Yeah, I think they missed the boat on Turner. And I will fully say, if Turner were never let go, he would have never been more than a super sub for the Mets. I don't think he ever would have approached what he became had he reamained a Met.
Turner wasn't let go because the team didn't realize or internally scout the "talent" and misjudged it. He wasn't let go to save money. He was let go for other reasons. And the front office badly misjudged the direction hitters were about to embark on.
Dom graduates I'm not even sure who the Mets top 3 prospects are. (Not including Szapucki who will miss 2018) I guess Gimenez, Peterson and one of Nido/Lindsay (disappointing year)/Dunn (awful year). Yikes.
or should be, and Flores is a lot more likable to me (personally) than Turner - maybe because Flores is home grown and I always appreciate Mets prospects who succeed more than castaways.
for whatever reason, like I said irrational or whatever, every time I saw Turner up I felt like it would be an out, a GIDP, some unuseful rally killing at bat and he was nothing special in the field.
The losses continue to pile up in a bad year but they keep trotting out these old guys. Put the young kids in and if you lose more- great you get better picks.
Would be nice to see this FO make a deal similar to the Gyorko/Jay swap. The Cardinals ended up with an above average regular coming off a down period. Is that asking too much from this FO?
Would be nice to see this FO make a deal similar to the Gyorko/Jay swap. The Cardinals ended up with an above average regular coming off a down period. Is that asking too much from this FO?
Turner wasn't let go because the team didn't realize or internally scout the "talent" and misjudged it. He wasn't let go to save money. He was let go for other reasons. And the front office badly misjudged the direction hitters were about to embark on.
That last sentence seems to be the key. There have been many arguments about this roster over the past 2 years, sometimes when the record was good and sometimes bad, around a core theme of over-reliance on the home run. When they got the chance to adjust the past 2 offseasons they doubled down with more of the same. Like you said, good news is that this offseason they have flexibility to make long overdue changes. Are they capable/creative enough to do so successfully?
Sadly, I don't think the answer is yes anymore. Last offseason was supposed to be the offseason they focused on getting more athletic, more well rounded players. And they not only didn't, but to use your word - doubled down.
The losses continue to pile up in a bad year but they keep trotting out these old guys. Put the young kids in and if you lose more- great you get better picks.
Come on. It is so painfully obvious why the youngsters aren't playing. Yet.
of the starting pitching my two biggest concerns coming in.
Good to see Darren O'Day on here, hated when the Mets let him go (for no good reason), and good to see Clippard, Benoit, and some other options discussed for then this off-season. but bad to see how bad Smoker and Salas have been.
Quote:
BIG APPLE METS ⚾️ @BigAppleNYM 2m2 minutes ago
Mets have 2 RPs that are the top 4 worst.
They've pitched 79.2 innings already.
Maybe 2018 we open the pocketbook to get real MLB RPs.
#Mets
not that ERA is a great way to measure RP's, normally because it's too skewed positively in their favor since they can come in with men on base, allow them to score, and not have it impact their ERA.
I saw Murphy as a brain dead baserunner, a poor fielder, and a guy who had a great hot streak in the playoffs.
I was also bothered by Turners extremely odd looks. He reminded me so much of the Caveman in the Geico commercial. I never thought he would amount to anything more than a utility guy.
The point here though is that I have never worked in any capacity in professional baseball, so I'm not really accountable for my misjudgment of these guys.The Mets FO, full of highly paid, experienced executives is or should be accountable.
...he doesn't want to pitch if he gets a pimple on his arm and falls apart on the mound anytime adversity pops up. He just might not amount to anything.
I lay part of the blame for Turner and Murphy squarely at Jeff Wilpon's feet. Didn't Jeffy comment about Ginger's grooming at one point ?? I don't care if Turner looked like Tarzan -- he hit at every level in the minors. You can't find a place for a guy like that on your team ??
And Murph's disagreement about the "gay Lifestyle" must have got Jeffy's knickers in a twist. I would expect nothing less from a devout Christian like Murph. But he was Banished from the kingdom for those few comments.
There was no outcry when Turner left (I don't think)
As for Murphy, I admit I was one Mets fan who was wrong about him.
But there are a couple true statements about him at one point in time. He was always a very good hitter without a position. He was always an adventure in the field while here, and while he had a flair for pulling off a difficult dramatic play, he would often boot the easy ones and seemed to lack good instincts. I agreed with Gary Cohen during his now infamous "net negative" interview with Joe and Evan during 2015 postseason. I think many thought they were watching an ok player on a fun and magical postseason ride.
In hindsight, as it turned out, it seems that Kevin Long turned Murphy into an impact offensive player and we were watching the very beginning of it that postseason.
That it turned out to be the Nationals who lucked into him, is now a part of the typical Mets tortured history. Lets not forget that Murphy was basically the Nats last option for 2b that offseason. If Murphy was picked up by Cleveland (for argument's sake) we are all sitting here a little less tore up by letting him go.
RE: I had no issue getting rid of Murphy and Turner
I saw Murphy as a brain dead baserunner, a poor fielder, and a guy who had a great hot streak in the playoffs.
I was also bothered by Turners extremely odd looks. He reminded me so much of the Caveman in the Geico commercial. I never thought he would amount to anything more than a utility guy.
The point here though is that I have never worked in any capacity in professional baseball, so I'm not really accountable for my misjudgment of these guys.The Mets FO, full of highly paid, experienced executives is or should be accountable.
If you don't have the knowledge base you can only give your opinion as an opinion. Some people on this board were living on a make believe planet where they knew better then Mets management or anyone else and threw all kinds of meaningless stats to back it up. An look 3 years later both those players elevated their play and have driven their teams to the postseason playoff birth.
Is the incredible talent they have amassed behind the scenes. Up and down the franchise it's stacked with incredible people. The way it was supposed to be done here
He was always described to me as light-hitting, slick fielding, but in AA as a 22-year old (so not old for the league he's batting .292 with a .792 OPS so no power, but he's got a nice .374 OBP with 50 BB to 46K's.
seems the bat, while not ideal without any power, is better than from what I'd read.
Can he be a major league regular? 2B? He doesn't seem to have any speed either, so without any speed or power and not a huge hit profile, seems dismal, but getting on base and not striking out are important too.
He was always described to me as light-hitting, slick fielding, but in AA as a 22-year old (so not old for the league he's batting .292 with a .792 OPS so no power, but he's got a nice .374 OBP with 50 BB to 46K's.
seems the bat, while not ideal without any power, is better than from what I'd read.
Can he be a major league regular? 2B? He doesn't seem to have any speed either, so without any speed or power and not a huge hit profile, seems dismal, but getting on base and not striking out are important too.
Backup MI. Not enough bat to be a regular at 2b. That has become a major offensive position and given the fact the Mets don't figure to have plus offense at 3b either it's a rough profile. No speed, no power. Just very hard to point out "plus" guys at 2b with that profile ie guys you want starting.
104 wRC+, .335 wOBA that's good for 5th in both categories on his own team... a really bad team no less. Gives you an idea how bad David Thompson has been... a 3b hitting worse than Guillorme, Thompson is a full year older.
Lower minors that can be impact players that we can get excited about? Someone mentioned that in a couple of years their farm system would be top 10 (I believe ). Their system is so bad right now it's hard to imagine that can/will be the case.
Lower minors that can be impact players that we can get excited about? Someone mentioned that in a couple of years their farm system would be top 10 (I believe ). Their system is so bad right now it's hard to imagine that can/will be the case.
Highest upside are guys like
Dunn (awful season)
Lindsay (disappointing season)
Vientos (very far away)
Gimenez
Szapucki (will miss 2018)
Mauricio (very far away)
I believe Shecky's top 10 comment was at least in part due to picking high in the draft this upcoming season. They are not particularly strong with low level talent either.
and Bashlor have flashed out of the pen. Should be tough calls for the 40 man/Rule 5. I think both are on the level of the guys they got back at the deadline.
see no reason to have confidence in Harvey or Wheeler being any better or more reliable in 2018.
Wheeler has never really been good to begin with so agree with you there.
I think a case can be made for Harvey to rebound and that his stuff might regain a bit more bite being another year removed from an extremely major surgery. At least we'll get a chance to see how Harvey looks for the last 5-6 weeks of the season.
see no reason to have confidence in Harvey or Wheeler being any better or more reliable in 2018.
Wheeler has never really been good to begin with so agree with you there.
I think a case can be made for Harvey to rebound and that his stuff might regain a bit more bite being another year removed from an extremely major surgery. At least we'll get a chance to see how Harvey looks for the last 5-6 weeks of the season.
I'm not saying it's impossible they pitch better in 2018. I'm just saying I don't see any reason to be "confident" of this fact. Both extremely injury prone and as you said in Wheeler's case he's actually never been particularly great. Great pure stuff maybe. Your Harvey "theory"/feeling makes sense and certainly is possible but would anyone confidently pencil in either of these 2 for 175+ strong innings next season?
a limited track record but the two highest profile TOS guys in 2017 did not fare well. Hughes/Harvey. Karns and Thornburg will try and come back from it in 2018
a limited track record but the two highest profile TOS guys in 2017 did not fare well. Hughes/Harvey. Karns and Thornburg will try and come back from it in 2018
and did either of them have TJS too?
Not saying the two are in any way related, but just curious.
a limited track record but the two highest profile TOS guys in 2017 did not fare well. Hughes/Harvey. Karns and Thornburg will try and come back from it in 2018
and did either of them have TJS too?
Not saying the two are in any way related, but just curious.
can't be "confident" in Harvey for 2018 (absent a very promising end to this season) but I guess my case is at least enough not to write him off yet.
TJ and TOS is a really tough combination for sure but the optimist would say that (i) Harvey recovered 100% from the TJ given his dominance in 2015 and (2) that he's had TOS at a young enough age, and after the procedure has had some refinement, that his prognosis should be better than the very small sample size of blah results that we've seen.
Harvey's last 6 weeks will have a big impact on the Mets 2018 outlook IMO. Rosario/Smith more important long term, but for 2018 alone, Harvey is the highest variance player on the team (with Cespedes being second).
If Harvey could get past the initial shock of being asked
I was thinking Thor would be the better candidate, if you believe his velocity makes him more injury prone and he's a ticking time bomb, wouldn't closer, like Chapman for example, be better for him?
I don't think Harvey (2017 version) misses enough bats.
for whatever reason, like I said irrational or whatever, every time I saw Turner up I felt like it would be an out, a GIDP, some unuseful rally killing at bat and he was nothing special in the field.
Personally I loved both Murphy and Turner and it was even more a kick in the balls how the Mets let money get in the way on Ben Zorbrist.
Now I have to wonder if we see Duda go on and become a 40 HR guy.
Ummmm. Yes
Grandal- Padres
Alex Wood- Braves
Turner- Mets
Taylor- Seattle
Forsythe-Tampa
Hill- Red Sox
McCarthy- Yankees
Hernandez- Marlins
That last sentence seems to be the key. There have been many arguments about this roster over the past 2 years, sometimes when the record was good and sometimes bad, around a core theme of over-reliance on the home run. When they got the chance to adjust the past 2 offseasons they doubled down with more of the same. Like you said, good news is that this offseason they have flexibility to make long overdue changes. Are they capable/creative enough to do so successfully?
Come on. It is so painfully obvious why the youngsters aren't playing. Yet.
Good to see Darren O'Day on here, hated when the Mets let him go (for no good reason), and good to see Clippard, Benoit, and some other options discussed for then this off-season. but bad to see how bad Smoker and Salas have been.
Mets have 2 RPs that are the top 4 worst.
They've pitched 79.2 innings already.
Maybe 2018 we open the pocketbook to get real MLB RPs.
#Mets
not that ERA is a great way to measure RP's, normally because it's too skewed positively in their favor since they can come in with men on base, allow them to score, and not have it impact their ERA.
I was also bothered by Turners extremely odd looks. He reminded me so much of the Caveman in the Geico commercial. I never thought he would amount to anything more than a utility guy.
The point here though is that I have never worked in any capacity in professional baseball, so I'm not really accountable for my misjudgment of these guys.The Mets FO, full of highly paid, experienced executives is or should be accountable.
And Murph's disagreement about the "gay Lifestyle" must have got Jeffy's knickers in a twist. I would expect nothing less from a devout Christian like Murph. But he was Banished from the kingdom for those few comments.
But there are a couple true statements about him at one point in time. He was always a very good hitter without a position. He was always an adventure in the field while here, and while he had a flair for pulling off a difficult dramatic play, he would often boot the easy ones and seemed to lack good instincts. I agreed with Gary Cohen during his now infamous "net negative" interview with Joe and Evan during 2015 postseason. I think many thought they were watching an ok player on a fun and magical postseason ride.
In hindsight, as it turned out, it seems that Kevin Long turned Murphy into an impact offensive player and we were watching the very beginning of it that postseason.
That it turned out to be the Nationals who lucked into him, is now a part of the typical Mets tortured history. Lets not forget that Murphy was basically the Nats last option for 2b that offseason. If Murphy was picked up by Cleveland (for argument's sake) we are all sitting here a little less tore up by letting him go.
I was also bothered by Turners extremely odd looks. He reminded me so much of the Caveman in the Geico commercial. I never thought he would amount to anything more than a utility guy.
The point here though is that I have never worked in any capacity in professional baseball, so I'm not really accountable for my misjudgment of these guys.The Mets FO, full of highly paid, experienced executives is or should be accountable.
If you don't have the knowledge base you can only give your opinion as an opinion. Some people on this board were living on a make believe planet where they knew better then Mets management or anyone else and threw all kinds of meaningless stats to back it up. An look 3 years later both those players elevated their play and have driven their teams to the postseason playoff birth.
Noah Syndergaard, aiming for September return, says body has never felt better http://dlvr.it/PcSDh1
The disadvantage goes beyond the playoffs and NL teams not typically having prototypical DHs, it's roster building too.
.@stluciemets 1B Peter Alonso has been named Florida State League Player of the Month for July. #mets
The disadvantage goes beyond the playoffs and NL teams not typically having prototypical DHs, it's roster building too.
Quote:
Michael BaronVerified account @michaelgbaron 1m1 minute ago
.@stluciemets 1B Peter Alonso has been named Florida State League Player of the Month for July. #mets
Not very good...
He was always described to me as light-hitting, slick fielding, but in AA as a 22-year old (so not old for the league he's batting .292 with a .792 OPS so no power, but he's got a nice .374 OBP with 50 BB to 46K's.
seems the bat, while not ideal without any power, is better than from what I'd read.
Can he be a major league regular? 2B? He doesn't seem to have any speed either, so without any speed or power and not a huge hit profile, seems dismal, but getting on base and not striking out are important too.
He was always described to me as light-hitting, slick fielding, but in AA as a 22-year old (so not old for the league he's batting .292 with a .792 OPS so no power, but he's got a nice .374 OBP with 50 BB to 46K's.
seems the bat, while not ideal without any power, is better than from what I'd read.
Can he be a major league regular? 2B? He doesn't seem to have any speed either, so without any speed or power and not a huge hit profile, seems dismal, but getting on base and not striking out are important too.
Backup MI. Not enough bat to be a regular at 2b. That has become a major offensive position and given the fact the Mets don't figure to have plus offense at 3b either it's a rough profile. No speed, no power. Just very hard to point out "plus" guys at 2b with that profile ie guys you want starting.
104 wRC+, .335 wOBA that's good for 5th in both categories on his own team... a really bad team no less. Gives you an idea how bad David Thompson has been... a 3b hitting worse than Guillorme, Thompson is a full year older.
Highest upside are guys like
Dunn (awful season)
Lindsay (disappointing season)
Vientos (very far away)
Gimenez
Szapucki (will miss 2018)
Mauricio (very far away)
I believe Shecky's top 10 comment was at least in part due to picking high in the draft this upcoming season. They are not particularly strong with low level talent either.
Only guy other than Smith in the minors I find interesting is Gimenez.
Szapucki TJS
the disappointments of Dunn and Lindsay
the emergence of potential like Humphreys and then yep you guessed it, injured.
I was looking forward to Merandy Gonzalez and then he's inexplicably dealt for a run of the mill to bad bullpen arm.
Nothing worse than being a bottom 5 team with a bottom 5 farm system. Things sure changed quickly for the Mets.
Of course most of the major league failure can be traced to injury which you hope doesn't repeat itself, but like Red in Shawshank Redemption said
let's "hope" Andy was right and not Red about hope.
Rosario
Cespedes
Smith
Syndergaard
DeGrom
Is not bad
Especially with a plethora of high upside players coming off injury and a lot of cash to spend.
I can't imagine Matz, Wheeler, Harvey, Gsvllman performing as badly
Wheeler has never really been good to begin with so agree with you there.
I think a case can be made for Harvey to rebound and that his stuff might regain a bit more bite being another year removed from an extremely major surgery. At least we'll get a chance to see how Harvey looks for the last 5-6 weeks of the season.
Quote:
see no reason to have confidence in Harvey or Wheeler being any better or more reliable in 2018.
Wheeler has never really been good to begin with so agree with you there.
I think a case can be made for Harvey to rebound and that his stuff might regain a bit more bite being another year removed from an extremely major surgery. At least we'll get a chance to see how Harvey looks for the last 5-6 weeks of the season.
I'm not saying it's impossible they pitch better in 2018. I'm just saying I don't see any reason to be "confident" of this fact. Both extremely injury prone and as you said in Wheeler's case he's actually never been particularly great. Great pure stuff maybe. Your Harvey "theory"/feeling makes sense and certainly is possible but would anyone confidently pencil in either of these 2 for 175+ strong innings next season?
Not to mention his other malady's like his urinary tract infection or whatever it was that made headlines.
Harvey has to be the poster boy of the 2014 - 2017 Mets, such hope to such despair so quickly.
and did either of them have TJS too?
Not saying the two are in any way related, but just curious.
Quote:
a limited track record but the two highest profile TOS guys in 2017 did not fare well. Hughes/Harvey. Karns and Thornburg will try and come back from it in 2018
and did either of them have TJS too?
Not saying the two are in any way related, but just curious.
I don't believe either has had TJ previously.
TJ and TOS is a really tough combination for sure but the optimist would say that (i) Harvey recovered 100% from the TJ given his dominance in 2015 and (2) that he's had TOS at a young enough age, and after the procedure has had some refinement, that his prognosis should be better than the very small sample size of blah results that we've seen.
Harvey's last 6 weeks will have a big impact on the Mets 2018 outlook IMO. Rosario/Smith more important long term, but for 2018 alone, Harvey is the highest variance player on the team (with Cespedes being second).
I was thinking Thor would be the better candidate, if you believe his velocity makes him more injury prone and he's a ticking time bomb, wouldn't closer, like Chapman for example, be better for him?
I don't think Harvey (2017 version) misses enough bats.
Link - ( New Window )
One of my favorite times of the year, even if it's only regionals.
Love watching kids. Playing a kids game. And having fun, like kids.
I saw this earlier if there's a more on cue broadcast of a LLWS at-bat I haven't heard it.