said:
Quote:
a hell of a lot for granted. Sure, it's a symbol one that has stood the test of time and had the balls to stand up against tyrrany and shit around the world, THAT SYMBOL! The problem with some of you younger guys is you were "educated" by a gathering of leftists who have no regard for country or American exceptionalism. You bitch and complain about the smallest of inconveniences and then disrespect the country that affords you to live with your parents well into adulthood. Try that in El Salvador, Burma, MEXICO! Realize what you have here, you know, that whole Carpe Diem thing? On the topic of the black cause, I played sports scholastically and collegiately with blacks, served with blacks in the Marine Corps and never had one racial incident! In fact, I was looked at as an honorary "brother" of sorts. So, and having said that, Kapernick can kiss my ass and needs to spend more than two weeks in someplace other than the US. This whole disrespect and disregard for the American Symbol is tired and disgusting. When I watch Usain Bolt pay homage to our National Anthem and this wannabe Joe Montana sits there, Fuck Him and all that think it doesn't make a difference. It (the flag) means too much around the world to those that live in repression and squalor and shit in the street. So before you blow it off as some publicity stunt, there is someone, somewhere watching saying, "see, that whole democracy thing doesn't work as well as you think it does" and will do everything thay can to shit on the USA as opposed to in the street! You stomp, burn, rip the flag in front of me and I'm kicking your ass, or die trying and that is not some beer muscles, or cyber gym workout talking here. You get paid millions per year to play a game (marginally at that) you stand the hell up, or sit permanently! Which in Kapernick's case is not too long down the road!


From one Marine to another (including George Fox below, who happens to be a former GySgt), I'm going to be honest with you and mean no disrespect. Responses like this and others on here don't paint you or others in a good light. The ideals of the Corps and the military writ large aren't about bashing and flying off the handles for perceived disrespect of a piece of cloth or a song. It is about serving the nation and its citizens to allow them to make such personal political choices that are guaranteed by the Constitution without your own personal honor being so offended that you make statements that border on being embarrassing. Of course you can be offended, but posts like this are a bit embarrassing.

I don't agree with what Kap did or what his stance is, but in the grand scheme of things we deal with on a daily basis, it's so irrelevant that I'm not sure it's even all that newsworthy, let alone something for me to get all bent out of shape about.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Interesting rant by Marine One  
RC02XX : 8/27/2016 6:52 pm : link
In comment 13089179 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13089172 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13089167 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13089165 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13089101 Wuphat said:


Quote:



one of the things I served for was to defend the right for CK to do exactly what he did.

Forced allegiance is no allegiance. It's fascism.



A lost point in this. Thank you.

someone forced him to stand?



Obviously not, but the expectation from the masses that you stand no matter what is what he was talking about.

i don't know if expectation equates to facsism. And exceeding his right shouldn't prevent others from criticizing him or even responding by not patronizing him (e.g., if someone actually were to pull an endorsement). We're still a ways away from the kind of forced allegiance he analogizes it to be.


Wuphat' point wasn't about Kap specifically as much as a response to Marine One and his post regarding threatened violence against those disparaging the symbols that he holds dear. You're getting close to radar land sometimes with some of your responses.
Ronnie, approaching radar status?  
David in LA : 8/27/2016 6:56 pm : link
He's been an appeal to authority poster for years.
RE: Ronnie, approaching radar status?  
Bill L : 8/27/2016 7:04 pm : link
In comment 13089226 David in LA said:
Quote:
He's been an appeal to authority poster for years.
im not exactly sure what that means.

And Ronnie, respect your opinion on that. And I'm not even sure you're wrong. I will say that it's not my intention to be contrary. But the conversation was CK and I felt that the quoted statement was hyperbolic. But to the extent that I continued to participate or extend the discussion, your point is taken.
RE: Probably just the beginning.  
Modus Operandi : 8/27/2016 7:04 pm : link
In comment 13088460 Tark10 said:
Quote:
This is what happens if a person spends too much time in California. There are school districts passing out "Pledge Of Allegiance" waivers. If they don't want to stand and recite the pledge, the waiver allows them to sit and stare at their I-phones. Just another sad indication of a country in the decline. Kap just may be suffering from "tattoo poisoning". Here in Houston, the school district has major budget problems. The Board Of Directors decided to close some schools and lay off teachers to save some money. Meanwhile, they have also decided to spend 1.4 million to rename 8 schools because the current names are affiliated with the confederacy. This is what happens when liberals are placed in decision making positions. Its all about political correctness with common sense thrown out the window.


It's a miracle you're capable of thinking up so many bad ideas while sitting on your head.

So let me get this straight - California breeds stupid people because it's a liberal state? Some of the brightest and most talented people on Earth have either been born in California or later made it their home. Including Ronald Reagan, whom I presume you're a fan of. Why? Because it's a beautiful state. Most of the amenities and devices that make our lives easier every day were developed here - specifically in the Bay area.

What precisely have you contributed to society?
What I take from this thread  
Bill in UT : 8/27/2016 7:59 pm : link
is the silly attention given to athletes and entertainers. Why should anyone GAF what any of them think or say?
RE: What I take from this thread  
RC02XX : 8/27/2016 9:33 pm : link
In comment 13089437 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
is the silly attention given to athletes and entertainers. Why should anyone GAF what any of them think or say?


+1
My hometown is Los Angeles, CA...  
RC02XX : 8/27/2016 9:35 pm : link
I'm definitely a prime example of the liberal agenda of that state.
Colin  
Giant John : 8/27/2016 9:38 pm : link
Come around me some time.
RE: CK7 also stated that  
RC02XX : 8/27/2016 10:07 pm : link
In comment 13088593 LAXin said:
Quote:
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color."

I always ask someone who holds such a view of white-oppression: then why do Asians in this country -- not just a selective few at the top, but on average as an ethnic group of tens of millions -- somehow achieve higher education, lower crime rate, and higher income than even the whites, who are supposedly doing all these terrible oppressions from the top?

Are Asian people not color enough to be oppressed by the whites? Or did the white ruling class just somehow forgot to oppress this particular ethnic group? Or is the whites' oppression against the Asians so damn sophisticated and well-hidden that it already goes beyond and deeper than the trivial and mundane stuffs like education, income, and incarceration rate?


As a fellow Asian, I'll tell you this to help you out...you need to learn some history of the genesis of the oppression experienced by African Americans since the founding of this nation. While Asians have also been oppressed in certain ways in the past, it is not comparable to the point that you are trying to make.
....  
yankees78 : 8/27/2016 10:08 pm : link
GiantFilthy's 1:40 pm post reminds me why he is my favorite.
...  
J : 8/27/2016 10:11 pm : link
did CK's action (or inaction) have its desired effect?

Are we talking about black people and people of color being oppressed? Bodies in the street with people getting paid leave?

or are we talking about how spoiled and wrong CK was?

or a mix of both, and it was a step in the right direction?
RE: I think it took  
SomeFan : 8/27/2016 10:23 pm : link
In comment 13088565 Metnut said:
Quote:
real guts to do what he did knowing the heat that he was inevitably going to take afterward.


Real guts. That is rich.
RE: ....  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/27/2016 10:30 pm : link
In comment 13090259 yankees78 said:
Quote:
GiantFilthy's 1:40 pm post reminds me why he is my favorite.


Agreed, he won the thread
I guess some people don't understand  
Carl in CT : 8/27/2016 10:50 pm : link
Satire. Maybe it's the air in California.
RE: I guess some people don't understand  
RC02XX : 8/27/2016 10:57 pm : link
In comment 13090423 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
Satire. Maybe it's the air in California.


Well, in Filthy's defense, he's not from California, so there is some other reason why he must have missed your sarcasm...although in this thread it's not as readily apparent that it was satire or sarcasm that you posted.
RE: Never Liked Him from Day One ...  
Montreal Man : 8/27/2016 11:12 pm : link
In comment 13088658 Bluesbreaker said:
Quote:
Actually he is actually in the Cam Newton category for me .
If anyone is using Roids or whatever it has to be him .
Can Remember him early in his career when he took over
for Alex Smith he is such a friggen jack ass and I hope
he gets decleated every time he touches the FootBall .
It Takes some kind of an asshole not to show common
curtisy during National Anthem .
No matter what his or anyones beliefs are he is a classless
asswipe ..


Yes, yes, yes.
The Civil War was a national tragedy. The percentage of young men  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 8/27/2016 11:17 pm : link
killed in this war easily surpasses all the other wars we ever fought. Many here I'm sure are well read on the Civil War and its era and realize that back in high school we learned a great deal of myths about that time.

Lincoln, for instance, we believed freed all the slaves when he signed the Emancipation Proclamation. That document freed the slaves in the Confederate states, but not in the border slavery states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Tennessee, who had remained in the Union.

Lincoln, although a staunch abolitionist, never made a secret of the fact that the purpose of the war was to restore the Union, not to free the slaves. Lincoln needed the political support of the border states for his 1864 re-election campaign. He believed, correctly as it turned out, that his re-election was necessary to end the war, and most importantly, to manage the peaceful re-union of the states.

The Confederate states had many legitimate grievances against the North. If the entrance into the Union was completely voluntary on the part of each colony, why did the Southern states not have the right to voluntarily withdraw from the Union? If the hallowed Declaration of Independence provided that

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

How did this exclude the states of the Confederacy from instituting a new government? And towards the end of the Civil War, the North began a war of terror against the property and the people of the South that was unparalleled in the last several centuries of Western warfare. Particularly in the Napoleonic Wars both sides had been careful to meet each other out in the open, away from cities and damage to non-combatant civilians.

Best known as a part of Sherman's march through Georgia, which was considered in Europe to be barbarism, the Confederacy has a right to remember these acts.

All in all, the Civil War ended over 150 years ago. All involved are long dead. If someone feels the need to go back in time and criticize those who were in power at the time, just repay him with the attention which he deserves, which is none.
RE: Some of you people take  
Montreal Man : 8/27/2016 11:21 pm : link
In comment 13088586 Marine One said:
Quote:
a hell of a lot for granted. Sure, it's a symbol one that has stood the test of time and had the balls to stand up against tyrrany and shit around the world, THAT SYMBOL! The problem with some of you younger guys is you were "educated" by a gathering of leftists who have no regard for country or American exceptionalism. You bitch and complain about the smallest of inconveniences and then disrespect the country that affords you to live with your parents well into adulthood. Try that in El Salvador, Burma, MEXICO! Realize what you have here, you know, that whole Carpe Diem thing? On the topic of the black cause, I played sports scholastically and collegiately with blacks, served with blacks in the Marine Corps and never had one racial incident! In fact, I was looked at as an honorary "brother" of sorts. So, and having said that, Kapernick can kiss my ass and needs to spend more than two weeks in someplace other than the US. This whole disrespect and disregard for the American Symbol is tired and disgusting. When I watch Usain Bolt pay homage to our National Anthem and this wannabe Joe Montana sits there, Fuck Him and all that think it doesn't make a difference. It (the flag) means too much around the world to those that live in repression and squalor and shit in the street. So before you blow it off as some publicity stunt, there is someone, somewhere watching saying, "see, that whole democracy thing doesn't work as well as you think it does" and will do everything thay can to shit on the USA as opposed to in the street! You stomp, burn, rip the flag in front of me and I'm kicking your ass, or die trying and that is not some beer muscles, or cyber gym workout talking here. You get paid millions per year to play a game (marginally at that) you stand the hell up, or sit permanently! Which in Kapernick's case is not too long down the road!


Thank you. Nothing more to say.
RE: The Civil War was a national tragedy. The percentage of young men  
Reb8thVA : 8/28/2016 12:18 am : link
In comment 13090519 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:
Quote:
killed in this war easily surpasses all the other wars we ever fought. Many here I'm sure are well read on the Civil War and its era and realize that back in high school we learned a great deal of myths about that time.

Lincoln, for instance, we believed freed all the slaves when he signed the Emancipation Proclamation. That document freed the slaves in the Confederate states, but not in the border slavery states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Tennessee, who had remained in the Union.

Lincoln, although a staunch abolitionist, never made a secret of the fact that the purpose of the war was to restore the Union, not to free the slaves. Lincoln needed the political support of the border states for his 1864 re-election campaign. He believed, correctly as it turned out, that his re-election was necessary to end the war, and most importantly, to manage the peaceful re-union of the states.

The Confederate states had many legitimate grievances against the North. If the entrance into the Union was completely voluntary on the part of each colony, why did the Southern states not have the right to voluntarily withdraw from the Union? If the hallowed Declaration of Independence provided that

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

How did this exclude the states of the Confederacy from instituting a new government? And towards the end of the Civil War, the North began a war of terror against the property and the people of the South that was unparalleled in the last several centuries of Western warfare. Particularly in the Napoleonic Wars both sides had been careful to meet each other out in the open, away from cities and damage to non-combatant civilians.

Best known as a part of Sherman's march through Georgia, which was considered in Europe to be barbarism, the Confederacy has a right to remember these acts.

All in all, the Civil War ended over 150 years ago. All involved are long dead. If someone feels the need to go back in time and criticize those who were in power at the time, just repay him with the attention which he deserves, which is none.


Umm no!

Lincoln was not a staunch abolitionist. William Lloyd Garrison, Wendell Philips, John Brown were. Lincoln was a free spoiler who opposed the extension of slavery. He became an opponent of slavery and determined to end it only as the war dragged on and the sacrifices endured by both hires and blacks made it clear that things could not go back to the status quo.

Second, the Emancipation Proclomation was an act of political expediency and a war time measure born out of necessity. As Union troops drove deeper and deeper into Tennesee, Lousisiana, Mississippi and Alabama in 1862 many slaves were freed by default and there was uncertainty about what to do with them. Army commanders like General Benjamin Butler declared them contraband and freed them. Thus the question was thrust on Lincoln's plate. How should they deal with this new problem. Lincoln couldn't end slavery outright. In the Dred Scott decision the Supreme Court in a 7-2 ruling essentially ruled the federal government didn't have that power. Lincoln knew that if he tried to go that route Chief Justice Taney would rule it unconstitutional. So, Lincoln decided to free the slaves only in those areas in an act of rebellion to the US and sell it as a temporary wartime measure. This is why it did not apply to the border states . That is why when Taney dies in 1864, Lincoln replaces him with a staunch abolitionist Salmon Chase as Chief Justice. He also had two other Supreme Court nominations. Because he knew that the EP was largely a war time measure that is why he pressed so hard for the 13th amendment before the war ended, so there would be no doubt that the peculiar institution would die.

Concerns about alienating the border states was an important consideration behind the EP but constitutional concerns were the main driver.

c
RE: RE: CK7 also stated that  
LAXin : 8/28/2016 12:45 am : link
In comment 13090258 RC02XX said:
Quote:
As a fellow Asian, I'll tell you this to help you out...you need to learn some history of the genesis of the oppression experienced by African Americans since the founding of this nation. While Asians have also been oppressed in certain ways in the past, it is not comparable to the point that you are trying to make.


Don't patronize me, Ronnie. I know you are Korean, and you're a Marine, and your twin brother is also military. You've broadcasted your background repeatedly, and often voluntarily, over the years. I can't possibly miss it unless I no longer come to Eric's website which I first joyfully visited in the summer of 1996.

Oh yeah, speaking of Asians and the stereotype/oppression against Asians, which you so condescendingly lectured me about, ... A year ago there was a thread here about the weirdest question one got asked in his/her life. And yours was that you were once repeatedly asked where you're from, or what nationality you are, after you'd already firmly replied "California" or " American"; and also because your kids possess a lot of their white mother's features ("blonde hair blue eyes" -- again, your revelation unprompted from a different thread), you were once asked by a stranger about the kids' background in a public place, as if there was doubt in the guy's mind that you could be the father.

You know why I remember this vividly? Because of your final summary that followed: you said you "felt weird" about these inquires, that you were puzzled. Now, forgive my language, WTF were you puzzled and felt weird about??? This was oppression/stereotype right to your face: that despite you spilled blood for this country, that despite you having a spouse who is ethnic majority, your self-identification of "I'm American" or "I'm from CA" were utterly rejected by them. Did you really not see this unmitigated stereotype/oppression? Your feeling should have been anger, not "felt weird": your action should have been confronting the guy right there, not expressing your bewilderment at an Internet forum years later, and now you also lecture me about the need to have the sensitivity to understand the different degrees of oppression suffered by different people of different shades of skin color?

Now back to the original point: as a whole, Asian immigrants arrived at this nation later than others, and as poor as those already at the bottom here. Yet, they generally got out of poverty, got out of welfare, got into college or beyond and entered upper middle class by the 2nd generation, doing even better than the whites as a whole, while being incarcerated far less while getting there. What does this tell me? It tells me that while oppression/discrimination/stereotype surely exists, it's not nearly strong enough and universal enough a social issue to be a deciding factor for any one, and thus it does not deserve neay as much attentions and resources from the society as people like Kapernick so frequently request. He does not see that, then in my eyes he himself is the bigot, the racist.
Since you obviously know a lot about me...  
RC02XX : 8/28/2016 1:30 am : link
Let me clarify something to you. Being asked where I'm from or someone looking at my children and wondering what is their make up is not oppression. I find it weird rather than be upset about it is because I actually understand the definition of oppression, and what I have experienced isn't oppression. And I'm certain that whatever you've experienced in your life will never be comparable with the oppression experienced by African Americans past and present. No matter how hard you want to make it seem like it's the same as the oppression experienced by the African American community, your attempt to basically state, "hey, the Asians did it so why can't they" is utter bullshit and weaker than hell.

The history of oppression of those who were brought here as slaves as opposed to those who came here for better opportunities for the most part are so antithesis of each other that only similarity is that both groups aren't white. To compare the two in such an even manner is almost comical.

The funny thing is, you may know about my history, and while I don't know who you are, I do know that you have a penchant for playing the poor Asian boy schtick in your posts, which I've counter in previous threads. Seems like you're playing the same tune again, my good chap.
never found so much to disagree with  
grizz299 : 8/28/2016 5:10 am : link
Lincoln, for instance, we believed freed all the slaves when he signed the Emancipation Proclamation. That document freed the slaves in the Confederate states, but not in the border slavery states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Tennessee, who had remained in the Union.
I've spent this last year on about eight books on Lincoln.
You've got it wrong....all wrong. and you really ought not to spout off about something you know nothing about
The Emancipation was based on a war time act that gave the US the right to confiscate the PROPERTY of a belligerent.
Because the border states fought on the side of the union they could not be classified as a "belligerent".
Lincoln knew the emancipation was flawed and indeed supported the Dred Scott Decision insomuch that it was based on the fact that slaves were Property.
Knowing that he fought like hell to get the thirteenth amendment passed, that abolished slavery once for all.
As the war ended, Lincoln's last speech cxalled for extending sufferage to the ex-slaves. It's that speech that inflamed John Wilkes Booth and cost Lincoln his life.


never found so much to disagree with  
grizz299 : 8/28/2016 5:10 am : link
Lincoln, for instance, we believed freed all the slaves when he signed the Emancipation Proclamation. That document freed the slaves in the Confederate states, but not in the border slavery states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Tennessee, who had remained in the Union.
I've spent this last year on about eight books on Lincoln.
You've got it wrong....all wrong. and you really ought not to spout off about something you know nothing about
The Emancipation was based on a war time act that gave the US the right to confiscate the PROPERTY of a belligerent.
Because the border states fought on the side of the union they could not be classified as a "belligerent".
Lincoln knew the emancipation was flawed and indeed supported the Dred Scott Decision insomuch that it was based on the fact that slaves were Property.
Knowing that he fought like hell to get the thirteenth amendment passed, that abolished slavery once for all.
As the war ended, Lincoln's last speech cxalled for extending sufferage to the ex-slaves. It's that speech that inflamed John Wilkes Booth and cost Lincoln his life.


RE: BBI once again shows it is far left of the mainstream  
Sonic Youth : 8/28/2016 5:22 am : link
In comment 13089151 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
I think a large percentage disagree with KP on this.

Anyway, my question is how does this end? In week 4 does he stand and then announce to the press that enough progress has been made? What is the progress he seeks? Is he blaming solely the police and not anyone on the other side? What exactly is he trying to get to here?
this is really funny bc to me, this board very obviously skews a little older and at least center right (w a mix of views if course)
RE: never found so much to disagree with  
Sonic Youth : 8/28/2016 5:24 am : link
In comment 13090655 grizz299 said:
Quote:
Lincoln, for instance, we believed freed all the slaves when he signed the Emancipation Proclamation. That document freed the slaves in the Confederate states, but not in the border slavery states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Tennessee, who had remained in the Union.
I've spent this last year on about eight books on Lincoln.
You've got it wrong....all wrong. and you really ought not to spout off about something you know nothing about
The Emancipation was based on a war time act that gave the US the right to confiscate the PROPERTY of a belligerent.
Because the border states fought on the side of the union they could not be classified as a "belligerent".
Lincoln knew the emancipation was flawed and indeed supported the Dred Scott Decision insomuch that it was based on the fact that slaves were Property.
Knowing that he fought like hell to get the thirteenth amendment passed, that abolished slavery once for all.
As the war ended, Lincoln's last speech cxalled for extending sufferage to the ex-slaves. It's that speech that inflamed John Wilkes Booth and cost Lincoln his life.

I was not aware of this and am glad I now understand. Thanks for this post
Only in America  
LeonofKiev : 8/28/2016 5:32 am : link
can bullshit like this be rationalized.
I'm almost speechless....
RE: Since you obviously know a lot about me...  
Sonic Youth : 8/28/2016 5:33 am : link
In comment 13090616 RC02XX said:
Quote:
Let me clarify something to you. Being asked where I'm from or someone looking at my children and wondering what is their make up is not oppression. I find it weird rather than be upset about it is because I actually understand the definition of oppression, and what I have experienced isn't oppression. And I'm certain that whatever you've experienced in your life will never be comparable with the oppression experienced by African Americans past and present. No matter how hard you want to make it seem like it's the same as the oppression experienced by the African American community, your attempt to basically state, "hey, the Asians did it so why can't they" is utter bullshit and weaker than hell.

The history of oppression of those who were brought here as slaves as opposed to those who came here for better opportunities for the most part are so antithesis of each other that only similarity is that both groups aren't white. To compare the two in such an even manner is almost comical.

The funny thing is, you may know about my history, and while I don't know who you are, I do know that you have a penchant for playing the poor Asian boy schtick in your posts, which I've counter in previous threads. Seems like you're playing the same tune again, my good chap.
I will admit I skipped a large portion of this thread from when I was on BBI earlier to when I just got home an hour ago or so, but the opposing argument seems to strangely gloss over the obvious difference: one group of people (asians/south asians which includes my grandparents) chose to emigrate here, the other were brought here under the social contract of slavery, freed from them, then had their newfound freedom actively counteracted via social/political/legal forces.

Kap should go all in and change his name  
Les in TO : 8/28/2016 6:27 am : link
To Mohamed Abdul Suckyquarterback
RE: The Civil War was a national tragedy. The percentage of young men  
Jimmy Googs : 8/28/2016 7:36 am : link
In comment 13090519 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:
Quote:
killed in this war easily surpasses all the other wars we ever fought. Many here I'm sure are well read on the Civil War and its era and realize that back in high school we learned a great deal of myths about that time.

Lincoln, for instance, we believed freed all the slaves when he signed the Emancipation Proclamation. That document freed the slaves in the Confederate states, but not in the border slavery states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Tennessee, who had remained in the Union.

Lincoln, although a staunch abolitionist, never made a secret of the fact that the purpose of the war was to restore the Union, not to free the slaves. Lincoln needed the political support of the border states for his 1864 re-election campaign. He believed, correctly as it turned out, that his re-election was necessary to end the war, and most importantly, to manage the peaceful re-union of the states.

The Confederate states had many legitimate grievances against the North. If the entrance into the Union was completely voluntary on the part of each colony, why did the Southern states not have the right to voluntarily withdraw from the Union? If the hallowed Declaration of Independence provided that

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

How did this exclude the states of the Confederacy from instituting a new government? And towards the end of the Civil War, the North began a war of terror against the property and the people of the South that was unparalleled in the last several centuries of Western warfare. Particularly in the Napoleonic Wars both sides had been careful to meet each other out in the open, away from cities and damage to non-combatant civilians.

Best known as a part of Sherman's march through Georgia, which was considered in Europe to be barbarism, the Confederacy has a right to remember these acts.

All in all, the Civil War ended over 150 years ago. All involved are long dead. If someone feels the need to go back in time and criticize those who were in power at the time, just repay him with the attention which he deserves, which is none.


You have some statements here that are not correct. Be careful when read civil war history books that you do not take the author's point of view home with you all the time...
RE: Only in America  
Modus Operandi : 8/28/2016 8:37 am : link
In comment 13090659 LeonofKiev said:
Quote:
can bullshit like this be rationalized.
I'm almost speechless....


Almost? What else can we do to make th art a reality?
When he's demoted to the CFL  
buford : 8/28/2016 8:58 am : link
will he have a problem standing for O Canada for their oppression of Native Americans?
RE: Some of you people take  
baadbill : 8/28/2016 9:25 am : link
In comment 13088586 Marine One said:
Quote:
a hell of a lot for granted... You stomp, burn, rip the flag in front of me and I'm kicking your ass, or die trying and that is not some beer muscles, or cyber gym workout talking here.


Wow. Forced patriotism. Salute the flag or die! Thanks for defending the principles of freedom Marine One.
Reminds me of a typical celebrity  
feelflows : 8/28/2016 9:51 am : link
"this country sucks....be right back after I count my millions"
RE: RE: Some of you people take  
Big Blue '56 : 8/28/2016 9:54 am : link
In comment 13090761 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13088586 Marine One said:


Quote:


a hell of a lot for granted... You stomp, burn, rip the flag in front of me and I'm kicking your ass, or die trying and that is not some beer muscles, or cyber gym workout talking here.



Wow. Forced patriotism. Salute the flag or die! Thanks for defending the principles of freedom Marine One.


Baad, hard to disagree with most of what you've posted here, but this is my quick take (opinion):

During the Viet Nam years, I was against the war, protested where I could and was, in sum, totally disgustd by our involvement..I was/am disgusted with how the returning Vets were treated regardless of my stance..

Still, any burning of the flag, the symbol of which has been discussed very cogently on here, was disrespectful, bullshit and repugnant to every fiber of my being. But even then, as now, I ALWAYS recognized any American's right to burn the flag or any other American symbol, regardless of how much I loathe the action..
I'm personally not a big fan of service members taking it upon  
RC02XX : 8/28/2016 10:01 am : link
Themselves to somehow act like authoritative defenders of the ideals of patriotism. What they did is great and admirable, but society shouldn't just differ to them when it comes to the meaning of being patriotic. Everyone has equal say in what is and isn't patriotic as long as they understand and adhere to the basic tenets of the Constitution and at least respect others' right to act accordingly.

The worst thing we can do is to enforce a specific notion or image of patriotism with threat of violence. You can be annoyed by and even pity others for not expressing similar level of reverence for various symbols of this nation and patriotism that you may feel, but to go beyond that and lose your shit over it seems just wrong.
==========  
GiantFilthy : 8/28/2016 10:09 am : link
Quote:
I'm personally not a big fan of service members taking it upon
RC02XX : 10:01 am : link : reply
Themselves to somehow act like authoritative defenders of the ideals of patriotism. What they did is great and admirable, but society shouldn't just differ to them when it comes to the meaning of being patriotic. Everyone has equal say in what is and isn't patriotic as long as they understand and adhere to the basic tenets of the Constitution and at least respect others' right to act accordingly.

The worst thing we can do is to enforce a specific notion or image of patriotism with threat of violence. You can be annoyed by and even pity others for not expressing similar level of reverence for various symbols of this nation and patriotism that you may feel, but to go beyond that and lose your shit over it seems just wrong.

I don't always agree with Ronnie, but that has more to do with my love of shirts. However, this post here is how I'd like to imagine my feelings would be if I had been a service member myself.
Baadbill  
Big Al : 8/28/2016 10:15 am : link
has been the best and most correct poster throughout this thread.
RE: RE: RE: Some of you people take  
baadbill : 8/28/2016 10:16 am : link
In comment 13090803 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13090761 baadbill said:


Quote:


In comment 13088586 Marine One said:


Quote:


a hell of a lot for granted... You stomp, burn, rip the flag in front of me and I'm kicking your ass, or die trying and that is not some beer muscles, or cyber gym workout talking here.



Wow. Forced patriotism. Salute the flag or die! Thanks for defending the principles of freedom Marine One.



Baad, hard to disagree with most of what you've posted here, but this is my quick take (opinion):

During the Viet Nam years, I was against the war, protested where I could and was, in sum, totally disgustd by our involvement..I was/am disgusted with how the returning Vets were treated regardless of my stance..

Still, any burning of the flag, the symbol of which has been discussed very cogently on here, was disrespectful, bullshit and repugnant to every fiber of my being. But even then, as now, I ALWAYS recognized any American's right to burn the flag or any other American symbol, regardless of how much I loathe the action..


Agree 100% BB56. I'm not saying burning the flag is itself an honorable thing to do. Protecting the rights of those that burn the flag is the honorable thing - the democratic thing - the essence of MY freedom is the act of someone else burning MY flag.
RE: Baadbill  
baadbill : 8/28/2016 10:22 am : link
In comment 13090833 Big Al said:
Quote:
has been the best and most correct poster throughout this thread.


Thanks Al. But I think there have been many of us basically saying the same thing.
RE: ==========  
pjcas18 : 8/28/2016 10:53 am : link
In comment 13090826 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:


Quote:


I'm personally not a big fan of service members taking it upon
RC02XX : 10:01 am : link : reply
Themselves to somehow act like authoritative defenders of the ideals of patriotism. What they did is great and admirable, but society shouldn't just differ to them when it comes to the meaning of being patriotic. Everyone has equal say in what is and isn't patriotic as long as they understand and adhere to the basic tenets of the Constitution and at least respect others' right to act accordingly.

The worst thing we can do is to enforce a specific notion or image of patriotism with threat of violence. You can be annoyed by and even pity others for not expressing similar level of reverence for various symbols of this nation and patriotism that you may feel, but to go beyond that and lose your shit over it seems just wrong.


I don't always agree with Ronnie, but that has more to do with my love of shirts. However, this post here is how I'd like to imagine my feelings would be if I had been a service member myself.


Ronnie hates shirts? He seems like a shirt lover.
Kap's actions aren't how I'd approach it  
pganut : 8/28/2016 11:46 am : link
I'd certainly stand for the anthem, but that's my view. He's entitled to his, no matter how we may disagree with him. It's one of the great things this country was founded on, period.

What I scratch my head about is when did Kaepernick even develop the inkling that he is or should be a voice for the masses? Did anyone say, "man, what would Kap do? I need his opinion here.". He's not exactly the world changing catalyst one would expect people to rally 'round. So is he simply trying to use the very little currency of celebrity he has to make himself seem more indispensable to a dwindling personal fanbase, or is he burning the last goodwill the league may afford him as a declining football player?
RE: Kap's actions aren't how I'd approach it  
Big Blue '56 : 8/28/2016 11:49 am : link
In comment 13090968 pganut said:
Quote:
I'd certainly stand for the anthem, but that's my view. He's entitled to his, no matter how we may disagree with him. It's one of the great things this country was founded on, period.

What I scratch my head about is when did Kaepernick even develop the inkling that he is or should be a voice for the masses? Did anyone say, "man, what would Kap do? I need his opinion here.". He's not exactly the world changing catalyst one would expect people to rally 'round. So is he simply trying to use the very little currency of celebrity he has to make himself seem more indispensable to a dwindling personal fanbase, or is he burning the last goodwill the league may afford him as a declining football player?


And yet, this is a nation that oft times is rapt with anything that comes out of a Kardashian mouth other than a co*k..
RE: RE: Kap's actions aren't how I'd approach it  
Big Al : 8/28/2016 12:19 pm : link
In comment 13090974 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13090968 pganut said:


Quote:


I'd certainly stand for the anthem, but that's my view. He's entitled to his, no matter how we may disagree with him. It's one of the great things this country was founded on, period.

What I scratch my head about is when did Kaepernick even develop the inkling that he is or should be a voice for the masses? Did anyone say, "man, what would Kap do? I need his opinion here.". He's not exactly the world changing catalyst one would expect people to rally 'round. So is he simply trying to use the very little currency of celebrity he has to make himself seem more indispensable to a dwindling personal fanbase, or is he burning the last goodwill the league may afford him as a declining football player?



And yet, this is a nation that oft times is rapt with anything that comes out of a Kardashian mouth other than a co*k..
What did the Kardashians get on the wonderlic ?
RE: RE: RE: Kap's actions aren't how I'd approach it  
Big Blue '56 : 8/28/2016 12:21 pm : link
In comment 13091017 Big Al said:
Quote:
In comment 13090974 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13090968 pganut said:


Quote:


I'd certainly stand for the anthem, but that's my view. He's entitled to his, no matter how we may disagree with him. It's one of the great things this country was founded on, period.

What I scratch my head about is when did Kaepernick even develop the inkling that he is or should be a voice for the masses? Did anyone say, "man, what would Kap do? I need his opinion here.". He's not exactly the world changing catalyst one would expect people to rally 'round. So is he simply trying to use the very little currency of celebrity he has to make himself seem more indispensable to a dwindling personal fanbase, or is he burning the last goodwill the league may afford him as a declining football player?



And yet, this is a nation that oft times is rapt with anything that comes out of a Kardashian mouth other than a co*k..

What did the Kardashians get on the wonderlic ?


You mean wonderlick?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Kap's actions aren't how I'd approach it  
Big Al : 8/28/2016 12:30 pm : link
In comment 13091020 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13091017 Big Al said:


Quote:


In comment 13090974 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13090968 pganut said:


Quote:


I'd certainly stand for the anthem, but that's my view. He's entitled to his, no matter how we may disagree with him. It's one of the great things this country was founded on, period.

What I scratch my head about is when did Kaepernick even develop the inkling that he is or should be a voice for the masses? Did anyone say, "man, what would Kap do? I need his opinion here.". He's not exactly the world changing catalyst one would expect people to rally 'round. So is he simply trying to use the very little currency of celebrity he has to make himself seem more indispensable to a dwindling personal fanbase, or is he burning the last goodwill the league may afford him as a declining football player?



And yet, this is a nation that oft times is rapt with anything that comes out of a Kardashian mouth other than a co*k..

What did the Kardashians get on the wonderlic ?



You mean wonderlick?
Ha Ha. Dr. Blue made a dirty funny.
Is he sitting to protest  
xman : 8/28/2016 1:40 pm : link
historic human injustice like Spartacus or only injustice for American for blacks? Why linit it
Meanwhile....  
buford : 8/28/2016 2:24 pm : link



Follow

tara sullivan
‏@Record_Tara
Pretty deliberate sideline for the Giants during the anthem tonight. All players and staff standing.
...  
feelflows : 8/28/2016 2:53 pm : link
Go make your money playing in a country you like. Just like your coach, the league has figured you out anyway.

and for the record  
feelflows : 8/28/2016 3:16 pm : link
Obviously he has EVERY right to do/say what he did. So does everyone who criticizes him.

Everyone has choices. His choice is to continue living in a country he hates.
How many o the people here criticizing Kaep for disrespecting the flag  
David in LA : 8/28/2016 3:18 pm : link
probably will vote for the candidate that insulted a war hero in the senate?
Conversion to Islam  
sober297 : 8/28/2016 3:22 pm : link
Kap just wants to bring attention to his conversion to Islam(at the request of his finance').
Anti-America, whitey hatin', no pork eatin' Islam.
RE: Reminds me of a typical celebrity  
sober297 : 8/28/2016 3:25 pm : link
In comment 13090800 feelflows said:
Quote:
"this country sucks....be right back after I count my millions"

Exactly! if I hated a place so much, and I had the resources to relocate to a more open and accepting place, why stay here and be miserable? the only logical reason is his personal cowardice.
RE: Conversion to Islam  
Big Blue '56 : 8/28/2016 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13091282 sober297 said:
Quote:
Kap just wants to bring attention to his conversion to Islam(at the request of his finance').
Anti-America, whitey hatin', no pork eatin' Islam.


And this was necessary because?
RE: How many o the people here criticizing Kaep for disrespecting the flag  
UConn4523 : 8/28/2016 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13091277 David in LA said:
Quote:
probably will vote for the candidate that insulted a war hero in the senate?


I think this is a shitty move by Kaep and I'm not voting for either shitty candidate. There's many ways to stand up for something you believe in but this is cowardly.
Uconn, that's certainly your prerogative  
David in LA : 8/28/2016 3:35 pm : link
I'm not voting for either shitty candidate either. I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy in logic of certain political zealots when speaking on this matter.

You can't talk about respecting the flag when some people are definitely voting for the candidate that disrespected a highly decorated officer, and a prisoner of war.
Sober what are your thoughts on Muhammad Ali?  
David in LA : 8/28/2016 3:35 pm : link
.
One fact no one has mentioned here  
Greg from LI : 8/28/2016 4:03 pm : link
Which gives lie to the notion of Kaepernick as some kind of deep thinker - the clown was wearing a Fidel Castro shirt during his interview. Clearly, this is a man acutely affected by oppression and dedicated to fighting it in all its forms!
I enjoy reading theses threads...  
RC02XX : 8/28/2016 4:03 pm : link
The amount of anger spewed in these posts feeds my soul.

Yes, yes...let the hate flow through you!
RE: One fact no one has mentioned here  
RC02XX : 8/28/2016 4:07 pm : link
In comment 13091340 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Which gives lie to the notion of Kaepernick as some kind of deep thinker - the clown was wearing a Fidel Castro shirt during his interview. Clearly, this is a man acutely affected by oppression and dedicated to fighting it in all its forms!


Hey! Fidel was a freedom fighter, duh!

In all seriousness though. Too many people are giving Kaepernick way too much credit at this point regarding his political stance and as a result going way out in defense of their notion of patriotism. He's an athlete who did something many of us don't agree with. Whoopty fucking doo. He's got the right to do no matter how shallow his understanding is of the issues. But the reaction is just as lame with all of those coming around to now get into the tired old "you can leave if you hate this country" or "how dare you disrespect those, who have fought to defend the flag" BS.

It really is making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I agree, I wouldn't make much of it  
Greg from LI : 8/28/2016 4:22 pm : link
But it's a trite, childish act that should be ignored. He doesn't deserve any praise for his supposed bravery - hell, the public outcry in the Bay Area would be louder if he had denigrated the hammer and sickle. He should be able to do whatever he wants, but I don't know why anyone would do him the favor of paying attention to his Sociology 102-level opinions.
All of you who are giving him credit  
chopperhatch : 8/28/2016 4:28 pm : link
"For doing the very thing this country allows you to do" really dont make any sense. He is exercising his right to show disrespect to a nation that allows him to protest and make 19 million a year? Huh? Maybe if he sat out the year to protest police brutality, or to speak against those holding up signs that say "pigs under a blanket" or "fry like bacon" or perhaps organize community events that bring blacks and whites together to maybe bridge the gap a little bit.

His action was the epitome of ignorance and his statement was childish and stupid. I hope he loses his job and is relegated to obscurity as a back up until he goes away for good the fucking loser.
I think we need to remember that  
bubba0825 : 8/28/2016 4:29 pm : link
Kaepernick isn't the brightest crayon in the box, even for a pro athlete.
RE: RE: One fact no one has mentioned here  
chopperhatch : 8/28/2016 4:33 pm : link
In comment 13091344 RC02XX said:
Quote:
In comment 13091340 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Which gives lie to the notion of Kaepernick as some kind of deep thinker - the clown was wearing a Fidel Castro shirt during his interview. Clearly, this is a man acutely affected by oppression and dedicated to fighting it in all its forms!



Hey! Fidel was a freedom fighter, duh!

In all seriousness though. Too many people are giving Kaepernick way too much credit at this point regarding his political stance and as a result going way out in defense of their notion of patriotism. He's an athlete who did something many of us don't agree with. Whoopty fucking doo. He's got the right to do no matter how shallow his understanding is of the issues. But the reaction is just as lame with all of those coming around to now get into the tired old "you can leave if you hate this country" or "how dare you disrespect those, who have fought to defend the flag" BS.

It really is making a mountain out of a mole hill.


But if he doesnt like the way the way things are going in this country, leaving is really the only form of protest. If he leaves, the government loses is out on his income tax and taxes on any purchases hes made.

His move was about as disingenuous a gesture as there is. And yes, he SHOULD leave because Im going to guess that 90+ % of the people in this country are proud of it and would not do what he did if it afforded him the privilege of being a multimillionaire for two years of good work.
BTW, according to his Wiki page, he had a 4.0 GPA in high school,  
Jim in Hoboken : 8/28/2016 4:38 pm : link
while lettering in 3 sports, and has a Bible verse tattooed on his right arm.

Still, I wish he'd get cut so that nobody'd pay any attention to what he has to say.

While I don't think you have to personally experience something in order to protest against it, and I have no ways of knowing if he was discriminated against or not, but he was raised by white parents, after being abandoned by his African American father. I'm sure the awkwardness of being raised in a white family with his skin was distressing, but there are so many things from his upbringing and particular background he could choose to speak out about, but he chose this.

What kind of oppression did he get aside from curious stares? He could've chosen to serve his race/community much better by speaking out against African American children born to out of wedlock parents. Instead, he decided to do this. I guess this topic is more controversial and more noteworthy.

Well, I hope he's enjoying the attention he's getting now. I can't wait to hear him complain that he got cut because society doesn't like black quarterbacks.
My two cents  
Montreal Man : 8/28/2016 4:39 pm : link
What I find stupid about stunts like Kapernick's and those who burn flags is that they're SOOOOO easy to do. It costs nothing, requires no effort and once they're done NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

Kap, how about taking some of your money and subsidize a couple of inner city kids to good educations? That's changing things. There's a millionaire in Orlando who's been doing just that -- his name is Harris Rosen. Haven't heard of him, have you Kap? That's because he's DOING something quietly and effectively. And there's George Weiss who, ten years ago, promised 69 second graders that if they finished high school, he'd pay their college tuition. Forty six have done it, many on their way to good careers or the military. Kap, have you heard of this guy? Of course not. He just does things.

I am so EFFIN' tired of celebrities and guilt ridden white liberals opening their fat mouths about a social issue and then go back to their TV's, doing NOTHING to back up their bullshit.

Vent over.
RE: I agree, I wouldn't make much of it  
RC02XX : 8/28/2016 4:46 pm : link
In comment 13091356 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But it's a trite, childish act that should be ignored. He doesn't deserve any praise for his supposed bravery - hell, the public outcry in the Bay Area would be louder if he had denigrated the hammer and sickle. He should be able to do whatever he wants, but I don't know why anyone would do him the favor of paying attention to his Sociology 102-level opinions.


I agree...it's lame, but that doesn't mean that he should apologize or leave the country or be threatens physically because of it.
RE: RE: RE: One fact no one has mentioned here  
RC02XX : 8/28/2016 4:51 pm : link
In comment 13091369 chopperhatch said:
Quote:
In comment 13091344 RC02XX said:


Quote:


In comment 13091340 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Which gives lie to the notion of Kaepernick as some kind of deep thinker - the clown was wearing a Fidel Castro shirt during his interview. Clearly, this is a man acutely affected by oppression and dedicated to fighting it in all its forms!



Hey! Fidel was a freedom fighter, duh!

In all seriousness though. Too many people are giving Kaepernick way too much credit at this point regarding his political stance and as a result going way out in defense of their notion of patriotism. He's an athlete who did something many of us don't agree with. Whoopty fucking doo. He's got the right to do no matter how shallow his understanding is of the issues. But the reaction is just as lame with all of those coming around to now get into the tired old "you can leave if you hate this country" or "how dare you disrespect those, who have fought to defend the flag" BS.

It really is making a mountain out of a mole hill.



But if he doesnt like the way the way things are going in this country, leaving is really the only form of protest. If he leaves, the government loses is out on his income tax and taxes on any purchases hes made.

His move was about as disingenuous a gesture as there is. And yes, he SHOULD leave because Im going to guess that 90+ % of the people in this country are proud of it and would not do what he did if it afforded him the privilege of being a multimillionaire for two years of good work.


Disingenuous or not, what many of us are stating isn't that we praise his actions or motives. However, we are stating that his actions should not garner such embarrassing level of hate espoused by some on this thread as well as outside of BBI. People's reactions are just lame as this action by Kaepernick, but as he has every right to do so, I guess so do everyone have in telling him to leave or that they'll beat his ass. They're both embarrassing, nonetheless.
RE: Only in America  
BMac : 8/28/2016 5:30 pm : link
In comment 13090659 LeonofKiev said:
Quote:
can bullshit like this be rationalized.
I'm almost speechless....


If only you could complete the process.
RE: Conversion to Islam  
buford : 8/28/2016 5:53 pm : link
In comment 13091282 sober297 said:
Quote:
Kap just wants to bring attention to his conversion to Islam(at the request of his finance').
Anti-America, whitey hatin', no pork eatin' Islam.


So he's doing it to get laid?

I can dig that.
Kaepernick sucks...  
Sarcastic Sam : 8/28/2016 5:58 pm : link
He even got benched during the national anthem.
RE: My two cents  
baadbill : 8/28/2016 5:59 pm : link
In comment 13091376 Montreal Man said:
Quote:
... I am so EFFIN' tired of celebrities and guilt ridden white liberals opening their fat mouths about a social issue and then go back to their TV's, doing NOTHING to back up their bullshit.


I'm curious. Who are the guilt ridden white liberals? And I suppose confederate flag waiving conservatives are all ok because God knows they are all "action" people?

The nice thing about democracy is that political speech isn't burdened with any requirement to do anything to be entitled to have a voice. Political free speech is what separates this country from the rest of the world. People who want to restrict free speech are bigger threats to this country than Kaepernick ever will be.
I don't always agree with baadbill, but he's  
Wuphat : 8/28/2016 6:27 pm : link
killing it here
Montreal Man knows nothing about what Kaepernick  
Mr. Bungle : 8/28/2016 6:35 pm : link
does with his money.

Nothing.
RE: Montreal Man knows nothing about what Kaepernick  
David in LA : 8/28/2016 7:52 pm : link
In comment 13091500 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
does with his money.

Nothing.


I was about to ask if MM took the time to research any of CK's off field endeavors. Not claiming that I know myself, but it just seems like an off the cuff comment.
RE: RE: My two cents  
chopperhatch : 8/28/2016 9:45 pm : link
In comment 13091460 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13091376 Montreal Man said:


Quote:


... I am so EFFIN' tired of celebrities and guilt ridden white liberals opening their fat mouths about a social issue and then go back to their TV's, doing NOTHING to back up their bullshit.



I'm curious. Who are the guilt ridden white liberals? And I suppose confederate flag waiving conservatives are all ok because God knows they are all "action" people?

The nice thing about democracy is that political speech isn't burdened with any requirement to do anything to be entitled to have a voice. Political free speech is what separates this country from the rest of the world. People who want to restrict free speech are bigger threats to this country than Kaepernick ever will be.


Lol, WUT? There are plenty of free countries that have celebrities who
dont pull meaningless shit like this for attention. They talk about it and raise awareness but don't pull twitter-feeding horseshit maneuvers like this to get attention.


Who are the Confederate flag waiving conservatives?
.  
David in LA : 8/28/2016 9:47 pm : link
RE: RE: Montreal Man knows nothing about what Kaepernick  
chopperhatch : 8/28/2016 9:51 pm : link
In comment 13091572 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13091500 Mr. Bungle said:


Quote:


does with his money.

Nothing.



I was about to ask if MM took the time to research any of CK's off field endeavors. Not claiming that I know myself, but it just seems like an off the cuff comment.


So far as I know he hosts a golf tournament (played in by celebrities and whose donations are 100% tax deductible) that raised 900k to Heart Disease research. Still 18.1 million that didnt go into improving,inner city schools, youth programs outside of schools, inner city athletic facilities to keep them off the streets...those are just a couple things he could have spent ten times what he raised for heart disease, made much more of a difference and not looked like a douche.

He's an ignorant, ungrateful douche.
RE: .  
chopperhatch : 8/28/2016 9:53 pm : link
In comment 13091663 David in LA said:
Quote:



You want me to sing Dixie? ;-)
I don't have a high opinion of CK, but I don't get why so many  
David in LA : 8/28/2016 9:53 pm : link
come off as so personally insulted by him choosing to sit down. His employer seems to be ok with it.
That's a BS take  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/28/2016 10:16 pm : link
"Well he made X so he should give 80% of that away."

C'mon, that's nonsense.
Chopper  
baadbill : 8/28/2016 10:24 pm : link
If you understood the country you live in, you'd understand the issue isn't about Kaepernick. He may be a douche. He made have abhorrent views. The issue is - if we get to shut him up - then we get to shut you up too.
RE: I don't have a high opinion of CK, but I don't get why so many  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/28/2016 10:24 pm : link
In comment 13091671 David in LA said:
Quote:
come off as so personally insulted by him choosing to sit down. His employer seems to be ok with it.


There's frankly nothing wrong with what he did. It's baffling to see the outrage at someone making use of their rights as a citizen. And yeah, you have the right to criticise him for what he's doing, but why are we criticising someone for making himself heard against a very real problem?
RE: BTW, according to his Wiki page, he had a 4.0 GPA in high school,  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/28/2016 10:30 pm : link
In comment 13091375 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
while lettering in 3 sports, and has a Bible verse tattooed on his right arm.

Still, I wish he'd get cut so that nobody'd pay any attention to what he has to say.

While I don't think you have to personally experience something in order to protest against it, and I have no ways of knowing if he was discriminated against or not, but he was raised by white parents, after being abandoned by his African American father. I'm sure the awkwardness of being raised in a white family with his skin was distressing, but there are so many things from his upbringing and particular background he could choose to speak out about, but he chose this.

What kind of oppression did he get aside from curious stares? He could've chosen to serve his race/community much better by speaking out against African American children born to out of wedlock parents. Instead, he decided to do this. I guess this topic is more controversial and more noteworthy.

Well, I hope he's enjoying the attention he's getting now. I can't wait to hear him complain that he got cut because society doesn't like black quarterbacks.


Never knew he was abandoned by his biological parents and raised by another family. Interesting.
RE: That's a BS take  
Bill L : 8/28/2016 10:32 pm : link
In comment 13091696 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
"Well he made X so he should give 80% of that away."

C'mon, that's nonsense.
what's kind of funny is that I know more than a couple people who would agree that's nonsense and then in the same conversation say "Well, he made X so the govt should take 80% of that away".
He can do what he wants  
PatersonPlank : 8/28/2016 10:34 pm : link
However, in my personal opinion, I disagree with him (which is my right also). If he wants to do something about the specific issue he mentioned then get involved and try. To me though, the national anthem thing says "All America is bad", not I have an issue with police violence in the colored community. America is a great country that has given him an opportunity to be a huge success (which he took). My other point here is I still don't know what he wants. Is he of the mindset that its all the cops fault? Is he going to stand next week, so this was a one week thing? What improvements does he think he has to see to stand up (which may not happen)? Etc.
I have zero  
Mike in Marin : 8/28/2016 10:45 pm : link
problems with his methods, but based on his blanket condemnations, it is certainly in poor taste. He deserves to be soundly criticized in the court of public opinion, because his stance has very little credibility when he condemns an entire country for the actions of a tiny minority.

Still, as many here have argued, his right to protest should be defended to the last stand.

I look forward to reading more and hearing what he will say to see whether he redeems himself as far as reason and moral clarity are concerned, or doubles down on what seems to be his full swallowing of demagoguery du jour.
RE: Chopper  
chopperhatch : 8/28/2016 10:46 pm : link
In comment 13091701 baadbill said:
Quote:
If you understood the country you live in, you'd understand the issue isn't about Kaepernick. He may be a douche. He made have abhorrent views. The issue is - if we get to shut him up - then we get to shut you up too.


Not once did I say "shut him up"...I do think he should be publicly admonished for his shitty form of "protest." Which, let's be frank, really didnt hit the nail on the head did it? Are people talking about him standing up to this racist machine, or his feeble attempt to garner attention?
RE: He can do what he wants  
J : 8/28/2016 10:46 pm : link
In comment 13091706 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
However, in my personal opinion, I disagree with him (which is my right also). If he wants to do something about the specific issue he mentioned then get involved and try. To me though, the national anthem thing says "All America is bad", not I have an issue with police violence in the colored community. America is a great country that has given him an opportunity to be a huge success (which he took). My other point here is I still don't know what he wants. Is he of the mindset that its all the cops fault? Is he going to stand next week, so this was a one week thing? What improvements does he think he has to see to stand up (which may not happen)? Etc.


I read that he sat for the anthem for the other 2 preseason games, but no one who gets outraged at this sort of thing noticed
RE: That's a BS take  
chopperhatch : 8/28/2016 10:51 pm : link
In comment 13091696 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
"Well he made X so he should give 80% of that away."

C'mon, that's nonsense.


Its really not. I was merely pointing out that if he thinks change should happen, he has plenty of resources to....you know, actually make it happen. I am no socialist. But before disrespecting the country's symbol and getting people who arent even racists, pissed off, how bout showing so.e initiative?

You guys are not this naive. Even the most left of you. This is the definition of a straw man argument and many of you look foolish defending it.

Yes it was his right...it's not like he went to jaim or was charged. So just stop saying that. It is the method and mode of his "protest" that I question.

I respected the guy at first, but thinking this is quintessential pathetic, pussy ass acting out behind the wall of celebrity. Fuck him qnd he should have been left by the curb.
Chopper  
baadbill : 8/28/2016 10:59 pm : link
You certainly have the right to dislike him. For his views and for how he presents them. The very best political speech is to ostracize people who have abhorrent views. So, go for it.

My only point is I consider it unamerican to get worked up over the burning of the flag; or the refusal to stand for the national anthem, recite the pledge of allegiance, etc. Dislike his views but don't take away the very thing that makes America great - the fact we allow assholes to be assholes publicly. The fact we even go so far as to allow Americans to vilify America and her symbols. Take that away from my country and you take my country with it.
I'll preface this by saying that  
Ned In Atlanta : 8/29/2016 3:06 am : link
I don't agree with CK and I believe everyone should remove their hats and show respect

With that being said, let me get this straight...

Not standing for the National Anthem as an expression of free speech/protest = not ok

Refusing to bake a cake for a gay person is totally fine if its against your religion?

RE: I'll preface this by saying that  
madgiantscow009 : 8/29/2016 3:33 am : link
In comment 13091788 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
I don't agree with CK and I believe everyone should remove their hats and show respect

With that being said, let me get this straight...

Not standing for the National Anthem as an expression of free speech/protest = not ok

Refusing to bake a cake for a gay person is totally fine if its against your religion?


I think most people are against his actions and logic, but defend his right to do them, but also defend the right of his employers to act accordingly.

So, I don't think you have it straight, but maybe you want to feel righteous.
You know what?  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 4:20 am : link
If he actually has donated a decent amount of his 19M to the cause he claims to be supporting he might be legit with his stance. But the fact is he has not made any kind of personal sacrifice himself other than being a pretentious attention whore with this.

I hate someone who goes through the motions with the obvious intent to draw attention to themselves more then the cause the claim to be behind
RE: RE: I'll preface this by saying that  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 4:28 am : link
In comment 13091789 madgiantscow009 said:
Quote:
In comment 13091788 Ned In Atlanta said:


Quote:


I don't agree with CK and I believe everyone should remove their hats and show respect

With that being said, let me get this straight...

Not standing for the National Anthem as an expression of free speech/protest = not ok

Refusing to bake a cake for a gay person is totally fine if its against your religion?




I think most people are against his actions and logic, but defend his right to do them, but also defend the right of his employers to act accordingly.

So, I don't think you have it straight, but maybe you want to feel righteous.


His employer put out a statement, they're ok with it.
RE: You know what?  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 4:30 am : link
In comment 13091793 montanagiant said:
Quote:
If he actually has donated a decent amount of his 19M to the cause he claims to be supporting he might be legit with his stance. But the fact is he has not made any kind of personal sacrifice himself other than being a pretentious attention whore with this.

I hate someone who goes through the motions with the obvious intent to draw attention to themselves more then the cause the claim to be behind


Dumb. It's not up to you to deem what amount of someone else's salary needs to be given to a cause for his stance to be deemed acceptable.
RE: RE: You know what?  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 4:37 am : link
In comment 13091795 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13091793 montanagiant said:


Quote:


If he actually has donated a decent amount of his 19M to the cause he claims to be supporting he might be legit with his stance. But the fact is he has not made any kind of personal sacrifice himself other than being a pretentious attention whore with this.

I hate someone who goes through the motions with the obvious intent to draw attention to themselves more then the cause the claim to be behind



Dumb. It's not up to you to deem what amount of someone else's salary needs to be given to a cause for his stance to be deemed acceptable.

LOL...Sure it is when i put forth an opinion on what I believe. You want to call out a population on their sacrifice, show me your sacrifice first. His sacrifice was plopping his ass, if this was such an issue to him why was this the first public showing of it? If he really wanted to make a statement why not do it when he actually was relevant instead of waiting until now?
Who are you to talk about what some other man is supposed to do with  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 4:40 am : link
their money? That's an awful sense of entitlement and owner ship coming from another man speaking of what should be done with someone else's money.
RE: You know what?  
J : 8/29/2016 4:40 am : link
In comment 13091793 montanagiant said:
Quote:
If he actually has donated a decent amount of his 19M to the cause he claims to be supporting he might be legit with his stance. But the fact is he has not made any kind of personal sacrifice himself other than being a pretentious attention whore with this.

I hate someone who goes through the motions with the obvious intent to draw attention to themselves more then the cause the claim to be behind


different spectrum, but reminds of the ALS ice bucket challenge... a bunch of celebrities participated, but I wonder how much was actually donated... I'm sure some donated large sums
RE: Who are you to talk about what some other man is supposed to do with  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 4:49 am : link
In comment 13091799 David in LA said:
Quote:
their money? That's an awful sense of entitlement and owner ship coming from another man speaking of what should be done with someone else's money.

So then illustrate us all with the other personal sacrifices HE has made regarding this issue. It should be an easy thing to show if in fact this is an problem he personally has taken issue with. You can't because as of right now CK's personal sacrifice has been to sit down while talking a big game, and nothing more then drawing attention to himself.

You can claim all you want that no one can judge him, but the fact remains that as of right now he has not done one thing personally to solidify the stance he has taken, its nothing more than lip service at this point. Make a personal sacrifice, don't just talk about it
Not standing up for the anthem isn't anything new  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 4:52 am : link
He's been doing this since the first preseason game this year. What kind of person puts a dollar amount on the price of exercising their right? Thought that shit was free. But I guess exercising a free right comes with a lot on the checklist.

1) Are you a good enough spokesperson for this cause? (Made too much money? Quit yer complaining!)
2) Are you directly suffering from said oppression? (as if you can't voice a grievance unless it directly affects you)
3) I'm going to go ahead and question your motives behind your protest, anyways. You should spend more money to prove to me you're sincere about exercising your free right.
Not quite "sarificey" enough for me  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 4:53 am : link
-Montana
RE: RE: You know what?  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 4:53 am : link
In comment 13091800 J said:
Quote:
In comment 13091793 montanagiant said:


Quote:


If he actually has donated a decent amount of his 19M to the cause he claims to be supporting he might be legit with his stance. But the fact is he has not made any kind of personal sacrifice himself other than being a pretentious attention whore with this.

I hate someone who goes through the motions with the obvious intent to draw attention to themselves more then the cause the claim to be behind



different spectrum, but reminds of the ALS ice bucket challenge... a bunch of celebrities participated, but I wonder how much was actually donated... I'm sure some donated large sums

It does not have to be just money, it could be charitable events, speaking engagements, foundations he helps that support this issue, etc...Hell he could do free Football clinics at the very least. Unfortunately he has not done one of those things, the only sacrifice he has made is sitting on his ass. Don't talk it, walk it.
RE: Not quite  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 4:54 am : link
In comment 13091803 David in LA said:
Quote:
-Montana

Don't really have anything to show he is really all about this, so let me type "Sacrifcey" and hope that works...Please!!!!

~ Dave
kind of telling that more people are so personally offended by this  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 4:56 am : link
but will bend over backwards to just dismiss all the repeated red flags on Josh Brown.
RE: Not standing up for the anthem isn't anything new  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 4:56 am : link
In comment 13091802 David in LA said:
Quote:
He's been doing this since the first preseason game this year. What kind of person puts a dollar amount on the price of exercising their right? Thought that shit was free. But I guess exercising a free right comes with a lot on the checklist.

1) Are you a good enough spokesperson for this cause? (Made too much money? Quit yer complaining!)
2) Are you directly suffering from said oppression? (as if you can't voice a grievance unless it directly affects you)
3) I'm going to go ahead and question your motives behind your protest, anyways. You should spend more money to prove to me you're sincere about exercising your free right.

Well fuck it, he has sat for 3 preseason games, he is all in then...Thanks for proving my point that his biggest effort for the cause is getting a good rest
RE: kind of telling that more people are so personally offended by this  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 5:01 am : link
In comment 13091806 David in LA said:
Quote:
but will bend over backwards to just dismiss all the repeated red flags on Josh Brown.

Great false equivalency, really makes your point
Very odd double standard  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 5:03 am : link
that CK needs to prove himself to show sincerity behind a cause. There's also an awful lot of paternalism involved in making proclamations that someone else needs to invest more of their money.
RE: RE: kind of telling that more people are so personally offended by this  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 5:05 am : link
In comment 13091808 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 13091806 David in LA said:


Quote:


but will bend over backwards to just dismiss all the repeated red flags on Josh Brown.


Great false equivalency, really makes your point


Josh Brown has a pattern of repeated history that suggests he beats his wife. CK exercised a free right. The level of outrage on your end is backwards.

Better Sang that Anthem Boy!
RE: Chopper  
buford : 8/29/2016 6:38 am : link
In comment 13091726 baadbill said:
Quote:
You certainly have the right to dislike him. For his views and for how he presents them. The very best political speech is to ostracize people who have abhorrent views. So, go for it.

My only point is I consider it unamerican to get worked up over the burning of the flag; or the refusal to stand for the national anthem, recite the pledge of allegiance, etc. Dislike his views but don't take away the very thing that makes America great - the fact we allow assholes to be assholes publicly. The fact we even go so far as to allow Americans to vilify America and her symbols. Take that away from my country and you take my country with it.


No, it's not un-American to get worked up over burning the flag etc. It would be to try to outlaw it. But that is a completely different thing. Telling people they can't criticize or get worked up over it is stifling their free speech. You can vilify America and you can vilify the people who do that.
Buford  
baadbill : 8/29/2016 7:30 am : link
In comment 13091815 buford said:
Quote:
In comment 13091726 baadbill said:


Quote:


You certainly have the right to dislike him. For his views and for how he presents them. The very best political speech is to ostracize people who have abhorrent views. So, go for it.

My only point is I consider it unamerican to get worked up over the burning of the flag; or the refusal to stand for the national anthem, recite the pledge of allegiance, etc. Dislike his views but don't take away the very thing that makes America great - the fact we allow assholes to be assholes publicly. The fact we even go so far as to allow Americans to vilify America and her symbols. Take that away from my country and you take my country with it.


----------
Buford said:
No, it's not un-American to get worked up over burning the flag etc. It would be to try to outlaw it. But that is a completely different thing. Telling people they can't criticize or get worked up over it is stifling their free speech. You can vilify America and you can vilify the people who do that.


You're right of course.

There is a huge difference between the government restricting free speech by passing a law making it illegal to fail to respect an American symbol versus Americans expressing their personal disapproval (which is as American as it gets). I was wrong in that chacterization.

Having said that, honoring the form of protest of someone refusing to salute the flag (or similar actions) is the ultimate demonstration of our country's principles. Attacking that form of protest shows a failure to appreciate the importance of free speech as the very foundation of our freedoms. Attacking the form of speech (not saluting the flag) rather than the content of speech (whatever it is Kaepernick is trying to say) is dangerous imo. Attacking a failure to salute the flag (or stand for the anthem, or recite the pledge of allegiance) is an attempt to force compulsory honor of national symbols. I can't think of anything more abhorrent and is how North Korea or Iran and other police states operate.
Great post  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/29/2016 7:41 am : link
As Alanis would say.......
RE: RE: You know what?  
Bill L : 8/29/2016 7:58 am : link
In comment 13091795 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13091793 montanagiant said:


Quote:


If he actually has donated a decent amount of his 19M to the cause he claims to be supporting he might be legit with his stance. But the fact is he has not made any kind of personal sacrifice himself other than being a pretentious attention whore with this.

I hate someone who goes through the motions with the obvious intent to draw attention to themselves more then the cause the claim to be behind



Dumb. It's not up to you to deem what amount of someone else's salary needs to be given to a cause for his stance to be deemed acceptable.
Hey, that's our tax structure.
RE: Who are you to talk about what some other man is supposed to do with  
Bill L : 8/29/2016 7:58 am : link
In comment 13091799 David in LA said:
Quote:
their money? That's an awful sense of entitlement and owner ship coming from another man speaking of what should be done with someone else's money.
Actually, this is a better example of it.
RE: Buford  
section125 : 8/29/2016 7:59 am : link
In comment 13091827 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13091815 buford said:


Quote:
There is a huge difference between the government restricting free speech by passing a law making it illegal to fail to respect an American symbol versus Americans expressing their personal disapproval (which is as American as it gets). I was wrong in that chacterization.

Having said that, honoring the form of protest of someone refusing to salute the flag (or similar actions) is the ultimate demonstration of our country's principles. Attacking that form of protest shows a failure to appreciate the importance of free speech as the very foundation of our freedoms. Attacking the form of speech (not saluting the flag) rather than the content of speech (whatever it is Kaepernick is trying to say) is dangerous imo. Attacking a failure to salute the flag (or stand for the anthem, or recite the pledge of allegiance) is an attempt to force compulsory honor of national symbols. I can't think of anything more abhorrent and is how North Korea or Iran and other police states operate.


Catch 22 - it is not right to limit CK's right to make a protest.
Therefore, it is also not right to attack people calling him out for said protest.
Has to be a two way street. What makes his protest more important than those protesting his protest?
RE: Great post  
Bill L : 8/29/2016 8:06 am : link
In comment 13091830 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
As Alanis would say.......
Except that at the end he went back to confuse individuals with the State.

And, he's essentially saying that he's for free speech but only when it's the "right" kind of speech. He's wrong, IMO, in that speech is speech. CK's protest and the response are not qualitatively different. Well, in one sense they are different. In the sense that there is no real relationship between the focus of what CK is protesting for (whatever it is) and the vehicle he chooses to use for his protest versus how the responders. The latter are interpreting it overly broadly..."CK hates America" whereas the former treats it like Lent, doing something, anything, and attributing it to the cause in his head. He might as well have stopped eating potato chips for all the relationship it has to anything specific.
Thank you, Colin Kaepernick...  
Klaatu : 8/29/2016 8:21 am : link
For giving Mike Florio and the rest of the football/sports media something to talk about other than the Josh Brown situation.
RE: Chopper  
Montreal Man : 8/29/2016 8:24 am : link
In comment 13091701 baadbill said:
Quote:
If you understood the country you live in, you'd understand the issue isn't about Kaepernick. He may be a douche. He made have abhorrent views. The issue is - if we get to shut him up - then we get to shut you up too.


Nobody is talking about shutting him up. This is a tangent this thread has taken.

Personally, I'm saying that what he's doing is nothing more than a stunt. Like Lena Dunham or Alec Baldwin saying they'll leave the country if this person or that person is elected resident. Big whoop. It's meaningless B.S. that accomplishes NOTHING to directly help the people he says are being victimized.

No, I don't know what he does with his money. Chopper mentioned a golf tournament or some such event -- big effin' deal. He's not protesting that inner city kids don't have enough golf courses or clubs. He's protesting real bad conditions in the black and/or brown community that are chronic and exacerbated by isolated problems with the police, conditions that -- okay, as far as I know -- he hasn't done s**t about and yet he sets himself up as a symbolic representative of what's wrong with the country.

He's doing EASY, EASY, EASY protesting stuff and inflicting it on the rest of us. Some of us like it, some don't, but nobody says he CAN'T do it. All he's done is create a publicity furor (surprise!!!!!) while poor kids are still going to bad schools and roaming the streets because they haven't got real opportunities to better themselves.

Do something about THAT, CK, then sitting makes sense and will be effective.
Well said, MM.  
Klaatu : 8/29/2016 8:35 am : link
I couldn't agree more.
For me..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/29/2016 8:37 am : link
I'm more disappointed that Kap has decided to take a stand on the wrong issues.

If he wants to protest police shootings, that his prerogative, but he shouldn't confuse those shootings with the concept of oppression.

To say that the flag stands for oppression as a black President is nearing the end of his second term is ridiculous. To say that the flag represents oppression as he takes the field with several minority millionaires flies in the face of logic.

Oppression means a concerted denying of rights. It means that minorities are actively overlooked in favor of whites. Oppression has nothing to do with his rants on police and the ridiculous statements that cosmetologists get more training than officers.

Putting aside all of the things I disagree with in his protest, I have a hard time getting past the fact that the guy really doesn't know what his protest means.
RE: BTW, according to his Wiki page, he had a 4.0 GPA in high school,  
njm : 8/29/2016 8:38 am : link
In comment 13091375 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
while lettering in 3 sports, and has a Bible verse tattooed on his right arm.

Still, I wish he'd get cut so that nobody'd pay any attention to what he has to say.

While I don't think you have to personally experience something in order to protest against it, and I have no ways of knowing if he was discriminated against or not, but he was raised by white parents, after being abandoned by his African American father. I'm sure the awkwardness of being raised in a white family with his skin was distressing, but there are so many things from his upbringing and particular background he could choose to speak out about, but he chose this.

What kind of oppression did he get aside from curious stares? He could've chosen to serve his race/community much better by speaking out against African American children born to out of wedlock parents. Instead, he decided to do this. I guess this topic is more controversial and more noteworthy.

Well, I hope he's enjoying the attention he's getting now. I can't wait to hear him complain that he got cut because society doesn't like black quarterbacks.


Word was he was getting recruited out of HS by Ivy schools but went to Nevada because their no athletic scholarship rules meant he couldn't get a full ride, only a partial need based grant.

My problem is more with the ignorance of his statements (no difference between the two flags) than the fact he protested. To get a 4.0, in light of those statements, he must have had a US history teacher who was a VERY easy grader.
I'm pretty sure  
UConn4523 : 8/29/2016 8:44 am : link
everyone on this thread who agrees or disagrees with going the route that CK took knows that he's free to say whatever he wants and I don't actually believe anyone is trying to silence him. Like everything else on BBI (or in the real world for that matter) this isn't a black and white scenario, its extremely grey.

If CK has a point to make, fine, can't stop you from "protesting" our nations anthem. But I think he owes an explanation other than "something needs to be done".

I saw a piece this morning on Dwyane Wade's mom who's a pastor and spoke out about her niece getting murdered in Chicago. She used the word "UNITY" as the focal point of her message. So why can't CK? Why can't he promote unity and not division? He plays a game where unity is the #1 factor of success. He was raised in a house that unified races. Instead we get "I will stand when I see progress is made"....what? What does that even mean? Is he going to help with that progress or just sit on the sideline until the work is done for him?

I hate how much attention he's gotten. He's a lousy player with, IMO, a lousy opinion on the troubling times we face day in and day out as a nation. He isn't helping anything.
MM,  
Big Blue '56 : 8/29/2016 8:45 am : link
bringing the fire...❤️
One more time  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/29/2016 8:52 am : link
It's unfortunate this isn't getting the attention it deserves which is ZERO
we're still talking about this?  
Greg from LI : 8/29/2016 8:52 am : link
Why? Give it the attention it deserves by ignoring him.
RE: One more time  
WideRight : 8/29/2016 8:57 am : link
In comment 13091898 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
It's unfortunate this isn't getting the attention it deserves which is ZERO


Yes. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more players and fans doing the same thing at the same time and got no mention whatsoever
It was an easy bottom line for me.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/29/2016 9:01 am : link
My Dad stood, so I stood..I then carried on the tradition. My kids decided they wanted to stand also. I would have been disappointed if they didn't, but ok with their right not to do so..
Montreal Man doubles down on the stupid.  
Mr. Bungle : 8/29/2016 9:11 am : link
"No, I don't know what Kaepernick does with his money. But he should do different things with his money than what he's doing!"

Good grief.
RE: For me..  
Bill L : 8/29/2016 9:23 am : link
In comment 13091876 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I'm more disappointed that Kap has decided to take a stand on the wrong issues.

If he wants to protest police shootings, that his prerogative, but he shouldn't confuse those shootings with the concept of oppression.

To say that the flag stands for oppression as a black President is nearing the end of his second term is ridiculous. To say that the flag represents oppression as he takes the field with several minority millionaires flies in the face of logic.

Oppression means a concerted denying of rights. It means that minorities are actively overlooked in favor of whites. Oppression has nothing to do with his rants on police and the ridiculous statements that cosmetologists get more training than officers.

Putting aside all of the things I disagree with in his protest, I have a hard time getting past the fact that the guy really doesn't know what his protest means.
For me, this is the crux of things. And, everything else stems from this basic misunderstanding on CK's part.
RE: I'm pretty sure  
RC02XX : 8/29/2016 9:34 am : link
In comment 13091889 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
everyone on this thread who agrees or disagrees with going the route that CK took knows that he's free to say whatever he wants and I don't actually believe anyone is trying to silence him. Like everything else on BBI (or in the real world for that matter) this isn't a black and white scenario, its extremely grey.

If CK has a point to make, fine, can't stop you from "protesting" our nations anthem. But I think he owes an explanation other than "something needs to be done".

I saw a piece this morning on Dwyane Wade's mom who's a pastor and spoke out about her niece getting murdered in Chicago. She used the word "UNITY" as the focal point of her message. So why can't CK? Why can't he promote unity and not division? He plays a game where unity is the #1 factor of success. He was raised in a house that unified races. Instead we get "I will stand when I see progress is made"....what? What does that even mean? Is he going to help with that progress or just sit on the sideline until the work is done for him?

I hate how much attention he's gotten. He's a lousy player with, IMO, a lousy opinion on the troubling times we face day in and day out as a nation. He isn't helping anything.


I agree. Everyone has the right to their opinion on this matter. And I don't begrudge anyone for thinking Kaepernick's actions were lame since I agree that it's lame.

However, there are two points that annoys me about this situation, more specifically in this thread:

1) Some of these military veterans posting about wanting to shut him down by kicking his ass. At no time does his actions deserve physical violence, and for people, who swore an oath to defend the Constitution, they should know better than what the Constitution stands for. The fact that these people (many of them pretty damn senior) want to take on the role of the self-appointed protectors and enforcers of the ideals of patriotism is not only embarrassing but in many ways scary to think about. The military is a servant of the people. They don't enforce patriotism but rather ensures that people can display their patriotism or lack thereof in any form they want as long as it's lawful. And then to use the tired-old "brave men and women have sacrificed for the flag" is insulting to anyone, who have worn the uniform. It's a catchy cliche that has no place in a stupid posts assailing someone for doing something that's lawful and in this case is something that shouldn't even be newsworthy.

2) The fact that people are giving him far more attention than he really deserves. As I've stated, I think what he's done is pretty lame. As Greg pointed out, I doubt that Kaeparnick really has thought this through beyond at a shallow level. As Fatman stated above (and as many have pointed out already), what is his angle? While I can respect his right to such a protest, I can also be critical of his actions and the motive behind it. Yet what's even more annoying than those is the fact that people are acting like this is a personal insult to them. Yes, everyone has the right to criticize him and ridicule him for it, but is it really worth it? He's some celebrity, who probably brings very little of substance to the issue. The less attention we give him and other celebrities, the better.
RE: Baadbill  
MetsAreBack : 8/29/2016 10:20 am : link
In comment 13090833 Big Al said:
Quote:
has been the best and most correct poster throughout this thread.



That's certainly a subjective opinion. There's been a lot of good thoughts posted throughout by many posters, and certainly some dumb mixed in too.

Bottom line i'm not sure an employee (last i checked, when you are in a football uniform standing in front of 60,000 customers - you are on the clock) has all these rights to freedom of expression so many here (including baadbill) are espousing. What Kaepernick does in his personal time - we all agree, he can do whatever the fuck he wants... but we all live under a different set of rules when in the workplace.

I'm not up to speed on the NFL code of conduct policies nor what the 49ers rights as employers going forward are however.

I do know if Kaepernick thinks loss of endorsements/job would prove "he was right" - reflects someone completely clueless with his own (lack of) ability spanning the past few seasons.

Personally if I sucked at my profession i'd be less concerned about making political statements while on the job... and more concerned with proving to my coaches and teammates that I belong.
RE: RE: Chopper  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 11:08 am : link
In comment 13091860 Montreal Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13091701 baadbill said:


Quote:


If you understood the country you live in, you'd understand the issue isn't about Kaepernick. He may be a douche. He made have abhorrent views. The issue is - if we get to shut him up - then we get to shut you up too.



Nobody is talking about shutting him up. This is a tangent this thread has taken.

Personally, I'm saying that what he's doing is nothing more than a stunt. Like Lena Dunham or Alec Baldwin saying they'll leave the country if this person or that person is elected resident. Big whoop. It's meaningless B.S. that accomplishes NOTHING to directly help the people he says are being victimized.

No, I don't know what he does with his money. Chopper mentioned a golf tournament or some such event -- big effin' deal. He's not protesting that inner city kids don't have enough golf courses or clubs. He's protesting real bad conditions in the black and/or brown community that are chronic and exacerbated by isolated problems with the police, conditions that -- okay, as far as I know -- he hasn't done s**t about and yet he sets himself up as a symbolic representative of what's wrong with the country.

He's doing EASY, EASY, EASY protesting stuff and inflicting it on the rest of us. Some of us like it, some don't, but nobody says he CAN'T do it. All he's done is create a publicity furor (surprise!!!!!) while poor kids are still going to bad schools and roaming the streets because they haven't got real opportunities to better themselves.

Do something about THAT, CK, then sitting makes sense and will be effective.

100% spot on
RE: RE: Baadbill  
Big Al : 8/29/2016 11:17 am : link
In comment 13092122 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
In comment 13090833 Big Al said:


Quote:


has been the best and most correct poster throughout this thread.




That's certainly a subjective opinion. There's been a lot of good thoughts posted throughout by many posters, and certainly some dumb mixed in too.

Bottom line i'm not sure an employee (last i checked, when you are in a football uniform standing in front of 60,000 customers - you are on the clock) has all these rights to freedom of expression so many here (including baadbill) are espousing. What Kaepernick does in his personal time - we all agree, he can do whatever the fuck he wants... but we all live under a different set of rules when in the workplace.

I'm not up to speed on the NFL code of conduct policies nor what the 49ers rights as employers going forward are however.

I do know if Kaepernick thinks loss of endorsements/job would prove "he was right" - reflects someone completely clueless with his own (lack of) ability spanning the past few seasons.

Personally if I sucked at my profession i'd be less concerned about making political statements while on the job... and more concerned with proving to my coaches and teammates that I belong.
Yes it is subjective but if you disagree with my thoughts or actions I will seek you out and punch you in the face.
So is there something that can be done?  
WideRight : 8/29/2016 11:18 am : link
Baseball got rid of streaking by turning the cameras away form the attention-seeker.

I'm pretty sure that would work here. CK can do what he wants and pursue his cause on his own time. Thats fine. The NFL can stop being his fool and we would be better off.
Even though they have improved, you have to be a troll  
kicker : 8/29/2016 11:28 am : link
to deny the quote serious inequality of opportunity issues in minority communities, as well as some pretty abhorrent statistics on profiling and arrests.

That said, CK is also a troll; this movement was DOA from the start, as it allows people to wrap themselves in a thin veneer of nationalism and ignore the greater issues.
RE: RE: RE: kind of telling that more people are so personally offended by this  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 11:30 am : link
In comment 13091810 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13091808 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 13091806 David in LA said:


Quote:


but will bend over backwards to just dismiss all the repeated red flags on Josh Brown.


Great false equivalency, really makes your point



Josh Brown has a pattern of repeated history that suggests he beats his wife. CK exercised a free right. The level of outrage on your end is backwards.

Better Sang that Anthem Boy!

What Josh Brown has done is one thing, what CK is doing is another. You trying to combine the two as one weak comparison is about as desperate an attempt as could be made to try to bolster your own argument. It's a false equivalency, and you're doing it because you don't have anything to show that this is nothing more than a stunt to call attention to himself.

Prior to this we:
Never once saw him mention this in an interview
Never once saw him write an op/ed regarding his concern with this issue
Never heard of him joining in with any peaceful protests regarding the issue

There is no question this is a major issue in this country right now, and everyone has the right in this country to express themselves within legal means such as sitting for 2 mins while it plays. Conversely, others have the same right to express their opinion over those actions, when the most this person has done regarding this issue is call attention to himself using it as a means. It rings hollow on his part, and it hinders the issue instead of helping it.
RE: RE: RE: Baadbill  
MetsAreBack : 8/29/2016 11:38 am : link
In comment 13092270 Big Al said:
Quote:


Yes it is subjective but if you disagree with my thoughts or actions I will seek you out and punch you in the face.



Well that sounds mature. And you could try - the end result is I either end up kicking your Internet toughguy ass, or you end up in court paying me restitution & punitive for the assault.
RE: Montreal Man doubles down on the stupid.  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 11:41 am : link
In comment 13091940 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
"No, I don't know what Kaepernick does with his money. But he should do different things with his money than what he's doing!"

Good grief.

You're missing the point. It could be money, volunteer work, editorials, etc... ANYTHING that involves actual effort and/or personal sacrifice on his part to aid the cause he claims to support. Until that happens this is lip service that takes the discussion into a different direction than the actual issue. He has made it about himself, not the problem.

RE: So is there something that can be done?  
njm : 8/29/2016 11:44 am : link
In comment 13092273 WideRight said:
Quote:
Baseball got rid of streaking by turning the cameras away form the attention-seeker.

I'm pretty sure that would work here. CK can do what he wants and pursue his cause on his own time. Thats fine. The NFL can stop being his fool and we would be better off.


Mike Curtis solved the problem for the NFL, but I'm not sure that would be appropriate in this case.
RE: RE: Chopper  
Mr. Bungle : 8/29/2016 11:59 am : link
In comment 13091860 Montreal Man said:
Quote:
No, I don't know what he does with his money. Chopper mentioned a golf tournament or some such event -- big effin' deal. He's not protesting that inner city kids don't have enough golf courses or clubs.

Kaepernick has been involved for years with the Camp Taylor charity, a camp for kids with heart defects.

"Big effin' deal." -- Montreal Man
RE: RE: RE: RE: Baadbill  
Modus Operandi : 8/29/2016 12:06 pm : link
In comment 13092335 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
In comment 13092270 Big Al said:


Quote:




Yes it is subjective but if you disagree with my thoughts or actions I will seek you out and punch you in the face.




Well that sounds mature. And you could try - the end result is I either end up kicking your Internet toughguy ass, or you end up in court paying me restitution & punitive for the assault.


You clearly didn't read the entirety of the thread. Baadbill has been Wyatt effin Earp of this thread.
RE: I'm pretty sure  
Overseer : 8/29/2016 12:30 pm : link
In comment 13091889 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
I hate how much attention he's gotten. He's a lousy player with, IMO, a lousy opinion on the troubling times we face day in and day out as a nation. He isn't helping anything.

Totally unrelated to the OP, but I'm not sure he should be counted out as a QB yet. He's a rather enigmatic player. No, I'm certainly not claiming, like Jaworski, he could be "one of the greatest QBs ever" (ridiculous), but he's got tremendous athleticism, a cannon for an arm, and has won in some really big spots incl 2 playoff games against Aaron Rodgers. That one where he was a God Damned cheetah scrambling for almost 200 and the other where he Eli'd a 2 min drill to win the game.

The talent on the Niners' roster has been gutted so it's far from certain he'll turn it around and maybe he peaked and that's it, but don't think he's a definite lost cause. Kelly might help him improve. Someone like Andy Reid would do so even better.
On a side note  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 12:32 pm : link
Anyone else notice all the dupes who signed up just to post in this thread supporting a couple of other posts? Go back and read the first few pages, it's pretty funny to see all the 8/16'ers supporting just these two posts
RE: Montreal Man doubles down on the stupid.  
Montreal Man : 8/29/2016 12:33 pm : link
In comment 13091940 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
"No, I don't know what Kaepernick does with his money. But he should do different things with his money than what he's doing!"

Good grief.


Good grief for entirely missing the point. You bungled this one.
.  
GMAN4LIFE : 8/29/2016 1:10 pm : link
I think what Kapaernick did was stupid, but not because he's an asshole or wrong. It was stupid because it isn't the type of protest that sheds positive attention on anything. It just makes him look like a douchebag, and it isn't going to bring about any social change.
RE: RE: Montreal Man doubles down on the stupid.  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 1:14 pm : link
In comment 13092341 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 13091940 Mr. Bungle said:


Quote:


"No, I don't know what Kaepernick does with his money. But he should do different things with his money than what he's doing!"

Good grief.


You're missing the point. It could be money, volunteer work, editorials, etc... ANYTHING that involves actual effort and/or personal sacrifice on his part to aid the cause he claims to support. Until that happens this is lip service that takes the discussion into a different direction than the actual issue. He has made it about himself, not the problem.


100% don't believe you'd risk alienating sponsors if your career is at the crossroads. You're full of shit, and your level of paternalism is frankly embarrassing. CK didn't jump through enough hoops to show whether he's genuine or not. You're not some arbiter of what someone should put forth to truly be behind a cause.
If we are going to use the word stupid..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/29/2016 1:17 pm : link
it applies to his supposed understanding of history and meanings of words.

He clearly isn't using the right definition of oppression and he showed up for a press conference wearing a shirt with Fidel Castro on it. That's almost like a PETA member wearing a mink fur and leather pants.

If somebody can clearly communicate their points, I may disagree with the message, but rarely will call them stupid. In Kap's case, he most definitely comes across as stupid or at least ignorant to the situation. If you care so much about something to take a stand (or I guess sit), it really behooves one to at least know the right background so you can intelligently discuss the issue without sounding like a moron or spouting off conflicting messages.
RE: If we are going to use the word stupid..  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 1:22 pm : link
In comment 13092564 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
it applies to his supposed understanding of history and meanings of words.

He clearly isn't using the right definition of oppression and he showed up for a press conference wearing a shirt with Fidel Castro on it. That's almost like a PETA member wearing a mink fur and leather pants.

If somebody can clearly communicate their points, I may disagree with the message, but rarely will call them stupid. In Kap's case, he most definitely comes across as stupid or at least ignorant to the situation. If you care so much about something to take a stand (or I guess sit), it really behooves one to at least know the right background so you can intelligently discuss the issue without sounding like a moron or spouting off conflicting messages.


You're looking for any reason to discredit whether a guy is genuine enough. So his point is moot because he wore a shirt. Kevin Durant was wearing a Ramones shirt, and was asked what his favorite song was, and he told the person asking that he stumped him good.
RE: RE: RE: Montreal Man doubles down on the stupid.  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 1:25 pm : link
In comment 13092560 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13092341 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 13091940 Mr. Bungle said:


Quote:


"No, I don't know what Kaepernick does with his money. But he should do different things with his money than what he's doing!"

Good grief.


You're missing the point. It could be money, volunteer work, editorials, etc... ANYTHING that involves actual effort and/or personal sacrifice on his part to aid the cause he claims to support. Until that happens this is lip service that takes the discussion into a different direction than the actual issue. He has made it about himself, not the problem.




100% don't believe you'd risk alienating sponsors if your career is at the crossroads. You're full of shit, and your level of paternalism is frankly embarrassing. CK didn't jump through enough hoops to show whether he's genuine or not. You're not some arbiter of what someone should put forth to truly be behind a cause.

He has not inked a new sponsorship deal since 2014. So the answer is he is not risking much, if at all.
Sponsorpitch/Colin Kaaepernick - ( New Window )
So he doesn't have new sponsors  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 1:27 pm : link
he's still risking the ones he still has. Are you this obtuse? Seems like your beef with CK is that you don't think he should be protesting at all, because you don't personally believe he has anything to protest about. Just come out and say it.
No, I think the problem is that  
kicker : 8/29/2016 1:29 pm : link
CK willingly chose a poor platform with which to protest, and that will simply galvanize those opposed to equality of opportunity.

CK picked a trollish way of attacking an important issue, and one that has spectacularly backfired. And one that he should have known would have backfired.
C'mon now..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/29/2016 1:30 pm : link
it goes to credibility of the messenger. The onus is on Kap to make sure that he comes across as credible or his "protest" really has nothing to stand on.

When a guy bases a protest on oppression, but then cites examples of why he's protesting that have nothing to do with oppression, and when he's apparently so pissed off at oppression that he wears a shirt with one of the biggest oppressors in world history, that's not very smart.

I'm not joking when I said it would be like a PETA member standing up with a mink coat and leather pants.

If you think that's just looking for a reason to discredit him, then I don't know what to say - it is a glaring, obvious contradiction. It isn't some minor oversight that has nothing to do with his message.

It would be like Kevin Durant sitting out a game to protest long-haired, drugged out rockers and then showing up to the press conference in that same Ramones shirt.
RE: RE: If we are going to use the word stupid..  
njm : 8/29/2016 1:30 pm : link
In comment 13092573 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13092564 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


it applies to his supposed understanding of history and meanings of words.

He clearly isn't using the right definition of oppression and he showed up for a press conference wearing a shirt with Fidel Castro on it. That's almost like a PETA member wearing a mink fur and leather pants.

If somebody can clearly communicate their points, I may disagree with the message, but rarely will call them stupid. In Kap's case, he most definitely comes across as stupid or at least ignorant to the situation. If you care so much about something to take a stand (or I guess sit), it really behooves one to at least know the right background so you can intelligently discuss the issue without sounding like a moron or spouting off conflicting messages.



You're looking for any reason to discredit whether a guy is genuine enough. So his point is moot because he wore a shirt. Kevin Durant was wearing a Ramones shirt, and was asked what his favorite song was, and he told the person asking that he stumped him good.


How many people did the Ramones line up against a wall and execute?
RE: RE: If we are going to use the word stupid..  
Greg from LI : 8/29/2016 1:30 pm : link
In comment 13092573 David in LA said:
Quote:
You're looking for any reason to discredit whether a guy is genuine enough. So his point is moot because he wore a shirt. Kevin Durant was wearing a Ramones shirt, and was asked what his favorite song was, and he told the person asking that he stumped him good.


So you're admitting that he's not very bright?
RE: So he doesn't have new sponsors  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 1:32 pm : link
In comment 13092583 David in LA said:
Quote:
he's still risking the ones he still has. Are you this obtuse? Seems like your beef with CK is that you don't think he should be protesting at all, because you don't personally believe he has anything to protest about. Just come out and say it.

The only risk he would have is if they were planning on reusing him, which is unlikely given he is a back-up at this point.

You won't see Beats or Jaguar producing a new nationally televised commercial anytime soon with CK as the spokesperson for that fact alone
and his hot take will give him a convenient excuse when he's out of  
Greg from LI : 8/29/2016 1:34 pm : link
the league in a few years, similar to how Chris Kluwe milked the "my career ended because I don't hate gay people" storyline for several years.
RE: No, I think the problem is that  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 1:36 pm : link
In comment 13092586 kicker said:
Quote:
CK willingly chose a poor platform with which to protest, and that will simply galvanize those opposed to equality of opportunity.

CK picked a trollish way of attacking an important issue, and one that has spectacularly backfired. And one that he should have known would have backfired.


That's a reasonable stance. To insist he didn't put out enough out of his pocket is my main beef. Why is it that these issues require a perfect spokesperson? I get the sense anything short of Lebron isn't good enough.
RE: RE: RE: If we are going to use the word stupid..  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 1:36 pm : link
In comment 13092592 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13092573 David in LA said:


Quote:


You're looking for any reason to discredit whether a guy is genuine enough. So his point is moot because he wore a shirt. Kevin Durant was wearing a Ramones shirt, and was asked what his favorite song was, and he told the person asking that he stumped him good.



So you're admitting that he's not very bright?


Nice, steering the convo about another man's intellect, all because of a t-shirt.
not quite sure  
UConn4523 : 8/29/2016 1:37 pm : link
how having a shirt on that contradicts someone's favorite style of music compares to someone wearing a shirt of a hated communist (talk about oppression) during a press conference where he was trying to defend not standing up for his nation's national anthem, because of...oppression. Was this just a coincidence? The only shirt he had on hand?

I get those that want to defend his freedom of speech, can't argue that, but it stops there.

Has he stated what he's going to do to help the cause, or is he expecting everyone else to do the heavy lifting?
RE: RE: No, I think the problem is that  
kicker : 8/29/2016 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13092605 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13092586 kicker said:


Quote:


CK willingly chose a poor platform with which to protest, and that will simply galvanize those opposed to equality of opportunity.

CK picked a trollish way of attacking an important issue, and one that has spectacularly backfired. And one that he should have known would have backfired.



That's a reasonable stance. To insist he didn't put out enough out of his pocket is my main beef. Why is it that these issues require a perfect spokesperson? I get the sense anything short of Lebron isn't good enough.


Eh, it's not that he's not the perfect spokesman. It's that, all too often, these people are really in a position to enact meaningful social change, and they fall far short.

Is it that he's deeply cared about these issues, or is it all the talk about his football career (or lack thereof) that has trended a lot of his recent behavior?

That, and these trollish displays really set back a movement that does not need him.
wait a second...  
Greg from LI : 8/29/2016 1:40 pm : link
You compared this to Kevin Durant not knowing anything about the Ramones despite wearing a Ramones shirt. This implies that Colin Kaepernick doesn't actually know who Fidel Castro is. The alternative is that he does know who Fidel Castro is and wears the shirt anyway.

So, based on what you've said, the choice for Kaepernick is ignorance and stupidity or mendacity and hypocrisy. Neither reflects particularly well on him.
RE: and his hot take will give him a convenient excuse when he's out of  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13092599 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
the league in a few years, similar to how Chris Kluwe milked the "my career ended because I don't hate gay people" storyline for several years.


Not the same, CK seems to be ok with whatever consequences happen.
RE: RE: and his hot take will give him a convenient excuse when he's out of  
Big Blue '56 : 8/29/2016 1:42 pm : link
In comment 13092621 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13092599 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


the league in a few years, similar to how Chris Kluwe milked the "my career ended because I don't hate gay people" storyline for several years.



Not the same, CK seems to be ok with whatever consequences happen.


Kaep has 61 million reasons to feel that way
Does money insulate you from perceived problems?  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 1:46 pm : link
.
I'd argue..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/29/2016 1:48 pm : link
that Kap isn't exactly OK with the consequences since he said if he's released it will be evidence that he's right.

Pretty much he's covered all the bases. If he stays and plays, he can continue to sit for the National Anthem and if he's benched or released, he can claim that the man is oppressing him.
RE: C'mon now..  
Mr. Bungle : 8/29/2016 1:49 pm : link
In comment 13092587 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
it goes to credibility of the messenger. The onus is on Kap to make sure that he comes across as credible or his "protest" really has nothing to stand on.

When a guy bases a protest on oppression, but then cites examples of why he's protesting that have nothing to do with oppression, and when he's apparently so pissed off at oppression that he wears a shirt with one of the biggest oppressors in world history, that's not very smart.

I'm not joking when I said it would be like a PETA member standing up with a mink coat and leather pants.

If you think that's just looking for a reason to discredit him, then I don't know what to say - it is a glaring, obvious contradiction. It isn't some minor oversight that has nothing to do with his message.

It would be like Kevin Durant sitting out a game to protest long-haired, drugged out rockers and then showing up to the press conference in that same Ramones shirt.

Whoah, whoah, whoah!!! Outside of Dee Dee, who are you calling "drugged out"?
RE: Does money insulate you from perceived problems?  
Big Blue '56 : 8/29/2016 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13092638 David in LA said:
Quote:
.
t

To some (many?), I think so..Wouldn't to me though
TRhe other ones..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/29/2016 1:50 pm : link
were long-haired:)
RE: RE: C'mon now..  
njm : 8/29/2016 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13092649 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
In comment 13092587 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


it goes to credibility of the messenger. The onus is on Kap to make sure that he comes across as credible or his "protest" really has nothing to stand on.

When a guy bases a protest on oppression, but then cites examples of why he's protesting that have nothing to do with oppression, and when he's apparently so pissed off at oppression that he wears a shirt with one of the biggest oppressors in world history, that's not very smart.

I'm not joking when I said it would be like a PETA member standing up with a mink coat and leather pants.

If you think that's just looking for a reason to discredit him, then I don't know what to say - it is a glaring, obvious contradiction. It isn't some minor oversight that has nothing to do with his message.

It would be like Kevin Durant sitting out a game to protest long-haired, drugged out rockers and then showing up to the press conference in that same Ramones shirt.


Whoah, whoah, whoah!!! Outside of Dee Dee, who are you calling "drugged out"?


Now we get to the important stuff.
RE: RE: RE: and his hot take will give him a convenient excuse when he's out of  
Bill L : 8/29/2016 1:52 pm : link
In comment 13092624 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13092621 David in LA said:


Quote:


In comment 13092599 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


the league in a few years, similar to how Chris Kluwe milked the "my career ended because I don't hate gay people" storyline for several years.



Not the same, CK seems to be ok with whatever consequences happen.



Kaep has 61 million reasons to feel that way
There's also been no consequences so I'm not sure we really know what he is okay with. I think it's possible that he could construe football decisions as pushback but until that happens nobody,even him, knows for sure.
RE: RE: No, I think the problem is that  
Bill L : 8/29/2016 1:54 pm : link
In comment 13092605 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13092586 kicker said:


Quote:


CK willingly chose a poor platform with which to protest, and that will simply galvanize those opposed to equality of opportunity.

CK picked a trollish way of attacking an important issue, and one that has spectacularly backfired. And one that he should have known would have backfired.



That's a reasonable stance. To insist he didn't put out enough out of his pocket is my main beef. Why is it that these issues require a perfect spokesperson? I get the sense anything short of Lebron isn't good enough.
Geez,I know it's just me, but I'd buy whatever CK was selling any day over what was pushed by Lebron.
So, because he's a mediocre player  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 1:57 pm : link
that has amassed wealth, he cannot speak out on issues. You have to be a perfect spokesperson to do so.
RE: So, because he's a mediocre player  
Bill L : 8/29/2016 2:01 pm : link
In comment 13092672 David in LA said:
Quote:
that has amassed wealth, he cannot speak out on issues. You have to be a perfect spokesperson to do so.
Not to be (too) argumentative, but I haven't seen anyone say he cannot speak out on issues. I think people criticized him wrt the National Anthem and the murky means, if that was his vehicle for speaking out.
I think you're missing the point...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/29/2016 2:01 pm : link
Quote:
You have to be a perfect spokesperson to do so


Perfection isn't required. Good athletic performance isn't required. You know what is? Being able to clearly convey a message that is either supported by facts or reasonable opinion.

Using the term oppression to describe police shootings shows a lack of understanding what the word means. Wearing a shirt with Castro on it while discussing oppression show a lack of awareness.

You don't have to be perfect, you just can't come off seeming like an ignorant schmuck.
RE: No, I think the problem is that  
RC02XX : 8/29/2016 2:03 pm : link
In comment 13092586 kicker said:
Quote:
CK willingly chose a poor platform with which to protest, and that will simply galvanize those opposed to equality of opportunity.

CK picked a trollish way of attacking an important issue, and one that has spectacularly backfired. And one that he should have known would have backfired.


This is one where he could have learned from a guy like Richard Sherman. At least he articulated his concerns and protests.
Just an FYI, nothing more  
Big Blue '56 : 8/29/2016 2:05 pm : link
David Diehl on Facebook:

Quote:


On July 4, 1776, the Continental Congress passed a resolution authorizing a committee to devise a seal for the United States of America. This mission, designed to reflect the Founding Fathers' beliefs, values, and sovereignty of the new Nation, did not become a reality until June 20, 1782.
In heraldic devices, such as seals, each element has a specific meaning.

Even colors have specific meanings. The colors red, white, and blue did not have meanings for the Stars and Stripes when it was adopted in 1777. However, the colors in the Great Seal did have specific meanings.

Charles Thompson, Secretary of the Continental Congress, reporting to Congress on the Seal, stated: "The colors of the pales (the vertical stripes) are those used in the flag of the United States of America; White signifies purity and innocence, Red, hardiness & valour, and Blue, the color of the Chief (the broad band above the stripes) signifies vigilance, perseverance & justice."

This boob has already inspired entirely too much talk about his trite  
Greg from LI : 8/29/2016 2:08 pm : link
"protest", so I'll say one more thing and be done with it. Give his sartorial choices, I'd find it instructive to see what Kaepernick's answer would be to this question - would you rather be a black man in the United States or an average Cuban under Castro?

Silly as the "love it or leave it" comments are, they unwittingly do make a salient point. Regimes that are truly oppressive do generate a lot of fleeing refugees. People are willing to drown to get out of Cuba, as they were to escape Vietnam in the '70s. They risk death from dehydration and heatstroke to cross the southwestern desert from Mexico to the US. They pack themselves like sardines into shipping containers for weeks to escape China.
RE: I think you're missing the point...  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13092681 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


You have to be a perfect spokesperson to do so



Perfection isn't required. Good athletic performance isn't required. You know what is? Being able to clearly convey a message that is either supported by facts or reasonable opinion.

Using the term oppression to describe police shootings shows a lack of understanding what the word means. Wearing a shirt with Castro on it while discussing oppression show a lack of awareness.

You don't have to be perfect, you just can't come off seeming like an ignorant schmuck.


Sure, he might have used a word that's too strong for your liking. That doesn't take away from the fact that he perceives things are so bad in this country, that he was motivated enough to protest the anthem. You're hanging onto a word, when you should be asking why he's doing all of this.
RE: This boob has already inspired entirely too much talk about his trite  
RC02XX : 8/29/2016 2:19 pm : link
In comment 13092695 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
"protest", so I'll say one more thing and be done with it. Give his sartorial choices, I'd find it instructive to see what Kaepernick's answer would be to this question - would you rather be a black man in the United States or an average Cuban under Castro?

Silly as the "love it or leave it" comments are, they unwittingly do make a salient point. Regimes that are truly oppressive do generate a lot of fleeing refugees. People are willing to drown to get out of Cuba, as they were to escape Vietnam in the '70s. They risk death from dehydration and heatstroke to cross the southwestern desert from Mexico to the US. They pack themselves like sardines into shipping containers for weeks to escape China.


To your second point, no matter what the situation is in truly oppressive nations where it's either flee and risk death in order to get freedom or stay and live under oppressive control, it still doesn't change the fact that "love it or leave it" is still a lame and lowest common denominator response to someone holding differing view of this nation. One step worse is to evoke the "sacrifices of the brave men and women, who fought for the flag." But the worst is when people say "if you do that in front of me, I'll kick your ass." Sure fella...get yourself arrested and ruin your life just to save a piece of cloth.
RE: This boob has already inspired entirely too much talk about his trite  
njm : 8/29/2016 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13092695 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
"protest", so I'll say one more thing and be done with it. Give his sartorial choices, I'd find it instructive to see what Kaepernick's answer would be to this question - would you rather be a black man in the United States or an average Cuban under Castro?


And from things I've read but obviously am unable to confirm, an even more relevant question is whether he would rather be a black man in the US or a black man in Cuba.
I'll say this again..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/29/2016 2:24 pm : link
Quote:
You're hanging onto a word, when you should be asking why he's doing all of this.


The onus shouldn't be on us as to why he's doing this. The onus should be on him to clearly communicate it. If he's truly effective, we wouldn't be parsing words or dissecting his t-shirt. Forms of protest are only effective is people know what the fuck you're protesting and I not to be egotistical, but I consider myself smarter than the average person, and I have a hard time understanding what he's protesting.

A main point of language isn't just a random assortment of sounds or characters, it is to communicate in a way a lot of people understand.

Put it this way - from appearances alone, it doesn't look like Kap took the time to understand historical references or the definition of key words. Hell, I'm on a message board and if I go on a rant about fuckwads and the like, I almost always make sure that if I'm quoting any facts or stats that they are correct before I tell mudbear that he'a a fucking lunatic for thinking that OJ Anderson fumbled away the 2000 SB.

For Kap to not seem to craft his message indicates to me that he's either not fully behind his protest or he's pretty much a fucking idiot.
Case in point..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/29/2016 2:26 pm : link
Quote:
Forms of protest are only effective is people know what the fuck you're protesting and I not to be egotistical, but I consider myself smarter than the average person, and I have a hard time understanding what he's protesting.


If I was reading this sentence, I'd wonder how fucking stupid is the twat that wrote it.
RE: Case in point..  
RC02XX : 8/29/2016 2:30 pm : link
In comment 13092766 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


Forms of protest are only effective is people know what the fuck you're protesting and I not to be egotistical, but I consider myself smarter than the average person, and I have a hard time understanding what he's protesting.



If I was reading this sentence, I'd wonder how fucking stupid is the twat that wrote it.


GDI...I was going to agree with you and did a Ctrl+F to find who wrote that. Now I really agree with you and say that is one fucking stupid twat...:0
RE: I'd argue..  
montanagiant : 8/29/2016 2:31 pm : link
In comment 13092647 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
that Kap isn't exactly OK with the consequences since he said if he's released it will be evidence that he's right.

Pretty much he's covered all the bases. If he stays and plays, he can continue to sit for the National Anthem and if he's benched or released, he can claim that the man is oppressing him.

More evidence of claiming to be supporting a real cause, while all actions speak more of himself and his own personal cause.
RE: This boob has already inspired entirely too much talk about his trite  
Heisenberg : 8/29/2016 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13092695 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
"protest", so I'll say one more thing and be done with it. Give his sartorial choices, I'd find it instructive to see what Kaepernick's answer would be to this question - would you rather be a black man in the United States or an average Cuban under Castro?

Silly as the "love it or leave it" comments are, they unwittingly do make a salient point. Regimes that are truly oppressive do generate a lot of fleeing refugees. People are willing to drown to get out of Cuba, as they were to escape Vietnam in the '70s. They risk death from dehydration and heatstroke to cross the southwestern desert from Mexico to the US. They pack themselves like sardines into shipping containers for weeks to escape China.



We should probably aim higher than those places.
RE: RE: This boob has already inspired entirely too much talk about his trite  
Montreal Man : 8/29/2016 2:34 pm : link
In comment 13092734 RC02XX said:
Quote:
In comment 13092695 Greg from LI said:

Quote:
But the worst is when people say "if you do that in front of me, I'll kick your ass." Sure fella...get yourself arrested and ruin your life just to save a piece of cloth.


Rick Monday
RE: RE: RE: This boob has already inspired entirely too much talk about his trite  
RC02XX : 8/29/2016 2:37 pm : link
In comment 13092808 Montreal Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13092734 RC02XX said:


Quote:


In comment 13092695 Greg from LI said:

Quote:
But the worst is when people say "if you do that in front of me, I'll kick your ass." Sure fella...get yourself arrested and ruin your life just to save a piece of cloth.



Rick Monday


Big difference between someone saving a flag and someone espousing violence against those, who burn it. Come on, Jon.
RE: So, because he's a mediocre player  
UConn4523 : 8/29/2016 2:40 pm : link
In comment 13092672 David in LA said:
Quote:
that has amassed wealth, he cannot speak out on issues. You have to be a perfect spokesperson to do so.


He can do whatever he wants, but he should be prepared for the backlash since we are entitled to give it to him.

He created this mess and now he has to stick with it, no turning back from something like this. As others pointed out, he wins either way; sitting or getting cut and "proving his point".

I don't believe celebrities should be treated differently than regular citizens nor do I think they should be required to give back, donate, etc (I obviously would prefer that). But when they use their fame to accuse and incite the masses, I have a problem with that. CK's voice and opinion is no better or worse than mine or yours, but its louder. He can influence change just by being famous moreso than your average citizen. That's actual power that he isn't responsibly wielding.

Sitting during a national anthem and saying he wants change without any actual plan is so incredibly ignorant. He deserves the backlash he's getting because this clearly wasn't a well thought out plan (if change is actually what he wants).
Ronnie, you don't know the whole story  
Greg from LI : 8/29/2016 2:40 pm : link
After Monday saved the flag, and the cameras were no longer on him, he ran back to the outfield with a bat and beat the stuffings out of those two guys.
RE: Ronnie, you don't know the whole story  
RC02XX : 8/29/2016 2:44 pm : link
In comment 13092825 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
After Monday saved the flag, and the cameras were no longer on him, he ran back to the outfield with a bat and beat the stuffings out of those two guys.


That would have sucked since one of them was an 11 year old boy. Never mind, little kids need some beating every once in a while...amirite?
I don't buy "well what's his plan?" as a take  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/29/2016 2:51 pm : link
Obviously one person can't "solve" racism. The issue is far too complex that that, so it gets buried constantly.
RE: I don't buy  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 2:55 pm : link
In comment 13092846 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Obviously one person can't "solve" racism. The issue is far too complex that that, so it gets buried constantly.


+1
RE: RE: RE: RE: This boob has already inspired entirely too much talk about his trite  
Montreal Man : 8/29/2016 4:46 pm : link
In comment 13092815 RC02XX said:
Quote:
In comment 13092808 Montreal Man said:

[quote]



In comment 13092695 Greg from LI said:

Quote:
But the worst is when people say "if you do that in front of me, I'll kick your ass." Sure fella...get yourself arrested and ruin your life just to save a piece of cloth.



Rick Monday



Big difference between someone saving a flag and someone espousing violence against those, who burn it. Come on, Jon.


First, the post has so many grandparents I don't know who I'm responding to. But, whomever ...

Who's espousing violence against those who burn it? Not me. My whole point is that it's a futile gesture that will do nothing to help the people he wants to help.
RE: RE: So, because he's a mediocre player  
Montreal Man : 8/29/2016 4:50 pm : link
In comment 13092824 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13092672 David in LA said:


Quote:


that has amassed wealth, he cannot speak out on issues. You have to be a perfect spokesperson to do so.



He can do whatever he wants, but he should be prepared for the backlash since we are entitled to give it to him.

He created this mess and now he has to stick with it, no turning back from something like this. As others pointed out, he wins either way; sitting or getting cut and "proving his point".

I don't believe celebrities should be treated differently than regular citizens nor do I think they should be required to give back, donate, etc (I obviously would prefer that). But when they use their fame to accuse and incite the masses, I have a problem with that. CK's voice and opinion is no better or worse than mine or yours, but its louder. He can influence change just by being famous moreso than your average citizen. That's actual power that he isn't responsibly wielding.

Sitting during a national anthem and saying he wants change without any actual plan is so incredibly ignorant. He deserves the backlash he's getting because this clearly wasn't a well thought out plan (if change is actually what he wants).


Well, well put UConn. Bases covered.

STOP IT, EVERYBODY, STOP IT  
Montreal Man : 8/29/2016 4:52 pm : link
More important news and let's get on it.

Anthony Weiner just flashed a third time. Carlos Danger is back.
Given that the Eagles WR has reversed his decision  
Big Blue '56 : 8/29/2016 4:53 pm : link
about not standing, I deleted the thread
RE: Given that the Eagles WR has reversed his decision  
UConn4523 : 8/29/2016 4:58 pm : link
In comment 13093109 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
about not standing, I deleted the thread


I was wondering where that went. So wait, his statement said he couldn't stand by and not do something, but now he took that back? Haha, this whole thing is ridiculous since absolutely nothing good will come of it. I bet he, like Kaep, has no idea what he's even protesting.
RE: I'll say this again..  
cosmicj : 8/29/2016 4:59 pm : link
In comment 13092758 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Hell, I'm on a message board and if I go on a rant about fuckwads and the like, I almost always make sure that if I'm quoting any facts or stats that they are correct before I tell mudbear that he'a a fucking lunatic for thinking that OJ Anderson fumbled away the 2000 SB.



That's idiotic of Mudbear to write that. Rodney Hampton fumbled away the 2000 Super Bowl.
The beef is not with the service men/women or the flag  
MotownGIANTS : 8/29/2016 5:41 pm : link
it is with the a government and the system in place that openly shown callous disregard for the lives of people of color past and present.

The funny part is so many people but he makes millions ....



3:30 min mark until 4:20 mark (Sums up most of the thinking here) - ( New Window )
RE: The beef is not with the service men/women or the flag  
LeonofKiev : 8/29/2016 6:19 pm : link
In comment 13093195 MotownGIANTS said:
Quote:
it is with the a government and the system in place that openly shown callous disregard for the lives of people of color past and present.

The funny part is so many people but he makes millions ....

3:30 min mark until 4:20 mark (Sums up most of the thinking here) - ( New Window )



What there's not enough affirmative action and ass kissing?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: This boob has already inspired entirely too much talk about his trite  
RC02XX : 8/29/2016 6:21 pm : link
In comment 13093094 Montreal Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13092815 RC02XX said:


Quote:


In comment 13092808 Montreal Man said:

[quote]



In comment 13092695 Greg from LI said:

Quote:
But the worst is when people say "if you do that in front of me, I'll kick your ass." Sure fella...get yourself arrested and ruin your life just to save a piece of cloth.



Rick Monday



Big difference between someone saving a flag and someone espousing violence against those, who burn it. Come on, Jon.



First, the post has so many grandparents I don't know who I'm responding to. But, whomever ...

Who's espousing violence against those who burn it? Not me. My whole point is that it's a futile gesture that will do nothing to help the people he wants to help.


I know you aren't the one to threaten violence against someone burning the flag or not standing during our national anthem, but others have. And sadly, you acknowledged such a post on this thread as having been well written when my personal opinion is that it was an embarrassing post by someone who should know better. But it's your prerogative to support such positions.
he's all over the place  
pjcas18 : 8/29/2016 6:35 pm : link
talks about oppression by the government, abuses by cops - vaguely, Clinton and Trump, and then seems to forget he was fined for using a racial slur toward an opposing player in a football game.

almost every athlete I hear talk about this agrees it was his right to do it, almost all say they are sympathetic to the cause, but almost all (in fact maybe all) say they wouldn't have done it. they'd find a different way to protest if they were so inclined.

others like Brees or Jim Harbaugh or those who have close ties to law enforcement are more critical, not of his rights, or his cause, just of his forum.

there is a lot combating straw men on here, but I think it's an overwhelming majority (ON THIS BOARD) who understand the right he has for this protest and even most agree the issues should be addressed (though not all lumped into one big issue), but a lot of people feel the forum he chose isn't the best.

and who the F am I or anyone else to tell him what forum he can use to express himself? I'm no one, but just by the same right he has to protest i and others have a right to have opinions about it. that are not suggesting he didn't have a right to do it or that what he's protesting doesn't need to be addressed.



Interesting how Jim Harbaugh was not ok with this,  
Big Blue '56 : 8/29/2016 6:39 pm : link
but his brother John was okay with Kaep's expressing his feelings through the sitting down..
RE: Sober what are your thoughts on Muhammad Ali?  
sober297 : 8/29/2016 7:39 pm : link
In comment 13091307 David in LA said:
Quote:
.

he refused to be drafted into the U.S. Military, served his time in jail, debt served, but other than being a showman, I don't hold him in high regard.
RE: RE: Sober what are your thoughts on Muhammad Ali?  
Big Blue '56 : 8/29/2016 7:41 pm : link
In comment 13093322 sober297 said:
Quote:
In comment 13091307 David in LA said:


Quote:


.


he refused to be drafted into the U.S. Military, served his time in jail, debt served, but other than being a showman, I don't hold him in high regard.


Ali never served time in prison
RE: RE: Conversion to Islam  
sober297 : 8/29/2016 7:42 pm : link
In comment 13091298 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13091282 sober297 said:


Quote:


Kap just wants to bring attention to his conversion to Islam(at the request of his finance').
Anti-America, whitey hatin', no pork eatin' Islam.
because it gives him a pulpit to be heard from. Nation of Islam is notoriously Anti- Law Enforcement. if he were playing Arena FB, no one would care.



And this was necessary because?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: This boob has already inspired entirely too much talk about his trite  
Montreal Man : 8/29/2016 8:37 pm : link
In comment 13093231 RC02XX said:
Quote:
In comment 13093094 Montreal Man said:


Quote:


In comment 13092815 RC02XX said:


Quote:


In comment 13092808 Montreal Man said:

[quote]



In comment 13092695 Greg from LI said:

Quote:
But the worst is when people say "if you do that in front of me, I'll kick your ass." Sure fella...get yourself arrested and ruin your life just to save a piece of cloth.



Rick Monday



Big difference between someone saving a flag and someone espousing violence against those, who burn it. Come on, Jon.



First, the post has so many grandparents I don't know who I'm responding to. But, whomever ...

Who's espousing violence against those who burn it? Not me. My whole point is that it's a futile gesture that will do nothing to help the people he wants to help.



I know you aren't the one to threaten violence against someone burning the flag or not standing during our national anthem, but others have. And sadly, you acknowledged such a post on this thread as having been well written when my personal opinion is that it was an embarrassing post by someone who should know better. But it's your prerogative to support such positions.



What post are you talking about?
MM  
RC02XX : 8/30/2016 12:10 am : link
It was a post by Marine One on the 27th at 12:06. Linked below. I just couldn't agree with the sentiments on many levels. A lot of sanctimony and threat of violence. Definitely not something I expect from otherwise a good poster from reading his previous posts.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Sober what are your thoughts on Muhammad Ali?  
chopperhatch : 8/30/2016 12:35 am : link
In comment 13093322 sober297 said:
Quote:
In comment 13091307 David in LA said:


Quote:


.


he refused to be drafted into the U.S. Military, served his time in jail, debt served, but other than being a showman, I don't hold him in high regard.


I dont think you are as sober as you think you are. Ali never served time.
Wonder if he responds  
UConn4523 : 8/30/2016 8:17 am : link
to the letter from the San Francisco PD. If this guy actually gave a shit he'd meet them half way and try to atleast learn more about the other side of argument. He has a chance to turn around his image and also work towards some sort of mutual ground. We'll see how big of a man he is.
Interesting how the greatest player on the offensive side of the ball,  
Big Blue '56 : 8/30/2016 8:39 am : link
Jim Brown, supports Kaep
.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/30/2016 8:42 am : link
.
Jim Brown - ( New Window )
ehh  
UConn4523 : 8/30/2016 8:45 am : link
he says he understands but wouldn't do it himself, then goes on to say he pays his taxes, doesn't want to open up the door to ISIS, and wants to keep the progress this country has made in tact. Its a far more reasonable stance.
For some time now, Ronnie has been on my very short list  
Mr. Bungle : 8/30/2016 9:01 am : link
of must-read posters, especially in regards to topics like this one.
RE: RE: The beef is not with the service men/women or the flag  
MotownGIANTS : 8/30/2016 10:13 am : link
In comment 13093228 LeonofKiev said:
Quote:
In comment 13093195 MotownGIANTS said:


Quote:


it is with the a government and the system in place that openly shown callous disregard for the lives of people of color past and present.

The funny part is so many people but he makes millions ....

3:30 min mark until 4:20 mark (Sums up most of the thinking here) - ( New Window )




What there's not enough affirmative action and ass kissing?

All that affirmative action and ass kissing you speak of ... - ( New Window )
RE: For some time now, Ronnie has been on my very short list  
RC02XX : 8/30/2016 10:34 am : link
In comment 13093735 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
of must-read posters, especially in regards to topics like this one.


Hopefully it's not because I bring the laughs...:)

And I do go against the grain a lot (along with my favorite disgruntled Marine friend, Greg) it appears when it comes to these topics.
Greg is right of Eric  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/30/2016 10:35 am : link
.
And you're a statist  
Greg from LI : 8/30/2016 11:01 am : link
What's your point?

Also, what's the point of you and Rocky continuing to use your little alias screen names when everyone knows who you are now?
Seems like Kaepernick  
Metnut : 8/30/2016 11:07 am : link
should've given people a trigger warning or let them go to a safe space before taking a political stand. I think the guy's a blowhard but can't believe that this is somehow still national news. The worst is that after he gets cut or benched he'll blame this incident (rather than his terrible QB play) and the cycle of garbage news will repeat itself.

It's crazy how today's culture is so PC and anything not-PC just causes tons of outrage. I remember when Carlos Delgado used to not stand for the national anthem, and while some people were annoyed, it wasn't a 24/7 outrage machine. He ended up being reasonably popular on the Mets because it seemed like you were allowed to have non-PC views back then.
I look forward to us moving on from sitting during the national anthem  
Heisenberg : 8/30/2016 11:14 am : link
to the next thing we can all rally around being outraged over.
RE: I look forward to us moving on from sitting during the national anthem  
Big Al : 8/30/2016 11:23 am : link
In comment 13093963 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
to the next thing we can all rally around being outraged over.
Yep, I personally am more outraged about ketchup on hot dogs.
RE: And you're a statist  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/30/2016 11:26 am : link
In comment 13093945 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
What's your point?

Also, what's the point of you and Rocky continuing to use your little alias screen names when everyone knows who you are now?


Huh? My name is AP and I live in Halfmoon. There is and never has been a secret about who I am. Doesn't everyone have some type of alias?

RE: RE: I look forward to us moving on from sitting during the national anthem  
Heisenberg : 8/30/2016 11:27 am : link
In comment 13093974 Big Al said:
Quote:
In comment 13093963 Heisenberg said:


Quote:


to the next thing we can all rally around being outraged over.

Yep, I personally am more outraged about ketchup on hot dogs.


You, me and Harry Callahan
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Seems like Kaepernick  
schabadoo : 8/30/2016 11:40 am : link
In comment 13093950 Metnut said:
Quote:
should've given people a trigger warning or let them go to a safe space before taking a political stand. I think the guy's a blowhard but can't believe that this is somehow still national news. The worst is that after he gets cut or benched he'll blame this incident (rather than his terrible QB play) and the cycle of garbage news will repeat itself.

It's crazy how today's culture is so PC and anything not-PC just causes tons of outrage. I remember when Carlos Delgado used to not stand for the national anthem, and while some people were annoyed, it wasn't a 24/7 outrage machine. He ended up being reasonably popular on the Mets because it seemed like you were allowed to have non-PC views back then.


I don't know. I remember when Marco Lokar was run out of Seton Hall in a similar situation. Why an Italian Christian needed to support a foreign war to the point of death threats, I have no idea.

And yeah, the Venn Diagram of people that decry the PC world we live in and are outraged by Kaep would be interesting to see.
I wouldn't call it outraged  
UConn4523 : 8/30/2016 11:45 am : link
his actions don't effect me personally, but its already got national headlines and whether you think its stupid or not, its impacting the NFL, sports in general, and society in general.

There's a whole lot of rhetoric being spewed from all walks of life, and a lot of it isn't effect, isn't bridging gaps, and is actually making things worse.
RE: RE: I look forward to us moving on from sitting during the national anthem  
BMac : 8/30/2016 11:47 am : link
In comment 13093974 Big Al said:
Quote:
In comment 13093963 Heisenberg said:


Quote:


to the next thing we can all rally around being outraged over.

Yep, I personally am more outraged about ketchup on hot dogs.


Because it's Red?
RE: RE: Seems like Kaepernick  
Big Al : 8/30/2016 11:47 am : link
In comment 13094005 schabadoo said:
Quote:
In comment 13093950 Metnut said:


Quote:


should've given people a trigger warning or let them go to a safe space before taking a political stand. I think the guy's a blowhard but can't believe that this is somehow still national news. The worst is that after he gets cut or benched he'll blame this incident (rather than his terrible QB play) and the cycle of garbage news will repeat itself.

It's crazy how today's culture is so PC and anything not-PC just causes tons of outrage. I remember when Carlos Delgado used to not stand for the national anthem, and while some people were annoyed, it wasn't a 24/7 outrage machine. He ended up being reasonably popular on the Mets because it seemed like you were allowed to have non-PC views back then.



I don't know. I remember when Marco Lokar was run out of Seton Hall in a similar situation. Why an Italian Christian needed to support a foreign war to the point of death threats, I have no idea.

And yeah, the Venn Diagram of people that decry the PC world we live in and are outraged by Kaep would be interesting to see.
Being outraged about that is not the same as trying to prohibit it as the pc crowd wishes to do about certain behaviors.
Big Al  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/30/2016 11:49 am : link
I would tell you to turn off Fox News but it's obviously too late for that.
Jeff Fisher  
pjcas18 : 8/30/2016 11:51 am : link
comments
Fisher - ( New Window )
RE: Big Al  
Big Al : 8/30/2016 11:53 am : link
In comment 13094018 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
I would tell you to turn off Fox News but it's obviously too late for that.
When you have nothing really to add, just say Fox News. Eight years ago it would have been Haliburton. Racist is always good,
RE: Big Al  
BigBlueShock : 8/30/2016 11:55 am : link
In comment 13094018 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
I would tell you to turn off Fox News but it's obviously too late for that.

You are an abysmal poster. You always just have to turn everything into an anti-conservative rant, don't you? We get it. You're a liberal and don't like Fox News. You are incapable of having an adult discussion without bringing your political biases into, so please, go away.
This is a serious conversation?  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/30/2016 11:57 am : link
Seriously?
And I don't believe you know the meaning of rant.  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/30/2016 11:58 am : link
Holy crap
RE: This is a serious conversation?  
Big Al : 8/30/2016 12:00 pm : link
In comment 13094041 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
Seriously?
It is a serious conversation about an inconsequential event.
BTW  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/30/2016 12:01 pm : link
Jerry Rice told him to stand so that should end it.
Jerry Rice comments  
pjcas18 : 8/30/2016 12:01 pm : link
Quote:
Jerry Rice✔
@JerryRice

All lives matter. So much going on in this world today.Can we all just get along! Colin,I respect your stance but don't disrespect the Flag.
RE: Jerry Rice comments  
UConn4523 : 8/30/2016 12:04 pm : link
In comment 13094053 pjcas18 said:
Quote:


Quote:


Jerry Rice✔
@JerryRice

All lives matter. So much going on in this world today.Can we all just get along! Colin,I respect your stance but don't disrespect the Flag.



That's awesome, we need more of this. I hope more come out and challenge him. Also, the Jeff Fisher clip is great. I know most don't think too highly of him as a coach whether its his ability or ethics on the football field, but he's 100% correct, IMO about what standing on that field means.
The Jeff Fisher  
pjcas18 : 8/30/2016 12:08 pm : link
clip was one of the first things I thought of. Football is a team game, so many cocaches (like Coughlin and Belichick) plan every single detail - how you stand and hold your helmet included). The part about being disrespectful to your teammates and your team should be a consideration before deciding this is your chosen forum of protest too.

Giants sideline before the Jets game:

The more events happen..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/30/2016 12:10 pm : link
that draw ire, I tend to feel like it is less about public outrage and more about media manipulation.

Look at the attention given to Ryan Lochte, mainly fueled because of initial media attention that couldn't wait for facts before fluffing off a bogus story. In the grand scheme of things, we spent 4 days discussing a lying swimmer, as if a regular swimmer is supposed to be known for truthfulness instead of athletic prowess. Meanwhile, we probably just hung gold medals on several athletes taking PED's and are effectively lying about it. Lochte's just bad at it.

The Kap situation to me is less about outrage over his actions and more about pointing out the hypocrisy of his take and the general ignorance he has regarding the meaning of oppression and historical symbols of oppression. And guess what? The Media has taken his half-assed protest and gave it attention. Instead of calling him out for having Castro on a t-shirt or asking him if he even knows what the fuck oppression means, they give him a podium as if he has something educated to say.

They do this time and again and continually look like fools. You'd think at some point it would stop.
RE: Jerry Rice comments  
Vin R : 8/30/2016 12:12 pm : link
In comment 13094053 pjcas18 said:
Quote:


Quote:


Jerry Rice✔
@JerryRice

All lives matter. So much going on in this world today.Can we all just get along! Colin,I respect your stance but don't disrespect the Flag.



Perfect
But the media does it because it draws eyes  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/30/2016 12:14 pm : link
Blame the people who click on the links and sit through a news segment or multiple segments (See Fox News, Al) covering what should be a non-issue. As long as Americans want to see this crap, the media will cover it.
And I agree  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/30/2016 12:15 pm : link
Jerry said it perfectly.
AP..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/30/2016 12:17 pm : link
I agree. But the Media has gone from an entity that is supposed to be above the fray (even if it was just for appearances), to an entity that crafts their own version of events and vies for popularity.

In a perfect world, a scoop that ended up being false would result in penalties and reprimand. Accountability.

Instead, they promote and incite, often with premature and incomplete information, and even sometimes with plain old wrong information.
Good thing the 49ers open the season on Monday Sept. 12  
njm : 8/30/2016 12:18 pm : link
This would take on even more of a life of it's own if they had opened Sunday.
RE: But the media does it because it draws eyes  
Big Al : 8/30/2016 12:34 pm : link
In comment 13094077 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
Blame the people who click on the links and sit through a news segment or multiple segments (See Fox News, Al) covering what should be a non-issue. As long as Americans want to see this crap, the media will cover it.
You really are obsessive.
RE: But the media does it because it draws eyes  
njm : 8/30/2016 12:47 pm : link
In comment 13094077 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
Blame the people who click on the links and sit through a news segment or multiple segments (See Fox News, Al) covering what should be a non-issue. As long as Americans want to see this crap, the media will cover it.


Also see CNN with both Anderson Cooper and Don Lemon along with the PBS News Hour. And I'll bet MSNBC covered it as well.
RE: RE: But the media does it because it draws eyes  
schabadoo : 8/30/2016 1:16 pm : link
In comment 13094146 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 13094077 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


Blame the people who click on the links and sit through a news segment or multiple segments (See Fox News, Al) covering what should be a non-issue. As long as Americans want to see this crap, the media will cover it.



Also see CNN with both Anderson Cooper and Don Lemon along with the PBS News Hour. And I'll bet MSNBC covered it as well.


Why wouldn't they? Look at the interest. This thread has nine pages.
RE: RE: RE: But the media does it because it draws eyes  
njm : 8/30/2016 1:18 pm : link
In comment 13094202 schabadoo said:
Quote:
In comment 13094146 njm said:


Quote:


In comment 13094077 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


Blame the people who click on the links and sit through a news segment or multiple segments (See Fox News, Al) covering what should be a non-issue. As long as Americans want to see this crap, the media will cover it.



Also see CNN with both Anderson Cooper and Don Lemon along with the PBS News Hour. And I'll bet MSNBC covered it as well.



Why wouldn't they? Look at the interest. This thread has nine pages.


But it contradicts the suggestion that this is being driven by Fox.
and to answer Moondawg's query from several pages back....  
Greg from LI : 8/30/2016 1:46 pm : link
Cuba is not, as it turns out, a particularly hospitable place for its black citizens. Do Cuban lives matter?


Link - ( New Window )
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  
Jay in Toronto : 8/30/2016 1:58 pm : link
gets it right, IMO.


Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on Kaepernick - ( New Window )
definitely respect Kaep for  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 8/30/2016 2:04 pm : link
putting himself out there while playing in the NFL for a popular franchise. Even if I don't agree with it, if you feel some type of then do something about it. Kaep started a conversation, which is all he was doing.

Harrison is a fucking idiot.
some type of way  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 8/30/2016 2:07 pm : link
.
I think he's a dumbass for his reasoning  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 8/30/2016 2:09 pm : link
but respect him for his motivation.
RE: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  
David in LA : 8/30/2016 2:10 pm : link
In comment 13094262 Jay in Toronto said:
Quote:
gets it right, IMO.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on Kaepernick - ( New Window )



Quote:
Kaepernicks choice not to stand during the national anthem could create a public backlash that might cost him millions in future endorsements and affect his value as a player on his team, reducing salary earnings or even jeopardizing his job. If team ticket sales seriously dipped as a result, he would pay for his stance.


Montana thinks Kaep is risking nothing lol, I guess Montana knows more than Kareem about this type of stuff.
RE: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  
njm : 8/30/2016 2:36 pm : link
In comment 13094262 Jay in Toronto said:
Quote:
gets it right, IMO.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on Kaepernick - ( New Window )


Not bad, but he artfully ignores one aspect of this. Many people are not threatening Kaepernick nor denying his right to sit, but believe his comment that there is no difference between the two flags is wrong and/or ignorant.
Rodney Harrison is very stupid, but at least he apologized.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 8/30/2016 2:36 pm : link
...
RE: RE: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  
David in LA : 8/30/2016 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13094409 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 13094262 Jay in Toronto said:


Quote:


gets it right, IMO.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on Kaepernick - ( New Window )



Not bad, but he artfully ignores one aspect of this. Many people are not threatening Kaepernick nor denying his right to sit, but believe his comment that there is no difference between the two flags is wrong and/or ignorant.


There are pockets of people that are asking him to get of the country, and a few posters were certainly behaving combative over this. Again, I only see one side getting REALLY angry over someone choosing to sit down.
RE: RE: RE: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  
njm : 8/30/2016 3:16 pm : link
In comment 13094534 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13094409 njm said:


Quote:


In comment 13094262 Jay in Toronto said:


Quote:


gets it right, IMO.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on Kaepernick - ( New Window )



Not bad, but he artfully ignores one aspect of this. Many people are not threatening Kaepernick nor denying his right to sit, but believe his comment that there is no difference between the two flags is wrong and/or ignorant.



There are pockets of people that are asking him to get of the country, and a few posters were certainly behaving combative over this. Again, I only see one side getting REALLY angry over someone choosing to sit down.


OF COURSE only one side gets angry. Any time an issue comes up that's the case. Next time, with a different issue, it may be the OTHER side acting the same way.
Hines Ward  
pjcas18 : 8/31/2016 10:47 am : link
Quote:
Hines Ward
Yesterday at 10:21am

I'm not down on Kaepernick promoting his cause or the timing of it. I respect that. But I don't agree with the method he chose. Our national anthem stands for our freedom for all Americans regardless of color. It symbolizes the very reason Kaepernick is able to speak his mind and exercise his first amendment rights. If you want to make a point or take a stand, go straight after the root of that cause. Don't disrespect the whole country or the organization that's paying you millions of dollars to play football. Hines
Hanson Brother  
pjcas18 : 8/31/2016 10:50 am : link
Ryan Lochte chimes in  
pjcas18 : 8/31/2016 10:51 am : link
The best thing to come out of this in the past few days  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/31/2016 11:05 am : link
are all the active and former military making themselves heard through twitter, people who don't usually get their voices heard, but get named in all sorts of causes.

the #VeteransForKapernick thing is really taking off. It's a fun read.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/VeteransForKaepernick?src=hash

Saw that  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 11:29 am : link
earlier
You know, this has been kind of a fun role reversal  
Greg from LI : 8/31/2016 11:37 am : link
There have been multiple threads in the past about free speech controversies where BBI lefties have posted this cartoon:



Yet they don't seem to believe it applies to Colin Kaepernick.

If there's one thing I've learned in recent years, it's how flexible and malleable virtually everyone's principles are. I do not exclude myself from that observation, although I believe that I'm trying to avoid it now that I'm more aware of how much I do it.
Greg..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 11:49 am : link
Quote:
If there's one thing I've learned in recent years, it's how flexible and malleable virtually everyone's principles are. I do not exclude myself from that observation, although I believe that I'm trying to avoid it now that I'm more aware of how much I do it.


Agreed. To combat being malleable, I try to have one rule when events happen - to be patient enough to gather facts or information that will provide as much completeness to a story.

I will say that one reason I'm aggressive against other's takes on things is because many people seem to violate a very important rule - the rule of patience.

Taking a stand, presuming guilt or innocence, calling somebody a bust, thinking somebody needs to be fired, wanting immediate results or immediate impacts all happens by a slew of people who react early and often, even before situations play out. And then they will stand by the initial reaction - facts be damned.

If there was a 'Rule of Patience'  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 11:52 am : link
this site would have closed down years ago
RE: Hines Ward  
Les in TO : 8/31/2016 11:55 am : link
In comment 13095974 pjcas18 said:
Quote:


Quote:


Hines Ward
Yesterday at 10:21am

I'm not down on Kaepernick promoting his cause or the timing of it. I respect that. But I don't agree with the method he chose. Our national anthem stands for our freedom for all Americans regardless of color. It symbolizes the very reason Kaepernick is able to speak his mind and exercise his first amendment rights. If you want to make a point or take a stand, go straight after the root of that cause. Don't disrespect the whole country or the organization that's paying you millions of dollars to play football. Hines

+1.
I don't understand how this is still a story...  
RC02XX : 8/31/2016 11:58 am : link
Aren't there more pressing issues out there today? Talk about a slow news day.
RE: Greg..  
Big Al : 8/31/2016 12:00 pm : link
In comment 13096107 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


If there's one thing I've learned in recent years, it's how flexible and malleable virtually everyone's principles are. I do not exclude myself from that observation, although I believe that I'm trying to avoid it now that I'm more aware of how much I do it.



Agreed. To combat being malleable, I try to have one rule when events happen - to be patient enough to gather facts or information that will provide as much completeness to a story.

I will say that one reason I'm aggressive against other's takes on things is because many people seem to violate a very important rule - the rule of patience.

Taking a stand, presuming guilt or innocence, calling somebody a bust, thinking somebody needs to be fired, wanting immediate results or immediate impacts all happens by a slew of people who react early and often, even before situations play out. And then they will stand by the initial reaction - facts be damned.
And what I find here is that those of us who generally like to wait until we get facts are pounced on by the mob as being defenders of evil.
RE: I don't understand how this is still a story...  
Greg from LI : 8/31/2016 12:02 pm : link
In comment 13096125 RC02XX said:
Quote:
Aren't there more pressing issues out there today? Talk about a slow news day.


Must be a slow news week, because I don't know why it was still a story a few days ago.
RE: RE: Greg..  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 12:04 pm : link
In comment 13096129 Big Al said:
Quote:
In comment 13096107 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:




Quote:


If there's one thing I've learned in recent years, it's how flexible and malleable virtually everyone's principles are. I do not exclude myself from that observation, although I believe that I'm trying to avoid it now that I'm more aware of how much I do it.



Agreed. To combat being malleable, I try to have one rule when events happen - to be patient enough to gather facts or information that will provide as much completeness to a story.

I will say that one reason I'm aggressive against other's takes on things is because many people seem to violate a very important rule - the rule of patience.

Taking a stand, presuming guilt or innocence, calling somebody a bust, thinking somebody needs to be fired, wanting immediate results or immediate impacts all happens by a slew of people who react early and often, even before situations play out. And then they will stand by the initial reaction - facts be damned.


And what I find here is that those of us who generally like to wait until we get facts are pounced on by the mob as being defenders of evil.


I assume you're referring to the ignorant?
RE: I don't understand how this is still a story...  
Big Al : 8/31/2016 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13096125 RC02XX said:
Quote:
Aren't there more pressing issues out there today? Talk about a slow news day.
i agree but you can't quickly stop a tidal wave. If I had heard this story on the news once, I would have muttered "what am asshole" and never given it another thought. Now I have interest because of listening to people's principles being expressed rather than the actual insignificant event.
It isn't a slow  
pjcas18 : 8/31/2016 12:05 pm : link
day, but I find it fascinating. it's a real paradox.

how can people support the first amendment, but at the same time want to limit the way you should exercise your first amendment rights. And I say should because it seems like the majority of people say they support his right to protest but even if they agree with his cause they wouldn't do this. especially athletes.

some people find him to be a hero and brave, others find him hypocritical and querulous and for some as usual it's all about race when I don't get the sense it's about race for the majority of the people who have an issue with his manner of protest.

I'll let it go if others don't find it as fascinating or can't discuss it like grownups.


RE: You know, this has been kind of a fun role reversal  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/31/2016 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13096084 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
There have been multiple threads in the past about free speech controversies where BBI lefties have posted this cartoon:



Yet they don't seem to believe it applies to Colin Kaepernick.

If there's one thing I've learned in recent years, it's how flexible and malleable virtually everyone's principles are. I do not exclude myself from that observation, although I believe that I'm trying to avoid it now that I'm more aware of how much I do it.


When we're talking about the WBC using funerals of soldiers as a launching pad for their' God hates gays" takes I get it.

When someone is addressing something meaningful, not so much. The real problem with all this outrage and questioning of patriotism is that it completely buried the salient points. What he was saying merited discussion and we've seen other athletes get behind that cause. It's one thing to not agree with the method of protest, but it's quite another to use your opinion of method of protest as an excuse to ignore the message.
RE: It isn't a slow  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 12:12 pm : link
In comment 13096136 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
day, but I find it fascinating. it's a real paradox.

how can people support the first amendment, but at the same time want to limit the way you should exercise your first amendment rights. And I say should because it seems like the majority of people say they support his right to protest but even if they agree with his cause they wouldn't do this. especially athletes.

some people find him to be a hero and brave, others find him hypocritical and querulous and for some as usual it's all about race when I don't get the sense it's about race for the majority of the people who have an issue with his manner of protest.

I'll let it go if others don't find it as fascinating or can't discuss it like grownups.



This has become a selective nation..People accept what their preconceptions are and rail against what isn't/aren't...It's also a sound byte nation that relies on the media, social or otherwise..
Should have said a sound byte nation  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 12:17 pm : link
that has many waiting for the media to tell them how to think and feel..
RE: RE: It isn't a slow  
pjcas18 : 8/31/2016 12:17 pm : link
In comment 13096151 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13096136 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


day, but I find it fascinating. it's a real paradox.

how can people support the first amendment, but at the same time want to limit the way you should exercise your first amendment rights. And I say should because it seems like the majority of people say they support his right to protest but even if they agree with his cause they wouldn't do this. especially athletes.

some people find him to be a hero and brave, others find him hypocritical and querulous and for some as usual it's all about race when I don't get the sense it's about race for the majority of the people who have an issue with his manner of protest.

I'll let it go if others don't find it as fascinating or can't discuss it like grownups.





This has become a selective nation..People accept what their preconceptions are and rail against what isn't/aren't...It's also a sound byte nation that relies on the media, social or otherwise..


I agree with this. the first part is human nature IMO - especially for those who lack self-awareness but probably to some degree for everyone, the second part is our news outlets are changing and so often people don't read past a headline or media outlets are in a rush for a scoop they don't have all the details and people rely on that partial or wrong information and make snap judgments.

but I think mostly Greg is right and people respect others rights and opinions when they agree with them, otherwise they're racist or unpatriotic, or worse.
RE: It isn't a slow  
section125 : 8/31/2016 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13096136 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
day, but I find it fascinating. it's a real paradox.

how can people support the first amendment, but at the same time want to limit the way you should exercise your first amendment rights. And I say should because it seems like the majority of people say they support his right to protest but even if they agree with his cause they wouldn't do this. especially athletes.

some people find him to be a hero and brave, others find him hypocritical and querulous and for some as usual it's all about race when I don't get the sense it's about race for the majority of the people who have an issue with his manner of protest.

I'll let it go if others don't find it as fascinating or can't discuss it like grownups.



1st amendment works both ways. He can protest. Others can speak out against his protest. As long as it doesn't get violent, all is well. To tell the anti Kaepernick protesters they are wrong is the same as limiting Kaepernick's right to speak.
But...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 12:28 pm : link
Quote:
It's one thing to not agree with the method of protest, but it's quite another to use your opinion of method of protest as an excuse to ignore the message


The method of protest matters because at least in this case, Kap has expressed his views in such a scattered and conflicted manner that it is tough to understand the message.

Is his message about oppression of minorities or police violence? Does he shun oppression or does he celebrate figures of oppression like Castro - or hell, does he even know the significance of wearing a Castro shirt while making a political statement?

All I know is that he's sat down during the National Anthem and has railed about oppression, using some examples that point more towards the Black Lives Matter movement or police brutality instead of oppression.

So, in cases like this we almost have to excuse or ignore the message because Kap has done such a shitty job in presenting it.
RE: It isn't a slow  
Montreal Man : 8/31/2016 12:47 pm : link
In comment 13096136 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
day, but I find it fascinating. it's a real paradox.

how can people support the first amendment, but at the same time want to limit the way you should exercise your first amendment


I don't think that's the issue. I believe that most people who didn't like what he did isn't telling him what he should or shouldn't do. He did it his way and people just didn't like i. That's no violation of the 1st Amendment. Nor is it anti 1st Amendment to be upset at how he did it. In short, no one wants to curtail what he did, but they have every right to criticize the manner in which he did it. No one is telling him how.
He probably doesn't understand what a Che Guevara shirt represents  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/31/2016 12:51 pm : link
it's been a pop culture reference for decades. He's not the first, last, or only college-type kid to wear one because it looks neat. Everything we've seen about Kaepernick to this point suggests he's 100% behind capitalism, so I wouldn't read too much into that. Does it make him look uneducated? Sure.

And just the same, while he may not ever be described as an eloquent speaker, I don't believe it was all that hard to grasp what it is he was referencing, it's just something that there are no easy answers to that people don't enjoy talking about.

Seeing people push that aside and actively look for things to talk about to discredit him with rather than taking the time to consider what he's saying is disheartening.

We've already seen the other side of this. Carmelo and his friends approached this in a polished, eloquent, elegant manner in front of a national audience. It got a day or two of polite applause, and people moved on as if nothing happened. And ironically, THEIR message was to encourage other athletes to speak out and be heard. So, I'm not sure that it's really all that important how people package up their approach.
And let's be frank here  
Greg from LI : 8/31/2016 12:57 pm : link
He probably chose this avenue of protest precisely because it would be abrasive and controversial, and thus generate a lot more headlines than if he had just said some things at a press conference. Heat, kitchens, etc.

It's like an argument I had on the RVA subreddit when a bunch of BLM shitheads (none of whom were black, by the way, just some dirty white hippies and trustafarians) blocked I-95 during rush hour traffic. My contention was that doing things to intentionally piss people off wasn't going to help them generate sympathy for their cause at all, and I received a retort along the lines of "well, if you don't get in people's faces then they ignore you". I suspect a similar rationale was at work here.

Ronnie's point about threats of violence are well taken. However, it seems to me that few people are saying he should somehow be prevented from doing this. Rather, it's mostly people saying that he's wrong for doing it, or that he's an asshole, or whatever.
TTH..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 12:58 pm : link
but why do we owe it to a person who can't state his views in a way people can easily comprehend the courtesy of addressing the message? If a person sets out to protest and can't even take the time or effort to lay out his position clearly, why is it incumbent on us to figure out what he's saying?

By your take, anyone who spouts off a grievance should have the right to be heard and debated no matter how poorly it is presented.

Taken to extremes, a bum on the street yelling "Fuck the police", shouldn't be granted a town meeting so he can expound on the subject, nor should passerbys assemble and say, "This man is aggrieved. Let's go fuck the police".....
it wasn't Che, it was Fidel  
Greg from LI : 8/31/2016 1:01 pm : link
Leaving aside the implications of Che Guevara being a pop culture icon, I am unaware of anyone wearing shirts with Fidel on them. That's rather unusual.

In any case, I don't see how it's anything but logical to question a person who claims to be protesting against oppression while wearing a shirt bearing the image of a man who has not only oppressed an entire nation, but murdered tens of thousands of people.
So, what has happened,  
section125 : 8/31/2016 1:08 pm : link
is that people know Colin protested something. But, that protest has transformed into a 1st Amendments Rights issue rather than his intended "police violence" against minorities protest.

FMiC has a point. Because he could not clearly communicate his reasons succinctly, his issue was lost in a divergent topic - 1st amendment rights.
The reason why I think the  
kicker : 8/31/2016 1:10 pm : link
opportunity he chose to protest oppression is wrong is because this plays right into the hand of nativists and other nationalists who have a thin veneer of desiring equality of opportunity.

There are plenty of other areas where prominent citizens, including Senators and Congresspeople, have remained seated during the national anthem (there are several pictures going around right now). But, in such a prominent manner, and to proclaim it as loudly as he did, allowed people to support positions that they normally have to protect under the anonymity of the internet.
RE: TTH..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/31/2016 1:18 pm : link
In comment 13096240 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
but why do we owe it to a person who can't state his views in a way people can easily comprehend the courtesy of addressing the message? If a person sets out to protest and can't even take the time or effort to lay out his position clearly, why is it incumbent on us to figure out what he's saying?

By your take, anyone who spouts off a grievance should have the right to be heard and debated no matter how poorly it is presented.

Taken to extremes, a bum on the street yelling "Fuck the police", shouldn't be granted a town meeting so he can expound on the subject, nor should passerbys assemble and say, "This man is aggrieved. Let's go fuck the police".....


Well first, let's rule out the extremes for the purposes of conversation. It's not a homeless person suggesting "the end is nigh". He's not suggesting the world is flat, or that babies should be thrown in ovens. If we can't fundamentally agree that the topic is worth talking about, there's a real problem here.


Do we really want to put a ceiling on who should and should not take a public stand on legitimate social issues facing the country? "You must be this eloquent and/or presentable to have your opinion considered"? That doesn't work. It shouldn't work.

We don't have to have a ceiling..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 1:27 pm : link
but we should at least have a floor that the person making the protest is able to communicate their position well enough to discuss.

Even after all the posts and the footage, I can't even really tell what he's angry about. Is it oppression or is it about police violence? If it is oppression of minorities, then he is overlooking the vast number of examples of minorities or immigrants coming to this country with nothing and living the American dream.

If you look at my posts on this thread, they all discuss Kap's lack of communicating his message, because frankly, I don't know what he's protesting.

If you think that's adequate for debating, I also don't know what to say. The person who feels so strongly about something to take action and can't even express it properly, probably really doesn't feel as strongly as he'd have you believe.

Posters on this thread are saying people are trying to discredit Kap. That's bullshit. He has discredited himself.
RE: We don't have to have a ceiling..  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 1:33 pm : link
In comment 13096314 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
but we should at least have a floor that the person making the protest is able to communicate their position well enough to discuss.

Even after all the posts and the footage, I can't even really tell what he's angry about. Is it oppression or is it about police violence? If it is oppression of minorities, then he is overlooking the vast number of examples of minorities or immigrants coming to this country with nothing and living the American dream.

If you look at my posts on this thread, they all discuss Kap's lack of communicating his message, because frankly, I don't know what he's protesting.

If you think that's adequate for debating, I also don't know what to say. The person who feels so strongly about something to take action and can't even express it properly, probably really doesn't feel as strongly as he'd have you believe.

Posters on this thread are saying people are trying to discredit Kap. That's bullshit. He has discredited himself.


What I'm saying is that he's an attention-getting jackass whose career is on the severe downswing and his actions make me want to slap him..

I'm also saying, he can say whatever TF he wants to under our constitution..
The only things..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 1:38 pm : link
I've seen him make clear is that he's going to sit for the National Anthem and he's going to sit until things change.

Even though I've tried, I don't know exactly what he's expecting to change, what he's doing to impact change and what will deem "enough change". And that's a major issue.

His protest is so poorly conveyed that all I know is what he's done and what he'll continue to do. I have no idea what he wants changed and what metrics he'll use to determine that. Worse yet, I don't know what he'll do to help other than sit on his ass during a song.

I'd have been terrible during the Vietnam War. I'd see people set themselves on fire and just think to myself "Is he cold?"
RE: We don't have to have a ceiling..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/31/2016 1:41 pm : link
In comment 13096314 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
but we should at least have a floor that the person making the protest is able to communicate their position well enough to discuss.

Even after all the posts and the footage, I can't even really tell what he's angry about. Is it oppression or is it about police violence? If it is oppression of minorities, then he is overlooking the vast number of examples of minorities or immigrants coming to this country with nothing and living the American dream.

If you look at my posts on this thread, they all discuss Kap's lack of communicating his message, because frankly, I don't know what he's protesting.

If you think that's adequate for debating, I also don't know what to say. The person who feels so strongly about something to take action and can't even express it properly, probably really doesn't feel as strongly as he'd have you believe.

Posters on this thread are saying people are trying to discredit Kap. That's bullshit. He has discredited himself.


I guess we'll just disagree on this, because I don't see a lot of people outside the bubble of BBI grumping about his message being unclear. The WNBA players who protested, the NBA stars who protested, and now this, is all quite clear to many people.
RE: RE: TTH..  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13096284 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13096240 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


but why do we owe it to a person who can't state his views in a way people can easily comprehend the courtesy of addressing the message? If a person sets out to protest and can't even take the time or effort to lay out his position clearly, why is it incumbent on us to figure out what he's saying?

By your take, anyone who spouts off a grievance should have the right to be heard and debated no matter how poorly it is presented.

Taken to extremes, a bum on the street yelling "Fuck the police", shouldn't be granted a town meeting so he can expound on the subject, nor should passerbys assemble and say, "This man is aggrieved. Let's go fuck the police".....



Well first, let's rule out the extremes for the purposes of conversation. It's not a homeless person suggesting "the end is nigh". He's not suggesting the world is flat, or that babies should be thrown in ovens. If we can't fundamentally agree that the topic is worth talking about, there's a real problem here.


Do we really want to put a ceiling on who should and should not take a public stand on legitimate social issues facing the country? "You must be this eloquent and/or presentable to have your opinion considered"? That doesn't work. It shouldn't work.


Pretty sad that posters are more fixated on everything but the issue CK is protesting about. His fashion statements, not deemed intelligent enough, etc.
I would bet..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 1:47 pm : link
very few people know what the WNBA players were protesting. By association to the NBA, I'm assuming it was for police violence, but hell, outside of the 500 people who follow them, it could be lesbian equality or gender equality in sports for all I know.

You know what I initially thought Kap was protesting? Oppression. I'm still not sure what it is. Why did I believe that? Because oppression is what he said.

I can only debate what he's said and done, but apparently, you want to have a larger referendum on inferred meanings?
David..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 1:48 pm : link
have I not made myself clear that it is damn hard to address Kap's message when we don't know what it is?

Am I as poor as Kap at getting a point across? If so, that sort of illustrates my point. If not, I'm wondering how the hell you are missing it.
You're so hung up on a word  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 1:51 pm : link
so what, he used a word that might be a little too strong, but there's a legitimate problem. Black people are angry for a reason, someone decides to stand up for them (in this case, sit down), and you want to him and haw about a word that you think is too strong that other people might not agree with you with. Then to go on about how he doesn't know what he talks about is in itself an issue. There will never be a spokesperson 'good enough' by that measure.
RE: I would bet..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/31/2016 1:55 pm : link
In comment 13096352 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
very few people know what the WNBA players were protesting. By association to the NBA, I'm assuming it was for police violence, but hell, outside of the 500 people who follow them, it could be lesbian equality or gender equality in sports for all I know.


It was a major story. Maybe the reason you're not understanding what people are trying to say is that you're not paying attention in the first place. And that's fine. It's you're right to not care. Just say that instead.
RE: RE: RE: TTH..  
Bill L : 8/31/2016 1:56 pm : link
In comment 13096350 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13096284 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13096240 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


but why do we owe it to a person who can't state his views in a way people can easily comprehend the courtesy of addressing the message? If a person sets out to protest and can't even take the time or effort to lay out his position clearly, why is it incumbent on us to figure out what he's saying?

By your take, anyone who spouts off a grievance should have the right to be heard and debated no matter how poorly it is presented.

Taken to extremes, a bum on the street yelling "Fuck the police", shouldn't be granted a town meeting so he can expound on the subject, nor should passerbys assemble and say, "This man is aggrieved. Let's go fuck the police".....



Well first, let's rule out the extremes for the purposes of conversation. It's not a homeless person suggesting "the end is nigh". He's not suggesting the world is flat, or that babies should be thrown in ovens. If we can't fundamentally agree that the topic is worth talking about, there's a real problem here.


Do we really want to put a ceiling on who should and should not take a public stand on legitimate social issues facing the country? "You must be this eloquent and/or presentable to have your opinion considered"? That doesn't work. It shouldn't work.




Pretty sad that posters are more fixated on everything but the issue CK is protesting about. His fashion statements, not deemed intelligent enough, etc.
But the issue is *not* what he was protesting about. The issue is the manner of his protest.
When that word..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 1:58 pm : link
is the crux of his message - how else should it be interpreted? Couple that with wearing a Castro shirt(which somehow you think is off on a tangent to point out), and his message gets lost.

If I'm protesting child starvation and I call the problem education, are you going to infer what the heck I mean unless I start throwing up pictures of bloated-bellied Somalians?

He used the word oppression, and then based the rest of his grievances on things that aren't oppression. Can you really tell me what he's protesting? Can you tell me what changes need to be made before he stops protesting? If not, he's done a terrible job.

I've not said he's dumb. What I've said is that he's communicated things so poorly it is tough to figure out what he's protesting and he's either ignorantly or intentionally wore a shirt that completely undermines his supposed message. Given that he's reportedly smart, then I really have a difficult time because this reportedly smart person has decided to stage a protest and has done it about as poorly as possible.
RE: RE: RE: RE: TTH..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/31/2016 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13096379 Bill L said:
Quote:
But the issue is *not* what he was protesting about. The issue is the manner of his protest.


The issues SHOULD BE what he was protesting about. That's the point. Why isn't anyone talking about that? Probably because it's a lot easier to have a take about patriotism and respect than it is to connect the dots and engage in the hard topic. It's a convenient escape route to avoid a topic with no easy answer.

Bill, I'm quite aware it's about the manner of protest  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 2:05 pm : link
and quite frankly it's a dumb thing to get worked up over. It seems the manner in which anyone chooses to protest isn't quite good enough for anybody.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: TTH..  
Bill L : 8/31/2016 2:06 pm : link
In comment 13096395 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13096379 Bill L said:


Quote:


But the issue is *not* what he was protesting about. The issue is the manner of his protest.



The issues SHOULD BE what he was protesting about. That's the point. Why isn't anyone talking about that? Probably because it's a lot easier to have a take about patriotism and respect than it is to connect the dots and engage in the hard topic. It's a convenient escape route to avoid a topic with no easy answer.
Frankly, those issues can be discussed, and have been raised as mentioned, by others, independent of CK. What makes this a topic of discussion is the vehicle.
This answer is pretty easy..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 2:08 pm : link
Quote:
The issues SHOULD BE what he was protesting about. That's the point. Why isn't anyone talking about that?


What is he protesting about? Can you tell me what change has to happen for his protest to end?
RE: Bill, I'm quite aware it's about the manner of protest  
Bill L : 8/31/2016 2:09 pm : link
In comment 13096398 David in LA said:
Quote:
and quite frankly it's a dumb thing to get worked up over. It seems the manner in which anyone chooses to protest isn't quite good enough for anybody.
Usually the manner of the protest bears some relation to what you're protesting about. This is more like boycotting transfats to protest killing baby seals.
RE: This answer is pretty easy..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/31/2016 2:11 pm : link
In comment 13096405 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


The issues SHOULD BE what he was protesting about. That's the point. Why isn't anyone talking about that?



What is he protesting about? Can you tell me what change has to happen for his protest to end?


Man, look, I'm trying to be as respectful as possible here, but it doesn't really seem like you're conscious of the things that have been going on that inspired the sudden increase in activism. It's way too much to go into from the beginning. You say things like "Well he used the word oppression but I don't see people being oppressed" and it's hard to take it seriously.
It's a self-contradictory argument  
Greg from LI : 8/31/2016 2:12 pm : link
If it's so stupid and immaterial, then why did he decide to protest by that particular means?

It's as with flag burning - the reason it's considered a form of speech is precisely because it's such an incendiary act with a very clear meaning. The action itself is integral to the message.
Dave, I have always had good discussions with you on issues  
montanagiant : 8/31/2016 2:15 pm : link
Some we agree with, some we don't, but they have always been good civil discussions that may get heated, but they don't get bogged down with the "win at any cost" strategy.

Right now you are either being obtuse on purpose, or you're just refusing and/or ignoring the counterpoints being made because you're getting stuck on winning. You're not seeing the forest because of the trees at this point.

No one is saying that the cause he is claiming to protest is not a good valid one. It is a problem that does need to have a light shined on it. The issue in this thread addresses the fact of how he went about it, and what exactly is his motivation for it. Even the fact he sits during the National Anthem is not really the crux of the discussion. It is that his protest has come across as something haphazardly done and for possibly other reasons then what he states. He has double down on both of those with subsequent

Those two factors can actually result in hurting the cause he claims to support, and has made the discussion more about him then what exactly he is addressing. This is the point being made here that you seem to be overlooking to a degree

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: TTH..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/31/2016 2:16 pm : link
In comment 13096402 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13096395 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13096379 Bill L said:


Quote:


But the issue is *not* what he was protesting about. The issue is the manner of his protest.



The issues SHOULD BE what he was protesting about. That's the point. Why isn't anyone talking about that? Probably because it's a lot easier to have a take about patriotism and respect than it is to connect the dots and engage in the hard topic. It's a convenient escape route to avoid a topic with no easy answer.


Frankly, those issues can be discussed, and have been raised as mentioned, by others, independent of CK. What makes this a topic of discussion is the vehicle.


But ultimately what's really the most important thing here? Address the problems that inspiring these protests, or that we shout people down and change the topic? I could see and argue your perspective if he did something illegal or violent. A peaceful protest well within his rights that would hardly be called inflammatory is being made out to be an affront of colossal proportions.
Ten Ton, kudos man for killing it on this thread  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 2:22 pm : link
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills that other posters aren't seeing what we are trying to explain to them. IMO they really don't care to listen or understand what someone has to say about their unhappiness, they'd rather look for reasons to take credibility away, and then bunker down and not listen.
I do see now..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 2:25 pm : link
how you don't get what I'm saying.

Quote:
You say things like "Well he used the word oppression but I don't see people being oppressed" and it's hard to take it seriously.


It seems you really aren't sure what oppressed means. Oppression means that actions of force or power are used to deny people rights, or to establish rule. Examples of police violence aren't oppression. There is no goal by the police of keeping black people from ascending to power or to establish the laws of the gov't by force.

There's an issue of police violence to discuss, but if you think it is due to oppression of minorities, then it is YOU that is hard to take seriously.

This is why I can't grasp Kap's argument. He isn't getting whatever message he wants across. If he is, then you or David should easily tell us what actions will cause him to stop sitting.
Again  
Greg from LI : 8/31/2016 2:27 pm : link
If it's not meant to be inflammatory, why use that particular vehicle of protest?
RE: I do see now..  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 2:28 pm : link
In comment 13096443 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
how you don't get what I'm saying.



Quote:


You say things like "Well he used the word oppression but I don't see people being oppressed" and it's hard to take it seriously.



It seems you really aren't sure what oppressed means. Oppression means that actions of force or power are used to deny people rights, or to establish rule. Examples of police violence aren't oppression. There is no goal by the police of keeping black people from ascending to power or to establish the laws of the gov't by force.

There's an issue of police violence to discuss, but if you think it is due to oppression of minorities, then it is YOU that is hard to take seriously.

This is why I can't grasp Kap's argument. He isn't getting whatever message he wants across. If he is, then you or David should easily tell us what actions will cause him to stop sitting.


So your issue is that you don't acknowledge CK's issue with the deaths involving officers. Do you not think that we should do more to prospect, train, and evaluate performance for officers? That seems to be what he's sitting down for to me. BUt yes, let's hang onto the fact that he might have used a word that's too strong for your liking.
Harry Edwards, in part:  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 2:31 pm : link
Quote:


One of the people Colin Kaepernick talked to before (and after) his decision to sit through the national anthem was known sociologist and activist Dr. Harry Edwards.

Edwards, who has served as a consultant to the 49ers for more than 30 years, said in the San Francisco Chronicle that he wholeheartedly supported Kaepernicks decision to become a national lightning rod.

Colin Kaepernick absolutely has a constitutional right to express his opinion on the politics of diversity in America, Edwards wrote. He is courageous, well-informed and steadfast in his position. He is evolving through an awakening and (perhaps) really understanding for the first time (given his background) the true depth and scope of the history of anti-black racial hatred and injustice in America.

And because it appears to have come to him through self-education as a jarring awareness and stark reality, his response seems more akin to that of a man suddenly becoming aware his house is on fire than the result of a deliberately crafted articulation of a considered political position.

Edwards has served as a mentor to Kaepernick for some time, and Kaepernick said Sunday that he had discussed issues of race with Edwards many times over the years.

But the professor emeritus of sociology at the University of California, Berkeley saved his harshest criticisms for players such as Victor Cruz and Alex Boone, who have taken Kaepernick to task for his method. He specifically asked where they stood on the deaths of Eric Gardner and Philando Castile, black men who were killed by police in areas that just happen to be close to where the Giants and Vikings practice and play, along with a laundry list of other concerns.

I would be very interested in their records of protest about these circumstances, because they are so dedicated to honoring our soldiers that they would heap caustic criticism upon Kaepernick for sitting during the national anthem, Edwards wrote. If they have no such record of vehement protest no less critical than what they have waged against Kaep well, perhaps then its time for them to sit down.

Let me separate from above the Cruz, Boone comments by Harry  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 2:34 pm : link
Quote:


(Edwards) saved his harshest criticisms for players such as Victor Cruz and Alex Boone, who have taken Kaepernick to task for his method. He specifically asked where they stood on the deaths of Eric Gardner and Philando Castile, black men who were killed by police in areas that just happen to be close to where the Giants and Vikings practice and play, along with a laundry list of other concerns.

I would be very interested in their records of protest about these circumstances, because they are so dedicated to honoring our soldiers that they would heap caustic criticism upon Kaepernick for sitting during the national anthem, Edwards wrote. If they have no such record of vehement protest no less critical than what they have waged against Kaep well, perhaps then its time for them to sit down.

Wait.....  
Greg from LI : 8/31/2016 2:34 pm : link
Harry Edwards doesn't think Victor Cruz and Alex Boone are allowed to voice there opinions? Why is that?

Slightly o/t - Harry Edwards is a far-left piece of garbage.
It seems like he's a fool and doing to Cruz what people here accuse  
Bill L : 8/31/2016 2:35 pm : link
others of doing to CK. He's questioning their right to have an opinion, especially one that differs from his own, and criticizing their eschewing the vehicle used by CK. For him, the "issue" is not what people here claim is CK's "issue" but rather the odiousness of disagreement.
their.....THEIR  
Greg from LI : 8/31/2016 2:39 pm : link
Firing my copy editor.....
RE: RE: I do see now..  
Big Al : 8/31/2016 2:39 pm : link
In comment 13096452 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13096443 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


how you don't get what I'm saying.



Quote:


You say things like "Well he used the word oppression but I don't see people being oppressed" and it's hard to take it seriously.



It seems you really aren't sure what oppressed means. Oppression means that actions of force or power are used to deny people rights, or to establish rule. Examples of police violence aren't oppression. There is no goal by the police of keeping black people from ascending to power or to establish the laws of the gov't by force.

There's an issue of police violence to discuss, but if you think it is due to oppression of minorities, then it is YOU that is hard to take seriously.

This is why I can't grasp Kap's argument. He isn't getting whatever message he wants across. If he is, then you or David should easily tell us what actions will cause him to stop sitting.



So your issue is that you don't acknowledge CK's issue with the deaths involving officers. Do you not think that we should do more to prospect, train, and evaluate performance for officers? That seems to be what he's sitting down for to me. BUt yes, let's hang onto the fact that he might have used a word that's too strong for your liking.
it would nice to know which deaths by officers he was discussing but he did not say. Does it include Michael Brown?
RE: Ten Ton, kudos man for killing it on this thread  
section125 : 8/31/2016 2:41 pm : link
In comment 13096438 David in LA said:
Quote:
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills that other posters aren't seeing what we are trying to explain to them. IMO they really don't care to listen or understand what someone has to say about their unhappiness, they'd rather look for reasons to take credibility away, and then bunker down and not listen.


TTH has not answered the simple question by FMiC. That is hardly killing it. TTH is talking around the question telling FMiC he's missing the point. Well, what is the point?
What is he protesting? Police violence against minorities or that the USA is oppressive to minorities? Or both? Is there oppression of minorities in the USA? Or is it oppression by using excessive force?
Another question..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 2:45 pm : link
is unanswered.

What actions will make Kap stop protesting?

Shouldn't it be very easy to tell us the output that will end the protest?
Al, there's a laundry list of them  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 2:46 pm : link
highlighting one and not mentioning the others would be disrespectful to the families, would it not? I don't see why he owes it to the public to detail every single incident, when we know in general things are not good, and can IMPROVE. My take away was that he just wants the way we recruit, train, and evaluate police to get better so we don't have to see so much of this on the news.
RE: Ten Ton, kudos man for killing it on this thread  
UConn4523 : 8/31/2016 2:46 pm : link
In comment 13096438 David in LA said:
Quote:
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills that other posters aren't seeing what we are trying to explain to them. IMO they really don't care to listen or understand what someone has to say about their unhappiness, they'd rather look for reasons to take credibility away, and then bunker down and not listen.


Really, that's really how you feel? You seem to be jumping to conclusions that aren't there. I'd be happy to listen to what Kaepernick has to say, even better would be his role in how he's going to help (shouldn't you be interested in that too?). Is that really so much to ask? By asking that does that really mean I don't care to listen and aren't I in fact trying to understand what he has to say?
RE: It seems like he's a fool and doing to Cruz what people here accuse  
montanagiant : 8/31/2016 2:50 pm : link
In comment 13096472 Bill L said:
Quote:
others of doing to CK. He's questioning their right to have an opinion, especially one that differs from his own, and criticizing their eschewing the vehicle used by CK. For him, the "issue" is not what people here claim is CK's "issue" but rather the odiousness of disagreement.

LOL...Absolutely amazing how hypocritical his advisor actually is. This is an actual Professor and the best he can come up with while being overtly hypocritical, is attempting to take what they said and label it as if they are indifferent over black people being killed by Police?

Do as I say, not as I do
RE: Al, there's a laundry list of them  
Greg from LI : 8/31/2016 2:51 pm : link
In comment 13096508 David in LA said:
Quote:
highlighting one and not mentioning the others would be disrespectful to the families, would it not? I don't see why he owes it to the public to detail every single incident, when we know in general things are not good, and can IMPROVE. My take away was that he just wants the way we recruit, train, and evaluate police to get better so we don't have to see so much of this on the news.


Draw me a path that starts with the national anthem and ends with the training of police. To be just as trite as Kaepernick is being....

Phase 1: Sitting during the national anthem

Phase 2: ?????????

Phase 3: Better policing!!!

Oh, and wear a shirt emblazoned with the image of a murderous dictator while explaining the deep pain of oppression you feel.

The punch line to all of this to me is that playing the national anthem before every single sporting event is itself silly and trite, and I would have had much more respect for Kaepernick had he put it in those terms.
Greg, I agree about the anthem being an unnecessary exercise  
Bill L : 8/31/2016 2:55 pm : link
and I also wonder if it should be a practice that should be stopped. What would be the general feel if every anthem sat for whatever irrelevant bee they had in their bonnet? Sporting events could become like the Temple market in "Life of Brian".
Sure, Greg, I'd be more than happy to oblige  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 2:56 pm : link
Who says it has to be a direct path? He got everyone's attention, that's the fucking point of a protest. Read his transcript from his presser, he talked about this. I'm not sure how accurate these facts are, but in some places it takes more hours to get your cosmetology license than it does for a police officer to train.
RE: Let me separate from above the Cruz, Boone comments by Harry  
montanagiant : 8/31/2016 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13096467 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:


Quote:




(Edwards) saved his harshest criticisms for players such as Victor Cruz and Alex Boone, who have taken Kaepernick to task for his method. He specifically asked where they stood on the deaths of Eric Gardner and Philando Castile, black men who were killed by police in areas that just happen to be close to where the Giants and Vikings practice and play, along with a laundry list of other concerns.

I would be very interested in their records of protest about these circumstances, because they are so dedicated to honoring our soldiers that they would heap caustic criticism upon Kaepernick for sitting during the national anthem, Edwards wrote. If they have no such record of vehement protest no less critical than what they have waged against Kaep well, perhaps then its time for them to sit down.




Wait a minute here, lets ask the same damn question:
What record of protesting or involvement regarding this issue does CK have outside of a 2 min sit-in once a week?

I asked this same question earlier in this thread and was told that does not matter, yet here his own mentor seems to think that sitting down during the National Anthem is some kind of big sacrifice? He then doubles down with this twisted logic and says this:
Quote:
Edwards, who has served as a consultant to the 49ers for more than 30 years, said in the San Francisco Chronicle that he wholeheartedly supported Kaepernicks decision to become a national lightning rod.

Which illustrates how CK made this about himself more then the issue
Greg  
UConn4523 : 8/31/2016 2:57 pm : link
that's also the other obvious factor, not sure what sitting even accomplishes, there's no direct correlation at all. He did it to inflame, its clearly working, but there's no measure of what impact it has, or any, which is why I think its idiotic. Some folks will support him, but most that do support his free speech, not the actual act itself, because its moronic.

He can continue to say whatever he wants, but I think its very hard to take someone like him seriously when there's zero plan attached to this "movement".

I'm also curious to see if he will every reply to the San Fran PD. I know he won't apologize to them, but they did invite him to come train, come talk, and try to come to some sort of an understanding. Seems like a reasonable offer, but what do I know.
RE: RE: Let me separate from above the Cruz, Boone comments by Harry  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 3:00 pm : link
In comment 13096536 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 13096467 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:




Quote:




(Edwards) saved his harshest criticisms for players such as Victor Cruz and Alex Boone, who have taken Kaepernick to task for his method. He specifically asked where they stood on the deaths of Eric Gardner and Philando Castile, black men who were killed by police in areas that just happen to be close to where the Giants and Vikings practice and play, along with a laundry list of other concerns.

I would be very interested in their records of protest about these circumstances, because they are so dedicated to honoring our soldiers that they would heap caustic criticism upon Kaepernick for sitting during the national anthem, Edwards wrote. If they have no such record of vehement protest no less critical than what they have waged against Kaep well, perhaps then its time for them to sit down.






Wait a minute here, lets ask the same damn question:
What record of protesting or involvement regarding this issue does CK have outside of a 2 min sit-in once a week?

I asked this same question earlier in this thread and was told that does not matter, yet here his own mentor seems to think that sitting down during the National Anthem is some kind of big sacrifice? He then doubles down with this twisted logic and says this:


Quote:


Edwards, who has served as a consultant to the 49ers for more than 30 years, said in the San Francisco Chronicle that he wholeheartedly supported Kaepernicks decision to become a national lightning rod.


Which illustrates how CK made this about himself more then the issue


Really? Lightning rod for criticism and hateful comments means he's all about himself. Dude, you would have fucking hated Ali, and probably wondered aloud why he doesn't go by Cassius.
See, that's another accidental point he's made  
Greg from LI : 8/31/2016 3:01 pm : link
Occupational licensing is a bullshit scam that does nothing but generate revenue for the state....but that isn't his point. It should be, though.

Again, though, you're validating my point without realizing (or, at least, acknowledging it): being inflammatory is the point of the protest. So why exactly is it baffling that a lot of people are in fact inflamed by it when that is by your own telling the precise point?
Greg, those that are inflamed  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 3:03 pm : link
were probably on the wrong side of history before too, so...
And still..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 3:04 pm : link
even through discussing how powerful the merits of his protest are, nobody can determine exactly what will make Kap stop protesting.

Shouldn't it be clear as day?
"the wrong side of history"  
Greg from LI : 8/31/2016 3:04 pm : link
Such a smug, horseshit expression, designed to do nothing more than inflate the egos of those who say it.
RE: Greg, I agree about the anthem being an unnecessary exercise  
Big Al : 8/31/2016 3:05 pm : link
In comment 13096534 Bill L said:
Quote:
and I also wonder if it should be a practice that should be stopped. What would be the general feel if every anthem sat for whatever irrelevant bee they had in their bonnet? Sporting events could become like the Temple market in "Life of Brian".
Onviously you are a communist. It needs to be played at the beginning of each concert, Broadway show, movie and the opening of supermarkets.
Dave, when you keep using your silly ass associations  
montanagiant : 8/31/2016 3:08 pm : link
All you're really doing is showing how bereft of an argument you have. That was exactly what his so-called mentor said "Making HIM a lightning rod"...But yeah somehow connect that to Ali and try to apply subtle racist reference, You're as bad as he is with the lame arguments and a lot more childish

But don't worry you can always find that one other post out of the hundred other ones, and claim "You're killing it" to garner support
I've wasted way too much on something as stupid as this  
Greg from LI : 8/31/2016 3:17 pm : link
One last comment and I'm done - if you're going to drag Ali into this conversation, you need to acknowledge a few things. First of all, America 1967 =/= America 2016. Second of all, Ali wasn't a saint. He spent a decade being a part of a cult that was inherently racist and anti-Semitic in nature. Last, Ali sacrificed his career for his beliefs. Not "oh, he might lose endorsements", his career. He was stripped of his title and, for all he knew at the time, he would never be allowed to box again. Colin Kaepernick knows damned well that the only reason he might lose his football career is the fact that he's a terrible quarterback.
A lot of us supported Ali during his fight  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 3:30 pm : link
against the war..I felt at the time(still do) that many of those who were responsible for his losing his license were also doves re Viet Nam. No, it was mostly about his religious/Muslim views which were repugnant to many bigots at that time..They couldn't have given two shitz about his stance against a non-winnable war, imo
Seriously, NFL execs? Hate Kaep and compare him(some do)  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 6:00 pm : link
to Rae Carruth?
Link - ( New Window )
.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 6:03 pm : link
Quote:


Bleacher Report's Mike Freeman took the temperature this week of league executives in the context of Kaepernick and his protest. He found out those officials, for the most part, hate Kaepernick and his stance literally hate.

"I don't want him anywhere near my team," one executive told Freeman. "He's a traitor."

Said another exec: "He has no respect for our country. F that guy."

And from a general manager: "In my career, I have never seen a guy so hated by front office guys as Kaepernick."

Freeman interviewed seven executives and said each estimates "90 to 95 percent of NFL front offices felt the same way they did," and one even compared the "collective dislike" to that of Rae Carruth, a former player who remains jailed.

To be accurate,  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 6:04 pm : link
ONE exec compared him to Carruth..Didn't mean to mislead
RE: To be accurate,  
Big Al : 8/31/2016 7:10 pm : link
In comment 13096784 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
ONE exec compared him to Carruth..Didn't mean to mislead
Actually to be accurate he did not compare him to Carruth. He said the collective dislike was comparable for the two, Somehow I find that hard to believe.
Why are these execs choosing to be anonymous  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 7:27 pm : link
if there's nothing wrong with what they're saying. They should take ownership of their comments.
RE: RE: RE: TTH..  
chris r : 8/31/2016 7:32 pm : link
In comment 13096350 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13096284 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13096240 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


but why do we owe it to a person who can't state his views in a way people can easily comprehend the courtesy of addressing the message? If a person sets out to protest and can't even take the time or effort to lay out his position clearly, why is it incumbent on us to figure out what he's saying?

By your take, anyone who spouts off a grievance should have the right to be heard and debated no matter how poorly it is presented.

Taken to extremes, a bum on the street yelling "Fuck the police", shouldn't be granted a town meeting so he can expound on the subject, nor should passerbys assemble and say, "This man is aggrieved. Let's go fuck the police".....



Well first, let's rule out the extremes for the purposes of conversation. It's not a homeless person suggesting "the end is nigh". He's not suggesting the world is flat, or that babies should be thrown in ovens. If we can't fundamentally agree that the topic is worth talking about, there's a real problem here.


Do we really want to put a ceiling on who should and should not take a public stand on legitimate social issues facing the country? "You must be this eloquent and/or presentable to have your opinion considered"? That doesn't work. It shouldn't work.




Pretty sad that posters are more fixated on everything but the issue CK is protesting about. His fashion statements, not deemed intelligent enough, etc.


Why is it sad? CK is trying to make people care about an issue. If its not working, then he's not doing it as well as he could. And that's what's being debated.
RE: RE: To be accurate,  
Big Blue '56 : 8/31/2016 7:33 pm : link
In comment 13096840 Big Al said:
Quote:
In comment 13096784 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


ONE exec compared him to Carruth..Didn't mean to mislead

Actually to be accurate he did not compare him to Carruth. He said the collective dislike was comparable for the two, Somehow I find that hard to believe.


I see that now..I certainly screwed that up
RE: RE: RE: To be accurate,  
Big Al : 8/31/2016 7:53 pm : link
In comment 13096866 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13096840 Big Al said:


Quote:


In comment 13096784 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


ONE exec compared him to Carruth..Didn't mean to mislead

Actually to be accurate he did not compare him to Carruth. He said the collective dislike was comparable for the two, Somehow I find that hard to believe.



I see that now..I certainly screwed that up
By the way, Carruth is due out in October 2018. Kick the tire?
David in La  
BigBlueShock : 8/31/2016 8:41 pm : link
So far in this thread, you've:

1. Completely dismissed the Casro shirt. It's just a shirt
2. Completely dismissed his use of the word "oppression". It's just a stupid word.
3. Put words into his mouth by suggesting his motivation is to have police trained better, then all will be well. That's not what he said at all. You said that, not him.

You seem to be making an awful lot of excuses for him. Which you do in almost every single situation that a minority is involved. You almost exclusively side with the minority on every issue, facts be damned. CK has every right to protest however he'd like. But I just don't see how anyone with an unbiased mind could find it so hard to believe that there are some holes in this entire ordeal. We all want to see justice when it comes to police brutality. This country isn't perfect. There's a lot to work on as a society. That doesn't mean you have to defend his actions at every turn.
I don't understand why so many people  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/31/2016 8:48 pm : link
get so upset by a citizen exercising his rights. It should be a non-event.
Is Carruth really  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/31/2016 8:51 pm : link
getting out that soon? Wasn't he convicted of murder?
RE: I don't understand why so many people  
Bill L : 8/31/2016 8:57 pm : link
In comment 13096914 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
get so upset by a citizen exercising his rights. It should be a non-event.
i don't think it's that u usual. Symbols evoke passion and that's pretty much their purpose. Witness the strong emotions when we discussed the confederate flag in...whichever state that was. Or the responses to "piss Christ". It honk there was a flag version of that as well. Or any flag burning. Heck, kaley cuoco get slammed because her dog sat on a flag and Ariana grande got slammed because...I forget what it was about., something abut donuts.

Point being, it's not really all that surprising.
From wikipedia  
Big Al : 8/31/2016 9:04 pm : link

"At trial, prosecutors contended that Carruth hired Watkins and others to murder Adams because of her refusal to abort their unborn child.[8] The defense claimed Carruth had been caught up in a drug deal gone bad. They claimed that on the night of the shooting, after Carruth had refused to fund the drug deal, Watkins shot Adams in a sudden rage when she "flipped him off" after he had attempted to ask her about Carruth's whereabouts.

Carruth was found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, shooting into an occupied vehicle, and using an instrument to destroy an unborn child. He was sentenced to 18 to 24 years in prison. He was found not guilty of first-degree murder, and so was spared the death penalty. He is serving the sentence at Tyrrell Prison Work Farm near Columbia, North Carolina, with a projected release date of October 22, 2018.

The driver of the vehicle used in the murder, Michael Kennedy, pleaded guilty to second degree murder and was sentenced to 11 years and eight months. Kennedy was released in 2011. Watkins pleaded guilty to charges stemming from the shooting, and was sentenced to a minimum of 40 years and three months."
RE: I don't understand why so many people  
steve in ky : 8/31/2016 9:08 pm : link
In comment 13096914 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
get so upset by a citizen exercising his rights. It should be a non-event.


But really if it wasn't something the people would get upset about I doubt he even does it. He was trying to make a point and draw attention by sitting.
RE: David in La  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 9:14 pm : link
In comment 13096912 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
So far in this thread, you've:

1. Completely dismissed the Casro shirt. It's just a shirt
2. Completely dismissed his use of the word "oppression". It's just a stupid word.
3. Put words into his mouth by suggesting his motivation is to have police trained better, then all will be well. That's not what he said at all. You said that, not him.

You seem to be making an awful lot of excuses for him. Which you do in almost every single situation that a minority is involved. You almost exclusively side with the minority on every issue, facts be damned. CK has every right to protest however he'd like. But I just don't see how anyone with an unbiased mind could find it so hard to believe that there are some holes in this entire ordeal. We all want to see justice when it comes to police brutality. This country isn't perfect. There's a lot to work on as a society. That doesn't mean you have to defend his actions at every turn.


You say we all want to see justice when it comes to police brutality, but there seems to be an awful lot of qualifiers for someone to speak out on what they perceive is injustice. Your tone across these type of threads are incredibly dismissive, and you seem to be one of the more vocal posters that are riled about whenever I choose to speak on the issues. As to your bulletpoints...

1) The Castro Shirt: I'm not dismissing it, but I am downplaying his fashion statement. Maybe he just doesn't have a good grasp of history. That shouldn't exclude him from exercising his right. Maybe there's a different interpretation/statement made by that shirt. The images are lifted from a meeting Malcolm X had with Castro in Harlem.

2) The word Oppression: The definition is "the state of being subject to unjust treatment or control." Some people may feel that way. You may not, but how can you pretend to know what minorities are going through, and defiantly say that's not quite the right word? Maybe we should all be listening, instead of waiting to poke holes in someone else's grievance and say they're full of shit.

3) This idea that I'm making up or putting words into CK's mouth:
Quote:
There is police brutality. People of color have been targeted by police. So thats a large part of it and theyre government officials. They are put in place by the government. So thats something that this country has to change. Theres things we can do to hold them more accountable. Make those standards higher. You have people that practice law and are lawyers and go to school for eight years, but you can become a cop in six months and dont have to have the same amount of training as a cosmetologist. Thats insane. Someone thats holding a curling iron has more education and more training than people that have a gun and are going out on the street to protect us.


Yeah, I totally put words in his mouth.
RE: I don't understand why so many people  
UConn4523 : 8/31/2016 9:15 pm : link
In comment 13096914 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
get so upset by a citizen exercising his rights. It should be a non-event.


Because he exercised his right in what I think is a pretty selfish and cowardly manner. Not sure why this opinion on the matter is so difficult to understand. I don't think he should get beat up, thrown in jail, or deported. I simply think he's as asshole for it.
I even have a different take..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 9:28 pm : link
Quote:
Because he exercised his right in what I think is a pretty selfish and cowardly manner. Not sure why this opinion on the matter is so difficult to understand. I don't think he should get beat up, thrown in jail, or deported. I simply think he's as asshole for it.


He has every right to protest and I don't thin k it was cowardly. Perhaps it was selfish, but above all, it was very poorly communicated.

For all the attention given to it, I'd like people to call him on how badly he tried to portray the message.

And for those supporting him here I'll ask once again - since his message is so on point, at what point does Kap stop protesting. It's a very simple question and one that should be able to be answered immediately if he got his point across so well as it is intimated.
IMO it was selfish  
steve in ky : 8/31/2016 9:35 pm : link
towards his teammates, the organization (which pays him handsomely and he represents), and the fans of his team.

He thrust this all upon them for his own personal agenda.
How often do we see the narrative that we would like  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 9:38 pm : link
to see athletes make more of an impact off the field and speak up on issues? Funny how when that actually happens, there are not so subtle shots against his intelligence, people questioning how authentic the athlete is on the matter, and people wanting him to donate a specific sum of money to prove himself. I have no issue with the opinion that one might think there were better avenues to approach this, but this thread is not so different from any thread involving a police officer and a dead body. The thread usually devolves into posters poking holes into the character of the person.
Just speaking for myself,  
Bill L : 8/31/2016 9:43 pm : link
I actually don't want athletes and celebrities to speak out on anything. I want them to just do what they're good at and leave the other stuff for people who are trained or educated in something. To some extent it's dangerous, mainly because most in the world are dolts and confuse celebrity with expertise and let people who, while talented, are not generally the sharpest of tools, shape their own opinions on things.
Just to add  
Bill L : 8/31/2016 9:44 pm : link
That's not anything to do with CK specifically. It's the penn's and streisands and eastwoods and hstons of the world.
He's kind of bulletproof now though  
pjcas18 : 8/31/2016 9:45 pm : link
b/c he dropped the gauntlet and said if he loses endorsements or gets cut he knows he was right. So who wants to deal with that backlash. Not much worse for a corporate image than being called racist - especially in a diverse place like San Francisco.

but reality is he is a backup QB being paid starters money and probably should be cut the first chance that it makes sense to cut him financially.

And what backup QB has endorsements? endorsements in theory are about spokespeople pushing products to get consumers to buy them, so even with his new found stardom/notoriety (depending on how you view it) I don't see him as worthy of mainstream endorsements.

If I am a major corporation I wouldn't use my advertising dollars on him. Before this incident I would have been looking to get out.

So, probably giving Kaepernick too much credit to say he orchestrated this out of self-preservation, but if he did the protest was ingenious.
RE: Just speaking for myself,  
steve in ky : 8/31/2016 9:46 pm : link
In comment 13096984 Bill L said:
Quote:
I actually don't want athletes and celebrities to speak out on anything. I want them to just do what they're good at and leave the other stuff for people who are trained or educated in something. To some extent it's dangerous, mainly because most in the world are dolts and confuse celebrity with expertise and let people who, while talented, are not generally the sharpest of tools, shape their own opinions on things.


Actors and musicians have the same problem.

Why so many people (and media) treat these people as experts on so many issues other than their craft is beyond me.
RE: How often do we see the narrative that we would like  
pjcas18 : 8/31/2016 9:49 pm : link
In comment 13096974 David in LA said:
Quote:
to see athletes make more of an impact off the field and speak up on issues? Funny how when that actually happens, there are not so subtle shots against his intelligence, people questioning how authentic the athlete is on the matter, and people wanting him to donate a specific sum of money to prove himself. I have no issue with the opinion that one might think there were better avenues to approach this, but this thread is not so different from any thread involving a police officer and a dead body. The thread usually devolves into posters poking holes into the character of the person.


Do people really want to see athletes make an impact off the field? I think most people want them to stay out of the headlines and focus on their trade. We're fans, and maybe you're right I guess, I won't speak for everyone, but speaking for myself, I'm long past the age of hoping for anything more than giving 100% in between the lines and staying out of the papers and staying healthy.

I don't care what they do in their private lives, I do not consider them role models (with very few exceptions) and I don't want or expect anything more from them.
David..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 9:51 pm : link
you have almost an entirely opposite take than I do:

Quote:
How often do we see the narrative that we would like
David in LA : 9:38 pm : link : reply
to see athletes make more of an impact off the field and speak up on issues?


When celebrities step up to comment on issues I cringe. Just because they hit a ball well or throw a ball or deliver an impressive line in a movie doesn't make them experts. In fact, they often have become so out of touch that their views are worthless.

Is there really a clamoring of people wanting athletes to become more vocal? If anything, I appreciate the Charles Barkley's of the world who self-knowingly say they aren't role models.
Seeing athletes as role models isn't a personal hot take of mine  
David in LA : 8/31/2016 10:18 pm : link
But it's being willfully ignorant to pretend that this isn't a narrative that has been floated out there from some segments.
You keep saying things..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/31/2016 10:34 pm : link
like willfully ignorant and other insinuations that people should clearly grasp what Kap is getting at. If you have such a good handle on his message, I'll ask one more time:

What will get Kap to stop protesting

Please just answer this question. It should be obvious to all who believe Kap has voiced his protest well.
RE: Seeing athletes as role models isn't a personal hot take of mine  
pjcas18 : 8/31/2016 10:34 pm : link
In comment 13097045 David in LA said:
Quote:
But it's being willfully ignorant to pretend that this isn't a narrative that has been floated out there from some segments.


Maybe I'm ignorant to it, but seriously it's not willful. I'm on twitter but get most of my news here. I just don't hear people clamoring for athletes to be role models and it's not something I look for. which is why i amended my stance to be speaking for myself.
The worst part about these discussions  
RC02XX : 9/1/2016 1:40 am : link
Is people talking past each other, especially when both sides make points that have their own merits. Thankfully for the most part they have been civil.

And yes Greg, my gripe in all of this is the embarrassing manner in which certain people (those in the same "gun club" as you and me) have posted their responses. Couple of retired people, who should know better sounding like a couple of immature E-3s (no offense to E-3s) with cringeworthy sanctimony and threat of violence.

Everything else, I can see where opposing sides are coming from.
RE: The worst part about these discussions  
J : 9/1/2016 1:47 am : link
In comment 13097337 RC02XX said:
Quote:
Is people talking past each other, especially when both sides make points that have their own merits.


kind of makes you wonder why they participate in forum
RE: The worst part about these discussions  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 8:15 am : link
In comment 13097337 RC02XX said:
Quote:
Is people talking past each other, especially when both sides make points that have their own merits. Thankfully for the most part they have been civil.

And yes Greg, my gripe in all of this is the embarrassing manner in which certain people (those in the same "gun club" as you and me) have posted their responses. Couple of retired people, who should know better sounding like a couple of immature E-3s (no offense to E-3s) with cringeworthy sanctimony and threat of violence.

Everything else, I can see where opposing sides are coming from.


I'm still waiting for the day when a Republican tells a Democrat (and vice versa): "You know, you have a point."
RE: He's kind of bulletproof now though  
mrvax : 9/1/2016 8:16 am : link
In comment 13096988 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
b/c he dropped the gauntlet and said if he loses endorsements or gets cut he knows he was right. So who wants to deal with that backlash. Not much worse for a corporate image than being called racist - especially in a diverse place like San Francisco.


If he wants to sit to protest, companies have the right to drop him. It goes both ways. Personally, I'd have found some other outlet for his protest.
Rco2  
AP in Halfmoon : 9/1/2016 8:28 am : link
Many ex-military have come out in support of Kap. Probably 49er fans.
I don't know..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2016 8:36 am : link
about this:

Quote:
I'm still waiting for the day when a Republican tells a Democrat (and vice versa): "You know, you have a point."


This happens quite a bit among those who are moderates. Staunch Rep vs. Staunch Dem - no.

My circle of friends rarely discusses politics, not because of arguing, because it isn't that important to us. We'd rather talk about family, sports, etc, but I think all of us have heard opinions and relented to them when good points are made.

That's probably partially why I think Kap did this the wrong way. By not being able to communicate exactly what his protest is about, the liklihood of him changing anyone's minds is minimal since people have a really hard time figuring out what the fuck he's getting at.
I'm guessing Kap isn't overly bright  
AP in Halfmoon : 9/1/2016 8:44 am : link
.
Sadly..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2016 8:47 am : link
I think Kap is pretty bright, but didn't think this thing through too well.
RE: I don't know..  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 8:50 am : link
In comment 13097415 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
about this:



Quote:


I'm still waiting for the day when a Republican tells a Democrat (and vice versa): "You know, you have a point."



This happens quite a bit among those who are moderates. Staunch Rep vs. Staunch Dem - no.

My circle of friends rarely discusses politics, not because of arguing, because it isn't that important to us. We'd rather talk about family, sports, etc, but I think all of us have heard opinions and relented to them when good points are made.

That's probably partially why I think Kap did this the wrong way. By not being able to communicate exactly what his protest is about, the liklihood of him changing anyone's minds is minimal since people have a really hard time figuring out what the fuck he's getting at.


Re moderates, that's good to know, though, I too no longer care. Rather discuss the Giants, family, etc..
RE: RE: The worst part about these discussions  
RC02XX : 9/1/2016 8:53 am : link
In comment 13097338 J said:
Quote:
kind of makes you wonder why they participate in forum


There are instances when people from opposing sides have acknowledged various points made by the other side. And while it may be a bit too much to expect people's minds/views to be swayed and outright changed based on discussions with those with opposing views on forums like this, for someone to have an open mind enough to take others' arguments into account and then critically think about them to make their own decisions isn't something that's impossible.

In conflict resolution, there is a concept some people refer to as the vicious circle in which the goal of arguing/discussing an issue isn't to come to an acceptable resolution for both sides but to win the argument no matter what by talking past each other. It serves absolutely no purpose other than to lay out various tangents (relevant and irrelevant) to basically overwhelm the other side into submission. It becomes a war of attrition and will. Often that's what we get on BBI (and other forums of course).
RE: Rco2  
RC02XX : 9/1/2016 8:57 am : link
In comment 13097410 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
Many ex-military have come out in support of Kap. Probably 49er fans.


There are many in the military (present and former), who support his right to protest in such a manner, who aren't sports fans. They don't throw out the cliched and sanctimonious argument of "you're disrespecting what so many brave men and women have fought for...blah blah blah" that we've heard so much.

As I've stated on a number of occasions, I don't really agree with the way Kaepernick protested this issue, but at the same time, it's his prerogative. I'm far more embarrassed by many of the responses to his act than by his act itself.
RE: RE: RE: The worst part about these discussions  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 8:59 am : link
In comment 13097447 RC02XX said:
Quote:
In comment 13097338 J said:


Quote:


kind of makes you wonder why they participate in forum



There are instances when people from opposing sides have acknowledged various points made by the other side. And while it may be a bit too much to expect people's minds/views to be swayed and outright changed based on discussions with those with opposing views on forums like this, for someone to have an open mind enough to take others' arguments into account and then critically think about them to make their own decisions isn't something that's impossible.

In conflict resolution, there is a concept some people refer to as the vicious circle in which the goal of arguing/discussing an issue isn't to come to an acceptable resolution for both sides but to win the argument no matter what by talking past each other. It serves absolutely no purpose other than to lay out various tangents (relevant and irrelevant) to basically overwhelm the other side into submission. It becomes a war of attrition and will. Often that's what we get on BBI (and other forums of course).


What I've learned in my 15 1/2 years here is that more people stick to their stubborn points no matter what, even in the face of pretty damned good points made by the other side. They rarely, if ever budge..They much rather go the laborious route of trying to make their point, than concede anything, as though their manlihood is in question..

You know what they say after they are PROVEN to be incorrect? "Boy, am I glad I was wrong," as though that exonerates them from their tiresome and repetitive stubborness they put us all through..
RE: RE: I don't know..  
Big Al : 9/1/2016 9:00 am : link
In comment 13097442 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13097415 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


about this:



Quote:


I'm still waiting for the day when a Republican tells a Democrat (and vice versa): "You know, you have a point."



This happens quite a bit among those who are moderates. Staunch Rep vs. Staunch Dem - no.

My circle of friends rarely discusses politics, not because of arguing, because it isn't that important to us. We'd rather talk about family, sports, etc, but I think all of us have heard opinions and relented to them when good points are made.

That's probably partially why I think Kap did this the wrong way. By not being able to communicate exactly what his protest is about, the liklihood of him changing anyone's minds is minimal since people have a really hard time figuring out what the fuck he's getting at.



Re moderates, that's good to know, though, I too no longer care. Rather discuss the Giants, family, etc..
hippee diet stuff?
RE: RE: RE: I don't know..  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 9:01 am : link
In comment 13097457 Big Al said:
Quote:
In comment 13097442 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13097415 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


about this:



Quote:


I'm still waiting for the day when a Republican tells a Democrat (and vice versa): "You know, you have a point."



This happens quite a bit among those who are moderates. Staunch Rep vs. Staunch Dem - no.

My circle of friends rarely discusses politics, not because of arguing, because it isn't that important to us. We'd rather talk about family, sports, etc, but I think all of us have heard opinions and relented to them when good points are made.

That's probably partially why I think Kap did this the wrong way. By not being able to communicate exactly what his protest is about, the liklihood of him changing anyone's minds is minimal since people have a really hard time figuring out what the fuck he's getting at.



Re moderates, that's good to know, though, I too no longer care. Rather discuss the Giants, family, etc..

hippee diet stuff?


Yes, live longer and productively, diet stuff...😜
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't know..  
Big Al : 9/1/2016 9:05 am : link
In comment 13097458 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13097457 Big Al said:


Quote:


In comment 13097442 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13097415 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


about this:



Quote:


I'm still waiting for the day when a Republican tells a Democrat (and vice versa): "You know, you have a point."



This happens quite a bit among those who are moderates. Staunch Rep vs. Staunch Dem - no.

My circle of friends rarely discusses politics, not because of arguing, because it isn't that important to us. We'd rather talk about family, sports, etc, but I think all of us have heard opinions and relented to them when good points are made.

That's probably partially why I think Kap did this the wrong way. By not being able to communicate exactly what his protest is about, the liklihood of him changing anyone's minds is minimal since people have a really hard time figuring out what the fuck he's getting at.



Re moderates, that's good to know, though, I too no longer care. Rather discuss the Giants, family, etc..

hippee diet stuff?



Yes, live longer and productively, diet stuff...😜
Better to live less longer and enjoy my bacon.
I'm with the pragmatists on this one...  
adamg : 9/1/2016 9:08 am : link
But as I'm more of a douchebag type than those who've taken this tact I'll put it differently.

The problem is not that CK has an opinion on something. (One that I happen to sympathize with.) It's that he's using the NFL as his bully pulpit to peddle it in a puerile way.

And I totally agree with those who begrudge famous people for pushing politics/issues/etc. from a place of ignorance or at least a place of false esteem. Like that weasel Jenny McCarthy with her pro-communicable-debilitating-disease activism borne out of her showing her plastic fun bags in magazines.

The NFL doesn't exist so that players can exercise their right to protest in the middle of their private events. And, in fact, the constitution has no bearing on the major issues people have with this. So, all that first amendment masturbation can fuck off.

He doesn't even have a right to be in the stadium at all. You and I can't go to Metlife and burn a flag at the fifty yard line during halftime. It's armchair politics from the bench. Luckily, he won't have to move come game time...
RE: I'm with the pragmatists on this one...  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 9:43 am : link
In comment 13097468 adamg said:
Quote:
But as I'm more of a douchebag type than those who've taken this tact I'll put it differently.

The problem is not that CK has an opinion on something. (One that I happen to sympathize with.) It's that he's using the NFL as his bully pulpit to peddle it in a puerile way.

And I totally agree with those who begrudge famous people for pushing politics/issues/etc. from a place of ignorance or at least a place of false esteem. Like that weasel Jenny McCarthy with her pro-communicable-debilitating-disease activism borne out of her showing her plastic fun bags in magazines.

The NFL doesn't exist so that players can exercise their right to protest in the middle of their private events. And, in fact, the constitution has no bearing on the major issues people have with this. So, all that first amendment masturbation can fuck off.

He doesn't even have a right to be in the stadium at all. You and I can't go to Metlife and burn a flag at the fifty yard line during halftime. It's armchair politics from the bench. Luckily, he won't have to move come game time...


You had me at puerile..😎
RE: I'm with the pragmatists on this one...  
RC02XX : 9/1/2016 9:48 am : link
In comment 13097468 adamg said:
Quote:
But as I'm more of a douchebag type than those who've taken this tact I'll put it differently.

The problem is not that CK has an opinion on something. (One that I happen to sympathize with.) It's that he's using the NFL as his bully pulpit to peddle it in a puerile way.

And I totally agree with those who begrudge famous people for pushing politics/issues/etc. from a place of ignorance or at least a place of false esteem. Like that weasel Jenny McCarthy with her pro-communicable-debilitating-disease activism borne out of her showing her plastic fun bags in magazines.

The NFL doesn't exist so that players can exercise their right to protest in the middle of their private events. And, in fact, the constitution has no bearing on the major issues people have with this. So, all that first amendment masturbation can fuck off.

He doesn't even have a right to be in the stadium at all. You and I can't go to Metlife and burn a flag at the fifty yard line during halftime. It's armchair politics from the bench. Luckily, he won't have to move come game time...


Says who? I mean, an entire section of the stadium can stay seated and not stand for the national anthem, and nothing can be done about them. So why doesn't this guy have the right to be at the stadium? Unless you are referring to him sucking as a QB, which I won't disagree with you on.

You're really not separating yourself from everyone else, who want to run him out of town for the way he protested, no matter how much you think your views are different. And while you're correct about the First Amendment not mattering in this situation since it's not the government he has to worry about, unless the NFL or his team forbids him to do so, he hasn't broken any league/team policies on this matter, so he hasn't done anything wrong.
RE: RE: I'm with the pragmatists on this one...  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 9:51 am : link
In comment 13097545 RC02XX said:
Quote:
In comment 13097468 adamg said:


Quote:


But as I'm more of a douchebag type than those who've taken this tact I'll put it differently.

The problem is not that CK has an opinion on something. (One that I happen to sympathize with.) It's that he's using the NFL as his bully pulpit to peddle it in a puerile way.

And I totally agree with those who begrudge famous people for pushing politics/issues/etc. from a place of ignorance or at least a place of false esteem. Like that weasel Jenny McCarthy with her pro-communicable-debilitating-disease activism borne out of her showing her plastic fun bags in magazines.

The NFL doesn't exist so that players can exercise their right to protest in the middle of their private events. And, in fact, the constitution has no bearing on the major issues people have with this. So, all that first amendment masturbation can fuck off.

He doesn't even have a right to be in the stadium at all. You and I can't go to Metlife and burn a flag at the fifty yard line during halftime. It's armchair politics from the bench. Luckily, he won't have to move come game time...



Says who? I mean, an entire section of the stadium can stay seated and not stand for the national anthem, and nothing can be done about them. So why doesn't this guy have the right to be at the stadium? Unless you are referring to him sucking as a QB, which I won't disagree with you on.

You're really not separating yourself from everyone else, who want to run him out of town for the way he protested, no matter how much you think your views are different. And while you're correct about the First Amendment not mattering in this situation since it's not the government he has to worry about, unless the NFL or his team forbids him to do so, he hasn't broken any league/team policies on this matter, so he hasn't done anything wrong.


Stupid(imo) does not have to be wrong..
RE: RE: RE: I'm with the pragmatists on this one...  
RC02XX : 9/1/2016 9:54 am : link
In comment 13097552 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Stupid(imo) does not have to be wrong..


I agree. However, being stupid doesn't mean you aren't allowed to do things that does not violate any laws, policies, regulations, rules, etc. No matter what peoples' views and opinions about Kaepernick's actions are regarding this silent protest, he has every bit of right (legally and according to NFL and his team) to keep doing it.
I didn't say he should be run out of town...  
adamg : 9/1/2016 9:55 am : link
I specifically addressed the "right to free speech" that was mentioned.

Private engagements aren't included in that, as you acknowledged. That was the point...

My point is... who gives a shit? It's a football player talking about politics.

I think he shouldn't use the actual NFL games as a platform. I think that's murky waters.

Obviously, the owners think it's bad business.

I want football with my football and politics with my politics.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm with the pragmatists on this one...  
adamg : 9/1/2016 9:58 am : link
In comment 13097555 RC02XX said:
Quote:
In comment 13097552 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Stupid(imo) does not have to be wrong..



I agree. However, being stupid doesn't mean you aren't allowed to do things that does not violate any laws, policies, regulations, rules, etc. No matter what peoples' views and opinions about Kaepernick's actions are regarding this silent protest, he has every bit of right (legally and according to NFL and his team) to keep doing it.


Now you're contradicting yourself. He doesn't have the RIGHT to protest AND play. The owners have the final say. Playing football isn't a right...

He can say and do what he wants. He's not immune to retribution from the owners.
RE: RE: RE: I'm with the pragmatists on this one...  
Montreal Man : 9/1/2016 10:21 am : link
In comment 13097552 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:


Stupid(imo) does not have to be wrong..


BB'56 ... I wouldn't call what he did stupid or wrong (or right, for that matter.) To me, what seems to have people in an uproar has more to do with going against the grain of our accepted culture, which is to stand during the anthem. It's what most of us have grown up doing and understanding and when it's "violated" we get our noses out of joint. We can apply words like "unseemly," "inappropriate," "unacceptable," "unsuitable," "unfitting," etc. None of those words have anything to do with free speech. They just describe the kind of feelings and thoughts Kap generated. What he did is like a guy wearing a pink suit at a funeral. Not right or wrong -- you just don't do it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm with the pragmatists on this one...  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 10:48 am : link
In comment 13097589 Montreal Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13097552 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:




Stupid(imo) does not have to be wrong..



BB'56 ... I wouldn't call what he did stupid or wrong (or right, for that matter.) To me, what seems to have people in an uproar has more to do with going against the grain of our accepted culture, which is to stand during the anthem. It's what most of us have grown up doing and understanding and when it's "violated" we get our noses out of joint. We can apply words like "unseemly," "inappropriate," "unacceptable," "unsuitable," "unfitting," etc. None of those words have anything to do with free speech. They just describe the kind of feelings and thoughts Kap generated. What he did is like a guy wearing a pink suit at a funeral. Not right or wrong -- you just don't do it.


Fair enough
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm with the pragmatists on this one...  
Mr. Bungle : 9/1/2016 10:57 am : link
In comment 13097619 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13097589 Montreal Man said:


Quote:


In comment 13097552 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:




Stupid(imo) does not have to be wrong..



BB'56 ... I wouldn't call what he did stupid or wrong (or right, for that matter.) To me, what seems to have people in an uproar has more to do with going against the grain of our accepted culture, which is to stand during the anthem. It's what most of us have grown up doing and understanding and when it's "violated" we get our noses out of joint. We can apply words like "unseemly," "inappropriate," "unacceptable," "unsuitable," "unfitting," etc. None of those words have anything to do with free speech. They just describe the kind of feelings and thoughts Kap generated. What he did is like a guy wearing a pink suit at a funeral. Not right or wrong -- you just don't do it.



Fair enough

He's come a long way since applauding threats of assault earlier in this thread, hasn't he...
And yet another question emerges:  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 11:40 am : link
Will Kaep remove the flag decal from his helmet tonight? Isn't this exciting?

Quote:


TV footage of last Fridays game between the Packers and 49ers shows plainly that Kaepernicks helmet still had a decal of the flag that he has decided not to honor. Its unknown whether he considered removing it then, or whether hes considering removing it for Thursday nights game.

Its a fair question to ponder, especially in light of the image making the rounds of Kaepernick wearing socks at practice earlier this month showing pigs in police hats. Its a much broader attack on law enforcement than his deliberate, thoughtful remarks about the topic from Sunday, and it invites plenty of speculation about how else hell go about making his point.


Link - ( New Window )
Wearing socks..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2016 11:43 am : link
with pigs dressed in police hats probably shows he knew exactly what the Castro t-shirt meant.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm with the pragmatists on this one...  
RC02XX : 9/1/2016 11:47 am : link
In comment 13097561 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 13097555 RC02XX said:


Quote:


In comment 13097552 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Stupid(imo) does not have to be wrong..



I agree. However, being stupid doesn't mean you aren't allowed to do things that does not violate any laws, policies, regulations, rules, etc. No matter what peoples' views and opinions about Kaepernick's actions are regarding this silent protest, he has every bit of right (legally and according to NFL and his team) to keep doing it.



Now you're contradicting yourself. He doesn't have the RIGHT to protest AND play. The owners have the final say. Playing football isn't a right...

He can say and do what he wants. He's not immune to retribution from the owners.


You are correct in that he doesn't have the RIGHT to play the game (it's at the behest of the NFL and the team). However, he has every right to protest (even in the medium of a football game) while still playing as long as the NFL and his team are ok with it. And while things may change in the near future, he hasn't been told not to protest. So he does in fact have every right to protest while still playing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm with the pragmatists on this one...  
RC02XX : 9/1/2016 11:48 am : link
In comment 13097639 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
In comment 13097619 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13097589 Montreal Man said:


Quote:


In comment 13097552 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:




Stupid(imo) does not have to be wrong..



BB'56 ... I wouldn't call what he did stupid or wrong (or right, for that matter.) To me, what seems to have people in an uproar has more to do with going against the grain of our accepted culture, which is to stand during the anthem. It's what most of us have grown up doing and understanding and when it's "violated" we get our noses out of joint. We can apply words like "unseemly," "inappropriate," "unacceptable," "unsuitable," "unfitting," etc. None of those words have anything to do with free speech. They just describe the kind of feelings and thoughts Kap generated. What he did is like a guy wearing a pink suit at a funeral. Not right or wrong -- you just don't do it.



Fair enough


He's come a long way since applauding threats of assault earlier in this thread, hasn't he...


Haha...I noticed that too.
RE: And yet another question emerges:  
Bill L : 9/1/2016 12:01 pm : link
In comment 13097739 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Will Kaep remove the flag decal from his helmet tonight? Isn't this exciting?



Quote:




TV footage of last Fridays game between the Packers and 49ers shows plainly that Kaepernicks helmet still had a decal of the flag that he has decided not to honor. Its unknown whether he considered removing it then, or whether hes considering removing it for Thursday nights game.

Its a fair question to ponder, especially in light of the image making the rounds of Kaepernick wearing socks at practice earlier this month showing pigs in police hats. Its a much broader attack on law enforcement than his deliberate, thoughtful remarks about the topic from Sunday, and it invites plenty of speculation about how else hell go about making his point.



Link - ( New Window )
That would be a really interesting one, since I'm assuming that the flag decal is part of the uniform. Removing it might put him in violation of the nfl's uniform code and they're pretty rigid about enforcement and actual fines. There would be absolutely no gray area here for him.
RE: RE: And yet another question emerges:  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 12:10 pm : link
In comment 13097780 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13097739 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Will Kaep remove the flag decal from his helmet tonight? Isn't this exciting?



Quote:




TV footage of last Fridays game between the Packers and 49ers shows plainly that Kaepernicks helmet still had a decal of the flag that he has decided not to honor. Its unknown whether he considered removing it then, or whether hes considering removing it for Thursday nights game.

Its a fair question to ponder, especially in light of the image making the rounds of Kaepernick wearing socks at practice earlier this month showing pigs in police hats. Its a much broader attack on law enforcement than his deliberate, thoughtful remarks about the topic from Sunday, and it invites plenty of speculation about how else hell go about making his point.



Link - ( New Window )

That would be a really interesting one, since I'm assuming that the flag decal is part of the uniform. Removing it might put him in violation of the nfl's uniform code and they're pretty rigid about enforcement and actual fines. There would be absolutely no gray area here for him.


31, good point. We know how petty they can be with uniform codes
RE: Wearing socks..  
BigBlueShock : 9/1/2016 12:34 pm : link
In comment 13097748 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
with pigs dressed in police hats probably shows he knew exactly what the Castro t-shirt meant.

Pfffft. Come on now. I mean, he probably has a very small sock collection and maybe he doesn't even know what the pig in a police hat represents? Ever think of that? Can't kill a guy for the random socks he decides to wear.

---David in LA
gotta love the pig socks  
UConn4523 : 9/1/2016 1:11 pm : link
but hey, he does have a right to wear them...
I don't agree with the socks  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 1:19 pm : link
but there is a problem with law enforcement and accountability that feeds the hostility going on, but let's bitch about the socks and the shirt, because that's clearly a bigger issue, right?
Do you still..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2016 1:23 pm : link
not get it??

Quote:
but let's bitch about the socks and the shirt, because that's clearly a bigger issue, right?


It isn't about the socks or the shirt - it is about the lack of self awareness in both crafting his message and in proudly sporting Castro.
Fatman, I don't really expect much out of pro athletes  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 1:26 pm : link
and yes, the fashion statements are open to very broad interpretations, unless he gets out in front of them. The shirt and socks still don't take away from the legitimacy of his gripe with the police, but it does open him up to criticism. My biggest grievance with this board is that a lot of people choose to not even acknowledge the issue, even before CK decided to protest.
Jeez man  
UConn4523 : 9/1/2016 1:27 pm : link
i don't see how you don't get that we all agree with the issues this country faces. What does that have to do with us also calling CK a moron? Does the existence of police brutality mean that less harmful wrong doings can't be discussed?
I don't man  
UConn4523 : 9/1/2016 1:33 pm : link
I think most people acknowledge there's an issue regarding police brutality. With political threads banned maybe the opportunity for it to be discussed here takes a hit, but I don't think any reasonable person would think there's no issue at all.

I happen to think guys like CK have far too much power than their worth (i posted on this much earlier in the thread) and that because of it he should really be setting an example. He can take the SFPD's offer, go visit with their recruit class, go talk to their police chief, go visit inner city schools alongside a police officer and just talk about everyday problems. Instead he's inciting division, and nothing good will come of it. He can be doing so much more and he simply isn't (atleast not that I am aware of) and that's sad.
UConn, I certainly wasn't referring to you  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 1:39 pm : link
but there are a group of posters that are extremely vocal about this, that 10 times out of 10 have been looking for bullshit qualifiers to make the police brutality cases out to be illegitimate because of a variety of reasons that don't justify the outcomes. They even preface it with acknowledgement of the issues, but then buries their head in the sand when it's time to discuss the issues. No spokesperson is going to be perfect, especially pro athletes. IMO people don't want to acknowledge how ugly things are, because it doesn't directly affect them, so it's more difficult to really empathize with someone else's grievance.
RE: UConn, I certainly wasn't referring to you  
Big Al : 9/1/2016 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13097959 David in LA said:
Quote:
but there are a group of posters that are extremely vocal about this, that 10 times out of 10 have been looking for bullshit qualifiers to make the police brutality cases out to be illegitimate because of a variety of reasons that don't justify the outcomes. They even preface it with acknowledgement of the issues, but then buries their head in the sand when it's time to discuss the issues. No spokesperson is going to be perfect, especially pro athletes. IMO people don't want to acknowledge how ugly things are, because it doesn't directly affect them, so it's more difficult to really empathize with someone else's grievance.
And some vice versa. The police are always wrong no matter what facts come out.
I hear you  
UConn4523 : 9/1/2016 1:45 pm : link
and I think a lot of those people, myself included at times, hold the police in pretty high regard and simply give them the benefit of the doubt. I generally stay off those threads now though, they are usually filled with nonsense on both sides with too many facts missing to take seriously.
Latest from Florio, fwiw:  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 1:47 pm : link
Quote:


Players arent required to stand for the national anthem. However, they are required to display the American flag on their helmets.

League spokesman Brian McCarthy tells PFT that players are not permitted to remove the flag decal that appears on the back of every players helmet.



Ok, carry on..
Will Kaepernick go full heel  
UConn4523 : 9/1/2016 1:49 pm : link
and remove the flag from his helmet? I almost hope he does.
RE: RE: UConn, I certainly wasn't referring to you  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 1:49 pm : link
In comment 13097974 Big Al said:
Quote:
In comment 13097959 David in LA said:


Quote:


but there are a group of posters that are extremely vocal about this, that 10 times out of 10 have been looking for bullshit qualifiers to make the police brutality cases out to be illegitimate because of a variety of reasons that don't justify the outcomes. They even preface it with acknowledgement of the issues, but then buries their head in the sand when it's time to discuss the issues. No spokesperson is going to be perfect, especially pro athletes. IMO people don't want to acknowledge how ugly things are, because it doesn't directly affect them, so it's more difficult to really empathize with someone else's grievance.

And some vice versa. The police are always wrong no matter what facts come out.


The police should be held to a higher standard than normal civilians, and I want things to be better. I just choose not to shut off my ears to other people's complaints about how bad things are, over shirts and socks.
I don't think anyone is ignoring the problem  
UConn4523 : 9/1/2016 1:56 pm : link
and only focusing on his clothes though. He could have accomplished a lot more in a published letter to law enforcement on his Twitter account, for example, with well a thought out idea and follow through. Instead he chose to piss off a large majority of people by disrespecting the flag, creating more division.

That is the argument, not his stance on police brutality which is legitimate.
RE: Will Kaepernick go full heel  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 1:57 pm : link
In comment 13098000 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and remove the flag from his helmet? I almost hope he does.


If he does, he gets in trouble as he would knowingly be breaking NFL rules, as silly as some of them might be
RE: RE: RE: UConn, I certainly wasn't referring to you  
Big Al : 9/1/2016 2:00 pm : link
In comment 13098002 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13097974 Big Al said:


Quote:


In comment 13097959 David in LA said:


Quote:


but there are a group of posters that are extremely vocal about this, that 10 times out of 10 have been looking for bullshit qualifiers to make the police brutality cases out to be illegitimate because of a variety of reasons that don't justify the outcomes. They even preface it with acknowledgement of the issues, but then buries their head in the sand when it's time to discuss the issues. No spokesperson is going to be perfect, especially pro athletes. IMO people don't want to acknowledge how ugly things are, because it doesn't directly affect them, so it's more difficult to really empathize with someone else's grievance.

And some vice versa. The police are always wrong no matter what facts come out.



The police should be held to a higher standard than normal civilians, and I want things to be better. I just choose not to shut off my ears to other people's complaints about how bad things are, over shirts and socks.
Not sure how that responds to what I said. My comment is about those who shut their ears to facts when the facts show that the behavior of the cop was justified.
RE: I don't think anyone is ignoring the problem  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 2:01 pm : link
In comment 13098020 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and only focusing on his clothes though. He could have accomplished a lot more in a published letter to law enforcement on his Twitter account, for example, with well a thought out idea and follow through. Instead he chose to piss off a large majority of people by disrespecting the flag, creating more division.

That is the argument, not his stance on police brutality which is legitimate.


UConn, people are giving more attention to the tertiary crap, then they are to the actual reason he's sitting. Sure, there are better, more effective avenues to send his message, but he's still bringing it attention.
Al, they were justified in the majority of the instances?  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 2:02 pm : link
.
And yet..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2016 2:03 pm : link
with all of this attention, even his biggest advocate on the board doesn't know what specific actions will get Kap to end the protest.

Why do you keep calling things tertiary? The thing that is most unclear is the primary thing - his message.
RE: Al, they were justified in the majority of the instances?  
Big Al : 9/1/2016 2:09 pm : link
In comment 13098038 David in LA said:
Quote:
.
I would guess police shootings are justified in most instances but we generally only discuss the controversial ones here. Yes there have been controversial ones here where it has been shown that the police actions were justified.
RE: And yet..  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 2:16 pm : link
In comment 13098041 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
with all of this attention, even his biggest advocate on the board doesn't know what specific actions will get Kap to end the protest.

Why do you keep calling things tertiary? The thing that is most unclear is the primary thing - his message.


Improvement in how the police are recruited, trained, and evaluated. That seems to be a meat of his argument, and I've pointed that out for you.
So..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2016 2:22 pm : link
what metric of improvement gets him to stop protesting. No police shootings for 21 days?

And you are a better man than I to figure out what his message is. I thought it was about oppressing minorities
Fatman, CK specifically pointed out higher standards in practices  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 2:29 pm : link
in hiring and training police officers. That's a start.
Greatest protest ever!!!  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/1/2016 2:33 pm : link
.
Link - ( New Window )
ok so you sit down and protest the standing for the flag routine  
GMAN4LIFE : 9/1/2016 2:51 pm : link
... cool... sounds good. now what? what are you going to do to help with the situation?

RE: ok so you sit down and protest the standing for the flag routine  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/1/2016 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13098114 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:
... cool... sounds good. now what? what are you going to do to help with the situation?


Click on the link above. Obviously, he's going to wear a pair of socks with cops depicted as pigs. Point made!
RE: Fatman, CK specifically pointed out higher standards in practices  
BigBlueShock : 9/1/2016 3:03 pm : link
In comment 13098075 David in LA said:
Quote:
in hiring and training police officers. That's a start.

What the hell does CK know about the training that goes into being a policeman? Or the hiring process? Perhaps if he'd take the SFPD up on their offer, he'd be more in tune with the risks that these policemen deal with on a daily basis. Some of them have been trigger happy. Sometimes a minority is on the losing end and in any case, these guys must be held accountable. If he wants to use accountability as his crying call, fine, but he seems to be moving the goal posts each and every day. Is it oppression of minorities in the entire country? Is it not holding BAD policemen accountable? Is it poor training? Poor hiring practices? He knows absolutely nothing about training and hiring practices. And you can blow off the shirt and socks all you want. It's hard to take a guys message seriously when he keeps changing his cause and wears a Castro shirt and pig wearing police hat socks. It all just seems so forced and fake on his part.

We all know there are bad cops out there doing bad things. But he has botched this entire thing and it's well wishing everyone's right to call him out on it. It just doesn't come across as sincere to me. Which is a shame, because we do have to address the issues.
As an aside, I have no problem with cops generally speaking.  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 3:10 pm : link
Their jobs are onerous and again, generally speaking, they have my utmost respect.

That said, I would love to know how thorough psyche evaluations are in assessing their qualifications for a life or death job..I'm concerned far more about emotional/mental states than I am the physical..
RE: So..  
BigBlueShock : 9/1/2016 3:11 pm : link
In comment 13098064 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
what metric of improvement gets him to stop protesting. No police shootings for 21 days?

And you are a better man than I to figure out what his message is. I thought it was about oppressing minorities

How about 21 days without shooting a minority? Shooting whites is likely ok in his book, since this is about oppressing minorities.
Im not going to read thru this whole thread  
B in ALB : 9/1/2016 3:13 pm : link
But I do find the pig cop socks to be pretty offensive and disrespectful to the police men and women who work hard, protect citizens and do their job well.
RE: RE: So..  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 3:34 pm : link
In comment 13098138 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 13098064 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


what metric of improvement gets him to stop protesting. No police shootings for 21 days?

And you are a better man than I to figure out what his message is. I thought it was about oppressing minorities


How about 21 days without shooting a minority? Shooting whites is likely ok in his book, since this is about oppressing minorities.


Really? Presumptuous comments like this is why race discussions go nowhere. It's the same logic that equates BLM to white people hate groups.
Yeah  
BigBlueShock : 9/1/2016 3:52 pm : link
I'm the reason race relations in this country suck. We should all listen to a guy wearing police hat wearing pigs on his socks. And Fidel Castro shirts. Now, there's the voice of reason.

And for the millionth time on this thread, you completely miss the point. My post had zero to do with race relations and everything to do with CK continuously moving the goal posts, based on public outcry and media attention. Police training and hiring practices are completely separate issues than this country oppressing minorities. So I simply put them both together, in jest, but leave it to you to cherry pick posts to find something to fit your agenda. Ive wasted enough time on this thread. Your mind is made up and nothing any of us say will change that. Those of us that think that he has botched this thing from the start will continue to get accused of not knowing there is a police brutality issue and we will also get accused of ignoring the racial divide. We've all acknowledged these issues, yet somehow you keep insinuating that's the brunt of our arguments.
RE: Im not going to read thru this whole thread  
Bill L : 9/1/2016 3:53 pm : link
In comment 13098142 B in ALB said:
Quote:
But I do find the pig cop socks to be pretty offensive and disrespectful to the police men and women who work hard, protect citizens and do their job well.
I think that pretty much puts him into the POS category. It's beyond offensive, past stars & bars waving and encroaching swastika-armband territory.
RE: Yeah  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 4:06 pm : link
In comment 13098186 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
I'm the reason race relations in this country suck. We should all listen to a guy wearing police hat wearing pigs on his socks. And Fidel Castro shirts. Now, there's the voice of reason.

And for the millionth time on this thread, you completely miss the point. My post had zero to do with race relations and everything to do with CK continuously moving the goal posts, based on public outcry and media attention. Police training and hiring practices are completely separate issues than this country oppressing minorities. So I simply put them both together, in jest, but leave it to you to cherry pick posts to find something to fit your agenda. Ive wasted enough time on this thread. Your mind is made up and nothing any of us say will change that. Those of us that think that he has botched this thing from the start will continue to get accused of not knowing there is a police brutality issue and we will also get accused of ignoring the racial divide. We've all acknowledged these issues, yet somehow you keep insinuating that's the brunt of our arguments.


I didn't say you're the reason, holy fuck. Comments like "I bet he's ok with cops killing a black guy" is the type of bullshit equivalency that doesn't help these type of conversations. YOu keep talking about moving goalposts, but to me, it seems like it's the people criticizing CK that are moving goalposts.

-Protests should be peaceful not violent.

-CK sits down for national anthem, in non violent protest outrage **TRIGGERED** Kick his ass! Find another country! His parents are white, what does he know about oppression?

-People wish celebrities would do more with their platform to make a stand on social issues.

-CK makes a stand by sitting, outrage **TRIGGERED** Not smart enough, not eloquent enough, not clear enough in his message, etc.

My point being is that there is probably no such thing as a true spokesperson in your eyes, or no method of delivery that is good enough, because they will always be picked apart. Just like the police threads, every victim has some jackass sticking up for the cops, no matter what.


I agree, this takes it to a different level  
AP in Halfmoon : 9/1/2016 4:08 pm : link
RE: RE: Im not going to read thru this whole thread  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 4:08 pm : link
In comment 13098188 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13098142 B in ALB said:


Quote:


But I do find the pig cop socks to be pretty offensive and disrespectful to the police men and women who work hard, protect citizens and do their job well.

I think that pretty much puts him into the POS category. It's beyond offensive, past stars & bars waving and encroaching swastika-armband territory.


He wears cartoon pig cop socks, yeah it's not nice, but you thinking it's past stars & bars waving and almost right up there with swastika armbands is fucking retarded.
BigBlueShock  
AP in Halfmoon : 9/1/2016 4:11 pm : link
It appears that you acknowledge police brutality is a problem. What do you get so upset over peaceful protests?

I believe people like Kap do nothing to improve the situation but it is a peaceful protest
CK addresses the socks  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 4:12 pm : link
but I'm sure some of you will choose to focus on the socks than the actual reason why he's doing all of this.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: BigBlueShock  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 4:14 pm : link
In comment 13098220 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
It appears that you acknowledge police brutality is a problem. What do you get so upset over peaceful protests?

I believe people like Kap do nothing to improve the situation but it is a peaceful protest


BBS has consistently been on the side that gets butthurt when race gets brought up. He acknowledges that brutality exists. Kind of. It's akin to saying "no offense, but (insert absurdly offensive comment)."
RE: RE: RE: Im not going to read thru this whole thread  
Bill L : 9/1/2016 4:16 pm : link
In comment 13098214 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13098188 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13098142 B in ALB said:


Quote:


But I do find the pig cop socks to be pretty offensive and disrespectful to the police men and women who work hard, protect citizens and do their job well.

I think that pretty much puts him into the POS category. It's beyond offensive, past stars & bars waving and encroaching swastika-armband territory.



He wears cartoon pig cop socks, yeah it's not nice, but you thinking it's past stars & bars waving and almost right up there with swastika armbands is fucking retarded.
I'll re-think to see if it was excessively hyperbolic. If it is, it's not by much. A statement of hate expressing a bigotry toward a specific group of people... it does lack the historical tangibles but in terms of his character, it definitely shows him to be despicable.
There's a difference between taking a shot at a group of people  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 4:20 pm : link
who are born the way they are than taking a shot at an occupation. Come on man.
I find the socks silly more than insulting.  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/1/2016 4:23 pm : link
When he's trying to put forth a serious protest, it just seems like there are better way of getting his point across than that. But hey, don't affect me, so, whatever.
RE: BigBlueShock  
BigBlueShock : 9/1/2016 4:25 pm : link
In comment 13098220 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
It appears that you acknowledge police brutality is a problem. What do you get so upset over peaceful protests?

I believe people like Kap do nothing to improve the situation but it is a peaceful protest

Wait, I got upset over this? You see....that's exactly what my point was. Those of us that think CK has botched this entire thing get accused of things that we never said. It's incredible. I have no problems with peaceful protests. In fact, I'm all for them. Not sure where you got that idea from. Saying that there are a ton of holes in this entire episode for CK has nothing to do with getting upset over a peaceful protest. My point is, we have no idea what he's protesting. He keeps changing his agenda with each passing day. And to rant about oppression and wear a Fidel Castro shirt is comical. We've already discussed the socks. How can you take his peaceful protest seriously when he comes out onto the field wearing those socks? These issues absolutely exist, but this has not been a well thought out process, IMO.

I can't believe I wasted more of my time explaining the same thing AGAIN. It has nothing to do with peaceful protest. He just looks like a complete moron with how he's trying to deliver whatever message it is he's trying to deliver, because none of us know what the hell that is.
He clarified the intent with the socks  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 4:26 pm : link
it's supposed to represent rogue cops who still hold their positions, that are creating a dangerous environment not just for the community, but also the good cops with good intentions.
RE: RE: BigBlueShock  
BigBlueShock : 9/1/2016 4:29 pm : link
In comment 13098227 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13098220 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


It appears that you acknowledge police brutality is a problem. What do you get so upset over peaceful protests?

I believe people like Kap do nothing to improve the situation but it is a peaceful protest



BBS has consistently been on the side that gets butthurt when race gets brought up. He acknowledges that brutality exists. Kind of. It's akin to saying "no offense, but (insert absurdly offensive comment)."

Usually the guy crying race is the biggest racist in the room. It is no secret on this board that is you. You will turn anything and everything into a race issue, and throw out the race card at the drop of a hat. I just have no problem calling you out on it. It's pathetic. And as I read this site daily, I know that just about everyone agrees with me. Your posts over time have proven it. I'd love to know what I've said on this thread that makes me a racist? Your reputation speaks for itself
RE: He clarified the intent with the socks  
Bill L : 9/1/2016 4:35 pm : link
In comment 13098255 David in LA said:
Quote:
it's supposed to represent rogue cops who still hold their positions, that are creating a dangerous environment not just for the community, but also the good cops with good intentions.
If that were actually true, then it would still go back to the early point about him having serious deficiencies in his messaging. He sits for the anthem and then has to go back and say it's because of this and not meant to disrespect them, he wears the fidel shirt but it's to message this and not to say that, he wears the socks but then has to clarify that it's meant to disrespect these but not disrespect them....Maybe if he wants to say something, criticize someone, whatever, maybe he should find a way to do it so that whatever he is saying pertains directly and specifically to the topic that interests him? Rather than making his target so specific and so general that it encompasses people and areas that he (supposedly) never meant to include.
LOL  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 4:40 pm : link
Quote:
Usually the guy crying race is the biggest racist in the room. It is no secret on this board that is you. You will turn anything and everything into a race issue, and throw out the race card at the drop of a hat. I just have no problem calling you out on it. It's pathetic. And as I read this site daily, I know that just about everyone agrees with me. Your posts over time have proven it. I'd love to know what I've said on this thread that makes me a racist? Your reputation speaks for itself


Wow, I must have really pissed you off. Something I said might have struck too close to home? How is the guy that is sticking up for someone's right to exercise their rights the biggest racist on the board? Who exactly am I racist against? YOu must have a masters in psychology to make proclamations that the person crying racist is racist (never cried racist, though). I think it's more pathetic that you continuously poo poo anything that refutes your notion of what's right or wrong. I never called anyone out for being a racist, I just said you're choosing not to listen to the other side. Hey, your interpretation that I said you're a racist is on you, not me.
RE: He clarified the intent with the socks  
UConn4523 : 9/1/2016 4:41 pm : link
In comment 13098255 David in LA said:
Quote:
it's supposed to represent rogue cops who still hold their positions, that are creating a dangerous environment not just for the community, but also the good cops with good intentions.


Ohh well in that case...

Come on man, do you honestly believe that? When people yell "pigs" when a patrol car cruises by is that always with an asterisk of "I only mean it if you are the bad ones"? CK had plenty of time to make an excuse for a pretty obvious passive aggressive shot at police.
RE: RE: He clarified the intent with the socks  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 4:42 pm : link
In comment 13098278 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13098255 David in LA said:


Quote:


it's supposed to represent rogue cops who still hold their positions, that are creating a dangerous environment not just for the community, but also the good cops with good intentions.

If that were actually true, then it would still go back to the early point about him having serious deficiencies in his messaging. He sits for the anthem and then has to go back and say it's because of this and not meant to disrespect them, he wears the fidel shirt but it's to message this and not to say that, he wears the socks but then has to clarify that it's meant to disrespect these but not disrespect them....Maybe if he wants to say something, criticize someone, whatever, maybe he should find a way to do it so that whatever he is saying pertains directly and specifically to the topic that interests him? Rather than making his target so specific and so general that it encompasses people and areas that he (supposedly) never meant to include.


Translation: He should protest in a more quiet manner that doesn't make headlines, or in a manner that I deem more palatable so we don't get people talking outside of their comfort zones.
RE: RE: He clarified the intent with the socks  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 4:43 pm : link
In comment 13098294 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13098255 David in LA said:


Quote:


it's supposed to represent rogue cops who still hold their positions, that are creating a dangerous environment not just for the community, but also the good cops with good intentions.



Ohh well in that case...

Come on man, do you honestly believe that? When people yell "pigs" when a patrol car cruises by is that always with an asterisk of "I only mean it if you are the bad ones"? CK had plenty of time to make an excuse for a pretty obvious passive aggressive shot at police.


People rushed out to make their own interpretations without asking him himself what statement the socks were supposed to make.
RE: RE: He clarified the intent with the socks  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/1/2016 4:45 pm : link
In comment 13098294 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13098255 David in LA said:


Quote:


it's supposed to represent rogue cops who still hold their positions, that are creating a dangerous environment not just for the community, but also the good cops with good intentions.



Ohh well in that case...

Come on man, do you honestly believe that? When people yell "pigs" when a patrol car cruises by is that always with an asterisk of "I only mean it if you are the bad ones"? CK had plenty of time to make an excuse for a pretty obvious passive aggressive shot at police.


Weak answer he gave, too. Makes him look bad.

Colin can protest in anyway he damn well pleases. But that doesn't mean he's not going to get called out on something when he does something out there or something that doesn't exactly help his protest.
David  
UConn4523 : 9/1/2016 5:00 pm : link
you are a good dude, but I simply cannot agree on that and I'm kind of surprised you are defending him to this level. He's clearly making a statement against cops, yet he's backtracking to cover himself when called out on everything he's done wrong. You can make an excuse for anything, and that's what he's doing.

Its a bad look, and its incredibly hard to take him seriously, which is why I don't. He's tarnishing what should be a meaningful and strong message by acting like a child.
RE: He clarified the intent with the socks  
pjcas18 : 9/1/2016 5:03 pm : link
In comment 13098255 David in LA said:
Quote:
it's supposed to represent rogue cops who still hold their positions, that are creating a dangerous environment not just for the community, but also the good cops with good intentions.


I know if you thought about that explanation you'd find it just as flimsy as someone wearing a confederate shirt but saying it only stands for "the good" part of Southern Heritage.

you can't pick and choose who you plan to offend when you do something intentionally offensive.
UConn, I'm surprised too, because I thought very little  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 5:09 pm : link
of him as a player and could care less. I guess I'm just a tad bit frustrated with some of the stuff I'm seeing (not just on BBI), not from you, I hold you in high esteem as a poster here. What I certainly don't appreciate is shitheads like BBS chiming in saying I'm more racist than anybody else, because I "cry" racism on "every thread". That type of labeling and hyperbole can only come from lowest common denominator type thinkers. Posters like that, and the posters who wish physical harm over something like this, just puts the checkmark on my opinion that we are living in a real life idiocracy.
RE: RE: He clarified the intent with the socks  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 5:12 pm : link
In comment 13098329 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13098255 David in LA said:


Quote:


it's supposed to represent rogue cops who still hold their positions, that are creating a dangerous environment not just for the community, but also the good cops with good intentions.



I know if you thought about that explanation you'd find it just as flimsy as someone wearing a confederate shirt but saying it only stands for "the good" part of Southern Heritage.

you can't pick and choose who you plan to offend when you do something intentionally offensive.


PJ, but there's a stark difference in offending what you're born with, than a small percentage of a specific occupation.
RE: RE: RE: He clarified the intent with the socks  
pjcas18 : 9/1/2016 5:20 pm : link
In comment 13098350 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13098329 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13098255 David in LA said:


Quote:


it's supposed to represent rogue cops who still hold their positions, that are creating a dangerous environment not just for the community, but also the good cops with good intentions.



I know if you thought about that explanation you'd find it just as flimsy as someone wearing a confederate shirt but saying it only stands for "the good" part of Southern Heritage.

you can't pick and choose who you plan to offend when you do something intentionally offensive.



PJ, but there's a stark difference in offending what you're born with, than a small percentage of a specific occupation.


that's not the point and this is just my opinion. wearing socks that have pigs with police hats on is offensive to almost 100% of police men and women. not just the ones he is intending to offend or has issue with.

Just like wearing a confederate flag shirt regardless of your intentions is offensive to almost 100% of African Americans.

you can't use the n-word and say "I wasn't talking about you (colloquially) when I used it"

hate and prejudice don't work selectively that way.
Shocking!  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2016 5:31 pm : link
ESPN has reversed course. They will now show the Rams/49ers anthem
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: He clarified the intent with the socks  
Bill L : 9/1/2016 5:57 pm : link
In comment 13098295 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13098278 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13098255 David in LA said:


Quote:


it's supposed to represent rogue cops who still hold their positions, that are creating a dangerous environment not just for the community, but also the good cops with good intentions.

If that were actually true, then it would still go back to the early point about him having serious deficiencies in his messaging. He sits for the anthem and then has to go back and say it's because of this and not meant to disrespect them, he wears the fidel shirt but it's to message this and not to say that, he wears the socks but then has to clarify that it's meant to disrespect these but not disrespect them....Maybe if he wants to say something, criticize someone, whatever, maybe he should find a way to do it so that whatever he is saying pertains directly and specifically to the topic that interests him? Rather than making his target so specific and so general that it encompasses people and areas that he (supposedly) never meant to include.



Translation: He should protest in a more quiet manner that doesn't make headlines, or in a manner that I deem more palatable so we don't get people talking outside of their comfort zones.
Actually, while you might aspire to be Berlitz, I meant exactly what I said.
RE: RE: RE: He clarified the intent with the socks  
Bill L : 9/1/2016 5:59 pm : link
In comment 13098350 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13098329 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13098255 David in LA said:


Quote:


it's supposed to represent rogue cops who still hold their positions, that are creating a dangerous environment not just for the community, but also the good cops with good intentions.



I know if you thought about that explanation you'd find it just as flimsy as someone wearing a confederate shirt but saying it only stands for "the good" part of Southern Heritage.

you can't pick and choose who you plan to offend when you do something intentionally offensive.



PJ, but there's a stark difference in offending what you're born with, than a small percentage of a specific occupation.
translation, only that to which I disagree is offensive. If I agree, then it's hunky dory fine.
Bill, if you're born a certain way, a disparaging comment on that is  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 6:28 pm : link
much more offensive than any type of remark on someone's occupation. The fact that your translation is what you took out of my comment is in it self highlighting your disconnect on why various segments are upset right now. It's a piss poor equivalency.
Chill out  
Thegratefulhead : 9/1/2016 6:30 pm : link
Could we all just stop trying to find reasons to be offended and outraged? Do not be manipulated by the media. An idiot did not stand up for the national anthem....so what? It is not an offense to every American or veteran. I feel like everyone loves to be angry, our news cycles are about what is the next thing that pisses everyone off. You know, if you do not acknowledge the poor behavior it is often not repeated. It is parenting 101, making a big deal out nothing only encourages people. You are literally rewarding people for doing dumb shit by giving them the attention they want.
RE: Bill, if you're born a certain way, a disparaging comment on that is  
Bill L : 9/1/2016 6:33 pm : link
In comment 13098417 David in LA said:
Quote:
much more offensive than any type of remark on someone's occupation. The fact that your translation is what you took out of my comment is in it self highlighting your disconnect on why various segments are upset right now. It's a piss poor equivalency.
i think it's really a stretch to say that birth is the only delineator of when something is offensive. Can converted Jews never be targets of antiSemitism?
And I suppose you're too young to remember the  
Bill L : 9/1/2016 6:35 pm : link
Garbage men v sanitation engineer brouhaha or why we expunged stewardesses from our lexicon.
Sure, you can throw religion in there, but that's blurring the line  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 6:40 pm : link
between ethnicity, culture, and religion. Occupational remarks are not in the same ballpark. OTOH it seems ok for posters here to make anti muslim remarks around here, so...
RE: And I suppose you're too young to remember the  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 6:44 pm : link
In comment 13098429 Bill L said:
Quote:
Garbage men v sanitation engineer brouhaha or why we expunged stewardesses from our lexicon.


Probably, I can't say that I remember that brouhaha. I see what you're saying here. I cringe when parents make comments to their children when pointing out garbage men and telling them to stay in school so that's not them someday. There's an implied stigma against blue collar jobs (implied classism), which we don't encourage our kids enough that it's ok to consider a trade that's not white collar.
This is one of the cases where  
adamg : 9/1/2016 8:15 pm : link
most everyone is arguing ad hominem. And it's done rightfully so.

The point of the criticism is that Kap is a jackass. Dave is taking the ad hominem arguments and turning them into dismissals of real issues.

Yet no one has come on and said the oppression reference by Kap isn't an issue.

And just when you thought the lazy and cheap protestations couldn't be augmented, he wears cops are pigs socks... what a precocious fuck.
I can't even..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2016 8:17 pm : link
fathom the excuse about pig cop socks intending to be aimed just at dirty cops.

And if that was his intention, he's naive as fuck to think people would be OK with that explanation. Try and name any symbol in history that is meant as a slap at just a segment of a segment. If I wear a swastika, would people buy my reasoning that I'm doing it in an ironic protest of uppity Aryans?

The other reason it is farcical is because David, you wouldn't be so forgiving if the symbol was any type of slap at minorities, intended or not.
The best part is  
BigBlueShock : 9/1/2016 8:24 pm : link
David getting to decide that people born a certain way get to be more offended than those that choose a profession. I mean, that's great stuff there. Where's that in the rule book? And as long as CK comes up with an after the fact reason for why he's wearing cops are pigs socks, it's all good? Hey, he gave his reasons! That's the important thing! Doesn't matter how ridiculous or ignorant his reasons are.
Adam, the real issue is that we can improve how LEO's operate  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 8:27 pm : link
it seems that people will quickly affirm that, but then focus intently on all the other stuff.
RE: Adam, the real issue is that we can improve how LEO's operate  
adamg : 9/1/2016 8:31 pm : link
In comment 13098810 David in LA said:
Quote:
it seems that people will quickly affirm that, but then focus intently on all the other stuff.


You're wrong. The REAL issue is that Kap is a jackass, stealing the NFL's huge audience in order to push an agenda he knows too little about.

The headline has Kap's name. It's self-aggrandizing, cheap politics that was transparent from the get-got, except for ideologues like yourself apparently.
RE: I can't even..  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 8:50 pm : link
In comment 13098773 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
fathom the excuse about pig cop socks intending to be aimed just at dirty cops.

And if that was his intention, he's naive as fuck to think people would be OK with that explanation. Try and name any symbol in history that is meant as a slap at just a segment of a segment. If I wear a swastika, would people buy my reasoning that I'm doing it in an ironic protest of uppity Aryans?

The other reason it is farcical is because David, you wouldn't be so forgiving if the symbol was any type of slap at minorities, intended or not.


To your first point, he didn't think it through. It doesn't invalidate the reason why he's sitting. It just invalidates him to certain audiences. However, the point is he's drawing attention to himself as a vessel for a serious issue. The dialogue between us is focused on the smaller fish that needs to be fried.

Your second point: There's often implied inherent inferiority when making remarks about minorities based on ethnicity, that's why it's not in the same ballpark as a remark on someone's occupation. That's why I'm less forgiving on slaps on minorities.
RE: The best part is  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 8:55 pm : link
In comment 13098801 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
David getting to decide that people born a certain way get to be more offended than those that choose a profession. I mean, that's great stuff there. Where's that in the rule book? And as long as CK comes up with an after the fact reason for why he's wearing cops are pigs socks, it's all good? Hey, he gave his reasons! That's the important thing! Doesn't matter how ridiculous or ignorant his reasons are.


I'm not deciding anything for you. You can choose to think how you want. I have my reasons for my opinions on these issues, because I think they are important. You can choose to hear me out, or you can continue to be defensive of every talking point that makes you uncomfortable. Part of maturity is also being able to decipher what the main issue really is, and what else is tertiary to the cause itself. Colin's socks, and shirt is minutia compared to the bad apples that make good cops look bad.
RE: RE: Adam, the real issue is that we can improve how LEO's operate  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 9:02 pm : link
In comment 13098827 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 13098810 David in LA said:


Quote:


it seems that people will quickly affirm that, but then focus intently on all the other stuff.



You're wrong. The REAL issue is that Kap is a jackass, stealing the NFL's huge audience in order to push an agenda he knows too little about.

The headline has Kap's name. It's self-aggrandizing, cheap politics that was transparent from the get-got, except for ideologues like yourself apparently.


Oh really? People stopped watching the NFL? The audience will be there for a while, because the NFL is a money printing machine. One of the talking points floated around about athletes is that they don't leverage their celebrity enough towards causes, but when they choose to do so, they are now self aggrandizing.
Makes me uncomfortable?  
BigBlueShock : 9/1/2016 9:09 pm : link
What the hell is that supposed to mean? im uncomfortable because you have decided that people born a certain way get to feel more offended than those that choose certain professions. You don't get to decide who's offended by anything, and how much. It's funny, my stance is the exact stance you've taken on many, many threads, as far as people being offended. But in this instance, it doesn't fit your agenda, so it's different.

That's your problem. Anyone that doesn't agree with you is either "uncomfortable" or racist. It's your calling card.
RE: RE: RE: Adam, the real issue is that we can improve how LEO's operate  
adamg : 9/1/2016 9:13 pm : link
In comment 13098957 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13098827 adamg said:


Quote:


In comment 13098810 David in LA said:


Quote:


it seems that people will quickly affirm that, but then focus intently on all the other stuff.



You're wrong. The REAL issue is that Kap is a jackass, stealing the NFL's huge audience in order to push an agenda he knows too little about.

The headline has Kap's name. It's self-aggrandizing, cheap politics that was transparent from the get-got, except for ideologues like yourself apparently.



Oh really? People stopped watching the NFL? The audience will be there for a while, because the NFL is a money printing machine. One of the talking points floated around about athletes is that they don't leverage their celebrity enough towards causes, but when they choose to do so, they are now self aggrandizing.


Ok, King of Take It Out of Context.

The topic is Colin Kaepernick. He's the only person I'm talking about (re: self-aggrandizing), aside from you and your willful ignorance, supercilious nonsense, and talking past and above people

Get that in your head, douchebag. You aren't the only one who cares about politics and issues of violence. And dropping to your knees for Kaepernick does absolutely NOTHING to help those causes, especially when no one denies those issues.

Keep talking around the topic though. You've done it for 6 pages now...
How did I decide anything? I gave my reasons behind it for you.  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 9:19 pm : link
I didn't drop down from the cosmos to tell you what's offensive or not. I think remarks on ethnicity is much worse than an occupational comment. To me it's in a different stratosphere.
RE: How did I decide anything? I gave my reasons behind it for you.  
Bill L : 9/1/2016 9:22 pm : link
In comment 13099003 David in LA said:
Quote:
I didn't drop down from the cosmos to tell you what's offensive or not. I think remarks on ethnicity is much worse than an occupational comment. To me it's in a different stratosphere.
i guess people are entitled to different scales for offensiveness, but even less offensive is still offensive. So, why ignore it altogether?
I'm dropping to my knees for CK when I said I had a low opinion  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 9:23 pm : link
of him as a player. I simply think his grievance is legitimate, and simply think that the conversation about stuff aroundt the grievance is a waste of everyone's time.
RE: RE: How did I decide anything? I gave my reasons behind it for you.  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 9:29 pm : link
In comment 13099009 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13099003 David in LA said:


Quote:


I didn't drop down from the cosmos to tell you what's offensive or not. I think remarks on ethnicity is much worse than an occupational comment. To me it's in a different stratosphere.

i guess people are entitled to different scales for offensiveness, but even less offensive is still offensive. So, why ignore it altogether?


I personally wouldn't do the socks or the shirt, my point is that any perceived miscue on his part shouldn't take away from us talking about what he's trying to draw attention to. We shouldn't expect athletes to be as polished as a politician who has been around the block. He's an imperfect spokesperson, so what?
RE: I'm dropping to my knees for CK when I said I had a low opinion  
adamg : 9/1/2016 9:35 pm : link
In comment 13099013 David in LA said:
Quote:
of him as a player. I simply think his grievance is legitimate, and simply think that the conversation about stuff aroundt the grievance is a waste of everyone's time.


Then you should criticize HIS protest. He's sullying the issue by diminishing it and making it easier to dismiss.
RE: How did I decide anything? I gave my reasons behind it for you.  
BigBlueShock : 9/1/2016 9:41 pm : link
In comment 13099003 David in LA said:
Quote:
I didn't drop down from the cosmos to tell you what's offensive or not. I think remarks on ethnicity is much worse than an occupational comment. To me it's in a different stratosphere.

That's great. But I'm sure people that get shot at while sitting in a squad car simply because they are wearing the uniform may feel a bit differently. These simple "remarks" that you speak of often have consequences at some level, and if CK is truly trying to help the situation, wearing those socks sure isn't the way to go about it. You may think it's insignificant, but it's not. Not by a long stretch. It's feeding the idea that cops are pigs. And this isn't helping anything.
it's totally freedom of speech  
feelflows : 9/1/2016 9:51 pm : link
That being said, I hope he needs an officer one day. And I hope that officer takes his/her sweet ass time getting there.
It's just flawed logic  
BigBlueShock : 9/1/2016 10:05 pm : link
We should pay attention to the message that he was sending by not standing for the national anthem, because it's important. But we should dismiss the message that he was sending by wearing cop hating socks out onto the field, because, well, I'm not quite sure why. You can't have it both ways.
RE: It's just flawed logic  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 10:11 pm : link
In comment 13099165 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
We should pay attention to the message that he was sending by not standing for the national anthem, because it's important. But we should dismiss the message that he was sending by wearing cop hating socks out onto the field, because, well, I'm not quite sure why. You can't have it both ways.


Somehow you keep missing my point. The greater grievance is the one that should be addressed first.
RE: RE: It's just flawed logic  
adamg : 9/1/2016 10:13 pm : link
In comment 13099189 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13099165 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


We should pay attention to the message that he was sending by not standing for the national anthem, because it's important. But we should dismiss the message that he was sending by wearing cop hating socks out onto the field, because, well, I'm not quite sure why. You can't have it both ways.



Somehow you keep missing my point. The greater grievance is the one that should be addressed first.


Alright. Let's address it. You go first...
Remember when Jose Canseco's steroid claims were dismissed  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 10:13 pm : link
because he's perceived to be an attention starved whore? He's an attention starved whore, yeah, but what he aired out was still legitimate.
Adam, sure  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 10:14 pm : link
Police should have more refined practices in hiring, training, and evaluation of their work. It's a broad demand, but it's a start.
Holy shit  
BigBlueShock : 9/1/2016 10:14 pm : link
You are impossible. Good night.
Check out CK's tee shirt  
EricJ : 9/1/2016 10:16 pm : link
is he now a Fidel Castro fan? People weren't oppressed in Cuba were they?

It could be just a tee shirt. OR.. he CK trying to say something? We will find out I am sure.

RE: Check out CK's tee shirt  
RC02XX : 9/1/2016 10:28 pm : link
In comment 13099215 EricJ said:
Quote:
is he now a Fidel Castro fan? People weren't oppressed in Cuba were they?

It could be just a tee shirt. OR.. he CK trying to say something? We will find out I am sure.



This was covered like five or six pages ago.
RE: RE: Check out CK's tee shirt  
EricJ : 9/1/2016 10:37 pm : link
In comment 13099255 RC02XX said:
Quote:
In comment 13099215 EricJ said:


Quote:


is he now a Fidel Castro fan? People weren't oppressed in Cuba were they?

It could be just a tee shirt. OR.. he CK trying to say something? We will find out I am sure.





This was covered like five or six pages ago.

sorry...was not reading 14 pages of the thread
LOL...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2016 10:41 pm : link
Quote:
Remember when Jose Canseco's steroid claims were dismissed
David in LA : 10:13 pm : link : reply
because he's perceived to be an attention starved whore? He's an attention starved whore, yeah, but what he aired out was still legitimate.


And because Canseco was such a buffoon, none of his claims were ever investigated seriously. You've gotten to the point where you're making the same arguments we are without knowing it!
Yeah we're just talking past each other FMiC  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 10:44 pm : link
Canseco's claims were still legitimate. Just because he's not a perfect person, doesn't take away from the fact that something went on. People chose to waste time and resources worrying about the minutia, instead of wondering if there's any legitimacy to said claims.
But the thing is..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2016 11:21 pm : link
he's actually detracting from the legitimate points because he's either not making them or he doesn't have credibility.

Just like Canseco. It isn't talking past one another - you keep thinking that no matter how derelict the messenger is in getting his point across that we need to discuss the message.

To give an example from BBI - people who rip on the team may have a point valid to discuss, but if their handle is ReeseEatsCock and all he keeps posting is "Reese sucks!" is it incumbent on us to give him an ear?

You aren't being consistent on how you approach other topics and I say this as someone who treats you with respect that you've earned. Had you been one of the usual suspects being this obtuse, you can bet I would've given at least a couple "fucktard" callouts by now:)
FMiC appreciate the kind words. I hold you in high esteem as well.  
David in LA : 9/1/2016 11:28 pm : link
I am pretty bullheaded on this, I'll just agree to disagree here. cant wait for this fucking season to start already
Seattle CB Lane  
Big Blue '56 : 9/2/2016 7:54 am : link
sits
Link - ( New Window )
Didn't realize Kaep's teammate  
Big Blue '56 : 9/2/2016 11:06 am : link
Reid say next to him as well
Back to the Corner