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NFT: Why Phil Jackson needs to go...

trueblueinpw : 4/19/2017 8:07 am
Pretty scathing sendup of the Jackson NYK era.

"When asked at his end-of-year talk what he liked from KP this season, Jackson said, in part, that he was proud of a game in which Porzingis didn’t take a 3 because “they’re a cheap way to get points.” WHY DON’T YOU WANT YOUR TEAM GETTING CHEAP POINTS, JACKSON?"
Phil Jackson Has Run the Knicks Into the Ground - ( New Window )
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Not what he said  
nygiants16 : 4/19/2017 8:26 am : link
he said he wants kp to work on his inside game more because he rushes the 3 sometimes, he can get that shot any time he wants...he said it is a good tool but when he works inside he can be more dominant....

that is what he said, not what the dailynews is spinning
Jackson had a great coaching career  
joeinpa : 4/19/2017 8:38 am : link
His resume made him seem like a miracle worker. However his work with the Knicks has been anything but miracle like.

Increasingly it seems to me his success was predicated on going to the franchises that had the greatest players of that era. It would have been much more of a barometer for success had he stayed in Chicago after Jordan left and won more championships; Much like Red Auerbach did with the Celtics after the Russell era.
I said it when he signed: grat coach is no guarantee to become  
Victor in CT : 4/19/2017 8:44 am : link
a great exec. And to compound it, Jackson NEVER had to coach up a team from scratch. Bulls and Lakers were ready made to win. Zen Master my ass, he's just another full of shit ego maniac.
Phil was lucky  
spike : 4/19/2017 8:47 am : link
He had MJ Pippen Shaq and Kobe to "coach". All he had to do was manage their egos
I think getting rid of Phil  
Svengali : 4/19/2017 8:50 am : link
Would be a huge mistake. Starting over again would be a bad move. We have to have a coaching staff and management in place for some consistency or this is going to happen over and over. The fans want to fire everybody so hold on to somebody and build some kind of culture.
It's more than just walking into teams with some of the greatest  
PhiPsi125 : 4/19/2017 8:53 am : link
players to ever play the game in their prime. It's more than having teams with 2 to 3 HOF players in their prime surrounded by all stars. He had two players (MJ and Kobe) that were hard-nosed, almost bully-like, players that demanded perfection from the team. There aren many players like that anymore.
Its become pretty clear that this will end badly with Phil  
Stu11 : 4/19/2017 9:15 am : link
the sooner the better.
RE: Phil was lucky  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 9:17 am : link
In comment 13433881 spike said:
Quote:
He had MJ Pippen Shaq and Kobe to "coach". All he had to do was manage their egos


No shit a coach needs to have great players to win championships. However, there is more to the job than managing egos. For all of Phil's talk about 3 pointers, I've NEVER seen a team that spaced the floor as well as his Lakers and took advantage of Shaq's passing and guys like Rice, Horry, Fox, and Ariza to bang threes. The floor was so well spaced that when the double came and the ball was kicked out, it was nearly impossible for the defense to recover and get to the open man.
RE: Its become pretty clear that this will end badly with Phil  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 9:19 am : link
In comment 13433919 Stu11 said:
Quote:
the sooner the better.


I don't think that's clear at all. Add a good player in this lottery, remove the dead wood, and add another good player in the next lottery and the team could look a lot different in 15 months. I'm not advocating Phil get endless amount of time to turn this around, but I'm comfortable with seeing where we are next year at this time.
Jackson  
PaulN : 4/19/2017 9:34 am : link
Has been brutal no doubt, his problem is simple to see, his arrogance, he is committed to his legacy, not to helping the Knicks, he took Dolan's money and ran, anyone with a peanut for a brain can see this, it will hurt his legacy but in the end it made him a lot richer, as for Dolan, he is a Daddy's boy who is lost, he is a zero and I have no sympathy for him. The Knicks are screwed. There is no other words to say.
The perpetual rebuilding of the Knicks is just unbelievable...  
trueblueinpw : 4/19/2017 9:48 am : link
How many season do we have to wait for this team to be competitive? Every year its like, "well, we'll get a good lottery pick and then in two seasons we'll compete" or "we'll clear the bad contracts and then sign "big free agent" and we'll compete" or "we'll bring in this guy to fix the mess and then we'll compete". I watch teams like the Bulls, who dominated for years with MJ, then sucked, then reloaded, then were competitive, then sucked, then reloaded and were competitive. But the Knicks, they're just always sucking and reloading and then sucking and then reloading.

I didn't think signing Jackson made any sense. The most troubling thing going on now is that apparently KP isn't bought into whatever Jackson is selling. WTF? How many teams in the NBA have a player revolt? It just never ends with this franchise.
RE: I think getting rid of Phil  
Deej : 4/19/2017 9:52 am : link
In comment 13433884 Svengali said:
Quote:
Would be a huge mistake. Starting over again would be a bad move. We have to have a coaching staff and management in place for some consistency or this is going to happen over and over. The fans want to fire everybody so hold on to somebody and build some kind of culture.


But the culture that PHIL is building seems to be one of petty recriminations. A culture based on the personalities of the two heads of Knicksland -- Phil and Dolan -- is doomed to fail. They're two assholes. The culture in LA and CHI I think was more set by MJ and Kobe than Phil. Phil managed the stars, the stars managed everyone else.

Also, I think there is a lot to the premise of the Ringer piece that he cares more about proving that the Triangle is the key to basketball than he does seeing the Knicks win.
I can certainly see both sides of it,  
Keith : 4/19/2017 10:02 am : link
but I think he should be given 2 more years before any decision is made. Firing him now is not the right move, IMO.

First off, I thought his strength would be changing the culture and perception around the Knicks, but that's been his weakness. Somehow, he's made it worse which isn't easy to do.

Secondly, he def got lucky that we imploded as bad as we did. If we just missed the playoffs or just squeeked in, we'd be in a bad spot.

All that being said, the franchise is in the best position we've been in, in a long time. We have young players to build around. We have young players that can fill out a roster and grow into solid role players. We have a premium pick and our important future picks. Unlike GM's of the past, while going for a quick fix, he didn't mortgage the future and that's a plus.

I'm hoping that this is a learning experience and Phil will get better at his job, but when you hired him, he needs to be given the appropriate time to succeed.
As many things as Phil has done wrong  
Greg from LI : 4/19/2017 10:08 am : link
He's still got the Knicks in better long-term shape than they were when he was hired. Damning with faint praise, yes, but true.
Understandable Keith  
Deej : 4/19/2017 10:11 am : link
I dont advocate firing or retaining him. But I'll note a few counterpoints:

1. I dont think that when we hired him that anyone expected him to alienate our players or the league's biggest star. The meddling with the coaches is also hurting the team. He's behaving like an asshole, and the fact that he is the incumbent head BB man is not an excuse for that.

2. The notion that he needs time is severely undercut by the fact that he has not, to date, undertaken any sort of long term plan. Rather, in at least 2 of the 3 seasons he has sold the team to fans as intended to be competitive. If we are now in a real rebuild, it's a pivot by him that is basically forced by the failure so far and the fact that we cant pull top UFAs, it's not the long simmering plan.
doesn't matter  
giantfan2000 : 4/19/2017 10:12 am : link
it is Nolan that needs to sell the team

never going to win regardless of if jackson stays or goes
RE: RE: I think getting rid of Phil  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 10:14 am : link
In comment 13433973 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13433884 Svengali said:


Quote:


Would be a huge mistake. Starting over again would be a bad move. We have to have a coaching staff and management in place for some consistency or this is going to happen over and over. The fans want to fire everybody so hold on to somebody and build some kind of culture.



But the culture that PHIL is building seems to be one of petty recriminations. A culture based on the personalities of the two heads of Knicksland -- Phil and Dolan -- is doomed to fail. They're two assholes. The culture in LA and CHI I think was more set by MJ and Kobe than Phil. Phil managed the stars, the stars managed everyone else.

Also, I think there is a lot to the premise of the Ringer piece that he cares more about proving that the Triangle is the key to basketball than he does seeing the Knicks win.


The guy who wrote "The Letter" exposed himself as an asshole, yet he's now the owner of defending NBA Champions. Why? Because of luck. Even the Warriors got lucky with Curry dropping to the seventh pick. (I'm no drafting wizard, but I sure as fuck would've taken Curry ahead of Flynn and Rubio at the time.) Is Sam Presti the same genius if Greg Oden isn't the number 1 pick and Durant is? Yes, Presti has shown himself to be really good at the job in other drafts, but luck is a indisputable part of being good in the NBA. The Knicks haven't been lucky at all. I love KP... I'd rather have KAT.
RE: Understandable Keith  
Keith : 4/19/2017 10:21 am : link
In comment 13433998 Deej said:
Quote:
I dont advocate firing or retaining him. But I'll note a few counterpoints:

1. I dont think that when we hired him that anyone expected him to alienate our players or the league's biggest star. The meddling with the coaches is also hurting the team. He's behaving like an asshole, and the fact that he is the incumbent head BB man is not an excuse for that.

2. The notion that he needs time is severely undercut by the fact that he has not, to date, undertaken any sort of long term plan. Rather, in at least 2 of the 3 seasons he has sold the team to fans as intended to be competitive. If we are now in a real rebuild, it's a pivot by him that is basically forced by the failure so far and the fact that we cant pull top UFAs, it's not the long simmering plan.


1. He's always been the type of guy to use the media to get his point across and motivate certain players to change. It certainly backfired this time. All that said though, I think it was a calculated move to get Melo to want to leave. Regarding Lebron...Eff him and his soapbox. I think you can certainly make a fair case that he's been acting like an ahole and it hasn't worked.

2. True to a point. Yes, he's attempted to make the team competitive, but he's also done that with an eye on the future. So he's put himself in a position to be able to pivot to a total rebuild. Again, I'll bring up the past few GM's who have attempted to be competitive, but sold off our future to make that happen. So when it didnd't work, there was no ability to pivot to a rebuild, they could just dig the hole deeper.
He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
Elite Mobster #32 : 4/19/2017 10:24 am : link
He has alienated Carmelo rather than give him a better supporting case. Relatively wasted JR Smith and Shumpert.

He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
Elite Mobster #32 : 4/19/2017 10:24 am : link
He has alienated Carmelo rather than give him a better supporting case. Relatively wasted JR Smith and Shumpert.

Chandler was a shell of himself when we traded  
Keith : 4/19/2017 10:25 am : link
him. We couldn't give away JR Smith and it's not like Shump has progressed like he should(or I thought he would). Not many of these small moves have worked, but none of them were crippling to our future in any way. Once we get rid of Melo, Phil can build this team around his types of guys. No excuses now.
RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 10:30 am : link
In comment 13434026 Elite Mobster #32 said:
Quote:
He has alienated Carmelo rather than give him a better supporting case. Relatively wasted JR Smith and Shumpert.


Chandler quit and stole checks in 2013-2014. JR Smith was such a headache that the Knicks needed to pair him with Shumpert just to get rid of him (despite JR having a REASONABLE contract). While I hated taking back Calderon in the Chandler deal, I had and still have zero problem with these 3 players being shipped off.
funny thing is  
nygiants16 : 4/19/2017 10:31 am : link
for as bad as phil has been the knicks future is brighter than it has ever been..

and whoever said the knicks have been rebuilding for 20 years are talking out of their ass, every gm went for the quick fix, even the great donnie walsh who spilled his guts to the media about what he wanted to do at every second..

but i can see what type of thread this is going to be so you gentleman have fun and have a good day
RE: RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
Enzo : 4/19/2017 10:40 am : link
In comment 13434041 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434026 Elite Mobster #32 said:


Quote:


He has alienated Carmelo rather than give him a better supporting case. Relatively wasted JR Smith and Shumpert.




Chandler quit and stole checks in 2013-2014. JR Smith was such a headache that the Knicks needed to pair him with Shumpert just to get rid of him (despite JR having a REASONABLE contract). While I hated taking back Calderon in the Chandler deal, I had and still have zero problem with these 3 players being shipped off.

so it was smart to "sell low" on those guys? Ok, sure.
defending Phil is some  
Enzo : 4/19/2017 10:44 am : link
next level homerism. So much of what's gone on here (running his silly triangle clinics, undermining the coach, battling his star player through the media) simply does not happen with other teams. That press conference last week was a joke and just showed just how lost he is. I'm not sure I've ever seen such a stellar combination of arrogance and incompetence in one person before. I'm said it a bunch of times, Phil knows more about basketball than most people on the planet. He knows nothing about running an NBA front office and building a roster.
Shumpert sucks  
giantsfan44ab : 4/19/2017 10:45 am : link
What trade value did he have? Richard Jefferson is a more valuable player than shumpert. Just think about that.
RE: RE: RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 10:48 am : link
In comment 13434067 Enzo said:
Quote:


so it was smart to "sell low" on those guys? Ok, sure.


Keeping people around who're quitters and assholes isn't in the best interest of any organization either. JR Smith was NEVER going to improve his value in this setting because his entire issue was non-basketball related.
RE: funny thing is  
trueblueinpw : 4/19/2017 10:50 am : link
In comment 13434043 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
whoever said the knicks have been rebuilding for 20 years are talking out of their ass, every gm went for the quick fix, even the great donnie walsh who spilled his guts to the media about what he wanted to do at every second..


If we take out the Ewing years can you tell me when the Knicks haven't been rebuilding over the past 50 years? As far as I can tell, aside from the Ewing years, the Knicks haven't been a legitimate contender for an NBA title since the 70s. Maybe you're right and success is just around the corner but it's not like we haven't heard that before.
you can't defend the indefensible. Jackson has been a disaster. And  
Victor in CT : 4/19/2017 10:51 am : link
worse, he takes his 1 press conference of he year as an opportunity to absolve himself of any blame. Total asshole.
RE: RE: funny thing is  
nygiants16 : 4/19/2017 10:53 am : link
In comment 13434085 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
In comment 13434043 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


whoever said the knicks have been rebuilding for 20 years are talking out of their ass, every gm went for the quick fix, even the great donnie walsh who spilled his guts to the media about what he wanted to do at every second..




If we take out the Ewing years can you tell me when the Knicks haven't been rebuilding over the past 50 years? As far as I can tell, aside from the Ewing years, the Knicks haven't been a legitimate contender for an NBA title since the 70s. Maybe you're right and success is just around the corner but it's not like we haven't heard that before.


the definition of rebuilding is tearing it down building from scratch, when have the knicks ever done that?
I don't think Phil has been perfect  
Giant John : 4/19/2017 10:54 am : link
But I do feel the Knicks are in a better position now than anytime in the last 10 years. He inherited an absolute mess. No draft picks, cap hell and bad players. I though it would take 5 years to straighten out. Those problems have been resolved. we will be getting a good player this draft. I think things are looking better long term. I don't get all the BS.
RE: you can't defend the indefensible. Jackson has been a disaster. And  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 10:57 am : link
In comment 13434086 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
worse, he takes his 1 press conference of he year as an opportunity to absolve himself of any blame. Total asshole.


The difference between me and you is IDGAF about press conferences. A press conference has never won a championship in any sport. Draft picks, OTOH, win most of the NBA championships. This team has been almost completely lacking in picks during Phil's tenure. It would be one thing if it was HIS fault they didn't have draft picks, but it's not.

Literally not one person would say Phil's tenure has been "good". However, I'm willing to give him these 3 draft picks and see where we are in 12 months. I don't see how that's being a homer unless you're one of these people who think Phil is the root cause of all evil.
I'll give him one more summer.  
bceagle05 : 4/19/2017 11:01 am : link
Circumstances (cap/roster/draft picks) didn't allow for a total rebuild, so he hitched his wagon to Carmelo and hoped for the best. It's pretty obvious he regrets doing that. If all he does is trade/release Melo, let Rose walk, draft a good prospect in the top 10, and find a solid role player with one of those second rounders, it will have been a highly productive offseason. I know he's been a disaster so far, but he's an intelligent human being - he HAS to see the draft is the only way out of this abyss.
RE: RE: funny thing is  
Keith : 4/19/2017 11:11 am : link
In comment 13434085 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
In comment 13434043 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


whoever said the knicks have been rebuilding for 20 years are talking out of their ass, every gm went for the quick fix, even the great donnie walsh who spilled his guts to the media about what he wanted to do at every second..




If we take out the Ewing years can you tell me when the Knicks haven't been rebuilding over the past 50 years? As far as I can tell, aside from the Ewing years, the Knicks haven't been a legitimate contender for an NBA title since the 70s. Maybe you're right and success is just around the corner but it's not like we haven't heard that before.


I don't think you know what rebuilding is. The Knicks rebuilt once when Walsh took over. At no fault of his, he didn't rebuild the right way. He sold off everything and mortgaged the future to try and rebuild through FA, but that obviously didn't work. Other than that, we haven't been rebuilding at all before Phil. We've been trying for the quick fix, retool which has been a disaster.
This offseason is key for me in regards to judging Phil.  
Keith : 4/19/2017 11:12 am : link
If he goes on a spending spree and gives guys long term deals, then I've seen enough. If he makes smart decisions with the space and adds players that we may be able to flip or could be key role players in a few years, then I'm on board.
RE: RE: RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
Deej : 4/19/2017 11:14 am : link
In comment 13434067 Enzo said:
Quote:

so it was smart to "sell low" on those guys? Ok, sure.


+1. Knicks have absolutely the most short-sighted fans. All players are assessed based on what they are this very moment. People declare with certainty what rookies will become. Guys who are not playing well suck and should be dumped ASAP.

TC's last year here he was a .143 WS48 player. So significantly better than average starter. The next season he was back over .200. Basically, should have been an all star (except you dont get allstar nods for defense).
I think Summer 2015 was a quasi-rebuild  
Deej : 4/19/2017 11:19 am : link
I dont think you can rebuild in one offseason unless you're trading off a lot of vets. But that offseason Phil signed Rolo to a nice contract, and then made a bunch of small acquisitions to preserve cap space and maybe get some trade pieces (didnt work out that way though). I didnt get the sense that the Summer of 2015 was about being terribly competitive for the 2015-16 season. Whereas the Noah and Rose deals in 2016-17 were just nonsense, win now moves.
Yeah he really hit the panic button last summer. It was odd.  
bceagle05 : 4/19/2017 11:22 am : link
Luckily it only cost us a couple of draft slots in the lottery, but the domino effect of losing Lopez and signing Noah turned out to be a huge negative.
Panic button?  
Keith : 4/19/2017 11:26 am : link
He made calculated, somewhat low risk moves that didn't hurt the ability to pivot into a look at the future and rebuild.

The Rose deal played out as the worst case scenario. That scenario is creating cap space and losing Lopez and Grant which is no big deal at all. Certainly not a panic move.

Signing Lee was a solid move. He's got a fair deal and should be an asset to the organization. He fit a need, certainly not a panic move.

Signing Noah was the only move that could be considered a panic move. Phil believed that he was the missing piece and took a big chance. I was ok with signing Noah, just not more than 2 years. You can certainly make the case that this was a panic move.

All in all, he didn't panic last offseason. He made calculated risk moves that didn't all work out, but didn't hurt the future of this team either.
RE: RE: RE: RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 11:29 am : link
In comment 13434123 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13434067 Enzo said:


Quote:



so it was smart to "sell low" on those guys? Ok, sure.



+1. Knicks have absolutely the most short-sighted fans. All players are assessed based on what they are this very moment. People declare with certainty what rookies will become. Guys who are not playing well suck and should be dumped ASAP.

TC's last year here he was a .143 WS48 player. So significantly better than average starter. The next season he was back over .200. Basically, should have been an all star (except you dont get allstar nods for defense).


There's a difference between a guy not playing well because he suffered a severe or nagging injury and a guy who's cashing checks and not giving requisite effort. It's one thing if a guy who normally shoots well has an off year shooting the ball. It's another when a guy whose game is so dependent on effort clearly and obviously rolled that effort back. Why would anyone expect someone who does something like that to improve in the same setting the next year? Why would you want to keep someone around who did something like that?

You might think Chandler's effort wasn't an issue that year. I did. Phil did. Tyson has made comments in reference to how Phil viewed him on the floor and in the locker room.
Why would someone expect him to give more effort?  
giantsfan44ab : 4/19/2017 11:31 am : link
Maybe going back to the team where he was the 2nd most important player in a championship under a top 3 coach would do it?
There's been some solid defensive players  
Keith : 4/19/2017 11:34 am : link
on this team over the past few years that just didn't look like the same players on this squad. What do you attribute that to? Coaching? Melo? Circumstance? It's just weird.
RE: RE: RE: RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
Enzo : 4/19/2017 11:49 am : link
In comment 13434081 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434067 Enzo said:


Quote:




so it was smart to "sell low" on those guys? Ok, sure.



Keeping people around who're quitters and assholes isn't in the best interest of any organization either. JR Smith was NEVER going to improve his value in this setting because his entire issue was non-basketball related.

JR was 6th man of the year for a division winner. A little over a year later he needs to be moved at all costs? That's just dumb short-sighted nonsense.
RE: Yeah he really hit the panic button last summer. It was odd.  
Enzo : 4/19/2017 11:57 am : link
In comment 13434138 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
Luckily it only cost us a couple of draft slots in the lottery, but the domino effect of losing Lopez and signing Noah turned out to be a huge negative.

Agree. Phil basically admitted the Rose trade was in part a result of his exit meeting with Melo last year where Melo stated his case for a dynamic PG. So out goes a decent PG in Grant and a solid/reliable center in Lopez and in comes Rose/Noah. Funny how a year later Phil has gone from making big moves like that to appease Melo to now trying forcing him out the door. Melo is the same player today that he was in that meeting last year. In other words, Phil has no plan.
RE: RE: you can't defend the indefensible. Jackson has been a disaster. And  
Victor in CT : 4/19/2017 12:02 pm : link
In comment 13434098 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 13434086 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


worse, he takes his 1 press conference of he year as an opportunity to absolve himself of any blame. Total asshole.



The difference between me and you is IDGAF about press conferences. A press conference has never won a championship in any sport. Draft picks, OTOH, win most of the NBA championships. This team has been almost completely lacking in picks during Phil's tenure. It would be one thing if it was HIS fault they didn't have draft picks, but it's not.

Literally not one person would say Phil's tenure has been "good". However, I'm willing to give him these 3 draft picks and see where we are in 12 months. I don't see how that's being a homer unless you're one of these people who think Phil is the root cause of all evil.


far from the only difference my friend. 3 years, 3 coaches, 166 losses, underming the coach (except for his butt boy Rambis), complete organizational diysfunction, signing Melo with a no move clause, then trashing him on social media, bad signings, fleeced on trades, but yeah, you're not a homer, just an idiot.
RE: RE: RE: you can't defend the indefensible. Jackson has been a disaster. And  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 12:03 pm : link
In comment 13434189 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13434098 shockeyisthebest8056 said:


Quote:


In comment 13434086 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


worse, he takes his 1 press conference of he year as an opportunity to absolve himself of any blame. Total asshole.



The difference between me and you is IDGAF about press conferences. A press conference has never won a championship in any sport. Draft picks, OTOH, win most of the NBA championships. This team has been almost completely lacking in picks during Phil's tenure. It would be one thing if it was HIS fault they didn't have draft picks, but it's not.

Literally not one person would say Phil's tenure has been "good". However, I'm willing to give him these 3 draft picks and see where we are in 12 months. I don't see how that's being a homer unless you're one of these people who think Phil is the root cause of all evil.



far from the only difference my friend. 3 years, 3 coaches, 166 losses, underming the coach (except for his butt boy Rambis), complete organizational diysfunction, signing Melo with a no move clause, then trashing him on social media, bad signings, fleeced on trades, but yeah, you're not a homer, just an idiot.


Is that necessary? You're incapable of disagreeing with someone without name-calling?
Rebuild, restock, whatever...  
trueblueinpw : 4/19/2017 12:09 pm : link
Look, I don't know how to run a basketball team and I fully admit that I don't follow the Rangers or the Knicks like I did when I was a younger man. Maybe I don't what rebuilding is. Ok. But this idea that Phil Jackson and DW were the only guys to try to "rebuild" the Knicks seems like a bit of a snipe hunt to me. We can quibble about "rebuilding" or fixing on the fly or whatever. The bottom line is that the Knicks haven't been a serious contender for an NBA title for the better part of 50 years. And based on what I see, again, as a casual fan, it doesn't look to me like Phil Jackson is turning the Knicks into a great organization. The players are said to be "revolting", KP is rumored to be disheartened, the coach sucks, the team sucks, Jackson seems to have tipped his hand regarding Melo, after a bizarre media campaign against him during the season, Oakley was dragged out of MSG, Jimmy D is yelling at fans in the street, I mean, it's all in the article. This is rebuilding?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: He traded a solid Center in Tyson Chandler  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/19/2017 12:14 pm : link
In comment 13434170 Enzo said:
Quote:


JR was 6th man of the year for a division winner. A little over a year later he needs to be moved at all costs? That's just dumb short-sighted nonsense.


Your first sentence didn't mean anything anyore... it would've been great if it did. They had to give the Cavs someone else in order to take JR off of their hands. That's how non-existent the market was for JR Smith. JR Smith got fined and benched, yet his behavior hadn't changed.

I generally agree that you don't want to trade a player when their value is at it's lowest. But the problem becomes what is the expectation of a guy raising his value and will it be at the expense of keeping him around the organization longer? It think the argument for letting Chandler stick around and raise his value is stronger than it was with JR Smith.
The point is  
Deej : 4/19/2017 12:17 pm : link
that the market for JR Smith was that low at that fixed point in time. However, they could have waited half a season or a season and tried trading him again, or righting his ship.

Knicks constantly trade guys at the bottom of their value, attaching assets to guys who could be assets themselves given a little time.
As I always say Phil was brought in here for one reason  
Stu11 : 4/19/2017 1:41 pm : link
to give the franchise credibility. 3 years later we have gone from the 2nd or 3rd biggest joke to the absolute laughing stock of the league. The Sacramento Kings get more respect than us. let that sink in for a second. The Porzingis pick was superb. Keeping all of our future 31's? you get credit for that? seriously? My pet Chimpanzee can accomplish that. It's time to get a solid young basketball mind in here that knows how to build a franchise in 2017. Not someone who can coach teams with some of the greatest NBA players to walk the earth to championships.
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