It's not that simple. Overpaying for one is not the same as overpaying for the other.
One's a premium position and the other isn't.
It might be time to accept that the concept of "premium position" is bullshit. Watching John Jerry repeatedly fist us sure made guard feel like a premium position.
is missing the big time talent we usually have on the OL. Ramcyzk has injuries and heart questions. Bolles has strength and age questions. Cam Robinson has character and probably a RT questions. Lamp has short arm can he play OT or is he an OG questions. There is no legit top LT like in so many years. However I think there is decent depth no different than any other years. We weren't getting a top OT at 23 anyways if there was one available. So with that I don't think it is all that bad. I think WR is pretty stacked along with TE and I think DE is probably the worst that I can remember minus Garrett.
What are the "heart questions"? Because he took a year off after high school? The narrative seems to be that he only returned to football because of what it could provide him, but the reality is that he came back and played D-3 ball. That's not a fast-track to the NFL or to any preferential treatment along the way. If anything, I think RR is a guy that stepped away from the game and missed it.
Based on the 2016 performance, would you bid for Pugh or Richburg or
I think they are both replaceable with a draft pick or free agency so I would not pursue them aggressively,especially if they get a couple of o-linemen in this draft.
But why the F would you ever pay a lot for them as free agents.
They're not that great.
Good, yes. But nothing more.
MS -- here's prediction for you -- the Giants Oline is going to turn things around this year -- I'm gonna be interested to see how many critics are going to eat their words
There's no OL depth, but there is talent in the 1st few rounds.
Right now: CBS: Ramczyk is 18th, Bolles 27th, Lamp 28th and Robinson 35th.
GBN: RR 19th, Lamp 23rd, Bolles 31st and Robinson 35th.
Huddle Report: Bolles 20th, RR 22, Lamp 23, Robinson 24.
So three different sites have the top offensive linemen in this draft going right around where we select. Imo several of these guys clearly wouldn't be reaches at 23. To me Lamp is an immediate starter at an OG position for any team that takes him, RR could be an immediate starter at LT (as could Bolles) and at worst Robinson would be an immediate starter for any number of good teams at RT.
I like some of these guys better than others, but to say that all of them would be reaches just doesn't fit the facts.
Now I'm not arguing that the Giants should take any of them at 23, but it's reasonable to think that some of them may be in their top tier of available players when 23 rolls around.
Cam Robinson is the prototype of everything the Giants love in an OL. Long arms, three year starter in the SEC, 21 years old, National Champion, Outland Trophy winner, and his 5.15 in the forty wasn't too shabby. I have no doubt that the Giants will have a 1st round grade on him, probably in the top ten on their board.
The arrest for a half a gram of weed and an unlicensed handgun is a non-issue. All it does is confirm that he was a 21-year old kid living in Alabama at the time, but we already knew that. Character-wise, I'm more concerned about Bolles.
But why the F would you ever pay a lot for them as free agents.
They're not that great.
Good, yes. But nothing more.
MS -- here's prediction for you -- the Giants Oline is going to turn things around this year -- I'm gonna be interested to see how many critics are going to eat their words
Will be very happy to eat my words, especially about the offensive line. I've been sour grapes about this unit since the last Giants Super Bowl Season. Reese has tried to fix the problem... 6 years later he gets a solid C-.
Cam Robinson is the prototype of everything the Giants love in an OL. Long arms, three year starter in the SEC, 21 years old, National Champion, Outland Trophy winner, and his 5.15 in the forty wasn't too shabby. I have no doubt that the Giants will have a 1st round grade on him, probably in the top ten on their board.
The arrest for a half a gram of weed and an unlicensed handgun is a non-issue. All it does is confirm that he was a 21-year old kid living in Alabama at the time, but we already knew that. Character-wise, I'm more concerned about Bolles.
Do you think Robinson's arrest is a nonissue for the Giants? I agree that it might not be the biggest deal, but I think you're dismissing it too quickly because of your own desire for the Giants to draft him.
But why the F would you ever pay a lot for them as free agents.
They're not that great.
Good, yes. But nothing more.
MS -- here's prediction for you -- the Giants Oline is going to turn things around this year -- I'm gonna be interested to see how many critics are going to eat their words
I hope you are right..but I can't see them. The same unit..doing a 180 all of the sudden
Anything. Let's not forget Robert Gallery a few years back. This guy was the next great OT and turned out to be an average OG. I don't want an OL in the first round by I think there are decent OL in this draft, specifically Forrest Lamp. He arms are shorter than ideal but he is a strong, athletic and versatile OL, he is the one guy that I could see NYG taking in round 1 and I'd be ok with it. He might be the next Chris Snee at RG and he could be a pretty good LT in the NFL. I just am not sure NYG wants to draft a RG in round 1. Dawkins or Moton in round 2 seem like better value to me.
Do you think Robinson's arrest is a nonissue for the Giants? I agree that it might not be the biggest deal, but I think you're dismissing it too quickly because of your own desire for the Giants to draft him.
It requires that he be questioned on it in interviews and how he answers the questions could be either positively or negatively revealing about his character. Is he defensive? Is he contrite? The facts of the case themselves appear pretty harmless. I thought it was last fall but it was actually 13 months ago that the arrest happened, so he was just a 20-year old smoking some weed with three buddies in a parked car during "the offseason." There was a gun underneath the driver's side seat (and I guess he was in the driver's seat) and it turned out the gun was stolen. No suggestion that Robinson was the one who stole the gun, only that he was in possession of it.
What little I read of the incident sounded like the four kids were forthcoming and cooperative with the police officer who made the arrest. The D.A. chose not to pursue and even made light of it. I've also read that Robinson has interviewed well. And there is no reports that he ever tested positive for marijuana.
Though only Robinson and Jones were arrested and taken to jail, there were four people in Robinson's rental car early in the morning of May 17. The other two were handcuffed initially, Guerriero said, but only Jones and Robinson were booked. The incident report obtained through public records made no mention of the other two involved in the case.
Only a half gram of marijuana was found in the car, Guerriero said, and nobody had clear possession. The arrests were made, Guerriero said, only after Jones alerted police to the gun on his lap.
"Mr. Jones is the one who called it to the police's attention because he didn't want anything to happen," Guerriero said. "'Look, I have a gun in my lap. My hands are up. I just want to show you.'"
Possessing the gun didn't violate the law, so Guerriero said were no grounds for further searches. The attorney said it wasn't clear if the car occupants gave consent to search the vehicle.
"Nothing said they did," Guerriero said.
Jerry Jones, the local DA, said there were considerations beyond the evidence that went into his decision to drop prosecution.
"I want to emphasize once again that the main reason I'm doing this is that I refuse to ruin the lives of two young men who have spent their adolescence and their teenage years, working and sweating, while we were all home in the air conditioning,"
That situation remains a topic in the barrage of interviews Robinson has had with NFL teams.
"Obviously, we address the elephant in the room which is the incident I got into last summer," Robinson said. "I explain it to them. I tell them what happened, exactly what happened -- 100 percent truthful with them and we move on and we talk ball from there."
Robinson's message to teams is simple.
"First and foremost, I didn't want that incident to define me as a person," Robinson said. "It's not who I am as a man and I respect myself and my family and my university at the time and all my teammates."
The rest of Robinson's time with reporters dealt with football and his standing in the draft. When asked about playing four years at left tackle, he politely interrupted holding up three fingers.
Later, he got a question about what sets him apart from the other offensive tackles.
"I think that's kind of up to the coaches to judge and to decide," Robinson said. "I'm not really here to brag on myself too much."
But he isn't now, and hasn't been. If the plan is to overpay for him like we did for JPP and OV (who despite their contracts figure to need a draft pick to help them generate a pass rush...yikes), then I'm not on board with that either.
Bang for the buck.
He [Pugh] isn't expensive now? He is the very definition of overpaying/expensive. His salary this year is $8.8 million. He is more likely to miss games than to play 16. In his 4 years, he has played 55 games with an average of 14/yr. If he continues his inability to suit up for a full season and sticks to his average, then he'll be paid $628K per game.
BBI is always quick to say that he plays like a top 5 guard when he is healthy. But whenever the group is challenged to provide the rankings/grades, no one is able to back up their assertions. Some will say he plays at a pro-bowl caliber, but I can't find anytime he was named to be a replacement for a back-up for a pro-bowler. Perhaps, if they named replacements for replacements for back-ups for pro-bowlers, then he might get mentioned. Until that happens, Reese should be drafting Pugh's replacement this year.
was bitching all year about the OL and now we don't want one? Look I don't think we should go OL in round 1 necessarily, but I trust Reese and Ross in rounds 1-2 that if they do go OL we will get a really good player. If we get a really good tackle at 23 - you guys are gonna complain about that too?
was bitching all year about the OL and now we don't want one? Look I don't think we should go OL in round 1 necessarily, but I trust Reese and Ross in rounds 1-2 that if they do go OL we will get a really good player. If we get a really good tackle at 23 - you guys are gonna complain about that too?
I'm fine with a Rd. 1 OL so long as a player like Howard, Christian, Njoku, etc. isn't there. But I don't think it is necessary to go 1-2 with OL. If rd. 1 is OL, then rd. 3 would be more palatable. I'm not interested in the 4th-7th round OL picks. We have demonstrated repeatedly an inability to develop OL. I would rather they package those picks or a combination of them to move up in the second and third rounds to secure OL talent.
I'm wth you there. Just find it odd that everyone now is off the OL train.
It's not about being on or off the OL train. It's about recognizing what positions are strong in the upcoming draft, and drafting to those strengths instead of trying to fill a need by reaching for an offensive lineman at the expense of a more highly skilled player at another position, especially in the 1st round.
I'm wth you there. Just find it odd that everyone now is off the OL train.
It's not about being on or off the OL train. It's about recognizing what positions are strong in the upcoming draft, and drafting to those strengths instead of trying to fill a need by reaching for an offensive lineman at the expense of a more highly skilled player at another position, especially in the 1st round.
not somehow inking Fluker for more than one year. Yes, it's possible he only wanted a 1 year prove it deal, but I have a lot of faith in Solari and I predict Fluker does a good job this year..
I'm wth you there. Just find it odd that everyone now is off the OL train.
It's not about being on or off the OL train. It's about recognizing what positions are strong in the upcoming draft, and drafting to those strengths instead of trying to fill a need by reaching for an offensive lineman at the expense of a more highly skilled player at another position, especially in the 1st round.
I don't think anyone is recommending that the Giants shouldn't go BPA, it's just that there's a bunch of us who believe that Robinson, Ramcyzk, and/or Bolles are legit 1st round talent. If they aren't top ten, who cares, the Giants aren't drafting in the top ten.
Both sides of this debate are making assumptions based on the limited "data" we have on the prospects. The anti-OL side assumes that none of the OL are worth the 23rd pick, the pro-OL side assumes there are two or three. So we're arguing from different assumptions, which is useless.
Depending on how the players come off the board two weeks from now, we may or may not find out how the Giants viewed them. One thing I will say is that hopefully the pro-OL side is the side that's right and one of those OL is actually available when the Giants are on the clock. Because there is no position on the team more in need of a 1st round talent added to the mix than the OL.
p.s.--If the X position in the draft is deep and the Y position in the draft is shallow. And you have needs at both positions. When faced with the choice between two equally graded prospects in round one, which should you draft: the guy who plays X or the guy plays Y?
But he isn't now, and hasn't been. If the plan is to overpay for him like we did for JPP and OV (who despite their contracts figure to need a draft pick to help them generate a pass rush...yikes), then I'm not on board with that either.
Bang for the buck.
He [Pugh] isn't expensive now? He is the very definition of overpaying/expensive. His salary this year is $8.8 million. He is more likely to miss games than to play 16. In his 4 years, he has played 55 games with an average of 14/yr. If he continues his inability to suit up for a full season and sticks to his average, then he'll be paid $628K per game.
BBI is always quick to say that he plays like a top 5 guard when he is healthy. But whenever the group is challenged to provide the rankings/grades, no one is able to back up their assertions. Some will say he plays at a pro-bowl caliber, but I can't find anytime he was named to be a replacement for a back-up for a pro-bowler. Perhaps, if they named replacements for replacements for back-ups for pro-bowlers, then he might get mentioned. Until that happens, Reese should be drafting Pugh's replacement this year.
Prior to this upcoming season his cap hit never exceeded $2.6 million. The front office probably should have done something with him by now: either extend him or trade him.
As I've said repeatedly when discussing this topic, if the Giants have a strong conviction about an offensive lineman who's available when they're up in the 1st round, I have absolutely no problem if they draft him. What I don't want them to do is reach for one at the expense of a more highly skilled prospect at another position. You can call that "The Pugh Effect."
It's not about being "pro-OL" or "anti-OL." No one should be satisfied with the offensive linemen we have now. They've woefully underperformed for the past couple of years, and that's with the relatively recent additions of two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick. If the Giants have shown an inability to develop mid-to-late-round OL prospects, well, their track record with high draft choices to address the problem hasn't been a cause for celebration, either. In short, they need to draft smarter, and they need to improve their player development.
As I've said repeatedly when discussing this topic, if the Giants have a strong conviction about an offensive lineman who's available when they're up in the 1st round, I have absolutely no problem if they draft him. What I don't want them to do is reach for one at the expense of a more highly skilled prospect at another position. You can call that "The Pugh Effect."
There is no reason to believe Pugh was a reach. If you don't trust the Giants ability to judge OL talent, how about the Cowboys? They are widely considered to have the best OL in the NFL and Pugh was ranked #21 on their draft board.
As I've said repeatedly when discussing this topic, if the Giants have a strong conviction about an offensive lineman who's available when they're up in the 1st round, I have absolutely no problem if they draft him. What I don't want them to do is reach for one at the expense of a more highly skilled prospect at another position. You can call that "The Pugh Effect."
There is no reason to believe Pugh was a reach. If you don't trust the Giants ability to judge OL talent, how about the Cowboys? They are widely considered to have the best OL in the NFL and Pugh was ranked #21 on their draft board.
It's an inexact science. Cowboys 2013 draft board - ( New Window )
Yeah. As a Guard. Besides, the vast majority of "gurus" had him pegged as a 2nd round pick (your own Drew Boylhart gave him a 3rd round grade).
As for the Cowboys, while Travis Frederick proved to be a very smart pick (much maligned at the time), Tyron Smith and Zach Martin were no-brainers, and La'El Collins was a special exception. They did strike gold with UDFA Ron Leary, just as we did years ago with Rich Seubert.
Oh, and if you look at some of the players drafted after we took Pugh
in question being BPA at around our 23 pick. In fact a number of them have 3 OL players right in the 15-25 range. So while it may be fact, for all the BPA guys here, that the OL position is weaker this year, the fact is that the top guys are likely to be in the BPA range when we draft.
When people say its a weak OL class its because there is no top 10 type guy, and I don't think the depth is there. However the top guys are right there in our range. Since this matches our needs I am all for drafting one. We are getting a #23 type guy anyway, why not pick the biggest need area (its call creating tiers).
some here want to draft Dalvin Cook but not go near Robinson because of his one arrest. Seems to me that Robinson is a much cleaner dude than Cook.
Are there any posters who have been opposed to Robinson because of his arrest but in favor of Cook? I haven't read anyone take that position. Some are enamored with Cook because he's arguably more talented than Robinson (to whatever degree you can compare across positions), and some are opposed to Robinson based on his own merit (comparisons to Flowers, in particular, will do that). But I have yet to see anyone prefer Cook over Robinson simply because of Robinson's arrest.
Seems to me you created a scenario that doesn't actually exist.
I'm wth you there. Just find it odd that everyone now is off the OL train.
It's not about being on or off the OL train. It's about recognizing what positions are strong in the upcoming draft, and drafting to those strengths instead of trying to fill a need by reaching for an offensive lineman at the expense of a more highly skilled player at another position, especially in the 1st round.
I would make the case that it could be equally strategic to let those strong/deep positions come back to you later in the draft (where they will likely be the best value) and be very mindful of positional scarcity at the top of the draft. You can get a very good CB later in this draft; you can get a very good RB later in this draft. Chances are, if you want a decent OL, you might want to consider drafting one early since the depth is not there.
I'm wth you there. Just find it odd that everyone now is off the OL train.
It's not about being on or off the OL train. It's about recognizing what positions are strong in the upcoming draft, and drafting to those strengths instead of trying to fill a need by reaching for an offensive lineman at the expense of a more highly skilled player at another position, especially in the 1st round.
I would make the case that it could be equally strategic to let those strong/deep positions come back to you later in the draft (where they will likely be the best value) and be very mindful of positional scarcity at the top of the draft. You can get a very good CB later in this draft; you can get a very good RB later in this draft. Chances are, if you want a decent OL, you might want to consider drafting one early since the depth is not there.
On the other hand, I would rather not pass up the chance to draft a top-tier talent at a premium position - say CB or DE - for a "decent OL." As for the OL depth in the upcoming draft, while it's not great for OTs, it's not bad for OGs (and OG/RT types). The Giants need to do a better job of identifying OL talent, especially in the middle rounds, and developing that talent. What they don't need to do is throw good money after bad, so to speak, by reaching for O-Lineman early to fill needs.
I have a sick feeling the Giants take an OL in the first ... just like they reached for Pugh/Flowers
I hope I'm wrong
The 2013 first round draft sucked as much as any first round could suck. The giants didn't reach for anything when they took Pugh at 19. He was one of the best picks from that first round. Take a look at the first rounders from 2013.
Flowers may likely prove you wrong as well. Pugh did from day one.
But he isn't now, and hasn't been. If the plan is to overpay for him like we did for JPP and OV (who despite their contracts figure to need a draft pick to help them generate a pass rush...yikes), then I'm not on board with that either.
Bang for the buck.
My god you are such a heal on this topic. Two way DEs cost a lot of money. Go cheap on the 4-3 DE and your defense will blow bags of dick. Vernon and jpp are great DEs. They aren't bad at rushing the passer at all. They are good but in your world where you never admit being wrong they are the reason why the pass rush needs one more player. If the giants didn't have tuck in 07 that defense, with gifted DEs strahan and osi would in fact need another pass rusher.
Jpp and Vernon are two of the most important defenders on this team. Add to that. Christ.
I'm wth you there. Just find it odd that everyone now is off the OL train.
It's not about being on or off the OL train. It's about recognizing what positions are strong in the upcoming draft, and drafting to those strengths instead of trying to fill a need by reaching for an offensive lineman at the expense of a more highly skilled player at another position, especially in the 1st round.
I would make the case that it could be equally strategic to let those strong/deep positions come back to you later in the draft (where they will likely be the best value) and be very mindful of positional scarcity at the top of the draft. You can get a very good CB later in this draft; you can get a very good RB later in this draft. Chances are, if you want a decent OL, you might want to consider drafting one early since the depth is not there.
On the other hand, I would rather not pass up the chance to draft a top-tier talent at a premium position - say CB or DE - for a "decent OL." As for the OL depth in the upcoming draft, while it's not great for OTs, it's not bad for OGs (and OG/RT types). The Giants need to do a better job of identifying OL talent, especially in the middle rounds, and developing that talent. What they don't need to do is throw good money after bad, so to speak, by reaching for O-Lineman early to fill needs.
I think we're just going to fundamentally disagree, and that's fine. I think it's better to chase scarcity early and depth later as long as the grades are relatively close. If you choose to take a CB or RB early, you could find repeated scenarios in subsequent rounds where another CB and/or RB is the BPA. And then you reach multiple times out of desire for roster construction consideration.
I'm not advocating for taking an OL in the first if the grade from the scouts doesn't warrant it; I'm just saying that if it's close, scarcity should factor in the same way that Giants have often said positional need does - as a tiebreaker.
trust your value board.
Quote:
In comment 13425709 David in LA said:
Quote:
.
It's not that simple. Overpaying for one is not the same as overpaying for the other.
One's a premium position and the other isn't.
It might be time to accept that the concept of "premium position" is bullshit. Watching John Jerry repeatedly fist us sure made guard feel like a premium position.
...in desperate need for star power upfront.
We have no stars... just a couple of good players and then a lot of mediocrity. And practically zero bench strength.
But we can't go O-line in Round One this year. Maybe TE or RB or...
...wait for it:
And with the 23rd selection in the 2017 NFL Draft the New York Giants select...
....Quarterback out of Texas Tech, Pat Mahomes... Mahomes.
+1, I agree. I think the top 4 guys are good, its just not deep.
Where did I say that?
I'm saying the concept of a "premium position" is made up, faulty thinking.
What are the "heart questions"? Because he took a year off after high school? The narrative seems to be that he only returned to football because of what it could provide him, but the reality is that he came back and played D-3 ball. That's not a fast-track to the NFL or to any preferential treatment along the way. If anything, I think RR is a guy that stepped away from the game and missed it.
I think they are both replaceable with a draft pick or free agency so I would not pursue them aggressively,especially if they get a couple of o-linemen in this draft.
...of Pugh and Richburg than BBI.
But why the F would you ever pay a lot for them as free agents.
They're not that great.
Good, yes. But nothing more.
...of Pugh and Richburg than BBI.
But why the F would you ever pay a lot for them as free agents.
They're not that great.
Good, yes. But nothing more.
MS -- here's prediction for you -- the Giants Oline is going to turn things around this year -- I'm gonna be interested to see how many critics are going to eat their words
Right now: CBS: Ramczyk is 18th, Bolles 27th, Lamp 28th and Robinson 35th.
GBN: RR 19th, Lamp 23rd, Bolles 31st and Robinson 35th.
Huddle Report: Bolles 20th, RR 22, Lamp 23, Robinson 24.
So three different sites have the top offensive linemen in this draft going right around where we select. Imo several of these guys clearly wouldn't be reaches at 23. To me Lamp is an immediate starter at an OG position for any team that takes him, RR could be an immediate starter at LT (as could Bolles) and at worst Robinson would be an immediate starter for any number of good teams at RT.
I like some of these guys better than others, but to say that all of them would be reaches just doesn't fit the facts.
Now I'm not arguing that the Giants should take any of them at 23, but it's reasonable to think that some of them may be in their top tier of available players when 23 rolls around.
The arrest for a half a gram of weed and an unlicensed handgun is a non-issue. All it does is confirm that he was a 21-year old kid living in Alabama at the time, but we already knew that. Character-wise, I'm more concerned about Bolles.
Quote:
...of Pugh and Richburg than BBI.
But why the F would you ever pay a lot for them as free agents.
They're not that great.
Good, yes. But nothing more.
MS -- here's prediction for you -- the Giants Oline is going to turn things around this year -- I'm gonna be interested to see how many critics are going to eat their words
Will be very happy to eat my words, especially about the offensive line. I've been sour grapes about this unit since the last Giants Super Bowl Season. Reese has tried to fix the problem... 6 years later he gets a solid C-.
The arrest for a half a gram of weed and an unlicensed handgun is a non-issue. All it does is confirm that he was a 21-year old kid living in Alabama at the time, but we already knew that. Character-wise, I'm more concerned about Bolles.
Do you think Robinson's arrest is a nonissue for the Giants? I agree that it might not be the biggest deal, but I think you're dismissing it too quickly because of your own desire for the Giants to draft him.
Quote:
...of Pugh and Richburg than BBI.
But why the F would you ever pay a lot for them as free agents.
They're not that great.
Good, yes. But nothing more.
MS -- here's prediction for you -- the Giants Oline is going to turn things around this year -- I'm gonna be interested to see how many critics are going to eat their words
I hope you are right..but I can't see them. The same unit..doing a 180 all of the sudden
What little I read of the incident sounded like the four kids were forthcoming and cooperative with the police officer who made the arrest. The D.A. chose not to pursue and even made light of it. I've also read that Robinson has interviewed well. And there is no reports that he ever tested positive for marijuana.
Only a half gram of marijuana was found in the car, Guerriero said, and nobody had clear possession. The arrests were made, Guerriero said, only after Jones alerted police to the gun on his lap.
"Mr. Jones is the one who called it to the police's attention because he didn't want anything to happen," Guerriero said. "'Look, I have a gun in my lap. My hands are up. I just want to show you.'"
Possessing the gun didn't violate the law, so Guerriero said were no grounds for further searches. The attorney said it wasn't clear if the car occupants gave consent to search the vehicle.
"Nothing said they did," Guerriero said.
Jerry Jones, the local DA, said there were considerations beyond the evidence that went into his decision to drop prosecution.
"I want to emphasize once again that the main reason I'm doing this is that I refuse to ruin the lives of two young men who have spent their adolescence and their teenage years, working and sweating, while we were all home in the air conditioning,"
"Obviously, we address the elephant in the room which is the incident I got into last summer," Robinson said. "I explain it to them. I tell them what happened, exactly what happened -- 100 percent truthful with them and we move on and we talk ball from there."
Robinson's message to teams is simple.
"First and foremost, I didn't want that incident to define me as a person," Robinson said. "It's not who I am as a man and I respect myself and my family and my university at the time and all my teammates."
The rest of Robinson's time with reporters dealt with football and his standing in the draft. When asked about playing four years at left tackle, he politely interrupted holding up three fingers.
Later, he got a question about what sets him apart from the other offensive tackles.
"I think that's kind of up to the coaches to judge and to decide," Robinson said. "I'm not really here to brag on myself too much."
Bang for the buck.
He [Pugh] isn't expensive now? He is the very definition of overpaying/expensive. His salary this year is $8.8 million. He is more likely to miss games than to play 16. In his 4 years, he has played 55 games with an average of 14/yr. If he continues his inability to suit up for a full season and sticks to his average, then he'll be paid $628K per game.
BBI is always quick to say that he plays like a top 5 guard when he is healthy. But whenever the group is challenged to provide the rankings/grades, no one is able to back up their assertions. Some will say he plays at a pro-bowl caliber, but I can't find anytime he was named to be a replacement for a back-up for a pro-bowler. Perhaps, if they named replacements for replacements for back-ups for pro-bowlers, then he might get mentioned. Until that happens, Reese should be drafting Pugh's replacement this year.
I'm fine with a Rd. 1 OL so long as a player like Howard, Christian, Njoku, etc. isn't there. But I don't think it is necessary to go 1-2 with OL. If rd. 1 is OL, then rd. 3 would be more palatable. I'm not interested in the 4th-7th round OL picks. We have demonstrated repeatedly an inability to develop OL. I would rather they package those picks or a combination of them to move up in the second and third rounds to secure OL talent.
It's not about being on or off the OL train. It's about recognizing what positions are strong in the upcoming draft, and drafting to those strengths instead of trying to fill a need by reaching for an offensive lineman at the expense of a more highly skilled player at another position, especially in the 1st round.
In comment 13426413 Klaatu said:
Quote:
I'm wth you there. Just find it odd that everyone now is off the OL train.
It's not about being on or off the OL train. It's about recognizing what positions are strong in the upcoming draft, and drafting to those strengths instead of trying to fill a need by reaching for an offensive lineman at the expense of a more highly skilled player at another position, especially in the 1st round.
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I'm wth you there. Just find it odd that everyone now is off the OL train.
It's not about being on or off the OL train. It's about recognizing what positions are strong in the upcoming draft, and drafting to those strengths instead of trying to fill a need by reaching for an offensive lineman at the expense of a more highly skilled player at another position, especially in the 1st round.
Both sides of this debate are making assumptions based on the limited "data" we have on the prospects. The anti-OL side assumes that none of the OL are worth the 23rd pick, the pro-OL side assumes there are two or three. So we're arguing from different assumptions, which is useless.
Depending on how the players come off the board two weeks from now, we may or may not find out how the Giants viewed them. One thing I will say is that hopefully the pro-OL side is the side that's right and one of those OL is actually available when the Giants are on the clock. Because there is no position on the team more in need of a 1st round talent added to the mix than the OL.
p.s.--If the X position in the draft is deep and the Y position in the draft is shallow. And you have needs at both positions. When faced with the choice between two equally graded prospects in round one, which should you draft: the guy who plays X or the guy plays Y?
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But he isn't now, and hasn't been. If the plan is to overpay for him like we did for JPP and OV (who despite their contracts figure to need a draft pick to help them generate a pass rush...yikes), then I'm not on board with that either.
Bang for the buck.
He [Pugh] isn't expensive now? He is the very definition of overpaying/expensive. His salary this year is $8.8 million. He is more likely to miss games than to play 16. In his 4 years, he has played 55 games with an average of 14/yr. If he continues his inability to suit up for a full season and sticks to his average, then he'll be paid $628K per game.
BBI is always quick to say that he plays like a top 5 guard when he is healthy. But whenever the group is challenged to provide the rankings/grades, no one is able to back up their assertions. Some will say he plays at a pro-bowl caliber, but I can't find anytime he was named to be a replacement for a back-up for a pro-bowler. Perhaps, if they named replacements for replacements for back-ups for pro-bowlers, then he might get mentioned. Until that happens, Reese should be drafting Pugh's replacement this year.
Prior to this upcoming season his cap hit never exceeded $2.6 million. The front office probably should have done something with him by now: either extend him or trade him.
It's not about being "pro-OL" or "anti-OL." No one should be satisfied with the offensive linemen we have now. They've woefully underperformed for the past couple of years, and that's with the relatively recent additions of two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick. If the Giants have shown an inability to develop mid-to-late-round OL prospects, well, their track record with high draft choices to address the problem hasn't been a cause for celebration, either. In short, they need to draft smarter, and they need to improve their player development.
It's an inexact science.
Cowboys 2013 draft board - ( New Window )
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As I've said repeatedly when discussing this topic, if the Giants have a strong conviction about an offensive lineman who's available when they're up in the 1st round, I have absolutely no problem if they draft him. What I don't want them to do is reach for one at the expense of a more highly skilled prospect at another position. You can call that "The Pugh Effect."
There is no reason to believe Pugh was a reach. If you don't trust the Giants ability to judge OL talent, how about the Cowboys? They are widely considered to have the best OL in the NFL and Pugh was ranked #21 on their draft board.
It's an inexact science. Cowboys 2013 draft board - ( New Window )
Yeah. As a Guard. Besides, the vast majority of "gurus" had him pegged as a 2nd round pick (your own Drew Boylhart gave him a 3rd round grade).
As for the Cowboys, while Travis Frederick proved to be a very smart pick (much maligned at the time), Tyron Smith and Zach Martin were no-brainers, and La'El Collins was a special exception. They did strike gold with UDFA Ron Leary, just as we did years ago with Rich Seubert.
When people say its a weak OL class its because there is no top 10 type guy, and I don't think the depth is there. However the top guys are right there in our range. Since this matches our needs I am all for drafting one. We are getting a #23 type guy anyway, why not pick the biggest need area (its call creating tiers).
Are there any posters who have been opposed to Robinson because of his arrest but in favor of Cook? I haven't read anyone take that position. Some are enamored with Cook because he's arguably more talented than Robinson (to whatever degree you can compare across positions), and some are opposed to Robinson based on his own merit (comparisons to Flowers, in particular, will do that). But I have yet to see anyone prefer Cook over Robinson simply because of Robinson's arrest.
Seems to me you created a scenario that doesn't actually exist.
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I'm wth you there. Just find it odd that everyone now is off the OL train.
It's not about being on or off the OL train. It's about recognizing what positions are strong in the upcoming draft, and drafting to those strengths instead of trying to fill a need by reaching for an offensive lineman at the expense of a more highly skilled player at another position, especially in the 1st round.
I would make the case that it could be equally strategic to let those strong/deep positions come back to you later in the draft (where they will likely be the best value) and be very mindful of positional scarcity at the top of the draft. You can get a very good CB later in this draft; you can get a very good RB later in this draft. Chances are, if you want a decent OL, you might want to consider drafting one early since the depth is not there.
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In comment 13426407 ryanmkeane said:
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I'm wth you there. Just find it odd that everyone now is off the OL train.
It's not about being on or off the OL train. It's about recognizing what positions are strong in the upcoming draft, and drafting to those strengths instead of trying to fill a need by reaching for an offensive lineman at the expense of a more highly skilled player at another position, especially in the 1st round.
I would make the case that it could be equally strategic to let those strong/deep positions come back to you later in the draft (where they will likely be the best value) and be very mindful of positional scarcity at the top of the draft. You can get a very good CB later in this draft; you can get a very good RB later in this draft. Chances are, if you want a decent OL, you might want to consider drafting one early since the depth is not there.
On the other hand, I would rather not pass up the chance to draft a top-tier talent at a premium position - say CB or DE - for a "decent OL." As for the OL depth in the upcoming draft, while it's not great for OTs, it's not bad for OGs (and OG/RT types). The Giants need to do a better job of identifying OL talent, especially in the middle rounds, and developing that talent. What they don't need to do is throw good money after bad, so to speak, by reaching for O-Lineman early to fill needs.
I hope I'm wrong
The 2013 first round draft sucked as much as any first round could suck. The giants didn't reach for anything when they took Pugh at 19. He was one of the best picks from that first round. Take a look at the first rounders from 2013.
Flowers may likely prove you wrong as well. Pugh did from day one.
Bang for the buck.
My god you are such a heal on this topic. Two way DEs cost a lot of money. Go cheap on the 4-3 DE and your defense will blow bags of dick. Vernon and jpp are great DEs. They aren't bad at rushing the passer at all. They are good but in your world where you never admit being wrong they are the reason why the pass rush needs one more player. If the giants didn't have tuck in 07 that defense, with gifted DEs strahan and osi would in fact need another pass rusher.
Jpp and Vernon are two of the most important defenders on this team. Add to that. Christ.
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In comment 13426413 Klaatu said:
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In comment 13426407 ryanmkeane said:
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I'm wth you there. Just find it odd that everyone now is off the OL train.
It's not about being on or off the OL train. It's about recognizing what positions are strong in the upcoming draft, and drafting to those strengths instead of trying to fill a need by reaching for an offensive lineman at the expense of a more highly skilled player at another position, especially in the 1st round.
I would make the case that it could be equally strategic to let those strong/deep positions come back to you later in the draft (where they will likely be the best value) and be very mindful of positional scarcity at the top of the draft. You can get a very good CB later in this draft; you can get a very good RB later in this draft. Chances are, if you want a decent OL, you might want to consider drafting one early since the depth is not there.
On the other hand, I would rather not pass up the chance to draft a top-tier talent at a premium position - say CB or DE - for a "decent OL." As for the OL depth in the upcoming draft, while it's not great for OTs, it's not bad for OGs (and OG/RT types). The Giants need to do a better job of identifying OL talent, especially in the middle rounds, and developing that talent. What they don't need to do is throw good money after bad, so to speak, by reaching for O-Lineman early to fill needs.
I think we're just going to fundamentally disagree, and that's fine. I think it's better to chase scarcity early and depth later as long as the grades are relatively close. If you choose to take a CB or RB early, you could find repeated scenarios in subsequent rounds where another CB and/or RB is the BPA. And then you reach multiple times out of desire for roster construction consideration.
I'm not advocating for taking an OL in the first if the grade from the scouts doesn't warrant it; I'm just saying that if it's close, scarcity should factor in the same way that Giants have often said positional need does - as a tiebreaker.