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NFT: Can't get rid of Matz quick enough

brunswick : 8/6/2017 9:02 pm
Brutal. We praise Warthen too much. Look at his overall work with some of these guys...not good
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It's amazing how quickly the Mets went from a future dynasty  
Vanzetti : 8/6/2017 9:08 pm : link
to the laughingstock of baseball

and it's fitting that Justin Turner stole two bases on the awful TDA and then hit a HR after Seager got on base on a ball that a little leaguer would have fielded



not sure whats wrong with him  
spike : 8/6/2017 9:25 pm : link
but something is. When Harvey and Syndergaard return, time to shut down matz
He's getting a lot like Niese  
Rflairr : 8/6/2017 9:56 pm : link
If any adversity hits, he just falls apart. I think an entirely new coaching staff is in order for this team
Holy over reaction  
ZGiants98 : 8/6/2017 9:56 pm : link
LOL.
It may be an over reaction  
Stufftherun : 8/6/2017 10:01 pm : link
but he's been beyond brutal.
The Dodgers are an absolute juggernaut this year  
ZGiants98 : 8/6/2017 10:02 pm : link
and have been whipping our ass all year. They have to be the favorite to win the World Series at this point. We have one hit tonight. Why are you people torturing yourselves? I actually consider 5 runs over 6 innings pretty good considering how screwed up Matz has been lately.

His velocity and stuff are still there. Zero reason to shut him down. He needs innings and to work through this.
Young pitcher coming off major injury  
MetsAreBack : 8/6/2017 10:04 pm : link
Struggles. Shocking turn of events!

Glad the OP is not in charge of this team. Matz ... will be fine.
This may turn out as poorly as the "TRAID DEGROM" thread.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/6/2017 10:04 pm : link
.
RE: It may be an over reaction  
ZGiants98 : 8/6/2017 10:06 pm : link
In comment 13551113 Stufftherun said:
Quote:
but he's been beyond brutal.


It's an awful stretch... sure. Syndergaard went through an awful stretch in the middle of the season last year and everyone was ready to crucify him. deGrom went through a stretch where he got tattooed earlier this year and people were screaming to trade him while he still had value.

At least with Matz, we are no longer competing for anything. He'll figure it out as good players always do.
RE: This may turn out as poorly as the  
ZGiants98 : 8/6/2017 10:07 pm : link
In comment 13551124 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
.


Exactly what I just thought of. lol
RE: The Dodgers are an absolute juggernaut this year  
Stufftherun : 8/6/2017 10:41 pm : link
In comment 13551117 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
and have been whipping our ass all year. They have to be the favorite to win the World Series at this point. We have one hit tonight. Why are you people torturing yourselves? I actually consider 5 runs over 6 innings pretty good considering how screwed up Matz has been lately.

His velocity and stuff are still there. Zero reason to shut him down. He needs innings and to work through this.


He's clearly had control and location issues but if you're lauding his 93 MPH fastball, I'd say think twice about that.
RE: RE: The Dodgers are an absolute juggernaut this year  
ZGiants98 : 8/6/2017 10:56 pm : link
In comment 13551165 Stufftherun said:
Quote:
In comment 13551117 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


and have been whipping our ass all year. They have to be the favorite to win the World Series at this point. We have one hit tonight. Why are you people torturing yourselves? I actually consider 5 runs over 6 innings pretty good considering how screwed up Matz has been lately.

His velocity and stuff are still there. Zero reason to shut him down. He needs innings and to work through this.



He's clearly had control and location issues but if you're lauding his 93 MPH fastball, I'd say think twice about that.


"Lauding it??" lol. I've seen him at as high as 96 mph over his last few starts and Ive seen him throw a nice curve and a slider. He never threw as hard as a deGrom or Thor.
Dodgers look like the best team assembled since the 1998 Yankees  
dpinzow : 8/6/2017 11:16 pm : link
so can't take much from how the Mets played against them. However the Mets have to be a playoff team next year or the entire stretch with this young pitching core might be wasted
Good news  
Shecky : 8/6/2017 11:19 pm : link
I believe we are in 7th place as of now.
The Astros were the favorites  
spike : 8/6/2017 11:28 pm : link
now the Dodgers are.

I m surprised the Houston GM did so little at the deadline.
RE: Good news  
spike : 8/6/2017 11:28 pm : link
In comment 13551184 Shecky said:
Quote:
I believe we are in 7th place as of now.


0.5 game out of 5th place
Im never one to root for losses  
ZGiants98 : 8/6/2017 11:45 pm : link
But if the draft is as good as Shecky is saying it will be... I might change my tune. I firmly believe we will be back next year. We lost too many crucial players to injury this year so it's a punt in 2017. That's fine. Look at the Diamondbacks last year? I think they won 69 games. They came roaring back once they got healthy. The Red Sox had some terrible years over the last decade sprinkled in. Hasn't stopped them from competing the majority of the time.

If its a punt and we are going to be back next year, we might as well have an absolute stud to add to the system as well.
The reason Matz is struggling is that he is not thrwing the slider  
Vanzetti : 8/6/2017 11:52 pm : link
That was the difference pitch for him but he can't throw it because of the elbow,

So, he is throwing a lot more curves and changeups and neither pitcher is plus. However, in the long run this will help because the only way to make the secondary stuff consistent is to throw it. But right now he is getting behind with it and then guys are sitting on the fastball.

Lefties that can throw their 100th pitch at 93 mph with good movement don't grow on trees. Matz is potentially still a 2/3 starter if he can stay healthy.


What we do know about Matz is,  
Stufftherun : 8/7/2017 12:12 am : link
he, like his battery mate, has shown flashes but they're both injury prone and wildly inconsistent. There are those who will talk about injuries as if it's just a bu,p in the road or something that just goes away with time but the reality is, he has serious issues as does anyone comng off of TJ surgery. The surgery doesn't guarantee anything in fact the window of effective pitching coming off of such surgery is a small one and is getting smaller with each passing season and injury
He's also just 26.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/7/2017 12:18 am : link
.
Sell low, buy high is almost always  
Eric on Li : 8/7/2017 12:27 am : link
a winning strategy.
Multiple  
DanMetroMan : 8/7/2017 7:46 am : link
teams called about Harvey but the offers were akin to giving him away. This would be the case with Matz as well given his salary. Can't trade him now, teams aren't giving up fair offers.
piece in NYT this AM re. Justin Turner  
ColHowPepper : 8/7/2017 8:38 am : link
and Sandy deciding not to extend him a contract in December 2013 as he was headed down to the Union meetings in San Diego as Mets' player rep. He batted .367 in September of that year as he began working to re-tool his swing. His 2013 salary was $500,000, killer number. Dodgers signed him the next spring for $1mm.
He was devastated at not being tendered a new offer by the Mets that winter, just as he was in September of 2010 (?) after he went 6 for 6 in the final game of the season for Buffalo.

Turner and Murphy in the Mets' infield...nahh!

BBI won't allow NYT hyper links (Gary, what's with that?) so I won't even bother.
Hindsight is 20/20  
spike : 8/7/2017 9:03 am : link
But the Mets are the Mets. We might just as well root for the Browns and the Jets
Please don't sell  
Metnut : 8/7/2017 9:06 am : link
low on Matz or Harvey. The situation isn't great, but a rebound and return to form for these guys in 2018 isn't really that hard to see happening. Like Dan said, it's not like anyone is offering anything good anyway.

If 2018 is a repeat of 2017, then clean house in the front office and bring in new people.
Matz also settled  
Metnut : 8/7/2017 9:07 am : link
down a bit yesterday and IMO didn't look bad against the best team in baseball. Let's see how the kid finishes the season (Harvey too) before burying him.
Lack of forward thinking  
Shecky : 8/7/2017 9:11 am : link
And lack of creativity have been two accurate accusations of this front office. Being upset with and getting rid of Byrd, Turner etc for "being a bad influence" sure looks foolish now that most teams have moved in that same direction. Behind the curve instead of ahead.
..  
Named Later : 8/7/2017 9:12 am : link
I think it's time we dispelled the myth that the Mets are a Pitching savvy organization, built on developing young Stud Arms. They have traded away any decent Pitcher they ever got their hands on....some of them for returns that were downright laughable.

Nolan Ryan for Jim Fregosi
Jon Matlack for Willie Montanez
Roger McDowell for Juan Samuel
Scott Kazmir for the wrong Zambrano
Bobby Jones for whatever ??

They got rid of Tom Seaver -- TWICE !!

They ruined the Generation K arms before any of them got 20 wins with the Mets. Craig Swan, for goodness sakes, was plunked in the ribs by his own catcher trying to throw out a runner at 2B....you can't make this stuff up !!

Cleaning house  
Shecky : 8/7/2017 9:12 am : link
It's not just the draft pick and money, but a total collapse is the only way things will truly get attention as opposed to swept under the injury rug.
RE: ..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/7/2017 9:15 am : link
In comment 13551329 Named Later said:
Quote:
I think it's time we dispelled the myth that the Mets are a Pitching savvy organization, built on developing young Stud Arms. They have traded away any decent Pitcher they ever got their hands on....some of them for returns that were downright laughable.

Nolan Ryan for Jim Fregosi
Jon Matlack for Willie Montanez
Roger McDowell for Juan Samuel
Scott Kazmir for the wrong Zambrano
Bobby Jones for whatever ??

They got rid of Tom Seaver -- TWICE !!

They ruined the Generation K arms before any of them got 20 wins with the Mets. Craig Swan, for goodness sakes, was plunked in the ribs by his own catcher trying to throw out a runner at 2B....you can't make this stuff up !!


The trades are one thing, but I don't see how injuries are really their fault.
The  
DanMetroMan : 8/7/2017 9:20 am : link
farm system is a bigger concern than the 2017 season. Horrendous seasons happen. It sucks but they need to focus on drafting/development. Obviously part of the issue is trades/promotions but just my own personal opinion... they took a step back when DePo left and was never replaced.
The Dodgers farm system is great  
spike : 8/7/2017 9:22 am : link
And kept developing studs, while they inject key FAs with their higher payroll
..  
Named Later : 8/7/2017 9:27 am : link
Some of the Injuries are their fault. Who allowed Thor to bulk up over the winter ?? and WTF happened to Harvey ?? Those Gen K guys were racking up 200 innings....in the Minors !! Where's the developmental approach in that ??

I listened to Ron Darling on the FAN last week, and he said he spotted something in Matz's delivery. Let's get a coach to work on that STAT !!
Can't sustain excellence  
Shecky : 8/7/2017 9:31 am : link
Without sustaining.
And without excellence actually
RE: The  
Metnut : 8/7/2017 9:49 am : link
In comment 13551338 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
farm system is a bigger concern than the 2017 season. Horrendous seasons happen. It sucks but they need to focus on drafting/development. Obviously part of the issue is trades/promotions but just my own personal opinion... they took a step back when DePo left and was never replaced.


The farm system is a very big concern going forward, but there's still enough here to contend again in 2018 with a little bit of luck and some savvy.

Hopefully they land a stud with their top pick this year and have a nice draft since they'll have a ton of allocation money to spend.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/7/2017 9:57 am : link
Another brilliant thread from this OP...

The Mets need a culture/philosophy change in a pretty bad way right now. Starts at the top.
On  
DanMetroMan : 8/7/2017 10:04 am : link
paper the 2016 draft looks like another dud. Wasted so many picks on non-elite college players and they are already on their way to flaming out. It's one thing to top out in AA/AAA but they have multiple reasonably high picks who look DOA.
RE: RE: The  
DanMetroMan : 8/7/2017 10:04 am : link
In comment 13551363 Metnut said:
Quote:
In comment 13551338 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


farm system is a bigger concern than the 2017 season. Horrendous seasons happen. It sucks but they need to focus on drafting/development. Obviously part of the issue is trades/promotions but just my own personal opinion... they took a step back when DePo left and was never replaced.



The farm system is a very big concern going forward, but there's still enough here to contend again in 2018 with a little bit of luck and some savvy.

Hopefully they land a stud with their top pick this year and have a nice draft since they'll have a ton of allocation money to spend.


I agree the current roster with some tweaks can be a contender next season. I'm just saying it gets pretty bleak once Dom comes up. Not being negative just honest.
Oh boy  
Shecky : 8/7/2017 10:15 am : link
All this negativity here today, I'm trying to muster the strength to be the usual contrarian lol

There's a ton of talent on the roster for next year
There's a good bunch of financial flexibility for next season
There's a good bunch of filler talent in the system
As much as everyone from top to bottom underperformed this season, it only takes a few barely overachieving to completely change the outlook.
There's still SOME high ceiling talent in the system. With more coming next year.
They'll be SOME fresh blood this offseason.

But I'll never get over the front office ignoring the biggest cheapest Ada's signing possible a couple years ago and not replacing TC.
BA  
DanMetroMan : 8/7/2017 10:18 am : link
ranked the Mets system 17th... WITH Dom and Rosario for context.
RE: piece in NYT this AM re. Justin Turner  
Rory : 8/7/2017 10:20 am : link
In comment 13551301 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
and Sandy deciding not to extend him a contract in December 2013 as he was headed down to the Union meetings in San Diego as Mets' player rep. He batted .367 in September of that year as he began working to re-tool his swing. His 2013 salary was $500,000, killer number. Dodgers signed him the next spring for $1mm.
He was devastated at not being tendered a new offer by the Mets that winter, just as he was in September of 2010 (?) after he went 6 for 6 in the final game of the season for Buffalo.

Turner and Murphy in the Mets' infield...nahh!

BBI won't allow NYT hyper links (Gary, what's with that?) so I won't even bother.


lol people were absolutely killing both of these guys in 2013 , I actually remember a thread praising Turner not being tendered. An as for Murphy, he could have hit .400 but as soon as he made in a error in the field our douchebag fan base would cry like babies and the POS NY media sucked them off by feeding them what they wanted to hear.

and yet those same fans keep talking on this site...

As for Matz, I'm sure he will re-bound, he has too much talent not to. Personally I'd rather he spend the year working on his secondary pitches an save the elbow. prepare for next year.


RE: BA  
Shecky : 8/7/2017 10:23 am : link
In comment 13551411 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
ranked the Mets system 17th... WITH Dom and Rosario for context.


They'll be top ten in a year+. But this offseason I still say 25th
Praising Turner being non tendered?  
Shecky : 8/7/2017 10:36 am : link
I don't think anyone around here said "glad they cut him". I'm pretty sure it was more of "why'd they cut him?" It made no sense to the average fan to cut him. There were other reasons they moved on - but don't think anyone was glad the team moved on. And there isn't a person in baseball that saw him as a starter yet alone a STAR. So other than revisionist history - hard to understand that criticism.
.  
pjcas18 : 8/7/2017 10:39 am : link
Quote:
Mathew Brownstein‏ @MBrownstein89 26m26 minutes ago

Since July 9 & among SPs, Steven Matz owns the worst ERA (11.03), AVG (.411), OBP (.449), SLG (.700), & WHIP (2.20) in the majors. #Mets
RE: Praising Turner being non tendered?  
pjcas18 : 8/7/2017 10:45 am : link
In comment 13551441 Shecky said:
Quote:
I don't think anyone around here said "glad they cut him". I'm pretty sure it was more of "why'd they cut him?" It made no sense to the average fan to cut him. There were other reasons they moved on - but don't think anyone was glad the team moved on. And there isn't a person in baseball that saw him as a starter yet alone a STAR. So other than revisionist history - hard to understand that criticism.


I hated Turner I was glad they non-tendered him. My hatred of him was irrational because I hated how he looked.

But realistically where were they going to put him?

He was a 28-year old journeyman, who looked like Chris Elliott and they had Wright at 3B, Murphy at 2B, Duda at 1B and Flores waiting in the wings at SS with Tejada (coming off an awful season, but still young) and Turner isn't a SS anyway.

So tender the guy to be a super sub/Joe Mcewing utility guy?

He was never even above average with the Mets.

Hindsight, I was wrong, as wrong as I was on Murphy, but at the time I had no issue with the decision at all.

.  
arcarsenal : 8/7/2017 10:50 am : link
I was fine with letting Turner go at the time. I didn't think much of him.

But as is our luck, as soon as we cut ties with players who are average/good here, they go onto somehow turn into stars elsewhere against all odds.

Can't make it up.
Trading Matz now is a horrible idea  
Jay on the Island : 8/7/2017 11:08 am : link
His value is at an all-time low.
Considering they have been searching for a super sub since  
Shecky : 8/7/2017 11:10 am : link
Yeah, I think they missed the boat on Turner. And I will fully say, if Turner were never let go, he would have never been more than a super sub for the Mets. I don't think he ever would have approached what he became had he reamained a Met.
I'll further expand slightly  
Shecky : 8/7/2017 11:13 am : link
Turner wasn't let go because the team didn't realize or internally scout the "talent" and misjudged it. He wasn't let go to save money. He was let go for other reasons. And the front office badly misjudged the direction hitters were about to embark on.
If  
DanMetroMan : 8/7/2017 11:17 am : link
Dom graduates I'm not even sure who the Mets top 3 prospects are. (Not including Szapucki who will miss 2018) I guess Gimenez, Peterson and one of Nido/Lindsay (disappointing year)/Dunn (awful year). Yikes.
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