with 2 main FA's being JPP and Hankins. Realistically, I think you can get JPP's cap hit to be around $14M in year 1.
The Giants could give him the 5 year $85M deal he wants and still have a cap hit in year one that is easily under $10M.
If I'm Reese/Abrams, I say to JPP, "we'll give you the $85M/5year deal, but instead of the front-loaded contract with $52.5M guaranteed that we gave Vernon, your injury history demands that it be a back-loaded contract with $20-$30M guaranteed."
The contract could structured so that he earns $42M-$48M over the first three years and has a cap hit of $6M in year one.
and his age will all provide leverage that should deliver him to us cheaper unless he's really willing to ride out a year at FT level and test the market next year.
I'm sure that his agent will advise him that taking that risk, at his age, isn't necessarily the right move.
Fact is we kind of lucked out with the cap this year as there aren't many big time FA O-Linemen out there that we need to make room for. If we are keeping JPP i'd rather it be front loaded so we sign better players in future years.
I'd rather keep the O-Line as is and dumpster dive than throw JPP money at 2 middling O-Lineman.
Fact is we kind of lucked out with the cap this year as there aren't many big time FA O-Linemen out there that we need to make room for. If we are keeping JPP i'd rather it be front loaded so we sign better players in future years.
I'd rather keep the O-Line as is and dumpster dive than throw JPP money at 2 middling O-Lineman.
Milton's suggested structure was non-guaranteed, so there'd be no risk. I don't think JPP would care for that, unless there were roster bonuses involved that would make up for it closer to the front than the back.
I read it wrong. Yeah, there's no way he'd take that, what's the point? He's better off playing on the tag than accepting a non guaranteed contract where he makes the least in year 1.
Fine, then they'll have to cut half their team to make it work or severely limit their depth moving forward
Neither of those things are true. The Giants could go the whole year with JPP counting $17M against the cap and still have the room to make the moves that they deem prudent. The pundits are calling this the worst year ever for free agency in terms of available talent and there are needy teams out there flush with cap room. With or without JPP onboard, the Giants weren't going to be big spenders in free agency this year.
Anyone who thinks the Giants will be in play for Andrew Whitworth if only they have the cap room is sadly mistaken.
I'm sure the Giants have a number in mind they will pay for him. He will end up taking a small hometown discount because it means he gets the money NOW. I don't think the Giants will let him walk and will use the Franchise Tag to keep him in the fold. The last thing JPP wants is the FT used on him and will sign a fair contract to avoid it.
That's what the discount would be for the Giants, who would tag JPP and let him decide - risk that you escape the year unharmed, and that a year older and nearing 30 you still get top dollar, or take the discounted contract and get the peace of mind that you didn't maximize your income but that it's in your pocket and nothing - not a football injury or hobby related explosion - can separate you from your cash.
He'll be told to take a good, long look at what happened to Cruz, and ask whether it's worth the risk.
If he walks, it's right to Dallas and that would make my face implode.
Fine, then they'll have to cut half their team to make it work or severely limit their depth moving forward
Not sure they'd have to cut many guys, but they'll be searching the scrap heap for CBs. Using OverTheCap's 'Calculator', I was able to get them ~$20M under the cap via the following ($20M should be enough for JPP+draft+in-season contigency):
1. Cut Romo (designate as June 1): $10.7M dead money ($9M dead in 2018), $14M cap savings
2. Restructure T Smith: Convert $9M of his base to a bonus - saves $7.2M
3. Restructure Frederick: Convert $13M of his base to a bonus - saves $10M
Other possible Dallas moves to create cap space:
1. Restructure Dez
2. Cut/Restructure Sean Lee
3. Cut/Extend Witten
4. Restructure Tyrone Crawford
5. Cut/Extend Doug Free
If they find a sucker to take Romo or decide not to make him a June 1 cut, then it becomes much harder as his $14M savings is reduced to only ~$6M.
And in the case of Smith/Frederick, they aren't really saving money, just push the cap allocations out further.
... tag on JPP. Giamts can market or pass. JPP has trade value, so the Giants can get something in return. I think this is a no-brainer.
But if they tag him that will take $17M away from the salary cap until they find a trading partner. That could limit what they do in the FA market or cause them to miss out on a player they really want.
That's what the discount would be for the Giants, who would tag JPP and let him decide - risk that you escape the year unharmed, and that a year older and nearing 30 you still get top dollar, or take the discounted contract and get the peace of mind that you didn't maximize your income but that it's in your pocket and nothing - not a football injury or hobby related explosion - can separate you from your cash.
He'll be told to take a good, long look at what happened to Cruz, and ask whether it's worth the risk.
He could just take a good, long look at his hand to know the risks.
That's what the discount would be for the Giants, who would tag JPP and let him decide - risk that you escape the year unharmed, and that a year older and nearing 30 you still get top dollar, or take the discounted contract and get the peace of mind that you didn't maximize your income but that it's in your pocket and nothing - not a football injury or hobby related explosion - can separate you from your cash.
He'll be told to take a good, long look at what happened to Cruz, and ask whether it's worth the risk.
I'm sure his agent is advising him against signing a franchise tag deal. Both JPP and his agent know that at his age and injury history this might be their last chance to score the big payday; and the risk grows each year that he doesn't get the big deal.
I read it wrong. Yeah, there's no way he'd take that, what's the point? He's better off playing on the tag than accepting a non guaranteed contract where he makes the least in year 1.
I said $20-$30M guaranteed. Which is still greater than the $17M guaranteed by a franchise tag.
Here's an example of a simple contract along the lines of what I'm saying...
5 years $85M total.
$25M signing bonus.
Salaries of $1M, $6M, $13M, $18M, $22M in years 1-5 respectively.
Cap hits of $6M, $11M, $18M, $23M, $27M respectively.
So he basically gets $26M guaranteed and $45M over the first three years (average compensation $15M/year). His average compensation over the first two years is $16M.
You try and straight up negotiate an extension. If he wants too much you tag him and try to leverage better terms. If that doesn't work you try to trade him. If none of that works you deal with his holdout and eventually he'll report to get his service time.
is injury prone and should not be signed to anything but a performance incentive package. He is hurt all the time for one thing after the other. He also was prone to not staying in shape when he had all the skills in the world to offer. These golden parachute contracts are not for everyone. Keep Hank at all costs. Lets not repeat the Linval Joseph mistake again, and end up with another Austin or Bromley to replace him.
I read it wrong. Yeah, there's no way he'd take that, what's the point? He's better off playing on the tag than accepting a non guaranteed contract where he makes the least in year 1.
I said $20-$30M guaranteed. Which is still greater than the $17M guaranteed by a franchise tag.
Here's an example of a simple contract along the lines of what I'm saying...
5 years $85M total.
$25M signing bonus.
Salaries of $1M, $6M, $13M, $18M, $22M in years 1-5 respectively.
Cap hits of $6M, $11M, $18M, $23M, $27M respectively.
So he basically gets $26M guaranteed and $45M over the first three years (average compensation $15M/year). His average compensation over the first two years is $16M.
Heavily backloaded deals like this were common a decade ago. Agents/players have wizened up recently and avoid these deals with heavily backloaded years that simply inflate the 'total' contract. The deal you propose is essentially a 3 year/$45M deal. Highly doubt he'd agree to something like that.
Take $9M off the final 2 years and spread it over the first 3 seasons and you've likely got a deal. With a better structure (i.e. more frontloaded/guaranteed), I think you can get JPP for 5 yrs/$75M.
he's better of just LeBroning it and playing on 1 year Franchise Tag deals than accept $20-$30 million guaranteed. He's likely getting almost double that guaranteed.
Giants will have to come up with a blow away offer to get him to skip FA.
No they don't, they can offer him the franchise tag and force him to skip FA. Apply the tag, make your other moves, let other teams make other moves, hear out any trade offers, let JPP stew... He will fold and sign our multi year deal that's sitting on the table.. And if you decide you want to move on, you pull the tag. But if I'm NY, I tag him and I don't let him sign anywhere but here unless we get a first rounder out of it.
If you use the tag, that's money you can't use for other FAs. Not sure the Giants want to do that. It is an option, but not clear cut.
was the dead cap if cut when he's slated to make $27 million? I don't think there's any possible way this happens.
He'd never make it to the $27M. He'd almost certainly be a cap casualty after year 3 and would then have a $10M dead money charge. If he did make it through 4 seasons, he'd have a $5M dead cap charge in place of that $27M.
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match. He and Hankins could both be gone, with JPP more likely.
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match. He and Hankins could both be gone, with JPP more likely.
As long as he's tagged that's fine. I'll take the 2 first round picks!
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match. He and Hankins could both be gone, with JPP more likely.
Giants are hoping he never hits the market and if he does he will get tagged.
By now word has probably reached the agent as to potential suitors and open market value. If NYG is thinking about starting at $12M, it probably won't need to go a great deal higher.
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match.
But there is no chance another team makes him a blow away offer if he is tagged. Ergo, he will be tagged.
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match.
But there is no chance another team makes him a blow away offer if he is tagged. Ergo, he will be tagged.
Another team can make him a 'blow away offer' and then offer the Giants compensation for his FT rights. For example, the Browns could give their 2nd #1 pick this year in exchange for the Giants not matching a deal for JPP and then give JPP a deal comparable to Vernon's without backloaded gimmicks.
have Chandler Jones at this point. He'll probably be a tad cheaper and is younger. I agree with the non exclusive tag. That is how we should play it with JPP if he won't take $12-13 million.
have Chandler Jones at this point. He'll probably be a tad cheaper and is younger. I agree with the non exclusive tag. That is how we should play it with JPP if he won't take $12-13 million.
Wouldn't touch Jones with a 10 foot pole. The guy has dog written all over him when he gets paid. He also comes with the increased risk of banned substance suspension.
if they're going to pass on JPP (sounds unlikely), I'd target either Short (likely to be tagged) or Campbell. Campbell will likely end up a little cheaper then JPP and gives them a penetrating DT next to Snacks, not too mention a literal giant in the middle.
Then add a DE in the first 3 rounds to battle Okwara and Owa.
They players are a tight knit group, he's had success with this defense and continuity is important to taking the next step. I do not see them letting JPP walk and then spending big money on another DE in FA. Personally, I don't see them letting JPP walk at all, but if it did come to that, I can see them signing a lower priced vet like they did a few years ago with Ayers.
Nick Perry fan depending on the money too. I am just as unsure with JPP as I am with Jones but if he's gonna cost $5 million less per year I'd rather spread the wealth. We need a good #2 WR and obvious help on the OL. If it means getting a top OL and Jones or Perry or just JPP and a lower level OL sign me up for the let JPP walk camp.
but when you prioritize them, #3 WR isn't at the top of the list. It's certainly on the list. My point being, its not something we need to allocate huge money towards. $5-6M per should get you a suitable player if they go the FA route, IMO.
It's a good idea to try to bring as much of it back as possible. I understand that JPP is an injury risk, and there's always the chance his work ethic regresses. I'd rather take that risk than try to find his replacement though.
no one in their right mind expected Cruz to return at anything near his scheduled contract. Similar for Jennings.
I don't doubt that they want to make a legitimate run at JPP. But cutting Cruz and Jennings had very little to do with it.
that said, IF you think it imperative to keep him, you do so with a long term contract. This is one of the rare times I think planning to incur dead money in two or three years is a good idea. You need 2 pass rushers, and JPP is good against the run, as well. Anything resembling quality is going to cost you big time in FA, or you have to draft one. Spending the money on a tag for one year is stupid unless you think that it gives you leverage for squeezing a long term deal out of him. Personally, if I were him, I'd take the tag, stay away from fireworks, and laugh all the way to the bank, knowing there's a larger payday coming next year on TOP of the big tag payday.
the only question is whether you think he is imperative to bring back. There's no one on the team even close to being able to replace him. anyone in FA is going to be expensive. you are NOT replacing him in FA cheaper unless you get lucky (there is never a under the radar candidate. there are candidates with huge risk factors who might come cheaper, and you get lucky the gamble paid off). You might find a good enough candidate, but he is not going to equal JPP. that leaves the draft.
IMO, JPP has had us by the short hairs for a few years, and the Giants have been unable to develop a suitable replacement, leaving us in this same predicament year after year. either give him a long term contract, or let him go and deal with his absence.
is injury prone and should not be signed to anything but a performance incentive package. He is hurt all the time for one thing after the other. He also was prone to not staying in shape when he had all the skills in the world to offer. These golden parachute contracts are not for everyone. Keep Hank at all costs. Lets not repeat the Linval Joseph mistake again, and end up with another Austin or Bromley to replace him.
Hankins will be more easily replaced than JPP.
Hankins has played well, but run stuffers are easier to find at DT. It could be argued that what they need is a DT that can provide more of an inside pass rush to pair with Harrison.
Again, JPP is a great 2-way 4-3 DE, they don't grow on trees. You are greatly exaggerating his injuries, and he did a terrific job getting into shape after that horrific injury. Your assertion that he doesn't stay in shape is downright absurd.
and does have issues with consistency in staying in shape.
Both are legitimate concerns.
He came back with a vengeance to prove his shape image. it is still a question whether he's committed to life for staying in shape. the injury bug stuck with him.
Fine, then they'll have to cut half their team to make it work or severely limit their depth moving forward
If I'm Reese/Abrams, I say to JPP, "we'll give you the $85M/5year deal, but instead of the front-loaded contract with $52.5M guaranteed that we gave Vernon, your injury history demands that it be a back-loaded contract with $20-$30M guaranteed."
The contract could structured so that he earns $42M-$48M over the first three years and has a cap hit of $6M in year one.
Honestly, there isn't a lot out there to spend 16 on that will help them as much as JPP. He is a rare commodity.
I'm sure that his agent will advise him that taking that risk, at his age, isn't necessarily the right move.
The Giants are really in very good cap shape going forward.
Fact is we kind of lucked out with the cap this year as there aren't many big time FA O-Linemen out there that we need to make room for. If we are keeping JPP i'd rather it be front loaded so we sign better players in future years.
I'd rather keep the O-Line as is and dumpster dive than throw JPP money at 2 middling O-Lineman.
Fact is we kind of lucked out with the cap this year as there aren't many big time FA O-Linemen out there that we need to make room for. If we are keeping JPP i'd rather it be front loaded so we sign better players in future years.
I'd rather keep the O-Line as is and dumpster dive than throw JPP money at 2 middling O-Lineman.
Milton's suggested structure was non-guaranteed, so there'd be no risk. I don't think JPP would care for that, unless there were roster bonuses involved that would make up for it closer to the front than the back.
Anyone who thinks the Giants will be in play for Andrew Whitworth if only they have the cap room is sadly mistaken.
He'll be told to take a good, long look at what happened to Cruz, and ask whether it's worth the risk.
Quote:
If he walks, it's right to Dallas and that would make my face implode.
Fine, then they'll have to cut half their team to make it work or severely limit their depth moving forward
Not sure they'd have to cut many guys, but they'll be searching the scrap heap for CBs. Using OverTheCap's 'Calculator', I was able to get them ~$20M under the cap via the following ($20M should be enough for JPP+draft+in-season contigency):
1. Cut Romo (designate as June 1): $10.7M dead money ($9M dead in 2018), $14M cap savings
2. Restructure T Smith: Convert $9M of his base to a bonus - saves $7.2M
3. Restructure Frederick: Convert $13M of his base to a bonus - saves $10M
Other possible Dallas moves to create cap space:
1. Restructure Dez
2. Cut/Restructure Sean Lee
3. Cut/Extend Witten
4. Restructure Tyrone Crawford
5. Cut/Extend Doug Free
If they find a sucker to take Romo or decide not to make him a June 1 cut, then it becomes much harder as his $14M savings is reduced to only ~$6M.
And in the case of Smith/Frederick, they aren't really saving money, just push the cap allocations out further.
Year 1 salary: 8M(guaranteed)
Year 2 salary: 12M(guaranteed)
Year 3 salary: 15M(guaranteed)
Year 4 salary: 15M
Year 5 salary: 15M
Cap hits:
1. 12M
2. 16M
3. 19M
4. 19M
5. 19M
If he's unhealthy you can cut him after year 3 and save 7 million in cap space the following year.
He'll be told to take a good, long look at what happened to Cruz, and ask whether it's worth the risk.
He could just take a good, long look at his hand to know the risks.
He'll be told to take a good, long look at what happened to Cruz, and ask whether it's worth the risk.
Here's an example of a simple contract along the lines of what I'm saying...
5 years $85M total.
$25M signing bonus.
Salaries of $1M, $6M, $13M, $18M, $22M in years 1-5 respectively.
Cap hits of $6M, $11M, $18M, $23M, $27M respectively.
So he basically gets $26M guaranteed and $45M over the first three years (average compensation $15M/year). His average compensation over the first two years is $16M.
Quote:
I read it wrong. Yeah, there's no way he'd take that, what's the point? He's better off playing on the tag than accepting a non guaranteed contract where he makes the least in year 1.
I said $20-$30M guaranteed. Which is still greater than the $17M guaranteed by a franchise tag.
Here's an example of a simple contract along the lines of what I'm saying...
5 years $85M total.
$25M signing bonus.
Salaries of $1M, $6M, $13M, $18M, $22M in years 1-5 respectively.
Cap hits of $6M, $11M, $18M, $23M, $27M respectively.
So he basically gets $26M guaranteed and $45M over the first three years (average compensation $15M/year). His average compensation over the first two years is $16M.
Heavily backloaded deals like this were common a decade ago. Agents/players have wizened up recently and avoid these deals with heavily backloaded years that simply inflate the 'total' contract. The deal you propose is essentially a 3 year/$45M deal. Highly doubt he'd agree to something like that.
Take $9M off the final 2 years and spread it over the first 3 seasons and you've likely got a deal. With a better structure (i.e. more frontloaded/guaranteed), I think you can get JPP for 5 yrs/$75M.
Quote:
Giants will have to come up with a blow away offer to get him to skip FA.
No they don't, they can offer him the franchise tag and force him to skip FA. Apply the tag, make your other moves, let other teams make other moves, hear out any trade offers, let JPP stew... He will fold and sign our multi year deal that's sitting on the table.. And if you decide you want to move on, you pull the tag. But if I'm NY, I tag him and I don't let him sign anywhere but here unless we get a first rounder out of it.
If you use the tag, that's money you can't use for other FAs. Not sure the Giants want to do that. It is an option, but not clear cut.
Year 1 salary: 8M(guaranteed)
Year 2 salary: 12M(guaranteed)
Year 3 salary: 15M(guaranteed)
Year 4 salary: 15M
Year 5 salary: 15M
Cap hits:
1. 12M
2. 16M
3. 19M
4. 19M
5. 19M
If he's unhealthy you can cut him after year 3 and save 7 million in cap space the following year.
My math was off, you save 11 million after year 3 in this scenario.
He'd never make it to the $27M. He'd almost certainly be a cap casualty after year 3 and would then have a $10M dead money charge. If he did make it through 4 seasons, he'd have a $5M dead cap charge in place of that $27M.
As long as he's tagged that's fine. I'll take the 2 first round picks!
Giants are hoping he never hits the market and if he does he will get tagged.
Quote:
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match.
But there is no chance another team makes him a blow away offer if he is tagged. Ergo, he will be tagged.
Another team can make him a 'blow away offer' and then offer the Giants compensation for his FT rights. For example, the Browns could give their 2nd #1 pick this year in exchange for the Giants not matching a deal for JPP and then give JPP a deal comparable to Vernon's without backloaded gimmicks.
It will start here that they are going to try to get him locked up before FA.
If negotiations hit a stalemate, the offer will leak making NYG's offer look fair.
From there we'll see the franchise tag as leaving them no choice.
The Giants aren't letting their pass rusher go.
Wouldn't touch Jones with a 10 foot pole. The guy has dog written all over him when he gets paid. He also comes with the increased risk of banned substance suspension.
Then add a DE in the first 3 rounds to battle Okwara and Owa.
I meant an outside WR. Shepard will be in the slot. We need a bigger possession type WR on the outside IMO.
I don't doubt that they want to make a legitimate run at JPP. But cutting Cruz and Jennings had very little to do with it.
that said, IF you think it imperative to keep him, you do so with a long term contract. This is one of the rare times I think planning to incur dead money in two or three years is a good idea. You need 2 pass rushers, and JPP is good against the run, as well. Anything resembling quality is going to cost you big time in FA, or you have to draft one. Spending the money on a tag for one year is stupid unless you think that it gives you leverage for squeezing a long term deal out of him. Personally, if I were him, I'd take the tag, stay away from fireworks, and laugh all the way to the bank, knowing there's a larger payday coming next year on TOP of the big tag payday.
the only question is whether you think he is imperative to bring back. There's no one on the team even close to being able to replace him. anyone in FA is going to be expensive. you are NOT replacing him in FA cheaper unless you get lucky (there is never a under the radar candidate. there are candidates with huge risk factors who might come cheaper, and you get lucky the gamble paid off). You might find a good enough candidate, but he is not going to equal JPP. that leaves the draft.
IMO, JPP has had us by the short hairs for a few years, and the Giants have been unable to develop a suitable replacement, leaving us in this same predicament year after year. either give him a long term contract, or let him go and deal with his absence.
Hankins will be more easily replaced than JPP.
Hankins has played well, but run stuffers are easier to find at DT. It could be argued that what they need is a DT that can provide more of an inside pass rush to pair with Harrison.
Again, JPP is a great 2-way 4-3 DE, they don't grow on trees. You are greatly exaggerating his injuries, and he did a terrific job getting into shape after that horrific injury. Your assertion that he doesn't stay in shape is downright absurd.
Both are legitimate concerns.
He came back with a vengeance to prove his shape image. it is still a question whether he's committed to life for staying in shape. the injury bug stuck with him.