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Coughlin Offense vs. McAdoo Offense

Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 9:58 am
I'm stirring up a bees nest, but...

Coughlin's offense was built around throwing the ball deep, and moving guys around to create mismatches. McAdoo's offense thus far appears to be just lining up in the same formation and throwing short passes under 10 yards. Under Coughlin, for years we led the league in passes and completions over 15-20 yards.

One has to wonder how much of Coughlin's offense last year was responsible for the offensive success? The personnel is actually better this year than last.

How much of Coughlin's offense was still installed last year in addition to McAdoo's, maybe a hybrid of sorts? Coughlin's philosophy was always to take shots downfield, something that has seemingly all but disappeared since his dismissal. Beckham also lined up in the slot a lot more to create mismatches.

Might eventually have to chalk this one up in the "grass isn't always greener" category. I know that won't be popular, and will bring out the fangs of the Fire Coughlin crowd, but if you're being honest with yourself, what else can you attribute it to?

Last year's offense with this year's defense would be playoff bound.
always important to note  
area junc : 10/28/2016 10:07 am : link
there isn't right and wrong answers in football philosophy.

i hate the WCO for the Giants. Always have. It's a fair weather, southern offense that has no place in the cold, windy conditions of the NorthEast. Come December, there is nothing like having a power running game.

And the overall strategy of pounding the rock, forcing a S up and going deep will never get old. I remember in Gilbride's playbook it said down & distance didn't even matter much because all the plays were designed to rip off chunks.
You're not stirring up anything, just trying to justify  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 10:10 am : link
that we should have kept Coughlin. The results were every bit as bad last year - if anything, we should have dumped the entire coaching staff.

As for Reese, it seems his past couple of drafts have produced talent, but after a full change of the coaching staff, if the team's performance didn't improve, he should have been the next one to go.
"The results were every bit as bad last year"  
drkenneth : 10/28/2016 10:12 am : link
With the minor exception that we are winning games. (Little tidbit there).

This team is 4-3 correct?

Coughlin is no longer an NFL coach. Get over it.
Its a valid question  
Brandon Walsh : 10/28/2016 10:17 am : link
and certainly one that's debate worthy.

Another thing I'll point out, is in the Coughlin offense, the slot WR was always open whether it was studs like Steve Smith/Victor Cruz or slobs like Preston Parker (didn't say they always caught the ball)

We have now what should be an absolute stud in the slot with his skillset in Shepard and outside of the first three games, he's been an afterthought.

I actually think the Giants should think of playing Cruz more in the slot and Shepard outside for some snaps opposed to each playing 100% where they currently are. At least switch it up a little and see if it works better.

A work in progress...
RE:  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 10:17 am : link
In comment 13194263 drkenneth said:
Quote:
With the minor exception that we are winning games. (Little tidbit there).

This team is 4-3 correct?

Coughlin is no longer an NFL coach. Get over it.


Eh - it's not even halfway through the year. In general, the team looks very much the same, sloppy, undisciplined football.

I was an advocate for TC's dismissal, and my mind hasn't changed. He needed to go. I'm just not sure they replaced him with the right people.

Of course, for some reason that triggers a 'WHY NOT REESE!' reaction in some people. It's a fair question - but since a GM gets evaluated on a longer timeline, and he is dependent on the coaching staff for personnel input, you have to start with the coaches and then go to the GM. Well, the first draft without Coughlin seems to have been a good one so far (early yet!). Reese has done a good job of acquiring talent, but if the results don't change soon, he's going to be out of work as well.
Since we're just copying and pasting from the other thread  
mako J : 10/28/2016 10:18 am : link
Doubtful that Coughlin was involved in specific play calling. But the difference may actually be Coughlin's favorite buzz word, balance.

I'm not referring to just run vs pass. Balance also applies to tendancies, formations, personnel groups, etc.

Looks to me like an offensive minded position coach got the keys to car, and decided he was going to drive it his way (96% 11) and is now seeing it through the old man's lens.

Lastly, don't think for a minute that not having a boss evaluate his performance every Sunday night into early hours of Monday morning isn't a factor here either. First time in Ben's career that's the case. With TC's oversight, there's no way the offense is this singular.

First year growing pains. I think he'll respond. And thank God Spags and the defense have gotten their act together...thanks for the help Jerry...finally.
Points for through 7 games last year:  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 10:18 am : link
26
20
32
24
30
7
27
166 Points for through 7 games.

Ended up the season with 420, good for 6th in the NFL. Defense was the problem last year.

Points for through 7 games this year:

20
16
27
10
16
27
17
133 Point for through 7 games

Good for 25th in the NFL currently.
RE:  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 10:19 am : link
In comment 13194263 drkenneth said:
Quote:
With the minor exception that we are winning games. (Little tidbit there).

This team is 4-3 correct?

Coughlin is no longer an NFL coach. Get over it.


The 2015 team was 4-3 also, at this point last year.
So there's that little tidbit as well.  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 10:20 am : link
.
RE: So there's that little tidbit as well.  
drkenneth : 10/28/2016 10:22 am : link
In comment 13194284 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


We get it Britt. You love Coughlin. It's too bad he's changing water into wine in the NFL offices.

Can we maybe focus on our current coach and path forward?
Path forward ain't looking to hot.  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 10:24 am : link
For 10 years (yes, since 2006) we've had to deal with the Fire Coughlin crowd every year...

Pardon me if it's a little hard to resist saying "be careful what you wish for"...
The irony to pointing out the team is the same as last year  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 10:25 am : link
Is that minus TC, the team is no worse off.

So, if the argument was that TC was a great coach (and I believe he was for a very long stretch), the results don't prove that to be the case.
tidbit - would be a great name for a snack food  
GiantsUA : 10/28/2016 10:26 am : link
When the offensive line is shaky, long passes may not be in the equation.
RE: The irony to pointing out the team is the same as last year  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 10:28 am : link
In comment 13194289 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Is that minus TC, the team is no worse off.

So, if the argument was that TC was a great coach (and I believe he was for a very long stretch), the results don't prove that to be the case.


The team's roster is better than last year. Put this year's defense on last year's team and we're in the playoffs. Add Sterling Sheppard and Victor Cruz to last year's team and they are better.

The coaching, specifically offensive, is glaringly worse.
I think last year..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/28/2016 10:28 am : link
at this time we were 4-3 AND in first place.

Right?
RE: I think last year..  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 10:28 am : link
In comment 13194299 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
at this time we were 4-3 AND in first place.

Right?


Yes.
RE: RE: The irony to pointing out the team is the same as last year  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 10:30 am : link
In comment 13194298 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194289 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Is that minus TC, the team is no worse off.

So, if the argument was that TC was a great coach (and I believe he was for a very long stretch), the results don't prove that to be the case.



The team's roster is better than last year. Put this year's defense on last year's team and we're in the playoffs. Add Sterling Sheppard and Victor Cruz to last year's team and they are better.

The coaching, specifically offensive, is glaringly worse.


Last year's defense was holding up at first too, but the offense was letting it down, and in mostly the same way - boneheaded mistakes, bad decisions (time management in particular on offense). The roster is better, but the records of the teams we've played thus far have been much better than last year.
RE: The irony to pointing out the team is the same as last year  
dorgan : 10/28/2016 10:30 am : link
In comment 13194289 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Is that minus TC, the team is no worse off.

So, if the argument was that TC was a great coach (and I believe he was for a very long stretch), the results don't prove that to be the case.


After a 200 million dollar spending spree "no worse off" is not good enough. That being said, the book is still out on Mac and I'm hoping he grows into the job.

He's our coach now and I'll support him until I lose all confidence in him. That point might be approaching but it's not here yet.
No argument that the roster is better, and should be playing better.  
drkenneth : 10/28/2016 10:30 am : link
I agree 100%.

But the whole "Tom Coughlin was wronged" garbage is a bit much.

It was time.
RE: No argument that the roster is better, and should be playing better.  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 10:31 am : link
In comment 13194308 drkenneth said:
Quote:
I agree 100%.

But the whole "Tom Coughlin was wronged" garbage is a bit much.

It was time.


Then let's just focus on the Couhlin offense vs. McAdoo offense, then.
Comparing  
dorgan : 10/28/2016 10:36 am : link
the two offenses is like comparing black and white. One is a high risk, high reward offense. One is low risk, low reward.

The blend that they had last year was pretty good. We took enough shots to keep people from flooding the underneath zones with defenders. We need to address that in some way. I'm not convinced it's as easy as saying "we need a TE". That will help, but unless you start forcing the issue with well timed deeper routes, you're still stymied.
RE: Comparing  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 10:37 am : link
In comment 13194321 dorgan said:
Quote:
the two offenses is like comparing black and white. One is a high risk, high reward offense. One is low risk, low reward.

The blend that they had last year was pretty good. We took enough shots to keep people from flooding the underneath zones with defenders. We need to address that in some way. I'm not convinced it's as easy as saying "we need a TE". That will help, but unless you start forcing the issue with well timed deeper routes, you're still stymied.


I personally found the revelation that we're in the same offensive package/formation 96% of the time very alarming. I mean, how can you justify that? Is that the gameplan, or lack thereof?
Imagine Flowers  
area junc : 10/28/2016 10:38 am : link
in Coughlin/Gilbride's offense, at RT. Beast.
Same with Shepard in the slot. He'd be open all day. Pugh and Richburg would be good in the Seubert/O'Hara roles.

Beckham at Split End, getting all those isos and working deep off play action would be a thing of beauty.

We got rid of the coaching staff when the players needed to be replaced. The system worked and was perfect for the climate we play in.

We finally reloaded the roster but the old ball coach isn't here anymore.
RE: RE: The irony to pointing out the team is the same as last year  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 10:39 am : link
In comment 13194307 dorgan said:
Quote:
In comment 13194289 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Is that minus TC, the team is no worse off.

So, if the argument was that TC was a great coach (and I believe he was for a very long stretch), the results don't prove that to be the case.



After a 200 million dollar spending spree "no worse off" is not good enough. That being said, the book is still out on Mac and I'm hoping he grows into the job.

He's our coach now and I'll support him until I lose all confidence in him. That point might be approaching but it's not here yet.


You're right - and the fact that the offense has taken a step backward with upgrades is definitely a problem.

But thus far, we've faced tougher opposition than we had at this point last year. We got Romo without Bryant for half the game, then a Romo-less and Dez-less Cowboy team. We had the Eagles in Kelly's farewell season, two teams that mustered 8-8 in Buffalo and Atlanta, and the Redskins.

So far, we've played teams with good records and at full strength, and with the exception of the Minnesota game we've been competitive.
They need a threat at RB/TE....They will start working in  
drkenneth : 10/28/2016 10:40 am : link
Perkins/Adams.....Getting the running game going with a more explosive player would help a ton.

Enough of Donnell.

Stretch the field more.

Let's see what happens after the bye.

What's the worst that can happen? We lose to the Eagles, like we always do?
RE: Imagine Flowers  
drkenneth : 10/28/2016 10:41 am : link
In comment 13194327 area junc said:
Quote:
in Coughlin/Gilbride's offense, at RT. Beast.
Same with Shepard in the slot. He'd be open all day. Pugh and Richburg would be good in the Seubert/O'Hara roles.

Beckham at Split End, getting all those isos and working deep off play action would be a thing of beauty.

We got rid of the coaching staff when the players needed to be replaced. The system worked and was perfect for the climate we play in.

We finally reloaded the roster but the old ball coach isn't here anymore.


Who's playing LT in this magical Coughlin/Gilbride offense?
Coughlin should have gone a year earlier  
est1986 : 10/28/2016 10:47 am : link
Or stayed to spend the big money we had this offseason.. You don't get rid of one of the best WR coaches ever when you have the biggest and brightest super star we've ever had at WR. Reese failed this team for years not addressing the OL position and LB position. Coughlin paid for it.
Flaw in this line of thinking  
Jim in Fairfax : 10/28/2016 10:57 am : link
Is that it was a "Coughlin Offense". It was a Gilbride offense and its been gone for 3 years. They ran a MCAdoo offense last year, as well as this year.

The reason for the decline is plain as day: they have no rushing attack. They lost their FB and did not replace him. Their lead back has declined with age.

Until defenses have some reason to respect the running game, it's not going to get better.
Offense  
stretch234 : 10/28/2016 10:58 am : link
Is the offense really different through 7 games

Look at the numbers:

2015: Eli

168-259 64.8% 1773 yds 6.8 YPA 11-4 TD-INT

2016: Eli

175-270 64.8% 1984 yds 7.3 YPA 8-6 TD-Int

rushing - Taking out kneel downs

2015: 173-636 3.6 YPC 4 TD's

2016: 147-492 3.3 YPC 4 TD's

The only thing I see is when the offense had the lead early/tied they ran better. The last 4 games, they have been behind by 2 scores by mid 2nd qtr.

They have scored 1st qtr TD's in only 1 game, and the 3rd qtr as well

Are the TO's the biggest reason. last year through 7 games they were plus 10, this year they are -7
Yiou are a brave man  
HomerJones45 : 10/28/2016 11:01 am : link
Hey, we have the "simple", "qb friendly" offense that everyone wanted.

We have the head coach that everyone was dying to get and everyone was afraid to lose because of his vast experience and knowledge of offense.

We got rid of the assistants that everyone blamed and kept the ones everyone wanted.

We spent the $200 million everyone wanted on the free agents everyone wanted and spent the #1 pick on defensive player.

We got Cruz back and added Shepard, who everyone said was the next Jerry Rice.

We got rid of the players everyone wanted to get rid of.

And the results have been the same as last year when the wideouts were Parker and Randle, we started a rookie LT and we were starting a defense half of which is no longer in the League.

Considering drken, Greg and their fellow travelers all insisted this was a playoff team last year ruined by a senile old man, the results so far have been underwhelming.

Playoffs boys, playoffs. Anything else will be a failure after Benny Mac was handed so much.
RE:  
Johnny5 : 10/28/2016 11:02 am : link
In comment 13194263 drkenneth said:
Quote:
With the minor exception that we are winning games. (Little tidbit there).

This team is 4-3 correct?

Coughlin is no longer an NFL coach. Get over it.

You are neglecting the fact that we added quite a bit to the defensive side of the ball this offseason, which, if Coughlin had last year we are not even having this conversation now. We lost 5 games in the 4th quarter last year.
RE: Yiou are a brave man  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 11:06 am : link
In comment 13194369 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Hey, we have the "simple", "qb friendly" offense that everyone wanted.

We have the head coach that everyone was dying to get and everyone was afraid to lose because of his vast experience and knowledge of offense.

We got rid of the assistants that everyone blamed and kept the ones everyone wanted.

We spent the $200 million everyone wanted on the free agents everyone wanted and spent the #1 pick on defensive player.

We got Cruz back and added Shepard, who everyone said was the next Jerry Rice.

We got rid of the players everyone wanted to get rid of.

And the results have been the same as last year when the wideouts were Parker and Randle, we started a rookie LT and we were starting a defense half of which is no longer in the League.

Considering drken, Greg and their fellow travelers all insisted this was a playoff team last year ruined by a senile old man, the results so far have been underwhelming.

Playoffs boys, playoffs. Anything else will be a failure after Benny Mac was handed so much.


We kept the assistants we wanted? Who was that exactly, Mike Sullivan? Was there a fan club I missed? Or Tom Quinn?
RE: RE: Imagine Flowers  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:06 am : link
In comment 13194339 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13194327 area junc said:


Quote:


in Coughlin/Gilbride's offense, at RT. Beast.
Same with Shepard in the slot. He'd be open all day. Pugh and Richburg would be good in the Seubert/O'Hara roles.

Beckham at Split End, getting all those isos and working deep off play action would be a thing of beauty.

We got rid of the coaching staff when the players needed to be replaced. The system worked and was perfect for the climate we play in.

We finally reloaded the roster but the old ball coach isn't here anymore.



Who's playing LT in this magical Coughlin/Gilbride offense?


Flowers did pretty well at LT for a rookie last year, did he not? But he didn't get along with the offensive line coach so we fired him. Has he improved or regressed last year?
We fired the OL coach because Flowers didn't get along with him?  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 11:11 am : link
Is that right? I haven't seen that anywhere until now.

The only one I saw having anything to say publicly about Flaherty was Richburg, who sadly has regressed pretty badly this year under Solari.
I heard that somewhere, can't remember where so take it with a grain  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:13 am : link
of salt.

The fact remains, we fired a coach and replaced him, and the offensive line has regressed.

Whatever the reason, that's the bottom line.
I always thought that the Gilbride  
Reb8thVA : 10/28/2016 11:16 am : link
offense was the most dynamic, albeit maddening at times, offense that I have ever seen from the Giants until our offensive line woes became obvious. I've always though that McAdoo's offense, was more inconsistent. It put up big numbers at times but would disappear for extended periods of time. Much of that s probably personnel related. Philosophically, I prefer the Gilbride approach, even if I hated that predictable end zone fade. I had reservations about hiring McAdoo based on what I perceived as some of the inconsistencies of the offense and his limited experience. I still have those feelings.
RE: Flaw in this line of thinking  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:17 am : link
In comment 13194366 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
Is that it was a "Coughlin Offense". It was a Gilbride offense and its been gone for 3 years. They ran a MCAdoo offense last year, as well as this year.

The reason for the decline is plain as day: they have no rushing attack. They lost their FB and did not replace him. Their lead back has declined with age.

Until defenses have some reason to respect the running game, it's not going to get better.


It was most certainly Coughlin's offensive design/philosophy.
I have always maintained...  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:22 am : link
the downfall of this team was the deterioration of the offensive line.

Coughlin/Gilbride had to have adequate protection for those 5 and 7 step drops. Once the offensive line could no longer adequately do that, it was dead in the water.

Where the organization failed, is that they were at a crossroads at 2012-2013. You either build the offensive line and keep on trucking doing the same thing you did to win 2 Superbowls, or you blow the whole thing up and start over with a new philosophy.

Instead, they tried a hodge podge of tinkering and what we got is the mess of a roster we have now.

You'll never convince me otherwise.
And good coaches, including a 1st ballot HOF'er...  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:23 am : link
paid the price for it.
RE: RE: RE: Imagine Flowers  
drkenneth : 10/28/2016 11:25 am : link
In comment 13194378 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194339 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13194327 area junc said:


Quote:


in Coughlin/Gilbride's offense, at RT. Beast.
Same with Shepard in the slot. He'd be open all day. Pugh and Richburg would be good in the Seubert/O'Hara roles.

Beckham at Split End, getting all those isos and working deep off play action would be a thing of beauty.

We got rid of the coaching staff when the players needed to be replaced. The system worked and was perfect for the climate we play in.

We finally reloaded the roster but the old ball coach isn't here anymore.



Who's playing LT in this magical Coughlin/Gilbride offense?



Flowers did pretty well at LT for a rookie last year, did he not? But he didn't get along with the offensive line coach so we fired him. Has he improved or regressed last year?


area junc stated that Flowers at RT under Coughlin would be a beast.

He made no mention of who is playing LT. I am asking who is our LT?
RE: Yiou are a brave man  
drkenneth : 10/28/2016 11:26 am : link
In comment 13194369 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Hey, we have the "simple", "qb friendly" offense that everyone wanted.

We have the head coach that everyone was dying to get and everyone was afraid to lose because of his vast experience and knowledge of offense.

We got rid of the assistants that everyone blamed and kept the ones everyone wanted.

We spent the $200 million everyone wanted on the free agents everyone wanted and spent the #1 pick on defensive player.

We got Cruz back and added Shepard, who everyone said was the next Jerry Rice.

We got rid of the players everyone wanted to get rid of.

And the results have been the same as last year when the wideouts were Parker and Randle, we started a rookie LT and we were starting a defense half of which is no longer in the League.

Considering drken, Greg and their fellow travelers all insisted this was a playoff team last year ruined by a senile old man, the results so far have been underwhelming.

Playoffs boys, playoffs. Anything else will be a failure after Benny Mac was handed so much.


Speaking of senile old men...
It wouldn't have been necessary to move him to LT...  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:28 am : link
because one could assume he might be playing as well, or better than he did last year had they left it alone. All hypothetical, of course.
We can go back and forth on the OL until we're blue in the face  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 11:34 am : link
but insisting that somehow Reese left Coughlin out to dry without investing on the OL seems to fly in the face of any kind of logic. It's a lot more likely that Coughlin preferred to stick with the guys he had for too long, and the early deterioration of Snee and Beatty and Baas' injury history blew up on him.

Implying otherwise seems to make it sound like Coughlin had no say in the roster composition, which given how long he lasted and his background just doesn't make any sense.
RE: RE:  
King Quis : 10/28/2016 11:34 am : link
In comment 13194274 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13194263 drkenneth said:


Quote:


With the minor exception that we are winning games. (Little tidbit there).

This team is 4-3 correct?

Coughlin is no longer an NFL coach. Get over it.



Eh - it's not even halfway through the year. In general, the team looks very much the same, sloppy, undisciplined football.

.


The GM doesn't work with the players and yet people seem to be fixated on what the GM does or doesn't do. I'm convinced the talent on the team has nothing to do with how disciplined they play or how well they are coached or if they are put in the right position by the coaches to succeed. Before I would be ready to let go Jerry Reese I would want to see him pick his own Coaching staff. I feel like the Mara's and Tich's of the world have a cap on who the GM can pick and it limits how well he can do as a GM.
Last year's MO was that the offense was going to score a lot of points  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:34 am : link
and the defense was either going to hold or lose it for us in the 4th.

This year's MO is that the defense will keep us in it, and we don't know what the offense will do, if anything.

Through seven games last year, the offense broke 20 points 6 times.

Through seven games this year, the offense broke 20 points only 3 times. That's not good enough, or a sustainable model, to win games in today's NFL.

RE: RE:  
montanagiant : 10/28/2016 11:36 am : link
In comment 13194282 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194263 drkenneth said:


Quote:


With the minor exception that we are winning games. (Little tidbit there).

This team is 4-3 correct?

Coughlin is no longer an NFL coach. Get over it.



The 2015 team was 4-3 also, at this point last year.

Facts Britt, you're hitting him with facts...He will be unable to comprehend
RE: We can go back and forth on the OL until we're blue in the face  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:36 am : link
In comment 13194424 jcn56 said:
Quote:
but insisting that somehow Reese left Coughlin out to dry without investing on the OL seems to fly in the face of any kind of logic. It's a lot more likely that Coughlin preferred to stick with the guys he had for too long, and the early deterioration of Snee and Beatty and Baas' injury history blew up on him.

Implying otherwise seems to make it sound like Coughlin had no say in the roster composition, which given how long he lasted and his background just doesn't make any sense.


Why is that "more likely"? Because it fits your narrative?
It's no more likely than Coughlin having zero say, actually...  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:39 am : link
because the truth is we don't know.

What we do know, is that Reese is the GM, and the GM is in charge of picking the players, and Coughlin was the HC, and in charge of coaching the players he is given.

Now, I know and you know it's not as black and white as that, but to say anything is "more likely" is just speculating to fit your argument, something I've tried to avoid.
RE: RE: We can go back and forth on the OL until we're blue in the face  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 11:42 am : link
In comment 13194429 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194424 jcn56 said:


Quote:


but insisting that somehow Reese left Coughlin out to dry without investing on the OL seems to fly in the face of any kind of logic. It's a lot more likely that Coughlin preferred to stick with the guys he had for too long, and the early deterioration of Snee and Beatty and Baas' injury history blew up on him.

Implying otherwise seems to make it sound like Coughlin had no say in the roster composition, which given how long he lasted and his background just doesn't make any sense.



Why is that "more likely"? Because it fits your narrative?


Because the team that retained that two-time SB winning coach for 12 years was not going to give him zero say in personnel. Shit, the team that just retained a first time HC under 40 said they give him a say, why would we believe that wasn't the case for a guy like Coughlin?

Plus, we saw examples of that behavior, like when Diehl was injured and he was returned to the lineup (only to underperform relative to his replacement) because the coaching staff felt that you don't lose your job to injury.

We don't know for sure either way, but of the two, does it really seem more likely to you that TC was shut out in his concerns that the OL needed to be rebuilt?
Where is Sean Locklear, these days?  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:44 am : link
?
RE: Comparing  
montanagiant : 10/28/2016 11:46 am : link
In comment 13194321 dorgan said:
Quote:
the two offenses is like comparing black and white. One is a high risk, high reward offense. One is low risk, low reward.

The blend that they had last year was pretty good. We took enough shots to keep people from flooding the underneath zones with defenders. We need to address that in some way. I'm not convinced it's as easy as saying "we need a TE". That will help, but unless you start forcing the issue with well timed deeper routes, you're still stymied.

It's like it's a training wheels Offense this year. The only theory that gives hope is that he is planning on surprising everyone for a run. When I got worried was in the Wash game where he got completely out-coached in the 2nd half.

I agree with the idea that it might have been time for TC to move on, and one of the things I was hoping we would get rid off is the sturboness rend TC had to adhering to something that does not work. Yet it's even worse this year with it. We are 4-3, but very easily we could have been 2-5 or even 1-6 if not for some fortunate breaks. I understand you are what your record is, but there are way too many games where luck was the deciding factor.
So what do you think the story is Britt?  
drkenneth : 10/28/2016 11:46 am : link
Believe it or not, I like Tom Coughlin, and I think he is a HOF coach.

But he's severely overrated here. His teams were anything but, consistent, smart & tough, despite the fairy tale you've created around him.

Parcells was a better HC.

Nobody hates Coughlin, it's the constant ball licking, and fallacy that Tom was some sort of victim who had zero say in personnel, zero responsibility for all the no-shows, sloppy play, and inconsistency. He couldn't beat the Eagles if his life depended on it.

This idea that Coughlin was somehow handcuffed is fucking ridiculous.

McAdoo has coach for 7 fucking games. Can we give it some more time please before you start calling for St. Coughlin?

I understand TC is a hero of yours, and that's great. But he is no longer a HC in the NFL.
Why does it always have to degrade into name calling and insults?  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:48 am : link
Are you able to discuss this constructively or not?
RE: Why does it always have to degrade into name calling and insults?  
drkenneth : 10/28/2016 11:58 am : link
In comment 13194452 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Are you able to discuss this constructively or not?


I'm not the one with the bias here. You clearly feel that Coughlin was somehow wronged, and still should be the coach.

Tom Coughlin is no longer a coach in the NFL.

You're the one with "Tom Coughlin is the greatest ever" pom pom.

What happened last year is irrelevant. You know what is? The Eagles next weekend.

Do you want to discuss your 9th grade girlfriend while were at it?
RE: RE: Why does it always have to degrade into name calling and insults?  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:59 am : link
In comment 13194465 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13194452 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Are you able to discuss this constructively or not?



I'm not the one with the bias here. You clearly feel that Coughlin was somehow wronged, and still should be the coach.

Tom Coughlin is no longer a coach in the NFL.

You're the one with "Tom Coughlin is the greatest ever" pom pom.

What happened last year is irrelevant. You know what is? The Eagles next weekend.

Do you want to discuss your 9th grade girlfriend while were at it?


Looks like the answer to my previous question is "no".
RE: Where is Sean Locklear, these days?  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13194442 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
?


The same place that Diehl and Snee are - does that matter? At the time, he was playing better, and had been all season.
RE: RE: Where is Sean Locklear, these days?  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 12:08 pm : link
In comment 13194484 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13194442 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


?



The same place that Diehl and Snee are - does that matter? At the time, he was playing better, and had been all season.


IF, and it's a big IF, that's what happened... I can't fault the guy for replacing one shit performance with another shit based performance based on liking the smell of one's own shit better than the smell of somebody else's, which is all we've had from our offensive line... shit... since then.
RE: RE: RE: Where is Sean Locklear, these days?  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 12:13 pm : link
In comment 13194489 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194484 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13194442 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


?



The same place that Diehl and Snee are - does that matter? At the time, he was playing better, and had been all season.



IF, and it's a big IF, that's what happened... I can't fault the guy for replacing one shit performance with another shit based performance based on liking the smell of one's own shit better than the smell of somebody else's, which is all we've had from our offensive line... shit... since then.


There's no *if* - it went so far as the media asking why Locklear was coming out, and TC said it.

Locklear had been playing well. Diehl had not. Diehl had been injured, and from what it looked like coming back, remained injured.

Tough SOB Diehl, but not what the team needed.

TC wasn't sitting there at the combines with his stopwatch for nothing. He had personnel input - whether it was as much as Reese or not, he was complicit in the whole thing. He deserved blame for the roster, as did Reese. Reese retains more responsibility by virtue of the fact that he's the GM, but he wasn't alone. That much has been said by TC, by Reese, by Mara - but seems to get overlooked when we talk about the team's performance.
But I'm allowing myself to get sucked into an argument irrelevant...  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 12:14 pm : link
to the topic....

2013 New York Giants Points For: 28th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 13th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 6th in the NFL

Noticing a trend?

2016 New York Giants Points For: 25th in the NFL through 7 games.
So what do you want to hear Britt?  
drkenneth : 10/28/2016 12:17 pm : link
Honestly. We get it. You are a huge Tom Coughlin fan and feel he was scapegoated.

McAdoo isn't getting fired this year. Coughlin isn't running out of the tunnel any time soon.

Only thing we can do is sit back and see how the next 9 games go.

If they go 4-5, that would be an improvement over 2015.
RE: But I'm allowing myself to get sucked into an argument irrelevant...  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 12:18 pm : link
In comment 13194503 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
to the topic....

2013 New York Giants Points For: 28th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 13th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 6th in the NFL

Noticing a trend?

2016 New York Giants Points For: 25th in the NFL through 7 games.


Yup - when McAdoo was named OC, they went from 28th, then 13th, then 6th in points. When he moved to HC, they've dropped considerably.

So now the question becomes - what has changed? How much of it is because TC is gone, and how much of it is because McAdoo is the HC and not just the OC.

It isn't simply TC's removal, because that wasn't the only change. And the fact that they made a marked improvement in points (and other offensive categories) means that McAdoo's introduction was a net positive.
RE: RE: But I'm allowing myself to get sucked into an argument irrelevant...  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 12:19 pm : link
In comment 13194507 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13194503 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


to the topic....

2013 New York Giants Points For: 28th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 13th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 6th in the NFL

Noticing a trend?

2016 New York Giants Points For: 25th in the NFL through 7 games.



Yup - when McAdoo was named OC, they went from 28th, then 13th, then 6th in points. When he moved to HC, they've dropped considerably.

So now the question becomes - what has changed? How much of it is because TC is gone, and how much of it is because McAdoo is the HC and not just the OC.

It isn't simply TC's removal, because that wasn't the only change. And the fact that they made a marked improvement in points (and other offensive categories) means that McAdoo's introduction was a net positive.


And that's exactly what my op was about. So we've come full circle.
Actually, it wasn't - here's what you had in there:  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 12:21 pm : link
Quote:
Might eventually have to chalk this one up in the "grass isn't always greener" category. I know that won't be popular, and will bring out the fangs of the Fire Coughlin crowd, but if you're being honest with yourself, what else can you attribute it to?


What else can you attribute it to? Personnel changes. The fact that McAdoo isn't just the OC but the HC as well. Schedule differences.

There is a chance that Coughlin's oversight made a much better offense than McAdoo alone, but that's just one of many things that might be a factor here.
RE: So what do you think the story is Britt?  
Johnny5 : 10/28/2016 12:21 pm : link
In comment 13194449 drkenneth said:
Quote:
Believe it or not, I like Tom Coughlin, and I think he is a HOF coach.

But he's severely overrated here. His teams were anything but, consistent, smart & tough, despite the fairy tale you've created around him.

Parcells was a better HC.

Nobody hates Coughlin, it's the constant ball licking, and fallacy that Tom was some sort of victim who had zero say in personnel, zero responsibility for all the no-shows, sloppy play, and inconsistency. He couldn't beat the Eagles if his life depended on it.

This idea that Coughlin was somehow handcuffed is fucking ridiculous.

McAdoo has coach for 7 fucking games. Can we give it some more time please before you start calling for St. Coughlin?

I understand TC is a hero of yours, and that's great. But he is no longer a HC in the NFL.

Agree with some of what you said here. But to say Coughlin wasn't handcuffed last year after we fire him and spend 200 Million on the defense... I'll disagree with that. Look, Coughlin had his warts, but last year he had a REALLY shitty team (Personnel wise) in pretty much every game. I feel like they should have given him a chance with this roster.
RE: Actually, it wasn't - here's what you had in there:  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13194512 jcn56 said:
Quote:


Quote:


Might eventually have to chalk this one up in the "grass isn't always greener" category. I know that won't be popular, and will bring out the fangs of the Fire Coughlin crowd, but if you're being honest with yourself, what else can you attribute it to?




What else can you attribute it to? Personnel changes. The fact that McAdoo isn't just the OC but the HC as well. Schedule differences.

There is a chance that Coughlin's oversight made a much better offense than McAdoo alone, but that's just one of many things that might be a factor here.


That's cherry picking a single line out of my whole op that I was getting out of the way because I knew people would say I was implying it.

I have three questions for you:

Does, or doesn't, the offense look completely unrecognizable to the the previous two years?

Do you feel we have better or worse players on offense this year, over last year?

What is the main change in coaching the offense from this year to last year?
There is one more variable that needs to be added to this discussion  
T in NJ : 10/28/2016 1:03 pm : link
Eli has the ability to change the play at the line depending on what the defense is showing him. The question is whether he has been unnecessarily bailing out of the called play, or has his options have been limited. Playing out of the same alignment could be part of it, though I wonder about that too. Why would McAdoo do that? Protecting an OLine learning a new system? Playing poker with the rest of the NFL and opening things up in the second half of the season?
RE: RE: Actually, it wasn't - here's what you had in there:  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 1:05 pm : link
In comment 13194517 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194512 jcn56 said:


Quote:




Quote:


Might eventually have to chalk this one up in the "grass isn't always greener" category. I know that won't be popular, and will bring out the fangs of the Fire Coughlin crowd, but if you're being honest with yourself, what else can you attribute it to?




What else can you attribute it to? Personnel changes. The fact that McAdoo isn't just the OC but the HC as well. Schedule differences.

There is a chance that Coughlin's oversight made a much better offense than McAdoo alone, but that's just one of many things that might be a factor here.



That's cherry picking a single line out of my whole op that I was getting out of the way because I knew people would say I was implying it.

I have three questions for you:

Does, or doesn't, the offense look completely unrecognizable to the the previous two years?

Do you feel we have better or worse players on offense this year, over last year?

What is the main change in coaching the offense from this year to last year?


In order:

- Unrecognizable? No - definitely simplified. We're running a subset of what we ran last year, for whatever reason.

- Better, but not by a whole lot. We have Cruz back, and while he's not vintage Cruz, he's an improvement over what we had. Shepard will be a big part of this team going forward, but he's a rookie. Traditionally, rookie WRs haven't exactly lit the world on fire (his teammate #13 notwithstanding).

- Main change in offense is McAdoo going from OC to HC/OC. He's taken on more responsibility. Obviously, TC being gone factors here as well - but how much is anyone's guess. McAdoo's O was different from TC's. If anything, if it's TC's departure that's impacting them, it's losing whatever guidance TC was imparting on BM.
That's a fair answer,  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 1:13 pm : link
but I'll have to disagree with #1.

To me, this year's offense to last year's is unrecognizable. If last year's offense looked like this year's offense, not a single person on this board would have advocated for McAdoo to be the head coach. No way.
And if Coughlin was going to be let go, I WANTED McAdoo.  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 1:25 pm : link
But now I'm feeling like it was false advertising.
Keeping him on with McAdoo  
area junc : 10/28/2016 1:28 pm : link
would've made little difference. Gilbride was fine, as soon as they were done with Gilbride they had to let Tom go too, or use an OC that would keep the same offense.

Making him "merge" his offense in any way with a West Coast Offense - the exact opposite scheme he ran his entire coaching life - was stupid and insulting imo.

There is no reason both TC + KG couldn't still be here, they just panicked and didn't rebuild the roster correctly. mgmt mistake, coaches paid for it. KG has said as much post retirement - they gave him nothing despite him warning mgmt of a bad situation
RE: Keeping him on with McAdoo  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 1:29 pm : link
In comment 13194584 area junc said:
Quote:
There is no reason both TC + KG couldn't still be here, they just panicked and didn't rebuild the roster correctly. mgmt mistake, coaches paid for it. KG has said as much post retirement - they gave him nothing despite him warning mgmt of a bad situation


I agree with this part wholeheartedly.
This was a predictable thread  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 1:30 pm : link
Britt, I know you're a passionate fan, but your bias for Coughlin really clouds your judgement on these topics and any offshoots of them. Remember this wonderful thread?


Quote:
It's 1000% a talent problem.
Britt in VA : 12/20/2015 2:20 pm
Beckham drops a TD.

DRC Drops another Pick 6.

Jennings fumbles away a promising drive.

If they fire Coughlin, it's a BIG FUCKING MISTAKE.


Hell, you didn't even think reigning in Beckham was any bit of Coughlin's responsibility.

Quote:
RE: TC really has control of Beckham today Britt
Britt in VA : 12/20/2015 3:26 pm : link
In comment 12698428 Sean said:
Quote:
.


HA! That's on TC??????


Now, I'm not trying to pick on you, but it's hard to have a legit discussion on anything TC related with you, without it turning into you going out of your way to white knight on his behalf. McAdoo is struggling, and the offense isn't where we want it to be, but this is a 1st year HC. There are going to be ups and downs. This part isn't surprising, we just have to hope he adapts. It was TC's time to go, the real argument is what other candidates we should have interviewed for the job, not comparing a veteran coach past his time to a rookie HC.
Link - ( New Window )
Two things...  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 1:33 pm : link
that's essentially a game thread.

Secondly, I stand by my statement on not reeling in Beckham being on Coughlin. Was it on McAdoo when Beckham was so out of control at the start of this year? No.

Coughlin had Beckham reeled in for nearly two years. One out of control game does not go on Coughlin, no more than this year's Beckham shitshow goes on McAdoo.

And yeah, talent is till a problem.
If I recall correctly,  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 1:34 pm : link
you pulled this thread out a couple of months ago, I was not part of it, and got blasted down to a point that the thread got deleted. So a lot of people don't share your view of that thread, either.
Read the original thread  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 1:37 pm : link
a lot of people disagreed with you. The other thread got deleted because one person chimed in and dragged the thread towards personal insults.
I just did....  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 1:39 pm : link
Stand by most of it.

I didn't articulate my point well as well as I could have in the heat of the moment, but it's still a talent problem.

A lot of people agreed then, and still do.
But let's keep it the topic at hand.  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 1:40 pm : link
Explain to me how this team has improved on offense by changing coaches.
Had Coughlin reeled Beckham in the Carolina game  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 1:41 pm : link
he wouldn't have as big of a target on his back. After that game, perception changed on Odell, and refs were looking for reasons to throw flags at him. Everything changed from that moment forward.

To answer your question, YES, it is McAdoo's responsibility to reel OBJ in, just like it was Coughlin's to sit OBJ down and let him cool off, rather than let things escalate on the field. My logic on that topic is consistent for both coaches, so this isn't me picking on Coughlin because I decided to be mean.

One thing Coughlin did better was speak to the media about him in a way that he didn't give them a story to run with. McAdoo slipped up and said it was a distraction, and OBJ's antics became a much bigger story than it should have been.

Britt, to the topic on hand  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 1:44 pm : link
I think many of us expected the same offense as last year, but with added wrinkles. Continued lack of a reliable running game puts us in difficult situations in terms of down and distance. The real question should be, if we didn't hire McAdoo, were any of the other candidates better fits for the job? We didn't fire the wrong guy, but it is a legit question whether or not we hired the right guy for the job.
Look Beckham losing control...  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 1:57 pm : link
or Dave Diehl replacing Locklear have little to no bearing on the topic at hand, and instead seem/feel like deflections.

The bottom line is that the offense if infinitely worse, I'd argue unrecognizable, from what we've seen the previous two years.

It's a valid argument to say that Tom Coughlin and his take shots down the filed philosophy is missing from the current incarnation.

If you've got an alternate explanation, let's discuss it.
...  
est1986 : 10/28/2016 1:59 pm : link
Year 2 with the same OLine and they are equally as bad as last year. That unit should have improved after all the talk we heard about OLine needing to "gel". Pugh is a rock, Flowers has improved, Richburg has regressed, Jerry and Newhouse are what they are. We subtract Rueben Randle and add Cruz and Sheppard and that unit should be improved from last season but it has not appeared that way thus far this season, I don't really fault any of our WR's but outside of OBJ vs Baltimore where are the big plays? Tight End's are still Tye and Donnell, after a year of experience they should have shown improvement but they seem to be regressing. Eli carried this team last season but this season he seems inconsistent and less confident and not capable of carrying them but hopefully he doesn't have to. The defense is playing much better all around but we still can't get sacks and unlike last year's defense we haven't seen the takeaways on a weekly basis. I love me some TC and wish he was still apart of the NYG organization in some form. With that said its hard to throw all the blame on McAdoo with this being his first year as a HC but our entire coaching staff across the board has been disappointing.
Odell Beckham under Tom Coughlin...  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:00 pm : link
had the best rookie career beginning of any wide receiver in history.

Where is the offense that gets that guy involved?
RE: Look Beckham losing control...  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 2:06 pm : link
In comment 13194635 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
or Dave Diehl replacing Locklear have little to no bearing on the topic at hand, and instead seem/feel like deflections.

The bottom line is that the offense if infinitely worse, I'd argue unrecognizable, from what we've seen the previous two years.

It's a valid argument to say that Tom Coughlin and his take shots down the filed philosophy is missing from the current incarnation.

If you've got an alternate explanation, let's discuss it.


YOu talk about deflections, it seems like that's what you do whenever it comes to TC and what he's responsible for.

I disagree that it's the take shots down the field philosophy that's missing. We have been taking shots down field, we've been missing them when opportunities become available, and teams are playing us with 2 safeties deep. Eli has overthrown his WR's deep on a few occasions. This offense could use more diversity in formations, and desperately needs a running game. Some of the issues we have now are the same issues we have had with Coughlin. Again, you seem to brush aside the fact that this is a rookie HC. He might be in over his head. Maybe he's building the offense from ground up, and gradually installing new facets to it. We'll see what happens after the bye. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we see some new wrinkles in the offense.
I did not bring up Coughlin not being able to control Beckham,  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:09 pm : link
nor did I bring up Coughlin not replacing starters on the line with other, nor did I bring up what role Coughlin played in the selection of players.

I've pretty much stuck to the difference in the offense when Coughlin was here, until now. Unless I was responding to another poster's point about one of the above things I mentioned.

So I have not tried to deflect anything on this thread.
RE: Odell Beckham under Tom Coughlin...  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 2:09 pm : link
In comment 13194642 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
had the best rookie career beginning of any wide receiver in history.

Where is the offense that gets that guy involved?


OBJ tied for 4th in targets. He's actually averaging more ypc than he ever has. He's on a similar pace to his other two years across the board (with the exception of TD's). Eli has overthrown him, or didn't look his way when he was WIDE open, and that's why his TD's are off pace right now.
RE: Odell Beckham under Tom Coughlin...  
est1986 : 10/28/2016 2:10 pm : link
In comment 13194642 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
had the best rookie career beginning of any wide receiver in history.

Where is the offense that gets that guy involved?


Wasn't that McAdoo's offense basically? Wasn't that before anyone, including TC, knew Beckham was as good as he is? OBJ is still on pace for those same numbers . . .
Look, I can't discuss this with you.  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:11 pm : link
If we continue this is going to devolve like pretty much every other thread that you come on and we get into this, does.

So let's just agree to disagree on this one. This has been a fairly civil discussion up to this point.
RE: RE: Odell Beckham under Tom Coughlin...  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:11 pm : link
In comment 13194655 est1986 said:
Quote:
In comment 13194642 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


had the best rookie career beginning of any wide receiver in history.

Where is the offense that gets that guy involved?



Wasn't that McAdoo's offense basically? Wasn't that before anyone, including TC, knew Beckham was as good as he is? OBJ is still on pace for those same numbers . . .


Was it? That's the question I asked in the OP. And if it was, where is that offense, now?
I'll say this..  
est1986 : 10/28/2016 2:13 pm : link
We definitely are not taking the same amount of "shots" this year.. whether that is McAdoo's fault, Eli's fault, or the O-line's fault is up for debate. Eli has elevated his teammates play since he stepped in but he hasn't seemed to have that same "magic" this year.
RE: RE: RE: Odell Beckham under Tom Coughlin...  
est1986 : 10/28/2016 2:17 pm : link
In comment 13194661 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194655 est1986 said:


Quote:


In comment 13194642 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


had the best rookie career beginning of any wide receiver in history.

Where is the offense that gets that guy involved?



Wasn't that McAdoo's offense basically? Wasn't that before anyone, including TC, knew Beckham was as good as he is? OBJ is still on pace for those same numbers . . .



Was it? That's the question I asked in the OP. And if it was, where is that offense, now?


McAdoo was hired as the new OC and he got a shiny new toy in the first round in Odell. Ask Eli why he isn't throwing the ball down the field, it would be hard for me to believe McAdoo is telling Eli keep it under 15 yards.
Well....  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:18 pm : link
watch this and then let's continue the discussion:

96% - ( New Window )
RE: I'll say this..  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 2:18 pm : link
In comment 13194668 est1986 said:
Quote:
We definitely are not taking the same amount of "shots" this year.. whether that is McAdoo's fault, Eli's fault, or the O-line's fault is up for debate. Eli has elevated his teammates play since he stepped in but he hasn't seemed to have that same "magic" this year.


Eli is #11 in passing plays over 20 yards, and #6 in passing plays over 40 yards. I think this is a case of perception not quite meeting reality.
RE: Well....  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 2:21 pm : link
In comment 13194675 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
watch this and then let's continue the discussion: 96% - ( New Window )


I've watched the video. It's concerning, and I think McAdoo might be doing this to make up for a lack of personnel, and that he's building this offense from the ground up. Again, you seem to be brushing past my points that speaks on the topics, and focus on defending yourself with my returning your deflection accusation.
I don't even know what you just said.  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:21 pm : link
Sounded like a tongue twister.
RE: RE: I'll say this..  
est1986 : 10/28/2016 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13194676 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194668 est1986 said:


Quote:


We definitely are not taking the same amount of "shots" this year.. whether that is McAdoo's fault, Eli's fault, or the O-line's fault is up for debate. Eli has elevated his teammates play since he stepped in but he hasn't seemed to have that same "magic" this year.



Eli is #11 in passing plays over 20 yards, and #6 in passing plays over 40 yards. I think this is a case of perception not quite meeting reality.


I don't understand those numbers..?
RE: Look, I can't discuss this with you.  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13194659 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
If we continue this is going to devolve like pretty much every other thread that you come on and we get into this, does.

So let's just agree to disagree on this one. This has been a fairly civil discussion up to this point.


So this thread devolves if someone disagrees with your opinion? Seems like any point I make to show you a different perspective ends up with you dismissing it completely, and continuing on in your bubble where Coughlin was this perfect coach during his last few seasons here.
RE: RE: Look, I can't discuss this with you.  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:26 pm : link
In comment 13194691 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194659 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


If we continue this is going to devolve like pretty much every other thread that you come on and we get into this, does.

So let's just agree to disagree on this one. This has been a fairly civil discussion up to this point.



So this thread devolves if someone disagrees with your opinion? Seems like any point I make to show you a different perspective ends up with you dismissing it completely, and continuing on in your bubble where Coughlin was this perfect coach during his last few seasons here.


Not not someone, just you. Respectfully, of course. You are a difficult person to converse with on this board.
It's because you don't like your beliefs to be challenged  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 2:27 pm : link
and don't handle it well when faced with facts that are difficult to swallow.
It's more because you are a thread killer.  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:29 pm : link
You are doing it right now.

Coming in, off topic, deflecting, using other people words... All that stuff.

Let's just save ourselves the trouble this time.
So you feign wanting a legitimate discussion  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 2:33 pm : link
when we all know this thread was basically a TC glorification post, and you dismiss any notion that flies against what you think, and accuse me of deflecting. I've brought up salient points, and you say crap like "I don't even know what you just said". Enjoy your safespace.
R.I.P. Thread.  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:33 pm : link
.
I just had a well thought out opinion  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/28/2016 2:39 pm : link
But I'm not participating in this circle jerk.
RE: I just had a well thought out opinion  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:40 pm : link
In comment 13194721 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
Quote:
But I'm not participating in this circle jerk.


Yup, tanked. Sorry about that.
Well, his thread should have been dead a long time ago  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 2:41 pm : link
Dr Kenneth and JCN has pointed out several fallacies in your argument. You're stubborn as a mule when it comes to TC, you've shown your ass on the topic repeated times.
Well,  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/28/2016 2:44 pm : link
people wanted Reese to hire his own coach. Be careful what you ask for..

I'm hoping for the best with McAdoo. I actually like him and think he can be a good coach in this league. Not sure if he'll ever take the next step to being a 'great' coach, though. Guess we'll see..
Article on bleacher report that is pretty imformative  
est1986 : 10/28/2016 2:45 pm : link
quote from the article

"Eli Manning currently ranks 13th in the NFL with a mark of 7.35 yards per pass attempt. This number will continue to take a dive until that O-Line can effectively run block against a light box and force defenses to adjust accordingly."


The Reason Why NYG Offense doesn't attack downfield - ( New Window )
RE: Article on bleacher report that is pretty imformative  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13194731 est1986 said:
Quote:
quote from the article

"Eli Manning currently ranks 13th in the NFL with a mark of 7.35 yards per pass attempt. This number will continue to take a dive until that O-Line can effectively run block against a light box and force defenses to adjust accordingly."
The Reason Why NYG Offense doesn't attack downfield - ( New Window )


Did you watch that thing I posted for you above?

It's not like the pass protection has changed that much from last year to this year.
The Fantasy generation just can't figure out  
Giants2012 : 10/28/2016 2:47 pm : link
why skill positions don't accumulate fantasy points.

It's the line stupid.
RE: The Fantasy generation just can't figure out  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:48 pm : link
In comment 13194733 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
why skill positions don't accumulate fantasy points.

It's the line stupid.


I agree, it's the line and always has been, going back to Gilbride.

What I can't comprehend is why the offense looks so different this year, with the same line as last year.
RE: RE: Article on bleacher report that is pretty imformative  
est1986 : 10/28/2016 2:51 pm : link
In comment 13194732 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194731 est1986 said:


Quote:


quote from the article

"Eli Manning currently ranks 13th in the NFL with a mark of 7.35 yards per pass attempt. This number will continue to take a dive until that O-Line can effectively run block against a light box and force defenses to adjust accordingly."
The Reason Why NYG Offense doesn't attack downfield - ( New Window )



Did you watch that thing I posted for you above?

It's not like the pass protection has changed that much from last year to this year.


No I didn't because im at work and don't have headphones but I made a note to myself to check it out at home.
Coughlin's offense was pretty low to medium risk / high reward  
widmerseyebrow : 10/28/2016 2:53 pm : link
when it had decent to good personnel.

Everyone got so caught up in the "simplification" hoopla with Gilbride because Reuben Randal and Jerrell Jernigan weren't performing. Just think about that for a second.
It basically diagrams that the Giants run the most basic offense...  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 2:54 pm : link
in the NFL right now, running the same personnel groupings and formation 96% (!) of the time. The next closest in the entire league that does that is the Dolphins who run the same personnel groups 76% of the time.

We are running some high school level basic offense right now. Watch it, you'll be stunned.
RE: RE: The Fantasy generation just can't figure out  
est1986 : 10/28/2016 2:55 pm : link
In comment 13194737 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194733 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


why skill positions don't accumulate fantasy points.

It's the line stupid.



I agree, it's the line and always has been, going back to Gilbride.

What I can't comprehend is why the offense looks so different this year, with the same line as last year.


It should be better this year but IDK I can't explain it.
RE: RE: The Fantasy generation just can't figure out  
David in LA : 10/28/2016 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13194737 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194733 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


why skill positions don't accumulate fantasy points.

It's the line stupid.



I agree, it's the line and always has been, going back to Gilbride.

What I can't comprehend is why the offense looks so different this year, with the same line as last year.


New OL coach. Some people will look like they're taking a step back while learning new technique. The OL play has been up and down, but IMO the larger issue is that we don't have talent in the backfield to get the safeties to creep up.

Also the line being an issue since Gilbride, we failed to move on from declining players, who have been stalwarts for a long time. We know Coughlin is loyal to a fault, especially when it comes to his staff, it's not a stretch to think he went to bat to keep Snee, Diehl, and O'Hara on the field longer than they should have. IMO the lack of development of prospects has to do with being unable to adapt to the new CBA, especially for such an old school coach. We're all creatures of habit.
The OLine has been an issue for a few years at this point.  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/28/2016 3:00 pm : link
The front office has NOT done a good job in finding new talent. Just look at Flowers, and in addition, where he is playing. Problem.
Wow I never saw that ''It's 1000% a talent problem'' thread  
Overseer : 10/28/2016 3:03 pm : link
What a trainwreck.

Britt's an emotional poster. For said types, big picture can be challenging. Preferable to vent, complete with ALL CAPS, in game thread fashion (not even on the game thread) midway through a loss to a 13-0 juggernaut team on a roll.

Onto this season: ignoring the fact that the Giants are 4-3, this bizarre need to long for Coughlin (who, recall, no other team with a vacancy wanted) would do well to keep in mind his own shitty first season. Parcells' too. Does that mean Ben M is the long-term answer? No. But he will almost certainly be the HC for at least several years and should be afforded some time to make the team his own. I wonder if next season might see a new OC calling plays so McAdoo can concentrate on the overall game.

The next game will be mildly illustrative (although should be kept in context). Coughlin was 9-17 vs Philadelphia, including two playoff losses and 2 humiliating losses in key games each of the past 2 seasons. It would be nice to reverse the trend.

RE: RE: The Fantasy generation just can't figure out  
Johnny5 : 10/28/2016 3:21 pm : link
In comment 13194737 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13194733 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


why skill positions don't accumulate fantasy points.

It's the line stupid.



I agree, it's the line and always has been, going back to Gilbride.

What I can't comprehend is why the offense looks so different this year, with the same line as last year.

From a simplistic level... really it points to coaching.

The OL is the same personnel. RBs are for the most part the same. TEs basically the same, although they became a problem (well more of a problem) after Pope left 2 years ago. Whitlock is gone.

TC gone
Flaherty gone replaced by Solari
Pope Gone (2 years now) replaced by Gilbride jr.
MacAdoo no longer solely focused on offense
Mike Sullivan OC

Regardless... I really hope these guys are able to pull it together. I'm a TC guy for sure, but it doesn't mean I don't want the new regime to succeed. Pretty sure we all do.
RE: RE: RE: The Fantasy generation just can't figure out  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 3:21 pm : link
In comment 13194779 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 13194737 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13194733 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


why skill positions don't accumulate fantasy points.

It's the line stupid.



I agree, it's the line and always has been, going back to Gilbride.

What I can't comprehend is why the offense looks so different this year, with the same line as last year.


From a simplistic level... really it points to coaching.

The OL is the same personnel. RBs are for the most part the same. TEs basically the same, although they became a problem (well more of a problem) after Pope left 2 years ago. Whitlock is gone.

TC gone
Flaherty gone replaced by Solari
Pope Gone (2 years now) replaced by Gilbride jr.
MacAdoo no longer solely focused on offense
Mike Sullivan OC

Regardless... I really hope these guys are able to pull it together. I'm a TC guy for sure, but it doesn't mean I don't want the new regime to succeed. Pretty sure we all do.


We definitely do.
RE: But I'm allowing myself to get sucked into an argument irrelevant...  
compton : 10/28/2016 3:40 pm : link
In comment 13194503 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
to the topic....

2013 New York Giants Points For: 28th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 13th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 6th in the NFL

Noticing a trend?

2016 New York Giants Points For: 25th in the NFL through 7 games.



Did you noticed the improvement happened when McAdoo took over as the OC.
RE: RE: But I'm allowing myself to get sucked into an argument irrelevant...  
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 3:42 pm : link
In comment 13194802 compton said:
Quote:
In comment 13194503 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


to the topic....

2013 New York Giants Points For: 28th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 13th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 6th in the NFL

Noticing a trend?

2016 New York Giants Points For: 25th in the NFL through 7 games.




Did you noticed the improvement happened when McAdoo took over as the OC.


Yes, I thought I did, until this year. If that was solely McAdoo's offense, then where is that offense this year? Hence the thread. Welcome to 9:58 AM.
RE: Wow I never saw that ''It's 1000% a talent problem'' thread  
shelovesnycsports : 10/28/2016 4:35 pm : link
In comment 13194755 Overseer said:
Quote:
What a trainwreck.

Britt's an emotional poster. For said types, big picture can be challenging. Preferable to vent, complete with ALL CAPS, in game thread fashion (not even on the game thread) midway through a loss to a 13-0 juggernaut team on a roll.

Onto this season: ignoring the fact that the Giants are 4-3, this bizarre need to long for Coughlin (who, recall, no other team with a vacancy wanted) would do well to keep in mind his own shitty first season. Parcells' too. Does that mean Ben M is the long-term answer? No. But he will almost certainly be the HC for at least several years and should be afforded some time to make the team his own. I wonder if next season might see a new OC calling plays so McAdoo can concentrate on the overall game.

The next game will be mildly illustrative (although should be kept in context). Coughlin was 9-17 vs Philadelphia, including two playoff losses and 2 humiliating losses in key games each of the past 2 seasons. It would be nice to reverse the trend.

BRAVO Great Post.
I really didn't think this was going to be so hard to explain.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/28/2016 5:24 pm : link
Why are some people still not seeing the offensive line as the issue?

We're going off on ridiculous tangents like shouting for 4WR sets and different formations to 'confuse' the defense, like that has ever been a thing.

It doesn't matter how many WRs you put on the field, or where you put them if the QB doesn't believe in the line in front of him.
Actually there is really one difference between the offenses  
The Tempest : 10/28/2016 7:33 pm : link
Tom Coughlin offense had a power running game and the Ben McAdoo offense does not.
RE: Actually there is really one difference between the offenses  
drkenneth : 10/28/2016 9:31 pm : link
In comment 13195005 The Tempest said:
Quote:
Tom Coughlin offense had a power running game and the Ben McAdoo offense does not.


Tom Coughlin offense WANTED a power running game..who doesn't?

Don't you think every coach would love a power running game with a deep passing game?

We haven't been able to run the ball in years. The running game didn't disappear when Coughlin left.

Tom Coughlin didn't invent the forward pass.
RE: Well....  
est1986 : 10/28/2016 11:08 pm : link
In comment 13194675 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
watch this and then let's continue the discussion: 96% - ( New Window )


Wonder what McAdoo would say to that. To be fair not a single word/mention of the Giants O-line in the entire video. From what I've seen so far, you can't argue that the O-line play 'maybe' the cause for such quick routes being run/called. I'm not the only one waiting for this offense to open up. No running attack is really killing us too, not to mention pitiful turnovers.
RE: RE: Actually there is really one difference between the offenses  
The Tempest : 10/29/2016 11:26 am : link
In comment 13195113 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13195005 The Tempest said:


Quote:


Tom Coughlin offense had a power running game and the Ben McAdoo offense does not.



Tom Coughlin offense WANTED a power running game..who doesn't?

Don't you think every coach would love a power running game with a deep passing game?

We haven't been able to run the ball in years. The running game didn't disappear when Coughlin left.

Tom Coughlin didn't invent the forward pass.


You are confusing a power running game with the results of the running game. There is no fullback on the roster or a blocking TE or big short yardage back. We had two of those things last year and none of them this year.
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