If you look at the contracts offered to the likes of Marshall, Ellison, Fluker, and Jerry, it should be clear that the Giants aren't operating as if they are squeezed tight against the cap by JPP's franchise designation. These are not the kind of contracts that teams give out to these types of players when they are feeling cap-strapped.
They don't have the cap room to spend like a drunken sailor, but that would be the case without or without JPP's tag. Last year was their "drunken sailor" year and thankfully they emerged from it without any communicable diseases. When that happens you count your blessings and don't press your luck.
I'm not saying they should or should not have signed Okung (and he's just an example), but they were not serious suitors for him, whether the reported interest and then retraction of the interest were true or not.
Maybe the Giants would have signed Logan Ryan, maybe Stephon Gilmore, maybe they'd be interested in Calais Campbell or Donta Hightower.
Bottom line is because of JPP on the FT they have less money to spend without making a transaction they to this point have been reluctant to make (cutting, restructuring, etc a current player).
that's the facts, anything else you have typed is your opinion.
Frugal, cautious maybe.
Possibly, but Milton doesn't know that, none of us do.
Hankins and Robinson, both good examples. If you believe the beat writers they talked to both, but neither was satisfied with the offer and decided to shop around.
Could be Reese set value and wouldn't budge or the Giants couldn't exceed their offer due to financial constraints.
My sense is given the cap situation and last off-season's spending spree the Giants went in with the mindset of they will sign 5 ponies instead of a horse.
but that doesn't mean in any way IMO there were players they coveted but just didn't pursue and money wasn't a factor.
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I don't think it's limited to not having the money. I think they made a decision that these players, especially on the OL, were not worth either the money or the years or both. I keep coming back to the point that Reese had the money to spend last year that he had because he avoided long term contracts to mediocre or average players in the previous years
Possibly, but Milton doesn't know that, none of us do.
The Giants are putting a price on players and sticking to it. And the price is based on the player's value, not on how much room the Giants have under the cap.
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In comment 13392013 Samiam said:
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I don't think it's limited to not having the money. I think they made a decision that these players, especially on the OL, were not worth either the money or the years or both. I keep coming back to the point that Reese had the money to spend last year that he had because he avoided long term contracts to mediocre or average players in the previous years
Possibly, but Milton doesn't know that, none of us do.
What we do know is how much they've paid Marshall, Ellison, Fluker, and Jerry. And these aren't the kind of contracts given out to these types of players by a team that feels overburdened by the cap.
The Giants are putting a price on players and sticking to it. And the price is based on the player's value, not on how much room the Giants have under the cap.
This is 100% meaningless statement to the topic.
you have literally no idea if the Giants are impacted negatively by JPP being on the FT unless you knew what players Jerry Reese wanted to sign.
Maybe Reese wanted to sign Zeitler, but if he did sign Zeitler that would be the only FA move he could make.
So he decided that the team would be better off signing Ellison, Marshall, Fluker, and Jerry instead of one player like Zeitler.
You want it to be true (that the Giants are not hamstrung by the JPP FT), that's clear, you've said it a ton of times, but you just don't know. It is your opinion.
Think of it this way. If the Giants had unlimited cap room would they have signed anyone different? If yes, then you need to ask yourself if JPP tag amount vs the amount of cap hit were he to sign a LT contract (or even just let him walk) is the difference then you have your answer. But again, you cannot answer that unless you have connections in the Giants FO.
Reese and Abrams set value and stick to it. I'm glad they didn't overpay for guys with serious issues.
It's not just about '17. There's big contracts on the horizon if the Giants want to keep OBJ, Collins, etc.
Per ESPN.com’s Todd Archer, the Cowboys restructured the deals of All-Pro left tackle Tyron Smith and All-Pro center Travis Frederick, freeing up approximately $17.3 million of cap room in the process.
The Cowboys restructured the contract of All-Pro linebacker Sean Lee on Tuesday to free up a little more than $5 million in salary-cap space.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, since I ain't no capologist, but teams have used restructurings since the dawn of the cap to free up cap space. There's usually no down side as in "mortgaging the future" as long as the league keeps raising the salary cap by $10 million a year and as long as Eli's $20 million cap hit comes off after two or three more seasons.
Since we haven't heard from "sources" that they've done a major restructure, they probably haven't yet.
Okung was way over paid. Glad we dont have him for that kind of coin.
Looking at the NFL salary cap increases for the last six years, I think you can see why the cap just isn't the devil that it used to be for teams year to year:
2011 - 3.0 million
2012 + 0.6 million
2013 + 2.4 million
2014 + 10.0 million
2015 + 10.3 million
2016 + 12.0 million
The nice wide receiver from Washington (Charcon?sp?) signs for 16 million for next year and we get a much better receiver for 12 million for two.
That's a gift and not an example of a team that is operating with freedom within the cap.
The idea that any player (other than a qb) ties up that much cap room and is not restricitve is probably fanciful.
The idea too that the increasing cap helps is probably illusional too. It goes up for every team, relatively it doesn't mean anything.
So when you look at a Okung and say he's not worth the money....of course he is, he got it, the marketplace sets the standard and we can't play because of the JPP contract.
Robinson and Hankins are both important and proven and hold a greater upside than they showed last year. Why aren't they signed? Ans: (and it's scarcely debatable) because of the JPP signing.
Robinson was a key to our defense this year? I recall being sober for most of our games but don't remember that.... (Maybe he was good during the drunks ones :) )
If we were even close to being tight, someone would have been cut loose or taken a paycut by now. The team threatened to do it to Harris but it didn't come to that. JT Thomas is still on the roster. Vereen got his $500k.
These aren't the moves of a team that is tight. The Giants could have manufactured a few million just by these moves, without restructuring players they intend to keep and complicating the '18 and '19 caps.
The nice wide receiver from Washington (Charcon?sp?) signs for 16 million for next year and we get a much better receiver for 12 million for two.
That's a gift and not an example of a team that is operating with freedom within the cap.
The idea that any player (other than a qb) ties up that much cap room and is not restricitve is probably fanciful.
The idea too that the increasing cap helps is probably illusional too. It goes up for every team, relatively it doesn't mean anything.
So when you look at a Okung and say he's not worth the money....of course he is, he got it, the marketplace sets the standard and we can't play because of the JPP contract.
Robinson and Hankins are both important and proven and hold a greater upside than they showed last year. Why aren't they signed? Ans: (and it's scarcely debatable) because of the JPP signing.
As for Robinson and Hankins, the Giants aren't the only team who have yet to agree with them on what they're worth. The Giants haven't prioritized signing them because they aren't core players, not because of JPP. If JPP had already signed the longterm deal he is likely to sign, Robinson and Hankins would still be unsigned. The hold up isn't the franchise designation for JPP.
There are all kinds of moves the Giants could be making right now if they were scrambling for much needed cap room to sign free agents they coveted, but they've made none of these moves. The JPP situation will resolve itself in time, the Giants appear to be in no hurry.
You can feel free to disagree with me "at almost every level" but back it up with a better argument than "it's scarcely debatable" (although that did make me chuckle).
I say high, you say low - ( New Window )
Um. Robinson was a key to that D? A career journeyman? Hankins maybe a bigger part but if Reese should have redone Hankins two years ago. And Robinson while solid is easily replaceable.
Keys Jenkins Snacks Collins and JPP and Vernon. Then maybe Hankins. Then You'd have to get past DRC and Apple too before u get to Robinson. In fact he's somewhere between the 8th to 12th guy on that D. Hankins was arguably the last of the staring 4 DL. Only so much cap space.
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Milton cites the Marshall deal as an example of a team that's not cap strapped.
The nice wide receiver from Washington (Charcon?sp?) signs for 16 million for next year and we get a much better receiver for 12 million for two.
That's a gift and not an example of a team that is operating with freedom within the cap.
The idea that any player (other than a qb) ties up that much cap room and is not restricitve is probably fanciful.
The idea too that the increasing cap helps is probably illusional too. It goes up for every team, relatively it doesn't mean anything.
So when you look at a Okung and say he's not worth the money....of course he is, he got it, the marketplace sets the standard and we can't play because of the JPP contract.
Robinson and Hankins are both important and proven and hold a greater upside than they showed last year. Why aren't they signed? Ans: (and it's scarcely debatable) because of the JPP signing.
You're a funny one. On the one hand you say that Okung is worth the money he got because that's what he got and yet somehow JPP is not worth what he got? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. All seem agreed that Denver suffered from bad OL play last year and yet he signed with the Chargers for more money than he was due to make with the Broncos.
As for Robinson and Hankins, the Giants aren't the only team who have yet to agree with them on what they're worth. The Giants haven't prioritized signing them because they aren't core players, not because of JPP. If JPP had already signed the longterm deal he is likely to sign, Robinson and Hankins would still be unsigned. The hold up isn't the franchise designation for JPP.
There are all kinds of moves the Giants could be making right now if they were scrambling for much needed cap room to sign free agents they coveted, but they've made none of these moves. The JPP situation will resolve itself in time, the Giants appear to be in no hurry.
You can feel free to disagree with me "at almost every level" but back it up with a better argument than "it's scarcely debatable" (although that did make me chuckle). I say high, you say low - ( New Window )
grizz is a dunce....don't waste your time.
so do players salaries.
you can't spend the cap increase on repaying the mortgage you restructured AND on increased salaries. It's one or the other.
And why would anyone use lack of interest in Okung as a barometer of spending plans? He sucks. He was let go in successive seasons by teams with no obvious replacement.
The Giants are showing intelligence. Look at this year and last. Last year, the FA market was strong with rising players in areas of need and they pounced. This year, the field is lacking in obvious areas of need like OL, so they get Fluker on the cheap, retain Jerry for depth and now look to the draft, got Marshall on a favorable deal. Shit, WAS is paying more in annual $$ for Pryor than the Giants are for Marshall. The only guy I could say they overpaid for was Ellison. Hopefully he palys up to the contract.
so do players salaries.
you can't spend the cap increase on repaying the mortgage you restructured AND on increased salaries. It's one or the other.
Change your sentence a bit to read 'you can't *continually spend the cap increase' and I'm with you.
But teams do it (and some of them continually). Teams that do it wisely - within reason, not an annual occurrence, sign quality players with the money freed up - tend to not pay for the transgression.
Last season, these guys had to make up for poor drafting by throwing 200+ million around for defensive players, including the top three free agents available- an unprecedented sum spent on one side of the ball in FA-vaulting 3 players into the top 7 most highly paid at their positions.
This season, you are seeing what it is like having to shop in the bargain bin. First they had to franchise one of their top defensive players having set the market for top DE's and then failed to lock him up which cut into an already thin cap. Let's see what else they got:
- a 33 year old wideout who has been mediocre two of his last three seasons and a locker room problem who has worn out his welcome on 4 other teams. Maybe they can get a year of good behavior out of him. That at least has been his MO.
- a 29 year old lead blocker with a loquacious former player as a Dad who has caught a grand total of 50 passes in a 5 year career for less than a 10 yard average. On a team that threw nearly 600 passes last season, Ellison was targeted a mere 20 times. Oh, and the Vikes running game was worse than ours. The much hated Donnell caught 110 in one less year. Stumpy the TE caught 90 in the last two seasons.
- John Jerry. Enough said.
- DJ Fluker who was tried at both tackle positions and guard. San Diego dumped him before he got Rivers hospitalized again. No one in that division, who should be pretty familiar with Fluker, expressed any interest in him, looking elsewhere, anywhere else, for OL help.
There is your help for an offense that was terrible last season. A #1 pick bust reclamation project, a guy released from his last team due to age and a locker room fistfight, a meh player that everyone here wanted replaced and a role player. In a league where speed and quickness kills, we managed to get slower. If that isn't shopping Filene's basement, what is?
And before one of you starts with the "what else did you want them to do?", the answer is there is nothing they could do. They hamstrung themselves with poor drafts, lack of foresight, excess caution, and last season's big spending spree. Barring a miracle season from one of these guys, if I'm Eli, I'm looking for a landing place because they've already set him up as the fall guy.
This JPP thing has taken on a life of its own. You guys are making assumptions and leaps based on nothing more than opinion. If you really think about it, the Giants have more long term cap room now then they would if they signed JPP long term. Yes they have eaten a few extra million here and now with the FT but that doesn't mean they sign some super star player. You're reaching and looking for excuses to blame JPP.
2) Given that no one else has signed Hankins or Robinson either, it is at least as likely they they have overestimated their value as it is that the Giants are too cap strapped to sign them. Yes, if they had more cap room, they might be willing to overpay, but that comes back to bite you in the end.
3) If a team is going to try to reset the career of an OL who has struggled for a couple of years Fluker is a much better bet than Okung. Both much cheaper and much younger. Don't confuse being smart with being poor.
The King of Negative Spin Strikes Again!
so do players salaries.
you can't spend the cap increase on repaying the mortgage you restructured AND on increased salaries. It's one or the other.
Sorry, but I'm not willing to just put a caveat on this. If the cap goes up 3 million one year you can just pay for salary increases and not have any money left to meet obligations you may have pushed out into the future due to a contract restructuring.
If the cap goes up 10 million instead of 3 million, it still costs the 3 million to pay salary increases -- or let's say 5 million if the team having the extra cash spends more on increasing salaries -- and they still have 5 million to spend on any expense pushed into the future due to a contract restructure.
With 3 million one or the other; with 10 million, both.
Assumptions are being made on both sides and none of you knows anything (me included).
The only way to answer the question is to get an answer to what I posed yesterday. "If the Giants had the Browns (or basically unlimited) cap space would they have signed anyone different?"
If the answer is yes, and the cost of that player on the 2017 cap is the difference between either JPP FT amount and a potential 2017 LT contract cap hit (say $9M) or letting JPP walk altogether then your answer is yes, JPP is limiting what the Giants can do in FA and want to do in FA.
If the answer is no, even with a billion dollars in cap space the Giants still just sign Marshall, Ellison, Fluker, Darkwa and Jerry then people are correct JPP FT is not impacting the team.
My sense is that it could be, especially with someone like Zeitler where he was a fit, a need, not some mediocre option or worse like Okung, and the Giants simply couldn't get into a bidding war, so maybe didn't even pursue him, but without knowing for sure, it's just an opinion.
But the Giants think more of John Jerry than many of us admit and who's to say what they think of Zeitler. The Bengals have $36M in cap space and let him leave.
Acquired
Re-signed Terrence Williams
Nolan Carroll
Damontre Moore
Stephen Paea
Lost
Ron Leary (starter)
Barry Church (starter)
Terrell McClain (starter)
Jack Crawford
Morris Claiborne (starter)
JJ Wilcox
Ryan Davis
They are also about to incur a ~$20M dead money cap charge due to numerous Romo restructures and their aging TE has a $12M cap number. Witten is no longer a $7.5M TE, but their options are cutting him (and having $4.5M in dead money) and needing to find a replacement or paying him the $7.5M.
And while the Smith/Frederick/Crawford continually restructured deals create lots of cap space each year, the backends of those contracts are starting to get ugly (especially Smith's). Smith is basically in Romo territory now with $18M in dead money if he's cut before 2018. And when they restructure his deal again next offseason to reduce his $17.5M 2018 cap hit, it's just going to push that huge liability further into the future while generating (proportionally) less available cap space. They better hope Smith stays healthy and continues to perform at an elite level for the next 5+ years, an eternity in the NFL.
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why couldn't it be one big free agent like Zeitler?
Zeitler would've been the one big ticket free agent who would fit he profile of someone the Giants would spend for. He is young enough and is coming off a Pro Bowl year. And it would seem that he fills a need.
But the Giants think more of John Jerry than many of us admit and who's to say what they think of Zeitler. The Bengals have $36M in cap space and let him leave.
I think the lack of interest in Zeitler is more about the need to sign Pugh/Richburg to extensions and not wanting to have 3 huge deals on interior OL guys, a position the Giants (like most teams) value less than OTs and several other offensive positions.
Of course, I have no way to prove it.
technically he never hit FA, but the effect is the same.
technically he never hit FA, but the effect is the same.
Yup! For some reason, people always ignore the re-signing of their own big ticket FAs!
The Giants don't want to commit long term big money to any of the free agent OLinemen. IT's as simple as that.
Is JPP being on the FT limiting what the Giants can do in FA? So when people suggest maybe the Giants would have signed a big $$ FA, one, it's obviously assuming JPP wasn't on the tag, so saying they did they signed JPP show a complete lack of understanding of the topic.
and I estimated the Giants could save $9M off JPP if he were signed to a LT contract as opposed to playing on the cap. Jenkins had an $8M cap hit last year. I just think the Giants can get creative with how they structure a JPP LT contract and limit the year 1 cap hit. If they want. Maybe they don't save $8M it's 7 or 6, they could still fit a significant FA under the cap if they wanted too by signing JPP LT and not having to cut or restructure anyone.
and wrt Zeitler, maybe the Giants like Zeitler more than Pugh.
And don't tell me the Giants value tackles more when they address the RT spot (so far) with Fluker or Bobby Hart. That sure screams "all-in" commitment.
and to reiterate, this is all opinion, no one can tell me they've drawn conclusive facts based on how the Giants have operated this off-season.
Lastly, I'm not saying the Giants did anything bad or wrong this off-season or should have done something different. and I didn't expect anything different.
I'm simply saying that while some people are strenuously trying to claim that JPP on the FT has had no impact on the Giants free agency plans that's bullshit to say as a fact.
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Reese and GM Jr could take a dump in the middle of Broadway and some of you would talk about the outstanding fragrance.
The King of Negative Spin Strikes Again!
Last season, these guys had to make up for poor drafting by throwing 200+ million around for defensive players, including the top three free agents available- an unprecedented sum spent on one side of the ball in FA-vaulting 3 players into the top 7 most highly paid at their positions.
This season, you are seeing what it is like having to shop in the bargain bin. First they had to franchise one of their top defensive players having set the market for top DE's and then failed to lock him up which cut into an already thin cap. Let's see what else they got:
- a 33 year old wideout who has been mediocre two of his last three seasons and a locker room problem who has worn out his welcome on 4 other teams. Maybe they can get a year of good behavior out of him. That at least has been his MO.
- a 29 year old lead blocker with a loquacious former player as a Dad who has caught a grand total of 50 passes in a 5 year career for less than a 10 yard average. On a team that threw nearly 600 passes last season, Ellison was targeted a mere 20 times. Oh, and the Vikes running game was worse than ours. The much hated Donnell caught 110 in one less year. Stumpy the TE caught 90 in the last two seasons.
- John Jerry. Enough said.
- DJ Fluker who was tried at both tackle positions and guard. San Diego dumped him before he got Rivers hospitalized again. No one in that division, who should be pretty familiar with Fluker, expressed any interest in him, looking elsewhere, anywhere else, for OL help.
There is your help for an offense that was terrible last season. A #1 pick bust reclamation project, a guy released from his last team due to age and a locker room fistfight, a meh player that everyone here wanted replaced and a role player. In a league where speed and quickness kills, we managed to get slower. If that isn't shopping Filene's basement, what is?
And before one of you starts with the "what else did you want them to do?", the answer is there is nothing they could do. They hamstrung themselves with poor drafts, lack of foresight, excess caution, and last season's big spending spree. Barring a miracle season from one of these guys, if I'm Eli, I'm looking for a landing place because they've already set him up as the fall guy.
This narrative is so tired. If the Giants had drafted Jenkins, Vernon and Harrison and they all became free agents last year, Reese still would have had to hand out those same contracts to retain them. Where I'll agree is that the only reason they had that cap room last year was because of their mediocre drafting for a stretch of time that left very few players worth keeping after their rookie deals.
IMO, where the Giants FO is most flawed isn't in the big contracts; it's in the small ones. For example, John Jerry is a JAG, and he just got a contract that takes up material cap space (with guaranteed money). That's where the poor drafting bites the Giants in the form of cap room. They should have their own pipeline of players to replace JAGs as they get to free agency. That's what the consistently good franchises do. That not only saves you a few million each year in cap room, it also generates compensatory picks when your free agents sign elsewhere and you can use your own roster to offset them.